SCOTUS transcript 140121

8/13/2019 SCOTUS transcript 140121

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Official - Subject to Review

1 I N THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNI TED STATES

2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

3 PAMELA HARRI S, ET AL. , :

4 Pet i t i oner s :

5 v. : No. 11- 681

6 PAT QUI NN, GOVERNOR OF :

7 I LLI NOI S, ET AL. :

8 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

9 Washi ngt on, D. C.

10 Tuesday, J anuar y 21, 2014

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12 The above- ent i t l ed mat t er came on f or or al

13 argument bef ore the Supr eme Cour t of t he Uni t ed St ates

14 at 10: 03 a. m.

15 APPEARANCES:

16 WI LLI AM L. MESSENGER, ESQ. , Spr i ngf i el d, Vi r gi ni a; on

17 behal f of Pet i t i oner s.

18 PAUL M. SMI TH, ESQ. , Washi ngt on, D. C. ; on behal f of

19 Respondent s.

20 DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , ESQ. , Sol i ci t or Gener al ,

21 Depar t ment of J ust i ce, Washi ngt on, D. C. ; f or Uni t ed

22 St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, suppor t i ng Respondent s.

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Alderson Reporting Company



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C O N T E N T S ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE WI LLI AM L. MESSENGER, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner s 3 ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAUL M. SMI TH, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Respondent s 26 ORAL ARGUMENT DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R.

For Uni t ed St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, 46 support i ng t he Respondent s

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF WI LLI AM L. MESSENGER, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner s 56





3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ( 10: 03 a. m. ) 3 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: We' l l hear ar gument 4 f i r st t hi s mor ni ng i n Case 11- 681, Har r i s v. Qui nn. 5 Mr . Messenger . 6 ORAL ARGUMENT OF WI LLI AM L. MESSENGER 7 ON BEHALF OF THE PETI TI ONERS 8 MR. MESSENGER: Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and may 9 i t pl ease t he Cour t :

10 I l l i noi s i s f or ci ng Susan Wat t s and 11 t housands of other home car e pr ovi ders t o pay compul sor y 12 f ees t o t he SEI U t o pet i t i on t he St at e about i t s 13 Medi cai d pr ogr am t hat pays f or t hei r ser vi ces t o per sons 14 wi t h di sabi l i t i es. I n Mr s. Wat t s' case, her daught er 15 Li bby. Thi s vi ol at es t he Fi r st Amendment because t he 16 pur pose of t hi s mandat or y associ at i on i s i nher ent l y 17 expr essi ve. Pet i t i on t he gover nment f or a r edr ess of 18 gr i evances, ot her wi se, l obby. And al so because t hi s 19 pr ogr am -

20 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: I t hought i t was t o 21 negot i at e - - or i t ' s t ypi cal l y negot i at ed i n col l ect i ve 22 bar gai ni ng; t hat i s, wages, i s that not so? Wages and 23 benef i t s? 24 MR. MESSENGER: The subj ect s of bargai ni ng 25 her e ar e t he rei mbur sement r at es gi ven t o t he pr ovi der s




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1 and the St at e now of f ers or pays money t o t he SEI U f or a 2 heal t h benef i t . But t hat i s pet i t i oni ng t he gover nment 3 wi t h r egar d t o t hose negot i at i ons. 4 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But how does i t di f f er 5 f r om t he t ypi cal bar gai ni ng t hat a uni on does? I t asks 6 f or a wage r at e and i t asks f or var i ous benef i t s. So 7 ar e you sayi ng t hat when i t ' s a publ i c - - i n t he publ i c 8 sect or , i t get s conver t ed i nt o somet hi ng el se? 9 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. When - - i n t he publ i c

10 sector when a gr oup i s pet i t i oni ng t he gover nment f or 11 money, t hat i s, pet i t i oni ng t he gover nment over a publ i c 12 pr ogr am, her e f r om a Medi cai d pr ogr am. I t woul d be ver y 13 l i t t l e di f f er ent t han i f t he Amer i can Medi cal 14 Associ at i on was aski ng f or hi gher Medi cai d r at es f or 15 doct or s or f or nur ses. 16 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I s your ar gument 17 dependent on t hi s bei ng sor t of a dual empl oyee 18 si t uat i on, t hat i t ' s r ei mbur sement as opposed t o 19 pol i cemen, f i r e - - pol i ce peopl e, f i r e peopl e, t eacher s, 20 ot her publ i c - - ot her publ i c empl oyees who ar e di r ect l y 21 empl oyed by t he State? 22 MR. MESSENGER: That i s our posi t i on f or why 23 Abood i s di st i ngui shabl e on t hat poi nt , i s t hat her e t he 24 St ate i s not t he common l aw empl oyer or t he sol e 25 empl oyer of t hese pr ovi der s. I t si mpl y pays t hem f or





5 1 t hei r ser vi ces, much l i ke a heal t h i nsur er pays f or t he 2 ser vi ces of medi cal pr of essi onal s. 3 J USTI CE KAGAN: But your argument , of 4 cour se, i sn' t l i mi t ed t o t hat . I t goes beyond t hat 5 si t uat i on? 6 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. And t hat t he - - t he 7 act ual bar gai ni ng, even on behal f of t r ue empl oyees, i s 8 al so pet i t i oni ng and pol i t i cal i n nat ur e, and f or t hat 9 r eason Abood shoul d be over r ul ed.

10 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I s t her e any l i kel i hood 11 t hat t he uni on t hat r epr esent s t hese, what I cal l t hem 12 heal t hcar e wor ker s, heal t h pr ovi der s, car e pr ovi der s, i s 13 t her e any l i kel i hood t hat t hey woul d t r y to bar gai n f or 14 benef i t s f or t hese - - t hese wor ker s? 15 MR. MESSENGER: Woul d t he uni on at t empt t o? 16 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Yes, yes. I s t her e any 17 l i kel i hood? Do we know anyt hi ng about what t he 18 l i kel i hood woul d be f or cer t ai n subj ect s t o be br ought 19 up i n t he bar gai ni ng wi t h t he St at e? 20 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , one t hi ng t hat has 21 happened, t hi s i s i n t he col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng 22 agr eement , i s t he St at e has agr eed t o gi ve cer t ai n 23 amount s of money t o an SEI U heal t hcar e f und t o of f er 24 access t o heal t h benef i t s f or t hose pr ovi der s. So t he 25 St at e i s f undi ng t he SEI U' s heal t h benef i t pr ogr am t o




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1 t hat ext ent . 2 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Di d t hey have t hat 3 bef or e the uni on? 4 MR. MESSENGER: No. 5 J USTI CE SCALI A: Suppose you have a 6 pol i ceman who - - who i s di ssat i sf i ed wi t h hi s wages. So 7 he makes an appoi nt ment wi t h t he commi ssi oner , pol i ce 8 commi ss i oner , and he goes i n and gr ouses about hi s 9 wages. He does thi s, you know, 10 or 11 t i mes. And t he

10 commi ssi oner f i nal l y i s f ed up and t el l s hi s secret ar y, 11 I don' t - - I don' t want t o see t hi s man agai n. Has he 12 vi ol at ed t he Const i t ut i on? 13 MR. MESSENGER: No. 14 J USTI CE SCALI A: He i s prevent ed a pet i t i on 15 f or a r edr ess of gr i evances? 16 MR. MESSENGER: No, because i n t hat - - wi t h 17 an i ndi vi dual speaki ng, i t ' s, si r , a mat t er of pr i vat e 18 or i nt er nal pr opr i et ar y mat t er t hat under t hi s Cour t ' s 19 pr ecedence don' t r i se t o a mat t er of publ i c concer n. 20 However , i f you had an or gani zat i on pet i t i oni ng a - - a 21 pol i ce di st r i ct f or wages across t he boar d f or pol i ce 22 of f i cer s, t hen t hat i s a mat t er of publ i c concer n and 23 woul d vi ol at e t he Fi r st -

24 J USTI CE SCALI A: I r eal l y don' t under st and 25 t hat . When - - when you - - so what i f i t ' s 10 pol i cemen




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1 who do t hi s? I t ' s st i l l not a mat t er of publ i c concer n? 2 Does i t have t o be t he whol e pol i ce f or ce? 3 MR. MESSENGER: The l i ne woul d be once you 4 have t he col l ect i ve, i t woul d be st ar t t o become a 5 mat t er of publ i c concer n. I t ' d be t he publ i c 6 concer n t est . 7 J USTI CE SCALI A: I t seems t o me i t ' s al ways 8 a mat t er of publ i c concer n, whet her you' r e goi ng t o 9 r ai se t he sal ar i es of pol i cemen, whet her i t ' s an

10 i ndi vi dual pol i ceman aski ng f or t hat or - - or a - - a 11 combi nat i on of pol i cemen or a uni on. I t ' s a al ways a 12 mat t er of publ i c concer n, i sn' t i t ? 13 MR. MESSENGER: And i f i t i s, t hen I submi t 14 t hat i t ' s unconst i t ut i onal f or -

15 J USTI CE SCALI A: Okay. To not - - not gi ve 16 t hi s guy an appoi nt ment f or t he 12t h t i me. 17 MR. MESSENGER: No. The pol i ce j ust -

18 chi ef can cer t ai nl y shut hi s door , but i t woul d be 19 unconst i t ut i onal as t o f or ce -

20 J USTI CE SCALI A: Wel l , how can he shut hi s 21 door i f he has a r i ght t o pet i t i on, a const i t ut i onal 22 r i ght t o pet i t i on f or t he r edr ess of gr i evances? Hi s 23 gr i evance i s he' s not bei ng pai d enough. 24 MR. MESSENGER: But i n t hat case under our 25 publ i c concer n t est , whi ch goes wi t hi n t he Pi cker i ng




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1 l i ne, t hat t hat i ndi vi dual gr i evance woul d not r i se t o a 2 Fi r st Amendment pet i t i on. 3 J USTI CE SCALI A: But i t ' s t he same gr i evance 4 i f t he uni on had pr esent ed i t . The - - t he gr i evance i s 5 t he sal ar i es f or pol i cemen ar e not hi gh enough. 6 MR. MESSENGER: But t he -

7 J USTI CE SCALI A: He' s not aski ng f or j ust 8 hi s sal ar y t o be r ai sed. He want s sal ar i es of al l -

9 al l t he cops t o be r ai sed. 10 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , t wo poi nt s. The f i r st 11 i s t he scal e i s what di f f er ent i at es. So her e you have a 12 uni on pet i t i oni ng a St at e f or Medi cai d r at es t hat ar e 13 pai d f or 20, 000- some car e pr ovi der s. And so t he scal e 14 of i t i s what makes i t a mat t er of publ i c concer n or a 15 mat t er of l obby as opposed t o -

16 J USTI CE KAGAN: But what - - what you' r e 17 obj ect i ng t o, t o t he ext ent t hat you' r e not obj ect i ng t o 18 t he ent i r e syst em of col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng, you' r e 19 obj ect i ng - - you' r e sayi ng an i ndi vi dual empl oyee can 20 say I don' t f eel l i ke suppor t i ng a uni on t hat makes a 21 cert ai n ki nd of argument about wages or about benef i t s. 22 So, j ust t o car r y on wi t h J ust i ce Scal i a' s 23 exampl e, t he subj ect mat t er i s t he exact same i n t he t wo 24 cont exts, whet her i t ' s an i ndi vi dual empl oyee or whet her 25 i t ' s a uni on, and i n bot h cont ext s, t he - - t he ul t i mat e




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1 sanct i on i s t he same, r i ght ? Somebody gr ouses about hi s 2 pay t oo much, he coul d get f i r ed. Somebody r ef uses t o 3 suppor t a uni on t hat i s negot i at i ng about pay, he can 4 l ose hi s j ob. So i t ' s - - i t ' s real l y i dent i cal across 5 t he two si t uat i ons. 6 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , I ' d say -

7 J USTI CE KAGAN: Same subj ect mat t er , same 8 sanct i on. What ' s t he di f f er ence? 9 MR. MESSENGER: There' s two di f f erences.

10 One, agai n, i s t he scal e. When you' r e t al ki ng about a 11 uni on col l ect i vel y pet i t i oni ng a school di st r i ct or i n 12 t he St at es -

13 J USTI CE KAGAN: But you' r e not obj ect i ng, I 14 t hi nk, t o t he uni on as a whol e. What you' r e obj ect i ng 15 t o i s an i ndi vi dual empl oyee havi ng t o suppor t t hat 16 act i vi t y. The scal e i s no di f f er ent . I t ' s an 17 i ndi vi dual empl oyee. 18 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, i t ' s an i ndi vi dual 19 empl oyee bei ng f or ced t o suppor t t hat expr essi ve 20 act i vi t y. So t he quest i on becomes: What expr essi ve 21 act i vi t y ar e t hey bei ng f or ced t o suppor t ? And when 22 you' r e speaki ng of changi ng an ent i r e government 23 pr ogr am, f or exampl e, Medi cai d r at es acr oss t he boar d, 24 t hat i s a mat t er of publ i c concer n. That i s a mat t er of 25 l obbyi ng or pol i t i cal - -





10 1 J USTI CE KAGAN: But t hat ' s exact l y what t he 2 i ndi vi dual empl oyee i n J ust i ce Scal i a' s hypot het i cal i s 3 argui ng f or . He want s wage r ates t o be changed acr oss 4 t he boar d. He knows t hey' r e not goi ng t o be changed 5 j ust f or hi m. He want s hi gher wage r at es. 6 MR. MESSENGER: But , agai n, under t hi s 7 Cour t ' s pr i vat e - - under t he publ i c concer n t est , an 8 i ndi vi dual si mpl y speaki ng t o t hat usual l y does not r i se 9 t o a mat t er of publ i c concer n.

10 J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , Mr . Messenger , I ' m 11 conf used by t hi s whol e l i ne of ar gument at i on. I di dn' t 12 t hi nk t her e was any i ssue i n t hi s case about t he r i ght 13 of t he pl ai nt i f f s or any of t he ot her af f ect ed wor ker s 14 t o say what ever t hey want on t hei r own. That - - t hey' r e 15 not pr ohi bi t ed f r om doi ng t hat , ar e t hey? 16 MR. MESSENGER: No, t hey' r e not . 17 J USTI CE ALI TO: So t her e i sn' t any i ssue 18 about t hat i n t he case. I t hought t he i ssue - - and t hey 19 can t r y t o - - t o meet wi t h anybody t hey want as many 20 t i mes as t hey want . I suppose t hat - - t hat per son has a 21 per f ect r i ght t o say: Enough i s enough; I don' t want t o 22 meet wi t h you f or t he f i f t h or f or t he f i r st t i me. 23 I t hought t he i ssue was whet her t hey coul d 24 be requi r ed t o pay f or somebody el se t o go and speak and 25 possi bl y say thi ngs t hat t hey di sagr ee wi t h.





11 1 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, exact l y, t hat t hey are 2 bei ng f or ced t o suppor t an or gani zat i on, her e the SEI U, 3 t o speak or pet i t i on t he St at e over i t s Medi cai d r at es. 4 So t he di sti nct i on i s -

5 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So l et ' s break t hi s 6 down. You' r e not ar gui ng t hat t her e' s somet hi ng wr ong 7 wi t h a uni on qua uni on. I s t her e anythi ng wr ong wi t h 8 t he St at e sayi ng, we' r e not goi ng t o negot i at e wi t h any 9 empl oyee who' s not a member of t he uni on?

10 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, under - - I ' m sor r y. 11 Ther e i s - - Your Honor , t her e i s not a probl em wi t h t hat 12 because my whol e -

13 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I s t her e a probl em f or 14 t he St at e t o say - - t he uni on, t o or gani ze, has a 15 cer t ai n amount of cost s. So put t i ng asi de f ai r 16 r epr esent at i on l aws, coul d t he St at e say, t hi s i s what 17 we' r e goi ng t o pay pol i ce of f i cer s, 100 dol l ar s, but 18 we' r e goi ng t o pay uni on member s 110 to rei mbur se t hem 19 f or t he cost of negot i at i on. Woul d t hat be okay? 20 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. Under Kni ght t he Stat e 21 can choose who i t bar gai ns wi t h and i f i t chooses t o set 22 di f f er ent r at es f or uni on and - - uni on and nonuni on, i t 23 coul d, as you sai d, not wi t hst andi ng f ai r - - or dut y of 24 f ai r r epr esent at i on. 25 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So t her e' s no probl em





12 1 her e wi t h t he r epr esent at i on. Your pr obl em i s wi t h t he 2 f ai r shar e? 3 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, f or ci ng t he i ndi vi dual s 4 t o suppor t t he uni on f or t he pur pose of pet i t i oni ng t he 5 St ate over here t he Medi cai d r ates f or homecar e. 6 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Ar e t here any - - you 7 suggest , i n r esponse to my col l eague' s quest i on, t hat 8 t hey coul d - - t he St at e coul d pay heal t h car e pr ovi der s 9 di f f er ent rat es. Ar e t her e any l i mi t at i ons? We' r e

10 t al ki ng about Medi cai d r ei mbur se. Ar e t her e any 11 l i mi t at i ons t hat woul d pr event di f f er ent i al r at es of 12 pay, r ei mbur sement , under Medi cai d f or t he same 13 ser vi ces? 14 MR. MESSENGER: Ther e may be st at utory. I 15 know t hat most Medi cai d pr ogr ams ar e - - acr oss t he boar d 16 set r at es. But al so, const i t ut i onal l y, i f t her e was a 17 di f f er ent i al act or degr ee, i t coul d be consi der ed a 18 penal t y f or t he i ndi vi dual exer ci si ng t hei r r i ght s. But 19 as f ar as I know, most Medi cai d pr ogr ams, i n par t i cul ar 20 t he one her e, i t ' s al ways been a f i xed r at e est abl i shed 21 across t he boar d. 22 J USTI CE SCALI A: Mr . Messenger , j ust t o 23 cl ar i f y what was t he pur pose of my ear l i er l i ne of 24 quest i oni ng, i t was si mpl y t o show t hat i f you have a 25 case i t doesn' t r est on t he r i ght t o pet i t i on t he




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1 gover nment f or r edr ess of gr i evances. I t - - i t r est s on 2 t he Fi r st Amendment . You - - you say t hat t her e i s 3 bei ng - - your - - your peopl e ar e bei ng r equi r ed t o 4 suppor t speech t hat t hey don' t agr ee wi t h. 5 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, Your Honor . 6 J USTI CE SCALI A: Now, t hat i s, you know, 7 t hat i s an ar guabl e posi t i on, but I don' t - - I don' t 8 t hi nk i t ' s even ar guabl e t hat t he r i ght t o pet i t i on t he 9 gover nment f or r edr ess of gr i evances i s - - i s i nvol ved

10 here. 11 MR. MESSENGER: I t ' s the expr essi on t hey' r e 12 bei ng f or ced t o suppor t , Your Honor . So t he vi ol at i on, 13 as you say, i s t hey' r e bei ng f or ced t o suppor t 14 expr essi ve act i vi t y and t hat expr essi ve act i vi t y -

15 J USTI CE SCALI A: That ' s a Fi r st Amendment 16 vi ol at i on, not a vi ol at i on - - not a deni al of t he r i ght 17 t o pet i t i on t he gover nment . 18 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, Your Honor . They' r e 19 not bei ng deni ed t he r i ght t o pet i t i on i n t he sense t hat 20 t he St at e i s sayi ng t hey cannot pet i t i on. I nst ead, 21 t hey' r e bei ng f or ced t o suppor t pet i t i oni ng. 22 J USTI CE KAGAN: Mr . Messenger , I ' m not sure 23 t hat J ust i ce Scal i a' s answer sat i sf i es hi s own quest i on. 24 ( Laught er . ) 25 J USTI CE SCALI A: What - - what was t he




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1 quest i on? 2 ( Laught er . ) 3 J USTI CE KAGAN: Because her e' s t he t hi ng: 4 That i n t he wor kpl ace we' ve gi ven t he gover nment a ver y 5 wi de degr ee of l at i t ude and t her e' s much t hat t he 6 gover nment can do. I t can f i r e peopl e. I t can demot e 7 peopl e f or t hi ngs t hat t hey say i n t he wor kpl ace, not 8 f or t hi ngs t hat t hey say as a ci t i zen, but f or t hi ngs 9 t hat t hey say i n t he wor kpl ace. That ' s t he f undament al

10 l esson of Garcet t i and of many, many ot hers of our 11 cases. 12 So you' r e sayi ng, wel l , t he gover nment can 13 puni sh somebody f or sayi ng somet hi ng, but t he government 14 i n t he exact same posi t i on cannot compel somebody t o say 15 somethi ng t hey di sagr ee wi t h. And I want t o know what ' s 16 t he basi s f or t hat di st i nct i on, whi ch i t seems t o me i s 17 j ust as har d as - - as i f you wer e answer i ng under t he 18 pet i t i on cl ause. 19 J USTI CE SCALI A: I want t o hear t he answer , 20 t oo, because, cont r ar y t o what J ust i ce Kagan suggest s, 21 I - - I di dn' t say your Fi r st Amendment ar gument was 22 val i d. 23 ( Laught er . ) 24 J USTI CE KAGAN: Good, okay. 25 J USTI CE SCALI A: I sai d at l east i t was a




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1 comprehensi bl e ar gument . 2 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: J ump i n whenever 3 you' d l i ke. 4 ( Laught er . ) 5 MR. MESSENGER: The way i n whi ch homecar e 6 pr ovi der s pet i t i on t he St at e, I submi t , i s not an 7 i nt er nal pr opr i et ar y mat t er t hat t he gover nment has f r ee 8 r ei n t o manage. And so t he di st i nct i on bet ween 9 gover nment act i ng as propr i et or , as you say, t he

10 government can t el l an empl oyee on work t i me that you 11 can' t engage i n cer t ai n speech i f i t i nt er f er es wi t h t he 12 wor kpl ace. But t he way i n whi ch an i ndi vi dual 13 associ at es wi t h t o l obby or pet i t i on t he St at e i s not an 14 i nt er nal pr opr i et ar y mat t er . So f or exampl e, her e t he 15 way i n whi ch Susan Wat t s and ot her homecare pr ovi der s 16 pet i t i on t he St at e i s not i nt er nal wor kpl ace speech. 17 J USTI CE SCALI A: Why i sn' t i t ? I mean, i t 18 i s f or pr i vat e empl oyer s. Ther e ar e some pr i vat e 19 empl oyer s who t hi nk they' r e bet t er of f wi t h a cl osed 20 shop and t hey j ust want t o deal wi t h one uni on and -

21 and t hey requi r e al l t he peopl e t hat t hey hi r e t o become 22 a member of t hi s uni on and t o pay uni on dues f or 23 r epr esent at i onal pur poses. They do t hi s as pr i vat e 24 empl oyer s because t hey thi nk i t i s i n t hei r i nt er est as 25 an empl oyer . Why can' t t he gover nment have t he same





16 1 i nt er est ? 2 MR. MESSENGER: Because when t he gover nment 3 i s i nvol ved t he Fi r st Amendment i nt er est s ar e much 4 hei ght ened because you' r e deal i ng wi t h at t empt i ng t o 5 i nf l uence gover nment pol i cy. 6 J USTI CE SCALI A: Al l r i ght . But - - but 7 don' t t el l me t hat t her e' s no empl oyer i nt er est . Ther e 8 i s an empl oyer i nt er est . You' r e j ust sayi ng i t i s 9 not - - i t i s not consi der abl e enough, r i ght ?

10 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, i t ' s not consi derabl e 11 enough. Her e t he St at e l acks -

12 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: But what st ops t he 13 non - - t he peopl e who oppose the uni on pol i cy f r om 14 sendi ng a l et t er , aski ng a meet i ng, expr essi ng t hei r 15 di sappr oval i n any f orum t hey want and i n any way t hey 16 want t o what ever pol i cy a uni on i s advocat i ng? I s t her e 17 anyt hi ng t hat st ops t hem f r om doi ng t hat ? 18 MR. MESSENGER: No, t here i sn' t , Your Honor . 19 However , I submi t t hat i t ' s not -

20 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So wher e' s t he Fi r st 21 Amendment abr i dgement ? They can do what ever t hey want . 22 They can speak however t hey want i n suppor t of or i n 23 opposi t i on t o absol ut el y anyt hi ng t he uni on i s doi ng. 24 MR. MESSENGER: I t ' s - - Your Honor , i t ' s t he 25 compel l ed speech, and t he f act t hat t he i ndi vi dual s have




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1 ot her Fi r st Amendment r i ght s i s not excul pat or y. So 2 i t ' s t he - - i t ' s t he compul si on t o suppor t t he SEI U' s 3 posi t i ons i n pet i t i oni ng t he St at e. That i s t he Fi r st 4 Amendment vi ol at i on. And t he f act t hat -

5 J USTI CE SCALI A: I suppose - - I suppose t he 6 f act t hat you' r e ent i t l ed t o speak agai nst abor t i on 7 woul d not j ust i f y the gover nment i n r equi r i ng you t o 8 gi ve money t o Pl anned Par ent hood? 9 MR. MESSENGER: Exact l y, Your Honor .

10 J USTI CE SCALI A: That ' s t he ar gument you' r e 11 maki ng. 12 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. And act ual l y, I submi t 13 t hat t he f act t hat pr ovi der s do r emai n f r ee t o pet i t i on 14 t he St at e onl y shows t hat t he so- cal l ed " l abor peace" 15 i nt er est hasn' t been done her e by I l l i noi s, because t he 16 i nt er est t her e i s t o avoi d compet i ng demands f r om 17 var i ous pr ovi der s. Her e, t he f act t hat each pr ovi der 18 does, i n f act , r emai n f r ee t o pet i t i on t he St at e t hr ough 19 or gani zat i ons ot her t han t he SEI U shows t hat t he St at e 20 has not achi eved any sor t of l abor peace, as t he St at e 21 coul d pot ent i al l y achi eve wi t hi n i t s wor kpl ace by -

22 J USTI CE KAGAN: Mr . Messenger -

23 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , but I mean, I 24 suppose ther e coul d be l abor peace i f t he Respondent s 25 wer e t o pr evai l . I mean, t hat - - t hat assumes t hat your




18


1 t heor y of t he case i s goi ng - - i s goi ng t o pr evai l . 2 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , no. Even i f t he 3 scheme her e -

4 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I mean, doesn' t t he -

5 i sn' t t her e l abor peace - - l et ' s assume t hat ' s a val i d 6 i nt er est - - i sn' t t her e l abor peace i f one uni on 7 r epr esent s t hese heal t h care pr ovi ders and makes and 8 negot i at es a cont r act wi t h t he gover nment ? 9 MR. MESSENGER: No, I submi t t hat t he l abor

10 peace i nt er est i sn' t val i d her e because i n deal i ng wi t h 11 t he Medi cai d pr ogr am, t he St at e doesn' t have an i nt er est 12 i n avoi di ng compet i ng demands f r om r i val gr oups 13 r egar di ng i t s pol i ci es on t hat . That i s, democrat i c -

14 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , why doesn' t i t ? 15 I t - - i t get s t he demand f r om t he uni on, i t r ecogni zes 16 i t ' s r easonabl e; t hat ' s t he pol i cy and t hen i t can move 17 f or war d wi t h t he pol i cy. 18 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , t he St at e coul d 19 uni l at er al l y do t hat , wi t hout bar gai ni ng wi t h t he uni on. 20 J USTI CE ALI TO: Mr . Messenger , do you t hi nk 21 t he i ssue of excl usi ve r epr esent at i on i s i next r i cabl y 22 t i ed t o the i ssue of t he assessment of an agency f ee? 23 Can' t you have t he f or mer wi t hout t he l at t er ? 24 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, you can. At l east t wo 25 ways. The f i r st of whi ch i s that Knox, of cour se, l ays




19


1 out a t wo- par t t est . The second par t t est - - even i f 2 t he f i r st i s sat i sf i ed, t hat t he mandat or y associ at i on, 3 her e excl usi ve r epr esent at i on, i s j ust i f i ed by 4 compel l i ng i nt er est , you st i l l go t o t he second t est of 5 whet her or not f ees are a necessar y i nci dent t o t hat 6 r epr esent at i on, and I submi t t hat I l l i noi s does not 7 sat i sf y t hat t est . 8 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But you' r e not - - you' r e 9 not chal l engi ng - - or i t ' s conf usi ng whet her you ar e or

10 not - - t he ver y i dea of excl usi ve r epr esent at i on by a 11 uni on. Ar e you sayi ng t hat i n t he publ i c sect or , t her e 12 cannot be excl usi ve - - an excl usi ve bar gai ni ng agent ? 13 MR. MESSENGER: I t ' s not di r ect l y chal l enged 14 i n t hi s case, but i t becomes r el evant under t he f i r st 15 Knox t est , whi ch asks whether t he mandat ory associ at i on 16 bei ng suppor t ed by the compul sor y f ees i s j ust i f i ed by a 17 compel l i ng St at e i nt er est . 18 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: I s t he mandat or y - - l et ' s 19 t ake out , as J ust i ce Al i t o suggest ed, t ake out t he 20 agency f ee or f ai r - shar e f ee or what ever i t i s. But 21 t her e i s an excl usi ve bar gai ni ng agent . Wor ker s, your 22 cl i ent s, say we don' t want t o be r epr esent ed by that 23 uni on. The uni on i s aut hor i zed t o r epr esent ever ybody 24 i n t he workpl ace and has t o r epr esent even nonmember s as 25 wel l wi t hout any di scr i mi nat i on. And - - and ar e you




20


1 t aki ng t he posi t i on t hat t her e cannot be an excl usi ve 2 bar gai ni ng agent i f t her e ar e any di ssent er s who don' t 3 want t o be repr esent ed by a uni on? 4 MR. MESSENGER: Not i n t hi s case, Your 5 Honor . Thi s case does not pr esent t he quest i on of 6 whet her excl usi ve r epr esent at i on al one woul d const i t ut e 7 a Fi r st Amendment i nj ur y, because t he compl ai nt her e i s 8 f ocused t owar ds t he compul sory f ees. So t hat par t i cul ar 9 i ssue i s not her e.

10 J USTI CE KAGAN: So, Mr . Messenger , even on 11 t he compul sory f ees, I mean, what st r i kes me i s t hat 12 t hi s i s - - I ' m j ust goi ng t o use t he wor d her e, i t i s a 13 r adi cal ar gument . I t woul d r adi cal l y r est r uct ur e t he 14 way wor kpl aces acr oss t hi s count r y ar e - - ar e r un. 15 And l et me j ust put i t t o you t hi s way and 16 ask i f you agr ee wi t h t hi s - - wi t h t hi s st at ement . 17 Si nce 1948, si nce t he Taf t - Har t l ey Act , t her e has been a 18 debat e i n ever y St at e acr oss t hi s count r y about whet her 19 t o be a r i ght - t o- wor k St at e and peopl e have di sagr eed. 20 Some St at es say yes, some St at es say no. I t r ai ses 21 consi derabl e heat and passi on and t ensi on, as we 22 r ecent l y saw i n Wi sconsi n. And - - but , you know, t hese 23 ar e publ i c pol i cy choi ces t hat St at es make. 24 And i s i t f ai r t o say t hat what you' r e 25 suggest i ng her e, your ar gument , i s essent i al l y to say





21 1 t hat f or 65 years, peopl e have been debat i ng t he wr ong 2 quest i on when t hey' ve been debat i ng t hat , because, i n 3 f act , a r i ght - t o- wor k l aw i s const i t ut i onal l y compel l ed? 4 MR. MESSENGER: I n t he publ i c sect or, yes, 5 t hat i t i s i n f act - - wel l , t he f i r s t publ i c sect or 6 l abor l aw was act ual l y 1959 i n Wi sconsi n, so i t ' s 7 r el at i vel y r ecent when you' r e i nvol ved wi t h gover nment . 8 Yes, our posi t i on i s, i s t hat i n t he publ i c sect or when 9 gover nment i s i nvol ved compul sory f ees are i l l egal under

10 t he Fi r st Amendment . 11 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Suppose t he Cour t wer e t o 12 say t hat on t he i ssue of sal ar i es t her e i s no Fi r st 13 Amendment vi ol at i on, t hat - - t hat Abood shoul d r emai n 14 appl i cabl e t o publ i c empl oyee uni ons. Ar e t her e ot her 15 i ssues t hat publ i c empl oyee uni ons necessar i l y r ai se i n 16 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng t hat r ai se ot her concer ns about 17 gover nment al pol i ci es t hat uni on members mi ght di sagr ee 18 wi t h? 19 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, Your Honor . Speaki ng 20 of t r ue empl oyees, we' r e not speaki ng of Medi cai d 21 pr ovi der s, but speaki ng of t r ue empl oyees, t hi s was 22 di scussed i n Abood wi t h r espect t o publ i c school 23 t eacher s and al l t he di f f er ent aspect s t hat t he uni on 24 pet i t i ons over t hat has t o do wi t h cl ass si zes, hour s 25 wor ked. Benef i t s ar e a huge i ssue, of cour se, i n t er ms




22


1 of f i nanci al l y f or many school di st r i cts, heal t h 2 benef i t s. So t her e ar e many i ssues of t he way t he 3 school di st r i ct actual l y oper at es. 4 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: How about her e f or your 5 empl oyees? They negot i ate heal t h i nsurance. Do t hey -

6 t hey don' t negot i at e t er mi nat i on because t hat ' s up t o 7 t he i ndi vi dual -

8 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. 9 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - par t i es. So t her e' s

10 no gr i evance commi t t ee. Do t hey negot i ate t he t asks 11 t hat wi l l be r ei mbur sed? 12 MR. MESSENGER: No. The t asks t hat t he 13 St at e wi l l r ei mbur se ar e set i n a ser vi ce pl an. That ' s 14 not a mandat ory -

15 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Al l r i ght . So you' r e 16 bei ng asked t o have a f ai r shar e of how much you' r e 17 get t i ng f r om t he St at e f or your ser vi ces and heal t h 18 i nsur ance. What el se i s negot i at ed t hat you' r e bei ng 19 asked t o pay f or ? 20 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , what - - as f ar as what 21 t hey' r e bei ng f or ced t o suppor t i s t he r ei mbur sement 22 r at e. The St at e i s gi vi ng money t o an SEI U heal t hcar e 23 f und, whi ch many pr ovi der s may or may not use. The 24 St ate i s gi vi ng money t o an SEI U member t r ai ni ng f und t o 25 pr ovi de vol unt ar y t r ai ni ng t o pr ovi der s, and al so t o




23


1 conduct an or i ent at i on t hat new pr ovi der s wi l l be f or ced 2 t o suppor t . 3 J USTI CE SCALI A: Those t hi ngs you can ar gue 4 ar e not par t of t he r epr esent at i on f or whi ch t hey shoul d 5 be charged and they shoul d get t hei r money back f or 6 t hose t hi ngs i f t hey' r e actual l y not - - not get t i ng any 7 benef i t f r om t hem. 8 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , I woul d submi t t hat 9 t hey shoul dn' t be f or ced t o pay f or any of t hi s

10 pet i t i oni ng r egar di ng how t he St at e chooses t o r un t hi s 11 Medi cai d progr am. 12 J USTI CE SCALI A: No, but t hey' r e - - I mean, 13 what our cases say i s you - - you can be compel l ed not t o 14 be a f r ee r i der , t o - - t o pay f or t hose i t ems of 15 bar gai ni ng t hat benef i t you as wel l as ever ybody el se. 16 But you don' t - - you don' t have t o pay f or st uf f t hat -

17 t hat i s not wi t hi n t hat descr i pt i on, st uf f t hat doesn' t 18 benef i t you at al l . 19 MR. MESSENGER: That ' s t r ue f or t r ue 20 empl oyees under t hi s Cour t ' s previ ous cases, but t he 21 quest i on, of cour se, her e i s do those same pr i nci pl es 22 appl y t o Medi cai d pr ovi der s or anyone el se who recei ves 23 money f r omgovernment . And t hat ' s -

24 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: They r ecei ve a sal ar y -

25 I mean, t hey r ecei ve - - i t ' s not a gover nment br anch t o




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1 t he - - t o t he heal t hcar e wor ker . They r ecei ve a 2 paycheck and t he government wi t hhol ds f r om t hem. The 3 gover nment makes a FI CA cont r i but i on f or t hemand 4 wi t hhol ds t he par t t hat ' s t hei r r esponsi bi l i t y. So i t 5 l ooks j ust l i ke t hey are an empl oyee of t he gover nment , 6 bei ng pai d by t he government , and the gover nment doi ng 7 t hi ngs t hat an empl oyer does: Wi t hhol d i ncome t ax, pay 8 i n par t t he FI CA t ax, wi t hhol d t he ot her par t . And t hey 9 ar e - - t hey' r e al so cover ed by wor ker s' compensat i on,

10 ar en' t t hey? 11 MR. MESSENGER: Oh, yes. Under I l l i noi s 12 l aw, t hey have -

13 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: As - - as empl oyees of t he 14 St at e. 15 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, Your Honor . But the 16 wage - - i n f act , def i ni ng whet her i t ' s wages or a f l at 17 r ei mbur sement r at e or a gr ant I don' t - - I submi t i s not 18 const i t ut i onal l y r el evant . So, f or exampl e, t he Act was 19 r ecent l y extended t o i ndependent nur ses and t her api st s 20 who pr ovi de i n- home car e. They' r e pai d a f l at r at e as 21 opposed t o an hour l y, what do you cal l i t , wage. 22 Const i t ut i onal l y, t her e' s no di f f er ence. The bot t om 23 l i ne i s i t ' s money f r om gover nment , f r om her e a Medi cai d 24 pr ogr am, t o pr ovi de car e t o ot her i ndi vi dual s. And I 25 submi t t hat doesn' t cr eat e an empl oyment r el at i onshi p




25


1 any more than a doctor i s pr i vat el y empl oyed by a heal t h 2 i nsurer - - i nsurance company mer el y because t hey pay f or 3 i t . 4 J USTI CE GI NSBURG: They' r e not get t i ng a 5 paycheck and t he i nsur ance - - i nsur er i s not deduct i ng 6 wi t hhol di ng t ax, i sn' t payi ng FI CA t ax? 7 MR. MESSENGER: That i s pai d, but t he St ate 8 i s doi ng i t as pay agent . And so whi l e t he money i s 9 comi ng f r om t he St at e, t he St at e i s doi ng i t as pay

10 agent f or t he per son wi t h di sabi l i t i es, who i s t r ul y t he 11 empl oyer . 12 J USTI CE ALI TO: I t hought t he Stat e t ook t he 13 posi t i on t hat t hese i ndi vi dual s are St at e empl oyees f or 14 one pur pose onl y, col l ect i vel y bar gai ni ng. I sn' t t hat 15 t hei r posi t i on. 16 MR. MESSENGER: Yes, t hat ' s r i ght i n t he 17 st at ut e, Your Honor , t hat ' s i t ' s sol el y f or pur poses of 18 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng. 19 J USTI CE ALI TO: So i f one of t hese 20 i ndi vi dual s commi t s gross mi sconduct , causes t he deat h 21 of a pat i ent , t he St at e has no l i abi l i t y? 22 MR. MESSENGER: I t ' s r i ght i n t he st at ut e. 23 The Stat e sai d i t ' s not - - does not ext end vi car i ous 24 l i abi l i t y t o i ndependent pr ovi der s. 25 J USTI CE BREYER: When you come back, I ' d




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1 appr eci at e your t hi nki ng about t hi s, but obvi ousl y 2 you' r e aski ng us t o over t ur n a case that ' s been t he l aw 3 f or 35 year s. I count hundr eds of ci t at i ons i n t he 4 opi ni on, and I guess t her e ar e mi l l i ons of i nst ances i n 5 whi ch empl oyees and empl oyers and ot hers have r el i ed on 6 i t i n col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng, so I ' d appr eci at e your 7 sayi ng sent ence a or t wo of why we shoul d upset 8 r easonabl e expect at i ons over so l ong a per i od of t i me. 9 MR. MESSENGER: Sur e.

10 I ' d l i ke t o reser ve the remai nder of my 11 t i me. 12 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Thank you, counsel . 13 Mr . Smi t h. 14 ORAL ARGUMENT OF PAUL M. SMI TH 15 ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS 16 MR. SMI TH: Thank you, Your Honor . 17 Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and may i t pl ease t he 18 Cour t : 19 10 year s ago, t he St at e of I l l i noi s made a 20 deci si on about t he best way t o del i ver homecar e ser vi ces 21 t o t housands of per sons wi t h physi cal di sabi l i t i es i n 22 t he St at e who wi t hout t hose ser vi ces woul d need t o l i ve 23 i n i nst i t ut i onal set t i ngs. I t made t he j udgment t hat 24 wor ki ng wi t h the uni on t o negot i ate and i mpl ement a 25 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng agr eement f or t hese wor ker s t hat




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1 i t was payi ng woul d hel p meet i t s servi ce del i ver y goal s 2 f or t hi s popul at i on, t hi s gr oup of wor ker s, whi ch was -

3 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Why? I f your adver sar y 4 says t hat t he r ei mbur sement r at e i s set by t he Medi cai d 5 progr am, so why do you need a uni on t o t el l you how much 6 t o pay i f i t ' s al r eady set ? 7 MR. SMI TH: There i s no r ei mbur sement r ate 8 f or t hese worker s set by t he Medi cai d pr ogr am, Your 9 Honor . The amount of money t hey are pai d i s an hour l y

10 wage set i n t he col l ect i vel y bar gai ni ng agr eement . When 11 t he uni on was f i r st r ecogni zed, i t was $7 an hour and 12 t here were no benef i t s. Because t he St ate has chosen t o 13 wor k wi t h i t s uni on, i t has produced a package of 14 benef i t s desi gned t o cr eat e a sol ut i on t o t he mor al e 15 pr obl ems, t he r ecr ui t ment pr obl ems, t he r et ent i on 16 probl ems. 17 J USTI CE SCALI A: I don' t under st and what 18 you' r e sayi ng. I f t her e wer e no uni on, t her e woul d be 19 no wages? 20 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor , t he St ate' s j udgment 21 i s t hat i t can bet t er make t hese det er mi nat i ons i n 22 par t ner shi p wi t h t he uni on and t hat t he pr ocess of 23 negot i at i on gi ves i t bot h t angi bl e and i nt angi bl e 24 benef i t s. The t angi bl e benef i t i s i t f i gur es out what 25 t he pr i or i t y needs of t he wor ker s are.





28 1 J USTI CE SCALI A: So f r om t he out set , i t set 2 up t he uni on, r i ght , and t he uni on sai d, We want 7 bucks 3 an hour . Was t hat i t ? 4 MR. SMI TH: The 7 bucks an hour was what 5 t hey were get t i ng pai d bef ore t he uni on was on t he 6 scene, Your Honor , and t he St at e -

7 J USTI CE SCALI A: And who pi cked t hat number ? 8 MR. SMI TH: The St ate di d. 9 J USTI CE SCALI A: The Stat e di d. Okay.

10 MR. SMI TH: And i t gave t he workers t he 11 oppor t uni t y, as i t has ever y r i ght t o do, t o have a 12 maj or i t y of t he peopl e i n t he wor kf or ce say, we' d l i ke 13 t o be r epr esent ed, we' d l i ke t o have somebody i n t he 14 r oom r epr esent i ng us. And, as a r esul t , t hey not onl y 15 have subst ant i al l y i ncr eased t he wages, but t hey have 16 pai d heal t h car e, t hey have pai d t r ai ni ng and 17 or i ent at i on. Ther e' s a gr i evance syst em whi ch i s a -

18 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I t hought Medi cai d 19 had somet hi ng to do wi t h how much t hey wer e r ei mbur sed. 20 You' r e sayi ng Medi cai d i s besi de t he poi nt ? 21 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor , i n t hi s ki nd of 22 t hi ng, we' r e t al ki ng about t he wages of basi c car e 23 wor ker s l i ke i f t hey wer e i n a nur si ng home or i n a 24 St at e hospi t al or wher ever t hey mi ght be. The f act t hat 25 Medi cai d - -




29


1 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I f you hi r e a 2 homecar e pr ovi der t o pr ovi de homecar e servi ces, i sn' t 3 how much t he person i s compensat ed - - you have a 4 Medi cai d pr ogr am, a cooper at i ve pr ogr am wi t h t he Feder al 5 Gover nment . Doesn' t i t set t he r at es wi t h whi ch t hose 6 servi ces are r ei mbur sed? 7 MR. SMI TH: The wages f or t hese ki nds of 8 wor ker s are set by t he St ate under t he Medi cai d pr ogr am. 9 They' r e not set by t he Feder al Government , Your Honor .

10 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , r i ght , i t ' s a 11 cooper at i ve St at e/ Feder al pr ogr am. But i sn' t t her e -

12 are you sayi ng the wages have nothi ng to do wi t h how 13 much t he - - t he Medi cai d r ei mbur sement f or t hese t ypes 14 of ser vi ces? 15 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor , t hese are peopl e 16 bei ng empl oyed by t he St at e wi t h money that happens t o 17 come f r om t he Medi cai d pr ogr am i n or der - - i t ' s a 18 Feder al pr oj ect t o get peopl e out of nur si ng homes i nt o 19 t hei r homes, and so t hey l et t he St ate di ver t money over 20 t o pay f or t hese peopl e t o be i n the home. 21 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: But t hey don' t j ust 22 gi ve you a bunch of money and say, wel l , her e i t i s, you 23 f i gur e out how much you want t o - - I mean, I t hought 24 t hi s case had somet hi ng t o do wi t h t he f act t hat 25 Medi cai d was used to r ei mbur se t hese empl oyees, and




30


1 you' r e sayi ng i t has not hi ng t o do wi t h t hat at al l ? 2 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor , as I underst and t he 3 const i t ut i onal chal l enge i n t hi s case, t he sour ce of t he 4 money, t he St at e' s deci si on about -

5 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I j ust want t o know, 6 not what t hei r chal l enge i s. I want t o know wher e t he 7 money comes f r om. I t comes f r om Medi cai d, and I assume 8 Medi cai d set s some par amet er s about how much you can 9 r ei mbur se homecar e pr ovi ders.

10 MR. SMI TH: I ' m not awar e of any, Your 11 Honor . My underst andi ng -

12 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So you can negot i at e 13 whatever r ates you want wi t h the homecar e pr ovi ders 14 r egar dl ess of what Medi cai d says about t hose ser vi ces? 15 MR. SMI TH: "You" t he St at e of I l l i noi s, you 16 mean? 17 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Yes, yes. 18 MR. SMI TH: The St at e of I l l i noi s, Your 19 Honor , as f ar as I know, I ' m not awar e of any 20 l i mi t at i on. I expect t hat t her e may be some at some 21 poi nt , but i n t er ms of t he -

22 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Mr . Smi t h, I t hi nk t hat 23 t her e' s - - I must say t hat I mi ght have l abor ed under 24 i t . From your adver sar y' s st at ement , i t appear s as i f 25 t her e' s a bel i ef t hat t he Feder al Gover nment sets a




31


1 f i xed amount and t hat ' s what t he St ate has t o pay. 2 Whether t he Federal Government pays you a cert ai n 3 amount , however , you seem t o be sayi ng t he St ate can go 4 above t hat amount i f i t chooses. That ' s t he cooper at i ve 5 nat ur e of t hi s. 6 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor , t he exact natur e of 7 t he f und t r ansf er f r om t he Feder al Gover nment t o t he 8 St at e may wel l be based on an i ndi vi dual ' s annual cost s 9 wi t h a par t i cul ar di agnosi s. I ' m i n t he r eal m of

10 specul at i on her e, but i t ' s ver y cl ear f r om t hi s r ecor d 11 t hat t hese deci si ons about how t hese i ndi vi dual s wi l l be 12 pai d are made by t he St ate, and t hat t hey have the 13 di scr et i on under t he pr ogr am t o do t hat , and t hat t hey 14 deci ded t hat t hey woul d deal wi t h t he pr obl ems of 15 r ecr ui t ment and r et ent i on and mor al e i n t hi s wor kf or ce, 16 whi ch i s, of cour se, scat t er ed t o t ens of t housands of 17 wor k si t es acr oss t he count r y. 18 J USTI CE ALI TO: Mr . Smi t h, what I don' t 19 under st and i s why t he uni on' s par t i ci pat i on i n t hi s i s 20 essent i al . The St at e can say, t hi s i s how much t hese 21 peopl e ar e bei ng pai d, i t ' s not enough, we want t o 22 i ncr ease i t , we want t o i ncr ease i t by 10 per cent , 20 23 per cent , 30 per cent , what ever i t i s. They need some -

24 t hey shoul d have ext r a benef i t s. Wel l , we' l l gi ve t hem 25 t hese benef i t s and t hese benef i t s and t hese benef i t s.




32


1 Why do t hey need to have t he uni on i ntervene here? 2 MR. SMI TH: The St at e of I l l i noi s, l i ke many 3 empl oyer s, deci ded t hat , A, t hey woul d get t hat r i ght 4 mor e l i kel y i f t hey wer e deal i ng wi t h a r epr esent at i ve 5 of t he worker s who tol d t hemwhat t hey care about , 6 whet her i t ' s pai d vacat i on ver sus hi gher wages ver sus 7 l ess hour s dur i ng t he week or more hour s dur i ng t he week 8 or what ever i t mi ght be. 9 I t al so sai d t hat , because t hese deci si ons

10 ar e goi ng t o be made i n t he pr ocess of negot i at i on, 11 whi ch the workers know t hey have a pl ace at t he t abl e, 12 somebody who was t her e l ooki ng out f or t hei r i nt er est s, 13 t he worker s wi l l have a di f f erent sense of commi t ment 14 t o -

15 J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , t hat ' s f i ne f or t he 16 wor ker s who want t he uni on t o repr esent t hem i n maki ng 17 t hese demands. 18 Let me gi ve you t hi s exampl e, whi ch I t hi nk 19 get s t o what t he pl ai nt i f f s i n t hi s case f i nd 20 di stur bi ng. Let ' s say t hi s i s - - t hi s i nvol ves t he a 21 t eacher s uni on. So t he t eacher s uni on i s negot i at i ng 22 about t he i ssue of t enur e and mer i t pay, and t he uni on 23 i s opposed t o any change i n t he t enur e syst em, i t ' s 24 opposed t o mer i t pay. 25 Now, t her e' s a t eacher who' s not a member of




33


1 t he uni on who di sagr ees compl et el y wi t h t he uni on on 2 t hese i ssues, but t hi s t eacher - - and t he t eacher i s not 3 a member of t he uni on, but st i l l has t o pay a pr et t y 4 hef t y agency f ee, maybe $700 a year . So t he t eacher i s 5 payi ng t hi s money t o t he uni on t o make an argument t o 6 t he empl oyer wi t h whi ch the t eacher compl etel y 7 di sagr ees. 8 Now, i f t hi s t eacher j ust want s t o get back 9 t o a neut r al posi t i on, t he t eacher i s goi ng t o have t o

10 spend $700 or maybe $500 of hi s or her own money, pay 11 t hat t o anot her or gani zat i on t hat wi l l pr esent t hat 12 t eacher ' s poi nt of vi ew t o the empl oyer . 13 How can t hat be - - what woul d you say t o 14 t hat , t o t hat t eacher ? That , you know, You have a r i ght 15 t o be - - You have a r i ght t o say what ever you want on 16 t hese i ssues, but you don' t have a r i ght t o be a 17 t eacher ? 18 MR. SMI TH: Wel l , Your Honor , I woul d say 19 t hat t he Cour t has cor r ect l y hel d over a per i od of mor e 20 t han 30 year s t hat t hat r equi r ement i s an appr opr i at e 21 t hi ng whi ch a publ i c empl oyer i s al l owed t o i mpose 22 because of t he dut y of f ai r r epr esent at i on and because 23 of t he benef i t s of al l owi ng col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng t o 24 pr oceed wi t h t he dut y of f ai r r epr esent at i on i mposed on 25 t he uni on.




34


1 As J ust i ce Scal i a put i t i n hi s Lehner t 2 opi ni on, t hi s i s not a nor mal sor t of f r ee r i der 3 ar gument . Thi s i s a f r ee r i der ar gument wher e t he l aw 4 r equi r es t he uni on t o l ook af t er t hat t eacher and make 5 sur e that t hey get t r eat ed equal l y. 6 J USTI CE ALI TO: Mr . Smi t h, ar e you sayi ng 7 t hat t hi s - - t hat t he uni ons r el uctant l y accept t he dut y 8 of bei ng t he excl usi ve r epr esent at i ve f or al l t he 9 empl oyees? They don' t r eal l y want t o do t hi s, but t he

10 l aw r equi r es t hem t o do t hi s, but because t he l aw 11 r equi r es t hem t o do t hi s t hen t hey have t o get t hi s 12 agency f ee? I s t hat real l y - - i s t hat real i s t i cal l y 13 what happens? 14 MR. SMI TH: Wel l , t hat i s t he syst em we 15 have, Your Honor . And i magi ne what t he wor l d woul d l ook 16 l i ke i f t her e wer en' t -

17 J USTI CE ALI TO: Ser i ousl y, t he uni ons do not 18 want t o have t he - - t hey don' t want t o be gi ven t he 19 st at us of t he excl usi ve bar gai ni ng agent f or t he 20 empl oyees? 21 MR. SMI TH: I - - I t hi nk t her e may be 22 var i at i on on t hat . I i magi ne t her e mi ght be some uni on 23 out t her e that woul d want t o be abl e to f avor t hei r 24 member s over ot her . But t he l aw doesn' t r equi r e t hat , 25 and f or a ver y good r eason, i ncl udi ng t he Fi r st




35


1 Amendment r eason. 2 I magi ne a wor l d i n whi ch t hat t eacher i s -

3 woul d be pai d 10 percent l ess as we were di scussi ng 4 bef or e, because t hat t eacher has chosen not t o be a f ul l 5 member of t he uni on. And i magi ne t he pr essure on 6 associ at i onal r i ght s t hat woul d be cr eat ed f or t hat 7 t eacher f aced wi t h t hat choi ce. You coul d be pai d 10 8 per cent l ess doi ng the same wor k, or you can be pai d the 9 same as ever ybody el se, but you have t o f ul l y j oi n t he

10 uni on and pay f or t hei r pol i t i cal speech and pay f or 11 ever ythi ng on t he nonchar geabl e si de of t he l i ne. 12 And, you know, what t hi s Cour t has done over 13 t he l ast 30 year s i s use t hat di st i nct i on bet ween 14 chargeabl e and nonchargeabl e i t ems t o bal ance t he Fi r st 15 Amendment i nt erest s of t he -

16 J USTI CE KENNEDY: But i n t al ki ng about Fi r st 17 Amendment i nt er est s, l et me ask you t hi s: I s i t not a 18 st andar d i ssue i n col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng f or t he 19 empl oyees' uni on t o t al k about t he si ze of t he 20 wor kf or ce? 21 MR. SMI TH: Your Honor -

22 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , i t ' s necessar i l y so 23 i f t hey' r e t al ki ng about hour s. 24 MR. SMI TH: I t i s - - i t i s cer t ai nl y 25 possi bl e t hat i n some si t uat i ons - -





36 1 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Al l r i ght . And woul d you 2 t hi nk t hat t hi s i s a l egi t i mat e subj ect of col l ecti ve 3 bar gai ni ng f or whi ch the nonuni on member has t o pay? 4 MR. SMI TH: I t i s cer t ai nl y not a subj ect of 5 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng t hat coul d ar i se i n t hi s 6 si t uat i on. Thi s s i t uat i on -

7 J USTI CE KENNEDY: No, I ' m t al ki ng about -

8 l et ' s say t he t eacher s' uni on. They' r e t al ki ng about 9 cl assr oom si ze. They' r e t al ki ng about hour s. That

10 necessar i l y i nvol ves t he si ze of t he wor kf or ce, does i t 11 not . 12 MR. SMI TH: I t - - i t i s possi bl y, Your 13 Honor . I t ' s ent i r el y up -

14 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I t ' s not onl y possi bl e; 15 i t ' s necessar i l y t r ue. Let ' s assume t hat i t ' s t r ue. 16 MR. SMI TH: Assumi ng - - Assumi ng a school 17 di str i ct deci des to l et -

18 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Let ' s - - l et ' s assume t hat 19 i t ' s tr ue, t hat a uni on' s posi t i on necessar i l y af f ects 20 t he si ze of gover nment . I s not t he si ze of gover nment a 21 quest i on on whi ch t her e ar e f undament al pol i t i cal 22 bel i ef s, f undament al convi ct i ons t hat ar e bei ng 23 sacr i f i ced i f a nonuni on member obj ect s t o t hi s l i ne of 24 pol i cy? Ar e t her e not ot her uni on pr oposal s t hat say -

25 t hat St at e empl oyee' s sal ar y must be a cer t ai n




37


1 per cent age of t he t ot al St at e expendi t ur e? Does t hi s 2 not al so i nvol ve t he si ze of gover nment , whi ch i s a 3 f undament al i ssue of pol i t i cal bel i ef ? 4 MR. SMI TH: Any out come of a negot i at i on of 5 a col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng agr eement i nvol vi ng publ i c 6 empl oyees wi l l i nvol ve t he expendi t ur e of publ i c money 7 i n a var i et y of ways, and t he out come of t hat wi l l , i n 8 t hat l i mi t ed sense, at l east , be a mat t er of publ i c 9 concer n ever y bi t as much and - - and no more than when a

10 gover nment cont r act or -

11 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I ' m not t al ki ng about a 12 quest i on of publ i c concer n. I ' m t al ki ng about whet her 13 or not a uni on can t ake money f r om an empl oyee who 14 obj ect s t o t he uni on' s posi t i on on f undament al pol i t i cal 15 grounds. 16 MR. SMI TH: Wel l , Your Honor , t hat i s what 17 t he Abood di st i nct i on between chargeabl e and 18 nonchargeabl e -

19 J USTI CE KENNEDY: And I ' m - - I ' m aski ng t he 20 j ust i f i cat i on f or t hat under t he Fi r st Amendment . 21 MR. SMI TH: Ri ght . And -

22 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I n - - i n an er a wher e 23 gover nment i s get t i ng bi gger and bi gger , and t hi s i s 24 becomi ng more and more of an i mpor t ant i ssue t o mor e 25 peopl e.




38


1 MR. SMI TH: But I t hi nk i t ' s i mpor t ant t o 2 underst and t hat whi l e there i s an i mpi ngement on t he 3 Fi r st Amendment i nt er est on any empl oyer - - empl oyee 4 r equi r ed t o pay t he f ai r shar e f ee, t hi s i sn' t any -

5 t he gover nment empl oyee cont ext i n whi ch t he government 6 has t he abi l i t y when i t ser ves i t s i mpor t ant i nt er est as 7 empl oyer t o demand that i t s empl oyees -

8 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , you say i t ' s a f ai r 9 shar e, but t hat ' s t he i ssue i n t he case i f you' r e

10 l ooki ng at t he l egi t i macy of Abood. 11 MR. SMI TH: Wel l , Your Honor , l ook at -

12 l ook at -

13 J USTI CE KENNEDY: I mean, you say i t ' s f ai r 14 shar e. The obj ect or s t o Abood say t hat i t i sn' t . 15 MR. SMI TH: Look at what t he uni on i s -

16 what t he - - what t he money i s bei ng spent on i n t hi s 17 case. I t ' s bei ng spent on negot i at i ng a cont r act , whi ch 18 has produced a package of benef i t s and wage i ncr eases 19 t hat have been ext r emel y i mpor t ant t o ever ybody i n - - i n 20 t hi s wor kf or ce. I t ' s bei ng spent on a cal l cent er t hat 21 al l ows peopl e to cal l t o thei r uni on and get answer s t o 22 quest i ons about pr obl ems, a gr i evance syst emt hat makes 23 sur e thei r paychecks don' t go mi ssi ng and hel ps t hem 24 addr ess t hat pr obl em, t r ai ni ng, gl oves t hat t hey need 25 f or t hei r per sonal saf et y i n t he wor kpl ace, and





39 1 heal t hcar e benef i t s. 2 Now, t her e are - - may be peopl e who t hi nk 3 i t ' s pol i t i cal cont r over si al t o have t o cont r i but e t o a 4 uni on t hat does t hose t hi ngs and not hi ng el se. But I 5 submi t t o you t hat bal ance t hat agai nst t he i nt er est s of 6 t he St ate as empl oyer and say we want t o have t hi s 7 par t ner shi p wi t h t hi s uni on. Thi s wi l l hel p us do a 8 bet t er j ob del i ver i ng ser vi ces t o t hi s vul ner abl e 9 popul at i on and save us a l ot of money keepi ng t he

10 mat t er -

11 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: One t hi ng. 12 Mr . Smi t h, t he f i r st wor d i n your br i ef i s "Medi cai d. " 13 I don' t underst and, because t he ar gument can be made 14 t hat Medi cai d r ei mbur sement r at es i s an i mpor t ant publ i c 15 pol i cy i ssue, not si mpl y a l abor i ssue. 16 Now, l et ' s say you have a t eacher s' uni on, 17 okay? They t hi nk i t ' s a ver y i mpor t ant publ i c i ssue. 18 They have a pl at f or m. They engage i n act i vi t i es t o get 19 hi gher Medi cai d r ei mbur sement r at es. I s t hat somet hi ng 20 t hat a nonuni on member woul d have to pay f or or woul d 21 t hey - - woul d t hat expense be segr egat ed out of what 22 t hey must pay? 23 MR. SMI TH: I ' m sor r y, Your Honor . Coul d I 24 j ust hear t he quest i on one more t i me? 25 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Teacher - - t eacher




40


1 uni on, okay? 2 MR. SMI TH: Yes, si r . 3 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: They have a 4 pol i t i cal posi t i on on Medi cai d r at es. They spend money 5 t o advance t hat posi t i on. I f you' r e a t eacher , but 6 you' r e not a member of t he uni on, do you have t o pay f or 7 t hat expendi t ur e? 8 MR. SMI TH: I t woul d seem t o me, Your Honor , 9 somet hi ng t hat ' s not wi t hi n t he char geabl e expenses t hat

10 a t eacher s' uni on coul d char ge. 11 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Ri ght . Same - - same 12 publ i c - - same expenses f or Medi cai d -

13 MR. SMI TH: Yes. 14 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: - - but you' r e a home 15 car e pr ovi der . Your uni on spends t o get hi gher Medi cai d 16 r ates. You' r e not a member of t he uni on. Do you have 17 t o pay f or t hei r pol i t i cal act i vi t y t o r ai se Medi cai d 18 rates? 19 MR. SMI TH: To t he extent t hat you' r e 20 t al ki ng about t he negot i at i on over how much you' r e goi ng 21 t o be pai d f or pr ovi di ng ser vi ces, I t hi nk i t ' s 22 per f ect l y appr opr i at e under t he Cour t ' s cases t o -

23 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So one - - I ' m sorr y. 24 I f I coul d j ust f i ni sh t he t hought . So t he same speech 25 wi t h r espect t o one uni on i s a speech on a mat t er of





41 1 publ i c concer n, but wi t h r espect t o anot her uni on, i t ' s 2 not ? 3 MR. SMI TH: I t ' s on t he char geabl e si de of 4 t he l i ne when i t has t o do wi t h t he - - t he t er ms and 5 condi t i ons of empl oyment of t he - - of t he member s of t he 6 uni on or t he nonmembers of t he uni on. 7 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Okay. So i t ' s 8 Medi cai d. Now, i s that par t of t he char geabl e expenses 9 or not ? Thi s uni on want s t o t al k about Medi cai d

10 r ei mbur sement r at es. Can a nonuni on member be compel l ed 11 t o shar e that expense? 12 MR. SMI TH: I f what you mean by Medi cai d 13 r ei mbur sement r at es, Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, i s t he hour l y 14 r at e t hat ' s goi ng t o be pai d t o t hose peopl e -

15 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I mean Medi cai d 16 r ei mbur sement r ates. That ' s what I mean by Medi cai d 17 r ei mbur sement r ates. 18 MR. SMI TH: Wel l , i f t hat ' s what you mean, 19 t hen i t seems t o me ver y cl ear t hat t hey shoul d be 20 al l owed t o charge t he di ss i dent nonmember because t hat 21 per son i s goi ng t o get al l t he benef i t of i t . 22 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So i n t hi s case -

23 i n t hi s case, i f t hi s uni on negot i at es over Medi cai d 24 r ei mbur sement r at es, i t i s char geabl e. 25 MR. SMI TH: Yes, Your Honor, t o t he






43


1 get i nt o t he busi ness - - I ' m put t i ng i t i n a l i t t l e 2 l oaded way because I don' t want t o suggest t he answer . 3 Shoul d t hi s Cour t make t hat di st i nct i on and get i nt o the 4 busi ness of sayi ng when t he uni on i s t oo much of a 5 l abor - - wages, hour s, and wor ki ng condi t i ons ar e t oo 6 l i kel y t o af f ect publ i c i ssues, and t he ot her ones l ess 7 l i kel y, et cet er a, you see t he di st i ncti on t hat t he 8 quest i on t hat was added suggest s? 9 Now, I woul d l i ke you t o t hi nk about -

10 t hat ' s a phi l osophi cal quest i on or a ver y br oad Fi r st 11 Amendment quest i on. And I ' d l i ke t o hear what your 12 answer i s and the government ' s. 13 MR. SMI TH: My answer , Your Honor , woul d be 14 t hat t he f act t hat i t i s a publ i c empl oyee uni on, 15 r epr esent i ng publ i c empl oyees means t hat i n one sense, 16 ever ythi ng t hat i s bei ng negot i at ed coul d be vi ewed as a 17 gr eat er mat t er of publ i c concer n. 18 On t he ot her hand, t hat i s not a r eason, as 19 Abood hel d, t o up t he ant e i n t er ms of const i t ut i onal 20 scr ut i ny. To t he cont r ar y, t hi s i s the gover nment as 21 empl oyer deal i ng wi t h i t s empl oyees about t he basi c 22 t er ms and condi t i ons of t hei r empl oyment . And -

23 J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , l et me ask you a 24 quest i on about pensi ons. Now, t hat ' s a ver y bi g publ i c 25 pol i cy i ssue. I t hi nk i n I l l i noi s , t he l egi s l at ure





44 1 r ecent l y cut pensi ons of - - of publ i c empl oyees. That 2 woul d be a subj ect - - t hat coul d be a subj ect of - - of 3 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng, r i ght ? So t hat woul d be -

4 bar gai ni ng on t hat woul d be chargeabl e? 5 MR. SMI TH: I t woul d be a subj ect i f t he 6 St at e chose t o l et - - l et i t become a subj ect . The 7 St at e compl et el y cont r ol s what - - what can be a subj ect 8 of col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng and what can' t . 9 J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , i f t he - - i f t he uni on

10 spends a l ot of money t r yi ng t o bar gai n on t hat i ssue, 11 t hat ' s - - t hat ' s a char geabl e expense, i s i t not ? 12 MR. SMI TH: I f t he St ate has chosen t o make 13 i t par t of t he cont r act t hat can be negot i at ed, yes. 14 J USTI CE ALI TO: Al l r i ght . Now, what do you 15 say t o t he young empl oyee who i s not very much concer ned 16 at t hi s poi nt about pensi ons, but r eal i zes t her e' s a 17 cer t ai n pot of money, and i t ' s ei t her goi ng t o go f or 18 pensi ons or i t ' s goi ng t o go f or sal ar y at t he pr esent 19 t i me. So t hat empl oyee who' s not a member of t he uni on 20 has t o pay f or t he uni on t o bar gai n wi t h t he - - t he 21 St at e t o achi eve somet hi ng t hat ' s cont r ar y to t hat 22 per son' s i nt er est . But you say t hat per son i s a f r ee 23 r i der . 24 MR. SMI TH: Yes, Your Honor . That - - t hat 25 per son, i f i t ' s not payi ng t hei r shar e of t hat , t hen you




45


1 have t wo t hi ngs t hat happened. The other members - - t he 2 other peopl e i n t he workf orce have t o pay more to 3 suppor t t he pr ocess, or t he uni on doesn' t have t he 4 r esour ces needed t o be a - - an adequat e par t ner wi t h t he 5 St ate i n pr oduci ng t he out come t hat t he St ate has chosen 6 t o t r y t o seek, whi ch i s an out come wher e t he mut ual l y 7 benef i ci al ar r angement s ar e made that sat i sf y t he 8 pr i or i t i es of ever ybody her e, t he wor ker s and t he St at e 9 and, i ndeed, t he cl i ent s t hat t hey ser ve.

10 J USTI CE KENNEDY: Suppose t he young per son 11 t hi nks t hat t he St at e i s squander i ng hi s her i t age on 12 unnecessary and excessi ve payment s or benef i t s and 13 wages. I s t hat not a pol i t i cal bel i ef of t he hi ghest 14 or der ? And, you know, we t al k about f r ee r i der s, whi ch 15 i s an epi t het i cal phr ase. Maybe t he obj ect i ng empl oyee 16 woul d say t hat t he uni on i s a speech di st or t er ; i t i s 17 t aki ng vi ews t hat are not hi s and maki ng t hemmandatory 18 subj ect t o bar gai ni ng and char gi ng hi m f or i t . 19 MR. SMI TH: What ' s mi ssi ng I t hi nk i n t hi s 20 conver sat i on, Your Honor , i s t hat al l of t hese bur dens 21 on peopl e' s associ at i onal r i ght s or f r ee speech r i ght s 22 or what ever you want t o cal l t hem ar i ses onl y because 23 somebody has chosen t o come take t hi s j ob worki ng f or 24 t he St at e on t he t er ms t he St at e of f er s. And as you' ve 25 sai d many t i mes - -




46


1 J USTI CE KENNEDY: So your posi t i on i s t hat 2 t he publ i c empl oyees must sur r ender a subst ant i al amount 3 of Fi r st Amendment r i ght s t o work f or t he government ? 4 MR. SMI TH: When t here are subst ant i al 5 i nt er est s of t he gover nment as empl oyer t hat ar e ser ved 6 by t he sacr i f i ce. What you' ve sai d over and over i n 7 Dur yea, i n Gar cet t i , and i n a whol e l i ne of cases i s t he 8 gover nment get s t o have l eeway as an empl oyer when ther e 9 ar e r eal i nt er est s at st ake, and t hat i n t hat si t uat i on,

10 t he empl oyee coul d be put t o the choi ce. 11 Thank you, Your Honor . 12 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Thank you, counsel . 13 General . 14 ORAL ARGUMENT OF DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , 15 FOR THE UNI TED STATES, AS AMI CUS CURI AE, 16 SUPPORTI NG THE RESPONDENTS 17 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and 18 may i t pl ease t he Cour t : 19 The l i ne drawn i n Abood i s sound. I t has 20 t he f or ce of st ar e deci si s behi nd i t , i t i s compl et el y 21 consi st ent wi t h t hi s Cour t ' s Fi r st Amendment 22 j ur i sprudence, and i t r equi r es af f i r mance. 23 I f I coul d, I ' d l i ke t o t urn t o t he 24 quest i ons t hat J ust i ce Kennedy has r ai sed because I do 25 t hi nk i t get s t o t he key i ssue i n t he case. I t hi nk t he




47


1 key poi nt , t he key t akeaway i n t hi s case, i s t hat t he 2 cont ext we ar e deal i ng wi t h her e i s t he government as 3 pr opr i et or and manager of i t s own oper at i ons. And t hi s 4 Cour t ' s case l aw has sai d over and over agai n t hat i n 5 t hat cont ext , t wo t hi ngs f ol l ow. 6 Fi r st , t he gover nment ' s i nt er est i n t he 7 ef f ect i ve and ef f i ci ent car r yi ng out of i t s own 8 oper at i ons i s ent i t l ed t o ver y subst ant i al wei ght , mor e 9 subst ant i al wei ght t han i t woul d get i f you wer e l ooki ng

10 at t he gover nment as a sover ei gn regul at i ng the 11 ci t i zenr y. 12 And second, yes, J ust i ce Kennedy, i ndeed as 13 Your Honor s' opi ni on i n Gar cet t i and Your Honor s' 14 opi ni on i n Bor ough of Dur yea recogni zed bot h t i mes, t he 15 empl oyees' Fi r st Amendment i nt er est s ar e di mi ni shed to 16 t he ext ent t hat t he government has more l at i t ude when 17 t he gover nment can show t hat t he obl i gat i on i t i s 18 i mposi ng i s i n f ur t her ance of t he gover nment ' s 19 l egi t i mat e i nt er est s as manager of i t s own oper at i ons. 20 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Gener al Ver r i l l i , 21 does Medi cai d have anyt hi ng t o do wi t h t hi s case? 22 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Yes. Let me do my best 23 t o t r y t o cl ear t hat up, Mr . Chi ef J usti ce. I ' m goi ng 24 t o gi ve you t he best answer I can t o your quest i on. 25 Remember Medi cai d of cour se i s a j oi nt Feder al / St at e




48


1 pr ogr am. The Federal government pr ovi des f unds; t he 2 St at e pr ovi des f unds. Her e we' r e oper at i ng wi t hi n a 3 wai ver pr ogr am i n whi ch t he St at e i s gi ven consi der abl e 4 l at i t ude t o set wages and set r at es so l ong as i t i s 5 savi ng money as compar ed t o the i nst i t ut i onal i zat i on of 6 t hi s popul at i on. 7 My under st andi ng i s t hat HHS wi l l r evi ew 8 wage r ates set t o make sure t hat t hey meet ver y general 9 par amet er s. They wer e of t he ki nd descr i bed i n t he

10 Dougl as case t hat was bef ore the Cour t a coupl e of years 11 ago. 12 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Ri ght , r i ght . 13 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Ar e t hey hi gh enough t o 14 make sur e t he ser vi ces pr ovi di ng - - t hey' r e pr ovi ded 15 ef f ect i vel y and ar e t hey - - and ar e t hey const r ai ned 16 enough -

17 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Ri ght . Your 18 st at ement of i nt er est - - your st at ement of i nt er est 19 expl ai ni ng why you ar e her e t oday di scusses t he ef f ect 20 of t he Medi cai d pr ogr am. 21 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Ri ght , but i t ' s not t hat 22 t he - - but t he Feder al Gover nment i sn' t appr ovi ng t he 23 speci f i c hour l y wage r ate as Medi cai d r ei mbur sement 24 wi t hi n t hi s pr ogr am. That ' s a j udgment t hat t he 25 Medi cai d pr ogr am l eaves t o t he consi der abl e di scr et i on





49 1 of t he St at e. 2 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I f t he uni on want s 3 t o t al k about Medi cai d r at es wi t h t he St at e because they 4 woul d get a hi gher wage or coul d get a hi gher wage i f 5 Medi cai d r ei mbur sement was hi gher , i s t hat wi t hi n t he -

6 t hei r f unct i oni ng as a uni on r at her t han a pol i t i cal 7 group? 8 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Not as I underst and i t . 9 I t hi nk appl yi ng t he l i ne of Lehner t , t hat t hat woul d be

10 on t he i mper mi ssi bl e si de of t he l i ne. That woul d be 11 ef f ect i vel y seeki ng t o change publ i c pol i cy by changi ng 12 what t he l egi sl at ur e or t he -

13 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Oh, so i f t he uni on 14 want s t o say, l ook, t he onl y way our peopl e ar e goi ng t o 15 get hi gher wages i s i f t her e' s a hi gher Medi cai d 16 r ei mbur sement r at e f or t hi s ser vi ce, t hat i s not wi t hi n 17 t he scope of col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng? 18 GENERAL VERRI LLI : I t hi nk - - my 19 under st andi ng i s t hat t hat woul d be - - t he quest i on 20 t her e was at whi ch si de of t he l i ne t hat t he Cour t dr ew 21 i n Lehner t i s t hat on. I t hi nk t hat ' s pr obabl y on t he 22 - - on t he i mper mi ssi bl e si de of t he l i ne. But t hat ' s 23 where t he f i ght woul d be. I t woul d be over where t hat 24 l i ne shoul d be dr awn, not over whet her t he - - whet her 25 t he St at e, as manager of i t s own oper at i ons, can use




50


1 col l ecti ve bar gai ni ng wi t h a f ai r shar e, as J ust i ce 2 Scal i a ment i oned ear l i er , i n a way t hat pr i vat e 3 empl oyer s r out i nel y do. 4 I mean, I do t hi nk t hat ' s t he f undament al 5 poi nt of Abood, t hat pr i vat e - - t hat t he gover nment as 6 empl oyer , as manager of i t s own operat i ons, ought t o be 7 abl e t o make t he same ki nd of choi ce t hat pr i vat e 8 empl oyers make when t hey thi nk i t advances t hei r 9 i nt er est s i n ef f i ci ency and sound oper at i ons.

10 J USTI CE ALI TO: I f t he pl ai nt i f f s i n t hi s 11 case wer e t o be uni oni zed - - excuse me - - i n a uni oni zed 12 Federal workpl ace, woul d they be assessed a mandatory 13 agency f ee? 14 GENERAL VERRI LLI : No, t hey woul d not , 15 J ust i ce Al i t o, and we' r e not - - we' r e not her e maki ng an 16 ar gument t hat as a mat t er of pol i cy St at es ought t o 17 adopt f ai r shar e or not . The t hi ng t hat mat t er s t o us 18 i s t he pr i nci pl e of Fi r st Amendment l aw t hat ' s at st ake. 19 J USTI CE ALI TO: So t he Feder al Government 20 doesn' t t hi nk t hat i t needs t o assess a mandat or y agency 21 f ee f r om, l et ' s say, t he empl oyees i n t he Bor der Pat r ol . 22 I n or der t o make sur e t hat t he Bor der Pat r ol has hi gh 23 mor al e, suf f i ci ent sal ar y, suf f i ci ent benef i t s, i t can 24 do wi t hout t he agency f ee i n t hat si t uat i on? 25 GENERAL VERRI LLI : I t hasn' t , but t he key




51


1 poi nt f or us, t he poi nt of vi t al i mpor t ance f or t he 2 Uni t ed St at es her e, i s t hat t he Cour t cont i nue t o 3 r ecogni ze the cont ext , t he Fi r st Amendment cont ext of 4 t he government as manager of i t s own operat i ons. And 5 whatever choi ce t he Uni t ed St ates has made, many St ates 6 have made di f f er ent choi ces i n t hei r r ol e as manager of 7 t hei r own oper at i ons. And under t hi s Cour t ' s 8 est abl i shed case l aw, whi ch Abood, I t hi nk, i s a qui t e 9 good exampl e of , t he pr i nci pl e that when t he government

10 i s act i ng t o f ur t her i t s oper at i ons as manager t hey get 11 subst ant i al l at i t ude. Now, t her e' s a l i mi t on t hat , of 12 cour se. They can' t use t hat aut hor i t y t o - - t hey can' t 13 l ever age t hat aut hor i t y to af f ect t he way ci t i zens 14 i nt er act as ci t i zens -

15 J USTI CE SCALI A: Of cour se, one can be 16 skept i cal about whet her , when St at es do t hi s t hey ar e 17 doi ng i t because i t ' s mor e - - mor e ef f i ci ent as an 18 empl oyer , because some St ates have t r i ed t o f orce 19 pr i vat e empl oyer s t o have a cl osed shop, haven' t t hey? 20 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Wel l , I t hi nk -

21 J USTI CE SCALI A: And t her e' s no, you know, 22 no St at e gover nment i nt er est i n i t . Ther e' s j ust St at e 23 i nt er est i n uni ons. 24 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Yes, but here we argue -

25 J USTI CE SCALI A: And uni ons get t i ng a l ot of




52


1 money f r ompeopl e who don' t bel ong i n t he uni ons. So 2 one can be skept i cal about whet her t hi s i s r eal l y what ' s 3 goi ng on, t hat t he St at e r eal l y t hi nks i t ' s goi ng t o be 4 a l ot easi er i f i t has a cl osed shop. 5 GENERAL VERRI LLI : I guess what I woul d say 6 about t hat , J ust i ce Scal i a, i s t hat one coul d specul at e 7 about mot i ves of St at es l i ke I l l i noi s, one coul d 8 specul at e about mot i ves of t he r i ght t o wor k St at es, but 9 I woul d suggest t hat under our Feder al syst em t hat

10 St at es get t o make t hose ki nds of pol i cy choi ces. And 11 I l l i noi s has made a pol i cy choi ce, as many pr i vat e 12 empl oyer s have, t hat usi ng col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng - - and 13 i t i s, I want t o st r ess her e, ver y nar r owl y t ai l or ed 14 col l ect i ve bar gai ni ng. By l aw, i t can onl y be over 15 wages, hour s, and condi t i ons of empl oyment , by l aw. 16 J USTI CE ALI TO: Do you t hi nk t hat t he 17 speci f i c f act ual backgr ound of what occur r ed her e 18 pr ovi des a basi s f or skept i ci sm about I l l i noi s' s reason 19 f or adopt i ng t hi s? 20 GENERAL VERRI LLI : I don' t t hi nk so. When 21 t he l egi sl at i on was enact ed, i t was enact ed wi t h a ver y 22 l ar ge bi par t i san mar gi n, and I j ust don' t t hi nk i t woul d 23 be appr opr i ate i n t he cont ext of t he gover nment as 24 manager of i t s own oper at i ons t o l ook behi nd and t r y t o 25 consi der mot i ve. Thi s i s a choi ce t hat many - -





53 1 J USTI CE ALI TO: I t hought t he si t uat i on was 2 t hat Gover nment Bl agoj evi ch got a huge campai gn 3 cont r i but i on f r om t he uni on and vi r t ual l y as soon as he 4 got i nt o of f i ce he took out hi s pen and si gned an 5 execut i ve or der t hat had t he ef f ect of put t i ng, what was 6 i t , $3. 6 mi l l i on i nt o t he uni on cover s? 7 GENERAL VERRI LLI : What ever happened -

8 J USTI CE ALI TO: That ' s t he sequence; i sn' t 9 that correct?

10 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Wel l , I t hi nk t he i ssue 11 bef or e t he Cour t i s t he const i t ut i onal i t y of t he st at ut e 12 t hat was enacted subsequent t o t hat by a l arge 13 bi par t i san maj or i t y, and I don' t t hi nk i t woul d be 14 appr opr i at e t o l ook behi nd t he l egi sl at ur e' s act i on t o 15 consi der and t r y t o eval uat e i t s mot i ves. And I t hi nk 16 under our Feder al syst em St at es get t o make choi ces. 17 I t ' s t r ue not ever y St at e does i t t hi s way, but many do. 18 They do so f or r easons of ef f i ci ent management of t hei r 19 i nt er nal oper at i ons and t hat ' s t he pr i nci pl e t hat we 20 t hi nk i s of cri t i cal i mpor t ance her e. 21 J USTI CE SCALI A: They may do so because of 22 t hat r eason. You don' t know what t hei r r eason i s any 23 mor e t han I do. Al l you can say i s t hat t hat mi ght be 24 t hei r r eason. 25 GENERAL VERRI LLI : And t hey ought t o have





54 1 t he di scr et i on t o make t hat choi ce under t hi s Cour t ' s 2 case l aw. That ' s our posi t i on wi t h r espect t o t hat . 3 I f I coul d make a poi nt t hat I t hi nk i s an 4 i mpor t ant poi nt about t he f r ee r i der r at i onal e under 5 Abood. Ther e' s been some suggest i on t hat t he poi nt of 6 t he f ree r i der rat i onal e i s to - - i s to f orce t he 7 di ssent ers, t he nonuni on member s t o pay up. I don' t 8 t hi nk that ' s t he r i ght way t o under st and t he f r ee r i der 9 poi nt . That once t he St at e has i mposed a dut y of f ai r

10 r epr esent at i on, t hen ever ybody' s got an i ncent i ve t o 11 f r ee r i de, whet her you' r e a uni on suppor t er or not , 12 because by oper at i on of l aw, you' r e goi ng t o get t he 13 benef i t . 14 I t ' s j ust a cl assi c l ogi c of col l ect i ve 15 act i on pr obl em. And so t he - - t he f ai r shar e 16 r equi r ement r eal l y i s cont ent neut r al i n t hat i t ' s -

17 i t ' s desi gned t o ensur e t hat t he uni on has t he f unds i t 18 needs t o car r y out t he r esponsi bi l i t i es t hat t he St at e 19 want s i t t o car r y out and t hat t hat coul d be j eopar di zed 20 by suppor t er s as wel l as di ssi dent s, deci di ng t hat 21 t hey - - t hat t hey don' t want t o pay because they don' t 22 have t o, because t he l aw woul d get t hem t he benef i t of 23 t he dut y of f ai r r epr esent at i on even i f t hey di dn' t . 24 Now, wi t h r espect t o t he quest i on of - - of 25 whether Abood shoul d be over r ul ed, I woul d suggest t o





55 1 t he Cour t t hat i t ' s got a ver y power f ul st ar i n deci si s 2 ef f ect behi nd i t . Abood' s not exact l y an out l i er . I t 3 was r eaf f i r med i n Lehner t , i n El l i s. I t was r eaf f i r med 4 j ust i n 2009 unani mousl y i n t he Locke case. As J ust i ce 5 Br eyer i ndi cat ed, t her e i s ver y subst ant i al r el i ance, 6 and cont r act ual r el i ance thr oughout t he count r y on t he 7 const i t ut i onal i t y of Abood. 8 And as I - - I sai d, I t hi nk t he most 9 i mpor t ant poi nt her e i s t hat t he l i ne t he Cour t dr ew i n

10 Abood and t he l i ne t hat has st ood f or 40 year s i s 11 ent i r el y consi st ent wi t h t he Cour t ' s Fi r st Amendment 12 j ur i sprudence i n t he cont ext of gover nment as empl oyer , 13 not as r egul at or of sover ei gn. Of cour se, i f t he 14 gover nment was act i ng as soverei gn r egul at i ng t he 15 ci t i zenr y, an obl i gat i on of t hi s ki nd woul d t r i gger t he 16 most exact i ng scr ut i ny. 17 J USTI CE ALI TO: I s i t t r ue t hat f r om - - f r om 18 t he begi nni ng, t here have been members of t hi s Cour t who 19 have quest i oned whet her t her e i s any pr i nci pl e basi s f or 20 di st i ngui shi ng bet ween t he char geabl e and t he 21 nonchargeabl e expenses and al so have quest i oned whet her 22 as a pr act i cal mat t er t hat can be done? J ust i ce 23 Marshal l made that argument , di d he not? 24 GENERAL VERRI LLI : Yes. Cer t ai nl y, t hat 25 quest i on has been r ai sed. But t hose quest i ons wer e




56


1 act ual l y al l r ai sed bef or e -

2 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Pl ease f i ni sh your 3 t hought . 4 GENERAL VERRI LLI : - - bef or e i t was 5 r eaf f i r med i n Lehner t , bef or e i t was r eaf f i r med i n El l i s 6 and bef ore i t was r eaf f i r med i n Adamsl ey and Locke. 7 Thank you. 8 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Thank you, Gener al . 9 Mr . Messenger , you have f our mi nut es

10 r emai ni ng. 11 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF WI LLI AM L. MESSENGER 12 ON BEHALF OF THE PETI TI ONERS 13 J USTI CE BREYER: I suspect you' r e goi ng t o 14 answer my quest i on, so I want t o f ocus i t - - and I ' m 15 sor r y t o do t hi s, but I t hi nk i t ' s i mpor t ant . 16 Al l r i ght . I suspect you cannot answer my 17 quest i on about r el i ance wi t hout accept i ng one of t he 18 f ol l owi ng t hr ee pr oposi t i ons: Fi r st , unl i ke ever y ot her 19 empl oyee, gover nment empl oyees have no r i ght t o 20 or gani ze. Or second, t hey have a r i ght t o or gani ze, but 21 t hey cannot bargai n about wages, worki ng condi t i ons and 22 hour s unl i ke any ot her . That ' s t he same as t he f i r st . 23 Or , t hi r d, t he cour t s of t he Uni t ed St at es ar e goi ng t o 24 f ashi on, usi ng the Fi r st Amendment as t hei r weapon, a 25 new speci al l abor l aw f or gover nment empl oyees. And I ' d





57 1 r emi nd you we have some exper i ence on that i n t he 1930s 2 where cour t s t r i ed t o do somethi ng anal ogous. Now 3 answer my quest i on about r el i ance. 4 MR. MESSENGER: I bel i eve t her e - - t he 5 r el i ance i nt er est s her e ar e i nsi gni f i cant i f Abood i s 6 over r ul ed because the resul t wi l l si mpl y be that 7 empl oyees cannot be f orced t o support uni on 8 r epr esent at i on. The St at e -

9 J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Why woul d anybody j oi n 10 t he uni on under t hose ci r cumst ances or pay enough t o 11 suppor t t he uni on ef f or t s? 12 MR. MESSENGER: Because t he uni on f i r st 13 woul d cont r ol t hei r t er ms of t hei r economi c condi t i ons 14 of empl oyment and have cont r ol of t hei r r el at i ons wi t h 15 t hei r empl oyer , whi ch cr eat es a st r ong i ncent i ve f or an 16 empl oyee t o want t o be on good t erms wi t h t hat uni on. 17 And al so, usual l y, t he uni on gai ns empl oyer assi st ance 18 wi t h becomi ng an excl usi ve or wi t h r etai ni ng membershi p, 19 such as access t o f aci l i t i es -

20 J USTI CE SCALI A: But - - but i t ' s onl y peopl e 21 who - - who di sagr ee wi t h t he - - what t he uni on' s doi ng 22 who coul d r ef use t o pay, you say? Ri ght ? 23 MR. MESSENGER: Yes. I mean, anyone who 24 vol unt ar i l y -

25 J USTI CE SCALI A: Why can' t peopl e who - - who





58 1 agr ee wi t h t he uni on j ust say, hey, I don' t - - I don' t 2 have t o pay. The uni on i s goi ng t o do t hi s st uf f 3 anyway. I ' m goi ng t o r i de f or f r ee. These ot her peopl e 4 ar e r i di ng f or f r ee. 5 MR. MESSENGER: Peopl e coul d have di f f erent 6 mot i ves, but I submi t t hat t he uni on has -

7 J USTI CE SCALI A: I s t her e any - - i s t her e 8 any way t o deci de who' s doi ng i t j ust t o save money and 9 who' s doi ng i t on pr i nci pl e?

10 MR. MESSENGER: Not t hat I ' m aware of . 11 J USTI CE SCALI A: So - - so you' r e essent i al l y 12 destr oyi ng not j ust t he - - not j ust t he - - t he - - shop, 13 but you' r e dest r oyi ng t he abi l i t y of t he uni on t o - - t o 14 get money even f r om t he peopl e who don' t agr ee wi t h what 15 i t ' s doi ng. 16 MR. MESSENGER: Wel l , t wo poi nt s. Fi r st , 17 excl usi ve r epr esent at i on, I submi t , i s not an i mpedi ment 18 t o gai ni ng member shi p. I t hel ps t he uni on gai n 19 vol unt ar y suppor t f or i t . I t ' s much easi er f or a uni on 20 t o ask peopl e t o suppor t i t i f i t has power over t hei r 21 t er ms of empl oyment . So t he f r ee r i der probl em wi t h an 22 excl usi ve r epr esent at i ve i s actual l y l ess t han i t woul d 23 be i f t he uni on was a vol unt ar y or gani zat i on, not as -

24 i t doesn' t make i t wor se. I mean, t her e' s a r eason t hat 25 uni ons seek excl usi ve r epr esent at i on i n t he Feder al




59


1 gover nment , i n t he Post al Ser vi ce and t he nat i on' s 24 2 r i ght - t o- wor k St at es because i t ' s -

3 J USTI CE KAGAN: Mr . Messenger , do you doubt 4 t hat t hese - - you sai d t hat t her e wer e no r el i ance 5 i nt er est s, and - - and t hat ' s cur i ous t o me. Ther e must 6 be t housands and t housands of cont r act s acr oss t he 7 Uni t ed St at es wi t h f ai r shar e pr ovi si ons. Do you doubt 8 t hat t hese wer e cor e cent r al pr ovi si ons i n t he maki ng of 9 t hese cont r act s? That i f t hese ki nds of pr ovi si ons wer e

10 pr ohi bi t ed, t he - - t he agr eement s woul d l ook 11 f undament al l y di f f erent i n many ways? 12 MR. MESSENGER: The mai n di f f erence i s j ust 13 t he compul sor y uni oni sm cl ause i n t he agr eement woul d be 14 gone. But ot her wi se, t he agr eement s woul d be t he same. 15 J USTI CE KAGAN: You t hi nk t hat t he uni on 16 woul d - - woul d not ask f or anyt hi ng, woul d not have 17 di f f er ent - - you know, woul d not ask f or di f f er ent 18 mechani sms i n or der t o suppor t i t s own act i vi t y? The 19 uni ons go i nt o these cont r act s wi t h t he under st andi ng 20 t hat t hi s i s what ' s goi ng t o enabl e t hem t o at once 21 sat i sf y t hei r uni ver sal obl i gat i on t o empl oyees t o 22 f ai r l y repr esent t hem and al so, get t he f unds t hey need 23 f or admi ni st r at i ve and ot her expenses. 24 MR. MESSENGER: I woul d submi t t hat wi t h 25 compel l ed f ees of f t he tabl e, t he uni on woul d act ual l y





60 1 have more l everage to get t hi ngs f or empl oyees because 2 t he compel l ed f ees cl ause i s l ever aged f or t he empl oyer . 3 Because that ' s somet hi ng t he empl oyer - - or t he uni on 4 want s and t hat t he empl oyer doesn' t car e i f i t gi ves i t 5 away, because ul t i mat el y, t hat ' s money out of somebody 6 el se' s pocket . 7 J USTI CE KAGAN: So you t hi nk t hat i f we j ust 8 st r i ke t hese pr ovi si ons, i n ot her wor ds, t he - - t he 9 cont r act s woul d have been negot i ated i n exact l y t he same

10 way, not hi ng el se woul d have changed? 11 MR. MESSENGER: I f I may f i ni sh, Chi ef 12 J ust i ce. 13 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Pl ease. 14 MR. MESSENGER: I bel i eve t hat t hey pr obabl y 15 woul d be very much t he same. To t he extent t hey' d be 16 di f f er ent , t hey' d be mor e i n t he f avor of empl oyees, 17 because t he empl oyer woul dn' t have that l everage over 18 t he uni on wi t h r espect t o i t s demand f or compul sory 19 f ees. 20 CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Thank you, counsel . 21 The case i s submi t t ed. 22 ( Wher eupon, at 11: 04 a. m. , t he case i n t he 23 above- ent i t l ed mat t er was submi t t ed. ) 24 25




OOf ff fiicciiaall -- SSuub bj jeecctt ttoo R Reevviieeww

61

A adopt 50:17 35:1,15,17 8:21 14:21 B 1:20 2:9 46:14

$3.6 53:6 adopting 52:19 37:20 38:3 15:1 17:10 back 23:5 25:25

$500 33:10 advance 40:5 43:11 46:3,21 20:13,25 26:14 33:8

$7 27:11 advances 50:8 47:15 50:18 33:5 34:3,3 background

$700 33:4,10 adversary 27:3 51:3 55:11 39:13 46:14 52:17

a.m 1:14 3:2 adversary's 56:24 50:16 55:23 balance 35:1460:22 30:24 American 4:13 56:11 39:5

ability 38:6 advocating amicus 1:22 argumentation bargain 5:13

58:13 16:16 2:10 46:15 10:11 44:10,20 56:21

able 34:23 50:7 affect 43:6 51:13 amount 11:15 arises 45:22 bargaining 3:22

Abood 4:23 5:9 affirmance 27:9 31:1,3,4 arrangements 3:24 4:5 5:7,19

21:13,22 37:17 46:22 46:2 45:7 5:21 8:18

38:10,14 43:19 AFSCME 42:23 amounts 5:23 aside 11:15 18:19 19:12,21

46:19 50:5 agency 18:22 analogous 57:2 asked 22:16,19 20:2 21:16

51:8 54:5,25 19:20 33:4 annual 31:8 42:17,23 23:15 25:14,18

55:7,10 57:5 34:12 50:13,20 answer 13:23 asking 4:14 7:10 26:6,25 27:10

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Documents

SCOTUS transcript 140121