FollowingisatranscriptofaconversationwithCyrusBacchi,StuartL.MarcusandNigelYarlettonMay21,2014.InterviewbyDonaldShankweilerandCarolFowler.

Somethingsnotonthetape:TherearepapersofSeymourHutneratUMassAmherst,archivist:MichaelDolan,DepartmentofGeologicalSciences,UMass,Amherst01003

Helpfulbooks:AnnSjoerdsma:StartingwithserotoninSidharthaMukherjeeTheemperorofallmaladies:Abiographyofcancer-------------SM:Andthere’soneanecdotethatSeymourstartsbutneverfinishesaboutwhenIcametotheLabwhenIwas14yearsold,andheaskedHerman…andIaskedHerman…IaskedSeymourbecauseIwasgoingtoreproduceZinderandLederberg’sUtubeexperimentbutwithFisherculturecellswhichistoshowthattherewerecancerviruses.SoIwasgoingtodocancercells.Theyusedittoshowthattherewas…geneticmaterialcouldbepassedbybacteriophagebackandforththroughaUtubewithafilterinthemiddle.AndIwantedtodothatwithFisherculturecellsattheageof14.AndSeymourtoldmewhyIcouldn’tdoit.InhisopinionwhyIcouldn'tdoit.Andhe…CAF:Washeright?SM:Ineverfoundout.Butanyway...Atthetime.SoIwaskindofmiffed,andsoIsaid,wellwhatisitthatyoudohereanyway?Becausehewaslounging…Itwasat305East43rdStreetin1961.Andhewaslounginginhisbeachchairatthetime,sittingatthiswoodendesk,whichwasoverflowingwithcorrespondenceandpapersandnotebooks.AndIsaidwhatisitthatyoudohere?AndHermanBakerwhoIdidn’tnoticewasoverattheendoftheroominoculatingsometubeswithapipetteandaBunsenburner,andhe(Seymour)said:‘That’sagoodquestion.Herman,whatdowedohere?’AndHermansaid:‘We’reasoupkitchenforbugs.’Andthat’stheactualquotefromHerman.AndIwenttoHerman’sfuneralnotlongago.CAF:What’shislastname?SM,CB:HermanBakerCB:HebasicallyworkedwithSeymourforIdon'tknowsince…SM:ProbablylongerthananybodyCB:Yeah.Hestartedworkinginthemid50s,andhewasatCollegeofMedicine,NewJerseyCollegeofMedicine,Rutgers,OK?SM:AndhewasaFullProfessorofNutritionandBiochemistry[Dept.ofPreventiveMedicineandCommunityHealth]atUniversityCollegeofMedicineCB:ButhewasessentiallySeymour’sassistantformany,manyyears.Hedid…hepublishedallofthevitaminassaysthatSeymourdid.Hepublished…SM:Weevendidsomeworkonpatientstreatedwithinterleukin2in1987andpublishedinCancerResearchtoshowthat…becauseyouknownutritionalbiochemistsarealwayslookingforreproduceablephysiologicalstress,andgivingapatientinterleukin2threwtheminto,basically,shock,anditwasareproduceable

septicshockcondition.SoIsaid:Hermanthisisagreatchancetolookatwhathappenstothebodyunderthiskindofreproduceablestress,anditturnedouttobereallyinteresting.AndvitaminCturnedouttobetheonlynutrientonthefaceof..[…]…CB:I’mgoingtocopyallforthisforyou.ButwhatIwanttodoiskeepthis.SM:…fromthebodyduringtreatment.Andforabout2weeksofthetreatment.Andithadneverbeenseenbeforethatithappened.Itwasbeingsequestered,mostlikely,inmicrocells.ButsoHerman…andSeymourisacoauthoronthepaperinCancerResearch.Soit‘sjustanotherexampleofyouknowtheHaskinsLaboratoriesoctopusasSeymourusedtoliketocallitwheretheresearchextendedintostrangeways.Fromushighstudents.CF:Well,Iwasjustgoingtosay…Soyou’reoneofthehighschoolstudentsthatheservedasmentorof.SM:IamActually,hecalledchickens,butreallythatwasn’tthetermheused.Heusedtheterm,juniorbuglover.Thatwastheterm.AndCyandIwerejusttalkingthatthereisahugecollectionofHaskinsLaboratoriesChristmascardsthatSeymourwouldsendout.Hewoulddrawthecartoons,Ithinkhimself,didn’the?NY:Yes,hedid.SM:Hedrewthecartoonshimself.Andhewroteapoemon…everyyear.Andthepoemwas…ImeanifyoueverreadLewisThomas’[LivesofaCell]poetry...LewisThomaswasagreatpoetandessayist.ButSeymourwasasuperbpoet,andhispoems,however,usuallyrequiredaPhDinbiochemistryatleast.AtleastonePhDormaybetwotofigurethemout.DS:HisremarksinthistranscriptIthinkrequirethat.CB:That’swhatwetriedtodo…SM:Hesometimesisdisjointedandsometimeshasonlypartialsentences.Andhewasthatwayinlifetoo.DS:Withre-readingyougetmore.SM:Yes,youdogetmore.CB:Didyouseethatstuffabouttheatomicbombinthere?Andchemical-biologicalwarfare?Ifyoureadthroughthat…EverytimeIgothroughthosetranscripts,Igetsomethingmoreoutofthem.It’sscary,itreallyis.Theywere…CarylHaskinswasassistanttoVannevarBushwhowasadirectorofyouknowresearchduringWorldWarII,youknow,foreverythingandCaryl…CarylHaskinswashisassistant.Sotheydothingsthatalotofpeopledidnotknow.DS:FrankCooperwasinthatgrouptoo.CB:Yes,absolutely.DS:SoIwanttofollowuponaquestionthatCarolstartedtoask.Atage14youmetSeymourandhowdidhehavetentaclesthatreachedtoalltheseschools.SM:WellmyinvolvementwithHaskinscamecompletelybyaccident.In1957,asyouknow,RussialaunchedSputnik.Andthatwas…theUnitedStatesreactedbecauseitwasthecoldwarbydecidingithadasciencegap.Andithadtofillthesciencegap.Soitimmediatelythrewtonsofmoneyathighschoolsandcollegestosetupsciencetrainingprogramsforsmartpeopleorpeoplewhowereinterestin

scienceortogetpeopleinterestedinscience.Andmyteacheratthetimesaid...youknow,heknewIwasinterestedinscience,andhesaidwellyouknowthereisthisNSFprogram.AndIappliedtoseveralNSFprograms,andIwasputonthewaitinglistforQueensCollege…yesforaQueensCollegeprogram.Andthenhesaid,well,IheardofthislaboratoryinManhattanthattakeshighschoolstudents.Hesaid,butIdon’tknowverymuchaboutit.Ijustknowit’son43rdStreet.Andit’scalledHaskinsLaboratories.AndsoIlookeditupinthephonebook.AndIcalledHaskinsLaboratoriesfromtheonetelephoneintheapartment.AndSeymourdefinitelywastheguyItalkedto,becausehehadthehighsqueakyvoiceandnobodyelsedid.Andhesaid:Oh,comein.Saturday.We’reallhereSaturday.Comeonin.AndsoIgotinmylittlesuit.Andmyfatheraccompaniedme.AndIhadmysuitandmytie.Weendedupbeforethisbigreddooron305East43rdSt.AndIsaidit’slocked,whatamIsupposedtodo.Andtherewasabelloverthere,somyfathersaid:ringthebell.SoIrangthebell.AndIheardawindowgoupliketwofloorsaboveme.Andsomebodystucktheirheadoutandsaid:Stepback!AndIsteppedback.Anddowncamethislittleplasticbottlewitharubberstopperinitandithadthekey.AndIopenedthedoor,andit'sahugedoor.Andwalkedupthisdark…Therewasafreightelevator,notworking.ofcourse,onSaturday.AndIwalkedupthis…Hesaid:”Comeuptothefourthfloor”SoIwalkedupthesericketystairstothefourthfloor.WhereIwalkedthrough,asit'sdescribedthere;youknowthelibrarywashereandthedeskswerehere.Therewaslinoleum,whichturnedtoawoodenfloor.Andthesewereroomsthatlookedverymuchliketheserooms[atHaskins-Pace]atthetime.Andthat’swhereIfoundhimsittinginhisbeachchairwhenIwas14yearsold.Andhesaid:Well,youcouldstayhereanddosomeresearchifyouwantto.Hesaid:Youhavetotakeoffthejacketandtiethough.AndIsaid:WhatcouldIdo.SoHerman[Baker]says;Wellyoucouldscrewthesebottlecaps…theseStubecapsonandthenyoucouldtellyourmotheryouspenttheentiredayscrewing.It’ssoBaker;it'sHerman.Butthatwasapivotalmomentinmyentirelife.Thepivotalmomentinmycareer.SotheHaskinsoctopusasitwerestemsfrompeoplelikeme,DanPetrylac.Oneguywhoisnotmentionedinthere[NyeOralHistory]is…theyeast…DavidKaback,theyeastgeneticistwhoisaveryfamousyeastgeneticistactually.Seymourmustnothavelikedhimthatmuchsincehedidn’tmentionhim.Hewasamama’sboyweallknewthat.CB:ButDavyKabackwassortoflikeStuart,inthesensethathecameinlateron.SM:Buthewasveryyoungwhenhestarted.Hewasveryyoung.SoIthinkthattheHaskinsoctopusissimplythatpeople…Seymourdidn’t…hehadhisworldviewwhichwascompletelyoppositeofmostofthescientificworldviewatthetime.SoHaskinswasatotallywonderfulplacetoworkandgrowup.BecauseIgrewupthere.WithCy.WhenCywasagraduatestudentandIwasacollegestudent.AndCyandIworkedtogetherwhenhewasagraduatestudentonhisthesis.Sothatwassoexciting.Butwebasicallyspreadaround.AndSeymourhopedthatwewouldspreadthegospelofprotozoanmodelsofdiseaseandhumanstatesofmetabolism.Andfewofusreallyunderstoodeventodayeverything...hisvision.BecauseSeymourwastheonlymanIknewtothisdaywhocouldsynthesizematerialfrom20differentsources,20differentfieldsofscienceatleast.CB:Andputitalltogether

SM:Andputitalltogether.CB:Imeanyoucanreadfromthesetapes.IfyouheardthemorreadthetranscriptsofSeymourtalkingyoucanseehimtalkinginthere,becausehechanges…heshiftsgears…hetalksaboutcertainthings,andhepullsstufftogether.Sometimesitsconfusing,but,youknow,there’satrendtoit.Andthat’swhattheinterestingpartofhimwas.Hewasageniusandsomebodythatyounever,evermeetagain.SM:ThetermRenaissancemanisusedtoooftenthesedays.ButSeymourwastrulytheonlymanIknowthatIwouldeven,youknow,deigntocallaRenaissanceman.Hewasaman..HemappedwithhisbrotherthetrailsupintheAdirondacks.Hehadstories,poemspublishedintheNewYorkermagazine.Hewasamasterwriterandstylistandliterarypersona.Hewastheoppositeofthewithdrawnscientist.Buthe…theunfortunatethingisthattheonlyreasonthatSeymourdidnotgetelectedtotheNationalAcademyofSciences.Icantellyou.Iknow.AndthereasonIknowisbecauseIinterviewedwiththegreatgeneticistBarbaraMcClintock.Veryfamous.GottheNobelPrizeforextra-chrom..extra-nuclear[bioinheritance?].AndIwasinterviewingforapostdocatColdSpringsHarboratthetime.That’swhereshegrewhercorninherlastdaysanddideverything.AndIwasinterviewingwithsomebodyelse,butshewasmycontactthroughmysponsorsat[…]university.AndIsaidtoBarbara,doyouknow,orDr.McClintock,doyouknowSeymourHutner,becauseshehadmentionedSeymour.Isaid:DoyouknowSeymourHutner.Shesaid:Yes,IknowSeymourformany,manyyears.Hementionsheractuallyononeofthesetapes.CF:Yes,hedoes;hewasherstudent.SM:Isaid:CanIaskyouaquestionabouthim?Shesaid:Yes,sureyoucan.Isaid:DoyouthinkhewillevergetelectedtotheNationalAcademyofSciences?Andshesaid;Never.AndIsaid:Why?Andshesaid:He’spissedtoomanypeopleoff.AndyoucantellfromthetoneinthetranscriptsthathedelightedinpuncturingtheballoonsoftheseGeheimratprofessortypeswhoattempttoruntheworld.DS:Iwould..whenIwasat43rdStreet,youknow,Ihadnothingtodowiththatgroup.ButIwouldmeetSeymourontheelevatorandhe’dalwayshavesomethingtosayonthewayup.Andthatwasaslowitdidn’thavetogomanyfloors,butitwasveryslow.SM:Hewouldcomeovertoyouandsay:Ijustdestroyedthisguyinareview.Youwanttosee?AndIamsurehedidittoyouguysallthetime.AndtheproblemwiththatisthatSeymourwastheonlyonewhocouldwriteareviewofanarticlelikethat.TherewasnobodyintheentireacademicworldwhocouldusethekindofreferencesandgrammarasSeymourdid.CB:Irecallhesaid:Thisguyisasalamislicer.Anditactuallywentoutlikethat:Hewriteslikehe’sasalamislicer.14:50SM:SoSeymourreallydidnotgetthecredit…ThoseofuswhocanjudgehimobjectivelyIthinkatthispointintime…Besidesthetremendouspolymath…andhehewasapolymathwhotouchedeverythingfrom,youknow,nuclearphysicsandradiationtoengineeringtobiochemistryandabstrusebiochemistryandyouknowhesetupthefirstassaysforthevitamin.Therewerenomachines…

CB:Theydeveloped,probablybetweenHermanandheandLuigiProvosoli,becauseLuigibroughttheoriginalEuglena.Andthat’sthebasisforalltheseassaysforB12,folicacid,niacin,panthothenicacid.Allthesedifferent,youknow,differentorganisms,theydissectedthemediumuntilapointwheretherewasnoB12initforexample;thentheywouldgetittoapoint,themedium,whereitwasdefinedthattheykneweverythinginitanditwouldrespond…theonlythingthatitwasmissingwasvitaminB12andthenyouwouldgetlikealinearrelationshipintermsofgrowthtoamountofvitaminB12.Itwasbeautiful.SM:Andsoitwasextremelycheap,easytouse.Imeanoneofthethings,youknow,thatIaddedtoitwasthat...Seymourwasalwayslookingforsimpletechniques.AndthefactisthatSeymourhadsaidinmypresenceandmanytimesthatthewayhedefinedthesimplicityofatechniquewasthatifhecouldn’tteachittoahighschoolstudentinanafternoon,itwasn’tworthdeveloping.AndItrytothinkofallthethingsthattheydonowadaysthatyoucanteachtoahighschoolstudentinanafternoon.Youprobablycanbecauseyousimplyinjectthemintoamachineandthemachinedoesallthework.Buthewas…Soagain,that’stheHaskinsoctopus.TheHaskinsoctopuswaspeoplewhokindofwereraisedbyHaskinsandwentforthintotheworld.Theproblemwasthatwecouldn’tcarrySeymour’smessagetotheworld,becauseitwaswaytoocomplicatedforus.WhenIwenttomedicalschoolafterbeingatSloanKetteringforanumberofyears,whilebeingatSloanKetteringforanumberofyears,hewasabsolutelythrilled,because:Aha!Nowyou’llinfiltratethemedicalworldandconvertthem.Isaid:Yeah.Butthephilosophyofyouknowscienceoverallandequalityforall.Imean,doyouknowwhatitwasliketobeahighschoolstudentandtositforteainatableverymuchlikethetable…likethistableorthetablesinthatroomandsitdownandhaveteawithsomebodylikeE.LesterSmith,whoyoulearnedwasaNobelPrizewinnerandotherpeople,IthinkJacquesMonodvisitedonedayandyouknowvariousotherNobelPrizewinnerswhocametovisitSeymour.Andweallsataroundourlittletableandhadourteaorourbitterlemonoreggcreamsorwhatever.CB:Yeah.Fouro’clockeverythingwouldstop.Basically.AndSeymour…wewouldhavehighteawithSeymour.SM:SoSeymourtaughtwhatscienceis.Imean..CF:ButhismannerwithstudentsandwithhiscolleaguesatHaskinsseemsverydifferentfromhisdestructionofpeoplethat…SM:Seymourwasalwayscritical.Unlessyouwereblond,female,andskinny.AndIrememberhimwalkingover…WhetheritwasCathy[Podgorney]orsomeonelikethat…Cathy…AndhewalkedovertoheronedayandI’mslavingoveranexperiment.It’slike100degreesinhere.Andhegoes:HeyCathy,youwanttobeanauthoronmynextpaper?I’mgoing…Younevermadethatoffertome,Seymour.Hesaid:You’renotblondandskinny,andfemale.Sorry.Nohemadenobonesabouthissexism.ItwasaverypositiveformofsexismforpeoplelikeCathyandyouknowKate.Buttheydidtheirownstufftoo,but..DS:IusedtoseealotofnunsgoinguptheelevatortoSeymour’slab.CB:Ohyeah.That’stheFordhamcrew.SM:That'stheFordhamconnection.That’stheFordhamconnection.

CB:Iwasinthefirstclassof…Seymour’sfirstclassatFordham.HebecameanadjunctbecauseheknewJohnMcLaughlin,whowasinthelab,andyouknowanoceanographer,analgophysiologist.AndsowhenhebecameChairmanatFordham,Biology,Seymourwasoneofhistoppicksasanadjunct.AndIwantedto…HehadacoursecalledAdvancedMicrobialPhysiology.Andthat’sreallywhatIwantedtolearnbecauseIhadMicroinundergraduateandIwantedtobuildonthat.SoIsawthiscourseandeverybodysaid:Oh,Don’ttakeit;he’sgoingtobereallybad;he’sgoingtobetough.SoIsaid:Well,I’dstillliketotakeit.SoIdid.Andwestartedoutwith43people,andwewoundupwith15attheendofthesemester.Youknow,andSeymourwouldsay,youknow:Sure,bring…there’satestnextweek.Bringallthetextbooksyouwant.Sopeoplecameinwiththeirlittleredwagonsfullof…andallofthis.Butitwasn’tgoingtodothemanygood,becauseyouhadtoknow…SM:Youhadtothink.CB:Youhadtosynthesizewhathehadbeengoingover.DS:That’swonderful.CB:Andthat’sthewayheworked.Andthat’swhyhewasobtuseandallofthat.Buthemadeyoulearn.SM:Butthatwasagraduatelevelcoursethewayhetaughtit.CB:Yes,itwas,yeah.Wellallthesepeoplequit,because…Nearly2/3oftheclassquit.Andoneofthesurvivorswasoneofthe…SisterSally,shewasaDominicannun,andshegotherdoctorateandprobablylefttheorderafterthat.Wewerenotableinthatwehadlikeuh,wehadSeanFanelliwhobecamewhat?PresidentofNassauCommunityCollege.Andhejustretiredayearortwoago,buthewasayearbehindmeatFordham.AndFatherMcCarthywhowasatFordham,buthepassedaway.SM:Didheget…Wasn’theaprofessoratFordhamatthetime,ordidhegethisPhD?CB:HegothisPhD.Buthehadhypercholesterolemiaandatthetimetheycouldn’tdoanything.Likehediedatabout48ofaheartattack.Youknow,itwasreallybad.Hewasagreatguy.SM:TherewasthisgreatJesuitconnectionwithHaskinsandasaniceJewishboyIusedtobeintimidatedbythesightofthenunswalkingaround.Becausethiswaspre-VaticanII,Ithink.CF:Butwhywouldtheybetakingthesecourses?Weretheygoingtoteachscience?CB:Well,yeah.Theyweregoingtogettheirdoctorates.DS:Thatwasoneofthemainthingsnunsdid,Iguess,wasteachinNY.SM:EspeciallyatFordham.CB:Wehadalotofclericalpeopleinit.SM:Boycouldtheydrink.Ohmygod.DS:Irememberafter,soonafter…maybethefirsttimeImetSeymoursoonafterIcametoHaskinsLabs,IaskedhimifhetaughtandhesaidhedidatFordham.Thenhesaidsomethingthatsurprisedme.Hesays;I’mathornintheirflesh.Istillrememberhimsayingthat.SM:Andheenjoyedbeingathornintheirflesh.Heneverrolledoverforanybody.Andifyoupushedhim,hebecamemuchmorevocalandnasty.23:22DS:ButhecouldtalkBiblewiththerestofthem.

CB:Ohabsolutely.SM:Seymourhadveryclosetoaneideticmemory.Andhecouldrememberchapterandverseasgoodasanypriestcould.Andhecouldjustcomerightbackatanybodywithanything.Andit’soneofthereasonsitwassointimidatingtobewithhim.Butyouhavetounderstand.Hemadeusallfeelthatitwas---evenasahighschoolstudent—therewasthiswonderfulfeelingof…youcounted.Evenifallyouweredoingwasscrewingontesttubes.Becauseyouhadteaatfouro’clockwitheverybodyelse.Youwereallowedtolistentoandjoinintheconversation.Youknow…CB:Hetookyouonwithnotranscripts,norecommendations.SM:Transcript!Iwasafourteenyearoldhighschoolfreshman.WhatkindoftranscriptcouldIpossiblyhave.CB:Well,no.SM:IpublishedmyfirstpaperwhenIwas18yearsoldfromHaskinsLaboratories.CB:Yeah.SM:Soin1964,Iworkedwiththisguy,ArtZahalsky.WhosenameismentionedandmisspelledasZahlskyinthe[Nye]transcript.DS:Artwasbeingpagedallthetime.SM:Yes.AndArt…Itwasthesimplestexperimentintheworld.Ithinkwewerelookingatnitro-quinolineN-oxideandmixingitwithbacteria.Andthebacteriawouldtakeitup.Andwe’dputitthroughaMiliportfilterandseehowmuchofthenitro-quinolineN-oxidewastakenup.Andthentrytocompetewithvariousaminoacidsandseewhatpathwaywasbeingusedtodoit.AndwepublishedanoteinNature.ItwasZahalskyandMarcus,1964.Soyouhadanincredibleopportunitytolearnscience.AndIdidn’tthinkanyotherplaceelsewasdifferent.Youknow,whenIwasfortunateenoughtogotocollege,IwenttocollegeinBrooklynCollegewhereImetMelBelsky,whoisalsomentionedinthetranscript,andProfessorSelsky.SoitwasSelskyandBelsky.AndBensky,BarbaraBenskywasworkingthere.AndSeymouralwayswantedtopublishapaperthatwasSelsky,Belsky,BenskyandZahalsky.Neverreallygottoit.ButthatwastheSeymourconnectiontoBrooklynCollege.ToMelBelskywhohadworkedwithSeymourbackinthe40sIthinkaswell.And50s.CB:Ididn’tgetabioforhim.WhatItriedtodoinhereisputlittlebiosofthepeoplethatwere,youknowlikealineortwo,births,andallofthat.Theonethingthoughisthat,talkingaboutSeymourandhisknowledgeoftheBible.Whenhisfirstwife,Reina,died…unfortunatelyshewasterminallyillwithbreastcancerandsheknewasaphysicistthattheyweregoingtoirradiateher.Soshetookcyanideandthatwasit.Shedied,Ithinkin‘53or‘54somewhereinthere.Butit’shere.AndhethenmetMargaritawhowas…,MargaritaSilvawhowasaprofessorofdermatologyatColumbiaMedicalSchool,andshewasfromaPuertoRicanfamily,Catholic.SoSeymourconvertedtoCatholicisminorderto…Yes!SM:Ineverknewthat.Ineverknewthat.Forsomereason,henevertalkedaboutit.CB:Yeahhedid.He…Yeah.SM:Iwouldhavelovedtohaveseenthat…CB:Well.Margaritatoldmethat.

SM:Seymourrecitingthecatechism.Thatwouldhavebeengreat.God,IwishIhadbeenaflyonthewall.CB:Youdidn’tknowthat!SM:No,ohgod.CB:Thatwasacurveball.HemetMargaritaandshewashismatch.Shewouldn’ttakeanythingfromhim,youknow,anyofhisguff,andshe’dgiveitrightbacktohim.DS:Sheisdeadnowtoo?CB:Ohyeah.SM:Buttheydidloveeachother.CB:Ohyeah.Buttheywereabsolutely,youknow,meantforeachother.Theywere…DS:Westartedthisprojecttoolate.ItwouldbesonicetointerviewMr.Haskinsandsomeoftheotherpeople.CB:Ohyeah.SM:Well,IseethatyouhaveFrankCooperandwho’stheguy…CB:Caryl…CarylHaskinsandSM:Yeah…who’stheguywhowastheaccountant?CF:RayHuey?SM:RayHuey,yeah.Ithoughthemadesomeinterestingpointsinhisthing.Butwhotruly...youknow.IthinkifyougottointerviewDavidKaback.Don’tyouthink?CF:HowdoyouspellKaback?CB:K-a-b-a-c-kSM:K-a-b-a-c-k.IthinkIhavehisnumberhere.BecauseImethimatHerman[Baker]’sfuneral.CB:Ohright.SM:He’spracticallybaldwhichisagreatconsolationtome.Herewego.He’satRutger’sNewJerseyMedicalSchool.Heisaprofessorthere,afullprofessorandhe’sayeastgeneticist.Sohiscellphoneis917-561-1050.Andhisemailiskaback@rutgers.eduCF:Great,thankyou.SM:AndthereasonIsaythatisbecausehereally…heknewSeymourprettywellalso,andhewashereafterme,buthewasyoungeratthattime.CB:ButDavyhelpedme.Youknow,hewasgrowingCrithidia.SM:Thereyougo.CB:Heusedtogrow50litersofCrithidiaatonetime.Youknow,Iwasisolatingmitochondria.Sowewouldcomeinat5inthemorningandspindownallofthismediagettingtheseorganismsandwindupwith30or40gramsofCrithidia.SM:Thatwasgreathavingslavelabor.CB:Itmean,I’mtellingyou,itwasfantastic.Ittooktwoofusandtwomachinestodothis;wedidn'thavethecontinuous…Bertsetthatup,thecontinuousflow.30:30DS:Ineedtoaskasortoforientingquestionaboutthescience.Igatherfromthetranscript,someofSeymour’sremarks,thatwhenhewasayoungmanthatmicrobiologywastransformedfromataxonomicsciencetoamoreanalyticbiochemicalkindofthing.CB:Yeah,physiological..mmhmm

DS:Andhemusthaveplayedaprettybigroleinthistransformation.Isthat,wouldthatbeacorrectinference?CB:Wellhediditfor,wellnotsomuchfor,wellbacteria,butreallyfortheprotozoa.Becauseprotozoologythenwasadescriptivefield..Itwasalltaxonomy.DS:Right..That’swhathesaid.CB:Andthenwhenhefounded,oroneofthefoundersoftheSocietyofProtozoologists,andhemadeitabiochemicalandaphysiologicalapproach.Yeah.Hebrokeitoutofthemoldofsimplydescriptivetaxonomy.SM:That'sagoodwayofputtingit.ButSeymour…atthetime,youknow,Seymour’sPhDmentorwas[JamesB.]Sumnerwhowasthefirstpersontocrystallizeanenzyme,gottheNobelPrizeforit.DS:OK.SM:UreaseDS:Urease!SM:AndSumnerusedto…SeymourusedtosaythatSumnerwouldcomplainbecausepeoplewouldstealhisureasetotiphuntingarrowswith.Becauseitwaspoisonousifitgotintothebloodstream.DS:WhatwasSumner’sfirstname?CB:J.B.SM:J.B.Sumner…Yeah.CB:JamesB.,Ithink,JamesB?Ithink.DS:Thefirsttocrystallize…CB,SM:UreaseSM:Aprotein,anenzyme,ureaseDS:Thefirsttodiscoverthatanenzymeis…enzymesareproteins?SM:No,thefirstonetoactuallypurifyitintoacrystallineform.Hewasthefirstpersontopurifyanenzymeintoacrystallineform.Andthatwasatrulybiochemicalrevolution.Thatstartedtheentire,youknow…peoplecouldactuallydobiochemistry.Theyreally…Beforethen,theyweresimplydoingmetabolism,biometabolism.AndyouknowhementionsOttoWarburgintherewhowasoneoftheGeheimrattypeProfessors.EveryonewasusingWarburgmanometerstostudymetabolism.AndSeymour…sorry,andSumnercreatedtherevolutionthatledtotheactualstudyofhowmetabolismworksandhowyoucanalteritandhowyoucanstudyit.ButSeymour’sgreatcontributionwas…Imean,youknow,andunfortunatelyIthinkhispersonalitywaswhatkeptitfromgettingmoreacceptedintotheworld.Heneversoughtpublicity.Heexpectedtheworldwouldcometohim.Becausehewassobrilliant.Hewouldtellyouhowbrillianthewas.WhenIwas14Iwalkedin;hesaid:“DoyouwanttoseehowfamousIam”?Isaid:“Sure.”WhatdidIknow?Iwas14yearsold.Heshowsmealetter.“ThisisfromaNobelPrizewinner.”Youknow,terrific!Ifyouhaveaneedtoshowa14yearoldhowfamousyouare…OK.Butatthesametime,hisattitudetowardtheworldis,youknow:I’mbrilliant;I’mrevolutionary;Icandoallthisstuff.Youknowitwashardtogetgrants.AnygrantsthatcametoHaskinswerepurelyonmerit,becausetherewasnopoliticalfavorsbeingdone!Ifanybodycouldcriticizethecrapoutofthem,theycertainlywould.

CB:InonestorythathetellsaboutSumnerwasthatSumnerhadonearm.Itwasahuntingaccident.Idon’tknowwhichone,buthewoulddohiscrystallizationofureaseandprecipitationwithammoniumsulfate,hewoulddoitsinglehandedwithonehand.Hewoulddoallthisstuff.Sosomebodycomplainedthattheycouldn’trepeat,youknow,oneofthepartsoftheexperiment.Doyourememberthis?SM:NoIdon’trememberit.CB:OK!SothedealwasthatSumner…youknow,itwasn’tlike:youaddthisandtheammoniumsulfateatthesametime.No.Hehadtoaddit,thenstirit,then,youknow,putthebeakerunderhisarm…stumporwhateverandthencomeback.Sothetimeittookforhimtoaddthisammoniumsulfateandswirlitwascriticaltothewaythattheenzymeprecipitated.Sothensomebody,Iforgetwhoitwas,buttheysaidthattheyhadtowatchitandthentheyunderstoodbecauseittookhim,Idon’tknow,10or15secondsorwhateverthetimeintervalwas.Youknowitwasn’taddedallatonce.Itwasaddedgradually;andithappenedovertimeandsoforthandsoon.CB:Inbiochemistryunfortunately…that’swhyperhapsoneofthegreatestcontributionstobiochemistrywasthevolumeseriesmethodsinenzymology,becausemethodsinenzymologyreallycapturedthingslikethat…Inotherwords,howto…Itwasarecipe…Basically,itwasaseriesofrecipesandtechniquesofhowtodothings.CB:Itwasacookbook.SM:Itwasacookbookbutaveryimportantcookbookthatallthebiochemistsneededtodostuff.Imeanbiochemistry…Youknow,anorganicchemistwouldneverrecognizewhatabiochemistdidbecausethey…wewereworkingwithbig…withhugemoleculesandwedidn’thaveretortsandmassspectrometersandthingslikethat.So..S.eymour’srevolutionwastwothings.Numberonetheuseof….thedevelopmentofwhatarecalledmicrobialassays.Microbiologicalassays.ThatwasallSeymour’s.Now,whyisn’tthatimportantnow?Becausenowweusemachinesforallthatstuff.CB:Inthe40s,youdidn’thaveanyofthat.SM:Inthe40’s,youdidn’t…Andyoudidn’tneedit.37:09Youcouldusethese…findtheseorganismsthatwereabsolutely…likeEuglenathatweresodependentonvitaminB12thatyoucouldusethemtomeasurethelevelintheblood.Andtheywereusedinhospitalsforthat.AndHermanhadthewhole…UniversityofMedicineandDentistryforawhilewasdoingassayswithorganismsinsteadofexpensivemachinesbecausetheywerecheap.Buttheydidtakealittlelongerthansomeofthenewmachinery.Sobythetimethenewmachineryshowedup,everybodyshiftedoverinto,youknow,automatedchemicalanalysisofthesethings.DS:Sonow,canyoujustgobackalittlebitandcharacterizethedifferencebetweenthenandnowfortheseassays?SM:Nowtheassaysareallperformedbymachines.DS:OKIgotthat,butwhatdidhedo.SM:Whatdidhedo?Hefoundtheorganismsthatwerenotbacteria;theywereotherorganisms;theywereprotozoa.Andthatwasuniquely….Seymourwasa

protozoologist.Hewasprobablythefirstmodernbiochemicalprotozoologist.Wouldn’tyousay?Hestartedthatwhole…CB:Well,hetransformedthefield…youknow…SM:Buthestartedthatdisciplineoflookingatthebiochemistryofprotozoa,identifyingtheuniqueaspects…Seymourconsideredthatyoucouldunderstand…Inhisownway,Seymourwasreductionist.Seymourbelievedyoucouldunderstandmammaliancellsbyfindingtherightprotozoansystemandstudyingiteasily.CB:Yeah.SM:AndSeymourdevelopedmethodsthatrevolutionizedtheconceptofbiochemistry.Insteadofhavingtomakeupculturemediumsfrom…CB:CellculturesSM:…fromeverytimeyoudidacellculture,Seymourinventedsomethingcalledadrymix.Itwashisinvention,wasn’tit?CB:Yeah.SM:Adrymixwaswhereyouliterallycalculate,youknow,forathousandlitersofmediumtogrowaculture,andyoutakeallthe…youweighoutallthecrystalsofthisstuff,ofallthecomponents,therecouldbe20,therecouldbe40,therecouldbe50componentsinthisthing.Andyouputthemin---thiswasgood—youhaveanyofthosethingswiththeballs?CB:Yeah.SM:OhOK.Youputallthesepowderswithallthesedifferentshapedcrystalsandeverythinginthis…ballmill.That’swhatitis.It'saballmill.It'saporcelain…CB:I’llgetoneandI’llshowittoyou.SM:Itwas…it'saporcelaincrockthatyoucan…youcanfastenthetopandyouputtheseballs,porcelainballs,they’reheavyballs,andyougrindit,yourollitonarollerfordayssometimes.Fordays.Andwhatyouareleftwithisaveryfinepowderthathecalledadrymix.Andwhatthedrymixreallywaswasinstantculturemedium.Andhecreatedthewholeconcept.CB:OKherewego[bringinginaballmill:boxcontainingporcelainballs]SM:Yeah!Hereweare.Thisislivinghistoryhere.ThiswasSeymour’s…CB:Seeyouputallofyourdrypowdersinhere.Thenyougetsomeoftheseballs.Itprettymuchdidn’tmatter.Exceptusuallyyouusedacouplebigones.Hemadea,youknow,adifferent,youknow,group.Andthen,thisisn’ttherightoneforthis,butyougettheidea.Youhadsomethingthatsealedit,alright,andthenyouhadarollermachine.40:42Wherethisthingrolled,andtheballswentaroundanditwas,youknow...Therewouldbetworollersandabeltdrive,and,youknow,itwouldjustrollanditwouldmicronizeallofthematerialsyouhadinthere.DS:Sotheballsarejustsomeinertmaterial.CB:Yeahright.CF:Theideawasjusttocrushupthecrystals.NY:AndtomixitupSM:And,youknow,anditwastrulyrevolutionary.Youcouldn’tdoitwithtissueculturemedium,becausetoomuchofthestufffortissuecultureandforanimalcellsisgookyandyoucan’tmakeaperfectlydrypowder.Butyoucoulddothatwiththis.

Theotherthing,Ithink,thatSeymourinventedthatwashis…wasvolatilepreservative.CB:Yeah.CF:What?SM,CB:volatilepreservativeCB:Whatthiswaswasamixtureoforganicsolventsthatwerenotmixablewithwater,but[object-fallingsound]gaveoffthefumes.Idon’tknowhowthat’sgoingtosoundonthetape.But,yeah,it'snottherightone.[tryingtofitatoponabottlethatdidnotfitit.]SM:That’sOK.CB:Yeah.Butyoucouldkeepyoursolutions,basically,atroomtemperature,andtheywouldn’tgetgrosslycontaminated.SM:Thebrillianceofthevolatilepreservativeconcept…Theabsolutesheerbrillianceofitwasthatitwouldn’tmixwiththesolution,anditwouldevaporateovertime.CB:Andautoclaving.Whenyouautoclavedthemedia,youknow,madeup,youknow,from..andyoumixedvarious…andyouaddedyoursolutionsin.Youknow,onceyouautoclavedit,itwouldbe…itwasvolatile.Soitwouldbedrivenoff.SM:Soyoudidn’thavetohavespecialsterileroomsfilledwithmedia.Youdidn’thavetospend…CB:Thatwasabigdeal.Butthethingthathedidwashedissectedtheneedsoftheindividualorganismandcompoundedthemediasothatitwouldrespondtoasinglevitamin.B12forEuglenaandlactobacilluswasfolicacid,right?Andsothiswasthevalueofhisdefinedmedia.SM:Yeah.Youcould…See…youcouldpackageyourdrymix,sellittoahospitalalongwiththestrainoforganismandyourvolatilepreservativeandthehospitalwouldhaveanicereadysupplyofmediaandquicklybeabletomakeuptheflasksitneededfortubeassaysofblood.CB:Sowhatyouwoulddo…ifyouwanted…you’vegotbloodfromaperson,youknow,spunouttheredcells,tookouttheplasma,precipitatedtheproteinoutofit.AndthenyoucouldaddthisbackintoyourmediawhichwasdevoidofB12andtheEuglenawouldgrowproportionallytotheamountofB12intheserumandtheycouldcalculatethe,youknow,howmanymicrogramspermlofserumyouhad.Itwasreallya….Andyoualsomeasureditinaverybasicmachine,adensitometer,whichreallywasso…suchasimple…SM:Laughablysimple.Evenahighschoolstudentcouldoperateit.Itwouldjustmeasure…itmeasuredtheturbidityofthething.Andthereweren’teven…Whatyoudidwas,youputthetube…theculturetubedirectlyintothemachine…aslotinthemachineandthenyouturnedthisknobuntilthisneedlehitthemiddlehairlineindicator.Andthenyoureadoffwhatwasonthedialthatwastheopticaldensityofthemedium.Andso,youknow,ahighschoolstudentcouldsitthereandjusttakeallthesethingsandwriteout,youknow…Somebodywouldgiveyouaruledsheetofpaperandyouwouldputdownthenumberofthetubesandtherewasagridoftubesandagridofpaperandyoulookedatthething.Andso,youknow,youwerebasicallythecom…theautomaticcomputer.Nowallthesethingsareautomated,ofcourse.

DS:Sopartofhisgeniuswashefiguredouthowtogetuseful,reliableworkoutofthesekids.SM:Itakethatasasortofabackhandedinsult.Butthat’sOK.No,Iwasprettyreliable.No,hetaughtthemthattheycouldcontributetoascientificenterpriseevenattheageof14.AndthatwasSeymour’sgifttoallofus.Thatwewereactual…Wewantedtobescientists.Wecameherewantingtobescientists.Hadwegonetoanylaboratoryinthecountry,theywouldhavelaughedatusandkickedusout.‘Causewedidn’thaveanycredentialsorcoursesornothing.Seymourthrew…WhenIstartedat…whenIwas14,hemademebuytheMethuenmonograph,VitaminB12byE.LesterSmith.AndyouknowwhenIwas14hemademebuytheMethuenmonograph,VitaminB12,andIdidn’tunderstandafreakingwordofit.But..DS:Sothereweremany,manylikeyouwhocame.SM:Yes,onSaturdays,theplacewas..CB:itwasmobbedSM:wasmobbedwithhighschoolstudents.DS:Whatkindofpiplelinedidhehavefromtheschools?Wasitpublicschoolsor…CB:Well,everydayoreveryweektwokidswouldcomefromBronxHighSchoolofScience…”Mymentortoldmetolookyouup”..SoSM:Thatwaskindofastandardpipeline.DS:Isthattheschoolyouattended?SM:No,IwenttoBrooklyn,toAbrahamLincolnHighSchool.That’swhere…AndIwasveryfortunatetomaketheconnection.,becausetherewasnopublicinformationaboutHaskinsLaboratories.Youcouldn’tgoogleHaskinsLaboratories.CB:ButwewereinGreenMedicine.There’sabookoutthatIputinthisedition.ItwascalledGreenMedicine.Ithadtobepublishedinthe50s.SM:No!CB:No?SM:No!Itwaspublishedinthe60s.[GreenMedicine,1964,MargaretKreig?]Yeah.Itwaspublishedwayafter…CB:Ididn’thavemycopy.Iwouldhavebroughtitin.SM:ButitdescribestheHaskinshavingteawithallthehighschoolstudents.AndwhatadayatHaskinswas…CB:Seymour’sinthere.It’sreallyneat.TheotherthingIwasgoingtomentionisthattheotherthingthatSeymourdidishedesignedallhisownglassware.AndthesearecalledErlenmeyerflasks.Andthisisnottheexact,youknow,example.Buttheideaisthere.Whathedidwasdesignaflaskwithaveryflatbottomsoithadalotofsurfacearea.Andifyouputlike5ccsofmediainthisflask,youwouldspreaditout,andyouwouldhaveaverybigareaforinterchangeofoxygenwiththemedium.Andthat’stheotherthingthathedid.Hedesignedtheseflasksand,youknow,wehavehundredsofthem.Idon’tknowwhere…Ican’tfindoneofthem.Ihavethemathome,Idon’tknowwhere.Theonesthatdon’thavethescrewtop,flasks.NY:Theoneswiththecap?Theplasticcap.DonnahasthemCB:Yeah.She’sout.SM:Theyhavethesepolypropyleneplasticcapsthatyoujustputontopofthem.Youdidn’tscrewanythingonthem.

CB:Yeah,youdidn’tscrew..cap.Youjusthadacapthatyouwoulddropon.Soyouwouldautoclavepyrexbakingdisheslikelasagnapans,right?Andyouwouldhavelike25oftheseflasksinalasagnatray.Rememberthat?Yeah.Everybodygotfreelasagnatrayswhenwestoppeddoingtheexperiments.CF:He’sremindingmealittlebitofBFSkinner.Because….I’vereadhisautobiography,andhewasbrilliantintermsofhisabilitytothinkaboutlearninginwaysthatpeoplehadn’tthoughtaboutitbefore,buthewasalsogreatindesigningapparatus.AndreallytheSkinnerboxbecamesomethingthateverybodyusedfordecades.AnditsoundslikeSeymourwassimilar.CB:OhYeah.SM:ButSeymourcould…TheonesadthingaboutSeymouristhat…washishypercriticalpersona.Thathejustcouldnotstand…hecouldnotstandpomp,hecouldnotstandpufferyandhecouldn’tstand…hecouldtakecriticism.Hejuststandrightbackthereandgiveittoyou.NY:SometimeshekindofenjoyeditCB:Ohyeah.SM:Sometimesheenjoyed…heloveditthatanybodywouldeventhinkthathewashisequal.AndIinvitedhim…WhenIwasagraduatestudentatSyracuseUniversity,IgothiminvitedtospeaktothedepartmentofMicrobiologywhereIwasinthemolecularbiologygroup.ButIgothimtospeaktoallthegraduatestudentsandthefaculty.Iwassopleased.Itwaslike1971,andDonLundgrenwasthechairmanofthedepartmentatthetime.Andhepromptly…Hepromptlyproceededtoinsultthefacultyandtoingratiatehimselfwiththegraduatestudents.Andattheendofhistalk,hewouldaskquestionsbasedonhistalkandtosee,youknow,ifpeoplecouldextrapolatefromtheideashewasgiving.Andsoofcourseheaskedonequestion.Ican’trememberwhatthequestionwas,butIcanjustrememberhowthingswent.Andsoheaskedthequestionandthechairmanofthedepartmentraiseshishand.Youknow:“I’mgoingtoshoweverybody.”Soheanswersthequestion,andSeymourgoes:“Wrong!Next.”SoI’mgoing:“ThanksalotSeymour.Ireallyappreciateit”Iknewhewasgoingtodoit.ButitwasjusttohavethehonortohavehimcometoSyracuse,stayatmylittleapartmentwas..Butthat’swhohewas.Ifyouwereoneofhis,helovedyou…Criticizedthehelloutofyou.Buthewouldprotectyou.Andhewould…ifanyonecriticizedyourpaper,youknow,he’dtellyou..he’dtellyouhowtofixit,youknow.Heloveddeflatingegosofscientistswho…andsometimeshewasalttlebittooenthusiasticaboutit.DS:IgetthepictureSM:Andthat’swhere…Ithinkthat’swherehecouldbeen…hecouldhavemadeabiggermarkintheworld.Don’tyouagree?CB:Yeah.Ithinkso.Ohsure!Imeanhewashisownworstenemy.SM:Buthewassuchauniqueman;youknow,we’llnotseehislikeagain.Andmany…FrankCooper,CarylHaskinswerealluniqueintermsoftheirtalentsandthecombinationoftalentsthattheyhad.CB:Buttheideatoputtogetheralabwithouttranscripts,withoutarequirementtoteach.That’swheretheyreallywanted.SM:Seeingtheoriginaltranscripts[PatNye’soralhistory].Iaskaquickquestion:WhofundedtheoriginalHaskinsLaboratories?

CF:Hegotaninheritancefromanaunt,Ithinkitwas.SM,CB:CarylHaskins?CF:CarylHaskinsdid,yeah.Hegot$750,000fromanauntwhowassomehowacompanionofGeorgeEastman,butitwasn’tEastman’smoney,itwasherfamilymoneyandshediedandlefthimmoneyandthat’swhatheusedtofoundthelaboratories.SM:Andthiswasin1930something?CF:1935,Ithink.CB:Sothinkwhat$750,000inthe1930s.SM:That’shuge.DS:TheyfoundedthelabtheyearthatCarylHaskinsgothisPhD,1935.SM:Sowow.That’salotofmoney.SoSeymourhadalwayssaidtomeorinconversationthathehadajob…Youknow,hedidn’thavetoworryabouttenure,hehadajobforlife,hedidn’thavetositonanycommittees,hehadnoobligations,hecoulddowhathewanted.Andthat’sreallywhatwasuniqueaboutthelaboratoryitself.Howdid…Ihadheardthatthe18minutegapintheNixontape.CF:FrankCooperwasonthatSM:FrankCooper!DS:FrankCooper..Hewasamemberofathreemancommitteethat…workedonthat.SM:Irememberthat.ThatwasontheNixontape.CB:Notonlythat.Youknowwhattheydid?Well,thisispreachingtothechoirbut,didn’ttheyperfectlikevoiceanalysis.Likethatifyouwere…theFBIandyouweretapingsomebody,thatyoucouldidentifythevoiceonthephone?Theypioneeredthetechniques?54:22DS:No,theywereactuallycriticalofusingthosetechniques,basically.Becausetheyshowedthatmorewasclaimedforthemthanshouldhavebeen.ThatwasCooper’sstanceonthat.SM:Ah…CB:OK.ButImean…DS:Isn’tthatright,Carol?CF:Idon’tremembertobehonest.Ireallydon’tremember.ButcertainlyisnosomethingthatourversionofHaskinsLaboratoriescontributedto.DS:Butcanwebackupjustaminute.Stuart,youstartedtosayawhilebackthatSeymour’stwobigcontributions…andtheonethatIrememberwas…ismicro…CF:DevelopingmicrobialassaysDS:microbialassays.CF:Butyoudidn’tgettonumber2.SM:Oh,Number2wasthe?Number2wastheuse…Number2wastherevolutionaryconcept,Ithink,thatheespousedthatprotozoacouldbeusedasmodelsformammalianmetabolism,andthereforewecouldlearnaboutdiseaseandnutritionofthehumanbyusingtheappropriateprotozoanmodel.Andthisissomething,that…Cycantellyouaboutthisbecausethisdidnotsitwellwiththeworld.EventhoughSeymourhadverygoodevidencefromthevarioussystemshe

waslookingat,TetrahymenaandCrithidia,Ithinkwerethefirst,youknow.HeusedtocallTetrahymenaahumanoidprotozoan.Remember?CB:Right.CF:Howwouldhe…whatkindofevidencewouldcountasevidencethatyoucoulduse…SM:I’mgoingtodefertotheseguys[CB,NY]becauseI’mnotanutrition…I’mnotaprotozoanguy.CB:Well,he,youknow,hebelievedthatwell,thattheirmetabolismwascomparabletomammaliancells.Soifyouhadantitumoragents,youcoulduseTetrahymenaasascreenandeliminate,youknow,certainclassesofcompoundswhichdidn’twork,becausetheydidnotworkonTetrahymena.Butthatwasn’talwaystrue.Allright.SM:While,hewasespousingthis,whichwasinthe60s?CB:Yeah.SM:JosephBurchenalatSloanKetteringwassettingupthemouseleukemiaassaywhichbecamethe…whichbecamethestandardassayforlookingforcancercells.AndSloanKetteringhadthishugefacilityinRyewheretheymadenewchemicalsfor…Theyhadthishugeorganicchemistrylabwhichwasalreadysetupthereandtheywere…andJoeBurchenalwastherewithhisthousandsofmiceandtheywouldassaythechemicalsinthemiceusingtheleukemiathatwastransplantablefromonemousetoanotherfor[L-pho…??]leukemia.SoyouknowIhappenedtogofromcollegeandHaskinstoSloanKetteringaftermydoctorate.SoIbecameveryfamiliarwiththewholething.Sotheproblemwas…andtheotherthingthatcancerresearchwasbecomingexcruciatinglypolitical.IfyoureadthebrilliantbookbyMukherjee,SiddharthaMukherjee,Ithink,wroteTheemperorofallmaladies,aboutcancer.HegotthePulitzerPrizeforit.It’safabulousbook.IttalksabouthowtheAmericanCancerSocietygotstartedandhowthepersonalitiesofallthepeoplegotinvolved.SooncetheAmericanCancerSocietyandtheJimmyFundandallthesehighlypoliticalcharitableorganizationsandMaryLaskerinparticulargotstartedwithsaying:“Thisiswhatwehavetodotocurecancer”whichistogrowthesemiceandtestthemwithallthesethings,anyalternativeschemewasseenasathreattothesystem.Especiallywhenitwasespousedbysomeonewhowasn’tanMD.And,youknow,thecancerresearchfieldhadalwaysbeenmorepoliticalthanthescientificinmanyways,andithasgonedownmany,many,manywrongroadsinthescientificsensebecauseofthepoliticalpressurethatwasputonit.AndsooneofthethingsthatSeymoursufferedfromwasthescientificmilieuatthetimethatpoopooedanythingthatwasn’tamouseorhumanoratissueculturecellorHeLa.YouknowHeLawasbecoming…thiswasalsothetimethatHeLacellswereputintocultureandHeLa…andeverybodybecameallexcited:“Ohyeah.Cancerhasallbeencultured.Wecanusethat”AndeventuallythingsmovedoutofthemousemodelintocancercellsifnotHeLa.Sowhatyouhavetolookatbiologicallyisthemilieuintowhichthisbrilliantideawasdropped.Itwasdroppedintobasicallyafieldthathadbeenplowedandburnedandsaltedandlimed.AndnoneofSeymour’sideasweregoingtotakerootandgrowinthathostile,hostileenvironment.CF:That’ssadSM:AndCycantellyouthatwhenhe…theyapplied…whatdoyoudowhenyouhaveagreatnewidea?YouapplyforNIHgrants.

1:00:07CB:Yeah.Andthenthefirstthingthat..wellinmycaseitwas,tryingtouseCrithidiawhichisamosquitoparasite.Notahumanparasiteatall.NIH…SM:NeitherareTetrahymenaorCB:Right.ButIcouldn'tgetfunding…myNIHgrants…untilIbegantouseahumanparasitesothatwe…IhadtogotoSeymourintheearly1970safteraseriesofgrantrejectionsfromNIHandsay“SeymourwehavetogetanimalsandwehavetogetanimalsthatsupportastrainofsleepingsicknessofTrypanosoma”that,youknow,isapathogen“andstarttestinganddoingmetabolismofthese,,,oftherealparasites.”SM:ButthegoodsideeffectisthatHaskinsLaboratories,throughCy’sresearch,wasinstrumentalinthediscoveryofacureforsleepingsickness.AndthatwastheothergreatcontributionofHaskinsLaboratories,whichSeymourwasinvolvedwithinCy,whichyoushouldnotforgeteventhoughit’snotmentionedthere.101:18Becausetrulyyouknowthepersonyou’resittingnexttoisoneofthefewpeoplethateverreallydevelopedacureforadisease.AndbecauseCyissuchahumblehumanbeing;IthinkthatCyhadareactionformationtoSeymourandturnedouttobeexcessivelyhumbleasaresult.CF:Isee.CB:Stop.SM:Butyeah.So,I’lltoothishornifhewon’ttoothishorn.Yesyouaresittingnexttoamanwithoutwhomthe….Didyouevertellthestory…themthestoryaboutVaniqua?CB:OhVaniqa.That’sagoodstory.WellIdon’tknow…SM:Wellthat’salright.ItsnotreallyHaskins.Itspost…post…CB:Well,youknow.Justtalkingaboutthemodels…SM:Justtotellyouaboutthemodelsandthemilieuandthecultureoftheworldwelivein.Ithinkit’sawonderfulstoryinthatsenseasbeingtrulyanexample…SoyougoaheadCy.Youtellthestory.CB:Alright.Wantmetotellit?Alright.Soin1980therewasacompoundcalledDFMO.CapitalDFMO.It’s…whichwas…MerrellDowhaddevelopedthisasanantitumoragent.Andtheyhadtestedityouknow…SM:ItattackedthebasicenzymethatcausesthesynthesisofpolyaminewhichunfortunatelyisneededfornormalandcancercellsCB:Sothebottomlineisthatthiswastestedasanantitumoragentanditfailed.ButbecauseofitslinktothispolyaminemetabolismIwasstudyingIgotthecompoundfromMerrellfromaguyIamstillfriendswithatMerrell,andwetestedithereinmiceandwefoundthatitcuredtheinfection.And…OK.Sonow,it's10yearslater,andbecauseithadgonethroughclinicaltrialsasanantitumoragent,youcouldgoaheadandtestitinpeoplewhohadthedisease,becauseweknewitwasnotgoingtokillthem.SM:WhichwasAfricansleepingsicknessCB:Africansleepingsickness,yeah.103:40

Soin1980wepublishedthispaperthatthiscompoundcuresmicewithsleepingsickness.Sowegoto1990…SM:YeahbutduringthistimetheWorldHealthOrganizationhascontactedyouand…CB:Yeahbutright.Wegetgrants,wedothework,wedoallthebiochemistryandstuff.SM:AndthenMerrellDowsfundedthefirstclinicaltrialsinAfrica,right?CB:Right.Yeahbutthethingthat…SM:Don’tforget.That’swhentheycalledittheRessurectionDrugbecauseittookpeoplewhowere…comatoseCB:ComatoseSM:Andmadethemwakeupwithin24hours.SoitwascalledtheResurrectionDrug.Don’tminimizeit.Christ.Youknow.CB:Buttheironyofthis,alright?Wegetto1990.AndWH…Iwasonsomebody’sstudysectionsforWHOandthey…WHOcan’tbuythisstuff,it’stooexpensive,nobodywillmakeit.AndMerrellDowshutsdownthemanufactureofit.Andatthatpoint,youknow,youcouldn'tgetit.Eventhoughitwascured.SM:Meanwhilepeoplearejustdyingofsleepingsickness.[and?]animalsCB:Alrightsowhathappensis…A…What’shernamenow…the…SM:the[??choreographer??]CB:There’sa60MinutesprogramcomesininFebruaryof1990,Ithink?Ihavetolookitup.Butessentiallyit'sthisladywho’sanMD,who’s,youknow,likeamissionary.SheworksinthesouthernSudanwithallthisfightingand,youknow,allofthat.Andsherunsasleepingsicknessclinic.Andshegoesandexplainsthattheonlydrugthatthey…isavailableissomethingthatissolublizedinpropyleneglycol,whichisantifreeze.SM:Whichispoison.CB:andthatblowsuptheveinsofthesepeople.Andtheydon’twanttogetitanditkills5%ofthepeoplethatgetit.Sothebottomlineisthatthereisthiscompoundthat’savailablebutit’scalledDFMO,butit’stooexpensivetomake.Sonodrugcompanywilltakethechanceandmakeit.SoSM:Becauseit’sonlyAfricanswhohaveit.CB:24hourslater,aftertheshow,theheadlineintheTimesisDrugCuresSleepingSicknessbutisNotAvailable.Atthesametime,alright,whathappensis…theirdipiliatoryagentisreleasedonthemarketcalledVaniqa.Vaniqa…SM:Well…Vaniqais…was…thepurposeofVaniqawaspeoplewhogetlaserhairremoval.Getlaserhairremoval,thehairgrowsbackprettyquickly[mosttimes?].Butpeopleweretestingthiscompoundandfoundthatifyouappliedittotheskinwhereyoudidthelaserhairremoval,itwouldslowtheregrowthofhair.AndtheycalleditVaniqa.ExceptVaniqawasDFMO.CB:Itwas20%…Itwas20%DFMO.Sothedealwas…theywouldn’tsynthesizeDFMOfortheAfricansbecausetheycouldn’tgetareturnonit.But,youknow,itwasOKtoproducethisstuffso…asadepiliatoryagent.Sothatwasreally.SothatallcameoutintheTimes.SM:ItcameoutintheTimesandthenitwentbackon60Minutes.Andtheyinterviewedyou!

CB:Me?No.SM.Notheydidn’tinterviewyou.CB:Nobodyinterviewsme.ItwaslikeSeymour.Butreallythatwastheinterestingpart.Andreallykindoffromtheretheytookoff.Anditbegan…Theideathat,youknow,youcouldn’t…youhadtoshareyourresourcesandmakedrugsforThirdWorld.LikewhatGatesisdoingand,youknow,spreadthewealtharound,youknow.SM:Ithink…Ithinkitbecamelaw.CB:I’msorry?SM:Didn’tit…diditbecomelawthatyouhadto…?CB:Yeah.SM:Youhadto…Ortheygave…[MarionMerrellDow]gavethepatentto…CB:Ohtheygave...MarionMerrellDowwasverygood.TheygavethepatenttoWHO.Theytoldthemhowtosynthesizeit.Theyjusthadtofindsomebodytomaketheingredients.Andtheingredientswereexpensive.Youknow,eventhenitcostabout$500agramorsomething.Itwasnotcheap.SM:Wow.Eveninbulk.CB:Yeah.Itwasalot.Notonlythat,theyhadacoronation…afluorinationreactionthatwouldeatthroughthestainlesssteelreactionvessels.TheyhadanexplosioninStrasbourgthatkilledpeople.Coupleofworkers,yes.Productionyeah,productionofit.Sotheyhadacompletely…theyhadaweak,youknow,fermentationtank.Reactiontank.SM:Sothereyouhaveit.SoHaskinsbecameinstrumentalinfindingahairgrowthinhibitor…thatincidentallyhappenedtocuresleepingsickness.CB:Yeah,youknow,butthatwas…SM:Butthat’swasreallygreatexampleofmisguidedprioritiesintheUnitedStates.Aclassicalexample,butwedothat.CB:Yourunningoutoftapetoo?CF:No,Ijustwantedto…ENDOFFIRSTFILEDS:Thedepilatorystuff…Whatdidyoucallitthen?CB:VaniqaSM:Vaniqua…thatwasthebrandnameVaniqua…VaniqaCB:Butitwas20%DFMO.Thatwastheactiveingredient.DS:Yeah,Igotthat,buthowcomeit…thisstuffwouldhave…wouldn’thavebeentooexpensivetobeapractical…CB:Wellthatwasthething!Theywere…Idon’tknowDS:…tobeworthpayingforCB:Osure!Becauseyouhadwesternpeopleandphysicianswritingprescriptionsanddrugstores…andsoforthDS:That’saterrible,terrible…SM:It’sagreatstory.It’sanAmericanstory.CB:Well!SM:Itis,itis.DS:Sowhatisthesituationnow?

CB:SoIwasgoingtosay,whathappensis,initiallytheyuseditalone.Tocure,youmustunderstand.Theyhadtoinfuseit4timesaday,usuallyfor2weeksandyouwouldcureapatientwithsleepingsickness.Butifyou’veeverseensomeoftheseruralclinics,youdon’twanttodoIVfor4timesadayfor2weeks,becausethestupsareexpensiveandallofthat.Sotheywerelookingforawayaroundit.WellwhattheyhavetodayisacombinationofadrugcalledNifurtimoxwhich…andDFMOandtheygiveitincombinationforaweek.Nifurtimoxcanbegivenorallyastablets.Sotheygivethatfor10days.Butthebigthing;istheycuttheadministrationofDFMOinhalf.YoucangiveDFMOtwiceadayforoneweekwiththisNifurtimoxasacombinationandyoucancure…DS:IntabletformCB:Yes.SoNifurtimoxisatablet.TheDFMOstillhastobegivenIV.Butitsonceevery12hoursinsteadof4timesaday.Sotheideaisnowyouhavebasicallyhalf..you’vehalvedthetreatmenttimeandhalvedtheamountofmaterialthatyougivebecauseyou’reusingitincombination.SonowthatisthefrontlinetherapyforDFMO…forsleepingsickness.That’sayouknow.Theotherthingisthatwe’vedonerecently…In2004,Ihadalotofmedicalproblems.AndIdidn’tthinkwasgoingtocomebackfromit.AndNigelcantellyouwhathappened.Iwentfrom200lbsto140lbs,andIhad,youknow,esophagealcancerandIhadL-1vertebracollapseonme.SoIhadayearandahalfinwhichIhadfourorfivesix-hoursurgeriesofdifferentnatures.Butthebottomlineis,in2007agroupcalledDNDI,DrugsforNeglectedDiseasesInitiative…DNDI.Andthat's…Dndi.orgistheirwebsite.Soverysimple.Andtheycameandtheyaskedusifwewouldbewillingtosynthesize,screenaseriesofcompounds.Theywouldpayforit;theyhadmoneyfromGatesandtheywouldpayus.Basicallyitwasagrant.Sofor7,seven,six,sevenyears,rightNige?NY:yeahCB:Wehavebeenscreeningcompoundsand,notthatwe…wemainlyjustscreeneditinouranimals.Butthere’scompoundoutthat'sgoingthroughstage,phase2clinicaltrialsanditisexcellent;itcuresacentralnervoussystemmodelandbottomlineisthatyoucangiveitinlowdoseandshorttermanditwillcure.Andnotonlythat,itwillstayinthebloodstreamofpeopleforquitealongtime.Meaningthatitcanbegivenas…itmaybegivenasaprophylacticinadditiontocuringaclinicalinfection.So..DS:Howmuchdoesitcost?CB:AtthispointwithGatesbehindit,wehavenoideahowmuch.Doyouknowhowmuch?NY:Wellmyimpressionisthatit’snot…it’snotthatexpensiveanditcanbegivenasatabletfor[??]asingledoesforacure.Soallofthattogetherisalotcheaperanditseasiertoadministerandallofthat.CB:Sothatmaybe,Ithink,thecomingthing.So,Idon’tknow.Butweplayedthelion…abigroleinthat.Soweareprobablyattheendofthat…butwe’restillhopefulthatotherthingsand,yeah.DS:Sopartsofthisstoryaretoldinthingsthatyou’vesentus.CB:Yeah,ohyeah.

DS:Isthereanotherthingthattellsthewholestoryofsleepingsicknessand..atHaskins?CB:Idon’t…Isthereanything?WellsomeofthestuffthatIsent…NY:Someofitsinthebookthatwhat’shisnamefromMerrellpublished?CB:PeterMcCann?NY:No,hisdaughterwroteitabout…right?CB:Oh.LetmeseeifIhaveit.SM:Ididn’tknowthat.Ididn’tknowanythingaboutabook.PeterMcCann’sdaughterwroteabook?NY:Thepresidentof,theCEOofMerrell.Whatwashisname?SM:Oh,Idon’tknow.NY:YoualwayssaythatSM:ButPeterwasCy’scontact.NY:Peter’sinthere.SM:YouknowPeterandIwenttothesame…WegotourPhD’sfromthesamementor.SyracuseUniversity.ENDOFSECONDFILESM:He[Seymour]wasgettinghisPhDwithSumner.HewasalsoinstructingNorbertWeinerincyberneticson….CF:Well,hewasoneofthe,Iguess,puffeduppeoplethatheenjoyeddestroyingSM:Idon’tknowifWeinerwaspuffedup.IthinkSeymouractuallytaughthimbiology..somebiology.CF:Isthatright?SM:Yeah.Ithinkhelikedhim.Hespokefondlyofhimactually.ButIamsuretherewereotherpuffeduppeopleintheclassicalYankeeprofessortradition.CF:ButIthought…somaybeI’mwrong.IthoughtthatHutner,Seymour,gotdowntoMITbecausehewasworkingwithCooper,somehow,onCooper’sdissertationthat.SM:Idon’tknow.Mighthavebeen.Oh!Lookatthat.ItstartedwithSerotoninCB:Serotonin.Thisisthestory.Thisfellow,AlSjoersdmawasagreatbiochemist.SM:Oh!That’swhoitwasOK.Iknowwhohewas,yeah.Hewastheheadof,yeahCB:Right,andhewastheheadoftheMerrellDowResearchInstitute,andhewasthereandpioneeredtheresearchintothesecompounds.Andthebottomlineisthatheallowed…whenwegotourdatawithDFMO,heflewtoGeneva.WorkedwiththeWHOtoinitiateclinicaltrialsinAfrica.Andifyoulookup,there’sawholechapteronthisstuff.Iwonder…SM:Youmustbeinthere.CB:Ohyeah,we’reinhere.SM:Well,thereyougo.CB:So.SM:Gotothereferences.CB:Alright,letmesee.Herethisis…Yeah,thisis…CF:Thereyouare.CB:Sothere’salotofthematerialhere.Idon’tknowifthiswasavanitybookorwhat.But..CF:Idon’tthinkso.Doesn’tlooklikeit.

CB:Yeah.Butthisisthebook.StartingwithserotoninbyAnnSjoersdma,andshe’sthedaughterofAlSjoerdsmawhoisaveryfamousbiochemistfromNIH.Andthisistheguy.Hepassedaway,andthereisamemorial…I’mgoingtogoto.It'sinSeptemberorOctober.Anyhow,we’rementioned,theLab,andthere’sawholechapteronDFMO.SoIthinkitsalmostbettertojust…ifyoucangetacopyofthis…CF:Yeah,I’msurewecan.CB:ImeanIcantryandXeroxthis,butit’salot.CF:No,no.IcanlookforitonAmazon.I’msureit'sthere.CB:Soit’sjust…I’msorry.I’llgetoutoftheway.I’mjustgoingtograbalittle…Oh,watchitwatch,watch.Youdroppedthenotesthere.….DS:I’llmakeanoteofthatbookmyself.CF:Yeah,it'scalledStartingwithSerotonin.CB:Good,Nige.Imeanyouknow.Ifyoucangetit.SM:ItisonAmazonCF:Oh,itis.Thankyou.DS:Serotonin.Andtheauthoris…CF:S,j,o,e,r,d,s,m,a,AnnG.CB:S,j,o,e,r,d,s,m,aDS:S,j,o,e,r,d,s,m,aCB:ThatwasgoodNige.Iforgetaboutthat,youknow.WhyshouldIforgetaboutit?Well.Butits’good.FortheLab.NY:That’sright.You’retoomodest.Youneedtorememberthesethings.CB:Yeah,youknow,yououghttotellCharlieGumbaraboutthis.NY:Yeah.Iwonderifheknowsactually.Hemaynot.CB:Youknow?IwonderifPaceisinheretoo?Youknow,justonthe…OrHaskinsLabs,Pace,P-A…No,Paceisnot…HaskinsLabs…[lookinginindexofSjoerdsmabook]DS:SowesentthesequestionstoCy.Idon’tknowifyouhaveseenthem.SM:Idon’tthinkIhaveseenthem.DS:WellalotofthemhaveprobablybeenansweredbyyoualreadybutmaybeIcangothroughsomethatmaybehaven’t.CB:Yes.DS:WhatcanwereconstructaboutSeymour’srelationswithHaskinsandCooperduringthe1930sand1940s.SM:I’mafraidIcan’thelpyouthere.DS:Well,weknowfromthis,thesetapes[NyeOralHistory],Seymour’scommentsandwhatnot,thatintheworktheyweredoingoneffectsofradiationonanimalandplanttissuesonreactionslikephotosynthesisandsoforth.ThesewereintereststhatHaskinsandCooperacquiredwhentheywereworkingattheGeneralElectricresearchlabsinthemiddle30s.AndGE..IgatherthatGEhadamonopolyonproducingX-rayequipmentbothfordiagnosticandtreatmentpurposes,andsotheywantedtoknowabitmoreaboutwhatX-raysdo.Andthat’showX-rays…how,whyradiationresearchgotstartedatGEresearchlabs.AndHaskinswhowasoriginallydoingsortofstraightchemistrywasbroughtintothatfield.SM:AndSeymourendeduphelpinghimwiththat.

DS:Theyneeded…Theyneededa…somebodywith…abiologistthattheydescribedit,whohad…whoknewalotofchemistry.That‘sthewaytheydescribedit.SM:Thatwasperfect.Seymourwasabiologistwhoknewanawfullotofchemistry.DS:TheyfoundSeymouratCornell.SM:WithSumner.CB:Yes.Right.DS:Theyfoundhim…SM:That’swherehewas.DS:Through…Yeah,throughCF:SomeonenamedNabelSM:NobeliCF:N,a,b,e,l?WellPatNyemighthavespelleditwrong.Sodoyouknow..SM:N,a,b,e,l.No,Idon't.OrwasitKnabelCB:Maybe,Knabel,K,n…CF:SomeonewhogotarecommendationfromBarbaraMcClintockandconveyedittoCarylHaskins.That’swhoKnabelorNabelwas.SM:Isn’tthatsomething.Whataconnection.CB:Wow.CF:So,he…hewasastudentwasastudentofMcClintock’satCityCollege,right?Seymourwas,Imean.SM:Yes.CB:Yeah.SM:That’sright.HewasaCityCollegegraduate.CF:AndsomehowthisNabelperson…SM:That’sright.ThatwasnotajobthatBarbaraMcClintockreallywanted,butit’sajobshewasforcedtotake,becauseit’stheonlyoneshecouldtake.CB:Well,shewasat…SM:Rightherbiographyis…CB:SoshetaughtSeymour?SM:Yeah,isn’tthatsomething.CF:Asanundergraduate.CB:Unbelievable.SM:AsanundergraduateatCityCollegeCB:UnbelievableSM:Sooneofthebestmindsofthe20thcenturyinbiochem…ingenetics,youknow.CB:Unbelievable.Reallyunbelievable.DS:Herehesays:“CF:Bernard…DS:“Nabel,”N,a,b,e,l,“gotthethemessagefromBarbaratousaboutyou”That’swhatHaskinssaidonthetape.“Andthat’showweheadedforyou”SotheyfoundhimatCornellandtheysortof…SM:draftedhimDS:Theydraftedhim.TheydraggedhimawayandSM:ActuallyIthinkthepolitewordwouldbe:“recruited”him

CF:AndCooperwasworkingonhisPhDatMITatthetimeandIthinkthat’showSeymourgottobeatMIT.Helpingoutwith,somehowhelpedoutwithCooper’sPhDdissertation.CB:Wait.Wasn’titFrankCooper…hewasstudyingtheeffectsofradiation,no?DS:Yes.Yes.Hehadstartedouttodoadissertationonspectroscopyandhadgotten,somehowthroughHaskinsinfluencepartly.SM:Sureitwasn’tBernardNobel?CB:Oh,itcouldbeSM:YouknowwhoBernardNobelwas?DS:No,b,e,l?SM:N,o,b,e,lHewastheNobeloftheNobelPrize[BOTHHUTNERANDHASKINSPRONOUNCETHENAME“NAY-ble”ontheNyetape]CF:HewastheNobelPrizeguy?Well,that's…9:08SM:Sonofagun.CB:Wow.That’sreallyincredible.Ididnotrealizethatthat’showSeymourknewBarbaraMcClintock.SM:No,sorry.ItwasnotAlfredNobel,itwasBernardNobel.Oh.ItwasAlfredBernhardNobel.ButIdon’tknowwhattheycalledhim.CF:Bernie.SM:Maybeitwashim.DS:Alrightso.TheyweretogetheratMITforsomemonthsatleastinthemiddle‘30s.AndthenSeymourwentback…I’mjusttryingtotracetheeventsasIunderstandthem.SeymourwentbacktoCornelltofinishhisPhD…inplantphysiology?SM:Youhavetorealizethingsweresoprimitiveatthattime.Ina…really.CF:Yeah.DS:Andthenit’sunclearsortofwhathappens.Whetherhehadaposition,atemporarlypositionatCornell.CF:HeworkedattheVetschool,wasit?CB:Yeah,but…DS:Eventuallyhewasinvolvedinthe…CB:HewenttoAlbany.Hewent…CF:Yeah,yup.SomeHealthDepartment,StateHealthDepartmentCB:Right.StateHealthDepartmentinAlbanyCF:ButthatwasaftertheVetschoolDS:ButthatwasaftertheVetschool.FirsttherewastheVetschool.CB:Heworkedwithtrichomonads,Heworkedwithtrichimonadsat..Whichisreally,youknow…Heactuallydevelopedamethodthathetaughtfarmersofhowtosampletheanimals,thecows,fortrichomoniasis.SM:Right.yeahCB:Thisislike…Imean…thisisfascinating!SM:Becauseof…becauseofhiseclecticeducation.Justthink.Hewentthroughchemistry,veterinarymedicine.CB:Didveterinarypathology.SM:Didveterinarypathology,protozoology,youknow.

CF:HewassomehowinvolvedintheBotanyDepartmentatCornellaswell.SM:Yes.DS:Whenhewasagraduatestudent,hemadeadiscoverythathereferstohere[intheNyerecordings].Hesays:“Whentheytrackedmedowntothatlab,IhadahomemadefractionatingcolumnandIsaid:thisgreenalgaeEuglenaneedssomethingonlyfoundinanimalmaterials.ButIcan’ttalktoanybodyaboutit.”SM:Thatwas[GrantNeil??],right,theWinogradskycolumnguy?…Yeah,theWinogradskycolumn.Thatwasoneofthefirstthingsthatfractionateddyesandmaterial,anditwasveryoldandveryfewpeopleusedit.Itwasasilicacolumn,wasn’tit?CB:MyunderstandingofaWinogradskycolumnisyoutooka…thesludgethatyoufindinthebottomofananaerobicenvironment,theswampandyoupackitintoa500mlgraduate,andyoushinealightononesideofitandyougetalayerofdifferentcoloredphotosyntheticbacteria.Soyougetthepurple,green,yellow…allthe…Right?Yougetalldifferent…SM:That’sright.That’swastheWinogradskycolumn.CB:That'stheWinogradskycolumn.NY:That’stheoppositeof[…??]CB:Mysonhasone.JimmyhasoneathometherSM:Yeah.It’sanechosystem.It’sbasicallyaperpetuatingechosystem.Butitisafascinating…CF:SoIthoughtthe…whathewastalkingaboutwasadiscoverythathecouldn’tpublish,thatEuglenaneededsomethingfoundonlyinanimalmaterials.Hecouldn’tgetitpublished.HehadtogetitpublishedinaGermanjournal,becausenobodywouldbelievethatplantsconsumedanimal..SM:Yes,peoplewouldn’tbelievethat…hefoundaliverextractCF:AliverextractSM:ThatSeymourwasabletomeettheEuglenarequirementwithaliverextract.AndliverisagreatsourceofvitaminB12.Butnobodyknewatthetimethattheliverwas…whattheliverwasdoinghere.AndasSeymoursaid,therewasaverybuttoneddown…Ibelieve…Idon'tknow…ButSeymour’s…Imeanit’stoobadthatthegreatpeoplewho…thepeoplewhocouldarticulatethehistoryofthattimearedead,they’realldead.Everyoneofthem.CF:Yeah.We’rekickingourselvesfornotstartingwhentheseguyswerealive.SM:It’stoobad,becauseHermanjustdiedlastyear,thislastwinter.Buthewasdemented.So,Idon’tknowhowlonghehadAlzheimers.But…CF:Oh,there…Speakingofpeoplewhoaren’tavailable,youmightask…SM:HaveyoutalkedtoReedHutner?CF:No.That’shisson,right?SM:Yeah.Whydon’tyoutalktoReed?CF:That’sagoodidea.SM:NotthatReedwasthatclosewiththisfather,but...DS:Cysaidthathehadcalledhimtoask…andhewasn’tabletocontributeanythingtothequestionthatIwasaskingabouthisfather’sworkinthe‘30sand‘40s.CF:Hewasthesonofhisfirstwife,isthatright?

SM:Yes,Reinaandhehadahorribleupbringing.Seymourwasnot…asIunderstood.Hemadethepoorkideverynightthesamedinner,youknow.Charredhamburgerandabakedpotatoyouknow;friedhamburgerandabakedpotato,orsomethinglikethat.CF:Hewasn’toneofthosehighschoolstudentswhocametothelab?SM:Seymour,Seymourprobablyhad…youknow,ifonewereto..ifoneweretotakeSeymourandtrytoidentifywhatkindofapersonalityhewasbytoday’sdefinitions,onewouldprobablysayhehadatouchofAspberger’s,becausehedidn’tcareaboutotherpeople’semotionsandhewasterribleatreadingotherpeople’semotions.Wouldn’tyousay,Nigel?NY:Ohyeah.That’sforsure.SM:Yeah,So,so..hewasalwaysconvincedintellingyouofhisown…Althoughhewasaf…Whatyoulearnedofhisaffectionforyouonlyperipherally.Youknowtheonlythingyouusuallyheardfromhimwashe’dgiveyoucriticism.Buthewasalwaysveryconvincedandvolubleabouthisownwork.So,that’saveryAspbergian…andverypreoccupiedwiththingsratherthanpeople.ButI’veneverseensomebodywhowassogoodinthearts,theliteraryarts.Thatkindofblows…Iwastrying[??…]thatSeymour’spersonality…Youknow,becausetohearReedandHermanandSilviaBakertalkaboutReed’supbringingafterReinadied.Itwashorrible.Right,Imean,Seymourcookedthesame…CB:Well,HermanBakerreallytookcareofReed.SM:Because..Herman..CB:Because,well,Margaritawaschairmanofthedepartmentthereatmedical16:53SM:Yes,buttheremusthavebeenaperiodoftimebetweenReina’sdeathandwhenSeymourmetandmarriedMargarita.Wasthere?CB:Therewas.Notthatlong.SM:BecauseReedbasically…HermanusedtosaythatSeymourusedtomakeaburnthamburgereverynightandfeedthattoReed.CB:Orahotdog.SM:Orahotdog.CB:Wellthatwasdinner.Butthat’strue.That’strue.SM:Soyouknow…AndIwassayingmaybeSeymourwouldbedefinedbytoday’spersonalitytermsassomewhatAspergian.Whatdoyouthink?DS:WhatlineofworkisReedin?SM:He’sahistoryprofessor.CB:Well,yes.He’sahistorymajor.SM:Hewasahistorymajor.CB:Yes.Hewasverybright.Imean,asyoumightthink.SM:IthoughthegotaPhDinhistory.AndhewasaprofessorCB:No.NY:Isheanarchivistorsomething?CB:Yeah,moreofanarchivist.DS:SorryIdidn’thearCF:Archivist

CB:Archivist,yeah.Hedoesalotofworknow…Hedoesretirement…He’sretired.Hedoesalotofworkwith…ohcomeon…withHMOsand…Andhedoesvolunteerwork,butheknowshiswork.Imean,maybehedidsocialwork,I’mnot…It’sareallygoodquestion,but,yousayanarchivistthenyougotareasonforit,so.CF:ButheneverworkedatHaskinsLaboratoriesCB:Oh,no,no,no.He’stotallyanti-CF:AntiscienceCB:Right,yeahDS:Wellthat’sacommonpattern,Ithink,withkids.Theydon’tidentifywiththeparent’sCB:Well,Reinadiedin1955,andIhavethat…SeymourmarriedMargaritain1956SM:Wow.Thatwasquick.CB:SeeIhavethisonpage126ofthetranscriptthere.Butyou’regoingtohavethis[Reina’sobituary?].Sothat’swhatIgot.BecauseDonnaprintedoutReina’syoukmowobituary.Igavethat…Youhavethatsomewhere…theobituary.Idon’tknowwhereitis…there.I’llcopyallofthis.DS:Well,SeymourcametoHaskinsLabs…Hewas…hadbeenworkingwithHaskinsandCooperinthemiddle‘30s,butthenhewasdoingotherthings,forafewyearstheVetschool,theNewYorkStateDepartmentofHealth.AndhecamebacktoworkwithHaskinsandCooperduringWorldWarII.Theyseemedtosayeither’43or’44.Andsowewerecuriousaboutwhathewasdoingwhenhecameback.HesaysthatbeganasPaulZahl’sassistant.AndthenCooperremarksthattheyhadbeendoingsomeworkontraumaticshock,CB:Yeah.DS:andradiationfortumors,CB.Right.DS:andgram-negativetoxins.Idon’tknowwhatthatrefers…CB:gram-negativebacterialtoxins20:40DS:Whatdoesthephrase“gram-negative”mean?CB:They’regram-negativebacteriaNY:It’sastaininventedby…firstusedbyGram[HansChristianGram]…whichseparatesthetwomainclassesofbacteriaintogrampositiveorgramnegativeandit’sbasedupona[polycycloid?]inthecellwall.Theabsenceorpresenceofit.DS:SoZahlisprettymuchamysterytome.IknowthathewentofftoSouthAmericaandbecameanexplorerorsorts.CB:Well,yeah,butit’sinteresting.SM:AndhewroteThelostworld?CB:Well,yeah.That’sright.HewasapioneerincolorphotographyandhepublishedalotofstuffintheNationalGeographic.DS:Right,yeah.IknewthatCB:Andearlyon,I…infactIwasoveratmyson’shouseandIsawthisbookonfishesofNorthAmericaanditwasbyZahl,PaulZahl.Thesameguy.DS:Theanimal“fisher”?CB:NofishesofNorth…DS:Ohfishes,Ithoughtyousaidfishers,OK.I’msorry.

CB:No.FishesofNorthAmerica.DS:OKCB:Andhe’sgotsaltwater,andfreshwaterfish.DS:Yeah.OK.Ididn’thearyou.CB:Andit’sPaulZahl.AndIrememberSeymourtalkingabouthimasanexplorer.And,youknow,CarylHaskinswentto…DS:Yeah.HewroteabookontheAmazontoo.CB:Yeah.Andtheants.That’sthething.SoheidentifiedallthesedifferentantspeciesintheAmazonandelsewheretoo.It’sreallyamazing.I…DS:ButPaulZahl’slaboratoryphase.Wedon’tknowmuchaboutthat.CB:Idon’tknow.I…Doyouknowwhat?Itwouldbe…probablyhewasworkingwithtumors,wasn’the?Whowas…?DS:Youknowwhat,that’smentionedinthe…onthetape.SM:Wasitwithfish?CB:No.SM:No?CB:Noitwasmice.SM:BALB/cmiceormammarytumors?CB:Idon’tknow.SM:Thatringsabellinmyhead,mammarytumors.CB:Youknow…rememberAndyNowak?SM:Yeah.CB:Sohewasworkingwithsomeprettynastystuff.SM:Whereweretheydoingthat?CB:Remembertheincubatorroom?SM:Yeah.CB:Inthefront?SM:Here.CB:Thatwasananimalroom.No,nothere.SM:OhOK.CB:In43rdstreet.Thatwasananimalroom.SM:That’sright.GodCB:Thisislike…youknow…Together,we..youwecanpiece….Weneversawanimalsinit,butthat’swhatitwasusedat.Thisisonthe3rdfloorinfrontof43rdSt.Asyoucomeofftheelevatoryouwouldmakealeftturn…SM:ButHaskinswasonthefourthfloor.CB:Umm.Thefourth..yesthefourthfloorSM:Seymour’spartwasonthefourthfloor.CB:Three,fourandfive.SM:LuigiwasonthethirdaswasCooper.CB:Right,wasonthethird,butwewereonthefourthfloor.Andifyoumadealeftasyouwentoutoftheelevator…SM:Irememberthatbecauseoccasionallyamousewouldescape.Ohyeah.Irememberthat.CB:Wellyouwerethere…seeIactuallydon’trememberthattheyhadanimals.

SM:Yeah.IrememberoccasionallyamousewouldescapewhenIwastherefrom’61-’6[5?]Beforetheymovedherein’70.CB:Well,IthinkthatPaulZahlwas…SM:Yes.So…God.CB:Howaboutthat?SoIthinkthatPaulZahlwasinvolvedinthat.Althoughwhatexactlyitwas,I’mnotsure.ButIknowthatSeymoursaidthat…whenIwouldaskwho’s…Hewouldsay:Oh,he’sanexplorer,he’snowinSouthAmerica,youknow,heworksforNationalGeographic.Sohedidalotofthat.Yeah.Butwhatexactlyhedid,I’mnot…Idon'tknow.MaybeSeymourmentionedit,butIdon’trememberwhathedid.Isn’tthatterrible?We…there’sthischunkofhishistorythatwe…youknow.CF:Didhe[Seymour]haveanypapers?AsadthingaboutCarylHaskinsandFrankCooperisthattherewerelotsoftheirpapersatCarylHaskins’houseinWestport,andtheywerejustapparentlydisposedofonhisdeath,becausehedidn’thaveanykidsand…SM:Howsad.CB:Really,yeah?CF:Yeah.HowaboutSeymour?Werethere…aretherecorrespondenceorpapersoranythinglikethat?CB:Yeah.Wehave…well,wehavepapers.InfactIhadonethatIgavetoReed.Anditsays:”ToReina,Seymour”SoIsentthat,theoriginal…ButthatwastheonlytimeIeversaw…SM:Where…wherewerehis…Didheeverkeep…Didhekeephiscorrepondenceinthe…?Iknowhefiledeverythingaway.Youknow,hehad5,000notebooks,and..CB:Well,youknowwhat…Alrightyouknowwhathappened?Thisguyfromthe…protozoologist,Nige,theguyfromUniversityofMassachusetts?NY:Yeah.MikeDolan?CB:Yes,right.TheyarchivedSeymour’scorrespondenceintheUniversityofMassachusettslibrary.Theycametousandasked,whenhepassedaway,iftheycanhavehiscorrespondencetoarchiveit.AndIsaid,we’renotgoingtogetthisofferagain,so,right?CF:Whatwashisnameagain?Mike…NY:MichaelDolan,D,O,L,A,NCB:RightNY:Andthat’sbecauseSeymour…Washethe…oratleastoneofthefoundersoftheCB:HewasoneofthefoundersNY:OftheSocietyofProtozoologistsCB:Protozoologists,1953.26:50NY:WhichisnowtheInternationalSocietyofProtozoology.CB:Right.Right.CF:AndthiswouldbeUMassAmherst?CB:Yes.NY:Yes.AndIhaveDolan’saddress.[DepartmentofGeologicalSciences,UMass,Amherst,01003]CF:Great.NY:[…?]

DS:There’ssomethingfrommylistifIcaninterjectitthatI…afascinatingcommentthatSeymourmakesonpage123[Nye,transcript];hesays:“Theissuenowisdidweordidwenotcomefromaphotosyntheticancestor?”AndI…”ifwedid,howmuchdidwecarryoverordidwebypassthatandgodirectlyfromthehalophilesinawaythatchlorophylcomespartlyfromheme”…Ican’t…SM:Somebodyknowstheanswertothatquestionbecause…fromsequencingmitochondrialDNAandchloroplastDNACB:Right.Andtheycantell.RightSM:Becausemitochondriaare…wereoriginallychloroplasts.So…orbacteria.So..CF:Sothatanswerisno.SM:Idon’tknow.Butsomebodyknowstheanswer,because…andI’msuresomewherethere’sadatabaseaccessibletopeoplewhoknowhowtodoitandtoreadthesequencesthatcouldtellthemexactlywhattheancestryis.Becausenowadaysitsdoneallbycomputerdatabasesandalgorithmsand…CB:Molecular…ohwow,alrightSM:Youdon’treallyneedto…NY:That’sMike…CF:Wow.Thankyousomuch[NYprovidesMikeDolan’saddress]DS:So,heendsthislittle….passagewith:Maybethetwoofyoucouldjustreadthis:Thosefourlines(p,.123,samepassageasquotedabove],becauseit’shardto…CF:GetthevocabularyDS:Yeah.GetthevocabularySM:Here.Thisone.Thisone?NY:At“Seymour:”?[intheNyeTranscript]DS:Yes.CB:Well,that’swhatwejust…SM:Whatthey’rebasicallysayingisthefactthatchlorophyllcomespartlyfromheme.That’sareal…It’ssospooky,Cy.Ican’ttellyouhowspookyitisforme.InvitaminB12…whenIstartedworkingwithSeymourin1961,itwaswith…partlywiththeEuglenaandlookingatafactorofvitaminB12,whichwasleftaftermetabolism,andlookingatotherorg…otherorganismsthatgrewinresponsetothisparticularfactor.AndvitaminB12,thenucleusofit,issomethingcalledtheporphyrinstructure,whichisacagethatholdsametalinsideofit.Andthatcagedporphyrinstructureiscommontomanyimportantorganicmoleculesinbothplantsandanimals.Inplants,it’simpor..thecageholdsiron,whichischlorophyll.InvitaminB…CB:Magnesium,doesn’tit?SM:Andmagnesium.CB:Magnesiumforchlorophyll.And..SM:Andironforheme.I’msorry.You’reright.Ironforheme.Shoot.Stupidofme.Sorryforthat.Ishouldknowthat.CB:Youknowabout[…?]SM:Idoknowthat.[Itookayear…??].SM:Sothisporphyrinnucleusisthesamecageineverylittlemolecule.Inplants,itholdsmagnesium,inanimals,itholdsiron.InvitaminB12,itholdscobalt.OK?Butit’sallaporphyrincageatthecenterofthesethings.And,ofcourse,inhumansthe

ironintheporphyriniscalledhemeandit’sinhemoglobinthatisthecenterof[living?].Soattheverybasicmolecularlevelofenergytransfer,theonlydifferencebetweentheplantandtheanimalinthemitochondrialcytochromeswhichareheme-containingproteinsistheironvsthemagnesiuminthechloroplasts.OK.Therearelotsofotherchemicalsthataredifferent,but…themetabolismishugelydifferent…buttheselittleporphyrinmolecules,youknown,thesecomplexlittleringcages,calledchelation,thechelateholdsthesemetalsinasolubleusableformbyanorganism.That’swhatSeymouristalkingabouthere.Chlorophyllcomespartlyfromheme.That’sthecageoftheporphyrin.In1960-something,Seymourwroteabookabout…achapterinabook…andithadsomethingabouttheringsinthe…theporphyrinsinheme.Andthesamethoughtwasinthatchapter.Andheinscribedittome,youknow:ToStuartwhowillbecrackingthose…whosoonbecrackingthoseringsforhimself.Well,rightnow,attheageofsss…48totheageof68,Ihavebeenworkingwiththehemenucleusprecursor,and…withsomethingcalledphotodynamictherapy,whichcreates,notthehememolecule,buttheporphyrinwithouttheiron,whichiscalledprotoporphyrin,thelaststageintheproductionofheme.Youthenaddirontoit,itbecomesheme.Butprotoporphyrinwhenyouhititwithlight,itabsorbstheenergy,andcreatesastateinwhichyoucanpasstheenergyontooxygenandkillcells.Andthat’scalledphotodynamictherapy.SoIhavebeencrackingtheringsoftheporphyrinmolecule…CF:Justasyouwerepredictedtodo.SM:…since…attheageof48,andSeymourpredictedit.Soisthatspooky?Doesthatgiveyoualittlechillgoupanddownyourspine?CB:Yeah.Wellyouknow….[…?]youcouldjustgoaheadanddothat,youknow?….I’llberightback.Iwantedtogetsomething.SM:Soanyway,butthat’sreally…thesecretoflife,youknow,isinthese…they’reverysimilarmoleculesatthenucleus,attheheartoftheenergytransfer,whetheryou’retransferringoxygenasinhemoglobin,oryou’retransferringotherthingsinchlorophyll.Thereyou’redoingtheoppositedirection.You’regoinginto…you’retakingincarbondioxideandusingenergyfromchlorophylltocreatesugar.So..Butagain,allthesecagedmoleculesarethecentralprocessofourenergysystems.AndIthinkthat’swhatSeymouristalkingaboutwhenhetalksabout:didwecomefromaphotosyntheticancestorandswitchfrommagnesiumtoironandthenbuildupthismolecule.AndI’mnotenoughofanevolutionarybiochemist.Somewherethereexistsapersonwhocanreallyanswerthatquestion,butnotme.34:16DS:Inthiscontext,thetermchellation…SM:chelation[key-lation]DS:chelation?SM:Chelationisthebind…thebond…noncovalentbond…Ah,it’sbeenalongtimeguys.I’mnotabiochemist.Idon’tusemybiochemistryverymuch.DS:Ofametal,right?SM:Chelationis…isthe..isthebindingofametaltoanorganicmoleculeinsuchawaythatitbecomessoluble,and...CB:Youcanreplaceitwithmetalsofdifferentproperties,right?NY:Yeah.

CB:YouknowyouhaveaEDTA…SM:Theactofchelation:Forexample,ifyoudevelopedanironoverdosebytakingtoomanyironpills,you'dbegivenamolecule,calledEDTA,whichisachelater,which…thejobofwhichwouldbetograbtheseironmoleculesandtakeitoutofyourbody.Sothat’swhatchelating…It'scalledchelationtherapy,actually.CB:Yeah.SM:Andthereisaformofchelationtherapythatisakindofquackerythatisadvertised[as?]cancertherapy,butit'snotreallychelationtherapy.Whentheytrytogetplutoniumoutofaperson,theytrytousechelation.CB:Ohyeah.DS:Ormercury?Isitthatalso…SM:Mercurydoesn’t…youthinktheychelatemercury?CB:Wellitdependsonwhatorder…SM:Yeah,you’reright.CB:whoreplaceswhat.SM:You’reright.Youhavetosendinamoleculethat…whereyoucanreplacethatatomwiththeotheratom.CB:Sosodium[…?]EDTA.SotheyreplacethesodiuminEDTAmaybewithsomething?No?Idon’tknow.NY:Yeah.Idon’tthinkyoucandisplace…mercurywon’tdisplacesodium.CB:Youcan’tdisplace,no?DS:IhavetwomorequestionshereI’dliketosortofraise.CB:OKDS:WasHutnerresponsibleforbringingProvasolitotheLab?CB:YesDS:Howlongdidtheycollaborateandwhendidtheyformseparateresearchgroups?CB:Welltheystartedabout1946,andthestory,let’ssee,isthatProvasoliwenttoAndreLwoffand…DS:ThatwasinParis,right?CB:Yeah.Andsothat’swhatIread.Andthen…SoLwoffrecommendedSeymour,becausehehadworkedwithSeymour.Andthat’s…andProvasoliactuallycametotheLabbecauseofAndreLwoff.AndhowhegottotheLab,youreadthatthatDS:YeahCB:…Seymourcalledhimthe..WarBrideDS:WarBrideCB:Didyou..Idon’tknow…Whathappenedwashiswife,RoseProvasoli,shewasanartist.ShewasworkinginParisandIguessthat’showhemether.But,theyfellinlove,butthingsbeingwhattheywere,hehadtobeclassifiedasaNazi,becausehewasininMussolini’sItaly.Sotheyhadto..DS:Hewasamemberoftheforcestoo.CB:Yes,hewas.Theywereforcedintoit.Youknow,whatever.Idon’tknow…37:45DS:Everybodyhadtobe[ifhewasascientist…?]CB:Yeah…Itwasn’tanypoliticalpersuasionthathewantedI’msure.ButwhathappenedisareverseoftheWarBridethingwhereProvasoliandRosegotmarried.

AndtheyhadsomesortofspecialactofCongress.Idon’tknow;Iguessitwascommoninthosedayswheretheytackedthis..that…youknow,youhadsomeactofCongress,butthat…theendingofitwouldbeanaddendumthatLuigiProvasoliisnowanAmer…consideredaUScitizen.Bec…ButthethingwasthatRosewastheAmericancitizenandProvasoli…DS:WellRoseisnolongeralive,isshe?CB:Ohno.Shepassedaway…I’mnotsurehow...Idon’tknowthenumbers.AfterLuigidied.Hediedofprostatecancer,unfortunately.Haditforalongtime.DS:ButthatalsopromptsmetoaskaboutIrmaPintner.CB:Idon’tknow.SM:No,IneverknewIrma.CB:Hm?SM:IneverknewIrma.CB:OhIknewIrma.ShewasProvasoli’stechnician.Andshetookcare…hehadthislikethiswholecollectionof2000algalstrains,andshetookcareofallofthis.WhentheymovedtoNewHaven,shewentwithhim.DS:ShemovedtoNewHaven.CB:Yeah.Andthat’s,Ithinkthatwastheonlyperson...becauseIrememberIaskedAliceDadourianhowIrmawas,andshesaid:“Well,she’soldandshe’sstillhere”and..39:17DS:Alicewillknow.Willprobably,yeah.CB:Yeah.Youknowwhat?Shewillknow,AliceDadourian.Yes.Shewassortof…what?CarylHaskins’secretary?I’mnotsure.CF:Shewaskindofofficemanagereventually.Yeah.DS:IhaveonemorethingherethatIwouldliketo…Andthisismoreofarequestthanaquestion.WereallywanttocompilealistoftheHaskinsbioresearchersbeforethePaceera.Andweneedyourhelpwiththat.CB:Alright.SM:Whenyousayresearchers,wouldtheybelikeArtZahalsky,andpeoplelikethat?CB:HermanBaker?DS:Yeah.Peoplewhocontributedtothe…CB:Well,Imean,youknow,wehaveStuart,DavyKaback,allthepeoplethatworkedunderSeymour.Idon’tknow…SM:Oh!Iknowhowyoucantellwhothosepeoplewere:theChristmascards.CB:Yes,yougo…Yes,butalso,rememberSeymour’sbirthdayparty?Wehadan80thbirthdayparty.SM:Andwhathappened?CB:Josiehasafile,alistofallofthepeoplewhocame.Wehadaprettybigshindigforhimforhis80thbirthday.SM:Whatyearwasthat?CB:Uh,1911.So‘82SM:‘91CB:’91,sorry.DS:We’rejust22yearstoolate.

CB:Well,weputittogether.Youknow.Here.Anditwas…SM:Oh,Irememberthat.CB:Sureyoudo.SM:Thatwasfun.Yeah.thatwasfunCB:Wehad[KattyKitakaro??]wasthere,CarloTamburro,IthinkMelBelsky.Allthesepeoplewere...SM:Peoplecamefromallover.Itwasfun.CB:Thatwassome…PeterMcCannwasthere.Recommendedthewine.SM:Yes,Yes!Yes,yes.That’sright.Yes.CB:Sowecangetthatlist.DS:SoSeymourwasactiveinthelabuntilaboutwhen?CB:I’mguessingabout’98,SM:Idon'tknow.CB:RightNige?Becausetherewasapointthereatwhichweknewhehadtoretire.Itwastough.Buthewascomingin..HiDonna.Donna!Donna!Donna,couldyoudoafavor?ThisisDonna.Donnahasfourteen,fifteenyearsworkedwithus,butwithSeymourashisseniortechnicianandallofthatforalong…Donna:[..?]No,about10years,lessthan10years.No,yeah…’92…Abouteightyears.Itwas2000,[1999weconverted?]theroom,thegoodroom.CB:Right,right.ThisroomwasSeymour’soffice.Donna:[…?]majorevent,that’swhenIgotmarried.So…CB:Alright.Alright,butshedidamarvelousjobincontainingSeymour.Seriously.Doyouhaveanyofthese,the10mlflasks??Ijustwantedtoshowthem.Dowehaveanyoftheminatray,orin…?NY:Yeah,Wedo,wekeptmostofthose.Donna:Yeah,wedo.They’reupinthetopofthebrowncabinet.Yeah,soifIget…Icanget[…?]CB:Don’t..NY:Don’tbreakanything.CB:Yeah,don’t…Ijustwantedtoshowyouwhatwe’retalkingaboutthewaywedidtheseexperiments.SM:Great.Therewego.CB:Smallversionofthisthing.Shedidalot.DonnadidalotwithSeymourandshereallycaredforhimandthatwasreallynice.Gladshe…Yeahwecandothat.AndIhavetowriteanotetomyselftogetthatlist.