Transcript of the Testimony of EAGLE SUMMIT, III March 20 ... · Transcript of the Testimony of EAGLE SUMMIT, III March 20, 2014 vs. Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R. Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R

Transcript of the Testimony of

EAGLE SUMMIT, IIIMarch 20, 2014

vs.

Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R.

Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R.

Hansen and Company, Inc.Registered Professional Reporters

1600 Broadway, Ste. 470Denver, Colorado 80202

Phone (303) 691-0202 * Fax(303) 691-2444


(303) 691-0202 * (303) 691-2444Hansen & Company, Inc. Registered Professional Reporters

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EAGLE SUMMIT III

DENVER, COLORADO

MARCH 20, 2014

GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT CONSULTATIONS

This hearing was held at Rocky Mountain Arsenal

National Wildlife Refuge, 6550 Gateway Road, Commerce City,

Colorado 80022, on March 20, 2014, at 2:55 p.m., before

Doreen Girdeen, Registered Merit Reporter and Notary Public

within Colorado.



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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2

3 Noreen WalshSteve Olberholtzer

4 Matt HoganClint Riley

5 Adam ChavezAlbino Lujan

6 Bernard ChavezDarrell Shay

7 Daryl CandelariaDelbert Sanchez

8 Jess C. GutierrezLee Juan Tyler

9 Mark RoundstoneRobyn Spain

10 Terry G. KnightWinfield Russell

11 William VoelkerWilfred Ferris

12 Gerald RowlandYolynda Begay

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page insert by Ivy Allen 4/1/2014.**Page added to note the consultation participant’s Tribe.

Adam Chavez, Pueblo of San FelipeAlbino Lujan, Taos PuebloBernard Chavez, Pueblo of San FelipeDarrell Shay, Shoshone Bannock TribeDaryl Candelaria, Pueblo of San FelipeDelbert Sanchez. Pueblo of San FelipeJess C. Gutierrez, Santa Clara PuebloLee Juan Tyler, Shoshone-Bannock TribesMark Roundstone, Northern Cheyenne TribeRobyn Spain, Northern Cheyenne TribeTerry G. Knight, Ute Mountain Ute TribeWinfield Russell, , Northern Cheyenne TribeWilliam Voelker, Comanche Wilfred Ferris, Eastern ShoshoneGerald Rowland, Northern CheyenneRaymond Lasley, Osage Nation



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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MS. BEGAY: The person who is going to appear to

3 do the consultation. She is from the Fish and Wildlife.

4 And we actually have four subsets you will be consulting

5 with today.

6 Noreen.

7 MS. WALSH: Thank you very much, Yolynda.

8 And I just want to start with a few notes of

9 thanks this afternoon. First, I really wanted to thank

10 Mr. Rick William -- if you're still in the room. I

11 appreciated his humor -- the humor of his stories this

12 afternoon at lunchtime.

13 And then I also really wanted to thank Mr. Alvin

14 Windy Boy. There he is. I really appreciated your

15 comments. Alvin, you've got me thinking about -- through

16 your stories and the history you've shared with us, you've

17 got me thinking about division; the word "division" and what

18 divides us or maybe what can unite us. And you also got me

19 thinking about the word "consultation" and what does that

20 word that we throw around really mean.

21 And then this gentleman --

22 SPEAKER: (Indiscernible)

23 MS. WALSH: I'm not sure that's the gentleman that

24 I'm referring to, but somebody made a comment about do we

25 mean -- it was you -- do we all mean the same thing when we



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1 talk about a "consultation"? When we use that word, do we

2 mean the same thing? So that really got me thinking at

3 lunchtime.

4 And then I really want to thank the Native

5 American Fish and Wildlife Society and Fred Matt and the

6 whole Society for providing such a delicious lunch for us.

7 I ate too much, I confess. And now, there's a new pot of

8 coffee brewing for anybody else who might need that this

9 afternoon.

10 So, over the last hour, I think we had a chance to

11 break bread together, which I think is always a good thing

12 to do, and a chance to laugh a little bit together, which I

13 always think is helpful. Now, we've done both of those

14 things. I hope it's a good time to actually start our

15 formal government-to-government consultation.

16 Through the whole conversation this morning, I

17 heard, very clearly, about how everything that the U.S. Fish

18 and Wildlife Service does relative to eagles impacts you at

19 the very core of your being because of the special

20 significance that eagles have to you and to the Creator and

21 the relationship between that. So we know that when we are

22 contemplating changes in our policies or regulations that

23 that has a significance to you, and that's why we're here

24 today.

25 We also heard about respect. We heard from -- I



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1 think it was Mr. Rick Williams during his stories, who

2 talked about consulting with respect. And that's our

3 intention here today is to have respect with you in this

4 consultation. And part of that is not rushing.

5 And so you-all may have noticed we are way behind

6 our schedule. What I'd like to do is ask if -- we are not

7 going to be able to get through all of the issues that we

8 had on our list for consultation today, and they're all

9 important issues because they're all changes that the

10 Service is contemplating making. They're not changes we

11 have already made; they're changes we are contemplating that

12 we need your input about. And so if we can't get through

13 all of those in the next couple of hours, we, the Service

14 leadership, will come back tomorrow morning and continue

15 this consultation for a couple of hours with you then.

16 So I'd ask you to think about that and maybe we

17 can check in near the end of our time together today and see

18 if we need to do that; see if we need to continue tomorrow

19 while you're all here. So I make that offer because you-all

20 have shown us respect to come here, where we are, in Denver,

21 to have this conversation with us. And I don't want to

22 conclude the consultation prematurely. So thank you very

23 much.

24 And just as we get started, I want to reintroduce

25 the folks that I have with me to consult with you today.



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1 So, again, at the end of the table is my deputy regional

2 director. So he's second in command over this region of the

3 Fish and Wildlife Service, Matt Hogan.

4 Next to him is Clint Riley. Clint is over our

5 Migratory Birds program, which means he is our technical

6 expert on eagles. So as we go into this consultation today,

7 Clint will lead us through these issues that we're proposing

8 or contemplating changing and give you some background on

9 those. And then we want to hear your reaction.

10 And, lastly, Steve Olberholtzer, who will join us

11 again in a minute. You-all heard from him quite a bit this

12 morning and you know that he is our special agent in charge

13 of law enforcement. The four of us are here today to listen

14 to you. Thank you.

15 Yolynda, I'll give it back to you.

16 MS. BEGAY: All right. I want to thank you all

17 for -- for helping us this time. And like said, you know,

18 we're all willing to come back tomorrow morning to finish up

19 the pieces that we do need to talk about.

20 There are six items that we do have. They are the

21 management of depredating eagles, golden eagle

22 rehabilitation, allowing captive propagation of golden

23 eagles, policy on eagle carcass disposition, revising the

24 2009 eagle take regulations, and then the Chokecherry-Sierra

25 Madre wind project permit application. Those are some of



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1 the things that we have on the table. And we know that all

2 of those are important to the topic that we have here today,

3 which is why we offered to come back tomorrow.

4 What I want to do is -- because you all have

5 heard, you know, Noreen, also Steve, Clint and Matt, where

6 they are coming from, I think it would only be right for you

7 to tell us where you're coming from, your name, your title,

8 and what tribe you're coming from. So that way, we know

9 who's at the table and we can see -- and they also know

10 who's here on the table with them.

11 MR. RUSSELL: My name is Winfield Russell. I'm a

12 vice president of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe. And I have

13 three people with me from our tribe -- from the program and

14 are involved in this program that we talk about eagles. So

15 I'll have them introduce themselves.

16 MR. ROUNDSTONE: I'm Mark Roundstone. I'm the

17 acting director for the Northern Cheyenne Natural Resource.

18 MS. SPAIN: Hi. My name is Robyn Spain. I'm the

19 assistant to Mark Roundstone, the Natural Resource director.

20 MR. ROWLAND: Hello. My name is Gerald Rowland,

21 Northern Cheyenne.

22 MR. LUJAN: Good afternoon. My name is -- my

23 taxpayer's name is Albino Lujan. And I'm from Taos, New

24 Mexico; Taos Pueblo. I hold the office of war chief

25 lieutenant of my tribe.



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1 MR. OLDMAN: Good afternoon. My name is Ron

2 Oldman. Also, that's my given name; my government name, I

3 guess. My Arapaho name is (indiscernible), which is very

4 difficult to translate. But I'm the co-chair of the

5 Northern Arapahoe Tribe.

6 THE REPORTER: Could you spell that?

7 MR. OLDMAN: No, I can't.

8 MR. LASLEY: My name is Raymond Lasley. I'm

9 representing the Osage Nation. I am the -- one of the

10 senior executive advisors for the Osage Nation. And on

11 behalf of Chief Big Horse and the rest of the -- the

12 assistant principal chief, Terry Moore, and the Osage Nation

13 Congress, we just want to extend our appreciation for having

14 this consultation here. Thank you.

15 MR. TYLER: Good afternoon again. My name is Lee

16 Juan Tyler. I'm from the Shoshone Tribe for all Idaho. And

17 my treaty was reached in the 1860s when it was ratified. We

18 had about 12 treaties for different bands and groups. We

19 had another ratified treaty in Montana as well, River Forks

20 area, and to this day, we have treaty rights to go hunting.

21 And so that is very awesome for my past leaders. So -- so

22 this is not really a true consultation because I'm only one

23 councilman here. But I'll do my best.

24 And I know -- what I was going to say earlier was

25 the trade people -- and that was mentioned earlier -- that



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1 it's really, you know -- that's really with the humblest

2 respect; no racial -- racial thoughts. And that's not going

3 to amend things. That has to be educated in all areas, not

4 just this. But in every type of situation that -- that

5 comes to our people. And that's -- that's where it's wrong

6 right now.

7 I had my nephew almost killed -- boom, boom --

8 shot twice in the head back here during Thanksgiving by a

9 Pocatello city officer that chased him to the reservation

10 and tried to kill him. And he's still in the court. But he

11 survived through prayer.

12 And he had his box with his sun dance whistles in

13 the back and his feathers, and then that protected him and

14 through prayer. And he told me a story how he came up and

15 his body and that he came back alive. He (indiscernible).

16 He's -- he's okay now, but he lost his voice.

17 But, see, some of that, that's going on, the

18 racial is still going. That has to end. And we're going to

19 have a true -- get something really established. It's not

20 going to work if we had our own people sitting in this room

21 -- not you guys -- but it might be somebody in here that we

22 can't -- we've got to be careful; we can't trust. That's

23 difficult. And that's going to have to change if this is

24 going to work. And right now, it's not going to work if we

25 don't get the right people involved in these key-area jobs



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1 that's going to come meet with our people. Thank you.

2 MR. SHAY SHOWBAN: Darrell Shay Showban. I'm in

3 charge of the language and cultural preservation for our

4 tribe. And, you know, I'm kind of the technical assistant

5 to my councilman. So I do have -- I have been a former

6 councilman and I have been around dealing with the federal

7 government.

8 I don't like to deal with the state governments

9 because, in my opinion, they're -- they're inferior to the

10 status of, you know, treaty tribes. And, you know, I just

11 kind of -- a long, long time dealing with, I guess, this

12 bureaucratic-type stuff. That's why some of my -- I don't

13 know if you call it animosity -- but some of my concerns

14 about how these things develop, just like -- just like this

15 whole thing.

16 You know, the very first thing is, the Fish and

17 Wildlife Services is contemplating these changes. Why? You

18 know, why are they contemplating these changes? Why haven't

19 they consulted with us Indian tribes even before

20 contemplating these changes? Why aren't you taking some of

21 our concerns to contemplate these changes? These changes

22 that we're seeing that are listed in here, they didn't come

23 from us. And that's why I think that's really important

24 that you listen to us on what changes we would like to see,

25 if there's any.



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1 And the concern -- I think you had a pretty good

2 introduction to, I guess, this spirituality part of what

3 we're talking about, because this particular topic is really

4 related in that area. It's -- there's no way that you could

5 separate it out. We're not going to give it up.

6 MR. KNIGHT: Good afternoon. My name is Terry

7 Knight. I'm a member of the Ute Mountain Ute Tribe.

8 Currently, my -- my work -- and I work in the Tribal

9 Historical Preservation office. But I'm a former tribal

10 chairman and tribal councilman, signatory Ute Mountain Ute

11 Tribe spiritual leader. And I'm on the Wildlife Commission,

12 and almost everything else that affected our people. I've

13 been there, done that; sent this, signed that.

14 And I'm also -- I guess I could say that I'm the

15 ranking tribal spiritual person for all the Ute people

16 within the sun dance and bird dance, any Native American

17 tribe with ceremony, whatever have you. And I came from a

18 long line of medicine people where I had seen them do

19 miracle things in just a few hours.

20 So I'm aware of the use -- and Mr. Crow Dog said

21 the communication that the individuals have with the animals

22 and the birds. My late father was one of those people that

23 used this golden eagle quite a bit. So I watched; I

24 listened to him. And I wanted to see again and just see how

25 far this summit regarding the eagles has progressed.



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1 And in the line of consultation -- I'm more

2 familiar with Section 106 -- but through that, these last

3 few years would have been going head to head and having to

4 educate different federal agencies as to what consultation

5 is -- what we think it is; what it should be.

6 And we -- we tell them that consultation is a

7 two-way street. And a consultation is not you imagine

8 you're right up here, your thoughts, your -- what you want

9 to talk to us about, and then say, Yes; we consulted with

10 them. No; it's two ways.

11 So -- and the most important thing is that I was

12 not aware that this was going to be a

13 government-to-government consultation. Otherwise, I would

14 have had a few more of my tribal people -- maybe the

15 chairman, vice chairman, secretary or treasurer, whomever.

16 But I came up because I represent some of those factions in

17 the tribe.

18 So there's one thing that I remember when one of

19 our tribal leaders, several years back, told the lady who

20 was doing a report -- facilitated a meeting like this. He

21 said, I hope you're not taking this as a consultation in a

22 sense of -- of -- that a government-to government

23 consultation, because I'm the only one here for my tribe.

24 And you're here, but you are not the supervisor. We want to

25 know -- we want to talk to your supervisor, your director,



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1 the state director, whoever it is, and me, as a councilman.

2 I want to talk directly to them. These are just staff

3 people. They're the ones that's going to write it and work

4 it. But to have effective consultation, it has to be

5 government-to-government; your boss, your regional director,

6 whomever it is, and me. Then we have that effective

7 government-to-government consultation within the line of

8 respect. That way, as you can say, that person said the

9 person that's responsible for this, and I am the person that

10 is responsible for my people. So from there on, we take it

11 down to our people.

12 So I've been there at the very top. And I

13 understood what they were saying. But now I'm a staff

14 person. And being the staff people, I don't necessarily

15 have to be nice. I can say whatever I want. Of course, I'm

16 not -- I don't have to play this what I call game. You

17 know, well, this is the government and this is this; hello,

18 how do you do? I don't have to do that anymore. I can be

19 direct, straightforward. And that's what I do.

20 So, therefore, what I say, that has to be said and

21 let -- let the -- as what they say -- chips fall where they

22 may. And, hopefully, things will get done. If we don't say

23 that, you think sometimes we're too nice. You know, we're

24 just too nice. And I don't have to be nice anymore. So I'm

25 the one that throws things out. See, try this. This is



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1 what we think. So I just want to let you know that.

2 And I thank all the tribal leaders and the staff

3 people. And we're going to take this back and say, This is

4 what we're talking about. And they'll say, What? I'll say,

5 Consultation -- a regular form of consultation. And I'll

6 say, That's what she said. And then they'll say, Well,

7 wasn't the appropriate information sent to my office? Why

8 wasn't this consultation -- this information sent? How did

9 she get ahold of -- how about these other people? How about

10 German Newton and German Morgan; how about them people? And

11 I'll say, I'm not the one that makes up the list.

12 So I just want to let you know. Thank you.

13 MR. GUTIERREZ: Good afternoon. My name is Jesse

14 Gutierrez. I'm from Santa Clara Pueblo from New Mexico. So

15 I just came to represent Santa Clara tribal council member.

16 And I have some of the same concerns from some of the

17 individuals, you know, with the consultation and the

18 government-to-government, because in the way I -- the way we

19 think is this should be them talking with our governor and

20 tribal council at our home, you know, and kind of consulting

21 with each other.

22 So that's something that I know -- at the

23 beginning of the meeting, you said that it's hard with all

24 the many different tribes that we have and that everyone's

25 unique, but, at the same time, there has to be some kind of



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1 meeting between -- somewhere, some communication. So maybe

2 we can talk more, before a lot of these laws or changes come

3 into effect. Because, there's too many times it's after the

4 fact. You know, after the fact, the tribes get a -- they

5 let us know, We're changing this; what do you think about

6 it; we already changed this; what do you think about it?

7 And we feel that it should be done before we can get to

8 those processes.

9 So thank you. And I probably have more questions

10 later.

11 MR. VOELKER: William Voelker, founder of record

12 for Comanche Nation Eagle program. And it's an honor to be

13 here with everybody.

14 MR. FERRIS: Wilfred Ferris from the Eastern

15 Shoshone Tribe, THPO officer. And, also, our councilman,

16 Darwin St. Clair, Jr., is supposed to be here also. And,

17 also, I share the same treaty with Showban over here; 1863

18 and 1868.

19 And I wanted to be here. And, also, I kind of

20 have the same feelings that councilman and representatives

21 for -- on behalf of the government-to-government

22 relationship. I, too, also have to take information back to

23 my leaders and explain to them that this is what went on.

24 And the list has to be forwarded to them -- to the right

25 individuals. So when that time comes for the



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1 government-to-government that will be taking place.

2 MR. GOOGLE: Good afternoon. My name is Dean

3 Google. I represent the Northern Arapaho Business Council

4 in Wyoming.

5 MR. MCELROY: My name is Ron McElroy. I'm from

6 the Northern Arapaho Business Council.

7 MR. SANCHEZ: Hello. My name is Delbert Sanchez,

8 lieutenant governor for Pueblo San Felipe.

9 MR. CANDELARIA: Good afternoon everybody. My

10 name is Daryl Candelaria, tribal administrator for the

11 Pueblo San Felipe in New Mexico.

12 MR. CHAVEZ: Good afternoon. Bernard Chavez. I'm

13 from Pueblo San Felipe, fiscale.

14 MR. CHAVEZ: Good afternoon. I'm Adam Chavez,

15 Pueblo official of the Pueblo San Felipe.

16 MS. BEGAY: All right. I also wanted to introduce

17 myself. My name is Yolynda Begay. I'm actually coming here

18 -- or not from -- I am not from Fish and Wildlife. I am

19 actually just the facilitator. I'm just here to make sure

20 that this meeting goes by smoothly and we stick to the

21 times.

22 So I'm not from Fish and Wildlife. I'm here as

23 sort of the person that's going to move the conversation

24 along. I do apologize for rushing everybody off, trying to

25 get you to follow some ground rules, but we have a lot to



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1 talk about. So I'm trying to move this forward and trying

2 to get us to stay on the task.

3 And without further ado, what we're going to do is

4 going to turn this over to Clint Riley.

5 Did we get everybody in the room? I want to make

6 sure that we get everybody introduced.

7 SPEAKER: I have a question on the consultation

8 topics. Who was it that selected those?

9 MS. BEGAY: This was a list that was generated

10 from -- I think they are decisions that are not -- have not

11 been made yet. These are the things that they have -- that

12 are sort of bubbling to the surface. No decisions have been

13 made on any of these consultation topics. They're here to

14 purely solicit your input, for you to provide comments on,

15 for you to provide them some feedback.

16 There's one thing that I did forget to do.

17 Clint, I'm so sorry.

18 We do have a lot of items to talk about. In the

19 event that we do not come back tomorrow morning or if you're

20 unavailable, what I want to do is to take at least five

21 minutes of your time and you tell me on that list what is

22 your priority -- your first, your second, your third and

23 your fourth priority.

24 I'm asking the tribal leadership because we want

25 to talk about those items. What is your number 1, number 2,



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1 number 3, and number 4? And based on your response, we're

2 going to go straight to that topic, just based on how folks

3 feel about these topics that we have here. We have six

4 items. I have them all listed on there. They're also on

5 your agenda. And you tell me what is your number 1, number

6 2, number 3, and number 4.

7 What I want you to do is -- we have this dry-erase

8 board up here. We have a couple of markers available as

9 well. Over here, out onto the side, if this is your number

10 1, you're going to put a 1 here. If this is your number 2,

11 you're going to put a 2 here. And I want you to write your

12 responses out onto the side. And I'm going to go ahead and

13 ask our tribal leaders to come up here first. And this is

14 going to -- shouldn't take no less than five minutes. This

15 will help us center on what it is that's important for

16 you-all.

17 So if I could have the leadership please come up

18 here and tell us what's important for you. Definitely come

19 up. I'm going to go ahead and allow Matt, Clint and Steve

20 to introduce themselves as well.

21 MR. OLBERHOLZER: Hello again. Steve

22 Olberholtzer, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service special agent

23 in charge of our law enforcement division.

24 MR. RILEY: Clint Riley, U.S. Fish and Wildlife

25 Service, assistant regional director for Migratory Birds.



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1 MR. HOGAN: Matt Hogan, deputy regional director

2 for Fish and Wildlife Service in the Mountain-Prairie

3 region.

4 MS. BEGAY: What we have up there, your number 1

5 is revising 2009 eagle take regulation. And that's where we

6 will begin. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

7 MR. VOELKER: From marking that system, it looks

8 like we're not going to get to captive breeding, it looks

9 like, today. I wanted to make a correction. On the handout

10 everybody got, the captive propagation of golden eagles, the

11 last line is incorrect.

12 We are the only Native American -- so, actually,

13 we are the only facility in the nation currently authorized

14 to breed golden eagles. We've been breeding golden eagles

15 since the '70s. But it says, Primitive propagate eagles

16 under a scientific research permit. The authority in this

17 case is under Native Religious Use. And it's important for

18 everybody to know that because we fought long and hard.

19 We've bred almost 500 native eagles in captivity

20 since 1970. In the old days, they were all under

21 special-use permits. But we fought hard for over a decade

22 to get captive breeding under Native Religious Use because

23 it's sacred work. The work that we do in bringing new eagle

24 life forward is done in a very holy fashion. So I just want

25 to make that correction. Thank you.



Page 20

1 MR. CLINT: Thanks, Bill. That was our error in

2 what we understood that permit to be.

3 Before we get started, I do have a couple of

4 introductory things, because they do come up as questions.

5 The question was, where these topics came from. The first

6 five of these are topics that nationally -- in discussion

7 across all regions in the national office -- felt like these

8 topics affecting eagles could be a potential interest to

9 tribes, and we wanted to have the opportunity to reach out

10 and to have consultation on these topics. We can find an

11 opportunity to do so.

12 The sixth topic regarding the Chokecherry-Sierra

13 Madre wind project is something that is just in Region 6 but

14 affects the tribes outside of our regional boundaries. And

15 we wanted the opportunity to try to reach out to as many

16 people as possible.

17 So we certainly heard many of the comments, the

18 frustrations with what can constitute effective

19 consultation. We very much appreciate people's interest and

20 letting us be here.

21 One of the things that as we move forward we would

22 like to hear about what -- when there are opportunities --

23 is, how to better communicate interest to consultation. We

24 did send communications to tribal chairmen that were within

25 our region or within the boundaries of the



Page 21

1 Chokecherry-Sierra Madre BCRs. We tried to reach out in

2 various ways in all these topics with information both in

3 written letters as well as in e-mails. Are we getting to

4 the right people? Are we doing the IDL and our -- our

5 Native American brigades on all posts, as you know, has been

6 trying to reach out.

7 So to the extent that it still results in some

8 uncertainties or confusion about whether the right people

9 are getting the message or whether information in advance is

10 -- is the appropriate information, that, certainly, feedback

11 is important to us. And that's where the -- these topics

12 came from.

13 All of these are under discussion internally.

14 They -- that's how they came up is within the Fish and

15 Wildlife Service's base. And we'll talk with each one as we

16 get them, what sort of internal conversations led to this as

17 a potential topic. But that's why we thought -- before we

18 want to go any farther, we wanted to try to reach out in a

19 consultation, because for all of these -- what Yolynda was

20 saying is this is happening before decision. Actually,

21 before that. This is before we even made proposals.

22 Most of the ones that are dealing with

23 regulations, there's one policy that's a slightly different

24 process. But for us to do anything, we will eventually have

25 to make a proposal to the public. We have not made a



Page 22

1 proposal to the public on any of these yet. So we are

2 wanting to talk to you before we would even develop

3 something that we would propose to the general public.

4 The permitting action is the last one on that wind

5 project. That one, the public certainly knows about because

6 we've tried to begin a need for process. However, we have

7 not even received a permit application on that one. So we

8 are wanting to talk to you through some opportunity for

9 consultation even before we have in hand an application from

10 the company in question.

11 So I know it's always hard to start as early as --

12 as we might wish. But, in this case, at least for these six

13 topics, we are raising them with you before we've even

14 developed proposals and before any proposals would have been

15 obviously shared with anyone else in the public. And we

16 hope your input will allow us to -- to put together a

17 proposal and may be more appropriate if we decide to propose

18 anything.

19 Oh, and then the last thing I want to make sure

20 about -- we did have written handouts that say more than

21 what is going to be on the slides for each of these topics,

22 again with the intention of trying to provide enough --

23 enough background information for you to feel somewhat

24 informed and what sort of feedback you may want to provide.

25 Did everyone get a copy of -- that copied pack of



Page 23

1 information?

2 With that said, let's move forward to the topic

3 about the take regulations. What I'm going to be trying to

4 do on behalf of the Fish and Wildlife Service and on behalf

5 of Noreen, our regional director, is provide a baseline, a

6 background information, that will allow us to have a common

7 understanding of what the potential topic is, what the

8 potential kind of proposal might be for you to be able to

9 share what your thoughts and perspective will be. For most

10 of those, I'm just going to provide one quick slide and more

11 information, as necessary, to follow.

12 This topic is -- so one -- I actually wanted to

13 give a little bit more information to make sure people do

14 have a basic background that is a similar baseline for a

15 conversation.

16 So I'll try to do it quickly, but bear with me.

17 This morning I mentioned, in 2009 we created some new

18 regulations for new types of permits, and it evolved over

19 the Bald Eagle Protection Act. And it was largely in

20 response to the fact that the bald eagle was being delisted

21 and realizing we didn't have permits and permits to what

22 could be accomplished per the Endangered Species Act.

23 In these permits, the two primary permits that

24 were created, standard take permits would allow for take of

25 an eagle in a single instance; a one-time take. We know



Page 24

1 it's going to happen or can predict what would be happening.

2 A programmatic permit would be an instance where there could

3 be take into the future that would be recurring over time.

4 Potentially, a way to think about that difference would be

5 if a bridge construction project that was going to be built

6 one time and it was going to take an eagle, that's a

7 one-time take.

8 If there is a wind farm going in over a number of

9 years, there may be recurring take in that sort of instance

10 and that would be one way to think of a potential difference

11 in those two different types of permits.

12 Many of you probably were aware that the

13 programmatic permits, while they were originally created as

14 five-year permits, it could be renewed. In -- December

15 2013's amendment to these regulations changed it so that the

16 applicants could apply for those permits to be up to 30

17 years. They would have to review -- we would have the

18 opportunity to review those each five years. For them to

19 continue, they would be issued, potentially, up to 30 years,

20 given those five-year reviews.

21 These -- either case, the take permit, to be

22 awarded, they have to be consistent with the goal of

23 stabilizing or increasing breeding populations. That was a

24 phrase that was created anew in the regulations to define

25 what the standard would be. One way to think about that



Page 25

1 would be there's supposed to be no net loss, generally, to

2 the eagle population.

3 They would have to be a part of an otherwise

4 lawful activity. If building a bridge is otherwise meaning

5 all the rest of the permits had and is something you can do,

6 everything else has to be okay. But if you think you may be

7 killing an eagle when that happens or otherwise taking an

8 eagle if it's not legal, then you could apply for this

9 permit.

10 To qualify for the permit, you have to avoid and

11 minimize the take to a maximum extent -- maximum-extent

12 practical goal. And especially for the programmatic

13 permits, you have to have an eagle conservation plan in

14 place about how that would be accomplished. Those criteria

15 are part of what I think you would like to hear more about

16 and we'll talk about here in a second.

17 So the -- when these regulations were first

18 created, we did receive some tribal input on those.

19 Concerns about how these affect tribes; how they affect the

20 fact that eagles are a sacred entity; the concerns about to

21 whom these permits might be issued, under what

22 circumstances, how we would be engaging with the tribes and

23 updating our policies, and just in -- generally, how we

24 implement the regulations.

25 We do still have records of that input, certainly.



Page 26

1 And, in fact, I would say that much of those concerns are

2 part of -- only part of what leads us to this stage, which

3 is the Fish and Wildlife Service's feeling that we need to

4 reconsider those 2009 regulations, examine them to see

5 whether there should be changes made to those regulations to

6 better achieve the original intent behind those regulations.

7 That being said, if you were a tribe that provided

8 input originally or were not, you're encouraged to share

9 your input in this forum, whether it's something you had

10 said before or not. And there will be other opportunities

11 in various forms as -- if these potential changes were able

12 to move forward.

13 So let me run through some of the kind of things

14 we anticipate thinking about in terms of changes. First is

15 the underlying language and terminology. And I mentioned

16 there's a difference between standard one-time take permits

17 and programmatic permits that are ongoing. Are those

18 different standards? What do we have to do to achieve them?

19 One of the things that's been raised is should

20 there even be any differences there. How would we define

21 those permits?

22 The second topic that's being considered is

23 mitigation. If -- if a permit said that you have to

24 compensate for a take through mitigation, when do you need

25 to provide that mitigation and under what circumstances and



Page 27

1 what type of mitigation should be allowed?

2 The preservation standard that I quoted a minute

3 ago was created as part of these regs, consistent with a

4 goal of increasing breeding populations. Is that the reg

5 standard for us to be using to determine when it would be

6 appropriate to issue a take permit?

7 The population had managed to object us. And by

8 that I mean, within a region, within a bird conservation

9 area, how do we decide what our goal is for a stable --

10 stable eagle population of either species? Is it that as

11 long as those species appears to be stable across the

12 continent, we're doing okay? Or if it appears to be stable

13 within state boundaries, is that okay?

14 How should we be thinking about our objectives of

15 the -- of a -- for the management of these species?

16 As we've mentioned this morning, our agency's goal

17 and mission is dealing with the birds and this -- their

18 long-lasting stability. How should we be defining that as

19 we move forward?

20 The geography's consultation. The -- for the

21 topic of the permit; that's the six bullets that we have

22 listed for the Chokecherry-Sierra Madre. We look towards

23 tribes that will then -- what we call bird conservation

24 regions or reasonable approximation that eagles that would

25 be flying within their -- within this potential wind farm



Page 28

1 might also be flying within your tribal boundaries. That's

2 one way we could do that. That was not established. One of

3 the things that could be established if we were to revise

4 these regs is to more clearly define when -- when there's a

5 specific permit being issued, when and how we should engage

6 with which tribes.

7 And that is standard. One of the frustrations

8 we've run into is we've tried to start implementing these

9 regulations is companies that wish to apply for a permit

10 would come in, and maybe they've done some surveys for

11 eagles or maybe they haven't or they've done some surveys,

12 but we don't think they're very effective surveys. At what

13 point can we require them to do something for us to feel

14 more confident when we represent to the public whether or

15 not it's appropriate to issue that take permit?

16 And a number of the other issues. I've visited a

17 list to try to prompt some of the thinking that's been going

18 on in our offices, but I don't want this meeting to be as

19 restricted with these issues. Also, just trying to be

20 transparent as much as possible about if we were to move

21 forward with potential changes once our listing of some of

22 the topics that we're most interested that we would have.

23 MR. TYLER: Can I have a comment?

24 MR. RILEY: Sure.

25 MR. TYLER: Lee Juan Tyler, Shoshone Tribe. On



Page 29

1 that issue, the habitat is the key. And that was mentioned

2 as the -- in the sacred water areas. That area is where

3 we're at in Salvation Idaho. And for about 280 days

4 straight last year, their rivers -- they start from Wyoming,

5 some of them, like Snake River, some of the headwaters start

6 in all different areas -- they call them east or west where

7 the the start of Rockies are running by it.

8 But there's like 17 super fun sites in our area.

9 A lot of eagles there. There's the riparian areas where

10 their habitat is. And then that area of the Snake River to

11 American Falls Reservoir, and I think that Terry knows where

12 that's at, like Creek Way, some sun dance (indiscernible).

13 There were 3- to 5,000 waterfalls there in the area of a

14 site that they were dumping into there in 1949 about 3- to

15 5,000 waterfalls, day and night. And how did that happen?

16 The thing did not belong to us and, like, nobody ever came

17 and stayed there. Not to bring an issue -- not to bring

18 this up, but I don't know. It seems like it goes up every

19 year.

20 And I think that's where the key is. You guys

21 need to work with the federal agencies, like the EPA,

22 because where we're at, money will control that because they

23 give money, probably somehow under the table, right here.

24 They give money to somebody, like corruption, like in a

25 pass. That's the genius.



Page 30

1 Well, if that's happening still -- because right

2 now, they're in charge. They're in the driver's seat. And

3 the power company, they have their big hydropower. And they

4 have three dams over there. They destroy the camerons --

5 destroy the camerons and it's really sad. And this area was

6 65 miles long. The dam reservoir, it's all pollution. It's

7 the sewer system. Every day is warmer; everybody is dumping

8 there, everything. And there's other species that can't

9 survive. The eagles go there. And the others, you know,

10 they go there. They eat on the predators, so they eat on

11 some of this. This is a chain reaction. It's going to lead

12 to something that's going to cause, you know, West Nile

13 virus. Somebody going to panic -- an epidemic, oh, oh.

14 That's where you're going to find that.

15 Stop these things before they happen. And we need

16 somebody to hold those guys accountable because right now,

17 they are running crazy because of this short-term profit.

18 And that's happening with this -- sound like, with this

19 Chokecherry, Keystone and everything, hydro-fracking over

20 here. And it goes on and on. But that's one of the keys.

21 The EPA, I think, is not -- not as powerful as they should

22 be, allowing other companies, industries there take over

23 because of that money.

24 MR. RILEY: Thank you. I think, for certain

25 comments we're going to be looking for, I do need a little



Page 31

1 bit more background information where everyone could share

2 as much of that. Maybe, specifically on that, what I would

3 to say, that's an example or a part of the challenge that

4 led to want to create something like these permits. Our

5 recognition in our general responsibility of wanting to take

6 steps to conserve eagles. Eagles are being affected and

7 even killed. A classic sort of "bureaurat-eze" governmental

8 way of thinking, you know, for what that's worth, frequently

9 is if you can issue the permit to something, you can control

10 the standards of that permit and start trying to affect what

11 they are doing in ways to limit the impacts.

12 For those sorts of impacts, should these permits

13 be created in such a way that we would be trying to address

14 these permits or those sorts of actions and -- and manage

15 those? That's part of the kind of question you were asking.

16 MR. KNIGHT: I have a concern. It's a

17 jurisdictional issue where I come from. It's really

18 Cortez -- north of Cortez, about a quarter of a mile.

19 There's a -- like a -- what I would call a block, maybe a

20 section. I think it's County Road M and whatever the

21 alphabet is before that. But on a good winter day, I could

22 drive through there -- on an average day, I could see twelve

23 eagles sitting in there, all kinds.

24 And this guy -- I guess the land was up for

25 sale -- guy came in, bought it, put in his cattle, put in a



Page 32

1 big house, a pond, and cut down most of those old trees.

2 And now I can drive by there and I'm lucky if I see three,

3 maybe two. I know where there's one. He doesn't live in

4 that man's land -- on the other side.

5 And it all goes -- their habitat, it is destroyed.

6 And even on a better day, you could come all the way --

7 almost a block away from Main Street; there's a swimming

8 pool there -- and you could see bald eagles, golden eagles

9 sitting there. And now that all this development has

10 occurred, they don't come around.

11 So I was just wondering -- I know you are a

12 federal agency -- just who and what are you looking to

13 regulate? And if I say -- if I point out prime eagle

14 habitat during the winter and it's not federal land and it's

15 private land and it's up for sale and they would destroy the

16 habitat, like it happened before, what could you do about

17 it?

18 You know -- and then, similarly, development over

19 there on the southwest corner of the state of Colorado in

20 the reservation, they put in a pig farm. And one year,

21 before that farm was still up, me and one of my nephews went

22 up and looked around. And just for that small area, we

23 counted 32 eagles, all kinds. And they were feeding on

24 prairie dogs. But now you can see maybe three or four.

25 But during the wintertime, you know, you see



Page 33

1 dozens of them because they're eating off the birds. But

2 that's the only time they're there. But other times they're

3 out, you know, doing -- you know, hunting to provide for

4 themselves and their little eaglets. But we were a party to

5 that; destroying their habitat and their food source.

6 But the other part, who -- who -- who is it that

7 -- if there's -- it's a prime eagle habitat, it's --

8 especially during wintertime, who is it that can say, no, we

9 can't; you can't -- as a private citizen, you're not going

10 to buy it and you're not going to destroy this habitat?

11 It just seemed like in everything else, you have

12 federal government, their authority, and then state,

13 private, whatever companies who wanted to develop for

14 whatever areas, they have a -- they have a free hand to do

15 whatever they want. Like we're talking about this -- this

16 -- this electrical energy.

17 And so where are all this work and all this

18 concern, and excuse me, just say, Well, we want -- we want

19 your recommendation. We want to help you. We want to know

20 what we can do about this, this management. But yet, today,

21 right now, some of those eagles -- our sacred birds -- are

22 dying because of all this progress.

23 So where do you stand? And we're saying, you

24 know, you're not supposed to do that. You're saying that's

25 against the law and some guy over here wants to get eagle



Page 34

1 feathers, whatever it takes. You know, a long time to get

2 some from here. So he goes out there. He sees one, whether

3 it's on a reservation, off reservation, and he'll -- not

4 going to say kill it -- he'll harvest it. Somebody sees him

5 and he has to go to court and is threatened with jail time

6 because he needed that for his sacred ceremony.

7 Now, where do all of this fit in? You know,

8 because sometimes they come to me -- and my nephews and my

9 grandsons and they say, Here, Uncle; here, Grandpa, here.

10 They came in -- I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble

11 for this -- but where is our attorney? But they say, Here,

12 I found this over there. Or so-and-so, you know, got this

13 bird, and we don't know what to do with this, so I'm going

14 to give it to you; you might need it or somebody might need

15 it. So I say, Oh, thank you, and I put it away.

16 And even non-Indians. They say, Oh, here. There

17 was a bird over there by my road, my driveway; you better

18 come get it real quick. It's somebody that I don't even

19 know. You better come real quick because the sheriff or

20 somebody sees it, they're going to report it and it's going

21 to be gone. You're not going to be able to use it. So I

22 dash up there real quick, get my plastic bag, throw it in

23 the back seat, and off I go.

24 So I guess I'd broken the law, huh?

25 But, anyway -- not the first time in that sense.



Page 35

1 But, so where -- where does you stand and how can you say,

2 Well, this is development, multi-billion-dollar development.

3 We got this. We're going to -- we need electrical energy?

4 And we're saying we're faced with the same thing

5 in the New Mexico part of our reservation in mining and

6 solar-panel energy. And we're going -- they're going to put

7 power lines. And that's the other thing that's like, you

8 know, kill a lot of birds -- power lines. And I'm saying,

9 Well, we could have -- we could have looked at it. We could

10 have looked at the habitat. What are we going to lose and

11 what are we going to gain by this, if most of the electrical

12 energy is going to go to California or Arizona or what?

13 What about me? You know, what do I get out of it? And

14 you're going to destroy all this livestock habitat and, you

15 know, the birds and whatever else that lived there. You're

16 going to destroy their habitat, then what?

17 Well, we need -- we need the money. We need the

18 cash. I said, Well, that's a heck of a trade-off, because,

19 like I said, it just so happens that some of us might want

20 to rain test it. That's why I've got to go home this

21 evening and going to check on the animals and say, that's

22 when winter rain -- that's what I learned to walk and ride a

23 horse. My grandmother was taking care of me when I said

24 that. Your kid is too close to home. You're too close to

25 home. So I'm -- I can go along with you so far, but you



Page 36

1 have to give me assurances that these things are going to be

2 taken care of.

3 So just, you know, comment on what a -- how --

4 what is your reaction to that?

5 MR. RILEY: You raised several really important

6 topics there. Thank you. One of them that's important for

7 us to know in terms of what we can and can't do with the

8 regulations is that the law prohibits the take of eagles'

9 eggs in their nests. And to the extent that it impacts on

10 habitat, we can make a very clear definitive connection and

11 say, Hey, what you did with that habitat meant you've killed

12 an eagle; we can say that's illegal. If we can't, the law

13 does not protect the habitat just as habitat. And that's

14 important to know that -- the limits of what we can do.

15 What we are looking to do -- part of, I think, some of the

16 other important points you were raising are affecting where

17 we can focus on eagle conservation.

18 And Steve, in his presentation this morning, spent

19 some time discussing the fact that, you know, while he is --

20 as head of our law enforcement section in the region, he

21 can't say something is okay. It's technically illegal. The

22 priorities and where we spend our time pursuing prosecutions

23 are largely for energy development. The prosecutions are

24 pursued against energy companies with their power lines,

25 against wind power companies. That can take a long time to



Page 37

1 build those cases and to bring those cases and to bring them

2 successfully.

3 We have -- as long and as slowly as that process

4 can be, it's even longer and slower to permit. And we have

5 not yet issued a permit at all for any power companies to

6 have a programmatic permit, because they haven't yet met the

7 standards that we feel like are appropriate. Part of what

8 we're asking for is your continued input as we continue to

9 figure out how to implement these regulations out with what

10 the standards would be.

11 MR. SHOWBAN SHAY: Darrell Showban Shay. I'd

12 like to make a comment on that -- on that last -- referring

13 to that bullet there, Establishing required data standards

14 to adequately assess risk to eagles. I think what you've

15 been hearing all morning is you can't -- you can't assess

16 the risks to eagles without considering the human

17 connection. I mean, they are a part of us, and I don't know

18 if you got that message.

19 And I think you don't go far enough in how you can

20 look at the -- the whole picture. Because, like -- like for

21 EPA and some of the other federal agencies, they ask you to

22 do risk assessments on a certain kind of either a

23 contamination or development on a human impact. Okay. When

24 you do that and if you're talking about the eagles, there's

25 going to be human impacts. We've told you that. They are a



Page 38

1 part of us; we are a part of them. And when you assess the

2 risks to the eagles, it doesn't seem like it takes that into

3 consideration.

4 I know I've been involved in a couple of risk

5 assessments on contamination. And I think my councilman,

6 Lee Juan Tyler, mentioned we're in a -- we're in a super

7 fund site. Okay. We've done some risk assessments on the

8 impacts of that contamination to the human -- the people

9 living around that area, not only -- not only tribal

10 members, but people that live close by and, you know, up and

11 down that whole general area. And there's a high incidence

12 of cancer, different things that are cropping up. But we're

13 saying the same thing with the eagles. Something is wrong

14 with the eagles. So how does that connection -- how is that

15 connection made to the human impact? And we're telling you,

16 they're a part of us.

17 So I think -- I don't know if you addressed that,

18 but I got this Power Point that I was given by Fish and

19 Wildlife folks that -- I think it was last year's

20 discussions -- but they talk about tribal traditional

21 ecological knowledge. And I think if you took that and

22 incorporated it into assessing risks and incorporating it

23 into part of a data standard that goes into the equation, I

24 think you would be -- you would actually -- I know you would

25 satisfy me on -- on being able to assess that risk with the



Page 39

1 human impact. Because if you're just assessing the risk to

2 the eagles, you're not going far enough. Because if

3 anything happens to the eagles, then it's an impact on us.

4 I mean, right now, you're giving some deference to

5 falconers. I mean, at least that was part of the earlier

6 discussion. Falconers have some say into what goes on.

7 They actually, you know -- according to some of the rules

8 that were in the Power Point is that falconers are allowed

9 to take, you know, after the -- after the eagles have been

10 rehabilitated.

11 And then now there's mitigation. Mitigation, to

12 me, is another -- another yes-means-no word. Because, you

13 know, we're talking about all these prohibitative (sic)

14 activities on eagles, taken eagles, you know, impacting in

15 somehow. But mitigation will allow you to do that. It's a

16 trade-off.

17 And I don't like the word "mitigation". But it's

18 in there and I guess some folks like -- like the word, but I

19 don't like it because all it is a -- is a trade-off. You

20 don't like what you're -- what this person is doing --

21 activity; it could impact the eagles. But you're going to

22 trade it off by saying, Okay, in order to mitigate, you can

23 do this to minimize that damage. And I don't think that's

24 right. Either you've got to -- you've got to treat him in

25 the sacred manner that we're telling you or else you



Page 40

1 shouldn't even be dealing with them.

2 MR. RILEY: Thank you. Thanks. The mitigation

3 point; well, that's exactly what we need to be hearing and

4 understanding. Again, you covered a lot of ground, and I

5 want to make sure that we're all in the same page.

6 So, working backwards, it is absolutely a case.

7 The way the current regulations and law are structured would

8 be that if they otherwise meet standards for the permit,

9 which is that they're conducting a lawful activity, they've

10 put in sort of best management practices or they swore or

11 demonstrated they're trying to avoid and minimize the take

12 as much as they can practically do it. Then the remaining

13 take can be permitted, but they have to mitigate for it.

14 And as you said, that does mean you've got a chance to take

15 the eagle.

16 It's mitigation in a different sense than what EPA

17 might frequently mean. It's not simply doing something good

18 for eagles. You have to come up with something that we

19 believe, scientifically, can be demonstrated is going to

20 save an eagle's life that would not otherwise been saved.

21 But the current structure does allow for takes as long it's

22 mitigated golden eagles. What I'm hearing from you is

23 that's just terribly inappropriate. And we do need to

24 capture that.

25 Traditional ecological knowledge is on the handout



Page 41

1 that we have. It's something we wanted to learn more about;

2 how we can incorporate that into our understanding both to

3 gather biological knowledge but, also, certainly, to gather

4 the cultural understanding or the meaning of this.

5 And I must say your -- your interpretation of that

6 bullet is much more nuance and interesting than what we

7 intended when we wrote that bullet. I think that's also

8 what we're looking for hearing, to think about when we say

9 "risk to eagles", thinking about that also in a sense of the

10 impact to the humans and the Native American tribes that

11 take -- when we wrote the bullet, it was meaning something

12 much more pedestrian than that. It was simply, if someone

13 said, We wanted to put up some wind turbines, to what extent

14 can we predict that an eagle is going to get killed there or

15 not? If no eagle is going to get killed there, we shouldn't

16 be worried about it.

17 If this is a flight path that eagles migrate

18 regularly, we should be very, very worried what sort of data

19 standards can we require to better understand the likelihood

20 an eagle might happen to get killed. That's a -- that's a

21 much simpler meaning of risk than what you were alluding to.

22 And I appreciate your -- your expansive reading for us to

23 consider.

24 There is a little bit more information I'd like to

25 get to, and then what I would intend to do is to hand this



Page 42

1 over to Yolynda and let this be conversation and

2 presentation.

3 There was another portion of the 2009 rules that

4 allowed for take of eagles' nests that hadn't been allowed

5 previously for similar reasons. There's information in the

6 handout that talks about when and what are -- what

7 circumstances eagle nests could allow somebody to remove a

8 nest.

9 To just hit some of the -- some of the things that

10 have come up in our own internal discussions, we'd like to

11 consider one. And is, simply, the definition of "nest".

12 What's an active nest versus an inactive nest? The current

13 regulations talk about sometimes you can take an inactive

14 nest, but you wouldn't be able to take an active. Can you

15 define that better?

16 The question of mitigation comes up again in a

17 situation for a safety emergency. For example -- in what we

18 think is appropriate to allow someone to remove an eagle's

19 nest because there's an -- there's a danger being presented;

20 it's going to cause an electrocution or something like that.

21 Is that a situation where we should require mitigation or

22 not if it's a safety emergency? That's something that we're

23 thinking about again and look for input.

24 Protection of a wildlife. An inactive eagle's

25 nest, if there's something about impacts to wildlife that



Page 43

1 may be occurring, is that a reason that we might look at

2 removing an eagle's nest, if it's inactive?

3 Right now, the requirement says that you have to

4 demonstrate that there's suitable nesting habitat somewhere

5 else in the vicinity. There are parts of the country where

6 -- especially for bald eagles, for example -- that might be

7 an impossible thing to demonstrate; the habitat has been

8 saturated in that particular locality. Well, should we

9 still say that's a requirement and look out farther, or is

10 that requirement not appropriate in that sort of

11 circumstance?

12 And then, finally, right now, there's a

13 requirement if the eggs are nestlings, if you are allowed to

14 remove the nest, it needs to be transferred to a real good

15 rehabilitation facility. Is that something that should

16 always be a requirement or is that something that is case by

17 case? Maybe we make the requirement of a given permit.

18 Again, that's a -- a quick picture of a number of

19 the issues that as we've tried to figure out how to

20 implement these regulations that have come up in our minds,

21 that we might consider proposing some sort of an amendment

22 to the regulations. We haven't made any of these proposals

23 yet. Whether any of those or anything else that you're

24 thinking of would seem appropriate as an amendment, we're

25 looking for your input.



Page 44

1 Then to finish here for -- for what I'd like to

2 make sure is in front of all of you, on this whole concept

3 of revising this regulation, the Fish and Wildlife Service

4 has just recently decided we're going to be holding some

5 scoping sessions. Denver would be one of those locations,

6 DC, probably Minnesota, Albuquerque and Sacramento. There's

7 other locations. None of those dates have been selected or

8 anything finalized, but highlight that to you. Certainly,

9 you will be welcome to participate in any of those public

10 meetings.

11 There is at least a possibility -- and this is

12 something else that could be accepted -- but that we would

13 be trying -- in some or all of those -- to have affiliated

14 chance for some discussion with tribes, separate from the

15 general public -- general public meetings. That may or may

16 not turn out feasible if there's a ground school of desire

17 that may help that occur, if that seems like that would be

18 appropriate.

19 And there may be -- through the public legal

20 process as well as comments on any take regulation as well

21 as -- if the -- if the tone or tenor on what the changes may

22 turn out to be very different than -- for example, what I

23 represented here, we may be looking for other opportunities

24 for tribal input.

25 The time line, however, that has been discussed



Page 45

1 would be greatly accelerated, at least in terms of how

2 quickly the federal government quickly moves. And that

3 would be to try to generate some sort of a proposal by this

4 summer and try to finalize whatever changes we might need to

5 by the end of this calendar year. That's the time line

6 that's being discussed.

7 We can have a -- well, frankly, it's sort of an

8 external Fish and Wildlife Service, too. But we understand

9 if we are to -- people -- people take this rule seriously

10 enough and people have concerns from all different angles --

11 industry has concerns, tribes have concerns, and we have

12 concerns as we try to implement it. If we can make changes,

13 the sooner the better. But we'd also like to smarten up

14 those changes.

15 That's -- along with the front and back handout

16 you have is my attempt to at least paint the picture of what

17 the potential issues are. And I'm going to hand this over

18 to Yolynda. I'd like to hear from you and certainly respond

19 to comments or questions as that's appropriate.

20 MR. TYLER: You guys are talking about the tribal

21 ecological knowledge. Here in the environmental agency, the

22 protecting environmental office and the regions all put

23 together a national tribal caucus to add wisdom, tribal

24 ecological knowledge and wisdom, because everybody can have

25 knowledge, but the -- that one gentleman here was speaking,



Page 46

1 that's wisdom, and Terry and I and others and everybody in

2 this room. So that needs to be added to that as well. So

3 just to throw that in there before we go too far.

4 MS. BEGAY: Thank you.

5 MR. ROUNDSTONE: I just had a question. I think

6 I, like, know the answer, but I'd like it to be spoken by

7 the federal government. With the legal take permit that I

8 read in this literature here that's been in existence since

9 1940, they made some -- they added golden eagles in '62.

10 How many eagle take permits have been given to individual

11 tribes and tribal members to date?

12 MR. RILEY: In the last 15 years or so -- let me

13 find it. As far as Native American take permits, there have

14 been -- let's see -- this goes back to just 2001, and there

15 have been nine applications for permits. Now, one of those

16 applications is the -- the Hopi permit that many of you are

17 referring to and familiar with, which has an annual permit

18 that to re-apply for that goes back a number of years. So

19 it's eight others in addition to that that have been

20 permits. And in each one of those, at least, take was

21 authorized. I don't know if anybody else is -- Janelle -- I

22 should check -- do you know if any of those applications

23 were denied in any of those?

24 SPEAKER: Not to my knowledge, no.

25 MR. RILEY: To our knowledge, those are -- those



Page 47

1 nine applications were authorized. And we don't know of any

2 that were denied.

3 MR. ROUNDSTONE: So with that said, how many

4 eagles do you allow to corporate organizations to take

5 before it's a problem? I heard you say -- one of you say up

6 there that it was 232 eagles taken in two years and you're

7 only allowing nine eagles since 1962.

8 MR. RILEY: We didn't allow them to take those 232

9 eagles. We prosecuted them as illegal acts.

10 MR. ROUNDSTONE: But what I'm saying is that if

11 corporate America asks for these permits for take, how many

12 are you going to allow them to take before it becomes a

13 mitigation issue or before you start having them having to

14 pay?

15 And the other thing is, you know -- and this

16 really irks me -- is if a Native American individual takes

17 eagles, they -- and then you prosecute him, goes through

18 that prosecution and decides to take another, then you're

19 going to send him to prison for over two eagles or three

20 eagles. Now, corporate or energy development, energy

21 developers, take 232 eagles and the very next year, they

22 take 200 because of your mitigation attempts, is that right?

23 Is anybody in that corporate system going to jail like us

24 natives? I don't think so.

25 And I think the bottom line here that we're



Page 48

1 talking about is a way of life and a religion -- if you want

2 to put that religion stamp on there -- versus money. You

3 know, in all the time that I have ever seen in the white

4 world, money always wins.

5 So I think that, you know, you guys are going on

6 the right trail in this consultation. But I also think

7 that, you know, there's a lot more awareness, you know.

8 There's only 20 of us sitting up here, and you say there's

9 570 tribes or so. And I think you guys need to consult with

10 at least half of them. Thank you.

11 MR. RILEY: The way the regulations are set up

12 right now, we do attempt to calculate how many eagles could

13 be authorized, whether it's a company or a Native American

14 or otherwise, before we would require mitigation. With bald

15 eagles, that's a region-by-region number that's done with

16 folks in our office who talks to (indiscernible) who read

17 the charts more or are working it through.

18 And there's a number of bald eagles for each

19 region. We have not reached that number since the

20 regulations are created in any of those regions. So that

21 the limit has not been because of that calculation, whether

22 it's for Native Americans or anyone else.

23 For golden eagles, the people who do that

24 statistical work, they found out based on that data -- feel

25 like we should not be authorizing any golden eagles unless



Page 49

1 it's mitigated and that, often, in either cases, we should

2 not authorize take unless someone can demonstrate they have

3 put together a plan that has minimized what would it take to

4 the maximum extent practical. So far, nobody has achieved

5 that standard and achieved a permit. And those are specific

6 things. You raised much deeper issues than that, I realize.

7 But to make sure folks sort of understand how we -- how we

8 regulate to this point and how we've been attempting to

9 implement them.

10 MR. OLDMAN: Ron Oldman for the Northern Arapaho

11 Tribe. The Northern Arapaho Tribe did apply for a permit --

12 for an eagle take permit on the reservoir reservation. And

13 I mean no disrespect to the Eastern Shoshone Tribe. We both

14 share their Wind River reservation. But the Arapaho Tribe

15 -- the Northern Arapaho Tribe was denied a permit for an

16 eagle take permit on religious and ceremonial purposes.

17 However, we've been given -- we've been offered -- the

18 Northern Arapaho Tribe has not accepted yet, to my knowledge

19 -- that we've been offered a permit to take two eagles off

20 the reservation in the state of Wyoming. However, that

21 would break a state law. So we were put in a catch-22

22 situation.

23 And, you know, I feel that -- that we -- we are --

24 we are being denied our First Amended -- Amendment rights

25 of freedom of religion in respect to taking these eagles,



Page 50

1 which we use in our sun dance. And I will not speak any

2 more beyond that. And this -- you know, they've made a

3 mockery of -- in regard to our First Amendment rights.

4 But I guess I would like to take it a step further

5 in how energy companies can be having a -- have priority of

6 receiving up to 65 permits in the state of Wyoming in the

7 Sierra-Madre energy purposes and we're being denied access

8 to practice our religious rights.

9 And I'd like to know what assurances that the

10 Northern Arapaho Tribe has that are high -- higher

11 priority -- are higher priority to taking of these eagles to

12 practice our religious ceremonies will be implemented. And

13 how will the department balance and implement the stated

14 priorities as to issuing these permits? Two tribes, as

15 compared to energy companies, wind farms, and how -- how do

16 -- how did the forest service add that -- I guess, the

17 government -- a way of the protection of religious freedoms

18 and the practices against the non-religious takes by wind

19 farms?

20 Is there any way that -- I guess I'm going to need

21 -- I'm going to read this question because I'm kind of

22 getting lost here. Will any tribes be empowered to block

23 permits by wind farms on religious grounds? If so, which

24 tribes? Those which take the eagles for religious purposes

25 or those which do not? And how -- how are the affected



Page 51

1 tribes determined in relation to geographic purposes for the

2 reason of consultation?

3 MR. RILEY: Again, a number of issues you raised

4 there. Each -- each of them is very important. The things

5 are -- I'm supposed to say, before anything else, we are not

6 intentionally trying to burn anybody out of here.

7 Apparently, the air conditioning is out of fritz. They're

8 trying to get it fixed.

9 In terms of priorities and your concern that we

10 would be issuing as many as 60 permits to a company in

11 Wyoming, as you know, we certainly have not issued those

12 permits yet. We don't have the application yet. That --

13 that application will be considered when we receive it.

14 But --

15 MR. OLDMAN: Can I interject right here? Sorry

16 for the interruption -- I don't need that -- but you've

17 offered it to them, right?

18 MR. RILEY: No, no. Not at all.

19 MR. OLDMAN: So the statements in the media that

20 came up last fall were wrong?

21 MR. RILEY: Oh, you should know well enough not to

22 believe what you read in the media. There were a number of

23 things written in the media that were phrased incorrectly.

24 No. Not only have we not offered, we have not received an

25 application.



Page 52

1 What we said we would do is -- is review their

2 application. We do meet with them and have been meeting

3 with them to advise them of ways that would take a limit to

4 their take so that their application might be permittable.

5 And that would be our hope if this were to go

6 forward as a project, that they would take steps to the

7 extent we can identify any steps to limit the amount of

8 takes, whether it would be less than 60 eagles, for example.

9 But we have not offered any permits. It would be illegal

10 for us to do so until we have a permit.

11 When we do have a permit application in hand, the

12 reg -- the same regulations we're talking about did

13 establish a priority order that said we are not allowed to

14 issue a programmatic permit if it would impair our ability

15 to issue permits to a higher priority. Of that -- of those

16 higher priorities, the first is for safety emergencies. But

17 the second is for Native American religious take.

18 So at some point today or tomorrow morning,

19 perhaps, we'll be talking about the Chokecherry-Sierra Madre

20 project. The -- one of the reasons we need to be talking

21 with you about that is because under the regs, if -- if we

22 were to believe that by issuing a permit for that wind

23 project as a programmatic permit that the act of issuing a

24 permit would prevent our ability to issue permits for Native

25 or religious permits, we shouldn't issue it. We haven't



Page 53

1 gotten to that step yet.

2 As far as the permit offerance for the take of two

3 bald eagles for the Northern Arapaho Tribe, just acknowledge

4 that, yes, we -- we have -- well, in our department, we've

5 issued the permit as available to take two eagles off of the

6 reservation somewhere in Wyoming. We had worked with the

7 State of Wyoming to confirm that that would be legal. It's

8 not a violation of state law. There was a concern about

9 that, certainly. And our decision in issuing a permit with

10 those restrictions was based on consultation that we had on

11 the reservation with -- with both of the tribes.

12 But whether we had that balance right or wrong, as

13 you know, is now subject to litigation. And consequently,

14 it'd be inappropriate for me to do anything more than

15 acknowledge those facts. But, yes, to acknowledge those

16 facts and -- and recognize that the tribe has -- has -- has,

17 as formally as can be done by filing a lawsuit, demonstrated

18 that you're not convinced that we corrected a balance to

19 those interests.

20 MR. KNIGHT: I'm going to have to leave here in a

21 couple of minutes, but I'm just sitting here thinking in --

22 in other situation language, a phrase that the energy

23 companies have to deal with is called historical districts,

24 traditional cultural properties, culturally-sensitive areas.

25 And I work a lot with archeologists and this -- they say,



Page 54

1 Well, this is that kind of an area because we have a spotted

2 owl nest in there and -- and whatever kind of rocky mountain

3 or (indiscernible) cactus and we have that here and we have

4 this here, so, therefore, whatever development has to occur

5 should go around it. And we have sacred sites. We have --

6 what do you call -- ruins. They are thousands of years old,

7 so we have to avoid it.

8 So what is it that we can say, as tribes, when the

9 Fish and Wildlife say, these eagle-nesting areas would be

10 traditional cultural properties, culturally-sensitive areas

11 because they are essential to our religion, our lives, our

12 belief? Why couldn't we declare those -- those kind of

13 areas historical districts? And so when an energy company

14 comes in, say, I want to lay a pipeline or whatever they're

15 going to say, then we have people to stand up and say, No,

16 that has been declared that kind of an area, off limits. We

17 have the support of the Fish and Wildlife and other people,

18 other tribes, together -- not just one tribe, together.

19 Because we've done that with the -- with the water supply

20 project with our neighbors from the south of Pueblo, the

21 Navahos, the Inca Apache, the two Ute tribes. And we have

22 one nesting area that it's off limits. And I can't remember

23 what they call it, all these different names -- whatever

24 abbreviation. And that area is off limits to everybody.

25 And the Bureau of Reclamation, they paid one man a



Page 55

1 lot of money to watch it -- sit there and watch it, make

2 sure nobody stole some feathers or one up there did this and

3 did that. And there's some of the areas within that -- that

4 -- that's an area for -- for -- what do they call it -- oka

5 (phonetic)? And it's right in that area and nobody touches

6 that site. Of course, it's way up on that cliff, but if we

7 could -- we could use our -- our people that we work with,

8 our attorneys and the staff people -- and I'm sure that the

9 Fish and Wildlife have those -- incorporate those concepts

10 into these areas that we're talking about.

11 Like I said, that one section, on a good day, on a

12 really good day, I could see 16 or 17 eagles sitting around.

13 But now, no. If someone was there and said, This is a

14 traditional cultural property due to this tribe and other

15 tribes, and this is the significance of that bird, and we'd

16 have to give some of our information, that's where it's

17 touchy. What do you use that eagle for? How do you use;

18 why? They want to know why. And that's really sensitive

19 because, you know -- and this is that -- that's something

20 that is ours; that our medicine people use. We can't tell

21 them that. Besides, they won't understand it. They will

22 sure print that and make a good story out of it.

23 But if we use these concepts that have already

24 been developed in these contexts of energy development to

25 hold back all these -- like you're saying, just these



Page 56

1 windmills, whatever, that's killing eagles, you know,

2 there's -- somewhere, somehow, there was, within a migration

3 period of the tribes that were there -- and there were

4 sacred sites, burial grounds -- they could have said, No;

5 you can't use this site. This is a sacred site. This is a

6 historical property. It's a historical district. And

7 you're going to have to go through all kinds of paperwork.

8 And the bottom line is, I'm going to have to sign off on it.

9 If I don't sign off on it, too bad, because I'm not going to

10 sign on it. And we've done that. So I've become the bad

11 guy.

12 But, anyway, the tribal government understands

13 this and they support it. So if we could -- just a word,

14 and an idea; think about it, chew on it, sleep to it. How

15 can you incorporate those concepts into what we're talking

16 about here? Because that's what the energy companies have

17 dealt with. And that's what holds them some back and say,

18 Oh, well, we, the company, do this because this so-and-so

19 and this and so on.

20 And one of the major players, the archeologists

21 and tribal officers and others, the -- the medicine people

22 and elders and whomever, and they all get together and say,

23 No; we don't want that anyway because this is a traditional

24 cultural property, this is this -- should be declared a

25 historical site, which means no development, no this, no



Page 57

1 that, because of the habitat and they're hunting grounds and

2 they're nesting grounds. And we say those two-legged wind

3 people are our brothers. So let's say, Let's take care of

4 our brothers. We don't want these people there. They can

5 go around. They can go somewhere else, you know, to do this

6 energy development.

7 And we use this concept and put it together,

8 because energy companies already have that in their head.

9 They have attorneys that have worked with it. And, so far,

10 it's working. It's holding them back. So something that

11 you can think about. So I just want to leave that with you.

12 Thankful that I came. Like I said, I have to go

13 back and I've got some ceremonies pending. And I will think

14 about you-all and think about what we're doing. And, we,

15 cooperatively, it can be done. All you have to say, Us;

16 we're going to do this. Us; we can do this. But if you

17 stand by me, don't turn your back. Stay with me. Stay with

18 me because this is a good cause.

19 And so I'm -- I'm not sticking my neck out. When

20 I go home, I tell my nephews and my nieces and my grandson,

21 this is what I said and this is what we're going to do

22 regarding that. And they'll say, Oh, okay. Okay, Uncle.

23 All right. We'll go with you. So just -- that's it. Thank

24 you.

25 MR. RILEY: As you're leaving, I just want to make



Page 58

1 sure we thank you for your time and your comments.

2 Certainly, as you go home, when you think about it, if there

3 are additional thoughts, feel free to contact us, send us

4 comments or anything, and we'll talk about that with

5 everyone else. I want to make sure you know that.

6 Also, before I can let you go -- and say this to

7 the rest -- but some of the ideas you were just sharing are

8 -- we're thinking about trying to think of something

9 similar, I guess, is the way to say that. So, thank you.

10 But to share that with everyone, it's just --

11 obviously, it's hard to challenge in some ways for eagles

12 than some because it's not just a spot on the ground where

13 there might have been a cultural artifact, but the darn

14 things just keep flying around. And how you draw lines on

15 maps to tell an energy company not to develop there, it's

16 more of a challenge.

17 However, with Chokecherry-Sierra Madre as an

18 example, this version of that conversation is exactly some

19 of the conversation we have been trying to explore. Can you

20 say, around an eagle's nest becomes an area you shouldn't

21 put wind turbines? Do we have authority under these regs to

22 require that? Would citing the impacts, the risk to humans

23 and impacts to Native American cultural and religious needs

24 be one of the reasons that would allow us to say that? And

25 I think it's a useful comment for us to take into



Page 59

1 consideration. Thank you.

2 MR. VOELKER: The 2012 permit for eagle take for

3 the Northern Arapaho, that was specifically bald eagles,

4 correct? Was the tribe and maybe the tribal members -- can

5 -- were they required to show historical activities that

6 required the need for taking bald eagles today?

7 MR. RILEY: Under the regulations, yes, that is

8 what a tribe needs to demonstrate -- is that there is a

9 traditional cultural religious purpose to needing to take

10 the eagle as an eagle from a wild nest as opposed to used

11 parts or something else. We have to meet that standard in

12 issuing a permit.

13 I would also say, in practice, that we would not

14 prefer to be particularly picky about investigating

15 someone's demonstration of that standard if we can avoid

16 that, because that's certainly not what Fish and Wildlife

17 Services' expertise is in -- in understanding Native

18 American traditions and cultural group. We would prefer to

19 defer to that.

20 And Steve Olberholtzer is reserving your

21 discussions about asking for certification by tribes about

22 an individual's need. And he speaks well here to -- we

23 would like to be able to refer to tribes somehow to

24 accomplish that, but it is a requirement under the reg.

25 MR. LASLEY: Raymond Lasley, Osage Nation. I have



Page 60

1 a letter from the State of Oklahoma's Historic Preservation

2 office. And one of the things that they're saying -- if you

3 don't mind, I would like to read this into the record. It

4 is the opinion from the -- from this entity that the

5 assumption should be that the federal action permit issuance

6 of an incidental take permit makes a wind farm undertaking

7 subject to Section 106.

8 If that were true, before the Fish and Wildlife

9 would issue a permit, whether it's a programmatic or an

10 incidental take permit for a particular area, Section 106

11 review would be required through a regulation. Now, you

12 could do that.

13 And as a gentleman was saying earlier, in order --

14 when we do a Section 106 review, we would identify those

15 cultural resources in that -- in that field. And in -- I'm

16 going to use the Osage in this particular case because we're

17 dealing with it now -- there wasn't an adequate 106 review

18 performed by the wind company. That is in question right

19 now. There was a -- the methods they used were questioned.

20 It's been under question now by the State Historic

21 Preservation office as well as the Tribal Historic

22 Preservation office as well.

23 So those things, if -- have lent us to another

24 situation and that, in order to get a voluntary permit --

25 and these are all voluntary; there's nothing mandatory about



Page 61

1 these permit requirements -- that will be another issue that

2 I'd like to see us address, whether to actually put some

3 teeth into the permitting process. We're not seeing that

4 now.

5 And one of the things that Fish and Wildlife

6 recommends to industry is siting. Siting is critical. Do

7 not put wind farms in a migration corridor. Do not put wind

8 farms in an area that's rich in cultural resources. And

9 it's a recommendation that the corporations -- these

10 corporate entities begin consultation with the affected

11 tribes.

12 Now, if none of those have been met -- none of

13 those criteria has been met, then it would be -- it would

14 seem to me that before Fish and Wildlife would issue a

15 permit, whether it's an incidental or programmatic permit,

16 that these situations would need to be resolved.

17 One, making sure that it's a -- it's a proper

18 site. You don't want to build in a migration corridor.

19 Two, cultural resources aren't affected. Three, you consult

20 with the -- with the affected tribe.

21 Now, that is not being -- Fish and Wildlife is not

22 doing that now. And it's not good for folks at the regional

23 office. We're getting the -- this situation is in

24 Washington, D.C., and that's where we're directing our -- a

25 lot of our fight is with the Department of Interior in



Page 62

1 Washington, D.C., And we're trying to get meetings with the

2 Secretary of Washington, D.C., and others, you know, and

3 trying to get these standards raised instead of lowered.

4 And this 30-year permit is ridiculous. And, I

5 mean, we must have missed that consultation on that one to

6 go from a five-year to a 30-year permit. I mean, that's a

7 -- that's a long time. I'll be dead and gone in 30 years,

8 in all likelihood, and these things will still be chopping

9 up eagles year after year after year.

10 And, you know, five-year review, that's too -- too

11 long as well. If you're to do a 30-year permit, then a

12 five-year review is way too long. I mean, two years, 232

13 eagles -- I mean, is not -- that's not feasible.

14 I've got some other things, but, you know, we --

15 we use best management practices, you know, and we use that

16 buzz word -- buzz words. And we're not seeing it. We're

17 not seeing it with this industry. This industry is being

18 given to pass by this Administration. Well, now, not the

19 folks here; just the Administration. And that's what we're

20 seeing most of the situation, and we're -- our struggle is

21 with the Administration.

22 Data; I mean, that's another thing. We're not

23 getting -- we're not getting reliable data. And there's too

24 many variables to get that type of reliable data. If an

25 eagle or another raptor -- and we're seeing -- there will be



Page 63

1 raptors as well. I mean, we're just not talking about

2 eagles. We're talking about hawks, we're talking about

3 owls, we're talking about the different types of migratory

4 birds that will be going through there.

5 In our period of case, we're holding onto one of

6 the last vestiges of tall grass prairie. I mean, our Osage

7 reservation is the southern edge of the front hills. And

8 the front hills is only found in Oklahoma and parts of

9 Kansas. So we're trying to hang onto that as best we can.

10 And you go back to the poor siting. And before

11 Fish and Wildlife issues a permit, all these variables

12 should be considered. And here again I understand, is a

13 voluntary permit, but I would like to see us address it a

14 little more solidly or put something -- a permitting process

15 in there that is actually -- carries some weight.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. RILEY: I'm not going to summarize all of that

18 because we do have a court reporter capturing it in. And

19 those are excellent comments for us in consideration as we

20 move forward. And, clearly, you and your tribe have been

21 very involved in many of these issues.

22 And the only three things I wanted to point out

23 for use of everyone here, one is referring to this as a

24 voluntary permit. For folks who have not been exposed to

25 this issue, what Ray is referring to is the fact that lack



Page 64

1 of a permit is not in itself a violation of the law; killing

2 the eagle is a violation of the law.

3 If a wind company fails to or decides not to apply

4 for a permit but he's lucky enough that an eagle doesn't

5 happen to go through and gets sliced and dies, they're not

6 in violation of the law. And, in that sense, it is

7 absolutely technically accurate to say it's voluntary for a

8 company to decide that they want to apply and obtain a

9 permit so that they would be legal if an eagle were killed.

10 Their decision not to apply for a permit is not a violation;

11 killing an eagle is, of course, a violation. That's just to

12 explain for those of you who haven't been exposed to this

13 issue.

14 The one -- one other thing I was going to mention

15 is you referred to the incidental take permit in Wyoming.

16 I'm assuming the Endangered Species Act. That's the

17 technical term for that kind of a permit entity and say --

18 the reason to reiterate that is to say that that's also, I

19 think, an appropriate way to demonstrate some of the

20 challenges that we are looking at -- when and how, with a

21 programmatic permit under the Eagle Act, should it be

22 considered under the same standards of issuing an incident

23 of a take permit under the Endangered Species Act; when is

24 it similar, when is it not similar. We haven't issued one

25 yet. Including, in your main point, when and how 106 is



Page 65

1 required, the issuing of that permit. And that is certainly

2 under discussion and whether that should be a case-by-case

3 decision; whether that should be a general decision. All

4 these permits should be the same as incidental permits and

5 of the NSA. That, essentially, is an ongoing discussion or

6 comments and are valuable to have.

7 And the third thing I was going to say is, Hey, I

8 grew up in the foothills of Kansas. I'm with you on this.

9 MS. BEGAY: All right. We're going to take a

10 ten-minute break and allow you guys to get up and walk

11 around, get out of this room for a little bit and get some

12 water, coffee. And we'll come back.

13 MR. TYLER: I just wanted to add; are you familiar

14 with Sho-Ban Tribes permit as well and with the

15 consultation? And they showed up and they made me aware of

16 the map. And we -- we asked to -- if the eagles die on the

17 reservation, no matter how, you know, that they'll be --

18 they will be asked -- to have come to us, us tribes, so we

19 can utilize them for our own use and et cetera. And so when

20 that happens -- no answer yet. You know, this is being

21 submitted as a resolution form, and then where did it go?

22 To someone and said, yeah, yeah. And then that was even

23 over there, with our council, our own council submitted it

24 and asked people there. And the U.S. Fish and Wildlife

25 Services said, Hey. So we're still waiting for an answer.



Page 66

1 It's been years, so...

2 So sometimes, you know, it gets the --

3 disrespectful. That's why we need to get those answers and

4 at least say "yes" or "no". But, at least, you know, that's

5 how, for the reservations, for all of our people. If it

6 dies, it belongs to us. And if it's been there and lived

7 there, then it's part of us. And I want to share that.

8 There's laws and acts that have been implemented,

9 but it's where you live -- 30 seconds? Okay. And

10 instigated and developed way back prior to even the

11 consultation process. It's 1879 law. That's old. That

12 needs to be amended. It has been, here and there, a little

13 bit. But, still -- but not tribes' input.

14 And all these other laws, Clean Water Act, all

15 this Clean Air Act; it goes on and on. It's the only one

16 part behind for us. But now is the time to get this

17 implemented; really do it right. So that's what we want to

18 do; make sure it's going right from here. You can do it

19 with four, five or six, whatever. Thank you.

20 MR. MCELROY: Thank you. I appreciate that. We

21 -- the Arapaho members are going to leave here shortly. We

22 appreciate -- we appreciate you guys' interest. However, we

23 do know that you don't make the policy. We understand that.

24 We appreciate the chance to come over and get to speak our

25 piece. We hope that you would get the notice out from this



Page 67

1 consulting session as soon as possible. You do have our

2 contact information because we did receive an invite from

3 you.

4 And I would also like to say that in regard to the

5 Sierra Madre permit, whatever, you know, we -- I've been an

6 Arapaho business council for a while. And -- well, for just

7 a little over a year -- ten months left in my term -- but I

8 have not yet seen a formal consultation letter to the

9 tribes. It may have come. I haven't seen it personally.

10 But please, keep us in your thoughts, so when you

11 want to get out and actually have some consultation

12 regarding this Chokecherry-Sierra Madre permit -- because

13 that is part of the Arapaho ancestral homeland, as is this

14 area, all the way up to the Absolokas (phonetic) down to the

15 Black Hills and along with the Lakotas and the Northern

16 Cheyenne also. Thank you.

17 MS. BEGAY: We're going to take a quick break.

18 MR. TYLER: We don't need a break.

19 MS. BEGAY: If you have something very, very

20 short, then we can do something about that. I have a

21 feeling that we have a need for a break here from everybody

22 around the room.

23 MR. FERRIS: Thank you. Wilfred Ferris from

24 Eastern Shoshone reservation office. I want to elaborate on

25 the ruling on which Mr. Oldman was speaking about. The



Page 68

1 Eastern Shoshone and the Bannock Tribe had a treaty in 1863

2 and 1868 on the forfeiture. And, personally, the Wind River

3 is what you call it.

4 In -- two years ago, 2012, we had a court ruling

5 over Cheyenne that took place over the eagles, and it was

6 the -- the Northern Arapaho to have their permit proposed to

7 get the eagles off the reservation. And their permit hasn't

8 been filed at that time. I was present at that -- over at

9 the court. And we have two tribes living in the reservation

10 -- the Eastern Shoshone and the Northern Arapaho. And what

11 we do is we said, No, we don't want no illegal taking of

12 eagles from the reservation.

13 And so that's the way we stood. And I don't know

14 how -- like a -- we've been in disagreement because the

15 Shoshones, we've been there over 3,000 years. That's our

16 ancestral homeland, 3,000 to 6,000 years. And that area up

17 there, that's how we took care of our area up there. And

18 the Arapaho, they came there about 130 years ago.

19 And so what I'm saying is, that's how we base our

20 -- we don't want illegal taking from the reservation of the

21 eagles. And in the past, too, we had to set up -- we had to

22 set up a game code the same way. And we had this to protect

23 our species. So that's what we did.

24 And so right now, to me, the way I understand it,

25 it just falls -- falls between the Arapaho and the U.S. Fish



Page 69

1 and Wildlife Service for their permit. And I think it was

2 for two -- two -- two bald eagles. But that's the way --

3 that's the way I understood it.

4 I kind of feel bad because my chairman is not

5 here. Our councilman was here earlier, but he left. And

6 they're all aware of all this ruling. And so I came down as

7 part of my office to be able to sit in this eagle -- eagle

8 summit.

9 But right now, we're trying to establish some way

10 that we can be able to develop a program working with --

11 trying to work with the Comanches. And that's what we're

12 trying to do, establish something so that -- are -- we're

13 not going to -- we want our eagles to be able to prosper.

14 Because right now, we have really low eagles right now. So

15 we don't tell them. We don't tell where they're at. And we

16 used to have quite a bit. There are different species, but

17 now we have just various -- very limited.

18 And also, I worked with the Fish and Wildlife

19 office in the Lander office. And I'm waiting for some

20 information from them for the effects why the eagle

21 population has gone down. But, based on that, we're trying

22 to work with the Comanches. And they have their -- the way

23 they set up their sanctuary aviary/repositories. But we're

24 trying to set up something like that. So that way, we're

25 not illegally taking them. And then, also, we can teach our



Page 70

1 younger generation to be able to -- be able get items from

2 the eagles without killing them.

3 Like I told you earlier, how Grandpa used to do

4 it; how they used to trap them. You don't see that anymore.

5 That is being lost. And it's a -- it's a pretty touchy

6 subject because like what Mr. Ron Oldman, councilman, he

7 didn't have no disrespect to us Eastern Shoshones and the

8 same, vice versa. Because, that ruling, we stand by our

9 treaty. And once you have your treaty, that's -- that's the

10 contract with the government. We -- we -- we signed that

11 with the government. So we rely on the government to stand

12 up on their end. That's what we do. So that's how we have

13 the government-to-government consultation, government

14 relationship.

15 So even though they put on there, we had to go to

16 court in the '30s. And it was trespassing; not 50/50

17 homeland. Only for trespassing. And when you research that

18 more, you'll find out what that trespassing means. That's

19 why, we stand on our treaty 1863 and 1868. Sho-Ban has the

20 same treaty. So that's what I wanted to clarify.

21 And, like I say, I want to apologize because my

22 chairman, he had other -- something came up, so he had to

23 take off and he couldn't attend this meeting. But he was

24 supposed to be here. So I am the next in line. My other

25 councilman, he was here earlier, but he left, too. So I had



Page 71

1 to step up and then also answer Mr. Oldman's -- council

2 Oldman's suggestions earlier.

3 I don't -- in order -- in order to be able to get

4 this thing, like, situated, the other alternative was to be

5 able to set up a program where we're able to have those

6 types of species and then also to be able to utilize them.

7 But not killing them. Killing them and take them and use

8 them to help people. That's -- that's where I'm -- I don't

9 understand that. Because once that person is able to do

10 that, that -- that species is gone. And they're trying to

11 bring that back to be able to help that person that is sick.

12 How are you going to do that? Whereas you use and utilize

13 those items in the correct way to help that person or those

14 people.

15 It's hard to explain. But like this man right

16 here, he was talking about that. That man who walked in

17 here, he was talking about that. Only those people -- only

18 those people that take care of those things, they'll tell

19 you that, too.

20 So that's what I wanted to -- it's kind of hard --

21 it's kind of hard to explain it. But, like I said, I don't

22 want to offend them, but this is our right. And I hold that

23 treaty. That's my treaty. So I have to stand and stand up

24 for my treaty, even though my councilmen aren't here. But

25 that's my treaty between the government and my people.



Page 72

1 My inherited right; like they say -- that's what

2 the man said right here, inherited right. How could a

3 person go to your home and -- and take something that he'll

4 have a document saying that he's entitled to that?

5 Like I said, we've been there anywhere from 3,000

6 to 6,000 years. I'm sorry, but they've only been there for

7 130 years. And that's, you know, that's -- history will

8 prove it; historical sites, prehistoric sites will prove

9 that. So I just want to say that.

10 MS. BEGAY: All ready. Thank you. Since we have

11 some folks that really want to go until 5:00 p.m., we're

12 going to continue. I haven't heard from any of Pueblo --

13 Pueblo of San Felipe and also Santa Clara, I want to give

14 them an opportunity as well.

15 MR. GUTIERREZ: Good afternoon. Just a few

16 comments, you know. I guess, you know -- I guess, just one

17 concern, kind of stepping away from the subject a little

18 bit, is -- is, maybe you guys should schedule this for,

19 like, two days, you know, because this gentleman -- we have

20 a lot of things to say. And she hits 5:00. We only got to

21 one of your topics up there. Maybe next time -- in the

22 future, maybe do it for maybe two or three days, you know,

23 because we all have a lot of issues. These gentlemen have a

24 lot of issues and they have a lot of things to say, you

25 know. So maybe in the future, you can think about doing



Page 73

1 those things also.

2 But just a few comments, you know, on this -- on

3 the -- I guess, the -- when we read this, the one concern we

4 had was that 30-year permit thing, you know. And I guess

5 the thing is, if those companies or whoever -- and I guess

6 you kind of explained a little bit that they'll have to be

7 reviewed every five years. If -- if you give one of those

8 permits to somebody and, you know, the eagles, they kill

9 someone or they fight someone, who's going to -- are they

10 going to give it to the repository? How is that going to be

11 handled?

12 MR. RILEY: First, yes. We have heard -- I take

13 that as a comment that concerns about the 30-year permit,

14 and we certainly have that on the record. That's a fairly

15 recent decision, but we will certainly report that as a

16 concern.

17 The eagles that are taken, as long as they are

18 within the permit and there's no reason for a law

19 enforcement investigation or something like that, would be

20 going to the repository. The only exception might be if

21 there's a concern about the way they're operating in the

22 facilities; the fact that they are killing an eagle is In

23 excess of what was permitted, was not in compliance with the

24 permits, something like that, there might be a need -- the

25 law enforcement investigation might be an example where it



Page 74

1 wouldn't immediately go to a repository if it was evidence.

2 But, otherwise, the general rule is if there's an eagle

3 carcass, will go to the repository.

4 MR. CANDELARIA: My name is Daryl Candelaria. I'm

5 the tribal administrator for Pueblo San Felipe. This is a

6 very great discussion that's going on here. And what I

7 would like to mention is, hopefully, all this information

8 gets sent to the regional offices. We're not a part of the

9 mountain region here. We're a part of the southwest there

10 in New Mexico.

11 And I see this time and again, and I believe your

12 respective tribes also see this as when we go to Washington

13 to meet with the leaders there, you know, the heads of the

14 department, the Interior Department or what have you, it

15 seems to me that the word there is very different from the

16 local level. You know, there, they say, Okay, we'll do this

17 and we'll do that. But when we come down to the local

18 level, you know, there's so many obstacles that's put in

19 front of us.

20 You know, one of the gentlemen mentioned this

21 morning, where I would say -- and I was thinking they're

22 sitting -- I was hoping somebody mentions this -- but we're

23 among the most heavily-regulated population within the

24 country. You know, why is it that we have to have permits

25 to practice our religion? And, you know, I saw a great



Page 75

1 comment recently -- and I don't want to put any specific

2 religion down -- but I think it was the -- one of the Plains

3 leaders in the past said "holy water". All holy -- our

4 water is holy. You know, it's not just because of the

5 church that it's holy, you know. It's everything. Every

6 drop of water is holy, wherever it is.

7 But I guess the reason why I say this is, you

8 know, when -- before we came up here, in my position, I

9 opened up and read all the correspondence. It says that

10 come in for our -- at the tribal office from the federal

11 government to state government.

12 And we recently got a letter from the U.S. Forest

13 Service telling us that, you know, they've put together

14 again some documentation for us to follow in order to

15 collect herbs and foliage in the nearby forest to practice

16 our religion. You know, why is it that I have to have a CIB

17 card to collect what we need in the forest whereas

18 non-natives, they just get a little permit to go get a

19 Christmas tree? You know, what's -- where is the, I guess,

20 justice in that?

21 You know, but, again, coming on behalf of our

22 leadership and the rest of Pueblo, we didn't realize that

23 this is going to be a government-to-government consultation.

24 There are religious leaders at Pueblo, you know, that would

25 speak on more -- on what we're discussing here. And again,



Page 76

1 I just want to thank all the tribal leaders for the comments

2 here.

3 Just one last thing about these utility

4 corporations. And I see that this is more of a wider -- you

5 know, with a lot of the wind turbines going up. We do have

6 a significant amount of wind turbines going up in east

7 central New Mexico. And right now, we're dealing with a

8 major corporation out of Houston who is wanting to put --

9 get a new right-of-way through our reservation. These

10 corporations have never worked with tribes before. And then

11 it's like a whole total, you know, education process for

12 them to come up from Houston, from their corporate offices.

13 And they come through our tribal offices, and they're like,

14 Oh, wow, culture shock, you know.

15 And I think it's about time that we stand up for

16 what we believe in. You know, I did mention to the

17 personnel when they came to our last right-of-way meeting is

18 whatever right-of-way that was negotiated back in the early

19 -- in the -- the turn of the 20th century when the

20 electricity lines were going up, we weren't at the table.

21 My -- my leaders were not at the table. Times are different

22 now. We're at the table. This is how we value our land,

23 and we have the right to do that.

24 You know, we inherited what happened in the past.

25 Our children will inherit what we do today. And so it's



Page 77

1 very imperative that we all stick to what our beliefs -- our

2 core beliefs that we all believe in. The eagle is at the

3 center of this. And I want to thank all of you. Thank you.

4 MS. BEGAY: All right. Thank you. What I want to

5 do is take -- right over here.

6 MR. LUJAN: Many powerful words have been spoken

7 today and this afternoon. The elder guy who was standing

8 here, he gave us an extensive -- we must stand up

9 altogether. We need summits like this on our people here.

10 We're all relation. And somebody mentioned about congress.

11 We need to get together; perhaps march together. I don't

12 know how, but we need to group together.

13 More of these summits need to be taking place in

14 the New Mexico area and all throughout the states where we

15 can empower ourselves and strengthen our minds. There are a

16 lot of tribes from the Pueblos here throughout the United

17 States. We have medicine men and women; they need to be

18 here also. So you can understand, really, our core of our

19 beliefs in reference to eagles and feathers.

20 I was told when cell phone came in, that this is a

21 very important technical thing. But, a long time ago, the

22 eagle feathers were wireless. We can communicate. When one

23 goes to the other side of the ocean to fight for our

24 country, we have ways of saving people, pray to them, eagle

25 feather, for the well-being of our boys and the young



Page 78

1 warriors and the young women who are out there. We have

2 communication with feathers to communicate with our Creator

3 or Maker. Also, the moon, the sun, our feathers.

4 I don't go deep into detail, but you must

5 understand our ways. How, when the light comes up in the

6 morning, you're a part of our prayers. So all this comes

7 down to -- to gather ourselves together as one relation so

8 we can address this in congress and do it the right way.

9 Thank you.

10 MS. BEGAY: Thank you for your words.

11 What I want to do is -- at this point, we've only

12 gone through one topic that we have up there on the list.

13 We do have Northern Cheyenne's vice president who is willing

14 to come back tomorrow. And we also have the folks from San

15 Felipe who are willing to come back tomorrow as well.

16 What I wanted to do is ask the rest of you: Would

17 you be willing to come back tomorrow morning to continue

18 this discussion that we've been having? I'm getting a nod

19 from council; I'm getting a nod from Osage.

20 Lee Juan?

21 MR. TYLER: Yeah. What time are we going to go

22 through the -- after the --

23 MS. BEGAY: I'm sure we could pull a few strings

24 because you could -- we also have tour group that are signed

25 up for the tour as well.



Page 79

1 MR. TYLER: I would like to call this the

2 listening session. It's no proper consultation whatsoever.

3 So it's another listening session. And I agree; I will be

4 here tomorrow to listen and learn from each other. You

5 know, there's a lot of issues going on. And there's a lot

6 of tribes that do have minerals, and then they're probably

7 restricted due to the fact that they're like the fiduciary

8 and responsibility of the government. The trust. And some

9 of them have to go get the minerals and get the -- so they

10 can survive.

11 And that's what I said; it's unfortunate. And,

12 you know, we should be -- us tribes, you know, put against

13 each other to a great respect for each other and how -- how

14 it -- it came about.

15 And not -- not to offend you guys, but the

16 Euro-Americans, like, they brought all this to us. They

17 brought all this tension, reservation, and Mother Earth and

18 how it's divided up from the Europeans. There's no states.

19 Mother Earth is Mother Earth now. And the gentleman that

20 shared that -- Crow Dog.

21 Just be careful. So I want to say that.

22 MS. BEGAY: Let me go back to that initial

23 question of who's willing to come back.

24 MR. LASLEY: There's a little bit I want to

25 address to everybody here about Mr. Crow Dog. The reason



Page 80

1 why we have consultations today or listening sessions today

2 was directly the result of that gentleman's work. He was

3 the spiritual leader to the American Indian Movement in 1973

4 during -- at Wounded Knee takeover. He was at the -- at the

5 very heart of negotiating terms with the United States

6 government or the -- or the ending of the occupation. That

7 -- those -- those negotiations went on for -- it seemed like

8 a very long time. I don't know; months. The whole time I

9 was there, they were negotiating. He and several others,

10 they put their lives on the line. People died as a result

11 of that occupation.

12 And I just wanted everyone to know how critical it

13 is for those tribal leaders to come to these types of

14 listening sessions and to impart their wisdom on the rest of

15 us. It -- it is involvement.

16 The other leaders that were there -- Russell

17 Means, Dennis Banks, Stan Holder, Carter Camp; it goes on

18 and on -- but -- but they were -- they were the ones that

19 taught us -- taught me about tribal sovereignty. They

20 taught me about tribal self-determination.

21 In 1975, two years after the Wounded Knee

22 occupation, the congress enacted the Indian Education and

23 Self-determination Act, signed by President Nixon. That was

24 a direct result of the occupation of Wounded Knee and the

25 work that Mr. Crow Dog did. I just want to let everybody



Page 81

1 know about that. Most everybody knows that anyway, but --

2 thank you.

3 MR. VOELKER: I won't be able to join you

4 tomorrow. Unfortunately, I'm going to be on a plane in the

5 morning. It's nesting season back home, and I got eagles

6 relying on me to be there.

7 The imprint birds will go through nesting.

8 Actually, there's some disappointment with our friends here

9 because I planned to bring one of our third-generation

10 captive produced golden eagles with us today because we --

11 the one thing that's been consistent now about all three

12 eagle summits is we hear -- and no offense, but a gentleman

13 here made a comment -- all those captive eagles behind bars

14 are prisoners. They're like, they don't have as much

15 medicine.

16 Well, we're breeding eagles that I worked with

17 their grandparents back in the 70s. We're bringing this new

18 eagle life forward in a way that while we're trying to

19 decide through the Service whether propagation of eagles is

20 going to be allowed in a bigger way, right now, we're the

21 only ones charged with that sacred duty. And we're honored

22 by that. We take that responsibility very seriously.

23 But you probably wondered, what's this Comanche

24 doing up here in this country? Well, we have a history

25 here, too, where there's two rivers that come together. Our



Page 82

1 response -- that are dear and sacred to us. And we left the

2 high country in the north. We broke away from our

3 Sheepeater background and came gradually under the southern

4 Plains. So we have a stake here today. It's good to be

5 here, always, and with our ties here.

6 But, I'm here mainly -- and, like in the old days,

7 a person was called upon. If you were up in this country or

8 a country of another tribe, you had to show that you had the

9 wherewithal, a reason to be there.

10 So my -- my warrior story for you-all is that I

11 stand here as the first Native American to ever hold permits

12 from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service for the care and

13 breeding of bald and golden eagles. I'm the only Native

14 American who has bred both species and the only person in

15 this country to have bred both species by artificial

16 insemination.

17 Now, that sounds like a term that really puts off

18 some of the elders and holy people until they understand, by

19 living with the eagles, bringing a fourth generation of

20 eagles that imprint to you; they choose to be with you.

21 These are birds that get the opportunity to fly free.

22 There's nothing like having an eagle to spec in

23 the sky and bringing out our ho-hots (phonetic) on it or our

24 eagle-bone whistle and calling to that bird and that bird

25 dives out of the air and lands on your glove. I just can't



Page 83

1 tell you what it's like. But that's one of the great joys

2 in my life.

3 But that young adult we were going to bring, we

4 are -- we are going to be producing fourth generation in

5 captivity. It's never been done; never been done in this

6 country. But it's something that everybody needs to take

7 pride in because it's done in the sacred format of our

8 special sensitive spiritual ways with these birds that comes

9 forward with us.

10 So -- so the Arapaho/Shoshone situation that we're

11 sensitively dancing around, it was a bittersweet day at

12 home. We fought for years to get a special authority for

13 captive propagation under Native religious use. It was a

14 big step forward. That's the reason I made that correction

15 on that form. Produced the first golden eagle produced

16 under a religious use permit. And in 2010 and 2012, we

17 hatched the first bald eagle under that authority. But it

18 happened to be the same day that the news release came out

19 that the Northern Arapaho were given the authority to kill.

20 It was hard, you know; one Indian country, they're happy

21 they got a legal authority to kill, and back home, we're

22 hatching this egg and caring for it in our hands.

23 So you don't know where to stand sometimes because

24 you don't want to talk about anybody else's ways. But we

25 went up to one river. We took bald eagle feathers many



Page 84

1 times and distributed them to the spiritual leaders as they

2 were identified to us and showing them that there's another

3 way to -- maybe we can help in this regard. We've even

4 saved 148 different federally-recognized tribes from molted

5 feathers from those eagles that we care for at home. And so

6 there are other ways. And I just want to open your minds to

7 think in that regard; good ways, ethical, absolutely legal.

8 Oh, the reason that eagle is not with me today --

9 our federal permits allow us to take eagles anywhere in this

10 country, but you have to have a corresponding state

11 authority. It was too short a time and Colorado didn't

12 issue a permit. So we didn't break that rule. And we, you

13 know, let that the bird stay home. But, hopefully, the next

14 eagle summit, we can arrange well enough in advance and be

15 able to share the living bird. Because that was the thing

16 alarming for we Numunuu, the Comanche. We were watching our

17 people losing our connect with the living. And, you know,

18 everybody's talking about eagle carcasses, eagle feathers

19 and eagle this and that. But it's knowing intimately that

20 medicine work.

21 Talk about endangered species. That's what's

22 endangered in Indian country. Yes, we still have doctors

23 and we still have medicine people. Many, many different

24 tribes come to us. They take feathers from these living

25 eagles. The eagles give up the feather by molting each



Page 85

1 year. We've had numerous Indian doctors come to us and say,

2 This feather from an eagle that we know is living and

3 breathing there at Sia, it had so much more meaning to the

4 people helping. We've had people show up healed from the --

5 you know, the near-death as it was -- the way it was told to

6 us. They come to see that living eagle whose feather helped

7 them at a time of need.

8 So there are other ways. And in -- in closing, I

9 guess, what I would like to say is there's means within the

10 permitting process with U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to

11 anything we want to do, that we require to do in our

12 historical authentic ways. And it's working with the

13 Service.

14 I can stand here and say we have seven authorities

15 that exist with us that don't exist with any other tribes.

16 Captive breeding is just one of them. For 40 years, I

17 fought for a non-eagle repository permit. 40 years it took

18 to finally get that made into a permittal -- and it was in a

19 pilot period for two years -- and now it's going permanent.

20 So it takes persistence.

21 And I just want to leave with you this one last

22 thought. And that, we live by the motto today and our

23 mantra at home is that an eagle should no longer have to

24 forfeit its life to benefit culture. So think -- think of

25 these medicine birds that way.



Page 86

1 MS. BEGAY: I'm going to go ahead and turn the

2 time over to Clint and then also to Noreen to provide us

3 with a few closing comments. They also have a couple of

4 things that they want to share with the group in terms of --

5 I want to call them "action items" or "commitments"; things

6 that they're willing to do on their part, based on the

7 discussions that we've had throughout the day. I want to go

8 and turn it over to Clint.

9 MR. RILEY: First and foremost, thank you for your

10 time, for your sharing today, for your patience as we work

11 through these topics; the realization that, once again, you

12 had a federal agency that misjudged how much time you might

13 need for effective discussion. And then I hope all of you

14 are willing and able to come back tomorrow and can continue

15 the conversation.

16 To summarize today, starting at the end, for this

17 topic, as I said, this is a high-priority action on behalf

18 of the Fish and Wildlife Service to review these regulations

19 that were created in 2009. We intend to have something

20 available to the public as a proposal this summer. As we

21 move through this process, I hope you and other tribes stay

22 engaged. And I appreciate your comments today on that and

23 look forward to comments on other topics tomorrow.

24 On some of the discussions from this morning, we

25 want to think about some of the potential action items. Two



Page 87

1 of them that we discussed as a group this morning -- if you

2 want me to try to cover those briefly -- one is simply the

3 recognition that from our perspective -- and we are

4 interpreting from your perspective -- these conversations

5 are valued. This is the third eagle summit. We are looking

6 through a glass darkly sometimes to see the -- see the light

7 and then grow in understanding. But we think we're moving

8 in that direction, and we would have an intention of hosting

9 another eagle summit in the future, presumably, in the next

10 year, and potentially making this just a -- someone else was

11 talking about consistency and developing that

12 relationship -- turning this into something that is a

13 regular part of our relationship, I think, would be

14 meaningful to us as we work towards that.

15 The other thing that we were hearing about your --

16 from this morning is a concern of the cultural sensitivity

17 of -- certainly, our own staff and our agents, still, but

18 even more so, the people who aren't a part of the Fish and

19 Wildlife Service, representatives of the federal government,

20 and their need to understand that things that we may say

21 here about our intention and our interpretations should be

22 the way that the others do when you're crossing a border

23 when you have something with you that you legally have the

24 right to have and people's understanding of that and aware

25 of that.



Page 88

1 And at least one other action item that we were

2 taking from this morning is whether we can develop some sort

3 of a proposal to the Department of Justice; for example, a

4 paper of how we can reach out to some other of our sister

5 agencies and share -- to the extent that we have gained an

6 understanding of your concerns -- share that in a way that

7 may affect how -- how your relationship with other law

8 enforcement agencies and other agencies may move forward.

9 That's clearly beyond our control of this table in so many

10 ways, but it's a step that we're going to do that and is

11 important enough that we should try to pursue something.

12 Is there a better way to summarize that?

13 MR. OLBERHOLTZER. I think you hit it. What I was

14 going to say and thinking is, working with Scott and the

15 tribal representative and to put together some type of

16 information product that we can share with other agencies

17 and the other law enforcement divisions in how to deal with

18 the Native Americans who are possessing feathers.

19 MS. WALSH: Ladies and gentlemen, I do want to

20 make some closing comments, but we're not closing yet. So

21 I'm going to keep my remarks brief right now because I have

22 listened today and I have learned a lot. But we're coming

23 back tomorrow. And I'm not done with my learning. So

24 tomorrow, when we close, I'll share some thoughts with you

25 about what we heard from you, what it meant to us and what



Page 89

1 we can do about it.

2 Today, for tonight, I will just say thank you to

3 each and every one of you for what you've shared with us.

4 We are listening to you. We value the time that you've

5 spent with us. We want to come back tomorrow. We'll be

6 here from 9:00 until 11:00 to try to tackle the rest of the

7 subjects that we didn't get to today. It's my hope that

8 every one of you can come back and be a part of that.

9 And then even after tomorrow, that will not be the

10 last time that we talk with you or discuss these issues. It

11 will just be another beginning. So thank you very much.

12 MR. TYLER: Even those insects out there, the air

13 we breathe, they're all sacred. So you can understand it's

14 difficult. It's hard, you know, to explain to everybody,

15 you know. We try to educate everyone and that they have

16 enough interest that still comes about. You know, the

17 story, you know, we're better than you; we're supreme, that

18 still happens. That happens in Idaho a lot. We're a racial

19 state. It's really sad. There's Republicans and there are

20 Tea Party, and then we can't get nothing done. You know, we

21 try to get things up for them; it don't happen.

22 We need to change that around. And it starts with

23 the young children; starts in the elementary. They're way

24 smarter than we are now. Not going straight to college and

25 learn about Indians, from the experts. You've got to -- I



Page 90

1 think you've got to -- to a certain extent -- not

2 everything -- just to a certain extent that we can share so

3 much. And that will be a -- that that's where we go from,

4 move forward, step forward. And I think these can be

5 accomplished better -- and respect. I wish everyone was

6 like you guys. I think America will be a real beautiful

7 place. And we walk out this door and we're going to maybe

8 feel that.

9 There used to be no Indians allowed in our places.

10 You know -- and my uncle, we just buried him two weeks ago.

11 He joined in for all -- there was very few -- he went to

12 teach in Korea. He came back in Idaho to go have a meal

13 with her. And we don't serve Indians in here. So he was

14 pissed off. And when the Ames came to us, knocking on my

15 door, you want to come join us? I said, Yeah. I was only

16 14. But, you know, that was after Wounded Knee that he was

17 talking about. There was so much suicide going on. But

18 there's so much each tribe could share. And then we can't,

19 you know, just share so much. Nobody knows about our

20 people. Just very few. There was a Bear Massacre in 1863,

21 400 of our people were massacred. And there was a manic

22 massacre over here in Green River, Wyoming, 120 miles east

23 of Ogden where Salt Lake -- the Gila River, in 1825, 400

24 bandits were wiped out. There were different bands, not

25 just, you know, the Comanche relatives and East Shoshone.



Page 91

1 We were all part of these areas, both sides of the Rockies.

2 So we could share with the Arapahos and all the other

3 tribes, the Cheyennes. And we know that every tribe in our

4 reservation, they share our Indian health service.

5 I have a son-in-law. He's a Northern Arapaho, and

6 I have a little grandson and he's a Northern Arapaho. So

7 you know, we have to respect everybody. And, you know, it's

8 hard to get involved with all these fights going on. And

9 especially the North Dakota, they've got the great boom

10 going on. They're rich here -- got oil. There's tribes

11 like that, that, you know, have to have that. So it's

12 unfortunate. So I think there's so much we've got to learn

13 from here. The Navajo Nation, they're the largest.

14 But still, you know, there's so much. There's big

15 giant eagles in Siberia. It's like Yellowstone National

16 Park, 700 miles long. Those golden eagles are way bigger

17 than our eagles here. So the continent was at one time

18 together.

19 MS. WALSH: Thank you for that, Lee Juan. And I

20 want to make one more comment. I really appreciate what you

21 said and I like to look for what we do have in common. I

22 know that we don't share everything -- everybody together in

23 this room, but I like to look at what we do have in common

24 and build on that.

25 And so when you point to those pictures on the



Page 92

1 wall and talk about how they are sacred and talk about how

2 it's our duty to protect and share for those things, I can

3 tell you that those of us in the Fish and Wildlife Service,

4 that's why we're here in the Fish and Wildlife Service

5 because we share that perspective. So I'm confident we can

6 build on what we have in common and go forward. Thank you.

7 MS. BEGAY: All right. Before we break for the

8 day, the way that I was taught was that before you leave and

9 after you have shared a lot of words; you have a lot of good

10 minds that have come together; they talk about a lot of

11 different issues; they talk about a lot of different

12 things -- when there's a lot of words that had happened, you

13 always have to pray about it, pray that words get heard and,

14 you know, we do the best that we can as we walk out the

15 door. So I ask Lujan, he's the lieutenant WarChief, to help

16 us out with the closing prayer. So I'm going to turn it

17 over to Lujan.

18 (Prayers were said.)

19 WHEREUPON, the within proceedings were concluded

20 at the approximate hour of 5:10 p.m. on the 20th day of

21 March, 2014.

22 * * * * * *

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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

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3 STATE OF COLORADO )

4 ) ss.

5 CITY AND COUNTY OF DENVER )

6 I, DOREEN GIRDEEN, Registered Merit Reporter and

7 Notary Public, State of Colorado, do hereby certify that the

8 said HEARING was taken in machine shorthand by me at the time

9 and place aforesaid and was thereafter reduced to typewritten

10 form, consisting of 94 pages herein; that the foregoing is a

11 true transcript of the questions asked, statements given, and

12 proceedings had. I further certify that I am not employed

13 by, related to, nor of counsel for any of the parties herein,

14 nor otherwise interested in the outcome of this hearing.

15 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my signature and

16 seal this 27th day of March, 2014.

17 My commission expires March 16, 2015.

18______________________________________________

19 Doreen GirdeenRegistered Merit Reporter

20

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Transcript of the Testimony of


vs.

Wendy McCaffrey C.L.R.

Wendy McCaffrey C.L.R.

Hansen and Company, Inc.Registered Professional Reporters

1600 Broadway, Ste. 470Denver, Colorado 80202

Phone (303) 691-0202 * Fax(303) 691-2444



Page 1

EAGLE SUMMIT III

DENVER, COLORADO

MARCH 21, 2014

GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT CONSULTATIONS

This hearing was held at Rocky Mountain

Arsenal National Wildlife Refuge, 6550 Gateway Road,

Commerce City, Colorado 80022, on March 21, 2014, at

9:10 a.m., before Wendy McCaffrey, Professional Court

Reporter and Notary Public within Colorado.



Page 2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S

2 Mr. Clint RileyMs. Noreen Walsh

3 Mr. Steve OberholtzerMr. Mark Roundstone

4 Mr. Darrel ShayMr. Ricardo Ortiz

5 Mr. Raymond LasleyMr. Lee Juan Tyler

6 Mr. Conrad FisherMr. Wes Martel

7 Ms. Jannell SuazoMr. Kelly Hogan

8 Mr. Jesse GutierrezMr. Albino Lujan

9 Mr. Winfield RussellAnd others in attendance who did not speak during the

10 conference

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Page insert by Ivy Allen 4/1/2014.**Page added to note the consultation participant’s Tribe.

Mark Roundstone, Northern Cheyenne TribeDarrell Shay, Shoshone-Bannock TribeRicardo Ortiz, Pueblo of San FelipeRaymond Lasley, Osage NationLee Juan Tyler, Shoshone-Bannock TribesConrad Fisher, Northern Cheyenne TribeWes Martel, Eastern ShoshoneJess C. Gutierrez, Santa Clara Pueblo Albino Lujan, Taos PuebloWinfield Russell, Northern Cheyenne Tribe



Page 3

1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 MR. ROUNDSTONE: I'd like to say good

3 morning, everyone. Hope your day is good. My name is

4 Mark Roundstone. I represent the Northern Cheyenne

5 Tribe.

6 I work as the acting director for the

7 national program. More so, more important, I'm very

8 active in traditions. I sit on one of our societies

9 that we have created many hundreds of years ago.

10 Again, I want to greet each and every one of

11 you this morning. A gentleman sang a song yesterday to

12 start us off. We liked that. I'll do the same.

13 I'd like to think about all the natives that

14 are all the nations' brothers coming into town,

15 traveling today and throughout the weekend for the

16 Denver March Powwow. I've been to the Powwow most of

17 my life. Powwow is a form of healing.

18 Our elders and ones that are invalid sit

19 there and watch the dancers. In a few minutes, they're

20 out there dancing. In a few minutes, they feel really

21 happy and good. It's a form of healing.

22 The song I'm going to sing is a -- the

23 Cheyennes, we call it Journey Song. A couple of

24 hundred years ago, a hundred years ago, 50 years ago,

25 we sang it to our warriors when they were leaving.



Page 4

1 It's kind of a blessing song.

2 Today, we sing it for a different kind of

3 warrior, modern, some that are going into the military.

4 I call it a different kind of warrior, because today, a

5 new battle is being fought in places like here. We

6 have to arm ourselves differently, with a degree, with

7 knowledge, common sense.

8 All of us among here sitting here are

9 warriors, because we're here in protection of our

10 people. And our people are those that cannot speak for

11 themselves, but the eagles are our brothers. They're

12 people with wings. They're made up of the same

13 material that we're made of, mostly water.

14 (Singing.)

15 (Prayer.)

16 MR. RILEY: We have some name tags. And

17 those are the -- pass them back around so we know --

18 these aren't my names.

19 MS. WALSH: Good morning, everybody. Thank

20 you so much for coming down today. Thank you,

21 Mr. Roundstone, for the prayer this morning. It's a

22 very wonderful way for us to start the second part of

23 our meeting.

24 We're looking forward to talking with you

25 about the topics that we didn't get to present



Page 5

1 yesterday and hear your input of those. We have until

2 11:00 today. We will have to close the meeting at

3 11:00. So I want to make the best use of our time this

4 morning.

5 And I'm going to turn it over to Clint, who

6 you know from yesterday, to start off with the next

7 topic that we didn't get to discuss. And we'll move

8 right into those things. Thank you.

9 MR. OBERHOLTZER: If anybody wanted a

10 repository tour -- I know there were some people that

11 did, instead of participating in the formal government

12 consultation -- Tom Tidwell, the gentleman back there

13 in the green shirt, is going to be heading out on the

14 repository tours right now.

15 We'll also offer one for anyone who wants one

16 after we're done with the consultation.

17 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Is there a refuge tour

18 later also?

19 MR. OBERHOLTZER: There is one. There is a

20 refuge tour for whoever wants one of those after the

21 repository tour.

22 MR. RILEY: Good morning. One -- another

23 point that I was asked to announce, we had some

24 applications for repository pieces, and I guess we ran

25 out yesterday. So if you were wanting to pick one of



Page 6

1 those up and couldn't see them until they ran out,

2 we've got some more today.

3 As we get started today, we're -- we're going

4 to try to get to everything. So I'm just going to go

5 back and start at the -- what we had at the top of the

6 list in the order, and we'll try to get to everything.

7 The bullet that had been listed first dealt

8 with depredating eagles. Does everyone still have some

9 of the handouts we had yesterday that summarized each

10 of these issues?

11 Again, we'll have a slide up here that is an

12 overview, but there's a little bit more information

13 that was in writing, including in that information --

14 and if anyone doesn't have that, we've got some extra

15 copies right over here.

16 So, again, what I'll try to do is give a,

17 hopefully, briefer and more concise summary on most of

18 these issues. These are each -- they're not simple

19 issues. They're meaningful issues. But they can be

20 summarized more quickly, in terms of why it is we're

21 bringing them to you and asking for input.

22 In terms of management of depredating eagles,

23 they're --they're currently in regulation, coming from

24 the statute. The Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act

25 is the ability to issue permits to remove an eagle if



Page 7

1 it is depredating on livestock or wildlife.

2 There's some human health and safety, and

3 there's some more potentially complicated issues. But

4 for purposes of this, in the handout, it describes what

5 I verbally described yesterday as three criteria that

6 we have to say we agree with before we can issue that

7 permit, that removing the eagle would not impact the

8 wild population status, that there really is

9 depredation going on of a serious nature.

10 And there was a question about that yesterday

11 in the discussion about the challenge of knowing that.

12 And the third being that we don't believe there's

13 another way that we can address that depredation.

14 In practice, then, that third criteria means

15 that, when we look at these permits, we generally start

16 with a permit that would allow someone only to haze the

17 eagles to scare them off their livestock.

18 If that's not working and there still is a

19 problem, then we would change that permit to allow

20 them -- to allow the eagle to be trapped and moved away

21 from that location in hope they would not come back to

22 the livestock.

23 Those two both take -- require take permits,

24 because disturbing the eagle or trapping and moving it

25 is something that would impact the eagles, such that it



Page 8

1 meets the legal definition of "take." But it's only if

2 those two forms of permit don't work that we would

3 issue a permit that allows someone to remove an eagle

4 from the wild.

5 This is of a special interest to falconers,

6 because that's, essentially, the only way that

7 falconers can acquire golden eagles for use in

8 falconry. The law says that they can use golden eagles

9 in falconry, but compared to other types of raptors

10 that they can use for falconry, this is the only way

11 they can get a golden eagle.

12 And some of you may have been exposed to some

13 of the falconers, and they have great frustrations.

14 They feel like the law has told them this is something

15 they can do, but it's difficult to acquire the eagle.

16 In practice, we also issued very, very few of these

17 permits in the past.

18 With that background, some of the things

19 that, internally, we've been considering as potential

20 amendments to this regulation -- they don't have to be

21 the only things we talk about, but we want to make

22 sure, before we move forward on anything like this,

23 that we get some input.

24 One is that, in practice, we currently issue

25 the permits to USDA Fish and Wildlife Services. That's



Page 9

1 the government agency that generally deals with

2 depredating wildlife. And so we've issued a permit to

3 them.

4 We're considering changing those regulations

5 so that it would be more likely or more common that we

6 would issue a permit to a landowner or to the livestock

7 producer, or in some cases may issue a permit to a

8 state agency, who would be using the permit if it was

9 because the golden eagles were hurting some other

10 wildlife population.

11 The second potential topic is to change the

12 permit so that it clearly -- or change the regulation

13 so it clearly says you can never take the eagle

14 lethally. There would be no -- you could never kill

15 the eagle to address depredation.

16 And we haven't issued permits that would

17 allow that in recent past. But the regulations will

18 allow that if necessary. We could rewrite the

19 regulations to say that we would never do that. The

20 most we can do is we do remove it from the wild, where

21 it would still be alive or with the falconer.

22 Because the third thing we're considering is

23 establishing a priority order and say in the regulation

24 who we should check with first if an eagle were to be

25 removed from the wild because it was depredating, of



Page 10

1 the various potential people who could possess an

2 eagle, is there a priority order that we would check

3 with right there?

4 And, obviously, in doing that, the second

5 question would be, what would that priority be? And

6 within that consideration would be whether Native

7 Americans would want that eagle or an aviary would use

8 that eagle, compared to some other potential places

9 that that eagle could go to. So those are topics that

10 we have under consideration.

11 Once again, there's been no proposal. We

12 would have to make a proposal publicly for the entire

13 world to see before we could move forward on this. And

14 we'd receive public comments at that point.

15 So this discussion is before even developing

16 that proposal for the rest of the world to comment on.

17 And we'd be interested in what comments you have.

18 MR. SHAY: Good morning. My name is Darrell

19 Shay. I guess -- I guess my question is, Why the

20 change? Why the change to -- other than the U.S. --

21 USDA at (inaudible), and then including the -- I guess,

22 the falconers, who -- who exactly are falconers?

23 What status do they hold? And why are they

24 given special consideration, when it seems like, you

25 know, for almost all of yesterday, we were testifying,



Page 11

1 you know, that unique relationship that we have with

2 this bird, you know, and how sacred it is to us?

3 Have they testified and told you how sacred

4 it is to them? Because, in my opinion -- and I don't

5 know anything about falconry -- but I -- but it sounds

6 to me like it's a sport. And, basically, it's for

7 commercialization, because why else would you do it,

8 you know? You have guns to kill things, okay?

9 And if they're -- if they're too much of a

10 nuisance, you have other ways of getting rid of them,

11 getting rid of whatever it is that's predatory. So

12 why do you -- why -- I can't understand why falconers

13 have such a special status, and I'd like to have you

14 guys shed some light on why they're even being

15 considered.

16 MR. RILEY: Thank you. Thanks. That's an

17 appropriate question. If you're not familiar with

18 falconries, the specific answer to that is because

19 Congress told us they had a special provision in 1972

20 they added to the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act

21 that falconry -- that golden eagles can be used for

22 falconry and that the way that they can acquire them is

23 if an eagle would otherwise have been taken from the

24 wild for depredation purposes.

25 So that's in the law that Congress passed.



Page 12

1 What I can share, from my understanding of falconry, I

2 think we regulate it as a form of hunting, is the Fish

3 and Wildlife Service's relationship with it, using a

4 hawk and eagle, the falcon to take rabbits or to take

5 ducks.

6 It's -- it's another means of hunting. And

7 so our official legal connection to it is that way.

8 The -- those who practice falconry, I think they may

9 describe themselves as having testified to us about the

10 culture importance of that going back hundreds and

11 hundreds of years.

12 I don't think I'm misstating the way that

13 they approach it when they come to us and describe what

14 they do as something that has a universal history and

15 cultural importance going back hundreds of years. And

16 so they, at times, I think, would say they get

17 frustrated that we merely treat them as just, Hey, it's

18 a form of hunting.

19 But that is the way our regulations are set

20 up, both the purpose for acquiring falcons, or, in this

21 case, acquiring golden eagles, and how they're allowed

22 to see them is that they have to go through a pretty

23 involved certification process, demonstrating their

24 ability to keep and manage and maintain the birds that

25 are used for hunting purposes.



Page 13

1 And as long as they meet those

2 certifications, the law allows them to hold those

3 birds. Golden eagles have special restrictions that

4 are involved with the Eagle Protection Act, compared to

5 other birds that they acquire for that purpose.

6 I'm not a falconer. So I'm shedding the way

7 a nonfalconer has understood what they have told me.

8 MR. SHAY: Could you -- could you cite the

9 numbers? Because, in the handout, it talks about an

10 average of six golden eagles were taken annually prior

11 to 2009. How many -- six times what? How many years?

12 MR. RILEY: That went back less than

13 10 years. That number comes from the end of 2009, when

14 we were creating the regulations we were discussing

15 yesterday. We had to do a national environmental

16 assessment about what the impact on golden eagles might

17 be if we were to allow new forms of take.

18 And in doing that, we reviewed all the other

19 forms of take that had been existing for golden eagles.

20 So that went back in the range of 10 years. And of all

21 the things we looked at, one of them was falconry. And

22 that's where that number came from, was that

23 nationally, there were about six eagles removed from

24 the wild annually.

25 Going back farther than that, I don't know



Page 14

1 that it would have been dramatically different. The

2 last few years, there have been no eagles removed for

3 depredation permits; so, consequently, no eagles

4 provided to falconers, because we've been working on

5 how best to determine that a criteria for a depredation

6 permit is met. And that's in our discussion.

7 MR. ORTIZ: I have a question here on how

8 much of a restriction is applied to them, as well as it

9 applies to Native Americans. If we look at it, we are

10 entitled as much as they are.

11 Way back, if you're talking about a hundred

12 years ago, Native Americans were not really seen in

13 their eyes -- that was something that was -- were --

14 and still is -- of importance to us Native Americans.

15 And not only for the Native Americans, but

16 it's also -- and it's really sad to say that you -- we

17 have to explain ourselves for the reason and the uses

18 of that. And it is really sad that we should.

19 But if it's going take us to this point to do

20 that, it is one of most importance of all to Native

21 Americans, not only Native Americans, but through the

22 prayers that's been done as a whole nation, if you look

23 at it that way. It's for everybody that we use those

24 for.

25 So it's really sad that the Congress doesn't



Page 15

1 even visualize the issues of those sorts for Native

2 Americans. And it's now making it so hard for us to

3 obtain and not be able to carry on our culture. And

4 that's one of the saddest issues.

5 And then, again, going back, as we sit along

6 here as Native Americans, we should not being -- sit

7 here and explain ourselves to, really, open up any

8 culture stuff that we should. That respect should be

9 given to the Native Americans.

10 And I feel that, you know, the Congressional

11 delegation should visualize that. We respect them,

12 because they are the bodies that make the rules and

13 whatever for the whole nation. But then, in return,

14 that's all we ask for, as Native Americans, to respect

15 our culture, to respect us as human beings.

16 And there are needs that we have that, right

17 now, it is hard, that we have to jump through hurdles

18 and hoops just to obtain what is so special to us. And

19 that's one thing that, you know, how many of that

20 restrictions does the falconers have, as well as it

21 applies to us Native Americans, in obtaining this?

22 MR. RILEY: Thank you. Before we leave that,

23 we are trying to get everybody's comments. And I don't

24 know your name to tell the court reporter.

25 MR. ORTIZ: Okay. I'm sorry. Good morning,



Page 16

1 everybody. I just get so intense when you hear stuff

2 like this. So, I'm sorry. My name is Ricardo Ortiz,

3 and I represent the Pueblo of San Felipe and under --

4 my title is a (inaudible) specialist.

5 MS. WALSH: Clint, I have a question before

6 we move on. Does the law -- the actual statute

7 restrict the distribution of those depredation eagles

8 that are taken from the wild to the falconers, or is it

9 broader than that?

10 MR. RILEY: Perfect. And that was part of

11 what I wanted to clarify as well. Right now, Native

12 Americans are also recognized under the same law that,

13 we can authorize, if -- and there's -- that's its own

14 discussion, of course, is demonstration that it is

15 consistent with historical and cultural need, but we

16 can offer Native Americans to take eagles.

17 Falconers cannot take eagles for -- just

18 because they're falconers. The only way they can

19 acquire eagles is if we have decided there's an eagle

20 that needs to be removed from the wild because it's

21 depredating on livestock or wildlife.

22 And so falconers have a special recognition

23 by Congress, but it is a lower recognition than Native

24 Americans, because they -- they don't get an eagle just

25 because they're falconers. They can only get an eagle



Page 17

1 if that eagle is going to be removed from the wild

2 anyway.

3 Going to Noreen's point, the law doesn't

4 specify that, when an eagle is going to be removed

5 because it's been depredating on livestock or wildlife,

6 that it has to go to falconers. We have generally

7 behaved that way, because there is no other way for

8 falconers to otherwise request an eagle.

9 But the law doesn't require that that's where

10 the eagle would go. And so one of the -- one of the

11 potential proposals we might make is, when we have

12 determined that an eagle needs to be removed because

13 it's depredating on livestock or wildlife, to whom

14 should that eagle go? In practice, that eagle has gone

15 to falconers.

16 That's the only way falconers can ever get

17 it. We could clarify, through regulation, exactly how

18 we make the decision about who should receive that

19 bird. And that's one of the things we're considering.

20 MR. LASLEY: Good morning. Raymond Lasley,

21 Osage Nation. Regarding the -- the eagles that is

22 being removed from the wild because of depredation,

23 could we get provisions included in the regulation that

24 would -- once an eagle is removed from the wild, we

25 have a lot of Native American aviaries now.



Page 18

1 I would like to see that included in the

2 regulation, that, in lieu of a qualified or master

3 falconer, that the Native American aviary would be

4 included on that list and would take top priority

5 regarding a depredator or an eagle that is removed from

6 the wild because of depredation. Thank you.

7 MR. RILEY: Thank you. That's exactly the

8 kind of input we are curious about. I might ask one

9 follow-up, maybe specifically to you or for anyone

10 else.

11 Do you mean specifically to say that a Native

12 American aviary would receive it, potentially as a

13 higher priority than an individual Native American or

14 use of an eagle for religious purposes? So a live

15 eagle might go directly to an aviary, because an aviary

16 can use a live eagle? Is that what you are saying?

17 MR. LASLEY: Yes. That's -- that's exactly

18 what I was -- the direction we're going in, we're

19 seeing more and more Native American aviaries every

20 year.

21 And if we could get those eagles in those

22 aviaries, in some cases, like William, (inaudible) and

23 what they're doing with the Comanche, they're actually

24 breeding eagles there. So if you take an eagle out of

25 the wild, at least you could be using them for



Page 19

1 propagation purposes. Thank you.

2 MR. RILEY: Other comments on some of these

3 proposals?

4 MR. SHAY: Darrel Shay, again, from Sho-Ban.

5 The other question was kind of -- was tied into my

6 previous question on the falconers, was determining the

7 depredation, the -- it seems to me like, you know, the

8 cards are stacked against the eagle.

9 And no one -- what I know about eagles, you

10 know, they're generally -- they'll find something

11 that's dead, and then they'll -- you know, and then

12 they'll eat it, as far as livestock goes. And, you

13 know, and who's to say that -- we don't know what they

14 do.

15 Maybe they do kill them. Who determines

16 that? You know, and it just seems like -- it just

17 seems like that's unclear. You know? You've got --

18 somebody complained about the eagle, so it becomes a

19 depredation issue, and then it -- and then it falls

20 into that.

21 And I don't know. I -- I think they should

22 capture them and then figure out what to do with them

23 and release them back to the wild. They should never

24 go back to the -- to the falconers, just because, you

25 know, they can -- they're determined to be -- have been



Page 20

1 in depredation.

2 So -- and then, like the gentleman over here

3 said, if there's Native American aviaries, they should

4 go to them first before anything else, because, again,

5 I'm going to go back to the falconers.

6 Who are they, and how much money do they

7 have? What -- are they sport clubs? From what I

8 heard, they have -- they wield a lot of political

9 influence with congressmen. You just said that. You

10 know, Congress, you know, included them in the act.

11 You know, Congress has a hard time including

12 us in the act, you know, and I have to find that out.

13 And to be comfortable with this issue, is, how do they

14 get that political influence? Is it just sports clubs?

15 You know, do they have -- I'm pretty sure

16 it's probably only rich people. So if it is, then they

17 probably have lots of money.

18 MR. RILEY: Okay. Thank you. And I

19 appreciate -- some of the comments you made, I know you

20 shared yesterday morning. But I realize that was

21 before we were on the record and before we had a court

22 reporter, so I'd like to have those on the record.

23 I know you have concerns about who determines

24 this depredation. So thank you for sharing those.

25 What -- again, I'm not a falconer. Falconers do have



Page 21

1 their own associations. Steve mentioned -- and it's

2 worth clarifying, if we haven't.

3 They are licensed as individuals that have to

4 meet their own certifications and tests and the

5 capabilities of caring for eagles before they would be

6 qualified. And it's in the range of -- right now the

7 range of 30 or so certified master falconers across the

8 country.

9 As for what influence they have, I -- I

10 hesitate to speak for that. That's in the eye of the

11 beholder. And I doubt that any class or group believes

12 they have the influence they deserve. And that's --

13 they would probably say the same thing, and outsiders

14 may not agree.

15 MR. JUAN TYLER: Good morning. I'm Lee Juan

16 Tyler from the Sho-Ban tribes. I have some

17 information. I guess I don't know who's in charge.

18 You guys, huh?

19 We have information for people and et cetera.

20 Then, you guys could -- we have a Web site as well.

21 And my question is, I know I -- there's a lot of

22 different ways our -- and, you know, we talked about

23 yesterday and today as well.

24 And -- but just -- the eagle, who gets to own

25 one? I mean, like, if we found one, a wounded one, you



Page 22

1 know, an eagle that got wounded somehow, somebody left

2 it, or accidently.

3 You know, there's a lot of people out there

4 that don't care about the eagle. And when I was

5 working in Boise, Idaho, (inaudible) in this area where

6 our original homelands were, I had an

7 opportunity (inaudible.) There was a dam.

8 That was a beautiful place over there. And

9 the water level was so low, eagles came in and moved

10 and started tearing up the pool trout. And then,

11 (inaudible) oh, oh, man, we've got to kill those

12 eagles. They're killing all them -- you know, they're

13 taking out, you know, all the pool trout.

14 I heard them say that, when we were in a

15 meeting like this, coordination with others and other

16 agencies. And -- so we was watching out for them.

17 Burial grounds, burial sacred sites, and all that in

18 that area.

19 And so what we were -- we were removed from

20 there in 1870-71 in an unratified treaty during the

21 Civil War. And that was a -- but, anyway, that was a

22 lot of history there. But when I seen all those

23 eagles, man, they were on both sides of the river. The

24 river was also small, but it was real deep.

25 But it was, like, a creek, a little crick,



Page 23

1 and eagles are on both sides, and they're fishing. We

2 fish for salmon back in (inaudible, mumbling.) They

3 were, like, fast.

4 Oh, I wished we had a camera back then, 2004.

5 And then, every day, it seems, 30 to -- 20 to 30, both

6 sides. And, oh, it was awesome. So I had a great

7 blessing. I went down there for feathers, and what I

8 seen was, oh, a bald eagle came out, pulled out a

9 trout, like that.

10 And a golden eagle game out of the air, poof,

11 knocked it out of that bald eagle. Man, that was an

12 awesome sight. So the golden eagle's more powerful

13 than a bald eagle. That's how -- we have names for

14 them as well in our languages.

15 Bald eagle, he's more of a fisherman type.

16 But still, they mate for -- they mate for life, you

17 know, a bald eagle will. They're picky. Like the

18 women, they go choose somebody when they want to choose

19 them. That's how they are.

20 They're picky. (Inaudible, mumbling.)

21 They'll see if that bald eagle -- they'll drop it, and

22 that bald eagle will come down and catches it. And so

23 that's interested a little bit. See? It goes higher

24 and do it again.

25 And finally, he says, Hey, this is their --



Page 24

1 this is the man. This is the right choice. Soulmate.

2 So they -- that's how they are, eagles are. They're

3 awesome. Still, you know, I seen them, there are

4 stories about them being raised.

5 So that's how -- we talked about stuff like

6 that yesterday. But I think the tribes should be in

7 charge of a lot of the handling, and they should be

8 working in areas where you're at, and -- not take your

9 jobs right away, but we trained and worked those areas

10 as Native people throughout these areas.

11 And so to handle them -- and so we don't have

12 to be re-educating over and over again. And that seems

13 like that's happening too much. A real great person

14 like yourselves comes in, and they say, Oh, eagle

15 lovers, get them the hell out of there. (Inaudible.)

16 Because that's how it is. Whenever somebody

17 comes over that helps us, you know, non-Indians -- that

18 president Kennedy and his brother Robert came to our

19 reservation, they seen how impoverished we live, with

20 no running water and electricity and all this.

21 And I grew up like that. And I was five

22 years old. (Inaudible.) Next thing you know, we had

23 commodity homes. Oh, I see. Hey, let's build homes

24 for these people. So that's what happened.

25 And then, look, both of them, they got



Page 25

1 assassinated because they were helping a minority. So

2 that's what happens. And this is -- this is a crazy

3 country, violent. Americans are violent. And that's

4 how I see it.

5 But, you know, so I'm going off track. But I

6 think that the Native people should be trained to go

7 out and protect and do their own studies on handling

8 these things, and train our people starting out now,

9 the youth, so that we can educate them.

10 And we should be in key positions, where you

11 guys are sitting, somewhere along the future -- in the

12 near future. So we'd like to have those -- what do you

13 call them? Repositories? Like, our reservation.

14 (Inaudible, mumbling.)

15 So that might be fine for that as well. I

16 think it should be there -- this location -- location

17 is an area, right there is where the Oregon Trail went

18 through our country. They destroyed and tore up our

19 country -- and some other history.

20 But still, the eagle is a big issue. So I

21 think I forgot what I was going to say. Sorry about

22 that. But I was going to just say that, you know,

23 they're raised in the wild.

24 If I find one out there wounded or something,

25 and I take it home, I'm not going to tell nobody. If I



Page 26

1 don't, what's going to happen? Am I going to get in

2 trouble? I shouldn't be, right? I want to raise it.

3 It's my pet now, for my annual whatever. I'm going to

4 raise it. So what do you do then?

5 MS. WALSH: I'm going to let Clint answer

6 your second question. But I'm going to get a little

7 off track myself and just say, you've mentioned about

8 Native Americans being in positions within the Fish and

9 Wildlife Service or positions of handling eagles.

10 And so, we haven't talked about this, and we

11 probably don't have time today, but I want you to know

12 that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is always

13 actively recruiting Native Americans into our

14 positions.

15 And if that's something that you would want

16 to talk about with us, or your high school kids, your

17 tribal colleges, how we can establish a stronger

18 relationship to work to bring those people into

19 positions within the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, I

20 want to talk to you.

21 So you all -- or most of you have my card

22 from yesterday. And we won't have time to talk much

23 about that today, but I want to put the invitation out

24 there. Please call me so we can talk more about how we

25 can do better.



Page 27

1 Now, I'm going to give you the hard question.

2 MR. OBERHOLTZER: And I know we had a few

3 people show up after we started. Just to kind of let

4 everyone know, we have until 11:00, when Noreen has to

5 leave, and we still have a few topics we'd definitely

6 like to get comments from everyone on.

7 So we'll try and keep moving on this. As far

8 as what would happen, what I can tell you is the law.

9 I mean, Native Americans, right now, absent a permit,

10 or anyone else, for that matter, may not legally

11 collect an eagle. That includes a dead carcass or a

12 live one.

13 If a circumstance like that arises, where you

14 have a wounded eagle, and you have someone who has the

15 skills to be a rehabber in the tribe, I'd encourage you

16 to get in touch with the permit office and go through

17 the rehabilitation process to lawfully acquire that

18 eagle. If -- and I can also tell you some of our

19 statistics.

20 We keep stats on what entities we get eagles

21 from by state and number. We get the vast majority of

22 our eagles sent to the repository by our law

23 enforcement agency. The numbers that come in from

24 tribes, nationally, they're probably in the double

25 digits, out of 2,500-plus eagles that come in.



Page 28

1 So I just wanted to let you know that tribes

2 are not one of the main sources for eagles we get at

3 the repository. It's really law enforcement officers

4 throughout the country.

5 MR. FISHER: Conrad Fisher, Northern Cheyenne

6 Tribal Historic Preservation Officer. I was invited by

7 my boss, vice-president Winfield S. Russell, this

8 morning.

9 We do have a template for having -- carrying

10 eagle feathers on the Northern Cheyenne reservation.

11 My question is more in a legal sense. And I understand

12 the federal law and the intent that goes with -- with

13 that. We all have to be under -- under rules and regs.

14 We have to answer to somebody. Part of it is

15 a moral issue; others are ethical issues. There's

16 legal issues involved in this whole endeavor.

17 However, my question is, since the

18 introduction of the wolves into the Yellow -- greater

19 Yellowstone area, now they have been controlled by

20 federal law. And then, at one point, they were

21 decontrolled. They were left up to the states.

22 So it seems like, in those cases where

23 federal law has -- has -- in terms of not controlling

24 the wolf population anymore, how can that -- is that a

25 legislative decision? Because, I think, when we're



Page 29

1 talking about eagle feathers, it seems like there's no

2 hope for tribes to even -- you just mentioned federal

3 law is federal law.

4 Is there a possibility of some type of a tool

5 that can make the federal law flexible, in terms of

6 Indian tribes participating in the possession of eagle

7 feathers? I know you mentioned falconry and special

8 interest groups.

9 In the case of the wolves, you know, in ag

10 states, the farmers and the ranchers really have a lot

11 of -- a lot of control of that. So there is politics

12 involved in these issues, particularly if the

13 legislatures in that state are farmers and agricultural

14 people.

15 So how -- my question, maybe, is more of a

16 comment. How can we access or how can we make those

17 federal laws less stringent so that tribes have an

18 opportunity to have access to these feathers in one way

19 or the other?

20 Does that sound like a question or more of a

21 comment?

22 MR. RILEY: Okay. I think there are some

23 important things there that you're raising, certainly.

24 One, you probably are familiar with it, but in case

25 others aren't, the difference between the wolf being



Page 30

1 removed from the endangered species list and bald and

2 golden eagles is the Endangered Species Act didn't name

3 the specific species that would be under federal

4 management.

5 It developed the criteria for whether a

6 species is endangered or threatened. When we

7 determined that wolves are not endangered or

8 threatened, then we would -- the law doesn't give us

9 authority over them anymore ,once we've reached that

10 determination.

11 That's different from the Bald and Golden

12 Eagle Protection Act that Congress passed, which said,

13 regardless of the status of bald and golden eagles,

14 whether they're doing very well biologically, whether

15 they may be threatened with extinction or not, those

16 two species were considered by Congress to be

17 sufficiently important to the American public that

18 federal law would protect those species until that

19 federal law is changed by Congress.

20 How federal law protects the species, though,

21 I think, goes to the deeper part of your comment, that,

22 within that -- those protections, there may be ways for

23 us to meet the purpose of that law in that --

24 recognizes the special interest Native Americans have

25 with those species and do that more effectively,



Page 31

1 potentially engage with tribes in new ways.

2 We've mentioned the eagle aviaries that now

3 exist with some tribes is potentially an example of the

4 kind of thing that takes time, takes work to meet the

5 federal certifications to do that but is something

6 that's been developed that allows tribes to have a

7 special authority and a special relationship with the

8 eagles in the aviaries that others do not, to pilot

9 non-eagle repositories that have been developed that

10 under (inaudible) treaty, a similar story could be

11 told.

12 And so until Congress were to change the law,

13 bald and golden eagles will be under federal

14 jurisdiction, because Congress believes they are that

15 important to the American public.

16 What it means and how we behave to meet the

17 requirement that they are protected by the federal law,

18 there may be flexibility in these sorts of

19 conversations that are a chance to explore those.

20 Is that responding to your question? Steve

21 may have more.

22 MR. OBERHOLTZER: We have three main, I

23 guess, areas where we feel that we give members of

24 federally-recognized tribes great access to the

25 feathers they need. The first one would be the



Page 32

1 National Eagle Repository, where we fill roughly 4,500

2 orders a year coming from Native Americans, free of

3 charge, of course.

4 The second would be, we and DOJ have formed a

5 policy allowing Native Americans to collect naturally

6 molting or fallen feathers, including the eagle

7 feathers that they find. And the third would be, we

8 have very -- in my opinion, very clear and flexible

9 policy that allows Native Americans to possess, use,

10 carry, and gift with other Native Americans lawfully

11 acquired feathers.

12 So where the line is drawn by the DOJ and the

13 Department of the Interior is collection of carcasses.

14 And there's two reasons -- or two main reasons for

15 that. The first is our law enforcement agents have to

16 be able to preserve that carcass as evidence to figure

17 out what's killing eagles, whether it's electrocution

18 or shooting or poison or whatever it is, so we can

19 address those threats.

20 So we need to be able to get our hands on

21 those carcasses to address the threats to eagles. And

22 the second would be more of a public safety or health

23 issue. We have a big problem, especially in the

24 western U.S., with eagles getting poisoned.

25 And some of the poisons that are used to



Page 33

1 intentionally try and kill wolves or coyotes or other

2 predators, they also kill eagles. And if you don't

3 know how to handle them, you can get into a lot of

4 trouble. And, in fact, some of the poisons that are

5 used are pretty fatal to humans too.

6 So there's health reasons. There's

7 investigative reasons. And, in my mind, that was

8 probably why the line was drawn at can't collect

9 carcasses. But up to carcasses, we have policy

10 allowing that flexibility so you can collect.

11 MR. FISHER: I appreciate your comment on

12 that. I probably would disagree with your -- with your

13 assessment. You know, as natives, I don't think we

14 wanted -- if they had -- if it had been an accidental

15 electrocution, it wasn't the eagle's fault.

16 You know, it was transmission lines that was

17 probably in the name of energy or oil development or

18 some other -- some other source, or if it was one of

19 those huge windmills, you know, that seems to be one of

20 the causes for deaths of birds. Nevertheless, I think

21 your comment is well taken.

22 However, I think, as Native Americans, when

23 we're talking about this -- such as this, the eagle

24 feathers, it seems like there's always some other

25 activity in the -- in the Dakotas, the Balkan oil



Page 34

1 fields.

2 They're just -- I mean, it's -- it's, you

3 know, energy development is omnipresent. And it's

4 spreading throughout the -- there's adverse effects to

5 cultural sites. And so it seems like our First

6 Amendment rights to be able to pray are being

7 outweighed by the right to drill for energy resources.

8 And there's something wrong with that

9 picture. That's getting beside the point. I don't

10 want to dwell. But one last question about the

11 legality of this.

12 In the treaties for the treaty tribes, if, in

13 fact, it says that you will be able to hunt and fish

14 and do all these things, should that not be part of

15 their ceremonial right, to be able to accept these

16 types of ceremonial birds? I mean, it is a treaty,

17 after all.

18 MR. OBERHOLTZER: Thank you. And I won't be

19 able to give you a specific comment on the treaty with

20 your particular tribe, but I can give you a general

21 comment, absolutely.

22 Treaty rights are -- that is the contract

23 between U.S. Government and your particular tribe.

24 With the case of eagles and the Bald and Golden Eagle

25 Protection Act, there are some case laws that more



Page 35

1 accurately guide us in whether or not the Bald and

2 Golden Eagle Protection Act applies on tribal lands or

3 doesn't.

4 One of the cases that comes to mind is

5 U.S. versus Dion that, I think, guides us that it does

6 apply on tribal lands. That is why we have the

7 structure for application for an Indian religious-take

8 permit and some of the other permitting processes we

9 have, is that Congress did tell us, and the U.S.

10 Supreme Court told us, that it does apply and that we

11 need to figure out ways to accommodate religious

12 freedoms on tribal lands too, but that eagles are

13 protected, regardless of where they're found.

14 MR. FISHER: Thank you.

15 MR. MARTEL: Wes Martel, Eastern Shoshone.

16 Back home, we've got some ceremonies that require the

17 use of feathers from a live eagle. How is that

18 handled?

19 MR. RILEY: How is it handled, in terms of

20 how you can acquire the feathers?

21 MR. MARTEL: Yeah.

22 MR. RILEY: Well, eagle aviaries is one

23 source now. The -- some of the discussions we had

24 about naturally molting feathers, as in the discussion

25 that Steve had yesterday about the ability, separate



Page 36

1 from carcasses of eagles, that if those are found,

2 those can be acquired and held and exchanged among --

3 MR. MARTEL: (Inaudible.)

4 MR. RILEY: Not the carcasses, no. The

5 feathers. If you're asking about the feathers, or if

6 you're asking about --

7 MR. MARTEL: I'm talking a live eagle, not

8 from a carcass.

9 MR. RILEY: Right. So that's -- okay.

10 MS. WALSH: So Clint was saying that one way

11 that you could obtain a feather from a live eagle is if

12 you find one that has -- (inaudible.)

13 THE REPORTER: I can't hear you.

14 MS. WALSH: Clint was saying that if -- that

15 one way that you could obtain a feather from a live

16 eagle is if you find one that has molted.

17 MR. MARTEL: You're completely missing my

18 point. It's got to be taken from a live eagle.

19 MS. WALSH: You have to physically take it?

20 MR. RILEY: Yeah. An aviary would be the

21 best source, currently. Oh.

22 (Conferring.)

23 MR. MARTEL: So there's a catch and release?

24 MR. OBERHOLTZER: Well, "take" is --

25 MR. RILEY: Take -- yeah. Catching an eagle



Page 37

1 would be taking, even if you're not killing it.

2 MR. OBERHOLTZER: And, theoretically, that

3 process, for even a religious-take permit, could

4 include not just the lethal take, but it could include

5 an eagle, taking a feather, or -- so -- and then

6 releasing that bird too.

7 So that might be one way to accommodate what

8 you're trying to accomplish. Once again, it is a

9 permitting process.

10 MR. MARTEL: I need a little plastic card,

11 though, right?

12 MR. OBERHOLTZER: You'd need a permit for

13 that one.

14 MR. RILEY: I'm sensing we're not asking or

15 providing more discussion on the regulations as they

16 relate to depredation right now. If that's the case, I

17 was going to at least move on to one of the other

18 potential regulatory changes that may be under

19 consideration. Is everyone comfortable with that?

20 (Pause in the proceedings.)

21 Well, rather than waiting for something

22 that's in front of you, my next sheet that everyone

23 should have will be titled "golden eagle

24 rehabilitation."

25 While she's looking for that slide,



Page 38

1 currently, under the regulations as they're written

2 right now, someone who has a -- is certified, has a

3 license to be a rehabilitator and would have a golden

4 eagle or a bald eagle that -- you know, it would be a

5 golden eagle, in this case -- that is rehabilitated and

6 could be released, current law would allow them -- does

7 not require them to -- but would allow them to transfer

8 that golden eagle to a falconer.

9 As far as we know, that has never occurred

10 since this provision was created, but the current

11 regulations would allow that. That was a change

12 relatively recently that wasn't intended to be specific

13 to golden eagles.

14 It was intended to address all raptors and

15 all raptor rehabilitators with the intention of being

16 that, if a falconer might otherwise be taking any other

17 raptor or -- raptor -- hawk, falcon for falconry

18 purposes, if they could acquire that bird from a

19 rehabilitator instead of taking it from the wild,

20 that's one less bird taken from the wild.

21 So, less than 10 years ago, those regulations

22 were changed to allow rehabilitators to transfer a

23 releasable bird that's healthy enough to go back to the

24 wild, instead of releasing it to the wild, they could

25 transfer it to a falconer.



Page 39

1 When we wrote that, we weren't specific about

2 any species, so it includes golden eagles. One thing

3 under consideration, potentially, would be for us to go

4 back in that regulation and specify that rehabilitators

5 could transfer other species of raptors to falconers,

6 but they could not transfer a golden eagle to

7 falconers.

8 They would have to release the golden eagle

9 to the wild if it were healthy enough to be released.

10 That's the simple proposal being kicked around

11 internally as it would relate to eagles.

12 Some of the thought process behind that would

13 be that, compared to other -- other species of raptors

14 that falconry uses, since falconers can't simply take a

15 golden eagle from the wild anyway, as we were

16 discussing, they can only take one if it was otherwise

17 going to be taken for depredation reasons, that we're

18 not accomplishing the intended purpose with golden

19 eagles by, instead of them taking a golden eagle from

20 the wild, they're taking one from a rehabilitator.

21 As I said, I don't think that's ever been

22 done anyway. What I have been told is that most

23 falconers are not excited about getting a bird from

24 the -- a rehabilitator. They would rather have one

25 that's -- that they found that is still demonstrating



Page 40

1 their capability of hunting.

2 That's just what I've been told. That's the

3 summary of the relatively simple issue here, and we

4 would be curious if we were to propose that change.

5 MR. SHAY: Darrel Shay from the Sho-Ban.

6 Again, I would like to know, who is a licensed raptor

7 rehabilitator? And who are they licensed by, either a

8 state, federal, or who? God, or who?

9 The reason for my question is, they seem to

10 wield a lot of influence in this issue.

11 MR. RILEY: I might ask -- Jannell Suazo

12 is -- and we haven't introduced her yesterday or today.

13 I apologize. She spoke once yesterday. She is chief

14 of our permitting office in our Denver Regional Office.

15 And it's her office that would generally be

16 in charge of licenses and certifications for many of

17 the things we're talking about, in terms of receiving

18 the applications and reviewing them.

19 Did you hear that question, Jannell? The

20 question was, for rehabilitators, the process for

21 someone to be a licensed rehabilitator, what -- who

22 does that licensing and what those requirements are.

23 MS. SUAZO: That is the respective regional

24 office of this region. It would come to my office.

25 And there is an application form for that as well. And



Page 41

1 the process is -- the big part of that process is

2 facilities, making sure that there's adequate

3 facilities for the type of species that individuals

4 want to rehab.

5 As an example, waterbirds needing the right

6 facilities, as far as water; raptors needing the right

7 size of cages too. So the short answer is, apply to

8 your permit office in your region, and, you know, give

9 them a call, and they can help walk people through that

10 process.

11 But it is an application process as well.

12 Does that answer the question that you had?

13 MR. SHAY: I was just trying to find out who

14 licenses people.

15 MS. SUAZO: It is Fish and Wildlife Services.

16 It is the permit offices, and a lot of the states do

17 require state falconry permit as well, which would be

18 applied through state game and fish.

19 MR. SHAY: So, like, the university?

20 (Inaudible.)

21 MS. SUAZO: The comment was, Is it a

22 university office? Are you talking about Fish and

23 Wildlife Service?

24 MR. SHAY: No, a rehabilitator. (Inaudible.)

25 MS. SUAZO: They -- they do have to have



Page 42

1 background knowledge and experience in handling birds,

2 caring for birds. They have to have a licensed vet.

3 And a lot of them have volunteers. They have staff

4 that help with the facilities, with the birds' triage.

5 That better answer your question?

6 MR. SHAY: Pretty much.

7 MS. SUAZO: Okay.

8 MR. JUAN TYLER: We'd like to have Indians

9 and hire some tribes to work as falconers as well.

10 MR. RILEY: And to be clear, rehabilitators

11 aren't falconers. Rehabilitators may work with

12 falconers at times, but it's a separate process. But

13 rehabilitators do require a permit license from the

14 federal government through the Fish and Wildlife

15 Service.

16 At times, states may have additional

17 requirements. Generally, rehabilitators are people

18 doing it in their volunteer time, because they want to

19 have birds that, when they're struck by the road, they

20 think they can get them healthy and get them released

21 again. But they can't do that unless they get

22 permission from us, because you can't hold a migratory

23 bird unless you have permission.

24 And so it's a process for getting that

25 permission as a rehabilitator. Is that -- I'm not sure



Page 43

1 we're fully understanding your question.

2 MR. SHAY: I was just trying to find out who

3 they were.

4 MR. RILEY: Okay. Are there other comments?

5 MS. SUAZO: The other thing I was going to

6 add is, it can be any individual that is qualified,

7 with training, that has the appropriate facilities. A

8 lot of nonprofit entities. So reservations and

9 individuals on reservations, Native Americans, can

10 qualify as easy as anybody else, as far as answering

11 the who.

12 It's anybody who has the experience, who has

13 the facilities, the knowledge, the background, and has

14 the interest and the desire to do this. If there's any

15 interest at all, contact our office.

16 MR. GUTIERREZ: I'm Jesse Gutierrez. I

17 guess, just a comment, you know, just for the record,

18 you know. I guess, to me, this is more like a

19 listening session, just for the record, because

20 government's a government. And consultation, kind of,

21 should be with our governor and our tribal counsel and

22 presenting and talking with them.

23 But, you know, just a question I have is on

24 the -- where it says "distribution" -- "unsuitable for

25 distribution," and you'll give the parts for



Page 44

1 researchers and for science.

2 You know, who's going to be the person to

3 consider the part of the eagle unsuitable? Because,

4 you know, we use a lot -- almost everything from the

5 eagle. And then you're saying "unsuitable for

6 distribution" to Native Americans, you know, how do you

7 know it's unsuitable?

8 That's just a question I have.

9 MR. RILEY: Thank you. And, boy, that's the

10 danger of me deciding I could go ahead and summarize

11 this issue before we had the slide up there.

12 I forgot there was a total second half of one

13 of the things that we talked about within the Fish and

14 Wildlife Service, separate from whether a releasable

15 eagle could be transferred to a falconer, and that is

16 whether or not the eagle parts could be given to

17 research.

18 That hasn't been determined. I think what we

19 would take from your comment is to say we would need to

20 know through that -- think through that issue before we

21 would move forward on that proposal to know exactly how

22 we would make that determination. It hasn't been

23 specified to this point.

24 MR. JUAN TYLER: That's if they're

25 contaminated by diseases or poisoned by somebody.



Page 45

1 (Inaudible) -- to be distributed to Native American

2 tribes, then, so you guys do a thorough investigation,

3 a forensic study, and analyze that?

4 And then, after you find that, say, Hey, we

5 know who did it. Do they get a slap on the wrist, or

6 are they going to be held accountable and fined and all

7 that? Like the sheep ranchers that have those little

8 baby lambs, and they blame it on eagles, when actually

9 they died of stillbirth or something.

10 After birth, they're out there, and the

11 little lamb was dead because something happened to that

12 lamb, or maybe that lamb is in an unknown situation,

13 and then the eagle comes along and starts feeding, and

14 then he gets the blame, or she gets the blame, then --

15 and then, an innocent person, eagle, is then taken.

16 And by these people that don't have -- you

17 know, just jump to conclusions real quick, judge you

18 right off the bat. It happens on Law and Order. Do

19 you watch that all the time? Yeah.

20 But who's going to research these things and

21 make sure that they are unsuitable? How are you going

22 to determine that? An innocent person might be able to

23 (inaudible) gifts, find a way of the Indian way of

24 practice to take away that disease, that poison.

25 There's a lot. You can't just judge them.



Page 46

1 These falconers seem like they have more power. You

2 know, under our treaty tribes, I think we need to

3 establish our own as Native people here in this room to

4 establish a board across the nation, all the Indian

5 tribes, and then get something similar, and call it

6 something else, beside these things, falconry and all

7 that.

8 Call it something, and then we'll have

9 control. That has to happen within -- ASAP, within

10 five years, less. We need some kind of plan.

11 So we had a resolution from our tribes that,

12 whenever there's an eagle -- there was seven eagles

13 found dead on our reservation a year ago, because they

14 were poisoned by -- what was that called, Darrel? Some

15 kind of man. He called yesterday -- he named it

16 yesterday.

17 What happened to those eagles? Where did

18 they go? He says, Don't touch them. It's going to

19 contaminate -- it's going to spread to your skin, and

20 you're going to catch a disease. It could affect you

21 humans and kill you. It's like West Nile Virus.

22 But -- so what happened to those seven eagles

23 that were found up there on our reservation? And there

24 were other -- other eagles found that were taken. They

25 should be returned back. We've got -- we've got a



Page 47

1 resolution that says whenever an eagle is found on our

2 land, Indian land, reservation, those eagles go and

3 come back to us.

4 If they're suitable to, they come back to us.

5 Where did they go? Eagle parts go elsewhere. Next

6 thing you know, they got one from a different part of

7 the country, different parts of the Indian lands, or in

8 the United States, goes to repositories, and somebody

9 finally gets one of them.

10 (Inaudible) -- you've got one from this

11 state, this area, this area, here's your feathers, and

12 you know, all that time. Is that really real? You

13 know, they're probably at the Denver March Powwow

14 dancing. They're probably putting them on little kids.

15 You know, they've got fake feathers nowadays

16 too. Sorry to change the subject.

17 MR. FISHER: Again, this is -- has to do with

18 the policy and procedures and the legality. I'm just

19 reading some of the material that was handed out.

20 So falconers seem to have a very powerful

21 influence in this whole -- or this whole possession of

22 eagles, whether for recreation or others, just looking

23 at the management of depredation -- depredating eagles

24 and then the golden eagle rehab.

25 My question is, has the Fish, Wildlife, and



Page 48

1 Parks consulted with the tribes on the current or

2 existing policies, 50-CFR-22.23, on the direct or

3 indirect effects of the depredation of eagles on

4 livestock or other animals? Because we're really

5 focused, again, on agriculture here.

6 It seems like, if you have a federal law that

7 protects eagles, and all of a sudden they're preying on

8 sheep, cows, whatever ag folks raise, then the eagle

9 becomes a liability. Then they're expendable,

10 according to whoever made these policies.

11 What about the rights of Native Americans?

12 Shouldn't there have been consultation with Native

13 Americans because of their affiliation with this very

14 special animal, rather than all of a sudden Fish,

15 Wildlife, and Parks considering these proposed -- these

16 proposals for depredation permits?

17 There's something, again, wrong with that

18 picture. And I'm looking at this hindsight, 20/20.

19 However, I guess, being new -- and I have to apologize,

20 because these may be some questions that have been

21 asked already.

22 But as far as policymaking is concerned, can

23 you give me a clear picture of why that is the case?

24 Why do agriculturalists and falconers have such an

25 influence on the policies of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks,



Page 49

1 rather than tribes? And have they been consulted on

2 these issues previously? And shouldn't that be the

3 appropriate way to address this?

4 MR. RILEY: So Congress, when they -- when

5 Congress passed the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection

6 Act, and they said, You can't harm eagles, they put in

7 some exceptions.

8 They said Native Americans have reason to

9 take eagles and can receive a permit. They said that

10 if eagles are depredating on livestock, they can be

11 removed, or for safety emergencies, you can -- you can

12 take an eagle. They said if an eagle is being removed

13 because of depredation, falconers can have it.

14 So those broad statements were made by

15 Congress in the law. The regulations are attempts to

16 figure out how to make those laws work. I -- this

17 sounds like an unfair out, but I don't know what

18 consultation occurred or didn't occur when the

19 regulations were established as they exist right now.

20 I don't know how well we've done with

21 consultation in the past. What we're wanting to do

22 right now is, because there may be an opportunity for

23 us to change those regulations, we're wanting to make

24 sure we're as transparent as possible about some of the

25 kinds of things we may be considering in trying to



Page 50

1 change them.

2 But this is an opportunity for any part of

3 those regulations, as they're written now, as our

4 attempt to implement the Congressional law. The --

5 we're open to whatever other comments or suggestions

6 you would have about that.

7 The side boards that Fish and Wildlife

8 Service operates within Congress did say, among the

9 legal exceptions to the prohibition on take of eagles

10 includes, for example, if they're impacting livestock

11 or wildlife and can be removed for depredation

12 purposes.

13 MR. FISHER: So are those regs statutory? Is

14 that regulation statutory?

15 MR. RILEY: No. The regulations are not

16 statutory. The regulations are created through public

17 comment and an adoption process as a means of

18 explaining and implementing the statutes.

19 MR. FISHER: So there's no teeth? There's no

20 teeth to it?

21 MR. RILEY: No, they are the teeth people.

22 People -- they have either criminal or civil

23 implications, depending on the regulations. They have

24 the teeth of federal law. They have the teeth of

25 federal law by Congress. But they're not by Congress.



Page 51

1 They're (inaudible.)

2 MR. FISHER: And therein lies the problem.

3 Thank you.

4 MS. WALSH: Clint, I wanted to ask you a

5 question, again. I always like to understand what's in

6 the statute, what's in the regulations that implement

7 the statute. And then, what is agency policy? Because

8 that tells me how difficult or how easy it is to make a

9 change.

10 It's a lot harder to change a federal statute

11 than it is to change a policy. So I think I heard you

12 say earlier that the statute, Bald and Golden Eagle

13 Protection Act, allows for eagles that are depredating

14 to be taken from the wild and given to falconers but

15 not only to falconers.

16 The law does not specify that they can only

17 go to falconers. Is that accurate?

18 MR. RILEY: Yes. It's because it's stated in

19 two different places. The law says eagles can be taken

20 for depredation purposes. It doesn't say where the

21 eagles go.

22 It says eagles can be held by falconers, but

23 the only place they can get them is if it was a

24 depredating eagle. So the -- it doesn't say that they

25 couldn't have gone anyplace else.



Page 52

1 MS. WALSH: And do the implementing

2 regulations restrict that distribution to falconers?

3 MR. RILEY: They don't. The current

4 regulations are pretty silent on that.

5 MS. WALSH: So what I'm hearing around the

6 table is a great interest in eagles that are taken from

7 the wild not only going to falconers.

8 And what I'm hearing from my technical expert

9 is that that doesn't require a change in the statute or

10 the regulations, but it might require change in our

11 internal policies and practices. So that's a message I

12 will take back, that we want to explore that.

13 Another important point, I think, to share

14 with you is that falconers are pretty active and pretty

15 sophisticated in working with Congress. And so we will

16 need your help in making your voice known about changes

17 that you would like us to make as we move forward

18 exploring that with you.

19 MR. FISHER: It's got to be statutory.

20 MR. MARTEL: I must be missing something

21 here. Why do -- what's the importance of falconers

22 having eagles?

23 MR. RILEY: Congress said that they could

24 have eagles.

25 MR. MARTEL: Why?



Page 53

1 MR. RILEY: You know, if you could explain

2 everything Congress did, we wouldn't have had a

3 furlough last fall.

4 MR. MARTEL: Why do falconers want eagles?

5 I'm not worried about Congress. Why would falconers

6 want eagles?

7 MR. RILEY: I'm going to cheat. Is this

8 okay, Kelly? We have someone in the room who is a

9 falconer.

10 And rather than me -- this is -- please, just

11 as no one of you would say you're speaking for every

12 other tribe, and I can't speak for every other Fish and

13 Wildlife employee in my personal beliefs, Kelly can't

14 speak for all falconers.

15 But clearly, there's enough curiosity about

16 falconry and why people are interested in falconry and

17 why golden eagles would be attractive. I'm going to

18 ask an actual falconer to speak to that.

19 MR. HOGAN: All right. Well, let me clarify.

20 I'm actually a licensed eagle falconer as well.

21 MR. JUAN TYLER: What's his name again?

22 MR. HOGAN: Kelly Hogan. Sorry. One thing

23 Clint said earlier which needs -- I'm sorry -- which

24 needs to be clarified, he was talking about hundreds of

25 years.



Page 54

1 Falconry is about 3,000 years old. One thing

2 you have to remember about golden eagles is they're

3 probably the most widespread eagle species out there.

4 Excuse me a second.

5 MR. JUAN TYLER: Well, there's some in

6 Siberia, huge ones.

7 MR. HOGAN: Exactly. Eagles have been hunted

8 in Mongolia for a thousand years before Christ. And

9 the connection falconers have with eagles comes from

10 that long association with eagles.

11 It's not a sport; it's a way of life. I

12 won't call it a religion. I'll call it a connection,

13 and that's the important part for falconers.

14 MR. MARTEL: I still don't get it. If you're

15 falconers, why do you need eagles? I don't get it.

16 MR. HOGAN: Well, we use a lot of birds in

17 falconry, and very few eagles are actually flown in

18 falconry. They've been trapped in two states, South

19 Dakota and Wyoming.

20 MR. MARTEL: What do you do with them?

21 MR. HOGAN: Hunt.

22 MR. MARTEL: You hunt them?

23 MR. HOGAN: We don't kill the eagles. No.

24 It's only a hunting sport. And, typically, what

25 happens in classical falconry is, you'll catch the bird



Page 55

1 in the fall and release it in the spring, because birds

2 are very expensive to feed, and that's one thing that

3 aviary owners should understand.

4 Not all eagles that you capture you can just

5 throw in a cage and breed. It's going to take you five

6 to six years to get them old enough to breed, and

7 they've got to be fed that whole time. Typically,

8 falconers will release them, under classic falconry.

9 MR. MARTEL: So you take these eagles so your

10 falcons hunt them?

11 MR. HOGAN: The eagles hunt, like, rabbits.

12 In Europe, they're hunting, like, Sitka deer. They

13 even use them to hunt wolves. It's a pretty incredible

14 sport. It's a connection. You know, like a lot of

15 people have connections with eagles, falconers have

16 that same connection.

17 MR. MARTEL: I was just wondering, what in

18 the hell?

19 MR. RILEY: I just realized, maybe there was

20 a fundamental disconnect. And when we said falconers

21 can take eagles, they're not taking eagles to kill

22 them.

23 What they're doing is taking an eagle and

24 removing an eagle from the wild. It's called taken

25 from the wild. But what they're doing with the eagle



Page 56

1 is managing it, feeding it, caring for it so that they

2 can take the eagle out, and the eagle will hunt for

3 rabbits or hunt for other species as a means for the

4 falconer to hunt for rabbits.

5 They -- the eagle, as a great hunter that it

6 is, can hunt for things that other raptor species can't

7 hunt for as effectively.

8 MR. OBERHOLTZER: I'll let you talk here in

9 just a second, Kelly. And I think the gentleman here

10 had a great point about this becoming a mixture of

11 discussion and consultation, and we really want to

12 solicit comments from tribes.

13 So if anyone is giving a comment on behalf of

14 their tribe, please, we'd like to get your input into

15 whatever the topic is we're talking about. Make sure

16 it's clear for us and the court reporter that you are

17 giving that comment on behalf of the tribe.

18 MR. ORTIZ: I have one issue here on the

19 comment part. I guess it's more or less, you know,

20 representing one tribe, we need to really be clarified

21 and understand all the issues that's being talked

22 about.

23 This is going to carry back on to that

24 administration, as well as the council, for them to

25 then make that, you know, decision on what needs to be



Page 57

1 brought to you, again, as -- well, as the Congressional

2 delegations.

3 The other question I have is, has there been

4 any studies done on the population of both golden

5 eagles and bald eagles within the United States?

6 MR. RILEY: Sorry. I was waiting for the

7 microphone to be turned off so we wouldn't have the

8 feedback. Yes. Thank you. We want to have this

9 conversation to be as effective as possible.

10 And I apologize that it took until this point

11 in the conversation to realize some of you may not be

12 familiar with falconry and thought it meant that you

13 were hunting that eagle itself or killing the eagle.

14 It's the opposite.

15 As far as studies of population of eagles,

16 there are surveys done of various shapes, forms. We're

17 trying to accelerate part of that. One of the

18 discussions yesterday that we talked about is lack of

19 data as we make our decisions to make sure we are

20 familiar with how many eagles there are, where they

21 are, local differences, certainly.

22 As was noted, we are going to run out of

23 time. We have other things that we would love to know

24 your feedback on. And the feedback on this one has

25 certainly been instructive.



Page 58

1 Are there other comments specific on the

2 regulations as they relate to rehabilitators and what

3 rehabilitators can do with the eagles and the -- okay.

4 MR. LUJAN: Good morning. My name is Albino

5 Lujan, from Taos Pueblo, New Mexico. And I think

6 Noreen is going back -- take this back to Congress.

7 Yesterday and today, I hear about Congress

8 making laws to protect the eagles and all that and how

9 to obtain feathers to us natives. And yet they give

10 out permits to poison the eagles and tell them how to

11 catch the eagles for protecting their livestock.

12 So it seems I can't quite understand the

13 picture here. The Congress passed laws to protect the

14 eagles, and yet they give out permits for poison. And

15 that's killing the eagles. I don't understand that.

16 So take that back with you. Thank you.

17 MR. RILEY: Okay. Thank you. As a

18 comment -- as a comment from your tribe, the

19 previous -- one of the previous proposals we had would

20 be that permits would not be allowed for poisoning

21 eagles or for otherwise lethally taking eagles.

22 And so that's one of the things you would

23 support, is changing it so that -- we haven't issued

24 any in recent past to allow anyone to poison an eagle

25 if it was depredating. But you're supporting that



Page 59

1 change, sounds like.

2 MR. LASLEY: Thank you. Raymond Lasley,

3 Osage Nation. You know, it hasn't been that long that

4 tribes have been at the table for consultation.

5 It used to be -- and some of you remember --

6 that any consultation that we used to have, it would be

7 a phone call. And that would be satisfying the federal

8 requirement for that consultation with tribes.

9 It hasn't been that long ago, just the past

10 few years. Now, the tribes are really starting to

11 assert their right to that meaningful consultation.

12 When I say meaningful, that is on a government-to-

13 government relation that we have, either through treaty

14 or by the -- our inherent sovereignty.

15 So, I mean, we -- we have been a long time

16 away from the table. Now we are at the table. Now is

17 our time to make our voices heard regarding these

18 critical issues on the -- not only eagles, but it goes

19 across the board with everything.

20 It's just fortunate that we have some good

21 listeners with Fish and Wildlife that are here today.

22 We're still woefully underfunded with the grants that

23 we have, the Fish and Wildlife grants. I mean,

24 they're -- we are the original stewards of this

25 country, of the wildlife, of all wildlife here.



Page 60

1 It was the Native people that were the

2 original stewards. And we have not been given that --

3 that note, or we have not been recognized as the

4 stewards, the original stewards. Now we're there. Now

5 we're saying, We want to be a part of this.

6 We want to be a part of any change in

7 regulation regarding eagles or any other wildlife. We

8 want more aviaries. We want more grants available for

9 the development of our natural resources departments.

10 We need these things in order to make it happen.

11 And that's kind of my complaint, is that, you

12 know, the -- there's always a very limited amount of

13 federal dollars that are out there for tribes, and we

14 have to compete against one another. These are all

15 competitive grants that we have to do.

16 And we have submitted our grants for an

17 aviary, and we have been -- we haven't been awarded

18 any, and other tribes have. And I'm not going get into

19 any of that.

20 But what I'm saying is that Fish and

21 Wildlife, listen to what we're saying, provide some

22 more funding for tribes to become rehabilitators, for

23 tribes to develop our aviaries, to provide the tribes

24 an opportunity to have repositories.

25 Now, they're doing that in Oklahoma now. We



Page 61

1 have the aviaries that are there. They're providing

2 eagle feathers for their tribal members and non-tribal

3 members, as long as they're Native American, mind you.

4 And I myself have been given an eagle feather from one

5 of the tribal aviaries in Oklahoma, and it was out of

6 respect.

7 I was the -- an elder there, and so I don't

8 need to go into that. But things are changing, and

9 we're seeing change, and it's because we have decided

10 to take the -- be proactive with our approach with this

11 and to say, It's time.

12 Fish and Wildlife, Department of Interior,

13 start paying attention to the Native Americans and our

14 struggle to keep what we have and to be stewards of

15 fish and wildlife. Thank you.

16 MR. JUAN TYLER: (Inaudible.) So please pay

17 attention. No, I'm joking. But, anyway, you know,

18 this is pretty serious, this falconry stuff. They came

19 to our tribe a week ago -- or how many days ago,

20 Darrel? Monday.

21 It was, like, a surprise attack. What the

22 hell? You know, no consultation. So they should be

23 null and void, because there was no consultation going

24 on, as you can see in this room. That's the -- what

25 happens a lot of times.



Page 62

1 As a treaty tribe, our treaties are way

2 before the states existed. And all of a sudden, we

3 find out about a rule. We had to learn about it. They

4 were attacking our treaty lands and our unoccupied

5 lands, these federal lands where we hunt, fish, and

6 gather, et cetera.

7 That's our right for all this land and

8 everything, so you could have that for a permanent

9 home. And you have to be re-educated, everybody. And

10 then, there was the Federal Lands Facilitation of

11 Transaction Act -- Transfer Act. And that was a real

12 bad one. We didn't even know about it.

13 We heard that everybody was -- you know, BLM,

14 Forest Service was selling our lands. And then, all of

15 a sudden, even the state was getting 10 percent. We

16 had to find out about it. And what the heck? They're

17 selling our treaty lands without consulting us.

18 And so this is another surprise. And then

19 the hydro-fracking. That wasn't even -- nobody was

20 consulted. Next thing you know, it's destroyed the

21 ground water. They're allowed to be exempt from

22 polluting the Clean Water Act.

23 All these things are -- but Congress said,

24 Oh, they're okay, even though there's these laws. It's

25 like the gentleman said over here, you protect them,



Page 63

1 and now you're giving permits to kill them. Same

2 thing.

3 You got all these laws and acts -- Clean

4 Water Acts that was implemented to protect -- so our

5 falconers, you know, can -- they got bottled water,

6 because -- no offense to that back there. But that's

7 where we're at now. That elder said that yesterday.

8 So this is life. Our future is at stake.

9 How are we going to do this? You know, we're here, and

10 the last of, maybe, our generation. And as our

11 language is still. I grew up with no English. English

12 is my second language as well.

13 So now, my little daughter, she's learning --

14 you know, she's learning words, but she's going to be

15 growing up and saying, What the heck? What did these

16 guys do, you know?

17 1969, Neil Armstrong went to the moon and had

18 a picture. Sent it. Look how beautiful this jewel is

19 from the moon, this beautiful jewel, Earth. And then,

20 20 years later -- or 30 years later, 1996, that

21 picture, and the next picture, then, and then the

22 future, 1996.

23 Wow. You can even -- when comparing to each

24 other, Mother Earth was all polluted. And it was, Oh,

25 man, if we don't do something -- if man doesn't do



Page 64

1 something now, we're going to destroy our own nesting

2 place. That was his words.

3 That's how that is, an eagle, as our nest.

4 That's how we are too. We learned from these animals

5 way before 300 or 3,000 years. 300,000 years, from

6 time memorial and way back, before.

7 We found out from one of our ancestors,

8 there's a big aquifer in Idaho -- (inaudible) -- Lake

9 Superior, a thousand springs that comes out. They

10 found a -- (inaudible) -- there in Idaho, 12,750 years

11 old. Artifacts still determine that she lived that

12 natural life of harmony, because we don't want the

13 earth destroyed.

14 So that is a pretty sad situation. So I

15 would like to just take a little -- time is short. I

16 wrote something here. What did I write?

17 And I was talking to my friend here. Maybe

18 us tribes need to get together and build our own aviary

19 and pitch in, you know, because, no offense, you know,

20 our trustee -- fiduciary trustee won't help us and

21 won't consult with us like they're supposed to under

22 that treaty.

23 They signed a peace treaty and smoked a pipe.

24 To tell the truth, man, it's not happening. So that's

25 why all this -- everything's going off balance, because



Page 65

1 they want -- (inaudible) -- the wisdom. And that needs

2 to change, or we're not going to make it further.

3 You know, we have veterans in here that

4 fought for this country. It's very disrespectful for

5 not being told about this falconry stuff. It's null

6 and void. It shouldn't be on the table. Congress

7 needs to be impeached.


9 Tribe. I appreciate all the folks being here today. I

10 think listening sessions are always great and glad we

11 have your ear.

12 I wanted to just go back to your comment

13 before I forget. The regulations versus the statutory

14 language, I think, is very important. I think when

15 that gentleman from -- I think it's Osage talked about

16 consultation, we need to have that -- those types of

17 sessions where we're talking about statutory language.

18 We're not talking about just regulations.

19 When we're talking about regulations, those things can

20 be changed. Policies can be changed. Those are

21 internal policies that Fish, Wildlife, and Parks has.

22 And they can determine how they want to address this

23 issue.

24 Today, they're here not as a statutory entity

25 but rather as a policy entity, where they're going to



Page 66

1 listen to us, and they're going to make some changes in

2 there. Are they substantive changes? Probably not.

3 They're probably policy changes that next year could

4 change.

5 So we're not -- and no offense to you folks

6 here -- but we're not talking to the right people. We

7 need to talk to our legislators. We need to talk to

8 our Congressional representatives. We need to have

9 statutory changes made in this effort.

10 Otherwise, we're going to be barking up

11 the -- we're still going to be talking about this

12 10 years from now. We're still going to be going up

13 against falconry -- falconers. We're still going to be

14 talking about how they can be part of this competition

15 for eagles.

16 My own personal thought is that there

17 shouldn't be falconers regarding eagles, personally.

18 No offense to you (to Kelly Hogan.) But I heard you

19 say that this is a way of life. Probably more in a

20 recreational sense.

21 I don't think "way of life" has the same

22 meaning as we do as Native people. This is who we are.

23 Birds are -- have been part of us. We depend on them

24 for survival. I don't think falconers can say that. I

25 mean, you do this part-time. We do this full-time.



Page 67

1 So there is a vast difference. And I -- we

2 can debate on that forever. But that's my own personal

3 feeling, coming from the Northern Cheyenne people.

4 And fiduciary folks that are supposed to be

5 taking up for us, the Bureau of Indian Affairs -- and

6 no offense to them, but if you look at their record of

7 responsibility, it hasn't been very -- very good.

8 They're the only entity I know that can violate tribal

9 rights and still have that fiduciary status to continue

10 to do that.

11 If you were to look at lawyers, and they did

12 that, they would be barred. Yet we never -- that's --

13 that doesn't seem to be an option, because they have

14 that fiduciary responsibility for us. So I don't

15 understand that, either.

16 Rehabilitators, do they have standards? If

17 they do, are they veterinarians? Can we have a copy of

18 what makes -- what allows them to be able to take those

19 birds and rehab them?

20 Because we hold such a high standard for

21 those animals, they should -- we should -- they should

22 have high standards to be able to care for these

23 animals, rather than just somebody saying, Well, you

24 could handle that; you could be a rehabilitator.

25 We need to have that. We need ensure that



Page 68

1 they're being well taken care of. It sounds like

2 anybody could be a rehabilitator. But we don't know

3 exactly, and they should be guided under certain laws.

4 If they're not doing their -- taking care of

5 them, then they should be felons for not taking care of

6 them. That's how high we have for this -- for this

7 animal, the eagle.

8 One last thing. Again, I think, when we're

9 talking about changes, let's -- you folks listening to

10 the tribes, these things should be addressed in a

11 regulatory manner, where there is statutory,

12 substantive law involved.

13 I just -- over the years, I just can't see

14 listening to us and nothing happening. It's like the

15 executive orders. That's all they were. They look

16 good on the outside. No teeth. Those can be rescinded

17 in one -- one hearing. There's nothing there that

18 guarantees that they're going to be on the books

19 forever.

20 And that's what we need as tribes. We need

21 to assert, as this gentleman said, our sovereign --

22 inherent sovereignty. And that means we've got to be

23 involved politically. And, again, no offense, but I

24 just don't have the faith, even though your intent is

25 good.



Page 69

1 You're here to listen to us and take it --

2 take whatever we give back to you. But there's no

3 guarantee anything's going to change, unless there's

4 teeth behind those laws. Thank you.

5 MS. WALSH: Thank you. Can you tell me,

6 again, your name? I'm sorry.


8 Tribe.

9 MS. WALSH: Thank you for your comments,

10 Mr. Fisher. And I wanted to say just two things

11 briefly in response.

12 One is, we can provide you a copy -- all of

13 you a copy of the standards that we use when we decide

14 whether or not to issue a permit for a rehabilitation

15 facility. So we can make sure to get that to you.

16 The other thing I wanted to say is, some of

17 the potential changes that we were discussing yesterday

18 and today are changes in regulation. Others would be

19 just changes in our policy or practices. So we are

20 discussing both of those things.

21 And of the things we put on the agenda, none

22 of those are changes in the statute. Although I

23 certainly respect that you may think some of the

24 statutes need to change, the things that we asked to

25 discuss with you either are regulation or policy



Page 70

1 changes. I just wanted make that clear.

2 And then, Mr. Tyler, I wanted to say I

3 respect that it seems disrespectful, but we are putting

4 these things in front of you today so that we can get

5 your reaction.

6 So you are hearing about it today before we

7 have proposed any changes, and we want to hear from you

8 whether those are good ideas or whether you have other

9 ideas.

10 MR. JUAN TYLER: You're not in charge to make

11 a decision and make the change, and we appreciate that.

12 You don't have the authority to make the change.

13 Congress will. Are you going to influence them to make

14 that change?

15 MS. WALSH: So, only Congress can change the

16 statute. At the agency level, the U.S. Fish and

17 Wildlife Service, we can change regulations. That

18 involves a public process and public comment, but we

19 change regulations at the agency level.

20 So I wanted to do a time check. We must

21 close at 11:00, I'm sorry to say. I have commitments

22 that I wasn't able to change when we decided to extend

23 our meeting until today. I have to leave at 11:00.

24 So we will not have time to get through the

25 rest of the topics that we had. And I do want to take



Page 71

1 just a minute at the end to reflect back to you the

2 kinds of things that I heard from you over the last two

3 days.

4 So let me just -- recognizing that I must

5 leave at 11:00, let me ask if there are any additional

6 comments that want to be made. Jesse.

7 MR. GUTIERREZ: Good afternoon. Jesse

8 Gutierrez, on behalf of the Santa Clara Pueblo.

9 Just a few comments. You know, I guess, in a

10 way, you guys like are messengers, and it's always a

11 shoot the messenger, you know. And it's like a

12 double-edged sword. I understand, for you, because you

13 get it from the tribes, and then you get it from your

14 higher-ups also.

15 You know, so I understand that position

16 you're in, you know. But at the same time, I think you

17 need to hear what we're saying, also, and then try to

18 push on our end to your higher-ups, also. On our end,

19 we still need to go to Congress and everybody else up

20 the chain, you know, as tribes, you know.

21 And the other concern, you know, is, like I

22 mentioned before, you know, I would like an opportunity

23 to take this information back to my tribe and have my

24 governor and council review these things and maybe

25 bring you guys back comments in a forum or something to



Page 72

1 that effect, you know.

2 That way, it comes in a proper way, you know.

3 And also, I would like to set up some kind of meeting,

4 you know.

5 I know we're from the southwest, you know,

6 but, you know, things that happen here with the

7 repository affect us from New Mexico, you know,

8 because, you know, like the gentleman said yesterday,

9 you know, we can't kill eagles there, because we'll be

10 thrown in the penitentiary for so many years, you know.

11 So we have to apply for these things, you

12 know. That's just one comment. And one other comment,

13 also, is that, you know, it's -- this animal is sacred

14 to us and all of us, you know. We use it in cultural,

15 traditional, our things that we pray to, the things we

16 pray to, you know.

17 And I know each person -- each tribe has

18 their things that they pray to, just like us. We have

19 many things that we pray to, you know. And it's

20 just -- it's just sad that we have to go through all

21 this to get something that is so sacred to us, you

22 know.

23 And that's the only thing that we have a hard

24 time at times getting ahold of, you know, like the

25 gentleman said yesterday, all these animals are all



Page 73

1 sacred to us, and a lot of them, we can get for

2 ourselves, you know.

3 And it's just something that's bothersome,

4 that we can't get the eagles as easily for our

5 traditional ways that -- that we can with the other

6 animals, you know. But, you know, that's just a

7 comment I'd like to make.

8 MS. WALSH: Do we have one more?

9 MR. SHAY: Darrel Shay, from the Sho-Ban

10 Tribe in Idaho. I'm in Region 1.

11 First of all, I'd just like to make it

12 understood that, because nobody has really talked for

13 the eagle, I think that's what you're hearing. Most of

14 us are talking for the eagle, because they don't have

15 no way of communicating to us what they feel, you know,

16 how they feel about it.

17 And we feel like we have that special

18 connection. So I'd just like to share that with you.

19 I want to acknowledge your effort to get to us to

20 address these issues.

21 It doesn't seem like, you know, it's really

22 taken the way that you guys wanted it to, especially

23 around the consultation issue.

24 It just seems like, you know, most of us that

25 have been involved in the tribe governments, we know



Page 74

1 what that is, and this didn't seem to appear to be it.

2 You know, it's more like a listening session. That's

3 why we even started calling it that.

4 And, you know, the rules that have been

5 developed, they impact us, you know. And it just seems

6 like the rules are -- to us, they're set in place, as

7 far as, I guess, how they -- how they relate to us, you

8 know. They prohibit us from doing this and that.

9 We can't even, you know, take a dead eagle

10 that we find, you know, if we -- you know, we get in

11 trouble over it, and the list goes on. But it just

12 seems like the impact to us is a lot greater than it is

13 to anybody else.

14 I mean, you've got the rehabilitators.

15 You've got the falconers, you know. And, you know, you

16 can -- you can take the carcasses for scientific

17 research. And, you know, you can come up with

18 exceptions to these rules.

19 And the one thing that stands pretty clear,

20 though, is the enforcement. We know about that. We

21 know that we'd get prosecuted, no question, if we have

22 obtained an eagle feather, you know, I guess, not

23 according to the rules. Okay?

24 If it was, you know, handed down as a special

25 gift, whether if you're enrolled or not enrolled, you



Page 75

1 know. We don't have no questions about the enforcement

2 side. But the way I look at it, and I don't know if --

3 I don't think I'm alone in this -- is that the way the

4 rules are written are pretty clear.

5 But they're being exempted, and when you

6 start exempting those rules, then it just becomes a

7 mockery of the rules. And I don't think that's what --

8 that's what they were set out to be.

9 I mean, you know, when special interests come

10 in and trump Native Americans that have a real unique

11 relationship to this bird, I know we have some of those

12 kinds of issues; that's -- we can clearly identify with

13 those issues.

14 Back home, we have an issue with the rock

15 climbers. The rock climbers want to climb these

16 pristine rock walls. They drive big bolts in them, and

17 then they go up and down. But in that process, they

18 desecrate a lot of our archeological sites or our

19 sacred sites.

20 And they do it -- they do it in the name of,

21 I have that right. I'm an American. I have, you know,

22 constitutional rights to do some of these things. And

23 besides that, it's fun, and we spend a lot of money.

24 It bolsters the economics around that given area.

25 So everybody thinks, Oh, it's okay. But to



Page 76

1 us, it's not. And this kind of -- this issue is

2 really, really the same, because we view -- we view the

3 eagle in the same way we view our sacred sites.

4 All of these things are interrelated in our

5 belief system. And I think that's what -- that's what

6 you're hearing. At least, that's what I heard. Maybe

7 I'm not sitting over there, and I didn't -- maybe what

8 I heard is different from what you guys are hearing.

9 But, hopefully, we got this message across.

10 And I think this is just the opening of this

11 discussion, I believe. You know, we need -- we need to

12 keep talking if we want to get somewhere, because, like

13 some of those folks here said, you know, we're not --

14 we're not the Indian of 10 years ago. We're not the

15 Indian of 20 years ago.

16 You're seeing us have a little bit more

17 influence in what's going on, you know? And we kind of

18 have studied the behavior of the federal bureaucracy,

19 and we kind of know what to do with them and what not

20 to do, when to use them and when not to use them.

21 And I think it boils down to that question of

22 sovereignty. You know, who makes our decisions for us?

23 Well, we do, nowadays. And I think it's going to get

24 more stronger. Thank you.

25 MS. WALSH: Thank you, Mr. Shay. I want to



Page 77

1 take just a minute or two to try to reflect back to all

2 of you what I think I heard from you over the last two

3 days.

4 And I'm under no illusions that I can capture

5 everything that I heard from you, but I think there are

6 some things that stood out to me that I would want you

7 to know and that I heard from you and some actions that

8 we will take, based on those things that we heard.

9 So I heard a lot over both days, and I

10 learned a lot from every one of you that spoke to us.

11 I heard a lot of questions from you. I heard things

12 like, Why does the Fish and Wildlife Service control

13 these articles that are very sacred to us?

14 Why is a permit necessary to exercise our

15 religion? I heard, Why are we burdened by rules, and

16 it seems like others are not burdened by the same

17 rules?

18 And I heard you say, These are not our ways.

19 This -- our practices are part of who we are, part of

20 how we were created, and these are not your ways. I

21 heard you say that. And, please excuse me, I took some

22 notes so that I wouldn't miss important points, and

23 that's what I'm looking at here as I talk to you.

24 As I heard those things from you, as I

25 listened to you, particularly yesterday morning, I



Page 78

1 asked myself, How would I feel if I thought my own

2 faith/tradition was being regulated, if I was

3 questioned by law enforcement officers who didn't seem

4 to understand or be sensitive to my belief and my

5 faith?

6 I would not feel good. I get that. So I

7 heard from you yesterday, through all of your words,

8 through your faces, and through the applause that you

9 had for each other when many of you stood up and spoke,

10 I heard that this is a wound, and this is a very

11 hurtful situation to you.

12 I can't fix everything, but my desire is to

13 do what's under our control, relative to eagles and

14 eagle conservation and eagle permitting, to make the

15 situation better within the confines of the law that

16 Congress has given us.

17 And our motivation, those of that us you see

18 here today representing the U.S. Fish and Wildlife

19 Service, our motivation is, really, to preserve your

20 rights, to exercise your spiritual practices involving

21 feathers and eagles, and to regulate others who don't

22 have those same rights.

23 I think Steve explained very well a couple of

24 times that other people don't have the same rights. We

25 have to have a way to distinguish those people from



Page 79

1 Native Americans. So I think there is room for a lot

2 of further discussion about how we can better do that.

3 And Clint mentioned at the end of the day

4 yesterday, that one of the things we will commit to

5 doing is to take action to try and help sensitize law

6 enforcement officers from other agencies outside of the

7 U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to your practices, to

8 your religious beliefs, to how important eagle feathers

9 and eagles are to you in a spiritual context.

10 So we will work on that, and we will work

11 with the Department of Justice to share that

12 information and try to educate the law enforcement

13 officers that you may come in contact with that are not

14 part of our agency.

15 We heard a lot today regarding eagles that

16 are taken from the wild due to depredation. Falconers

17 are mentioned in the federal statute as potential

18 recipients but not as the only recipients of those

19 falcons that may be taken from the wild.

20 So I heard your request that you want access

21 to those eagles. I heard that you would like an

22 opportunity to also have access to eagles taken from

23 the wild due to depredation. That's something that

24 we'll want to continue working on with you.

25 I heard yesterday that you all are asking us



Page 80

1 to help you protect eagles and eagle habitat from other

2 factors, from development that threatens their breeding

3 habitat and their wintering habitat.

4 So we do that. We do that under that same

5 statute, the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. We

6 work to protect eagle habitat from developers and

7 others, at least according to the law and the

8 regulations.

9 But one interesting thing I heard yesterday

10 from Mr. Terry Knight was whether we've fully explored

11 the potential of those designations, like historic

12 cultural sites or historic -- sites of historic

13 significance that are actually eagle -- important eagle

14 habitat areas; can they be designated under the NHPA as

15 another tool to help protect them?

16 I don't know, but that's something that we

17 can explore. Regarding the whole process of

18 consultation, I heard you say we should ask you what

19 you want to consult on; we'll give you a list of what

20 we want to consult on. I got that message.

21 I heard you say that your tribal elders, your

22 council, your medicine people should be part of a

23 consultation on these topics we've been talking about

24 these last two days. And I heard many people say that

25 real consultation means that we have to come to you



Page 81

1 where you live with your council.

2 This is a hard one. I think those first two,

3 we can address much better, and we can work on that.

4 But us coming to all of you where you live is very,

5 very difficult. And I know this is not a welcome

6 message.

7 It is very difficult for us to get to all the

8 federally-recognized tribes. I have constraints in

9 terms of the number of staff we have, the number of

10 tribes within our region, the funding levels that we

11 have for travel.

12 I don't say that by way of excuse. But I

13 think it's important that you know that the ideal for

14 us would be to come to each of you personally to

15 consult on every issue, and that may not be possible

16 for us. We have to work together to find a way to do

17 meaningful consultation when I can't be at every place

18 within the region.

19 So a couple of other things that we want to

20 commit to, based on what we heard from you over these

21 two days, a lot of requests for yesterday for, Where do

22 all the eagles come from? What states do they come

23 from to the repository?

24 Steve had that information available

25 yesterday, but we will also have it on our Web site.



Page 82

1 And I think you all got a copy of this card, which

2 shows our Web site. If you didn't, please pick one up

3 before you go. We'll make sure those statistics are

4 available there.

5 We had the good fortune to have some tribes,

6 the Pueblos, here from a part of the country that is

7 not part of my region of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife

8 Service. From the southwest region of the U.S. Fish

9 and Wildlife Service headquarters in Albuquerque, we

10 had at least two -- two Pueblos here.

11 So I will commit, first of all, to

12 communicating with my counterpart in Albuquerque, the

13 regional director, Benjamin Tuttle, out of Albuquerque,

14 to let him know what we talked about these last two

15 days.

16 We will share the notes and the transcript

17 from these meetings with Benjamin Tuttle so he knows

18 what was discussed. And then, I will ask him to work

19 with you directly to continue some of these

20 conversations.

21 Not that we don't want to keep talking with

22 you; we do. But there may be some things that you may

23 want to work on him -- work on with him directly.

24 And then, lastly, I would like us to have

25 another Eagle Summit, if that is something that is --



Page 83

1 will continue to be of interest to you. And you guys

2 have to give me feedback as to whether it is.

3 And I will say, if we do that, I'd like to do

4 it in a different way. I would like to see if any of

5 you would volunteer to work with us to construct and

6 organize and plan a session that would be most

7 meaningful to you. So that's an offer I put on the

8 table.

9 You don't have to answer me now, but it's

10 feedback I would very much appreciate having from you

11 about what we might do together in the future.

12 I am very sorry that we're at 11:00 and that

13 I can't stay any longer. But I just want to say a

14 sincere thank you for all of you that not only were

15 here yesterday but were willing to come back today and

16 share your thoughts with us.

17 It has been very beneficial for me. So thank

18 you. Okay. I'm going it turn over to Clint for just

19 one closing comment, and then I understand we have a

20 closing prayer.

21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'd just like to ask a

22 quick question. How many in the room would like to see

23 another Eagle Summit?

24 MR. FISHER: And I'd like to add on, to

25 everybody, if you have any funding available -- because



Page 84

1 that's a critical issue when it comes to

2 participation -- if there is funding, if you could find

3 some funding in your coffers, I think it would really

4 be nice. I think you'd have a lot more participation.

5 MR. ROUNDSTONE: And just for your

6 information, these programs, the historical

7 preservation tribal programs, they're probably the

8 lowest-funded organization within the tribal

9 organizations. Those are traditional people. Take

10 that into consideration for your next one.

11 MR. MARTEL: Noreen, I'd like to thank you

12 for your comments there, because, quite frankly,

13 yesterday and this morning, I kind of felt like I was

14 being used, and I don't like feeling like that. You

15 know?

16 And the guys do the -- like yesterday

17 morning, well, this is not a consultation. I don't

18 know what we were doing yesterday, just having a BS

19 session or a confab, or what that was. But, you know,

20 and then it just, like, Well, we had our consultation

21 yesterday afternoon with the tribes, well, this is what

22 we are going to do.

23 And what you said you were going to do makes

24 me feel a little better. Thank you.

25 MR. RILEY: The only part I wanted to follow



Page 85

1 up was to say we do both want input in general, and we

2 want to achieve the expectations for consultation.

3 And our attempts yesterday in distinguishing

4 was part of our understanding of consultation is that

5 it would be people who are authorized to speak on

6 behalf of the tribe and government to government. And

7 that's why all of our outreach was inviting the

8 afternoon to meet for that purpose.

9 And -- but we also know that there's -- the

10 opportunity for any discussion is always healthy. And

11 so we're looking for ways to both to have open

12 discussions, as well as signal when we would document

13 this as somebody speaking officially as a

14 government-to-government relationship.

15 And we'll keep working on trying to do that.

16 Since we didn't get to all of the discussions that we

17 wanted your thoughts on, I hope people have material.

18 Absolutely any -- any communication you could

19 provide to us, written or otherwise, about thoughts on

20 any of these proposals, some of them may not even move

21 forward to proposals, but we would be disappointed to

22 move towards proposals publicly without having heard

23 from you if you have thoughts to share in advance of

24 that, in fact, or thoughts.

25 And so the things we didn't get to, I hope we



Page 86

1 may have an opportunity to talk more, if not

2 immediately. And then, as you go home and you have

3 additional thoughts to share, we'll look forward to

4 hearing those.

5 And Ivy Allen is -- and thank you for all of

6 her work on bringing us together the last couple of

7 days. She's the most efficient way to connect with our

8 office, and if she can't answer questions on these or

9 any other issues, she certainly brings others of us

10 into the discussion.

11 And we look forward to hearing from you, as

12 well as looking forward to reaching out to you again.

13 To close, I understand Scott did ask,

14 Mr. Lujan, would you be willing to close again today?

15 MR. LUJAN: (Closing prayer.)

16 And I would like to thank you for the

17 hospitality you showed to us.

18 WHEREUPON, the within proceedings were

19 concluded at the approximate hour of 11:16 a.m. on the

20 21st day of March, 2014.

21 * * * * * *

22

23

24

25



Page 87

1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

2 STATE OF COLORADO )

3 ) ss.

4 CITY AND COUNTY OF DENVER )

5 I, WENDY McCAFFREY, Professional Court

6 Reporter and Notary Public, State of Colorado, do

7 hereby certify that the said Eagle Summit III

8 proceeding was taken in machine shorthand by me at the

9 time and place aforesaid and was thereafter reduced to

10 typewritten form, consisting of 87 pages herein; that

11 the foregoing is a true transcript of the proceedings

12 had. I further certify that I am not employed by,

13 related to, nor of counsel for any of the parties

14 herein, nor otherwise interested in the outcome of this

15 proceeding.

16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have affixed my

17 signature and seal this ____ day of ______________,

18 2014.

19 My commission expires January 30, 2016.

20 _____________________________________________

21 Wendy McCaffrey Professional Court Reporter

22

23

24

25

Documents

Transcript of the Testimony of EAGLE SUMMIT, III March 20 ... · Transcript of the Testimony of EAGLE SUMMIT, III March 20, 2014 vs. Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R. Doreen Girdeen, R.P.R