Signals & Train Control Group Attachment 13 · 490 L'Enfant Plaza East, Southwest . Washington, D.C. 20594 ... also a station processor project. ... anything more about the 304 incident

DCA09MR007 WMATA

Rear-End Collision Washington, DC

June 22, 2009

Signals & Train Control Group Attachment 13

NTSB Interview #4, WMATA, CIT - ATC Supervisor

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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD

OFFICE OF ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGES * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Investigation of: * * COLLISION OF TWO WASHINGTON * METROPOLITAN AREA TRANSIT * Docket No.: DCA-09-MR-007 AUTHORITY TRAINS ON THE RED LINE * NEAR TAKOMA PARK, MARYLAND * JUNE 22, 2009 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Interview of: CHRISTOPHER LUCAS WMATA Headquarters Jackson Graham Building, Room 2G02 Washington, D.C. Saturday, June 27, 2009 The above-captioned matter convened, pursuant to notice,

at 12:14 a.m.

BEFORE: RUBEN PAYAN, Investigator-in-Charge National Transportation Safety Board 490 L'Enfant Plaza East, Southwest Washington, D.C. 20594 (202) 314-6639

Free State Reporting, Inc. (410) 974-0947

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APPEARANCES:

RUBEN PAYAN, Investigator-in-Charge National Transportation Safety Board 490 L'Enfant Plaza East, Southwest Washington, D.C. 20594 (202) 314-6639 HARRY HEILMANN, Assistant Chief Engineer Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority 600 5th Street, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20001 ANTHONY GARLAND Amalgamated Transit Union Local 689 DANIEL HAUBER Tri-State Oversight Committee Transportation Resource Associates, Inc. 1608 Walnut Street, Suite 1602 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 AL NABB, Assistant General Superintendent Automatic Train Control and Communication LEVERN McELVEEN, Senior Safety and Security Specialist Federal Transit Administration New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, 4th Floor Washington, D.C. 20590 MARK JONES, Deputy Chief Railroad Division National Transportation Safety Board Washington, D.C. 20594


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I N D E X

ITEM PAGE

Interview of Christopher Lucas: By Mr. Payan 4 40 58 59 By Mr. Heilmann 14 45 56 59 By Mr. Garland 16 48 57 By Mr. Hauber 26 55 By Mr. Nabb 28 50 By Mr. McElveen 33 53 By Mr. Jones 35 54


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I N T E R V I E W

(12:14 p.m.)

MR. PAYAN: On the record. It's June 27th, just

after -- it's 12:15 p.m. and we are at the Jackson Graham Building

in Washington, D.C., WMATA headquarters. We are doing interviews

in connection with the train collision that occurred on Monday,

the 22nd. We're going to be interviewing Mr. Lucas.

INTERVIEW OF CHRISTOPHER LUCAS

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. Mr. Lucas, could you please state your name and spell

your last name, please?

A. Christopher Henry Lucas, last name L-u-c-a-s.

Q. And who is your current employer?

A. Current employer is Washington Metropolitan Area Transit

Authority.

Q. Okay. I have some boilerplate information that I'll

collect at the end, but I'll start off with could you please kind

of give us a run through on -- we're interested in the events

that --

MR. HEILMANN: Do you want to proceed with introductions

first?

MR. PAYAN: Oh. Yes, I'm sorry. Let me go around the

room and make -- introduce everybody that's here to you. I

apologize.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's wearing on you.


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MR. PAYAN: Yeah. Yeah.

My name is Ruben Payan. I'm one of the investigators

from the National Transportation Safety Board.

MR. HEILMANN: Harry Heilmann, assistant chief engineer

for automatic train control technology.

MR. GARLAND: Anthony Garland, ATU Local 689.

MR. HAUBER: Hi, Mr. Lucas. I'm Dan Hauber representing

the Tri-State Oversight Committee.

MR. NABB: Al Nabb, assistant general superintendent,

Track Structure Systems Maintenance, with responsibility over

automatic train control and communications.

MR. McELVEEN: Levern McElveen, the Federal Transit

Administration.

MR. JONES: Hi. Mark Jones, the deputy chief of the

Railroad Division, NTSB.

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. All right. Let me start all over again. We want to --

kind of would like for you to walk us through the events of when

you went on duty and what you did from the 17th and any

information you have up to when the accident happened that you

think might help us.

A. Okay. I come on duty usually around 10:00, take

call-ins up to 10:30, put together the crew assignments. That

night -- normally we have three projects: We have the Wee-Z bond

project; we have a US&S module project; and we have a two foot


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loop project, also a station processor project. The station

processor we send one person, the two foot loop project we send

three people, the US&S module installation we usually send three

people, and if we have a full crew, that leaves approximately five

people to do the Wee-Z installation.

That night we had the US&S module project -- Billy

Wright's on vacation, so they didn't come in. Unit 238, he

normally gets assigned to the module project. He was on vacation.

The module project engineer, William Talbert, was on vacation, so

we didn't have that project going. The two foot loop project

cancelled that night. So I had a full crew at Baker-06,

approximately 10 people. That would exclude 238, Billy Wright,

and one person we send for the station processor.

The goal was -- we've been pressed to get a station

ahead, if not more, of the module crew. And we had a bond on

Track Number 1, I believe, Wee-Z 39. We had a bond on Track 2,

Wee-Z 15 and Wee-Z 13. The goal was to get those -- one on Track

1 and one on Track 2 installed, or either to get Wee-Z 15 and 13

installed. These bonds are approximately -- I think your station

platform ends around 279. Wee-Z 15 is at approximately chain

marker 304, I believe. Wee-Z 13 is even farther out.

We dispatched the full crew out. They arrived

approximately 1:30. Average time getting onto tracks lately has

been around 2:00, 2:15, sometimes 2:30. The latest we've been on

tracks or even allowed access is around 3:00. If we get out later


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than a certain time, we do a short installation. A short

installation is where we leave the rail clamps, 1000 MCM clamps,

and all we do is install the US&S bond.

This night, I think they got out around 2:15, 2:30. I'm

not sure of the exact time. So we had a full crew. Jonita, Unit

280; and Ms. Jackson, Unit 2155, were in the room. The rest of

the personnel were on the wayside. I'm not sure whether that was

the particular night I went out, but I believe I went out that

night to survey the area, walked all the way down to the end of

the territory on Track 2, observed the crew at the chain marker

where the bond was, then I left. I can't be for certain that was

that night. But I left the work area, B06, came back to the

Carmen Turner Facility.

There was a call -- I'm not sure whether it was from

MOC, but there was some chatter about Baker-06 had a issue with

the interlocking, the track circuit. And I told them we hadn't --

we weren't working on the south end of the interlocking; we were

on the north end. And I found out that the Brentwood Yard crew

also had people in the room. I believe I called the train control

room trying to talk to my people. They were in the process of

adjusting the Wee-Z bond. I was told they were having issues and

I believe I advised them to stay and monitor two trains.

Normal procedure with the bonds, approximately a third

of the bonds we'll have problems adjusting and we'll have to bump

up the power. This particular night we had to increase the power


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from 30 to 55 percent. Jonita advised me that she was having

problems in adjusting it, or one of the crew advised me that they

were having problems adjusting it, and so I had her stay, her and

Mrs. Jackson. As far as that track circuit anytime later, I

didn't know that there was a ticket opened on it or if there was

one. I just knew that we had a problem adjusting it. And normal

procedure with Mrs. Dowling is a two-point verification. I've

seen her, with Mrs. Jackson on the wayside, they would do a

verification at the receiver and at the transmitter ends.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We may have to pause to turn the

lights on.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, just a second so I can get

the lights back on.

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. You can continue talking. We'll catch him up.

A. After that, they -- after they monitored the two trains,

they returned back to the shop. After that, I didn't hear

anything more about the 304 incident until, I believe it was

Monday, the 22nd, or whatever the 22nd was.

I believe we went up to try and install another bond.

I'm not sure. If that was a Wednesday -- Tuesday night/Wednesday

morning, the next night we may have gotten called off to support

work at C-10. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what night it was, but

we were going to try to get the rest of the bonds in and they had

a cut a cable over at C-10, and we were busy ferrying parts back.


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I don't know if that was the date following the 17th. I'm not

sure.

And that Friday -- Thursday night/Friday, that was the

end of our shift pick, and we did some housework and we stood

down. That pretty much covers the incident at B06, 304 track

circuit, as far as I'm concerned, my knowledge, until I came in

and found out that the collision had occurred.

Q. Okay. Thank you. Let me go back and kind of -- I made

some notes of some stuff I would like some clarification. You

said on the night of the 17th when they were working out there,

there were some Brentwood Yard people out?

A. Yes, B99, Baker-99.

Q. Is that ATC people?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. And where were they at?

A. They were in the train control room also.

Q. At?

A. B06.

Q. What's -- oh, Fort Totten?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Do you know what they were doing?

A. They were responding to an interlocking problem. I

don't know whether MOC, OCC had thought that we were actually

working in that area. But when I called the room, they told me

that some B99 personnel were in the room.


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Q. Is that where the territory splits somewhere around

there?

A. The B99 midnight shift, I'm not sure where their ending

territory is, but they might have been the closest personnel to

that train control room at that time.

Q. Okay, I see. Now you also mentioned Ms. Dowling's

normal procedure is two shunts for verification. What's the

procedure?

A. After we do the track circuit adjustment -- the 20-foot

hard shunt outside the receiver, we do the adjustment. The

verification is to verify track circuit at the transmitter. The

original PMI that I was aware of is inside the transmitter. But

this one we do 10 feet inside the transmitter, 10 feet inside the

receiver. Now if she did a third verification, I wasn't aware of

it.

Q. Okay. But the WMATA instructions that are provided to

her require only two?

A. I believe so. I'm not sure.

Q. Okay. But what procedure -- I mean, do they have a

number, procedure number that they follow or --

A. When I came to ATC in January, I -- I was a re-hire. I

came in for two weeks, approximately. I observed as a supervisor

the Wee-Z bond installation. There is no EMI or procedure for the

standard bond. There's a PMI for the high current bond. I sent a

request to the superintendent and, I believe, Mr. Glansdorf, and


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perhaps one other, for a installation procedure for the US&S bond,

the standard installation bond. And I received nothing back, so I

wrote one myself and sent it to him for comments or approval.

Q. And have you received those comments or approval?

A. I received a e-mail back that it looks good. I have a

copy of the e-mail, but I've been trying to get my sent e-mails

regenerated. But I did send out a procedure, which I took most of

it out of the EMI for the high current bond and some of it out of

the -- more so, this procedure was for general installation, how

to do this, how to do that as far as the physical aspect of

putting the bond in, drilling the holes, moving on to the next

location, and making sure we cleaned up off the wayside. But

there's also parts in that procedure for doing the adjustment, cab

signal testing, spillover command testing, etcetera.

Q. Okay. And you were the author of that?

A. You can say that.

Q. Okay.

A. But some of it, like I said, was pulled from the EMI,

some of it from the 1100 PMI, I believe.

Q. Okay. How long has -- as far as you're aware, how long

has this Wee-Z project, replacement project been going on?

A. My knowledge, I guess around four years. I know the --

some of the personnel that were on the shift had been doing it on

the D Line. When I came in, we were on the B Line north of the

B04, Rhode Island Avenue, platform. That's where I came onboard.


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And, apparently, they've done some on the D Line, outer D Line,

A03, A02, A01, and possibly B01, Baker-02. To my knowledge, I

believe those have the US&S bond and the US&S module installed,

but I'm not for sure.

Q. Okay. And to your best estimate, about how many Wee-Z

bonds have been replaced or put in service?

A. I wouldn't doubt a couple hundred.

Q. Couple hundred?

A. If not more.

Q. More? Okay.

A. I know we have -- we were doing some prep work at B07.

We dropped 40 bonds on the wayside just for B07 territory.

Q. Okay.

A. So you're talking about B04, B05, B06, then A03, 2, 1,

the outer D Line. It could be well over 200.

Q. Okay. Now you mentioned that there was a -- Ms. Dowling

called you or notified you that they were having problems?

A. Either I called the room and talked to them when

Central -- the chatter about the interlocking, because I knew we

didn't work there. And I talked to the personnel in the room.

They said they were having problems adjusting it, the track

circuit we were dealing with, which would have been the Wee-Z 15

installation.

Q. Okay.

A. Which is apparently 304 transmitter and -- yeah, 304


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transmitter, 301 track circuit receiver.

Q. So your conversation was about the track circuit they

were working on?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Were you aware that MOC reported 312 bobbing also?

A. No.

Q. Did Ms. Dowling ever mention it before or after?

A. Not to me. When I read the logbook -- Mrs. Jackson may

have told me that there was another track circuit that was bobbing

in the room. But 312 bobbing, we didn't have any physical

connection to 312.

Q. Okay.

A. We put the transmitter in for 304. The receiver for 304

is 312 transmitter. But we never had any connection with that

bond.

Q. Okay. As far as you know, no work was done on --

A. On 312.

Q. -- on 312?

A. No, none that I know of.

Q. Okay. Now what was your understanding when the crew

left for the night or for -- when the shift was over, what was the

condition that was left there?

A. My understanding that it was no problem.

Q. It was -- they had completed their work?

A. Um-hum.


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Q. Okay.

COURT REPORTER: I need you to say yes or no, please.

MR. LUCAS: Yes.

COURT REPORTER: Thank you.

MR. LUCAS: They had completed their work, yes.

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. Okay. Was this reported or assumed or I guess --

A. I didn't receive any indication --

Q. Okay. That's what I'm asking. Did --

A. -- to the contrary.

Q. Okay. You weren't notified otherwise that the work

wasn't completed?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. So you -- so it was assumed no report meant that

everything was finished?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Okay.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. I'm going to stop here now. I'm going to go

around the room and let other people ask questions.

MR. PAYAN: Harry?

BY MR. HEILMANN:

Q. You had mentioned that Jonita Dowling had told you they

were having trouble adjusting a circuit. Did she say, since she's

replacing a bond and you mentioned 304 and 301, was she having


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trouble with one or both of them? Did she mention which --

A. Jonita wouldn't have been talking to me. This would

have been Mrs. Jackson. Because Jonita's doing the adjustment.

Q. Okay.

A. So T -- we call her T. She would have had problems

adjusting 304. As far as 312, they told me that there was another

track circuit bobbing.

Q. Okay. But what I was asking was, she was having trouble

adjusting. There's two track circuits that she would have been

adjusting --

A. 301 and 304.

Q. She did -- she specified 304 that they were having

trouble with?

A. Not specifically, no. She just happened to say they

were having a problem adjusting the track circuits.

Q. And just one more clarification. T, does that refer to

Ms. Jackson?

A. Mrs. Jackson. Mrs. Jackson.

Q. Okay. All right.

A. 2155.

Q. All right. Thank you.

When you said that you put together the procedure

compiled from the other documents that you used and you sent it

for approval, you said you sent that to Madoff (ph.) and Glansdorf

for approval and you got back an e-mail that it looks good. Who


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did you get that e-mail from?

A. Mr. Glansdorf.

Q. Okay.

A. I also believe I sent it to Michael Smith. The reason I

sent it to him, he's been in ATC and he was superintendent of MOC,

and I sent it to him for any comments also. But initially there

was no procedure.

Q. Okay.

A. It was just put it in the ground.

Q. And the crews use this procedure -- every time they go

out and do a bond, do they follow the procedure or have they been

trained on the procedure? Are they all aware of the procedure?

A. The procedure was given -- I gave a copy to everyone.

And they have the datasheet and they know what needs to be filled

out. A lot of times the datasheets will come back the serial

number missing. And the other issue we was having, sometimes we

didn't have a full compliment of sniffers to verify speed

commands, and sometimes the speed command data wouldn't come back

on the datasheet.

Q. Okay.

A. Because we have three projects and each project requires

a sniffer, and at the time we didn't have three available.

MR. HEILMANN: I don't think I have any more questions.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Anthony?

BY MR. GARLAND:


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Q. The crew that went out that night to replace the

circuits for 312, was there a work detail for that work?

A. A work detail?

Q. Yeah.

A. As far as who's doing what?

Q. Yeah, was there a work assignment given?

A. Just a general work assignment. I have two people that

do track circuit adjustments, either Victor Grubbs, 2011; or

Ms. Dowling, 280. The other -- Victor's an A. Jonita, 280's, a

AA. The other AA I have, 238, is Billy Wright. He's assigned to

the module project.

Normally, when I dispatch the crew out, it either have

288 [sic] or 2011 in the crew, and it's understood either one of

them will do the adjustments. Everyone else is on the wayside

putting in the equipment. I have -- on the wayside I have 288,

Frederick Stitum (ph.). He's a C. And I have another B on the

wayside that have been doing the bond installation from previous

pick. So their experience, along with the new helpers, is what

does the physical installation.

As far as breaking it up into you do this, you do that,

no. Because sometimes after I satisfy the two foot loop project,

module project, depending on what left, I'll put a bond in if I

got someone qualified to adjust it. If not, it don't get put in.

Q. Now this particular assignment --

A. I had everybody out there.


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Q. Okay. This assignment didn't come from MOC; this was a

special assignment?

A. It's every night. Every night --

Q. This is done every night?

A. Every night you come in, if we have the manpower, you

putting Wee-Z bonds in the ground.

Q. Okay. But it didn't come from MOC?

A. No. It never does.

Q. Okay. But now when that group goes out perform those

duties, they get notification from Central or -- is that where it

comes from?

A. Um-hum.

Q. So Central has to give them authorization to be on the

track?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. No one just goes out on the track and start

performing duties?

A. No. Well, they would -- normally, the procedure is you

go to the location, contact Central Control around 12:30. The

average time lately of getting out there is between 2:00 and 2:30.

And it's even less than that because predominantly May you're

dealing with thunder and lightening at night and rain. If there's

heavy downpour we don't put it in. If it's thunder and

lightening, we don't go on the wayside.

Q. Okay. Do you know of any irregularities dealing with


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the bonds, the new bonds that have been -- that are being put in

with correlation with the modules, the new bonds and the old

modules that stay in place?

A. I've been told that there were issues between them by

previous crew members. And from my experience, the time I've been

there doing -- monitoring installations, like I said, there's a

percentage of the bonds you have to bump the power up. I was on

one installation where we couldn't get it to adjust. It was a

interlocking track circuit at B06, Track Number 2, and it will

cause the signal to drop. So we ended up standing by on the

wayside. We ended up having to take the bond out and put the old

one back in.

But, like I said, we've had instances where you have to

bump the power up just to get the track circuit to pick, do the

adjustments. And we try not to go above one level when we bump

the power up.

Q. Okay. Can you -- I need for you to help me understand.

A. Yes.

Q. When you say you came back into the department as a

supervisor --

A. I was a -- I came in there January 2006 and left in

October 2000 [sic]. I left as a supervisor. I was a ATC

technician from the time I was hired. I was a AA approximately

seven, eight years. And pretty much I've done everything on the

railroad as far as on ATC. When I left, I was a supervisor at New


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Carrollton.

Q. And when you left as an ATC technician --

A. Supervisor.

Q. I'm sorry. But you were a technician also --

A. Yes.

Q. -- before you left and come back? Did you see -- do you

see anything different in the way you work as a technician in

installing modules and the Wee-Z bonds currently? I know you say

you made recommendations when you came back as far as procedures,

having procedures as far as doing that kind of work. But did you

note any of that before you left?

A. Before I left, we never had a issue installing a Wee-Z

bond as far as power level. We put it in and it was a direct

match. Do the verification and adjustment.

These, some of them will go well. Some of them, like I

say, you'll put the bond in, you may have a couple hundred volts

on your transmitter. I would put up a module. Once you put the

bond in, you may lose 40, 50 percent of your power. And then

you -- it may adjust at that level and it may not. If it doesn't,

we end up stepping the power up one notch to see if we can get it

to adjust. But as far as the old bond installations, there never

was an issue. They were the same manufacturer.

Q. And that's what I was going to get to. Because with the

different manufacturers, with the old bonds and the modules --

replacing the old bonds with the new ones and leaving the old


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modules in, do you see a correlation where the speed readouts

would drop because of that?

A. That's the reason for the sniffer. We try to -- if we

have to adjust the power level, we need to look at the cab

signals. But, actually, cab signals we need to look at anyway.

Because if you put the new bond in, there's -- to me, I say

there's issues. Putting a new bond in, you're almost guaranteed a

power loss at the voltage coming out of the module. So you have

to look at the cab signal and make sure that is coming out okay.

The biggest problem I'll say we have, once we put a new

bond in, we have to compensate for the power loss of putting the

new bond in. And sometimes that power loss is enough that we have

to bump up the track circuit.

Q. So is that power loss because of the old module?

A. It's because of the new bond.

Q. It's because -- but I'm saying, but leaving the old

module there, does that contribute to the power loss?

A. Standard procedure, from what I've seen, we put the

bonds in, in this station. The US&S module installation crew is

in the station behind us. The push is to get the bonds in this

station so when they come in, we're not in their way.

They finished B05. We're trying to finish B06. And

there were three bonds left -- they were already in the room, but

there were three bonds left to install, one on Track 1, two on

Track 2, to where we could clear out of that room and go to B07


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and they could be in doing the module installation and adjustment.

There were some bonds that needed to be installed in the

interlocking and at the platform. Those are the only ones we

usually leave for when US&S is in the same room. Because the

platform bonds, I was told, when you put them in, if you got

bridging receivers, you have issues adjusting the track circuit.

So we hold off on those until US&S is -- I put in one of the

interlocking bonds and we had to snatch that one back out. So we

left those for when the US&S crew were there. So when we put a

bond in the interlocking, they're there to adjust it.

But that's our normal procedure. We put them in. Once

we got the room cleared out, US&S can come in to install the

module, which is the other half of the Wee-Z bond. Right now you

got -- B06 territory you got US&S bonds, GRS modules. And like I

say, sometimes with the US&S bond you have to bump the power up to

make it work.

Q. Do the workers from the -- the representatives from

US&S, do they ever give advice as to how that module and that

circuit could work together, those devices are not consistent with

the brand?

A. No, not really. Every now and then I'll talk to

Mr. Talbert (ph.). He's a -- I believe he's a ATC engineer. I'm

not sure. But he'll tell me about the module installation crew

and what they're doing, and sometimes I'll get feedback from him.

But there's usually nothing concerning the Wee-Z bonds. That's


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pretty much a project I walked in on.

Q. Who authorizes the procedures? Who approved the

procedures for installing bonds as far as WMATA is concerned?

A. There was none.

Q. There's still none? I know you said someone --

A. I wrote one.

Q. You wrote one?

A. Yes. I wrote a generalized procedure which covered most

of how to install the US&S high current bond, and I put in some

information in there about adjusting the track circuits. And most

of what I have in there is for the installation of equipment,

trying to keep the installations uniform.

Q. And that policy that you wrote, how would that differ

from the procedures that were followed with that crew that went on

the 17th?

A. Basic procedures are go out there, disconnect the old

bond after you notify Central. We do the drilling stage where we

drill for the newer rail clamps, the Cembre clamps, put the new

bond in, and do the adjustment and verification. And that all

depends on the window of time that Central Control gives us. If

it's too short, we won't -- a short installation is we don't

drill. We put the bond in, verify it and adjust it. Long

installation, take the old clamps out, drill, put the new bond in,

verify and adjust, depending on how much time we have when we get

out there.


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And like I say, the full procedure I wrote was from a

mindset of installing two bonds if you have enough time. But

usually we've been averaging one bond per night, if that. Like I

say, the month of May between thunderstorms, rain and getting out

there an average time 2:00, 2:30, you have limits what you can do.

Also, we're dealing with there's a lot of maintenance on the B

Line where we're backed up against the red tag. If you're backed

up against the red tag, you have to clear by 4:00. And we've had

instances where we're doing installations and we're out there at

5:30, but Central Control doesn't like it.

Q. So if there's a crew out there, before that crew can

call off, report to MOC whether they've made adjustments to the

circuits and there's still bobbing in that circuit, that crew

cannot -- they don't have the authorization to shut that track

down, am I correct?

A. I don't give them the authorization to shut it down,

but -- it's not in my procedure to shut it down. But being that

you're ATC, if you come to a situation where you need to shut it

down, you don't need Central Control's permission.

Q. Is that the practice?

A. No. But all I'm saying is, if you're an ATC, my

opinion, if you find something where you need to shut it down, you

shut it down and deal with the consequences.

Q. Okay. So if the crew reports to MOC that there's still

bobbing in the circuit, would that crew wait for a recommendation


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from MOC or would that crew wait for a recommendation from the

supervisor or would that be a carryon into the next shift and that

crew would go in, that crew would notify MOC, that crew would

notify the supervisor and that crew would put whatever notations

into Maximo?

A. If the track circuit's bobbing, normal procedure is to

be worked on. If there's a crew change over, it's still to be

worked on.

I was aware that they got the track circuit to adjust.

But I was also advised there was another circuit in the room

bobbing, and I believe that may have been 312. But like I say, we

didn't do any work on 312.

Q. And you had no knowledge of the Wee-Z bond 304 at that

time?

A. We installed Wee-Z -- track circuit 304 was the one they

were having problems adjusting.

Q. Okay. But which one was it that you didn't have

knowledge of when the crew called in?

A. Which one did I have no knowledge of?

Q. I think you said you -- when Ms. Jackson called you, you

had no knowledge of one of the circuits.

A. Well, Wee-Z 15 interfaces track circuit 304 receiver --

correction, 301 receiver; track circuit 304 transmitter.

Q. Okay.

A. So they would have had to adjust 301 and 304.


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Q. Okay.

A. And I was told they were having problems adjusting 304.

Q. Okay.

A. But they also said there was another track circuit

bobbing.

MR. GARLAND: I have no questions -- no more questions.

MR. PAYAN: Thank you. Dan?

BY MR. HAUBER:

Q. Again, I'm Dan Hauber from the Tri-State Oversight

Committee. Mr. Lucas, just not being from WMATA, I just need a

little bit of background on the set up of your crew within the

department overall. What type of work does your crew do,

generally?

A. CIT. We do escort work. We're doing ATC equipment

upgrades. The primary upgrades we're doing right now is the two

foot loop project. We provide support for a US&S module

installation project, and we are tasked with installing the US&S

minibonds. And we try to divide the crew up between those four

projects, appropriately.

Q. Does your crew get engaged in preventative maintenance

at all?

A. On the main line?

Q. Yeah.

A. Very rarely. Every night we come in there's usually

something to do. We're not a part of the so-called maintenance.


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Like I said, we come in at 10:30. Depending on what track rights

we have available and general orders is what I can assign as far

as work. If -- everything depends on general orders. If I don't

have track rights in an area to install equipment, I can't.

Previously, I had another supervisor putting in general orders

until I got assigned a log-in, and then I was putting in general

orders.

Once we do that, if it's -- the track rights are

available and I have the manpower available, I can do this, this

and this. And usually we have most of the crew. But a lot of the

priority is getting three people to the two foot loop project,

three people to the US&S project, one person on the station

processor project, and whatever's left I work with the US&S bond

installation, which can be five people. It can drop down to three

people. And depending on what time we get out there, we just

cancel the installation.

Q. As your crew is working through the different projects

and project support that you work on, could you just talk briefly

about how -- when there are issues that are identified. For

example, you talked about some of the bonds may not, you know,

install correctly the first time around, that sort of thing.

Could you just talk a little bit about how those issues are

resolved after each shift or after your part in the installation

is done, sort of how those things are handled?

A. Usually the resolution is -- most predominantly we have


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installations where they adjust okay. That percentage where we

have issues, they may tell me that they had a hard time adjusting

it or we had to crank the power level up, like I said. And one

thing I can say, they know they don't leave a territory without

the track signal being verified. That is -- anyone in ATC who

installs equipment on the track knows you don't leave the

territory without the track signal being verified.

Q. I don't think I have anything else. Thank you.

A. And --

Q. Sorry.

A. -- as I said, they go through a two-point -- at the

receiver and the transmitter, two-point verification. Now whether

they do the three-point procedure, I was told about that, but I

wasn't aware of that when I first came onboard at ATC. The

original procedure was one verification.

Q. Thank you.

MR. PAYAN: Al?

MR. HAUBER: Thank you.

MR. NABB: Okay. Al Nabb.

BY MR. NABB:

Q. Just a matter of trying to clarify. I know at the start

of your statement you mentioned a whole bunch of Wee-Z bond

numbers. Specifically, that night, how many bonds were installed?

A. I believe it was just Wee-Z 15.

Q. Wee-Z 15 was the only bond installed?


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A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now you indicated that your bond installation

crew is ahead of the ATP module installation crew.

A. Correct.

Q. While you were installing in B06, where was the ATP

module crew installing?

A. Baker-05. They had finished up Baker-05, took a week

off, came back. We were at B06. There was meetings -- I was told

there were meetings, where I had eventually requested to be

present, because there were complaints of ATC personnel being

behind schedule holding up the US&S module installation and,

evidently, there was no one speaking for the CIT group. Because

we've had a whole lot of issues just trying to get these bonds

installed dealing with the weather and getting track rights at

appropriate time.

Q. Okay. On the night in question when this bond went in,

are you aware of any of the circuits between B -- I guess it's

B06, which is Fort Totten, and B07, which is Takoma, that would

have had the new US&S ATP modules installed on any part of the

circuits?

A. There are none.

Q. There are none?

A. US&S, they have about four modules in the rack, but they

have no modules connected, to my knowledge. They have them stored

in the room in boxes, but we -- the boxes were in the way of us


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doing the bond installation as far as getting to the actual

receiver. So they were either moved to B06 -- some of them were

brought down to the CIT.

Q. Okay. When you're -- to the best of your knowledge,

when you are out there installing your bond, have you ever

encountered a condition in which you are installing a bond that

you have the old GRS ATP module and another part of the circuit

has the new US&S ATP module installed?

A. That would have been B05.

Q. Right.

A. There was one where we have a GRS module B06, US&S

module B05, and a US&S bond that was a split for Baker-05 --

Q. Five.

A. -- Baker-06.

Q. 06?

A. Yes.

Q. But not 06 to 07?

A. No.

Q. If when you encounter a split condition like that, is

there any change in the verification -- the adjustment and

verification procedure that's needed?

A. Depending, who you have -- the technician has to know

how to adjust either a GRS module or a US&S module. Most of our

track circuits --

Q. So your answer is yes?


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A. There's only been one instance, which was B05, where

when we went to B06 they already had replaced the module for the

split track circuit on the same track, which was Track 1.

Q. On Track 1?

A. On Track 1. We had a US&S module on Baker-05, like I

say, US&S bond in the split, and a GRS ATP module at B06.

Q. Okay. You indicated you wrote the procedure.

A. Um-hum.

Q. Okay. Did that -- what did that procedure contain as

far as recording information on the bond installation?

MR. PAYAN: Want to see it -- reference it? The

attachment won't come off.

MR. LUCAS: I put together the datasheet and the

procedure trying to capture everything that would be required for

the installation.

BY MR. NABB:

Q. So there was a datasheet?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it there?

A. I know he -- I think he has one over there, but -- yeah,

this is the data.

Q. Okay. That's the datasheet then that accompanies that

and is given to the technicians at the time of the -- that they

install?

A. Correct.


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Q. Okay. And based upon that datasheet, how many shunt

verifications are they required to do?

A. This is taken from the old ATC 1100 PMI, which required

one.

Q. So on that datasheet it requires one shunt verification?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Okay.

COURT REPORTER: Yes?

MR. LUCAS: Yes.

BY MR. NABB:

Q. And now how many -- your procedure, how many shunt

verifications were required according to your procedure you wrote?

A. I just have it in the procedure to verify according to

the 1100 PMI.

COURT REPORTER: Sorry, I can't hear.

MR. LUCAS: The procedure I have written is according to

the 1100 PMI. They have a copy of the 1100 PMI. They're supposed

to verify according to the 1100 PMI.

BY MR. NABB:

Q. PMI.

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

A. Not to my procedure. They're supposed to verify track

circuits according to the general procedures issued to ATC. This

is more of a guide for the installation.


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Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.

MR. NABB: That's all the questions I have.

MR. PAYAN: Thank you. Mr. McElveen?

MR. McELVEEN: Levern McElveen, Federal Transit

Administration.

BY MR. McELVEEN:

Q. Mr. Curtis --

A. Lucas.

Q. Lucas. I'm sorry.

A. Yes.

Q. What time is your general order normally for on a given

work night?

A. They go to the general orders 0030 to 4:30. That's on

paper.

Q. Right. Right.

A. We contact Central around 12:30 to 1:00. After they're

finished moving prime movers, whatever else they maybe move, 1:45,

average 2:00 to 2:30. You're looking at a awesome night if we can

get out there by 1:30.

Q. In terms of the procedure you -- let me clarify, you

said that when you came back, there was no procedure for

installing?

A. Correct.

Q. And so you developed one?

A. Yes.


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Q. And you distribute it for concurrence and all that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now in doing so, is there a standard process for

developing procedures? I mean, you wrote down the procedure and

it could be the best procedure in the world, and you sent it for

various people to concur. But is that the standard process for

developing a procedure?

A. No. All I was working on is we're putting equipment in

the ground and we don't have any.

Q. Did you make that known to whoever you report to, there

are no procedures for --

A. It had been known before.

Q. But never a procedure developed for this?

A. There's a procedure for high current bond installation.

Q. Okay. But not for --

A. No. And when I got there, like I say, I observed the

technicians installing and -- for a couple weeks and realized

that, if nothing else, you need to track serial numbers of the

equipment. And I asked if there was a procedure and there was no

response. And people had told me there was no procedure, so I

wrote a standardized installation.

Q. Right.

A. We had to have something.

Q. Right. You used the term pushed, you're pushed with the

limited amount of time you have to get out there. Define what you


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mean by pushed to get the bonds installed.

A. There's a meeting that I requested to my assistant

superintendent that I participate in. There's a meeting involving

the engineers, I believe, US&S personnel, and whomever, because

CIT was getting a bad rep. Because they're saying we're not

getting these bonds in to where we're ahead of them. And I wanted

to show up and tell them exactly why, because we're dealing with

weather issues, getting on the tracks issues and equipment issues.

And I didn't like the fact that they were saying, well, we're

holding you up, when in fact it's we're dealing with thunder,

lightening, track rights. And sometimes we get people pulled off

in other instances to support the US&S module installation.

The bottom line, the way I had set things up, the

priority was going to be projects that had contracts coming in,

which would have been your US&S two foot loop project, US&S module

project. Whatever people I had left would do the Wee-Z bond

installation. If we had -- and there have been instances where I

had to pull people off that could have done bond installation to

support the US&S module project. But bottom line, as far as being

pushed, it came through the grapevine that we're holding them up

as far as bond installation. My understanding is we were supposed

to be one row ahead, if not more.

MR. McELVEEN: I have nothing further.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Thank you. Mark?

BY MR. JONES:


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Q. Yes. Mr. Lucas, do you recall -- I think you made the

statement earlier that you had -- there was one time at Fort

Totten you had to put the original GRS bond back in. Do you

recall when that was and was it because you couldn't get the --

A. Couldn't get it to adjust.

Q. -- to adjust?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall about when that was?

A. Approximately 2½, maybe 3 months ago. It was at -- on

the inbound track, I believe, at signal 8. The Wee-Z bond -- it

may have been the receive-receive bond that we put in. And the

crew adjusted it. The signal was dropping in front of trains. So

we ended up staying over. I was on the wayside that day. And it

ended up that after rush hour, we ended up taking that bond back

out again. Because it caused enough issues to the point we just

took it out. We couldn't get that one to adjust.

Q. Do you know what was done with that bond?

A. It's back at -- I believe it's back at Carmen Turner

Facility. I was told later that that particular track circuit has

two Wee-Z bonds, one of them on the straight through and one on

the turnout, that they would both need to be installed at the same

time. Now whether that's true, I don't know. But my assumption

was you could put them in one at a time.

Q. Do you recall which bond that was that didn't --

A. Let me see, 3, 4 -- I believe it was Wee-Z 6, Wee-Z 6 or


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Wee-Z 7. It's -- like I say, we got signal -- on your inbound

track, I believe you have a 8 to 6 route at Baker-06. The first

receive-receive bond that you would come over, I believe that is

the one we put in, took it back out.

Q. Do you know what the normal time is for when you put in

the new bond to when the new modules are installed, what the

normal length of time is?

A. Actually, it's been up to perhaps three months. We --

when I came on, the module installation crew was at Baker-04,

Rhode Island Avenue. We were finishing up B04. We finished up

B04, finished up B05, and started on B06. So B05, Takoma, it may

have taken perhaps a month to two months. Because when we

finished up B04, they still hadn't done the interlocking circuits

which require both tracks. And it took them a long time to get

track rights to have both tracks. Because you got to have the

whole interlocking to test, and that took quite some time.

Q. Are you aware of any written requirement for the new

bonds when they're installed for verification of the shunt three

times, shunt the track three -- or three different locations?

A. I found out about it, but I wasn't aware of it.

Q. You weren't aware of the new procedures for that?

A. No.

Q. Does WMATA do formal training for the technicians when

they, you know, like join the ATC crew? Is there a formal

training process?


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A. When I came onboard, usually within one year you were

trained on all of ATC. And I've been told lately they've broken

up the ATC training program to the point where they may be here

seven years and haven't been through the complete course.

But, like I say, when I came on, they trained you how to

crank a blocked switch, which was basic required knowledge, and

within approximately a year you went to ATC school, which took --

I don't know how many weeks or months it was, but you covered all

of ATC and then you were sent back in the field. There are

personnel now that may have been here seven years and never

completed all of ATC training.

Q. Do you know if any of the formal training includes

adjustment verification of track circuits?

A. I believe so.

Q. Okay.

A. It would have to, yes.

Q. That's part of the -- okay. Going back when you, you

know, a few years ago when you were a technician and you talked

about -- I think you said that you normally didn't have any

problems with the old GRS bonds. Do you recall, you know, any

instances of having -- involving track circuit problems or loss of

shunt of the trains, you know, reports after the installation of

any of the --

A. The older bonds?

Q. -- of the old bonds?


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A. No. The problem with B06, 304 track circuit -- like I

say, the technicians don't leave without verifying and

adjusting -- or adjusting and verifying, in that order. And they

had to bump the power up just to get it to work. And you have a

.06 ohm shunt or whatever the value of a shunt is that's used for

verification.

And if they verified it according to the procedure, if

it was still bobbing, my understanding of ATC is you have a

permission with not -- you have a issue with not enough power

getting to the receiver, which would have been at chain marker, I

believe, 312, which is a substation return bond. And when you put

a six car train in there, my understanding, that's like 24 more

shunts in the track circuit that you're already having issues with

trying to pick, pick up. That was my understanding when I found

out about it.

But as far as your GRS original installation equipment,

I've never -- the time that I was here, I never saw an instance

where -- one instance, and I was the one that did the adjustment,

at Brentwood Yard. They say it picked up under a train, trailed a

switch. But there were some issues at that location that weren't

addressed because they adjusted it. And when I came back on the

job, it was still picking up under a train. But that's the only

instance I've ever seen a GRS bond do something it wasn't supposed

to do.

Q. Okay.


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A. If you put one in the ground, there was no issue of

having to bump the power up to get it to work. It's pretty much a

one-for-one installation.

Q. Thank you very much.

MR. PAYAN: All right. Are you doing okay?

MR. LUCAS: Yes.

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. Okay. I got a few follow up. Mark kind of touched on

it. I kind of just want to spend a little more -- on this US&S

module project you have, is it just WMATA people or are you

actually working with US&S and people?

A. US&S contractors.

Q. They're out there with you? So when you install the

modules, they do an adjustment again?

A. They do the adjustment. We send out -- we have one

person in the room, the AA. He dispatches people on the wayside.

They do the verifications.

Q. What procedures to they follow for verification?

A. They're directed by the US&S module group as where to

place the shunts for adjustment and where to place them for

verification.

Q. And with instructions from US&S people or from WMATA

instructions?

A. I believe it would be a combination of both. That -- I

haven't seen a actual procedure for module installation per se.


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It's just something that we support them. Our personnel place the

shunts; they do the verification.

Q. And you said that --

A. And we adjust.

Q. You kind of answered my question. Do they have written

procedures? You say you didn't -- you haven't seen them.

A. I'm not aware of them, if there are.

Q. So when they do the verifications, your people are on

the field. Is US&S instructing them where to shunt or when to

shunt or do they turn it over and say verify it?

A. Yes.

Q. Which one?

A. We have the people -- US&S in the room. I have a AA in

the room. I have usually two technicians on the wayside directed

by the AA where to do the adjustment shunt, where to do the

verification shunts. Now I've never asked him whether he has a

procedure or if he's following a PMI, but I'm quite sure they've

been doing it according to the WMATA standards.

Q. How many shunts are they putting down, if you know?

A. It may be two shunts. I'm not sure.

Q. Two shunts?

A. Yes.

Q. Possibly at either end, transmitter and --

A. Either end -- transmitter end and receiver end.

Q. Okay. Possibly?


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A. Yes.

Q. You're not aware of the exact procedure?

A. Right.

Q. You mentioned short installation, long installation.

A. Yes.

Q. Is the only difference the short installation has no

drilling? Is that the only difference?

A. Correct. If we get out on the wayside at too late of a

time, we just use the old 1000 MCM clamps and put the new bond to

that connection and adjust it and verify.

Q. Was 304 a short or long installation?

A. 304, I believe, was a long installation.

Q. Long installation?

A. Yes.

Q. And if -- when you do a short installation, does it

require you to go back and bring it up to a long installation

standard?

A. Yes. Yes. What we do, we go back and drill the holes

for the Cembre.

Q. Oh, okay. So you put it in place and then go back

and --

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. Are you aware or have you been notified of any --

when your module team goes out there, of any changes in the track

circuit when there's -- well, let me rephrase it. I guess they


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wouldn't be the ones. Whenever there's a US&S and GRS modules or

bonds out there, have you been aware or do you know of where

tracks -- the track adjustments or track conditions, track circuit

conditions changed over time?

A. After this incident, I was told of one on Track Number 1

at Baker-06. In the same general area you've got two substation

returns. One substation return is 304 receiver. Directly across

from it is a substation return for a transmitter track circuit. I

was told that a train picked up underneath of that track circuit.

But this was after this accident had occurred.

Q. It was after the accident?

A. Yes. And I was told that that bond -- no, I'm saying I

was told of it.

Q. Yes.

A. But that bond --

Q. You were told after the incident? You --

A. Yeah, that this incident had occurred.

Q. Okay.

A. But I was told that that bond had been taken out but had

been directed to be put back in.

Q. The substation return bond?

A. Yes.

Q. And the other end was a GRS still?

A. That bond may still be a GRS bond. I'm not sure of

that. I believe it's one of the ones we needed to change. There


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was, I believe, three bonds on both tracks that we needed to

change. And I believe either that bond is original GRS or it's

been replaced with US&S within the past two weeks.

Q. Okay.

A. But I'm thinking it may still be GRS. I'm just not

certain.

Q. Have you run into any -- during any of your bond

replacement projects or locations, have you run into any problems

with cables going from the control room to your -- to the Wee-Z

bonds that you've had to either megger or replace or do anything

with?

A. There are bonds -- there are cables at Baker-06 that

have been -- the original installation has been replaced and new

cables routed from the room to a junction box to the Wee-Z bond.

When I was here before, we had issues with B06 where some of the

cabling was going bad and we ended up replacing some of the

original installation wires with other pairs or having to do new

wiring.

Q. You say when you were here before, not part of the Wee-Z

bond project?

A. No, when I was here before as a AA mechanic, we've had

issues at B06 where we've had to replace wiring or use spare

wires.

Q. Uh-huh. Okay. How long ago was that? Do you recall?

A. Probably within -- perhaps '95 to 2000, within that time


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frame.

Q. Okay. But how about during the Wee-Z bond project, do

you -- does your crew ever get involved with meggering?

A. No.

MR. PAYAN: I think that's all I have. I'll go around

the room one more time. Harry?

MR. HEILMANN: Yeah. Thank you.

BY MR. HEILMANN:

Q. I got confused when you were answering some of the

questions. When you first started, you said you started in

January and --

A. I was hired --

Q. -- then later, later it came out -- was it January 2006,

is that right?

A. I was hired January 2000 [sic], this year.

Q. January 2009?

A. Yes.

Q. I just wanted -- okay. So --

A. Re-hire, yes.

Q. So now you said you've recently seen some instruction on

installing the bonds and the verification shunts on the -- since

this accident, right, is that what you were saying?

A. I was at B06 this morning and I saw a procedure that

described the three-point shunts.

Q. But let me ask you then, was that a --


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A. It was some kind of T notice.

Q. It was a procedure with a number T111 at the top? Okay.

Are you aware of the October 2006 bulletin about the Wee-Z bond or

impedance bond compatibility between Alston bonds and GRS bonds

and the Union Switch & Signal bonds?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a document called System

Integrity Maintenance Practices?

A. I believe I may have read some of it. I'm not sure.

Q. When you talked about the night of the Wee-Z bond

change, Ms. Dowling had passed information to you, whether she

talked to you or not, about the bobbing condition. And that was

for 304 circuit -- you knew that it was the 304 circuit that

was -- she was referring to or that they were having trouble with.

When the shift was over, did you have a turnover from her that

everything had been completed properly and that that circuit was

now corrected?

A. No.

Q. No turnover that she had opened a -- or called MOC for

follow-up work?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Are you aware of or familiar with the impedance

bond installation procedures in the original equipment

manufacturers manuals from Alston and the Union Switch & Signal?

Did you use some of that for your procedure?


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A. Any of the information in this procedure was either

pulled from the high --

Q. High current bond --

A. -- high current bond EMI as far as the Cembre, the

installation around the station platform. Anything else

references the 1100 PMIs or there's a T221 for cab signal testing.

There's another T reference sheet for spillover on circuits.

Basically, this procedure is to get to us -- get us to the point

where we got a standard installation.

Q. Yeah. It sounds like --

A. Not voiding out anything WMATA, but getting it so you

put each bond in the ground and it looks the same.

Q. By the way you've described it, it sounds like you

collated all the different procedures that affect your work and

put them all into one document.

A. But it all -- towards the end, it references everything

WMATA as what you're supposed to do for verification.

Q. Okay.

A. Bottom line, we didn't have one and I wrote something so

we could standardize it.

Q. I only have one other question and that's, you mentioned

Brentwood GRS bond picking under a train and --

A. Um-hum.

Q. Can you estimate approximately when that was?

A. I was a AA at Brentwood. Mr. Pennington was still here.


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So that's a while back. But this particular module I had had to

do a two times adjustment.

Q. Okay.

A. I had to do adjustment and apparently the train trailed

a switch coming out of Brentwood yard on the platform.

Q. Okay.

A. I believe that's a 25 switch, somewhere in there. And

following due process, I got time off. They said I did a

incomplete -- improper adjustment. But the track circuit was

adjusted while I was off, and when I came back to work I verified

that it still picked underneath the train.

Q. Was this track circuit a interlocking track circuit --

A. Yes.

Q. -- a receive-receiver bond?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Okay.

MR. HEILMANN: I don't have anything else.

MR. LUCAS: And, like I said, that was the only instance

I've ever noticed one picking up underneath the train.

MR. PAYAN: Mr. Garland.

MR. GARLAND: Anthony Garland, ATU Local 689.

BY MR. GARLAND:

Q. Are the WMATA ATC technicians trained on split

circuitries, GRS and US&S circuitries and bonds?

A. I haven't.


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Q. So any official training?

A. Not at my knowledge.

Q. And if an ATC technician is out in a work location and

sees a split circuit, what would happen?

A. As far as the compatibility issues, to my knowledge if

you have US&S bonds on wayside and a GRS module in the room, the

only thing you can go by is the 1100 PMI that's written for GRS

original equipment. That's the only PMI that I know of that

they uses. If there's a new one, I haven't been made aware of it

for adjusting a GRS module to a US&S bond. If there is one, I

haven't been made aware of it.

Q. The incident that you spoke of at Fort Totten, was that

a split circuit?

A. Which one?

Q. The one you say -- you mentioned the incident about

three or four months ago.

A. Yes. All of Fort Totten currently is GRS modules, US&S

bonds, except for the ones where we didn't put them in, which

would be at your platform tracks and in the interlocking and the

three on the northbound end of the station. Everything else is

US&S bond on the ground, GRS module in the room.

Q. Okay. What role does the engineering department play in

installation of bonds and do they recommend procedures installing?

A. I say this. I sent this -- a request up for a procedure

when I got here because there was none.


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Q. And it went to the engineering department?

A. I sent it to, I believe, my superintendent and I believe

I sent to Mr. Glansdorf. I may have I sent it to someone else.

But I requested a procedure for installing US&S bonds. And my

feedback from the crew before I sent it was there was none.

Q. Do you know of any incidents where a failed shunt test

or bobbing of a Wee-Z circuit caused a technician to take a track

out of service?

A. Since I've been back, no. But when I was here before as

a technician, like I said, if I had a problem where there was

unsafe movement, then I would take it out of service.

Q. Have you ever taken one out of service?

A. I've taken switches out of service.

Q. I mean, I'm talking about the track. Have you ever

taken the track out of service?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

MR. GARLAND: That's it. No more questions.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Dan?

MR. HAUBER: I don't have anything further. Thank you.

MR. PAYAN: Al?

MR. NABB: A few questions.

BY MR. NABB:

Q. When did you leave WMATA prior to coming back at this

time?


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A. October --

Q. In other words, what was your break in service?

A. October 2000. I was here from January -- correction,

February of 1986 to October of 2000.

Q. And you came back here when?

A. I think January 12th, 2009.

Q. 9? Okay. Are you aware of anything called a loss of

shunt --

A. I was aware of that a couple days ago. I ran --

Q. Before or after the incident?

A. After.

Q. Okay. You indicated earlier that ATC was getting a bad

rap because you were not getting the bonds in, in a timely manner.

A. Yes.

Q. And you used the term "they" making that reference. Who

was "they" referencing that was giving ATC the bad rap? You just

used the all -- terminology "they."

A. I'm assuming it was personnel with -- dealing with or

relating to US&S. That's why I wanted to be at the next meeting.

Because I was told that there's a meeting involving engineering,

contractors' representatives, and perhaps US&S, but there was no

ATC representative.

Q. Okay. So the US&S personnel you're referring to then

were involved with which project?

A. The module project. The module project --


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Q. The module project?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

A. The module project is depending on us, and their -- I

guess, their condition was they would like us one station ahead.

Q. Okay. You made a statement that the technicians do not

leave the territory without the track circuit being verified once

you put the bond in.

A. That's standard ATC. If nothing else, you don't leave a

track circuit unverified.

Q. Okay. Under what conditions would you -- would there

then be a need to do a PMI of that circuit the next day?

A. As far as my knowledge, the fact that they did a PMI the

next day is if something happened. Because when you do a ATC 1100

PMI, you're doing a whole track, not a specific track circuit.

You're coming and do from one end to the other.

Q. Okay. Okay. You mentioned that your procedure that you

wrote required that the verification be in accordance with the PMI

procedure. Is that your -- what you stated earlier?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And how many shunt verifications does that take?

A. The original procedure we had was one shunt, one

verification.

Q. Okay.

A. The technician that was doing the adjustment, I've


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always seen two. And if she does three, I haven't seen the third,

but I've always seen two.

Q. Okay. So you personally have observed Ms. Dowling doing

two-point verification?

A. Yes.

Q. And where were those verifications?

A. Transmitter and receiver --

Q. And receiver.

A. -- 10 feet inside the circuit.

Q. Has she ever, after installing a bond and doing circuit

verification, has she ever turned in any datasheets or anything

documenting three shunt verifications?

A. Not that I'm aware of, no. But, see, the form that I

have is a old 1100 PMI form for the actual track circuit. I took

this form and created it off of the track circuit datasheets that

are in each room. So whatever is on that form, it may not be that

it has space to indicate three shunts.

Q. Okay.

MR. NABB: That's all I have.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Mr. McElveen?

MR. McELVEEN: Yeah. Levern McElveen, Federal Transit

Administration.

BY MR. McELVEEN:

Q. Just one question, Mr. Lucas. Have you or employees

been informed that if you are to use a manufacturer procedure, is


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that procedure then referenced in to WMATA's procedures? In other

words, even if they're going to use the manufacturer procedure, is

there something in writing that says WMATA is using for this

particular action or activity the manufacturer' procedures?

A. Not that I'm aware of.

MR. McELVEEN: That's it.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Thank you.

Mark?

MR. JONES: Just a couple. Mark Jones.

BY MR. JONES:

Q. I think you -- you're familiar with an Alstom and the

GSR procedure manual?

A. More so the GRS/Alstom compared to US&S.

Q. I'm sorry. I said Alstom and GRS. Forgive me. GRS and

US&S procedure manuals, are you familiar with both the GRS and

US&S?

A. More so with GRS. The procedure that I wrote, though,

has in there specifically GRS adjustment procedures, AF800W

adjustment procedures, which is for the new module and the old

module. Depending on whichever module is in the room, that's the

procedure you follow to adjust it. And as far as the bond on the

wayside, you always have 20 foot adjustment and verifications.

Q. And at any location where you have the GRS or US&S or

both, are all locations -- are manuals available at all locations?

Are they kept there or how are the manuals maintained?


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A. That part I can't say. Whether the AF800W installation

and maintenance manual is in every train control room, I can't

say. The GRS PMI should be in every train control room. As far as

the AF800W, I can't say.

Q. Okay. When you do, you know, any tests and do the

verifications and so forth, I take it you're required to fill out

the record -- or whoever does it is required to fill out the

record of the test. Where is that record maintained or how is

that -- do you have to forward it on?

A. They come to me. I've been asked to forward them to

engineering. I haven't forwarded some of the information to

engineering. I've been trying to get the complete information.

Some of them have been returned without serial numbers and, as I

said, some of them we don't have the sniffer data on it, which is

the cab signal data, on the particular modules. But the process

is to come to the field office and then they go to engineering.

Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.

MR. HAUBER: Ruben, could I have one more question?

MR. PAYAN: Sure.

MR. HAUBER: Do you mind?

MR. PAYAN: Yes, sir.

MR. HAUBER: Again, it's Dan Hauber from the Tri-State

Oversight Committee.

BY MR. HAUBER:

Q. Mr. Lucas, could you describe what, if any, training or


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orientation occurred when you -- specifically, on WMATA train

control procedures you might have gone through or received when

you came back as a supervisor this year?

A. Basic orientation. As far as specific training

procedures, there have been none as far as the -- relating to this

US&S bond project. There is no procedure period. I mean, the

installation technicians, there's no procedure. Like I say, there

was none when I came here. Now before I left, I was very

knowledgeable as a technician, ATC, and a supervisor. Now there

have been new equipment upgrades, etcetera, etcetera. I haven't

learned everything that there is that I need to learn as far as

the new equipment, but basic installation practices, you don't

forget them. The basic installation practice with a track

circuit, you change a bond, you adjust it, you verify. As far as

me getting training on adjusting and verifying these track

circuits, you have the 1100 PMI or whichever track circuit or PMI

you're dealing with. Whether it's an AF800 or the GRS, you follow

the adjustment procedures, which I reference those. But as far as

me personally getting re-trained in ATC, I haven't been.

Q. Thank you.

BY MR. HEILMANN:

Q. I'd like to also follow up on Mr. Jones' question

because I think I interpreted the question differently than you

did based on your answer. He asked about the data, where is the

data recorded and kept, and I think he was referring a permanent


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location for the data where someone can look at the data if they

need to or -- you said that these datasheets were returned to the

field office and you have them. Are they -- is this data recorded

anywhere else?

A. It's recorded in the train control room. As far as the

installation, all the data for a bond installation is recorded in

a TCR -- we have a track circuit PMI and an adjustment book. All

the data is recorded there and the same data is copied into this

form here, which is a duplicate of it. So it's -- currently it's

in the train control room, the primary source. And I have the

datasheet that they fill out which has that data, the location

bond installation data, chain marker, etcetera, when it was

installed.

MR. HEILMANN: That's all.

MR. PAYAN: Yes, sir? Mr. Garland.

BY MR. GARLAND:

Q. The policy for the -- never mind, I just lost my train

of thought. The ATC technician stunt [sic] verifications, you

said there's a policy for two shunt test verifications or is there

three?

A. I've seen a -- what is there a T111?

Q. Yes.

A. I've seen something where they talk about three shunts.

This technician, I've seen her direct wayside crew to do two

shunts. She may have done three. I've only seen the two.


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Q. How are they trained? Are they trained to do two or are

they trained to do three?

A. According to the PMI, that is all I can tell you. As

far as training them on the actual PMI, I've given them the PMI.

And basically what is in the PMI is what we go by.

Q. Okay.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Anybody else?

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. I just have some background information questions. From

your date hire, can you kind of just give us a brief detail of

your career and approximate years?

A. February 2006 [sic], I came on at ATC. I was hired by

Carey Vaughn (ph.). I believe within a year I went through ATC

school. I was number one in the class. As a helper, I went to

either, I think, Brentwood or New Carrollton where I progressed up

through the ABCs.

When I got assigned to Brentwood Yard, I took an upgrade

exam. Bill Sykes was the region manager and I ended up getting

assigned to Brentwood Yard where we had a yard that was a mess. I

think Harry can vouch for that. And I ended up pretty much we had

to fix up the whole yard and a lot of main line problems. As far

as technical skills, I would have to say as a AA there was myself

and a few more AA's I could count on two hands that you could call

to get the job done.

Q. Okay. And what's your current title?


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A. ATC supervisor, midnight shift, CIT.

Q. And how long have you been in that position?

A. Since, I believe, January 12th of 2009.

MR. PAYAN: Yes?

BY MR. HEILMANN:

Q. I wanted to back up to the very beginning where you

started with your career. You said you were hired by Carey Vaughn

in February of 2006 and that you worked --

A. '86.

Q. Thank you.

A. '86.

MR. PAYAN: '86. Okay.

MR. LUCAS: 1986.

MR. PAYAN: Okay. Thank you.

BY MR. PAYAN:

Q. Current responsibilities, what does your job entail?

A. We manage the -- four projects right now. We have, like

I said, one person supporting station processor. We have a two

foot loop project. We have a US&S module project and we have a

Wee-Z bond installation project.

We -- excuse me, we've had a lot of concentration on the

two foot loop project because recently we've had to also go back

and do coupling transformer adjustments, because there is

compatibility issues between that loop and the actual module. So

we have to go back and readjust the configuration so it doesn't


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blow a fuse.

Q. Okay. Approximately how many people report to you?

A. I come in at 10. So they all check in usually with me.

Q. About how many, how many people?

A. Twelve.

Q. Twelve people? Okay.

A. Full crew is 12 people.

Q. And your reporting point is?

A. Carman Turner Facility.

Q. Okay.

A. Now we have two supervisors. For Human Resources

purposes, they say we are split six and six. But when it comes to

setting up crews and whatever, we don't look at it that way,

because sometimes it doesn't work out. So we just -- you're doing

this, you're doing that, you do this.

Q. Okay. Do you have a specific territory or are you

system-wide?

A. Right now the two foot loop project, they can go

anywhere but they are concentrating more so on the B Line,

depending on where they have track rights to install two foot

loops. US&S module project is currently at Baker-06. The Wee-Z

bond process is -- we're finishing B06. We dropped off all the

bonds on the wayside for B07.

Q. Okay. That's all the questions I have. I'd like to

kind of ask you is there anything that you would like to add that


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you think might help us, anything that you think we missed that

would help us in this investigation or any thoughts? We're open

to any thoughts you have also concerning this.

A. I think my technicians, whether it be 280, Ms. Dowling;

or 2011, Victor Grubbs, are more than competent as far as

adjusting the track circuits. The issues that we come across

dealing with the US&S bond and a GRS track circuit, a lot of times

you come into the room you're hoping that you don't have issues

running into getting to the revenue service.

We have a certain window that we can deal with, try to

get it done, adjusted and verified. If there is a problem, we've

ended up staying. There's the one bond where we had to stay.

Actually, we stayed the next shift, all shift. We took the bond

out.

But, as far as module installation: install, adjust,

verify. Now I wasn't aware of any three-point procedure, but I've

definitely seen two-point verification. And whatever is enforced

as far as the PMI, that's what I referenced.

As far as this bond installation project, in hindsight

there are things I think would be done different -- definitely

would be done different if it starts up again. But like I said,

there's a time and place for that, too.

Q. Well, if you'd like to share, we'd be --

A. Well, my recommendations would be if anytime you have an

issue with power level adjustment, you get an engineer on the


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spot. Because the circuit was designed at a certain power. Just

because you put a new bond in, to make work you're kicking the

power up. If we have that issue, they should be called.

The whole installation process should be given a

priority, whereas, right now we have to fight to get on the

tracks. Another thing I was trying to do was make the bond

installation a project instead of a ongoing task where I have to

submit general orders by day.

I was either going to try to get it single tracking for

a major project so we can either get early out or somehow get

addressed to where we can get out on the tracks a little bit after

12:30, instead of 2:00, 2:30 in the morning because now you tasked

with getting the equipment in. You might be pressed to get it in

the time frame you have to get it in. You don't take shortcuts,

but you have to get it in and verified. And then you're going to

start running into railroad operating time.

The other thing I would have to stress to the

technicians, if you have a problem with a track circuit or

anything else, my understanding an ATC, if you got a problem, put

it in -- certification, shut it down. I've done it with switches

where you just call out of service. And I don't know whether

that's taught to all of ATC. That would more so be a training

phase to where the equipment you fix, maintains safe movements of

trains. If you've got a problem with it, shut it down and deal

with the consequences later. The mentality now is move trains.


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There's a very short window midnight shift, whether it's bonds or

anything else, as far as getting them to -- getting things fixed.

Q. I'm curious, if you'd like to share, what, if you know,

what's the hold up between 12:30 and 2:30 to get out on the track?

A. There have been nights were you got prime movers. We've

had the Sperry rail car. After they had the derails, they would

have Sperry rail car. If you're on the tracks, you got to get out

of his way. And so that limits -- you can't take a track circuit

down in front of him.

So he's come through at times up until 2:15, 2:30 at --

which at that point you might as well say we finished for the

night. Sometimes you can get out there between 2:30 and 4 and do,

like I say, short installation. I've had them do that most of the

times. But if we feel that we can get a complete installation, we

do it.

The other issues, like I say, the month of late April,

May, many thunderstorms, much rain. I won't work in a

thunderstorm and I don't expect the crew to. In heavy rain, we

don't work in heavy rain. And any other issues -- there was one

instance where we had a ball game and Central ran trains late and

they didn't get out on -- they called people at 3:12. I said,

what's the point, you're going to have to get off the tracks at

4:00. So that night, pretty much everybody just cancelled. There

have been nights where US&S is installing modules, they say they

need support for interlocking, so I have to double up my support.


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I cancel bond installation and they cancel me because of rain or

whatever other incidents.

But bottom line, we have 12 people doing 4 projects. If

everyone is working fine, I'll have about five people installing

Wee-Z bonds, either AA or A in the room doing adjustments.

Sometimes I'll have another person in the room with her.

Sometimes, depending on the workload, what we're trying to get

done, we'll have one in the room, four on the wayside. But always

install, adjust, verify. That is, to me, is one of the ATC

cardinal rules. You put it in the ground, you test it and verify.

And they understand that from me and they understand it as a

technician.

Q. Very good. Well, on behalf of the NTSB, I'd like to

thank you for coming in, taking the time and talking to us. And

you have my business card if you think of anything else that might

help us, please give me a call.

A. Okay. I don't have your business card.

Q. Oh, I thought -- I'm sorry. I thought I gave you one.

A. No.

MR. PAYAN: Off the record at 2:00. Thank you.

MR. LUCAS: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

(Whereupon, at 1:47 p.m., the interview in the above-

entitled matter was concluded.)


CERTIFICATE

This is to certify that the attached proceeding before the

NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD IN THE MATTER OF: Collision of Two Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority Trains on the Red Line Near Takoma Park, Maryland June 22, 2009 Interview of Christopher Lucas DOCKET NUMBER: DCA-09-MR-007 PLACE: Washington, D.C. DATE: June 27, 2009 was held according to the record, and that this is the original,

complete, true and accurate transcript which has been compared to

the recording accomplished at the hearing.

__________________________ Kay Maurer Transcriber


Documents

Signals & Train Control Group Attachment 13 · 490 L'Enfant Plaza East, Southwest . Washington, D.C. 20594 ... also a station processor project. ... anything more about the 304 incident