steelvalleyvoices.ysu.edusteelvalleyvoices.ysu.edu/Jewish/Katzman/katzman... · Web viewLillian Katzman poses with the art cart she used as an art teacher at Garfield Elementary School,

Steel Valley Voices/ Lillian Katzman 1

Steel Valley Voices

Transcripts of an Interview withLillian Katzman on Family Lore,

Memories of the North Side, Art Education in Public Schools, and

Jewish American Identity

Submitted to theYSU Center for Working Class Studies by


Dr. Thomas G. Welsh, Jr., onMay 20, 2010

Cover Art: Lillian Katzman poses with the art cart she used as an art teacher at Garfield Elementary School, in Niles, OH, 1980. (Courtesy of Lillian Katzman)

Last Page: Lillian Katzman poses outside the home in which she was raised on the city’s North Side, circa 2000. (Courtesy of Lillian Katzman)


What follows are transcripts of an interview with Lillian Katzman, a retired public school art teacher who is a resident at Levy Gardens, an assisted-care facility operated by the local Jewish community. Ms. Katzman, who taught for almost 30 years, spent most of her career in the Niles City Schools. After graduating from Miami University (Oxford, Ohio) in the late 1950s, she spent several years teaching in the Cleveland City Schools. During the 1965-1966 school year, she was one of 200 teachers in Ohio who were recognized as Jennings Scholars. Apart from a small monetary prize, recipients of this honor were invited to attend six lectures by major American figures in a variety of fields. While Ms. Katzman’s achievements as an educator are indeed notable, our interview focused mainly on her experience as the youngest child of Russian Jewish immigrants. She explained that her parents, Abraham and Sophie Laskovicher Katzman, emigrated from Russia to Turkey several years after the Bolshevik Revolution. In 1923, with the help of relatives living in the Youngstown area, the Katzmans and their 15-month-old daughter, Dorothy, were able to resettle on the city’s North Side. During the interview, which took place on April 21, 2010, Ms. Katzman revealed that she serves as the archivist of her family’s historical documents and artifacts. Her tastefully decorated apartment is filled with items from her family’s past, including the following: silver objects her father had apparently received from patrons at his barbershop in pre-revolutionary Russia, a 1920s photograph of her father’s barbershop in the Youngstown Hotel, and a cup that her older sisters used to transport soup to their hard-working father, who rarely returned home for dinner. Ms. Katzman has also preserved important legal documents, including Russian birth certificates and immigration papers. Throughout the interview, Ms. Katzman was encouraged to consider ways in which her parents’ values shaped her own lifestyle and her choice of profession. –T.G.W.

Tom Welsh: I’m interviewing Lillian Katzman about her upbringing on the North Side. She’s going to be telling us a little bit about her upbringing, and her family history. Both of your parents were immigrants from Russia. Is that correct?

Lillian Katzman: Right.

Tom Welsh: And we talked about this a little earlier, but where did your parents meet?


Lillian Katzman: Yalta [a port city in present-day Ukraine]. My mother sewed for the czar [Nicholas II of Russia], and it was at a very bad time. My father probably opened a barbershop in Yalta, where he met my mother. And she was sewing, and they needed to get out of Russia. And he offered her a trip—which was the best offer she could have—to America.

Tom Welsh: So, she was actually a seamstress for the czar’s family…? Wow. And you mentioned earlier that Yalta was….

Lillian Katzman: …a seaport.

Tom Welsh: And also, that’s where the czar had his summer palace.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. So, many people…would come there in the summer, and maybe that’s where [my parents] met.1

Tom Welsh: And do you know what year they met, about?

Lillian Katzman: Nineteen-twenty-three.

Tom Welsh: Well, maybe a little bit earlier, because they came to the U.S. in 1923. So…about 1920, ’21?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. My mom was born in 1900.

Tom Welsh: And…why were they so anxious to leave Russia at that point?

Lillian Katzman: Well, the Jewish people were being persecuted by the Bolsheviks.2

There was a revolution taking place. [My parents] had to get out. And they got as far as Turkey, where…my mother became pregnant with my [eldest] sister, Dorothy. And [the Soviet government] wouldn’t let my father have a barbershop. They were stealing everything that belonged to the Jewish people.

Tom Welsh: Now, you mentioned the last time we spoke that your father brought an artifact from Yalta. What was that? A sign…?

Lillian Katzman: Oh. It said…. It had a leather strap, and in Russian writing it said, “This shop is closed”—something like that. I don’t have the exact translation.

1 In an earlier conversation, Ms. Katzman indicated that her father “came to Yalta on business, or maybe to open a barbershop.” – T.G.W.

2 The Russian term, Bolshevik, translates as “majority.” The Bolsheviks arose from a faction of the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party (RSDLP) that wanted to limit party membership to a core of active organizers. At the 2nd Congress of the RSDLP, held in Brussels and London in 1903, the Bolsheviks defeated the Mensheviks (“minority”), a faction that wished party membership to be extended to sympathizers outside the organizational elite. The Bolsheviks came to power in Russia in October 1917 and established the Soviet Union. – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: But the government ordered the shop closed.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes.

Tom Welsh: So, there could be no private enterprise.

Lillian Katzman: No.

Tom Welsh: I see. How long were…your parents in Turkey? (pause) Well…your eldest sister was born there. Dorothy was born there…. I think you said…she was about 15 months old. So, they were there…a little more than a year…?

Lillian Katzman: They had good friends that let them stay in their home.3

Tom Welsh: In Turkey…? And they were living in Istanbul, which is….

Lillian Katzman: …Constantinople, in those days.4

Tom Welsh: And…which family members here in Youngstown arranged for your parents to come here?

Lillian Katzman: Max Katzman. I don’t know exactly how he was related to my father. He was a builder.5

Tom Welsh: Okay. And you mentioned that your uncle, Emanuel Katzman [helped finance their journey]…. So, they arranged for them to come to Youngstown?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And they sent them the money. They got the money, and they got the legal documents to come.6 And that’s why they came to

3 Earlier, Ms. Katzman described a photo taken of her father, mother, and eldest sister, Dorothy, during their extended sojourn in Turkey. The photo was inscribed with the following words: “Two Russians, one Turk.” Ms. Katzman explained that her family was forced to remain in Turkey because it was extremely difficult to secure a visa for his daughter, Dorothy. – T.G.W.

4 The capital of Turkey was widely referred to as Constantinople until 1930, when the name Istanbul gained official currency, as part of Ataturk’s nationalistic reforms. – T.G.W.

5 Ms. Katzman later indicated Max Katzman was the older brother of Youngstown-area contractor Emanuel Katzman, whose firm built Temple Anshe Emeth in the late 1920s. (Emanuel Katzman later served as a trustee of the Jewish Community Center.) In The History of the Jews of Great Youngstown, Ohio, 1865 to 1990, (Irving E. Ozer et al.), Max Katzman is described as the owner of one of the community’s 17 Jewish-owned “auto wrecking yards” in 1927. Max Katzman’s business is listed as “K & L.” – T.G.W.

6 In an earlier conversation, Ms. Katzman noted that her father insisted on paying back his brother, Emanuel, immediately. She stated: “He was a man who had strong ideals. He felt it wasn’t right to not pay his debts.” –T.G.W.


Youngstown and not other cities, because they had a little bit of family here. All the rest of their [relatives] were killed.7

Tom Welsh: Okay. So…the pictures that you showed me earlier of the family that was left [behind] in Russia, all those people perished before or during World War II. Is that right…? Okay. And why wasn’t it possible to bring them over? [Was it] just an issue of money, or was there a quota in place…?

Lillian Katzman: I’m not sure…. They maybe didn’t have enough money for all of them. We had a candy box filled with letters. My mother had a brother who was a doctor, and I had [the letters] translated by the Russian professor at [Youngstown State University]. And I can’t remember now what they said. But we were trying to carry on a correspondence…. We would write, and she would translate.

Tom Welsh: Right. And this correspondence ended about when? Do you know?

Lillian Katzman: (pause) In the Fifties—1950, or something. Both of my parents came from families that worked hard. They were educated people. Their family, their background, was educated.

Tom Welsh: Right. Now, when your father came here—apart from the sign that you said he brought—he also brought some interesting artifacts, which are still in your apartment. Did you want to describe those?

Lillian Katzman: Sure. He brought objects that could’ve been given to him as tips by customers in his barbershop [in Russia]. One is a wallet. It…had an [engraving] in silver of an elephant, and it’s still heavy silver. And another is a cigarette [case]…and they smoked long cigarettes.8 (laughs)

Tom Welsh: Sure. (laughs) And these would’ve been given to him by…aristocratic customers—wealthier customers—in either Yalta or…. He was born in…. He was also working in Bobruisk—wasn’t he?—which is in what is now Poland.9

Lillian Katzman: Yes. And those items I treasure because I am interested in art, and I guess I’m interested in history.

7 Although Ms. Katzman provided no details about the deaths of her Russian relatives, she was evidently under the impression that they were executed by the Soviet government. – T.G.W.

8 In an earlier conversation, Ms. Katzman said that the silver objects traced back to the late 19th century. – T.G.W.

9 Bobruisk is located in Belarus, but it closely borders Poland. –T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Sure. Now, when your father came here, he continued his work as a barber. Did you want to talk about that?

Lillian Katzman: Well, he liked to be in public. He started at the Youngstown Hotel [in downtown Youngstown]. And he barbered at the hotel, where salesmen came to get their haircuts and do business downtown among the department stores, the hotels, and that kind of thing.10 He had a good clientele. He really saved his money. He got good money and good tips, because he was a good barber…. I forgot. You were interested in that pot on top of the cupboard, where my sister carried his chicken noodle soup to the barbershop on the bus.11

Tom Welsh: That’s right. We’ll take a photograph of that later. But tell that story.

Lillian Katzman: My mother would prepare meals. My two sisters, who were older than me, took them on the bus to the place where he was barbering. And he’d work late. He was very ambitious and didn’t have to go home for dinnertime. He ate there.12

Tom Welsh: Now, you’ve said there was a lot of competition in the barbershop because they all wanted to get the best customers. And your father—as the most recent arrival—had the last chair. Is that correct?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. (laughs) “Save the last dance for me.” (laughs)

Tom Welsh: (laughs) So…he had to work his way up. Is that right?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And in those days, in the [1920s]….well, the men got permanents called Marcel’s.13 And the equipment in a barbershop in the old-fashioned days was like in a doctor’s office, like leeches and spittoons….

Tom Welsh: So, they had limited medical, or health, services, too.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. And they had a man who shined shoes and sold cigars.14

10 Ms. Katzman noted in an earlier conversation that her father did not own a car, and he routinely took the streetcar from his house on the North Side to the hotel barbershop in downtown Youngstown. She has preserved several rusty tokens from the city’s old streetcar system. – T.G.W.

11 The white-and-black tin cup is one of many family artifacts that Ms. Lillian has lovingly preserved. –T.G.W.

12 Ms. Katzman noted that she was exempted from this chore because she was much younger than her sisters. She was 12 years younger than Dorothy, and 10 years younger than Gertie. – T.G.W.

13 The hairstyle known as “the Marcel Wave” was developed by French hairdresser Francois Marcel in the late 19th century. The Marcel Wave remained in vogue through the early decades of the 20th century. –T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Right. And so, this was a fairly lucrative job?

Lillian Katzman: Very, yes, very lucrative. And he was self-employed.

Tom Welsh: And you mentioned that he was a member of [Temple] El Emeth…for 50 years.15

Lillian Katzman: Yes, yes, and…..

Tom Welsh: Well, describe….. What was the importance of…the Jewish religion to your parents? Was that central to them?

Lillian Katzman: Very important. They were religious…. My mother…walked to the temple, from Cordova Avenue, every Saturday morning with a lady friend. They would meet and walk, because that was the old-fashioned way…. My parents had no car…and so, they did that. My father worked in the barbershop, which maybe he shouldn’t have done. But he couldn’t afford to close it on a Saturday.

Tom Welsh: How did your mother observe the Sabbath…? Were there any rituals, or…?

Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes. She baked bread called challah…. My mother baked the bread and made soup, chicken soup. And she always had some pastry. She liked to make strudel. That is…[a tradition that came over] from Russia. They learned how to make strudel. She made hers with apple or cherry or something.16

Tom Welsh: You also mentioned your mother…as a seamstress, made all of your clothes. Is that so?

Lillian Katzman: Yes.

Tom Welsh: And describe the clothing that you…. I’ve seen the pictures. They’re quite beautiful. But, describe the clothes that…you and your sisters had as children….

14 Ms. Katzman owns two photographs of the barbershop that was based at the Youngstown Hotel. Both photos were taken in the 1920s. The second image shows the counter where cigars were sold to customers and also features a young African American who was apparently hired to shine customers’ shoes. – T.G.W.

15 Temple El Emeth resulted from a 1972 merger of Anshe Emeth and Emanu El congregations. The Katzman family belonged to Anshe Emeth, a Conservative congregation that retained aspects of Orthodox religious practice. – T.G.W.

16 Earlier, Ms. Katzman recalled that “all the kids [in the neighborhood] came to my house for treats.” Her parents were not concerned about the fact that that their home was a gathering place for students, because this enabled them to “keep an eye on” their daughters. She added that events sponsored by high-school fraternities and sororities were frequently held at the Katzman residence. – T.G.W.


Lillian Katzman: What?

Tom Welsh: Describe the…kinds of clothes that your mother made.

Lillian Katzman: Oh, she made clothes that were unbelievable, with fur, ruffles, covered buttons. [They were] like designer clothes. She spoiled us.

Tom Welsh: And there were three of you—three sisters? And your eldest sister, you said…was born in Turkey? That was Dorothy?

Lillian Katzman: Dorothy. And she…was a fashion model, and very photogenic.

Tom Welsh: Right, definitely. And your next [oldest] sister was Gertie…?

Lillian Katzman: Yes…. And Gertie married young, to Eugene Gordon; and she took an interest in office work. So, she worked in the office of the Sam Gordon Trucking Company [in Youngstown].

Tom Welsh: So, you were the youngest in the family?

Lillian Katzman: Yes, [I was] 10 years younger.

Tom Welsh: Ten years younger than Gertie…?


Tom Welsh: And talk about how your…parents’ values kind of shaped your interests, because all of you had some kind of interest in the arts, from what you told me earlier.

Lillian Katzman: Exactly. I think mother must have done it, because of her clothes and the way they decorated their house. It was not pretentious. It was things that were old, but they lasted. They believed in buying things first-class and paid cash. Everything was cash. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: No credit.

Lillian Katzman: No credit. And that was a good way. We learned about that. When we grew up, we paid cash in everything. And as far as what my mother liked to bake that was nice, it was called mandel bread17…and rugelach.18 It’s like a tea biscuit.

17 Mandel bread (sometimes called mandelbrodt) is a light, crispy dessert that is generally associated with Eastern European Jews. The name translates literally as “almond bread.” – T.G.W.

18 Rugelach is a pastry made of cream-cheese dough and a variety of fillings, including raisins, apricots, and walnuts. – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Oh, sure, Russian tea biscuits we call them, I think.

Lillian Katzman: Right, exactly.

Tom Welsh: Right. And she baked these for…?

Lillian Katzman: …for guests who came in. And they would have tea and a rugelach, or something like that.

Tom Welsh: Now, did your parents speak Russian at home?

Lillian Katzman: Mother had a fabulous American Russian accent. My father thought we should not speak Russian. We should be skilled in speaking American. And that’s what he wanted us to do, because we were associating with children from American-speaking families. He wanted his family to be like them.

Tom Welsh: So, he really promoted assimilation?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes.

Tom Welsh: Was he at all concerned about your Russian background because of what had happened in Russia? Were there any concerns…that…because after World War I…there were a lot…of bad feelings about Eastern Europe?

Lillian Katzman: Yes, he felt he didn’t like them. He didn’t like those people at all, what they did, and what they did to the Jewish people.19

Tom Welsh: So, [there were] a lot of bad feelings about the Bolshevik Revolution…. He did value your Jewish heritage, though. And…you mentioned earlier…that you were sent to Hebrew School. Talk a little bit about that.


Tom Welsh: This was at [Temple] El Emeth?20

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. I was once married, and I was married at [Temple] El Emeth. And I worked first, when I got out of college, in Cleveland, Ohio, in three elementary schools. And….

Tom Welsh: Well, we were talking about Hebrew School, though….

19 While the Soviet Union officially eschewed anti-Semitism, many Soviet leaders, including Josef Stalin, held strong anti-Semitic views and enacted policies detrimental to the Jewish community. – T.G.W.

20 The Hebrew classes were held at Temple Anshe El Emeth, located on Elm Street on the North Side. – T.G.W.


Lillian Katzman: Oh, okay. Well, even in those days, coming out of college, I had roommates. They were Jewish. I always associated with Jewish girls.

Tom Welsh: Right. Were there any Jewish organizations at..? This was at [Miami University], I gather.

Lillian Katzman: I was a member of a sorority, Alpha Epsilon Phi. I…became the president.

Tom Welsh: Oh…president of your [sorority]? Wow…. Do you have any memories of Hebrew School, though? We talked about that a little earlier…. For six years you were at Hebrew School?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. We had to go, after public school was done. It started maybe at 4 o’clock, and we went till probably 5 o’clock, then came home, had a family dinner. My father would maybe be able to come home. Maybe he’d be working.

Tom Welsh: Right. And we kind of jumped ahead there, because I know you went to Miami University. But first you went to Rayen [High School]. Is that correct?21


Tom Welsh: And you talked…about John Benninger, who was the art instructor. Do you want to talk about him a little bit, right now?

Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes. I believe he was a big influence on my majoring in art.22

And I don’t know if he would’ve known that I would go on to become a student in art education, but that’s what I did. And I did it because I needed to develop my art in a way that I could earn a living with it, not just fine arts. But I had to take classes in all the arts.

Tom Welsh: How did your parents respond to your decision to focus on…the visual arts?

Lillian Katzman: Well, they weren’t too happy about it. My father worked hard for what he did. And he said he couldn’t afford it. And he wanted me to go, but he thought I’m just going to fool around, and he didn’t want me to waste the money.

21 Ms. Katzman also attended Harding Elementary School and Hayes Junior High School, which were also located on the city’s North Side. – T.G.W.

22 In an earlier conversation, Ms. Katzman described muralist John Benninger as an inspiring but permissive instructor. “He probably was a little free in his discipline, because the kids that took art were rough,” she recalled. “They were Italian kids. They liked art. And he was a little too free with them.” She recalled that disruptive students sometimes threw clay and paint around the room. She added, however, that Benninger was supportive and encouraged her to develop her talent as a visual artist. –T.G.W.


So, my two sisters would send me five dollars every week in the mail so I could have money for extras. And my father paid my tuition. That was big money in those times.23

Tom Welsh: And this was at the University of Miami…?

Lillian Katzman: [It’s] Miami University, not University of Miami. It is known as the Harvard of the…Midwest.

Tom Welsh: And, so, do you think your father’s…practical concerns led you to focus on education?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Now, it’s too bad that at Miami University…. It was a smaller school, maybe 5,000 students. There were very few Jewish students there. I could not date Jewish boys, so I dated non-Jewish boys. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: (laughs) There was a small Jewish population, though. So….

Lillian Katzman: Yes. But I was able to be the president of a Jewish sorority.

Tom Welsh: Right. Right. Now, you mentioned when we spoke earlier that…when you graduated, you started working in the Cleveland [Public] Schools. Is that correct?


Tom Welsh: And…there was not a lot of support for…art education at that time?


Tom Welsh: Talk about the conditions that you worked under.

Lillian Katzman: Well, there were…. We had three schools…and I had to use what is called an “art cart,” because there was no room for an extra…activity being taught in those days. When I graduated from college, I was able to get a job. That was an accomplishment—to get a job. In order to get it, I had to put up with the [conditions of the] times. And I had to go from room to room with this art cart, and the materials that the students would work with. And [on] many occasions, we worked on the floor, because I didn’t want to deprive the children of many things they should know in art. And so, it worked fine.24

23 Ms. Katzman emphasized that she was the only member of her family to attend college. “Know that I had to come out of college not being a sorority member, but knowing how to earn a living,” she explained, before the interview. “My family didn’t go for fooling around. It was too hard for them to send me to college.” – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Did you see this…? You were obviously very dedicated. In fact, at one point, you mentioned that you won an award. Do you want to talk about the award…? This is while you were in Cleveland.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. In…[the 1965-1966 school year], I was a Jennings Scholar, and I was recommended by my principal to do that. And you have the facts. It tells about it. And I was given a silver tray, and I got a small sum of money for being a Jennings Scholar. And I attended lectures, and I also got a bound copy of the lectures. One of the…lectures was by [African-American political scientist and diplomat] Ralph Bunche. And I would go on a Saturday morning to hear them, and other teachers would pick me up in their car. I didn’t have a car, then. And it was a very, very…nice experience. I think maybe Martha Holden Jennings was very well-to-do and used her money for educators. And this award was perhaps given to 200 educators.25

Tom Welsh: In Ohio?

Lillian Katzman: In Ohio.

Tom Welsh: Right. Now, looking at your career as an art instructor…and your dedication to kind of helping people learn about art, do you see this as an outgrowth of the values you were raised with? Was there a big emphasis on education when you were growing up?

Lillian Katzman: Well, I was a creative person, and I think you have to be creative in order to strive. I was very ambitious. And I don’t know the word for that. Over…?

Tom Welsh: Overachiever? (laughs)

Lillian Katzman: Right. That’s exactly it. I was an overachiever in my classes. If there was a simple thing to make, I didn’t make it. I made the hard things…. (laughs)

24 Ms. Katzman recalled that she taught in Cleveland for about six years, while she was living in Cleveland Heights. She taught simultaneously at three schools that were located, respectively, in Mt. Pleasant, Waverly, and Murray Hill. “In those days, you couldn’t find a job teaching elementary art when you first got out of college,” she recalled. “So, I had to work for the city schools. They had enough extra money to hire you.” She especially enjoyed working with first- and second-grade students and often invited well-known artists to give classroom demonstrations. The students painted on the floor, and in the absence of a sink, Ms. Katzman provided a bucket, where the students cleaned their brushes. –T.G.W.

25 The Jennings Scholar Lecture Program was initiated in 1963, under the auspices of the Martha Holden Jennings Foundation. Mrs. Jennings, wife of IBM executive Andrew Jennings, was devoted to improving the quality of elementary and secondary public education in Ohio. She established the foundation in 1959. – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: You were mentioning…. We’ll go back to that for a moment. But when you were at the University of Miami, tell us about the project….

Lillian Katzman: Miami University.

Tom Welsh: I’m sorry, Miami University. (laughs) When you were at Miami University…you completed a very ambitious project. Tell us a little bit about that.

Lillian Katzman: Well, I made a table in my interiors class [that was] 50 inches in diameter. The table was out of dark wood maple and light wood oak. There were…three parts and three parts, I think, to make this big table. And the legs on the table were three on each [part of the] table. I had to use the lathe and saw the wood, and it was like [making] baseball bats. And I’d…have another class after that. I’d take all these legs with me to the other class, and I’d work on them in my…dorm room and sanded them. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: So, this table was huge.

Lillian Katzman: It was….

Tom Welsh: And how many legs altogether…?

Lillian Katzman: Well, three, six, nine, maybe 12.

Tom Welsh: Twelve legs? (laughs)

Lillian Katzman: Yes. My grade was withheld for two years, because I didn’t have the project completed…. But I got in completed, and I got a grade. I think I got a “B.” I should’ve gotten more. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: Whatever became of the table?

Lillian Katzman: Well, it was at my brother-in-law’s scrap yard. That’s where all the family mementos were stored, like my father’s old barber chairs, and the table. And I used the table in furnishing my first apartment with my other roommates. We ate off of it. We served on it, at parties. And then, I think, it went to the scrap yard. (laughs) It was too big to be…practical.

Tom Welsh: Right. Right. Okay. Now, we talked a little bit about your time in Cleveland. You also taught in Niles. First of all, how many years did you teach in Cleveland?

Lillian Katzman: Twenty-seven [years].


Tom Welsh: Twenty-seven…years? And…when did you start teaching in Niles?

Lillian Katzman: (pause) …I left Cleveland in…[the] 1960s…

Tom Welsh: Okay. So, you taught altogether 27 years, is what you’re saying? Okay. The first part of…your teaching career was in Cleveland. And then, you’re saying, by the late Sixties [or] early Seventies, you came to Niles.26


Tom Welsh: Right. Okay. And had conditions improved much for art education? You said you…


Tom Welsh: ….didn’t have a room. You had a cart you took from room to room. (laughs)

Lillian Katzman: One of my students I got in touch with lately, he is running for Trumbull County Commissioner. I called him, Frank Fuda. He’s going to come over, and we’re going to get together. And he’s waiting till the election is over. And he was a reliable student of mine. I could ask him to pass out paper. When we painted, I could ask him to collect the dirty water, if we were painting on the floor and that kind of thing. He remembers me.

Tom Welsh: So, overall…you found this to be a very enriching experience…teaching?

Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes…. I got a lot of…. People admired what I could get those children to do. And…what they did was beautiful. I planned my lessons so well. I would stay in school [late], then, come home. And my mother…and my father were living part of the time. They were unhappy that I came home late. And by that time, I had a car.… And…I would come home later, because I had to do my lesson plans. And I would stay at school [and] display the art, because I felt that was important for the children, to feel that their work was important. I didn’t pick one or two. I displayed everything. 26 In an earlier conversation, Ms. Katzman explained that she returned to the Mahoning Valley at the time she was married. When the marriage ended, she chose to remain in Youngstown. “I decided [that, since] my parents were still alive and they were living in Youngstown, I would try to get a job…in this area.” She accepted a position in Niles, where she taught at elementary schools including Garfield and Bonham. Conditions for art instructors hadn’t improved much, however. She continued to teach at several schools simultaneously and was forced to rely on an “art cart,” in the absence of a stable classroom. Despite these limitations, she exposed her students to a variety of media, including painting, sculpture, and ceramics. – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Did you see this interest in the arts, and this emphasis on education, as being part of your ethnic and religious background, in any way?

Lillian Katzman: (pause) Well, I don’t know that it had…much of a focus on my religious training. My high school…. I went to a wonderful high school, Rayen [High School], which [was] like a college…. We had wonderful teachers. And I really was lucky to go to that school. And that school was on Cordova Avenue, where my parents bought their home. And my father bought that home with cash. (laughs) No credit.

Tom Welsh: (laughs) We’ll put this another way: Did your parents promote education and awareness of the arts?

Lillian Katzman: Well, not of the arts. They felt education was good. They felt art was silly. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: (laughs) But the education…. They emphasized education.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. I was the first generation to go to college.

Tom Welsh: Right. Right. And talk a little bit about how your religious background remained important to you later in life.

Lillian Katzman: Okay, I light those Sabbath candles on Friday night at Levy Gardens. I did it in my apartment as a single girl, with roommates. We did all that, because we were influenced in our home to do it. The woman in the house would do that. And I now go to Sabbath services at Heritage Manor, on the weekend. And…does that answer your question?

Tom Welsh: Yes. But also, looking at these things you prepared [on] your family history…. And…you’ve spent a lot of time. You said you’ve put together a lot of these booklets on family history…. Your mother…used her skills as a seamstress to help you put this together. So, apparently you value that heritage. Talk a little about why you feel…it’s important to preserve this history that some people take for granted. Some people let these things….


Tom Welsh: …go by the wayside.


Tom Welsh: Why is that important to you?


Lillian Katzman: Well, my family couldn’t get over that I would prepare scrapbooks like that. And I enjoy doing it. And that’s mostly…. I wanted to prepare it before everybody died, and I wouldn’t have anybody to get my information from.

Tom Welsh: But why is that important to you? It’s not important to everybody. Why do you feel it’s so important to preserve that history, and also the visual images…of family members? Why do you think that’s something that is important to your extended family? (brief pause) You’re not sure?

Lillian Katzman: No…. Well, I have it. I knew that it…. Maybe because I knew my parents had it, and I didn’t want it to go by the wayside. If I didn’t do it, no one else would do it. My sisters wouldn’t do it. And that’s where my art background, I think, came into being. I wanted to keep it for the future. And right now, I’m…the person in my family that my nephews and nieces could go to get information, because I have it all. And since I got the information ready for [you], I learned that I do have it. I…forgot that I had a lot of important papers.

Tom Welsh: (brief pause) And talk a little bit about how you were able to find some of these papers. You have…the legal document in which a member of the extended family—this would’ve been Max Katzman—more or less, in a sworn testimony, said that he would help your parents resettle in the United States. You have your mother’s birth certificate from Yalta. Is that correct? Where did you find all these things? Some of them…I imagine, were preserved. But, where did you find them? Talk about how you assembled all these things.

Lillian Katzman: I guess they were in flimsy scrapbooks in the attic, and I made sure to get them before they would deteriorate.

Tom Welsh: Right. And what about documents that…? Some of those documents weren’t in your parents records, though. Right? You didn’t….


Tom Welsh: And where did you get those?

Lillian Katzman: Well, they were up in the attic.

Tom Welsh: Oh, they were all…preserved.

Lillian Katzman: And I got them, and my father looked at them. But he didn’t like to look at them. That was a sad time in his life.

Tom Welsh: Right, the period in Russia?


Lillian Katzman: Yes. Yes. He didn’t want me to do it, and I wanted to. And when my dad passed away, my mother was happy with me that I wanted to do it.

Tom Welsh: Right. Why do you think your father resisted it…?

Lillian Katzman: In what?

Tom Welsh: Why do you think your father was not as happy with this project?

Lillian Katzman: Because that was a terrible time for him in Russia—escaping, no work, and getting passage to come over to America…. And…he was not treated right. He was fleeing for his life. And so, that was very hard. And he left most of his relatives over there.

Tom Welsh: Some of whom…were killed, you said….


Tom Welsh: Okay. Why do you think your mother’s attitude toward the [family] history was different?

Lillian Katzman: Well, she was proud of what she did, and the fact that she could be called on to sew for a famous person, the czar. And she lived on the Black Sea, which was a scenic place to grow up.

Tom Welsh: Did she ever share any of her memories of growing up in Yalta?

Lillian Katzman: Unfortunately, not. I wish I had asked her more. I would’ve liked to. Maybe some of the younger children in our family, the nieces and nephews, know more about that than I do. They would have conversations, which I didn’t know [about].

Tom Welsh: Right. Your father talked a little more about it?

Lillian Katzman: No, not really. My father was a very quiet man, whereas my mother was more outgoing.

Tom Welsh: Right. But neither of them talked much about…the old country, about Russia?

Lillian Katzman: No. No. No.

Tom Welsh: Right…. What do you see as being one of the greatest gifts that you received from…having two parents who were born in another country?


Lillian Katzman: Well, one thing is that I grew up with [an impulse] to excel, to exceed [expectations], because they did it in their own way. And…that is a gift from them to me: my attitude. It’s wonderful.

Tom Welsh: So, a willingness to…face obstacles?

Lillian Katzman: Yes…. Excellent way you put it. I have had obstacles in my life, and I faced them, and I’ve come through. And…you know, my sisters helped me a lot, and I am grateful for them.

Tom Welsh: What did you see…? How has your religious faith helped you over the years…?

Lillian Katzman: Well, I still carry it on, even though I’m Americanized. (laughs) And I’m…not so religious, really. But I carry it on. And I’m amazed at myself, at what I’m doing. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: Right. Now, you had the experience of growing up…in the house on Cordova [Avenue]. And then, many, many years later—after teaching in Cleveland and coming back to the area—you went back and lived in that house. What kinds of changes did you see in the North Side, between the time you were growing up and the time you returned to live in…the house that had been your parents’ home?

Lillian Katzman: Okay. (leafs through an album and points to photograph of herself with an African-American neighbor) Now, this is a picture of one of the neighbors. The neighborhood became Black.

Tom Welsh: Okay. Okay. So, there were a lot of demographic changes…?

Lillian Katzman: (indicates agreement) Now, you have the photograph of my home—still a nice home.

Tom Welsh: Oh, yes, a beautiful home.

Lillian Katzman: I took care of it, before I moved into Levy Gardens. And I had people who did all the work. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: Yes, right, right. So, there were demographic changes in the neighborhood? [Where there] any other changes that you’ve seen on the North Side over the past few decades?


Lillian Katzman: Well, when I first went to that street, there were families living there.27 After that, there were more duplexes, and [the residents] were not as culture-minded. I was more cultural.

Tom Welsh: So, you saw…a difference in the economic status [of residents]—more single people, or people without children, or with very young children?

Lillian Katzman: Very young children. And, people who lived there [in the past] held jobs; they worked in the mills.

Tom Welsh: Okay…. What about …? When you were growing up, there was a fairly strong Jewish community on the North Side, too. How has that changed over the years?

Lillian Katzman: I don’t…. They have moved to Liberty [Ohio].

Tom Welsh: Okay, so, [there is] not as…strong a Jewish community on the North Side?

Lillian Katzman: No. No. No. Before I moved to Levy Gardens, there were still Jewish people on the North Side. Now there are not.

Tom Welsh: Right. Okay. And what were the circumstances that led to you deciding—because you kept the home [on Cordova Avenue] for a long time…. Right…? What were the circumstances that led you to decide to move into Levy Gardens?

Lillian Katzman: Okay, I had some bad luck. I had a robbery. All my jewelry was taken. And I had very expensive jewelry that I paid for with my own money. They knew when to come, and I never got it back. So, my nephew, Brian, decided that I should move. That neighborhood wasn’t good for me anymore.

Tom Welsh: Right. If you were to pick…one of the most pleasant memories from your childhood, what would that memory be?

Lillian Katzman: Being with my sisters. (laughs) Here, there’s a picture of my [two] sisters. (shows picture of herself with two sisters) I was so…. I just loved them to pieces. They were…my guiding star. I mean, Dorothy and Gertie, and…. I was the youngest. If I could be with them, that was who I wanted to be with.

27 Earlier, Ms. Katzman recalled that, during her childhood, her neighborhood was made up of working-class families with young children. The Katzman’s home, which was located at 2242 Cordova Avenue, “had a big backyard that connected with Fifth Avenue” and was a gathering place for young people. Ms. Katzman noted that only two Jewish families lived in her immediate neighborhood. Most of her neighbors belonged to St. Edward’s Church. Few African Americans lived in the neighborhood at the time, she added. – T.G.W.


Tom Welsh: Right, that’s wonderful. Can you think of a specific memory involving your sisters that’s especially…?

Lillian Katzman: Well, they would let me go along…. It was like in the Forties. The soldiers came to our backyard…during the war. And they brought me presents, because I was so much younger. And I was a big shot…. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: (laughs) You felt important?

Lillian Katzman: Yes. And my sisters took me out with them. We’d go shopping to the nice stores in downtown Youngstown, and in Warren [Ohio]. And they’d take me out to lunch and dinner. They were really good to me, and gave me a lot of encouragement about my art—that kind of thing.

Tom Welsh: And one of your sisters is living now in…?

Lillian Katzman: Heritage [Manor].

Tom Welsh: Dorothy is in Heritage Manor, now….

Lillian Katzman: Yes, yes, she’s doing very well, very well. She once was living with [my nephew] Brian in Columbus, where Brian is from.

Tom Welsh: Right…. I’m noticing, though, that both of you chose to live in…assisted-care facilities, and they’re both run by…the Jewish community. Right…? Why did you feel it was important…? Because both of you gravitated toward those kinds of situations. Why did you feel that was important?

Lillian Katzman: Because that’s all that Youngstown had. Levy Gardens is fairly new, and there’s that big addition that they’re now building…. Do you know about it?

TomWelsh: No, tell me about it.

Lillian Katzman: It’s right across the hall. It’s going to…be available for activities for about 70 people.

Tom Welsh: Oh, wow.

Lillian Katzman: Yes. Oh, it’s really something. They’re putting a lot of money into Levy Gardens.

Tom Welsh: Right. And how do you like staying here?

Lillian Katzman: Oh, I like it very much. I’m very, very enthusiastic. I come down to breakfast singing, “What a wonderful world….” (laughs) I like it…. There were


times that I didn’t like it. But I’ve learned how to like assisted living. I learned that [in] assisted living, you cannot expect other people to do things for you. You must do for yourself, and they will help you. But you learn how to do it. And…I’m reading a wonderful book now, the life of Frank Lloyd Wright, the architect—Loving Frank. And it’s wonderful. And I’m getting back into painting, again. And I’ve picked up blossoms and decorated my apartment, so I’ll have subject matter for painting. And those are the extra things I do for myself. I participate when the group goes out for meals. We’re going to go to Drakes Landing, up there in…. Do you know about it?

Tom Welsh: Tell me about it. Drakes Landing?

Lillian Katzman: Oh, it’s on West [Western Reserve Road], near White House Fruit Farm, and it’s built on an island, and there’s all the geese walking around. And it’s very scenic, and they have good food, and it’s not that expensive. So, I like it. I recommend it, for you and your wife….

Tom Welsh: Sounds wonderful. Well, is there anything you can think of that’s still part of your life today that you see as being something you learned from your parents?

Lillian Katzman: I think they’d be proud of me—I guess—that I can get along on my own. And I think [my nephew] Brian would get along with me. Oh, he tells me all the time, “Don’t spend too much money.” (laughs) But that’s his warning. (laughs)

Tom Welsh: But, I’m thinking maybe about the fact that you surround yourself with beauty, you know, the flowers…. It’s a very beautiful apartment. Is this something you feel is kind of a legacy of…your mother, in particular?

Lillian Katzman: Yes…. Well, like, when I came back to Youngstown to my home, they needed a moving van to move me, with the king-size bed, dressers. And I moved with all the stuff. And I didn’t want to leave it go, and my parents ending up enjoying it…while they were still living. And I had to take the junky furniture, and I wanted them to have [my furniture].

Tom Welsh: Right. The only thing we didn’t talk about—and I don’t know why we overlooked it—but we were going to talk a little bit about your uncle, Emanuel Katzman, who played a big role in helping your parents come over. And…would you like to share some of the history of his career here in Youngstown? He was a very important builder.28

28 Earlier, Ms. Katzman noted that her uncle, Emanuel Katzman, “married into the Friedman family from Cleveland, who owned iron and steel [manufacturing plants].” She described Mrs. Emanuel Katzman as a “fancy lady” who sported “blue hair,” which was considered stylish in the early 20th century. – T.G.W.


Lillian Katzman: Yes. He built bridges like the Mahoning Avenue Bridge, and places like the Jewish Community Center [on the North Side of Youngstown], Temple El-Emeth. And he learned from his brother before him that business. He was building bridges, things like that.

Tom Welsh: This was Max [Katzman]?

Lillian Katzman: Max.

Tom Welsh: His brother?

Lillian Katzman: Uh-huh.

Tom Welsh: Right. Okay….

Lillian Katzman: Does that answer the question?

Tom Welsh: Sure, that’s fine. [Is there] anything you’d like to add, Lillian? This has been a pleasant conversation, very informative. Anything…you wanted to add before we wrap up?

Lillian Katzman: I wanted to tell you about that pot that’s up in the kitchen—you can get it down—where my sisters brought my father the dinner….

Tom Welsh: Well, we’ll take a photograph of that right now. I think you told that story, about how they…. Is there anything else you wanted to add that you can think of? Is there something that…is especially memorable about your childhood, or your teaching career? [Is there] anything that you wanted to add?

Lillian Katzman: (brief pause) Well, I think I’ve been…was a super teacher, and….

Tom Welsh: Is there an experience, or a particular student, that stands out in your memory as…? You talked about Frank Fuda. But [is there] any experience that stands out in your mind as especially memorable?

Lillian Katzman: I have wonderful caregivers. (shows photograph of caregiver) This is one, who’s Sylvia. She was with me on Cordova [Avenue], and then, she’s still my caregiver one day a week. I get my hair done on Wednesday, and then she goes with me into any doctor appointments. She drives me. I don’t drive anymore, but I still have the car…. It’s 15 years old…a Toyota Camry, with the moon roof. And it’s in the car port here.

Tom Welsh: So, you still have your car?


Lillian Katzman: Oh, yes, yes. And eventually, we’ll probably give it to my niece. But she said: “Oh, Aunt Lillian, I’ll have a…car, myself, by the time you’re done using it. You’re still using that car, even though now it’s 15 years old.” (laughs)

Tom Welsh: (laughs) Well, thanks so much, Lillian. And we’ll take a photo of that pot right now….

Documents

steelvalleyvoices.ysu.edusteelvalleyvoices.ysu.edu/Jewish/Katzman/katzman... · Web viewLillian Katzman poses with the art cart she used as an art teacher at Garfield Elementary School,