SONJA LANE · A - Letter of resignation from Doug McCarron 413 B - Copy of a check for $25,000 from Doug 413 McCarron to Mike McCarron dated 12/19/12 C - A letter from Mike Draper

UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS

AND JOINERS OF AMERICA

In the Matter of: ) ) MICHAEL V. DRAPER, ) UBC District Vice President, ) Western District, ) ) Against )Charges: )UBC Constitution, MIKE MCCARRON, a member of the )Secs. 51(A),(4), United Brotherhood of )(6), and (12) Carpenters and Joiners of ) America, at all relevant times. ) ________________________________)

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

BEFORE: FRANK SPENCER, COMMITTEE CHAIR

6801 PLACID STREET LAS VEGAS, NEVADA

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2013 12:00 P.M. - 5:57 P.M.

REPORTED BY: SONJA LANE C.S.R. NO. 13150

California Deposition Reporters Page: 398

APPEARANCES

CHAIRMAN: UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA 14 Kings Highway, West Haddonfield, New Jersey 08033 (856) 428-1650 BY: FRANK SPENCER, Eastern District Vice-President

TRIAL COMMITTEE: UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA 5799 Yonge Street Suite 807 Toronto, Ontario, Canada M2M 3V3 (416) 225-8885 BY: JAMES E. SMITH, Vice-President Canada

UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS AND JOINERS OF AMERICA 1701 Library Boulevard Suite D Greenwood, Indiana 46142 (317) 300-8964 BY: DAVID C. THARP, Vice-President Midwestern District

FOR THE CHARGING UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS PARTY: AND JOINERS OF AMERICA 6801 Placid Street Las Vegas, Nevada 89119 (541) 388-2342 BY: MICHAEL V. DRAPER, Vice-President Western District


APPEARANCES CONTINUED

FOR THE CHARGING UNITED BROTHERHOOD OF CARPENTERS PARTY: AND JOINERS OF AMERICA 101 Constitution Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20001 (360) 576-8794 BY: R. PHIL NEWKIRK, Chief of Staff

FOR THE ACCUSED: CARPENTERS LOCAL 409 14125 LaGloria Street La Mirada, California 90638 BY: INDIA GRIFFIN, Union Member

SOUTHWEST REGIONAL COUNCIL OF CARPENTERS 533 S. Fremont Avenue 10th Floor Los Angeles, California 90071 BY: MIKE MCCARRON, Union Member

ALSO PRESENT: ROBERT J. LAUFENBERG

amygorton


INDEX OF WITNESS

WITNESSES FOR THE ACCUSED PARTY:

DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS

WAYNE CATALANO 495 503 528 530

BENJAMIN RODRIGUEZ 534 550 567, 571 570

(Pages 432-442, 452-453, and 489-493 were removed and

bound separately pursuant to attorney-client privilege

and confidentiality.)

EXHIBITS

ACCUSED EXHIBIT NO. MARKED

A - Letter of resignation from Doug McCarron 413

B - Copy of a check for $25,000 from Doug 413 McCarron to Mike McCarron dated 12/19/12

C - A letter from Mike Draper to Mike 413 McCarron in Re artwork dated 6/20/13

D - Binder of exhibits 404

UNION'S EXHIBIT NO. MARKED

70 - Letter from Doug Banes to all members of 513 local unions affiliated with SRCC dated 9/11/13 Re Notice of Supervision Hearing


1 LAS VEGAS, NEVADA, WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2013

2 12:00 P.M.

3 -O0O-

4

5 THE CHAIRMAN: On the record.

6 All right. The reconvened Wednesday session.

7 MR. MCCARRON: Mr. Chairman, if I could, before

8 we get started, do we happen to have -- it was a very

9 short transcript this morning. Do we happen to have that

10 available for the court reporter to read back?

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Do you have that?

12 THE REPORTER: She's right here. I'll get her.

13 (Discussion held off the record.)

14 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the record. Just a

15 housekeeping issue. I guess I misspoke this morning. I

16 was asked if we could have cell phones upstairs. I said

17 it was fine with me. Apparently it's a house rule, not

18 our rule, that they're downstairs. So the rule is the

19 rule; it applies to us as well. Okay.

20 MS. GRIFFIN: That's not a problem.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: I think that's it. We think

22 we've worked out the issue of the dailies. Sonja tells

23 me that we can have the mornings by 6:00 p.m. in a rough

24 draft form, which means it hasn't been proofread. The

25 afternoon session by 10:00 p.m. in the same fashion. So


1 hopefully that's resolved today.

2 And could you just read back the couple of

3 minutes we had this morning for everybody's review?

4 (Whereupon the morning transcript was read.)

5 MR. MCCARRON: Back on the record?

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Did you have a question about

7 this morning, Brother Draper?

8 MR. DRAPER: Not at this time.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: We're on the record, Sonja? I

10 think we're okay for this afternoon and this evening's

11 schedule to get the dailies. We'll be checking -- I

12 believe we have Sonja's cell phone number now. I think

13 Bob has it; correct?

14 THE REPORTER: No, but I'll give it to him.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll be checking through the

16 course of the evening to make sure everybody got it.

17 Okay?

18 Mike, do you have -- Mike McCarron has my cell

19 phone number if he has any problems.

20 MR. LAUFENBERG: You have mine.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: It doesn't matter when you call.

22 I'm still on East Coast time. So I'm up.

23 If we covered everything, let's begin.

24 MS. GRIFFIN: Just one point of housekeeping,

25 for the record. This morning I called Brother Spencer


1 and asked if we could get a copy of the dailies because

2 we didn't receive them. So Mr. McCarron came down here

3 based on that request.

4 And as a follow-up, I texted Bob --

5 MR. LAUFENBERG: Laufenberg.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: -- Laufenberg, and asked -- with

7 the names of our witnesses. I tried to put them in

8 order; however, I can't promise, depending on time

9 constraints, whether or not that would be the order that

10 we follow. And I also said we may not call all those

11 witnesses.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: And we got your text, and,

13 slash, e-mail. We forwarded it on to Brother Draper, the

14 witness list, after we reviewed it. And I think we're

15 all prepared to go, so we should be good to go.

16 MS. GRIFFIN: Great.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So, Ms. Griffin, if you'd

18 like to begin.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: At this time, we would like to

20 present Mike McCarron's case-in-chief. We will go

21 through the documents that support Mike McCarron's

22 case-in-chief and point out the relevant sections to the

23 trial panel. I know we have a lot of documents. We

24 wanted to include the entire documents so the trial

25 committee would be able to see what we were referring to.


1 However, we will direct you to the appropriate

2 pages where the pertinent information appears. I will be

3 referring to page numbers in the lower right corner. We

4 weren't sure how the documents were going to be marked or

5 categorized so each exhibit is separated by a blue sheet

6 of paper. There is an exhibit list at the front

7 indicating the title and page number of the documents.

8 Once we have gone through our documents, we will present

9 the testimony of nine witnesses.

10 Mr. McCarron is well-known throughout the

11 Brotherhood. Union members, staff, and contractors that

12 know him are shocked about what is occurring here today.

13 There are many whispers and nervous looks as members and

14 longtime colleagues --

15 MR. DRAPER: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, could we

16 slow down a little bit?

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, I will.

18 As one member said it best, this a personal

19 issue that has bled into the Brotherhood. Everyone who

20 knows Mike McCarron understands that the charges levied

21 against him are outrageous. The outrageousness almost

22 borders comical, except for the fact that this is an

23 attempt to destroy the life and reputation of a good man.

24 Is that what this Brotherhood is about?

25 The charges against Mike McCarron did not come


1 about in a vacuum. There are outside sources at work in

2 the Brotherhood. And a family has also been torn apart

3 in this process.

4 The Regional Council is one of the largest

5 councils in the Brotherhood. It has over 200 million in

6 assets and 65,000 members across six states.

7 In 2012, Mike and his team successfully

8 negotiated a $6.25 per hour increase for Southern

9 California carpenters, which will be good through 2016.

10 This amount is unprecedented.

11 Now we're going to get into the meat of Mike's

12 case-in-chief. For over ten years, the fair market value

13 of the leases for the Regional Council have been

14 determined by the International Director of Real Estate.

15 It has been a longstanding practice between the

16 Council and the Fund to enter into five- to ten-year

17 lease agreements without appraisals. The first time the

18 issue of appraisals was raised was at the March 16th,

19 2012, board of trustee meeting for the Training Fund. An

20 auditor for the Training Fund, Bernard Kotkin, reported

21 to the Fund that the building leases and appraisals

22 should be updated. Other carpenters Training Funds had

23 been or were being audited by the Department of Labor.

24 This happened in 2011 and 2012 to assure compliance with

25 ERISA.


1 The reason for the audit was that many Training

2 Funds across the nation and across different trades were

3 not operating within the standards enunciated in ERISA.

4 The Training Fund sought to get a start on identifying

5 potential ERISA deficiencies. This was a proactive step.

6 The Regional Council had appraisals performed

7 on approximately 30 properties. Roughly 17 or 18 of the

8 appraisals were related to the Training Fund. Of these

9 17 or 18 properties, 8 appraised at having above-market

10 rent. Those are the 8 properties at issue in the charges

11 against Mike McCarron.

12 The reason for the above-market rents was the

13 recession of late 2000, which caused property values to

14 plummet nationwide. When the property appraisals were

15 completed in late 2012 to early 2013, the overpayments

16 were determined by an asset management company named

17 Strategic Property Managers, and an interest value was

18 assigned to the rent overages.

19 Strategic Property Managers sent a letter to

20 the Regional Council dated May 21st, 2013, identifying

21 the amount of -- I'm sorry, identifying the amount the

22 Regional Council owed to the Fund. On or about May 31st,

23 2013, Mike McCarron and President Hal Jensen executed a

24 check in amount of $4.78 million to the Fund. As soon as

25 the exact amount was provided to the Council a check was


1 cut to the Fund.

2 This was money owed and paid, like any other

3 bill. The Executive Committee moved, seconded, and

4 carried to authorize the repayment of the 4.7 million to

5 the Fund.

6 The money that was repaid from the Regional

7 Council to the Fund was sitting in the Regional Council's

8 general fund earning interest. This was a shift of money

9 from one account to another. It would have been earning

10 interest whether it was cash from the Regional Council's

11 general fund or in the Training Fund's general fund.

12 The charges then discuss a $43 million loss

13 during the period of 2009 and 2010 at the Regional

14 Council. These losses were the direct result in the

15 decline in the money received due to the steep drop of

16 number of carpenter hours reported.

17 For each carpenter hour reported, there is a

18 dollar amount contributed, which is calculated based on

19 the subject's collective bargaining agreements. The

20 amounts per hour ends up in the general fund of the

21 Regional Council.

22 The fees and agency dues decreased, as

23 reflected in the LM-2s based on unprecedented drop in

24 hours. We will go through these later on. The

25 significant loss in carpenter hours was due to the great


1 recession. During this time, the Regional Council was

2 building a training center in Albuquerque, another state

3 in need, which had been previously merged into the

4 Regional Council by the International.

5 At approximately the same time of completion of

6 a roughly 25- to $30 million Albuquerque Training Center

7 in 2010, which the Regional Council funded entirely, the

8 International also merged the state of Colorado into the

9 Council.

10 Colorado was in dire economic need, having been

11 neglected by the Kansas City Regional Council, and

12 required a substantial amount of financial investment and

13 personnel resources.

14 Colorado was a financial burden placed on the

15 Regional Council. Even so, the Regional Council sought

16 to assure the International goals and objectives were

17 reached for these regions.

18 During the good economic times, the Regional

19 Council effectively managed their resources. And this

20 allowed them to sustain all building programs and

21 ventures during the lean economic times. The Regional

22 Council had cash and investments on hand of over $1

23 million, which it allowed -- which allowed it to

24 sustain -- I'm sorry, $100 million, which allowed it to

25 sustain its operating levels.


1 At one point in 2009, the Regional Council had

2 $151 million in cash investments. From 2008 through

3 2012, Mike McCarron's base salaries stayed the same. His

4 base salary is $10,466 biweekly or $130 an hour, which

5 comes out to approximately 273,000 a year.

6 Mike's salaries, as indicated in the LM-2 filed

7 with the Department of Labor, may appear to fluctuate.

8 There are two reasons for this; his yearly expenses and

9 his vacation hours.

10 Mike's yearly expenses include a 2008 Suburban,

11 airfare, hotel and travel expenses. Because Mike has a

12 large geographic area to cover, this area includes

13 Southern California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah,

14 Colorado, and West Texas.

15 In his capacity as EST, he incurred expenses in

16 connection with contract negotiations and other Regional

17 Council business. Mike would give his monthly expenses

18 to his Chief of Staff, Justin Weidner, who would fill out

19 these expense reports and deliver these to the accounting

20 department.

21 Interestingly enough, two members of the

22 Regional Council Executive Board had higher yearly

23 expenses than Mike did. These Executive Board members

24 are Randy Thornhill and Hal Jensen. Mike's yearly

25 expenses ranged from 17,000 to 23,000. Thornhill and


1 Jensen's expenses have been upwards of 30,000 a year.

2 Next let's look at vacation pay. California

3 Labor Code -- under California Labor Code, vacation pay

4 is classified as wages earned. At the end of the year,

5 because Mike had accrued excess vacation hours, he

6 received a vacation payoff. This is a Council-wide

7 practice and is an allowed procedure according to the

8 California Department of Industrial Relations Division of

9 Labor Standards and Enforcement.

10 The Southwest Regional Council Executive Board

11 moved, seconded and carried to give Mike a $10,000 net

12 bonus each year beginning in 2009 through 2012. Yet,

13 each year Mike declined this bonus. He declined it

14 because he felt it was inappropriate. The bonus was

15 authorized for a job well done.

16 So if Mike has gained nothing financially, the

17 Regional Council is financially sound, and the lease

18 agreements have been conducted in the same manner for the

19 last 20 to 30 years, well, why are we sitting here today?

20 Unfortunately, this is due to a personal dispute between

21 two brother. And it's bled into the Brotherhood.

22 Mike and Doug had a falling out in December of

23 2011. The fallout was significant. It was significant

24 enough for Doug McCarron to tender his resignation as an

25 officer and delegate of Local 1506. We're going to


1 distribute to you Doug's resignation letter.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Bob, could you assist Mike and

3 Ms. Griffin with the handouts, please.

4 MS. GRIFFIN: In addition -- I just handed out

5 a check dated December 19th of 2011, in which Doug sought

6 to buy back a classic car that Mike was keeping for him.

7 I would like to have these documents admitted into

8 evidence.

9 The brothers came to a tentative truce a few

10 weeks later, and Doug continued on as an officer. Mike

11 did not accept his resignation, but their relationship

12 remained broken. On May 21st --

13 MR. DRAPER: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I see a

14 check here. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, either her

15 explanation or the relevance of the check, to Mike

16 McCarron from Doug McCarron for a private check. I don't

17 understand what that has to do with anything.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: We're going to let her try to

19 get to it.

20 MR. DRAPER: Okay.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Just let her. Thank you,

22 Mr. Draper.

23 MS. GRIFFIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

24 On May 21st, 2013 their mother died and their

25 dispute -- and a dispute started over her trust and who


1 the trustees were over her trust.

2 The death of their mother was the straw that

3 broke the camel's back. The entire McCarron family was

4 rocked in ways that are unimaginable and embarrassing.

5 Doug leveled certain accusations against Mike, and he

6 made disparaging comments about Mike's family. The

7 back-and-forth family feud continued.

8 During this time of high emotions, Mike

9 presented certain information to John DeCarlo, counsel

10 for the Carpenters Union, on May 28th of 2013. It was

11 regarding insider stock trading.

12 MR. DRAPER: It was regarding what,

13 Mr. Chairman? I didn't hear it.

14 MS. GRIFFIN: Insider stock trading.

15 Mike came across this information while getting

16 his mother's estate in order. On or about May 29th or

17 May 30th, John DeCarlo told Mike McCarron that if he did

18 not back down, his brother Doug was going to go after him

19 for the lease agreements.

20 On June 20th of 2013, Mike Draper sent a

21 correspondence to Mike McCarron and a piece of UBC

22 artwork. Again, this was on June 20th of 2013. The

23 inference can be drawn that Mike Draper was unaware of

24 the plot brewing against Mike McCarron. And Brother

25 Draper regarding the McCarron -- and Brother Draper


1 regarded Mike McCarron highly enough to provide him with

2 a large expensive stained glass UBC emblem.

3 I would like to have this document admitted

4 into evidence.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Bobby, let's have the court

6 reporter number each of these first and then we can hand

7 them out, or can you hand them out. Make sure she's got

8 a copy. Okay.

9 So, Sonja, let's -- this will be the first one.

10 MS. GRIFFIN: Yeah, I agree.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: So the first one, Sonja, that we

12 already -- Doug McCarron's letter of resignation will be

13 Exhibit 1. This will be Exhibit 2.

14 I'm sorry. Thank you.

15 MR. DRAPER: What are we calling them,

16 Mr. Chairman?

17 THE CHAIRMAN: The resignation letter is

18 Exhibit 1 for the defense. The check is Exhibit 2. And

19 the letter to Mike McCarron from Mike Draper, re the

20 artwork, is Exhibit 3.

21 MR. LAUFENBERG: I'll go get copies made of

22 these exhibits to give to the court reporter.

23 Are there other things you're going to need to

24 make copies of?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: I believe that's all, that we've


1 submitted. Thank you.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Don't we have one more of the

3 artwork? Dave doesn't have a copy.

4 MS. GRIFFIN: Would you like us to wait until

5 the copies get back?

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I'll share with Dave. You can

7 continue, Ms. Griffin, please.

8 MS. GRIFFIN: Since we had an interruption,

9 I'll go back up a paragraph.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: The inference can be drawn that

12 Mike Draper was unaware of the plot brewing against Mike

13 McCarron and that Brother Draper regarded Mike McCarron

14 highly enough to provide him with a large expensive

15 stained glass UBC emblem. Therefore, Draper is nothing

16 more than a signatory at the directive of Doug McCarron

17 and Carpenters General Council on these fabricated

18 charges.

19 The charging document is dated June 28th, 2012.

20 Mike received the charges on July 1st, 2013 -- I'm sorry,

21 I misstated.

22 The charging document is dated June 28th of

23 2013, Mike received the charges on July 1st of 2013. Due

24 to the disorganization of the charges, the vagueness of

25 the factual allegations, and inclusion of false


1 information, and the omission of approximate dates and

2 witnesses, and the cherry-picking of statutory authority,

3 it is Mike McCarron's position that the charges are not

4 pled with the specificity required to launch an adequate

5 defense.

6 Without waiving this argument, Mike McCarron

7 will proceed by addressing the allegations that have been

8 cobbled together. Much of the legal references asserted

9 in the charges are based on ERISA. Under ERISA, the

10 Training Fund has a certain duty it must meet to protect

11 the members' money which fund the JATC activities.

12 The Training Fund is comprised of a director,

13 executive administrator, staff, and 14 trustees, one of

14 whom is Doug McCarron, the co-chairman for the labor

15 side.

16 According to the document prepared by General

17 Council for the Training Fund,

18

19 (lines 18,19,20 & 21 redacted)

20

21

22 Pages 163 to 165 of our supporting documents

23 support this assertion. The assertion in the charges is

24 that Mike, as the trustee, should have been -- sought

25 outside appraisals. As a trustee to the JATC, he did not


1 possess this authority or this power. And he's one of 14

2 trustees. This responsibility falls on the director and

3 fund administrator.

4 Under ERISA, the fund director and its

5 executive administrator are considered fiduciaries to the

6 plan and have the same fiduciary responsibility to the

7 fund that the trustees have.

8 The charges state that these lease agreements

9 are illegal under federal law. This is a

10 mischaracterization of the law. The Regional Council and

11 the Training Fund are allowed to enter into lease

12 agreements.

13 The lease agreements should be negotiated at

14 arm's length. One way to do this is to obtain appraisal

15 of the property, to obtain a fair market value. In the

16 past, appraisals have not been performed on the leases

17 between the Regional Council and the Training Fund. In

18 addition, the lease agreements were for periods of five

19 to ten years. The fair market value for the last ten

20 years or so was determined by Randy Sowell.

21 The main problem here is the longstanding

22 practice of entering into lengthy lease terms, which are

23 adjusted for inflation every year, based on the Consumer

24 Price Index.

25 MR. NEWKIRK: I'm sorry. Mr. Chairman, could


1 you repeat what Randy Sowell's responsibility was?

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Hang on one sec.

3 Can you read that back, please.

4 (Record read.)

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Is that what you were looking --

6 MR. NEWKIRK: I was wondering about Randy

7 Sowell's responsibilities that she stated. If you can go

8 back a little more.

9 (Record was read.)

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

11 MR. NEWKIRK: Thank you.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: You may continue, Ms. Griffin.

13 MS. GRIFFIN: For the record, I said "practice"

14 not "process."

15 For the eight properties discussed in the

16 charging document, the fair market value dropped due to

17 the great recess and the big downturn in the economy.

18 This case is a case of oversight and sloppiness due to

19 the longstanding policy of the Fund and the Regional

20 Council. There is no malicious intent here. We're

21 dealing with carpenters who have risen through the ranks.

22 They are not always up to speed on the law and ERISA,

23 which is in conflict with the federal statutes.

24 This is so complex, that the attorneys for the

25 Regional Council and the Training Fund couldn't even


1 figure it out.

2 Mike McCarron, in his capacity as EST over the

3 Regional Council, does not owe a fiduciary duty to the

4 Training Fund. His fiduciary duty is owed to the

5 Regional Council. In fact, he is not subject to ERISA

6 rules for the Training Fund in his capacity as an officer

7 to the Regional Council.

8 In fact, there is an exemption to ERISA rules

9 that the EST falls within, it is ERISA 408(b)(2), and is

10 identified in the Griffin report.

11 This is where General Council and Randy Sowell,

12 who have worked with ERISA-funded clients in the past,

13 dropped the ball. As advisor to the Regional Council,

14 they should have been aware of this exemption.

15 The assertion that Mike McCarron has an obvious

16 conflict of interest is false. Under the Regional

17 Council's bylaws and trade rules, Section 11 states, "The

18 responsibility for the Regional Council assets and

19 property lie with the trustees of Regional Council. It

20 is the duty of the trustees of the Regional Council to

21 oversee and approve the dealings of the Regional Council

22 officers, which include the lease agreements."

23 Which is what occurred as evidenced by Regional

24 Council trustee reportings.

25 This case boils down to a very simple issue,


1 lease agreements executed between the Regional Council

2 and the Training Fund. We're going to take a look at the

3 properties at issue.

4 The first property, the Santa Ana Training

5 Center. The lease term was August 14th of 1990 to August

6 13th of 2005, with one five-year option. When the option

7 expired, the lease continued month to month. Mike

8 McCarron did not sign this lease. Doug McCarron signed

9 as trustee and co-chair to the Fund.

10 This lease was entered into with Local 1815,

11 which was merged into the Regional Council in 1991. The

12 lease should have been updated then. Because Doug signed

13 the lease as a trustee of the Fund and was also the EST,

14 Doug signed -- because Doug signed the lease and as

15 trustee of the fund, and was also EST of the Regional

16 Council.

17 Number two, the Ontario Training Center. The

18 trust lease was from December 1st, 2006 to November 30th,

19 2011. The fair market value was determined by Randy

20 Sowell. The lease expired and continues month to month.

21 Neither the Council nor the Fund renegotiated the lease.

22 While this lease was signed by Mike, there was

23 an amendment to the lease. The amendment shows the

24 sloppiness at work in the lease agreements between the

25 Fund and the Regional Council. The amendment to this


1 lease shows the term as beginning on January 1st of 2010

2 and ending on November 30th of 2009. This amendment was

3 signed and initialed by Justin Weidner on Mike's staff.

4 If Mike is a micro-manager, as Justin

5 testified, then Mike would have signed this amendment,

6 not Justin, and the term would have been correct.

7 The third property, San Diego, referred to as

8 Miralani. Lease term was September of 2003 through

9 January 1st of 2006. There was a first amendment to the

10 lease July 1st of 2002. And this lease expired on June

11 30th, 2012, then continued month-to-month basis. The

12 Miralani lease was not signed by Mike.

13 Property four, the Tucson Training Center. The

14 lease term was March 1st of 2004 to February 28th of

15 2014. The fair market value was determined by Randy

16 Sowell, the lease was signed by Mike.

17 Property number five, Sylmar Training Center.

18 The lease term was from January 1st of 2006 to December

19 31st of 2015, and the fair market value was determined by

20 Randy Sowell. The lease was signed by Mike McCarron.

21 The sixth property, Whittier. The lease term

22 was February 1st of 2008 through January 31st, 2013. It

23 was signed by Justin Weidner.

24 Again, if Mike was a micro-manager, that Justin

25 pointed him out to be, Justin would not have been allowed


1 to sign that lease. The fair market value was determined

2 by Randy Sowell.

3 Number seven, Camarillo Training Center. The

4 lease term was October 1st of 1990 to September 30th of

5 2005. The lease expired and continued month to month.

6 Neither the Regional Council nor the Training Fund sought

7 to renegotiate. This lease was signed by the former EST

8 of the Gold Coast Regional Council.

9 The last property in question, number eight,

10 the Jordan, Utah property. The lease term was January

11 1st of 2005 to December 31st of 2014. The fair market

12 value was determined by Randy Sowell, and the lease was

13 signed by Mike McCarron.

14 In total, the Training Fund leases

15 approximately 17 properties from the Regional Council and

16 its affiliated locals. During 2012 and 2013, the fair

17 market value for these properties were determined by

18 appraisers from CBRE and Cushman & Wakefield. The

19 appraisals obtained only showed fair market value

20 starting in 2008. Most of the leases were in existence

21 prior to 2008. There was no information about the fair

22 market value of the leases that had expired or any of the

23 new leases that were entered into.

24 The rent amounts and terms for these leases

25 were determined by the International Director of Real


1 Estate, Randy Sowell. It is Mike's understanding that

2 Randy would call up commercial brokers and figure out

3 area comps. Randy had the experience and competency

4 level to determine the fair market value.

5 Arguably, the leases were at fair market value

6 prior to 2008. The lease agreements would have continued

7 on or very close to the fair market value but for the

8 economy falling off of a cliff and causing the values to

9 decline across the state and across the nation.

10 So Mr. Draper's assertion that Mike was

11 determining rent values in 2004, 2005 and 2006 to gain an

12 alleged benefit in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 makes no

13 sense. The rental amount for the eight lease agreements

14 had declined due to the economic downturn of the late

15 2000s.

16 According to Peter Aylward, fair market value

17 rent spreadsheet, pages 185 to 190, the fair market rents

18 amount vary considerably from year to year. Some were

19 over market values, while others were under market value

20 depending on the year at issue and location of the

21 property.

22 Mike McCarron is a carpenter and an EST of the

23 Regional Council. His duties are wide-ranging, including

24 attending local meetings, negotiating Master Labor

25 Agreements, signing on contractors, overseeing the


1 day-to-day operations of a $244 million Council with

2 65,000 members across six states.

3 In his capacity as EST, he had advisors, he had

4 General Council providing him with financial and legal

5 advice. Mike McCarron does not possess the requisite

6 understanding of ERISA rules and regulations as they

7 pertain to lease agreements between the Council and the

8 Fund. These are highly technical rules which Mike, as an

9 EST, would have to rely on the advice of the Regional

10 Council's attorney, who also represents the Training

11 Fund.

12 The Regional Council and the Training Fund's

13 attorneys should have been ensuring that all ERISA

14 requirements were met. They were not doing this.

15 Instead, they allowed this longstanding practice to

16 continue. Meaning that they had allowed long duration

17 leases with no appraisals routinely performed to

18 continue. The rent amounts became overhauled when the

19 economy tanked causing property values to decline. Yet,

20 the leases, carried on due to the lengthy terms, are

21 continued on a month-to-month basis with no

22 renegotiations.

23 This amounts to sloppiness on the part of

24 General Council and the Training Fund. To hold Mike

25 McCarron solely responsible is grossly unfair.


1 At this time we would like to go through Mike's

2 documentary evidence. Mike McCarron has about 60

3 exhibits. I know this looks like a lot, but we included

4 the entire documents, memorandums, e-mails, letters, and

5 attachments so that the trial panel can see and

6 understand what the document is. However, we will only

7 be referring to certain pages within each exhibit.

8 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman?

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, Brother Draper.

10 MR. DRAPER: I have a question that maybe you

11 could pose to counsel over there.

12 Are you going to introduce -- is she going to

13 introduce these documents through witnesses or is this

14 some kind of a ploy to get Mike's testimony on the record

15 through her?

16 I mean, as you can see, our testimony was

17 through witnesses that could verify the documentation.

18 Is she going to produce witnesses that can verify this

19 documentation, that are experts on the documentation? Or

20 she's just going to make an assertion that these are

21 documents taken for face value?

22 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a fair question, Brother

23 Draper, but I'm going to let Ms. Griffin finish her

24 opening statement.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: And Mr. Chairman, I can address


1 that right now?

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay.

3 MS. GRIFFIN: We were not informed of the

4 requirement, and there's nothing in the Constitution

5 stating that a witness is required to submit a document.

6 On July 7th of 2013, Mike sent a letter to

7 Brother Silins -- Silins asking what the process was for

8 introducing documents in trial.

9 Brother Silins referred Mike McCarron to UBC

10 Section 52(J). Section 52(J) does not say anything about

11 documents. So we assumed we could just identify what the

12 document is, reference the relevant information in it.

13 I'm not an attorney. I don't understand all

14 the rules. I was under the impression we could submit

15 evidence in support of Mike's case. It's my

16 understanding that all relevant information should be

17 considered. This is only fair.

18 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, again, I want to

19 interrupt. Mr. Chairman, that's about the 15th time I

20 heard her say she's not an attorney.


22 MR. DRAPER: But, again, the record shows that

23 there's no attorneys in this room, including myself or

24 Mr. Newkirk. So we know you're not an attorney, go on

25 with it.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Noted. Go ahead.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: Let's also let the record show

3 that Mr. Draper has conducted many of these types of

4 trials. I have not. It is my first.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you going to start with some

6 documents, Ms. Griffin?

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes. If you could open your

8 books.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: If you could pass those out.

10 Before we start going through these, anybody

11 need a five-minute bathroom break? You could?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes.

13 MR. DRAPER: I haven't seen the documents.

14 Could we just go off the record for just a second,

15 Mr. Chairman?


17 Give everybody a minute to peruse. Let's go

18 off the record.

19 (Pause in proceedings.)

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Back on the record.

21 Ms. Griffin, it looks like we've got a

22 challenge to Brother Draper's two volumes here, at least

23 in size. So if we're going to flow this afternoon, we're

24 going to continue -- we're going to go a little later.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: That's fine. I believe, if I'm


1 uninterrupted, I can get through this in less than two

2 hours.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: If we're in a flow or if we have

4 witnesses on, we're going to finish each piece. Okay.

5 So please begin.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm going to reference by page

7 number.


9 MS. GRIFFIN: Each exhibit is separated by the

10 blue page. The page numbers are consecutive. The first

11 exhibit is 14(D) charges. Pages 1 through 29 -- let's

12 refer to page 21.

13 Is everybody there?

14 THE CHAIRMAN: There's a notation on the

15 bottom.

16 MR. DRAPER: I see it.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. And a page number.

18 MR. DRAPER: Go ahead.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: This is a check sent to the Fund

20 for the overpayments dated the same day as the letter

21 requesting the payment.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, before you go any

23 further, hold up one second. We didn't enter this entire

24 packet and exhibit. Okay?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, thank you.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: There are no numbers of how many

2 are here. Is there an index?

3 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, the index will tell you.

4 And I'm sorry about that. We spent over $900 on these

5 copies.

6 MR. THARP: We should probably go back and

7 renumber the first three exhibits as Exhibit A, B, and C.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: A, B, and C. And then we can

9 use the numbers here.

10 MR. DRAPER: So we don't mess up.

11 Mr. Chairman, I supplied counsel with two

12 copies of exhibits for both Mr. McCarron and his

13 representative. They supplied us one. Is there another

14 one available?

15 MS. GRIFFIN: There's not. Again, we spent

16 over $900.

17 MR. DRAPER: I don't care about the cost,

18 Mr. Chairman.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: Well, it's obvious he doesn't

20 care about the cost because his didn't come out of his

21 pocket, it came out of the Brotherhood's pocket.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, it's okay. Just

23 let me get to where we need to go.

24 MS. GRIFFIN: Thank you.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: We don't need to argue back and


1 forth.

2 If there is not another copy available, we'll

3 have one produced for you right away, Brother Draper.

4 MS. GRIFFIN: Would you like to take a break

5 while we have that produced?

6 MR. DRAPER: Nope, go ahead.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Nope. We're going to keep

8 moving.

9 And, Dave, how about if you and I work out of

10 the same book, if you don't mind.

11 And, Bobby, would you have somebody reproduce

12 that quickly? Actually, make a couple of copies. That

13 way --

14 MS. GRIFFIN: So page 21, it's a check. This

15 is the check that was sent to the Fund for reimbursement

16 of the overcharges.

17 MR. DRAPER: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. You said

18 "sent to the Fund"; is that correct?



21 MS. GRIFFIN: It's dated the same day as the

22 letter requesting payment.

23 Exhibit Number 2, pages 30 to 42, these are

24 correspondence between the UBC and Mike McCarron.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Let us get there, Ms. Griffin,


1 please.

2 MR. DRAPER: What page?

3 MS. GRIFFIN: 30 through 42. If I say a group

4 of pages, I'm not going to be referencing any specific

5 page.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. Please

7 continue.

8 MS. GRIFFIN: We want this admitted to show the

9 trial procedure. Exhibit Number 3 --

10 MR. DRAPER: Let me go through these,

11 Ms. Griffin.



14 MS. GRIFFIN: This is a letter dated --

15 THE CHAIRMAN: You didn't give us the

16 reference.

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit Number 3, the first page.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, got it.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: This a letter dated July 13 [sic]

20 of 2013, from DeCarlo & Shanley to Mike McCarron. This

21 letter demands that Mike McCarron pay $260,000 --

22 $260,525.32. This shows they're attempting to scare and

23 threaten Mike by claiming he owes $260,000.

24 Please refer to page 44. I'm going read the

25 first sentence. "As counsel to the Regional Council, we


1 believe you are obligated to reimburse it for the

2 interest owed for the period between January 1st of 2008

3 to June 30th of 2013, because you personally reviewed,

4 approved and signed the leases that resulted in the

5 overpayment by the Fund."

6 Now I'm going jump to the last sentence in the

7 paragraph. "The Regional Council must demand and seek

8 reimbursement for the interest in the amount of

9 $260,525.32." This is a threat.

10 Now, Exhibit Number 4.

11 MR. DRAPER: Hold it. Page 45, is that part of

12 Exhibit Number 3?

13 MS. GRIFFIN: Page number 45 is the beginning

14 of Exhibit Number 4.

15 (Whereupon pages 432 through 442 were removed

16 and bound separately pursuant to attorney-client

17 privilege and confidentiality.)

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


1 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. The next exhibit is

2 Exhibit 7. Exhibit 7 is the December 16th, 2011,

3 Southwest Training Fund Board of Trustee minutes, pages

4 92 through 94. Please turn to page 93. A little below

5 halfway through the page, number II A, "Auditor, Mr. John

6 DeCarlo requested approval to engage the services of

7 Bernard Kotkin to analyze the transactions of the

8 Training Fund." At this point, Mr. DeCarlo did not

9 reference or mention any need for appraisals.

10 Okay. Let's move on to Exhibit 8, which would

11 be page 95 through 107. We can jump right to page 102.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: You okay there, Mr. Draper?

13 MR. DRAPER: Yeah.


15 MS. GRIFFIN: I just want to point out the

16 year-end statement of cash flows shows a loss in 2010.

17 You can see that down at the bottom in the right-hand

18 side.

19 Okay. Please refer to page 104. I won't read

20 through these properties again, but I just want you to

21 note that it's in the minutes. That carries on to page

22 105.

23 Okay. Let's refer to Exhibit 9, pages 108

24 through 110. Let's turn to page 109. This is the

25 minutes of the Board of Trustees meeting, dated March


1 16th of 2012. About halfway down, number II A, "Auditor,

2 Mr. John DeCarlo stated that at the December 16th, 2011

3 Board of Trustees meeting, Bernard Kotkin was retained to

4 analyze transactions of the Training Fund. Bernard

5 Kotkin has reported that building leases and appraisals

6 should be updated."

7 This is the first time the Fund is made aware

8 it needs to update its leases.

9 The next exhibit is Exhibit 10, pages 111

10 through 158.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, I'm just going to

12 ask you again, for the record, so you're going to have

13 somebody testify to this. Right? I mean you're doing a

14 great job of presenting it. I don't want to misspeak

15 here. But you're saying things into the record, somebody

16 has to verify it at some point. Right? It's going to

17 be --

18 MR. MCCARRON: Chairman --

19 THE CHAIRMAN: I got it. It's fine. Yeah.

20 MS. GRIFFIN: Yeah.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: It's not -- Brother McCarron,

22 let me be clear, this is not in question. It's

23 Ms. Griffin's statements that are in question adding to.

24 Okay?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Would you like me to only read


1 this and not make any statements? I mean I can do that.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: What I -- I guess what I'm

3 trying say is, you can't testify alongside of it unless

4 it's something you can testify to.

5 MR. THARP: If I could add, the clear example

6 was when you said, "This is the first time" --

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Exactly.

8 MR. THARP: -- "that the board was..."

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Made aware.

10 Okay. So the document stands on its own.

11 There's no issue there. It's your commentary that isn't

12 evidence, unless you're sworn. Okay?

13 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay.

14 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, if I might.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: Yep.

16 MR. DRAPER: I concur wholeheartedly. And

17 unless they're going to take somebody on the stand that I

18 can cross-examine under oath, all she needs to do is

19 identify these documents. Because I don't have any

20 opportunity through this proceeding, as she's making all

21 her editorial comments, to cross-examine. She won't put

22 Mr. McCarron on the stand.

23 I'd be happy to put him up there if he wants to

24 verify these documents and be subject to

25 cross-examination, well, let's go through that process.


1 But, again, she's entering these documents,

2 they stand as they are here. We've invoked

3 attorney-client privilege, you've approved that. So I

4 mean we get through these without all of the editorial

5 comments.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Noted, Brother Draper. I think

7 that's what I was just -- I hope was clear. That's what

8 I was trying to say, Ms. Griffin.

9 It's the added comments. Unless you're

10 prepared to testify yourself or produce a witness, let

11 the documents stand. And you're welcome to introduce

12 more.

13 MS. GRIFFIN: I think I understand. But,

14 again, we were not informed of this requirement and

15 there's nothing in the Constitution stating that a

16 witness is required.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: No, no.

18 MS. GRIFFIN: I just -- you know --

19 MR. DRAPER: You're not a witness, ma'am.

20 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm saying there's nothing that

21 says a witness is required.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's work through the Chair,

23 both sides.

24 The documents are fine. They absolutely stand

25 as they are. It's just the side comment. And I think --


1 MS. GRIFFIN: So if I have a side comment, you

2 expect me to have a witness to substantiate my claim of

3 the side comment?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.

5 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay, okay.


7 MS. GRIFFIN: That helps me going through.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: I think Brother Tharp's comment

9 was right on target. It was your comment that this was

10 the first time. We don't know that's accurate. You're

11 not a trustee. So the document is the document.

12 MS. GRIFFIN: I understand, I believe. I will

13 try to adhere to that. Please let me know if you think

14 I'm going down the wrong road.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: No. We're all on the same page,

16 I think.


18 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry if I threw you off.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 10, pages 111 through

20 158. This is the United Brotherhood of Carpenters --

21 Southwest Carpenters Training Fund. It is a report -- it

22 is a report that was prepared by John Griffin, a

23 consultant. It was prepared for Ed Ripley, the director

24 of the Southwest Carpenters Training Fund.

25 I'm sorry. You're going to have to bear with


1 me. I'm going to take a little bit longer now. I lost

2 my train of thought a little bit.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: You want to take a five-minute

4 break?

5 MS. GRIFFIN: No. I think I'll get back in the

6 groove if I just keep going. Please refer to page 113,

7 Section I, Overview.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Got it.

9 MS. GRIFFIN: "In December of 2011, I was

10 contacted by Ed Ripley, the director of the Southwest

11 Carpenters Training Fund to conduct a 'friendly' audit of

12 the Southwest Carpenters Training Fund apprenticeship

13 system."

14 Now we can jump to page 114. In the middle of

15 the page, second paragraph, "Due to the economy, the

16 number of registered apprentices is considerably lower

17 than in previous years. Currently the number of active

18 apprentices is 5,771, which is about 41 percent of the

19 total number of apprentices three years ago."

20 Let's jump to page 132, about halfway down the

21 page, "Review of Possible ERISA audit Findings. Leases

22 and cost sharing arrangements between plans, unions, and

23 employers violates self-dealing rules if: Leases are

24 consummated by conflicted parties."

25 Second bullet point, "Leases are not at


1 arms-length."

2 There's recommendations. "Lease values should

3 be determined by independent appraisers. Leases should

4 be negotiated and signed by non conflicted persons.

5 Allocations of shared expenses should be analyzed and

6 documented by persons other than the parties in

7 interest."

8 Page 133. This explains what a fiduciary is

9 and trustees.

10 "Fiduciary: A person is a fiduciary 'to the

11 extent' that the person: (1), exercises any

12 discretionary authority, or control over the management

13 of the plan or the management or disposition of its

14 assets."

15 Jump to number 3. "Has any discretionary

16 authority or control over plan administration."

17 Minutes of Trustees. "Trustees of employee

18 benefit plans are fiduciaries. Generally, so are most

19 Administrators and Directors, by virtue of the positions

20 they hold with respect to the Fund and per provisions."

21 And then on page 134, up at the top, the

22 Griffin report references "ERISA 408(b)(2) permits the

23 following exemptions: Serving as a fiduciary in addition

24 to being an officer, employee, or representative of

25 management or labor."


1 And then at the very bottom, the last sentence,

2 "Many apprentice training funds are not operating in

3 compliance with ERISA or recognize they are subject to

4 ERISA."

5 Okay. Let's jump to 136. That would require a

6 narrative so I will skip it.

7 So Exhibit 11, Bates stamp page 159 through

8 162. These are minutes of the Board of Trustees for the

9 Southwest Carpenters Training Fund, dated June 15th of

10 2012. Let's go to page 160. About halfway down, Number

11 II A, "Mr. John DeCarlo stated that the Trust is

12 reviewing policies and procedures preparing for a

13 possible Department of Labor audit, since other training

14 funds have been audited recently."

15 "B. The director requested the Board of

16 Trustees to grant him the authority to recommend to the

17 Board renewals for leases and update appraisals or obtain

18 appraisals of all real estate owned by the Fund."

19 There was a motion. The motion was duly made,

20 seconded, and adopted unanimously to authorize the

21 director of the Southwest Carpenters Training Fund to

22 update appraisals or obtain new appraisals of all real

23 property owned by the Fund and to make recommendations to

24 the board regarding the possible renewal or revision of

25 leases between the Southwest Regional Council of


1 Carpenters and the Southwest Carpenters Training Fund.




5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


1 Exhibit 14, pages 170 to 181. Refer to page

2 175. This is an e-mail dated May 15th, 2013, with an

3 attached May 5th, 2013, rent study regarding five

4 properties owned by the Regional Council.

5 On page 175 at the top, the reference is

6 "Extraordinary Conditions and Hypothetical Assumptions."

7 The last sentence of number 1 says -- you know what, I'll

8 read the whole thing. Number 1, "Some of the Market Rent

9 conclusions are reported for retrospective points in

10 time, but Fulcrum only inspected the properties as of the

11 current date.

12 "Accordingly, it is an extraordinary assumption

13 that the property condition for those retrospective

14 periods is equivalent to the condition observed at the

15 time of inspection."

16 The next paragraph says, "The subject

17 properties each have interior warehouse improvements that

18 are used as part of the carpenter training programs,

19 including such items as overhead girders, plywood

20 subfloors over the concrete slab, et cetera. It is

21 assumed that these improvements are removed by the

22 landlord and that the properties are leased in a broom

23 swept condition."

24 Okay. Exhibit 15, pages 182 through 190. This

25 is a May 31st, 2013, letter from Peter Aylward regarding


1 rent overpayments. It's to Mike McCarron.

2 Let's go to page 185. This shows the fair

3 market value for the property the Regional Council

4 overpaid.

5 Page 186. You're going have to let me know.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, we're good.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: The amount -- the amount owed for

8 overpayment for 2008 was 2,000 -- 213,000 yearly. The

9 net assets were 219 million per the LM-2s, which are on

10 page 556.

11 Next we'll go to page 187. This page shows the

12 rent overpayments were 735,000 in 2009, with assets of

13 229 million, per the LM-2 on page 963.

14 Page 188, this shows the overpayment of $1

15 million in 2010 with net assets of $238 million per LM-2

16 page 570. Page 189 shows 1.3 million in overpayments in

17 2011 with assets of 236 million per the LM-2's on page

18 578. Page 190 shows 1 point -- 1.15 million in

19 overpayments for the year 2012. This LM-2 has not been

20 released yet so we don't have it.

21 Exhibit 16 is the Southwest Regional Council

22 Executive Committee minutes, page 191 to 193, dated June

23 19th, 2013, authorization to pay rent overages. Please

24 refer to --



1 MS. GRIFFIN: -- page 193.


3 MR. DRAPER: What was the date of this

4 communication?

5 THE CHAIRMAN: It's --

6 MS. GRIFFIN: This one?

7 MR. DRAPER: Yes.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: It's dated June 19th, 2013.

9 MR. DRAPER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

10 MS. GRIFFIN: Page 193.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: We're good.

12 MS. GRIFFIN: The second paragraph, "EST

13 McCarron recorded on an issue with the market value lease

14 amounts with the Training Fund and that some rent amounts

15 had to be reduced. He stated that because of this the

16 Training Fund would be reimbursed for some excess amounts

17 paid. It was moved, seconded, and carried to authorize

18 repayment in the amount of $4,736,970.52."

19 Exhibit 17, this is an accounting spreadsheet

20 for Mike McCarron's salary, pages 194 through 196. Page

21 194, Salary and Expense Allowance as of May 9th, 2011.

22 2008 to 2010 biweekly rate for Mike McCarron was

23 $10,466.88. 2008, 2010 hourly rate was $130.84. 2008,

24 2010 base salary was 272,138.85.

25 Page 196, this is a spreadsheet of Mike


1 McCarron's history of wage increases. From July 1st of

2 2008 through December 21st, 2012, the base salary

3 remained the same.

4 Exhibit 18, pages 197 through 201, these are

5 Mike McCarron earnings statements. On page 197, 2008

6 year-end pay stub reflected regular earnings of

7 $10,466.88, for a total of $264,020.25, and vacation

8 earnings of $10,466.88.

9 Page 198 is Mike McCarron's earnings statement

10 for year ending 2009. His regular rate was --

11 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, if I might.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper.

13 MR. DRAPER: Brevity of time, I see there is

14 reams of earning statements. I will stipulate he has

15 entered into the record all of these earning statements.

16 And could we get on with it, please.

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Part of the charges address the

18 fact that Mr. McCarron is fraudulently reverse

19 engineering the Training Fund to increase and profit in

20 his personal life. These go directly to the fact it's

21 not being done.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: It's your call, Ms. Griffin.

23 You can either stipulate --

24 MS. GRIFFIN: I would like to continue with

25 this.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Feel free.


3 Okay. Page 198, this is Mike McCarron year-end

4 pay stub for 2009. Earnings regular rate $10,466.88,

5 year-to-date $272,138.88, with vacation earnings of

6 $11,775.24.

7 Page 199, Mike McCarron's earnings for year

8 ending 2010, regular earnings rate $10,466.88,

9 year-to-date $272,138.88 with no vacation payout.

10 Page 200, Mike McCarron's 2011 year-end pay

11 stub, regular earnings of $10,466.88, year-to-date

12 $272,138.88 and with a vacation payout of $11,775.24.

13 Page 201, Mike McCarron's 2012 year-end

14 earnings, regular rate of $10,466.88, with a year-to-date

15 $272,138.88, with vacation payout of $13,083.60.

16 Exhibit 19. This is the Southwest Regional

17 Council Executive Committee minutes for December 21st of

18 2012. Please refer to page 204.

19 Second paragraph, "Executive Committee member

20 Pat McGinn made a motion to authorize a $10,000 year-end

21 bonus for EST McCarron. He noted that this motion has

22 been made and passed each of past four years since he

23 joined the Executive Committee. The motion was

24 unanimously approved. EST McCarron thanked the Executive

25 Committee members for their support but noted that as he


1 has every other year he would decline the bonus."

2 MR. NEWKIRK: What exhibit -- Mr. Chairman,

3 what exhibit and page is that under?

4 THE CHAIRMAN: It's page MMC 204. And was that

5 Exhibit 17.

6 Okay. Ms. Griffin.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 20 is Mike McCarron's

8 biweekly pay stub for 2008, pages 205 to 235 [sic].

9 Exhibit 21, is Mike McCarron's biweekly pay

10 stubs for 2009, pages 233 through 260.

11 Exhibit 22 is Mike McCarron's biweekly pay







18 MS. GRIFFIN: Can we go off the record for a

19 second?


21 (Discussion off the record.)

22 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm ready.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Where are we going, Ms. Griffin?

24 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. Exhibit 25, page 348 to

25 357.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Just give us a second to get

2 there --

3 MS. GRIFFIN: Yeah.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: -- with these new books.

5 Everybody good?

6 We're ready, Ms. Griffin. Thank you.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 25, page 348 through 357

8 is the Southwest Regional Council Trustees report from

9 April to June of 2008.

10 Please refer to page 348. I'm not going to say

11 this for each report. The second paragraph says, "We

12 find them to be correct with the proper amount of money

13 in the bank, receipts properly deposited, and expenses

14 properly authorized and ordinary and necessary to conduct

15 Council business." Signed by Trustee Hayden, Trustee

16 Langford, and Trustee Foster.

17 Page 349, please refer to the bottom. Please

18 refer to the bottom of 349, ending cash and investments

19 as of June 30th of 2008 are in the amount of

20 $121,033,195.

21 Please refer to page 356. This references

22 total assets for the current year and the prior year.

23 The current year is $188,511,843.70. The prior year,

24 $155,447,745.04.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, is this for June


1 '08, the current -- that would be the current year?

2 MS. GRIFFIN: 2008?

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Right.

4 MS. GRIFFIN: Correct.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: And I assume the Council was on

6 a fiscal year.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Yeah, we were. That's correct.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.

9 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 26, is the Southwest

10 Regional Council Trustee Report October to December of

11 2008, pages 358 through 369. Please refer to page 359.

12 It says, "Dear Delegates: This is to certify that we,

13 the Trustees, have this date audited the book of the

14 Southwest Regional Council of Carpenters from October 1st

15 of 2008 to December 31st of 2008. We find them to be

16 correct, with the proper amount of money in the bank,

17 receipts properly deposited, and expenses properly

18 authorized and ordinary and necessary to conduct Council

19 business." Signed by Trust Hayden, Trustee Langford, and

20 Trustee Foster.

21 Page 360 at the bottom of the page, ending cash

22 and investment as of December 31st of 2008 was in the

23 amount $138,633,984.13. Page 368 is the Southwest

24 Regional Council Comparative Balance Sheet as of December

25 31st of 2008, showing total liability and fund balance


1 for the current year of $207,211,396.24. And for the

2 prior year, $169,939,561.02.

3 Exhibit 27, pages 370 through 381 is the

4 Southwest Regional Council Trustee Report for January

5 through March 2009. Please refer to page 371. "Dear

6 Delegates: This is to certify that we, the Trustees,

7 have this date audited the books of the Southwest

8 Regional Council of Carpenters from January 1st, 2009 to

9 March 31st, 2009. We find them to be correct, with the

10 proper amount of money in the bank, receipts properly

11 deposited, and expenses properly authorized and ordinary

12 and necessary to conduct business." Signed by Trustee

13 Hayden, Trustee Langford, and Trustee Foster.

14 Please refer to page 372. At the very bottom,

15 ending cash and investment as of March 31st of 2009, in

16 the amount of $144,556,702.08.

17 Please refer to 347 -- I'm sorry 374. I'm

18 sorry. I'll have to make a statement with that one so

19 we'll skip over it.

20 Let's refer to Exhibit 28, pages 382 through

21 393 -- I'm sorry, I'm going to ask that you back up to

22 page 380. Page 380 is the Southwest Regional Council

23 comparative balance sheet as of March 31st, 2009 showing

24 total liability and fund balance for the current year to

25 be $215,573,281.48, and for the prior year to be


1 $180,635,808.91.

2 Now we'll look at Exhibit 28, pages 382 to 393,

3 Southwest Regional Council Trustee Report, April to June

4 of 2009. Please refer to page 383. "Dear Delegates:

5 This is to certify we, the Trustees, have this date

6 audited the books of the Southwest Regional Council of

7 Carpenters from April 1st of 2009 to June 30th of 2009.

8 We find them to be correct, with the proper amount of

9 money in the bank, receipts properly deposited, and

10 expenses properly authorized and ordinary and necessary

11 to conduct Council business." Signed by Trustee Hayden,

12 Trustee Langford, and Trustee Foster.

13 Please refer to page 384. Down at the bottom

14 ending cash and investments for June 30th, 2009, in

15 amount of $151,002,474.14.

16 Please refer to 391, Southwest Regional Council

17 Comparative Balance Sheet as of June 30th 2009, showing

18 total assets of $221,708,038.85, with the prior year

19 being $188,511,843.70.

20 Let it be noted Exhibit 29 is blank.

21 Please refer to Exhibit 30, pages 394 through

22 405 --

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, hang on one second.

24 Okay. We got a little --

25 MR. THARP: Just for clarification, as we look


1 back through the prior year, the March 31st, 2009, page

2 380, we have the current year $215,573,281, and then as

3 we look -- okay. I'm -- that's -- we're month by month

4 here, I'm sorry.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Sorry.


7 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. For time sake, what I'll

8 do is I think you get the gist that they continue to

9 increase their assets year to year. I'll just read the

10 first page of the Trustee Report so we can get through

11 this.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: That's fine.

13 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, they had indicated

14 they were almost done with this. I looked and they got

15 half of this book left. If they are going to be another

16 hour, I would like to take a break.

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Can we get through the Trustee

18 Report then we can take a break?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: How many do we have left?

20 MR. MCCARRON: Just two.


22 MS. GRIFFIN: We have about 16 left. But if

23 I'm only reading the first page, I can get through them

24 in less than 10 minutes.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's take a break. We want


1 everybody's undivided attention.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: No problem.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: It's a quarter after, by this

4 clock on the wall.

5 (Recess.)

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Back on the record.

7 MR. THARP: For the record, my question was

8 clarified that I had in regards to that. We've gone

9 month to month with the last few there. I was looking

10 back year to year.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. Thank you. And to

12 expedite this, I'm going to just start reading from the

13 first page of these.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Great. Thank you.

15 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 28, page 382 through 393,

16 Southwest Regional Council Trustee Report for April to

17 June of 2009. Page 383.

18 "This is to certify that we, the Trustees, have

19 this date audited the books of the Southwest Regional

20 Council of Carpenters from April 1st of 2009 to June 30th

21 of 2009.

22 "We find them to be, correct with the proper

23 amount of money in the bank, receipts properly deposited,

24 and expenses properly authorized and ordinary and

25 necessary to conduct Council business." Signed by


1 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Langford, and Trustee Foster.

2 Exhibit 29 is left intentionally blank.

3 Exhibit 30, pages 394 through 405, is a

4 Southwest Regional Council Trustee Report for July

5 through September of 2009. Please refer to page 395.



8 Council of Carpenters from July 1st of 2009 to September

9 30th, 2009.







16 417. This is a Southwest Regional Council Trustee Report

17 for October through December of 2009.



20 Council of Carpenters from October 1st, 2009 to December

21 31st, 2009" -- I'm sorry, did I reference a page number?

22 It's page 407.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: 407.

24 MS. GRIFFIN: "We find them to be, correct with

25 the proper amount of money in the bank, receipts properly


1 deposited, and expenses properly authorized and ordinary

2 and necessary to conduct Council business." Signed

3 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Langford, Trustee Foster.

4 Please refer to Exhibit 32, page 418 through

5 428. This is the Southwest Regional Council Trustee

6 Report for January through March of 2010, page 419.


8 this date audited the book of Southwest Regional Council

9 of Carpenters of January 1st, 2010 to March 31st, 2010.






15 Please refer to Exhibit 33. Southwest Trustee

16 Report for April to June of 2010, pages 429 through 439,

17 please refer to page 430.


19 this date audited the books of Southwest Regional Council

20 of Carpenters from April 1st of 2010 to June 30th, 2010.








2 450. Page 441.



5 Council of Carpenters from July 1st of 2010 to September

6 30th, 2010.





11 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Langford and Trustee Foster.

12 Please refer to Exhibit 35, pages 451 to 461.

13 Page 452.


15 this date audited the books of Southwest Regional Council

16 of Carpenters from October 1st of 2010 to December 31st

17 of 2010.







24 474. Page 463.




2 Council of Carpenters from January 1st, 2011 to March

3 31st, 2011.






9 Please refer to Exhibit 37. Pages 475 through

10 486. Page 476.



13 Council of Carpenters from April 1st 2011, to June 30th,

14 2011.





19 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Rojas, and Trustee Foster.


21 498. Page 488.

22 "This is it to certify that we, the Trustees,

23 have this date audited the books of the Southwest

24 Regional Council of Carpenters from July 1st, 2011 to

25 September 30th, 2011.






5 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Rojas, and Trustee Foster.


7 510. Page 500.



10 Council of Carpenters from October 1st, 2011 to December

11 31st, 2011.





16 Trustee Hayden and Trustee Foster.


18 523. Page 512.



21 Council of Carpenters from January 1st, 2011, to March

22 31st -- I'm sorry, from January 1st, 2012 to March 31st,

23 2012.






3 Trustee Hayden, Trustee Rojas, Trustee Foster.


5 535. Page 525.


7 this date audited the book of the Southwest Regional

8 Council of Carpenters from April 1st, 2012, to June 30th,

9 2012.







16 547. Page 537.



19 Council of Carpenters from July 1st, 2012 to September

20 30th, 2012.








2 552. Page 548. This is the LM-2 for year -- fiscal year

3 ending 2007, signed by Jackie Barnett and Mike McCarron.

4 Please refer to page 549. The net assets for the start

5 of the reporting period were $147,866,154. At the end of

6 the reporting period, the net assets were $188,653,787.

7 MR. NEWKIRK: Mr. Chair --

8 MS. GRIFFIN: That's all I'm reading of the

9 LM-2.

10 MR. NEWKIRK: For what year was that LM-2

11 report?

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go back.

13 MR. NEWKIRK: Or you can just refer me.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: To the previous page. Hang on,

15 Phil.

16 MR. THARP: I just think you misread that.

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Oh, did I? I can read the period

18 covered.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: '07, '08.

20 MR. THARP: It's that year ending '08.

21 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, did I hear counsel

22 correctly, is she done with the LMs?

23 THE CHAIRMAN: The question was: Have you

24 finished with the LM-2 reports?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: No, I haven't. But I'm only


1 going to be reading the first two pages, so it should go

2 very quickly.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Great. So that was

4 ending '08.

5 MR. NEWKIRK: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Ms. Griffin, please

7 continue.

8 MS. GRIFFIN: Please refer to Exhibit 44,

9 Southwest Regional Council LM-2 for July of '08 through

10 June of '09, signed by Hal Jensen and Mike McCarron --

11 I'm sorry, that would be page 555. Please refer to page

12 556. Line 35 indicates the net assets at the beginning

13 of the reporting period were $188,653,787. At the end of

14 the reporting period, $219,398,364.

15 Please refer to Exhibit 45. Pages 562 through

16 568. Page 562 is the LM-2 for a period July 1st of 2009

17 to June 30th of 2010. Signed by Harold Jensen and signed

18 by Harold Jensen. Page 563, line 35. Net assets,

19 $218,944,959 for the start of the reporting period. And

20 $229,800,027 for the end of the reporting period.


22 576. This is the LM-2 for the Southwest Regional Council

23 for the period from July 1st, 2010 through June 30th,

24 2011, signed by Harold Jensen and Mike McCarron. That

25 would be page 569. Please refer to page 570, line 35.


1 Net assets at the beginning of the reporting period,

2 $229,927,219. At the end of the reporting period,

3 $238,037,957.

4 Please refer to Exhibit 47. Southwest Regional

5 Council LM-2 for July 1st, 2011 to June 30th, 2012 --

6 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, if I might

7 interrupt?

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper.

9 MR. DRAPER: Are they going to produce a

10 witness so I can ask questions about this particular LM-2

11 exhibit?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: I was told if I did not make

13 statements --

14 THE CHAIRMAN: You can. It was a question.

15 MS. GRIFFIN: Apparently --

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Are you going to produce

17 witnesses?

18 MS. GRIFFIN: We're producing witnesses, yes.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: To speak about these?

20 MS. GRIFFIN: Not to speak of the LM-2s.

21 MR. DRAPER: What was the answer?

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Not to speak to the LM-2s.

23 MR. DRAPER: So I have no opportunity to

24 address anyone from that side about this LM-2; is that

25 correct?


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct.

2 Continue, please.

3 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm sorry. I lost my train

4 again.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: 578.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes.

7 Exhibit 47, Southwest Regional Council, LM-2

8 for July 11th through -- I'm sorry, through July 1st,

9 2011 through June 30th, 2012, signed by Harold Jensen and

10 Mike McCarron. Page 578 reflects net assets on line 35

11 at the beginning of the reporting period of $238,037,957.

12 At the end of the reporting period, $236,866,843.

13 Please refer to Exhibit 48 -- I'm sorry, yeah,

14 Exhibit 48, pages 585 through 588. This is the Southwest

15 Regional Council executive committee minutes -- committee

16 meeting minutes of December 17th -- December 17th of

17 2008. Please refer to page 587. Reference "Other

18 Business." First paragraph, "There was a decision on the

19 state of the economy" -- I'm sorry -- "there was a

20 discussion on the state of the economy and work slowing

21 down."

22 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, I, again, ask, is

23 there anyone going to be produced from that side of the

24 table that I can ask questions about this document?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: No.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: No. Okay.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: Third paragraph, "EST" --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Hang on a second, Ms. Griffin.

4 Brother Draper, I hear your concern. She's

5 entering the document. And the committee is going to

6 take it at face value. There's -- it is what it is.

7 There's no testimony to go with it.

8 Ms. Griffin, I would say to you that the issue

9 is, it's not authenticated by anyone except this

10 document. We can only do that as take it as face value.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: We understand.


13 MS. GRIFFIN: Page 587. "Other business:

14 There was a discussion on the state of the economy and

15 work slowing down."

16 Paragraph 3: "EST McCarron stated the need to

17 prepare members and our organization for a big slow

18 down."

19 Down towards the bottom, third paragraph from

20 the bottom: "EST McCarron discussed the status of the

21 Southwest Pension Trust and mentioned the possibility of

22 the pension being $100 for 2008."

23 Please refer to Exhibit 49. Southwest Regional

24 Council Executive Committee meeting minutes, January

25 15th, 2009, pages 589 through 592. Please refer to page


1 592.

2 "The executive committee also discussed the

3 status of the building in Albuquerque. Summit has

4 withdrawn but Oltmans has been lined up to be the general

5 contractor and get the job going."

6 Please refer to Exhibit 50, page 593 to 595.

7 This is the Southwest Regional Council Executive

8 Committee meeting minutes for February 15th, 2009, pages

9 593 to 595. Please refer to 594.

10 At the bottom of the page: "EST McCarron

11 reported that the Council is working with Segal Advisors

12 on a strategy to safely invest."

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, are you going to

14 tie all this together for us? We're entering a lot of

15 documents. I'm having a hard time following where you're

16 going without any witnesses.

17 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. Our intent is to try to

18 tie it together.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. I don't want

20 to speak for the other committee members, but --

21 MR. THARP: I concur.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah, okay.

23 MS. GRIFFIN: Exhibit 51, pages 596 through

24 599. Southwest Regional Council Executive Committee

25 meeting, June 30th of 2009. Please refer to page 599.


1 "Other business," first paragraph, second

2 sentence: "It is believed that the commercial market

3 will continue to drop and that good values will be

4 available in the real estate market."

5 Third paragraph: "Executive Secretary McCarron

6 gave an update on the Albuquerque, New Mexico project."

7 Following paragraph: "EST McCarron reported on

8 the current review of the training staff for policy,

9 procedure, and appropriate staffing levels. The

10 Executive Committee discussed the likelihood that

11 staffing levels would have to be cut as membership and

12 apprenticeship levels decline."

13 The following paragraph: "The committee also

14 discussed the current state of the economy and future

15 impact on the organization as 2010 is likely to be a very

16 bad year."

17 Please refer to Exhibit 512, page 600 to 601.

18 Page 601. This is the Southwest Regional Council

19 Executive Committee meeting for October 15th, 2009.

20 "Other business." Second paragraph: "The

21 Executive Secretary-Treasurer McCarron reported that in

22 Southern California, Oltmans Construction is going to cut

23 the carpenter wages back to the tilt-up agreement level

24 due to the difficult economic picture:

25 "The Executive Committee reviewed the work


1 picture throughout the Council and also discussed the

2 economic outlook."


4 606. Southwest Regional Council Executive Committee

5 minute meeting, November 19th, 2009, page 605.

6 "Other business: EST McCarron reported that

7 the Chicago Regional Council had to lay off over 70 staff

8 members. The New England Regional Council laid off more

9 than 40 representatives. The economy is having a severe

10 impact on all areas of the UBC."

11 Please refer to Exhibit 54. This is the

12 Southwest Regional Council Executive Committee meeting

13 minutes for December 17th, 2009, page 608.

14 "Other business," third paragraph: "EST

15 McCarron reported that the Trust now has an unfunded

16 liability of $231 million, but that it should be paid off

17 in five years. He also noted that this may help with

18 negotiations with any companies that are considering

19 canceling their contract."

20 Exhibit 55, pages 610 through 615. This is the

21 Southwest Regional Council Executive Committee meeting

22 minutes for May 26th of 2010. Please refer to page 614.

23 "Other business: The Executive Committee reviewed the

24 list of contractors that have sent in cancellation

25 letters." That's the first sentence.


1 Third paragraph: "The Executive Committee also

2 discussed the serious nature [sic] with the healthcare

3 costs, and also the Health & Welfare Trust. Currently,

4 the Trust is in deficit spending and need to have the

5 in" -- "and the need to have to increase contributions or

6 decrease benefits. They're looking at an option to

7 change the rules to use bank hours or increase the amount

8 of hours to qualify."

9 The next sentence: "The committee also

10 stressed the importance that all hours worked by members

11 get reported.

12 "EST McCarron" -- I'm sorry. Next page, 615.

13 "EST McCarron discussed that he met with consultants, and

14 that they said that almost every other Trust Fund in the

15 industry is in even greater trouble."

16 Please refer to Exhibit 56. This is a

17 Southwest Regional Council of Carpenters Executive

18 Committee meeting minutes for August of 2010. There are

19 no applicable references that I would like to discuss.

20 Please refer to Exhibit 57. This is the


22 Committee meeting minutes for January 26th of 2011, pages

23 620 through 623. Please refer to page 623.

24 "Other business." You know what, I don't need

25 to read that. You can scratch that.




3 MR. DRAPER: I'm going to object. My objection

4 is, we're going through Counsel putting on a case on

5 behalf of Mr. McCarron, without any opportunity for this

6 side to cross-examine anybody that can speak to any of

7 these documents. Now, when we put our case on, every

8 document in both binders, we had a witness --

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Correct.

10 MR. DRAPER: -- that would refer to those

11 documents. They had an opportunity to cross-examine our

12 witnesses.

13 I'm not going to sit by here idly while they

14 sit and try to put a case on because Mike McCarron don't

15 have the courage to get up and take the stand.

16 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection.

17 MR. DRAPER: Or the internal fortitude to get

18 up and take the stand.


20 MR. DRAPER: But just a minute.

21 MS. GRIFFIN: You're grandstanding.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Through the Chair, okay. I

23 heard you. We're going to let Brother Draper finish and

24 we'll come back to you.

25 MR. DRAPER: So what we're doing is listening


1 to someone put a case on with a binder of documentation,

2 whatever that case is.

3 And I ask, can I talk to somebody about the

4 LMs? No, we're not going to produce anybody.

5 Can I talk to somebody about the minutes? No,

6 we're not going to produce anybody.

7 So let her complete, and then I will make my

8 statement at the end. But I'm just telling you, I'm

9 objecting throughout this process.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, duly noted. And

11 I've advised the accused that these only have the weight

12 of the documents at face value because there is no

13 testimony to support or cross-examine. So we've already

14 said that.

15 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, I believe we are

16 putting on the best case that we possibly can. In the

17 sake of asking witnesses to testify, but them letting us

18 know that they're in fear because they've been threatened

19 with their jobs. So we would have had witnesses, but

20 they fear for their job.


22 MS. GRIFFIN: Again, I'm going to go back to

23 the fact that we sent a letter asking for trial rules and

24 procedures, and we were merely referred to a section in

25 the UBC that was very unclear. So we were not aware of


1 any of this. And I thank you very much for allowing us

2 to continue with our case. And I would get through this

3 a lot faster if I could just finish.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, we're near the end of the

5 binder, so I assume you're almost through.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: Believe me, I'm in more pain than

7 all of you.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay, let's continue.

9 MS. GRIFFIN: Please refer to Exhibit 58 and

10 note that it's left blank.

11 Please refer to Exhibit 59, page 624 to 627,


13 Committee meeting minutes, dated March 17th of 2000 --

14 I'm sorry, I don't know. Can you go back and read

15 forward from the last exhibit that I presented?

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Can you give us the exhibit

17 number of the last exhibit? Would that be helpful?

18 (Record read.)

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Sonja.

20 THE REPORTER: You're welcome.

21 MS. GRIFFIN: So now we're referring to Exhibit

22 59, this is Southwest Regional Council of Carpenters

23 Executive Committee meeting minutes for March 17th of

24 2011.

25 MR. SMITH: What's the page number?


1 MS. GRIFFIN: Pages 624 through 627. Please


3 "Other business." The fifth sentence down:

4 "There was also a discussion on the financial standing of

5 the Regional Council and the Trust Funds. It was also

6 mentioned that February was the worst month so far."

7 The next sentence: "Also discussed were the

8 building projects and the Las Vegas and" -- "and that Las

9 Vegas and Buena Park may be put on hold until hours start

10 to turn around."

11 The next sentence: "The committee also

12 discussed the work picture in all areas."


14 631. This is the Southwest Regional Councils Executive

15 Committee meeting minutes for March 27th of 2013. Please


17 The first sentence: "EST McCarron reported on

18 the QPAM being used by the Southwest Training Fund for

19 leases."

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, I have to ask you

21 why you're not producing the QPAM? I'm sure that person

22 -- can you identify the QPAM?

23 MR. MCCARRON: Peter Aylward.

24 MS. GRIFFIN: Peter Aylward.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: We're not going to do it now,


1 but I -- you probably should have introduced this during

2 your cross with him, if you wanted to. Okay?


4 THE CHAIRMAN: Just --

5 MS. GRIFFIN: Thank you. I did not understand.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yep.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Please refer to Exhibit 61. This

8 is a March 2006 letter from Randy Sowell to Mike

9 McCarron, and the Executive Board of Southwest Regional

10 Council, regarding property and leases, pages 632 through

11 633. On page 633, number 4: "We do not suggest at this

12 time that the formal appraisals be performed on these

13 properties. If special issues arise that warrant an

14 appraisal, it can be done at that time."

15 Please refer to Exhibit 62.

16 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, is anyone going to

17 be made available so I can talk to them about this

18 exhibit?

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Randy Sowell, are you going to

20 call him?

21 MS. GRIFFIN: No, we're not.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: You're not, okay.

23 Again, I suggest that you could have went

24 through that when you had him on the stand.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: At this point, this is to get


1 this on the record. In addition, I did not understand

2 the trial procedures. I did not understand that I could

3 introduce these questions on cross. I thought I could

4 only ask questions that were brought up by the direct.


6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go off the record one

7 second. Okay.


9 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Back on the record,

10 Sonja, please.

11 Ms. Griffin, would you continue.

12 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes. I've only got two left.

13 Please refer to Exhibit 62. This is a January

14 26th, 2003 letter to Justin Weidner from Carmen Visser,

15 Randy Sowell is cc'd. This is regarding the leases for

16 Phoenix Training Facility, page 634.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Again, Ms. Griffin, I would

18 suggest that it would have had more weight had you

19 introduced it when Justin was on the witness stand to

20 verify what it was. Just to acknowledge that.

21 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Again, we

22 didn't understand the procedures. I'm sorry.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: You're on the record. We got

24 it.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: It's unfortunate that the United


1 Brotherhood Constitution would not allow Mr. McCarron to

2 have legal counsel --

3 THE CHAIRMAN: That's --

4 MS. GRIFFIN: -- otherwise it would have been

5 probably --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, I'd like to have my own

7 legal counsel, but I don't.

8 MS. GRIFFIN: You're not at risk of being

9 expelled from the Brotherhood.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, please continue.

11 Okay?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: Please refer to Exhibit 63. This

13 is an e-mail dated November 1st of 2007, from Justin

14 Weidner to Carmen Visser, which is Randy Sowell's

15 assistant. Subject "Lease Amendment." Page 635.

16 "Hello, I need an amendment to the lease for

17 Southwest Carpenter Training Fund, Ontario. We need to

18 add 4,000 square feet of classroom space to their lease.

19 Thanks."

20 MR. DRAPER: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. Does

21 that end her --

22 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm working on it.

23 MR. DRAPER: I'm talking about her exhibits.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure. I think she's

25 reviewing right now, Brother Draper. Just give her a


1 minute.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: At this time, I would like to

3 call witnesses in support of Mike McCarron.




7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


1 THE CHAIRMAN: So let's call our witness.

2 Okay.

3 And, Sonja, I'm going to want to see the

4 transcript first before we release them to anybody.

5 Okay?

6 THE REPORTER: Okay.


8 MS. GRIFFIN: Can we go off the record?



11 THE CHAIRMAN: Good afternoon. Why don't you

12 just stand for a second, give us your name for the

13 record, and spell it. And then the court reporter will

14 swear you in, if you don't mind.

15 THE WITNESS: Wayne Catalano, last name

16 C-a-t-a-l-a-n-o.

17 THE REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear that the

18 testimony you shall give in this proceeding shall be the

19 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so

20 help you God?

21 THE WITNESS: I do.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Be seated, please.

23

24 WAYNE CATALANO,

25 called as a witness by the accused party, after having


1 been duly sworn, testified as follows:

2

3 DIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

5 Q Mr. Catalano, how long have you been a member

6 of the Carpenters Union?

7 A 51 years.

8 Q Are you currently employed with the Carpenters

9 Union?

10 A No, I'm retired.

11 Q When was the last time you worked for the

12 Carpenters Union?

13 A I retired January 1st, 2008.

14 Q What was your position?

15 A Administrative assistant to Mike McCarron.

16 Q What were your duties in that position?

17 A I was in charge of the Gold Coast area and

18 that. I had organizers that worked for me. And I did

19 whatever direction I got from the Regional Council.

20 Q How long were you in that position?

21 A Approximately six years.

22 Q Wayne, do you know Mike McCarron?

23 A Yes, I do.

24 Q How do you know Mike McCarron?

25 A Well, I first met him when he was in CAT back


1 in I think it was '86, or something like that, when we

2 worked together on --

3 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm having a hard

4 time hearing you.

5 Q BY MS. GRIFFIN: Wayne, what is your opinion of

6 Mike McCarron's reputation in the Brotherhood?

7 A He's highly thought of. I have nothing but

8 respect for him. Even members of my local who have met

9 Mike on weekends and stuff, and introduced themselves

10 because they know Mike from the magazines and that. They

11 would come to me and say, "What a great guy he is. I

12 went and introduced myself and he treated me like he knew

13 me. I felt he totally respected me. I can't believe

14 what a friendly guy he is." Everybody I've worked with

15 has had the same opinion of him. I feel like working

16 with Mike, he's like a friend too. I've never been

17 intimidated by him.

18 Q Wayne, what is your opinion of Mike McCarron as

19 an individual?

20 A Same.

21 Q What was your reaction to the charges filed

22 against Mike?

23 A Actually, they sickened me. I'm actually upset

24 because these are two great men. I think the world of

25 them, both Mike and Doug.


1 Q Do you know Doug McCarron?

2 A Yes. I've known Doug probably back in the late

3 '70s when I first met him, when he was with CAT,

4 executive secretary of Los Angeles. We -- on several

5 things we worked together on. Nothing but respect for

6 the man.

7 Q Wayne, what is your opinion of Doug?

8 A I think he's -- I have nothing but respect for

9 him.

10 Q Wayne, have you had any recent conversations

11 with Doug?

12 A Last conversation I had with him was at the

13 trustees meeting in Los Angeles. And that would have

14 been June, sometime in June.

15 Q What did you discuss with him in this meeting?

16 A In the meeting?

17 Q When you had the contact with him, when you had

18 the conversation.

19 A Well, we had the trust meeting. And I

20 approached -- I was trying to meet with him to get a

21 picture with him for my 50-year pin in presenting it, but

22 things got tied up so we're supposed to it this September

23 if we have time.

24 Q Wayne, are you aware that Doug and Mike are

25 estranged?


1 A I just recently been made aware of that.

2 Q Do you know why?

3 A Only information I heard is that there may be

4 some family conflict. That, once again, is upsetting

5 because two great guys.

6 Q Wayne, have you ever seen Mike threaten anyone?

7 A Not in front of me.

8 Q Have you ever seen Mike dress down an employee

9 in front of other employees?

10 A No.

11 Q Have you ever witnessed erratic behavior from

12 Mike?

13 A No.

14 Q How would you characterize Mike McCarron's

15 disposition?

16 A He just -- he -- people meet him, they like

17 him. He's always friendly. He doesn't -- he's not

18 arrogant. I've never seen it. I've just -- when I --

19 when we merged with the Regional Council, I thought, you

20 know, it was going to be a different stress because I was

21 used to running my own position and that. But I never

22 felt intimidated. I always felt that he welcomed me and

23 he spent time with me if I had questions.

24 Any time I might have questions about the area,

25 I come to the trust meetings, whatever, I'd ask to see


1 him and his office would be open. I might have to wait.

2 He might say, if you'll wait, come on in and we discussed

3 things. I was very comfortable, even if it was something

4 he might not agree with, he's say, no, you're not

5 informed, you need to look at this. And he -- I was

6 comfortable to talk to him. I was not ever intimidated

7 to talk to him.

8 Q Wayne, is it true you are a trustee for the

9 Training Fund?

10 A Yes.

11 Q When were you first informed of the lease

12 regarding the Fund and Regional Council?

13 A Sometime last November, November of 2012.

14 Q Who told you?

15 A It was reported by -- John DeCarlo reported it

16 to the trustees.

17 Q What did he tell you?

18 A My understanding of what he said was that there

19 was some problem with the Department of Labor

20 overcharging -- not overcharging, but they were too high.

21 And that we needed to -- to get some outside assessments

22 of the property and stuff. And it -- you know, with the

23 economy falling out, that no adjustments had been made.

24 And my response -- my thought to that was I could see it

25 happening, having been involved in -- it was tradition to


1 set up ten-year leases. So we'll have to go through it

2 and see how it comes out.

3 Q Do you believe Mike concocted a scheme to

4 charge overinflated rent on 8 of the 17 or 18 leases in

5 question?

6 A I have no reason to believe that.

7 Q Is there any -- is there a reason the meeting

8 minutes are so brief?

9 A I think that -- I would have been the secretary

10 for -- ever since I've been in the Brotherhood and

11 graduated, and advice of attorneys was to keep them

12 brief.

13 Q Thank you.

14 Wayne, do you have confidence in information

15 that you've received as a trustee?

16 A Right now, under these circumstances, I'm very

17 concerned. There's been a few other issues of advisors

18 that had fallen through. But if they're saying that Mike

19 had done something for personal reasons, that was never

20 reported. Why wasn't it reported to us trustees? It

21 sounded to me like it was an innocent situation of a

22 lease that needed to be corrected. That the lease was

23 for ten years and never given a thought about -- I

24 thought this because the economy had dropped and they

25 were questioning it.


1 Then it was something about the Department of

2 Labor would not like these long-term leases. Never heard

3 that before. I had been involved in these leases -- I

4 think in the Gold Coast, we were the second ones in

5 California to set up these leases.

6 My predecessors, Sam Harold and J.D. Butler,

7 with the Pleasant District, set these up, came to our

8 Council, and urged us to put the money up to buy these

9 buildings. And they set up ten-year leases. It was the

10 standard. And even prior to our mergers, it was my

11 responsibility when I moved into the treasurer position

12 to build the apprenticeship trust on a yearly basis based

13 upon our leases that carried a cost of living increase,

14 or based upon the Los Angeles District Council of that

15 Los Angeles economy -- I'm trying to think of the -- cost

16 of living, I'm sorry. And it was formulated. I never

17 ever once thought we were -- would do this type of thing.

18 I thought we got a lease, we have the lease. It may be

19 stupidity on my part. But based upon the Department of

20 Labor now. But that's what was always the process.

21 So me, as the trustee, sitting now under the

22 Regional Council, I felt, hey, there's no wrongdoing.

23 It's something we legally did. Now the Department of

24 Labor is saying we can't do it, we got to make some

25 changes. Let's do it. And that went for the full board,


1 I thought, with the same understanding. No indication

2 that there was any improprieties by Mike.

3 And supposedly they had -- were suspecting that

4 early on. Why, as a trustee, was I not privileged to

5 that information so that I knew what was going on? I'm

6 sitting there voting on things that I don't feel like I

7 had all the information. Which puts me, I think, in a

8 problem if the Department of Labor were to rule, and

9 every trustee that sits on that board.

10 Q Thank you, Wayne.

11 Since these charges have been levied against

12 Mike, are you nervous about continuing as a trustee?

13 A Yes, I'm very nervous about it. Because now

14 I'm going to have this -- with this situation and

15 previous situations, some concern that I am not being

16 informed of what really is going on by our advisors.

17 Which jeopardizes me and my family, and my loyalty to

18 this Brotherhood. I want to do the right thing.

19 Q Wayne, in your opinion, could this situation

20 with Mike expose you and other trustees to liability?

21 A That's my concern right now. Yes, that's a

22 concern for me.

23 MS. GRIFFIN: No further questions.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, do you have any

25 cross-examination for this witness?


1 MR. DRAPER: I think so.

2

3 CROSS-EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. DRAPER:

5 Q Hi, Wayne. How are you?

6 A Fine. Thank you, Mike.

7 Q I've known you for a long time; right?

8 A Yes, sir.

9 Q Wayne, you know I'm the party that has filed

10 charges under 14(D) of the Constitution --

11 A That's my understanding.

12 Q -- against Michael McCarron?

13 A This is my understanding.

14 Q I guess you would say in this forum I'm the

15 adversary.

16 You consider Mike McCarron a friend, don't you,

17 Wayne?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And you would do anything you could to help

20 him, wouldn't you?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q Okay. Were you on the Regional Council

23 Executive Committee until 2008?

24 A Yes. I had to resign because of my retirement

25 date.


1 Q But that was in 2008?

2 A The first -- January 1st -- actually, December

3 31st of 2007.

4 Q But you have not been on the Regional Council

5 Executive Committee since that period of time; is that

6 correct?

7 A Yes, sir.

8 Q You weren't on the Executive Committee in 2009,

9 were you?

10 A No, sir.

11 Q 2010?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q 2011, '12 or '13?

14 A No. No, sir.

15 Q Okay. So you don't really know exactly how

16 Mike's been running the Regional Council in the last five

17 years since you left, do you?

18 A No, sir.

19 Q The Regional Council owned some property in

20 Tucson, don't it?

21 A Yes, sir.

22 Q The Regional Council rented that property to

23 the Training Center, didn't it?

24 A That's my understanding. Yes, that's in the

25 reports as well.


1 Q Did you know Mike McCarron signed that lease in

2 2005 as a trustee of the Training Fund? Did you know

3 that?

4 A I didn't really know who was signing the

5 agreements at that time.

6 Q Did you know the Regional Council charged the

7 Training Fund double the fair market rent for that

8 property?

9 A No, sir. That concerns me if that's a fact.

10 Why wasn't that reported to me as the trustee?

11 Q So you didn't know that that was happening?

12 A No, sir.

13 Q When did you find out that it was happening?

14 A Couple of weeks ago, a month ago.

15 Q You've been a trustee of the Training Fund for

16 many years, haven't you, Wayne?

17 A Partnership, yes.

18 Q The Training Fund?

19 A Yes.

20 Q As a trustee, you owe the Training Fund a

21 fiduciary duty to be fair, don't you?

22 A Yes, sir.

23 Q You owe the Training Fund a fiduciary duty to

24 be loyal, don't you?

25 A Yes, sir.


1 Q You had a duty to protect the Training Fund,

2 didn't you, Wayne?

3 A I had what?

4 Q A duty --

5 A Yes, sir.

6 Q -- to protect the Training Fund?

7 Do you approve of the Training Fund paying

8 double fair market rent?

9 A Not openly, no, sir.

10 Q Would you explain "not openly."

11 A Well, if that's what the rates were and they

12 dropped, I don't see -- that could happen. I don't see

13 that it needed to be changed. So I guess my answer

14 should be no, Mike.

15 Q You don't believe that they should be paid

16 double fair market rent?

17 A No, sir.

18 Q Thank you.

19 Do you know the Training Fund was paying the

20 above market rent?

21 A I didn't know that.

22 Q You didn't know that?

23 A Other than the reports that are out.

24 Q Did you personally decide the amount of rents

25 the Regional Council would charge the Training Fund?


1 A I have no --

2 Q Do you think the Department of Labor would

3 approve the Training Fund paying twice the fair market

4 rent?

5 A No.

6 Q You didn't write the leases, did you, Wayne?

7 A No, sir.

8 Q You didn't sign the leases, did you?

9 A No, sir.

10 Q You didn't negotiate the leases, did you?

11 A No, sir.

12 Q You did not decide how much rent would be, did

13 you?

14 A No. No, sir.

15 Q You were not part of any discussion to decide

16 how much the rent would be; is that correct?

17 A That's correct.

18 Q You are a member of the Training Fund Board the

19 Trustee; is that correct?

20 A That's correct.

21 Q Mike McCarron is a member, isn't he?

22 A Yes.

23 Q You meet every quarter?

24 A Yes.

25 Q Mike attended those meetings, didn't he?


1 A Yes.

2 Q At those meetings, you approved the Training

3 Fund's budget, didn't you?

4 A Yes.

5 Q It's in the minutes; right?

6 A Yes.

7 Q Mike took part of that budget discussion?

8 A Yes; as all the trustees did.

9 Q Okay. Mike took part in the budget votes,

10 didn't he?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Mike did not recuse himself from that, did he?

13 A Not to my knowledge, no.

14 Q Mike never told the board that he decided the

15 rent based on every maximum amount the Training Fund

16 could afford to pay, did he?


18 THE CHAIRMAN: Noted.

19 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Did you hear the question?

20 Would you like me to repeat it?

21 A Please repeat it.

22 Q If you don't understand one, Wayne, just ask me

23 to repeat it, would you, please? Because I want to make

24 sure you understand it.

25 Mike never told the board that he decided the


1 rent based on a very maximum amount the Training Fund

2 could afford to pay, did he?

3 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. That goes towards an

4 assumption that Mike did that.


6 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Can you answer that, Wayne?

7 MS. GRIFFIN: Could you repeat the question?

8 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Mike never --

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Why don't we have the court

10 reporter read it back?


12 MR. DRAPER: I'm having a hard time hearing

13 her.


15 THE WITNESS: I don't know that report. I

16 don't know if that's a fact.

17 Q BY MR. DRAPER: The question was: Did he tell

18 the board that?

19 A No.

20 Q Okay. So Mike never told the board that the

21 rent was twice the value of the market value, did he?

22 A No, I don't recall.

23 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. Mike's responsibility

24 was also acting as a trustee in the same capacity as all

25 the other trustees for the Training Fund.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, just -- we'll note

2 your objections.


4 THE CHAIRMAN: Continue, Brother Draper.

5 Q BY MR. DRAPER: The Regional Council owned land

6 in Santa Ana, Camarillo, and San Diego; is that correct?

7 A Yes. Since the mergers.

8 Q The Training Fund paid the Regional Council to

9 use this land, didn't they?

10 A Yes, that's their policy.

11 Q Those written leases all expired several years

12 ago. Did you know that?

13 A I don't know when the leases expired.

14 Q Did you know the leases went month to month?

15 A No.

16 Q Nobody tried to renegotiate them, to the best

17 of your knowledge; is that correct?

18 A Not -- to the best of my knowledge, no.

19 Q Nobody ever got appraisals, to the best of your

20 knowledge; is that correct?

21 A No.

22 Q Mike McCarron never told the Regional Council

23 Executive Committee those leases need to be renegotiated,

24 did he?

25 A Not to my knowledge. I don't know. I wasn't


1 on that board.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. That's not Mike

3 McCarron's duty to --

4 THE WITNESS: I don't know what he told the

5 Executive Committee.

6 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: Noted, Brother Draper.

8 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Catalano was an Executive

9 Committee member, so this is a proper question to ask.

10 So I would like to repeat.

11 THE WITNESS: Well, you have to tell me what

12 years you're talking about because I have not been on the

13 Executive Committee --

14 Q BY MR. DRAPER: In your tenure as the Executive

15 Committee member, did Mike McCarron ever tell you that

16 those leases needed to be renegotiated that you recall?

17 A I don't recall.

18 Q Okay. You're still a member on the Training

19 Trust, is that correct -- as a trustee?

20 A Yes.

21 Q So Mike McCarron never told the Training Fund

22 Trustees those need to be renegotiated, those leases, did

23 he?

24 A Not that I recall.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. It's not his


1 responsibility --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, if you could

3 just --

4 MS. GRIFFIN: Well, if he continues to ask

5 questions that aren't relevant --

6 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's not characterize them.

7 Okay? We noted your objection.

8 Q BY MR. DRAPER: As a trustee, don't you think

9 this would be important information for you to know?

10 A I don't know if they were relevant or not, as a

11 trustee. If there's a problem with it, I assume we had

12 attorneys that represented us that would advise us on

13 those. I -- my past practices, we had appraisals done

14 and everything else. I assumed it was the same. I guess

15 assumptions.

16 Q But my question is: As a trustee, don't you

17 think this would be important information for you to know

18 if they needed to be renegotiated?

19 A I'm not sure.

20 Q Wayne --

21 MR. DRAPER: I'm going introduce a document,

22 Mr. Chairman, into evidence. Wayne Catalano testified

23 under direct as a character witness for Mike McCarron.

24 I'm going to give Wayne Catalano, as well as the rest of

25 the committee, a document. So would you please get that


1 document. And I would ask that this document be

2 submitted in our binder as the last exhibit of the second

3 binder, please.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I believe that's number 70.

5 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, I ask we have the

6 opportunity to review the document before it's

7 distributed to the witness.

8 MR. DRAPER: I'm going to distribute it to

9 everyone.

10 MS. GRIFFIN: I ask that we have an opportunity

11 to review it prior to it being distributed to the

12 witness. We have no idea what the contents of this

13 document is.

14 MR. DRAPER: The document is a letter,

15 Mr. Chairman, that was mailed today to every member of

16 the Southwest Regional Council regarding a supervision

17 hearing that's going to be conducted in October.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: Give me a second to review it.

19 MR. DRAPER: You've got it.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. I don't see anything

21 here, do you? Ms. Griffin, I don't see anything. Do you

22 have any objections?

23 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, this is a document

24 that's dated September 11th of 2013. Mr. Draper just

25 indicated this was mailed --


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Today.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: -- today. I don't see the

3 relevance of introducing this to this witness. I don't

4 mind it being introduced as an exhibit. But I just can't

5 imagine where it would go in the cross of this witness.

6 We didn't bring this up in our direct. It has no

7 relevance whatsoever. Again, I don't have any objection

8 to it being introduced as an exhibit, but I do object to

9 any of our witnesses being questioned about this

10 document.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Go ahead.

12 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman --

13 THE CHAIRMAN: We're going to allow it.

14 MR. DRAPER: Okay. Very good.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: We've allowed a lot of

16 documents.

17 MR. DRAPER: Again, Mr. Chairman, he was a

18 character witness for Mr. McCarron. This document, I

19 think would impugn the character of Mr. McCarron. So I

20 want the -- did the court reporter get a copy of that?

21 THE REPORTER: Not yet.

22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to read

23 it.

24 THE CHAIRMAN: Sure. How about we take 10

25 minutes until 4:00, give you a chance to read it.


1 Sonja, please document it for Number 70.

2 Ms. Griffin?

3 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, this is a 15, 16,

4 17-page correspondence. We need an opportunity to review

5 this in more than 10 or 15 minutes. It's going to take

6 me at least a half hour to read through it.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: We'll recess until 4:15.


9 (Brief recess.)

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Back on the record.

11 Where's your witness?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: I'd like to know the decision,

13 please.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: On?

15 MS. GRIFFIN: Whether or not to allow this

16 document to be distributed to the witness.

17 MR. THARP: It's already been distributed.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: It will be allowed.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: Okay. Mr. Chairman?


21 MS. GRIFFIN: This document has been introduced

22 in an attempt to sway the trial committee, and this is a

23 correspondence that has been produced regarding an

24 ongoing investigation for a trial that has not begun. We

25 haven't had the time to review this document, and we


1 haven't had the time to prepare a defense to this

2 document. This document is for informational purposes

3 only. This document was mailed to the members on

4 September 11th of 2013. It is 12 pages long, and has

5 attachments that are not available to us at this time.

6 This lengthy document clearly was not developed

7 over the last few days. Mr. Draper had an opportunity to

8 enter this document into evidence prior to now. This

9 document is regarding a supervision hearing and not 14(D)

10 charges that we are here for today. This information is

11 unverified, and I request this document not be allowed

12 into evidence, and that none of our witnesses view it,

13 other than the damage that is it already been done by its

14 premature distribution. This is improper testimony to

15 sway the trial panel and the witnesses.

16 Also, I would like to go on the record saying

17 that Mr. Draper takes break and confers with counsel

18 across the hall at various times throughout these

19 proceedings.

20 THE CHAIRMAN: Well, Ms. Griffin, the committee

21 allowed you to enter your entire binder of documents

22 which were unverifiable as well. We took them on face

23 value. All right. Brother Draper says this goes to the

24 issue of character. We're going to give him some

25 latitude and see where it goes. If we need to reel him


1 in, we will. I think we did the same thing for both

2 sides yesterday. We gave everybody the opportunity to

3 wander, in interest of trying to get out whatever

4 information both sides want to. So we're going to

5 continue at this point.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, in the interest of

7 us not being here through next week, I'd like to request

8 this document be distributed to all of our witnesses in

9 the room so they can review it prior to their coming in

10 here for their testimony. Would that be acceptable?

11 MR. DRAPER: I didn't hear the question,

12 Mr. Chairman.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: The question was: Could all

14 their witnesses have the document ahead of time to have

15 an opportunity to review it?

16 MR. DRAPER: I absolutely have no problem with

17 it.

18 THE CHAIRMAN: It was mailed to all the members

19 based on what I see here.

20 MR. DRAPER: Starting probably tomorrow they'll

21 be getting it.

22 MS. GRIFFIN: I agree.

23 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. So both sides in

24 agreement on that?

25 MR. DRAPER: We don't have a problem.


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Committee is okay.

2 MR. THARP: Yeah, that's fine.

3 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. Bob, can we have enough

4 copies produced?

5 How many copies would be like, Ms. Griffin?

6 MS. GRIFFIN: 10.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: 10, 12.

8 MR. LAUFENBERG: I'll do that. Do you want the

9 witness back in here?

10 THE CHAIRMAN: Yeah. We're ready to continue.

11 Ms. Griffin, do you --

12 MS. GRIFFIN: If they can be brought to me

13 after this witness. We can take a quick break and I'll

14 just distribute them.


16 He went down the hall to get the witness and

17 get the copies made.

18 Actually, when you get the copies, why don't

19 you bring them in and give them to Brother McCarron's

20 side.

21 Everybody ready?

22 Brother Catalano, we're on the record and

23 you're still under oath.

24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, if you'd like to


1 continue, please.

2 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Thank you for coming back,

3 Wayne. Have you had a chance to review that document,

4 Wayne?

5 A I've gone through it, yes.

6 Q Okay. I'm just going to ask you a few

7 questions about some topics in that document. Okay?

8 A Okay.

9 Q Then I'm going to ask you what your opinion is.

10 Okay?

11 In that document it talks about Mike McCarron

12 and Larry O'Brien having automobiles in three different

13 cities that are parked in parking lots for their

14 convenience. In that document it talks about some of the

15 parking bills, when they go to pick them up, and bring

16 them out, and then take them back, exceeds $1,000 each.

17 Now, keep in mind, we have three expensive

18 automobiles for their convenience and we have parking

19 bills that exceed a thousand dollars.

20 Would you say that is awful excessive?

21 A If they're true, yes.

22 Q Then if that's true, would you say they're

23 excessive?

24 A But not knowing the circumstances, I still

25 would reserve on my answer.


1 Q But I'm just saying, in your opinion they would

2 be excessive; is that correct?

3 A If they couldn't justify the reason for it.

4 Q Well, is there some way you can justify leaving

5 three cars --

6 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. He answered the

7 question.


9 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Is there some way you can

10 justify having cars in three different cities and running

11 up parking bills between the times you use them of over a

12 thousand dollars?

13 A Mike, I'm going to be perfectly honest, I'm

14 loyal to Mike, and these are accusations that have not

15 been proven. And I'm reluctant to make remarks on them

16 without having any chance to talk to the accused about

17 them because I do highly respect him. I respect you

18 enough, I would not do the same thing to you, Mike. I'm

19 sorry.

20 Q Okay. One of the things in there talks about a

21 garage that was built for vehicles used by Mike McCarron

22 and Larry O'Brien in Denver, and it cost $78,000 to build

23 that garage. Rarely is that garage ever used.

24 Would that bother you if that was a fact?

25 A If it were a fact, probably yes.


1 Q Let me talk about lines of credit. Were you

2 aware, as a trustee or a member, that Mike McCarron

3 unilaterally extended lines of credit for companies Santa

4 Clarita, Best Interiors, Towne, Garner Morrison, and

5 collateralized lines of credit with Council CD's with no

6 security to back up those lines of credit.

7 Did you know that?

8 A No, I did not.

9 Q Now, I think these may exceed $3 million.

10 Would that bother you if that were a fact?

11 A Once again, without the defendant being able to

12 explain it, there have been situations in this

13 Brotherhood that I know of where the Collective

14 Bargaining Agreement works to their benefit. So having

15 been in negotiations, I will not respond one way or the

16 other.

17 Q But I want you to understand what this means,

18 Wayne.

19 A I'm trying.

20 Q A company comes to Mike McCarron, Santa

21 Clarita, and tells Mike McCarron that, I need a line of

22 credit, but I have no credit, so could you put up some

23 money from the Council to secure that line of credit at a

24 bank, Western -- Pacific Western Bank, and I'm going to

25 draw money against that, but I'm not going to give you


1 any collateral to guarantee that loan. You just put the

2 line of credit up.

3 Now, if he did that unilaterally, if that's a

4 fact, would that bother you?

5 A You say he did it? Has he been convicted?

6 Q I said he did it -- we'll prove he did it. I

7 said if -- my question to you, Wayne --

8 A Once again.

9 Q My question isn't for you to determine whether

10 he did it or not.

11 A I refuse to respond to it.

12 Q Okay. You're not going to respond to that?

13 A No, sir.

14 Q Okay. You're not going respond to the fact you

15 think it would be wrong?

16 A That's right.

17 Q Well, would you be upset to know that in the

18 Santa Clarita situation, they defaulted and the Council

19 lost $200,000 --

20 MR. GRIFFIN: Objection.

21 THE WITNESS: I will no longer respond -- I

22 will not respond to any accusations in this without Mike

23 being able to give an explanation why it was done. So I

24 refuse to respond to it.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman, they're presenting


1 no facts. Please --

2 THE WITNESS: With all due respect, Mike.

3 MS. GRIFFIN: This is a joke.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, let me ask the

5 witness: Are you going to answer any questions that

6 relate to this document?

7 THE WITNESS: No.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: You're not, okay.

9 MR. DRAPER: Let the record show that the

10 witness refused to answer anymore questions regarding

11 that document.

12 MS. GRIFFIN: Let the record show that this

13 document is unverified and hasn't been fact checked, and

14 it is for an ongoing investigation that hasn't even gone

15 to trial.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, we've allowed a lot

17 of documents today that were unverified. We're trying to

18 give both sides enough latitude to put their case on, so

19 that the committee has whatever information is out there

20 and that we can sift through and identify what is

21 verifiable.

22 Brother Draper, anything for else for this

23 witness?

24 MR. DRAPER: Yes, I do. Hold on, Mr. Chairman,

25 if you would.



2 Q BY MR. DRAPER: During your testimony, Brother

3 Catalano, you were asked about John DeCarlo; is that

4 correct?

5 A I was asked about John DeCarlo?

6 Q Or you made --

7 A I made a statement, but I don't recall anybody

8 asking a question.

9 Q Okay. Is John DeCarlo a lawyer?

10 A Yes, he is.

11 Q Okay. John DeCarlo did not decide the rents,

12 to the best of your knowledge, did he?

13 A No.

14 Q Before 2012, Mike never asked John DeCarlo --

15 A Wait. I don't know. Let me back up. I don't

16 know whether he did or not.

17 Q Before 2012, Mike never asked John DeCarlo to

18 conduct an investigation whether these leases satisfied

19 ERISA?

20 A I don't know.

21 Q You never hired John DeCarlo to conduct an

22 ERISA compliance review, did you, as a trustee?

23 A No.

24 Q During your direct you had talked a bit about

25 Peter Aylward. Do you know who Peter Aylward is? I


1 think the word QPAM, does that help?

2 A I don't know if I heard it or not.

3 Q Did you know that Peter Aylward was hired as a

4 QPAM to represent the Training Trust in December of 2012?

5 A I -- I'm trying to think if that was the

6 company that was doing the appraisals. Have I got the

7 companies mixed up?

8 Q No.

9 A Okay. So --

10 Q So you don't know anything about Peter Aylward?

11 A Not at this moment that I can recall.

12 Q Okay. Did you attend the Trust -- Training

13 Trust meeting in 2012 December?

14 A I believe I might have been excused from that

15 one. I'd have to check.

16 Q Okay. The record would reflect that then.

17 A Pardon me?

18 Q I assume the record would reflect who was

19 there?

20 A I was there?

21 Q I say it would if you were there?

22 A It's possible I wasn't because -- I'm trying to

23 think.

24 Q Have you attended any Trust Fund meetings since

25 December of 2012?


1 A Yes, I was at the June one.

2 Q Do you know if Peter Aylward --

3 A He's the land guy, isn't he?

4 Q Peter Aylward is the QPAM for the Trust.

5 A I'm not familiar with that.

6 Q Okay. All right. I'll be done in just a

7 minute, Wayne.

8 Have you spoken to Mike McCarron this week,

9 Wayne?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Did he discuss these proceedings with you?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What did Mike McCarron tell you about these

14 proceedings?

15 A Mike, that he is not guilty of what's happening

16 here, that he feels it's a personal family feud. That's

17 the way I've heard it.

18 Q During the course of these proceedings, did he

19 tell you how it was going?

20 A I don't know if he has knowledge of how it's

21 going. Hopefully he thinks it's going in his favor, but

22 he hasn't directly indicated to me one way or another.

23 Q So he hasn't talked to you one way or another

24 how these proceedings have been going the last couple of

25 days?


1 A Could you be more specific, Mike, in what

2 you're asking?

3 Q I assume you've had conversations with him in

4 the last few days, haven't you?

5 A Yes.

6 Q Did Mike McCarron make any statements about how

7 the proceedings are going to date before you got on?

8 A I think going well for him I guess.

9 Q Did Mike McCarron tell you anything about

10 Justin Weidner's testimony?

11 A I refuse to answer.

12 Q Did Mike McCarron tell you anything about Randy

13 Sowell's testimony?

14 A I refuse to answer.

15 Q Did Mike McCarron tell you anything about

16 anybody -- any other witness's testimony?

17 A No.

18 Q Did you discuss your testimony with Mike

19 McCarron?

20 A Not Mike McCarron, his advisor.

21 Q You did not talk to -- about your testimony

22 with Mike McCarron. Is that your statement under oath?

23 A My testimony, no, I don't believe so. Not Mike

24 directly.

25 Q Are you aware in yesterday's proceedings that


1 Mike McCarron stated on the record that he was not going

2 to testify in these proceedings?

3 A No, I'm not aware of that.

4 Q Don't you think Mike McCarron should provide

5 his side of the story?

6 A At this point, I don't know what his decision

7 was for it. So I don't have any opinion what he chooses.

8 MR. DRAPER: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: Any redirect, Ms. Griffin?

10 MS. GRIFFIN: Only just a few more questions

11 and hopefully we'll get you out of here.

12

13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

14 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

15 Q I'm really not even going to address this,

16 except to ask you one simple question about it. Did you

17 know or were you aware that James Bernsen, the past

18 Southwest Regional Council, not Mike McCarron, made those

19 -- extended those lines of credit to SCI, Best Interiors,

20 and Towne Construction?

21 A No, I know nothing about it.

22 Q Wayne, are you aware that after an extensive

23 organizing campaign, when we signed a contractor, they

24 were almost broke and needed a line of credit?

25 A I don't know that I was directly involved in


1 those type of things, so I don't know.

2 Q Wayne, does the Training Fund have a director?

3 A Training Center, yes.

4 Q Does the Training Fund have an executive

5 administrator?

6 A I'm not sure of that title, if they do or

7 don't. The director, yes, I know of from the past.

8 Q Do you believe it is the responsibility of Mike

9 McCarron, as a trustee to the Fund, the same capacity as

10 you are, to explain the leases to you in this capacity as

11 a trustee?

12 A Explain what?

13 Q The leases to you, as his capacity as the

14 trustee?

15 A I never gave it a thought. I thought that was

16 handled between the attorneys and executive officer and

17 director. I just assumed they had the appraisals. That

18 what the past practices were. We had one at the

19 beginning of the ten-year lease. That was the practice.

20 Q Wayne, who do you believe negotiates and signs

21 the property leases for the Training Fund?

22 A I thought the -- I thought the executive

23 secretary and the director, with the other people

24 involved with, the appraisers and that.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: All right. Thank you. No


1 further questions.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Any additional cross, Brother

3 Draper?

4 MR. DRAPER: I just have a question for Wayne.

5

6 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. DRAPER:

8 Q Wayne, if an employer goes delinquent in their

9 contribution -- you've had that happen when you were

10 working for the council; is that correct? It's the

11 Trust's obligation to collect those delinquencies; isn't

12 that correct?

13 A That is correct.

14 Q In your capacity, because you were supervising

15 several people, you had negotiated contracts -- I know

16 what your career was, Wayne -- is that correct?

17 A Yes.

18 Q Did you ever attempt to remove unilaterally a

19 contractor in your area from a delinquency with the

20 Trust?

21 A No.

22 Q There is a delinquency committee; isn't there?

23 A Correct.

24 Q So if a delinquent employer wanted to make a

25 request to waive liquidated damages, make a payment plan,


1 ask to have interest removed, they could do that through

2 a delinquency committee; is that correct?

3 A That is correct.

4 Q And that's a proper procedure, isn't it?

5 A To the best of my knowledge, yes.

6 Q So it would certainly, in no way, shape, or

7 form, be proper for Mike McCarron, or anybody else in the

8 organization, to go in unilaterally and tell a Trust to

9 remove somebody from the delinquency; isn't that correct?

10 A I would think so, yes.

11 MR. DRAPER: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman.

12 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Catalano -- Ms. Griffin?

13 MS. GRIFFIN: Just one last question.

14

15 FURTHER REDIRECT

16 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

17 Q Wayne, did you know that Doug McCarron paid $5

18 million to Raymond Interiors?

19 A I'm not aware of that.

20 MS. GRIFFIN: No more questions.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Catalano, thank you for

22 your service to the committee. We appreciate it.

23 MR. DRAPER: Thank you, Wayne. Say hello to

24 your wife.

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Who's the next witness?


1 MR. THARP: Wayne, it's been years. I may

2 never see you again. It's good to see you.

3 MR. DRAPER: Wayne, thank you for coming in.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: You know what, before we take a

5 five-minute break --

6 THE WITNESS: Should I show up at the Trust

7 meeting?

8 MR. DRAPER: You should do whatever you're job

9 is, Wayne.

10 THE WITNESS: Okay. I just want to make sure.

11 Nobody has contacted me.

12 MR. DRAPER: If you have a Trust meeting next

13 week, you go.

14 THE WITNESS: Okay.

15 MR. DRAPER: Thanks, Wayne. I understand. If

16 you got a Trust meeting next week, you go to the Trust

17 meeting, Wayne.

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we break, before we go

20 off the record, Ms. Griffin, I just want to say, you've

21 challenged the document. And the committee is going to

22 look at this as just what it is, it's a document that has

23 allegations. We recognize none of them have been proven.

24 But we've allowed both sides to enter documents, and

25 that's what it is, in our opinion. Okay.



2 MR. THARP: I would like to also, for it to be

3 on the record, that while Mr. Draper has a break in his

4 office, the committee is meeting in the residence

5 officer's office, which is behind the locked door very

6 far down the hall. We're not meeting in the same room or

7 anything like that.


9 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, for the record,

10 there is no attorneys in this building, has not been in

11 this building, and will not be in the building during of

12 course of this hearing.

13 MS. GRIFFIN: We understand that there's no

14 on-and-off appliances allowed in here, but there is a

15 landline. We won't get into that. It's clear what's

16 going on.

17 Regarding your statement, thank you. And my

18 reference was just merely that they have consulted with

19 counsel in whatever means they need to consult with

20 counsel.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Okay. Are we ready for the

22 five-minute break?


24 THE CHAIRMAN: Off the record.

25 (Brief recess.)


1 THE CHAIRMAN: Back on the record. Good

2 afternoon.

3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Welcome.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 THE CHAIRMAN: That's the witness station. We

7 ask that you stand for a second and give the court

8 reporter your name and the spelling and be sworn in.

9 THE WITNESS: Benjamin Rodriguez.

10 B-e-n-j-a-m-i-n R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z.

11 THE REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear that the

12 testimony you shall give in these proceedings shall be

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so

14 help you God?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes.

16 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Please be seated.

17 Ms. Griffin, please.

18

19 BENJAMIN RODRIGUEZ,

20 called as a witness by the accused party, after having

21 been duly sworn, testified as follows:

22

23 DIRECT EXAMINATION

24 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

25 Q Ben, can you tell us how long you've been a


1 member of the Carpenters Union?

2 A Been a member since 1976, the summer --

3 sometime in the summertime.

4 Q Are you currently employed with the Carpenters

5 Union?

6 A No.

7 Q When was the last time you worked for the

8 Carpenter's Union?

9 A September 31st, 2008.

10 Q So you have over 30 years as a member with the

11 Carpenters Union?

12 A Yes.

13 Q What was your position?

14 A Well, in the beginning I was a drywaller. And

15 at the end I was a special rep for the Southwest Regional

16 Council of Carpenters.

17 Q What were your duties in that position?

18 A Well, there was a lot of different duties

19 depending on the situation. A lot of the time I spent

20 was organizing as a special rep. We sought out some

21 targets throughout the Southern California area where I

22 lived, and tried to gather information and picked out

23 targets of companies that were nonsignatory. And get

24 information on the job sites, locations and so forth,

25 gather information of some of their employees, and if


1 possible, try to get them to become members and so forth.

2 Q Ben, how do you know Mike McCarron?

3 A Mike McCarron, I've known him since the early

4 '80s. I ran across him -- well, first, I used to see him

5 at the union meetings all the time. I made it a habit

6 almost from the beginning as an apprentice. I'd see him

7 and his buddies, they actively attended and sat in the

8 front row all the time. I was more of a back-row-type of

9 guy, but I saw him. And on occasions I ran into him on

10 job sites. In the first years weeks I worked in the

11 residential sector and eventually I made the transition

12 and I worked in the commercial sector. And that's where

13 I ran into him and several of his friends at the time

14 working in commercial jobs.

15 Q Okay. Are you friends with Mike McCarron

16 outside of work?

17 A I am friends with him, but not outside of work.

18 We have a lot in common. I was trained by him when I was

19 first hired. And in the process of getting to know each

20 other we learned we had a lot in common and we had a lot

21 of conversations, even after the training stopped and so

22 forth. We'd get together and go to breakfast or dinner

23 or some other activities, and, you know, we'd sit and

24 talk.

25 I've known his -- I've met his wife a long time


1 ago, and I've known his girls ever since they were little

2 girls. So he's known my boys and my daughter also, if he

3 remembers them. But he came over my house when I got

4 hired in '87. I was living in Whittier. A few days

5 after I got hired there was a Whittier earthquake. I

6 gave him the tour through uptown Whittier to see all the

7 devastation that the Whittier earthquake caused and he

8 was in shock. Then, throughout the years, we spent a lot

9 of time talking about certain subjects of history and so

10 forth. And he took interest in my conversation. I'm

11 kind of a history buff of some sort.

12 Q What is your opinion of Mike McCarron's

13 reputation in the Brotherhood?

14 A I have a high regard for him, and respect.

15 When he first trained me, you know, he took the bull by

16 the horns. He'd enter job sites without hesitation,

17 without fear, and talk to members, and talk to nonunion

18 members or nonunion carpenters and so forth. And I

19 learned because he taught me by example, you know. And

20 he was very knowledgeable in the industry and so forth.

21 Later on, I found out that he had taken -- or

22 was taking some labor classes through, I guess,

23 Los Angeles Technical College, over there. And I started

24 taking classes over there myself. And I learned a lot

25 about labor history and so forth. But, you know, he led


1 by example. He went to school and learned more stuff,

2 and I did pretty much the same, you know. It was

3 something that was really helpful to me to be

4 knowledgeable in the subject and to be knowledgeable

5 about the contracts that we service and so forth.

6 And at that time, the demographics were

7 changed, and my skills of speaking Spanish were very

8 necessary a lot of times. I was assigned to go to

9 certain projects and job sites where mostly

10 Spanish-speaking workers were there. And, you know, I

11 guess I was respected of my presence and my attitude

12 toward workers and so forth. But I learned by his

13 example, you know.

14 Also, in the picket lines, you know, he wasn't

15 always in the back row. He was right up front with the

16 rest of us, you know, and so forth.

17 Q Thank you.

18 A So I have a high regard for the man.

19 Q Ben, can you tell us what your reaction to the

20 charges against Mike were?

21 A Not to the full extent. I don't know all the

22 particulars. I've been retired for a little over five

23 years. And I do attend local meetings at 1506 and at

24 721, which is close to my house. But I was in -- I was

25 in shock as to these charges. I couldn't believe it.


1 Not knowing how he was, you know, I could not believe it.

2 And even to this day I don't believe that it's what was

3 written down on the charges.

4 Q Ben, do you know Doug McCarron?

5 A Oh, yes. I've known Doug McCarron since the

6 '70s, the mid '70s.

7 Q When is the last time you spoke with Doug

8 McCarron?

9 A Spoke in conversation, I really don't recall.

10 But I see him on a regular basis at the local, and we

11 shake hands, "Hi, how are you doing," this and that. On

12 occasion he goes to delegate meetings, which I'm still

13 invited to attend. And we sit and talk briefly about so

14 and so, this or that, or someone that passed way or died,

15 but nothing of real significance.

16 Q Ben, are you aware that Doug and Mike were

17 estranged?

18 A Well, I was surprised about that, you know, and

19 I'm bothered by it. I thought between the two of them,

20 personally, I think they are the greatest labor leaders

21 of our time, you know, by far. And I see and listen to

22 other unions and read about the jealousies against Doug,

23 against Mike, for their accomplishments.

24 And just this morning I was walking outside a

25 little bit and I turned around and I looked at these


1 buildings over here, and I'm proud to be part of this

2 organization.

3 I remember the first time I went to Washington

4 and I saw the old building, and I took a liking to it.

5 And I guess I'm kind of sentimental. When I found out

6 they were tearing it down and building a new one, I was

7 crushed, I was hurt. But later on in another location

8 when I went to Washington, I saw the big, beautiful new

9 building, and I was like, "Wow."

10 I was really impressed by, you know, what -- I

11 think Doug McCarron being in charge of the International,

12 brought to the Brotherhood, prosperity, new systems and

13 technology and so forth, you know. And I'm like, wow,

14 this is a guy that I used to run across in the field --

15 in the tracks is what we used to call them. We used to

16 have residential drywall for the same contractors, you

17 know.

18 So we knew each other, we crossed paths, we

19 worked for the same contractors, and we had a mutual

20 respect for each other. But we'd see each other at the

21 union meetings all the time. Now I see him in his

22 position, I'm impressed. I'm proud to say that I know

23 the man personally, you know. And if I walk up to him,

24 he knows my name, you know. And it's not been that I'm

25 after him all the time just to shake his hand. Everybody


1 else wants to shake his hand. So I pretty much leave him

2 alone. And when he has something to say, he'll come over

3 and talk to me, you know.

4 He assigned me a while back to a -- to a

5 project that was being done called the Alameda Corridor

6 in the Los Angeles area. And he wanted me to sit in on

7 some meetings because several unions were going to join

8 in this project that they were going to do, the

9 Los Angeles County Feds. It's a project called Alameda

10 Corridor. And each of the unions was going to put into

11 the pot a million dollars. And there must have been

12 about 10 or 12 unions that signed up for that project,

13 and they were going to distribute -- whoever we organize,

14 they were going to distribute the membership in some kind

15 of process that I didn't understand. But as the weeks

16 went by, less and less unions. They were dropping out.

17 Until it came to the point of the Teamsters and us, the

18 carpenters, that we had the money there at the county

19 fed. I let Doug know about it, and he immediately made

20 some phone calls and withdrew from that project, too.

21 It's no sense, it's just being in there with the

22 Teamsters.

23 If it was a whole team of unions, that's fine,

24 but he withdrew. And I had mixed feelings, thinking I

25 might have screwed up because we pulled out of it. And


1 it was the right decision to make. Later on I found out

2 it was the right decision. We didn't want to throw a

3 million dollars away from our organization.

4 He had someone to attend these meetings. He

5 valued my opinion, and I told him the truth, and he

6 withdrew and that was it. He didn't have any anger

7 towards me about it because it wasn't my fault but -- you

8 know.

9 Q Thank you, Ben.

10 Have you ever seen Mike McCarron threaten

11 anyone?

12 A Nope. No.

13 Q Have you ever seen --

14 A Not in all the years I've known him.

15 Q Have you ever seen Mike McCarron dress down an

16 employee in front of other employees?

17 A No, not that I recall.

18 Q Have you ever witnessed erratic behavior from

19 Mike McCarron?

20 A Not in all the years that I've known him, no.

21 Q Ben, were you told by any current employee of

22 the Carpenters Union that it would not be a good idea to

23 testify in Mike's defense?

24 A Yes. Yes, I have been told that. I was told

25 that I guess my reputation would go down if I supported


1 him, if I back him up. But in my heart, I feel like I

2 have to do what is right.

3 Q Do you believe this employee had information

4 that was going on inside of this room?

5 A I'm certain he did. I'm certain he did

6 because, you know, I don't know where he would have

7 gotten ahold of it. But he did have that information.

8 Q Ben, there was a document provided to you

9 earlier today; correct?

10 A Yes.

11 Q Did any employee of the Carpenters Union make

12 you aware of this document prior to today?

13 A Well, unfortunately, it was just given to me a

14 few minutes ago. And I just started reading it, the

15 first couple of pages. I haven't gone through. And I

16 don't know exactly all the details that it has in there

17 and the allegations or accusations and so forth.

18 Q Ben, let me ask the question again. Did any

19 employee of the Carpenters Union make you aware that

20 there may be a document coming out --

21 A Yeah.

22 Q -- prior to today?

23 A Yeah.

24 MS. GRIFFIN: I have no further questions of

25 this witness. In light of this testimony, I would like


1 to call for an immediate recess until tomorrow. I'm very

2 concerned about the response to the last few questions,

3 that it appears to be witness tampering. Unbelievable,

4 Mr. Chairman.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, any cross?

6 MR. DRAPER: Yes, I have cross.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: I would like to hold the cross

8 until tomorrow.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: We're going finish this witness

10 tonight.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: This witness has clearly been

12 contacted by somebody inside the Carpenters Union, and

13 he's been threatened by his reputation if he proceeds.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Let's go off the record a

15 second.


17 THE CHAIRMAN: Back on the record, Sonja.

18 Ms. Griffin, your comments are certainly noted

19 by the committee, and we're going talk about that a

20 little more. But we're going to let Brother Draper put

21 his cross on first, then we'll come back to that issue.

22 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Chairman?


24 MS. GRIFFIN: Since we are going to be

25 continuing, I've had a few minutes to think about this


1 most recent testimony. I have a few other questions I'd

2 like to include.


4 Q BY MS. GRIFFIN: Ben, can you tell us what was

5 discussed in this conversation?

6 A It was discussed that I shouldn't be in Vegas.

7 That I'm making a big mistake to come over here, you

8 know. I've kind of kept a low profile over -- I've never

9 had recent contacts with Mike, telling him, hey, Mike I'm

10 coming down to the meeting.

11 I did attend the last union meeting at 1506.

12 And in all honestly, I didn't like what was said, but I

13 did take interest, you know. And the unfairness and the

14 treatment that was given to him there at the local, it

15 seemed to me that it was orchestrated and unfair. And I

16 felt real bad.

17 So apparently I guess I felt in my heart that I

18 owe the man, you know. I worked with him, and later on I

19 worked for him. And he was fair with me. Matter of

20 fact, he was good to me. And like I said, I have always

21 considered him a friend.

22 And in several occasions, I walked right into

23 his office or I'd knock if the door was locked, and he'd

24 say, hey, come on in. He'd sit me down and we'd talk

25 over a few things. So I thought that was pretty good of


1 a boss to -- you know, I have problems here, I've got

2 problems there.

3 So any ways, going back to the question here.

4 I was told a number of other things. I don't recall

5 everything, but "Ben, this fucking guy is going to go to

6 prison. You ought to see all the charges. You got to

7 read this letter that's coming out," you know.

8 And he told me to talk to Frank Hawk in the

9 morning to see if I can get a copy so I can be more

10 knowledgeable as to what's going on, because I don't know

11 everything and exactly what the accusations are. But

12 what I have heard, and a letter that was put out, I

13 guess, to all members of the District Council, and stuff

14 like that, someone gave me a copy of it. And I couldn't

15 believe what I read from Doug Banes and -- so I took

16 interest, and I took upon myself. I told my wife, I go,

17 you come with me, we're going to go to Vegas for a few

18 days and so forth.

19 But this conversation definitely told me, "Go

20 and talk to Frank Hawk" -- and I did it first thing this

21 morning -- "about that letter." I thought it was a

22 single-page letter, but what was handed to me was much

23 more than a single page. I haven't had a chance to read

24 the whole thing. But I will look through it thoroughly

25 and see what it's all about.


1 Q So Ben, this intimidation did not persuade you

2 from being here today, did it?

3 A No, no, no, no.

4 Q How were you contacted by this person?

5 A Well, this person, I consider him a friend,

6 occasionally we go to Dodgers games, I gave up my tickets

7 tomorrow night for that, but that's another story.

8 He called me up and he was telling me, "Ben,

9 don't do it. Don't go out there. Your credibility is

10 going to go down. Everybody has a high regard for you,"

11 and so forth.

12 And I told him, "You know what, I got to do

13 what I got to do. And I got to do what is right." So I

14 decided to stay, you know. But I will be looking through

15 that entire letter to be more knowledge. If I was up

16 tomorrow, tomorrow I'd be more eloquent in my

17 presentation and knowledgeable in this subject matter,

18 you know. But I don't know if it would turn me around,

19 you know, I haven't read it. Nothing I've read so far or

20 heard, you know, has changed my mind so far.

21 Q Ben, how long was this conversation with this

22 individual that worked for the Carpenters Union?

23 A I can only guess that it was maybe 15 minutes

24 or better, 15 to 20 minutes.

25 Q Did this individual advise you not testify?


1 A Yes. Yes, that's one of the things repeated

2 several times in the conversation.

3 Q Did he want to know anything about Mike's case?

4 A Yes. He seemed to be very knowledgeable on

5 everything, you know, as to -- well, he covered a variety

6 of subjects. I didn't memorize them all, but he was very

7 knowledgeable on the subject.

8 Q Did he discuss Mike McCarron with you?

9 A Could you be more specific on that?

10 Q In the conversation, and in your testimony a

11 few minutes ago, you he mentioned he said Mike McCarron

12 was explicit and was going to go to prison -- could go to

13 prison, or something to that effect.

14 What else did you say about Mike McCarron, if

15 anything?

16 A He mentioned that it had been going on for

17 quite some time now, you know. And that it all came to a

18 halt on whatever date you mentioned, you know. And --

19 but, like I said, it was just a conversation. I didn't

20 take notes or anything like that. But he did know a lot

21 about specific things, you know. And probably after I

22 read this paper that came out, I will recall more of the

23 things that he mentioned if he already had knowledge of

24 that paper.

25 Q Did this individual reference Mr. Draper during


1 this conversation that you can recall or reference?

2 A Yes. Yes.

3 Q Do you recall what that conversation

4 referencing Mr. Draper was about?

5 A Well, in all honesty, I mentioned myself, you

6 know, that because I had heard that Mr. Draper, Mike

7 Draper, was going to be retiring, you know. But before

8 he retired, he was summoned to take this case or this

9 assignment. And I mentioned to him that I was very

10 disappointed for Mr. Draper to take this assignment, that

11 he should have retired before taking this assignment and

12 walk away with his head upright, you know.

13 After all this is over and done with, it's a

14 shameful thing for him to be doing this to a man who he

15 highly praised at one time. And I was there -- well, not

16 one time, maybe several times. Because he was invited as

17 a speaker to a Regional Council. And he probably took

18 and spoke and he highly praised our Regional Council and

19 its prosperity and its training and so forth.

20 And I mentioned to him, you know, he's going to

21 regret ever taking this assignment. He's going to walk

22 out in shame by doing what he's doing. He should have

23 did it with before -- he should have retired before he

24 took this assignment.

25 Q Do you recall this individual's response to


1 that?

2 A Yes. He respond, "No, Mr. Draper is on the" --

3 "Mike Draper is on the right side. He knows what is

4 going on, and he is going to retire with his head

5 upright," you know, contrary to what I had just said, you

6 know. And he highly praised Mr. Draper for what he's

7 doing in this case.

8 Q Did this individual provide an opinion about

9 how this case is going?

10 A Yes, he did. He said that all the evidence is

11 indicating against Mike. That there's no way that he is

12 going to be able to come through with flying colors on

13 this case.

14 Q Did this individual mention my name -- you know

15 my name, India Griffin?

16 A Yes.

17 Q -- in this conversation that you recall?

18 A You know, I don't recall. I don't recall.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: I have no further questions for

20 this witness.

21 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, cross, please.

22

23 CROSS-EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. DRAPER:

25 Q Ben, how are you doing?


1 A All things considered --

2 Q We've known each over a long time?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You know that I'm the one who filed charges

5 against Mike McCarron?

6 A I -- I -- as I understood, it was Doug Banes

7 that -- and that you were assigned to implement the

8 charges.

9 Q No. I filed 14(D) charges, so you understand.

10 I'm the one that filed the charges.

11 A Okay. Not having read the paper --

12 Q Okay. To clarify, Mr. Banes ordered the

13 emergency supervision.

14 A Okay.

15 Q Okay. Just for clarification.

16 A Okay.

17 Q While it's fresh on your mind, first off, did

18 anyone that's a party to these proceedings, meaning a

19 party to these proceedings are the folks in this room,

20 ever call you and talk about you coming here and giving

21 testimony?

22 A No.

23 Q Did Phil Newkirk?

24 A No.

25 Q Did I?


1 A No.

2 Q Nobody on the panel?

3 A No, I don't know them by name.

4 Q So there's no party here. And you indicated it

5 was a friend of yours that called?

6 A I indicated, yes, just the other day.

7 Q That's what I'm talking about.

8 You testified it was a friend that called you?

9 A Right.

10 Q So -- and I don't know who this friend is, but

11 I assume he's given you some advice; is that correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Did he ever threaten physical harm against you?

14 A No.

15 Q You never felt threatened physically, that he

16 was going to do something?

17 A No.

18 Q Okay. Ben, how long have you been retired?

19 A I've been retired -- August 1st was five years.

20 Q So you haven't really been involved internally

21 in the union business for five years; is that correct?

22 A Right.

23 Q One of the issues that's the heart of this

24 matter on the 14(D) proceeding is leases regarding

25 training centers with the Training Trust. I'm going to


1 ask you kind of a general question.

2 Were you ever a trustee of any of the Training

3 Trusts?

4 A No.

5 Q Were you a member of the Executive Committee of

6 the Regional Council?

7 A No.

8 Q So would it be safe to say that you have no

9 knowledge about Training Trusts, leases, or matters

10 pertaining to the Training Trust, and the leases between

11 the Regional Council and Training Trust; is that a fair

12 assumption?

13 A Correct.

14 Q Okay.

15 A Those are leading questions, but you're right.

16 Q I just want to know --

17 A Is that correct?

18 Q Correct, it's yes or no. That's fine.

19 A Yes, correct.

20 Q You've answered them, I'm done.

21 A Right.

22 Q That's how simple it is.

23 You consider Mike a friend, don't you?

24 A Yes, I do.

25 Q I guess that's why you're here because he's


1 your friend?

2 A Right, yeah.

3 Q Okay. Okay. Ben, you were handed a letter

4 just before you came in here.

5 A Right.

6 Q It's a several-page letter --

7 A Uh-huh.

8 Q -- which is the supervision letter, which was

9 ordered by General Vice President Banes.

10 A Okay.

11 Q Okay. I will represent to you that all members

12 in the Southwest Council within the next couple of

13 days -- it was mailed out today -- will receive this

14 letter, this correspondence. Okay?

15 A Yes.

16 Q Have you got that letter with you?

17 A No. It's in the room.

18 Q Okay. Could someone hand Brother Rodriguez

19 that letter?

20 A Thank you.

21 Q There's several allegations outlined in that

22 letter that will be a part of the supervision hearing,

23 Ben --

24 A Uh-huh.

25 Q -- to determine whether supervision should


1 continue over the Southwest Regional Council. Okay?

2 A Okay.

3 Q That's what this hearing is going to be about.

4 And there are some specific things outlined. And there

5 is a reference in that letter to go online if you want to

6 read supporting documents about those specifics. Okay?

7 A Okay.

8 Q So these things aren't just dreamed up.

9 Let me ask a few examples here and just get

10 your opinion about something.

11 Assuming for a moment they're correct, Ben, and

12 I want you to answer with all honesty because I'm sure

13 that's probably what you'll do. The Council has

14 purchased three cars that are parked in various parking

15 facilities throughout the Regional Council in other

16 states, in the parking garage of the airport, so it's

17 convenient for Mike McCarron and Larry O'Brien when they

18 fly into that airport to pick the car up, go do their

19 duties, and come back, park the car.

20 So keep in mind, we have three cars, pretty

21 expensive to buy. You know how much cars are?

22 A Uh-huh.

23 Q Would it bother you to know that some of the

24 parking fees, when they checked those cars out, when they

25 get their -- exceed a thousand dollars? Would that be


1 troublesome for you?

2 A Seems quite a bit of money.

3 Q I mean if it was true, would that trouble you?

4 A It would.

5 Q Would it trouble you to know that a garage was

6 built in Denver at the cost of $78,000, it was built to

7 put one of those vehicles in it, and it's rarely used.

8 Would that bother you if that were a fact?

9 A Yes.

10 MS. GRIFFIN: Let the record state that it's

11 not a fact.


13 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, I asked him if that

14 were a fact.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I got it.

16 MR. DRAPER: Ben understood me.

17 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Didn't you, Ben?

18 A Uh-huh.

19 MS. GRIFFIN: I'm sorry. Mr. Draper just said

20 he asked if that was a fact. He didn't ask if that's a

21 fact --

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin, we could have the

23 court reporter read it back. But I thought what I heard

24 he said is if that were a fact.

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Correct, that's the question he


1 asked.

2 THE CHAIRMAN: I would ask you not give

3 testimony. You can object, you can go on the record.

4 But you can't just blurt out.

5 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Let me use another example.

6 Company named Santa Clarita. Would it bother you to know

7 that Mike extended a line of credit to the bank and used

8 a Council CD for that line of credit? In other words,

9 they put a Council CD up in Santa Clarita, borrowed money

10 up to the extent of that Council's CD?

11 A Uh-huh.

12 Q Santa Clarita went under and Council lost the

13 $200,000 CD, would that bother you, Ben?


15 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Would that bother you if that

16 were true?

17 MS. GRIFFIN: There's an inference that this is

18 factual. It's not.

19 Q BY MR. DRAPER: I said, would it bother you if

20 it was true?

21 A If it was true, I would like to know all the

22 details behind it.

23 Q Okay. All right. You will find out.

24 But it would probably bother you if it's true,

25 wouldn't it?


1 Let me ask you another question, Ben. When you

2 were an agent, were you required to turn in receipts for

3 expenses?

4 A Yes. Yes.

5 Q Monthly?

6 A Biweekly.

7 Q Biweekly.

8 A And I kept meticulous records, turned them in.

9 But in the last couple or two, three years they changed

10 the policy in the accounting office, and I no longer had

11 to do that. But I still kept those records for myself.

12 Q What was the policy changed to, Ben?

13 A I don't know why the county office no longer

14 required them.

15 Q Okay. Would it be that you went on a stipend

16 instead of a credit card receipt?

17 A I don't know what you mean by that.

18 Q A stipend means you received X amount of money

19 per week or every other week as an allowance and you were

20 responsible for the tax on the allowance up to the amount

21 you didn't pay expenses; correct?

22 A Right.

23 Q Now, were you aware that there were Council

24 representatives, kind of the senior staff, including Mike

25 McCarron, that had credit cards?


1 A I imagine so.

2 Q Okay. And there was a policy that everybody

3 who had a credit card had to turn receipts in. And both,

4 list who the charges were for, what the business nature

5 was and what the charges were for. In order to keep

6 documentation, that's the way you did it. Would that be

7 a fair way of doing things?

8 A I would imagine so.

9 Q Okay. Would it bother you to know that over a

10 period of time, Mike McCarron has extended $115,000 of

11 Council money which there is no receipts to cover those

12 expenses and no purpose for what them expenses were paid?

13 Would that bother you, Ben?

14 A Not having knowledge of this, you know, I don't

15 know why -- you know, I'm asking all this -- I'm being

16 asked these questions that I never was tied to or related

17 to.

18 Q I'm asking: If it were the truth, would it

19 bother you?

20 A I guess it would. But I wonder if it's a

21 common thing, that other Regional Councils, other

22 International reps, whatever, if they do the same. I

23 don't know.

24 Q Would it bother you to know that the Council --

25 that Mike McCarron had Justin Weidner order flowers for


1 his mother's funeral, God rest her soul, and his sister

2 in the amount of $1300 without approval of the Executive

3 Committee, would that bother you? I asked: Would that

4 bother you if that were a fact?

5 A If that were the fact, not knowing it, but if

6 that were the fact, yes, it would bother me.

7 Q Would it bother you to know that the average

8 bill for flowers for the Council, when they decorate the

9 office up pretty, runs between $714 a month? Would that

10 bother you, Ben?

11 A I'm being asked questions that I have no

12 knowledge.

13 Q I know. If that were true, would that bother

14 you, Ben?

15 A Yes. Everything would bother me, the light

16 bill would bother me, the trash would bother me because,

17 you know, I have no knowledge, no concept of this type of

18 business.

19 Q Okay. As you read through and go online to

20 look at the supporting documents, the things that I have

21 just talked to you about are in that document. And if

22 you go online, there's documents to support those

23 allegations. Okay?

24 A Uh-huh.

25 Q So I would -- I would hopefully, respectfully


1 hope, that you take some time and read through that.

2 A Oh, I will.

3 Q You form your own opinion, Ben.

4 A I will.

5 Q Let me ask you just a few more questions, if I

6 might then.

7 A Okay.

8 Q Obviously you've spoken to Mike McCarron this

9 week; right?

10 A Briefly. You know, not anything in detail, any

11 explanations or anything like that.

12 Q Did you discuss anything about these

13 proceedings with him?

14 A Nope.

15 Q Did he tell you how things were going in this

16 proceeding?

17 A Outside of good, that's about it.

18 Q He said they were going good, is that what

19 you're saying, Ben?

20 A Yes.

21 Q Did Mike tell you anything about Justin

22 Weidner's testimony?

23 A Not at all, nothing.

24 Q What about Randy Sowell's testimony?

25 A Randy who?


1 Q Randy Sowell?

2 A I don't know. No, he hadn't mentioned

3 anybody's testimony, not even the guys that are in the

4 room over there either.

5 Q Did Mike McCarron discuss your testimony with

6 you?

7 A Nope.

8 Q Did anybody discuss your testimony before he

9 came in the room?

10 A Nope. I pretty much speak for myself, you

11 know. I'm very opinionated.

12 Q Mike McCarron's representative stated on the

13 record yesterday, after I had twice tried to call him as

14 witness, that Mike McCarron would not be called as a

15 witness when I called him. Mike McCarron now has refused

16 to take the stand during this trial and state his case.

17 Did you know that?

18 A I wasn't aware, no.

19 Q Do you think it would be proper for Mike

20 McCarron to sit where you're at and explain to this trial

21 committee and lay out his case for the trial committee?

22 Do you think that would be proper?

23 A I don't know what the regular proceedings of

24 this trial, or in any court, you know, are. If it's a

25 normal thing, if it's not, if it's proper, improper. I


1 don't know the proceedings, you know.

2 Q So you don't know whether or not it would be

3 proper for Mike to get up and state his case under oath?

4 A Under oath, I don't know if it's proper. If

5 it's a normal thing that -- you know, it's how it's been

6 done, whether in this court or others.

7 Q Ben, you've been probably a party to charges

8 filed within the Regional Council, haven't you, against

9 members?

10 A Oh, yes, yes.

11 Q And the proceeding is similar to this. It's a

12 small room?

13 A Uh-huh.

14 Q No outside intervention; is that correct?

15 A Right.

16 Q And generally --


18 Q BY MR. DRAPER: -- the accused --

19 MS. GRIFFIN: That's presumptuous. The witness

20 would not be able to know if there was outside

21 intervention or not.

22 THE CHAIRMAN: Would you read back Mr. Draper's

23 question?

24 (Record read.)

25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you. And the objection


1 was, Ms. Griffin? I'm sorry.

2 MS. GRIFFIN: The witness would not know

3 whether or not there's outside intervention or not.

4 MR. DRAPER: I'll rephrase the question,

5 Mr. Chairman.


7 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Ben, the proceedings that

8 you're accustomed to in the Regional Council where

9 there's a member tried, there isn't a big audience in

10 that room, is there?

11 A No.

12 Q Does the accused usually come in and state his

13 case?

14 A Well, let me go back a little bit. You know, I

15 know that on occasion some of the agents file charges

16 against a member working on job site that is nonunion,

17 charges were filed. And that member, in front of the

18 delegates, okay -- and there could be easily a couple of

19 hundred delegates in the room to witness what the charges

20 are, the accusation. And then the member has a couple of

21 minutes from the floor to speak in a mic in his defense.

22 Q Ben, before you get to the Regional Council

23 meeting, there has already been a trial taken place; is

24 that correct?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: Objection. That question has


1 been answered. He's leading.

2 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to get

3 this on the record.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: Your objection is noted.

5 Mr. Draper, I'm going --

6 MR. DRAPER: Okay.

7 THE CHAIRMAN: -- I'm going to caution you

8 too --

9 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Before that member goes to the

10 Regional Council meeting, he has went through a trial;

11 isn't that correct?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: I'd like to hear the Chairman --

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I'm not aware of

14 that.

15 MS. GRIFFIN: I'd like to hear the

16 Chairman continue what he's trying to say.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin.

18 Brother Draper, I'm going to ask you to keep

19 your questions in the form of a question. Okay? And

20 give the witness an opportunity to answer.

21 Q BY MR. DRAPER: Okay. Mr. Rodriguez, if an

22 agent files charges against a member for working on a

23 nonunion job, that member has a right to go before a

24 trial committee and represent himself on a charges; is

25 that correct?


1 A I don't know of that. I've never been on a

2 trial committee. I've never known that they go before

3 whatever, you know, situation. I just do know they are

4 called into the delegate meeting. And then accusations

5 toward that member are read. And then he can speak in

6 his defense.

7 Q Do you know if that is if the member decides to

8 appeal the verdict?

9 A I wasn't aware.

10 Q Okay. Let me ask you a question. You had

11 indicated you went to some labor classes?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Mike had indicated that's a good thing to do

14 because he went to some labor classes; is that correct?

15 A Right.

16 Q You learned about being a union official?

17 A I never took that class, no, being a union

18 official, no.

19 Q Or any of the duties of a union official?

20 A No, no.

21 Q It was just merely labor history?

22 A Labor history, yes.

23 Q And that was all?

24 A No. Organizing, they have classes in

25 organizing, women on the job site type of classes. Some


1 labor law classes that I took also. And I don't recall

2 all of them. It was over 20 years ago.

3 Q Excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

4 In those classes they talk about being a

5 fiduciary?

6 A I've heard that word, but I don't recall what

7 it is.

8 Q Okay.

9 MR. DRAPER: I have no further questions right

10 now, Mr. Chairman.

11 THE CHAIRMAN: Any additional, Ms. Griffin?

12 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes, I do.

13


15 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

16 Q Ben, let's go back to this conversation that

17 you had with an individual that works for the Carpenters

18 Union.

19 Was this individual a full-time agent of the

20 Southwest Regional Council of Carpenters?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Ben, do you know Mike Draper's nephew? I

23 believe he goes by Little Draper?

24 A Well, I know him as Little Mikey.

25 Q Okay, Little Mikey. I wasn't sure what he went


1 by.

2 Do you know who Little Mikey Draper works for?

3 A He works for the Regional Council.

4 Q Do you know who he directly reports to, the

5 name of the lead?

6 A Well, I know that he works out of Local 1506.

7 At first he was out of Local 209, I guess, working out of

8 there. And then I think he changed his local to 1506.

9 Q Do you know who he worked for out of 209?

10 A No. I haven't talk to him lately about it.

11 Q So you wouldn't know who he reports to out of

12 1506?

13 A No. I know that they work in partners, you

14 know, two guys, two guys, two guys. But I don't know who

15 his partners are.

16 Q Okay, thanks.

17 In one of Mike Draper's questions to you,

18 regarding this document, he made an inference that these

19 are allegations as presented in the document.

20 Could you, please, briefly go through this and

21 see if you see the word "alleged" or "allegation" in this

22 document -- and I'm sorry, let me repeat the question.

23 Mike Draper said "alleged allegations" in this

24 document. Do you see the word "alleged" or "allegations"

25 in this document?


1 And take your time.

2 A No. I see a disturbing word that -- "because

3 of firsthand knowledge," but not "alleged" or

4 "allegations." I don't see it.

5 Q Okay. Thank you.

6 I'm going to make a few allegations myself.

7 Ben, would it bother you if you found out that Mike

8 McCarron bites small children?

9 A That Mike McCarron what?

10 Q Bites small children.

11 A I wasn't aware of that.

12 Q Would it bother you if that was true?

13 A Yeah.

14 Q Ben, would it bother you if you found out that

15 Mike Draper poaches animals?

16 MR. DRAPER: Pardon me? I didn't hear that.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: Could you read that back,

18 please, Sonja?

19 (Record read.)

20 Q BY MS. GRIFFIN: Would that bother you, Ben?

21 A I'm trying to figure out what poach IS.

22 Q Poach means killing an animal out of season and

23 taking it illegally.

24 A Yes, of course.

25 Q One last question. Would it bother you if you


1 if you found out that Mike Draper takes advantage of

2 members when they're out of work and going bankrupt by

3 purchasing guns at a way undervalued amount? Would that

4 bother you if it's factual?

5 A It's not right, man. It would bother me.

6 MS. GRIFFIN: I have no further questions.

7 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. Draper, of this

8 witness?

9 MR. DRAPER: This is done. Can I go off the

10 record for a second?

11 MS. GRIFFIN: Stay on the record.

12 MR. DRAPER: If I make a statement, it will be

13 on the record.

14 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Draper, let's finish our

15 recross.

16 Anything else for Brother Rodriguez, then we'll

17 go off the record?

18

19 CROSS-EXAMINATION

20 BY MR. DRAPER:

21 Q Brother Rodriguez, do you know if Mike Draper

22 poaches animals?

23 A I have no knowledge of it.

24 Q Do you know if Mike Draper buys guns from poor,

25 depressed, downtrodden individuals?


1 A I have no knowledge of it.

2 Q None whatsoever; is that correct?

3 A None whatsoever.

4 Q Okay.

5 MR. DRAPER: Thank you, Mr. Rodriguez, for your

6 testimony.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: I've got one other question.

8 THE CHAIRMAN: For this witness?

9 MS. GRIFFIN: Yes.

10 THE CHAIRMAN: This is the last crack.

11


13 BY MS. GRIFFIN:

14 Q Mr. Rodriguez, in referring to this document

15 that's been distributed to you today, do you know if

16 anything in this document about Mike McCarron is factual?

17 A Don't know.

18 Q Thank you.

19 THE CHAIRMAN: Brother Rodriguez, first of all,

20 let me apologize for not introducing the committee. I'm

21 Frank Spencer, I am the eastern district vice president.

22 To my left is Dave Tharp, he's the midwest vice

23 president. And to my right, Jim Smith, the Canadian vice

24 president. I apologize for not doing that sooner, but we

25 were a little caught up in the procedure, and I lost my


1 manners.

2 Brother Rodriguez, thank you very much for your

3 service today.

4 MR. THARP: Thank you for participating.

5 THE CHAIRMAN: Before we go off the record,

6 Brother Draper, I'm just going to ask you: With the

7 other witnesses tomorrow, let's please be clear that this

8 hearing notice is allegations at this point. Okay? So

9 that we don't have to keep going back through the record

10 and clarifying that. Okay? As we go forward. That's

11 all.

12 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, that's fine. But, I

13 mean, the counsel over there talking about where does it

14 say allegations.

15 THE CHAIRMAN: I understand.

16 MR. DRAPER: Okay. I tried to make it clear.

17 THE CHAIRMAN: I know you did. And it was

18 clear to me, but I just want to make sure it's clear.

19 MR. DRAPER: Unfortunately some people doesn't

20 understand. So --

21 MS. GRIFFIN: Mr. Draper, we're still on the

22 record, and I need to rebut that statement.

23 To be clear, I don't appreciate the little

24 dancing jig. To be clear, the allegations in this

25 document are allegations; there is no fact behind them.


1 This document was distributed at who knows what cost --

2 THE CHAIRMAN: Ms. Griffin.

3 MS. GRIFFIN: -- to the Brotherhood.

4 THE CHAIRMAN: I just made clear for the record

5 they are allegations, and they're to be identified as

6 that.

7 MS. GRIFFIN: But it doesn't say allegations in

8 here.

9 THE CHAIRMAN: That's why I advised Brother

10 Draper how we're going to handle this going forward.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: But the Brotherhood doesn't know

12 that. That's what I just said. Thank you.

13 THE CHAIRMAN: Your witnesses for tomorrow, any

14 idea of length?

15 MS. GRIFFIN: We have almost the exact same

16 amount of questions as we had today.

17 Are we off the record?

18 THE CHAIRMAN: We can be.


20 MR. CHAIRMAN: Back on the record. We're

21 adjourned at five until 6:00. Again, I wouldn't expect

22 the dailies overnight because I'm going to want to review

23 them. I assume you're not going to need them because

24 they were your witnesses today?

25 MS. GRIFFIN: That's correct.


1 MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anything else, Brother

2 Draper?

3 MR. DRAPER: Mr. Chairman, I want to make clear

4 for the record, you're going to be receiving the

5 proceedings whereby privileged documents are going to be

6 removed from the record, including any discussion

7 relative to those privileged documents; is that correct?

8 MR. CHAIRMAN: Correct. I hope to have them

9 overnight, Sonja, and have reviewed them before we

10 convene in the morning.

11 MS. GRIFFIN: As previously stated, it's our

12 opinion those document that are going to be redacted are

13 crucial to Mike McCarron's defense.

14 MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, one and all.

15 Appreciate it. We're adjourned.

16 (Proceedings adjourned at 5:57 P.M.)

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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

I, SONJA A. LANE, CSR No. 13150, Certified

Shorthand Reporter for the State of California, do hereby

certify;

That the deponent named in the foregoing

deposition, prior to being examined, was by me first duly

sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth and

nothing but the truth;

That said deposition was taken before me at the

time and place therein stated and was thereafter

transcribed into print under my direction and

supervision, and I hereby certify the foregoing

deposition is a full, true, and correct transcript of my

shorthand notes so taken.

I further certify that I am not of counsel nor

attorney for either of the parties hereto or in any way

interested in the event of this case and that I am not

related to either of the parties hereto.

WITNESS my hand this 11th day of September 2013.

SONJA A. LANE, CSR No. 13150

CERTIFIED COPY CERTIFICATE

I, SONJA A. LANE, Certified Shorthand Reporter,

No. 13150, hereby certify that the attached deposition is

a correct and certified copy of the deposition of the

deponent named in the foregoing deposition, taken before

me at the time and place therein stated.

I declare under penalty of perjury that the

foregoing is true and correct.

Executed at Las Vegas, Nevada, this 11th day of

September 2013.

SONJA A. LANE, CSR No. 13150

Documents

SONJA LANE · A - Letter of resignation from Doug McCarron 413 B - Copy of a check for $25,000 from Doug 413 McCarron to Mike McCarron dated 12/19/12 C - A letter from Mike Draper