Transcript (Day C061) 3 February

8/9/2019 Transcript (Day C061) 3 February

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.03/02/2015(C0061) C6068

Transcript produced by Merrill Corporation

ROYALCOMMISSIONINTOINSTITUTIONALRESPONSESTOCHILDSEXUALABUSE

PublicHearing CaseStudy22(DayC0061)

Court3.3,CountyCourtofVictoria250WilliamStreet,Melbourne

OnTuesday,3February2015at10.00am

BeforeThePresidingMember: JusticeJenniferAnnCoateCommissioners: MrRobertFitzgeraldAM

MrAndrewMurray

CounselAssisting: MsMariaGerace


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.03/02/2015(C0061) C6069 Z WAKS (MsGerace)


1 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Goodmorning,MsGerace.2

3 MSGERACE: Goodmorning,YourHonour. Couldwestart4 thismorningbycallingwitnessZephaniahWaks,please.

5

6


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1 A. Yes,yes,"I"insteadofa"U".2

3 Q. Andtheninparagraph64thewords"thatmyfamily4 faced"shouldbe"my"ratherthan"may"?5 A. Yes.6

7 Q. Saveforthoseamendments,isthecontentofthis8 statementtrueandcorrecttothebestofyourknowledge

9 andbelief?10 A. 100percent,yes.11

12 Q. BeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,MrWaks,youare13 thefatherofMannyWaks,whoweheardfromyesterdayand14 alsothefatheroftwootherboyswhowereabusedwhilst15 theywerestudentsatYeshivahCollege?16 A. Yes,correct.

1718 Q. Andyouarethefatherofhowmanychildren?

19 A. Seventeen.20

21 Q. AndyouhavebeenpartoftheChabadLubavitch22 movementfromthetimeofyouryouth;isthatright?23 A. Icametoitlater,butforthelast45yearsorso.24

25 Q. AndpartoftheYeshivahcommunityfromthetimeyou26 movedtoAustralia;isthatright?27 A. Evenoverseas,thewholetimesincethenfrombefore

28

I

left

Australia.

29

30 Q. Andwasacentralpartofthatmovementyour31 involvementwiththeYeshivahCentreinMelbourne?32 A. Yes,ofcourse. Welivedrightopposite. Webought33 theplacethereespeciallyforthat. Thekidswentto34 schoolwithoutcrossingtheroad. Allthefacilitieswere35 there,thesynagogue,theschool,boysandgirls,mikveh.36 Everythingwasthere.37

38 Q. Didallofyourchildrenattendschoolatthe39 Yeshivah?40 A. Yes. CanIaddsomethingtothatbecauseit's41 somethingthatpeopledon'tcompletelyunderstand. Asa42 memberoftheChabadmovementyoureallyhadtosendyour43 childrenjusttothatschool. InMelbourne,eventhough44 therewasatleastoneotherschoolthatwouldhavebeen45 suitableonareligiouslevel,sociallyitistotally46 unacceptabletodoit. Soanysuggestionthatyoushould47 havetakenyourkidsoutoftheschoolordonesomething


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1 else,itwouldhavemeantleavingAustralia,notjust2 Melbourne. There'snowhereelseyoucouldsendyourkids

3 toschool. Itwasn'tanoption.4

5 Q. Wasanaspectofthefaith,theultraOrthodoxfaith6 withinChabad,thatyourchildrenshouldbeeducatedina

7 particularwayreligiously?8 A. Yes,notevenjustreligiously,butparticularly9 withintheChabadframework,veryparticular.

10

11 Q. Afocusinthewayinwhichreligiousstudieswere12 undertaken?13 A. Correct.14

15 Q. Andafocusonthewayofpracticeofdaytodayfaith16 ofstudents?

17

A.

Exactly.

A

particular

emphasis.

Exactly.

18

19 Q. Sowasitexpected,isthatyourevidence,that20 parentswhohadchildrenthattheywantedtorearwithin21 theultraOrthodoxortheChabadcommunityeducatedthemat22 aChabadinstitution?23 A. Only,andRabbiGronerwasveryballisticaboutpeople24 whotookkidsout. That'sabsolutely Iknowone25 particularcase,Ihadonekidthatlearntsomewhereelse26 butonlybecausehewasexactlyinanagegroupwherehe27 couldn'tyetgototheoldergroup,YeshivahGedolaiswhat28

it's

called,

and

he

didn't

have

a

class

at

his

age

group

29 learningonlyreligiousstudiesintheschool. Sothere30 wasnooption. Theycouldn'tdoanythingelse. Sohewas,31 unwillinglyorwhatever,butallowedtogosomewhereelse32 withoutanymajorproblembeingraised. Butnobodyelse33 coulddoit. OneotherpersonthatIknowdiditbecause34 ofaveryinterestingreasonwhy,buthesentthekidsto35 Adass,theotherultraOrthodoxschoolinMelbourne,andhe36 wasessentiallyoutoftheChabadcommunityeventhoughhe37 wasstillChabadandsomeofhiskidswenttolearnin

38

Chabad

institutions

overseas

afterwards,

but

within

Chabad39 Melbourneitwasjustdespised.

40

41 Q. Whatwouldyousaytothesuggestionthenthatit42 wouldappearthattobepartofthecommunitytherewere43 expectationsonmembersaboutthewaytheydidcertain44 thingsandoneofthemiseducatingtheirchildrenwithina45 Chabadschool?46 A. There'sexpectationsonalmosteverything. That's47 fairenough. It'snotlookedatasaparticularlyonerous


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1 thingwhenyouarepartofthatgroup.2

3 Q. Justifyoucouldhelpusunderstandalittlebit4 aboutwhatitmeanttobeChabad. Wherewasthefocus5 withinChabadon,say,religiousstudiesoradherenceto6 OrthodoxpreceptsorthewayinwhichChabadapplied7 Orthodoxprecepts? Couldyouhelpusunderstandwhatthat8 meantformembersofthecommunityonadaytodaybasis,

9 forinstance?10 A. Okay. Again,togetitclear,theschoolandthe11 centreisreallybrokenupintoprobablythreegroups.12 TherearepeoplethatarehardcoreChabad,withlongbeards13 andeverythinglikethat. Thentherearepeoplethatare14 stronglyreligiousandthentheyattendthesynagogueand15 everythinglikethat,buttheyarenotChabad,buttheydo16 sendtheirkidsthere. Thentherearepeoplealso,groups

17

from

within

Melbourne,

they

really

aren't

affiliated

with18 Chabadatallandsomeofthemaren'tevenreligiousand

19 theyalsosendtheirkidstothatschool. Sothereare20 threegroupslikethat. Sowithinthegroupthatare21 actuallyhardcoreChabad,thereisaparticularapproachto22 Judaismwhichisbasedverymuchonaverystrict23 interpretationandfulfillingthecommandmentsandJewish24 lawandeverythinglikethat,withaparticulartwistof25 verymuchintooutreach. It'savery,youknow,niceidea26 andpeopletakeitveryseriously. Havinganopenhouse,27 dealingwithpeoplethatarenotreligiousandtreating28

them

very

nicely,

not

looking

down

on

them,

as

some

other

29 groupsdo.30

31 There'sstillanelementofcomplacencyandfeeling32 youareabithigher,butingeneraltherewasdefinitelya33 goodsidetoitofgoingoutandbringingotherpeople34 closetoJudaism. ThelateLubavitchRebbewasvery35 strong,thataftertheHolocaustyoureallyhadtodo36 somethingwiththelittlebitthatwaslefttokeepJewsto37 beJewish,otherwisethewholethingwoulddieout. Sohe

38

was

very

much

into

that,

that

even

people

at

their

own39 expenseofdoingwhattheywoulddoandotherpeople

40 learningalotanddelvingintotheJewishlawandstudy41 it,hewouldbeplacingtheemphasisongoingoutin42 outreach,goingandlivinginplaceswheretherewereno43 otherJews,veryfew,noamenities. Ihaveakidnowin44 Americalivingonacampus. Therearenoamenitiesinthe45 townandthereareJewishstudentsthere. Thatiswhyhe46 hasgonethere. Butthattypeofthing.47


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1 Q. Whenyousaidearlier,yousaidthe"late2 Chabad/Yeshivah",wereyoureferringtothelateLubavitch3 Rebbeandhisfocusofoutreach?

4 A. Yes,hewasverystrongonthat,morethananyother5 personandmorethananyotherLubavitchRebbe. Buthe

6 reallyputtheemphasisonthat,onoutreach.7

8 Q. Andwasyourunderstandingofhismissiontocreate9 theoutreachfocustoprovideandstrengthentheJewish

10 movementaftertheHolocaust?11 A. Yes.12

13 Q. Andwhenyoudescribeoutreach,doyoumeanboth14 charityaswellasbringingpeopleclosertoJudaismordo15 youmeanbringingpeopleclosertoJudaism?16 A. Whateverisrequiredtobringpeoplecloserto

17

Judaism.

Other

groups

did

place

I

would

say

a

stronger18 emphasisoncharityandvisitingthesickandeverything

19 likethat. Hereeverythingwasgearedtowardsthat,ina20 goodway. I'mnotevensayingitinanegativewayatall.21 Thepeoplethatdiditatleast,theleadersI'mabitmore22 scepticalaboutnow,butthepractitionersweredoingitin23 a theyfelttheyhadtodoitanditwastherightthing24 andtheyunderstood.25

26 Q. SothefocuswasonstrengtheningtheJewish27 community?28

A.

Yes.

29

30 Q. BringingpeopleclosertotheJewishcommunity?31 A. Jewsthathadlosttheirwayorhadneverbeen32 educated,peoplewhohadcomefromRussiathathadnever33 hadachancetodoanything,peopleborninAustralialike34 myself. Icametoitatage20,let'ssay,exactlyfrom35 thattypeofthing,someonewhohadgoneout. Aprofessor36 ofmathematicsinSydney,Iwenttoatalkofhisand37 that'showIbecameinvolved. Ihadbeentotallysecular

38

until

then.39

40 Q. IntermsofbringingthemclosertoJudaism,wasthe41 focusofthemovementtobringthemclosertoOrthodox42 JudaismaspractisedwithinChabad?43 A. Correct.44

45 Q. Earlierinyourevidenceyoudescribed,perhaps46 loosely,yourowndescriptionofhowpeoplewithinChabad47 were Ithinkyouusedtheword"hardcore",thosemore


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1 moderateormiddleoftheline,andthosewhoperhapswere,2 whatevertheirmanifestationoffaithwas,alittleless3 thanmiddleoftheline. Whenyouhadyourchildrenatthe4 YeshivahCentre,sogoingbackwhentheywereyoungerand5 wereatschool,wherewouldyouhaveclassifiedyourself

6 withinthatcategory?7 A. Rightuntilvery,veryrecentlyIwashardcoreChabad,8 totallyintoeverything. WhenIwasintheprivatehearing9 Istillhadalongbeard. Ihavespecificallytakenitoff

10 nowandthatmakesastatement. I'mnothardcoreChabadat11 allnow.12

13 Q. Whendidthatshift,thatchangefromhardcoreChabad?14 A. Formyself?15

16 Q. Foryourself?

17

A.

Over

these

last

four

years,

once

I

realised

that18 peopleweren'tgoingtochange,anditwasn'tjustthe

19 leaders,thecommunitiesthemselvesweren'tgoingto20 change,Ijustreallywasn'tinterested. SoI'mstilla21 practisingOrthodoxJew,butnotinthatstrainanymore.22

23 Q. Whenyousaythelastfouryears,areyoutalking24 abouttheeventsthatyoudescribeinyourstatement?25 A. Correct.26

27 Q. FromthetimeofMannyWaksdisclosinghisabuse?28

A.

Correct.

29

30 Q. JustbeforeItakeyoutoyourstatement,couldyou31 helpustounderstandwhatitmeant,thedaytoday32 practiceforyouwithinChabad,withinthehardcorearea,33 whatwasthefocusofeachdayorwasthereaparticular34 focusinthewaythefaithwasexercised? Couldyouhelp35 ustounderstandwhattheinvolvementintheYeshivah36 communitymeant?37 A. Theprayerinthemorningisanhour,let'ssay,let's

38

say

for

hardcore

people.

Prayer

is

stressed.

Let's

say

39 it'sanhourinthemorning. LaterinthedayIworked40 fromhome,soIwouldnormallygo,Iwouldhaveanotherone41 ortwohoursofJewishlearningduringthedayandit's42 rightacrosstheroad,sothat'sanothertwohours. Inthe43 afternoonservice,anotherthreequartersofanhour.44 Ioftenusedtolearnbetweentheafternoonandtheevening45 serviceandthenthenightservice. Intheafternoon46 there'sanotherhourandahalf,twohours. Soit'savery47 significantpartoftheday. Imighthavedoneabitmore


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1 thanotherpeoplebecauseIhadtheluxuryofworkingfrom2 home,butmanypeoplewouldhavehadaverysimilarthing.

3 ThenyouhavethefocusoninvitingpeoplefortheSabbath.4 Wehadanopenhome. Itwaswellknowninthecommunity.5 Mywifewasinvolvedin evenatthetimewhenshewas6 bringingupallthekidsshewasheavilyinvolvedinthe7 women'sorganisation. Shewasthepresidentatvarious8 times. Sheusedtoorganisemanyofthefunctions. She's9 averygoodorganiserandverycharismatic. Thatwasour

10 wholelife. Welivedthere. Allourfriendswerefrom11 there. SometimesIusedtobeasked,"Doyouhaveany12 peopleoutsidethecommunity? Doyouhaveanygentile13 friends?" Isaid,"Ireallydon'thavetimeforit."14 Idon'thaveaproblem,butthere'snotime.15

16 Q. WoulditbefairthentodescribetheYeshivahCentre

17

and

the

various

activities

undertaken

in

the

Yeshivah18 Centretohavebeentheepicentreformanyoftheir

19 daytodaylifewiththeChabadcommunity?20 A. 100percent. ThepeoplethatIwouldcallhardcore,21 thatwouldbetheirepicentre. Exactly. Theirkidsare22 allgoingtoschoolthere. Inmanycasesbothparentsare23 teachingthere. Alltheiractivitiesarethere;exactly.24

25 Q. Justbecauseyouhaveraisedacoupleoftermsthat26 perhapsoutsideofthecommunitymaynotbewidelyknown,27 youtalkedaboutShabbat?28

A.

Yes.

29

30 Q. Couldyoutellusalittlebitaboutwhat 31 A. TheSabbathisfromFridaynightuntilSaturdaynight.32 Youdon'tdriveinyourcar. Youdon'ttravel. Youdon't33 useanyelectricalappliances. It'sjustforprayer,34 learningandbeingwiththefamilyandeatingplenty.35 That'swhatit'sfor,andit'sthetimewhenyouhave36 guests. Sowealwayshad wehaveatablethatseats37 about20people,whichevenatthetimewhenwehadmany

38

less

children

that's

when

we

got

it

because

we

would

often39 haveatablewith20,25peopleatthetableonaFriday

40 night. Peoplethathaveneverhadachance notjust41 friendsatall;therewouldalwaysbepeoplewhohad42 nothingtodowithJudaismintheirpast. Sothatwouldbe43 thefocusoftheSabbath.44

45 Q. Intermsofthedinner,isthatsomethingthat's46 referredtoastheShabbatdinner?47 A. Yes.


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1

2 Q. AndisthatthecommunalaspectoftheShabbatdinner,3 invitingguestsandIassumebeinginvitedinturntoother4 people'shomes

5 A. Wewereneverinvitedbecauseofthenumberofkids.6 Untilalmosteverybodylefthome,wewereneverinvited,7 ever,anditwasn'tbecauseweweren'tfriendly.8

9 Q. Youjustcouldn'tbeaccommodated,isthatright?10 A. Yes,itwasverydifficult.11

12 Q. Atleastthenfromyourperspectiveinvitingpeople13 over 14 A. Yes,it'sfunnyyouaskthat. Itwasahighlight,the15 firstinvitationwegot,youknow,wasonlyafewyearsago16 whenweonlyhad,let'ssay,twokidswithus.

1718 Q. Youwerealittlebiteasiertofitinthen?

19 A. Mmmhmm.20

21 Q. Butthataspectofcommunityaspractisedbyinviting22 peopletoShabbatdinner,isthatanimportantaspectof23 beingwithintheChabadcommunity,thesenseofconnection24 withothers?25 A. Yes.26

27 Q. Andthesharingofthatreligioustimewitheach

28

other?

29 A. That'sright,becauseItoldyouinChabadit's30 outreach,sothat'stheperfecttimetodoit. Coming31 along. Seeingthecandles. Everybodyhastimetosit32 togetherandtalk. Soitisaveryauspicioustimetobe33 abletodooutreachinaverynaturalway. That'swhy34 Iparticularly Fridaynightisaparticulartime. Wedid35 itperhapsalittlemorethanothers,butmany,manypeople36 doit. It'saverywidespreadthing.37

38

Q.

All

right,

Mr

Waks,

I

will

take

you

to

your

statement.

39 BeforeIdothat,YourHonour,couldItenderthestatement40 ofZephaniahWaks,27January2015.41

42 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Exhibit225.43

44 EXHIBIT#225STATEMENTOFZEPHANIAHWAKS45

46 MSGERACE: MrWaks,couldIaskyoutoread,please,part47 ofyourstatementfirstlystartingfromparagraph3andup


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1 toandincludingparagraph10,stoppingjustbeforethe2 disclosureofabusebyKramer,please?

3 A. MyfullnameisZephaniahWaks. Mydateofbirthis4 22June1949. IammarriedtoHayaWaks. Wemetatthe5 headquartersoftheChabadLubavitch(Chabad)movementin

6 CrownHeightsinBrooklyn,NewYork,UnitedStatesof7 America. WemarriedinIsraelin1974. Ourfamilythen8 movedtoSydneyin1984andthentoMelbournein1985.9 UponmovingtoVictoriamyfamilyandIlivedinStKilda

10 EastdirectlyacrosstheroadfromtheYeshivahCentre11 Melbourne. Ourfamilyhomeiscurrentlyonthemarketfor12 sale.13

14 HayaandIhave17children,comprisedofsix15 daughtersand11sons. AllofmysonsattendedYeshivah16 CollegeinStKildaEast,Melbourne. YeshivahCollegeisa

17

Jewish

day

school

for

boys

run

by

the

Yeshivah

Centre.18 YeshivahCollegeandtheYeshivahCentresharethesame

19 grounds.20

21 Threeofmysonsweresexuallyabusedbymembersof22 theYeshivahCollegeandCentrecommunity. Myeldestson23 MannywasabusedbyDavidCyprysand[AVP]. Twootherof24 mysonswereabusedbyDavidKramer,orRabbiDavid25 Kramer 26

27 Q. MrWaks,couldIaskyoutojustslowdown,forpeople28

following

and

also

those

recording?

29 A. Sorry,sorry. Thebusinessabouttherabbi,youare30 goingtoaskmeaboutthatlater,areyou?31

32 Q. Iam,yes?33 A. Ifirstbecameawareofallegationsofsexualabuse34 againstCyprysinlate1991orearly1992,whenDetective35 DonahuefromtheVictoriaPolicechildexploitationsquad36 rangme. HetoldmethatManny'snamehadcomeupin37 relationtoaninvestigationintoCyprysandheaskedmeto

38

speak

with

Manny

with

a

view

to

finding

out

if

he

knew39 anythingaboutCyprysandtoletMannyknowthatthepolice

40 wereinterestedinspeakingwithhim. Ididspeakwith41 Manny,whosaidhewasnotinterestedinspeakingtothe42 police. IassumedthatMannywasawitnessinrelationto43 anassaultonanotherboy. ItoldDetectiveDonaghuethat44 Mannydidnotwanttospeakwithhimandleftitatthat.45

46 NotlongafterwardsIbecameawarethatCypryshad47 beenchargedwithindecentlyassaultingaboywhohadbeen


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1 atschoolwithManny. Irecallthatthebarristerwho2 representedCyprys,RobertSeifman,wasacongregantatthe

3 YeshivahSynagogue. ThechargeandthefactthatCyprys4 receivedagoodbehaviourbondwaswidelyknownandtalked

5 aboutintheYeshivahcommunity.6

7 Q. Thankyou. MrWaks,Idon'tknowwhetheryouhavehad8 theopportunitytoseethepseudonymlist,buttheperson9 yourefertointhisparagraph10,theboywhoyouhad

10 heardabouthadbeenassaultedbyCyprys,wasthatthe11 witnessreferredtointheseproceedingsas[AVR]? Doyou12 haveacopyofthepseudonymlistinfrontofyou?13 A. Yes,butIdon'tevenknowwho[AVR]is.14

15 Q. Okay.16 A. Itrings I'mprettysurethatthat'sthename,yes.

1718 Q. SodoIunderstandthenwhenyousayherewhatyou

19 heardwasthataboythathadbeenatschoolwithMannywas20 aboywhohadbeenassaultedbyCyprys?21 A. Yes.22

23 Q. Butyouweren'tpreciselysurewhoitwas?24 A. Ididn'tknowthepersonandIthinkthekidsall25 said theyprobablysaidhisnameatthetime. But26 Ididn'tknowthepersonandIdon'tthinkhewasinthe27 classwithanyofmykids. Ihadsixboysinarow,so28

I

had

kids

in

classes

with

a

lot

of

people

but

I

don't

29 thinkhewasintheclass. It'snotsomeoneIknew.30 Iwouldn'thaverecognisedhim.31

32 Q. Didyoucomeacrossthisinformation,thisknowledge33 thatCypryshadbeenchargedandreceivedabond,justbya34 conversationinthecommunity?35 A. Correct. Itwaswidelyknown. Itwasnotknownby36 everybody,Ibelieve,butitwasknownverywidely.37

38

Q.

And

even

to

the

point

of

knowing

what

he

actually

got

39 whenhewenttocourt;isthatright?40 A. Yes.41

42 Q. Andthiswasataboutthetimeofthecharge;isthat43 whatyouaretalkingabout?44 A. Yes,somethinglikethat,yes. Yes,ifitwasexactly45 thenoramonthlaterorsomething,itwasaroundthen.46 I'mprettysureweknewaboutitbeforehewenttocourt47 andeverythinglikethat. I'mprettysure.


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1

2 Q. AnddidyouknowRobertSeifman?3 A. Ididn'tknowhimpersonally,butIdidn'thavea4 particularlygoodopinionofhim,no.5

6 Q. Leavethataside.7 A. Okay,sorry.8

9 Q. Butyouknewwhohewasfromthesynagogue,didyou?10 A. Yes,Iknewhewasinthe....11

12 Q. Yes?13 A. Justthathelookedlikeabarristerthat yes.14

15 Q. Wewon'tgothere.16 A. No,wewon'tgothere.

1718 Q. CanItakeyoutoparagraphnumber8,please. Inthis

19 statementyouamendedittoread youwantedtosay20 somethingaboutDavidKramer,referringtohimasRabbi21 Kramer?22 A. Sorry,justwhatIsaidbefore,whenIsaidwhat23 Ithoughtofhim,Ididn'treallyknowhimbeforethat,but24 whenIheardthatsomeonedefendedthatguyinthatwayand25 gothimoff,thatmadeaverystrongimpressiononmeat26 thetime. EventhoughIdidn'tknowanymore,Iwasvery27 troubledbythat.28

29 Q. Allright. Iunderstand. Itwasn'tpersonal,just30 therole?31 A. No,Ididn'tknowhimatall.32

33 Q. Thankyouforclarifying. Canwecomebacknowto34 DavidKramerandlateroninyourstatementyousaidyou35 wantedtorefertohimasRabbiKramer?36 A. Yes.37

38 Q. WhatdidyouwanttotelltheCommissionaboutthat?39 A. Well,becausethishasbeenpartofthe whenthings40 havecomeouthesuddenlybecomesunrabbiedandthisis41 somethingallovertheworld. ShouldIlookonlyatyou42 or 43

44 Q. No,feelfree.45 A. Itisveryimportanttounderstandthatinthe46 Yeshivahitselfandeverywherejustaboutintheworldthey47 trytoafterwards suddenlyarabbiisnotarabbiand


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1 theywillfindatechnicalreasonwhyhedidn'tpracticeas2 arabbi. Buthewasarabbi. He'scalledrabbi. Hewas3 knownasrabbiatschoolandit'sabsolutelywidespread.4 HewasknownasRabbiKramer. Hehadordination. He

5 wasn'tpractisingasarabbiandthereareplentyofpeople6 likethat. Butforallnormalconnotationsit'sjust7 tryingtogiveasnowjobonpeopletonotcallhimrabbi,8 andit'sparticular. It'snotanomission,it'svery

9 particular. It'sallpartofthisthing,inmyopinion,of10 denyingliability,whitewashing. "It'snotus. It's11 somebodyelse. He'snotarabbiandhe'snotthis. It's12 somebodyelse." It'snot,"Wewouldneverdothistypeof13 thingandwedon'tallowit." Andit'sjustincorrect.14

15 Q. Socertainlyatthetimeyoutaughtyourchildren,you16 andyourchildrenasfarasyouareawarealwaysreferred

17

to

him

as

Rabbi

Kramer?18 A. Yes. Wewerepersonalfriends,sowewouldhave

19 calledhimDavidaswell. Buteverybodyreferred hewas20 knownasRabbiKramer.21

22 Q. Ithinkyougointothatlateroninyourstatementas23 partofthesurpriseforyouinthedisclosuresbecauseat24 thetimeRabbiKramerwasyourfriend?25 A. Correct.26

27 Q. Andyouhadalottodowithhisfamily?28

A.

Mmm

hmm.

29

30 Q. IncludingcelebratingtheSabbath?31 A. Mmmhmm. Theywerebothfromoutoftown. Hiswife32 wasIsraeli,aswasmywife. Hewasn'taclosepersonal33 friendofminebecausehewasmuchyoungerthanme. Butwe34 werefamilyfriendsandthefamilieshadafewkidsofthe35 sameage. AsI'msaying,itwasparticularlyfromthe36 wivesandthefactthattheywerestrangersfromoutof37 townaswell. Theyhadonlyrecentlycome.38

39 Q. IfIcanaskyounowtogobacktoyourstatementand40 readusthatpartofyourstatementthatdealswiththe41 disclosurebyyourchildrenoftheabusebyRabbiKramer?42 A. OnFridaynightin1993Ioverheardtwoofmysons43 arguing. Iaskedthem,"Whatareyoufightingabout?" The44 elderofthetwoothersonssaidtomethatmyyoungerson45 "issayingthatRabbiKramertouchedhim". Kramerwasa46 teacheratYeshivahCollege,Melbourne. Atthistimemy47 sonswereagedapproximatelyeightyearsandnineyears


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1 old. Thisargumentoccurredasthefamilywereaboutto2 sitdownforourSabbathmeal. Iwasinastateofshock.3 Wedidnotdiscussthedisclosureoftheabuseanyfurther

4 atthistime. Kramerwaslovedandrespectedbyall5 membersofthecommunity. Hewasprobablythemostpopular

6 teacherintheschoolatthetime. Kramer'swifewasfrom7 Israel,asismywife,andourfamilywerequitecloseto

8 hisfamily. Kramerandhisfamilywouldvisitmyhomemany9 timesforSabbath,festivalmeals,etcetera. The

10 closenessofthefamiliesmadethisdisclosureallthemore11 shocking. Keepgoing?12

13 Q. Keepgoing,please,nextparagraph?14 A. Ilaterfoundoutafewweekspriortomyson's15 disclosuretomethathehadmadethesamedisclosuretomy16 wife. Mywifetoldmethis,butsaidthatthe"wordswent

17

in

one

ear

and

out

the

other"

because

it

seemed

so

odd

and18 sounusualtousatthetime.

19

20 Q. Thatmusthavebeenindeed,MrWaks,somevery21 difficultinformationforyoutoprocessatthetime,to22 haveyourchildtellyousomethingaboutsomeonewhoyou23 knewandrespected?24 A. Yes,well,whenIsayastateofshock,itwasshock25 notinthewaythatIwasshockedtohearthatthishad26 happened. Itwasshockalmost justshockof thefirst27 thing,IthinkIsayitlatersomewhere,aboutnotreally28

knowing

whether

to

believe

it

and

the

first

advice

we

29 soughtwaswhethertobelieveiteven,becauseitwasjust30 sounbelievable. Thatwastheshock. Notshockthatthis31 couldhavehappened;wedidn'tgettothatyet.32

33 Q. Itwastheshockofcoulditevenbetruethat 34 A. Yes,itwasmorejustshockthattheyweresayingthis35 andcoulditbetrue,butnotatthedepthof"thishas36 happened,howshocking,"notatthatlevel.37

38

Q.

I

think

you

go

on

now

in

your

statement

to

talk

about39 whatyoudidinresponsetothatinformation. CouldIask

40 youtotelltheCommission,please,readingyourstatement41 fromparagraph13andIwillstopyouataconvenienttime?42 A. Okay. OnSundaymorningIspoketotheschool43 principalofYeshivahCollegeatthetime,RabbiAbraham44 Glick,RabbiGlick. Itoldhimwhatmysonshadsaid.45 IcannotrecallexactlywhatIsaidtoRabbiGlick.46 IrecallhavingconcernsastowhetherI,oranyoneelse,47 wouldbelievemysons'account. RabbiGlicktoldmethat


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1 hewouldspeaktoKramer. Afewhourslater,RabbiGlick2 toldmethatKramerhadpartlyadmittedtowhathad3 happened. Thisadmissionwasahugeshocktome,

4 especiallygivenmyinitialconcernsastowhetherIor5 anyoneelsebelievedmysons'account.6

7 ThefollowingdayontheMondayInoticedthatKramer8 wasstillteachingattheschool. IconfrontedRabbiGlick9 andsaidtohim,"What'sgoingon? Howisitpossiblethat

10 he'sstillhere?" ShouldIcommentorjustread?11

12 Q. Yes,ifyoufeeltheneedtocomment.13 A. InthepreviousparagraphIshouldcomment,whenIsay14 ifanyonebelieved,ontheSaturdaynightwewerestillin15 thisstateofshockwhethertobelieve. Ispoketotwo16 verygoodfriendswhethertobelieveornot,psychologists.

17

They

said,

"Look,

we

don't

know

either,

but

you

should18 definitelyspeaktoRabbiGlickaboutit." Becausethe

19 questionwasevenwhethertodoanything. Anyway,they20 said,"Yes,itmaybetrue." Thatwasthat. Thenextone21 iswhenIsay,"Howisitpossiblethatheisstillhere,"22 sothatnooneshouldgettheimplicationthatIsaid"Why23 didn'tyousendhimaway?" No,Ijustmeant"Whyishe24 stillteachingattheschoolafteryouknowthis?" So25 IsaidRabbiGlickrespondedwithwordstotheeffectthat,26 "ThepsychiatristhasconcludedthatKramerallowedhimself27 tobecaughtbecausehewantedtobestopped. Thereis28

danger

of

self

harm.

So

we

can't

fire

him."

29

30 Ithoughtthiswasabsolutelyoutrageous. However,if31 Ireportedmatterstothepolice,Iwouldbeinbreachof32 theJewishprinciplemesirah. Ishouldagainpointout33 herethatitwasn'tthatIthought,"Iwanttoreportitto34 thepolicebutIcan'tbecauseit'smesirah." Thiswasthe35 reason;mesirahandthewholecommunityculturewasthe36 reason,notthatIsaid,"I'mgoingtoreportittothe37 police." Itdidn'tevengettothat. OfcourseIknew

38

that

a

crime

had

been

committed

here,

but

you

just

didn't39 gettothatstage. Iknowitishardforpeopleto

40 comprehendthis.41

42 Q. MaybeIcanexplorethatwithyou. Whenyousay"it's43 hardtocomprehend",isitthattheexpectationwasatthat44 timethatitwouldbedealtwith,ifitcouldbe,within45 thecommunity;isthatwhatyoumean?46 A. That'sputtingapositivespinonit. Iwouldsay47 justdoinganythingaboutitourselveswasanono. What's


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1 goingtobedoneisaseparatematter.2

3 Q. Whenyousay"doinganythingaboutit"yourself4 personally,doyoumeanthatyouneededsomekindof

5 permissiontodothatorthatyoufeltthatyouwouldneed6 toinvolvetherabbisbeforedecidingwhattodo?

7 A. Yes,yes,yes,theywouldhavetobetotallyinvolved.8 Itwasn'tjustamatterof,"Iwanttogotothepolice.9 Iwillgoandgetpermission." No. Itwouldhavetobe

10 somethingthat'sreallyagreedtobyeverybody.11

12 Q. Beforewegototheconceptofmesirah,soIcan13 understandthat,Ithinkwehavealreadyheardyour14 evidencethatatthistimeyouconsideredyourselfpartof15 perhapsthehardcoreormorestrictlyadherentwithinthe16 Orthodoxfaith. Andwehaveheardsomethatwouldmean

17

taking

direction

from

a

rabbi

on

lots

of

the

life

decisions18 thattheymadeonaneverydaybasis;"Whatschool? What

19 shouldIdo? WhoshouldImarry? WhatshouldIdowithmy20 work?" Wouldyouputyourselfinthatcategoryatthe21 time?22 A. 100percent. Again,toseparateouttwothings,the23 Hasidicmovementalsohas there'sthenormalconceptof24 Jewishlawwhereyouareaskingarabbiforalegalopinion25 aboutthings;daytodaythingsifyoudon'tknowthem26 yourself. Ifyouknowwhatthelawisaboutsomethingyou27 don'task. But,ifitissomethingthatyoudon'tknowor28

there

may

be

ambiguity,

you

ask.

Then

there's

a

separate

29 conceptamongHasidimofaRebbe. Itsoundsthesamebut30 it'snot. Rebbe. That'sthespiritualleaderofthewhole31 movementwhoispurportedtohavespecialspiritualpowers.32 Thereyouwillbeaskingmajorlifedecisions,before33 gettingmarried,even,"ShallIgooutwiththisperson?"34 Sorry?35

36 Q. Goon,please?37 A. "Thedoctor'srecommendedmetodothisoperation.

38

Should

I

do

it?"

Et

cetera.

Every

sort

of

major

decision39 inlife. Anything. Everything. Mywifeoncehadalittle

40 growthonherfinger,andthedoctorwantedtodoabiopsy.41 Sowewroteinforthat. That'salreadyamedical42 procedure,notjustgoingandseeingthedoctor. Wedidn't43 getananswer. Icheckedacoupleoftimestoseeifwe44 hadgotananswer. Therewasnoanswer. Sowedidn'tgo45 ahead. Thedoctorwasfurious. Hehadalreadybookeda46 room. Wedidn'tgoaheadanddoabiopsy. ThankGodthat47 was30yearsago. She'sfine. Butitwasdowntothat


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1 level.2

3 Q. WereyoureferringtheretotheLubavitchRebbe?4 A. Correct.5

6 Q. Wasitcommonthenforpeopleinadditiontoseeking,7 say,arabbi'sinterpretationofthelaw,Jewishlaw,to8 lookspecificallytotheLubavitchRebbeforguidancein

9 allofthosedaytodaydecisions?10 A. Again,it'snotthedaytodayones. Therearesome11 fanaticalpeoplethatmightdoiton weusedtoalmost12 jokeaboutit,thelevelsofwhatthey beforetheywent13 tothetoilettheywouldaskhim. ButI'mnottalking14 aboutthem. ThetypeofthingsI'msaying,beforeyougot15 anewbusiness,beforeyoumovedcountriescertainly.16 BeforewemovedbacktoAustraliaIaskedmanytimeswe

17

didn't

move

back

without

getting

actual

permission

and18 blessingtocomebacktoAustralia. Itriedformany

19 years. Allmajordecisionsoflife.20

21 Q. AndthereforeIassumethenthattheLubavitchRebbe22 hadagreatcapacitytoinfluencewhatwashappeningwithin23 thecommunity,firstlyhimselfthroughhislifetime?24 A. Yes.25

26 Q. And,secondly,mayIaskwasthereaparticular27 respectpaidtoemissarieswhohadbeenchosenbytheRebbe28

to

be

sent

to

the

community?

29 A. Yes,theywouldbe becausethere'saconceptin30 Jewishlawthatanemissaryisconsideredasthesender31 themselves,andthatwasverymuchstressed. Itbecamea32 problemsometimesifonedidn'treallyregardtheemissary33 asbeingonthesamelevelasthesender. Butthatwasthe34 game.35

36 Q. Andsowastheroleoftheemissarythentostandin37 theplaceoftheLubavitchRebbewithintheterritoryin

38

the

Chabad

community?

39 A. Yes,butagainitwouldn'tbeatthelevel you40 wouldn'tbegoingaskingtheemissarythesetypesof41 questions. ThatwouldbepurelyjustfortheRebbe42 himself,eveninpersonifyoulivedinAmericaorfrom43 hereitwouldbefaxorbytelephone. Itwasavery44 regularoccurrence. Youhavetounderstanditmeansall45 thesepeopleallovertheworld,tensofthousandsof46 people,askingallthesetypesofquestionseveryday.47


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1 Q. WehaveseensomeevidencethatsuggestsRabbiGroner2 wastheemissarysentbytheRebbetoMelbourne?

3 A. Yes,that'saveryinterestingthingand,without4 goingintointernalpolitics,thereissomedisagreement5 aboutexactlyhowthathappenedinthisparticularcase.6 RabbiGronerwasavery hewasverydeterminedtobethe

7 emissaryandIcan'tvouchforexactlythewayitwas. But8 heoriginallycametoAustralianotastheemissary. He

9 cameinadifferentcapacityaltogether. Hewas10 apparentlyheadmasteroftheschoolorsomethinglikethat.11 Thereissomecontentionastowhathappened,howhegotto12 beinchargeofthewholething.13

14 Q. Soinorderfortheretobecontention,therewasat15 leastapremisethathewasinfacttheemissary,although16 somepeopletooksomeissuewiththat;doIunderstandthat

17

evidence?18 A. Whenyousayapremise,atonestageitmorphed

19 whateveritwasmorphedintotheactuality.20

21 Q. Andtheactualitybeingthathewastheemissaryof22 theRebbeforMelbourne?23 A. Yes,atsomestagehedefinitelydidbecomethe24 emissary,yes.25

26 Q. Thesemajorlifedecisions,aftertheLubavitch27 Rebbe'spassing,whohadresponsibilitythenforproviding28

the

counsel

in

relation

to

these

major

life

decisions?

29 A. Thisisveryembarrassingforme. Essentiallyit30 brokeintotwocamps:thosethatsaidtheRebbeisno31 longerhereandthenIdon'tknowwhatalotofthose32 peoplewoulddo,andsomepeoplewentalongwiththeidea33 thathe'sreallystillaround,totally,andbyopening34 booksofhisyouwillgetanswers,especiallymanybooks35 werepublishedwithlettersofhis. So,theideawasthat36 youwouldopenabookandgetananswertoexactlyyour37 question. Peopleeventookittotheextenttheywould

38

say,

"The

Rebbe

told

me

to

do

this,"

and

I

would

have

to39 checksometimesifthepersonwasacertainagegroup,

40 whethertheyhadactuallybeenaroundwhentheRebbewas41 thereandtheRebbetoldthemtodothisoriftheyare42 sayingitbecausetheyopenedabookandtheyperceivedan43 answerthereontheirown. Butthere'sanabsolute 44 there'sabitofadichotomyastowhat'sgoingon.45

46 Q. CanIcomebacknowto 47 A. Thereisnophysicalperson,though,thatyougoto


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1 anymore. That'sarealproblem. Thereisnoleadership2 inthatrespect.3

4 Q. CanIcomebacktomesirah,butjustsaybeforeIask5 youtoreadonaboutthat,atleastatthetime,onceyour6 sonshadspokentoyou,youhadspokentoyourwife,you

7 thenspoketoapsychologistwhosaid,"Youshoulddo8 something,atleastspeaktoRabbiGlick,"andthenyou

9 spoketoRabbiGlickandhetoldyouthathewouldspeakto10 Kramerandhedoesthatandcomesback?11 A. Mmmhmm.12

13 Q. Atleastatthatstageyoufeelthatsomethingshould14 bedone,buteventhenfromyourownperspectiveisyour15 evidencethattherewasnorealabilityforyoutohave16 decidedyourselfjustthereandthentogoofftothe

17

police?18 A. Yes. Whenyousaynoability,Imeanitwasataboo,

19 likeincestoranythinglikethat. Itwasthatbiga20 taboo.21

22 Q. Canyoupleasegoonandreadforusalittlebitmore23 abouthowyoudescribemesirahandyourunderstanding?24 A. MesirahisaJewishprinciplewhichstatesthatone25 Jewishpersoncannotreportontheconductofanother26 JewishpersontononJewishauthorities. Ifyouwantto27 approachnonJewishauthoritiesorgotoanonJewish28

court,

you

need

to

receive

permission

from

your

rabbi.

29 Fromarabbi,reallyitshouldbe.30

31 Myunderstandingisthathistoricallymesirahapplied32 toavoidpersecutionofJewishpeopleatatimewhenJewish33 peoplewerenotaffordedafairtrial. Itisbasedonthe34 beliefthatbringingthe"dirtylinen"ofJewishpeopleto35 thebroadersocietywouldjustifyantiSemitismandbring36 shameandgriefontheJewishcommunity.37

38

A

person

who

breaches

mesirah

is

considered

an

39 informer,calledamoserorrodef. Amoserisstrictlythe40 personthat'sdoingmesirah. Arodefisevenmoregeneral.41 Rodefmeanssomeonewhoisliterallychasingaftersomeone.42 Sosomeoneischasingafteryoutokillyou,heiscalleda43 rodef. Chasingiswhatitmeans. Soamoserisconsidered44 apersonthat'schasingyoutokillyou. Now,onthis45 secondterm,soamoserisarodef. Rodefisamore46 generalterm. Infact,arodef,initsmostextremeform47 Jewishlawsanctionsthevigilantekillingofapersonwho


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1 breachesmesirah. Notjustmesirah,anyrodef. Thatmeans2 justbecauseapersonisdoingmesirahasifheischasing

3 afteryou,andanyonethat'schasingafteryoutokillyou,4 youcankillhim. Attheveryleast,thebreachofmesirah5 almostalwaysleadstoshunningandintimidationwithinthe6 Jewishcommunityandwouldalmostcertainlydamagethe7 marriageprospectsofyourchildrenasmarriageswithinthe8 Chabadcommunitywere,atleastthen,almostalways

9 arranged. Disapprovalofafamilybythecommunitywould10 havedireconsequencesforthemarriageprospectsofthe11 children.12

13 Soagaintomakeitclear,becauseithasthis14 backgroundofvigilantekillingevenifsomeoneisan15 rodef,evenifitisnotbeingclaimedthatthat Imyself16 wasnotinfearofthat,butthestigmaattachedtoitand

17

the

approbation

and

everything

attached

to

that

remains18 today. That'sveryimportanttounderstand.

19

20 Q. CanIaskyouthis,then. Labellingsomeoneamoser21 isnotsomethingdonelightly?22 A. No,ingeneral. Whenitisdoneseriously,no. It's23 very,veryserious. It'smorethancallingthemaratbag24 oraBoranothertypeofBoranfingB. It'sworsethan25 anyofthosethings.26

27 Q. Ifacommunitycametoviewsomeoneasamoser,was28

your

understanding

that

that

would

lead

to

community

29 ostracisation?30 A. Yes.31

32 Q. Aninabilityordifficultyingettingyourchildren33 married?34 A. Everything.35

36 Q. Affectingyourwork?37 A. Everything.38

39 Q. Affectingyourrelationshipswithotherpeoplewithin40 thecommunity?41 A. Everything.42

43 Q. CanIaskyoutoreadonfromparagraph19,please?44 A. ItwasunderstoodatthetimethatRabbiGroner,45 YeshivahandChabadingeneralwereallagainstreporting46 tothepolice. IshouldsayultraOrthodoxherein47 general,notjustChabad. MuchlaterIwasinformedbya


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1 friend,MosheNeubauer,thatRabbiGronerhadannounced2 thatnoonewaseventotalkaboutwhathadhappened.

3

4 Q. WithKramer?5 A. Yes. OnthatsamedayanotherparentandI sothis6 isthatMonday decidedtoholdameetingwithother7 parentsofchildrenwhowerecurrentstudentsofKramer.8 Wearrangedforthemeetingtobeheldatapproximately9 7pmatmyhouse. Wedividedthelistofparentsinhalf

10 andtelephonedapproximately15to20peopleintotal. The11 purposeofthemeetingwastodiscusswhetherthepolice12 weretobeinvolved. Weweregoingtodiscussputtingto13 theleadersoftheYeshivahCentrethatalltheparents14 wouldgotothepoliceenmasseifKramerwasnotfired.15

16 Soitwasn'ttosaywhetherthepoliceshouldbeinvolved.

17

It

was

to

say

en

masse,

decide

if

they

don't

fire

Kramer

we18 aregoingtogotothepolice. Thatwasthedecision.

19

20 Q. Atthistimewastheregeneralconcernbytheparents21 aboutthefactthatKramerwasstillteaching,obviously?22 A. Yes,that'swhytheywereallgoingto that'showwe23 gotthemeetinggoingandthat'swhatmadetheotherperson24 willingtocooperateandeverything,assaidlater. He25 deniesitnow. Butthat'swhythewholethinggotgoing.26 Everybodywasabitoutragedaboutit.27

28

Q.

All

right.

When

you

say

everyone,

how

did

they

come

29 toknow? Twoofyoursonshadtoldyouaboutwhathad30 occurred. Didyoucometoknowaboutothercomplaints31 against 32 A. Iimmediatelyheard,probablyonthatsameSunday33 Iheardaboutotherthings,anditgotoutimmediately34 becausehehadadmittedit,sotherewasnomoreany35 problemofallegationsoranything. Sothewordhadgot36 outprettyquickly,eventhoughmanypeopledidn'tbelieve37 it,evenafterhehadalreadyadmittedit. Irememberone

38

particular

person

I

went

to

in

the

learning

place

and39 Itoldhim,youknow,"KramerhasjustadmittedtoRabbi

40 Glick." TheguythoughtIwasmakingitup."It'snot41 possible. You'relying." Butitwasknownalreadyonthe42 Sunday. Sootherpeoplewouldhaveheardandthenmight43 haveaskedthekids. Idon'tknowhowitcameabout,but44 parentsstartedtoknow.45

46 Q. Yousayyoudon'tknowhowitcameaboutthatpeople47 cametoknowabouttheadmissions?


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1 A. About youmeanabouttheirownkids? Theymight2 havejustthought wemighthavejustsaid"There'smore3 kids,weknowaboutmorekids." Maybeeveryonethathada4 kidintheclassaskedtheirkids. Idon'tknowhowit5 camethattheseparentswereprepared,ifitwasbecause6 theyknewfromtheirownkidsorjustbecausetheyhadkids7 intheclassandtheysuspectedtheremaybeaproblem.8 Idon'trememberthatdetail.9

10 Q. Justbeforeyougoonfromthere,canIaskforthe11 documentattab208,OPP.3016.002.0105_ERtobebroughtup.12 Imightaskyouthis. DoyouknowapersoncalledRamon13 Lewis?14 A. Yes.15

16 Q. Haveyoueverseenthisdocumentbefore?

17

A.

No.

18

19 Q. PerhapsIwilljustreadthistoyou,MrWaks. This20 wasastatementpreparedbyProfessorLewisforthepolice21 intheinvestigationofRabbiDavidKramer:22

23 In1992,althoughIcannotrecalltheexact24 date,Iwasaskedbyamemberofthe25 YeshivahCentretospeaktoRabbiKramerin26 ordertodetermineifhehadacted27 inappropriatelytowardssomeofthe28

children.

This

was

because

theperson

who

29 askedmetointerviewRabbiKramerwas30 tryingtoascertainifhehadsexually31 molestedanyoftheboys. Iwasaskedto32 dothisbecauseofmyinvolvementwiththe33 centreinthepast. Mybackgroundisin34 educationalpsychologyandIhadtrained35 someoftheirteachersandworkedwiththe36 Yeshivahschoolinothercapacities. This37 iswhyIwasaskedatthetime. Ican't

38

recall

the

person

that

asked

me.39

40 IwenttoRabbiKramer'shometheevening41 afterbeingbriefed. RabbiKramerlivedin42 anapartmentbuildingoppositetheYeshivah43 CollegeinHothamStreet,EastStKilda.44 Hisapartmentwas[redacted]. Ibelieveit45 was[redacted]. WhenIgotthereIwent46 insideandspokewithRabbiKramerinthe47 loungeroom. Ibelievethathiswifewas


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1 intheapartmentatthetimebutwasnot2 presentIspoketohim. Theconversation3 startedbymetellinghimwhyIwasthere

4 andIaskedhimifhehadanysexual5 involvementwithanyoftheboys. Rabbi6 Krameradmittedtomethathehadtouched7 theboysbuthewasquiteclearthatthe

8 boyshadinitiatedthetouchingandthatno9 harmwasdone. Heindicatedabeliefthat

10 theboyshadenjoyedit. Thetoneofhis11 admissionswerequitedisturbingtomeas12 Icouldseethattherewasnocontrition.13

14 WhenRabbiKramerstatedthathehad15 touchedtheboys,hedidn'tmentionthe16 numberofboyshetouchedbutIfeltlike

17

he

was

describing

a

number

of

boys

that

he18 hadtouched.

19

20 Iwentbacktothepersonwhoaskedmeto21 conducttheinterviewandtoldthemwhat22 wassaidbyKramertome.23

24 Wewillleavethat. Thatinfactseemstocorroborateina25 sensewhatyousayRabbiGlicktoldyou?26 A. Exactly.27

28

Q.

That

he

would

speak

to

Rabbi

Kramer

and

then

at

some

29 stagehecamebacktoyouandsaidthatKramerhadmade30 someadmissions?31 A. Heevenactuallyalsomentionedtomethat,"Kramer32 hadtoldme,like,itwasonlyabouthalfthepeopleand33 onlyabitofthingsandthattheboyshadinitiatedit."34 Heactuallytoldmethat. Glicktoldmethataswell.35

36 Q. AndthisconversationthatyouhadwithRabbiGlick37 wherehemadethoseadmissionswasontheSundaybeforethe

38

following

day

when

you

noticed

Rabbi

Kramer

still

at

the

39 school?40 A. Yes.41

42 Q. Andthatwasinresponsetotheadmissionandthen43 goingtotheschoolthenextdayandseeingRabbiKramer44 therethatledyoutospeaktoRabbiGlickandsay,"What's45 goingon? Howisitpossiblehe'sstillhere?"?46 A. Yes.47


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1 Q. Andhetoldyousomethingtotheeffectthattherewas2 someconcernaboutselfharm?3 A. Itwasthosewords. Theyhadbeentoldbya

4 particularpsychiatrist,whoIknowwhoitis. Ithinkhe5 hassincedeniedit,butanyway.6

7 Q. Allright. IfIcantakeyoubacktoyourstatement,8 please. Youwereabouttoreadthataspectofyour

9 evidenceyousayoccurredinthemeeting. DoIunderstand10 ittobethatitwasunacceptabletoyou,followingthose11 admissionsandthefactofthecomplaints,thatRabbi12 KramerwasstillattheschoolontheMondaywhenyouwent13 toseehimandthatalsoitwasalsounacceptablethat14 RabbiGlickdidnotappeartobepreparedtodoanything15 aboutit?16 A. Correct.

17

18 Q. Wasthatwhatledtothismeetingwiththechildren?19 A. Correct.20

21 Q. Ortheparents?22 A. Correct. Thespecificreasonofthemeeting,itwas23 to again,wewenttothisridiculousextremebecauseof24 theproblemofbeingworriedwhatwillhappen. Twopeople25 wereinvolvedinevencallingthemeetingandthenthe26 meetingwascalled,theexpresspurposewouldbethatwe27 woulddecidetothreatentogotothepoliceiftheydidn't28

get

rid

of

him.

That

was

all.

29

30 Q. Wasitthesensethatyoufeltthatifitwasa31 communaldecisionnoonepersoncouldbeblamed?32 A. Couldn'tbepickedoff,that'sright,ortherewould33 bemuchlesschance. Therewouldbesomanypeopleit34 wouldbealreadyproblematicalanditwouldbeknown,35 etcetera,etcetera.36

37 Q. CanIaskyoutoread,andIthinkyouwereaboutto

38

say

that,

actually.

"I

believe

that

if

we

made

the

39 decisionasagroup" Idon'tknowifyoureadit,butif40 youcanreaditfromthere?41 A. Ibelievethatifwemadethedecisionasagroup,no42 oneindividualwouldbeblamedforbreachingtheprinciple43 ofmesirah. Notjustmesirah,reallyit'swiderthanthat44 again;goingagainstthistaboo,whichincludedmesirah,45 obviously.46

47 Q. Butthetabooofgoingtothepoliceortaking


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1 somethingoutsidethecommunity?2 A. Yes,yes,goingtothepolice. Theparentwhohelped3 mearrangethemeetinghassincedeniedhisinvolvement.

4

5 Q. Keepreading.6 A. Shortlybeforethecommencementofthemeetingatmy

7 homeIreceivedatelephonecallfromHershCooper,Cooper,8 whowasaseniorlawyerandchairmanoftheBoardof9 ManagementoftheYeshivahCentreatthetime. Coopersaid

10 wordstotheeffect,"He'sbeenfired. Calloffthe11 meeting." IcannotnowrecallhowCooperknewofthe12 meeting. IbelieveCoopermadethistelephonecallto13 avoidmattersspreadingwithintheYeshivahcommunity,and14 tostopusreportingtothepolice. Afterthetelephone15 callendedwithCooper,Iimmediatelycalledallthe16 parentsandinformedthemthatthemeetinghadbeen

17

cancelled.

We

did

not

make

a

police

complaint

at

this18 time. IdidnottellRabbiGlickaboutmyconversation

19 withCooper. BecauseGlickalreadywasn'tinvolvedinthis20 wholeproceeding. Imean,Ihadgivenuponhim,soIhad21 noreasontoringhim.22

23 Q. AndHarryCooperwaswellknowntoyouatthetime?24 A. Yes.25

26 Q. Anddoyousayoneoftheparentswhowasinvolvedin27 this,inarrangingthismeeting,hassincedeniedhis28

involvement?

29 A. Yes.30

31 Q. Withoutnamingthatperson,didtheytellyou 32 A. Theydidn'tspeaktome. Theydenieditobviouslyto33 thepolice.34

35 Q. Someoneelse. Allrightthen. CanIjustaskyouto36 holdforonesecondbeforewemoveonfromthere.37 A. I'mnotgoingtodoit,butit'sjustashamethatthe

38

person

can't

be

named,

is

all

I

can

say.

39

40 Q. Justreadonforme?41 A. Sorry?42

43 Q. Justreadon?44 A. That's22. InowfeltthatIhadablackmarkagainst45 mynamewithintheYeshivahcommunityfororganisingthe46 meetingatmyhouse,andbeingtheinstigatorofthe47 possibilityofinvolvingthepolice.


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1

2 AttheendofthatsameweekInoticedthatKramerwas3 absentfromsynagogue. Kramerwasalsoabsentfrom

4 Sabbath,whichwasmostunusual. Itwascommonknowledge5 atthistimethattheYeshivahCentrepaidforMrKramerto

6 leaveAustralia,orRabbiKramer,andtraveltoIsrael.7 Thatwasthenextweek. ThefirstSabbathwenoticedhe

8 wasgone,notaround,butitwasonlythenextweekthatwe9 foundoutthathewasactuallyoutofAustralia.

10

11 Uponbeinginformedofthis,whenIheardthathehad12 actuallygone,IapproachedMrShmuelGurewicsz,whowasa13 goodfriendandtheprincipalofBethRivkahCollege14 Melbourneatthetime. BethRivkahistheJewishday15 schoolforgirlsrunbytheYeshivahCentreandisthe16 schoolmydaughtersattended. IsaidtoGurewicsz,"What's

17

going

to

happen?

He's

going

to

offend

in

Israel."18 Gurewicszrespondedwithwordstothefollowingeffect:

19 "No,no,no. Don'tworryaboutit. I'mlookingafterit.20 RabbiGronerhasmademeresponsibletolookafterit21 overseas,tomakesurethateverybodyknowsaboutitandhe22 won'toffendanymoreandwe'regoingtogethimtreatment23 andeverythinglikethat."24

25 ApproximatelysixmonthslaterIspoketoGurewicsz26 again. Irecallhesaidwordstotheeffect,"Kramer's27 beentoapsychologistandhe'sfinishedtreatment." Iwas28

doubtful

that

this

had

occurred.

The

reason

in

particular

29 Iwasdoubtful,Ihaddonealittlebitofresearchafter30 allthiscameoutandIsawsuccessratesoftreatmentand31 recidivismandeverythingandIwasextremelydoubtfulon32 thebalanceofprobabilitiesthatthiswastrue.33

34 IremainedconcernedthatKramercontinuedtoposea35 dangertothecommunity. Threetofouryearslater36 IvisitedIsraelandinquiredaboutKramer. Ispoketo37 peoplewholivedinthecitywhereKramerresidedand

38

eventually

received

his

contact

details.

I

telephoned39 Kramerandexpressedmyconcernthathecontinuedtoposea

40 risktothecommunityandIwantedtoconfirmthathehad41 infactreceivedtreatment. Ireceivedpermissionfromhim42 tospeaktohispsychologistinIsrael,andhesaidhe43 wouldactuallyspeaktothepsychologistandlethimknow44 thatIwasgoingtoringhimandhegavemehisnumberand45 everything. HesaiditwasAharonRabinowicz.46 ItelephonedRabinowiczandheinitiallydidnotwantto47 speaktome. Eventhoughheknewthathehadbeen


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1 contactedbyKramer,hestilldidn'twanttotalktome.2 Isaidwordstotheeffect,"Justanswermeonethingthen.3 Kramerhastoldmehe'sfinishedacourseoftreatmentwith

4 you. Isthattrue?" Rabinowiczlaughedandsaid,"Heran5 outofmoney." Apparentlyheonlyhadafewsessions.6 Like,itwasjustacompletejoke. Continue?7

8 Q. No,juststopthereforasecond. Iwilltakeyouto9 theconvictionofKramer. Oneofthethingsyousaidthere

10 inyourevidenceisthatyouasoneoftheparentswanted11 Krameroutoftheschool?12 A. Mmmhmm.13

14 Q. Whatdoyousaytoanysuggestionthatyouhad15 suggestedthathebesentawayorsentoverseas?16 A. Alie. Acompletelie,andnooneeverthoughtabout

17

it

at

the

time.

We

were

all

shocked

when

we

found

he

had18 goneoutofthecountry. Whatdidwethinkwasgoingto

19 happen? Wedidn'tthink. It'sridiculous. Didwethink20 theyweregoingtogotothepolice? Weprobablythought21 no. Idon'tknow;wedidn'tthink. ButIknowwewereall22 shockedandI'mfriendlywithaguywhosefatherownedthe23 apartmenthewaslivingin. Hedidn'ttellmeatthetime24 buthetoldmelaterthathehimselfwasshocked. Noone25 knew. Noonewasexpectingit. Noone. Hewentandtold26 hisfatherinlawontheThursdayorsomethinglikethat,27 "Guesswhat? Yourguy'sgone." Andtheguythatownedthe28

property

couldn't

believe

it

and

he

was

worried

what's

29 happenedtohistenant. Hetoldmethatthe30 fatherinlawspoketoRabbiGronerandRabbiGronertoldhim,"Don't31 worry,we'regoingtolookafterpayingforthe,youknow,32 thefactthatyoudon'thaveatenantnow. Wewilllook33 afterit."34

35 Q. ButthelandlordtoldyouthatRabbiGronerhadsaidto36 him

37

A.

The

son

in

law

of

the

landlord

told

me

that

he

rang38 RabbiGronerbecausehewasworriedtheguyhadsuddenly

39 disappeared. Sothefatherinlaw,worriedaboutnot40 havinghistenantnow. Idon'tknowifthefatherinlaw41 knewwhatthewholestorywas,buthistenanthasgoneand42 heringsRabbiGronerandsays,"Don'tworry,we'lllookafter43 payingwhateverwehavetopaybecausehehasdisappeared44 withoutbeingnotified." I'mbringingthisuptoshow45 nobodyknewhewasgone. Wesawhewasn'tinsynagogue.46 Wethoughtthatwasprobablybecausehewasembarrassedor47 somethinglikethat,butwedidnotknowhehadgone


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1 overseas. ThesuggestionthatIsaidthatisjustabsurd,2 especiallywhenyoulookthatafterwardswhatIdid3 physically,"Hey,he'sgoneoverseas. What'sgoingto4 happen?" Itjustdoesn'taddup. Iwastheonlypersonas5 farasIknowthatdidanything. SothatIwouldhave6 exactlybeenthatpersonwhichiswhat'sbeingclaimedby7 somepeopleispurelymalicious.8

9 Q. Youweretold,though,thatsomethingwouldbetaken10 careof,thatsomeonewasgoingtospeaktosomeone11 overseasor 12 A. Yes,Gurewicszwasgoingtodoitbecausehe'dlived13 inIsrael,hiswifeisIsraeli. HewasseniorinChabad,a14 wellknownfigure. Principaloftheschool. Hewouldbe15 theperfectpersontodoit,that'scorrect.16

17

Q.

I'm

going

to

ask,

please,

if

document

78

of

the18 proposedtenderbundlecouldbebroughtup. Itisdocument

19 OPP.3016.002. ItisastatementofHarryCoopermadeto20 thepoliceintheinvestigation. Haveyouseenthis21 statementbefore?22 A. No. Whenwasthismade?23

24 Q. It'sdated1December2011?25 A. Sothiswasmadeaftertheinvestigationstartednow,26 notthen.27

28

Q.

Yes.

Not

then,

no.

I

just

wanted

to

read

part

of

the

29 statementtoyouandthenaskyousomequestions:30

31 AtthetimeKramerwasteachingatthe32 school 33

34 ThisisastatementmadeinrelationtoDavidKramer:35

36 Iwasamemberandexecutiveofthe37 YeshivahCollegeanditsunofficial38 chairman.39

40 A. "Unofficial". Imean,whatIjoke.41

42 Q. MrWaks,isthisHarryCooperthepersonyouhave43 referredtoinyourstatementasHershCooper?44 A. Yes.45

46 Q. Doyoubelievethisisthesameperson?47 A. Itis,yes.


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35 understandingofthiswasthatitrelated

36

toinappropriate sexual behaviour. Neither

37

the parents,nor Rabbi Groner, ever

38

specifically

spelt out the particulars of

39

the allegedmisbehaviour.

40

41 Imetwiththree of the parents I met

42

withZephaniah Waks and [two other persons

43

who havebeenredacted]. They were very,

44

veryirate. They accused Kramer of sexual

45

molestationo the above children and

46

demandedthatthe school immediately sack

47

Kramerandget rid of him. I understood

1

2 Q. Youknewhimastheofficialchairman,isthatright?3 A. That'scorrect. Everybodydid.4

5 Q. Hisrolewastochairexecutivemeetingsoftheschool6 boardwhoweretheadviserstothedirectorofallYeshivah7 institutions,RabbiIsaacGroner. Theexecutivecomprised8 fiveorsixmembers. Anyway,thisisdealingwiththe9 complaintin1992. MrCoopersaysthefollowing:

10

11 Ican'trecallhowIfirstbecameinvolved12 withtheincidentsinvolvingKramer,butit13 waseitherPinchasAshorRabbiGroneror14 threeparentswhofirstnotifiedmeofan15 issuewithhim. Thosethreeparentswere16 ZephaniahWaks,[redacted]andIbelieve

17

[redacted].

I'm

not

sure

whether

I

spoke18 of[anotherpersonaswell]

19

20 A. ShouldIsaysomethingnow?21

22 Q. Iwillgiveyouanopportunity:23

24 Itwasthechildrenoffourofthose25 parentsthatwerethesubjectofthe26 complaint. Thechildrenwere[redacted].27 Idon'tknowtothisdaywhatKramerwas

28

actually

accused

of

in

specific

detail.

29 IthinkitwasPinchasAsh,thethen30 headmasteroftheprimaryschoolatthe31 YeshivahCentre,whofirstinformedmethat32 therewasanissuewithKramer,whohad33 beenaccusedbytheparentsofmessing34 aroundwiththeirchildren.My


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1 thattheseincidentshadoccurredinthe2 classroom,soIthereforebelievedthatit3 wasn'tactualsexualrelations.4

5 A. WhatcanItellyou? "Isaythatwasokay,becauseit6 wasnotactuallypenetration. Thatwasreallyokay".7

8 Q. Diditappeartoyouatanytimethattherewasalmost9 aminimisationofthecomplaintsthatyouweremaking

10 againstRabbiKramer?11 A. No,itwasn'treallydiscussed. But,Imean,no,12 Iwouldn'tthinkthatIthoughtaboutthat. Ijustthought13 thattheyweredoingtheircourseofactionforthereasons14 thattheyweredoing;notthattheywerethinkingabout15 whateverhappenedatall. Imean,theywerethinking,the16 wayIthoughtofitatthetime,thattheywereprotecting

17

the

school,

the

name,

the

institution,

everything

like

that18 andIliterallythoughtatthetime,"Bethekids,"ifyou

19 knowwhatImean. Couldn'tcareaboutthekids. "Weare20 protectingtheinstitutionatallcosts." Theyweren't21 goingintodetails. Noonewasthinkingwhathadhappened22 tothekids. Itwasjustthereaction itwasveryblack23 andwhite.24

25 Q. MrCoopersaysorsaidtothepolicethattheparents26 toldhimtheywantedthematterkeptconfidentialsothat27 thechildrenwouldnotsufferastigmainclass. Whatdo28

you

say

about

that?

29 A. Idon'trememberthatatall. Ifinditdifficultto30 believebecauseweknewandnotonlyweknew,afterwards31 I'vegotsomeonethatwasinaroomwhenCoopercameinin32 Groner'shouseandtoldhim,"Wehaveinvestigatedandwe33 found60victimsofKramer." Sotheyknewtheextent. We34 alreadyknewthereweremany,manyvictims. Sowhatstigma35 wouldtherebeifthewholeclasshadbeenmolested?36 Idon'trememberthatandIfinditalittlebitdifficult37 tobelieve.38

39 Q. Yourevidencewasthattherewasameetingofsome,40 what,20parentsplanned?41 A. Correct.42

43 Q. Andtheyallknewthereasonwhytheywerecoming?44 A. Ididn'tknowexactlyatwhatstage. Someofthem45 wouldhavenodoubtspokentothekids,theywouldhave46 heard,someofthemmighthaveknownabouttheirownkids.47


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1 Q. Wereyouinvolvedincallingparentsaswellto2 organisethismeeting?3 A. Yes,wesplitthelist,meand bytheway,Isee4 fromthatthattherewasobviouslyatleastoneother5 personthat'sadmittedmeetingCooperorCooperadmitsmet6 withhim. Sothatnodoubtwouldhavebeentheother7 person.8

9 Q. Andintermsofthepeopleyoucalledonthelist,did10 youtellthem,"Youneedtocometohaveameetingsowe11 cantalkaboutwhatwearegoingtodoaboutRabbiKramer"?12 A. Yes,Iwouldhaveexplainedtothemwearedoingit13 fortheexpresspurposethathe'sbeingsacked. Thatwas14 thepurposeofthemeeting.15

16 Q. Andifwegodowntoparagraph10,MrCoopersaidthis

17

to

the

police

at

the

time:

18

19 Inmymind,theparents'mainconcernwas20 immediateaction,andprotectingthe21 reputationsoftheirchildren. Theparents22 alsosaidthatiftheschoolwasnottodo23 anythingtheywouldcallanimmediate24 meetingofalloftheparentsofthekids25 intheclassinordertogetsomeaction.26

27 A. Idon'tunderstandwhatthishasgotto reputations28

of

their

children

and

getting

action.

I

don't

understand

29 howthetwothingsgotogether,actually.30

31 Q. Inanyevent,thesecondpartofthatevidencethat32 MrCoopergavetothepolice,that"theparentsalsosaid33 thatiftheschoolwasnottodoanythingtheywouldcall34 animmediatemeetingofalloftheparentsofthekidsin35 theclassinordertogetsomeaction,"thatstatementis36 consistentwiththeevidenceyouhavegiventoday,andin37 factwhatyoudiddo,yousetabouthavingameetingtoget

38

some

action?

39 A. Yes. Yes. Again,thenextsentence,"Theydidnot40 stateorimplythattheywantedthepolicetobeinvolved."41 Again,basedonwhatIhavetoldyouthewholetime,that42 reallywasn'tpartofthewholeequation,willwegotothe43 policeornot. Itwasonlygoingtobeusedasatool,as44 alastresorttooliftheydidn'tgetaction,theother45 action,whichmeantstoppinghimteaching,andwhatever46 elsewasgoingtohappen,wedidn'tthinkfurtherthanthat47


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1 Q. Youjustwantedhimoutoftheclassroom?2 A. Correct,asastart. Wedidn'tthinkfurtherthan

3 that. Itisnotthatwethought,"Wewillgethimoutof4 theclassandthenwe'llshiphimout,"or"We'llgethim

5 outoftheclassroomandwedon'tcarewhathappensto6 him." Wewereworriedwiththemostimmediatething,

7 becausethewayIthoughtofitwasthekidsnowknowthat8 theschoolknowswhat'shappened,somethingwhichhasbeen9 ahushedupthingforallthistime,theschoolknowsand

10 it'sbusinessasusual. Whatarethekidsgoingtothink?11 It'sjustabsurd.12

13 Q. IwillreadonfromthefollowingpartsofMrCooper's14 statement:15

16 Aftermeetingwiththeconcernedparents,

17

I

discussed

thematter

immediately

with

18 RabbiGronerandtoaminorextentwith19 RabbiAvrohomGlickandPinchasAsh. After20 discussingthematteratlengthwithRabbi21 Gronerandreviewingallofthealternative22 coursesofaction,RabbiGronerdecidedto23 actimmediatelyandremoveDavidKramer24 fromtheclassasrequestedbytheparents.25

26 RabbiGronerwasconcernedwhetheritwas27 propertoconvictthesuspectwithouta28

fair

hearing

and

whether

the

school

would

29 beliableforunfairdismissal. Inviewof30 thefactthatKramerwasarecentimport31 andhadnotiestothecommunity,andin32 viewofthefactthatthefourparents33 concernedwerelongstandingandreputable34 membersofthecommunity,Gronerresolved35 thattheircomplaintshouldbebelievedand36 Kramershouldgo.37

38

A.

I

have

a

couple

of

comments

there.

I

want

to

see

what39 happenedjustbefore. Isitpossibletogetahardcopy,

40 becauseIwanttogobacktothewordsthatwerewritten41 andIcan'tseethem.42

43 Q. CanMrWaksbegivenahardcopyofthestatement?44 A. ThisisthefirsttimeIhaveseenthisstatementand45 itisextremelyinterestingtome. First,I'mhappytosee46 thatI'mnowoneofthe"longstanding,reputablemembersof47 thecommunity"becausethat'sbeenchallengedinthelast


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34/130



1 adnauseamatthebeginning,tolethimgetitout,2 Ithoughtthatmightbeenough. Ididn'tunderstandenough3 aboutitinthosedays. Therewasanoffermade. It4 wasn'tpursued. Itwasjust,"Wouldyouliketodoit?"5 "No,Iwouldn'tliketodoit,"andIthinkImighthave6 givenareasonandthatwasit. Therewasneveranymore7 discussed.8

9 Q. Thatofferwasmade,nonetheless?10 A. Correct. WhenIthinkaboutitnow,apropercourse11 ofactionbythesocialworkerorthepsychologistofthe12 schoolwouldhavebeentosuggestthattheymetwithmeand13 perhapsdiscusseditwithme. Itwasverystrangetothink14 thataparentunderthesecircumstanceswouldimmediately15 knowwhattodoandknowtherightcourseofaction.16 Ithinkthereshouldhavebeensomeprovisionmadetospeak

17

to

the

parent

as

well,

not

just

the

child.

Anyway.

18

19 Q. Allright. Butinanyeventtheschooldidoffer20 counsellingbut,leavingasidewhateverreason 21 A. Yes,itwasn'ttakenup.22

23 Q. Iwilljustreadon:24

25 IrelayedtheinstructiontoRabbiAshwho26 carriedoutthedismissalofRabbiKramer.27

28

Then

I

read

from

15:

29

30 IwasthencontactedbyDavidKramerwho31 vigorouslyprotestedhisinnocenceandsaid32 therewasawitchhuntagainsthim. Itold33 himthatasfarastheschoolwasconcerned34 inaccordancewithRabbiGroner's35 instructionsthatwewerenotpreparedto36 takeanyrisksinviewofthefactthat37 fourparentshadcomplainedagainsthim.38

39 Kramersaidthatitwasn'ttrueandthathe40 wouldfighttheunfairdismissal. Igave41 himachoice. Theschoolwaspreparedto42 payhisticketbacktoIsraelifheleft43 immediately,orhecouldstayandfightthe44 schoolandbeartheconsequences. Inother45 words,hecouldproveunfairdismissaland46 getdamages,ortheallegationswouldbe47 sustainedandhewouldgetnothingandface


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1 legalaction.2

3 Haveyouheardthatbefore,MrWaks?4 A. Neverhearditbefore. Itanswersmyquestionof5 suddenlynowwhythiswholethingisbroughtin. Inmy

6 opinion,it'sjustacomplete thisnowgivesareasonwhy7 theygothimoutofthecountry. Theywerejustdoingit

8 toprotectthemselves. Ithinkit'swonderful. I'msorry,9 I'mextremelycynicalaboutthis. Neverhearditbefore,

10 no.11

12 Q. NotwithstandingRabbiKramer'sprotestationsof13 innocenceatthetime,youknow,don'tyou,MrWaks,that14 whenhewasultimatelyextraditedbacktoAustraliaand15 couldnolongerescapethecharges,hepleadedguilty,did16 henot?

17

A.

Correct.

But

I

don't

even

understand

this

whole

thing18 becauseeverybodyknewthathehadalreadyadmittedhalf

19 thestuff. Howcanheprotest infact,thisactually20 backsupmycynicismjustnow. HowcanCooperreallywrite21 thisnonsensewhentheguyhasadmitted? Whywouldn'the22 justtellhimback,"Butyouadmitted." Hesaysit'sa23 witchhunt,unfairdismissal. Whatunfairdismissal? "You24 havealreadyadmittedeverythingtoGlick." Howcouldthis25 wholestorypossiblybetrue,really?26

27 Q. Wereyouawarethattheschoolhadpaidfor 28

A.

After

the

event,

yes.

I

also

note

here

in

17:

29

30 Hebeggedmetolethimstaytowinduphis31 affairs,andtravelback 32

33 Andeverything. Ionlyfoundoutayearagothatinfact34 peopleintheschool,highuppeople,hadhelpedhimsell35 allhisthingsandeverythinglikethat,alldonesecretly.36 Onlycertainpeopleknewaboutit. AsItoldyou,thebulk37 oftheschoolcommunity,everybodywasshockedwhenhe

38

left.

But

people

related

to

and

involved

with

the

high

up

39 peoplewereinvolvedinhelpinghimsellhiscar,sellhis40 furniture,someofthemevenboughtthethingsthemselves.41 That'swhysomeofthembecamesomalicioustowardsme.42 TheymusthavethoughtIknewaboutitandIdidn'tknow43 aboutitatthatstage. Ionlyfoundoutmuchlaterthat44 someoftheworstoffenderstowardsmewerepeoplewhowere45 involvedinactuallyhelpinghimdisposeofhisproperty46 beforeheleft. Soherewenowhaveamagicalreasonwhy47 theydidthis. Thiswasallconnectedwithunfair


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1 dismissalandeverything. Isitjustbogglesthemind.2

3 Q. Allright. Iwillleavethatstatementforthe4 moment. Youweregoingoninyourstatementtotalkabout5 theconvictionofKramer,butIwilltakethatpartofthe6 statement. YousayKramerresidedinIsraelforseveral

7 yearsandhewasinfactthen hedidtraveltothe8 UnitedStateswhereheabusedanotherchildandwas9 convictedofthoseoffences,servedasentenceandthen

10 chargeswerelaidmuchlaterinAustralia. Hefought11 extradition,asyouknow,andthenpleadedguiltytothe12 offencesagainstyoursons,twoofyoursons,andwas13 sentencedtoimprisonmentforthoseoffences.14 A. Mmmhmm.15

16 Q. Anditwouldappear,ifIgobacktoMrCooper's

17

statement,

that

in

fact

after

he

left

Australia

he

tried

to18 seekemploymentinnorthernIsraelasateacher. If

19 Icouldreadparagraph19ofMrCooper'sstatement:20

21 Sometimelaterwereceivedacallfroma22 schoolinnorthernIsraelenquiringabout23 Kramerasaprospectiveteacherandwe24 advisedthemnottoemployhimandthathe25 hadleftMelbourneunderacloud.26

27 Ifthatisinfactwhatoccurred,thatsomeonewastold28

that

a

teacher

had

left

under

a

cloud

rather

than

telling

29 anotherschoolthathehadbeenaccusedofsexually30 assaultingchildrenandhehadmadeadmissions,whatdoyou31 thinkaboutthat,MrWaks?32 A. Again,themindboggles. Iwasintouch Ihadsome33 relativesandthenafriendwhoIgotinvolvedintheplace34 hewaslivinginIsrael. It'snotexactlynorthernIsrael.35 Idon'tknowifhewasinvolvedeverasateacherthere.36 Hewascertainlyinvolvedasamajorcharismaticfigurein37 thesynagogueandinchargeoftheyouthgroupinthe

38

synagogue.

I

eventually

convinced

this

friend

of

mine

who39 livedthereofwhathadhappenedhere. Heatthebeginning

40 couldn'tbelieveit. Hecouldn'tbelieveitbecausethe41 guywassocharismatic. Hewastheguywhocalledpeople42 uptothereadingoftheTorah. Hewasamajor,respected,43 reputablefigurethere. Theycouldn'tbelieveit. This44 guy,friendofmine,actuallytoldtherabbithereandthey45 couldn'tbelieveiteitherbecausetheysaidiftherehad46 beensomeproblemlikethistheywouldhavebeennotified47 byAustralia. Forgetaboutaschoolringingup. Therewas


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1 alsoalltheseotherthingsofyouthgroups,contactwith2 kids;nothingwaseverdone. Ittookafewyearsbefore3 theyactuallybelievedthatanythinghadhappened.4

5 It'smyimpressionnowthatthat'sonlybecausehe6 actuallyoffendedandactually Iknowonevictimofrape7 ofhisinIsrael. SoIjustfindthis Ifindit8 offensive,thisthingthattheywererungupandtheytold9 themandthenheleftandtheydidn'temployhimor

10 whatever. Itwasjustacompletelackofdoinganything11 whilehewasthere.12

13 Q. Wewillexplorethatlaterinthisinquiry,MrWaks.14 AfterthetriptoIsraelthatyoutalkaboutandthen15 speakingtoRabbiKramer'spsychologist,wasthatthelast16 thingyouhadtodowithRabbiKrameruntilthe

17

investigation

much

later

on?18 A. I'mnotcertain. No,it'snotthelasttime. No,it

19 definitelywasn'tthelasttime. Atonestageoneofhis20 victimswasinthearmyinIsraelandhestartedtoget21 thoughts actuallyverymuchasMannydescribedyesterday22 afterwardsinthearmyandeverythinglikethat. He23 startedthinkingoftheideaofactuallyexposinghimin24 Israelorgettinghimtogoback somethinglikethat.25

26 Soagainwehadeitherdiscussionsorspoketopeople.27 Idon'trememberwhattheoutcomeofitwas. Ithinkin28

the

end

he

didn't

want

to

proceed.

But

there

was

29 definitelymoremovementandthought. Idon'tknowhowfar30 itgot. Idon'trememberiftherewerephonecallsmadeto31 people. Ithinkatonestagemaybethreatsweremadeto32 Kramer,"Ifyoudon'tcomeforwardyourself" Idon't33 rememberwhereitwent. Buttherewasdefinitelyanother34 periodbetweenthosetwotimes. ButIdon'tknowwhatcame35 ofit. Intheendnothingcameofit.36

37 Q. IaskedyouearlieraboutRamonLewisandyouhavegiven

38

some

evidence

that

you

spoke

to

some

psychologists?39 A. Yes.

40

41 Q. Washethepsychologist?42 A. Himandhiswife. Ididn'twanttosaytheirnames.43 Theywereverygoodfamilyfriends,aswellasbeing44 perfectpeopletospeakto:aprofessorofpsychologyanda45 practisingpsychologist. Theywerejustreallyasshocked46 asme,exceptthattheygavethe,"Okay,youreallycan't47 takeitasnothing,"buttheyweren'tanymoreconvinced


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1 thanIwasthatreallyanythinghadhappenedbecauseitwas2 justsounbelievable. Thethingwas,"Isitokayevento

3 goandspeaktoRabbiGlick? Thisisjustsofarfetched.4 Shallwedoanythingaboutit?" "Yes,youhavetogoand

5 dosomethingaboutit."6

7 Q. Wearenowgoingtomoveontothepartofyour8 evidencethatdealswithManny'sdisclosureofabuse.9 Inotethetime.

10

11 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: Yes. Perhapsit'sanappropriate12 timetogiveMrWaksabreak. Sowewilltakea15minute13 breaknow.14

15 SHORTADJOURNMENT16

17

MS

GERACE:

Your

Honour,

just

before

going

back

to18 MrWaks,couldItender,please,document208,whichwas

19 thepolicestatementofProfessorRamonLewisreDavid20 Kramerdated24May2011.21

22 THEPRESIDINGMEMBER: 226.23

24 EXHIBIT#226POLICESTATEMENTOFPROFESSORRAMONLEWISRE25 DAVIDKRAMERDATED24MAY201126

27 MSGERACE: CanItenderthedocumentattab78,whichis

28

the

statement

of

Harry

Cooper

to

the

police

dated

29 1December2011.30


33 EXHIBIT#227POLICESTATEMENTOFHARRYCOOPERDATED34 1DECEMBER201135

36 MSGERACE: CanItendertwodocumentsthatwerereferred37 toyesterdayinevidence,onebeing32,extractsfrom38 CommitteeofManagement;minutesoftheYeshivahCommittee39 ofManagement. TheywerereferredtolateinMrWaks's40 evidence.41


44 EXHIBIT#228EXTRACTSFROMCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT;45 MINUTESOFTHEYESHIVAHCOMMITTEEOFMANAGEMENT46

47 MSGERACE: Iwillleavetheremainingtender. MrWaks,


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1 canInowaskyou,please,togiveyourevidencetothe2 CommissionaboutManny'sdisclosureofhisabuseandask3 youtoread,please,paragraphs30,31and32ofyour

4 statement?5 A. InDecember1996,afterthecommencementofOperation6 Paradox,acommunityawarenesscampaignagainstchild7 sexualabuse,mysonMannytoldmethathehadbeen

8 sexuallyabusedbyamannamedDavidCyprysfor9 approximatelyoneandahalfyearswhenhewasan

10 adolescent. IunderstandthatCypryswasapproximately11 20yearsoldatthetime. Cypryswasasecurityguardat12 theYeshivahCentreandthelocksmithattheYeshivah13 College. Cypryswasalsoinvolvedinafterschool14 activitieswiththechildren,includingmartialarts.15 Cypryshadunfetteredaccesstotheentirepremisesofthe16 YeshivahCollegeandYeshivahCentre.

17

18 Atsomestageinthe1990sItriedtorestrict19 Cyprys'saccesstotheYeshivahpremisessothathewould20 onlybeallowedtobethereduringprayertimes. Icannot21 nowrecallifthiswasbeforeorafterMannytoldmethat22 hehadbeenabusedbyCyprys. Idrewupadocumentfor23 CyprystosignrestrictinghisaccesstotheYeshivah24 premisesessentiallytoprayertimesonly,butCyprys25 wouldn'tagreeanddidn'tsign. Irecallspeakingtoother26 membersofthecommunity,includingRabbiGlick,aboutthis27 matter. RabbiGlicktoldmethatRabbiGronerwasalso28

against

such

restrictions.

No

one

else

was

prepared

to

do

29 anythingandIwastoldthatCypryswasnowcured,so30 Ileftitatthat.31

32 AssoonasMannytoldmeabouttheabusewereported33 ittothepolice. On17September1996Mannymadea34 statementtothepoliceabouttheabuse. Cypryswas35 subsequentlyinterviewed. Thepoliceinformedusthat36 CyprysdeniedManny'sallegationsandthatitwasacaseof37 Manny'swordagainstCyprys'sword,andthatthecasewould

38

remain

open

until

further

evidence

came

to

light.

The39 matterdidnotproceedanyfurtheratthistimebecauseof

40 alackofcorroboratingevidence.41

42 Q. MrWaks,youspoketoRabbiGlickaboutrestricting43 DavidCyprys'saccesswithinthepremises. Youcan't44 recallwhetherthatwasbeforeorafterMannyspoketoyou45 abouthavingbeenabusedby 46 A. Correct,Icannotrecall. ButIremembertheevents47 veryclearly.


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1

2 Q. Toexplorethepossibilitythatithappenedbeforeyou3 spoketoMannyorbeforeMannyspoketoyou,didyouhave

4 anyotherinformationthatsuggestedDavidCyprysshouldbe5 restrictedfromhavingaccesstotheYeshivahCentre?

6 A. Well,weknewabouttheearliercase. Everybodyknew7 aboutthat. Whyitwouldhavesuddenlycomeup,Ijust 8 maybeittookayearortwo,maybeIdidn'tknowaboutit9 instantlyatthetime,maybeit'swhenIheardaboutit.

10 It'sfeasiblethatitwasbeforethatitwouldhavebeen11 related. Howmanyyearsbeforewastheearliercaseto12 the 13

14 Q. In1992DavidCypryswasconvictedoftheindecent15 assault,andin1996yoursondisclosedtoyouthat 16 A. Fouryears. Itcouldhavebeenthatweonlyheard

17

about

it

two

years

later.

I

don't

remember

the

timeframes.18 Pureconjecture.

19

20 Q. OneofthethingsweheardfromMannyWaksyesterday21 wasofwhatareliefitwaswhenhedisclosedtoyouhis22 abuseandyouimmediatelybelievedhim. Itwasadifferent23 positionwithMannythanithadbeenwithyourearlier24 children?25 A. Exactly.26

27 Q. Earlierdisclosures?28

A.

That's

correct.

Even

though

people

think

it's

29 wonderfulthatIbelievedhim,butunfortunatelyitwasthe30 background,yes.31

32 Q. Wasittheearliercomplaintsbyyourotherchildren?33 A. Well,itwasn'tconscious,Idon'tthink. But,34 Imean,itwasnolonger itjustwasn'tlikethefirst35 time,especiallysinceIhadalreadyseenwhathadhappened36 afterwards;nothing. BythatstageIthinkIwouldhave37 alreadyknownthathewasoffending thatKramerwas

38

already

offending

in

Israel.

So,

you

know,

it

was

a

very39 differentsetofcircumstances.

40

41 Q. Whatwasitlikeforyouastheparenttohavetodeal42 withManny'sdisclosure?43 A. Thatwasworsethanthefirstcasebecauseitwasvery44 bad. IfeltIhadfailedhim. InthefirstcaseIknew45 thatthewhole probablythewholeoftwoclasses,maybe46 therewere60victims. HereIonlyreallyknewabouthim47 whenhetoldme,andI'dfeltIhadfailedhim,yes.


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1

2 Q. YouwereinvolvedinthedecisionwithMannyonthis3 occasionafterhisdisclosuretoimmediatelygotothe4 police?

5 A. Yes,itwasanobrainer. That'swhyIsaidbefore6 that theconceptof thiswasjust thetaboohadbeen

7 brokenandIdidn'tthinkaboutitasecondanymore.8 Ijustknewithadtobedone. Therewasno...9

10 Q. Wasthatinpartinformedagainbythisknowledgeof11 whathadhappenedwhenKramerwentbacktoIsrael?12 A. Thewhole yes,everything,andseeingthatnothing13 hadbeendoneandpeoplehadalreadychangedtheirstories.14 Isawhowithadbeendealtwith. Itwasn'tevena15 consciousdecision. Itwasjustassoonashetoldme,16 that'sit.

17

18 Q. Howdidyoureacttohearingthatthepoliceweren't19 goingtoproceedfurther?20 A. Iwasupset,butIunderstoodthem. Iknowhowthings21 weredone. Ibelievedwordagainstwordwasaproblem.22 Ijustdon'trememberifatthetimewewerethinkingit's23 strangebecausethere'sbeenthisprevioushistory;Idon't24 rememberhowwe ifweignoreditwhywewouldhave25 ignoredit. Maybeweeventoldthemandtheysaidthey26 can'tbringitin. Idon'tknowwhat. Itlookstomevery27 strangenowwhyitwouldn'tbeabasisofgivingabitmore28

weight

to

one

side

than

the

other.

29

30 Q. CanIaskyouyousaythatCypryswasasecurityguard31 attheYeshivahCentreandalocksmith. Wasthatsomething32 youhadseen?33 A. Yes,everyone ShomerSecuritywaswrittenupin34 Yeshivah. Itwascommonknowledge.35

36 Q. Didyouoftenseehimonthecentreornot?37 A. Allthetime. Yes,hewasalwaysaround. Hehadthe

38

perfect

alibi.39

40 Q. Leavingasidethat,butIjustwanttogobacktowhat41 yousawaroundthistime,andyoudescribingaround42 September1996,andI'maskingyouabouteitherthatperiod43 ortheyearsbefore,saybetween1992andnow,didyousee44 DavidCyprysthereatthecentre? Didhelooklikehewas45 standingsecurityoutsidethesynagogueorforthecentre?46 A. No,notlikeinthesedays,notlikelater. Hewas47 knownasthe notinthesamewayasalaterstagewhich


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1 Mannydescribedit. Hewasdoing theyhadsecurityon2 thepremises. Hewasthesecurity. ShomerSecurity,you3 wouldseethestickersupeverywhere. Andalsothekeys.

4 Youjustknew. Hewasaroundallthetime.5

6 Q. Didhehaveasortofroleasacaretakeralmost?7 A. Itwasalmostthatsortoflevelofhimbeingthere.8 Hewasthereallthetime,andespeciallyatoddhours,

9 yes.10

11 Q. Allright. Ithinkyouthengooninyourstatement12 todescribeManny'spublicstatementabouttheabuse,and13 I'mgoingtoaskyounowtoreadonfromparagraph33,14 please?15 A. InJuly2011Mannymadeapublicstatementthathewas16 sexualabusedasateenagerattheYeshivahCentrein

17

Melbourne.

18

19 BeforeMannymadethestatementhesaidtome,"I'm20 thinkingofgoingpublic,whatdoyouthink?" Thefirst21 thoughtthatIhadwasthatoneofmydaughterswasof22 marriageableageandIwonderedifitmightaffecther23 marriageprospects. HoweverIdidnotpreventMannyfrom24 makingthestatementbecauseIknewhowimportantitwas25 forhimtomakethestatementaftersomanyyears. Iwas26 notgoingtostandinhisway.27

28

At

the

time

I

thought

Manny

going

public

meant

just

29 talkingtopeopleaboutit. Ididn'trealisehemeant30 makinganofficialpublicstatementinthemediaand31 everything. IfIhadknownhewasgoingtomakean32 officialpublicstatementImayhaveexpressedmyconcerns33 tohimmorestrongly. Eitherway,Iwouldnothavestopped34 himfrommakingthestatement.35

36 AfterManny'spublicstatementIexperienced37 intimidationandisolationfromtheYeshivahcommunity.

38

I

felt

that

leaders,

members

and

many

then

friends

from

the

39 YeshivahCentrecommunitytalkednegativelyaboutmebehind40 mybackandwereveryunapproachable. Asdetailedbelow,41 IwasexcludedfromChabadcustoms,refusedspiritual42 blessingsbyseniorYeshivahleaders,physicallyassaulted43 inthesynagoguebyamemberoftheYeshivahcommunityand44 IlostmanypeoplethatIconsideredtobegoodfriends.45 IdetectedachangeinbehaviourtowardsmebyYeshivah46 communitymembers. IamnolongerapartoftheYeshivah47 community. However,Idonotfeelthatthiswasbychoice.


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1 Iamhappytobeoutofitnow,butitwasdifficulttoget2 tothatstage. DuringthetimewhenIwastryingtostaya3 partoftheYeshivahCentrecommunityitwasvery

4 difficult. Thattimewasparticularlydifficultformy5 wife,Haya,asshewasveryinvolvedinthesocialaspect

6 oftheYeshivahCentrecommunity.7

8 AssoonasMannywentpublicIwasconcernedaboutthe9 consequencesforourfamily. On11July2011Isentan

10 emailtoNechamaBendetattheYeshivahCentre shewas11 thegeneralmanageratthetime whichIaskedhertosend12 ontoeveryonewhoshouldseeit. IaskedfortheYeshivah13 leadershiptowritetothecommunitysayingthattheydo14 notblameMannyforgoingpublic,thattherestofhis15 familyhadnothingtodowithhimgoingpublicandnotto16 blamethem,andthattheyreallydowantpeopletofully

17

cooperate

with

the

police.

I

reinforced

this

request

in18 furtheremailsoverthenextfewdays,askingfor

19 unequivocalleadershiptotakethepressureoffmyfamily.20 AlthoughIreceivedbriefresponsesfromDonWolf,the21 communicationIhadaskedforwasnotsent.22

23 Q. CanIaskyounowaboutthat. Didyousufferan24 almostimmediateresponsefromthecommunityfollowing25 Manny'spublicdisclosureorthearticleappearinginthe26 newspaper?27 A. Yes. ThearticleappearedIthink cameoutThursday28

night

or

Friday.

We

were

in

Canberra,

where

he

was

living

29 atthetimebecausehehadwhat'scalledopsherenish,the30 firsthaircutatage3,andwewerethereforthatSabbath.31 Peopleimmediatelyconnectedthatwehadranawayforthat32 Sabbathbecauseitwasinthepaper. Totallynonsense,but33 anyway. SoIdidn'tcomebackuntiltheSundayorthe34 Monday. AssoonasIwalkedintothesynagoguethefirst35 timeIcouldjustfeelarrowsaimedatme,anditjustwent36 onfromthereuntilthefirstSabbathwhenIwasback. So37 thatmeansaweeklaterthatwasthefamoussermon.

3839 Q. Iwilltakeyoutothesermoninaminute. Interms

40 ofyourexperienceofcomingback,letmeexplorethata41 littlebitmore. Wasitsomethingpeoplesaidorwasit42 somethingpeopledidn'tsay? Didyouhavefewerpeople43 sayinghello?44 A. Both. Ican'trememberanyparticularthings,but45 peoplemadecommentstomebothactivelyandpassively,46 yes.47


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1 Q. Intermsofpassively,diditconsistofpeople2 perhapsnotsayinggoodmorningor 3 A. Yes,notsayinggoodmorning,lookswhichcouldkill,

4 becausethiswasreallymajor. Itwasthefrontpageof5 TheAgeanditwas TheAgeisnot it'sconsideredby

6 themanantiSemiticnewspaper,which shallIgoon?7

8 Q. Well...9 A. It'sveryamusingbecausethat'sbeenusedasa

10 reason,"WhydidhegotoTheAge?"TheAgewasnogood.11 TheJewishNewsisnogoodbecausethat'santireligious.12 Soitreallyturnsout,"Thereisnonewspaperyoushould13 havegoneto." Buteachthingwasusedateveryparticular14 stagetoattack,tovilify.15

16 Q. Didpeopletellyouorsay,"WhyTheAge?"

17

A.

They

may

have

had

reasons

or

not.

It

had

been18 antiIsraelatdifferenttimes. Whatever. Ireallydon't

19 know. AlreadyfromthatstageItrustedhisjudgmentin20 havingspokentothatjournalist,andsincemeetingher21 afterthatIknewshewasnotantiSemitic. Ihavenoidea22 aboutthepaper. Ididn'tbuythenewspaper. Idon'tknow23 it. Idon'treallyreadnewspapers. Ikn

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Transcript (Day C061) 3 February