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T h e M U F O NUFO JOURNALNUMBER 136

Founded 1967.OFFICIAL PUBLICATIONOF NUJPONJMUTUALUFO NETWORK, INC.,

i!

Vol. 397No. 23

T h u r s d a y18th J a n u a r y 1979

P A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S(HANSARD)HOUSE OF LORDSOFFICIAL REPORT

CONTENTSW E D N E S D A Y , 17 J A N U A R Y 1979(Continuation of Proceedings)M o t i o n I n d u s t r i a l Recovery (Debate con t i nued ) [Col. 1101]Deer Bill [H.L.]Co mm ittee [Col. 1118]W r i t t e n Answe r sTHURSDAY, 1 8 J A N U A R Y 1979Q ues t i on s - P e n s i o n F u n d I nv es tmen t [Col . 1155 )Cha r i e r 77 Appea l : Human R i g h t s [Col. 1157]

Grey Squ i r re l Cont ro l in Scotland [Col. 1159]Social Workers: Inqu i r y Proposal [Col. 1163]A nc ien t M o n u n K i m a nd Archaelogical Areas B i l l [H .L.]Fir s t Readingrrv,i 1 1 (.71A n sw e r s " British "Nat iona l i t y Law: Discuss ion of Poss ib leChanges "Disabled Persons: Employment Quota*DeficiencyDisarmament a n d A r m s Con t ro l : _ UN Resolu t ions

LONDONH E R M A J E S T Y ' S S T A T I O N E R Y O F F I C E

40p ne t

JUNE 1979

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TED PHILLIPSLand ing Trace CasesJOHN F. SCHUESSLERUFO Propuls ion

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The M UFON UFO JOURNAL i spublished by the Mut ua l UFONetwo rk , Inc., Seguin, Texas.Subscr ipt ion rates: $8.00 per yea rin th e U.S.A.; $9.00 pe r yea rfo re ign. Copyright 1979 by theM u t u a l UFO Network. Secondclass postage paid at Seguin,Texas. POSTMASTER:Send form3579 to advise change of address toT he M U F O N U F O J O U R N AL ,103 Oldtowne Rd. , Seguin, Texas78155.

F R O M TH E ED I TORThe UFO debate in the British House of Lords, reported in th i si ssue, is a perfect microcosm of the UFO problem a problem ofa t t i tudes , o f prior i t ies,and of military/political reactions to quest ionst h a t have no neat explanatory pigeonholes. Since UFOs do no t"at tack" and wreak widespread dest ruct ion, they are,concluded to"pose no t h rea t to nat iona l securi ty ." T h e British Par l i ament and theU.S. Congress daily are faced with urgent problems of energy,popula t ion, pollut ion, and crime. Fo r obvious reasons, UFOs a reseen a s m ore ephemera l . They do not obvious ly affect day-to-day l i f eand must therefore be given a lower priori ty .T h e British Lords , whe ther pro or con on the UFO subject ,qui te properly look to science fo r guidance. . .but d o they look invain? Another famo us Bri t i sher , Lord Bertrand Russell , pointed ou tyears ag o that science increasingly does "political" w ork , dictatedmore by where the research funds are a vai lable tha n by any noble"search for t ru th ," pa r t i cu la r ly wh ere ridicule may be the reward.T h e Lords are to be commended fo r some t hough t fu l commenta ry ,point ing out the v e ry hum a n difficulties of coming to grips with aproblem th at threatens to ou tm ode m a ny of our cher ished w ays ofgoverning or of coping with na t u r e and "reality."

In this IssueBRITISH PARLIAMENT DEBATES UFOs 3MUFON SYMPOSIUM AGENDA 11NE W ZEALAND FILM REPORT - Part 2 12By Bruce S. MaccabeeD M OTHERS' WORDS 19By Lucius ParishDIRECTOR'S MESSAGE 20By Wal t Andrus

T h e contents o f The M U F O N UF O JOURNAL a redetermined by the editor , and do no t necessarilyrepresent th e official position of M UFON. Opin ions ofcontr ibutors are the i r own. anddo not necessarily reflectthose of the editor , the s taff, or M UFON. Articles may befo rwarded d i r ec tly to M UFON.

Permission is herby granted to quote from th i s issueprovided not more th an 200 words are quoted from an yone ar t ic le , the a utho r of the ar t ic le is given credit , an dth e statement "Copyright 1979 by the MUF ON UFOJOURNAL, 103 Oldtowne Rd. , Sequin, Texas" iincluded.


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BRITISHPARLIAMENT DEBATES UFOs

On Thu r sd ay , January 18, 1979,the British HouseofLords conducted afull-fledged UFO debate initiated by theEarl of Clancarty (Brinsley Le PouerTrench, author of several UFO booksb e fo r e becoming a Member o fParliament). T he debate fills about 70pages of the House of Lords "OfficialReport" of Parliamentary Debates.Since the discussion touches on m a n yimportant issues, extensive excerptsare reproduced here. Credit PeterTomikawa , for providing th e officialt ranscript .

UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS7.7 p.m.

The Earl of CLANCARTY rose to callattention to the increasing number of sightingsand landings on aworldwide scale of unidentifiedflying objects (UFOs), and to the need for anintragovernmental study of UFOs; and to movefor Papers. T he noble Earl said: It is wi th muchpleasure that I introduce this debate this eveningabout unidentified flying objects known morebriefly as UFOs an d sometimes as flying saucers.Iunderstand that this is the first time th e subject ofUFOs has been debated in your Lordships'House, so that this is indeed a unique occasion.Before proceeding fur ther I th ink I should declarean interest, in that I have written a number ofbooks about UFOs. I am gra te fu l to those nobleLords who are going to follow me in this debateand I am sure that it will be a most stimulatingdiscussion.Before speaking about th e need for an intra-governmental study of UFOs, which is the basisof my Motion being debated today, I think itadvisable to give your Lordships some

background to this fascinating subject of UFOs. Ishall briefly cover a little history, th e classes ofwitnesses, the characterises of UFOs and someimportant sightings, an d then I shall deal wi th th evital subject of the attitude of governments tothese important phenomena. . .: (The Earl ofClancarty described ancient Egyptian reports,W o r l d W a r D sightings, an d early 1940's an d1950's cases.-Ed.)There are literally vast numbers of theseastounding reports. Indeed, my Lords, thisworldwide UF O invasion of every country's ai rspace is of growing importance an d therefore Isuggest that Parliament keeps a continous watchon the situation. I have thought of on e way o fdoing this. In the same way that there is a Houseof Lords Defence Study Group ably chaired bythe noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, perhaps we could

have a House of Lords UF O Study Group to meetperiodically. If any of your Lordships ar einterested, please le t me know!I should l ike to touch on the attitudes ofGovernments towards th i s subject and to stressthe need'fo r an i n t r a - gove rnmen ta l s t udy , wh i c his the object of my Motion.I am only go i ng to talk

about four Governments, your Lordships willprobably be pleased to know. First, let us take alook at the United States. I t h i nk that one of thereasons fo r "playing down" UFOs some years agoin th e United States was t he fear of panic amongthe public. This was partly based on an ac t ua lpanic that d id occur in 1938 due to a very realist icbroadcast by Orson Welles of H.G. Wells' W ar o fth e Worlds. Thousands of people l e f t theirhomes.However, after th e war, th e United StatesAi r Force investigated pilots' reports wi t hou t anydebunk ing . Then the Central IntelligenceAgency, the CIA, stepped in . The CIA controlsth e intelligence departments of the UnitedStatesmilitary services. They ordered the UnitedStatesAi r Force to clamp down on UFO reports. Thatwas, I believe in 1953 and it has been goingon eversince. Pilots who reported seeing UFOs werer id iculed, an d after a time other pilots d id no treport them for fear of damag ing the i r reputation.We had high hopes du r i ng President Carter'selection campaign that there was a strongpossibility of a breakthrough to the t r u t h aboutUFOs. He disclosed duringhis campaign that heh ad seen a UFO a few years previously inGeorgia, and he added that i f he go t into th eWhite House he wouldrelease to the public all theUF O informat ion in the Pentagon. Unfo r tu na te ly ,that election pledge ha s no t been fulfilled.What ha s been happening in the SovietUnion? Probably th e leading ufologist in thatcountry is Doctor Felix Zigel, Professor of HigherMa t he m a t i c s and Astronomy at the MoscowAeronaut ica l Institute. For a long t ime he hadbeen t ry ing to form a big UFO research group ona worldwide scale. M a n y UFGs have been seenover th e Soviet Union. In J u l y , August,September an d October 1967, fo r instance, giantspace ships were seen over various parts of theUSSR by astronomers and other witnesses. On10th November of t h a t year, i t was announcedthat there was to be a f u l l investigationof UFOs.This was announced on Russian television. Theoperation was to be headed by Majo r GeneralAnatoly Stolyerov, wi th Doctor Zigel a s NumberTwo. Thousands of UFO cases were to beanalysed by scientists an d Soviet Ai r Forceofficers. However, th e Russian Academy fo rSciences came down hard on the new UFO groupand on 27th February, 1968, Pravda publishedth e official attitude of the authorities, and t hecover-up was on.

There i s , however , one c o u n t r y wh i c h can berelied upon to take a l ine i ndependen t f rom othersover m a n y matters, an d UFOs proved to be noexcept ion. In February, 1974, th e t hen FrenchMini s te r o f Defence, M . Robert Galley , wasinterviewed enti re ly about UFOs o n France Interr ad i o s t a t i on . T h e i nte rviewer w a s Jean C l a u d eBourret . At the t i me there w a s t r e m e n d o u spubl ic i ty in France, but fo r some reason ou rnewspapers d id no t even men t i on th e broadcast.M . Galley stated t h a t th e UFOs were real bu tadmi t t ed that i t was no t known where they camef rom. He said t h a t since 1954, there had been aun i t in the French Min i s t r y of Defence collectingUFO reports. Some o f th i s mate r i a l w as sent tot h e Na t i ona l Centre fo r Space Studies inToulouse, th e French equ ivalent of the America nNASA. In t h i s Centre there w a s also a u n i t ascientif ic one s t udy i ng both UF O s i gh t ing andland ing reports.A little over a year ago, I received somei nfo rmation that th i s par t icu lar un i t w a s undergovernment sponsorships and so I put down aQues t i on fo r W r i t t e n Answer. T h e noble Lord,Lord Donaldson of K ingsb r i dge , kindly confi rmedto me in his reply t h a t th e GEPAN u n i t thoseare the initials of the group h a d been set upunde r t he French Mi ni s t r y of Indus t ry ,Commerce a nd Artisans a t the centre inToulouse. M . Galley also added that th egendarmerie were play ing a very important part inUFO investigations, questioning witnesses andexamin i ng b u r n t ci rcular marks on t he groundw he r e UFOs had landed, or were alleged to havelanded. So the French have been t ak ing i t allser iously and keeping the i r ow n people i n fo rmed .Nobody panicked an d people d id no t rush likelemmings in to th e sea.

I t i s not time that H er Majesty's Govermentinformed ou r people of what they know aboutUFOs? T he UFOs have been coming inincreasing numbers for 30 years since th e war,and I t h i nk it is time ou r people were told thet r u t h . W e have n o t been invaded f rom outerspace. Most incidents have not been hostile.Indeed i t is us, the earthlings,w ho have fired ont he m . There m ay have been a few allegedly hostileincidents , but I maintain that if there is ad i s t u rb i ng element in a phenomenon which ispret ty fr iendly on t he whole,w e should be told th et r u t h . Whatever th e truth is, I am sure that aninformed public is a prepared one. Another t h i ng :it i s on record that both s i gh t ing and landingreports are increasing all the.time. Just supposethe u fonau t s decided to make mass landingstomorrow in this country there could wefl bepanic here, because our people have not beenprepared.

The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, is to reply(Continued onnext page).


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(Parliament, Continued)for Her Majesty's Government at the end of thisdebate. I should like to ask the noble Lordwhether he will contact h is r i gh t honourablefriend the Minis ter of Defence, about th epossibil ity of giving a broadcast interview aboutUFOs, as his counterpart across the Channeldidin 1974. That wou ld g o a longway to discredit th eview held by a lot of people in this country thatthere is a cover-up here and that in some w a y w eare playing along wi th th e UnitedStates over this.I should also like to see an int ra-governmenta lstudy of the UFOs. Al l Governments should g ettogether and pool their knowledge about UFOs,and the results should be passed on to the public.Finally, I should like to thank your Lordships fo ry o u r kind attention,and I beg to move fo r Papers.7.29 p.m.Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am boundto say that I face making this speech with sometrepidation. I had wondered whether w e couldjust ify th e holding of what is in effect a f u l l debateon this matter; bu t having seen the audience wehave tonight, and indeed having heard the speechof the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, I can see thatthat sort of thought would not go down too well. Imay well be shouted down before I finish anyway,but let us see if we can avoid that r ight a t the start.

The noble Earl asked us in his Motion tosupport a proposal particularly for an in t ra-governmental study I suppose he means, a sindeed he has described, between Governments.No doubt he would wish to see the co-operationof th e United States. But I should not want tosupport that kind of proposal. I do not think th et ime has ye t come when we can view this matter ,with sufficient certainty to justify the expenditureof public money on it .

I cer ta inly agree that th e numerous vo lun t a rybodies, i nc lud ing those wi t h wh i ch th e noble Earlis associated, ought to be encouraged, andindeedI should not be opposed to i nfo rmal l inks betweenthose bodies or, a t least th e responsible onesan d others, such as the Mi ni s t r y of Defence. But Iam ashamed to say, in the midst of all this fa i th ,tha t I am not myself a believer in UFOs described,as I believe they are, as objects or vehicles fromanother planet or f rom another universe.I have some 2,500 hours as a pilot. I haveflown across th e at lan t ic a few times as a pilot.But, unlike wi th th e a i rc raf t reported by t he nobleEarl, I have never seen one. I presume indeed, Ibelieve that a good many of the sightings ca nbe explained by logical scientific theory and I am,so far at least, convinced that those that cannotso far be so explained could be , if ou r knowledgewere more advanced or i f . we h a d moreinformat ion about th e sightings in question. It isthese unexplained sightings upon whichufologists rely so heavily in asking us to acceptthei r theories. But 1 believe, a s I say, that theseunexplained sightings could be and indeed,would be explained, if w e hadmore knowledgeabout them; fo r example, , better photographs.Howmany clear photographs ofUFOs have yourLordships seen? All I have seen a re hazy, f udg yphotographs which could, or could not, begenuine.Ufologists often rely upon radar informat ionfor evidence in the i r case, but I must tell your

Lordships that radar plays more tricks even thanthe camera, and 1 do not believe that radarinformat ion , in this context, is valid. Fo r example,th e recent sightings in New Zealand, which werewidely reported jus t before Christmas, includingsome rather strange-looking photographs whichappeared on television, were also said to havebeen confirmed by radar informat ion which w asavailable to the aircraft in question. But I knowf rom m y o w n experience that radar is f requentlyused, and, indeed, is so designed, for detectinganomalies in atmospheric conditions and inweather patterns, and I am no t persuaded thatradar is a valid supporting argument in this case.Since time immemorial, man has ascribedthose phenomena that he could not explain tosome supernatural or extraterrestrial agents.Eventually, as scientific' wisdom has advanced,these phenomena are understood more fully,unti l now, today, no one takes witchcraftseriously and there are no fairies at the bottomofmy garden. It is not so long ag o that magnetism,as i t occurs natura l ly in the form of lodestone, w ast h o u g h t to be the work of the Devil, as indeedwere some of the hot springs f ou nd in Iceland,Australia, and elsewhere....

I emphasize that I do n ot for a moment doubtthe sincerity and conviction of those who believein these objects, who believe that they are visitorsfrom another universe or, at least, somesupernatural force beyond ou r reason. I simply donot happen to agree wi th them. I certainlydo no tagree with th learned professor, speaking on theradio the other morning,who said: "Anyone whobelieves in UFOs is a loony." But as for thesuggestion that an in ternat ional . study groupshould be set up, I do not th ink that I couldcountenance that as a serious proposal at thistime. Iemphasize, however, that I wouldbe happyto encourage i nfo rmal links between, fo rexample, the RAF and the very worthy groupsw h o believe differently from t he way I do....The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, hasdone usa service by bringing this matter fo rward , but Iwould counsel caution and care.7.38 p.m.T he Earl of KIMBERLEY: M y Lords, as thenoble Lord, Lord Trefgame, has said, themajority of noble Lords in this Chamber will begreat ly indebted to the noble Earl, LordClancarty, fo r raising this fascinating andcontroversial subject this evening. Before I begin,perhaps I should sa y that I have an interest in it,because I am a director of a company which is tomake an identified flying object a thermoskysh ip , which is saucer shaped. I shall not gett h a t muddled up. But in spite of sceptics, such a sth e noble Lord, Lord Wigg, th e other day in anewspaper, and Sir Bernard Lovell from JodrellBank, who says that UFOs do not exist, wemustagree that they do, because otherwise therewould be no unident i f ied flying objects.Furthermore, we should not have throughout theworld radio telescopes listening to try to pick ups ignals from intelligences in outer space....

It has been reported that the United Statesand the USSR signed a pact in 1971toswap UFOinformat ion, but the pact stated that they were tokeep th e rest of the world in the dark. I believet ha t the pact was signed so that neither super-

Power wou ld make mistakes about UFOs beingatomic missiles. I am also led to understand thatqu i t e recently th e three UnitedStates balloonistsw h o crossed th e Atlantic were followed fo r up to12 hours by UFOs bu t were ordered by UnitedStates Government agents not to discuss them.W e know t h a t war i n space, once a f i gment ofth e imagination and a subject much beloved byscience fiction wr i te r s , is very nearly a factnow. Both super-Powers have, or will have, killersatellites and laser beamsoperating inspace.MayI ask the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, whether heagrees that this may perhaps be one of thereasons for the reticence of the United Statesover being more forthcoming about their UF Oinformat ion? . . . .As the noble Lord, Lord Trefgame, said, Iagree entirely that we do no t understand many ofthese unidentified flying objects because of burlack of knowledge. UFOs defy worldly logic. Evenif on e accepts that there may be l i f e elsewhere inour galaxy, or even inother galaxies, the humanmind cannot begin to comprehend UFOcharacteristics: their propulsion, their suddenappearance, their disappearance, their greatspeeds, their silence, their manoeuvers, theirapparent anti-gravity, their changing shapes.They defy ou r present knowledge an d laws ofmatter. Of course, this naturally upsets ourearthly scientists because it is outside their.ear th ly terms of reference and knowledge, but totr y to present UFOs iri a more mundane light le tus briefly examine the last 30years....: (The Earlof Kimberly recounted th e early history of UFOsin th e United States and presented a list ofprominent people who either had sighted UFOsor took them seriously.--Ed.)

Despite the United States and the USSRembargo on UFO informat ion, funnily enough th eRussians appear more inclined to th ink thatUFOs have extraterrestrial origins. Further,some Russian scientists see a connectionbetween UFOs and paranormal phenomena. Infac t , there i s an ever-growing belief that spacetravel has a connection with telepathy andtelekinesis, because cosmonauts in orbit havediscovered through scientifictests that they havean increased level of telepathiccommunication. Ifwe assume that extra-terrestrial intelligenceswhotravel to earth are more advanced than we areand in that respect I think that they must be then UFOs could be telekinetic phenomena: inother words, controlled by thought pulses. ...

I believe that there is much material evidenceon UFOs in the national archives in the UnitedStates of America which has never been madekn o wn to the public, and even President Carter isfinding it difficult to carry out his pre-electionpledge. I am led to believe that he has triedunsuccessful ly with NASA to do UFO research.The answer he has been given is "No, due toexpense."That research which NASA has beenrequired to do would cost a fewmillion dollars,but a few million dollars is only th e cost of two .astronauts' suits. Therefore it appears obviousthat for some reason there is a cover-up in theUnited States.W e in the United Kingdom are in a strangeposition because we have had thousands ofs ight ings , yet I am led to understand that th eMinis t ry of Defence have only tw o clerks working(continued on next page)


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(Parliament, Continued)on UFO sightings. Further, they claim that theyare not spending any money on UFO research.They appear reluctant to investigate publiclyconnected.phenomena such as alleged messagesfrom outer space. They s ay that th i s i s theresponsibility of the BBC and the Post Office.Can the Minister say whether the BBC and thePost Office know that they have thisresponsibility?

Fur the r , when th e noble Lord, LordStrabolgi, replies to the debate will h e confi rmthat H er Majesty's Government migh t besympathetic an d give support to the efforts ofPresident Carter, Dr. K u r t Waldhe im and SirEricGairy to get the United Nations to debate theresolution"to discouer th e origin, nature an d intent ofU FO s . "

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, said that weshould set up a parliamentary UFOgroup to meta few times a year. I would concur with him.Further, I think th e general public should beencouraged to come forward with evidence.M a n y do not, fo r fear of being r idiculed. Let thembe open; let them be honest; letthem badger theirMember ofParliament and the Government to beopen with them and to cease what I am convincedis a cover-up here. The people of Britain have aright to know al l that th e Goverments, no t only ofthis country but others throughout the world,know about UFOs.Before I sit down I ask the noble Lord, LordStrabolgi, whether he will tell your Lordships w hyth e Minist ry of Defence has not informed th epublic of 18 contacts from 23rd M ay 1977 up to22nd February 1978, numbered K 5634 to K 5651inclusive. Further, what do the classificationnumbers 5,3,20,16,6,8 and 23mean for these18contacts? Moreover, does the noble Lord realiset h a t 13 out of these 18contacts were seen duringthe hours of daylight?There need to be no fearthat th e people of this country m ay panic, since ifUFOs are extra-terrestrial their intelligence andknowledge is far ahead of our primitiveunderstanding. M y Lords, I heart i ly support th eMotion moved by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty,for an in tra-governmental body to researchUFOs. Let Her Majesty's Government give anexample to the rest of the world by being th eleader in this investigation.7.55 p.m.The Viscount of OXFUIRD: M y Lords, first Ishould like to thank the, noble Earl, LordClancerty, fo r init iat ing this extremely interestingdebate. Of course it is really much above m yhead, but I have enjoyed it already a n d I hope Ishall enjoy i t for the rest of the evening.To me, thefirst question really is, where have these UFOscome from? There could be agreat many answersto that, but in the first place we can look a t ourow n planet and there i s no doubt that there is verylittle chance of the i r having come from any th ing inour own solar system. ...

The next possibility which has been paradedis that they mightcome from th e sister sun in ourow n galaxy. Of course that is quite possible if yo ubelieve in the now accepted or shall we say

more popular ? theory of the "big bang" for thestart of the universe. Undoubtedly, o u r s un a n dit s solar system must have been shared wi th manyothers a t t h a t moment when w e suddenlyappeared. They even give dates for it now; theytalk about 5,000 million years ago, which fits inwi th our own geological background.There are many stars which have a solarsystem which migh t well be in the same position;they might have one planet, as we have, as good

as ours and wi th th e same amount of knowledge.On the other hand, we must accept the fac t , asth e noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, w as saying, that itwou ld have to be something which w e have no tbeen able to attain on th i s earth and somethingt h a t we do not understand on th i s earth, becauseif on e wanted to get, say, f rom A Centauri,whichis ou r nearest star, to here, it would take half alifetime. Even travelling faster than any t h i ng w ehave ever produced in the w ay of space ships inthis world of ours, th e distance is 250,000 timesth e distance that we a re f rom ou r sun, which is 93million miles. It is a distance which wouldcertain lytake half a lifetime, even a t 100,000miles an hour.So I do not think it would be reasonable to look atanother solar system, say A Centauri, which isvery near, being only rough ly 4% light years fromus, which i s no t very much in space. There i s o fcourse the possibility that the UFOs may comefrom some secret effort on this earth. This I verym u c h doubt because one could not keep a th inglike that secret for 20 or 30 years. I very muchdoubt th e possibility of its being on thisearth....

If th e suggestion of the noble Earl , LordClancarty, backed by the noble Earl, LordKimber ley, is adopted that is , that w e shouldhave a worldwide organisation to look into thismat te r and to go fu r the r than we have ever done,w hy should we not be the leaders of it? It wouldtwist science back into a new field. Is it possiblethat there i s not merely another solar system inou r galaxy, bu t that somewhere in one of themany galaxies in the expanding universe there a reother places where these things could come fromwi th their amaz ing ly vast scientific knowledge? Ipersonally see no valid reason why we mustaccept that at this time, but we should startwork ing for it. If we had a worldwide organisationto try to control that, perhaps we should be ableto solve many of the problems which face ustoday in the universe; and nothing could bebetter. Then w e migh t possibly find th e answer toour UFOs.8.2 p.m.Lord DAVES of LEEK: M y Lords, as the onelone f i gu re on this side of the House who hasdared to come in on this debate, may I say that ithas been a pleasure to listen to the nobleViscoun t , Lord Oxfu i r d , wh o h a s j u s t spokenand, w h o has, i n h i s own inimitable way, as aresult of his military and other experience overthe years, brought a certain depth and profundi tyto the request for some investigation into thephenomenon with which mankind is presentedtoday. Consequently, with al l sincerity I can sayt h a t I hope this House will have th e pleasure oflistening to the noble Viscount on manyoccasions adding his voice to our deliberations,and I thank him for what he has said.Now I want to attack th e problem i n my own

w a y . First, I want to ask what are we t a lk inga b o u t . Secondly, after expressing m y gratitudefor th e maiden Speech, I would also expresst h a n k s t o t he noble Earl , Lord Clancarty, w h oinit iated this debate to call attention to theincreasing number of sightings and l and i ngs on awo r l dw ide scale of unident i f ied flying objects.There i s no argument about that. Do not let thenoble Earl be a little bit sad because of dandyintellectualism that may approach this debate.T h e wor ld oozes wi th in te l lectua l i ty and a t t hepresent moment it is completely lack ing inwisdom. Let us remember w h a t I have said r ruinyt imes here, and i t was m y o ld motherw ho t a u g h tm e this; she made me go to Sunday school andquote th e tex t . Sh e wou ld say i n Welsh: "Alwaysremember, m y boy, Solomon did not ask forcleverness, he asked fo r wisdom." There i s a vastdifference between th e dandy i nte l lec tual i sm ofsome of the reporters on newspapers' approachto th i s problem and t he wise approach t h a t w ehave ju s t heard in th i s maiden speech. Let usanchor t h a t down. What else does th e noble Earlask for. H e says on a worldwide scale and t h a tthere is need fo r intergovernmentals t u d y . I willadd to i t f rom th e other side of the House t h a t th eexpense would be so small that w e should no tneglect th i s . . . .There is a queerness in the cosmology of thewor ld in which we are now living. W as Wellsr ight?W e .certain ly s ee mankind acting queer whenpetrol is short. He is snarling and worse than anybeing from outer space. The antropologicalarrogance of 20th century man in his t inpotmotor-cars r i d ing through th e streets of the lovelyspaceship w e call th e world is heartbreaking. H ehas learnt nothing f rom his two wars; and i f wehad another, Go d help mankind, in view of thew ay that he has shown his greed, selfishnessand tendency to panic as never before since thedays of the Crusades. T h e greatest delusion in thehis tory o f man was t he delusion of the Crusades.Bu t m en went on them after th e days of Peter th eHermit with a f iery and f ierce belief in what theywere doing....

The House has heard a number of laudablepeople quoted. Ordinary little people havesometimes been laughed at, especially thoseconcerned in the famous sighting at PascagoulainMississippi when on e little fellow fainted when hes a w a chap with one leg jumping towards h im witha wizened a nd wrinkled face, wi th pointed ears,crab claws fo r hands, slits fo r eyes and holesbeneath h is nostrils they would not be nostrilsw i t h o u t holes, at least I should hope s o ! W e shallno t develop fantas t ic descriptions like that. W eshall no t go into those realms. But we must s aythat there are many people who have said thatthey have experienced these phenomena.

I agree that the New Zealand incident hasreawakened man's interest and as the nobleLord, Lord Trefgame, said, they were not clearpicures. However, Iattended a scientific lecture nth i s noble building not so very long ago, given bysomeone w ho believed fai thfully in the Loch Nessmonster. He showed us masses of films. He was ascientist and he swore that the Loch Nessmonster existed. There is just as much case forth e existence of flying saucers. W e know that

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(Parliament,* Continued)they exist. All we are saying is that they areunidentified. They may be terrestria l or celestial.We a re asking Governments to f i n d an answerand tha t is a ll tha t this debate is about. There is nomagic , we have noth ing up our sleeves, but let thewor ld know wha t is going on. . . .Is the earth the only planet popula ted byintell igent technological l i f e ? I do not know and Ido no t suppose tha t w e sha l l be able to find ananswer yet. If in a year of Queen Elizabeth I hadsaid to someone in London tha t I could show hi ma pic tu re of Philip of Spain in M a d r i d on a piece ofglass in his room, I would probably have beenbu rn t at the stake as a wiza rd , or as a witch if Iwere a woman. However, we can do tha t today.W e have broken t h r oug h . W e have th e miracle onearth of television, even from th e moon. . . .For a couple of genera tions now t housandsof magazines and so on have reported theses ightings . W e w a n t to know whether theseobjects that a re unidentif ied deserve realresearch in depth. W hether or not i t is true, onlyou r prejudices ca n decide, and i t becomes mored i f f i c u l t to listen to such weird experiences fromapparently honest , sane an d unself-seeking m enw ho place their findings before papers an dGoverments. Are w e right to call these m en liars,hallucina tors or sensationalists? If one hum anbeing out of the tens of thousands w ho allege tohave seen these phenomena is telling th e t r u t h ,then there is a dire need for us to look into th ematter.Those w ho believe in psychic phenomenaor spiritualism an d those w ho believe in thesynchronicity of ghosts as they try to expla inthem should not scoff at the possibility of theseunidentified objects. W e know tha t poltergeistsexist; w e know about their activities. Therefore,w e do not be so ready to scoff at UFOs w he n , inanother moment if I catch you talking, you willagree with m e that poltergeists exist. This is as e r i ou s Debate. It deserves s t u d y a n dunder s tand ing .8.30 p.m.T he Lord Bishop of NORWICH: M y Lords, Icoun t it a privilege to follow th e noble Viscount,Lord Oxfuird, and to link myself with th e words ofthe noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, in'congratu lat ing th e noble Viscount on his maidenspeech. At the beginning of his speech I jotteddow n t h a t I shou ld like to thank him for his "down-to-earth remarks ," but when he got r ight out to ACentauri I rea lised tha t th a t phrase was of no useanyway . However, we congra tula te h im and lookforward to hearing h is voice again an d often. . . .

It is r ight tha t we should g ive a cool andscientific look at all unidentified f l y i n g objects, no tonly becauseof natural curios ity, no t even only as I think th e noble Earl, Lord Kimberley,suggested becauseof nationa l security bu t alsofor reasons of scientific research. There wa s at ime when leaders in the Chu rch were not a lwaysso enthus ias t ic abou t pushin g out the frontiers ofknowledge as I believe we are today. I very mu chhope tha t such a searchwill continue. W hether ornot it shou ld be an infra-governmental s t u dy I amnot sure. W e shall listen with interes t to w hat thenoble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, says to us on tha t . Bu ttha t it should be s tud ied , an d seriously studied, Ibelieve to be t rue . . . .

I thin k that w e should be quite cool, firm andscientific and try to extend ou r knowledge in thisarea. But, with th e wealth of scientific,aeronautica l and eru dite knowledge in yourLordships' House, what is a bishop doing movingamong the var ious parts of this chequeredchessboard? I f e l t t h a t I wanted to share anxietieson a ra ther narrow level with your Lordships .Firs t , I believe that UFOs and the mys te ry. su r round ing them today a re helping to build u p aclimate of credul i ty a n d , in certa in cases, even ofsupers t i t ion, with th e danger of a sort of ersa tzs p i r i t u a l l y a l m o s t r e a c t i n g a g a i n s t t h eimpersonality of modem civilisation, but notw ho l l y i n vo l ve d i n t he t o t a l C h r i s t i a ncommitment , wh ich is a ba lanced comm itment . . .M y concern here today is tha t the my sterysurrounding UFOs today and I think it ishelped by the va r iety of fi lms and programmes onthe subject i s in danger of producing a 20thcentury supers t i tion in our m odern and scientificday s which is not unl ike th e supers t i t ion of pastyears. Tha t i s my f i rst anxiety. . . .

I see a certain danger of the linking of religionwith the UFO s i tua t ion at that level. SomeChristian researchers suggest tha t those w ho.become deeply involved in the religious aspects ofthe UFO s i tua t ion come under a psychicdomination which ca n cause serious distress tothem and to their personal l i f e . That is my anxiety.I may be wrong, but I put forward with some care,having thoug ht abou t i t and s tudied i t agood deal.Therefore, my third anxiety and I am sorry tobe negative but it is important to share both thel ight and the dark sides is the danger of thereligious aspect of the UFO situa tion leading toth e obscuring of basic Chris t ian truths . . . .

I sa y th i s in this debate recognising th edanger of , as i t were, preaching a sermon.However, I do not t h i nk t h a t is t rue in th i s casebecause the very subject w e a re debating ishelping to widen our horizons and the nobleViscount, Lord Oxfuird, stressed this point oflooking far but in his maiden speech. I believe tha tChris t has not on ly a terres t ia l , not only a cosmic

s ignif icance bu t literally a galactic significance. Ibelieve that He is God's vice-regent concerningHis great creative wo rld. It is good tha t ou r mindsan d eyes should be stretched fur ther ou t becauseI do not believe tha t at any point of the universewe get beyond the hand of God. Therefore, ithelps us to under s tand th e majesty of theGodhead w he n w e begin to stretch ou r minds toreach out to the far corners of creation. . . .8.36 p.m.Lord GLADWYN: M y Lords, I mu st beg inwith an apology. Before I knew tha t th e debatewas to s ta r t so late I entered into an obliga t ion fo rthis evening from which I find it d i f f i c u l t to escape.Therefore, I may be unable to s tay the course.On e happy th ing about UFOs- is tha t they havenothing wha tever to do with Party politics!Another is tha t they take one's mind off theabsolutely f r i g h t f u l everyday events. Besides tha t ,no theory as regards them ca n possibly belaugh ed out of court, nor need angels in respectofthem fear to tread! I am sure tha t the noble Lord,Lord Davies of Leek, would agree.Though many a l leged s ightings are ofidentifiable objects of terrestrial origin, such as

dis integra t ing satellites, balloons or meteors, oreven some sort of reflection, others are of th ing swhich , on the face of it, cannot be accounted fo rin th i s way . T he evidence of th is is obviously toocircumstant ia l to be disregarded. T he evidenceproduced by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty , an dmy noble friend Lord Kimber ley, is obviously toocircumstantia l . You cannot dis regard tha t . Theseth ings a lmost certainly do exist. It is d i f f i c u l t to saytha t they do not exis t . Therefore, unlike the nobleLord, Lord Trefgarne, I do .not contest theirexistence.Some objects m ay be of terrestrial origin, butequally some may not.W ha tever the i r o r ig in , thas certainly not as yet been proved t ha t theyconta in, or are controlled by, sentient being s ofan y sort. Still less has i t been dem onstra ted t h a tsuch sentient beings come from another planet,of which we are to ld the re ar e m a n y millions in theuniverse and no doubt many thousandson whichcondit ions may well be similar to thoseon earth . I tis conceivable, therefore, that UFOs come fromanother world; bu t t h a t , to say the least, i s notcertain or, let us say, is not yet certain. Let ustherefore for a moment examine th e terrestrialand t he non-terres tr ia l hypotheses.

If these objects are terrestrial, they comesomewhere from our world, then they mayconceivably be attributable to some condit ion ofth e atmosphere, or upper a tmosphere, unknownto us, producing electrical or s imila r phenomenawhich no doubt interfere with compasses and forsome reason dart about th e sky, sometimes evencoming to earth. The d i f f i c u l t y about such anexplanation is that they never seem to come intoactua l contact with aircraft, or any other a irborneobjects. Even if collisions have sometimes beensuspected, they have not been proved to haveoccurred. Nor, apparently, d o they ever crashin to any th ing impor tan t on the g round . Whenthey ar e alleged to have been seen on the g r oun dit is a lways , incidenta l ly, away from houses. Isuppose it is conceivable that they may becapable of passing r ight throu gh phy sica l objects ,their mindless trajectory being thereforeharmless , an d ' d ictated by some un k n ow nphysical cause, an d their apparent presence onth e ground being due to some local conditions onthe s urface. All I say is that this is a conceivablehypothes is . In any case, th e fact tha t theiroccasional presence is so far inexplicable doesnot in itself inva l ida te th e terrestrial hypothesis.There are, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies ofLeek, said, more things in Heaven than ar edreamt of in our philosophy. . . .

If these objects are not terrestrial, thenadmittedly, a lways supposing they exis t and a reno t mere i l lus ions , they must be of some non-terrestrial origin. We can, I thi nk, discard thepossibility that they come from any of the otherplanets , as was said by the noble Viscount, LordOxfuird, whose maiden speech we so muchappreciated; I hope we shall hear from hi m aga inshort ly . Venus is too hot, M a r s is a lifelesswilderness, and condit ions on the others areextremely unlikely to be compatible with an y formof l i f e .Thus , from whence do they come? They ca nonly come from a planet in some other starrysystem, of which the nearest, as the noble(continued on next page)


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(Parliament, Continued)Viscount said , is the s tar Pro xima Centa ur i ,which i s 4% l ight yea r s away . Always suppos ing,therefore, t h a t UFOs a re ma n n e d by sent ientbeings w ho t ravel at the speed of l ight and ifyou t rave l a t 186,000 miles a second, how do youslow down on approaching the ear th? (howwonde r fu l to imagine!) these c rea tu re s mus thave been cooped up in the i r small mach ine s fo rno less tha n 4-5 ter res tr ia l years before appear ingin ou r atmosphere . One can pe rhaps imag i ne t h a tthey may somehow have been able to escapefrom t ime and consequently n ot need anysus tenance or sleep, but i t is difficult , even on t h a thypothes is , to believe the i r machines aresomehow t ime-exempt and can consequentlycontain enough propellent to keep them s teadyon their millennary way . . . .There may be more s i gh t in gs now simplybecause we have better facilities for observingt hem. If so, what conc lu s ion mus t w e d r aw asregards th e wh ole non- ter res tr ia l hypothes is? It issimply t h a t these sent ient and obvious ly highlyintelligent beings from another planet , if s uch theybe, at the end of an in termin able journ ey, arecontent simply to hover about our atmosphereand no t a t t empt a l and i ng , or at leas t a landing ofwhich we ha ve any u ncontrover t ib le evidence.What could be the point of such strangeproceedings? These sentient and obviouslyintelligent beings mus t have picked up enoughinformat ion to conclude that a serious landingw as feasible or, if not feasible, then to abandonthe whole idea. Perhaps they may even in somemyster ious way have been able to master ourl anguage and penetrate ou r t h o u g h t s . I t h ink itw a s m y noble fr iend Lord Kimberley w ho saidthat conceivably they were . under some sort ofthought control f r o m a p lane t in theneighbourhood of Proxima Centaur i . If that is soand i t is simply a question of thou gh t control , thenit comes down apparent ly to a sort of cosmic jokebeing played by these sentient beings from 4%l i gh t yea r s away on the un fo r t una t e inhabitants ofthis globe; they are a sort of hal luc inat ion in t h a tthey induce us by thought control to believe int h e m . It is a conceivable theory but I do no t th inkit is a tenable one....

The more over-populated our planetbecomes, the greater the violence and the moreappalling the war s , the more, unconscious lyperhaps, w e w a n t to leave it if we can or t r u s t inother world ly in tervent ion; and the more intensetherefore the longing, the greater the temptat ionto believe tha t there a ctually issomewhere else towhich we can physically go or to which we cansomehow ma ke an appeal . I t was a g reatd isappointment when the moon was discoveredto be a mass of grey plas t ic ine , that Mars waseven more u npleasant than the m iddle of theSahara and t h a t Venus was the nearest th ing toHey.Wha t i s t he moral? I agree with th e r i gh treverend Prelate , who said so e loquen t ly we areindebted to him for his intervent ion thatperhaps the mora l is that we had better not putou r t r u s t in saucers fo r salvat ion but , ra ther ,concentrate on how best to conduct ourselveshere below so as to live in char i ty with ourneighbours an d eventually die in peace. If theUFOs contain sentient beings, we can only leave

4 it to such being to get in t ouch wi th us wh e n , an dif , t hey will. Up to n o w , if t hey ex i s t , t hey havedone no h a r m of any k ind . Apparen t l y they havedone n o ha rm fo r the last two o r t h ree thous a ndyea r s . So t h e r e seems to be no grea t need to setu p i n t r a - gove rnmen t a l ma c h i n e r y to inves t igateth e whole phenomena . T h e mys te ry m ay su i tablyremain a my s t e r y ,and so fa r as I can see no bodyw i l l be in any way the worse off if it does.

8:50 p.m.Lord K INGS NORTON: M y Lords , I s hou ldlike t o a dd m y t h a n k s to those which th e nobleEarl , Lord Clancar ty , ha s already received fo ropening th e debate in s u c h an ext reme lyin teres t ing w a y . I f ou nd my imag i na t i on boggl ing alittle at some of the t h i n gs he told u s.Nevertheless , I feel t h a t it is of immense va lue t h a tthis ma t t e r h a s been b rough t ou t i nto th e open bythe debate in the House, and I hope t h a t as aresul t of i t t he re will be some progress in theunde r s t and ing of w h a t i s an extremely ser iousmat te r . I feel t h a t w e m u s t be careful about ou rterminology in discuss ing the UFO problem, and Ibelieve t h a t I shall ma ke clear in the course of myr e ma r ks wh a t I mean by t h a t . Fo r example, in thepast few days, since i t was known to my f r iendst ha t I was to take par t in the debate, I have hadover and over again the question: Do you believein UFOs? I m u s t sa y t h a t I th ink t h a t is r a the r asilly ques t ion , because if I saw some th ing in thesk y which neither I, nor whoever happened to bewi th m e, could iden t i fyI have not , but let ussuppose t h a t I d i d t he n I should have seen anunident i f ied flying object, a UFO. I do not have tobelieve in it . I should believe merely that I had seeni tsometh ing t h a t I could no t explain ; and Ibelieve that many people are in that pos i t ion . .. .I am sure that m a n y a n d perhaps mostofth e s ight ings recorded and reported areterrestrial in origin: aeroplanes wi th navigat ionlights glowing a t nigh t; sate l l ite launchin g rocketsbu rn i ng up on re-entry; remotely piloted vehicles,no w beginning to be called RPVs; up on trialflights; weather balloons; trick reflections of light .In th e extra- ter res tr ia l class I am afraid t h a t Icannot t h i nk of anyth in g other than meteor ites ,Northern Lights an d ball l i ghtn ing, bu t there a reprobably other well known physical phenomenawi th in th e knowledge of as tronomers andmeteorologis ts .I feel, however , that some of the reports w ehave had and we can f o r t he time being leaveout Ezekielare not readi ly explained in te rms of

1 any of the possibilities which I have mentioned.The New Zealand phenomena are wo r t h mu c hmore inves t igat ion than th ey have yet had, but sofar , in so far as I have been able to unde r s tn adw h a t has been reported, they do not appear to beexplicable in te rms of any of the sugges t ionswhich I have so far made . Tha t seems to gofor thequite extraord inary ,w idespread s igh t ings recentlyin Italy, where hund red s of people as reasonableas you and I, my Lords, seem to have seen qu i teinexplicable t h ings in the sky . It wou ld bewor thwhi l e t ry ing to exp la in them , and if there are-people wh o know w ha t they are , they ough t to tellus . The high probability i n my mind is that theyare ter res tr ia l in or ig in , and the only extra-terrestrial possibilities do not seem to be feasiblebecause of the very eccentric paths which the

objects, or l ights , which were seen seem to havetaken. But if t hey a re te r res tr ia l phenomena, w eough t t o be able to identify t h e m .I believe t h a t any dispass ionate inves t igat ion ,s uch as I u n d e r s t a n d th e noble Earl , LordClancar ty , would wish to have, could no t i gno rethe possibili ty of the phenomena hav ing the i ror i g i n s ou t s ide the ea r th and pe rhaps ou t s ide thesolar sys tem. Just as meteor i tes are chancemate r i a l project i les or ig inat ing in the solars y s tem, m ay t h e r e not be r a n d o m ma t t e r o f a

d i ffe ren t c ha r a c t e r p e r h a p s a luminous bu ti n s u b s t a n t i a l c h a r a c t e r t h a t i n c e r t a i nc i r cums t ances becomes visible a n d a t t r ac ted toou r area? I cer ta inly s hou ld be r e ad ie r to acceptsome exp lana t ion in t e rms of w h a t I migh t call th ea t s r onomica l phenomena t h a n sh ips f rom o u t e rspace. I t wou ld , I suppose, be foolish to deny t h a tpossibili ty, but as an exp lana t ion of p h e n o me n a and I th ink that the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn,exposed t h i si t is su re ly a very long shot indeed.

I f we are to c o n d u c t any d i spas s iona tei n q u i r y a n d I th ink t h a t w e s h o u l d w e m u s tlisten to the proponen t s of w h a t one might ca l l th eSfar T r e k view. It can be a r g u e d , no tunrea sonab l y , t h a t we i n ou r h u mb l e w a y a r eprobing nea rby so l ar space wi th ou r V e n u s a n dJup i t e r and o the r veh icu lar probes. W e h a v eventu r ed on t o t he M o o n . I s i t no t p r e s u mp t u o u s ,t h e a r g u me n t goes, to suppose that e lsewhere inspace c rea tu re s more advanced th an us areprobing in to ou r space, probing wi th means n owoccasional ly visible t o us , u s i n g the i r ow n RP V s ,controlled from s t a t ion s l i gh t years away , r a the ron the lines wh i c h th e noble Earl, Lord Kimberley.ment ioned? It is a poss ib i l i ty wh ich w e m u s t beprepared to cons ider . It is a possibili ty, t hough n otm a n y of us, I feel, would call it a probability.... Thedesirability of gett ing rat ional and acceptableexplanat ions fo r the odd phenomena wh ich a rebeing r epo r ted even if , like some other para-no rma l phenomena, they a re subjectivein m yopinion i s not , or should n ot be, merely to satisfyou r cur iosi ty. . . .There is a social danger , in my view, inleaving people in ignorance of the or igins of thesephenomena . I have recently learned f rom an u mb e r of sources t h a t t he re have g rown up, inNorth America particularly, many groups andcul ts whose a t t i t ude s are based on beliefs t h a tUFOs a re in f luen t ia l outer-spat ia l ma nifes tat ionsin teres ted in th i s ea r th . In some cases theseg roups are looking to outer space for Man ' ssa lvat ion. If t h i s is right, i t is r a the r d i s tu rb ing .

I find, too, that in th is country there a regroups in teres ted, other than purely scientifically,in the UFO phenomena . I had a l e tt e rand It h i nk that other noble Lords may have had thesame let ter ear l ier th is week from anecumenica l Chris t ian group which bel ieves ,among o the r t h ings , t h a t UFOs menace thespi r i tua l heal th of the na t ion ; t h a t t hey a re ant i -Chr i s t i an a n d t h a t i n fo rma t i on exis ts about themwhich is being wi th h e ld . It seems to me that th isassociation of UFOs with mystic ism an d religionmakes explanat ion of the t rue or ig ins of thephenom ena a m atter of great importance and ofsome urgency. The sooner that each reporteds ight ing o r landing is satisfactorily explained, th ebetter. It is no good jus t laughing them off ort ry ing to laugh them off; w e m u s t seek th e t r u t h(continued on next page) 7


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(Parliament, Continued)an d tell it.M y Lords, I remain sceptical, perhaps moresceptical than anyone wh o h a s spoken thisevening except the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. Iremain sceptical of the more bizarre extra-terres tr ia l explana tions . 1 remain more thansceptical, indeed, incredulous , of wha t the nobleEarl in his M otion ca l led " landings"; but I supporthi m wholeheartedly in his wish for a seriousinqui ry. I hope tha t the Government w i l l takesteps to put such an inqui ry in hand . Finally, Icome back to the mat te r of terminology. In hisMot ion , th e noble Earl called for "an in t ra-governmenta l s tudy . " T he noble Lord, LordTrefgarne, and, I think, th e noble Lord, LordGladwyn , took this to be an inter-governm enta ls tudy . Bu t " in t r a" means "within." I was puzzledby the use of the prefix, bu t t h a t is w ha t it meansand presumably w hat the no ble Earl meant. Butwhy a s t u dy within th e Government? I w ou l dsupport the idea of a Government-supportedopen investiga t ion by a carefully chosen group ofscientists and technologists with some f unds a tthei r disposal; but a s tudy within Governmentwould seem to smack of a secret probe, whichwou ld be no good at all.1 have n o objection to a House of Lords s tud ygroup, bu t they could scarcely perform in the waytha t a public organisation supported, say, by thelearned societies and the engineering ins t i tu t ions ,could perform. It is something of tha t kind tha t Ishould l ike to see brought into being underGovernment or with Government support: agroup of dispass iona te people with th e power, th emoney and staff on a modest scale to investig ate.Perhaps in his reply later this evening the nobleLord, Lord Strabolgi, w i l l comment on thesuggestion.9.4 p.m.Lord RANKEILLOUR: M y Lords, f i r s t , Imus t thank th e noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, fo rthis debate, the subject of which has long neededan a ir ing ; and, a l though th e noble Viscount, LordOxfuird, is not in his seat , nevertheless Icongra tula te him on his speech. The UFO saga isdeep an d complex an d there are no knownexperts to keep us up to da te with every th ing todo wi th it including it s mechanics. However,scientis ts throug ho ut the world have been draw nin to an ever- increas ing discuss ion as to whatUFOs are and where they come from, so fa r withlittle enough resul ts except to wonder why thebounds of na tur a l phys ics seem to be broken onal l sides,,,Most W es te rn Governments sa y t h a tUFOs do not exist, but I t h i nk tha t th e FrenchMinis ter of Defence, M.Robert Galley, inFebruary, 1974, sa id tha t they do; tha t hisGovernment takes them seriously and tha t theyhave been studied secretly by a specialdepartment for over 20 year s . Indeed, Franceleads the world in UFO research. It has followedu p s ightings with pol ice teams, scientists an dscholars and, s ince 1950, the Deuxieme Bureauof the Army.. . .Is it not curious tha t we of the 20th centur y,with a vast knowledge of science behind us ,should be blind to fur ther won ders in the skiesabove? M en t h r oug hou t th e world have beenbranded as mad o r mistaken when they have

8

reported having seen s t r ange s ights in theheavens . Many m en have seen these s ights an dhave n ot been mistaken. Who a re we to doubttheir word? W h o a r e Governments tha t dare toridicule th e honest? No t long ago the Loch Nessmonster was regarded as a fable, but now ourleading na tu ra l i s t says t h a t it (or they , poss ibly)probably exis ts . Why, then, should unidentifiedf l y i n g objects be any ha rder to believe, especiallyas they have been seen fa r more frequent ly? M yLords, of cour se they exis t . Only a few weeks agoa Palermo policeman photographed one, and fourItalian Navy officers aboard a light patrol boat inth e Adria t ic, in the early hours of the morn ing ,s aw a 300-yard long f i e r y craft r is ing from the seaand disappearing into th e sky. Odd, s trange,f r ightening , bu t apparently quite true. Indeed,why should these men of law enforcement anddefence lie? Of cour se , they did not lie.Why .should they; especia l ly as in this case theirs ight ing was backed up by men from a nearbyradar s ta t ion who saw it , too.Each y ear there ar e many s igh ting s of UFOsth roughou t th e world. Some of them ar e veryclose a t h a n d , whi le others are not, but a lways theeffect upon t hose who see th em is one of concern;and yet thi s very point is ignored and ridiculed bymost Governments r ight aro un d the globe. In theUnited Kingdom's case, t hose w ho report seeingUFOs a re taken to be misinformed, misguidedan d rather below par in intelligence. If this is so,why has some of my in forma t ion on this subjectbeen g iven to me by the M inis try of Technology?W hy should this Minis try waste i ts t ime ga th eringfalse information? Of cou rse , it is n o t . falseinformat ion: it is da ta reported by c i v i l and AirForce pilots, policemen, sailors and members ofthe genera l public who have a l l had personalexperience wh ich has intr igued and/or fr ightenedthem.. . .T he noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, who is towind up this debate, is no doubt sympathetic toth e reasons for these speeches, for it has becomepatent ly obvious to a great many people that thissubject had got to the point when G overnmenta lexplana tions mu st be forth comin g . A grea termeasure of open government is long overdue,and bring ing the UFO saga into the rea lm ofrespectability would be one way of achieving this ,in pa r t . I suspect tha t th e British Governm ent dohave a Department s tudy ing UFO sightings , forw hy else should th ey bother to g o to such troubleto publicly debu nk reported ones if they are of nointeres t to them? Qu ite apart from th e fact tha tthe Government have not admitted to theexistence of UFOs, these machines ar epotentially dangerous . They g ive of f blinding light,crippling rays and sometimes beams t h a timmobilise humans; they s ta r t fores t fires,eradicate crops an d cause grea t dist ress toanimals . If the British pouplat ion w as aware ofthis , they could sometimes take precautions .UFOs have been with us for many genera tions , sois it not about t ime tha t w e o f f i c i a l l y recognisedtheir existence an d treated reports as less of a hotpota to than hither to?. . .9.14 p.m.Lord GAINFORD: . ..My main contr ibutio nto this debate is to assu re th e noble Earl, LordClancarty, of any support tha t I can give. If we are

going to have a s tudy g roup in your Lordships 'House I shall be glad to be a volun teer to take partwhenever I have th e oppo r t un i t y . I a lso than k hi mand others fo r init iat ing this debate, and for thepleasure of having such a refreshing subject todiscuss in the midst of the present period of crisesand strikes... .I f I had the t ime an d opportunity, I shouldenjoy volunteering fo r work ing in a UFOinformat ion center , if tha t might be a suggestedname for the organisa t ion tha t would be required.

I shall be interested to hear th e summing s up inthis debate. I can give no explana tion why thereshould be these phenomena concentra ted withinpar t icula r ly th e past 32 years as was confirmed bythe noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and these f l y i n gsaucer s in the year 1947 when the ph ra se w ascoined; but Iwould jus t accentua te wh at has beensaid before and add tha t if they a re man-made orsome as tronomica l fea ture, an d provided there isno risk of any security breach, then th e publichave a r ight to know about them.9.20 p.m.The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, incommon with everyone else who has spoken, Ishould like to thank the noble Earl, LordClancarty, for giving us an opportunity to have, asit were, a scamper over th e cour se and exchangeviews on this very interesting and controversialtopic....: (The Earl of Halsbury recoun ted severalinstances of personal1 s ightings of "angels,"zeppelins, sundogs , and "green flashes."-Ed.)

Lastly, I come to ball lightning. I have neverseen ball l ightning , but the description on e readsof it is so coh erent, so sim ilar in allcases, tha t onemust accept it as a phenomenon which occursregular ly in na ture, though we cannot reproduceit in na tu re an d a ttempts to reproduce it in thelaboratory are, to my m ind, unconvincing . Thereis no theory of it. It appears to take th e form of afootball-shaped mass,of glowing g as which hopsaroun d or , if i t has a chance, gets on to aconductor such as the rail in the gallery here an dmigra tes a long th e conductor until it finallydisappears with a bang. It has never beensatisfactorily photographed, to my knowledge. Ifit ha s been, then the photograph must be a f a i r l yrecent one, and, as I say, it has no t beenreproduced. Bu t this, again, should assure .thenoble Earl, Lord Kimberley, that, faced with anunknown phenomenon which I cannot explain, Ido no t get vertigo. I shou ld be delighted to go balll ightning wa tch ing , as I go bird watching . . . .Lord HEWLETT: M y Lords, I join othernoble Lords in congr a tula t ing he noble Viscount,Lord Oxfui rd , upon h is maiden speech but I runthe terrible risk of being accused by the nobleLord, Lord .Davies of Leek, of being ananthropological arrogant specimen. I am notquite sure what tha t means , and I am not quitesure tha t he knows what i t means. . . .

I am only sorry to appear to be a veritableDaniel in a lions' den of UFO believers and to spoilth e f un , and I have no doubt tha t today's flightsofd are I say it?fancy w i l l command fa r moreattention than ou r debate yesterday upon Brit ishindustry, which scarcely made today's Press atall. More's th e pity. Of course, there is a danger interminology and in gross assumptions. M a n y(continued on next page)


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(Parliament, Continued)noble Lords have spoken as t h o ug h UFOs wereac tual ly someth ing , but of course we a re preciselysay ing t ha t i f t hey a re un iden t i f ied flying objects ,we do not know w ha t t hey a r e . So Iqu i te agree, le tu s dismiss1 th e concept of flying saucer equa l sUFO to s ta r t w i th. Let us t ry to take a s l igh t lymore scientif ic approach .

I would no t dr eam of speak ing in t h i s deba tehad I not asked my very good fr iend andn e i g h b o u r in the Chesh i r e village of S w e t t e n h a m ,Si r Bernard Lovell, Fellow of the Royal Societya nd N u f f ield Professor of R a d i o As t r o n o m y , to begood enough t o brief me a t Manches t e rUnivers i ty Depa r tment of Radio As t r onomy a tJodrel l Bank, of which he is the Direc to r . I w e n tthere tw o days ago and w h a t I am about to say toyour Lo rdsh ips i s based enti re ly upon t ha t r oundt able meet ing wi th Sir Bernard and the membersof his senior staff at Jodrell Bank: Of all thethousands of reports of s ight ing s tha t have beenmade, whenever i t has been possible to m a k e aninves t igat ion t hey have been found t o be na t u r a lphenomena, o r in some instances, I regret to say,pur e m yth . Over t he Uni t ed K ingdom, Jodr e l lBank's r ad io telescope, th e first and still one of themos t powerfu l in the wor ld, has observedthousands of possible subjects fo r identification

. a s UFOs, but not a single one has proved o therthan natura l phen omena. I wou ld ask the nobleEar l , Lord Kimber ley, to take th e point on board.If UFOs, as he suggested, defy h u m a nknowledge , how do we r ea l l y know by wha tpossible means or possible background they evenexist at all?...: (Lord H ewlett pointed ou t the largenumber o f rockets and associated ha r dwa re i nspace, meteor i te falls, and an associa t ion ofVenus w i t h UFO sightings.--Ed.)One of the most advanced exper iment a ls ta t ions a t Jodrell Bankju s t t ake these statisticson board please, m y Lords h as been on watch24 hours a day fo r 30 years . Do you not t h i nk itreasonable for me to sugges t t ha t if there wereUFOs a t least on e c l aim w ould have been ma d e ,but every single t h i n g t h a t h a s been seen andobserved by radio ast ronomy ha s been identif ieda s na tu r a l phenomena a n d a s occur r i ng from th eun iver se itself a s we know i t I do not say f romth e solar system; I say f rom ou r universe. If t he r ewere something in i t a n d th e noble Earl, LordHa l sbur y , i s so r i g h tof course th e scientistswould have been del ighted to come f o rwa rd wi than announcement to t ha t effect. After a l l , i t wasJodrel l Bank tha t managed to locate the Sputn ikwh en t he Russ i ans , who so c l ever l y l a unched i t ,lost track of it in the atmosphere. So do not t h i nktha t this is some den i g r a t i ng comment by thescientific lobby an d some nas ty , cheap debun k ingexercise. N o my Lords. W e mus t t ake a seriousscientific view of the actua l surveys and of w h a thas been discovered....: (Lo rdDavieso f Leekandth e Earl of Kimberly inter jected to d i spu te th econtent ion tha t no thing remained unident i f ied ,and the la t ter to suggest Jodrel l Bank might bepart of a cover-up.-Ed.)

I t h i nk t ha t it would be most unwise of anydefence establ ishment to make a categoricaldenia l ofUFOs,and equally foolish of me to do so.I am no t t r y ing to prove th e existence of n o t h i n gor tha t something does not exist. I am saying tha tin th e scientif ic evidence so f a r a n d I can deal

only in de t a i l wi t h t h e U n i te d K i n g d o m t h e r e isn o evidence whatever from th e grea test r adiotelescope of a s ing le UFO. I t h i n k t h a t th ea t t i t ude s of de f e n c e e s t a b l i s hm e n t s world-wide ,even i n c l ud ing th e Soviet Uni on , a re probab lywise; they m u s t d i splay the ant i thes i s o f over-conf idence a nd c o m p l a c e n c y , lest t h e r e s ho u l dperchance be some new a rm o f wa r f a r e t h a t t h e yhave no t a dequ a te l y explo r ed o r even en te r ed .Bu t t he r e is no d i rec t connec t ion be tweenth e possibi li ty of o t he r persons o c c up y i n g o t h e rbodies , ei ther wi t h i n o r ou t s i de our own solarsys t em. How ever , one t h i n g is qu i t e c l ea r : t he r e isa n i n f in i t es imal c ha n c e t h a t t he r e ex i s t s o t he rpeople w ho could be wi th in ou r t i me - f r ame and Irefer of cour se to the s t a t e m e n t s m a de by thenoble Lord, Lord G l a d w y n , and t he noble Ear l ,Lord H a l s b u r y w h o w o u l d be ab l e to spendperhaps ten or h u n d r e d s of l i ght yea r s g e t t i n ghere and who would have su rv ived t h a t l eng th o ft ime in t ho se a t r oc ious cond i t i ons a nd en te r edo u r ea r t h a tmosphere a s suming t h a t t h e y a r esome sor t of h u m a n i t y and have some form offlying saucer , o r wha tever ou r f r iends procla im itit . How could they possibly meet u s in t ho sec i r cums t ances? Let us t ake th e mil l ion- to-onepossibi li ty t ha t t hey cou l d . Do yo u r L o r d s h i p smean t o tell me tha t they could get so close to usas to be s i gh t ed , but be i ncapab l e of any form ofc o m m u n i c a t i o n or iden t i f icat ion w ha t e v e r ? No, Ia m sorry . . . .

I am s o r r y , th e existence of UFOs is evenmore fanciful t h a n Gilber t a nd Sull ivan ' sl o l a n t h e c h a r m i n g i n de e d , but I am afr a id a jokeupon your Lo rdsh ips ' House . I am afr a id t h a tsome of my noble f r iends jo in th e f la t -ea r ther s ,w h o w i l l m a k e th e bes t p l ayma tes fo r th i spar t i cu la r l obby . W e have a du ty to t he coun t r y t oexplode t he m yth . Ton i gh t we have been car r iedaway in rea lms of fasc inat ion and de l i gh t , bu t t h e yhave precious little to do wi th th e facts . I sugges tt h a t t he my th mus t be exploded . W e mus t r e t u r nto work in t h i s d r ea r y o ld world and t he difficult ieswe are in. But I beg your Lo rdsh ips , and inpar t icula r th e noble Lord, Lord Strabolg i , fo rheavens' sake, no more G o v e r n m e n tDepa r tment s of inqui r ies . Th at a lone w e shou l dbe spared as the resul t o f t h i s excel lent debate.9.55 p.m.T he Earl of CORK and OR R ER Y: M y Lords,I hope t ha t th e noble Earl , Lord Cl anca r t y , w i l l notbe cast do w n by t he speech to w h i c h he h a s ju s tl i s tened. I myself must confess t h a t I knowremarkab ly little about unident i f ied f ly in g objects.I know a few t h i ng s abou t t hem . 1 k n o w q u i t e a bit,and I have learned more s ince th e beg inn ing ofth i s deba te, a bou t a t t i t udes t owa rds t hem . Theyare a lmos t as in terest ing in so r tie ways. There ison e t ype of a t t i t u de t o w a r d s t h e m t h a t I view wi threspect, a n d t h a t is t he a t t i t u de r epr esen ted bypeople w h o call t hemse lves , or per haps to be f a i rar e called by others , "ufo log is t s ." I do not knoww he t he r th e noble Ear l w i l l accept tha t word. Ir a t he r hope h e w o u l d n o t .

I a d m i t th e c h a r m , th e sa t i s f ac t i on , and th eneatness of UFO a s t h i s i s the word the nobleLord, Lord Davies of Leek, is so good a t a nacronym, coming f rom "unident i f ied flyingobject." But it u nfo r tu na te ly leads to a wordwhich to d i s r espec t f u l persons, a n d t he r e a re

some a b o u t , m i g h t be suspected a s o r i g i na t i ngsomewhere between i l l i teracy and th e pu re ly s i l l y ;r a t h e r a s t h o u g h a k e en s t u d e n t of the a f f a i r s o fth e Uni ted N a t i o n s s ho u l d d e s c r ib e h imse l f a s a"Uno log i s t , " and h i s inte res t "Uno logy . " T h a tw o u l d have been sever l y d i s t r e s s i ng to my l a tel ame nte d fr iend Lord Cones fo r d , a n d i ndeed tome.. . .I m u s t m a k e a r e m a r k n o b o d y ha s d o n e soso f a r , I suspec t r a t h e r to h i s s u r p r i s e a b o u t th espeech of my noble f r iend Lord Tre fga rne . If heh a d been speak ing a s a p r iv a t e Back Bencher Iw o u l d probab ly have not said a n y t h i n g , but hew a s s p e a k i n g f rom th e Dispa tch Box . Th e re fo re ,h e p r e s um a b l y r e p r e s e n ts th e views of the Pa r tyto w h i c h I belong . It is a view 1 wi s h to d i s o w nen t i r e l y , because if a P a r t y of a n y m a g n i t u d ec a n n o t produce be t t e r v iews t h a n t h a t o n ase r i ous sub jec t , I confes s I am a s h a m e d of i t . I f t h i s

represents a ll t h a t the Conservat ive Par ty canp r o duc e in the way of t h i n k i n g on wh a t i su n d o u b t e d l y a se r i ous subjec t , w ha t e v e r yo u ropinion a b o u t it may be , t h e n t h i s is deplo r ab l e .I f th e noble Lord r eal ly t h i n k s t h a t t h e r e i s nose r i ous i n t e r es t o r belief t ake n n o w a d a y s i nwi tc h c r a f t , perhaps h e does no t read th e r i gh t

newspaper s , but 1 can a s s u r e h im t ha t th i s is farf rom t r u e . He is not a believer in un iden t i f ied flyingobject s . "I am no believer i n UFOs," h e sa id. I d onot k n o w how you can no t believe in UFOs. Y ouca n t ake it for g r a n t e d , if yo u r m i n d t a k es a leapahead , t h a t by an un iden t i f ied flying objectsome th i ng i s i n t e n de d t h a t is supposed to haveoriginated in o u t e r space, and you can-say y o u d ono t believe in t h a t . But I do not k n o w w ha t itimplies 10 sa y t h a t you do not believe in anun iden t i f ied f l y i n g object. You do not believe in it sobject? You do not believe in i ts f ly ing? You donot believe it is un iden t i f i ed? T he r e a re t h i n g s h a ta re unident i f ied . Perhaps we are not t r y i ng . I d onot t h i n k it is reasonable to say t ha t they do no texist . Nobody, except m y noble f r iend LordHewlet t , ha s se r i ous ly contended t h a t t h e y do n o texis t . The ques t i on is , wh a t a r e t hey? . ..

(In response to an interjection by LordTrefg arne): I am a n x i o u s not to m i s q uo t e h i m ,bu the also said tha t u fo log i s tsi t is d i f f i c u l t not tou s e t h a t w o r d r e f e r r e d t o unexpl a ined s i gh t i ng swhich would be expl a ined if only we had bet terevidence; tha t was the g is t of one pa r t of my noblef r iend ' s a r g u m e n t . In o ther wo rds , if we h ad bet terevidence we should be able to expla in thoses i gh t i n gs . T ha t is the sole point on wh i c h th enoble Earl ini t i a ted th i s deba te . Tha t is w h a t he isask ing fo r ; he w ishes evidence to be co l lected,collated, examined , eva l ua t ed a nd reported on a sto wh a t these t h ing s a r e, and i t i s no t ab le t ha t h ehimself did not say w h a t he thought they were.Other noble Lords have spoken a s t h o ug h he hadsa id t hey were fairies or I do not know w h a t , w he nin fact he said no such t h ing . I believe he is aleading a u t ho r i t y o n these mat te r s c e r t a i n ly heh as s t ud ied t hem mo re c l ose ly t ha n anyone elseof w ho m I ha v e he a r d a n d he mus t haveexercised very grea t rest ra int in th is mat te r , a ndhe i s to be cong r a t u l a t ed on t h a t a s well as onin i t ia t ing the whole debate....The noble Earl has done a service bydisplaying before ou r very eyes th e scient is t -phi losopher who knows precisely the l imits of

(continued on page


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(Parliament, Continued)science and makes no e f f o r t to go beyond them.Nor does he point the finger of scorn at anyoneelse. He m ust know , as others know, that i t i simpossible to prove a ny thin g by negativeevidence. If you wish to prove that something isnot so you can do i t only in logicby proving th eexistence of something that is so that makes thatf i r s t premise impossible. Thus, yo u cannot provetha t any part icular type of f l y i n g object does no texist, an d with respect to my noble fr iend, th e facttha t th e Jodrell Bank telescope has not seensomething not only does not prove, but is noteven particularly good evidence, that it was notthere. I am prepared to accept, if to ld , that th eJodrell Bank telescope has been operating on afrequency suited to the observation of UFOs ofone kind or another for the last 30 years, but , unt i lI am to ld tha t , I shall be sceptical in that mat ter.Lord HEW LETT: Let me be quite clearabout th is , m y Lords. I did no t say other than thatJodrell Bank had made many thousands ofsight ings but had been able adequa tely to explainthem away as natu ral phenomena from ou r ownuniverse.The Earl of CORK and ORRERY: I t hough ttha t I had my noble friend r i gh t , my Lords; inother words, th e telescope has not seen any th ingthat w as inexplicable.But I do not th ink t h a t t h a ti s really an argument that something does notexis t . The question is : w h a t kind of th ing can i t be?I hope t h a t my noble friend does not think t h a t Iam go ing on about h i m I no longer am. How is tpossible to m ain tain mo re tha n a certain degree ofdoubt in 1979?...

I have no w ish to express any view on w hat aUFO may be. W h a t I wish to say is that there is noknowing wh a t it is not.It may be a product ofsome kind of sign language, as the noble Earl,Lord Kimberley, ment ioned. I t may bemechanical. It may be purely terrestrial. I doubt ifit is angels. But I believe th at, for the clearing up ofmystery , for the removal of doubt , fo r even th eeliminating of some of the dangers which ma yexist and to which the right reverend Prelaterefer red, some kind of an open inquiry ough t to beset u p. I am ra t he r inclined to agree with th e nobleLordI th ink that it was the noble Lord, LordKing s Nor tonwho said that probably it shouldnot be an intra-governmenta l inqui ry. I think itshould be something ra ther more open than that ,but it o u g h t to take place. If a g ro u p is set upwithin th is House, as suggested by the noble Earlhimself, t h a t would be excellent. I shou ld myselfbe entirely in favour of it. In any case, let us getthis ma tter cleared up and in to the open, and bya ll means let us take it seriously , because th is is aserious subject. Far too ma ny people ar e taking tseriously for it not to be a serious subject. . . .

I have no t yet said any th ing complimentaryabout th e noble Earl who initiated th e debate. Ihave l e f t th is to the end on purpose because It h i nk it may n ot be entirely realised wh a t a servicehe has done. This is the f i r s t such debate t h a t hasoccurred in any socie ty such as th is part icularone; and this society, but wh ich I mean th is nobleHouse of Par l i amen t , is probably th e onlylegislative assembly in the world in which it couldhappen. I hope that it w i l l have repercussionswhich w i l l spread fa r beyond th is Cham ber. Whatth e outcome w i l l be I do not know, bu t , in init iat ing10

th e ripples which I hope w i l l spread al l over th esurface of the mill-pond, th e noble Earl has done amost valuable service.-I ';.10 . 10p .m.Lord STRABOLGI: M y Lords, I should l i k eto join with th e noble Earl, Lord Cork an d Orrery ,in saying how grateful we are to the noble Earl,Lord Clancarty , fo r initiating this debate onUFOs. Of course, the subject has been ofconsiderable interest in t h i s coun t ry , and I hopeou r discussions, which, as the noble Earl r ight lysaid, have been th e f i r s t t h a t w e have had in y o u rLordships' House, w i l l help to increase publicunderstanding. . . .There a re undoub ted ly many s t rangephenomena in the skies, and it can be readilyaccepted that most UF O reports are made bycalm and responsible people. However, there areg e n e r a l l y s t r a i g h t f o r w a r d e x p l a n a t i o n s t oaccount for the phenomena, as I think was said byth e noble Lord, Lord T refgarne, speaking for theOpposi t ionand I must sa y t h a t I welcomed hi sconstructive speech. There is . no th ing toconvince the Government that there has everbeen a s ingle visit by an alien space craft, let alon eth e numbers of visits wh ich th e noble Earl, LordClancarty , c la ims ar e increasing all the t ime. Ashas been said today, w e live in a huge u niverse. Ifind as awe-inspi ring as Pascal did thecontemplation of i n f i n i t e space. There are some100,000 million stars in our galaxy alone, which itwould take 100,000 years to cross at the speed ofl ight. Beyond our own galaxy, the distancesbecome even more daunting . . . .The evidence suggests that there is nointelligent l i f e on the other planets of our ownsolar system, as the noble Viscount said. Thereare, of course, d i f f e r e n t views about whetherthere migh t be l i f e elsewhere in the universe, bu tcertainly there is no serious positive evidence toshow tha t t he re is. If there were an advancedcivilisation elsewhere in the universe , as my noblefriend Lord Davies of Leek supposed, with th etechnology to traverse these colossal distances,there are man y quest ions to be answ ered. W hat isth e point of th is a lleged hug e number of visits toour planet, over three decades or more, to noapparent purpose? There seem to be in ternalinconsistencies in the idea. To put it simply , ifthese alleged aliens prefer to keep out of the wa y ,th e number of reported s ight ings would surely beonly a t iny port ion of the ac tua l UF O movements,which wou ld ru n i n to many millions. I f they do notprefer to pass unn ot iced, we could sure ly expectunmistakeable appearances.W hy have they never tried to communicatewith us? W hy has there been n o evidence on rad ioof at tempts at commun ica t i on? An d wou ld no tsuch a large number of movements be picked upby our defence radar system? Why has not asingle artefact been found? Assumin g that eachvisit does not represent a journey from a d i s t an ts ta r , wh e re a re these alien space craft supposedto be hid ing? Now th at the idea of such bases onth e moon or on ano ther planet in our solar systemis barely tenable, ufologists have had to claim t h a tth e aliens are based in the depths of the sea or in agreat hole in the earth, or even that they comefrom invisible universes an d other space-timecon t inua . Anyone w ho accepts th e hypothesis of

la rge numbers of alien visitations seems forcedtowards explanat ions that are ever morefantastic, an d incapable of either proof ordisproof.As I have said, there really ar e m a n yremarkable th ings to see in the sky; and mostUFO reports relate to actual phenomenareported by sensible people....: (Lord Strabolgireitera ted the many na tural phenomena thatcould be reported as UFOs, citing tw o recentexamples th at he said could be explained tha tway.-Ed.) All these phenomena can be misinterpretedby the most sensible observers, particularly whenseen unexpectedly an d b r i e f l y and in u n u su a latmospheric cond itions. This is wh at opponentsof th e natural explanat ions forget. Withdistortions of l ight, an d mirages, th e mostcommonplace th ings can be so changed as to bebarely recognisable. For instance, I am to ld thatth e US. Ai r Force attributed th e 1947 s ight ing byArnold described by the noble Earl, LordClancarty , to a mirage effect....M y Lords, in 1968, the United States AirForce commissioned the University of Coloradoto carry out an independent study in to UFO

phenomena. Their report, which was published n1969, was very substantial and detailed and itcovered some 50 examples of such phenomena,bu t added t h a t i t was impossible an d potentiallymisleading to try to. tabulate all of the possiblecauses of UFO perception: there are simply toomany . The report's main conclusion was, and Iquote:"Nothing has come from the study of UFOs

in the past 21 years that has added to scientificknowledge."The f indings of this report were endorsed by apanel of the National Academy of Sciences.There really are tens of thousand s of strangeth ing s to be seen. It is the custom to call suchphenomena "UFOs," and to t ranspose this easilyinto "alien space craft." Often the appearance isto o fleeting and the description to o imprecise fo ra part icular cause to be at t r ibuted. Wh at we cansay is that there is a great variety of plainexplanat ions. T here is no need, I suggest , for thefar-fetched hypothesis of alien space craft... .T he recent sightings n New Zealand referredto by the n oble Lord, Lord Kings Norton,at t rac ted worldwide publicity, and we understandtha t the New Zealand Government may ma ke anannouncemen t when t he facts have beenassembled and appraised. Preliminary advicefrom ou r High Commission in New Zealandshows confident expectat ion that the s ight ingsw i l l prove to be due to na tu ra l phenomena, as Ith ink the noble Lord, .Lord Trefgarne, and thenoble Earl, Lord Halsbury , implied.My Lords, th e noble Earl w ho initiated thisdebate referred to the attitude of otherGovernments to UFOs. It is not for m e to speak inthis House fo r other Governments. I havehowever a lready made ment ion of the UnitedStates s t udy in 1968 and I unde rs t and t h a tnoth ing has happened s ince that t ime to cause th eUnited States autho ri t ies to change their views orto wa r r a n t fur ther o f f i c i a l investiga t ions of UFOs.

(Continued on next page)


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(Parl iament, Continued)T h e noble Earl also re fe r red to an interviewwhich the t hen French Min i s t e r o f Defence, M .Rpbert Galley gave in 1974 on the sub jec t of

UFOs. T h e noble Earl sugges t ed t ha t M . Galleyh a d sa id tha t UFOs were rea l bu t t h a t he, theM inis ter , d id not know where they came f rom. Ihave read th e t r a n s c r i p t of M . Gal l ey ' s b r o adca s tand I also took th e t r o ub l e to c he c k i t in theor ig inal French . T h e essence of w h a t th e Min i s t e rsa id w a s t ha t t he phenomena were genu ine andwere reported by responsible people, bu t t h a tt he r e were aspects t ha t were d i f f i c u l t to expla in.Nowhere did the Mini s t e r say t ha t UFOs werereal in the sense tha t they represent a l ienspacecraft , as sug gested by the noble Lord, LordRankei l lour . . . .

I t ha s been sugg ested in t h i s deba te t ha t ou rGovernment a re involved in an allegedconspiracy of silence. I can assure you r Lo rdsh ipst h a t th e G o v e r n m e n t a re no t engaged i n any suchconspiracy. In view of w h a t th e noble Lord, LordGain fo rd , sa id, I m u s t emphasise t h a t th e Mini s t r yof Defence examines any UFO reports receivedto es t ab l i sh whether t hey r evea l any th ing ofdefence interest , bu t no th ing in the reportsexamined has ever given cause to believe thatthey represent a l ien spacecraf t . There i s no thin gto have a conspiracy of s i lence about . W hat ismore, a vis i to r from oute r space wou ld be one ofth e great events in h i s t o r y . It would cer ta inly bean event of s t upendous impo r t ance , but I hesi ta teto say the greatest event of all in the presenceofmy o ld fr iend th e r i g h t reverend prela te th eBishop of Norwich, whose moving speech w elistened to wi th much interest.As the noble Earl , Lord Ha l sbur y , said,scient is t s a re r ight ly inquis i t ive people. If therew a s a n y t h i n g in th e stories of UFOs, we wouldexpect th e scientif ic c o m m un i t y a s a who le to bedevo t ing much effort t o s t ud y ing o r to mak ingcontact wi th th e supposed aliens; but the idea of aconspiracy of silence by t h i s and otherGovernments belongs, I suggest , to the world ofJames Bond.

Then th e noble Ea rl, Lord Kim berley , impl iedt h a t there was some kind of cover-up. There i s nocove r -up and no secur i ty bah. It is t r ue t ha t whenpeople ask to see the Mini s try of Defence UFOfiles they are to ld tha t the papers mus t r ema inconfidential, but there i s a very mundane reasonf o r t h a t . T h e f i l e s c o n t a i n v o l u m i n o u scorrespondence from people, and we cannotdivulge the identi ty of the correspondents. Itfollows t h a t th e files mus t r ema in closed un de r th eru le s laid down in the Publ ic Record Acts , passedby Par l i amen t , which a t present precludedisclosure unti l 30 years have elapsed since theda te io f th e pa r t i cu l a r correspondence. T h eearliest reports th e Mini s try of Defence ho ld a reda ted 1962....

Then i t has been suggested, too, in thisdebate tha t H er Majesty 's Government shouldset up a s tud y g roup. I am g lad to say tha t thenoble Lord, Lord T refgarn e, and the noble Lord,Lord G l a d w y n , both speaking from the FrontBenches for the Opposition Parties, did r iotsuppor t t h i s proposa l, and cer ta inly HerMajes ty ' s Government do no t consider tha t therei s any jus t i f ica t ion for the expend i t u r e of publ icmoney on such a s t udy . . . .

AGENDA FOR MUFON TENTH ANNUALUFOSYMPOSIUM, JULY 7 &8,1979

SPEAKERSThomas Bea r den

DEGR EE CIT Y T IT LE OF PAPER

David Stupp le

Richard F. Haines

M.S. Huntsv i l l e , A l a . " A M i n d / B r a i n / M a t t e rM od e l Co ns i s t en t W i t hQ u a n t u m P h y s i c s an d t h eU F O P h e n o m e n a "Ph.D. Ypsilant i , M i c h . " Con tac tee s , C u l

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