Slashdot | Failed Avionics a Possible Cause of BA038 Crashose/embedded/Slashdot - Failed Avionics a... · 2008-01-24 · Slashdot | Failed Avionics a Possible Cause of BA038 Crash

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Slashdot | Failed Avionics a Possible Cause of BA038 Crash

httpitslashdotorgarticleplsid=0801201430224 (1 of 12)2412008 91347

FirehoseFailed Avionics a possible cause of BA038 crash by Muhammar (659468)

Posted by Soulskill on Sunday January 20 1050AM from the we-will-be-landing-shortly dept

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From The Sunday TimesJanuary 20 2008

Hunt for fatal flaw of Flight 38An electronic systems failure is emerging as the prime suspect in BArsquos brush with disaster at Heathrow report Richard Woods Steven Swinford and Paul Eddy

Richard Woods Steven Swinford and Paul Eddy

After 10 hours of flying Speedbird 038 was almost home First Officer John Coward was preparing to land the British Airways flight from Beijing to Heathrow In front of him on the right side of the cockpit were three screens displaying flight navigation and engine data another three were arrayed in front of Captain Peter Burkill who sat on the left

Beyond through the cockpit windows Coward could see central London one of the most densely populated areas of Europe stretch into the distance It was Thursday lunchtime and they were approaching Heathrow from the east There is a preference for flights into the airport to cross the capital in this direction because it is quieter than having them take off over the city Below them millions of people were going about their business never imagining that a plane might fall out of the sky

At eight nautical miles from the airport BA038 was down to about 2400ft in a shallow glide At 7frac12 nautical miles the plane lined up with the instrument landing system that would guide it into Heathrow

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httpwwwtimesonlinecouktolnewsukarticle3216746ece (1 of 35)2412008 91445

ldquoAt 2000ft you lower the gearrdquo said a former 777 pilot referring to the undercarriage ldquoThatrsquos the procedurerdquo

The plane was lining up for a ldquocategory onerdquo landing in good weather being guided in by two radio beams one horizontal one vertical They were drawing the plane down a three-degree glidepath onto the southern runway known as 27L at Heathrow Everything appeared normal

The Boeing 777 is one of the most advanced passenger jets in the world crammed with highly sophisticated electronics Over 12 years it had established a remarkable safety record - more than 600 of the planes had gone into service and not one had crashed

To Coward a 41-year-old career pilot with BA it was a routine flight and the plane was taking the strain The autopilot and autothrottle were engaged and making the necessary adjustments

ldquoYou can see the throttles moving themselves Itrsquos as if they have a ghostly hand on themrdquo another retired 777 pilot said ldquoThe gear is down and the flaps are down In most cases yoursquod see the runway at this point The aircraft would be holding a speed or even slowing slightlyrdquo

As the plane approached Coward according to former pilots would have announced ldquo1000 radio Man land 200rdquo This meant the plane was at 1000ft in its final approach and that Coward was going to switch from autopilot to a manual landing at 200ft

Once such a procedure was set the plane would continue under automatic control until it reached an altitude of 250ft Then a female computer voice would say ldquoDeciderdquo

ldquoThatrsquos decision timerdquo said a former 777 pilot ldquoThe co-pilot would take the autopilot out Hersquod say lsquoMan land 200 I have controlrsquordquo

At two miles out and 600ft up the plane was ldquoestablished on late finalsrdquo - it was less than a minute from landing The crew and passengers must have thought that they would soon be inside the terminal

As Coward stared at the controls the autothrottle demanded more thrust It was a normal procedure a small adjustment intended to keep the plane at the correct speed and height Nothing happened The computer system again ordered more thrust Again no response

In the central control displays of the 777 is a screen that shows the engine pressure rate (EPR) One indicator shows the ldquocommand EPRrdquo

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the level ordered by the pilot another indicates the actual EPR ldquoThe pilots would have noticed that the achieved EPR was drifting backrdquo said one former 777 flier ldquoThat would have been one of their first indicatorsrdquo

Coward or Burkill - it is not clear which - tried to increase thrust manually Still nothing happened

At high altitudes planes that lose power can glide for distances of up to 100 miles according to Boeing helped by starting at cruising speeds of more than 600mph At less than 1000ft and at much slower speeds they can drop like a stone

Yesterday Coward said the plane had suffered ldquocatastrophic failurerdquo in both engines and that he feared it would smash into the ground and disintegrate He told a Sky News reporter that his ldquoadrenaline kicked inrdquo

There were no drills for such a situation no time to try to restart the engines Pilots are taught how to recover from potential disasters at normal cruising altitudes but not so close to the ground ldquoI was just focused on holding it up in the air for as long as possible then keeping it straightrdquo said Coward

Below 600ft the ldquoground proximityrdquo warning is inhibited so that it does not distract pilots from an ordinary landing But other signs and sounds would have rapidly filled the cockpit

Through his clenched hand Coward would have felt the control stick judder ldquoIf a stall is imminent the aircraft analyses its airspeed and gives a preliminary shake to the yokerdquo said one former pilot ldquoIt wonrsquot let you miss it We call it the lsquostick shakerrsquo An lsquoairspeed lowrsquo warning will also flash up on screenrdquo

Coward had only seconds to respond only seconds before the plane would hit the ground

Just 100ft or so below Pym Reehal whose house lies in the Heathrow flightpath had gone outside to his car He had an engine problem of his own and was trying to jumpstart the vehicle

As he tinkered BA038 hurtled overhead ldquoI had a quick glimpse and saw it was coming in at a very weird anglerdquo recalled Reehal ldquoIt was sat at such a strange anglerdquo

A short distance away John Rowland was driving his taxi just outside the airport perimeter fence ldquoIt looked as though it was just missing the roof of my cabrdquo he said ldquoSo low you would think you could lean out of the

Red Box

Sam Coates on politics spin and the latest from Westminster

window and touch itrdquo

The plane skimmed the road and missed the perimeter fence by a few feet Further down the Heathrow airfield another BA flight was preparing to take off One of the air crew watched as BA038 hurtled towards the ground

ldquoI thought oh my God somethingrsquos terribly wrongrdquo said the witness who asked not to be named ldquoThe angle was all wrong It just looked like it would be a disasterrdquo

Inside the cockpit of BA038 Coward and Burkill had no time to issue a Mayday no time to warn passengers to brace In the few remaining seconds they just fought to keep the plane flying

The failure of the engines had cut the main power The 777 does not have cables connecting wing flaps and rudder to the pilotsrsquo controls It is all done by sending electronic signals However the plane has several back-up batteries that enable the instruments to work until the emergency power units kick in

ldquoIf they had done nothing the autopilot would have tried to fly the glide pathrdquo said a former pilot The plane would probably then have stalled and crashed ldquoSo they have to lower the nose to maintain speed then lift it just before hitting the groundrdquo

Coward who lives in Valbonne in the south of France with his wife said yesterday that he had thought it was ldquothe endrdquo for him - that the plane would land with an ldquoalmighty crashrdquo He added that ldquosome thanks has to go to the man upstairs for giving us that little lift at the endrdquo

But he and Burkill said one former pilot did ldquoa brilliant jobrdquo If the angle is right a plane gets the benefit of ldquoground effectrdquo - the wings in effect trap a cushion of air underneath them that softens the landing

The Boeing 777 has the biggest landing gear of any craft with six wheels instead of four on each assembly As the plane slammed into the grass before the start of the runway the landing gear on the left side smashed upwards through the wing the right-side landing gear was torn off

ldquoIt wasnrsquot just one thudrdquo said Coward yesterday ldquoIt was a series of thudsrdquo

The plane ploughed great gouges in the earth as it skidded hundreds of metres skewed right and came to rest on the edge of the runway

ldquoI felt like I was in a washing machinerdquo said Jason Johnson one of the passengers ldquoThe wings were making cracking sounds You think of your family and your loved onesrdquo

Others barely noticed that the plane had crash landed until oxygen masks fell from the overhead storage lockers

The passengers fled down the emergency chutes that had been triggered when the crew opened the doors Amazingly nobody was killed and injuries were relatively minor

How did one of the safest aircraft ever made come to crash-land narrowly avoiding disaster and why did both engines apparently shut down at the same time

THE 777 is the first plane to be designed entirely on computers with input from pilots from the outset It is a long-range fuel-efficient workhorse Since it started commercial operations in 1995 777s have made more than 2m flights Boeing claims that operators enjoy a ldquo99 dispatch reliability raterdquo In other words 777s rarely go wrong

According to one database there have been only a handful of recent 777 incidents ndash and two of those were hijackings The only fatality had been that of an airport worker who was burnt to death when a refuelling operation went wrong in 2001 in Denver Colorado

The pilots got much of what they asked for in designing the plane including a highly automated ldquoglass cockpitrdquo that does away with all analogue gauges and presents flight information on bright software-driven LCD displays Integrated into the software is EICAS (engine indication and crew alerting system) which monitors the two engines and alerts the crew to any abnormalities

Nancy Novaes an American pilot who flew 777s until she retired last year said ldquoThis is a great plane to fly Itrsquos highly computerised highly logical It knows what it needs and EICAS tells you what it wantsrdquo

However the 777 and its computers are not infallible - as investigators knew before last weekrsquos crash

Early in the evening of August 1 2005 a Malaysia Airlines 777 en route from Perth Australia to Kuala Lumpur was climbing past 38000ft towards its cruising level when the flight crew were confronted with what the official report on the incident described as ldquoa situation that had previously been considered not possiblerdquo

On the EICAS screen a ldquolow speedrdquo warning appeared suggesting the plane was approaching the speed at which it would stall But almost simultaneously the primary flight display screen warned exactly the opposite that the aircraft was approaching the overspeed limit the maximum speed at which it is designed to operate

Too slow or too fast Before the crew could decide the autopilot pitched up the nose and the 777 climbed for 3000ft while the air speed dropped from 270 knots to 158 knots - at which point the stall-warning horn correctly sounded and the stick-shakers activated

The pilot prevented disaster by disconnecting the autopilot and pushing the nose down But then the autothrottle kicked in commanding more thrust from the engines The nose pitched up again and of its own volition the aircraft climbed another 2000ft until it was brought under control

The plane landed safely but as the Australian Transport Safety Bureau report put it the combination of a failed sensor and ldquoa software anomalyrdquo had created an ldquounexpected situation that had not been foreseenrdquo and for which the crew had not been trained

The sensor was a tiny ldquoaccelerometerrdquo - a device used to measure the planersquos acceleration that is similar to those used in cars to deploy airbags

Airlines were subsequently warned that they had to modify the planersquos software Yesterday BA said it had received the directive and implemented it immediately

Could a similar electronic or computer fault have occurred on flight BA038 Were the pilots not warned of engine failure or did a system erroneously shut down the engines

One former 777 pilot believes that the accidental mechanical failure of both engines at the same time is unthinkable

ldquoThere are separate autothrottles a left computer and a right computer everything is split That is the philosophy of the planerdquo he said ldquoFor [both engines to fail] at the same time it has got to have been commanded We are all aghastrdquo

In other words it may have been an error in the computerised engine control systems The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is examining all possibilities and downloading full data from the flight recorders

Experts noted that its initial report said it would be ldquoexamining the range of aircraft systems that could influence engine operationrdquo

As investigators picked over the crash site other hypotheses were being aired One was that a ldquobird strikerdquo had shut down both engines The impact of large birds such as Canada geese hitting the fans inside the jet engine can cause engine damage but no witnesses have recalled seeing any flocks of geese or other birds in the vicinity

Authorities also monitor flocks by radar and said there were none on Thursday

ldquoThe possibility of geese is remote at that heightrdquo said one pilot ldquoAnd though they bend the blades the engine keeps producing powerrdquo

Pictures of the crashed plane also suggest that this was not the cause The blades in the planersquos starboard engine were undamaged

Turbulence is another possibility particularly at busy airports Sudden wind shear or even the wake left by powerful jets can damage the surfaces of planes sending them out of control But again there seem to be no signs that such forces were at work

A fuel problem was another hypothesis In the immediate aftermath of the crash internet forums populated by pilots were rife with speculation that BA038 had run out of fuel

Some airlines although not BA are known to run their planes with as little fuel as possible to reduce costs heavier planes use more fuel However this policy can be problematic when planes face unexpected headwinds or delays in landing BA had got its sums wrong went the theory

It holds little water however ldquoIt is well known that if all the engines snuff it fuel is the most common causerdquo said David Learmount operations and safety editor at Flight International magazine

ldquoBut fuel exhaustion is not the issue here because the AAIB report says fuel was spilt all over the [crash site] Luckily it didnrsquot catch firerdquo

Learmount suggested however that water could have got into the fuel frozen at high altitude thawed as the plane came into land and caused a slush in the tanks This may have blocked fuel to both engines Reports yesterday suggested that BA ground staff were warned to check the fuel mix in all its 777s

Fuel starvation in certain tanks is another possible explanation because large jets like the 777 have multiple tanks in both wings Some aircraft have additional tanks in the belly and even the tail

Transferring fuel between the tanks during the flight to maintain the aircraftrsquos equilibrium is a routine process controlled by sensors pumps and valves Like all technologies it is not infallible

On February 7 2005 a Virgin Atlantic Airbus 340 flying from Hong Kong to Heathrow was passing through Dutch airspace when without warning one of its four engines - the outer engine on the port wing - went dead

The crew quickly established from the Airbusrsquos sophisticated displays that the amount of fuel contained in the inner tank from which the engine was feeding registered as ldquo0rdquo What they did not realise was that the automatic transfer system between the tanks had failed

The outer engine on the right wing also began to lose power and the warning display showed that its tank contained zero fuel The captain immediately realised there was a ldquofuel management problemrdquo and opened the valves between the tanks to begin a manual transfer It worked but the crew still declared a Mayday and diverted to Amsterdam

Some experts are sceptical that such a problem affected BA038 One former pilot on the 777 pointed out that during landing fuel is going directly from tank to engine - there may be no transferring from one tank to another - and it is unlikely that both engines would suffer such a problem at the same time

THE wreckage of the plane will be removed from the runway tomorrow and the airport will start getting back to normal But crash investigators will not produce a definitive report into the cause of the accident for months Until then suspicion is likely to remain with the avionics

So far other 777s have been allowed to continue flying but the implications are serious A senior airline industry source said ldquoI have heard that BA are going to have to check every single one of their 777s They are not grounding them but they will be checking every one because the AAIB has identified that it seems to be something connected with electrics and avionics coming from the flight deck to the engines because the engines seem to be okay

ldquoThey will go through the records of every single 777 flight looking for similar issues They will go through all the engineering logs to find out if

have had any similar problems between the flight deck and the engines

ldquoEach 777 will be brought in one by one for a maintenance check to look at whether there are any untoward signs They will have to do that out of good practice as much as anything elserdquo

Whatever the cause of the accident it was a remarkable piece of flying by Coward and Burkill and an extraordinary escape for their passengers

The pilots hailed as heroes have been modest about their achievement But Novaes before she retired had experienced the reality of crisis in the cockpit

ldquoThese pilots have practised flying with limited controlsrdquo she said ldquoThey wouldnrsquot panic Bravery is saying lsquoIrsquom afraid okay so deal with itrsquo Most pilots really only have to think about themselves They are in the front They are first on the scene If they take care of themselves everybody behind them is safe

ldquoBut afterwards you feel a tremendous sense of relief You are on the ground and youre almost giddy The entire glut of emotions is probable

ldquoThe pilot is a human being who may be better practised and controlled than others but theyrsquore still humanrdquo

Why did both engines fail The competing theories

Bird strike A flock would have to have struck and stopped both engines But there is no evidence this happened Verdict implausible

Pilot error A mistake by those flying the plane must always be considered by air traffic investigators But it is unlikely that BA would have allowed the pilots to be hailed as heroes if there were any suspicion that they had made a mistake Verdict highly unlikely

Running out of fuel Last week pilotsrsquo internet forums buzzed with speculation that the plane had run out of fuel But the interim accident report said that ldquoa significant amount of fuel leaked from the aircraftrdquo suggesting the plane was not short of fuel Verdict very unlikely

Fuel contamination Reports yesterday suggested that investigators were focusing on the possibility that the planersquos kerosene fuel had been contaminated with water A poor fuel mix has however never been held responsible for an air crash and one would expect other planes that were refuelled in Beijing to have been affected as well No such problems have been reported Verdict unlikely

Fuel management problem Fuel is transferred as required between various tanks in the wings and centre of large planes In one incident two engines on an Airbus 340 failed even though the plane had plenty of fuel because the transfer system malfunctioned But it is unlikely to happen to both engines at the same time Verdict possible but unlikely

Computer glitchThis happened with a Malaysian Airlines 777 and a former 777 captain told The Sunday Times that for both engines to fail at the same time ldquoit has got to be commandedrdquo - ie it was computer error in controlling the engines Verdict possible and many expertsrsquo prime concern

Boeing 777 how it measures up

- There are about 670 Boeing 777s in service around the world Last Thursdayrsquos crash was the first involving the plane although in Denver Colorado in 2001 a member of ground staff was killed while refuelling a 777 when the fuel hose malfunctioned

- It was the first plane to be digitally designed using 3D computer graphics Its flight-control system also differs from earlier Boeings in using electronics to control the wing flaps and rudder rather than mechanical systems such as cables

- The 209ft-long plane can carry between 305 and 440 passengers at a cruising speed of 615mph with a range of up to 8300 miles

- When it came into service in June 1995 it became the first twin-engined plane permitted to fly three hours from the nearest runway Until then no twin-engined plane could fly more than 60 minutes from a landing spot Airlines liked its reduced fuel consumption compared with four-engine planes Double-engine failures are also rare

- The Boeing 777s have however been involved in at least 12 incidents where electrical systems have overheated during or before flights four of which resulted in ldquomajor damagerdquo to the power panels involved in controlling the plane according to Britainrsquos Air Accidents Investigations Branch Single engine failure or forced shutdown resulting in an early landing has occurred on 11 known occasions

Are these BIG WIGS retarded or what Yea the wonderfull world of the good old computer again Wake the HELL up and ground these DAMM planes amp check each amp every one out before one

crashes amp kills endless numbers of people Are we worried that we will LOSE MONEY be grounding them Of course they are WAKE UP amp SMELL THE COFFEE THE HANDWRITING IS ON THE WALL

Michael A Passentino Temple Tezas

I cant tell from the article whether the engines shut down or if they just didnt respond to the throttles Since its all fly by wire there may be no direct connection between the throttles and the fuel controllers

R Buckthal Pleasanton CA

Has it been that long since the crash at the Paris air show of the airbus You might want to revisit that artical There is no mention in your artical of the FADEC The first 2 letters stand for FULL AUTHORITY You might want to check with Boing to see what means for this aircraft If you want to speculate at least focus on the fact that the engines were not producing enough power and not responding to pilot input Ask Boing about Soft faults or what ever they are calling them these days you might find that interesting too

Lauren Valley Springs Calif

As an aircraft mechanic for 50+ years I have always decried the accuracy of any report on an aircraft accidentincident Yours however was the most accurate pointed journalistic piece I have encountgered Kudos to your research and writing staffs

Ed Woerle Rossville Tennessee USA

Quite frankly Boeing 777 has started to worry me Ive been flying in excess of 200000 miles a year out of which several long flights are on Triple7 But in the past 60 days there have been more incidents with B777 than anytime before There was around five or six incidents with B777 out ot which three involved emergency landings However BA 38 was by far most serious one Air France had two engine malfunctions and two emergency landings (one of which was in Russia) on its B777 birds Either the maintenance messed up on several birds or just a freak set of circumstances I am not worried and I will continue to fly B777 planes but frankly number of recent B777 incidents is worrying

Theo Valich Zagreb Croatia

I would hazard a guess that in a plane as big as a 777 running out of fuel does not mean every last drop if you think about the rate at which it would be burned

Lynda tonbridge

Excellent article research and discussion- Sounds like computerelectronics problem much more likely A few questions- Is there any evidence that cell phone signals can alter avionicselectronics on planes What about IED jamming devices Are any avionics wireless on the 777 How long would it take for engines to spin down without fuel in a situation like this is there a specific toggleswitchbutton to startstop the engines akin to the Prius start button

Matt Paly Cali USA

How many other aircraft designs can claim only 1 incident per year worldwide Would the 777 have this safety record if it was equipped with standard mechanical systems Accidents will happen When they do an investigation must be undertaken but I think that this second guessing of the technologies involved is ridiculous in light of the the 777s incredible safety record I guess it is human nature to (what if)

Scott McAfee Mt Vernon WaUSA

It is a heroic story which cannot be explained but the heavy emphasis on the computer system as an infallible entity there in lies the flawor someone is covering up part of the truth

Nixon Stewart London United Kingdom

I cant see in any of the reports that there was plenty of fuel left in the tanks There was a report if some spillage having foam sprayed over it but no mention of how much was left To the layman surely running out of fuel looks the most likely cause

David Dubai UAE

Simon F--look fatal up in the dictionary--it doesnt have to mean death it also means something that causes destruction While were at it no-one died in the terminal building either Sheesh Fiona London UK

Fiona F London

This rather sounds like great news for Virgin Atlantic with their old 4 Engines 4 Longhaul slogan and all other operators of Airbus 340s I wonder if they will reconsider their 787 order and come back to the old motto

L Lemieux London UK

I was on a 777 coming into Heathrow 25 yrs ago amp the pilot told us all there might be an emergency landing as he had a problem with the hydraulics (Hello thanks for that - flaps amp under carriage) He said there would be emergency equip along the runway as a precaution amp not to let that worry us (subsequently several people panicked in their seats) I had visions of crashing amp burning amp being on the front page of the UK papers I put my shoes on amp wished I hadnt worn flammable trousers We did an extra circuit or two amp he resolved the issue amp thankfully landed safely Im wondering if it may have been a similar issue as it was the same type of plane The poor pilot was flushed red amp sweating as we got off the plane which just confirmed how serious it could have been

cherie Surrey UK

Could we please have a computwer like this in charge of White House foriegn policy Such a glitch could be known as the Cheney affect I would like to see this fellow report on matters of National interest Like Data protection He is Very very good

ivor Manning Paignton Uk

What was Fatal about the Flaw No-one was killedSo why use the term Fatal Reporters arent what they used to be

Simon F Newcastle UK

In excess of 600 aircraft delivered over 17 years flying 2 trips a day That is in excess of 200000 flights and probably double that I would fly a 777 flown by a reputable carrier any day I would be more concerned over who is flying it and who is servicing it these

are the biggest factors in most accidents

Mike Wolverhampton UK

Clearly there was some engine control malfunction At 600ft it is said that you have 35-40 secs to react to the problem Should have the pilots made the aircraft as clean as possible to maximise the aircrafts ability to glide As a private pilot I would have reduced flap to try to reach the runway

richard john williams weybridge surrey

UFOs Youre having a laugh Should I be worried Get a bigger picture This is a super piece of informative and analytical journalism This does not surprise me when a near miss for want of a better term like this occurs over the capital I would expect the London Times writers to sharpen their intellect and pens

Neal Airdrie Scotland UK

I wonder if the article was translated into Italian somewhere on the Italian pressit would have appreciated very much

vittorio lamberti vietri sul mare italy

Richard Woods Steven Swinford and Paul Eddy thanks guys for doing some great research - excellent piece of journalism Joe

Joe Sydney Australia

Good article Surprised by some of the comments from readers UFOs At 600 feet No eyewitness and there were several spoke of a UFO Gordon did you read the article They didnt know they had the problem until after gear-down point which is 2000ft They were at 600ft when the problem occurred The pilots were probably a bit busy getting the thing on the ground to raise the gear with no power Rain Category 1 landing in good weather Rain isnt good weather Running out of fuel Each engine is fed by its own tank in the wing which all other tanks transfer to but not on final approach What is the chance of both

tanks running out at exactly the same time Pretty much zero Same applies to water contamination It wouldnt have affected both engines simultaneously One would have gone bfore the other

Phil K Luton UK

Am I missing something here The pilot demaned extra power to maintain the glide path and the engines did not respond they do not apear to have stopped If they had then presumably the passengers would have heard them spool down This must eliminate the possibility of running out of fuel and confirm that it is an engine control problem

Nigel Hereford

Thank you for this marvellous article It is well researched and written with a calm and analytical style It is a relief to be treated as an intelligent and curious reader for once

David Rochester Liverppo UK

At last a news story that not only collects all the known facts but takes the time to organize them in the most understandable way Congratulations to a team that did its job

Anthony Nania Canaan Connecticut

Nice to read such a comprehensive article which covers the pros and cons of the situation As a private pilot and a chartered engineer I travel a lot and get very frustrated by the standard of reporting in some papers on technical and aviation matters The pilot in me also says well done to the cockpit crew for keeping the plane flying and not getting distracted by the techncial issues For those wondering why no communciaction was made from the pilots well the rule I was taught (by both bush pilots and airline pilots) when I learnt to fly was Aviate Navigate and Communicate - in that order of priority In other words fly the plane first and then navigate and then communcicate (to air-traffic and passengers)

J K Woodhouse Brighton England

Im hold a PPL and My father is a 777 flight instructor for a Contiental Airlines He started putting his students through simulated dead-stick (non-engine) landings last year He called it the space shuttle approach I had the opportunity to sit in on one of those simulator approaches last summer What surprised me the most was that without the support of engines the pilots had to start their flare (raise the nose) at about 200 feet to slow the rate of

descent much sooner than on a normal approach (which is usually about 30-50 feet) Otherwise the airplane would impact the ground to heavily I was amazed to see that a plane of that size could be successfully landed dead-stick and even more surprised that this sort of procedure was not part of standard training for most 777 pilots Here is a video of the space shuttle landing dead-stick httpwwwyoutubecomwatchv=py7E9fIase4 Notice how soon they start their flare Well done to the pilots and crew of BA038

Mr JM Jost Aberdeen United Kingdom

As peviously commented an excellent article The thing that struck me most was the ever shifting balance between humans fying the aircraft and computers Something to watch While other contributors have rightly pointed out that we cannot know what happened until after the investigation I am disappointed to read some vitriolic comments attacking BA or the flight crew Perhaps also it is a sign of the times that my first thoughts were along the lines of some kind if terrorist attack Would some kind of directional EM interference cause a computer glitch We are always told to turn off all electronic (and especially transmitting) equipment when landing Ive never understood this but how ironic if it turns out to be some doofus phoning home while on final approach

Wyn Tingley Bristol UK

The Jason Johnson quoted in the article was an Australian hoaxer who was interviewed live on Sky News He wasnAcircacutet on the flight

Brian Dublin

My God exceptional journalism is still alive in the English language Well written and informative article the first I have seen regarding this crash The authors have done an excellent job

bob williams Gainesville Florida US

I dont understand the automatic command error hypothesis My understanding is that one of the crew issued a command to increase engine power and it was not obeyed either

steve chester

Great article

Stewart Rose-Innes London United Kingdom

You can tell its a slow news week when a simple event like this is disected for every scrap of detail Calm down Nothing happened People actually did die this week but for some reason they are not your top story British media at its best

Luke London

most probably electronics system failure

Rene Abad Camiling Philippines

If Gordon Browns motorcade was driving below the flight on final approach and given that they deploy RFI jammers to subvert improvised explosive devices ie mobile phone controlled explosives then quite likely Gordon Browns security team has crashed the avionics of the flight due to the close proximity So I guess wed call this another terrorist attack by the UK govenment then

John SMith London

the eye witness accounts of three cab drivers and a pilot on bbc world shortly after the incidfent all said there was extensive engine noise which would tend to indicate thrust reversers theory possible also what about the also often repeated severe banking to the left - at 45degrees according to the abovementioned pilot

damon london UK

Never mind UFOs or terrorists - maybe a passengers mobile phone was switched on during the approach and the signal interfered with the planes avionics

Steve Glasgow Scotland

They ran out of fuel And deserve to be fired and imprisioned Their backslapping curry and congratulations for a job well done is inappropriate and BAs attempt to put a brave face on grave pilot error To Bobby Boca Raton USA Well done Bobby your informed and incisive explanation of the cause of the crash will save the AAIB months of investigation and a lot of money

Pete Jones LONDON

Really well written and informative I really enjoyed the style of the article and it was really well researched An excellent news piece

A Paul Lewisham

This is starting to become reminiscent of the HAL 2000 computer system in Space Odyssey Can a programmed computer software really be trusted as much as we think Very informative article

Richard Milan Italy

As usual there are a few ufo nutters about and a few hand of god saved them all proclamationsWe dont know the real cause of the accident yet but we do know that the pilot and co-pilot did a grand job and that the most likely cause of the accident was avionics controls The experts will no doubt find the real reason and this will make the plane even safer

Terry Hereford UK

Good article one thing though aircraft always take off and land into wind and as the prevailing wind is from the west runways 27 left and right are predominately used at Heathrow 09 L amp R (East) are switched to in nil wind or Easterly wind conditions this is a practical requirement that has the added bonus of giving people below a break from the noise and not to do with a acirceuroœpreferenceacirceurobull Incidentally during a meeting of the Air Safety Board I was present at some years ago the possibility of a commercial aircraft crashing in central London was discussed The conclusion that it was a case of when and not if was rather depressing

Anthony Higham Edenbridge UK

For many yearseven decades we have read about systems being developed using mobile phone type technology to disable or cause malfunction of electronics in aircraftvehiclesetc for use by defence services and even by police to stop stolen vehicles Is it possible that such a device could have been used by terrorists which would cause catastrophic failure to a fly by wire control system Surely all aircraft should be capa ble of full manual control by the pilot to avoi d any such possibility

Stephen Griffiths Leominster UK

From the unusual attitude reported it would seem that there may have been a rolling moment cause by turbulence Is it possible that the inertia on the small amount of fuel left after such a long flight forced it away from the intake for the engines

Nigel Johnson Toronto Canada

The survival of the aircraft will allow the investigators to fly the aircraft on the ground and hopefully reproduce the fault The FDR data will allow test equipment to stimulate the avionics in precisely the same way Lets hope the fault isnt intermittent

Tim Scotland

I first want to say this is one of the best written articles on an aircraft incident I have read coming from mainstream journalists As a pilot Im amazed at all the misconceptions that journalists have when it comes to flying and this article contained very few of those Though I do take issue with your all too common assertion that planes drop like a stone when they lose their engines at low altitude This stone very nearly made the runway covering almost 2 miles with only 600 feet of altitude and no extra speed to work with

Eric Graves Cambridgeshire England

So - was the gear up or down when they realised there was a problem Can the gear be lowered when there is no power Why cant all media reporting be at least as good as this

Stef Bishop Dunstable UK

Kudos for Woods Swinford and Eddy for an extremely well researched and written article

Dev M San Francisco CA USA

Nice write up A bit dramatic for those of us familiar with the 777 but generally accurate and a good initial assessment Most professionals in the industry will not jump to conclusions before knowing a heck of a lot more information One small point that is wrong in the article however There were other aircraft that were qualified to fly beyond 60 minutes from a suitable airport (ETOPS) long before the 777 came along The Boeing 767 was one and there were certainly others

Bob T Toronto Canada

Good report Minor inaccuracy The Malaysian incident showed a problem

with TWO accelerometers (one failure had occurred 4 years previous but the software deemed it not to be serious enough to issue a maintenance advisory) The main difference between the 2 incidents is that in 2005 the pilots managed a throttle change MANUALLY Manual operation of the Heathrow thottles didnt help Id also like to know if the Heathrow autopilot was swithed OFF (rather than ARMED) Very suspicious though It will be interesting to know whether there were any problems with the accelerometers And we all know that software fixes arent as straight forward as they should be

Ian Powell Hexham UK

would it be possible to program the plane`s computor while it was parked in Beijing to shut both engines down on long finals at Heathrow ie a deiberate attempt at sabotage

Nick Paxton Northallerton N Yorks

Animportant issue for those involved in flight safety to consider in and around major airports is the amount of open grassland around the runways By landing on the grass before the runway not only was the forward speed of the plane arrested by it digging into the soft ground but in my belief a major fire was averted by the lack of heat and sparks that would have been generated by landing on the hard runway

Grant Snowden Checkendon UK

I have some past familiarity with Flight Management Systems - the way this article reads makes me wonder if some part of the control infrastructure thought perhaps by loss or faulty telemetry that the aircraft had landed The airplane might have never gone to full manual control and shut down when it calculated to have touched down At any rate kudos go not only to the pilots but to the design of the 777 which appears to have continued to be controllable despite loss of power

Menno Aartsen Fredericksburg VA USA

Not mentioned who manufactured the engines

Peter Andrew Montreal Canada

Did it just run out of fuel Simple question but nobody has mentioned it where was the fuel spillage

David Collard-Berry Haslemere UK

I immediately thought that software might be to blame when I first heard about the incident It is something of a truism that no software is free of bugs and quite frightening when you consider how many modern aircraft rely completely on it

Ernest Loughborough England

Great article On the subject of why they lowered the gear however note that there were no signs of trouble until they reached 600ft when the standard procedure is to lower the undercarriage at 2000ft It seems unlikely they would have had time to retract it again

Andrew Glagow Scotland

A well written article begins with There is a preference for flights into the airport to cross the capital in this direction because it is quieter than to have them take off over the city Around airports the direction of flight is governed by wind direction Lift is needed to control an aircraft it is generated by airspeed over the wings thus at low ground speed ( take off and landing) aircrafts fly into the wind to maximize airspeed (airspeed equals groundspeed plus windspeed) This is why runways are built in the direction of prevailing winds In London that is a 270 compass heading (or 090 in the opposite direction) The last zero is dropped and the runway when aproached from the East is named 27 (27L or left for the southernmost runway ) otherwise it would become 09R (Look on Google Earth) Noise reduction is a benefit derived from having Heathrow located upwind of London aircrafts take off westward (full power) away from the city Regards

Jp Demange Brussels

Does each tank have an indicator of fuel level Should a switch to a full tank not be implemented automatically before the start of landing Weve all run out of fuel in our cars at some time or other if were honest I did twice ( If its not a computer glitch (which it more than likely was) and they did run out of fuel wasnt that a close shave

Roz Belfast

Excellent article and I hate to pick any holes in it but they reason they were landing from the east is that the wind was blowing from the west This is the normal wind direction in most of UK and aircraft always land into wind to make landing easier and safer

jaydkay Reading UK

The pilot of BA038 found himself in a situation where he could not any more control lift (he had lost power and he could not lower the nose too much to regain airspeed otherwise he would have flown the airceraft nose first into the ground) He had run out of altitude (600ft is not very high when ou are loosing altitude) He is to be commended for having extended the flight path to its fullest before intersecting with the ground The Captain displayed extraordinary leadership talent for letting him continue flying the plane while assisting him Chapeau bas to both Gentlemen Regards

Jp Demange Brussels

Er did anyone check the gastank

Burgess Cramerton North Carolina

With plane approaching to land in London pax normally take out their mobile phones (i have observed) has someones mobile phone caused to affect the navigational system of the aircraft this is my gut feeling

John london England

Having just flown in 5 different 777s over the past 3 weeks (some of which belonged to BA) and covering some 25000 miles in the process I think you would have more chance of a power draining UFO landing on your roof than ahving a probelm in one of these magnificent aircraft

Mark Wyatt Sunshine Coast Qld Australia

Earlier this month a 14-year-old whizzkid derailed several trams on the computerised tramway system in the Polish city of Lodz using illegally acquired knowledge of the system and a tv remote control which he had adapted using his precocious computer skills to send signals to the tramway

computer to switch points (Daily Telegraph January 11) Just a thought

David Ciechanow Poland

If God had wanted us to fly he wouldnt have invented Heathrow

sue Winchester

maybe it was a ufo disguised as a plane-ha haha-steve tobias

martin dundee

ufos are known to interfere with powered devices ufos are seen all over the United Kingdom lately-- a plane goes down with odd loss of power and the reports naively say looking for reason of loss of powerduh how stupid can a planet get

steve tobias towson MD USA

I am flying from Singapore to Manchester 1st March by Singapore Airlines 777 Should I be concerned about this problem

William Jacobs Melbourne Australia

A long article but filled with real information Just what Id expect from The Times

Ernie Merced California

I think you could say it was fatal to the aircraft

Alan Cheltenham

An unusually fine article on a complex aviation topic I believe the 777 was the first to be approved for 180 minutes ETOPS (Extended-range Twin Operations) ltugtright out the factory doorltUgt Other aircraft carry that certification such as the B767 Airbus 310 and 330 ETOPS involves certain aircraft maintenance practices specific pilot training training for dispatchers and a certification process of the airline based upon continued high reliability of their fleet Aircraft have had to earn their ETOPS upwards from 60 minute to a 180 maximum Boeing achieved it (Equivalent to a golfers hole-in-one) right from the get-go saving airlines millions in fuel ETOPS saves fuel by flying a more direct route (saved dollars and ecological benefits) on trans-oceanic routes The possibility of a well placed device to damage the aircraft must be considered investigated talked about and hopefully ruled out The 777 is still likely the safest Aircraft flying ever

Marc Ottawa On Canada

Concise exact well written article also understandable to the layman

Daniel Nikles Kilaben Bay Australia

Great article very precise and descriptive

Damian Sydney NSW

There have been other jet aircraft to loose both engines on approach A 737 lost both engines on approach in the late 80searly 90s The engines were at idle when they went through heavy rain showers that extinguished both engines The aircraft made an emergency landing in a field The short term solution for that particular engine was to keep throttle above idle in those conditions I would imagine that this theory has already been dismissed since no one speaks of heavy rain Fuel leaking at the crash site does not mean much There will still be some fuel in the tanks when the pumps suck dry Fuel floats on water So there may have been water in the last few gulps That seems to be the most suspicious item Contrary to procedure ( fired for sure) they should have kept the gear up if they feared not making the runway Landing gear drag is very significant Belly landing better than crash and it could have been a major crash Former 777 LG system engineer

Gordon Issaquah WA

180 mins for Two Eng AC has been around since before the 777 however the 777 is the first aircraft to be given 180 mins without a proving time in servicea minor point I know and otherwise a well written article

Peter Thorpe Sydney Australia

At the risk of sounding paranoid has the possibility of a terrorist act affecting the electronicscomputer systems been considered by the experts

Sian Australia

Sometimes we have to search through a ton of dross to find the dram of gold The article really does show the quality level we are used to in the popular media Pity that we cant get quality like this much more often Funny isnt it that the quality of the article is the outstanding feature commented on

Bob Sewell Barcaldine Qld

Excellent article Well written and extremely well researched

Alex Hill Sydney Australia

I know nothing about aircraft and would not normally be interested However this long article is so magnificently researched and put together I read every word with fascination Award-winning stuff

Tim Dean London Englan

dont think you should call it a fatal flaw there were no fatalities

Barry chesham uk

I have to fly on one of these on Jan 29 Toronto to Sydney Good article

George Sansom Peth ON Canada

Good artical well writen well reserched and imforitive

Michael Riley Glasgow Scotland

I agree Excellent article even if a little dramatic

SN Austin Texas

Excellent article This first time I have seen such a comprehensive article on this topic Keep ip going I will read such articles should there be more of them relating to safety in the air

Elwyn Jenkins Sydney Australia

They ran out of fuel And deserve to be fired and imprisioned Their backslapping curry and congratulations for a job well done is inappropriate and BAs attempt to put a brave face on grave pilot error

Bobby Boca Raton USA

well done good written and wery profetional article Thanks

Oleg London UK

I agree

anthony winnipeg MB Canada

Excellent article Some failures however are not reported publicly My parents were on a flight operated by a middle eastern country One of its

engines blew out over the Mediterranean and the plane turned around and limped all the way home to avoid public exposure of the failure The US FAA was unaware of the incident

A Waterhouse Davis Ca USA

I have to agree with Peter thank you for an excellent article

Carrie Toronto Canada

What scares me is that the oxygen masks deployed and why would they do this at low altitude With the reported fuel leak having oxygen around is not a good thing

Tim Curtis Fife WA

It is refreshing to read an article about an aviation incident that is accurate and not full of speculative nonsense from the so-called aviation experts I only hope that the crew are not being elevated to hero status as the British Midland B737 pilots were which crashed at Kegworth in 1989 and then went from hero to zero rapidly when the results of the investigation were known

Paul Dubai UAE

This is an excellently researched article of a standard not usually seen in the media

Peter Wordsworth Sydney Australia

Damage photos seem to show at least one engine was powered at impact Could a computer glitch have caused premature deployment of thrust reversers-

ARBE Redmond USA- washington

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[ Reply to This ]

by Deekin_Scalesinger (755062) on Sunday January 20 1057AM (22117042)

A bit of FUD here I think - unless I read TFA wrong the entire thing is under investigation and no one is saying anything for at least a month The autopilot

apparently sensed the need for more thrust and warned the pilots of this It might be premature to say that a software problem is the likely cause of failure

by Alien54 (180860) on Sunday January 20 1109AM (22117100) Journal

It might be premature to say that a software problem is the likely cause of failure Unless it was running on an OS like Windows for Aircraft now with fewer crashes Yes I know its all custom designed But thinking about the infamous Windows for Warships [theregistercouk] I couldnt resist

Errrrr (Score5 Insightful)

by jorghis (1000092) on Sunday January 20 1202PM (22117462)

These OSes typically are not custom designed (although a few in older aircraft are) There are a few commercial rtoses that are commonly used they are

specially marketed to the avionics industry as conforming the DO-178B standard The most common would probably be Integrity-178B sold by Green Hills

Software and VxWorks 653 Platform sold by Wind River

Airplane Operating Systems (Score5 Funny)

ReAirplane Operating Systems (Score5 Informative)

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Documents

Slashdot | Failed Avionics a Possible Cause of BA038 Crashose/embedded/Slashdot - Failed Avionics a... · 2008-01-24 · Slashdot | Failed Avionics a Possible Cause of BA038 Crash