MEETING STATUS: PUBLIC

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY SESSION: 1/62Motion No: 19 & 24

PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND Year: 2004

VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF HOUSE COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -COMMITTEE: STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

Thursday, March 4, 2004

SUBJECT(S) BEFORE THE COMMITTEE:

Bill No. 28 - An Act to Amend the Holland College Act and Motion No. 24 re Retail Sale of Tobacco Products

NOTE:This Transcription has NOT been edited nor subsequently comparedwith the original tape. It is intended to provide an indication of Committee discussion only and is NOT certified by the Legislative Assemblyto be a true copy of the discussion.

COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: Wayne Collins, Chair

Dr. David McKennaHon. Elmer MacFadyenAndy Mooney replacing Hon. Kevin MacAdamJim Bagnall replacing Wilbur MacDonaldHon. Robert GhizCarolyn Bertram

ABSENT: Beth MacKenzie

STAFF: Marian Johnston, Committee Clerk

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STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENTThursday, March 4, 2004

7:00 p.m.

Part I - John CurtisPart II - PEI Pharmaceutical Association: Fred MartinPart III - Neil CollishawPart IV - Pat MurphyPart V - SWITCH: Melissa McCabe, Leslie YoungPart VI - Canadian Cancer Society: Ewen Clark, Dawn BinnsPart VII - PEI Lung Association: Dr. Margaret Munro, Vicki Bryanton

Tape No. 1

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): My name isWayne Collins and it is my privilege to chair theSocial Development Committee of the PrinceEdward Island Legislature and on behalf of allcommittee members here tonight, I want to sayhow good it is to be here in Summerside, to beable to take this committee on the road to hearviews of people in this end of the Island on thevery important issue of the retail sales of tobacco.Do we have any other letters or formalities weneed to just mention this evening. WilburMacDonald could not be in attendance thisevening and in his stead tonight is MLA JimBagnall. Minister Kevin MacAdam is unable to behere and in his stead is MLA Andy Mooney.

So welcome all members and all members of thegeneral public and presenters here this evening.We have, I believe, one, two, three, four, five, six,seven individual presentations this evening and Iwill try to allow as much time as possible thisevening so everyone can be fairly heard. I would,first of all, though after calling to order thismeeting, ask for a motion on the approval of theagenda. So moved? All those in favour, say aye.

Members: Aye.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Contrary, nay?And the agenda is approved. So moving on to ourpresenters this evening, the first person on our listis Mr. John Curtis and Mr. Curtis is a private citizenof this area and Mr. Curtis is going to present ontwo issues and Mr. Curtis was unable to be with usin Charlottetown when we were holding hearingson the amendment to the Holland College Act andfor those of you who were unfamiliar with that, thatis an amendment that would, if recommended bythis committee and approved by the House, allowHolland College to grant applied degrees, and right

now, they’re not looking at granting applieddegrees in a whole raft of areas or disciplines, buton a very small ‘stake in the ground basis’, if youwill, just to get their foot in the door on this issue.So with that said, I will allow you, Mr. Curtis, a fewminutes to discuss your views on that issue andthen we can move on to your views about tobaccosales.

Part I - John Curtis

John Curtis: Okay, applied degrees, first of all,my name is John Curtis. I don’t support theAtlantic Police Academy being in Prince EdwardIsland. What happened was, there was aSummerside police officer and he was attacked bytwo Doberman pinchers and so the judge let himoff on a charge of assault with a deadly weapon.So I contacted the Atlantic Police Academy to findout why and what happened was, the AtlanticPolice Academy contacted Summerside police andaccused me of impersonating a police officer. Sowhat I did was I contacted the office of thePresident of Holland College; I contacted himtwice. They’re supposed to have like an ISO thingso that their standards. . .

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): InternationalStandard, I believe, yeah.

John Curtis: Yeah, I worked in anothercompany with that ISO and that’s not worth thepaper it’s written on. I can you tell that right now.You can put out a very poor product and still meetISO standards.

The Supreme Court of Canada in (Indistinct)indicated that they should look to see if there wasan isolated area of judgement or pattern. Thepattern would be two or more violations of the

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charter. If people in the system who want to teachor seek accreditation for it, they have to haveintegrity. And given my experience with theAtlantic Police Academy, I wouldn’t give them thataccreditation.

I’m going to say this, okay, you look at Prince ofWales College years ago, they wanted to affiliatewith McGill University. Okay, and then theywouldn’t because a lot of the ones coming out ofPrince of Wales College were top notch and sothey would of been able to affiliate and would havegot their degrees from McGill. That was blownaway and that was back in 1907.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): If I may justintervene for a moment and if I could ask you, Mr.Curtis, I understand you obviously have somedifficulty with Holland College as well as the PoliceAcademy but as related to this amendment to theHolland College Act to allow them to grant applieddegrees, what would be the gist of your oppositionto such a move.

John Curtis: Okay, if I read anything right, itgoes toward the Minister of Education?

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): I believe if thiscommittee were to recommend allowing HollandCollege to grant applied degrees and then if itwere in turn, passed by the Provincial Legislature,then any proposal to have an applied degree inany discipline at Holland College would first haveto be presented to the minister as a business planand seek approval from the minister prior to theminister giving the green light to allow HollandCollege to proceed.

John Curtis: I want the approval to come fromthe entire Legislature.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): I beg yourpardon?

John Curtis: Maybe I misunderstood this billwrong then.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): If this committeerecommends that Holland College be allowed togrant applied degrees, then that recommendationwill go to the Legislature. We are mandated toreport to the entire Provincial Legislature. Then ifthe Legislature takes it up as an amendment to theHolland College Act, if it is approved and indeed

Holland College is granted this power to grantapplied degrees, before they begin to do that, theystill have to submit a business plan to the Ministerof Education that would prove to the Minister ofEducation a number of things in terms of cost, etcetera, whether or not it’s going to be a viable typeof discipline to get involved in.

John Curtis: And when you have problems withit, okay? I ran for City Council, alright? Anelectorate of government, right, on a legislativecommittee and I wouldn’t allow in my opinion, anyof the police–municipalities to own their own policeforce, okay? I don’t think the City of Summersideis competent in dealing with police matters andwhat I’m saying is I look at the incident with theAtlantic Police Academy, right? The lady, thesecretary told me they have no control over theAtlantic Police Academy. So you guys have toshow me where, when you have problems, they’regoing to have control over it. Do you follow me?Do you follow my gist now?

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): I’m trying to, yes.

John Curtis: Okay, so this is what the secretaryof the President of Holland College told me. Theyhave no control over the Atlantic Police Academy.So when you bring forth these applied degrees. ..

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Well, Mr. Curtis,what I’m going to do, is I’m going to allow you afurther minute on this issue for the record tosummarize your objections to this before we moveon to the second issue of the retail sale of tobacco.

John Curtis: I just want something in place.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Yes.

John Curtis: They have to be ISO standards,right? Okay, and I’ll go this way, if they don’t seekaccreditation in the hospitals, right, there has to bea method to deal with complaints. So you have tohave in this applied degrees, a method to deal withcomplaints. Put it this way, if it was up to me,because the secretary in the office of the Presidentof Holland College told me they have no controlover the Atlantic Police Academy. If they go andapply for an applied degree, a degree in policing,do you follow me? There’s got to be, you got toput something in there to make sure that whenproblems arise there, they’re corrected. That’s

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what I’m trying to get at.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): A point well madeand for the record, I believe that is clear. I wonderif we could move on to your second submissionthis evening, Mr. Curtis, which is in relation to theissue for which everyone else, I believe, hasattended tonight and that is to comment on theretail sale of tobacco on Prince Edward Island.

John Curtis: My dad, he smoked and he hadlung operations, and he lost parts of both hislungs. But he was fortunate in that his tumorswere benign, they weren’t cancerous. Okay, it ismy opinion that the federal and provincialgovernments across Canada are endangering thelives of Canadians and contributing to the deathsof those who smoke tobacco products.

I took a course on health and safety and I learnedwhere a linesman employed by New BrunswickPower was killed. The linesman operated a bucketwhich was broken and resulted in the death of thelinesman. An investigation revealed where thebearings of the bucket were supposed to bechecked for defects. New Brunswick Power wasfined $200,000. Because they did theinvestigation and because they found a memo andthe memo told the company to check the bearings.I’m using this as an example for a case. Alright,my point is this, there’s a book at the Summersidelibrary, it’s entitled Chemistry for the Million, and itclearly points out that filters on cigarettes aren’tgoing to stop people from getting cancer.

I watched a news story where a tobacco companyin the United States was fined $10 billion, they putthe word ‘light’ on a cigarette package. They werefind $3 billion in punitive damages and $7 billion incompensatory damages and they had to admitpublicly there’s no such thing as a clean cigarette.

The federal government, it took out all the brainstems and all the blood products from cows toprevent mad cow disease. There’s a NDP putforth a Private Members Bill to take out trans fats.Cigarettes are loaded with carcinogens and thecigarette tobacco companies put in nicotine to getpeople addicted. Smoking is a learned behaviour,but the simple fact is going back to this caseinvolving the New Brunswick linesman, there wasa memo. You know it, you know they’re selling aproduct loaded with carcinogens. You knowthey’re selling a product that causes cancer, right?

There’s 47,000 Canadians die each year.

So when it comes to retail sales of cigarettes, youhave either one or two choices. Either (a) theytake out all the carcinogens and they take thenicotine out of the cigarettes; or (b) you go with atotal ban on cigarette sales.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): That’s what you’readvocating? Just outright banning?

John Curtis: I’ll put it to you this way, Al Caponesaid it when he was talking about selling booze.“He only sold the public what they wanted.” TheConstitution of Canada puts the onus on theLegislatures to prove their legislation. There’s nosuch thing as a clean cigarette. A filter isn’t goingto stop a person from getting cancer. So if you’regoing to sell a product, you got to sell one that’ssafe and not a health risk to the public.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Well Mr. Curtis, Iwant to thank you very much for your expressionof your views on both of these issues this evening.I do want to ask any committee members if theyhave any questions to pose on either one of thosetopics before we move on to any furtherpresentations tonight. We do have a long agendathis evening. Thank you, Mr. Curtis.

Part II - PEI Pharmaceutical Association: FredMartin

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Our secondpresenter this evening is a representative of thePrince Edward Island Pharmaceutical Association,a Mr. Fred Martin. Mr. Martin, please come to thetable. Good evening, sir.

Fred Martin: Good evening, I know you’ve had along day.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): That’s okay, lotsof time for you, the floor is yours, sir.

Fred Martin: Okay, thank you Mr. Chairman,MLA’s, ladies and gentlemen of the public. Myname is Fred Martin, as Wayne has said. I am apart time Executive Director of the PEIPharmaceutical Association. This association isbasically the advocacy group for pharmacists onPrince Edward Island. There are about 140 - 145pharmacists licensed on PEI. We’re a voluntarygroup and our membership is approximately 106

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members of those 145 are members of ourassociation.

I certainly appreciate the opportunity to present tothis committee on this particular topic. The debateon “place of sale for tobacco products” certainlyisn’t a new one. This is a subject which has beendiscussed on and off over the past many years.

The PEI Pharmaceutical Association has alwaysbeen pro-active on this issue. The associationrecognizes the hazards of smoking, and as such,has always promoted that pharmacy owners not tosell tobacco products in their pharmacies. Thisinitiative, and others, has led to a significantnumber of pharmacies voluntarily removingtobacco products from their shelves. Additionally,the association has been active in various smokingcessation programs. All pharmacies promote theSmokers’ Help Line and Jeannie Lea certainly hasbeen a guest speaker at our educationalconferences over the years and is a frequentcontributor to our association newsletter.

Presently, there are 38 community pharmacies onPrince Edward Island. Twenty-two, so almost 60per cent of those, already do not sell any tobaccoproducts. Other stores have held out, askingrather that all stores be legislated to removetobacco products in order to have the impact fairlyshared by all pharmacies. Competition’s awonderful thing.

To this end, the association, in 1995, requestedthe government of the day and current Healthminister at the time to legislate the ban of the saleof tobacco products from pharmacies in PEI. Thatrequest was turned down. Again, here we are withthe debate re-surfaced - initially directed only atpharmacies in this province but we certainlybelieve the issue is broader than that.

A number of points I’d like to make in my timeremaining here:

1. The PEI Pharmaceutical Association does notbelieve the removal of tobacco sales from theremaining 42 per cent of pharmacies in theprovince would impact the consumption of tobaccoon PEI.

2. Pharmacies represent less than 5 per cent ofthe retail tobacco outlets on Prince Edward Island.

3. Fairness and the right of individuals topurchase tobacco at the retail establishment oftheir choice should be respected.

Some individuals choose to quit smoking andwe’re certainly working with them everyday in ourpharmacies. Along with other governmentinitiatives to help to achieve their goal. Otherschoose to smoke and have the right to purchasetobacco at the retail establishment of their choice.People have choices and they make them everyday.

Having said that, if government really wants tomake an impact on the reduction of tobaccoconsumption, a strictly regulated system would bethe route to pursue, in our opinion. For example,the sale of tobacco products in government-regulated liquor stores only, just is one example.The association feels this would definitely impacttobacco consumption in the province and ourassociation would support such an initiative.

4. For many pharmacies that continue to selltobacco products, the immediate removal wouldhave a significant economic impact to thatpharmacy; and my final point,

5. The association would like to take thisopportunity to commend the government, theDepartment of Health and Social Services, inparticular, for the many initiatives with respect tosmoking cessation, basically leaders in many ofthe provinces across the country with respect toour smoking cessation program. So certainly ourassociation has been an integral part of that andwe congratulate government for that.

Finally, if your committee decides to recommendthat tobacco sales in pharmacies be discontinued,we would ask for a phasing out approach over aspecific time frame. If committee members haveany questions, I would be pleased to addressthem, and I certainly thank the committee for theopportunity to appear and in particular, coming toSummerside. I appreciate that. It’s closer for meand I know some of you have had a long day sofar, so thanks very much. If you have anyquestions, I’d be glad to try and address them.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Thank you, Mr.Martin. I’m getting a list of questioners togetherhere right now and the first up is Mr. Ghiz, go rightahead, sir.

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Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Thank you verymuch for your presentation. I guess yourassociation was for the ban in ‘95, right now fromwhat I can gather, you’re basically for the ban butyou’d like to see if we’re going to do some banningto make it across the board at convenience storesand everything else?

Fred Martin: Well, as I said, focusing onpharmacies, I don’t believe will make any impacton tobacco consumption in this province. Isn’t thatthe intent?

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Well honestly, Ithink what part of the problem is, it’s the perceptionand the contradictory of selling cigarettes in apharmacy where you actually go to buy things thatmake you better. And I think that’s where there isa problem. But I think, you know, this is going tobe a long phasing process and the smoking banlast year was a good move by this government.And now this will be another step and I thinkmaybe in a couple of years, we will be exploringperhaps the final step which will be limitingcigarette sales to certain areas. But my lastquestion for you is what would be, in your opinion,a decent phase-in period for the pharmacies onPrince Edward Island?

Fred Martin: Other provinces have–there’s beendifferent approaches across the–and in particularthe Atlantic Region and into Quebec where it’shappened very suddenly or for example, theProvince of Newfoundland, the association therehas taken a pro-active stance over a five-yearperiod. It varies; it’s all over the place, where insome provinces, as I said. . .

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): We’re probably–Ihope we’ll be looking at introducing this legislationin the upcoming sitting, would to the year 2005, besomething that the Pharmacy Association wouldagree or disagree with or would it just be a fairdecision?

Fred Martin: Let me understand you then. Soyou, in fact, are talking a specific ban inpharmacies only?

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Yes.

Fred Martin: Well first of all, I don’t support that.Our association doesn’t support that.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Okay, but yousaid if we’re going to do it, you would like to see aphase-in period. So I’m just wondering, whatyour–I’m looking, because I personally do believewe will be seeing this legislation come forward. SoI’m wondering as a member of the Legislature, if Iwas in the Legislature, which way should I bepushing? Should I be pushing for it to happenimmediately? Or ask for a phase-in, in six monthsor a year, what would be fair, in your opinion, tothe Pharmacy Association?

Fred Martin: I think you can, you know, I can’tspeak for the other pharmacy owners. I’m nothere speaking for pharmacy owners who selltobacco. Personally, I think any phase-in period,whether it’s two years, three years, is a fair way togo, if in fact, you’re going to focus on pharmacies.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Okay, thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Any furtherquestions? Minister MacFadyen.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): Thank youvery much for your presentation. It’s nice seeingyou.

Fred Martin: Yes, you too.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): I’m justwondering like you say in your presentation thatyour association was in favour of a ban in ‘95, andnow you say that you’re not in favour of a ban andI’m wondering why the change.

Fred Martin: Well probably for a couple ofreasons, the executive of the day, that’s where Itake my direction as a part-time worker for theassociation, I take my direction from our executiveand our president. The executive of the day wasadamant at that time that was the way to go. Butwhat happened after that was in fact, ourassociation promoting pharmacies getting out ofthe tobacco business. I think we’ve seen asignificant impact that way over the years. So Ithink, I don’t have a number on the pharmaciesunfortunately. When I went to look at our files in‘95, the number of pharmacies that were sellingtobacco which is not, I would think it would be asignificant more than this percentage for sure.

So we have seen an evolution over the years. Ithink that evolution is going to continue, with or

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without this legislation. So I think, we’ve seen achange in the attitudes of our executive. We’veseen a change in attitudes in pharmacy owners. Alot of pharmacy owners have got out of thetobacco business. So I think we’ve seen that,we’ve seen the evolving of the profession in a lotof different areas and I think this is anotherevolution that’s going to take place. I have nodoubt about that whether it’s in one year, twoyears or three years.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): Do youthink it’s fair or right that, as the HonourableLeader of the Opposition indicated, thatpharmacies’ role is to provide prescription andmedication to make people well?

Fred Martin: Well, as I said, I can think of–well I’lltalk about the evolution, I mean, how many yearshave pharmacies and every other retail in thisprovince been selling tobacco? Years and yearsand years. That’s not going to change over night.We’ve seen the evolution in my business and inother pharmacy businesses in this province.Years ago, you couldn’t get your blood pressurechecked in a pharmacy. You can today. Yearsago, you couldn’t get your cholesterol checked ina pharmacy. You can today. Years ago, youcouldn’t get your blood glucose checked. Sowe’ve seen an evolving profession from thatperspective and I think we’re going to see itcontinue to evolve and I think we will eventually beout of the tobacco business. Like I say, I thinkfrom the perspective of the businesses, you haveto plan on this thing cause for some businesses,it’s going to be a significant impact.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): And youalso indicated in your comments that not allpharmacies are members of the PEIPharmaceutical Association?

Fred Martin: No, what I said was not allpharmacists.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): Not allpharmacists. Thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. Bagnall andthen Dr. McKenna.

Jim Bagnall (PC): I guess, Fred, some of thethings that I’m interested in is if the ban comes onpharmacies as the way they’re talking about it at

the present time, what I see, I can’t see where it’sgoing to make very much of a difference. And whyI say that is I’m looking at Sobeys’ pharmacies thatare being put into stores now and Superstores andthey are building a separate smoke shop as youcome inside the building. So they’re foreseeing inthe future that this maybe happening and they’repreparing for it and I think what you’ll find is thatany pharmacy that has been doing a big businesswill end up doing the same thing if it’s going toimpact their business in a big way. What’s yourfeeling on that?

Fred Martin: Well, you’re absolutely right. That’sbeen the trend of the big, the box stores and infact, that’s what they’ve done from the AtlanticSuperstore group to the Sobeys group. That’sbeen their approach. Otherwise, I can’t speak forindependent owners in this province, what theirapproach would be. But it’s–but that’s absolutelyright, that’s what’s happened. Another reason forit’s not going to make any difference in thisprovince to ban it from pharmacy. It may help withperception. That’s all you’re going to do. Is thatwhy this has been put together? I don’t think so.

Jim Bagnall (PC): You see, and what they’redoing is, they’re doing a double whammy becausemaybe the next line or thing that might comeforward was that we should take them out ofgrocery stores. So Superstore and . . .

Fred Martin: That’s been taken care of.

Jim Bagnall (PC): . . . have already looked afterthat.

Fred Martin: That’s right.

Jim Bagnall (PC): So what we’re going to beimpacting on are the small, independentbusinesses across this province if we go that way.You agree with that?

Fred Martin: Yes, oh yeah. It’s a fact, that that’swhat’s going on out there.

Jim Bagnall (PC): Although the question, do youstill sell cigarettes in your store?

Fred Martin: I do.

Jim Bagnall (PC): And would it be an impact toyour business?

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Fred Martin: Yes, my staff and I tackled this oneabout a year ago at one of our little brainstormingevening sessions over dinner and whatever andwe’ve made a decision, yes, we’re going to get outof that business. Since that time, and you have tolook for something to replace those pocket dollars,as you know, being in business before. You know,you try this line; you try that line. The only otherway really if you’re not getting your increases,significant increase in sales to offset that whicharen’t there these days for too many businesses,you know, you have to look at staffing and staffinglevels cause that’s your key, that’s your driver.Wages are your driver, always are. It doesn’tmatter what you’re in, whether you’re in a hospitalor a business. So we’ve made the approach, if wecan prove the margins to a certain extent, findsomething to replace that, then we’ll make themove. That’s a staff decision.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Dr. McKenna.

Tape No. 2

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Thank you, Fred, foryour presentation. Can you give a brief commenton the status across the country on pharmacies,what provinces are doing? Some stores are stillselling retail?

Fred Martin: Newfoundland is still selling. NovaScotia is out. New Brunswick is out. Quebec isout. Ontario is out and that’s the only ones I knowof for sure.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): And is the legislationpending in some of the other provinces?

Fred Martin: Not that I’m aware of.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Not that you’re awareof. Okay.

Fred Martin: There may be a couple. I know Isaw BC’s newsletter last week or about a monthago and they’re still promoting pharmacies notselling it but it’s not legislated at all.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): And I guess my otherquestion has to do with, I guess, the promotionalmaterial that can be used in the pharmacies orother retail environments, would you like to see aban on something like that? You know, you cango into a . . . I guess my local pharmacy I go to I

didn’t realize they sold cigarettes until I walked in.It’s something I don’t look for so I don’t know.Apparently there’s displays that attract you tocigarettes and whatever of which I wasn’t awareof. Is that something we should be looking into toget rid of, as an initial start, something like that aswell?

Fred Martin: Well, there’s been some significantchanges made in that the past several years withlegislation, you know, you can’t promote anymore.You can’t promote a price any more. There’sbeen, you know, a lot done in that regard. I thinkyou’ll see, if you looked at it a few years agoversus now, there’s very little promotional materialallowed basically by legislation.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Mr. Bagnall?

Jim Bagnall (PC): Just get back to, youmentioned five provinces, I believe thatpharmacists were taken out of the mix as far asselling cigarettes. Was it only pharmacies in thoseprovinces?

Fred Martin: Yes, I mentioned Newfoundland.They’re not out yet but they have a five-yearphase-in that the association is going to go thatroute. Only pharmacies that I’m aware of.

Jim Bagnall (PC): That’s only pharmacies. Sothey never touched grocery stores or any otherretail outlets?

Fred Martin: Not unless, again, they are a boxstore, for example, and most of those have put upsmoke shops.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Mr. Martin, just acouple of quick questions from me before I let yougo. The large stores like Sobeys, AtlanticSuperstore which operate pharmacies on the mainpart of their store, are they members of yourpharmaceutical group on the Island?

Fred Martin: Their pharmacists are, for the mostpart.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Their pharmacistare. They’re not like corporate members, youdon’t have a division for corporate members likethat?

Fred Martin: No, we don’t.

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Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: If this committeewere to recommend the banning of the sale oftobacco at the retail level within Island pharmacies,would it be fair to allow these operations tocontinue, these appendages, these tobacco storesthat are appended to the main store in which thereis a pharmacy?

Fred Martin: You know, I don’t feel I should becommenting on their businesses, Wayne, really.It’s a fact that’s what’s happened all over thecountry.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: But like you rightnow you’re still selling cigarettes in your pharmacyso your bottom line still benefits from the sale ofthem.

Fred Martin: Exactly.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Right now Sobeysand Atlantic Superstores still benefits from the saleof tobacco in their appendage stores. Correct?

Fred Martin: Correct.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: So what’s thedifference if we were to ban you from sellingtobacco and not them?

Fred Martin: That’s, I guess, for your committeeto decide. I mean you’ve made your point. Icertainly understand your point and don’t disagreewith it. But, you know, like I say, I’m certainly notaware that other provinces have gone that route.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Should it besomething, though that the determination is one ofa piece of geography or should it be somethingthat’s determined by whether or not someoneholds or has an employee who holds or benefitsfrom the sale of prescription drugs?

Fred Martin: Well, I disagree that you focus onpharmacies and pharmacies only. I disagree withthat as I said in my–so, you know, I mean that’smy point.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Alright. Thank youvery much, Mr. Martin.

Alright we’re calling on our third presenter thisevening. Mr. Neil Collishaw, Research Director,Physicians for a Smoke Free Canada. Mr.

Collishaw, welcome.

Part III - Neil Collishaw, Research Director ofPhysicians for a Smoke-Free Canada

Neil Collishaw: Good evening.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: The floor is yours,sir.

Neil Collishaw: Thank you very much. First I’dlike to thank members of the committee and inparticular your staff for being accommodating tome with a late request that I change my date ofappearance from next week to this week. I don’tmind telling you the reason why I requested thischange. Even though I’m from Ontario, I regardPrince Edward Island as my second home. Mymother was born here. Some of you mightrecognize the tie I’m wearing as a Ross tartan. Mymother was a Ross, born in Fortune Bridge inKings County. I spent many summers on PrinceEdward Island. I’m sorry to say that yesterday wegathered with family members to mourn thepassing of one of my aunts who passed at the ageof 93. Well, when you pass at 93 you might mournher death but you celebrate her life too. It was alife well lived as was many of my other aunts anduncles from Prince Edward Island.

Now, when people live that long, as indeed myaunt did and indeed some of her brothers andsisters, she still has brothers and sisters still aliveranging in age from 87 to 98 and I’ve learned agreat deal from these people in my life. And I’velearned the importance of good health and lookingafter yourself and I’ve learned there’s a very largesupply of common sense on Prince Edward Island,certainly in my family and I think in many otherfamilies as well, and one of the things that comesalong with common sense is when we’re teachingour children what’s good and what’s bad and tryingto influence them on what to do and what not todo. Of course, we don’t want them to get in harm’sway and we don’t want to put harm in their way.

Well, for one reason or another, both on PrinceEdward Island and elsewhere in Canada and theworld in fact, we’ve done that. We’ve putcigarettes in front of children and they got a hold ofthem. But with a good dose of common sense thatwe see on Prince Edward Island, I’m so pleased tosee that you’re actually discussing what we’regoing to do about this. That tells me that common

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sense is alive and well. We’ve got to dosomething about it. Well, what are we going to doabout it? There’s options on the table, we’rethinking about it, we’re discussing it.

Let’s first understand what, how big the problem isand I’ll refer to some of the, just the highlights ofwhat I’ve given you. You can read what has beenpassed around later on. First of all let’sunderstand that it is indeed a big problem. Mr.Curtis who spoke first was right about 47,000deaths. There are 47,000 deaths from tobacco inCanada and they account for 22 per cent of alldeaths and I’m sorry to say that these days PrinceEdward Island is close to the top of the list with 23per cent of people smoking and it’s certainly higherthan the national average of 20 per cent. Sothere’s clearly room for improvement.

Now there was some discussion just now aboutwhat is the situation in the rest of Canada and Ithink our previous presenter outlined the situationcorrectly that it’s pretty much every jurisdictioneast of Manitoba that has banned tobacco sales inpharmacies with the single exception of PrinceEdward Island. In Newfoundland, the ban is beingphased in, will be phased in completely by 2005.One jurisdiction that was not mentioned which hasalso banned the sale of tobacco in pharmacies isNunavut in the north. The issue has beendiscussed in the western provinces too with many,many people advocating a ban on tobacco sales inpharmacies. But it has not yet happened in thewestern provinces.

Now I had the opportunity to read the brief thatwas submitted to you, I believe last week, by theCouncil for a Smoke-Free PEI and I took greatdelight in reading a sensible brief with which Iagree and I’m happy to, on behalf of Physicians fora Smoke-Free Canada, endorse all of therecommendations of the Council. In particular I’dlike to just mention the first three that have to dowith banning the sale of tobacco products inpharmacies and related locations, which includedplaces where alcoholic beverages are served andvending machines in places and health carefacilities and so on. So we would certainlyendorse all of those issues.

Mr. Ghiz, you mentioned in your comments and Ibelieve others did as well, the issue of well, shouldpharmacies be selling tobacco at all regardless of

who else is selling them or what the economics ofthe situation are. Aren’t these health professionalsand shouldn’t we have some coherence in ourmessaging? Once again it gets back to the issueof common sense. That sounds like commonsense to me that if we have pharmacies that arehealth professionals, we go there for things torestore our health and maintain our good health,why are we selling tobacco there? And that’s thekind of reasoning that’s been gone through inmany of the neighboring provinces and otherjurisdictions where they’ve gone through thisdebate and come to that conclusion.

Now, the issue then has turned, naturally enough,to well what about other retail locations? Is it fairto have tobacco sold in other locations? Well, no,that flies in the face of common sense as well. Butlet’s all recognize it’s a big problem. If we look atit on a national basis, tobacco is sold in 70,000locations in Canada. That’s probably more thanplaces where you can go buy milk and bread. It’seasier to get a hold of cigarettes than it is to gethold of many other products and the tobaccocompanies strongly support that. According to thelatest information we have they spend around $80million a year in cash payments to retailers to helpthem maintain the stuff on the shelves. Well, that’sgoing to be a force to be reckoned with as theissue is debated.

And I believe there was a question earlier on, onwhether jurisdictions in Canada moved to controlthe sale of tobacco in any other kind of storebesides pharmacies. And I think the answer tothat question is no. Prince Edward Island wouldbe leading the way. But, of course, I’m sure you’reused to that. But you’d be leading the way inCanada. However, it is something that’s beendone in many other places. In countries of Europethey’re very familiar with controlling the sale oftobacco in retail locations because there’s a longhistory of government monopolies for tobacco inother jurisdictions.

Now, let’s take the case of France. I actually livedin France for a number of years so I’m quitefamiliar with what goes on there. They had amonopoly on tobacco sale, on tobaccomanufacturing and tobacco sales and some yearsago they sold off the manufacturing end of it butthey kept tight government control over the retailsale of tobacco. And the way it works is individualbusinesses still sell tobacco but it’s all tightly

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controlled by the government. They’re all licensedand they have to meet certain conditions to getone of these licenses to sell tobacco and they’reall, both the numbers and the conditions ofregulation are controlled tightly. And you can justlook at the numbers–France has about twice thepopulation of Canada, around 60 million people,but about half the number of tobacco retailers asCanada. So there’s a much lower density oftobacco retailers in France than in Canada. And ifwe were to apply right now the numbers, theFrench system in PEI, instead of 383 tobaccoretailers, there would be 77.

So government control of retail can be done, it hasbeen done. It’s been done for decades anddecades in France and other European countriesas well. So now, that’s not going to be achievedovernight. And I think your Council recommendedmoving towards limiting the sale of tobacco to afew retail locations such as liquor stores or someother controlled location, both controlled both byregulation–what they could do–and in number, by2007. I think that’s recognition that won’t beachieved overnight. There’s going to be muchdiscussion. People will raise a number ofconcerns. I want it to be known if the PEILegislature wishes to pursue this route you cancertainly count on any advice, encouragement,assistance from Physicians for a Smoke-FreeCanada, members of the Council for a Tobacco-Free PEI and our other colleagues in public healthright across Canada. We’ll be rooting for you.Thank you very much.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Thank you, Mr.Collishaw. And do we have questions fromcommittee members? Mr. Ghiz?

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Thank you verymuch for making the trip. I probably agree withabout 85 per cent of your suggestions. I do, asyou can probably tell by my questions to the lastpresenter, that I do agree we probably shouldmove towards banning it in pharmacies. I like thedate effective January 1, 2005. Gives them a littletime to phase in. I also think we should go thenext step as our Chair was mentioning as well andthat is banning it within the Sobeys and the AtlanticSuperstores. You know, here we are going in andyou’ve got vegetables and you’ve got cigarettesright next to each other and it’s just kind of . . .Along with the drugstore, at the same time, Idon’t think it really should be sold there either. So

I agree with those. Some of the other areas I dobelieve we have actually and I congratulate thisgovernment on moving towards smoke-free in ourpublic places here in Prince Edward Island and Ithink it’s a very good move on our part.

The next step I guess would be having it inlicensed facilities, whether or not it’s liquor storesor whatnot? I’m not really prepared to move thatway yet. I might be by 2006 or 2007 but as of rightnow, I can be honest with you, I’m not. Our smallcorner stores, where I think a lot of peopleprobably buy cigarettes, you know you don’t seethe owners there driving around in Mercedes oranything. It’s kind of something that still keepsthem going and I think even by banning it in someof these pharmacies and Superstores and whatnotit might help pick up some business in some ofthose areas.

But where I would be willing to take a look at, andI know that a former presenter and yourself, youmentioned a little bit about advertising and the banon it. But I think what a lot of people don’t realize,and we had this discussion last time and I waskind of like Mr. McKenna, that we don’t reallynotice or I don’t really notice and I don’t thinkDavid did either, the subliminal advertising thatthese places do with their tobacco products. AndI never really noticed going into, whether or not it’sa corner store, where they have beautiful red,white and blue with cigarettes all lined up to makeit look very attractive and appealing to young kids.

So I would be willing to move, in terms of into thatlevel. Perhaps where they keep the cigarettesunder the counter–they’re not out in public. Butyou never know, maybe by 2006, I’ll change mymind again in terms of doing the ban there. So I’djust like to point out that I agree with, you know,the majority of your suggestions here and I’d like tothank you for making the trip. So I don’t reallyhave any questions. I apologize for that, Mr.Chair. Oh, I do have one question. I have onequick question. And I hate to pick on anyone here.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: I knew there was aquestion lurking there.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): France,Europe–isn’t their per cent of smokers higher thanus.

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Neil Collishaw: Yes, it is at the moment.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): I hate to pick ahole in the whole thing after I say I agree with it.

Neil Collishaw: No, that’s quite right. It ishigher in France right now but if we look at thesituation historically, if we go back to the 1970'sand 1980's, Canada had much higher rates oftobacco smoking than France at that time. In factin 1981, Canada had the highest rate of smokingin the world. So we made tremendous progressover the last 20 years. The French have madesome progress but we’ve done a little better thanthey have and we can thank things like a wholebunch of other things that have gone on, likebanning most forms of tobacco advertising, puttingwarnings on the package.

We’re very grateful for what PEI has done tocontrol smoking in public places and work placesand maybe we’ll go a little further one day and getrid of designated smoking rooms too. But so farPEI is in the forefront there. And France, Francehas kind of fallen behind in some of those areasbut their limitations on numbers of retail salesprobably helped them avoid the huge peaks insmoking that Canada had earlier on.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Very good. Mr.Bagnall?

Jim Bagnall (PC): Thank you. Good presentation.A question. You mentioned on the other provincesthat have gone out of smokes, have stoppedpharmacies from selling cigarettes. Has thepercentage of sales in those provinces gone downfor tobacco?

Neil Collishaw: Percentage of sales where?Like, has consumption gone down?

Jim Bagnall (PC): Yes.

Fred Martin: Yes, consumption has gone down.Consumption’s gone down remarkably right acrossthe country in every province including PrinceEdward Island. Some provinces have obviouslydone a lot better. I think the lowest rate of smokingin Canada now is 16 per cent in British Columbiawhere sales are still allowed in pharmacies. Butit’s down in Quebec, it’s down in Ontario, wheresales are not allowed.

The problem is that in Prince Edward Island and inother provinces we have implemented a wholebunch of tobacco control measures, more or lessat the same time, which makes it very difficult forus to disentangle and say, this measure led to thismuch decline in consumption and this one to thismuch and so on. It’s not the kind of analysis wecan do. On one hand it’s a problem and it meansI can’t answer your question directly.

On the other hand it’s the solution because that’swhat the World Health Organization has beenrecommending. That’s what major public healthagencies, ours and others, have beenrecommending–that governments implementscomprehensive tobacco control programs. It’ll allwork together and it’ll all drive down smoking andthat’s working.

Jim Bagnall (PC): In your recommendations onyour last page of your brief, 1 (a) that governmentintroduce legislation that would ban the sale oftobacco products in all Island pharmacies and inall establishments that contain a pharmacy. Soare you getting at, is this particular part getting atthe Superstores and the Sobeys and the smokeshops in their buildings?

Neil Collishaw: Yes it would. Once again, it’scommon sense if, you know, we don’t want to puta rule in place that people just try and get around,you know. If you want a rule it should meansomething.

Jim Bagnall (PC): So what would happen in amall where you have 40 or 50 or 60 stores and youhave a convenience store that’s selling tobaccoand you also have a drug store that’s at the otherend of it? Are you telling us that that particularconvenience store would not be allowed to sell?

Neil Collishaw: No, no. Establishment–I thinkthat could mean a store would be considered adifferent establishment than the Sobeys. It’s adifferent business.

Jim Bagnall (PC): It’s still under the same roof.

Neil Collishaw: It’s a different business.

Jim Bagnall (PC): Okay.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Ms. Bertram?

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Carolyn Bertram (L): Thank you, Mr. Collishaw,for your presentation. I just have a question interms of Smoke-Free Canada. Has theorganization ever gone into interview schools interms of we know these habits develop at youngerages, have you gone in to do any studies with highschool students, junior high students, as to how .. . asking the question–what are ways that wouldprevent you from smoking or buying cigarettes?

Neil Collishaw: We haven’t done those studiesourselves but others have done them and you getanswers but I’m a little frustrated by reading theresults of this research because you get all kindsof answers. The kids give you lots of answers.Well, you know, for some kids reducing thenumber of points of sale would help them and iftheir parents didn’t smoke it would help them. Soyou get a whole bunch of answers and it doesn’t,it isn’t particularly helpful to us in trying to formpublic policy in that there’s just as big a range ofanswers to that kind of question as there is kidsout there in the community. So there’s no singleanswer that the kids have given in studies very likethe ones you described that can help us.

So once again we get back to comprehensivemeasures of which the ones we’re recommendinghere as is the Council for a Smoke-Free PEI as theones that would work.

Carolyn Bertram (L): Now, if we, you know, wedo go, if we do a phase-in, you know, on PrinceEdward Island, do you see anything that we onPrince Edward Island could do with our schools interms of helping our children so that they don’tchoose to smoke?

Neil Collishaw: Yes, yes.

Carolyn Bertram (L): You know, something thatwe could tap into.

Neil Collishaw: Part of the comprehensiveapproach to tobacco control that we and othersrecommend includes continuing doses ofeducation in our schools. Educating kids about thedangers of smoking and there are various proventechniques for doing this and we must continuethem. Frankly I’m not up to date on just whatexactly is going on in PEI schools right now butwhat we do know is that we just can’t stop. Wehave to keep telling our kids about the dangers oftobacco and making sure schools are exemplary

institutions as well, making sure there’s nosmoking there.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: MinisterMacFadyen?

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): Yes,thank you very much, Mr. Collishaw, for yourpresentation. I’m just wondering in regards to . . .we can’t control people who smoke in their homesand to be the devil’s advocate you say in one ofyour recommendations that the restrictions shouldalso include hospitals and other health carefacilities and we have a lot of people in theprovince that, you know, we are an agingpopulation where people live in institutions andreally I guess the room in the facility is really theirhome. Do you think that the ban should alsoinclude the restriction that a person who’s in anursing home shouldn’t be allowed to smoke in theroom that’s their home.

Neil Collishaw: Well, Mr. MacFadyen, I think it’sa difficult issue. But it’s also the case that theseinstitutions where people live, chronic carefacilities, they’re also places where people workand if I remember rightly I think you have someresponsibilities for where people work, you know,we have to consider that as well. And yes, I dothink the sale of tobacco should be banned inthose facilities but the point you raised will have tobe considered but I think it could be done, that wecould make some, you know, some humaneconsideration for the folks that live there.

Wayne Collins (PC) Chair: Just one finalquestion before you go, Mr. Collishaw, I’d like tocome back to recommendation 1 (a) related to thatfinal part–and in all establishments that contain apharmacy. Where would you draw the line, bothliterally and figuratively when it comes to that? Imean right now you come out of these stores, youtake one gulp of fresh air, hang a left and you’re inthe tobacconist area, correct? Other places, allyou had to do was walk across the street and buytobacco, the same establishment necessarily butit’s separated. It’s not attached. Where do youdraw the line? I mean is it just it should be ageographical, physical thing or should it besomething more related to pharmacy?

Neil Collishaw: When they brought the ban in,in Ontario I remember that the first thing thathappened was the Shopper’s Drug Mart just kind

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of moved a wall around so that if you were in themall and you went into Shopper’s Drug Mart whereit’s a big open front, instead of that they just, inexactly the same space, they just put a little glasswall around one little corner of the same store andthat was where they sold the tobacco. Well, that’sthe kind of thing that strikes me as a flagrantabuse of the rule.

Now, what you say is true. I don’t think however,in the first instance, in the first phase ofimplementing a coherent and sensible set ofrecommendations that it would be reasonable tosay, okay, we’re going to say that the tobacconistnext door or the tobacconist across the streetcounts in the same establishment if it isn’t thesame business. If it isn’t the same business thenI think it is reasonable and at least in this, withrespect to this first recommendation to draw theline as I was getting at when we discussed thisearlier. Well, it’s business by business. It’s thisbusiness and then that business. But later on,when you get closer to 2007, I think the wholething will start making sense.

Tape No. 3

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): I don’t know if Imade myself clear but I’m saying that if someonehas a pharmacy where they would not be sellingcigarettes but across the street they have a storewhere they are selling cigarettes, same person.

Neil Collishaw: It’s the same person.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): So do you banthat person from selling across the street asopposed to the person who is selling just becausehe has a little tobacconist that’s an appendage ofhis superstore? So where do you draw the line?How do you make the level playing field,geographically?

Neil Collishaw: Well I think you pointed to thefact that at some point, somebody has to draw anarbitrary line. I’ve given you one suggestion and itwould be, you know, if it looks like a separatebusiness, well then it can be considered a secondbusiness.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): If it looks like asecond business.

Neil Collishaw: But I would urge you not toconsider recommendation 1(a) in isolation; but toconsider all of the recommendations that are madeby both us and the council and look at 1(a) as astep along the way, moving towardrecommendation 5. And I think getting towardsrecommendation 5 starts with recommendation1(a). And yes, it won’t be–there will be somearbitrariness and some things that aren’t verysensible but they can be worked out by the timeyou get to number 5.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Thank you verymuch for your optimism.

Neil Collishaw: You’ve very welcome.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Thank you forjoining us this evening, Mr. Collishaw. We have,I wonder–we’ll just continue on, I guess, Clerk.How are we doing for time?

Marian Johnston (Committee Clerk): It’s just8:00 o’clock.

Part IV - Pat Murphy, Convenience Store Owner

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Just 8:00 o’clock,we’re doing fine. Our next presenter is Mr. PatMurphy and Mr. Murphy is described as a memberof the Convenience Store Owners Community. Idon’t know if you have a formal association orgroup that you’re representing but I’m sure you’lllet us know.

Pat Murphy: I’m more or less representingmyself and I’m sure most convenience storeowners feel the same way.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Welcome Mr.Murphy, the floor is yours, sir.

Pat Murphy: Thank you. Honourable Chairmanand Committee Members - as the chair stated, Iown and operate Murphy’s Ultramar Quik Way upin Alberton and have so for the past nine years.Over this period, I’ve seen several governmentdecisions made which directly affected mybusiness such as the removal of the video lotteryterminals and waste watch, smoking ban.Although these are positive steps and are seen tobe positive steps, they still affected my businessnegatively. But by working more hours, myselfand cutting back on my hours of operation, I

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survived although making less income for morework.

This being said and taking into account thattobacco sales represent up to 60 per cent of my c-store sales and is definitely my biggest trafficbuilder for other sales, I’m confident that if I was nolonger allowed to sell tobacco products in myconvenience store, I would certainly not be able tostay in business, and I think this is true for thewhole c-store businesses on the Island. As youare all aware, every c-store relies on these sales tobuild traffic and for a great percentage of theirsales.

I can state with confidence that if these suggestedactions were taken which I mean limiting tobaccosales to select stores and liquor stores, it wouldcertainly be the collapse of the c-store industry onPrince Edward Island. It should also be noted thatc-stores provide a great service to theircommunities such as lotto ticket sales, white salesand other convenient things such as drop off andpickup points for things that takes place in thecommunities. When was the last time one of youpeople used a c-store? I’m sure you probablyused one today. Did you talk to your neighbourwhile you were there? It’s a good social point too.

As far as keeping tobacco products out of thehands of minors, I think we do a great job. We arechecked regularly by the Department of Healthwhere they send in spot checkers to check on us,underage people and try to get them to purchasesmokes. Every month you get a letter saying thatyou done good or whatever, you didn’t sellcigarettes to them. I’ve never heard of any storesbeing charged for selling to minors, anyconvenience stores. And it might be interesting tocompare if possible, the incidents of minorsgaining access to retail liquor outlets as opposedto purchasing tobacco products at c-stores. I don’tknow if that’s possible.

There is no doubt that tobacco is harmful and it isending up in minor’s hands. However, I think byrestricting sales to retail liquor outlets or selectstores which I don’t think would be very fair if youjust picked this convenience store to sell them andthis one don’t, sort of thing. You would almost becertainly encouraging black market sales whichwould make tobacco products much moreaccessible to minors.

I think one solution to the problem would be for thiscommittee to look at changing the whole tobaccolaw, make it illegal for a person under the age of19 to possess tobacco products much the same asit is with alcohol because I mean, I see it all thetime in my business, I’ll refuse a sale and theyoung person will stand outside the door and waitfor somebody 19, one of his friends to come to buythe tobacco products for him. I mean, right nowthe law is that it is only illegal for us to sell it tothem. It’s not illegal for them to try to buy them, it’snot illegal for them to buy them, whereas withalcohol it is. I mean, it’s illegal for a person under19 to possess alcohol. Anyway, I don’t think it’smuch of a deterrent if you just let the kids just keeptrying until they get tobacco products.

Thank you for letting me say my piece and pleasedon’t put us out of business.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): We appreciateyour presentation, Mr. Murphy. First question, Mr.Bagnall and then Mr. Mooney.

Jim Bagnall (PC): I guess you’ve touched on twopoints that was always a sour point when I was inbusiness and I just wanted to say that I–thosewere the issues that I used to bring up constantlywas the person coming in underage trying to buycigarettes, try to trick us into selling to them, thatwas the number one issue. And the number twoissue is what you addressed is that we would turndown people like you do and they would gooutside and have somebody else come in and–theonus was always on the retailer and never on theindividual. Because you could always–if we soldthem, we were in trouble but they could go out andsit, walking down the street and smoke them.

Pat Murphy: There’s no deterrent for them tostop. They’ll not stop trying to get the product.

Jim Bagnall (PC): There’s no deterrentwhatsoever, so it was kind of good to see youtouch on those two issues. Yes, I agree with you,your line on the convenience stores that tobaccoproducts do make up a large portion of your salesand they also are a great traffic generator to yourbusiness. So I do see where you’re coming fromin that thing. I guess part of my–I always felt wasthat tobacco sales I always felt should not be soldin pharmacies or drugstores because they promotehealth. I guess the only way that I think that if youcould put a full ban on is if a federal ban comes

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down which prohibits the sale of tobacco, but Idon’t think we’ll see that probably. I just wanted tocomment on your presentation because it hits thepoint of any small convenience store or family-owned business across the Island, that they docount on that sale for their business.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. Mooney andthen Mr. Ghiz.

Andy Mooney (PC): Basically, I guess Jim haskind of hit on the very points I was going to bringup and I think the same as if you are not oldenough to buy them, perhaps you shouldn’t be oldenough to carry them around with you as well. Ithink it’s kind of a strange setup so I just wanted tosay I certainly agree with your presentation.

Pat Murphy: Thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. Ghiz.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): I agree with you,too on that point but I don’t think it should be acriminal charge. Perhaps a find to the kid or thepolice take him in and call his parents.

Pat Murphy: Take him home and talk to hisparents.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Exactly,something like that but I don’t want to see kidsgetting a criminal record here.

Pat Murphy: Well, they’re talking aboutdecriminalizing marijuana.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): That’s anotherissue. My question is do you have one of thedisplay cases that we were talking about before?

Pat Murphy: Yes, it’s a display storage.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): How much do youget paid–do you get paid to put that in your storeper year?

Pat Murphy: A minimal amount.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): But they do payyou?

Pat Murphy: Yeah, I think it’s probably

something like three or $400 per year.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): In your opinion,would it hurt you if you had to put them under thecounter so you couldn’t see them?

Pat Murphy: No, I don’t think it would.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): I don’t think we’relooking at that now but maybe in a couple of yearsthat would be something, you know, I’m for sellingthem in convenience stores and I do see whatwould happen to the convenience stores andyou’re right there probably would be a blackmarket right now. The mood might change inthree or four years and who knows, the waysmoking is going down now, in three or four years,it might not be beneficial for you to sell cigarettesthen anyway. But for now, I think that could be thenext step we’re looking at but I don’t think it willcome up just yet. So thank you very much.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Any otherquestions. I have just a quick question but youmentioned just a few hundred dollars for thedisplay. I heard they were as much as $1500.

Pat Murphy: For the corporate stores maybe.I’m an individual.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): So for cornerstores, you would never see someone, a mom andpop operation getting $1500 to display?

Pat Murphy: If there are, I’d like to know them.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Just a second, Mr.Bagnall, go ahead. If you want to answer myquestion go ahead.

Jim Bagnall (PC): I can relate to that. I used to,years before bill, ‘95, about the federal has passedthere on tobacco, advertising of tobacco but I’mnot sure what bill it is.

Unidentified Member: Bill 71.

Jim Bagnall (PC): Bill 71, before that came in, inmy store tobacco sales used to be a large sale inmy store and I used to get up to $8000 a year formarketing space and advertising in my storebecause you always get them the very best space.They come in and offer you dollars for the very

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best space which is right behind your checkout. Atthat time, we did probably $200,000 worth oftobacco products and that’s back 15 years agoand that’s when tobacco was low. So we did a lotof tobacco business but we ran–that was the draw,that was the draw to get people into ourbusinesses and that’s why I say to you, I knowwhere you’re going from if we take that away fromyou.

Pat Murphy: I don’t think there’s as much spentnow from the tobacco companies.

Jim Bagnall (PC): They’re not allowed toadvertise like they used to. You know, that’s thebig thing.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): (Indistinct)

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Just one secondnow, I’m going to ask Dr. McKenna has a questionand then I’ll come back to you, Mr. Ghiz.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Just a question onthe–you say 60 per cent of your business of salesis tobacco?

Pat Murphy: Of my convenience store sales.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Convenience store,that’s astounding. Anyway, that’s pretty good. Myquestion I guess goes to the–I see the age of kidsbetween 15 and 19 smoking is 19 per cent now.Do you see less kids buying cigarettes, I mean,that age group smoking in your area compared toas you go around. . .?

Pat Murphy: Oh yeah, there’s a lot of kidssmoking, I notice that.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): There’s a highpercentage up there probably, is it that smoke,because I’m wondering if–do you notice a declinein your sales over the last number of yearsbecause of–supposedly the sales of tobacco isdecreasing, is it still about the same up there?

Pat Murphy: It’s still about the same in mybusiness anyway, I don’t know about other ruralareas.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): And back to Mr.Ghiz.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): I just had a quicksuggestion, if Jimmie got 8,000 and we did hearfrom another in the committee getting 1500, youshould be finding out who’s paying the moremoney. Thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. Murphy, thankyou very much for your presentation tonight. Wereally appreciate hearing from you. Some of myhonourable colleagues here - are we ready for ournext group?

Marian Johnston (Committee Clerk): They’llneed a few minutes to set up so maybe we’ll takea break.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Okay, maybe we’lltake a five-minute stretch and we’re going to allowour next group to get their setup prepared, so we’llassume in about five or ten minutes.

[Five-Minute Break]

Part V - SWITCH: Melissa McCabe, LeslieYoung

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): We’re now goingto assume our meeting of the Social DevelopmentCommittee with our next presentation of theevening on the issue of retail sales of tobacco onPrince Edward Island, and I know I had theopportunity to, first of all hear, and then encounterface-to-face some members of this group lastweek and anyone who is in and aroundCharlottetown, around Province House, could nothelp but hear them, very loud in theirendorsement, advocacy of a smoke-free PrinceEdward Island and I want to welcome them herethis evening. It’s a group called SWITCH whichstands for Students Working In Tobacco Can Help.These are members of the club and they want tocome forward to the table to introduce themselvesand their presentation tonight, we’re very pleasedto hear from you.

Melissa McCabe: Good evening, everybody. I’mMelissa McCabe and this is Leslie Young andwe’re both students at Three Oaks Senior High.We’re both members of SWITCH at our school.SWITCH is a group of high school students whoare both smokers and non-smokers from acrossPEI. SWITCH promotes the dangers anddisadvantages of smoking. SWITCH groups areencouraged to do creative projects such as the

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one that we did last week in Charlottetown thatsome of you saw. We spray painted 129 bodies inthe snow to represent the number of Canadianswho die everyday from smoking-related illnesses.

At SWITCH, we do not oppose smokersthemselves, but rather the big tobacco companiesand their manipulating advertisements. Westrongly oppose the sale of tobacco in pharmaciesas well as tobacco displays.

We had sort of short notice about this, so we didn’thave really a lot of time to get all the facts about itbut over all, governments end up spending moremoney on the illnesses that are caused by tobaccothrough health care than they make off therevenue that they get from selling tobaccoproducts. And either way, the government is stillmaking money off of selling the public productsthat are going to kill them.

The Canadian Tobacco Use Monitoring Survey in2000, found that 20 per cent of women from age15 to 17 smoke, with men at 20 per cent. And the18 to 19 group, 36 per cent of men and 32 per centof women were found to be smokers. Women,aged 20 to 22 had a smoking rate of 34 per cent,with men at 42 per cent. So although the smokingrates generally increase with the age, 90 per centof smokers start smoking before they’re 19.

The 1994 Youth Smoking Survey showed that 7per cent of kids, 10 to 14 were current smokers.Fifteen per cent of adolescents, 15 to 19 werecurrent smokers and one survey at a US highschool reported that 70 per cent of adolescentshad tried smoking while 36 per cent smoked on adaily basis. Every year, adolescents smoke 1.1billion cigarettes but cigarette smoking is not theonly form of tobacco that is currently a problem.Recently, chew tobacco is becoming more andmore popular in high schools in PEI.

Leslie Young: In 1996, major tobaccocompanies spent over $60 million on payments toretail businesses for their displays. These aresometimes known as power walls. It’s three timesthe amount they spend on all other types of media.They pay this inordinate amount of moneybecause the dominating power walls of tobaccodramatically increase their sales. But it isn’t justthe tobacco users that are exposed to thistemptation of massive walls of tobacco.

The youth of today, well they’re incrediblyimpressionable. Every single person is forced totake in these walls of tobacco, be it a six-year oldgoing to pay for a 5¢ bubble gum. It’s justpurposely placed tobacco and it has no placethere. Coming into stores from outside though thehypocrisy really begins whenever the subject ofpower walls and pharmacies arise. PEI is the onlyprovince, as earlier mentioned, east of Manitobawithout a ban of tobacco sales in pharmacies.Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick,Newfoundland and Nunavut all have bans.Pharmacies actually want bans. As of 1995, allprovincial pharmacy associations had requested aban on tobacco products. How contradictory is itthat the pharmacies get money for selling tobaccoand then turn around and make more money onthe drugs used to treat the diseases caused bytobacco. It’s entirely against any code of ethics.

I’d just like to take this opportunity to thank you forallowing us to speak here tonight.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): I want to thankyou very much. You’re both named, Leslie, is thatcorrect?

Melissa McCabe: No, I’m Melissa.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Melissa McCabeand Leslie Young? Okay. We got the namesstraight. Any questions for our presenters thisevening from SWITCH? Mr. Ghiz.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Obviously, Ithought that was a great presentation. I’m justwondering what grade you girls are in?

Leslie Young: I’m in grade 12.

Melissa McCabe: And I’m in grade 10.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): And do you havemany friends who smoke?

Leslie Young: Yes.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): How do they buytheir cigarettes?

Leslie Young: Through older friends.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): Through olderfriends. So they get somebody else. I though it

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was good because you talk a lot about the displaysand the subliminal messaging that the tobaccocompanies are doing and I though it was great.The presenter before you who owns aconvenience store and he said he wouldn’t have aproblem getting rid of his display and I think thatshould be an area that we start moving that way assoon as possible. I don’t know if it will happen thissession but perhaps next year it might happen. Sothank you very much, that was great.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Ms. Bertram andthen Minister MacFadyen.

Carolyn Bertram (L): Yes, thank you for yourpresentation, it was great. You mentioned thatSWITCH encourages creative projects and doingdifferent things. The projects, what are you doingat your school at Three Oaks?

Melissa McCabe: We have a week of livingdead.

Carolyn Bertram (L): Pardon?

Melissa McCabe: A week of the living deadwhere . . .

Carolyn Bertram (L): Okay.

Unidentified Member: Is that a group?(Laughter)

Melissa McCabe: . . . we announced everydayover our PA system, we announced some differentfacts about smoking and we had people inSWITCH hand out arm bands that said that theywere dead basically, so we had 129 of them weresupposed to have gone out every day becausethat’s how many people die every day in Canada.And if it weren’t for all the school cancellations, wewould have had a big thing at the end whereeveryone went up on the stage just to show howmany people died in the week of smoking. Sothat’s one that we did.

Carolyn Bertram (L): Thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. MacFadyen.

Honourable Elmer MacFadyen (PC): I don’thave a question. I just want to commend thegroup for this performance that you put on in frontof the Legislature last weekend and I must say that

the colouring was quite attractive. It got people’sattention and I did drive by your group and I didtoot in support.

Honourable Robert Ghiz (L): I’ll remember thatin the House then when this comes up.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Dr. McKenna.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Thanks for thepresentation, it was very good. I was just amazedthat you said the youth are actually chewingtobacco nowadays?

Leslie Young: Yeah, in high schools peopleactually have cups in their classroom and in thehallways that they spit in.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): That just astoundsme. I just, okay, I didn’t know you could still getchewing tobacco, to tell you the truth. I used tosell a lot as a kid and I’d be at a store. That’sawhile ago, but I guess my point is also, you stillsee the young people–like these power walls, youthink the young people are noticing these quite abit?

Leslie Young: I think that’s one of the biggestforms of advertisement. It’s very subliminal. It’snot actually a sign saying, chew tobacco or smokecigarettes but just the fact that it’s so dominant inany convenience store or pharmacy in particular.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): So would you wantthose banned in convenience stores andpharmacies? I mean pharmacies andconvenience stores or just the pharmacies fornow?

Leslie Young: Just the pharmacies for now, Ithink. Obviously, it would be a great step if wecould ban it in convenience stores as well but rightnow, it’s just incredibly hypocritical for thepharmacies to have it out there.

Melissa McCabe: What we’re advocatingagainst is the sales being banned in pharmacies,but the displays in the convenience stores.

Dr. David McKenna (PC): Okay, thank you.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Mr. Bagnall.

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Jim Bagnall (PC): I don’t really have a questionfor you. But I just wanted to say, I think you werebang-on in your presentation here tonight andyou’re right about the power walls because thepower walls are what sold the sales of product andcigarettes is an impulse item and when it’sdisplayed in mass like that, you’re right, it doescreate an atmosphere for people to think that theyshould be buying them. But it’s also done by theretailers for a reason is they can’t advertise thesigns anymore. I mean, you can’t put big signs upfrom Imperial Tobacco or Benson & Hedges orthese other companies. So the mass display ofproduct is the way they’ve counteracted that too,so they can get their cartons of cigarettes showingthe Benson’s & Hedges and the ImperialTobacco’s and all the different kinds, Rothman’s.So you’re right and I just wanted to say that you’reright on cue with a great presentation. You did agood job.

Wayne Collins (PC) (Chair): Melissa andLeslie, thank you both very much. We appreciatehearing from your group this evening.

Part VI - Ewen Clark, President, Board ofDirectors of PEI Division of the CanadianCancer Society & Ms. Dawn Binns, ActingExecutive Director of the PEI Division of theCanadian Cancer Society

Wayne Collings (PC) Chair: Our next presenterstonight are Mr. Ewen Clark is the president of theBoard of Directors of the PEI Division of theCanadian Cancer Society and with him is Ms.Dawn Binns. She’s the acting executive director ofthe PEI Division of the Canadian Cancer Societyand we welcome you both to the table tonight andlook forward to your presentation and at thisjuncture, I’m going to turn the floor over to both ofyou.

Tape 4

Ewen Clark: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dawn ispassing around a copy of the submission that wewill leave with you. You can follow along in somerespect if you left during our presentation or youcan read it at your leisure as you leave. We dohave some other documents at the end of ourpresentation that I will refer to as well, that we willalso be leaving with the committee.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Minister MacFadyen,Leader of the Opposition, MLA’s and thank you forthis very important task which you’ve taken uponyourselves to address this issue. A lot of themembers, as I sat back and listened to someearlier presentations this evening, were being veryfrank about some of their own personal thoughtsand maybe directions they may go with legislationin the future. I want to be clear and frank aboutwhat my vision and what the vision of theCanadian Cancer Society is as well. That is wesee PEI as a place where no Islanders smoke andno tobacco products are sold. We also recognizedand do recognize that that is some distance downthe road. For that reason, we applaud you onmoving forward with this in a step manner as weseen with the Smoke Free Public Places Act andobviously what we’re anticipating very shortly inthe next sitting of the Legislature.

We have a brief presentation this evening. I’ll begoing through . . . we’re going to leave fourrecommendations with you. I’m going to gothrough some preliminary information in the firstrecommendation and I’m going to hand the(Indistinct) if you like to my co-presenter, DawnBinns, to pick up from there and we’d be pleasedto answer any questions members may have atthe conclusion.

The Canadian Cancer Society is a nationalcommunity based organization of volunteers andour mission is the eradication of cancer and theenhancement of the quality of life of people livingwith cancer. The tobacco file has been on ourradar screen as well as many organizations likethe Physicians for Smoke Free Canada and manyothers who you have heard from already and willhear from in the future and it’s one that is there fora very good reason.

Of course, the CCS has five priority areas whichyou’ll see on the presentation, of researchprevention, advocacy information and support. Inrespect of comprehensive tobacco control, we seethere are really three key points that we focuson–prevention cessation and protection and alongwith many other of our health partners on PEI andacross the country the Canadian Cancer Societyworks in collaboration to get there. For exampleon the prevention side, we are very pleased tosupport the Switch Group who we’ve just heardfrom and many others like them whose efforts goa long way. In terms of cessation to give you an

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example, we support along with the PEI TobaccoReduction Alliance to help existing smokers quit.We’ve got a Smokers Help Line and also othersorts of other tools we make available as we can.

In terms of protection, we’re very pleased to workwith this committee and work with this government,most recently with the Smoke Free Public PlacesAct, to make legislative changes and we applaudthe steps that have been taken so far. Very briefly,in terms of the health burden or the cost ofsmoking, you’ll see the numbers are there, they’revery stark. Thirty per cent of all cancers arecaused by smoking, 85 per cent of lung cancersare caused by smoking, 362 Canadians will die oflung cancer every week. On PEI the financial costsare incredible–$10 million in direct health carecosts each year for smoking related illnesses, $43million in loss of productivity from members of ourpopulation on an annual basis. They are shatteringnumbers. I talked to you about our vision and ourposition is simply that tobacco should beconsidered a controlled substance and we proposethe following four recommendations to be phased-in in order to achieve our vision.

The first recommendation has really got fourseparate parts to it and I’ll go through them in thatorder. The first being introduction of legislation toban sale of tobacco products in hospitals and otherhealth care facilities including pharmacies andpremises that include pharmacies and kiosksaffiliated with the pharmacy. In the package ofinformation that we have distributed there is anexcerpt from the Newfoundland legislation and Iknow, I believe, Mr. Bagnall had asked earlier andeven you Mr. Collins, in terms of how do you drawthe line geographically and so forth. And that isone example of how they’ve done that in terms ofthe affiliation or what sort of a business orgeographically located. I believe it’s at tab three ofthe document.

In terms of the sales in pharmacies, one of themain issues that we see, of course, is the ethicalissue and that sale of tobacco in pharmacies isquite simply unethical. It’s against the pharmacist’sown code of ethics. We’ve heard the ProvincialPharmacy Association here tonight reinforce andrestate their commitment requesting the ban fortobacco sales. Although I’m hearing the PharmacyAssociation say they don’t want to be singled outas the only place for that ban, I’m not hearing themremove their request that the ban be put in place.

Clearly the tobacco sales is an obvious conflict ofinterest for them. As the SWITCH Group justmentioned, on the one hand they’re selling you thedrug and on the other hand they’re selling you theantidote. It doesn’t seem quite right. Otherjurisdictions, you’ve heard about from otherpresenters this evening, we’re the only provinceEast of Manitoba without a ban on pharmacy salesalbeit Newfoundland is in a phase-in process.

In terms of the constitutionality of the legislation,that’s always a concern of legislators of course.We enact a law and then the first thing someimaginative lawyer comes up with an argument ofhow this some how offends our constitution . Well,our research, our background has been quiteextensive in this respect and we are of the viewthat the proposals that we are putting forward willwithstand that constitutional challenge.

I would note that there has been a decision withrespect to power walls in Saskatchewan I believe,which initially the trial judge found the power wallban containing their legislation was notconstitutional. That decision was appealed beforea superior court judge and we anticipate a decisionin the very near future on that and we’re quiteconfident that that decision will be reversed andthe legislation will stand. I know in terms of otherpresenters our, if I can call him this, our legalexpert Robert Cunningham from the national officeof the Canadian Cancer Society will be presentingI believe for this panel at its next session and we’dinvite you to address any questions you may havein terms of constitutionality and where that wholepiece is across the gambit with him. Simply to sayfrom our perspective we feel that the legislationwould survive that test.

The benefits of a ban in pharmacies obviously willeliminate the conflicting messages, fewer queuesfor those people who are recently off cigarettes.It’s certainly in support of the comprehensivetobacco control efforts that we suggested and itwill eliminate the ethical dilemma the pharmacistsfind themselves in. The economic impact ofpharmacy sales, removing sales from pharmacies. . . here was an Ontario study done in 1992 when56 pharmacies had tobacco sales removed fromthem, 56 per cent of those pharmacies had eitherno loss or an increase in sales, 20 of the 56 hadmarginal or moderate losses and of those 20 allrecouped their losses by the end of two years time.After a complete ban of pharmacies in Ontario, 50

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pharmacies apparently did close, 120 new onesopened in their place.

The second portion of this recommendation No. 1is banning in premises owned and operated by theLegislative Assembly, the government of thisprovince or by any municipality. We believe thatrestricting the sale of tobacco in governmentowned and run facilities is the best way to lead byexample. We also further recommend banning inthe premises of a school or other educationalfacilities. In this we would include, of course, post-secondary educational facilities at UPEI andHolland College. I know there is a tobacco vendingmachine at the Wave at UPEI and I’m not surewhere else on campus you may be able topurchase cigarettes. But we would propose thatthey be removed from there as well.

Finally, from athletic and recreational facilities thatwe want to be supporting a policy of healthy livingand healthy life styles in our youth in sport and inother ways, it only makes sense that cigarettesales not be there. In terms of youth smoking,banning tobacco products where youth gather willsupport prevention and cessation work. Ourresearch, our number shows that 90 percent ofsmokers started before they were 19. Twenty and24 year olds have higher rates of smoking, 35percent compared with an overall population basisof 23 percent. The work of the Cancer Society andthe PTRA Group here on PEI have had a strongyouth focus and we would urge this committee andthe Legislature to keep that in focus as well.

Finally, on this first recommendation we wouldpropose the premises licensed to serve alcoholicbeverages, banning in premises licensed to servealcohol beverages for consumption on thosepremises. As the committee members are aware,the legislation as it is now is at many of theselicensed facilities now. Families, young people canattend up until certain hours of the day. You walkin the door and often times the first thing you willsee on your right hand side as you walk in the dooris the vending machine, the bar tender being farand away across the room. If there is any issueabout policing that, about teenagers coming inand dropping their money into the machine and itnot being stopped. I just don’t think it’s reasonableto expect that to be policed. Aside from the factthat we believe obviously that smoking and puttingit out there in the normalized way that it has beento date continues to send the wrong message and

removing it would remove that.

With that, I’ll pass over to Dawn. If you would pickup Dawn where I left off.

Dawn Binns: A second recommendation is theintroduction of legislation to ban product displaysand signage from being visible in all retail outlets.We’ve heard a fair bit of discussion and I, too, waspleased to hear a convenience store person speakto that and the impact that may have. What doesthis look like? What are we talking about? Some ofyou I think have probably in the last week noticedretail displays a little more than you may havebefore. But my intention was to try and find apicture to give you an idea of what we’re talkingabout. Power walls is what we refer these too andthey may be small, they may be large. Essentially,they’re a bright colourful display of cigarettepackages located behind the service counter thatshows several brands in columns and rows. Thisdoes have an impact on consumption and weknow that.

Just to give you an idea, adv