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I’m an attorney for the beekeeping

industry who just got a pesticide

linked to Colony Collapse Disorder

pulled off store shelves in the U.S.

Ask me anything!

submitted 11 hours ago *

by GregLEarthjustice

I was the lead attorney on a lawsuit

challenging the EPA’s approval of

the pesticide sulfoxaflor.

Neonicotinoid pesticides like

sulfoxaflor, which are derived from

nicotine, have been shown to reduce

bee colony growth and impact bee

navigation and foraging. Last week,

the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

ruled that the EPA should not have

approved sulfoxaflor without reliable

studies on how it impacts honeybee

colonies, meaning the pesticide

can’t be used on any crops in the

U.S. unless Dow Chemical provides

the EPA with much stronger

scientific evidence. The courts

almost never overturn the approval

of a pesticide, so this is a huge

victory for American beekeepers.

Read more about the case in The

New York Times, the LA Times, and

Rolling Stone.

I work for Earthjustice, a nonprofit

environmental law firm that protects

wild lands and wildlife and

advocates for renewable energy and

human communities free from

pollution. My focus is on endangered

species in the Sierra Nevada, and5580

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Top 200 Comments

best

[–] TheAmberAmazon 924 points 11 hours ago

What can the average person do to help bees?

permalink

[–] [S] 1082 points 10 hours ago

First off, when buying ornamental plants for

your home garden, make sure that they don't

come pre-treated with neonics. Unfortunately,

many big nurseries are still selling flowers that

are sprayed with neonics.

permalink parent

[–] deimosusn 346 points 10 hours ago

Are plants typically labelled as such? Are

there any plants that we should specifically

avoid, or, better yet, are there any plants

that we should try to get?

permalink parent

755 points 9 hours

Home Depot, for example, tends to

include a tag indicating that the plant






2 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

All AMAs require proof.

Request threads

Commenting:

Please note:

Other:

Useful Links!

has been treated with neonics "to prevent

unwanted plants." Unfortunately, the tag

doesn't divulge that neonics are deadly to

bees, so the public can be misled into

thinking that neonics are a good thing!

permalink parent

[–] Da2Shae 510 points 6 hours ago*

Home depot Garden associate

here. Technically, those plants

don't belong to us. At our store,

those plants belong to local

nursuries and are being cared for

by them. We associates just do the

watering, and they send out their

own people every morning to swap

out dead plants and to restock. So

they'll be the ones to have a

problem with sticky notes. Not to

mention the notes themselves will

get soaked in water, get swappes

out if the plant is dead, or even

ripped off by one of the nursing

associates.

If you want to help make a

difference, talk to any of us for the

local nursury's contact

information, website and location.

Ours is super easy to get in

contact with!

Just don't come up to a random

home depot associate and rag on

us about this. All we do is water

the plant and get paid chump

change. We aren't responsible for

what any of these two companies

do.

permalink parent

[–] woohooguy 233 points 6 hours ago

DAMMIT!

A price must be paid for this

injustice!!

Err.. What aisle are the

NetWraythe 143 points 5






3 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

discuss this ad on reddit

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Aisle 28, near the Garden

Center wall.

permalink parent

[–] bombilla42 80 points 5

hours ago

Now that's

convenient!!

permalink parent

[–] moratnz 66 points

5 hours ago

Except torches

are in lighting on

aisle two.

permalink parent

[–] justinchina

42 points 4 hours

ago

and kerosene

is waaaaay

up front by

the cash

registers. but

buy one get

one free.

permalink parent

continue this

thread ►

[–] Trephine_H

10 points 4 hours

ago

On my Home

Depot they

are in the

garden

center, at

least the tiki

ones.

permalink parent

continue this

thread ►

[–] woohooguy 40 points 5

hours ago

Do you price match

amazon?

I just missed prime

overnight shipping so






4 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

load more comments (3 replies)

the soonest I can mob is

Thursday by 8pm.

permalink parent

load more comments (3

replies)

[–] CatDaddio 14 points 5 hours

ago

IDK but tiki torches are in

Garden, so at least that

will save time.

permalink parent

load more comments (1 reply)

[–] Ketonnabis 11 points 5 hours

ago

Aisle 257 - it's about a

quarter mile down on the

right.

permalink parent


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points 5 hours ago

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“






5 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

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[–] indyK1ng 7 points 4

hours ago

Oh jeez, what

happened to him?

permalink parent

[–] benjiliang 22

points 4 hours ago

A tragic pitchfork

accident

permalink parent

[–] davidjschloss

5 points 3 hours

ago

Tripped on

one and fell






6 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



into oncoming

traffic.

permalink parent

continue this

thread ►

[–] astanix 119 points 6 hours ago

The life of a retail worker. Just

doing what they're told and

getting paid chump change.

Then people are all over your

shit about things you can't

control. It definitely sucks.

permalink parent

[–] BigBangFlash 25 points 5

hours ago

Imagine being a computer

tech in a retail store. This

is where you learn the

true nature of human

beings.

permalink parent

[–] TTGOrgan 6 points 4

hours ago

I think you meant

"Imagine working

anywhere in retail."

permalink parent

[–] astanix 8 points 5 hours

ago

I can imagine this.

I'm a computer tech

for a casual dining

restaurant company.

permalink parent

[–] InadequateUsername 4

points 3 hours ago

This is me right now.

First retail job if you

don't count a

fast-food joint in a

People will rag and on

you treat you like shit






7 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



because you're

upholding your

companies policies so

you don't get fired.

Is $190 a lot for a virus

removal? Yes.

Is there anything I can

do about it? No.

Do I want to help you

out to the best of my

ability? Yes.

permalink parent


replies)

[–] humanklaxon 29 points 6 hours ago

Well now I'm going to have to

find something else to do in

the evenings. Foiled again!

permalink parent

Just don't come up

to a random home

depot associate

and rag on us

about this.

“

[–] odins2ravens 16 points 5 hours ago

Lowe's employee here. If you

want to make difference, the

complaints need to go to the

nurseries who sign the dotted

line with our corporate office.

If you can't get the plant

buyer for the region to push

for change, the nurseries

won't spend the extra money

to fix it.

permalink parent

[–] unruly_peasants 15 points 5 hours

It is interesting how the

complexities of modern

capitalism make it so no one






8 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


is really to blame. I've been an

"associate" and a "subcontractor"

and all the injustices and

irresponsibilities were someone

else's fault.

permalink parent

[–] bratling 7 points 5 hours ago

So the home depot doesn't

even have to pay to buy the

inventory. Just take it on

consignment. What a clever

setup. It's like running a pawn

shop without any of the

responsibilities.

permalink parent


[–] MiddleEarthGardens 91 points 9 hours

ago

Absolutely! That wording drives

me insane. I considered going

around Home Depot with post-it

notes and amending them, but I

figured that'd land me in trouble.

permalink parent

[–] JerryLupus 148 points 9 hours ago

With the Home Depot police?

permalink parent

[–] amature_riter 214 points 8

hours ago

Sir, please follow me to

the baton isle.

permalink parent

[–] JustZisGuy 73 points 8

hours ago

Is that off the coast

of Florida?

permalink parent

[–] kinyutaka 67

points 8 hours ago

All but the red

ones, they're in

Louisiana.

permalink parent

[–] allsortsashit

42 points 8 hours






9 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



reply)

load more

comments (2 replies)

ago

Because,

rouge means

red. Just

wanted you

to know that

someone

cares.

permalink parent

continue this

thread ►

[–] seven3true 10

points 8 hours ago

That's boca baton

isle.

permalink parent

load more

comments (1 reply)

[–] RickRussellTX 7 points 7

hours ago

You have to admit, a

pack of 12 batons for

$23.95 is a hell of a

deal.

permalink parent


replies)

[–] ajahanonymous 5 points

7 hours ago

Home Despot

permalink parent


reply)

[–] ToastyFlake 17 points 8 hours

ago

Home Depotland Security.

parent


Emerald_Triangle 3 points 6






10 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



He would likely be Depoted

permalink parent

[–] prof_talc 26 points 7 hours ago

Why? That's why it was

sprayed. It's not like the

purpose of the pesticide is to

fuck with bees. I don't blame

Home Depot for taking the

EPA at its word. If you want

HD to change their policy, you

could write their HQ a letter

relaying your concern and

citing the court case. I dunno

if they'll respond or not, but

since you weren't going to use

the Post-Its I don't see what

harm could come.

permalink parent


[–] teenageriotgrrl 7 points 6

hours ago

Are you familiar with

pollination?

permalink parent

[–] dancingwithcats 15 points 7

hours ago

The purpose might not be

to fuck with bees, but

everyone involved in

using them from the

manufacturers to

companies like Home

Depot know that they are

potentially linked to CCD.

permalink parent


[–] ICreatedSomeClones 13 points 7 hours

ago*

Could you simply wash it off? At

what point does the coating

Edit: I really appreciate all these






11 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

permalink parent

[–] ent_saint 56 points 7 hours ago

It's in the plant. It is not a

coating.

source:beekeeping wife

permalink parent

[–] ICreatedSomeClones 5 points

7 hours ago

Ah that makes a lot more

sense. I will look out for

these.

permalink parent

[–] prjindigo 4 points 7

hours ago

In lawn service we

use neonictinoids to

"imbue" the plant

with the poison so

that insects attacking

it for food or even

just structural

materials will have to

consume the poison.

This works out a

great deal better for

the environment than

trying to keep a

killing field of dirt

since it takes one

application of a small

amount every two to

four months with

systemic (enters and

spreads within plant)

pesticides or monthly

applications near full

rate with

non-systemic

pesticides to control

some of the more

pernicious lawn

eaters.

ALSO: Inert?

Neonictinates

generally don't

become inert without

oxygen and sunlight.






12 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


If they stay wet - like

when used for ground-

treatment before

construction - they can

last much of a decade.

permalink parent

[–] Bizarre_Botanicals 12 points 5

hours ago

These are systemic

insecticides, which kinda sorta

means it is in the plants

"blood". The chemical is

applied to the soil, absorbed

through the roots, and carried

through the entire plant. It

make it's way into pollen and

nectar too (which bees eat). I

found this pdf with lots of

good info. It states that

imdiacloprid (most common

neonic) is degraded by

microbes, sunlight, water ,

mammal livers. They say that

half the chemical remained in

soil at 69 days, 1.5% had

degraded when left in water

after three months, in sugar

beets there were appreciable

amounts in plant tissue for up

to 80 days but was

undetectable after 113 days.

So it lasts a long time, and

you can't "wash it off".

source: BS horticulture, 5 yrs

as grower, hobby beekeeper

permalink parent


[–] lincolnbeard 12 points 6 hours ago

nope, sure can't.

soure: I'm a Bee.

permalink parent

12 points 5 hours ago

For those interested, Lowe's

phase out






13 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


permalink parent

[–] MiddleEarthGardens 3 points 4

hours ago

I had no idea! Thanks for

mentioning that. I've asked

my Lowes associates if they

knew if the plants were

treated with them or not, and

they had no idea what

neonicotinoids were. Womp

womp.

permalink parent

[–] canadian-tree-girl 65 points 7 hours ago

Just a bit of chiming in. I work at one

of the biggest plant nurseries in

Canada and the US. We stopped using

neonics two years ago. We have clients

(landscapers and garden centres, as

well as municipal government buyers)

who are complaining that we aren't

spraying enough any more. We are

actually losing profit over this.

As a citizen, you can help by making

sure that any plants you put money

into come from nurseries who aren't

using neonics! Hiring a landscaper?

Specify this request. Going to a garden

centre to pick up some plants? Make

sure you ask where they buy from and

how these plants are sprayed! See a

new city-contract planting going in?

Write your municipal government!

Also, on a small note: some plants

encourage and nourish the bee

population (especially late summer-fall

blooming plants like Buddleia and

Caryopteris) and some are actually

toxic to bees (some species of Tilia, for

example). Familiarize yourself with

these plants and see if you can do

anything to help in your own backyard

:)


Great advice! :) Would love to






14 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

know what supplier you work with

that has banned them, if you can tell.

I hate that your company is losing

profit - I think part of the drive needs

to be to accept that plants don't have

to be perfect, that they're part of the

ecosystem, and as such, sometimes

they'll get nibbled on.

permalink parent

[–] MiddleEarthGardens 51 points 10 hours ago

So far as I know, many of the big box

stores nursery plants aren't labelled.

Home Depot has started labeling them.

Look for innocuous, harmless looking

plant tags that make it sound innocent.

The wording's something misleading

along the lines of: This plant has been

treated with neonicotinoids, which help

keep annoying pests like whiteflies and

aphids away. Insert rage at the

misleading language, but at least

they're labeling.

Ask local nurseries about whether or

not they use neonics. There are some

online places that specifically don't use

them (Prairie Moon nurseries, Santa

Rosa? I think?, Prairie Nursery).

Plant native plants, if you can. They

evolved along with insects that are

native to your area. There are tons

that can be beautiful. (That being said,

my oregano is often the most popular

plant with the bees for a couple weeks

in the summer.)

Plant for bloom in all seasons to

provide food for your bees, from early

spring (flowering native shrubs?) all

the way to late autumn (asters,

goldenrod). Mind you, my suggestions

are from someone who lives in the

Northeast. That would change if you

live, say, in California or the

Southwest.

Finally, cherish those adorable little

bees as they go about their business.

:) Our bumblebees are so gentle. I've






15 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

picked up a few and moved them

carefully (with gloves - I'm not that

brave) during a hailstorm, and they were

very chill about it.

permalink parent

[–] deimosusn 18 points 10 hours ago

Good to know, thanks!

I have heard that this is especially

important, and that homogeneous

crops are one of the contributors

to CCD.

permalink parent

Plant for bloom in all

seasons to provide food

for your bees, from

early spring (flowering

native shrubs?) all the

way to late autumn

(asters, goldenrod).

“


hours ago

I can't speak to their

contribute to CCD, but I can

say that genetic diversity is

hugely important and lacking

in the lawn-ocean out there.

permalink parent


[–] nerds_need_love_too 3 points 6

hours ago

Isn't alternating plant species

good for the soil as well?

Different plants use up

different nutrients or minerals

or something and planting the

same thing over and over will

leech the soil of those same

minerals, leaving you with soil

that will no longer grow your

favorite plant/flower/whatever

if I recall correctly (and I

baysparkles 4 points 5 hours






16 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


Yes, you are correct

sir/madam!

Crop rotation helps to

maintain soil fertility, not

only in regards to plants

extracting nutrients from

the soil, but it also helps

to keep fertility by

depositing nutrients from

different plants as well.

It's like if you were at a

BBQ and used some

pepper, but it's all good

because you brought

oregano. And yea,

scumbag Hildy over there

ate half of the fucking

tri-tip, but hey, she

brought Hennessy. :D

permalink parent

[–] utspg1980 13 points 8 hours ago

So that i don't sound like a noob,

how do you pronounce neonics?

Neon( like the gas) -icks?

permalink parent


[–] baladash_malanore 19 points 8

hours ago

Neo nics, I assume - from

neonicotinoids.

permalink parent

[–] [S] 10

points 6 hours ago

That's right!

permalink parent

[–] FrankP450 3 points 5 hours ago

NEE-oh-nicks

permalink parent

[–] _funnyface 20 points 7 hours ago

I absolutely adore bees and get

legit pissed when I see someone

swat them :( Ive scooped up bees

in chilly weather and held them in






17 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

my hands til they were warm enough

to fly off. Bees arent scary! (well,

africanized ones are)

I live in CA and my visiting bees also

enjoy oregano, lavender, and daisies.

They go nuts for daisies. Here's a

helpful list though!

http://www.beverlybees.com

/planting-bee-garden/

permalink parent


[–] GodOfDumbness 9 points 6 hours

ago

Being a person from Japan,

and having frequent run-ins

with Long-Leg bees, Giant

wasps and many nopes; I

have no idea how you are not

scared. (We are also told to

avoid them and stop them

from making nests around

your home)

I like the fluffy look of a

bumblebee, don't get me

wrong. But I ain't going

anywhere near it. Also-

Swatting em is a big no-no

cause it will be cause for it to

engage you in combat.

permalink parent


[–] MiddleEarthGardens 8 points

5 hours ago

Japanese scary-ass

hornets are another thing

altogether. NOPE.

permalink parent

[–] BlueNoYellowAhhhhhhh 9 points 7 hours

ago*

I live in an apartment and we have

a large planter in the middle of our

concrete jungle of a parking lot.

We have basil and sunflowers

planted. We let the basil flower

(have a bunch frozen down) so the

flowers are for the bees, they






18 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



seem to really love them, and its

great seeing multiple huge bumble

bees flying around them as well.

*cant spell, thanks jalif

permalink parent


[–] jalif 5 points 7 hours ago

Basil?

permalink parent


[–] BandarSeriBegawan 7 points 7 hours ago

At mom and pop nurseries

unfortunately there are often no labels

to this effect. I work at one of those

and I myself have no idea what plants

have been treated with what. That's

why I always tell customers - I

wouldn't eat any of our plants even if

they are an edible variety - no telling

what got into their systems in the

greenhouse where they were raised.

permalink parent

[–] CorruptDuck 4 points 5 hours ago

Bees love lemon balm and bee balm.

These two plants also keep mosquitoes

away.

permalink parent

[–] jenniferjuniper 60 points 8 hours ago

THIS! My mom works for a wealthy family

and the daughter had just bought tons of

hanging baskets. Then my mom noticed all

these dead bees around every single one.

She talked to the family and not only did

they contact the nursery but they told

everyone in town (Small town, so this is a

big deal) and also got rid of every hanging

basket they purchased from that nursery.

permalink parent

Ornamental plants that attract bees or






19 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

other pollinators should not be treated with

neonics. if you want poinsettia in your

entryway at Christmas, or a houseplant in

your bathroom, it won't matter if it was

treated because bees aren't interested.

Am thoroughly pro-bee, but this is what came

out of the conference at UC Davis last week.

permalink parent

[–] prjindigo 12 points 6 hours ago

Flowering ornamentals are mentioned

on pesticide labels: You DO NOT spray

flowering ornamentals that are outside

for a time prior to bloom through the

blooming period. Once the bloom is

gone you can then spray them again.

Use of pesticides off-label is illegal.

permalink parent

[–] Pamzella 4 points 5 hours ago

First, that doesn't stop the same

people who are worried about

purchasing neonic treated plants

from doing it! They don't even

make the connection, they hear

neonics are bad but could not

identify imidacloprid, the most

frequently found in products Bayer

and Scott are marketing to

consumers. Plenty more don't

care, because unlike nurseries,

landscape professionals, etc. They

are not required to report their

use/register it with the county.

Second, many applications are on

lawns and other areas, not flowers

(but plenty of rose care products

contain it), but drift and the time

of day it's applied are not

considered by consumers who just

want the bugs gone, even if the

bees are out foraging at that very

moment.

Consumer education could help,

but it can't compete with the

marketing budgets of Bayer or

I have some in my house, granted






20 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


it's a bit old, and it suggests lawn

treatment every 30 days, when it's

effective for 90. Marketing, not

science.

permalink parent

[–] Bizarre_Botanicals 3 points 5 hours ago*

I've worked in a greenhouse

applying neonics and have read

the labels (well for imidacloprid at

least). The label says:

"This product is highly toxic to

bees exposed to direct treatment

or residues on blooming crops or

weeds. Do not apply this product

or allow it to drift to blooming

crops or weeds if bees are visiting

the treatment area."

But you are allowed to apply it to

plants before they start flowering,

and since the chemical moves

around inside the plant it gets into

the flower, pollen, and nectar. and

can persist for around 80 days.

permalink parent

[–] ent_saint 84 points 7 hours ago

Bees absolutely love herbs.

A front garden bed full of herbs like rosemary,

lavender, thyme, oregeno, mint, parsley is

beautiful, good for pollinators like bees and a

great addition to the human diet.

permalink parent

[–] rolfraikou 25 points 6 hours ago

And smells damn amazing.

permalink parent


[–] FoghornLawhorn 23 points 6 hours ago

My wife planted some basil and parsley and

damned if it didn't turn into some sort of

social club for (presumably) Italian bees. A

few times I found a bumblebee sleeping off

a hangover on the underside of a leaf when

I'd go out to water them in the morning.

Was shocked to see that many bees






21 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


hanging around a half asses herb garden.

permalink parent


[–] blank_dog 5 points 6 hours ago

Can confirm. Parents have several lavender

bushes in front garden. I've never seen so

many bees.

permalink parent


[–] johayyn 25 points 7 hours ago

You can place a shallow tray, pie pans or litter

boxes are perfect, and cover the bottom with

some water during dry weather. Place some

rocks or something that floats in them will allow

the bees to drink without much chance of

drowning. Once a colony finds a water source,

they will typically keep coming back to that

location.

Starting flowers from seed and not pre-potted

is another way to go about providing for bees.

There is no doubt in knowing what goes on the

plants or in the soil.

permalink parent

[–] SueZbell 4 points 5 hours ago

The bowl of my bird bath is in the shape of

a flower and bees land between the petals

to reach the water without ending up going

swimming.

permalink parent

[–] Shaunvw 3 points 6 hours ago

Plant lots of sedum apparently. Holy shit I have

bees outside my front door like crazy and I just

transplanted 4 small plants from my moms

garden this spring.

permalink parent

[–] m1w1 454 points 10 hours ago

Successfully facing off vs the EPA and Dow

Chemical, even in the 9th Circuit, is amazing.

Congratulations! What were some of the most

frustrating/challenging hurdles presented to you by

the opposing counsel and how did you overcome3575 points · 1595 comments





22 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


One big challenge we routinely face is that the

courts tend to grant federal agencies a huge

amount of deference when it comes to issues

perceived as "technical." But in the case of

sulfoxaflor, we were able to demonstrate that

the problem was really pretty simple: EPA

didn't have the scientific studies that they were

supposed to have. The trick is cutting through

the other side's inevitable smokescreen to

make plain that basic flaw.

permalink parent

[–] jawathehutt 59 points 8 hours ago

Do you disagree that agencies should be

granted deference in technical decisions in

general?

permalink parent

[–] [S] 268 points 7 hours

ago

I don't think I can say it better than

Judge N.R. Smith, a judge appointed

by President Bush who authored a

special concurrence in the sulfoxaflor

case. In Judge Smith's words: "We will

continue to grant agencies great

deference, particularly in cases, such

as this one, which involve 'substantial

agency expertise'. . . However, there is

a great difference between ordering an

agency to explain every possible

scientific uncertainty . . . and requiring

it to articulate a satisfactory

explanation for its action that is based

on scientific data. . . . For me, unless I

am provided with evidence of the EPA's

basis for its judgment and knowledge,

I can only assume it acted with none."

permalink parent

(17 replies)

[–] nwflatiger91 69 points 5 hours ago

My admin law professor read the

exact same quote in class today

permalink parent







23 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

Right, but how are laymen and/or

judges supposed to weigh one

proof against the other in the

courtroom when technical subjects

are being discussed?

permalink


[–] sinfiery 49 points 7 hours ago

Exactly. Idealistic solutions

such as you responded to are

not realistic in practice.

There is a middle ground to

find here -- such as the case

here, reputable presumption.

permalink parent


[–] DrJohanzaKafuhu 14 points 7 hours ago

The "who" is important. There are

many bogus reports and studies

published and popularized each

year that are simply flawed or

unverifiable. Any asshole with a

large enough pocket can fund a

study to prove his point.

Science isn't all "we found this and

it's true." Many things we consider

factual and true today were very

controversial when they were first

considered. Heck if you want to

see bad science just look at the

EMDrive. For over 10 years many

scientists were saying this thing

couldn't work. NASA tests it and

gets positive results. We still don't

know why.

One thing that separates bad

scientists from the good. The bad

believe every thing they've been

taught is true, the good are always

looking for rule-breaking

exceptions and willing to try things

that go against their personal

beliefs. Richard Feynman taught3575 points · 1595 comments





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[–] lilmikesf 68 points 11 hours ago

Is Bayer the only company producing Neonicotinid

pesticides or do others face litigation as well?

permalink


Several of the large agro-chemical companies

manufacture neonicotinoid insecticides.

Sulfoxaflor, for example, was manufactured by

Dow AgroSciences.

permalink parent

[–] fulldicknohalfdick 129 points 9 hours ago

Why do you have to say in response the NPR article

basically saying everything is fine and the numbers

reported don't really tell the story at all?

permalink


First, we cannot expect native pollinators to

stand in for commercially kept honeybees.

Native bees are great, but where are we going

to find the 1.5 million colonies it takes just to

pollinate California's almond crop each January?

Second, every indication is that native bees

have been taking it in the ear as well, and

that's a huge environmental impact in its own

right.

permalink parent



Neonicotinoids kill bees. There is no debating that

fact. However, the symptoms of CCD are much

different than simply dead bees. I have three

questions.

1) What caused CCD/absconding/leaving disease

before neonicoinoids were used?

2) How do you explain that CCD occurs in areas

where neonicotinoids are not used (i.e. the EU)?

CCD has not occurred in California the past 3 years

3) What effect does the introgression of Africanized

genes have on the frequency of CCD? Africanized






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bees typically abscond at much higher rates than

European bees.

Also as a matter of fact, sulfoxaflor is not a

neonicotinoid. It is a member of the sulfoximine class.

Both classes work on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors

but at receptors with different subunit composition.

permalink

[–] SpookyBugGluten 227 points 7 hours ago

Thank you so much for this. I'm at Cornell

doing research on native bees, and the

neonicotinoid issue is not nearly as clear-cut as

a lot of people think it is. You raise some very

good questions here, and I think I might be

able to answer, somewhat.

Colony Collapse Disorder is actually more of a

syndrome, there's no one thing we can pin

down as a cause. Shipping honeybee hives

around the country, like we do to CA for almond

pollination, brings a lot of bees from very

diverse areas together in a relatively small

space, where they interact with each other

(robbing each other's hives, visiting the same

flowers, etc.) It's been demonstrated that bees

can spread pathogens and parasites to each

other on these flowers, so that's bad. Shipping

stresses their immune systems, making them

more vulnerable to pathogens and parasites,

and chronic exposure to pesticides makes bees

less effective foragers, and further suppresses

immune function. CCD is one way in which all

these factors manifest themselves. Hope I

helped a little.

permalink parent

[–] Macracanthorhynchus 88 points 7 hours ago

Oh neat! I'm also at Cornell studying honey

bee disease, and you are, of course,

absolutely right. The studies that have

been done so far on neonicitinoids suggest,

unsurprisingly, that they certainly aren't

making bees MORE healthy, but the doses

used in many of those studies probably

aren't what bees are going to be picking up

from a pretreated flower bought at Home

Depot. Colony collapses and high rates of

winter colony loss are almost certainly the

result of a general systemic unhealthiness






26 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

caused by various factors, of which acute and

chronic pesticide toxicities are just two

examples.

permalink parent

[–] banebot 36 points 6 hours ago

Do...do you know each other?

permalink parent

[–] Opset 54 points 6 hours ago

They're playing this off the right

way and only acknowledging that

they may know each other.

No man should ever try to learn

the Reddit username of someone

they know.

permalink parent

[–] Ronning 55 points 6 hours ago

So if you are both at Cornell studying

bees is there a good chance you know

eachother? I mean... I dont know how

large Cornell's bee studies are but I

can't imagine there is that many

degrees of separation.

permalink parent

[–] h-v-smacker 34 points 6 hours ago*

I hear a buzz that there's a whole

Bee Studies Hive at Cornell...

permalink parent

I dont know how large

Cornell's bee studies

are but I can't imagine

there is that many

degrees of separation.

“

[–] frightenedhugger 22 points 6 hours

ago

Dad, please stop.

permalink parent

[–] spazm 7 points 4 hours ago

There's a cornell of truth

to what he's saying,

parent


You've got the swarm rolling






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on the floor like they have CCD.

permalink parent

[–] Melkain 15 points 5 hours ago

The bee world is a small one, they

know each other. My father is

someone known in the bee

community and I've had people

stop me in the middle of a

transaction and call someone "You

won't believe who's selling me

glasses!" And my mother has been

stopped in a grocery store, had

her hand kissed and referred to as

"bee royalty." It's a little weird to

be honest.

permalink parent



hours ago

Gives a whole new meaning to

queen bee.

permalink parent

[–] thetexassweater 4 points 1 hour

ago

I like to imagine that your

father is some sort of giant

half-bee, half man

permalink parent

[–] BlacksAndHispanics 28 points 5 hours

ago

The difference between

"researching" and "studying" is

key here. I would assume the

former is a PhD student and the

latter is an undergrad working on

their thesis, and they probably

actually don't know each other

specifically because both think

they drink too much and will be

embarrassed.

Source: I'm researching Sociology

at Cornell while I study Linguistics.

Macracanthorhynchus 14 points 4

Ha! Actually, you've got it






28 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


backwards. I'm the Ph.D.

student. I'm just imprecise in my

language vis-a-vis "researching"

and "studying". Maybe you can

use some of your linguistics to

help me?

permalink parent


[–] peerlessblue 4 points 1 hour

ago

Did... did you just ask

them out?

permalink parent

[–] chopyhop 3 points 4 hours ago

Not always true. Myself and

most of my colleagues

interchange between the two.

permalink parent

[–] DoWhile 20 points 6 hours ago

I know nothing about bees, but I do

know that two people from the same

university studying the same subject

area increases the risk of bias. Thank

you for disclosing your close affiliation

to your parent commenter so that any

real or perceived bias is aired out in

advance.

permalink parent

[–] Macracanthorhynchus 5 points 5 hours

ago

Fair point. I can tell you that in

this case I've never met the fella I

replied to, and that we're in

different labs with different

research focii, and that this

interpretation is shared by a whole

lot of other honey bee health

researchers, but your point is

valid. Never trust an interpretation

of data just because two people

voice it, especially if they might be

(1 reply)






29 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

[–] thebigslide 3 points 6 hours ago

Not a bee researcher here. Just a

curious scientist.

I think it's safe to say that stressing a

colony of bees via a multiplicity of

factors is correlated with a negative

outcome on the colony's likelihood of

thriving. I'm curious about what

factors are more or less strongly

correlated though. If the bee industry

needs help in a hurry, it would make

sense to focus on strongly correlated

factors that are easily targeted.

Could either of you recommend any

papers looking at multigenerational

outcomes related to any of the above

mentioned stressors?

permalink parent

[–] Macracanthorhynchus 6 points 4 hours

ago

As someone else mentioned,

"multigenerational outcomes"

studies might be hard to come by.

If you're just interested in the

ontogeny of recent colony losses,

however, I would recommend

these two papers as a good

starting spot.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone

/article?id=10.1371

/journal.pone.0006481

http://journals.plos.org/plosone

/article?id=10.1371

/journal.pone.0032151

I should note: I study the parasitic

mite Varroa destructor, and these

papers strongly implicate Varroa

infestation in colony losses. If

you're feeling generous, you may

believe that I study these mites

because they're so important - if

you're feeling less generous, I

might be considered biased

towards disease being the primary3575 points · 1595 comments





30 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM




CCD is very puzzling and the causes are

many but unconfirmed. Its very

ambiguous. However, it has been around

for a very long time. Its just the recent

bouts have had a better PR push. I do

agree with you though that bees face a lot

of environmental stress.

My current hypothesis is that controlled

breeding and selection for high queen

output, especially early in life, has reduced

fitness. I would love to test this hypothesis!

Also, Cornell is a fine school. I know. I

went there! Ph.D. Entomology 2012.

permalink parent

[–] Ironhorse86 34 points 6 hours ago*

As a commercial beekeeper : Do not

underestimate the lack of varied

nutrition available to the bees and

what this does to their ability to

detoxify themselves from pesticides

and herbacides. (see p-coumaric

enzyme found in honey)

Also, the multiplier effect that comes

with typical poor practices of most

commercial outfits, where they take

too much of their resources and

replace them with empty and

nutrition-less alternatives like 6-10

gallons of 40% corn syrup (that

disrupts their gut) 60% sugar

(providing only carbs for the adults) ..

leading them very much prone to

disease and infestation in their weakest

time of year.

Source: Commercial beekeeper in CA

that does not have CCD, despite my

peers in the county claiming they are

suffering from it... often less than a

mile away. Average national losses just

hit 41%, I am averaging 5-8% over3575 points · 1595 comments





31 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


I love this! All calories are not the

same to bees, especially HFCS.

Those other compounds are critical

to honey bee health and even

detoxification. A lot of work has

been done on p-coumaric acid and

it definitely enhances

detoxification via P450s. I am

currently working on a grant to

answer these questions about the

relationship of nutrition and

insecticide sensitivity at the colony

level in real world situations. Many

lab studies do not translate well to

the field and the complexity of the

colony. I would really love to study

the microbiome of bees raised on

honey and compare it to HFCS.

permalink parent

[–] Ironhorse86 7 points 5 hours ago*

My local college and

newspaper are currently

running a very similar study

using my colonies as their test

subjects :)

You can purchase P-Coumaric

for cheap from alibaba and

then account for the typical

levels (amounts available in

the available study) in your

pollen substitute patties - we

make our own with a

proprietary blend - no HFCS,

no Soy, only 46+% protein

brewers yeast and sugar with

2 secret ingredients. One to

proactively offset varroa mite

levels using a naturally

occurring vitamin that bees

love and the other to provide

insane amounts of nutrition

for the girls' production of

royal jelly,(hint: look up the

main component of the jelly)

which really assists in brood

rearing and queen feeding /






32 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

inciting.

If you're in southern CA feel free

to message me, I can fill you in

on where to start provided you

sign an NDA* ;)

My company motto comes from a

relative who was beekeeping

during the civil war:

"Take care of your bees and

they'll take care of you!"

*I intend on spreading all the

knowledge I know for the benefit

of all "beeks" once I grow my

company a little bit larger than it

is now - I didn't invent capitalism

and I sure do not like it, but as

long as it's how I feed my family

I'll play the game. :-/

Edit: for the record i have been

breeding my own queens for the

last two years (selecting the top

6 colonies after a year of

observation and recordings) after

having 20k in losses in rejected

queens from "store bought"

queens... This has a large impact

on their strength as I am sure

you could deduct, ala Hybrid

Vigor!

permalink parent


[–] mrbooze 7 points 5 hours ago*

The very idea that we're growing

corn to turn into sugar to feed to

bees so they can make sugar to

feed to us is perhaps one of the

most eminently fakakta examples

of humanity's capacity to

complicate things.

permalink parent

[–] Ironhorse86 16 points 4 hours ago

The difference in strength and

winter health when I do not

take their honey is why I no






33 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

longer extract it, and I only

changed this policy due to the

drought that started 4-5 years

ago in CA... but I swear by it

now, and make my living off of

pollination contracts - much to

the complaining of my wife and

relatives. ("What kind of

beekeeper doesn't have honey?")

Somewhere along the line

commercial operators began

treating bees like numbers

instead of like livestock, animal

husbandry is a lost concept for

many commercial beekeepers - I

have been in personal contact

with larger operators (20k+

colonies) and I'll say this : If

they were horses and not bees,

these people would have been on

the 10 O'clock news for animal

cruelty.

I don't always agree with

hobbyists who live in a bubble,

(their solutions rarely apply,

logistically, for a commercial

setting and budget) but there's

also some genuine wrong

occurring with many of these

larger outfits that pollinate the

majority of your food. I was

taught by fellas whose family

have been doing this since the

civil war days, and therefore I

know the precise status of every

single one of my colonies

because it is written on the lid.

(information up to a year old)

... as a result my peers often

consider me a "boutique"

commercial beekeeper... I may

make my living off of it, but I

don't treat them the same way







34 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM




[–] Neri25 5 points 7 hours ago

I've long wondered why we ship bees from

here to there and back again.

permalink parent


[–] SpookyBugGluten 10 points 6 hours ago

I'd say it's because we monoculture

crops (like almonds, citrus, apples,

etc.) in certain geographic locations,

and all the trees of that crop bloom at

once. At the same time, we've

degraded so much of the natural

landscape that native pollinators

depend on, so in effect we've created

little "pollination deserts". It's also

easier for growers to deal with a few

companies that manage a ton of bees,

rather than have them work with a ton

of local beekeepers who have fewer

hives each.

permalink parent


I'd like to add a question to your set:

4) Why are the hive-losses of beekeepers who

fail to engage in basic livestock hygiene being

counted as losses due to pesticides? The

beekeepers are OBVIOUSLY not intentionally

exposing the hives they lose to pesticides but

quite commonly ARE clustering hundreds of

hives together producing a huge infestation risk

on the scale of bubonic plague in Medieval

Europe. Why hasn't this been brought to the

public's attention the way that high density

chicken farming has?

permalink parent


[–] micromonas 18 points 5 hours ago

This is the best question on here, but I'll tell

will most likely

not provide an answer... This case was not

decided because the Plaintiffs actually

demonstrated that sulfoximine or






35 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

neonicotinoids cause CCD.

The court ruled in the Plaintiffs favor because they

demonstrated that the EPA and chemical

companies didn't conduct the proper scientific

studies on the effects of sub-lethal doses.

Basically, they won on a technicality due to the

EPA not doing it's job correctly.

permalink parent


You are correct. Pesticide registration is full

of nuance. There are lots of exceptions that

may be granted in the process. For

example, naturally derived products are put

on a fast track registration and

conditionally approved. In fact, most

pesticides are conditionally approved and

the period can last past the point of utility.

Studies on sublethal doses (which is a term

that I passionately hate for a number of

technical reasons) take a long time to do

and measuring endpoints can extend ad

infinitum. I have heard that these studies

on pollinators may add 2-3 years to the

registration process and increase costs

30-40%. This is a substantial investment

since it takes roughly 10 years and $250M

to develop and register a new insecticide.

My questions arose from the papers that

were cited in the AMA intro. They caused

me to query about the logical basis of the

case since it was argued that these

"sublethal dose" studies for sulfoxaflor are

lacking. I do think these studies are

warranted and beneficial though. Pesticide

registration needs to be more transparent

and consistent.

permalink parent

[–] PMMEYOURLONGNIPPLES 6 points 5 hours ago

This wont be answered. If any it wont happen

at least until a conversation with the expert

witness whose job is to deal in absolutes for the

purposes of litigation to refute in whole.

I don't think he is going to answer any hard






36 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

permalink parent


I would think that as a lawyer, he would

have these facts to make his argument and

anticipate defense questions.

permalink parent


[–] gog_magog 5 points 5 hours ago

Lots of similar comments here. That's

not how it works. They're not in court

arguing about the scientific nuances

about what causes CCD. It's about the

process of agency approval of a

pesticide (i.e., administrative law). The

EPA's task is to protect the

environment, so when they review a

pesticide's application for approval,

they essentially enter into a

cost-benefit analysis of whether the

pesticide's approval and subsequent

use will have a negative environmental

impact greater than any purported

benefit from the pesticide's availability

and use in the market. They are

required to perform an independent,

objective review of the scientific and

technical information submitted by the

company and do their own

supplemental analysis to determine

those impacts (obviously, the company

is going to say the pesticide is a-okay).

I know nothing about this case in

particular, but based on the quote from

one of the judges, it sounds like the

EPA's review was not legally adequate.

permalink parent

[–] ngwoo 115 points 7 hours ago

He's a lawyer, he shouldn't be expected to

answer scientific questions.

permalink parent

[–] Patius 16 points 6 hours ago

Even if he's fully aware of the answer,

he's not going to answer anything than

PR friendly softballs or something that

he can easily argue against. He's not

going to answer anything that can hurt






37 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

his case, as this isn't really anywhere

near done.

permalink parent


[–] hobbituary 33 points 7 hours ago

Lawyers with this level of specialization

are surprisingly scientifically literate,

however yes in this case this is way

too technical and specific.

permalink parent

[–] chugs1984 13 points 6 hours ago

I don't know....I'm understanding

it.

They're saying that its not clear

cut that the pesticide that was

pulled is responsible for CCD.

permalink parent

[–] dkinmn 5 points 4 hours ago

Whoa, slow down, Einstein.

permalink parent

[–] GenerativeSeeds 4 points 6 hours ago

The only thing to ask is about the

evidence that "links" CCD with the

products he had removed. Why else is

he here? Isn't that what he was doing

in court?

permalink parent

[–] twominitsturkish 19 points 7 hours ago

Questions with answers, the lawyer's

greatest foe ...

permalink parent

[–] MGY401 4 points 6 hours ago

Well I would at least expect him to

have answers for a few relevant

questions beyond whether or not he

likes a certain movie.

permalink parent

[–] daedaluswing 4 points 6 hours ago

Silence is a more honest answer than

anything he would give to a courtroom

if he had been asked this there.3575 points · 1595 comments





38 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM


I don't think he's gonna answer any

questions that prove his presentation to the

court wrong or may provide contradictory

information to his case or show that he

altered data or USED altered data in the

court case.

Honestly if someone WAS using that

Neonictinoid in places where Bees came

into contact with it in a commercial

application or setting they should have

been found, fined and lost their license. But

that didn't happen: Luddite

environmentalism went after a point of

order to remove a pesticide instead of

attack homeowners or applicators who

used it illegally.

permalink parent

[–] micromonas 6 points 5 hours ago

I'll tell you why /u/GregLEarthjustice most

likely will not provide an answer to this

question... This case was not decided

because the Plaintiffs actually

demonstrated that sulfoximine or

neonicotinoids cause CCD.

The court ruled in the Plaintiffs favor

because they demonstrated that the EPA

and DOW didn't conduct the proper

scientific studies on the effects of

sub-lethal doses on bees. Basically, they

won on a technicality due to the EPA not

doing it's job correctly.

Given that even the EU has approved of

this new pesticide (despite banning

neonicotinoids) I expect this will be only a

temporary revocation of approval for

sulfoximine

permalink parent


[–] cryolithic 17 points 6 hours ago

Good to see someone here taking him to town

on the false link of neonics to CCD.






39 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

Great questions, it's almost like people expect a

very strong and efficacious class of insecticide

to not work on hymenopterans.

permalink parent

[–] phymatidae 3 points 5 hours ago

Entomologist here. sometimes they don't.

There are some insecticides that honey

bees have no problem with at all, which

can be used to treat hives for other

arthropod pests in the hive.

permalink parent


[–] PilotPaul 20 points 7 hours ago

That last point took away my last remaining

shred doubt that he would lawyer-dodge these

questions. Thanks for being informed and

asking the tougher questions.

permalink parent

[–] SirToastymuffin 7 points 6 hours ago

Honestly Id rather no answer than a

bullshit law answer. He probably lacks the

depth of knowledge as he is, well, a lawyer,

not a bee-ologist (whatever they may be

called). It's a good thing to knock out

something killing bees, but the battle isn't

even near over, because the issue is bigger

than just pesticide

permalink parent

[–] PilotPaul 4 points 6 hours ago

The legal term for a biologist who

studies bees is now officially:

Bee-ologist. Thank you. And you are

absolutely right.... it'd still be nice to

see him try to defend his position for

once instead of only acknowledging

fawning praise.

permalink parent

[–] phymatidae 3 points 5 hours ago

For anyone wondering, the

technical term if apiologist.

permalink parent






40 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

permalink


So much remains to be done. Getting

sulfoxaflor off the market was a huge step in

the right direction, but there are a number of

older neonics still out there. We're committed

to working with the beekeepers to ensure that

we don't lose our bees.

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[–] klaymorekush 5 points 7 hours ago

What are the older neonics we should look

for? You said sulfoxaflor was very poorly

labeled. My question is, what/if are there

any hot words or anything I should look for

on tags when buying plants? Oh yea, and

you are awesome! Thanks for saving the

bees. Fuck wasps though... sulfoxaflor all

of those bastards

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[–] Bizarre_Botanicals 4 points 6 hours ago

Here's the wikipedia page for neonics

which lists the chemical and trade

names you might find. Imidacloprid is

the biggest seller.

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The older neonics are clothianidin,

imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, and

dinotefuran. You've got to read the fine

print, because there are a range of

pesticide products sold under snazzy

sounding brand names that contain

these active ingredients.

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[–] dbreeck 11 points 10 hours ago

Does your organization employ people to

go around and make sure these products

are actually removed from shelves? I was

always curious who followed up to make

sure that policy was being followed on the

ground-level. Thanks for all your help in

fighting the good fight! Congratulations on






41 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM



permalink parent

[–] [deleted] 8 hours ago*

[deleted]


[–] PastelFlamingo150 36 points 10 hours ago

What is going to replace neonicotinoids? Is the

alternative better or worse for bees and farmers?

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[–] burnice 12 points 7 hours ago

Does your organization have any interest in the

monarch butterfly? I read an article recently about

their dwindling numbers, which pointed fingers at

Monsanto's roundup killing milkweed plants, which

the monarchs depend on during their journey. The

article goes on to describe the (frustrating) study-

and-wait approach being taken by U.S.

environmental authorities.

What I wish I knew but am not sure how to know, is

whether there is legitimate scientific research

implicating glyphosates for the decline, and if that

research can be used in court to force the EPA to

issue a ban. You described earlier that you won

your bee case by showing the EPA didn't have

studies to prove the substance was safe for bees.

Could a similar strategy work for the monarchs?

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[–] maxxumless 38 points 9 hours ago

I keep hearing that bee numbers globally have been

trending upward, not downward, over the last 50

years. Is there any proof of this or a direct link

between these pesticides and declining bee

numbers? Or are the links still being explored? It

seems that with the door being left open by the

courts that there still isn't definitive proof yet.

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Is there an endangered species in the Sierra Nevada

that you think more people should know about and






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are interested in protecting? It seems so much focus is

on the "cute" or high profile animals.

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Mountain yellow-legged frog!

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[–] Undertoad 59 points 7 hours ago

According to Wikipedia, this frog EATS

BEES!!!

Is there something you're not telling us,

Mister "bee lawyer"??

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Mountain yellow-legged frog

“

[–] geofurb 19 points 7 hours ago

He's just been in it for the mountain

yellow-legged frogs the whole time!

Soylent yellow is bees, people!

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[–] Awarmingtrout 53 points 11 hours ago

Thanks a lot for fighting the good fight, my question

is how much other stuff needs to be removed to

save bees in your opinion?

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That's a good question, and I honestly don't

know the answer. To a large extent, the U.S.

Environmental Protection Agency was created

to sort this out and to ensure that pesticide use

does not put us all at risk. Unfortunately, EPA

hasn't been doing its job with respect to

neonics, and we're seeing colony collapse as a

result. EPA can and must do better!

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[–] Alabaz121 16 points 7 hours ago

And they should start by putting Springfield

in a dome!






43 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

Bees?

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[–] Adamsax 8 points 6 hours ago

Came for the AD reference, was not

disappointed.

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[–] tonuchi 5 points 6 hours ago

Took me awhile to get down here...

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[–] tonuchi 6 points 6 hours ago

Beads?

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[–] g2420hd 20 points 10 hours ago

Would those chemical companies now try and poach

you by offering obscene amounts of money?

Does this even happen ?

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Hah! I have no idea! I can tell you with great

confidence, however, that the people who work

at Earthjustice are not motivated primarily by

money. Our lawyers don't drive fancy cars, and

our executives definitely don't fly business. And

yet you can pretty much feel the enthusiasm

every time you walk in the door. For me, it's

the sense that we're giving a voice to the

voiceless. We're ensuring that the judicial

system isn't just for the rich, but available for

anyone and anything deserving of justice.

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[–] 1v1MeSkrub 105 points 10 hours ago

Would you rather fight a lawyer sized bee or 100

bee sized lawyers?

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[–] Brandwins 64 points 8 hours ago*

He already fought 100 corporate mosquitos,

Hey now, at least mosquitos can be






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somewhat repelled...

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[–] brokenfib 7 points 6 hours ago

Well that's just no fuckin' contest at all! A

lawyer sized bee would fuck your shit up fairly

quickly, whereas 100 bee sized lawyers, oh

man, there would be tiny lawyer mess all over

the soles of my shoes.

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[–] GenerativeSeeds 10 points 6 hours ago

What evidence was there that colony collapse

disorder was caused by the pesticide that you had

removed from the shelves?

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[–] OPs_Moms_Fuck_Toy 5 points 8 hours ago

When other pesticides have been pulled there have

been some significant unintended consequences.

How do your constituents go about making sure this

doesn't happen, now that they've succeeded in

banning this?

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[–] POCKALEELEE 5 points 5 hours ago

How much will you get paid?

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[–] lizzietishthefish 43 points 8 hours ago

There hasn't been a reported case of CCD in 3 years

and managed bee populations are increasing. With

these facts in mind, how do we know neonics are

harming bees?

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[–] RackedUP 10 points 5 hours ago

Is this actually true? That there hasn't been a

reported CCD in 3 years?

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http://earthjustice.org/

in the first place? Do you work on other projects






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Do you think the people at earthjustice should do their

own AMA? I've never heard of the org but an AMA

would be good exposure.

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I've been at Earthjustice for 15 years, and I

cannot imagine a better place to work. I've had

the opportunity to work on a huge range of

different cases on behalf of so many committed

people. In just about every case, we're up

against giant for-profit law firms with seemingly

endless resources. But the wonderful thing

about the legal system is that it still provides a

remarkably level playing field. It's been a

genuine privilege to do this work.

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[–] DaftPump 8 points 9 hours ago

Interesting. I don't live in the USA but it

seems from movies and TV this isn't always

the case. Good to hear it isn't reality.

permalink parent

But the wonderful thing about

the legal system is that it still

provides a remarkably level

playing field.

“

[–] Weasel_Cannon 8 points 8 hours ago

When you have a lawyer who does

their homework and knows what he's

doing, things are pretty fair. Even for a

nonprofit, I assume EarthJustice can

afford to employ a fairly competent

and knowledgeable attorney, as OP

seems to be. The problem in US law

systems is that many times it's a

multi-million dollar firm against a

handful of people who mean well, but

may not have the training or

know-how to navigate the legal hurdles

that the bigger company throws at

them.

Is there a point of no return and if so, how close are






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we to doing irreversible damage to bee populations?

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[–] kelsette [ ] 12 points 10 hours ago

Hi Greg. Well done! I'm a trainee lawyer (UK)

interested in environmental law. Were there times

that you became overwhelmed by the amount of

bee biology and scientific evidence you needed to

learn when you were putting together your case? If

so, how did you stay focused?

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These cases are complex, and the science can

seem daunting at times. You've basically got to

read everything two or three times before it

starts to make sense. But there's nothing more

satisfying than exposing a bad decision that's

based on smoke and mirrors.

permalink parent

[–] BaronPutz 3 points 8 hours ago

Do you see the same future/demise as imidacloprid?

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[–] exinferris 4 points 7 hours ago

Are you a Baldwin brother?

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[–] son_of_feeney 3 points 4 hours ago

A bee attorney. Excuse me. I have to get this out:

"Court is now in session. Greg, where did you get all

of this privatized information?"

BeeAttorney "None of your Beeswax"

"Honey, I'm home!" -BA "Oh, Greg. How is my little

busy bee today?"-wife "Blooming! I found a witness

whose testimony will be the bees knees!" "I'm so

proud of you! Pollen, come show daddy what you

drew today!"

"It's a hive with you the daddy bee and

queen be. It says I larva you!" -Pollen,

age 5, draws inside the lines.






47 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

So what you're saying is, you speak for the bees?

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[–] Pet3rWiggin 3 points 2 hours ago

Hi there!

My name is John and I serve on my school's student

government as Executive Vice President at Duke

University. Currently, I'm working with

environmental leaders and administrative officials to

ban neonicotinoids off of my campus green spaces.

Do you have any advice on how I can move forward

with a tangible agreement to institute this ban on

my school?

permalink

[–] red_autumn_luna 8 points 10 hours ago

What do you think will really happen if bees go

extinct?

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The reality is that commercial beekeepers will

go extinct (read, bankrupt) long before

honeybees. But the impact on agriculture and

our diet will be essentially the same, because

many of our most important crops absolutely

require commercially kept bees for pollination.

Agriculture as we know it just wouldn't be

possible without commercial beekeepers.

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[–] Davidjhyatt 11 points 9 hours ago

What if, with this product removed, the colonies

don't recover?

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[–] kypiextine 18 points 8 hours ago

Then they'll attack another chemical. That's

how chemophobic people work.

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[–] theonlybluecow 9 points 7 hours ago

I used to use scotts weed n feed every spring and

summer, I also bagged my grass clippings. Over the

years my lawn kept getting worse. I did'nt realize it

until I saw older photos. One day I was sitting in






48 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

the front yard, drinking a coffee and noticed a bee

buzzing around my coffee. I realized it had been ages

since I have seen a bee, and I was wondering if the

weed n feed was destroying clover and other things

that attracted bees. So I decided to stop the weed n

feed, and also decided to stop bagging the grass

clippings. That was three years ago, my grass is now

lush and healthy. It's less cost, and less work, plus I

see bees buzzing around clover and other things

growing. Home lawncare is a multi billion dollar a year

industry, does using things like weed n feed eliminate

the plants that bees need or want? I'm just one home

owner with a third acre, but if there are millions of

people using those products, are we eliminating

millions of acres of plant life that bees want or need?

EDIT: I'm a little drunk right now, please excuse

formatting and any grammar or spelling errors.

permalink


[–] mowww 3 points 4 hours ago

Your lush lawn is a result of you returning

roughly 1lb/1000sq ft of nitrogen back into the

soil by not bagging your clippings. Your grass

isn't reliant on bee pollination to be green,

that's not how that works. Herbicides such as

that found in general "weed and feed" mixes

have very little toxicity to insects, that's why

they're deemed herbicides and not insecticides.

Bees may like the clover or various flowering

weeds you now have around and yes some of

those "weeds" can fix nitrogen in your root zone

which may help greening up. There are too

many factors to say that weed and feed was

making your lawn look awful, there's a lot of

evidence that says it has the opposite effect.

Take a minute to understand the soil system as

a whole... That's where the nutrients that keep

your grass standing and green are and

replacing that nitrogen through leaving

clippings and using nitrogen that you've built up

in the system over time.

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Congrats, OP, on your victory and on answering all

the softball questions, including the ones much

smaller than anything that remotely questions your






49 of 51 9/15/2015 11:48 PM

assertions, such as this, this, and this huge one, all

asking for more depth on the supposed link between

neonicotinoids and CCD.

So let me just ask one more time: Are the links still

being explored? How do we know neonics are harming

bees? What caused CCD/absconding/leaving disease

before neonicoinoids were used?

Thanks again for taking this time to serve your own

interests!

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[–] humbuzzer 10 points 8 hours ago

I am a commercial beekeeper in California and I

was very excited to hear this news. Thank you for

your work! I would love to see a complete ban on

neonics. I have a few questions, please

excuse/ignore if they are a repeat of any already

asked as I haven't read the full AMA yet. How long

did it take to get this case through the courts from

beginning to end? Will you be the lead on any future

pesticide cases? Is there anything beekeepers can

do to assist in this process? Thank you again for

your hard work.

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[–] kypiextine 30 points 8 hours ago*

How excited are you for pyrethroids to come back

on the shelves? Especially considering the fact that

those actually will hurt bees and are actually shown

to in studies! Or did you not have a backup plan to

actually help farmers? I suppose you'd rather we all

go back to a day and age when people starved to

death because we couldn't produce enough food to

feed the population?

There's a word for you: a chemophobic. Science

isn't good enough for you, only your gut will tell you

the truth, huh?

**Edit: Fuck your down votes. Your circle jerk is

fucking endangering lives. You may not see it from

your position of "armchair activist", but people are

fucking starving and you guys are encouraging

So much of reddit is all "YAY SCIENCE". Science is

still science. Mother Earth Journal and Natural






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REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc.

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[–] Professor_pranks 10 points 6 hours ago

As a farmer myself, thank you for saying this.

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The Beekeeping Industry Ama