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A New Decade
&
A New Approach
to
Rural Trauma Care* * *
Military Trauma Care as the model
Norman McSwain MD FACS, NREMT-P
Professor Tulane School of Medicine
Trauma director Charity Hospital
Thanks for including me in the summit
Interactive lecture
with yourselfHow can I change
my state?
How can I change Rural Trauma Care as a national system
Do we need a change in Rural Trauma Care
• Effect of War on prehospital care
• Effect from current conflicts– Iraq, Afghanistan and others
• CoTCCC & TCCC
• Specific treatment techniques
• Military -> Rural benefits
• Louisiana Rural Trauma Care system
This Summit should set in motion Rural Trauma Care
into next decade
Connectionthrough
PreHospital Trauma Life support&
Tactical Combat Casualty Care
6
Understanding patient care
• Principle – medical standard that is necessary for good patient care
• Preference – how the standard is achieved– Conditions– Circumstances– Knowledge, Skill , Ability, & Affect of the operator– Resources available
Science
Art
Goals of Prehospital care• Improve survival
– Arrival on the scene– Arrival at the hospital– At worst “do no further harm”
• Reduce pain– Stabilization– Medication
• Reduce hemorrhage– Stop on the scene– Prevent additional hemorrhage– Stabilize Fractures– Deliver to correct hospital
Principles
• Do no further harm
• Preserve and improve energy production
• Airway/Ventilation management
• Hemorrhage control
• Transport patient to correct hospital
• Do not transport dead patients
• Appropriate resuscitation
• Reduce pain
Proof based patient care
Prominence based patient care
Perceptive based patient care
Evidence based medicine
Eminence based medicine
Understanding based medicine
Understanding
If you cannot answer the question
“WHY”
then you do not understand.
Impact of Warson EMS
Changes of the Wars
• Napoleon Wars – Dominique-Jean Larrey– Foundation elements of prehospital care– Rapid response– Trained attendants– Close hospitals
• War of Northern Aggression (1861)– Development of Ambulance services
Changes of the Wars
• WWI – Thomas Splint– Ground evacuation
• WWII – Training of corpsmen in early management of injured soldiers– Plasma
• Korea – Use of helicopter for rapid transportation– Front line hospitals (MASH)
Changes of the Wars
• Viet Nam – advanced scene care by corpsmen– IV– Airway– Bypass CAS for MASH– Large volumes of crystalloid resuscitation
• Iraq/Afgahnistan– Advanced care en route to the next medical care– Damage control Surgery– Damage control Resuscitation– Military Echelon of Casualty Management– Tourniquets/hemostatic agents– Interosseous vascular access
Larrey’s Principles
EMS Changes in Current Conflicts
• CoTCCC• TCCC• Military Echelon Casualty Management (MECM)• Medical Evacuation (CCAT)• Hemorrhage control
– Tourniquets– Hemostatic agents
• Resuscitation• Surgical management• Interosseous Access• Field Assessment• Field trauma management
Committee on
(CoTCCC)
18
CoTCCC Members – Recent and Present
• U.S. Surgeon General• Chairman – ACS Committee on Trauma• Trauma consultants for Army, Navy, and Air Force
Surgeons General• 5 Trauma Directors for Level 1 Trauma Centers• White House Medical Officer• 2 Command Surgeons, U.S. Special Operations
Command (USSOCOM)• Command Surgeon for the Army Rangers• Senior Enlisted Medical Advisor, USSOCOM• Senior Medic for the Army Rangers
20
Changes to the TCCC Guidelines
CoTCCC
Research Facilities
Service MedicalLessons LearnedCenters
Direct InputFrom Combat MedicalPersonnel
PublishedPrehospital TraumaLiterature
Unclassified
Committee onTactical Combat Casualty Care
Defense Health Board
Trauma and Injury Subcommittee
Assistant Secretary of DefenseHealth Affairs
Surgeons General
22
TCCC Changes 2008/2009
• No hemostatics in Care Under Fire
• Updated tourniquet use plan
• Combat Gauze
• Mgt of Tension Pneumothorax
• Mgt of Sucking Chest Wound
• Mgt of Penetrating Eye Trauma
• TCCC Casualty Card
• Third phase of care: “Tactical Evacuation Care”
Unclassified
23
2 Special Operations UnitsExperience with TCCC
• Kotwal – TCCC First Responders Conf 9/08– 75th Ranger Regiment– 482 casualties – 37 fatalities
• Pennardt – CoTCCC meeting 2/09– Army Special Forces unit– 201 casualties – 12 fatalities
• Neither unit identified any preventable deaths
• Both units train all combatants in TCCC
PracticePractice Practice
Tactical Combat Casualty Care
The Course
25
PHTLS Seventh Edition• Introduction – Frank Butler• Care Under Fire – Shawn Johnson• Tactical Field Care – Frank Butler• CASEVAC – Jay Johannigman, Tom Rich• Triage – Paul Cordts • CASEVAC, MEDEVAC, and Aeromedical Evacuation – Jay Johannigman, Tom Rich• Injuries from Explosives – Howard Champion• Medical Support of Urban Ops – Bob Mabry • Ethical Considerations – Frank Anders• Burns in TCCC – Booker King• Theater Medical Care – Brian Eastridge• Pre-Mission Medical Planning – Russ Kotwal, Harold Montgomery
26
Revised TCCC Curriculum Completed • Powerpoint presentations (5)
• Skill sheets (9)
• Instructor guides (5)
• Training videos (16)
• Maintain on websites – public domain
–MHS
– PHTLS
• Update with each change in guidelines
27
TCCC Training Options
• Use curriculum from PHTLS website
• Military-to-Military
• PHTLS – like structure
• Commercial TCCC Training Vendors
• Other options?
28
Requests for TCCC Training
• Sweden
• Spain
• Portugal
• Argentina
29
PHTLS support of TCCC
• Certification card
• TCCC Registry
• Instructor qualifications
• Test
• Curriculum used
• Skills sets trained
Combat Trauma Care
31
Civilian Trauma Care
Is this rural/wilderness
or military
Principles vs Preferences
• Situation
• Conditions
• Skill, Knowledge, Ability, & Affect
• Resources
Military Field TriageTCCC
Stages of Medical Care
• Care Under Fire
• Tactical Field Care
• Tactical Evacuation
• Field Hospital– FST
– CSH
• MedEvac
• Definitive medical care
• Echelon I
• Echelon II
• Echelon III
• Echelon IV
• Echelon V
36
Questions?
Care under Fire
Care Under Fire Guidelines
1. Return fire and take cover.
2. Direct or expect casualty to remain engaged as a combatant if appropriate.
3. Direct casualty to move to cover and apply self-aid if able.
4. Try to keep the casualty from sustaining additional wounds.
37
Care Under Fire Guidelines
5. Airway management Deferred Tactical Field Care phase
6. Stop life-threatening external hemorrhage if tactically feasible:– Direct casualty to control bleeding self-aid . – tourniquet for hemorrhage control
– Tourniquet – proximal to the bleeding site,
– over the uniform, tighten,
–move the casualty to cover.38
Care Under Fire
• Prosecuting the mission and caring for the casualties may be in direct conflict.
• What’s best for the casualty may NOT be what’s best for the mission.
• When there is conflict – which takes precedence?
Care Under Fire• Suppression of hostile fire
minimize the risk of both new casualties additional injuries already injured
• The firepower – essential to tactical fire superiority.– medical personnel – the casualties themselves may be
• The best medicine on the battlefield is Fire Superiority.
40
The Number OneMedical Priority
Early control of severe hemorrhage is critical.– Extremity hemorrhage is the most frequent
cause of preventable battlefield deaths.– Over 2500 deaths • Vietnam • extremity wounds.
– Injury to a major vessel can quickly lead to shock and death.
– Only life-threatening bleeding warrants intervention during Care Under Fire.
41
Over 2500 deaths occurred in Vietnam secondary to hemorrhage from extremity wounds. These casualties had no other injuries.
Vietnam. Medical Evacuation. Marines of Company E, 2nd Battalion, 9th Marines, while under heavy firefight with NVAs within the DMZ on Operation Hickory III, are carrying one of their fellow Marines to the H-34. 07/29/1967
Vietnam
43
Tourniquets – Kragh et alAnnals of Surgery 2009
• Ibn Sina Hospital, Baghdad, 2006 • Tourniquets are saving lives on the battlefield • 31 lives saved in this study by applying tourniquets prehospital rather than in the ED• Author estimates 2000 lives saved with tourniquets in this conflict (Extrapolation provided to MRMC)
Unclassified
C-Spine Stabilization
Penetrating head and neck injuries do not require C-spine stabilization
–Gunshot wounds (GSW), shrapnel
– In penetrating trauma, the spinal cord is either already compromised or is in relatively less danger than would be the case with blunt trauma.
44
4545
Berator
46
Tactical Field Care Guidelines
2. Airway Managementb. Casualty with airway obstruction or impending airway
obstruction:- Chin lift or jaw thrust maneuver- Nasopharyngeal airway- assume position that best protects the airway- Place unconscious casualty in recovery position.- If previous measures unsuccessful:
- Surgical cricothyroidotomy (with lidocaine if conscious)
47
IV Access – Key Point
• NOT ALL CASUALTIES NEED IVs!– IV fluids not required for minor wounds– IV fluids and supplies are limited – save them
for the casualties who really need them– IVs take time– Distract from other care required–May disrupt tactical flow – waiting 10 minutes
to start an IV on a casualty who doesn’t need it may endanger your unit unnecessarily
48
Tactical Field Care Guidelines
Shock management6. Fluid Resuscitation
• Assess for hemorrhagic shock; – altered mental status (in the absence of head injury)
– weak or absent peripheral pulses • best field indicators of shock.
Not in shock:
- No IV fluids necessary
- PO fluids permissible if conscious and can
swallow
49
Tactical Field Care Guidelines
Shock management
6. Fluid Resuscitation
b. If in shock:
- Hextend, 500ml IV bolus
- Repeat once after 30 minutes if still
in shock.
- No more than 1000ml of Hextend
50
Hypotensive Resuscitation
Goals of Fluid Resuscitation Therapy• Improved state of consciousness (if no TBI)• Palpable radial pulse–Corresponds roughly to systolic blood
pressure of 80 mm Hg• Avoid over-resuscitation of shock from torso
wounds.• Too much fluid volume may make internal
hemorrhage worse by “Popping the Clot.”
51
Pulse Oximetry Monitoring
• Pulse oximetry – – heart rate – percent of oxygenated blood (“O2 sat”)
• Sea Level– 98% or higher
• 12,000 feet• 86% = normal
Resuscitation
Resuscitation
• Damage Control Surgery (DCS)– Control of hemorrhage– Shunt vascular injury– Staple bowel injuries– Stabilize fractures– Vac Pac Dressing
• Follow up surgery– 24-48 hours– Definitive vascular care– Repair bowel injuries– Assure hemostasis
Does NOT have tobe done in same hospital
Damage Control Resuscitation• Replace what is lost• Whole blood– PRBC– Plasma– Platelets– Cryoprecipitate
• Ratio– 1 PRBC : 1 plasma : ?– 1 platelets : 1 Cryoprecipitate – No crystalloid
Damage Control Resuscitation
Military – Holcomb, Rhee and others
Civilian – Duchesne & others
Damage Control ResuscitationPrehospital Rural Care
Restricted Fluid Resuscitation (Mattox)
Indicators - Pulse character & mentation (Holcomb)
Short transports - Minimal Crystalloid
Future
Long transports - colloid plus hypotensive care
Resuscitation
Replace what is lost
WITH
what is lost
Resuscitation
• Blood is lost – replace blood
• Crystalloid is lost – replace crystalloid
• Presser agents are lost – replace pressor agents
What happened to blood?
Military uses it why can’t we?
Next best option- Reconstitute blood -
• Packed Red Blood Cells
• Plasma– Frozen
– Liquid
• Platelets
• Cryoprecipitate
Where is this available?
Uncontrolled hemorrhageHypotensive, hypovolemic
Uncontrolled hemorrhageHypotensive, hypovolemic
Raising blood pressure Pressure Gradient
blood loss blood pressure
*********************************
Add more fluids Hematocrit
Oxygen delivery Anaerobic metabolism
Energy (ATP) Production
Raising blood pressure Pressure Gradient
blood loss blood pressure
*********************************
Add more fluids Hematocrit
Oxygen delivery Anaerobic metabolism
Energy (ATP) Production
FatalCycle
Fluid administrati
on without
easy vessels
William Blaisdale, MDScudder Orator 1982
Sternal Screw for IV fluids
Alex Haller, MDScudder Orator 1994
Intraosseous IV fluids in pediatric patients
Walter Estell Lee, MD Scudder Orator 1941
Intraosseous fluids done by Tocatins in Philadelphia.
The needles were 15 gauge and initially made by
George Piling Company in Philadelphia
Intraosseous Fluid Administration
• Tibia
• Sternum
• Humerus
FAST - 1
B I G
EZ - IO
Cook
Success rates95%
90 seconds
Intraosseous Fluid Administration
Hemorrhage Control
Hemorrhage control
• Compression bandages
• Tourniquets
• Hemostatic agents– Cutaneous/local
– Systemic
• Factor XIV
Where is factor XIV available?
TourniquetsDo they belong in civilian
EMS ?
YES!
Tourniquets
• Why were we wrong?– Don’t confuse me with no data, my mind is
made up?– The data does not support their use– Data? What data?–Well if you put them on, that determines the
level of the amputation. They distal extremity will die.
– If they are too tight, the artery will be damaged.– If they are too tight, the nerve will be damaged.
Hemorrhage control
• Iraq – most common cause of preventable death– 10% of deaths distal to axilla or groin
• Compressible– Tourniquet-able
– Non-tourniquet-able
• Non-compressible Champion & HolcombSOMA 2005
Factor XIV• Suture
• Ligature
• Hemostat
Can be applied in the ORTherefore the importance to deliver the patient
to the Hospital with a trauma team that can and will immediately place the patient in an OR
Open the abdomen/chestand
FIX THE HEMORRHAGE
Tourniquet
• Triangle bandage & windless
• Commercial devices
• Blood pressure cuff
• Used in military since 1674
Swartz , Surg ‘58
Albert Sidney JohnstonGeneral, Confederate Army
• Gun shot would to thigh
• Blood ran down into boot
• Directed medic to another solder
• Exsanguinated
• Tourniquet would have saved his life
• Reportedly in his pocket.
TourniquetsClinical experience
• Kandahar AFB - 4 months (2006)• 134 patients treated• 6 patients – 8 tourniquets• Lives saved = 4 patients – 5 tourniquets• Misuse = 1 venous tight only => Bleeding• Prolonged use = 1 (4 hours) no complications
Tien et alJACS ‘08
TourniquetsClinical application
• Combat operations => delay in transport
• 16 hours = no complications
• Patient life saved
Kragh et alJ Ortho Trauma ‘07
TourniquetsClinical Experience
• UK Joint Trauma Registry
• 66 months
• 1375 patients
• Tourniquets = 70 (5%) patients
• Tourniquets used = 107
• 2 or > = 24%
• 87% survival Brodie et alJR Army Med corps ‘07
TourniquetsClinical Experience
• Vietnam KIA exsanguination = 9%• OTF 31st Combat Support Hospital• 12 months = 3444 patients• Major vascular, traumatic amputation, tourniquet• 165 patients • Prehospital tourniquet = 67 (TK)• Severe extremity injury no tourniquet = 98 (No TK)• Bleeding control = TK=83% vs No TK-60%• Secondary amputation = TK=6% vs No TK =9%• Potentially preventable deaths = 57%
Beekley et alJ Trauma ‘08
Tourniquets
Clinical Experience
• Israeli Defense Forces
• 550 patients
• 91 prehospital tourniquets (16%)
• Injury to application 15 minutes
• Ischemia time = 83 minutes
• 78% effectiveLakstein et alJ Trauma ‘03
Special Operation Forces Tactical Tourniquet
SOFT-T
Combat Applied Tactical Tourniquet
CATT
Application of CATT
Emergency Medical TourniquetEMT
85
Cravat/Windlass
Tourniquets
86
Tourniquets in WWIIWolff AMEDD J April 1945
“We believe that the strap-and-buckle tourniquet in common use is ineffective in most instances under field conditions…it rarely controls bleeding no matter how tightly applied.”
Hemostatic Agents
• QuikClot
• Hemcon
• Wound Stat
• Combat Gauze
Mechanism of action
• Absorb water– QuikClot
– Combat Gauze
• Increase clotting– Hemcon
Hemostatic Agents
• Complications
• Vascular damage –WoundStat
• Local hypothermia– QuikClot
• Difficulty in placement– All powder/granular agents
90Courtesy Dr. Bijan Kheirabadi
Combat Gauze
• 3 inch x 4 yard roll of gauze
• Impregnated with kaolin
• Material that causes blood to clot
Kaolin is a white clay used for many purposes, among which is the medication Kaopectate.Also eaten by the ‘clay eaters’ of Georgia and other rural areasTo improve digestion
Factor XIV
Delivery of the patient to the correct hospital is the
MOST IMPORTANTstep EMS can take
Field Hemorrhage Control Non-combat patient care
Direct hand pressure
Pressure Bandage
Torso ExtremityHemostatic Agent Tourniquet
HospitalYes
No
Hospital
Hemorrhage continues
94
Tactical Field Care Guidelines
2. Airway Management
a. Unconscious casualty without airway obstruction:
- Chin lift or jaw thrust maneuver
- Nasopharyngeal airway
- Place casualty in recovery position
Open chest
wound
Open chest wound
• Re-establish ventilation
• Air movement out airway not chest wall– Close open hole
• Relive compartment syndrome– Needle into pleural cavity
– Needle not stop in chest wall
– 8 cm
– 14 gauge
Open Pneumothorax Mgt
Frank, I finally got to test the open pneumothorax treatment algorithm. We had a SWAT call-up, our second of the day, with a guy threatening to kill himself with two hostages. He finally shot himself at point blank range in the left chest with a .357 magnum hollow point. I was only about 30 feet away and got to him immediately and sure enough he had a hole as big as a golf ball in his left chest. He had an open pneumo so I put my hand over it and it stopped blowing. I asked the medic for some vaseline gauze and he handed me, yes, an Asherman chest seal. Of course it did not stick, but we used it until we got him intubated and then I put on a EKG pad which worked great. He is now in the OR getting whatever fixed. We had another GSW at the same time through the back with no exit who DOW. Now I have to try to get all the blood out of my uniform. See you in a few days, Semper Fi, Mel
98
Pain Control
Pain Control When Able to fight:• Mobic and Tylenol are the medications of
choice• Both should be packaged in a COMBAT PILL
PACK and taken by the casualty as soon as feasible after wounding.
99
Pain Control – FentanylLozenge
Pain Control - Unable to Fight• If casualty does not otherwise
require IV/IO access
– Oral transmucosal fentanyl citrate, 800 µg (between cheek and gum)
– VERY FAST-ACTING; WORKS ALMOST AS FAST AS IV MORPHINE
– VERY POTENT PAIN RELIEF
Trauma Center
Is this a gadget too?
Hemorrhage control timelines
12 10 12 10 25 25 15 10 20
12 10 30 1000125
0 50 100 150
Minutes
CommunityHospital
TraumaCenter
Access
Scene
transport
ED
Surgeon
OR staff
Ready OR
to OR
Hemorrhage control
68 minutes
Indications to bypassSevere trauma
• Physiologic reasons– Shock– Airway & ventilation– Major Hemorrhage
• Anatomic– Penetration - head, neck, torso, proximal limbs– Crush torso– Major fractures
• Mechanism of injury– Major vehicle damage– Fall from height
Failure to fly syndrome
Contra-indications to bypass4Time
• Technical difficulties– Inability to maintain airway
• BVM is not working• Separation of esophagus & trachea required
– Intubation in the field unsuccessful or not trained• Surgical airway necessary
– Uncontrollable hemorrhage• External• Internal
• Critical conditions– Cardiac Arrest– Ventilation compromise
• Tension pneumothorax• Major fail chest
• Medical Control decision – Shock– Transportation time > 50 minutes
Contra-indications to bypass2
Mechanism of injury• How important is it ?
• > 75 % go home within 6 hours
• 1 year– 641 patients in AR
– 2 deaths
– 59 operations
– 120 admissions
Plan for
Louisiana Trauma Care System
Stages of Medical Care
• Care Under Fire
• Tactical Field Care
• Tactical Evacuation
• Field Hospital– FST
– CSH
• MedEvac
• Definitive medical care
• Echelon I
• Echelon II
• Echelon III
• Echelon IV
• Echelon V
Louisiana Echelon for Trauma Care• Echelon I– EMS system– ALS care– State wide communication
• Echelon II– Critical Access Hospitals– <25 beds– ED Provider in-house– Physician available
• Echelon III– Rural Hospitals 25-60 beds– ED physician staffed– Surgeon available– Orthopedics available– OR staffed– Blood bank
Louisiana Echelon for Trauma Care
• Echelon III– Level III trauma center– Neurosurgeon available– OR rapid access 24 hours– 24 hour blood bank– CT, MRI– Interventional Radiology
• Echelon IV– Level II/I Trauma Center– In house OR– 24 hour everything – 15 minutes– ED physicians & Surgeons dedicated to patient care
SE Louisiana Trauma systemField to Trauma Center
• Physiologic reasons– Shock– Airway & ventilation– Major Hemorrhage
• Anatomic– Penetration - head, neck,
torso, proximal limbs– Crush torso– Major fractures
• < 50 minutes
Rural Trauma Organization System
Patient care movement
• EMS triage– Hospital best able to care for patient
• Minor - closest hospital
• Major
– level III
–DCS
–DCR
• Serious – Trauma Center
–ACS anatomical
–ACS physiological
Rural Trauma Organization System• Trauma patient care
• Critical Access– No serious patients via EMS
– Treat and release
– Understand trauma if walk-in
• Rural– DCR
– DCS
– Rapid assessment & move
• Trauma Center (III, II, I)
• Totally prepared
Rural Trauma Organization System• Trauma Educational System– Critical Access
• RTTCS
• ATLS ?
– Rural• ATLS
• DCR/DCS
– Level III• ATOM
• DCS/DCR
– Level II, I• Teaches above
Rural Trauma Organization System
• Trauma Transportation System
• EMS triage
• ACS Anatomic & Physiologic– Trauma center (within 50 minutes)
– Rural hospital• DCS/DCR
• Immediate transfer to Trauma Center
Tulane Center for Trauma Life Support Education
Regional Medical Center
Regional Medical Center
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
HospitalRegional Medical Center
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
Acute Access
Hospital
EMS triage Hospital Triage
Trauma Education SystemATLS/PHTLS
Trauma Center
Level III Level III Level III
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
Trauma Education SystemATOM
Trauma Center
Level III Level III Level III
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
Trauma Education SystemRTTDC
Trauma Center
Level III Level III Level III
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
RuralCritical Access
Summary• Re-assess rural trauma patients needs
• Re-assess rural trauma care– EMS
– Critical Access hospitals
– Rural Hospitals
– Trauma Center
• Re-assess Rural Trauma Training– EMS
– Critical Access hospitals
– Rural Hospital
– Trauma Center
• Re-assess rural trauma transport
• Develop Rural Trauma Patient Care System
PHTLS 6th edition7th edition 2010/11
• Basic principles of patient care– non combat situation
• Tactical principles of patient care– Situation Assessment & management
• Combat situation – Scene– Safety,– Combat contingencies vs non-tactical contingencies
– Patient assessment & management• Unique Primary assessment & care requirements • Unique Secondary assessment & care requirements
Tactical Edition Tactical CombatTactical CombatCasualty CareCasualty Care
committeecommittee
A New Decade
&
A New Approach
to
Rural Trauma Care
Change your mind set
Develop a plan
121
Disarm Individuals with Altered Mental Statues
• Armed combatants with an altered state of consciousness may use their weapons inappropriately.
• Secure long gun, pistols, knives, grenades, explosives.
• Common causes of altered mental status are Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), shock, and pain medications.
• “Let me hold your weapon for you while the doc checks you out”
Transportation of dead patients is bad
• ~ 40% increased crash when EMS is traveling lights & siren
• Patients who are dead need to be pronounced via radio
• ACS & NAEMSP have a combined policy statement JACS March 2003
• Stop it !!!
Committee on
CoTCCC
Open Pneumothorax Mgt
FrankWhat Mel isn't telling you is that he saved this guys life. I happenedto be in the bay when they got here. The patient is recovering followinga Left upper lobectomy and chest wall reconstructionWould echo Mel's commentsEKG/Defib pad yesAsherman noj