VISUAL ART CURATORS IN CONTEXT THINK TANK MARCH 24, …oaag.org/unspoken/think tank transcript.pdf · visual art curators in context think tank march 24, 2004 mercer union ... i thank

THINK TANK – SESSION ONE – TORONTO DRAFT. DO NOT COPY. DO NOT CIRCULATE

VISUAL ART CURATORS IN CONTEXT THINK TANK MARCH 24, 2004 MERCER UNION DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE HAD SPECIAL FUNDING FROM THE MUSEUM ASSISTANCE PROGRAM. WHAT WE WANTED TO DO AS THE ONTARIO ASSOCIATION OF ART GALLERIES, WAS TO FORM A WORKING RELATIONSHIP, WANTED TO GET TO KNOW OUR COLLEAGUE ORGANIZATION THE ARTIST-RUN CENTRES AND COLLECTIVE OF ONTARIO, NOW THEY ARE NATIONAL. JEWELL GOODWYN: NO WE ARE PROVINCIAL. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: YES, THE ARC’S HAVE GONE NATIONAL. WE WANTED TO COME TOGETHER AS PUBLIC GALLERIES AND ARTIST-RUN CENTRES AND CREATE A SPACE FOR DIALOGUE FOR CURATORS ABOUT CURATORIAL PRACTICE. THAT’S BASICALLY OUR OBJECTIVE, TO CREATE A NUMBER OF SPACES FOR DIALOGUE. WE ARE IMAGINING THREE ROUND TABLES -- THAT ARE GOING TO BE ORGANIZED AS SMALL SYMPOSIA FOR 12 TO PERHAPS 14 CURATORS. ONE IN BANFF -- WE TALKED TO ANTHONY KIENDL ABOUT SITUATING A CONVERSATION IN BANFF WHICH WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO -- ONE WILL BE IN TORONTO, AND ONE IN MONTREAL. WE ASKED SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUE CURATORS, LIZ WYLIE AND SARAH QUINTON, JENIFER PAPARARO AND PAUL COUILLARD, TO JOIN US AS THE CONTENT COMMITTEE. LITERALLY THAT’S AS FAR AS WE WANT TO IMPOSE ON THE PROCESS. WE JUST WANTED TO CREATE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR CURATORS TO COME TOGETHER AND HAVE AN EXTENDED CONVERSATION. WE IMAGINE THREE OF THEM. AND WHAT WE ARE DOING TONIGHT IS COMING OUT OF THE CONTENT COMMITTEE SAYING THEY WANTED TO HAVE A THINK TANK WITH INVITATIONS GOING TO CURATORS TO FORMULATE PROPOSALS OR IDEAS FOR DISCUSSION, DISCRETE IDEAS FOR THESE THREE DIFFERENT SETTINGS AND THESE THREE DIFFERENT SITUATIONS. THAT’S WHERE WE ARE TONIGHT. I THANK JEWELL FOR BEING A WILLING PARTNER, ARCCO WANTING TO COME IN AND TALK. AND I THANK THE CONTENT COMMITTEE, LIZ, SARAH, JENIFER AND PAUL FOR DIRECTING THE CONVERSATION FROM HERE. JEWELL GOODWYN: LIKEWISE, ARCCO WAS INVITED BY OAAG AND AS A SISTER OF VISUAL ARTS IN ONTARIO IS A CREATIVE AND WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY AND A CREATIVE OPPORTUNITY FOR INDEPENDENT CURATORS WHO WORK WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF ARTIST RUN CENTRES AND INDEPENDENT CURATORS WHO WORK IN THE CONTEXT OF PUBLIC ART GALLERIES, AS WELL AS INSTITUTIONAL CURATORS, TO HAVE THIS TIME TOGETHER.

Confidential Page 1 of 1 6/7/2004 Created by Pamela Kelly - TRANSCRIBER


I’D LIKE TO DO ONE THING, I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE EVERYONE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO HAVE A QUICK STOP OFF, AND GO AROUND THE TABLE. JENIFER IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT YOUR IDEA FOR THE THINK TANK, SINCE THIS IDEA CAME FROM JENIFER. SO IF EVERYONE WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE THEMSELVES FIRST. I’M JENIFER PAPARARO, PROGRAM DIRECTOR AT MERCER AND PART OF INSTANT COFFEE. I’M KIM SIMON, PROGRAM COORDINATOR AT GALLERY TPW. MARNIE FLEMING, CURATOR OF CONTEMPORARY ART AT OAKVILLE GALLERIES. SUZANNE CARTE, AT THE POWER PLANT, NOW PROJECT COORDINATOR FOR THIS INITIATIVE. MARGOT BERRILL, PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT AND PUBLIC PROGRAMS COORDINATOR FOR OAAG. PHILIP MONK, DIRECTOR OF THE ART GALLERY OF YORK UNIVERSTIY CORRINA GHAZNAVI, I’M AN INDEPENDENT CRITICAL CURATOR. PAUL COUILLARD, I'M THE PERFORMANCE CURATOR OF FADO PERFORMANCE INC. EILEEN SOMMERMAN, INDEPENDENT CURATOR. LIZ WYLIE, I’M THE CURATOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO ARTS CENTRE. ANTHONY KIENDL, I’M THE DIRECTOR OF WALTER PHILLIPS GALLERY AT THE BANFF CENTER AND I RUN SOMETHING CALLED THE BANFF INTERNATIONAL CURATORIAL INSTITUTE. I’M SARAH QUINTON, I’M THE CONTEMPORARY CURATOR AT THE TEXTILE MUSEUM OF CANADA. I’M ALSO THE EXHIBITIONS MANAGER. I’M DEMETRA AT OAAG. JEWELL at ARCCO.



NATALIE DE VITO AT MERCER UNION. I’M DAVE KEMP, I’M THE TECHNICAL COORDINATOR FOR THIS SYMPOSIUM. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE ARE RECORDING THIS EVENING . THE MICROPHONES ARE FOR THE PURPOSES OF… RECORDING PURPOSES, NOT GOING TO AMPLIFY THE CONVERSATION SO PLEASE SPEAK UP. JENIFER PAPARARO: I GUESS WE’LL START. I THINK DEMETRA HAS GIVEN AN IDEA OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DESIGN, IT'S GOING TO BE THREE SPECIFIC ROUND TABLES (AS WE ARE CALLING THEM), AND WE WOULD LIKE TO DEVELOP THEMATICS, OR JUST A WAY TO FRAME EACH ONE SO WE CAN DIRECT THE PAPERS AND THE PEOPLE THAT WE INVITE FOR THE SPECIFIC ROUND TABLES. IN THE END WE’D LIKE TO HAVE PEOPLE PRESENT PAPERS AT THESE ROUND TABLES, THEN THEY WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE IN A PUBLICATION. SO FAR THE ROUND TABLES WILL BE CLOSED TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INVITED TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THE PAPERS BEFOREHAND AND THEN THEY WILL BE PUBLISHED LATER ALONG WITH A CURATORIAL HANDBOOK. I THINK THE REASON WHY OAAG WANTED TO FOCUS ON CANADIAN CURATORS, BECAUSE THERE IS NO REAL PLACE FOR CURATORS TO MEET OTHER THAN THE BANFF INSTITUTE. TRYING TO FOCUS ON THAT DIALOGUE I, AND WE AS THE CONTENT COMMITTEE, WE WERE HOPING TO GET TIGHT IDEAS OF WHAT WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT AS CURATORS AND WHAT WE THINK WOULD FURTHER OUR OWN PRACTICES AND WE WOULD LIKE TO EXTEND THAT TO EVERYONE HERE AND OPEN THAT DISCUSSION AND IN THE END HOPEFULLY THAT WILL TAILOR TOPICS FOR THE ROUNDTABLE SPECIFICALLY. I’LL START THE PROCESS SAYING WHAT MY IDEAS ARE, WHAT MY INTENT WOULD BE. WHY WE ARE HERE IS BECAUSE I DON’T KNOW HOW WE SHOULD STRUCTURE THESE THINGS, I AM HOPING THAT WOULD COME OUT TONIGHT. I DO HAVE IDEAS ABOUT WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT OR HOW I WOULD LIKE IT TO BE DIRECTED. I HAVE A WRITTEN A THING THAT I WON’T READ, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE TORTUOUS, BUT I’LL TALK ABOUT THE POSITION OF “CURATOR”, AND THE PLACE AS CURATOR AND ITS CRITICAL DEBATE. THE CRITIQUE OF THE MUSEUM STARTED IN THE MID 70’S WITH BRIAN O’DOHERTY. I THINK THAT CONVERSATION HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME. IN A WAY, THAT CRITIQUE, I THINK, HAS FORMED THE POSITION OF THE CONTEMPORARY CURATOR TODAY AND IRONICALLY PUT THE CONTEMPORARY CURATOR AT THE FOREFRONT OF THAT CRITIQUE SO ALL OF A SUDDEN THIS



PRACTICE OF CURATION IS TAKING PLACE AT THE MUSEUM OR INSTITUTION AS CRITIQUE IT’S BECOME THE CURATORIAL POSITION AS SUCH. MY PRACTICE IN GENERAL HAS TENDED TO LOOKED TOWARDS CURATION AS CRITIQUE. I’M ALWAYS INTERESTED IN INCORPORATING THAT INTO THE PRACTICE, BUT I DO GET WORRIED ABOUT THAT IT BECOMING SOLELY ABOUT THAT. A RECENT EXAMPLE I CAN THINK OF IS JANS HOFFMAN’S WHOSE PRACTICE IS ABOUT CURATORIAL CRITIQUE, SO MUCH SO THAT SOMETIMES I THINK THE WORK GETS EXHUMED BY THE CURATION OR THERE’S NO ART WORK AT ALL, IT’S JUST CURATORIAL PRACTICE WITHIN THAT. I THINK THAT CAN INFORM IT, AND I DON’T THINK THAT’S WHOLLY UNINTERESTING, BUT I THINK IT’S A BIT OF A PROBLEMATIC TO BE ABOUT THAT. BUT IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO TALK ABOUT PRACTICES THAT IMPLICITLY USE CURATION AS, ARE CRITIQUING CURATORIAL MODELS, OR OFFERING A MODEL, BUT YET THE WORK DOESN’T GET NECESSARILY SUBSUMED UNDERNEATH THAT PRACTICE. FOR ME, I’M NOT SO INTERESTED IN DEFINING WHAT CURATORIAL PRACTICE IS, IN GENERAL, SPECIFICALLY, OR RIGIDLY. WE CAN ASSUME THAT WE HAVE SOME SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT MEANS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO PUT FORWARD…I WANT TO ASK HARD QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT IS CURATORIAL PRACTICE. IN TERMS OF WHAT I MEAN ABOUT HARD QUESTIONS IS SOMETHING THAT'S MORE PHILOSOPHICAL THAN SOCIOLOGICAL, POTENTIALLY, OR MORE PHILOSOPHICAL THAN PRACTICAL. SOMETHING THAT ADDRESSES QUESTIONS LIKE WHY DO WE BELIEVE IN THE VALUE OF ART PRODUCTION? WHY DO WE THINK THESE CURATORIAL MODELS ARE THE BEST WAY TO CONVEY COMMUNICATION? ARE WE COMMUNICATING THROUGH THESE THINGS? QUESTIONS LIKE THAT, INSTEAD OF JUST PRESENTING A SERIES OF MODELS OR EXAMPLES. THAT'S NOT WHAT I DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN. SOMETHING THAT DOESN’T ISN’T JUST AT A ROUND TABLE WHERE EVERYONE JUST SHOWS THEIR STUFF, WHERE WE CAN ACTUALLY TALK ABOUT DEEPER ISSUES AND WHAT ARE THOSE CONCERNS? THAT'S WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT THERE. WHAT ARE THE HARD QUESTIONS? WHAT ARE YOU ANSWERING OR ASKING THROUGH YOUR CURATORIAL PRACTICES? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I HAVE A QUESTION. WHEN YOU’RE SPEAKING ABOUT CURATORIAL PRACTICE AS BEING CRITIQUE, WHEN YOU ARE SPEAKING ABOUT JANS HOFFMAN, ARE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT THE CURATORIAL PRACTICES AS BEING A CRITIQUE OF THE WORK WITHIN THE CURATORIAL PRACTICE AND THAT'S HOW YOU SEE YOUR CURATORIAL PRACTICE UNDERLINED BY IT BEING A CRITIQUE OF THE



WORK, OR IT ACTUALLY BEING UNDERLINED BY A CRITIQUE OF CURATORIAL PRACTICE. JENIFER PAPARARO: IT’S THE LATTER. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: BECAUSE I WAS THINKING ABOUT HIS RECENT PROJECT, THAT THE NEXT CURATOR OF DOCUMENTA SHOULD BE AN ARTIST. BUT I DIDN’T REALIZE THAT HE ALWAYS, HIS PRACTICE IS ALWAYS UNDERLINED BY CRITIQUING CURATORIAL PRACTICE? JENIFER PAPARARO: IN GENERAL. I DON’T KNOW. MAYBE HE’S DONE STUFF OUTSIDE THE STUFF I’VE BEEN INTRODUCED TO… IT'S GENERALLY TENDS TO ALWAYS TAKE THE PRACTICE OF CURATION AS PART OF THE EXHIBITION. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: ISN’T THAT INSIDIOUS, THE WHOLE IDEA OF….IT’S INTERESTING THAT HE’S QUESTIONING THAT AND DOING THAT, BUT IT’S ODD THAT IT FOCUSES ON CURATORIAL PRACTICE, WHEN IN FACT IT’S REALLY NARCISSISTIC, THOUGH. JENIFER PAPARARO: BUT I THINK HE IS TRYING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS IN TERMS OF; HOW DOES WORK GET EXHIBITED? HOW DOES THE CURATORIAL ROLE DOMINATE AND PUT FORWARD A CERTAIN AESTHETIC? I THINK THAT HE WAS TRYING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS BUT, IT DOES BECOME PROBLEMATIC AND INSIDIOUS AND HOW FAR DO YOU TAKE THAT IF ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU’RE NOT RESPONDING TO THE ART WORK, BUT YOU ARE JUST RESPONDING TO YOUR OWN PRACTICE. KIM SIMON: I HAVE A QUESTION. THIS STEPS BACK A BIT, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE FROM THE SYMPOSIUM? I’M NOT SURE IF I’M HERE AS SOMEBODY WHO PROGRAMS FOR AN ARTIST-RUN CENTRE, I ALSO DO INDEPENDENT CURATING, WHICH I CONSIDER VERY DIFFERENT FROM MY PRACTICE AS THE PERSON AT TPW. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE ARE NOT HERE TO TALK ABOUT PROGRAMMING. PHILIP MONK: WELL, YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT COHORT YOU BELONG TO! KIM SIMON: I DO CONSIDER WHAT I DO FOR THE ARTIST-RUN CENTRE CURATING AND I DO CONSIDER WHAT WE ARE DO AS A COMMITTEE CURATING. DIFFERENT QUESTIONS COME UP FOR ME THERE THAN THEY DO FOR MY INDEPENDENT PRACTICE THAN FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS A FULL TIME JOB AT AN EXHIBITING INSTITUTION. SO WHAT I AM TRYING TO ASK IS, IS YOUR ANGLE TO HAVE THESE ALL THESE DIFFERENT TYPES OF PRACTICES COME INTO CONVERSATION? AND IF THEY ARE, THEN THAT NEEDS TO BE



CONSIDERED. WE NEED TO FIND COMMON GROUND THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE ABLE TO RESPOND TO. I ASSUME THAT WE ARE NOT TRYING TO COME UP WITH ONE MODEL OF CURATING THAT WE ALL AGREE ON. WE'RE TRYING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT DIFFERENT PRACTICES OF CURATING. THOSE ARE SOME OF MY IMMEDIATE QUESTIONS. I DO NOT KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN WHEN TALKING ABOUT WHERE MY INTERESTS ARE VAST AND I OCCUPY ALL THESE POSITIONS AND EVERYONE ELSE DOES TOO. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I’M NOT IMAGINING… UM, I'M IMAGINING THAT PEOPLE ARE WANTING TO COME TOGETHER BECAUSE THE THEMATIC OR PROPOSAL IS OF CRITICAL INTEREST TO THEM. IN OAAG’S CASE, ARCCO IS ABOUT ARTIST-RUN CENTERS WHICH IS A FORM OF INSTITUTION WHICH PERHAPS DEVELOPED IN RESPONSE TO PUBLIC ART GALLERIES. I AM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN PUBLIC ART GALLERIES BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT OAAG'S ABOUT. WE’D LIKE TO SEE PUBLIC ART GALLERY CURATORS INVOLVED. THAT’S ALL. I THINK THAT WE WOULD BE PROPOSING TO BRING GROUPS TOGETHER FOR TWO DAYS AT LEAST AND INVITE THEM, ASKING THEM TO THE TABLE TO CONSIDER A THEMATIC WITH NEW CONTENT AND CENTRE THAT CONTENT ON THEIR OWN PRACTICE. THEN WHATEVER HAPPENS DURING THE TWO DAYS TAKES ON A LIFE OF IT’S OWN. IT HAS TO DO WITH THE PEOPLE AROUND THE TABLE AND IT HAS TO DO WITH THEIR INTRINSIC INTEREST IN AN IDEA TO BE DISCUSSED. SO IT COULD BE SOMETHING THAT YOU FEEL IS CENTRAL TO YOUR PRACTICE AS A CURATOR WHETHER YOU ARE IN AN INSTITUTIONAL SETTING OR PROCEEDING INDEPENDENTLY, BUT WE WOULD BE WANTING TO HEAR YOU DEFINE OR CLARIFY THAT YOURSELF. WE TALKED ABOUT A FEW GOALS. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS WILL CLARIFY THINKGS OR NOT. IN OUR TWO PREVIOUS CONVERSATIONS CENTERING THE ROUND TABLES ON CURATORIAL DISCOURSE, THAT ALREADY MIGHT BE TOO SPECIFIC. WE WANTED TO BE SPECIFIC ABOUT A DEFINITION FOR CURATORIAL PRACTICE OR MODEL, BUT NOT DEFINING ONE MODEL. PARTICULARLY, WE WANTED TO IDENTIFY VITAL THEMES, POSE QUESTIONS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO A DEFINITION OF THE PRACTICE, SO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CANONICITY IN SOME SENSE; WE’RE TALKING ABOUT MOVING IDEAS FORWARD AND EXCHANGING IDEAS BETWEEN GENERATIONS AND THEN CREATING A RECORD OF THOSE IDEAS. WE WANTED to ADDRESS DIFFERENT CURATORIAL MODELS, IN WHATEVER WAY. WE WANTED TO CREATE THESE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE PEOPLE WHO COME TO THE TABLE FELT THEIR CONTRIBUTION HAS BEEN RECEIVED AS VALUABLE AND THAT THEY HAVE GAINED BY THEIR PARTICIPATION IN THE CONVERSATION, WHATEVER THEIR RANGE OF EXPERIENCE IN TERMS OF CURATORIAL PRACTICE. THE IDEA OF IT MENTORING A CURATORIAL DISCOURSE - WE ARE A TRAINING ORGANIZATION, IT’S JUST A BALD DESCRIPTION OF WHAT WE DO BY



BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER OF DIFFERENT GENERATIONS, PRACTICE, TOGETHER AT THE SAME TABLE. BASICALLY WE JUST WANT TO RECORD OR CREATE A SITUATION WHERE WE ARE CAPTURING CURATORS SAYING WHAT THEY FEEL THEIR PRACTICE IS ABOUT, THEN TO CARRY THAT FORWARD IN ANOTHER MEDIA, SO PEOPLE CAN HAVE ACCESS TO IT OUTSIDE OF THE SYMPOSIUM LATER ON IN SOME FORM. KIM SIMON: I GUESS THAT I AM JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, TAKING THE EXAMPLE OF THE INSTITUTIONAL CRITIQUE, CURATING AS A PRACTICE OF INSTITUTIONAL CRITIQUE. CANADA HAS A GREAT HISTORY AND A FABULOUS GROUP OF PRACTITIONERS, INDEPENDENT CURATORS, WHO ARE ABLE TO DO THAT. WHEN I HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO INDEPENDENT CURATING, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH MERCER, I TREATED IT MORE AS, I WAS AN INVITED ARTIST AND I WAS TRYING STUFF OUT, STUFF THAT I WOULD NEVER TRY OUT AT TPW (FOR EXAMPLE), OR WORKING WITH OAKVILLE GALLERIES, I APPROACH THAT CURATING REALLY DIFFERENTLY. I’M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT TO DETERMINE MY INTEREST AS A CURATOR, IF I WAS INVITED TO THE SYMPOSUIM, IT WOULD NOT ONLY TO HAVE A MEETING WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE SAME POSITION THAT I DO TO FIND A WAY THAT WE CAN TALK ABOUT CRITICAL CURATING, BUT FIGURE OUT WHAT THE FOCUSED QUESTIONS WOULD BE THAT WE CAN ALL CONTRIBUTE AND ALL HAVE PERSPECTIVE ON THAT. I’M IMAGINING THAT IF I HAD A FULL TIME JOB AT A PUBLIC GALLERY, THE FRAMES AND RESTRAINTS AND OPPORTUNITIES IN THAT SITUATION FOR WHAT CRITICAL CURATING WOULD BE ARE DIFFERENT THAN HOW I DEVELOP PROGRAMS AT TPW OVER TWO YEARS, OR ONE SHOW AT MERCER OR OAKVILLE AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: SO, IT'S CLEAR THAT CURATING IS VERY PLURALIST. KIM SIMON: MY FEAR IS THAT IF YOU BRING DIVERSE PEOPLE TOGETHER WHO HAVE NO COMMON LANGUAGE, YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING BUT REPORT TO EACH OTHER. HOW CAN WE CHALLENGE EACH OTHER AND GET SOMETHING FROM EACH OTHER? JENIFER PAPARARO: THAT’S WHY WE WANT TO MEET HERE SO WE DON’T FALL INTO A GENERAL THEMATIC WHERE THAT HAPPENS, WHERE PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE ADDRESSED, SOMETHING LIKE, SAY, ARTIST AS CURATOR, WHICH IS INTERESTING BUT I THINK IS TOO GENERAL, AND SOMETHING CAN GET LOST. SO IF WE WANT TO LOOK AT A PROBLEM LIKE THAT, OR A TOPIC LIKE THAT, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON SOMETHING SPECIFIC SO WE HAVE MORE ACCESS AND CAN CREATE A CRITICALITY BESIDES A SHOWING OF MODELS.



KIM SIMON: THAT’S TOUGH PROJECT. I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE QUESTIONS ARE YET, THAT WOULD ALSO US TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION. PAUL COUILLARD: WHAT ARE THE BURING QUESTIONS THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I THINK IT’S INTERESTING WHAT JENIFER SAID, THE SUGGESTION, THE CRITIQUE FORMED THE POSITION OF THE CURATOR. CAN THAT PROCEED WITHOUT DISCUSSION? PHILIP MONK: I THINK THAT’S EASY TO HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T SHARE A POSITION, BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE CHALLENGE COMES FORTH. BECAUSE I CHALLENGE JENIFER! [LAUGH] NO I DON’T KNOW WHETHER TO SPEAK FROM MY PRACTICAL COHORT POINT OF VIEW OR MY THEORETICAL COUNTER POINT OF VIEW, BUT -- PAUL COUILLARD: LET’S HEAR THEM BOTH. PHILIP MONK: --BUT WE USE THIS WORD “CURATORIAL PRACTICE” VERY EASILY WITHOUT…DO WE KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? IT IS A WORD THAT I DON’T LIKE TO USE VERY MUCH. BUT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CURATORIAL PRACTICE WE ASSUME THAT A PRACTICE IS THEORIZABLE. AND I’M NOT CERTAIN WHETHER THAT’S THE CASE. SO WHEN I HEAR YOU SAY THAT CURATING IS ABOUT THE CRITIQUE OF THE INSTITUTION, I THINK, WELL, NOT IN MY CASE. JENIFER PAPARARO: NO, I WAS SAYING THAT IN PARTICULAR TO MY INTERESTS. PHILIP MONK: IT’S A LIMITED POINT OF VIEW OF WHAT CURATING IS. IT IS FINE AS ONE SORT OF CURATING BUT IT’S A SORT OF CURATING THAT PRESUMES WHAT CURATORIAL PRACTICE IS. I DON’T NECESSARILY THINK THAT CURATORIAL PRACTICE CAN BE THEORIZED. I THINK THERE HAS TO BE AN EFFORT TO THEORIZE IT, BUT I DON’T THINK THAT IT CAN BE GIVEN BEFORE HAND. I THINK SUCH A POSITION THAT ASSUMES THAT THERE IS A THEORIZABLE POSITION ACTS FROM AN ACADEMIC POINT OF VIEW. SO WHEN I HEAR THAT CURATING IS ABOUT INSTITUTIONAL CRITIQUE, I FEEL, OKAY, THIS IS AN ACADEMIC POSITION. I FEEL THAT THAT SORT OF CURATING HAS COME OUT OF SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN ACADEMICALLY RECEIVED, AND HAS NOT NECESSARILY BEGUN TO THEORIZE ITS OWN PRACTICE FROM PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE. I THINK AS CURATORS, WE HAVE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE CALLED A PRACTICE, BUT WE DON’T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. WHEN I STARTED CURATING, THERE WERE



HARDLY ANY EXAMPLES OF CURATORS, AND THE ONES THAT THERE WERE ONE DIDN’T NECESSARILY WANT TO FOLLOW. THERE WERE NO INSTITUTES THAT TEACH CURATING; I DON’T THINK THAT’S NECESSARILY A GOOD THING FOR CURATING. I THINK ONE LEARNS ONE’S PRACTICE BY DOING, AND THEN OBSERVING PERIODICALLY, (WHEN CURATORS HAVE TIME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY DO) THEY BEGIN TO THEORIZE TO A DEGREE WHAT THE PRACTICE IS BY BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND IT. SO THE THEORETICAL TERMS OF CURATING (I FEEL) CAN ONLY COME OUT OF THE OBSERVATION OF ONE'S OWN PRACTICE, WHICH IS NOT GIVEN BEFOREHAND, BUT IS ONLY EXPERIENCED. I COULDN’T DO THAT FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS. I'M NOT SAYING THAT IT CANNOT BE DONE. I DO THIS PERIODICALLY (THEORIZE MY PRACTICE), BUT IT IS NOT ACCORDING TO THOSE PRE-GIVEN TERMS. WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF MODELS THAT ARE PRE-GIVEN AND THE MODEL OF THEORY AND THE MODEL OF CRITIQUE ARE ALMOST PRE-GIVEN MODELS THAT DON’T NECESSARY APPLY TO WHAT MOST INDIVIDUALS PRACTICALLY DO WHEN THEY CURATE IN VARIOUS SORTS OF INSTITUTIONS. AND VARIOUS INSTITUTIONS DETERMINE WHAT THE CURATORIAL PRACTICE IS GOING TO BE. SOME PLACE LIKE OAKVILLE IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM AGYU, AND IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MERCER UNION. JENIFER PAPARARO: I DIDN’T SAY THAT CURATING WAS INSTITUTIONAL CRITIQUE; IT COMES OUT OF THAT HISTORY. PHILIP MONK: I CHALLENGE THAT AS WELL. JENIFER PAPARARO: I PERCEIVE IT AS SUCH. I CAN SEE THAT THE DEFINITION OF THE CURATOR, OR EVEN THE RISE IN THE NOTION OF THE CURATOR AND THE POPULARITY OF THE CURATOR, AS A POSITION IN ITSELF, HAS COME OUT OF THE CRITIQUE OF THE INSTITUTION AND NOW THE CURATOR IS IN THAT POSITION. I’M NOT SAYING THAT CURATING ITSELF ALWAYS IS ABOUT A CRITIQUE OF ITSELF. IT INTERESTS ME BUT I FIND IT PROBLEMATIC IF IT’S ONLY ABOUT THAT THEN IT’S A PROBLEM, BECAUSE THEN WE’RE NOT ADDRESSING THE LARGER QUESTIONS, WHAT ARE WE DOING, HOW ARE WE RESPONDING TO THE WORK AND WHAT ARE WE PUTTING FORWARD? I THINK IT IS UNFAIR TO SAY THAT YOU CAN’T CREATE YOUR OWN PRACTICE. PHILIP MONK: SORRY, I DIDN’T SAY THAT YOU CAN'T CRITIQUE YOUR OWN PRACTICE OR THEORIZE YOUR PRACTICE. IT TAKES THE PRACTICE FIRST. IT IMPLIES SOME SORT OF DOING FIRST BEFORE YOU OBSERVE WHAT YOU’RE DOING.



KIM SIMON: DO YOU SUPPORT ONE OF THE GOALS OF THIS PROJECT BEING A HANDBOOK FOR YOUNG CURATORS, WHICH I UNDERSTAND IS ONE OF THE GOALS OF OAAG? PHILIP MONK: IT DEPENDS HOW IT’S CONCEIVED. AS A PRACTICAL MANUAL, OR AS A THEORETICAL MANUAL? SARAH QUINTON: THAT’S SORT OF PUTTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE. WHAT THIS PUBLICATION IS CALLED A HANDBOOK. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: IT DOESN’T EXIST YET BECAUSE THERE’S NO ACTUAL FUNDING FOR THE BOOK. KIM SIMON: IT DOES CHANGE THE WAY THAT I’M THINKING ABOUT THINGS, IF I’M THINKING ABOUT A CONVERSATION THAT IS FOR SOME SORT OF PEDAGOGICAL TOOL, OR SOME MENTORING SITUATION, WHERE YOU HOOK UP YOUNG CURATORS, WITH MORE ESTABLISHED CURATORS. OR IS IT JUST THE EXPERIENCE OF HAVING A CONVERSATION? IT DOES ACTUALLY SHIFT. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I THINK WE ARE PROPOSING A PEDAGOGICAL SITUATION. THAT IS OUR PROPOSAL. WE ARE PUTTING PEOPLE TOGETHER WHO PRACTICE IN SIMILAR INSTITUTIONS OR PRACTICE IN CONTEMPORARY ART. SARAH IS CROSSING MEDIA, BUT ALL LIVING IN THE SAME TIME IN THIS LOCALE. WE MIGHT TRY TO CROSS REGIONAL BOUNDARIES. THERE HAVE BEEN SOME DISCUSSIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY CRITICAL DISCOURSE IN THE LAST MONTH, A PANEL IN VANCOUVER, THERE HAVE BEEN THREE IN TORONTO, THERE WAS ONE IN GUELPH, A TALK IN GUELPH LAST WEEK, SO THE IDEA THAT CRITICAL DISCOURSE AS BEING SOMEHOW DIFFERENT FROM CURATORIAL DISCOURSE - I’D BE INTERESTED IN HEARING THE DIFFERENCE. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: YOU SAID THAT MAYBE IT’S NOT NECESSARY TO DEFINE WHAT CURATORIAL PRACTICE OR CURATING IS, BUT I THINK IT REALLY IS. I THINK (MAYBE THIS IS BEING IDEALISTIC) THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS, IS TO LIBERATE AND EMPOWER CURATORIAL PRACTICE. THAT'S WHAT I WOULD THINK. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: THOSE ARE PRETTY HIGH IDEALS, BUT WE CERTAINLY WANT TO SUPPORT IT. WE WANT TO CREATE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR A DISCUSSION TO PROCEED ALONG ITS OWN NATURAL TRAJECTORY THAT IS ACTUALLY FREE OF SOME OF THE PRESSURES OF THE INSTITUTION, JUST BY REMOVING PEOPLE FROM THEIR DAY-TO-DAY CIRCUMSTANCE. Confidential Page 10 of 10 6/7/2004 Created by Pamela Kelly - TRANSCRIBER


EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I JUST THINK CURATING IS ABOUT ART. OF COURSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO CRITIQUE YOUR PRACTICE BUT I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR CURATING SHOULD BE NECESSARILY ABOUT THE CRITIQUE. CURATING TO ME SEEMS TO BE ABOUT ARTWORK. PAUL COUILLARD: FOR ME, IT’S A QUESTION OF URGENCY. IN PERFORMANCE ART, FRANKLY THERE ARE NO CURATORS. I FEEL LIKE I’M WAY IN SOME META-TERRITORY ALL BY MYSELF, AS SOMEONE WHO CURATES PERFORMANCE ART. PERFORMANCE ART GETS PROGRAMMED, NOT CURATED, FOR THE MOST PART. I’M LOOKING FOR COLLEAGUES IN OTHER DISCIPLINES TO ORGANIZE THAT, TO ORGANIZE MY THINKING AROUND TRYING TO CURATE A PRACTICE THAT TRADITIONALLY IS NOT BEING CURATED. FOR ME THERE IS AN URGENCY. THERE’S A CRITIQUE AROUND PROGRAMMING VERSES CURATION, I SUPPOSE, BUT IT HAS MORE TO DO WITH URGENCY. I’M WORKING IN A FORM, AND I AM LOOKING FOR COLLEAGUES AND I HAVE TO LOOK OUTSIDE MY OWN DISCIPLINE TO DO IT. SOME QUESTIONS THAT ARE SUGGESTED THAT COULD BE PROVOCATIVE. FOR EXAMPLE, HOW WOULD YOU CURATE OR WHAT WOULD YOU CURATE IF YOU WEREN'T CONSTRAINED BY THE SHACKLES of YOUR INSTITUTION? THERE’S A KIND OF THEORIZING TO BE DONE BASED ON WHERE WE END UP. I CREATED MY OWN ARTIST-RUN CENTRE TO DO WHAT I DO. I DIDN’T GO INTO AN INSTITUTION TO DO IT. SO TO THAT EXTENT, I THEORIZED BECAUSE I HAD TO GET TO THE POINT OF DOING, SO I CHOSE TO DO THIS, AND NOT THAT. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? PHILIP? BECAUSE YOU WERE SAYING YOU WERE UNCERTAIN ABOUT THE IDEA OF THEORIZING. PHILIP MONK: I’M NOT OPPOSED TO THEORIZATION AND I'M NOT OPPOSED TO HAVING TO POSIT SOMETHING IN AN IDEAL WAY, OR IN OTHER WORDS THEORETICAL WAY, IN ORDER TO PROVIDE THE BASIS FOR YOU DOING IT, BECAUSE IT’S NOT BEING DONE. I THINK I AGREE WITH EILEEN, IT’S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND [WHAT] THE OBJECT OF CURATING IS. I FEEL THAT THE OBJECT OF CURATING IS NOT THE INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURE IN WHICH THE CURATOR WORKS, INHABITS, I BELIEVE THAT WE ALL WORK OUT OF CONVENTIONS. FOR MYSELF, I DON'T THINK IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO THINK WHAT WOULD IT MEAN TO CURATE OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF YOUR INSTITUTION? THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME BECAUSE CURATING IS INSTITUTIONALLY BOUND AND IT’S BETTER TO WORK AGAINST RESISTANCES, AND THEN FIND YOUR PRACTICES WITHIN THESE INSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORKS. SHOULD THE FRAMEWORKS BE CRITICIZED? YES, BUT SHOULD THAT BE THE SUBJECT OF CURATING? NO. I DON’T THINK SO. I BELIEVE CURATING IS ABOUT THAT CONFRONTATION WITH THE WORK OF ART, AND THE WAY ONE WORKS WITH WORKS OF ART IN THE PRACTICE EXEMPLIFIES WHAT YOUR THEORY IS, IT’S THERE IN



THE PRESENTATION OF ARTWORKS, CURATING IS ABOUT PRESENTATION OF ART WORK. IT’S NOT ABOUT THE PRESENTATION OF ITSELF. I THINK THAT’S AN ACADEMIC TAKE ON CURATING. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE RETURN TO USING MODELS FROM THE 60S AND 70S, TO CRITIQUE AGAIN THE 60S, NOT NECESSARILY THE 70S. THAT’S ANOTHER ACADEMIC FORMATION OF LOOKING AT MODELS THAT PREEXIST AS POSSIBLE MODELS TO RIP OFF, TO THE WORK SOMEBODY ELSE HAS DONE, RATHER THAN SITUATE YOURSELF. RATHER THAN SITUATE YOURSELF IN THE PRESENT, IN YOUR MOMENT, THE PRINCIPLES THAT ARE CREATING YOUR ACTIONS AND PRACTICE. THEREFORE THEORY THAT COMES FROM THE ANALYSIS OF PRACTICE. IT DOESN’T COME BEFORE HAND OR FROM ANOTHER PERIOD. I FEEL LIKE CRITIQUE COMES FROM ANOTHER PERIOD IT DOESN'T ADDRESS YOUR NEEDS. PAUL COUILLARD: HOW WOULD PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT A GENERAL QUESTION, LIKE WHAT ARE THE OBJECTS Of CURATION? IS THAT TOO GENERAL A QUESTION TO HAVE A DISCUSSION AROUND? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: WHY DO YOU CURATE? I THINK THAT’S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION TO ANSWER. JENIFER PAPARARO: OR HOW DO YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU DO? THAT'S WHAT WE WANT TO DO. THAT'S THE PROBLEMATIC WE'RE ADDRESSING. HOW DO WE GET PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT IT, BRING TOGETHER IN A MANNER THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO GAIN FROM OTHERS IDEAS, AND PRESENT THEIR OWN. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I THINK ONE OF THE WAYS YOU CAN DO IS TO ASK THE QUESTION. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ASKING QUESTIONS IT BECOMES ABSTRACTED, SO IF YOU JUST ASK WHY DO YOU CURATE? IF YOU CAN ANSWER THAT, THAT’S A STEP TOWARD FIGURING OUT WHAT CURATING IS. WHY DO YOU DO IT? GOOD QUESTION TO ASK. MAYBE IT’S JUST A JOB. JEWELL GOODWYN: NOT AN EASY ONE. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I DO THINK IT’S INTERESTING TO… I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW THIS WOULD BE WHEN YOU’RE EMBARKING IN A FIELD WHERE THERE AREN’T USEFUL EXAMPLES, OR PRIOR PRACTICE THAT’S OF INTEREST, OR INTERESTING PROJECTS TO LOOK AT, AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF IDEAS. BUT, IF YOU’RE 40 YEARS DOWN THE LINE, LOOKING BACK AT THE 60S, AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE 40 YEARS OF EXHIBITIONS THAT OTHERS HAVE DONE, AND ART WORK THAT IN SOME SENSE MAY EVEN ANSWER EXHIBITIONS OR PROPOSALS BY CURATORS, OR RESPONDING TO CURATORIAL PROPOSALS, THERE IS A PERIOD OF GETTING TO KNOW THE HISTORY



OF WHAT’S HAPPENED BEFORE, WHETHER IT IS INSTITUTIONAL OR NOT, OR HOWEVER YOU TRACE THAT THROUGH. I’M NOT A CURATOR, BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO KNOW WHAT MAKES SOMEONE CHOOSE TO PUT TOGETHER AN EXHIBITION. AT WHAT POINT DOES IT COME TO YOU? THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE AN EXHIBITION, OR IT SHOULD BE A BOOK, RATHER THAN AN ARTICLE. PHILIP MONK: WELL, IN SOME CASES IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN ARTICLE. [LAUGH] MARNIE FLEMING: OR IN SOME CASES IT’S WANTING TO SHARE THAT KIND OF SPINE TINGLING EXCITEMENT THAT YOU FEEL ABOUT AN ARTWORK WITH OTHERS. OTHER TIMES, IT’S FOR PURELY SELFISH REASONS. SOMETIMES I START FROM, I DON’T UNDERSTAND A WORK AND WANTING TO UNDERSTAND IT, SO IT COMES FROM TWO DIFFERENT AREAS FOR ME. JENIFER PAPARARO: I WAS GOING TO ASK ANTHONY ABOUT SOME OF THE PROJECTS THAT YOU’VE DONE THROUGH THE CURATORIAL INSTITUTE AT BANFF AND HOW YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO PUT FORWARD DISCUSSION THERE IF YOU THINK THAT IT'S BEEN WORKING. PAUL COUILLARD: DID YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING FIRST? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY PART OF TRYING TO -- WHAT CURATING IS, CURATING THINGS TO NEGOTIATE WHAT YOU CONSIDER WHAT ART WORK IT. THAT'S A QUESTION. WHAT ACTUALLY DEFINES AN ARTIST? I THINK SOMETIMES CURATING CAN BE ABOUT THAT, ABOUT WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE ART. NOT EVEN WHAT'S CONSIDERED TO BE GOOD ART, AND WHAT'S NOT. WHAT YOU CONSIDER TO BE ART, AND WHAT'S NOT. ANTHONY KIENDL: THE BACKGROUND OF THE CURATORIAL INSTITUTE, WAS THAT IT WAS STARTED BY JOHN TUPPER MY PREDECESSOR, IN 2000. IT HAD ORIGINS IN BANFF AT A CONFERENCE CALLED “NAMING A PRACTICE” WHICH ASKED THIS VERY QUESTION, WHAT IS A CURATOR, WHAT IS THIS PRACTICE, HOW DO WE NAME THIS PRACTICE? PETER WHITE ORGANIZED THAT. THERE WERE 20 CURATORS WHO DID PRESENTATIONS AND HAD SEMINAR DISCUSSIONS AND THAT RESULTED IN A PUBLICATION. SINCE THEN THE CURATORIAL INSTITUTE HAS HAD A NUMBER OF SYMPOSIA, CONFERENCES OR THINK TANKS ONE RESULTED IN THE PUBLICATION “OUT OF THE BOX”, FOCUSING ON FOUR SPECIFIC AREAS: ART PUBLICATIONS, CURATORIAL PRACTICE OUTSIDE THE MUSEUM…I FORGET ALL THE DETAILS EXACTLY, BUT THERE



WERE FOUR QUESTIONS AT THIS ONE EVENT AND THERE WERE ABOUT 20 PEOPLE PRESENTING, AND ABOUT 100 PARTICIPATING. I THINK YOU WERE PROBABLY AT THAT ONE. SINCE THEN, THERE WAS A SMALL THINK TANK ON EDUCATION AND MUSEUMS. IT WAS SET UP SO A CURATOR AND AN EDUCATOR FROM A LARGE PUBLIC INSTITUTION BOTH CAME TO CREATE A FORUM FOR DISCUSSION OUTSIDE OF THEIR DAILY INSTITUTIONAL SETTING, HOPING THAT IT WOULD CREATE AN OPPORTUNITY TO NAME A DIFFERENT KIND OF CONVERSATION. THIS PAST SPRING (MAY) WE DID THE OBSESSION/COMPULSION/COLLECTION". IT WAS FUNDED BY THE MUSEUMS ASSISTANCE PROGRAM LOOKING AT THE PRACTICE OF ACQUIRING ARTWORKS. I ARRIVED IN BANFF, WE HAD CONVERSATIONS, WE FOCUSED IT ON TRYING TO COME FROM A STEP BACK, LOOKING AT THE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT COLLECTIONS AND THE HISTORY OF COLLECTIONS AND LOOKING AT COLLECTIONS WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF VISUAL CULTURE AND CONSUMER CULTURE, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN A MORE FORMAL MUSEUM-ORIENTED DISCUSSION. IT WAS ABOUT VISUAL CULTURE, HOW OBJECTS ARE INTERPRETED AND ACQUIRED SO WE LOOKED AT THINGS OUTSIDE OF ART GALLERIES. MOST RECENTLY, IN THE FALL, IT WAS AN ALL ABORIGINAL CURATORIAL SYMPOSIUM. ALL THE PRESENTERS WERE ABORIGINAL. THEY LOOKED AT FOUR AREAS RELATED TO ABORIGINAL CURATORIAL PRACTICE: ONE WAS CRITICAL WRITING FROM AN ABORIGINAL PERSPECTIVE, ANOTHER WAS CONSTRUCTING ART HISTORY FROM A NON-EUROCENTRIC PERSPECTIVE (WHICH WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT THE CANADA COUNCIL ABORIGINAL CURATORIAL RESIDENCY PROGRAM). SO WHAT IT’S DONE IS START THIS IN A SENSE, TALKING ABOUT NAMING A PRACTICE, BUT MOVED ON SO THAT EACH EVENT LOOKS AT ONE SPECIFIC AREA, WHETHER IT'S COLLECTIONS OR ABORIGINAL ISSUES. WE’RE DOING TWO IN THE FALL. WE’RE GETTING MORE SPECIALIZED. ONE IS IN COLLABORATION WITH MIDDLESEX UNIVERSITY, IN THE TATE BRITAIN SPETEMBER. AROUND HOW DO YOU CURATE ARCHITECTURE AND SPATIAL CULTURE AND HOW THAT WORKS IN A GALLERY CONTEXT. THEN A FEW WEEKS AFTER THAT, WE'RE HAVING A SECOND SESSION IN BANFF WE’LL CONTINUE WITH THAT, BUT LOOK AT INFORMAL ARCHITECTURE, WHICH ARE CONTINGENT, HYPOTHETIC, FICTIONAL, CONTEMPORARY, NOMADIC OR MOBILE. SO THAT SEEMS TO BE A COURSE THAT WE’VE GONE ON TO FIND OPPORTUNITIES TO LOOK AT DIFFERENT AREAS OF PRACTICE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME MAKE AN EVENT THAT’S OF INTEREST TO A BROAD CROSS-SECTION OF CULTURAL WORKERS AND ARTISTS. WE ALWAYS HAVE ARTISTS AND CURATORS, WRITERS AND CRITICS PRESENT A PRETTY BROAD GROUP



OF CULTURAL WORKERS. FOR THE FUTURE, WE’RE LOOKING AT CURATORIAL PRACTICE WITHIN VISUAL CULTURE AND THE ROLE OF CURATOR IN SOCIETY, THE ROLE OF CURATORIAL PRACTICE IN VISUAL LITERACY AND, BY THAT MEANING THE IMPACT OF CURATORIAL PRACTICE ON SOCIETY AND HOW IT AFFECTS EDUCATION, PUBLIC POLICY AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT, AND ULTIMATELY HEALTH IN SOCIETY. I THINK ULTIMATELY -- THIS MIGHT BE A GREAT GROUP TO TALK TO AT SOME POINT -- ABOUT LOOKING AT A NATIONAL SERVICE ORGANIZATION FOR CURATORS THAT’S SIMILAR TO CARFAC FOR ARTISTS, OR CAMDO FOR MUSEUM DIRECTORS. JENIFER PAPARARO: THAT WAS GREAT. I SEE THAT WITH "NAMING A PRACTICE", YOU DID THINGS ARE MORE SPECIFIC AND NOW IN A WAY YOU'RE COMING BACK AND YOU’RE ASKING MORE GENERAL QUESTIONS ABOUT THE PRACTICE IN ITSELF. ANTHONY KIENDL: THERE WAS A PUBLICATION, ALMOST LIKE A HANDBOOK FOR EMERGING CURATORS CALLED “THE EDGE OF EVERYTHING”. IT WASN'T I RESPONSE TO A PARTICLUAR EVENT BUT THE EDITOR COMMISSIONED 12 CURATORS TO TALK ABOUT THEIR PRACTICE. THE ASSIGNMENT WAS TO DO SO IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY ATTEMPT TO REVEAL THE UNSPOKEN ASSUMPTIONS, PERSONAL VERY SUBJECTIVE BACKGROUNDS THAT CURATORS BRING TO THEIR PRACTICE. THEY WERE ASKED TO SPEAK COLLOQUIALLY AS IF YOU WERE HAVING A CONVERSATION. THAT BOOK IS THE CLOSEST TIE TO A HANDBOOK FOR EMERGING CURATORS. THERE WAS THEORETICAL ASPECTS TO IT BUT THEY ASKED, WHAT DO YOU DO? WHY DO YOU DO WHAT YOU DO? YOU PROBABLY KNOW THE ICI BOOK THAT WAS SIMILAR. THERE WAS 60 CURATORS WERE ASKED THE SAME THING, ONLY ALL THE RESPONSES ARE ABOUT A PAGE LONG. KIM SIMON: IT’S INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THOSE PUBLICATIONS THAT COME FROM CONVERSATIONS IN CANADA AND TO THINK ABOUT THE AIMS OF WHAT THESE SYMPOSIA ARE. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT "NAMING A PRACTICE II, THE SEQUEL"? TALKING TO A GROUP OF NEW CURATORS? IN ONE SENSE THAT WOULD BE GREAT TO REVISIT THAT WITH A NEW GROUP OF PEOPLE BECAUSE WE DON’T OFTEN HAVE THE CHANCE TO GET TOGETHER. [TAPE ENDS] WE ARE RESPONSIBLE TO A HISTORY OF CURATORIAL DISCOURSE AND WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND BANFF IS A KEY PART OF THAT AND WHAT YOU SAID OR IS IT ABOUT HAVING A DECENT CONVERSATION FOR CURRENT PRACTIONERS? AND FORGETTING ALL THE REST OF THE STUFF.



ANTHONY KIENDL: THAT KIND OF EVENT SERVES A PURPOSE. I THINK THAT THERE IS STILL A NEED FOR IT IN OTHER PLACES. WE RECOGNIZE A LOT OF IT’S ABOUT THE CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN PANELS AND NETWORKING. THE ONE IN MAY, WE HAD BREAKOUT SESSIONS FOR 140 PEOPLE. EACH PANEL LEADER LED A GROUP OF 30 IN BREAKOUT ROOMS AFTER THE PANEL. PEOPLE COULD CHOSE THE ROOMS THAT THEY WANTED TO GO TO AMD HAVE MORE OF A SIMILAR TYPE OF DISCUSSION. WE ALSO LEFT TWO HOURS FOR LUNCH, BECAUSE IT’S REALLY PEOPLE MEETING PEOPLE. I LIKE THE THREE MEETING IDEA. THE PUBLICATIONS, MAYBE JUST ANOTHER GENERATION OR ANOTHER GROUP OF PEOPLE BECAUSE IT’S A HUGE PRACTICE AND THERE’S MAYBE TEN BOOKS THAT COME TO MIND. BUT MAYBE A SURVEY OF SEEING WHAT’S BEEN DONE: BALTIC ART CENTRE HAS FIVE BOOKS A SIMILAR STYLE. THERE WAS ONE “CURATING IN THE TWENTIETH CENTURY” THAT WAS FROM A SEMINAR IN THE UK. MAYBE AN INTERVIEW STYLE BOOK! THERE REALLY ISN'T A CANADIAN ONE. THERE’S THE HANS ULRICH OBRIST BOOK. I WOULD LOVE SOMEONE TO INTERVIEW CURATORS ABOUT SHOWS IN THE PAST ABOUT WHY THEY DID THAT. A PRETTY EXHAUSTIVE THING. I THINK OF BOOKS LIKE FROM SEA TO SHINING SEA. IT IS A GREAT RESOURCE ON PARTICULAR ARTISTS, LIKE A CHRONOLOGY. TO HEAR WHAT MATTHEW TEITELBAUM DID IN SUCH AND SUCH A PLACE 20 YEARS AGO. I THINK THAT COULD BE VERY INTERESTING. JEWELL GOODWYN: A POINT OF ORDER, WE HAVE SESSION ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE’RE TALKING ABOUT SHIFTING FOCUS BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE CONTENT COMMITTEE. DID WE EXHAUST THE PIECE OF WRITING THAT YOU BROUGHT TO THE TABLE, JENIFER? OTHER QUESTIONS? JENIFER PAPARARO: SURE, YES. PHILIP MONK: JUST ONE FINAL COMMENT. I THINK THAT ALL THESE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES TO DISCUSS. IT'S NOT THAT ONE IS MORE IMPORTANT THT THE OTHER. WHAT YOU’VE SAID I DISAGREE WITH BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT IS NOT THE ISSUE OF CURATORIAL DISCUSSION. WE SHOULDN’T DISPENSE OF ISSUES. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE’RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT SPARKS INTEREST. JEWELL GOODWYN: DEBATE. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE’RE TALKING ABOUT ONTARIO. I DON’T KNOW IF WE’VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY IN ONTARIO TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON. WE CAN (SUPPLY) BRING IN SOME VOICES FROM OUTSIDE OF THE COUNTRY OR A TEXT



OR AN EXHIBITION. IT’S REALLY WHEN WE MOVE TOWARDS IDEAS THAT PEOPLE REALLY DO WANT TO GET COME TO THE TABLE AND CONTRIBUTE AND WORK ON THAT IDEA, EVEN IF IT’S A DISMISSAL OF THE IDEA. PHILIP MONK: I’D RATHER HAVE SOMETHING CALLED, “NAMING A WHAT?”, BECAUSE I THINK THE LANGUAGE PREDETERMINES AND DEFINES WHAT CURATING IS. WE CALL IT A PRACTICE. IF WE SAY “PRACTICE” WE ALREADY ASSUME THAT WE KNOW WHAT A PRACTICE IS. IF YOU CALL IT A CURATORIAL “DISCOURSE”, YOU PRESUME THAT WE KNOW WHAT A DISCOURSE IS AND BY SAYING THAT WE PRESUME THAT CURATING IS A PRACTICE. WE PRESUME THAT CURATING IS A DISCOURSE THAT CURATING HAS A DISCOURSE. I DON’T KNOW IF WE CAN PRESUME ALL THOSE THINGS. I THINK PART OF THE ISSUE IS TO SAY “IS CURATING A PRACTICE?”, “IS CURATING A PRACTICE?”, WHAT FORM (BLANK) IS CURATING? WHAT FORM OF WHAT IS CURATING? WHAT FORM OF THOUGHT IS CURATING? IS CURATING AN INTELLECTUAL DISCIPLINE AND, IF IT'S AN INTELLECTUAL DISCIPLINE, WHAT’S SPECIFIC TO IT THAT MAY NOT BE THEORETIZABLE. IT MIGHT NOT BE A DISCIPLINE, IT MIGHT BE A PRACTICE OR A DISCOURSE, BECAUSE THOSE THINGS CALL FORTH PRE-CONCEIVED NOTIONS OF WHAT THAT ACTIVITY IS. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: HOW CAN IT NOT BE A DISCOURSE, THOUGH?! CORINNA GHAZNAVI: I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW IT CANNOT BE A PRACTICE. IN THE MOST BASIC SENSE AS IN THIS IS WHAT I PRACTICE, THIS IS WHAT I DO? CAN’T IT BE UNDERSTOOD IN THOSE TERMS? PHILIP MONK: WELL PRACTICE BRINGS ALONG HISTORY AND LANGUAGE WITH IT WHICH IS THEORIZABLE. IF SOMETHING IS NOT THEORIZABLE, IS IT ALSO A PRACTICE? CORRINA GHAZNAVI: YES, I THINK SO, IT’S APPLICABLE. IT’S SPECIFIC TO CURATORIAL BUT IT'S ALSO GENERAL. IT’S SOMETHING THAT YOU DO. I JUST WANTED TO BACKTRACK A BIT. ABOUT THE SEQUELS (WHAT KIM WAS SAYING). I’VE BEEN REALLY INTERESTED IN EMPHASIZING THE SUBJECT POSITION OF CURATORS. AT THIS TABLE WE ALL WORK ENTIRELY DIFFERENTLY AND WOULD PROBABLY DEFINE WHAT WE DO AS BEING INITIALLY MOTIVATED IN DIFFERENT WAYS. IT’S IMPORTANT TO HOLD FAST TO THOSE DIFFERENT IDEAS, BECAUSE CURATORIAL PRACTICE IS BEING TAUGHT, IT IS BECOMING AN ACADEMIC SUBJECT. I’M QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS. WHO IS TEACHING IT, FOR WHO, AND WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT AND FOR WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE BEING EDUCATED? WHAT IS THE FRAMEWORK? I’M SKEPTICAL IF IT CAN BE TAUGHT AND WHERE THAT DIRECTION IS GOING.



WHAT’S INTERESTING IS THAT IT IS DIVERSE PEOPLE DO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK IN EXTREMELY INDIVIDUAL WAYS. IF ONE IS COMMUNICATING IN SOME WAY AND GETTING A RESPONSE AROUND THE EXHIBITIONS, THEN THAT WAY OF WORKING IS LEGITIMATE. I THINK THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO HOLD FAST TO THAT. SARAH QUINTON: I THINK THAT LEADS BEAUTIFULLY INTO (LAUGHS) JEWELL GOODWYN: GOOD SEGUE. SARAH QUINTON: WHAT I THINK IS REALLY, YOU KNOW, VERY MUCH RELATED EILEEN, TO YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THAT YOU BROUGHT FORTH WHICH IS WHY DO YOU CURATE? AND IT'S THOSE BIG QUESTIONS, OF COURSE ARE HARDER TO GRIP ON TO, BUT ONCE YOU DO ATTACK IT FROM A PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW, THAT’S WHEN YOU GET 20 OR SO RESPONSES FROM AROUND A TABLE SUCH AS THIS ONE.UM… THAT SMALL QUESTION I HAD FRAMED AS BEING WHAT DO YOU CURATE? OR WHAT DO YOU DO, AS OPPOSED TO THE WHY, WHICH IS ALL CONNECTED IN, OF COURSE. AND SO I THOUGHT THAT THAT MIGHT BE A WAY THAT WE COULD GET AT A LOT OF WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN TOUCHED ON, OF COURSE BUT… I DON’T WANT TO SAY PERSONAL. WE ALL COME TO THESE IDEAS FROM A PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW AND FROM, HOPEFULLY FROM, THE BUILDING UP OF EXPERIENCE THAT HAS ALSO BEEN TOUCHED ON NOW. I THINK THAT THIS IDEA OF UM… CURATING WITHOUT A CONTEXT OR WITHOUT AN INSTITUTION UH… IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS BECAUSE THERE IS ALWAYS A CONTEXT, IT MAY NOT BE AN INSTITUTION PER SE, BUT THERE IS ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT FRAMES THAT THING THAT WE DO. SO I DON’T KNOW WHAT, HOW WE’D FIT THAT INTO WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID OR WHETHER WE JUST WANT TO GO AROUND THE TABLE WHICH IS MAYBE NOT SO INTERESTING UM, BECAUSE OF PRESSURES THAT BRINGS ON, BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO ANSWER THAT “WHAT DO YOU CURATE?”. THAT QUESTION. WITHIN A CONTEXT OR NOT WITHIN A CONTEXT. THAT MIGHT GIVE US SOME SUBJECTS AND THINGS TO GET AT. UM…. DOWN THE ROAD WHEN WE TRY TO GET SOME THEMES, THEMES UH… DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WHAT DO YOU CURATE? ANTHONY KIENDL: WHAT DO I CURATE? SARAH QUINTON: WHO ARE YOU? IT’S LIKE A JOB INTERVIEW.



ANTHONY KIENDL: WELL, UM…I’M NOT EVEN SURE ANYMORE. BUT I GUESS WHAT I HAVE SAID IN THE PAST, UM, I, I’M INTERESTED IN TELLING STORIES. I SEE CURATING AS A CREATIVE PRACTICE. UM, I SEE IT AS PARTLY AN INTERPRETIVE ACT, BUT ALSO UH… A CREATIVE AND STORY TELLING ACT. AND UM, I THINK ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT HAS BEEN CIRCULATING QUITE A WHILE BUT IT SEEMS TO VACILLATE BACK AND FORTH IS THE WHOLE QUESTION OF ARTIST AS CURATOR OR MAYBE IN A LESS DIRECT WAY, HOW PRESENT DOES THE CURATOR PLACE THEIR SUBJECTIVITY. AND UM… YOU KNOW, I THINK IT’S GONE IN WAVES OF POPULARITY OR ACCEPTANCE FROM EXTREMES UM, YOU KNOW, MAYBE LOOKING AT HAROLD SZEEMAN, AND YOU KNOW, MOVING UP MORE TO PEOPLE LIKE ANDREW HUNTER, AND I THINK, UM, THERE ARE VARYING DEGREE, WELL YEAH, YOU KNOW THE WHOLE CONVERSATION. BUT I SUPPOSE WHAT I, WHERE I COME TO THAT IS UH, THAT I CAN NOT DENY MY OWN ROLE AND INTEREST IN SUBJECTIVITY AND I DON’T WANT OT HIDE THAT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I DON’T WANT THE TO BE, TO OVERWHELM THE IDEA OF THE ARTISTS. I DON'T KNOW, THAT END UP BEING A COP OUT. IT'S, I THINK THAT IT, IN EACH CASE AND THAT’S WHERE THE PRACTICE COME IN, IT'S LIKE YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT IT'S GOING TO LOOK LIKE OR WHAT IT MEANS UNTIL IT HAPPENS. AND THAT'S THE PRACTICE. IT'S PLAYING WITH THOSE, THOSE IDEAS AND PRESSURES. AT THE SAME TIME I THINK THAT CONVERSATION IS GETTING VERY TIRING AND OLD. BUT I DON'T KNOW, LIKE IN SOME WAYS YOU CAN'T GET AROUND IT, IT’S LIKE THE DEATH OF THE AUTHOR, OR MAYBE FOR ARTISTS. THERE ARE SOME JUST SOME QUESTIONS THAT YOU JUST CAN'T, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM. THAT'S KIND OF THE GENERAL THING. I FIND TENDENCIES IN MY PRACTICE AND THAT I, I FEEL LIKE I AM TELLING A KIND OF ONGOING STORY, WHICH I WAS NOT AWARE OF UNTIL AFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS IT EMERGED. AND I’M INTERESTED IN THING LIKE FAILURE, WEAKNESS, EMPATHY AND NOSTALGIA AND ALL OF THOSE IN RELATION TO MODERNISM. IT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN DIVERSE FORMS, SO, AN EXHIBITION THAT I DID ABOUT ARTISTS MAKING MINIATURES, I THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE ABOUT DIMINUTIVENESS WHICH IS KIND OF RELATED TO WEAKNESS, BUT WHEN YOU SAW THE SHOW I DIDN’T TALK ABOUT THAT IN THE TEXT AND YOU WOULDN’T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT. YOU WOULDN'T KNOW THAT UNTIL MY NEXT, ONE OF MY NEXT SHOWS WAS ABOUT CUTENESS AND, THE VISUAL LANGUAGE OF CUTENESS, AND LOOKING AT THAT AS KIND OF SOMETHING OVERLOOKED IN ART HISTORY, SOMETHING DISREGARDED, SOMETHING PATHETIC. THEN I DID ANOTHER SHOW ABOUT… SCIENCE FICTION AND ALTERITY AND USING SCIENCE FICTION AS A MEANS, TO CREATE A SUBJECT POSITION THAT WAS MARGINAL OR, SOMEHOW, I GUESS A WEAK SUBJECT. SO THAT’S THE PRACTICE. THAT'S WHAT I THEORIZE, AND THAT’S WHAT EMERGES. YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN KNOW THAT SEEING, YOU WOULD



NEVER KNOW THAT PROBABLY SEEING ONE OF THE EXHIBITIONS, YOU PROBABLY WOULDN'T NOTICE UNLESS YOU SAW FIVE OF THEM, UNLESS WE HAD A CONVERSATION. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: NOW WE'LL ALWAYS NOTICE. ANTHONY KIENDL: BUT THAT’S WHERE THE VALUE OF THIS KIND OF THING COULD BE. I COULD SAY, OH, THAT’S WHAT I’M DOING, AND I THINK THAT IS A PRACTICE. IT'S NOT THE KIND OF THINGS THAT A CRITIC IS GOING TO REALLY TALK ABOUT IN A REVIEW OF THE SHOW, IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT’S PRETTY RARE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT THOSE THINGS. SO... IF THAT ANSWERS THE QUESTION. JEWELL GOODWYN: SOMETHING THAT I'D LIKE TO ADD, I HAD ANOTHER INTEREST AS AN ARTIST IS THAT I’D LIKE TO ALSO HEAR FROM EVERYONE, NOT ONLY WHAT THEY DO, BUT WHERE'S THE ARTIST IN YOUR PRACTICE? I'M VERY CURIOUS TO HEAR THAT. ANTHONY KIENDL: DO YOU WANT ME TO…? JEWELL GOODWYN: SURE. ANTHONY KIENDL: WHERE IS THE ARTIST IN… JEWELL GOODWYN: IN THE WORK THAT YOU DO. ANTHONY KIENDL: WELL, I… I CONSIDER WHAT I DO A COLLABORATIVE PRACTICE AND EVERY SHOW IS DIFFERENT AND SOMETIMES I'LL BE, I'LL OBSERVE, A NUMBER OF ARTISTS ARE INTERESETED IN SOMETHING AND I'LL BECOME INTERESTED IN THAT, OR SOMETIMES I'M INTERESTED AND THEN I TALK TO ARTISTS ABOUT IT, BUT USUALLY COLLABORATIVE, AND LIKE I SAID I HOPE, AND I BELIEVE THAT WHEN YOU SEE THE SHOW, IT’S REALLY ABOUT THE ARTISTS' WORK BEING, THAT'S WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT’S FOREFRONT, THAT'S WHAT'S FRONT AND CENTRE. BUT I DON'T THINK I CAN PRETEND THAT, UH, THAT'S ALL THAT IT’S ABOUT. IF I SELECTED FIVE ARTISTS TO BE IN A SHOW, OBVIOUSLY THERE’S A REASON, SO, I AM COMPELLED TO THEORIZE THAT. I AM COMPELLED TO FIGURE OUT WHY THAT IS. EVEN IF IT DOESN’T HAPPEN DURING THE SHOW. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO JUST SAY IT’S ONLY ABOUT THE FIVE ARTISTS AND THEIR IDEAS. THAT‘S IMPOSSIBLE. LIZ WYLIE: IF YOU DON’T MIND SARAH, I THINK I WON'T REALLY TALK. SARAH QUINTON: NOT AT ALL.



LIZ WYLIE: BECAUSE I'M ALREADY ON THE COMMITTEE AND WE REALLY WANT TO HEAR EVERYONES IDEAS, THE GUESTS. SARAH QUINTON: OKAY LETS APPROACH IT THAT WAY AND NOT PUT ANYBODY ON THE SPOT WITH THIS HORRIBLE ROUND THE TABLE SITUATION, BUT… EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I THINK THAT WAS ENCOURAGING TO HEAR WHAT YOU JUST SAID, ANTHONY BECAUSE I AGREE WITH A LOT OF IT, SO I AM NOT GOING TO REPEAT THAT. A LOT OF, AS SOON AS YOU SAID IT, A LOT OF THE TIME AH…I…THE CURATOR, WHAT I DO HAS TO DO WITH TRYING TO NEGOTIATE MY OWN WAY AND HOPEFULLY, VIS A VIS THAT, HELP OTHERS TO NEGOTIATE THEIR WAY, AND I THINK ARTWORK SOME WAYS FUNCTIONS FOR ME THAT WAY IT HELPS US TO NEGOTIATE. YOU KNOW, WHERE WE ARE, WHERE WE'RE GOING, WHY ARE WE DOING THINGS IT ACTUALLY OFFERS UP POSSIBILITY. BUT I THINK SOME OF MY INTERESTS ARE IN STRUGGLE, VULNERABILITY, PAIN AND WONDER AND JUST THE FACT THAT THERE IS NO SINGULAR ANSWER TO ANYTHING, AND THAT IT'S REALLY, IT’S ABOUT POSSIBILITY. AND I THINK IN A LOT OF WAYS, THE SHOWS THAT I DO ARE, MEANT TO BE BEGINNINGS OF SOMETHING THEN ABSOLUTELY OPEN TO INTERPRETATION. SO, IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU SAY ABOUT, AU YOU SEE YOUR ROLE AS AN INTERPRETER. I AGREE WITH THAT AND I THINK IT TAKES COURAGE BE A CURATOR, TO PUT THINGS TOGETHER AND TO SUGGEST AN IDEA WHICH I ALWAYS HOPE DOES NOT, DOES NOT CONTAIN THE SHOW OR INHIBIT THE WORK, BUT IN FACT THAT IT GIVES IT THE OPPORTUNITY, GIVES IT A FORM AND GIVES IT SOME LIFE SO IT’S NOT ABOUT PINNING IT DOWN. IN FACT, I THINK IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT TO ENABLE THE WORK WITHIN A SHOW TO HAVE ITS BUOYANCY, AND TO HAVE ITS… TO NOT BE, CONSTRAINED. I THINK THAT'S A DIFFICULT THING BECAUSE WHEN YOU PUT IT IN A CONTEXT, YOU PUT IT IN A SHOW, IT DOES NECESSARILY GET LABELED IN SOME WAY. BUT, REALLY I MEAN WHEN YOU ASK ABOUT, “WHERE IS THE ARTIST OR THE ARTWORK?” JEWELL GOODWYN: NO … HAVING DONE THEIR WORK, WHEN IT’S BEING CURATED WHERE IS THE ARTIST IN THE PROCESS? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: AH, FOR ME THE ARTIST IS ALWAYS INVOLVED. I DON'T THINK I TELL ANYONE WHAT TO DO. I WORK WITH PEOPLE BECAUSE I’M INTERESTED IN HOW THEY THINK, AND OFTEN TIMES I WORK WITH ARTISTS WHO ARE MAKING WORK FOR THE SHOW, I TEND TO, BE MUCH BETTER AT THAT, I’M NOT REALLY VERY GOOD AT PULLING WORK TOGETHER FOR A SHOW. I’M MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN A SENSIBILITY THAT THEN GETS BROUGHT TOGETHER, AND I DON'T, I DON'T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO COME OUT OF IT. I ALWAYS SAY I THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO



BE GREAT BUT IT MIGHT BE AWFUL. IT'S JUST ABOUT TAKING SOME RISK, A SENSE OF WONDER, AND I THINK IT REALLY HAS TO DO WITH… ALLOWING… THE ART WORK TO…I THINK IT HAS TO DO WITH NEGOTIATING, GETTING SOME SORT OF IDEA ABOUT WHERE WE ARE. IT IS A DOCUMENT, OR A COMMENT ON WHERE WE ARE AND WHAT WE’RE DOING, THE WORK. AND SO, PUTTING IT INTO THIS CONTEXT, MAYBE, CHANNELS IT BUT THEN BEYOND THAT, IT SHOULD HAVE A LIFE BEYOND THAT. CORRINA GHAZNAVI: I ACTUALLY WORK ALONG THOSE LINES, DIFFERENTLY, ALONG THOSE LINES. I TEND TO BEGIN CONCEPTUALLY AND I LIKE TO WORK WITH A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF ARTISTS, TWO TO THREE ARTISTS. AND THE WAY THAT THOSE CHOICES ARE MADE ARE OFTEN REALLY INSTINCTUAL, A LITTLE BIT WHAT TONY WAS SAYING EXCEPT A LONG PROCESS THAT STARTS TO COME TOGETHER. I HAVE A STRONG TRUST IN MY INSTINCT IN THE PROCESS, BUT SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE I ALWAYS HAVE A PANIC, I ALWAYS THINK THAT NOTHING IS GOING TO FIT TOGETHER. REALLY KEY IN TERMS OF THE ARTIST IS THAT I WORK EXTREMELY COLLABORATIVELY. SO IF I WORK, I SEE THE WORK OF ONE ARTIST AND I SAY LOOK I'VE BEEN THINKING OF THESE AND THESE IDEAS AND THIS IS WHY I WOULD WANT TO DRAW YOUR WORK IN AND THIS IS WHY I'M THINKING ABOUT THIS ARTIST, OR IT'S ALSO COME OUT OF OUR CONVERSATIONS IF THE ARTIST SAYS, YOU KNOW, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN THIS OTHER ARTIST OR IN THE WAY THAT THEY WORK. SO I MAY GO AND SEE THAT WORK. IT HAPPENS IN ALL VARIOUS WAYS, BUT THROUGHOUT THAT PROCESS RIGHT FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IT'S REALLY QUITE COLLABORATIVE. I DON'T GO INTO A STUDIO AND SAY “OK, I WANT THOSE THREE PIECES”. AGAIN, MOSTLY THE WORK PROGRESSES ALONG, SO IT’S NEW WORK. I'VE WORKED, I'VE DONE THIS SAME SHOW, I TOURED A SHOW WHERE THERE WAS ALMOST A YEAR BETWEEN THE GAPS. SO THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING BECAUSE IN THE FIRST EXHIBITION THE ARTISTS DIDN’T KNOW EACH OTHER, THEY KNEW OF EACH OTHERS' ART. BUT THEY WERE IN TWO DIFFERENT CITIES AND SO AFTER THEY SHOWED TOGETHER, A LOT OF OTHER THINGS STARTED CLICKING AND THEY MADE A NEW SHOW THE SECOND TIME AROUND, AROUND THE SAME IDEAS, WHICH WAS JUST SORT OF AN INTERESTING THING. SO, I’M INTERESTED IN THIRD SPACES, I GUESS, AND POSSIBILITIES AND INTERSTICES, AND PUTTING WORK TOGETHER [IN A WAY] THAT IT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO ARTICULATE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT NECESSARILY WORK THAT'S MADE ONLY AROUND THE SAME IDEAS OR WORK THAT MADE, IT’S FORMALLY ALWAYS REALLY DIFFERENT. GENERALLY, THE TEMPERMENTS OF THE ARTISTS ARE REALLY DIFFERENT SO IT MAKES AN INTERESTING PROCESS. THE TENSIONS AND THE RESONANCES I'M INTERESTED IN, PUTTING TOGETHER TWO ARTISTS WHERE THE TENSIONS OPEN UP A THIRD SPACE, SO THE REASON I AM FASCINATED BY ARTISTS IS THAT THEY ARE ABLE



TO CREATE OBJECTS IN A WAY THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE OCCURRED TO ME, BUT WHEN I LOOK AT IT, IT MAKES SENSE TO ME. SO THERE'S THIS KIND OF SKEWED WAY, OR ANGLE, OR VERY SPECIFIC WAY OF MANAGING TO VISUALIZE SOMETHING. SO, IN A SENSE, BY CREATING TENSIONS BETWEEN THOSE KINDS OF WORKS YOU HAVE A WHOLE REALM OF POSSIBILITY THAT COMES OUT OF IT. THAT’S THE BEST I CAN DO TO…(LAUGHS) IN DESCRIBING IT. PHILIP MONK: THE THING THAT I DO…. CORRINA GHAZNAVI: THAT WASN’T THE QUESTION… (LAUGHS) THE QUESTION WAS, WHAT WAS IT AGAIN? “WHAT DO YOU CURATE”. PHILIP MONK: WHAT DO I CURATE. OKAY… SARAH QUINTON: OR WHAT DO YOU DO, IF THAT'S… PHILIP MONK: I WORK WITH ARTISTS. I FACILITATE THEIR WORK WITH THE INSTITUTION AND SPACE AND I ADVISE THEM. WHAT THEY DO IS THEIR THING. MY THING IS TO DO THE PUBLICATION AND THAT’S FINE. I THINK THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF CURATING. WHAT I DO, I WORK WITH ARTISTS. I DO SOLO PROJECTS WITH ARTISTS. MAINLY TRYING TO WORK, DO NEW WORK. THAT'S THE BEST SORT OF SITUATION, WHERE YOU CAN CREATE THE POSSIBILITY OF SOMETHING NEW, AND HELPING THEM DO THAT… THAT PROCESS. ON THE OTHER HAND, I DO GROUP EXHIBITIONS WHICH… IN A WAY CAN… IS MORE INTERESTING FOR ME AS SOMETHING THAT YOU COULD CALL CURATING BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT'S WORKING WITH ARTISTS. THE THING THAT YOU DO, I GUESS THAT’S CALLED CURATING, BUT YOU ARE WORKING WITH THE ARTISTS. IN GROUP SHOWS, SOMETHING LIKE, CORINNA, I THINK, AND, WHAT MARNIE WAS SAYING, I USE IT AS A WAY TO THINK, TO FIND OUT WHY, WHY I HAVE THIS FASCINATION WITH SOMETHING, OR THIS GROUP OF THINGS, OR WHY DO I, WHY DO I THINK THERE’S RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THINGS THAT HAVE NO, THAT SEEMINGLY HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP. SO I'M INTERESTED IN THE CURATORIAL PROCESS. I THINK IT IS A PROCESS THAT EVOLVES OVER TIME. I DON’T THINK THAT YOU CAN START WITH AN IDEA OF WHAT AN EXHIBITION IS, OKAY, HERE IS THE THEME OF MY EXHIBITION, SORRY, THAT'S NOT CURATING IN MY MIND. IT HAS TO BE ABOUT RESISTANCE AND RESISTANCE COMES FROM THINKING PROBLEMS THROUGH AND THINKING WHY THESE THINGS ARE RELATED OR IF THEY ARE, AND SOME OF THEM AREN'T AND YOU FIND OUT THEY'RE NOT AND YOU DROP THEM OUT… THAT THINGS COME IN. THAT SORT OF CURATING TO ME IS A PROCESS OF THINKING. IT’S AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS, AND IT'S REALLY ABOUT DISCOVERING WHAT THE RELATIONS OF DIFFERENCE ARE. IT'S FINDING OUT WHY DIFFERENT THINGS ARE



SIMILAR RATHER THAN LINKING SIMILAR THINGS TOGETHER, WHICH IS SIMPLE MINDED AND BORING. SO IT'S A PROCESS OF INTELLECTUAL CHALLENGE AND DISCOVERY, TAKING AN IDEA AND HAVING CONFIDENCE IN YOUR IDEA THAT IT'S GOING TO LEAD SOMEWHERE. OR TO HAVE THE ADVENTURE AND EXCITEMENT OF FOLLOWING THAT IDEA, WHICH MAY BE A FAILURE. SO I THINK THERE ARE TWO WAYS. THE SECOND AS WELL, YOU CAN NEVER OVER RULE AN ARTIST. WHEN AN ARTIST PARTICIPATES IN A GROUP EXHIBITION THERE ARE DIFFERENT DYNAMICS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME AS A CURATOR YOU HAVE TO RESPECT THE ARTIST, AND THERE'S ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY OF SOME SORT OF INFLECTION NOT TO YOUR TASTE OR IDEA, BUT IF YOU HAVE THIS PRINCIPLE TO WORK WITH ARTISTS EVEN IN GROUP SITUATIONS YOU HAVE TO TRY TO ACCOMMODATE THAT, IF YOU CAN’T CONVINCE THEM OTHERWISE. MARNIE FLEMING: JUST ABOUT EVERYBODY'S COVERED SOME OF MY THOUGHTS, I OFTEN THINK OF MYSELF LIKE A JOURNALIST. IN THAT I DO MY RESEARCH ON AN ARTIST, I PREPARE QUESTIONS, I INTERVIEW THEM, AND THEN CONVEY THE STORY TO A WIDE PUBLIC. BUT I SHOULD SAY THAT PARTNERSHIP WITH THE ARTIST, COOOPERATION WITH THE ARTIST, BUT I HAVE ANOTHER CONCERN AND THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE I WORK AND THE AUDIENCE. AND IN OAKVILLE IT’S VERY SPECIFIC, AND THE GALLERY SPACE IS VERY SPECIFIC. THE FACT THAT IT’S AN OLD HOUSE, AND WE'RE FORTUNATE IN THAT WE HAVE A RESIDENCY UPSTAIRS WHERE ARTISTS CAN COME AND CAN DO RESEARCH ABOUT THE PLACE, ABOUT THAT IT WAS A HOUSE THAT IS NOW A PUBLIC SITE, THAT IT SHELTERED A FAMILY THAT ONCE LIVED THERE, THERE IS A VERY SPECIFIC HISTORY AROUND OAKVILLE. AND SO, FOR TEN YEARS, I’VE BEEN EXPLORING THOSE ISSUES WITH ARTISTS THAT I CONSIDER TO BE A MATCH FOR THAT SITE. […] AND SO THAT'S WHY THIS IS REALLY GOOD FOR ME TO HEAR WHAT OTHER APPROACHES AROUND THE TABLE ARE, BECAUSE I NEED TO WORK OUT A NEW KIND OF GAME PLAN FOR MYSELF IN TERMS OF WHERE AM I GOING TO GO IN THE NEXT TEN YEARS. SARAH QUINTON: MAYBE WE COULD DO SOME JOB SWITCHING. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: IT'S INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTION PLACE. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE THING ABOUT BEING AN INSTITUTIONAL CURATOR, IS, YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH, OR MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUT, IN SOME SENSE YOU ARE EXPLORING THE SAME PHYSICAL SPACE IN MANY, MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. AND EVEN GEOGRAPHICALLY, PHILIP, YOU’VE DONE A LOT OF WORK WITH TORONTO ARTISTS, AND, MARNIE, YOUR PROJECTS IN OAKVILLE ARE REALLY UNDISCOVERED, I THINK, ACROSS THE COUNTRY. YOU HAVE REALLY USED OAKVILLE AS A VERY INTERESTING



POINT OF DEPARTURE FOR A LOT OF CONTEMPORARY WORK AND YOU’VE CREATED POSSIBILITIES OF NEW WORK. IS PLACE… A FACTOR THAT'S IMPORTANT? KIM SIMON: AGAIN WITH WHAT I SAID EARLIER, I DO HAVE MULTIPLE ROLES AND I WORK DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING WHICH ROLE I'M OCCUPYING. SO I DO CONSIDER THAT JEN AND NATALIE REPRESENT THE PROGRAMMING /CURATING PERSPECTIVE FROM THE ARTIST RUN CENTRE, BUT I MEAN, I KNOW, WORKING WE ARE, AND IT MIGHT BE MORE PARTICULAR TO TORONTO BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS EXTRA TIER OF ARTIST-RUN COMMERCIAL SPACES THAT I FEEL OCCUPY AND REPRESENT EMERGING ARTISTS, THE WAY ARTIST-RUN CENTRES USED. SO, I FEEL LIKE ARTIST-RUN CENTRES IN TORONTO ARE SOLICITING MORE PROJECTS THAN THEY USED TO. AND WE'RE CERTAINLY DOING THAT AT TPW, AND WE'RE WORKING VERY HARD SINCE I'VE BEEN THERE TO, YOU KNOW, THINK TWO YEARS AHEAD AND CREATE THIS KIND OF VISION. AND OF COURSE TPW HAS THE ADDED BONUS OF BEING A MEDIA SPECIFIC GALLERY, WHICH HAS A WHOLE SET OF HISTORIES AND PROBLEMS TO DEAL WITH IN TERMS OF HOW PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, COME WITH PRECONCEIVED IDEAS OF WHAT THE WORK IS AND WHAT THEY SHOULD BE EXPERIENCING. SO, IN THAT SENSE EVEN JUST THE INSTITUTIONAL HISTORY OF WHERE YOU'RE SHOWING IT BECOMES IMPORTANT IN HOW YOU WE'RE THINKING ABOUT CURATING THERE. BUT IN MY INDEPENDENT PRACTICE, IT’S DIFFERENT, LIKE IF SOMEBODY APPROACHES, AN INSTITUTION APPROACHES ME AND SAYS DO YOU WANT TO DO A PROJECT FOR US, THEN I LOOK TEND TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THEIR PROGRAMMING HAS BEEN AND WHAT, WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN, WHAT THAT INSTITUTION THINKS THEIR AUDIENCE IS LIKE. IN MY OWN, WHEN I PITCH A PROJECT TO PEOPLE THERE IS AN UNDERLYING INTEREST THAT I HAVE THAT IS ABOUT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WAYS PEOPLE COME TO KNOW, AND THAT THE RELATIONSHIP TO VISUAL ART OR THE EXPERIENCE OF ART CAN EITHER PLAY OUT PATTERNS OF WAYS OF KNOWING, OR PUSH UP ELEMENTS OFF. IT’S RESEARCH FOR ME TO SEE, TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. THROUGH, YOU KNOW, ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT-- PRACTICES EXCITE ME IN THE DIFFERENT WAYS THAT THEY APPROACH, PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS, THEIR EXPECTATIONS FOR ENTERTAINMENT OR THEIR EXPECTATIONS FOR KNOWLEDGE OR DESIRE. SO, I DON’T KNOW. JENIFER PAPARARO: EVEN THOUGH I AM ON THE CONTENT COMMITTEE I AM GOING TO TALK ANYWAY. AT THIS POINT I JUST, MY PRACTICE AS A CURATOR TENDS TO BE VERY SOCIAL. ALTHOUGH THAT WAS ADDRESSED IN EVERYBODY’S DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THEY DID, FOR ME IT IS DEFINITELY AT THE FOREFRONT OF MY INTEREST IN WORK THAT I WANT TO PUT FORWARD AND PEOPLE WHO I WANT TO WORK WITH SO IT TENDS TO BE PRIMARY. AND WHETHER THAT IS EXPLICIT IN THE OBJECT ITSELF, OR HOW THE EXHIBITION OR EVENT COMES FORWARD, OR WHETHER IT'S JUST A



NEGOTIATION THAT I’M PUTTING ON THE EXHIBITION, THE SOCIAL IN THAT RELATIONSHIP IS KEY TO THE... I THINK THAT'S ALL I'M GOING TO SAY. NATALIE DE VITO: I DIDN’T THINK I WOULD HAVE TO DO THIS. (LAUGHS) DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: THE SUSHI'S NOT FREE, YOU KNOW. (LAUGHS). SARAH QUINTON: IF YOU WANT A BEER LATER… NATALIE DE VITO: I THINK I SEE IT KIND OF AS A PLAYGROUND. I … LIKE REALLY DUMB THINGS. HUMOUR, YOU KNOW, I’M INTERESTED IN HUMOUR AND HOW PEOPLE EVALUATE HUMOUR OR USE HUMOUR. AND I LIKE HOW ARTISTS OR INDIVIDUALS CALL ATTENTION TO MINOR DETAILS THAT ARE USUALLY OVERLOOKED IN EVERYDAY LIFE. I LIKE REALLY SAD SONGS I LIKE REALLY UGLY… CLOCKS AND DUMB THINGS. I HAVE A TENDENCY I THINK OF, BEING DRAWN TO ARTISTS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THOSE IDEAS, OR WHO'S WORK MAYBE CROSSES OVER IN SOME RESPECT TO MY OWN INTERESTS. HOW I HAVE WORKED IN THE PAST, AND HOW I THINK I LIKE WORKING, AND WOULD CONTINUE TO WORK AT LEAST FOR THE NEXT LITTLE WHILE… IS, IN FINDING THESE ARTISTS, I TEND TO JUST KIND OF BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER WITHOUT NECESSARILY KNOWING WHY OR HAVING A PRECONCEIVED IDEA OF WHAT I'M PLANNING ON DOING. I HAVE BROUGHT A GROUP OF ARTISTS TOGETHER FOR A SHOW AND HAD EVERYBODY COME TOGETHER FOR DINNER AND THE ARTISTS KIND OF TALK ABOUT THEIR INTENTIONS ARE, AND THAT'S HOW THE SHOW DEVELOPS AND I'M REALLY THERE TO PROMOTE IT AND GUIDE WHAT, WHY I, AND GIVE EVERYONE KIND OF, THE REASON WHY I THOUGHT THEY WOULD WORK WELL TOGETHER. BUT ULTIMATELY, I REALLY SEE MYSELF… OBVIOUSLY I CAN’T REMOVE MYSELF FROM THAT POSITION, BUT I TRY TO MAKE IT REALLY A NEGOTIATION WITH EVERYBODYAND LET THEM DIRECT WHERE THINGS ARE GOING. I THINK IN SHOWS, THAT’S NOT APPARENT, BUT I, WHAT MY POSITION IS CERTAINLY IN HOW I TRY TO WRITE ABOUT THE SHOWS OR CONTEXTUAL… I ALWAYS TRY TO CONTEXTUALIZE MYSELF IN SOME WAY AND MAKE IT VERY CLEAR, WHERE I’M COMING FROM AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THAT PROVIDES KIND OF, MY INTERACTION I GUESS. SARAH QUINTON: THAT'S WHAT YOU DO. NATALIE DE VITO: THAT’S WHAT I DO. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE’LL SUGGEST A FIVE-MINUTE REFRESHMENT BREAK. UM, AND A SMOKE IT YOU NEED ONE OR A DRINK, I THINK WE HAVE SOME SWEETS



SOMEWHERE, I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE. IF THAT'S OKAY, MAYBE WE CAN COME BACK TO THE TABLE AT NINE O'CLOCK… JEWELL GOODWYN: THAT GIVES US SEVEN MINUTES. (LAUGHTER) [BREAK] PAUL COUILLARD: I’M REALLY SORT OF PLAYING OFF OF WHAT I’M HEARING THIS EVENING AS OPPOSED TO A PRE-PROGRAMMED IDEA. SO I GUESS THE LAST THING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, WHAT I HEARD, A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE CURATOR AS HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH ARTISTS, BUT THEN I HEARD THE WORD “INTERPRETER” AND I HEARD “ SPECIFIC AUDIENCE”, AND SO I’M WONDERING IF AUDIENCE IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION FOR PEOPLE. JENIFER PAPARARO: I'M SORRY I MISSED THAT. PAUL COUILLARD: IF AUDIENCE, THE ROLE OF CURATOR AS SORT OF INTERPRETER, AS THE LINK BETWEEN AUDIENCE, BETWEEN ARTIST, I MEAN… IS THAT AN INTERESTING QUESTION AS WELL? IS THE QUESTION OF AUDIENCE GENERALLY, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS TALK ABOUT CURATOR IN TERMS OF “I USE IT FOR MY OWN DEVELOPMENT”, AND I UNDERSTAND THAT VERY WELL BECAUSE THAT'S… THOSE ARE DEFINITELY MY IMPULSES AS A CURATOR, COME FROM, FOR ME IT'S MY PERSONAL WAY OF EDUCATING MYSELF, SINCE I'VE NEVER BEEN THROUGH A FORMAL ACADEMIC STRUCTURE BEYOND HIGH-SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, AND CURATING IS THE WAY I'VE EDUCATED MYSELF. BUT I’M CURIOUS ABOUT THIS OTHER SIDE OF THINGS, WHICH IS AUDIENCE AND WHETHER THAT'S A CONCERN FOR PEOPLE AT THIS TABLE, WHETHER THAT'S AN INTERESTING THING TO TALK ABOUT FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE TABLE, OR MAYBE THAT'S NOT AN INTERESTING THING TO TALK ABOUT. MAYBE WE CAN JUST GO AROUND THE ROOM THE SAME WAY WE DID FOR SARAH'S GO-AROUND. CORRINA GHAZNAVI: STARTING WITH ME? I JUST WANT TO, REALLY QUICKLY CAN I ADD SOMETHING, I HAD SOME THOUGHTS OUTSIDE WHEN WE WERE TALKING, ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN CURATING AND PROGRAMMING. THEY ARE IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE TO MAKE. NO MATTER HOW MUCH I DIALOGUE WITH MY ARTISTS, THE CURATORIAL ROLE IS STILL A FACT IN THAT RELATIONSHIP, BECAUSE IT’S ULTIMATELY MY PREMISE EVEN IF THEY ARE WILLING COLLABORATORS IN THAT, AND HAVING SAID THAT IDEALLY THE SHOW WHEN IT'S UP SHOULD STAND ON IT’S OWN, WITHOUT A



DIDACTIC PANEL. I MEAN, IT DOESN'T ALWAYS, BUT THAT’S KIND OF MY IDEAL. SO THIS KIND OF THING ABOUT TAKING RESPONSIBILITY AND ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE CURATOR DEFINITELY DOES HAVE A ROLE LIKE THAT IS IMPORTANT, I JUST WANTED TO ADD THAT. AUDIENCE FOR ME AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR, WHICH IS ANOTHER THING I WANTED TO ADD ACTUALLY IS THAT AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR I’M NOT INTERESTED IN DOING SOLO SHOWS. BECAUSE I DON’T HAVE AN INSTITUTION, I DON’T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO MENTOR SOMEONE THROUGH THAT PROCESS AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING THING FOR AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR TO DO AT ALL. AUDIENCE IN THAT SAME VEIN IS A REALLY A PRAGMATIC THING FOR ME BECAUSE I’M DEALING WITH INSTITUTIONS' MANDATES, I AM DEALING WITH GEOGRAPHICAL THINGS. THERE ARE CERTAIN SHOWS CERTAINLY THAT, OR VARIOUS INSTITUTIONS CAN AND WILL TAKE ON WHATEVER PREMISE BUT I THINK, LOCATION AND AUDIENCE IS PROBABLY MORE OF A TECHNICAL THING FOR ME. NOT NECESSARILY, BUT I WOULD CERTAINLY, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE GALLERIES THAT, SAY, ARE OUTSIDE OF TORONTO, OR IN A MORE REGIONAL CONTEXT, I WOULD DEFINITELY HAVE TO LOOK OR WOULD WANT TO LOOK AT THAT CONTEXT, THAT AUDIENCE. PHILIP MONK: A COMMENT ABOUT INTERPRETATION. NOTHING THAT WE DO CHANGES THE WORK OF ART. THE WORK OF ART ALWAYS EXISTS. THE ARTIST CREATES THE WORK OF ART WE CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. ALL INTERPRETATION HAPPENS IN SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL OR IN IT’S JUXTAPOSITION WITH OTHER THINGS. AUDIENCES… AS A DIRECTOR, YES, I’M CONCERNED ABOUT THE AUDIENCE. (LAUGH) AS A CURATOR, I’M NOT CONCERNED ABOUT THE AUDIENCE. BUT I DON’T DISREGARD THE AUDIENCE, THE AUDIENCE IS NOT MY PRIMARY CONCERN. IT'S NOT MY PRIMARY CONCERN, IT'S FAR FROM MY CONCERN. BUT IT'S NEVER COMPLETELY OUT OF MY MIND. BUT GOING BACK TO THE QUESTION ABOUT INTERPRETATION, WHAT WE DO, OR WHAT I DO AS A CURATOR, IN THE PROCESS OF CURATING A GROUP SHOW, TO USE THE EXAMPLE, WHERE A CURATORIAL HAND IS MORE APPARENT… THE PROCESS THAT TAKES PLACE, OR THE LONG PROCESS THAT TAKES PLACE DOESN'T TAKE PLACE IN PUBLIC, THAT'S ALL A PRIVATE THING. ONCE YOU HAVE IT ALL WORKED OUT, THEN IT ADDRESSES AN AUDIENCE AND THEN IT HAS SOME SORT OF MEANING, IT HAS TO STAND CLEAR AND IT HAS TO STAND, IF IT'S A GROUP EXHIBITION, IT HAS TO STAND WITHOUT ANY OTHER APPARATUS AROUND IT. THE WORKS THEMSELVES AND



THE JUXTAPOSITIONS HAVE TO DISPLAY THE NARRATIVE OR STORY THAT IS UNFOLDING FOR THE VIEWER. SO THE VIEWER IS ESSENTIAL TO THE END PRODUCT OF CURATING, BECAUSE THE AUDIENCE DETERMINES WHETHER YOUR PREMISE, AND IT'S ALWAYS A PREMISE, YOU DON’T START CURATING WITH A PREMISE PERHAPS, YOU START WITH A HUNCH. BUT WHEN YOU PRESENT SOMETHING, YOU'RE PRESENTING A PREMISE OR YOU'RE PRESENTING A PROVISIONAL STATEMENT. YOUR AUDIENCE THEN IS THE LINKAGE YOU'RE SEEKING TO PROVE IN SOME WAY IF THAT PREMISE HAS SOME SORT OF MEANING, BY THE AUDIENCE GOING ON AND RESPONDING OR, BY SOMEBODY GOING ON AND WRITING, A CRITIC GOING ON WRITING A STORY OR WHATEVER. SO IN THOSE TERMS THE AUDIENCE IS VERY IMPORTANT, BUT DO I THINK OF AN AUDIENCE IN MIND, WHEN I DO SHOWS? NO. NOT AT ALL. WHAT DO I WANT FROM AN AUDIENCE? OR WHAT DO I WANT TO DO? I DON’T WANT TO PLEASE AN AUDIENCE; I’D RATHER… NOT MEET AN AUDIENCE’S EXPECTATIONS. SO IF I THINK ABOUT AN AUDIENCE THAT I DON'T WANT, OR WHO’S EXPECTATIONS THAT I WANT TO DISABUSE. THE EXPECTATION ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING. SO THE AUDIENCE IS IMPORTANT BUT NOT IT'S REALLY A FACTOR FOR ME IN REALLY REFLECTING WHAT I DO AS A CURATOR. WHAT I DO AS A DIRECTOR IS SOMETHING ALTOGETHER DIFFERENT, BECAUSE I NOW REALIZE, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING YOU DO, YOU HAVE TO THINK OF THE AUDIENCE. EVERY BIT OF… EVERYTHING AN INSTITUTION DOES PROGRAMMING WISE, YOU JUST CAN'T SAY, I WANT TO DO THIS, YOU HAVE TO SAY, I WANT TO DO THIS, HOW AM I GOING TO GET AN AUDIENCE FOR IT. SO IN THAT WAY IT IS IMPORTANT BUT IT'S NOT A CRUCIAL FACTOR FOR THE SO-CALLED PRACTICE. [END OF TAPE #1] PAUL COUILLARD: THE ROLE OF THE CURATOR IN VISUAL LITERACY, IT OCCURRED TO ME THAT WHEN YOU REACHED THAT POINT IN DISCUSSION THERE IS SOMETHING VERY IMPLICIT THERE ABOUT THE ROLE OF THE CURATOR IN THE CONTEXT OF THE AUDIENCE AND IT WAS INTERESTING TO ME IN TERMS OF THE WAY THAT YOU DESCRIBED THE DEVELOPMENT OF FROM “NAMING THE PRACTICE” THROUGH THAT IT SEEMED TO ME THAT WHAT THE POINT THAT YOU HIT, INDIRECTLY AT LEAST A QUESTION OF AUDIENCE, IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THE CURATORIAL PRACTICE AND I AM ALSO VERY AWARE AS BOTH AN ARTIST AND A CURATOR HOW MANY ARTISTS SAY “I JUST DO MY WORK, I DON’T THINK ABOUT WHO IT’S FOR OR WHAT IT’S FOR”. IT SEEMS TO ME PERHAPS THE CURATOR HAS TO THINK ABOUT WORK IN SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TERMS. SO IT IS A QUESTION FOR ME AND OF COURSE SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF MARNIE’S COMMENT SAYING, “ARGHHH, THIS IS A SPECIFIC PLACE, AND A SPECIFIC AUDIENCE AND I’M TIRED OF THINKING OF ALL THE WORK IN TERMS OF THAT!”



I DON’T MISUNDERSTAND YOUR SAYING THAT MAYBE I MISUDERSTOOD… MARNIE FLEMING: NO, BUT I DON’T MEAN TO SOUND UNGRATEFUL! (LAUGH). MARNIE FLEMING: IT’S HOW FAR CAN YOU PUSH THAT PLACE AND I THINK THAT THE ARTISTS HAVE TO TAKE A LEAD IN THAT. BUT I RECOGNIZE THE ARTISTS NEED DIFFERENT KINDS OF PLACES TO WORK IN AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT FOR ME AUDIENCE IS VERY IMPORTANT. I THINK ABOUT THE AUDIENCE ALL THE TIME. I CAME FROM A BACKGROUND AS A GALLERY ATTENDANT FOR YEARS, AN EDUCATION OFFICER AT THE VANCOUVER ART GALLERY AND YOU ARE ON THE FRONT LINES AND IT’S EASY AS A CURATOR TO HAVE A THESIS, AN IDEA, AND GO BACK INTO YOUR OFFICE AND RETREAT AND LET SOMEONE ELSE DEAL WITH IT. BUT FOR ME THAT’S A VERY IMPORTANT CONCERN BECAUSE I DON’T WANT ANYBODY COMING INTO THE GALLERY FEELING STUPID, THAT THEY DON’T GET IT, THAT THERE HAS TO BE SOME KINDS OF LINKS THERE WITH AN AUDIENCE. SOMETHING FOR THEM TO…YOU KNOW A PEG TO HANG THEIR HAT ON. SO THERE IS VARIOUS WAYS THAT I HAVE DONE THAT. EVEN WITH THE LAST JOHN GREYSON PROJECT, AND DIRECTING JOHN TO A CERTAIN HISTORY OF OAKVILLE THAT DEALT WITH KKK BURNING CROSSES ON THE FRONT LAWNS OF MAJOR HOMES IN OAKVILLE. IT’S NOT A HISTORY THAT HAS EVEN BEEN VERY POPULAR OR THAT PEOPLE EVEN KNOW ABOUT IN OAKVILLE, BUT INTERWEAVING OAKVILLE, ONTARIO AND HARTFORD, CONNECTICUT THERE WERE SOME CONNECTIONS MADE AND PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO SOME OF THOSE HISTORICAL THINGS THAT ARE BROUGH OUT IN THE WORK. BUT I AGREE WITH PHILIP AND IT’S DIFFICULT COMING AFTER PHILIP. HE IS SO ARTICULATE AND HAS THOUGHT THESE THINGS THROUGH SO WELL. I IMAGINE CERTAINLY, BEING IN AN UNIVERSITY ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU HAVE THESE INTERDISCIPLINARY FACTIONS AROUND YOU THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL PLAY WITH YOUR WORK. SO LOCATION AND THAT AUDIENCE AND A CHALLENGING AUDIENCE, OR ONE THAT IS GOING TO CHALLENGE YOU TOO IS SOMETHING I’M SURE YOU THINK ABOUT. PHILIP MONK: WELL YES ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE MY FIRST TWO AIMS THERE IS TO ADDRESS A TORONTO AUDIENCE THAT I FEEL HAS BEEN ALIENATED AND ALSO ADDRESS A STUDENT AUDIENCE. SO I AM CONCERNED ABOUT AN AUDIENCE AND I



INFLECT WHAT I DO TO A DEGREE TO ADDRESS THAT, BUT NOT TO DETERMINE NECESSARILY THE PROGRAM THAT I DO. IF I COULD JUST SAY ONE THING THAT I THOUGHT AFTER I MADE MY COMMENTS IS THERE’S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CURATING AND PROGRAMMING. YES THERE IS A GREAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE CURATING AND THE PROGRAMMING, BUT CURATORS ARE ALSO PROGRAMMERS. WHEN I’M DOING MY CURATING, I SAY, "I’M NOT REALLY ULTIMATELY CONCERNED ABOUT THE AUDIENCE", BUT WHEN PUT TOGETHER A PROGRAM OF CURATED EXHIBITIONS FOR MY INSTITUTION IN WHEREEVER I HAVE BEEN AS A CURATOR, YOU DO HAVE TO THINK OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE INSTITUTION, YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO YOUR COMMUNITY (HOWEVER YOU DEFINE THE COMMUNITY), SO THAT YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT YOUR AUDIENCE IN TERMS OF HOW YOU ARE PUTTING A PROGRAM TOGETHER, BUT YOU’RE NOT NECESSARILY THINKING ABOUT IT WHEN YOU ACTUALLY DO THE EXHIBITION ITSELF. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: CAN I JUST JUMP IN HERE AGAIN, SORRY. JUST THINKING ABOUT THAT LOCATION AGAIN, I LIVE IN RURAL ONTARIO NOW. I DON’T REALLY PRACTICE WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY (WITHIN THAT ART COMMUNITY). I SUPPORT THE GALLERY, BUT I DON’T REALLY WORK UP THERE, BUT I DO LIVE IN THIS OTHER COMMUNITY AND THERE IS FOREVER LIKE IN MANY RURAL AREAS, YOU THINK WHY CAN WE NOT GET AN AUDIENCE INTO THIS ART GALLERY. ON THE ONE HAND THERE IS A SORT OF SET AUDIENCE, IT IS QUITE LARGE, FROM ALL OVER THE REGION THAT COMES IN, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND THERE’S NO PENETRATION INTO THE TOWN, INTO THE AREAS. I HAVE A LOT OF INTERACTION WITH MY NEIGHBOURS AND GOAT FARMERS AND TRUCKERS AND WHATEVER, PEOPLE THAT LIVE UP THERE. SO I HAVE BEEN THINKING WHAT KIND OF PROJECTS CAN YOU DO UP THERE THAT WILL DRAW THOSE PEOPLE IN. SITES THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF GALLERIES OR VARIOUS IDEAS? WHICH I WILL PURSUE, NOT AS FULL TIME THING BUT, IN THAT CASE THAT HAS REALLY CHANGED FOR ME TOO, IN TERMS OF AUDIENCE BECAUSE I THINK ABOUT THAT. HOW DO YOU BREAK OPEN THAT DISCUSSION AROUND ART AND MAKE IT ACCESSIBLE? FOR ME IT HAS BECOME IMPORTANT BECAUSE I LIVE THERE. SO THAT IS A SHIFT, ALTHOUGH IT CERTAINLY DOES NOT REDUCE MY FOCUS TO THAT. PAUL COUILLARD: MARNIE, I GUESS JUST ONE OTHER THING, IT SOUNDS LIKE ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO IN YOUR ROLE AS A CURATOR IS TO SENSITIZE THE ARTISTS YOU’VE SELECTED TO THE POTENTIAL AUDIENCES AS SUCH. MARNIE FLEMING: THAT’S PROBABLY CORRECT. THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THE COMMUNITY RIGHT NOW. THE ISSUE OF “SPRAWL” IS A BUZZ WORD THAT SEEMS TO BE ON EVERYONE’S LIPS IN THE TOWN. THERE WAS A BIG CHARETTE THAT WAS HELD WITH DELAUNY, AN URBAN PLANNER FROM THE STATES CAME TO TALK ABOUT WHAT



IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THIS AREA NORTH OF DUNDAS. SO A LOT OF THE WORK HAS BEEN ADDRESSING THAT URBAN EDGE WHERE THE CITY MEETS THE COUNTRY. WE HAVE BUILT A PROGRAM AROUND THAT STARTING WITH ROY ARDEN AND LEADING RIGHT UP TO NOW WITH A NORWEGIAN ARTIST WHO HAS DONE THIS WONDERFUL THREE DIMENSIONAL ANIMATION PROJECTION CALLED “SPRAWLVILLE”. SO TRYING TO TAP INTO SOMETHING THAT THE PUBLIC IS INVOLVED WITH ANYWAY, BUT TO GET THEM THINKING IN A DIFFERENT KIND OF WAY. KIM SIMON: YES I THINK ABOUT THE AUDIENCE. WELL, I DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE AUDIENCE, BUT THE PEOPLE LOOKING AT THE WORK IS CERTAINLY PART OF MY CONSCIOUSNESS IN ANYTHING THAT I DO. I AM USUALLY CONCERNED WITH ANYTHING THAT I AM PUTTING OUT INTO THE WORLD AND I CONSIDER CURATING AND PROGRAMMING PART OF THAT. PAUL COUILLARD: IS THERE A BIG DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS WORKING IN AN ARTIST-RUN CENTRE VERSUS WHAT YOU DESCRIBED AS YOUR INDEPENDENT PROJECTS? KIM SIMON: YES WELL AND AS I TRIED TO MENTION EARLIER, WITH TPW IN PARTICULAR, THERE’S A HUGE PRESUMPTION I FEEL ON PART OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN THE VISITORS TO THE GALLERY ABOUT WHAT THE WORK IS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE AND EVEN ON THE PART OF THE PREVIOUS BOARD MEMBERS OF TPW. I’VE JUST COME IN THE LAST COUPLE MONTHS AND WE’RE RADICALLY THINKING ABOUT HOW TO EXPAND WHAT THE VISION OF THE INSTITUTION IS AND ALL OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH THINKING ABOUT THE PRECONCEPTIONS ARE OF THE PEOPLE VISITING THE SPACE AND THINKING ABOUT AND PHOTO BASED ART. PAUL COUILLARD: SO IS THIS THE KIND OF QUESTION THAT WOULD BE OF INTEREST TO YOU, FOR EXAMPLE? KIM SIMON: I’M HUGELY INTERESTED. I’M CURIOUS TO KNOW WHETHER EXHIBITIONS OR EVENTS CAN MAKE AUDIENCES IN A CERTAIN SENSE. IS THERE A WAY THAT PRESENTING WORK IN A PARTICULAR WAY DOES CREATE SOCIAL SPACES OR CIVIC SPACES OR COMMUNITIES? I’M NOT SO INTERESTED IN THROWING THOSE WORDS OUT AND LEAVING THEM TO FLOAT LIKE THE RHETORIC THAT THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN. COMING AS SOMEONE WHO IS A DROP OUT OF ONE OF THOSE SCARY CURATORIAL PROGRAMS WHERE WE NEVER REALLY DID GET AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUSH EACH OTHER ON WHAT IS MEANT BY PUBLIC, WHAT IS MEANT BY AUDIENCE, WHAT IS MEANT BY COMMUNITY AND WE’RE ALL WRITING GRANT PROPOSALS THAT HAVE TO USE THESE KINDS OF WORDS. BUT REALLY WE DON’T HAVE PROPER WAYS



TO MEASURE OUTCOMES, NOT THAT I REALLY WANT TO GO THAT ROUTE. THERE ARE WORDS THAT GET USED OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT ARE LOADED TERMS AND PRESUMPTIONS AND EXPECTATIONS AND I THINK THAT THEY DO END UP INFORMMING WHAT GOES ON IN CURATING. SO YES, I’M INTERESTED IN THOSE QUESTIONS. JENIFER PAPARARO: FOR ME, I DO THINK ABOUT THE AUDIENCE AND IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT PRACTICES THAT I HAVE. ONE AS BEING WITH INSTANT COFFEE, ONE HERE AT MERCER AND AN INDEPENDENT PRACTICE OUTSIDE OF THAT. AUDIENCE HAS BECOME SOMETHING THAT IS VERY PARTICULAR ESPECIALLY WITH INSTANT COFFEE THE AUDIENCE HAS TO BE INVESTED IN WHAT WE ARE DOING AND HOW TO DO THAT FOR US IS PARTLY HAVE THEM PARTICIPATE IN THAT. SO THE AUDIENCE DOESN’T HAVE TO BE NECESSARILY LARGER THAN WHO WE INVITE TO PARTICIPATE IN THE PROJECTS. SO THAT IS THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT IT THERE. WE TALK ABOUT IT IN WHAT WE DO AND HOW WE STRUCTURE OUR EVENTS. AND HERE WE JUST PUT ON THE MARK LEACHY EXHIBITION AND I FELT THAT IT WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THAT EXHIBITION WAS TRYING TO GET THE AUDIENCE INVESTED IN THE PIECE. SO MAYBE THERE IS A USER VALUE TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT. SO WHAT MY NOTION OF THE AUDIENCE IS SOMEONE WHO IS POTENTIALLY A PEER, SOMEONE WHO IS ALREADY PRODUCING ART WORK, SO MY NOTION OF WHAT AN AUDIENCE IS ALSO VERY SMALL AND VERY LIMITED. KIM SIMON: I WANTED TO MAKE THAT SAME POINT ABOUT ARTIST-RUN CENTRES IN GENERAL. THE FACT THAT THERE’S LESS OF A DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE ARTIST AND THE AUDIENCE. JENIFER PAPARARO: THAN A LARGER INSTITUTION. KIM SIMON: TYPICALLY OUR AUDIENCES ARE THE ARTISTS (IN THIS CITY). JENIFER PAPARARO: YEAH, AND WE ARE SO SMALL THAT WE CAN’T REALLY INVEST IN TRYING TO DO A PUBLIC EDUCATION PROGRAM (WHATEVER YOU DEFINE AS PUBLIC), BUT ALSO FEEL LIKE WE’RE STILL TRYING TO DESPERATELY GET A HANDLE ON WHAT WE DO OURSELVES HERE AND IF WE CAN’T, WE NEED TO FOCUS ON DOING IT BETTER IN ITSELF AND IF WE WASTE... I MEAN WE ARE SPENDING ALL OF OUR ENERGY ON DOING THEM IT IS REALLY HARD TRYING TO GO OUT AND GET ANOTHER AUDIENCE AND I DON’T THINK WE HAVE TO. I THINK THAT WE COME WITH OUR AUIENCE. BUT I DO NOT KNOW… HOW DOES THAT… OBVIOUSLY I KNOW THAT IT AFFECTS WHAT YOU PROGRAM FOR SURE. BUT, COULD I SUSTAIN A CONTINUED DISCUSSION ON THAT? PAUL COUILLARD: WOULD YOU WANT TO?



(LAUGHS) NATALIE DE VITO: BEING AT MERCER SAME THING, I AM NOT GOING TO REPEAT IT. MOST THE PROJECTS THAT I’VE DONE HAVE BEEN AT ARTIST-RUN CENTRES OR INDEPENDENT SPACES. SO I’M AWARE OF THE AUDIENCE, BUT I HAVEN’T WORKED REALLY OUTSIDE OF THAT SO I KIND OF HAVE THIS IDEA THEN LEAVE IT. I DID A PROJECT IN SHANGHAI, AND THAT WAS REALLY WEIRD BECAUSE I REALLY HAD NO IDEA HOW THINGS WERE GOING TO GO, HAVING HAD NO PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE THERE. I WAS INTERESTED IN THE REACTIONS THAT I RECEIVED AND HOW IT WAS RECEIVED. IN THAT CASE, IT WAS MORE OF A, “I’M GOING TO WAIT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS KIND OF THING”, BUT I WASN’T CERTAINLY DIRECTED. ANTHONY KIENDL: I’M VERY INTERESTED IN AUDIENCE AND THERE COULD BE A LOT OF GOOD DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THAT. THAT IS THE SHORT ANSWER. MY INITIAL EXPERIENCE WITH AUDIENCE WHEN IT REALLY DAWNED ON ME TO THINK ABOUT AUDIENCE WAS A VISCERAL ONE. WHERE I HAD MOVED FROM AKA ARTIST-RUN CENTER IN SASKATOON, SO BOTH IN AN ARTIST-RUN CONTEXT AND VERY SMALL RURAL CONTEXT, TO THE DUNLOP ART GALLERY IN REGINA, MID SIZED PUBLIC ART GALLERY IN A PUBIC LIBRARY WITH A VERY UNUSUAL, LARGE, DIVERSE AUDIENCE. A LOT OF PEOPLE GOING TO SEE THE LIBRARY, NOT SPECIFICALLY THE GALLERY. I WAS USED TO MAYBE THREE VISITORS A DAY AT AKA. WHICH I THINK THAT ARTIST-RUN CENTRES SERVE A PURPOSE THAT IS NOT TO SAY ANYTHING CRITICAL OR CRITICISING THAT. THE FIRST GROUP SHOW I DID AT THE DUNLOP WAS THE ONE CALLED “LITTLE WORLD” WITH THE MINIATURE ENVIRONMENTS AND IT ENDED UP HAVING OVER 30,000 VISITORS. I’M NOT PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN BUMS IN SEATS AND NUMBERS BUT, THE RANGE OF EXPERIENCE THAT THAT CREATED FOR ME TO OBSERVE WAS MIND BOGGLING AND INCREDIBLY AND SURPRISINGLY TO ME, SATISFYING. A VERY UNEXPECTED THRILL TO SEE TEN YEAR OLD KIDS BEING DRAGGED OUT OF THE GALLERY BY THEIR PARENTS KICKING AND SCREAMING AND WANTING TO STAY AND LOOK AT CONTEMPORARY ART. ALSO NOT HAVING TO TRY TO PANDER OR PRESENT THE WORK IN A CERTAIN WAY ABOUT SCHOOL PROGRAMS AND FACE PAINTING AND THAT SORT OF THING, JUST TO PRESENT THE WORK. SO THAT GOT ME THINKING ABOUT THAT AND CERTAINLY THE LOCATION AND CONTEXT IS ONE THING, BUT I ALSO THINK IT WAS THE RESULT OF A LOT MORE. IT WAS A RESULT OF BUILDING A COMMUNITY AND A CULTURE, BY AT LEAST FIVE CURATORS AND DIRECTORS THAT PRECEDED ME. WHERE IT WAS TYPICAL IN A SMALL CITY, LIKE REGINA, TO HAVE OVER 50 PEOPLE FOR AN ARTIST TALK WHEN THE ARTIST WAS FROM OUT OF TOWN. IT WAS NURTURED AND IT WAS BUILT OVER YEARS. IT WAS A LOYAL COMMUNITY



THAT HAD FAITH IN THE INSTITUTION. IT HAD TO DO WITH EDUCATION MONEY AND HAD TO DO WITH SPENDING MONEY AND THINKING ABOUT AUDIENCE FOR MANY YEARS AND CREATING A RELATIONSHIP. I REALISE THAT COULD HAPPEN IN A LOT OF PLACES WHERE YOU WOULD NOT EXPECTED IT. I’VE ALWAYS WORKED IN GENERALLY MORE CONSERVATIVE SMALLER COMMUNITIES (WINNIPEG, SASKATOON, REGINA, BANFF), I’M ESPECIALLY FINDING NOW THAT ALBERTA IS A VERY CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL CLIMATE. I THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS IN LIGHT OF THE FUTURE OF ART, THE PERCEPTION OF CONTEMPORARY ART BY A RURAL CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITY AND IT GREATLY CONCERNS ME WHAT THE FUTURE IS WHEN I SEE ART GALLERIES AND ARTS COUNCILS SHUTTING DOWN AND I MORE AND MORE WANT TO HAVE A SOCIAL ACTIVIST ROLE IN WHAT I DO AND SEE CURATING AS EFFECTING (AS I SAID BEFORE) SOCIAL POLICY AND ULTIMATELY LITERACY. I AM ALSO INTERESTED IN FINDING NEW WAYS TO WORK. I THINK THAT PUTTING ART OUTSIDE THE GALLERY CONTEXT, IS ALMOST A DEFAULT ASSUMPTION THAT YOU’RE REACHING A BROAD AUDIENCE OR THAT IT IS SOMEHOW MORE OPEN TO “REAL” PEOPLE. WHICH I THINK IS A DELUSION. THE GALLERY IS EQUALLY AS OPEN AND ACCESSIBLE AS THE STREET CORNER, BUT YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH IT IN A WAY THAT YOU CREATE THAT SETTING FOR THINGS TO HAPPEN. SO IN TERMS OF TALKING ABOUT AUDIENCE, I WOULDN’T WANT TO REVISIT SITE SPECIFIC OUTSIDE THE GALLERY, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. WHEN I TALK ABOUT SOCIAL ACTIVISM IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT I WANT TO PRESENT TYPICALLY DIDACTIC POLITICAL ART WORK. I THINK I CAN HAVE AN ACTIVIST ROLE AND PRESENT CONCEPTUAL ART OR PERFORMANCE OR WHATEVER, BUT THAT MY ROLE CAN BE (I GUESS I USE THE WORD) INTERPRETING. I SUPPOSE THERE’S A RISK THAT HAS A CONDESCENDING TONE WHERE I’M TRANSLATING FOR THE ARTIST AND THAT IS NOT REALLY MY INTENTION. I WANT TO ULTIMATELY, IF I THINK ABOUT WHAT I CAN DO, OVER MANY YEARS I WOULD LIKE TO PROMOTE THE VALUE OF CONTEMPORARY ART AND THE IMPORTANCE OF CONTEMPORARY ART IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT BECOMES ESSENTIAL TO SOCIETY. THAT WOULD INCLUDE CHANGING THE PARADIGM BY WHICH PEOPLE PERCEIVE ART SO THAT IT IS NOT A CONNOISSEUR OBJECT OR THAT IT IS GOOD FOR YOU OR EVEN THAT IT IS NECESSARILY ABOUT CULTURAL HISTORY BECAUSE THE EUROPEANS DO IT. I’M INTERESTED IN VISUAL LITERACY AND SHOWING THAT UNDERSTANDING ART CONTRIBUTES TO KNOWLEDGE AND INFORMATION AND LANGUAGE AND HAS VERY MEASURABLE IMPACTS ON COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT AND ULTIMATELY HEALTH. DOING THAT WITHOUT IT BECOMING WHAT THE GALLERY REPRESENTS OR WHAT THE ART LOOKS LIKE. I ALSO SEE THE THREAT OF ARTS FUNDERS BEING CUT AND PERHAPS BALANCED BY AN INCREASED INTEREST IN RESEARCH FUNDING AND THE POTENTIAL FOR ART TO BE PRESENTED AS RESEARCH AND A FORM OF LITERACY AND ART TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN THAT WAY. I GUESS THAT IS VERY PERSONAL SPECIFIC POINT OF VIEW BUT THAT’S, IN TERMS OF AUDIENCE, THAT IS WHAT I’D BE INTERESTED IN.



EILEEN SOMMERMAN: OKAY, AUDIENCE IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME ACTUALLY. USUALLY I WORK OUTSIDE THE INSTITUTION AND OFTEN IN PUBLIC SPACE. I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT NOT SUGGESTING THAT BEING IN PUBLIC SPACE IS ANY MORE…YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR AUDIENCE. BUT I THINK THAT THE DIFFERENCE IS CONFRONTATION. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE, WHEN PEOPLE COME INTO A GALLERY THEY ARE PREPARED TO SEE ART. YOU’RE SPEAKING DIFFERENTLY. WHEN YOU SAY ABOUT INTERPRETATIONAL ART BEING CONDESCENDING, IN FACT, I THINK INTERPRETING IS A GOOD WORD, BUT WHAT I THINK IS EVEN BETTER IS A WAY OF SAYING YOU’RE NOT GOING TO WORK YOUR SUBJECTIVITY, WHICH IS AN INTERPRETATION. I THINK IT’S GREAT THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT. IT’S NOT ABOUT TRYING TO BE CONDESCENDING. WHEN I SAY THAT AUDIENCE IS IMPORTANT I REALIZE THAT, AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR VERSUS THEN BEING A CURATOR AS PART OF AN INSTITUTION, IN AN INSTITUTION YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE SHOWS, YOU HAVE A SCHEDULE. AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR, YOU DECIDE. YOU INVITE AND PROPOSE. YOU DECIDE HOW MANY SHOWS YOU WANT TO DO. PERSONALLY I HATE WASTE AND I HATE THE IDEA OF GETTING BORED, JUST KEEP PUTTING SHOWS OUT THERE THAT ARE NOT INTERESTING. I THINK THAT AS AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR YOU CONSIDER THAT A LOT, MORE SO THAN IF YOU WERE PART OF AN INSTITUTION, YOU HAVE TO DO IT. WHEN YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT CURATOR YOU HAVE TO BE A PRETTY GOOD EDITOR, I THINK. YOU THINK ABOUT WHETHER YOU DO THINGS OR YOU DON’T. I THINK THAT WE DON’T JUST KEEP NEEDING MORE SHOWS. WE NEED THINGS THAT ARE INTERESTING. YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DO IT. ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I DO THINGS TO OFFER UP THE REALIZATION THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG. I’M INTERESTED IN THE SPACE BETWEEN DESIRE AND FUTILITY. YOU MUST DO SOMETHING, BUT IN FACT IS THERE A REASON FOR DOING IT? YOU DO IT BECAUSE YOU MUST. THAT SPEAKS TO NOT DOING THINGS TO KEEP PRODUCING. YOU HAVE TO BE CONSCIOUS OF WHAT YOU PRODUCE AND PUT OUT THERE. I AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT AUDIENCE BECAUSE I SEE MYSELF AS AN AUDIENCE AND A CONSUMER. I DON’T WANT TO ADD MORE JUNK, WHICH IS SUBJECTIVE; IT COULD BE GREAT TO ME AND JUNK TO SOMEONE ELSE, THAT’S FAIR. I THINK THAT AUDIENCE IS PRETTY IMPORTANT AND I DO THINK ABOUT IT OR YOU DON’T. IT DEPENDS ON THE BASIS OF YOUR PRACTICE. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: CAN I JUST RESPOND TO SOMETHING THAT JENIFER SAID. IT WAS ALL PRAGMATIC FOR ME. I WASN’T THINKING ABOUT MY IDEAS AS MUCH AS THE ARTISTS. I AM REALLY INTERESTED IN BRINGING, OR TRYING TO BRING IN NEW THINGS TO DIFFERENT PLACES ON DIFFERENT LEVELS. TORONTO ARTISTS TO GET OUT OF TORONTO AND GET ART THAT WE HAVEN’T SEEN IN TORONTO HERE. PART OF



THE REASON WHY I LEFT TORONTO IS BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, WHEN I WORK WITH ARTIST-RUN CENTRES IT IS AN AMAZING PRIVILEGE, YOU CAN REALLY PUT OUT THERE WHAT YOU WANT AND IT CAN BE CHALLENGING IN THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO IN A RURAL AREA. I DO THAT AND I ENJOY DOING THAT. I THINK THAT IT IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY BUT PART OF THE REASON I LEFT TORONTO, BECAUSE I’M NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING A CLOSED CONVERSATION WITHIN A CLOSED COMMUNITY, AT ALL. FOR ME PERSONALLY, IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT TO (THIS IS TO SUPPORT TONY) IS TO TRY TO GET PEOPLE THAT DON’T THINK ABOUT THE WORK OR TO GET PEOPLE THAT DON’T THINK ABOUT THAT KIND OF WORK. TO GET IT OUT AND FIND WAYS OF DOING THAT. IN TERMS OF SITE-SPECIFIC WORK OR A GALLERY IN DURHAM I’M TRYING OT THINK ABOUT, PEOPLE GO TO THE ARENA FOR EVENTS AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO THE GALLERY, SO I AM LOOKING AT, IN THAT CASE, IT’S INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT A SPACE OUTSIDE THE GALLERY, BECAUSE IT IS JUST NOT WORKING THERE. SO HOW DO YOU PULL PEOPLE INTO SPACES THAT THEY ARE COMFORTABLE WITH AND OFFER THEM SOMETHING THERE. FOR EXAMPLE, I DON’T WANT TO DO TRENDY THINGS IN THE PARK, OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, BUT TO TRY AND SEE THE PLACES PEOPLE GO AND HOW CAN THEY ACCESS IDEAS THROUGH THOSE SPACES. KIM SIMON: AT THE SAME TIME, I STILL THINK THAT ARTISTS ARE WORKING PEOPLE IN SOCIETY TOO. IT IS NOT THAT AUDIENCES OF ARTISTS WHO COME TO ARTIST-RUN CENTRES ARE KIND OF LOST CAUSES OR A FINISHED PROJECT. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: I DON’T MEAN TO SAY THAT. NO I DO NOT MEAN TO SAY THAT AT ALL. KIM SIMON: HOPEFULLY THERE IS STILL A NEED FOR VISUAL LITERACY. YOU KNOW WITHIN THE ART COMMUNITY AS WELL. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: LIKE I SAID, I THINK THAT’S REALLY PRIVILEGING TO HAVE THAT AND DEFINITELY YOU CAN DO WORK WITHIN THAT, THAT IS CHALLENGING AND SOMETIMES MORE INTERESTING, DEFINITELY MORE COMPLEX THAT IN OTHER PLACES. SO IT IS NOT LIKE I DO NOT DO THAT, BUT I DON’T WANT TO JUST DO THAT. ANTHONY KIENDL: I WANT TO SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THE COMMENTS, I THINK THAT I OVER GENERALIZED ABOUT SITE SPECIFIC. I TAUGHT, OR GIVING CRITS IN SCHOOL, I JUST FOUND IT SUCH A WHOLESALE KNEE JERK REACTION AMONG STUDENTS. THAT IS MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. ENOUGH ALREADY!



PHILIP MONK: ANOTHER AUDIENCE, I THINK THERE ARE TWO. THERE IS ANOTHER NOTION OF THE AUDIENCE, WHICH IS THE AUDIENCE TO COME. A LOT OF MY WORK IN THE PAST HAS BEEN, OR AT LEAST WHEN I BEGAN TO “THEORIZE”, IN QUOTATION MARKS, “MY PRACTICE”, IN QUOTATION MARKS. (LAUGH) I BEGAN TO THINK THAT THE AUDIENCE THAT I WAS WORKING TOWARDS WAS ALSO THE AUDIENCE TO COME. THIS CAME OUT OF WORING AT THE AGO AND WORKING WITH THE IDEAS OF WHAT IS THE HISTORY OF CONTEMPORARY CANADIAN ART THAT’S ALWAYS IN ARREARS WHEN THE HISTORY IS NOT IN EVIDENCE. WHEN I WAS AT THE AGO THE HISTORY OF CONTEMPORARY ART WAS NOT IN EVIDENCE, THE HISTORY OF TORONTO ART WAS NOT IN EVIDENCE. WHAT DO YOU DO IN SITUATIONS LIKE THAT? THE VERY SAME SITUATION THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEING IN PERFORMANCE CURATOR, HISTORIES TO COME. WHAT YOU ARE POSITING AS A CURATOR, YOU ARE NOT REPRESENT A PAST HISTORY, YOU ARE PRESCRIBING HISTORY TO COME. PEOPLE MAY AGREE WITH THAT AND IF THEY DO, THAT BECOMES HISTORY. THEY MAY CHALLENGE THAT AND THE HISTORY BECOMES DEFLECTED OR THEY MAY REGET IT COMPLETELY IT AND DOESN’T BECOME A HISTORY. I THOUGHT OF CURATING AS A PRESCRIPTIVE ACT, WHICH PROJECTS ITSELF TOWARDS THE FUTURE, SO THE HISTORY IS IN THE FUTURE. IT’S THE SAME WITH THE AUDIENCE. THE AUDIENCE IS IN THE FUTURE. YOU PRODUCE WORK THAT EVENTUALLY WILL BECOME SOME SORT OF DOCUMENT FOR A FUTURE AUDIENCE. AT TIMES, YOUR AUDIENCE MAY… I REALIZED AT THE AGO, EVEN THOUGH I DIDN’T GO THERE TO WORK WITH THE COLLECTION, AND I AM GLAD THAT I DO NOT HAVE A COLLECTION, OH SORRY, I DO HAVE A COLLECTION. (LAUGH) I NEVER WANT TO WORK IN AN INSTITUTION WITH A COLLECTION AGAIN. I BEGAN TO REALISE THAT IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT I WANTED TO DO EXHIBITIONS AND TO DO PUBLICATIONS, THAT IN THE END THE COLLECTION WAS THE VEHICLE BY WHICH I LEARNED THE MOST ABOUT CURATING. INSTALLING THE COLLECTION AND WORKING WITH THE COLLECTION. THE COLLECTION WAS THE REAL VEHICLE TO ESTABLISH A HISTORY OF CANADIAN CONTEMPORARY ART. THE AUDIENCE WASN’T NECESSARILY THE ADULTS THAT CAME TO IT, BUT THE SCHOOL GROUPS THAT CAME AND JUST SAW THAT THERE WAS AN IAN CARR-HARRIS, OR A LIZ MAGOR. THEY WERE NEVER THERE BEFORE AND THEY SAW THEM. THEY WOULD SAY, “IT’S IN AN ART GALLERY, IT’S ART.” AND THEY WOULDN’T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. THE AUDIENCE



WOULD SAY, “WHAT’S THAT A PIECE OF MANURE IN THE GALLERY?”… BUT TWENTY YEARS FROM NOW THOSE KIDS WILL BE ADULTS AND SAY “OH YA, THE LIZ MAGOR”. SO THAT IN PART IS THE AUDIENCE TO COME, WHO'S ALREADY THERE, YET ISN’T REALLY SELF-CONSCIOUS OF WHAT THEY ARE SEEING, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SELF-CONSCIOUS THEY ARE NOT CRITICAL OR REJECTIVE OF WHAT IS THERE. PAUL COUILLARD: THAT MEANS, CURATION USED TO BE ABOUT COLLECTING OBJECTS, TAKING CARE OF THEM, GATHERING THEM TOGETHER. OBVIOUSLY THAT IT NOT WHAT MOST OF US ARE TALKING ABOUT TODAY. MOST OF US DON’T HAVE COLLECTIONS. KIM SIMON: SOME CURATORS' EXHIBITIONS DO COME FROM THAT HISTORY AND SOME DON’T. SO THAT WAS A THAT WAS A HUGE PROBLEM AT THE CENTRE OF CURATORIAL STUDIES WAS THAT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE THE "INSTRUCTORS" (AND I USE THAT TERM LOOSELY), THEY WERE NOT TEACHERS. THEY SERVED PEOPLE WHOSE EXHIBITIONS MAKE ART HISTORY. YOU KNOW, WHY WERE THEY SELECTED AS THE TEACHERS? YOU… THINKING THAT WAY DEPENDS ON WHAT INSTITUTIONS YOU ARE AFFILIATED WITH. IT MAKES ME NERVOUS THINKING ABOUT THAT, BUT IT’S GOOD THAT THE PEOPLE IN THOSE POSITIONS ARE TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT. JENIFER PAPARARO: BUT IT CAN BE EVEN WITHIN A LOCAL'S HISTORY. AND WITH A LOCAL HISTORY THAT DID AFFECT WHAT GOES ON NEXT YEAR, DOESN’T HAVE TO BE SO CANONICAL EITHER, OR SO TWENTY YEARS. YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THAT'S IS A REALLY GOOD POINT, TO TALK ABOUT THAT AUDIENCE TO COME AND I THINK THAT WE DO ALL THINK OF THAT WHEN WE'RE PUTTING ON A SHOW OR WE’RE DOCUMENTING OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. WHEN ASKED ABOUT AUDIENCE IT’S SOMETHING THAT’S OVERLOOKED. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WOULD YOU SAY OVER TIME – MARNIE, YOU TALKED ABOUT TEN YEARS, AND YOU, ANTHONY, MADE REFERENCE TO CURATORS BEFORE YOU HAVING CULTIVATED, OR BUILT AN AUDIENCE, IS THAT YOUR INTENTION? I THINK THAT IS ONE OF THE EFFECTS OF CURATORIAL WORK IS THAT YOU DO BUILD AUDIENCE FOR ARTISTS. IT DOES HAVE TO DO WITH THE ACTIVITY BEING PERFORMATIVE, IT IS A PUBLIC ACT, AND THAT, I THINK, IS INTERESTING. IT’S THAT THE WORK MAY COME INTO BEING, IN PRIVATE OR IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE ARTIST, BUT ESSENTIALLY IT’S A PERFORMATIVE ACT IN PUBLIC. THE MORE GENERAL THE AUDIENCE -- TO SOME EXTENT, IT IS NOT REALLY TRUE BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED TO MERCER, WITH ELI LANGER -- THE DANGER OR THE IDEA OF ENGAGING THIS WORK IN A PUBLIC GALLERY IS REALLY QUITE RISKY. YOU MAY BE NEGOTIATING THAT PATH. BUT TO ME THERE ARE A LOT OF CURATORS IN ONTARIO THAT ARE ACTUALLY DOING QUITE RISKY



THINGS IN PUBLIC. WITH ART OR BRINGING ART THAT IS ESSENTIALLY BEING SEEN FOR THE FIRST TIME. IT IS BEING SEEN IN IT’S MOST INFLAMMATORY, YOU ARE POSITIONING IT IN FRONT OF WHAT COULD BE AN ENFLAMED AUDIENCE AND YOU ARE TAKING THE RISK FOR IT. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER WORKED IN AN ARTIST-RUN CENTRE, BUT I ALWAYS FOUND TO BE ONE OF THE VERY INTERESTING THINGS THAT GOES ON IN PUBLIC ART GALLERIES. IT MAY SEEM TO BE CONSERVATIVE OR IT MAY SEEM TO BE A SAFER AREA TO PRACTICE BUT, IN FACT YOU’RE VERY LIKELY TO END UP ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE PAPER OR THE COPS WILL COME IN THE NEXT DAY OR THE DAY OF THE OPENING (WHICH HAS HAPPENED) AND THERE YOU ARE, ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE PAPER. IT IS NOT A SAFE ENVIRONMENT, IT’S QUITE INTERESTING. PHILIP MONK: JOHN MAYS WROTE THAT I SHOULD BE ARRESTED. MAYBE HE WAS RIGHT. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WHEN DID HE WRITE THAT? PHILIP MONK: FOR SOMETHING PRETTY TAME, FOR BEAUTY NUMBER TWO I THINK. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: YOU TALKED ABOUT NOT REALLY THINKING OF THE AUDIENCE. TRULY, PHILIP, IN YOUR OWN PRACTICE YOU’VE HAD MANY EXHIBITIONS WHICH HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY… ENOUGH TO BE ONE EXAMPLE. I DO REMEMBER YOU SAYING THAT YOU CONCEIVED OF THAT SHOW AS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT OR PERCEIVED AS BEING SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM YOUR PRACTICE, WHAT YOU DID AT THE AGO. WASN’T YOUR PRACTICE BUT YOU WERE PERFORMING. PHILIP MONK: I DON’T LIKE TO MEET EXPECTATIONS. SO WHEN I SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THEN I PRESUME THERE WAS AN AUDIENCE WITH SOME EXPECTATIONS. WHEN YOU USE THE WORD PERFORMATIVE, I DO BELIEVE THAT… THAT THE ACT OF CURATING IS PERFORMATIVE. THAT’S THE OTHER SIDE OF PRESCRIPTIVE, BECAUSE PRESCRIPTIVE IS A PERFORMATIVE AS WELL. SO CURATING IS AN ACT, IN PUBLIC, IN FRONT OF AN AUDIENCE, IT’S NOT A PRIVATE EVENT. SO YOU ALWAYS HAVE RISK. AND YOU ALWAYS HAVE AN IDEA, SOME IMPLICIT IDEA OF AN AUDIENCE WHEN YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING PERFORMATIVE. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO… OR TOOK ON AN EXHIBITION FOR THE FIRST TIME DO YOU REMEMBER BEING CONSCIOUS OF THAT, OF IT BEING PERFORMATIVE? DOES IT FEEL RISKY WHEN YOU DO IT? PHILIP MONK: NO IT’S FUN!



EILEEN SOMMERMAN: THAT’S A GOOD POINT TO BRING UP. IT’S FUN. THAT’S SOMETHING DO THINK THAT IT IS A STRETCH AS A CURATOR, THERE’S A ROLE DEVELOPING A CRITICAL AUDIENCE. WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING INTERESTING OUT THERE YOU ARE HELPING BUILD A CRITICAL AUDIENCE. I AM NOT SURE MYSELF IF THAT IS A STRETCH. I THINK IT’S TRUE IN PART AND THAT IS WHY I WAS SPEAKING BEFORE ABOUT BEING A CURATOR IS BEING AN EDITOR. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU PUT OUT THERE. YOU DO AND YOU COULD SAY, “OKAY YOU COULD END UP ON THE FRONT PAGE.” HOPEFULLY YOU DO THINGS BECAUSE EITHER YOU THINK THEY ARE INTERESTING OR YOU THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO PUT OUT THERE. I REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH REDUNDANCY OF DOING THINGS. I GUESS THAT IS PART OF THE DANGER OF HAVING AN INSTITUTION WHEN YOU ARE CONSTANTLY HAVING TO PROGRAM AND YOU CONSTANTLY HAVE TO BE DYNAMIC AND TO COME UP WITH GOOD IDEAS AND THAT’S WHY I THINK COLLABORATION IS PROBABLY GOOD. (LAUGHS) NOT… UNLESS SOME PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF IDEAS AND THAT’S REALLY GOOD. I DO THINK THAT… DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I DON’T THINK YOU CAN BE A CURATOR JUST BY OBSERVATION, WHEN YOU ARE WATCHING A CURATOR WORK... A CURATOR IS NOT A CURATOR IF HE OR SHE IS NOT A PERSON WITH IDEAS. THAT’S PART OF WHAT MAKES A CURATOR ACT. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: YES, BUT DON’T YOU ALSO THINK ABOUT, AS YOU THINK ABOUT ARTISTS, OR ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF PRACTICE, SOME ARE PROLIFIC AND SOME ARE NOT. IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE GOOD JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PROILFIC. IT ALSO DOESN’T MEAN THAT YOU ARE NOT GOOD BECAUSE YOU ARE PROILFIC SOME PRODUCE WORK ONCE A YEAR, ONCE EVERY FIVE YEARS, SOME PRODUCE WORK ALL THE TIME. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: BUT MANY CURATORS WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT RESISTANCE, OR HAVING TO RESPOND TO SOMETHING THAT CONSTRAINS YOU. PHILIP IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THIS. ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I AM NOT A CURATOR IS THAT I CANNOT RESPOND TO PRESSURE. I LEAVE. THE GALLERY ENVIRONMENT IS SUCH A PRESSURE COOKER, IF YOU ARE IN THE INSTITUTION. IT IS A FORM OF…I DON’T KNOW IF IT IS LIKE THAT AN ARTIST-RUN CENTRE, BUT IN A PUBLIC GALLERY (ANY ONE THAT I HAVE EVER BEEN IN) IT’S BEEN HIGHLY PRESSURED, AND THE PERSON UNDER THE MOST PRESSURE IT SEEMS TO ME IS THE CURATOR. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: BECAUSE YOU’RE ACCOUNTABLE.



DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: BUT THE RATE OF PRODUCTION, WE TALK ABOUT AESTHETIC PRODUCTION, IT’S INCREDIBLE. SARAH QUINTON: IT IS ALSO THE PERFORMATIVE OR THE PUBLIC NATURE OF IT, TOO. I THINK THAT PRESSURE IS THE GOING PUBLIC OF WHAT’S BEEN GOING ON BACK HERE FOR SOMETIMES A VERY LONG TIME AND THEN THE GOING PUBLIC WHICH BRINGS INTO THE QUESTION THE WHOLE AUDIENCE MATTER AGAIN. YOU’RE NOT PUBLIC WITHOUT AN AUDIENCE. PHILIP MONK: I THINK THE FRIGHTENING THING ABOUT WORKING IN AN INSTITUTION WHERE YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO PRODUCE IS THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO PRODUCE. THAT IS PART OF THE EXCITEMENT AS WELL. IF I ASK, WHEN AM I GOING TO RUN OUT OF IDEAS? HOW LONG CAN I GO ON? PRODUCING SHOW AFTER SHOW AFTER SHOW, EVERY TWO MONTHS OR FOUR MONTHS AND THEN IT HAPPENS. THEN IF IT STOPPED, I WOULD STOP BEING A CURATOR. I’D BECOME AN ACADEMIC. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: THAT’S A FORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCE. THAT’S NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. I THINK THAT IT IS INTERESTING WHAT YOU SAID MARNIE, WHERE YOU ARE IN CONTEXT WHERE YOU HAVE TO BRING DIFFERENT ARTISTS INTO THAT CONTEXT. THEY MUST RENEW, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR MANY YEARS, BUT THEY MUST RENEW THE SPACE FOR YOU ALSO. SO I THINK THAT WHEN YOU DO MANY SHOWS IT’S GENERATIVE, IT GENERATES MORE IDEAS. I THINK THAT, YES, AS A CURATOR YOU HAVE TO BE CREATIVE AND HAVE IDEAS, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO HAVE AN OPINION. I THINK THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING. I THINK THAT, I DON’T KNOW IF ONE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE OTHER, ONE IF YOU’RE GOING TO BE UNDER THE GUN OR IF YOU WANT TO FIRE IT, YOU’RE GOING TO BE CRITIQUED AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN OPINION. I THINK THAT’S WHERE CREATIVITY STEMS FROM. HAVING AN OPINION ABOUT WHAT YOU SEE. THAT IS WHERE THE IDEAS COME FROM TOO. I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, THAT’S TRUE, WITHOUT IDEAS YOU’RE NOT GOING TO CONTINUE, AND THEN YOU GO BACK TO WHERE YOU STARTED. IS IT PRACTICE? WELL, YES IT IS A PRACTICE. IT IS ALSO A JOB FOR SOME PEOPLE. IT’S ALSO A JOB TOO! YOU HAVE TO DO IT. IT’S WORK. HOPEFULLY YOU’RE GOOD AT IT SO YOU DO IT WELL AND IF FEEDS ITSELF, BUT IT IS ALSO A JOB. YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING SO YOU DO IT. THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A GOOD CURATOR AND A CURATOR THAT’S NOT SO GOOD. EVERONE ELSE KEEPS DOING IT BUT SOME HAVE IDEAS AND PRODUCE BETTER SHOWS. MARNIE FLEMING: IF WE BUILT, OR THE INSTITUTIONS BUILT, SABBATICALS INTO IT THEN YOU COULD RENEW THOSE IDEAS. YOU COULD DO A PROPER JOB WITH RESEARCH. ANY MORE NOW I JUST FEEL LIKE I AM CHURNING THESE THINGS OUT. I



FEEL THAT PRESSURE WHEN I GO TO WRITE THAT I’VE NOT DONE A PROPER RESEARCH JOB. LETS FACE IT, MOST OF US AROUND THIS TABLE ARE HIGHLY EDUCATED, VERY UNDERPAID AND WE ARE WORKING AND WORKING AND THERE’S NO BATTERY RECHARGE TIME. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: THAT MIGHT BE AN IMPORTANT THING TO ADDRESS TOO. HOW CURATORS ARE COMPENSATED OR APPRECIATED? THAT’S A BETTER, IMPORTANT SOMETHING TO… (LAUGH) DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I THINK THAT GOES TO ANTHONY’S IDEA ABOUT THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CURATORS. PAUL COUILLARD: WE TALKED ABOUT HOW WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEORY AND FUN STUFF, NOT HAVE ANOTHER SESSION WHERE WE TALK ABOUT THE PRACTICAL…WE’RE UNDERPAID...WE’RE THIS… DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF RECHARGING BATTERIES AND I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU CAN DO IT IN THE TWO DAYS RESPITE BUT, IT MAY BE, JENIFER, WE TALKED ABOUT NOT PUTTING UP THE PROPOSAL ABOUT WHAT WE WANT TO DO. BUT I AM INTERESTED, WHAT COULD WE DO? IT SEEMS LIKE PEOPLE IN ONTARIO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO BANFF FOR ONE THING. THE IDEA SITUATING AN ONTARIO CONVERSATION IN BANFF IS STRICTLY BECAUSE I KNOW THERE ARE CURATORS IN ONTARIO THAT HAVE NEVER SEEN THE MOUNTAINS. JUST THE ACT OF EVEN PUTTING THEM IN BANFF FOR TWO TO THREE DAYS IS GOING TO RECHARGE THEIR BATTERIES, BY HAVING THE EXPERIENCE. ARE THERE PEOPLE FROM OTHER SECTORS THAT YOU WOULD RATHER TALK TO OR…WE CAN MIX CURATORS WITH SAY ARTISTS AND WRITERS AROUND A THEMATIC. SO IT DOESN’T NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE CLOSED TO ONLY CURATORS. IT SEEMED TO ME THOUGH THAT CURATORS REALLY NEVER HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE A THOUGHT THE NEXT DAY, YOU KNOW AFTER DINNER THEN THE NEXT MORNING YOU THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE AND YOU WANT TO PURSUE A CONVERSATION WITH THAT PERSON WHO IS RIGHT AT HAND. SO THAT IS REALLY JUST THE SIMPLE PREMISE. WE TALKED ABOUT HAVING LARGER GROUPS OF PEOPLE ORIGINALLY COME TOGETHER, THIRTY PEOPLE COME TOGETHER IN A BIGGER DISCUSSION WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE A PLENARY AND BREAK OUTS. THE PROJECT WAS ORIGINALLY MEANT TO TOUCH NINETY CURATORS. JENIFER HAD PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE, AND I MAY BE RESTATING IT WRONG, BUT SHE FELT THAT THERE WAS NEVER ENOUGH TIME IN A PLENARY TO REALLY TALK ABOUT SOMETHING. IT MAY TAKE A DAY AND A HALF TO TALK ABOUT, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO



GO HAVE DINNER, GO FOR A SWIM, AND THEN HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION. SO IF THERE’S SOMETHING WE COULD DO, AN ACTIVITY, OR A PERSON, OR BRING SOMEONE IN FROM OUT OF THE COUNTRY, OR AN INTERESTING THINKER THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO MEET OR TALK TO, WE WOULD LIKE TO DO IT. MAYBE A VISIT COULD SPARK SOME CONVERSATION. WOULD THERE BE ANYONE THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO? LIZ WYLIE: I WOULD LIKE TO THANK ALL THE GUESTS ON BEHALF OF THE COMMITTEE. IT HAS BEEN REALLY GREAT FOR US. AS WE GOT TOGETHER, WE REALIZED THAT WE DID NOT FEEL CONFIDENT JUST OURSELVES TO COME UP WITH ENOUGH. WE WOULD NOT BE CONVINCED WE’D COME UP WITH ENOUGH, OR THERE WOULD BE TOO MAY THINGS THAT WE MIGHT NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF, SO IF, AFTER TONIGHT, NOW THAT YOU SEE WHAT WE WANT TO DO. IF THERE ARE TOPICS OR PEOPLE OR KINDS OF PEOPLE… IF YOU WAKE UP AT TWO IN THE MORNING, AND THINK YOU FORGOT TO SAY THIS, E-MAIL DEMETRA OR MARGOT AND LET US KNOW. I’M NOT GOING TO DO MY THING BECAUSE IT’S LATE. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: OH COME ON, JUST READ IT! (LAUGHS) LIZ WYLIE: IT WAS GOING TO BE THE SITUATION OF AN INSTITUTIONAL CURATOR IN GENERAL. WE WANT ALL KINDS OF CURATORS TO TAKE PART IN THIS BUT WE DON’T WANT TO LEAVE OUT THE INSTITUTIONAL KIND. THE SITUATION, PROBLEMS AND CHALLENGES AND OPPORTUNITIES OF A COLLECTION AND WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH COLLECTING ACROSS CANADA. SOMETHING THAT ALARMS ME PERSONALLY IS… WE THINK, ALL OF US THINK, OF THE CURATOR IN THE GALLERY OR INSTITUTION LIKE THAT AS AN IMPORTANT ROLE OR PERSON WITHIN THE MAKE-UP OF THE STAFF. BUT WHAT I AM SEEING AS A TREND OF A CURATOR-LESS GALLERY. WHERE YOU HAVE EVERYONE EXCEPT A CURATOR. ANYBODY IS RUNNING DOWN INTO THE BASEMENT AND STICKING THINGS ON THE WALLS AND PUTTING TITLES ON IT. WHICH I FIND VERY ALARMING. SO THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY THRUST, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT I WANT TO GO AROUND THE TABLE AGAIN. (LAUGHS) I’D JUST LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE VERY MUCH. IF THERE ARE ANY OTHER THOUGHTS YOU WILL HAVE TO LET US KNOW BECAUSE WE’LL BE MEETING AGAIN SOON. WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU’D LIKE TO ADD BEFORE WE CLOSE? PHILIP MONK: WELL, I THINK IT’S BORING NOT TO KEEP PRODUCING, PRODUCING, PRODUCING. I COULDN’T HAVE A GAP BETWEEN EXHIBITIONS. I DON’T KNOW. I’M HOOKED! I CAN’T STOP.



PAUL COUILLARD: THE ADDICTION, THE ADDICTION OF CURATION. (LAUGHS) PHILIP MONK: I FIND IT PROBLEMATIC TO WORK IN A LARGE INSTITUTION THAT HAS THE ESCAPE VALVE OF A COLLECTION BECAUSE THEN “OH, WE HAVE A COLLECTION THAT WE CAN SHOW, WE DO NOT HAVE TO CURATE EVER AGAIN REALLY. WE DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANY CONTEMPORARY EXHIBITIONS. WE HAVE THE COLLECTION”. I LEAVE AN INSTITUTION LIKE THAT. I DO THINK, IN WHAT I DO, IT’S NECESSARY TO KEEP MOVING, MOVING, MOVING. CURATING I FIND IS REALLY ABOUT…SOMEBODY PROPOSED AN EXHIBITION TO ME AND I SAID, “COME ON, MOVE ALONG, CURATING IS ABOUT DISPLACEMENT, YOU HAVE DEALT WITH THESE PEOPLE BEFORE.” WHAT ARE YOU DOING YOU ARE JUST SHUFFLING, RESHUFFLING THINGS.” CURATING IS REALLY ABOUT DISPLACEMENT AND ONE OF THE WAYS TO DISPLACE YOURSELF IS ALWAYS KEEP MOVING TO THE NEXT EXHIBITION AND THE NEXT EXHIBITION REPLACES THE LAST EXHIBITION. MAYBE ONE OF THE VIRTUES OF CURATING IS THAT WE DON’T HAVE TIME TO THEORIZE OUR PRACTICE. WE ARE SO BUSY THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TIME. WE HAVE TO KEEP CHANGING AND OUR SO-CALLED “PRACTICE” MAKES US KEEP CHANGING BECAUSE ART IS ALWAYS CHANGING. YOU HAVE TO KEEP CHANGING BY DOING YOUR SHOWS, NOT SLOWING DOWN, NOT THEORIZING YOUR PRACTICE, ENABLES YOU TO BE FLUID AND CHANGING AND BE FRESH. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: IT COULD BE PERCEIVED AS NOT BEING ABLE OR WANTING TO LOOK AT THE PAST? PHILIP MONK: NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO THEORIZE THEIR PRACTICE. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: EVERYONE’S DIFFERENT. THIS IS WORKING FOR YOU. MARNIE WAS SAYING THAT SHE WOULD LIKE THAT SABBATICAL. I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IT’S IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT PAUSE AND REFIGURE THINGS OUT. IT’S TIME. I FIND IT REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: I THINK THAT YOU BROUGHT UP A GOOD POINT. WHEN YOU CURATE A SHOW, IT SHOULDN’T JUST BE ABOUT, I THINK THAT WAS WHAT I ACTUALLY WAS GETTING AT, IT SHOULDN’T BE JUST FILLING THE GAP. OKAY HERE IS MY SHOW AND I WILL JUST PACKAGE IT AND PUT IT TO ANY INSTITUTION. NO, YOU WANTED THAT PERSON, IT’S ABOUT RENEGOTIATING AND WONDERING, WHICH IS INFECTIOUS. WHEN YOU HAVE A NEW IDEA, WHEN YOU PUT IT TOGETHER, YOU PUT IT OUT THERE. YOU’RE INTRODUCING SOMETHING NEW. IT’S ABOUT GIVING BIRTH TO THINGS. IT’S NOT JUST COMMODITY THAT YOU ARE MOVING AROUND. THE REASON WHY YOU REPOSITION AND PUT IT TOGETHER WITH OTHER THINGS IS IN ORDER TO SHED A DIFFERENT LIGHT ON IT. SO I THINK THAT THAT ACTUALLY HIGHLIGHTS A GOOD THING,



AN INTERESTING THING ABOUT CURATORIAL PRACTICE…OR WHATEVER…SHOWS… IT IS ABOUT ONE GOING INTO TERRITORY THAT YOU DON’T KNOW ENTIRELY. I THINK THE REASON, SEEING EXHIBITIONS, CURATING EXHIBITIONS YOU REALIZE THAT THERE IS NO RIGHT AND WRONG. IT’S AN OBSCURE PLACE. I THINK THAT IT WHAT MAKES PEOPLE COMFORTABLE WITH BEING IN AN OBSCURE PLACE THAT HAS NO RIGHT AND WRONG. PHILIP MONK: CURATING IS ABOUT PRODUCING THE NEW. I AGREE TOTALLY. IT’S A CREATIVE ACT. THAT WAS WHAT I WAS SAYING TO JENIFER DURING THE BREAK, THE PROBLEM WITH INSTITUTIONAL CRITIQUE IS THAT IT IS A CLOSED SYSTEM. WHEN YOU CRITIQUE A SYSTEM, YOU’RE PART OF THE SYSTEM. YOU DON’T GET OUT OF IT. YOU’RE TRAPPED BY IT. ALL THE PEOPLE DOING THE CRITIQUES, ALL THE PHILOSOPHERS DOING THOSE CRITIQUES IN THAT PERIOD KNEW THAT WAS THE DANGER OF IT. SO HOW DO YOU BREAK OUT OF IT? YOU HAVE TO BREAK OUT OF IT BY CONCEIVING THAT CURATING IS AN ACTIVITY OF PRODUCING THE NEW AND THINKING ANEW AND THINKING THE NEW. SO WHAT ARE THE MEANS TO DO THAT? I THINK THOSE ARE THE THINGS TO DISCOVER AND I BELIEVE (AND I DO NOT WANT TO FLOG THIS DEAD HORSE) THAT THEY ARE NOT THINGS CALLED PRACTICE, THEORY AND DISCOURSE. THEY ARE CALLED THINKING. THINKING. CURATING IS THINKING. KIM SIMON: SO THE NEW TERM IS CURATORIAL THINKING? JENIFER PAPARARO: I MEAN OBVIOUSLY WE ARE PLAYING WITH LANGUAGE HERE AND YOU KNOW CRITIQUING FOR YOU IS VERY MUCH SOMETHING THAT RESTS IN A PARTICULAR PERIOD. FOR ME NOW IT’S MORE ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT THERE IS A CONSCIOUS WAY THAT YOU CAN BRING YOUR OWN PRACTICE INTO WHAT YOU ARE DOING. WITHOUT IT BEING PRIMARY, WITHOUT IT BE A CLOSED SYSTEM, BUT I THINK THAT IT’S IMPORTANT THAT IT IS PART OF WHAT YOU DO AND THAT MAYBE THERE IS A EXPLICIT PLACE IN THE WAY THAT YOU CURATE, AND YET BY JUST NAMING YOURSELF THAT COULD BE IT. I THINK THAT IT ALSO HAS TO BE QUESTIONED WITHIN THAT. IT CAN’T BE THE PRIMARY THING. I THINK THAT THE WORK OBVIOUSLY HAS TO BE PRIMARY FOR SURE. PHILIP MONK: THE NEW WORD IS CURATING, (LAUGH) NOT CURATORIAL PRACTICE. CURATING. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: BUT THEN YOU REFER TO THE ACT AS WORK? I’M CURIOUS NOW. DO YOU SAY “MY WORK”, AS OPPOSED TO “MY PRACTICE”?



PHILIP MONK: THE THING THAT I DO. THE THING THAT I DO. I’M GOING TO WRITE A SONG. (LAUGHS) PAUL COUILLARD: IN RELIGION THE WORD PRACTICE IS USED TO SUGGEST DISCIPLINE. A DAILY DISCIPLINE IS YOUR PRACTICE. JENIFER PAPARARO: I MEAN IS IT IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE? PHILIP MONK: YES ABSOLUTELY. YES, THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ANTHONY KIENDL: ACTUALLY I WAS GOING TO SAY, IN TERMS OF A TOPIC, OVER A LONG TERM, IT IS QUITE AMBITIOUS BUT, I WOULD LOVE TO WORK ON A KIND OF LANGUAGE ABOUT ART THAT’S NOT INDEBTED OR RELATED TO ANOTHER PRACTICE, LIKE LITERARY THEORY OR DECONSTRUCTION. I’D LIKE TO FIND SOMETHING THAT MAYBE INCORPORATES THE VISUAL. I DON’T KNOW WHAT THAT WOULD BE. I DON’T KNOW IF THAT’S MAYBE THAT’S SORT OF WHAT WE’RE GETTING AT. THERE IS A CONVERSATION HERE ABOUT LANGUAGE. WHEN I TALK ABOUT LITERACY (WHICH MAY SEEM ABSTRACT), THAT’S THE KIND OF THING I MEAN, LIKE A SYMPOSIUM OF,”HOW DO WE TALK ABOUT ART?” WHAT ARE OUR NEW MODELS FOR TALKING ABOUT ART? I THINK THAT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING. I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE GROUP TO PICK A TOPIC AND DIVE IN AND NOT TRY TO MAKE IT TOO GENERAL. YOU KNOW ABOUT CURATING, I WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THE LANGUAGE TOPIC, OR NATALIE’S TALKING ABOUT PLAY. WE HAD A CONVERSATION AT THE BREAK ABOUT PLAY VERSUS EXPERIMENTATION, WHICH FOR ME THAT HAS BECOME SUCH A DEFAULT TERM, WITH ALL KINDS OF CONNOTATIONS TO IT, BUT IT IS ALMOST INVISIBLE. WE TALKED ABOUT EXPERIMENTAL ART AND EXPERIMENTATION AND IT IS ALL OVER GRANT APPLICATIONS AND ART-COMMON LANGUAGE. SO MAYBE A NEW MODEL FOR THE CURATION, INTERPRETATION, OR THE PRESENTATION OF ART AROUND PLAY. I WOULD JUST PICK A SPECIFIC TOPIC AND INCLUDE ARTISTS BECAUSE I THINK YOU HAVE TO, REALLY. I THINK THE FRINGE BENEFITS ARE THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT SABBATICALS AND REFRESHMENT AND THAT HAPPENS JUST BY HAVING A TWO-DAY CONVERSATION ON A TOPIC. YOU’LL GET THOSE FRINGE BENEFITS. SARAH QUINTON: SO WE WILL ALL PITCH IN AND BUY MARNIE A TICKET. ANTHONY KIENDL: NO. I THINK THEY ARE REALLY IMPORTANT, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT IT IS GREAT THAT ONE GETS THAT FROM JUST DOING SOMETHING ABOUT AN IDEA.



KIM SIMON: I DON’T KNOW, THAT THING ABOUT HOW YOU HAVE TO INCLUDE ARTISTS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO. IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THE TOPIC IS. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE… JUST BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT JEWELL’S QUESTION WAS, “WHERE’S THE ARTIST FOR YOU?” BECAUSE SHE IS AN ARTIST THAT IS HER BURNING QUESTION IN THE CURATORIAL. THAT’S THE CURATORIAL QUESTION FOR HER, IS WHERE IS THE ARTIST? DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: EVERYBODY BEGINS SOMEWHERE. I GO AROUND THE TABLE, WE HAVE ALL INVITED YOU HERE AS CURATORS. DO YOU THINK CURATING IS YOUR PRIMARY WORK? KIM SIMON: YES, BUT JUST TO FINISH THAT POINT, I THINK THAT CERTAIN CONVERSATIONS THAT CAN HAPPEN PERFECTLY, POSSIBLY, WITHOUT ARTISTS. JENIFER PAPARARO: I DO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE SAYING THAT TOO. BECAUSE I MEAN, IT’S A COLLABORATIVE PROCESS. WHAT IS CURATION WITHOUT THE ARTIST AS WELL? BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I DO ALSO UNDERSTAND WHAT KIM IS SAYING. AND AFTER BEING AT INFEST RECENTLY, WHICH IS LIKE FUCK THE ARTIST, I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ARTIST ANYMORE. (LAUGH) RIGHT, JUST BECAUSE I FELT A VALORIZING PLACE WHERE THE ARTIST WAS ALWAYS BEING PUT ON A PEDESTAL AND THAT EVERYTHING WAS BEING RESPONDED…LIKE EVERYONE WAS RESPONDING TO THE ARTIST AND I JUST DON’T THINK THAT’S TRUE. IT’S FAR MORE COLLABORATIVE. KIM SIMON: THAT’S MY CONCERN. LIKE, WHERE IS THE PLACE TO SAY FUCK THE ARTIST? WHERE IS THE COMFORT LEVEL TO SAY THAT IF YOU NEED TO SAY THAT? IT RAISES INTERESTING QUESTIONS. IT IS DIFFICULT TO SAY THAT WHEN… EILEEN SOMMERMAN: PEOPLE ARE TOUGH ENOUGH! PHILIP MONK: BRING ME AN ARTIST, I COULDN’T SAY THAT TOO! (LAUGH) EILEEN SOMMERMAN: WITH JEWELL SAYING THAT, I DON’T KNOW… I DIDN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. KIM SIMON: NO, I DIDN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT. IT DOES FORCE YOU TO RESPOND IN A PARTICULAR WAY THAT MAYBE THE THREE SEMINARS DON’T ALL WANT TO. PAUL COUILLARD: I WILL INSERT SOMETHING HERE AS SOMEBODY WHO DEFINES HIS CURATORIAL PRACTICE AS PART OF HIS ARTISTIC PRACTICE. SO I CURATE AS AN ARTIST, ESSENTIALLY. THE WAY THAT I INTERPRET WHAT KIM IS SAYING IS NOT AT



ALL, SOMETHING DIRECTED TOWARDS JEWELL, BUT I THINK OF ANOTHER CONTEXT. I’M INVOLVED ANOTHER GROUP CALLED WITH THE RADICAL FAIRIES. THERE WAS A BIG QUESTION AS TO WHAT ARE RADICAL FAIRIES AND DOES IT INCLUDE WOMEN? SO THERE WAS A SESSION WHERE WOMEN WERE INCLUDED BECAUSE THEY IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES AS RADICAL FAIRIES (EVEN THOUGH THE TERM “RADICAL FAIRIES” STARTED ABOUT GAY MEN) AND SO THE CONVERSATION WAS GOING AROUND ABOUT, “HOW WAS YOUR DAY.”? IT IS KIND OF A SUPPORT GROUP KIND OF THING. THEN WE COME TO THE WOMAN IN THE GROUP HER CONCERNS WERE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. NOT MORE VALID, LESS VALID, JUST DIFFERENT. AND SO IT KIND OF INTERRUPTED THE FLOW OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO THAT POINT, IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION. IT WAS SORT OF LIKE, YOU COULDN’T GET TO WHERE YOU WANTED TO GET TO AS A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN? EILEEN SOMMERMAN. I UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TOO. YES, YOU SOMETIMES WANT TO BE AROUND LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE OR EVEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT COMMON GROUND. WHICH IS A TERM I HEARD AT THE BEGINNING AND I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT, WHY DO WE NEED TO FIND A COMMON GROUND? BUT SOMETIMES YOU WANT TO BE AROUND PEOPLE CERTAINLY THAT YOU CAN HAVE THIS BACK THING GOING AND FORTH. YES. I ALSO THINK HAVING SOMEONE WHO'S FROM A DIFFERENT CONTEXT, WHETHER IT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, HAVING THE ARTIST THERE, IT KIND OF BURSTS THE BUBBLE. IT JUST ALLOWS FOR… I DON’T KNOW I FIND THAT IT CAN BE A LITTLE BIT HERMETIC. JUST BEING IN AN ENVIRONMENT WITH JUST THOSE TYPE OF PEOPLE. GRANTED… PAUL COUILLARD: HOW OFTEN ARE YOU IN THAT KIND OF ENVIRONMENT? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: OF WHICH? PAUL COUILLARD: OF AN ENVIRONMENT OF JUST CURATORS? EILEEN SOMMERMAN: NOT OFTEN. PHILIP MONK: HARDLY EVER. OR NEVER. HARDLY NEVER EVER. BETWEEN THE TWO. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: I THINK THAT’S WHAT WE WANTED TO ASK IS, DO YOU HAVE AN ENVIRONMENT WITH JUST CURATORS TALKING ABOUT WHATEVER? CORINNA GHAZNAVI: IT WILL DEPEND ON THE TOPIC TOO.



JENIFER PAPARARO: I THINK THAT’S WHAT KIM WAS JUST TRYING TO SAY. NOT TO ASSUME THAT IS THE CASE, BUT LET TOPIC DECIDE THAT. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WELL, WHAT ABOUT JUST IN CLOSING WE TALKED ABOUT SUBJECTIVITY. WHAT IS THE QUESTION ABOUT SUBJECTIVITY? KIM SIMON: THAT IS NOT A CLOSING QUESTION! DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WELL, WHAT IS IT? I’VE BEEN IN A NUMBER OF OTHER MEETINGS WHERE PEOPLE ARE REALLY ANXIOUS ABOUT PUBLIC GALLERIES AND MUSEUMS (SEPARATE FROM GALLERIES) THAT MUSEUM AND GALLERIES ARE REALLY ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE. EVERYBODY IS REALLY ANXIOUS ABOUT THIS. OBVIOUSLY, I THINK WE DO HAVE TO TALK ABOUT SUBJECTIVITY. YOU TALKED ABOUT GENDER. I MEAN WHAT IS IT ABOUT SUBJECTIVITY? IS IT THESE PHYSICAL THINGS? IS IT PERSONALITY? WHAT IS IT? KIM SIMON: I THINK THAT WHEN IT WAS BROUGHT IT UP EARLIER IT WAS TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE AND WHETHER THAT’S BASED ON CULTURAL MAKE-UP OR GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION UP NORTH. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: BUT PROCEEDING THROUGH THE WORLD AS A CURATOR. MAKING THE DECISION, OR COMING TO THAT DECISION? KIM SIMON: IN TERMS OF COMING TO THE DECISION OF BEING A CURATOR THROUGH ONE'S SUBJECTIVITY? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WHEN YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT EXPERIENCE, YEAH. KIM SIMON: I AM CONFUSED. I THOUGHT THAT YOU ARE PICKING UP ON SOMETHING THAT CORINNA WAS REFERRING TOO. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: YEAH, THE SUBJECT POSITION. IT’S EXPERIENCE AND FOR ME IT’S WHAT YOU’RE INTERESTED IN AS A CURATOR AND AN INDIVIDUAL. YOU HAVE A SUBJECT POSITION THAT IS INFORMED. THERE ARE ARTISTS I WOULD NOT WORK WITH, NOT BECAUSE THEY AREN’T GOOD ARTISTS, BUT BECAUSE THERE IS A GENERAL THING THAT I AM MORE INTERESTED IN, AND SOME OTHER THINGS THAT I AM LESS INTERESTED IN. AND THAT’S WHY IT IS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY THAT IT’S A SUBJECT POSITION. JUST BECAUSE I’M NOT INTERESTED IN IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT’S NOT INTERESTING OR THAT IT IS NOT GOOD. THE CURATORIAL PREMISE IS TO MAKE THE DIFFERENTIATION. IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE…



DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: THAT’S WHAT I’M GETTING AT. WE’D TALKED ABOUT MAYBE A BOOK OR AN INTERVIEW PROJECT…. WHAT IS IT THAT WILL, OR HOW CAN WE REPRESENT REALLY THE ESSENTIAL VOICE OF THE CURATOR? IN SOME CASES, WHEN YOU HAVE HAD CHANCE TO WRITE AND PRACTICE. WHEN I READ PHILIP’S WRITING, THAT’S WHAT I READ. I’M READING HIS THINKING. IT SEEMS… IT DOES NOT SEEM DIDACTIC. IT JUST… IT LEADS… THAT’S WHAT IT IS. THAT’S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT YOU GET WITH EVERY WRITING OR WHAT THEY USE WRITING FOR. BUT IN THE CASE OF THE IDEA OF A HANDBOOK, OR NOT INTERESTED IN A “HOW TO”… ALTHOUGHT AN EXHIBITION CHECKLIST MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT SOME OTHERS COULD USE. I AM MORE INTERESTED IN, IF THERE HASN’T BEEN CAPTURED YET, THE VOICES THAT ARE SITTING AROUND THE TABLE IN THAT ESSENTIAL, CONTEMPLATION OF THAT ESSENTIAL ACTIVITY. THAT’S WHAT I’M INTERESTED IN SEEING BE AVAILABLE. MAYBE IT’S TRYING TO MAKE IT TOO CLEAR OR TO SIMPLIFY AN IDEA OR PASS IT FORWARD. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: SO YOU’RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF SUBJECTIVITY, YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT EACH OF OUR SUBJECTIVITIES. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WELL, HOW YOU WOULD, WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SUBJECTIVITY, OR SUBJECT POSITION, OR YOUR PLACING YOUR WORK. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: DIVERSITY RIGHT? FOR ME PERSONALLY, IF THERE WAS ANY KIND OF HANDBOOK, THEN DIVERSITY WOULD BE REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME. WE COULD COME TO SOME KIND OF CONSENSUS ON LEGITIMATE PRACTICE. I AM WARY OF THOSE TERMS BUT, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT PUTTING PIECES UP AND STICKING A LABEL ON IT. JUST DISCUSSING THAT, WHAT CONSTITUTES A CURATORIAL WAY OF DOING THINGS… NO, WHAT’S YOUR TERM? PHILIP MONK: CURATING, SIMPLE PRACTICE, I MEAN, THE SIMPLE THING CALLED CURATING. (LAUGH) CORINNA GHAZNAVI: TO OPEN IT BACK UP. I THINK ALL OF US HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING IT. THAT’S WHAT MAKES IT EXCITING. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: IF WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT LANGUAGE, A CONVERSATION LANGUAGE, WHAT ABOUT A CONVERSATION ABOUT EXHIBITING, MAKING EXHIBITIONS? IS THAT TOO BASIC TO TALK ABOUT?




JENIFER PAPARARO: I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN AT THIS POINT BY “MAKING EXHIBITIONS”. I AM NOT SURE. IT IS VERY GENERAL. CORINNA GHAZNAVI: THAT’S CURATING RIGHT? PHILIP MONK: NOT NECESSARILY. I THINK THAT YOU COULD DO A HANDBOOK ABOUT MAKING AN EXHIBITION. SOMETHING THAT DEALS WITH CURATING, THAT’S ALL TOGETHER DIFFERENT. EILEEN SOMMERMAN: THE CURATING IS THE THINKING BEHIND IT. DOING AN EXHIBITION CAN BE PUTTING UP LABELS. THAT’S SEMANTICS. PHILIP MONK: WELL, I THINK MANY CAN DO EXHIBITIONS. MANY CALL THEMSELVES CURATORS BUT THEY ARE NOT REALLY DOING CURATING. I DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE HANGING AN EXHIBITION AND SAYING THAT THIS IS AN EXHIBITION. THERE ARE CERTAIN PROTOCOLS TO DO THAT. THE WORK HAS TO BE LEVEL AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LABEL THAT SAYS “SUCH AND SUCH”, AND THE ARTIST HAS TO BE PAID. THERE ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE IN AN EXHIBITION HANDBOOK. BUT, WHAT CONSTITUTES CURATING IS SOMETHING ELSE ALL TOGETHER. I DON’T KNOW IF YOU CAN PUT THAT IN A HANDBOOK, BUT YOU COULD DO A PUBLICATION. WHAT ARE PEOPLE NOW THINKING ABOUT THIS THING CALLED CURATING? DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: GREAT. THANK YOU ALL VERY, VERY MUCH. PAUL COUILLARD: YES, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. DEMETRA CHRISTAKOS: WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. PLEASE SEE MARGOT BEFORE YOU LEAVE. I KNOW THAT WE DID NOT EXTEND THIS AS AN INVITATION BUT, IF YOU HAVE AN IDEA AND YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE. THE IDEAS WILL BE COLLABORATIVELY DEVELOPED. SO PROPOSE.

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VISUAL ART CURATORS IN CONTEXT THINK TANK MARCH 24, …oaag.org/unspoken/think tank transcript.pdf · visual art curators in context think tank march 24, 2004 mercer union ... i thank