The Philosophy of Fringe_ Swinging Schrodinger's Cat by Its Tail - Fringe General Gabbery - TWoP Forums

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The Philosophy of Fringe: Swinging Schrodinger's Cat By Its TailStarted by oconnellaboo , Sep 16 201 1 11 :48 AM

There have been some interesting philosophical discussions on the threads lately - which have been taking us off topic!- so here's a place for all things philosophical.

I've always been fascinated by sci-fi on TV because at its best, it explores human relationships in even more intimatede tai l than some so- called "dramas." And Fringe does it better than almost anybody. From the search for one's identity,to being an adult child caring for an elderly parent, this show looks at the human condition in all its flawed, gorgeous,and scary glory .

So, let's discuss!

Pos ted Sep 16 , 2 011 @ 11 :48 AM

My mind is still blown by the new trailer that is out today, but I'll hop back and discuss (err, I mean swing cats) later

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 2 :19 PM

Here's a discussion topic: Does Fringe believe in ghosts, or doesn't it?

Walter doesn't believe in ghosts; he says they don't exist (one of the few things he believes doesn't exist). And, in "6B,"the events were shown not to have been caused by ghosts, but by the force o f human emotions across the universes.

So, if ghosts don't exist... do souls? What about soul magnets? How did Belly's reincarnation happen? What is Fringe'sstance on this really?

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 2 :24 PM

I think that's one of the main sources of dramatic tension in Fringe: Walter, the scientist, has always believed thateverything has a scientific explanation. However, we see him in Season 2 asking God for a sign of forgiveness, and

begging God to save the universes.

If Walter doesn't believe in ghosts, does he believe in the existence of the soul in a religious sense? If not, why would he

believe in God? I'v e always wondered at that.

I think that Fringe, true to its name, is on the fence about souls. I think Bell and Walter consider the brain to be what we would call the soul, and that what makes us human is a collec tion of elect ro-magnetic pulses firing off in our brains;therefore, that energy could conceivably be transferred, via "soul magnets," from one vessel to another.

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 3 :07 PM

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And I just had a Dark Matters flashback. ..

Anyway, Bell seems to have stuck to that theory; his idea of the soul is as the sum of all individual human knowledge, while I think perhaps Walter - humbled by madness, and amazed at his estranged son's capacity fo r forgiveness - isstarting to think of the soul as something more. I sincerely doubt Bell had any kind of "romantic" or religious notion of the soul, but I think Walter does.

Well the soul magnets per se prove the existence of the soul, whether you want to call it someone's spiritual essence orenergy fields. I mean, they captured a disembodied soul and stuffed it into another body however temporarily.

Posted Sep 16, 2 01 1 @ 3:08 PM

Ghosts versus soul magnets...oooh, interesting!

I would think that as scientists, Bell and Bishop would be interested in energy --the electrical charge used by our brainsto help create "consciousness."

If I had to step into Walter's shoes, I'd say he doesn't believe in ghosts because they are a spontaneous embodiment of

someone's conscious energy. The aburdity here is that if someone dies, their c onsciousness (electrical energy) leavestheir body and suddenly appears to us in the physical form conveniently identical to the shape of the person we know.That's just nutty.

Soul (consciousness) magnets are different, I would guess, since they draw the energy from a person's brain andconcentrates it on the magnet to recreate that person's consciousness. There's a physical medium to absorb the energy (the magnet) and a physical medium to relate the information (Bellivia.) That's less nutty.

Actually it's all nutty, but it's fun to try to work out the writers' logic.

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 3 :15 PM

Quote

If I had t o step into Walter's shoes, I'd say he doesn't believe in ghosts because they are a spontan eous embodiment of

someone's conscious energy . The abur dity here is that if someone dies, their consciousness (electrica l energy ) leav es their

body an d suddenl y appea rs t o us in th e phy sica l form conv eni ent ly iden tic al to th e sha pe of th e per son we kn ow. That 's just

nut ty.

Well, Walter could just as easily claim that the person who encounters a ghost creates a form in their mind for it thatthey can understand. Especially if they're in an isolation tank, high off their gourd. :)

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 3 :22 PM

Quote

Well , Wa lte r c ould j ust as ea sily cla im th at th e per son w ho encoun ter s a g host c rea tes a form in th eir m ind for i t t ha t t hey

can u nderstand. Especially if they 're in an isolation tank, h igh off their gour d. :)

Indeed! It'll be interesting to see how Walter explains himself if he starts to see or hear Peter if he's not in the tank.

As Band of Horses said, "Is there a ghost in my house?"

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 3 :39 PM

Quote

Pos ted Sep 16 , 2 011 @ 4 :01 PM


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As Ba nd of Hor ses said , "Is ther e a g host i n m y house?"

Oh, nice reference!

It actually becomes more than a hypothetical problem in Walter's case, both because he's become used to seeingunusual things, and because he knows he shouldn't trust his own mind.

I like that we're attempting to order our theories by degree of nuttiness . So perfect for this show! And as...uh, some guy I seem to have heard say this a few times might add, "'Cause that's not ridiculous at all."

So, Bell takes a completely scientific view of the soul; Walter seems to be coming around to the idea that a higher powermight be involved; the scientist in "White Tulip" implied that science/scientists essentially are God--and provided

Walter his sign of forgiveness, delivered via science but interpreted as a message from God, by Walter.

Where does Olivia fall on this spectrum, do you think? I believe it's in "Unearthed" (ptui!) that the girl's mother asks if she's religious, and Olivia deflects, saying she's not but understands that faith can be a comfort to some. On the otherhand, she also held onto (and passed down to Ella) her mother's crucifix. Has all the crazy crap she's seen pushed herone way or the other? Or, with the apparent reset we're walking into with Season 4, has she seen as much, or the same,crazy crap?

Pos ted Sep 16 , 2 011 @ 4 :50 PM

Quote

So, Bell takes a completely scientific v iew of the soul; Walt er seems to be coming ar ound to the idea that a higher power

might be involved

I agree, and I think this is a good example of hubris vs humility. Bell (at least as far as we know) has not consideredhimself to be the cause of suffering and loss, while we know that Walter has seen, understood, and accepted

responsibility for his actions that have hurt others.

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 5 :14 PM

Personally, I think that Bell knew that he'd harmed others, and didn't care. Look at his callous disregard of Olivia'ssafety.

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 5 :19 PM

That's probably more accurate, Corwin. When Bell and Walter were young turks, they were probably as arrogant as

could be - perhaps Walter's family caused him to look a little more outside himself, while Bell had no such influences - Idon't see Nina as softening him, she probably egged him on.

When Walter and Bell were talking about Bell removing pieces of Walter's brain - and Bell told him that he ASKED Bellto do so because he was afraid of what he was becoming.... that tells me that Walter had a tighter grasp on his humanity than Bell.

So..... if Walter's humanity came from having a family, wonder if he is more like Bell without that influence?

Pos ted Sep 16 , 201 1 @ 5 :47 PM

Quote

When Wa lt er a nd Bell w ere ta lki ng abou t Bel l r em ov ing pi eces of Wa lt er's br ain - a nd Be ll t old hi m th at he A SKED Bell to do

so because he was afraid of what he was becoming.... that tells me that Walter had a tigh ter grasp on his humanity than

Bell.

Pos ted Sep 19 , 201 1 @ 2 :35 PM


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Or that Walter wasn't as ambitious.

Even though Bell is rarely seen on the show (and is now supposedly really, most sincerely dead), it's his philosophy thatgives the show its background oomph: "Only those who dare to go too far can know how far they can go." (Which is sortof a meta-commentary on Fringe, the show, considering the nature of the season we are about to begin.) "Don't beafraid to cross the line." I don't see where Bell has ever been painted as a villain, or even as a cautionary tale. When Belldoes show up, he is a voice of wisdom, as well as a devil's advocate f or boldness.

So I'd say that Fringe's philosophy is undecided on "love over all" because as far as I can tell, Bell loves nothing butscience and discovery (even Nina, apparently his lover, was also one of his experiments, with her mechanical arm). I

guess Bell stands for "pure science." And Fringe, the show, has never seriously tried to portray that as wrong (eventhough we know experimenting on children was wrong).

And what about the Observers - are they also dispassionate "scientists" or does September have some kind of innerconflict ov er this that echoes the Bell-Bishop "conflict" between science vs. emotion?

I believe Walter was equally brilliant, but perhaps weaker in will, than Bell (more "human" I suppose) - which I guess would fit in nicely with Walter's many past sexcapades. It seemed to me that Peter had a strong enough will to stare Belldown (during the Bellivia episode), something Walter always seemed to lack.

(Crap, you know what else we need here on the forum? A William Bell topic. Or someplace we can discuss the prequelFringe spinoff some of us really fantasize about.)

Edited by Money Magnet, Sep 19, 2011 @ 2:44 PM.

Bump

Posted Mar 8, 201 2 @ 3 :09 PM

I...totally forgot we had this thread! T hanks, jophan !

Posted Mar 8, 201 2 @ 6:5 5 PM
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