Scearce, William | (Investigation testimony)

Transcript of the Testimony of William Scearce

Date: November 6, 2013Volume: I

Case: In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

Printed On: November 13, 2013

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.Phone: 417-358-4078

Fax: 417-451-1114Email:[email protected]

Internet:

William Scearce In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

417-358-4078

Holliday Reporting Service, Inc.

Page 1

IN RE: JOPLIN CRITICAL INVESTIGATION

SWORN STATEMENT OF

WILLIAM SCEARCE

Taken on Wednesday, November 6, 2013, from 10:24 a.m. to

12:10 p.m., at the law offices of Juddson H. McPherson,

LLC, 626 S. Byers, in the City of Joplin, County of Jasper,

State of Missouri, before

SHARON K. ROGERS, C.C.R.650,

a Certified Court Reporter and a Notary Public within and

for the County of Jasper, and State of Missouri.

William Scearce

In Re: Joplin Critical Investigation

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APPEARANCES

MR. THOMAS E. LORAINE

Loraine & Associates, LLC

4075 Osage Beach Pkwy., Suite 300

Osage Beach, MO 65065

[email protected]

REPRESENTING THE WITNESS

MR. CHARLES S. GENISIO

Parrish, Cross, Genisio,

Hawkins & Coble, LLC

702 S. Pearl

Joplin, MO 64801


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S T I P U L A T I O N

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that this Sworn Statement may be

taken by steno-mask type recording by SHARON K. ROGERS, a

Certified Court Reporter, and afterwards reduced into

typewriting.

It is further stipulated that the signature of the

witness is hereby waived, and that said Sworn Statement of

said witness shall be of the same force and effect as

though said witness had read and signed Sworn Statement.


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I N D E X

Page/Line

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE . . . 5-4

E X H I B I T S

Exhibit #A. . . . . . . . 5-20

Advice of Rights

Note: Exhibits in separate binder

(sic) - typed as spoken

(ph.) - phonetic


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1 WILLIAM SCEARCE

2 Having been first duly sworn and examined,

3 testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LORAINE:

5 Q. Sir, my name is Tom Loraine. We had an

6 opportunity to visit with you and your

7 attorney who is in the room, Mr. Genisio, is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And I have a form which I normally have the

11 person that I'm interviewing read and then I

12 read it to them, then I ask them if they

13 understood what it said. In this case you've

14 got counsel sitting in this room with me and

15 I'm just going to ask counsel, has your

16 client been advised of the contents of this

17 document?

18 BY MR. GENISIO: We've discussed it,

19 yes.

20 BY MR. LORAINE: Exhibit #A?

21 BY MR. GENISIO: Yes.

22 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'm going to ask you if you

23 will sign this. I'd like to print your name

24 and then sign your name below it, date it,

25 and I'll witness it.


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1 A. (Witness complies)

2 Q. How do you pronounce your name, sir?

3 A. Scearce.

4 Q. Mr. Scearce, you have executed Exhibit #A

5 that I've handed you, is that correct?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. And it's your intent to cooperate and tell

8 the truth here today?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. You've been sworn in?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. All right. Mr. Scearce, I'm going to make a

13 note your attorney will remain in the room

14 while we do this, however this isn't a

15 situation where I'm going to be confronted

16 with objections and things of this nature.

17 Certainly if your attorney wants to make a

18 record note I don't mind that, but as a

19 practical matter according to this rights

20 thing we're here, I'm here as you know by

21 invitation from the Council, to investigate

22 two matters primarily. One is certain

23 involvement you might have or might have had

24 with a gambling, illicit gambling. And the

25 other one is a complaint about Woolston and


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1 where he might be in the redevelopment area

2 and if he has any conflicts of interest or

3 anything that's occurred out of that. There

4 are some collateral issues that will come up,

5 but I think you certainly voted to ask me to

6 do this.

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. And so I don't guess we have to explain too

9 much more. That being the case, Mr. Scearce,

10 you are now a member of the Joplin City

11 Council?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And how long have you been a member?

14 A. I was elected in 2008, re-elected in 2012.

15 Q. Now there has been an issue of illicit

16 gambling investigations raised to me and I

17 guess in the press and on the air, on a radio

18 station. I've got some articles that you've

19 said and been quoted in those articles saying

20 that you at one point owned a building and

21 somebody rented it from you and that person

22 eventually some subsequent years after you

23 were no longer their landlord was indicted

24 for gambling?

25 A. Yes, sir, I'd like to clarify the fact that I


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1 rented the building. I did not own it.

2 Q. Okay. You rented the building?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Who was the owner of the building?

5 A. Pat Hale Real Estate Company.

6 Q. What was your position?

7 A. I was the operator of a temporary employment

8 service. The name of the service was Olsten

9 and I operated it from that location with

10 offices in other surrounding towns, in

11 Pittsburg and Baxter Springs over in Kansas,

12 in Neosho and Carthage and Joplin, and Miami,

13 Oklahoma I had branch offices, but the main

14 office was in Joplin.

15 Q. What was the name of that, sir?

16 A. Olsten, O-L-S-T-E-N.

17 Q. And that was a temporary placement --

18 A. Temporary employment, sir. At one time I had

19 as many as 2,500 people working for me. It

20 was a large operation. I started the

21 business in 1991.

22 Q. And when did you no longer operate that

23 business?

24 A. It was sold, the Olsten operation was sold to

25 Adecco in the year 2000, and Adecco took over


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1 the operation at that point in time.

2 Q. Including this location?

3 A. Including the operation I had, that location

4 to rent, they assumed all the

5 responsibilities.

6 Q. Were you then subleasing that for your

7 purposes, that building?

8 A. I was just leasing it from Pat Hale.

9 Q. Did you work for Pat?

10 A. No, I worked for Olsten Temporary Employment

11 Service. I just rented it from him just as

12 if I rented a store front from anyone else.

13 Q. But my point was when you leased to this

14 fellow that ran the gambling operation was

15 that a sublease of your lease?

16 A. No, it was just a lease. He just used it.

17 There was no signed lease.

18 Q. I see. So technically it was still under

19 your lease?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. What was the man that ran the gambling

22 operation's name?

23 A. Kenny Lovett.

24 Q. And Kenny Lovett was subsequently indicted by

25 the Federal Bureau of Investigations, U.S.


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1 Attorney's Office in what year to the best of

2 your recollection?

3 A. 2011.

4 Q. And then is he doing time now?

5 A. No, he pled guilty and I think his judgment

6 was he was confined to his home at least the

7 way they reported in the newspaper was for a

8 period of time and had to pay a fine, and I

9 think he had to not go into any gambling

10 facilities anywhere. Then I think he's

11 finished. He's out. He never did any jail

12 time according to the reports in the paper.

13 Q. Do you still know Kenny Lovett?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Do you know how I can get hold of him?

16 A. Call him on the phone.

17 Q. Do you have a phone number?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can you provide me with one?

20 A. May be able to.

21 Q. Would you have your attorney give me a call

22 on my cell number? I'd like to have

23 opportunity to talk with him if he, in fact,

24 will talk with me. I'll ask you if you can

25 try to get that number for me.


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. My understanding is you've read an article in

3 the paper what Ken Lovett said about your

4 renting situation with him. What was that

5 article? What did it say?

6 A. I didn't read an article in the paper about

7 that. He called me.

8 Q. Oh, Mr. Lovett called you?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. What did he tell you?

11 A. He told me he had a telephone call from Carol

12 Stark who is the Editor of the Joplin Globe

13 and that Mrs. Stark asked him if I knew he

14 was going to use that building for gambling

15 when I rented it to him, and he told me that

16 he told her no.

17 Q. And is that true that you did not know?

18 A. At the time when he rented it I did not. I

19 found out later that he did.

20 Q. So what year was it that he rented this

21 building from you?

22 A. 1991 to 1995 or 1996.

23 Q. During that period of time you said

24 subsequent after he rented this building some

25 time after that you found out that he was


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1 running an illegal gambling operation? How

2 long after your rent?

3 A. Not very long.

4 Q. Well, months, days, years?

5 A. Months. Maybe weeks. It was very active

6 over there.

7 Q. So weeks after 1991 you learned that there

8 was some kind of gambling operation going on?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. Is that what we call bookmaking?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Did you participate in the bookmaking?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Did you know of any policemen that worked for

15 the City that actually participated in that

16 gambling?

17 A. I couldn't swear one way or the other, but my

18 best guess is probably yes.

19 Q. Not interested in your guess, I'm interested

20 in anything you know.

21 A. I couldn't say yes or no.

22 Q. So you had never personally seen it?

23 A. Well, I was busy getting my business started

24 and I had very little time. I was trying to

25 start a brand new business and quite honestly


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1 I was more interested in that than what was

2 going on in the building next door. It is a

3 freestanding building. I mean it stands on

4 the lot, it's a freestanding building. I

5 knew that there was gambling going on over

6 there, certainly. I mean if you looked

7 around you could certainly tell it.

8 Q. But you, yourself, did not participate in

9 that gambling at that location?

10 A. No, sir, I did not, no.

11 Q. It's my understanding I read an article

12 somewhere somehow you talked with an attorney

13 about your --

14 A. I called the --

15 Q. Let me finish my question.

16 A. Okay. Sorry.

17 Q. You talked with an attorney about your

18 knowledge of this gambling operation, is that

19 right?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Can you tell me who that was?

22 A. No, sir, I cannot even remember. My guess is

23 that attorney - Olsten exists no more. They

24 were absorbed by Adecco when Adecco came in.

25 Q. Olsten was your company?


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And did this attorney work for the Olsten

3 company?

4 A. Yes, sir, he was an attorney with specialty

5 in personnel.

6 Q. And you met with this attorney?

7 A. No, sir, I talked to him on the phone.

8 Q. And what was your purpose in talking with the

9 attorney?

10 A. I said, "I've got some gambling going on next

11 door. What should I do about it?" He said,

12 "Don't do anything. Just stay away."

13 Q. And did you do that?

14 A. Yes, sir. I will say Mr. Lovett used my

15 restroom occasionally. Other than that we

16 had no contact.

17 Q. Was there a restroom in that building?

18 A. No, sir, there wasn't. The building was

19 about half the size of this room.

20 Q. From a practical standpoint we're talking

21 about what we would almost describe as a

22 cabin of some sort, small?

23 A. It was a small room that was at one time used

24 as an office for a car lot that was on the

25 property.


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1 Q. But there was no restroom in that building?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Where did the people that participated in the

4 gambling, where did they go to the restroom?

5 Would they use your other facility?

6 A. No, it was not - I would assume that they

7 just went and placed their bets either by

8 telephone - most of it I would assume would

9 have been by telephone.

10 Q. So there wasn't --

11 A. Gambling on the side.

12 Q. No gambling on the side?

13 A. No, other than just I want to place a bet on

14 a football game.

15 Q. And that was some time in 1991 that you

16 learned about that, had a discussion with the

17 attorney, and he told you to forget it?

18 A. Yes, sir, he said just forget it, stay away.

19 I asked him it's a freestanding building. He

20 said is it attached to your building and I

21 said no and he said just forget it.

22 Q. Is that the extent of your participation in

23 this gambling?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. You said you had locations for the company


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1 you were starting up in a lot of different

2 areas and in several states, is that right?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Was there gambling in any of those

5 facilities?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Because the gambling operation is alleged to

8 have been multi-state gambling, you don't

9 know anything about that, do you?

10 A. I have got no idea about anything that

11 happened anyplace in any other location, no.

12 Q. Did the FBI talk with you about this gambling

13 operation?

14 A. Yes, they interviewed me, and I'm going to

15 have to guess on dates, okay?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. They interviewed me, the head FBI agent and a

18 gentleman who was a liaison officer with the

19 Joplin Police Department to the FBI

20 interviewed me at my office and they asked me

21 did I rent the room to Kenny Lovett and I

22 said yes. And they asked me if I was

23 involved with Kenny Lovett as a partner or as

24 a gambler and I said no. And that is the

25 honest truth.


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1 Q. And that's the extent of the --

2 A. No, we talked about many things other than

3 that. We talked about how big the gambling

4 was, and I had no idea the gambling was as

5 large as it is. They asked me about any

6 other gamblers that I knew, and I did not

7 know that this Bill Lyle was associated with

8 Kenny Lovett at that point in time. Later

9 found out by newspaper articles that he was,

10 but I never saw him over there.

11 Q. Did you know that there was an officer of the

12 Police Department named James, I think, that

13 subsequently lost his job over gambling at

14 that location?

15 A. You're talking about Geoff Jones?

16 Q. Jones.

17 A. Geoff Jones?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Did I know that?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes, I know that.

22 Q. Did you know that he was actually visiting

23 the site?

24 A. I never saw Geoff Jones there.

25 Q. So you just learned that from the newspaper?


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1 A. I know him. I know him, but I never saw him

2 there.

3 Q. Did you in any way participate with Geoff

4 Jones in gambling at that site?

5 A. No, I didn't gamble at all at that site. I

6 didn't gamble at all.

7 Q. You're not a gambler?

8 A. No, sir, not right now.

9 Q. Have you ever been?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. When did you gamble?

12 A. Back when I owned an Army surplus store.

13 Q. When was that?

14 A. '78.

15 Q. Okay. Was that just a source of

16 entertainment for you?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. There's been some discussion, and I'm going

19 to show you what's been previously marked as

20 Exhibit #1 in a different statement, and ask

21 you have you ever seen anything like that

22 document?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. You didn't hesitate when you saw it. You

25 recognized it right away?


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And what is Exhibit #1 a copy of?

3 A. It's a blown up copy of a note that I became

4 aware of that was presented to me that has

5 some names on it.

6 Q. Is your name on it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Carol Stark's name is on there?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And there's a date on there?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. What is the date?

13 A. August the 12th of 2013.

14 Q. Is there anything significant about that

15 date?

16 A. Yes, sir, that is two days prior to the

17 telephone call that I received from Kenny

18 Lovett.

19 Q. At that time Carol Stark did call him and

20 asked if you had any involvement?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. What else happened on or around that time?

23 Any newspaper articles come out?

24 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. They

25 may have. I know that when I look at this


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1 it's a blown up copy.

2 Q. Right. Who presented that to you?

3 A. City Attorney.

4 Q. And that's Mr. Head?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. When did Mr. Head give you that?

7 A. I don't remember the date.

8 Q. Well, obviously --

9 A. It was obviously after this date. Obviously

10 after the 14th because when I recognized the

11 date of August the 12th I recognized that was

12 the date two days after, two days prior to

13 the telephone call of Mr. Lovett. Carol

14 Stark called him that afternoon and then he

15 called me that evening at home.

16 Q. Do you know whose handwriting is on that

17 note?

18 A. It appears to be the handwriting of the City

19 Manager.

20 Q. Do you recognize that yourself?

21 A. Well, I said appears to be. I'm not a

22 handwriting expert, but it does appear to be

23 his handwriting. I have seen his handwriting

24 obviously being a City Councilman.

25 Q. And prior to today you had made the


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1 conclusion that it was the City Manager's

2 handwriting?

3 A. Oh, yes. Yes, when I saw the - this is much

4 larger than the one I saw. The one I saw was

5 a --

6 Q. Sticky note.

7 A. Yeah, a yellow sticky note that people use

8 all the time.

9 Q. And at the time that you saw the note

10 originally when the City Attorney handed it

11 to you were you able to identify that it was

12 the City Manager's handwriting then?

13 A. I thought it was his handwriting. It appears

14 to be his handwriting.

15 Q. And that was your opinion then and it's still

16 your opinion?

17 A. Still my opinion.

18 Q. Several lines down there it has, "Continuing

19 criminal activity" or something like that?

20 A. "Contributing to a criminal activity". There

21 is something up here written and I don't know

22 what any of these other - I don't know what

23 this means and I don't know what that is

24 there (indicating). There is this FBI

25 written in here.


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1 Q. In what context did Mr. Head give you this

2 note?

3 A. It had the FBI on it. He gave it to me and

4 said that it was found in a public location

5 at City Hall by an individual who wished to

6 remain anonymous, although I know the name of

7 the individual.

8 Q. You do know?

9 A. Yes, sir, I do.

10 Q. Well, let me ask you this question. Is there

11 any reason why I should know that name? I

12 mean I don't see to make that public, do you?

13 A. You don't want to make it public?

14 Q. I don't think so.

15 A. The name of the person is Becky Brill.

16 Q. Now it will be public.

17 A. Well, I mean I would hate - Becky Brill asked

18 that it not be made public because she is

19 afraid of retaliation on her family. She

20 does not live here anymore. She doesn't work

21 for the City. She did at the time. She is

22 afraid of, this is what she has said, she is

23 afraid of retaliation by the City Manager

24 against members of her family. And that's a

25 shame because one should not be afraid.


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1 Q. All right. The City Manager being --

2 A. Mr. Rohr.

3 Q. -- Mr. Rohr. So this individual, Brill,

4 found this in a public place and gave it to

5 Attorney Head, is that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And then Mr. Head at a meeting gave this to

8 you?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. And who else attended that meeting?

11 A. No one but he and I.

12 Q. Why did he know that this concerned you?

13 A. This was during a period of time when I had

14 been talking to him about and giving him the

15 same information I'm giving you about the FBI

16 investigation.

17 Q. So the attorney had several years ago - when

18 was this given to you, what date?

19 A. Some time after August the 12th.

20 Q. Of 2013?

21 A. 2013, yes.

22 Q. So as of at least that time Attorney Head has

23 previous discussions with you concerning this

24 gambling charge that you're facing?

25 A. I'm not facing a gambling charge.


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1 Q. Well, you are at the City.

2 A. Well, I didn't gamble.

3 Q. But in any case that was the time period that

4 you had talked with Attorney Head prior to

5 receiving this note?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. So that's why Attorney Head knew that this

8 was concerning you, this note?

9 A. Yes, sir. There also was another statement

10 that he was privy to people being told that

11 Mr. Rohr had stated in front of employees of

12 the City that if Scearce, and I'll quote, "If

13 Scearce ever came after me I'm going to use

14 the gambling against him and take him down."

15 Q. So that statement came about prior to you

16 receiving this note?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And this note is what you probably believe

19 that, at least this note seems to indicate

20 that the attorney for the City Manager had

21 this information contained on this note at

22 the time that he made that statement? Did

23 you understand the question?

24 A. No.

25 Q. My question is, let me go back, my question


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1 is I'm trying to get why City Attorney Head

2 would bring this matter to you, why he would

3 know that this note was about you. That's

4 what I'm trying to get at.

5 A. Because we had discussed the FBI report

6 previously and we had discussed my interview

7 with the FBI previously and we had discussed

8 the name of the gentleman who was the

9 gambler, and it's my belief that when he saw

10 FBI, Lovett, Carol Stark, that he believes

11 that would involve me.

12 Q. Okay. That's how it happened?

13 A. My belief.

14 Q. All right. So nobody surreptitiously stole

15 this off --

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. -- of the desk of the City Manager?

18 A. No, sir. Would you like for me to expand on

19 that?

20 Q. Sure.

21 A. This note was found according to the lady who

22 found it in front of the elevator in the

23 public area on the second floor of City Hall.

24 Q. Is there a restroom there?

25 A. Yes, sir, there's a men's and a women's


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1 restroom there.

2 Q. And it was on the floor?

3 A. It was on the floor.

4 Q. Have you, yourself, talked with Becky?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So that information came to you through --

7 A. Mr. Head.

8 Q. -- Attorney Head.

9 A. Can I expand on that?

10 Q. Certainly.

11 A. Ms. Brill was an employee of the City of

12 Joplin. I as a Council member felt it was

13 inappropriate for me to have any discussion

14 with her until such time that she is no

15 longer an employee of the City of Joplin.

16 She has left town and I have not talked to

17 her since. She lives in Arkansas. I would

18 like to explain something else. I am a

19 former City employee. I used to be the Parks

20 and Recreation Director and I understand as a

21 Council member the difference between Council

22 members and employee and how people should

23 never cross the line, and I don't cross the

24 line ever because I've been on both sides of

25 it.


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1 Q. Do you believe that the retaliation that she

2 suggested is possible given the fact that

3 there is a separate Police Chief I guess

4 under the City Manager? Do you think that's

5 a possibility?

6 A. That the police would retaliate against her?

7 I don't know. I would certainly hope not. I

8 respect Lane Roberts. I can't tell you what

9 her theory is because she never expressed it

10 to me. But there was genuine fear I am sure.

11 Q. Do you know anyone else that is in a state of

12 possible fear from the City Manager? Has

13 that concept come to your attention before?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. How is that?

16 A. Many employees of the City of Joplin are

17 scared to death of their jobs if they speak

18 out against actions that Mr. Rohr takes.

19 Q. And you know that as a Councilman?

20 A. That is rumor that has been spread and you

21 have to understand that I was one of the

22 individuals who voted to discharge Mr. Rohr

23 for that very reason. That's one of many

24 reasons why I voted to discharge him.

25 Q. How many people voted to discharge him?


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1 A. Originally five, and then one of them changed

2 their mind.

3 Q. And how many did it take?

4 A. Five.

5 BY MR. GENISIO: I think it was four.

6 A. Four. Can I expand on that?

7 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Sure.

8 A. If you'll bear with.

9 Q. Absolutely.

10 A. There were five Council members that went

11 into a closed door session who had committed

12 to discharge or to ask for Mr. Rohr's

13 resignation. If he didn't give it then a

14 resolution of discharge would be passed and

15 he would be discharged. During that meeting

16 one of the members indicated, it was the

17 Mayor and this is in the paper, it's not

18 news, that she was going to change her vote.

19 Q. Is that the present Mayor?

20 A. Present Mayor. Then we went about leaving

21 the meeting after a lot of discussion and

22 later that night the Mayor called me on the

23 phone at home and said she had been praying

24 about the vote and that she was going to

25 change her mind and vote to discharge Mr.


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1 Rohr. Would I meet with her and Mr. Rohr on

2 Wednesday. This was on a Monday evening. We

3 met on Wednesday morning at her office in

4 City Hall and she told Mr. Rohr that she had

5 changed her mind, she was voting to ask for

6 his resignation. He said no. And then there

7 was quite a bit of discussion and she

8 eventually after all the discussion said, no,

9 I'm going to change my mind again. So at that

10 point in time we decided that we would hold

11 another meeting of the Council to go through

12 a way that we could get - Mr. Rohr's main

13 concern was that he had never received any

14 direction from the Council on how he should

15 perform his job. It is my opinion that Mr.

16 Rohr has been in the business long enough

17 that he knows how to perform his job. He

18 doesn't need micromanagement by members of

19 the City Council.

20 Q. Is it your opinion that he does not properly

21 discharge his duties?

22 A. It is my opinion that Mr. Rohr does discharge

23 his duties. I think he improperly discharges

24 his duties.

25 Q. Can you tell me why?


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1 A. Why? Because he never allows anybody to have

2 any disagreements with him. I've been on the

3 Council for six years when he's been there

4 and not once has Mr. Rohr ever admitted that

5 he made a mistake, it's always somebody

6 else's fault. I also believe that he does

7 operate with fear and intimidation. He

8 should be the individual who administers the

9 policy and we as a Council should be the

10 policy makers. Mr. Rohr crosses that line

11 all the time. He thinks that we are not his

12 boss. If he doesn't want to do something he

13 just doesn't do it. Even after the Council

14 directs him to do it.

15 Q. Has there been any further efforts to

16 discharge him after that initial vote?

17 A. Absolutely not.

18 Q. Do you know why the Mayor, present Mayor,

19 changed her vote a couple of times?

20 A. You'll have to ask her.

21 Q. Oh, I probably will do that. Let me ask you,

22 is there any way that the City Manager could,

23 in fact, have threatened her?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. You've not heard anything like that?


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1 A. I've not heard anything like that. I can

2 give you some speculation.

3 Q. Give me the speculation.

4 A. The Mayor started a new restaurant and in

5 that restaurant she borrowed money from the

6 Chamber of Commerce that has a $300,000.00

7 contract with the City to provide economic

8 development. That may or may not be a threat

9 to her. I don't know. She says it's not.

10 Q. Does the City give money to that Chamber of

11 Commerce who then loans money out? Is that

12 my understanding?

13 A. It was not that money that was loaned to her,

14 it was different money from a different

15 source.

16 Q. But it still, the City does --

17 A. We give money to the Chamber of Commerce to

18 do economic development for us.

19 Q. And then that Chamber of Commerce loans that

20 money out?

21 A. They loan it out, they use it to perform

22 economic development.

23 Q. And the Mayor has that loan?

24 A. No, the Mayor has a loan from a different

25 location, different money.


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1 Q. But it's still from the Chamber of Commerce?

2 A. Still from the Chamber of Commerce. Not from

3 the Chamber of Commerce, but from trusts that

4 the Chamber of Commerce administers.

5 Q. Different money definitely than the City

6 funds?

7 A. Absolutely. No doubt about that.

8 Q. Buy there is a direct correlation, I mean

9 there seems to be a natural correlation in my

10 mind that I could see where someone would

11 believe that the City Manager had some

12 control of that. Do you agree with that?

13 A. No, he doesn't have any control over that

14 money at all.

15 Q. So that would not be the reason that --

16 A. Probably not. All I give you is speculation,

17 not fact.

18 Q. Have you had other employees or are you aware

19 of any other employees that fear the City

20 Manager?

21 A. Am I aware of it? Indirectly I am.

22 Q. What other employees?

23 A. The Parks and Recreation Director.

24 Q. Who is that?

25 A. Chris Cotten.


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1 Q. Is Chris Cotten the present?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Anybody else?

4 A. Do you want me to expand on how I know that?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. I read from a female, from a law firm at my

7 current location, the wife of the lawyer was

8 at a time a member of the Parks and

9 Recreation Board. The Parks and Recreation

10 Board on its own wrote a letter to the City

11 Council. I don't have the letter, but it

12 doesn't matter. The contents said we need

13 other things to be done. I was told by this

14 lady, her name is Dawn Sticklen, that Chris

15 Cotten was almost fired was the word that she

16 used because the City Manager thought he

17 allowed the Parks and Recreation Board to

18 write a letter when he had nothing to do with

19 it.

20 Q. When the City Manager didn't know about it?

21 A. When the City Manager didn't know about it.

22 And Chris didn't know about it.

23 BY MR. GENISIO: Yeah, I think that's

24 the point.

25 A. Chris didn't know about it either. That I


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1 know of specifically. That is a direct - and

2 you can talk to Mrs. Sticklen, I've got her

3 phone number if you'd like to have it.

4 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Have you got it now?

5 A. I sure do. Hold on a minute and I can get it

6 here. There it is, 437-5057.

7 Q. Would she come in and talk with me? Is she

8 presently a City employee?

9 A. No, she was never a City employee. She was a

10 member of the Advisory Board, the Parks and

11 Recreation Advisory Board.

12 Q. Do you think she would talk with me?

13 A. About that?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. I think so. She's a current member of the

16 School Board, but she would probably talk to

17 you about that.

18 Q. Anyone else that you know that works for the

19 City that feels threatened in some fashion by

20 the City Manager?

21 A. Directly?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Anybody indirectly?

25 A. Yes.


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1 Q. Who is that?

2 A. Of course I think that Brian Head feels

3 threatened by the City Manager. I feel that

4 Barbara Hogelin feels threatened by the City

5 Manager. There are a number of employees who

6 have left the employment of the City for

7 reasons of whatever they may be who were

8 probably threatened.

9 Q. Who would some of those names be?

10 A. Steve Cope, an individual that was the head

11 building inspector. Jack Schaller.

12 BY MR. GENISIO: Schaller,

13 S-C-H-A-L-L-E-R.

14 A. Jack Schaller, S-C-H-A-L-L-E-R.

15 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Do you have phone numbers

16 for any of those folks?

17 A. No, not for either one of them.

18 Q. Can you get me some, get me phone numbers?

19 A. I'll give you a try.

20 Q. Why don't we try that.

21 A. I will. Jack currently operates a - he left

22 employment to go into business with another

23 company. I don't know whether or not he

24 would say that he was threatened by Mark

25 because he wants contracts with the City, and


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1 if he does there's a good chance he won't get

2 them. Whether he'll tell you that or not, I

3 don't know. And also I don't know how Leslie

4 Jones, I don't know what her name is, Haase,

5 feels threatened or not.

6 Q. Who is that?

7 A. She's the Finance Director.

8 Q. What's her last name?

9 BY MR. GENISIO: H-A-A-S-E.

10 A. H-A-A-S-E. And I am told that she was one of

11 the individuals who heard Mark make the

12 threat against me that if I ever came after

13 him he would - he bragged about it.

14 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) And that's the threat that

15 he would take you down because of this

16 gambling note?

17 A. Well, that's the threat because of the - I

18 was interviewed by the FBI, I wasn't

19 questioned, and there is a difference. You

20 as an attorney probably know that.

21 Q. You don't think you were a target of the

22 investigation?

23 A. Oh, no, I was an information provider of the

24 investigation. I think that what's the guy's

25 name from Seneca?


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1 Q. Former City Police Chief?

2 A. No, former City police officer who was a

3 liaison officer with the FBI. What was his

4 name?

5 BY MR. GENISIO: James Altic.

6 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) You're going to get me a

7 phone number for him?

8 A. Yes, Seneca Police Chief. We can write that

9 down and get you the phone number, yes, sir.

10 Q. James Altic.

11 A. He was there at every interview I had with

12 the FBI.

13 Q. Would he be under the control in any way of

14 Lane Roberts in that situation?

15 A. Not now. Would have when he - he was a

16 Joplin police officer.

17 Q. Would he talk to me about your interviews?

18 A. I would imagine he would. I don't see any

19 reason why he wouldn't. I mean you'd have to

20 ask him. He's a nice guy, though.

21 Q. Will make that contact. The more the better.

22 I was not given a mandate particularly to

23 investigate the City Manager's abusive

24 nature, per se, but it has now come up, and

25 I'm going to pursue that. Is there any other


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1 indications that you can give me of this kind

2 of, I don't know what it's called other than

3 an abusive situation?

4 A. During the storm I had become aware of a

5 situation that I would like to explain. The

6 City Manager had his secretary, who is a very

7 nice lady, call the Goodyear store in Joplin

8 and ask if he could come down and get his

9 tires fixed because he'd been working the

10 storm. The gentleman in charge said you can

11 come down and get in line and I've got a lot

12 of customers here. And I have talked to that

13 gentleman. He runs the Goodyear store at

14 20th and Range Line in Joplin and he will

15 talk to you because I have interviewed him

16 and asked him if he would talk to the

17 investigator.

18 Q. What's his name?

19 BY MR. GENISIO: Is it Rick?

20 A. Rick.

21 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Rick?

22 A. Rick. He is the manager of the store.

23 Q. Do you know his last name?

24 A. You would have to ask.

25 Q. If you have a phone number and a name would


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1 be handy. What would he tell me?

2 A. He would tell you that the City Manager

3 called him, the secretary called him - I'll

4 tell you what he told me. The secretary

5 called him and asked if the City Manager

6 could come down and get his tire fixed real

7 quick and he said I have customers waiting

8 here, he'll have to get in line. She said

9 thank you and hung up. A few minutes later

10 he was called by Mr. Rohr and asked by Mr.

11 Rohr if he could come down and get his tires

12 fixed and said I don't put people in front of

13 other people. I've got 20 people sitting

14 here, you're welcome to come down and ask any

15 of them if you can break in line in front of

16 them and if they'll let you I'll fix your

17 tires. Mr. Rohr hung up. I am told, it's

18 not a fact, I am told that Mr. Rohr went to

19 the Finance Director, because you can ask

20 her, and told her stop buying tires from

21 Goodyear.

22 BY MR. GENISIO: Meaning the City?

23 A. The City to stop buying tires from Goodyear.

24 And I asked Rick if they had sold anything to

25 the City after that event and he said no.


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1 I'll have to find out his name, but he will

2 talk to you.

3 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) And this Finance Director

4 --

5 A. Leslie Haase.

6 Q. Did Leslie tell you that?

7 A. Did Leslie tell me that? No.

8 Q. How do you know that then?

9 A. How do I know that? Who told me that? I

10 don't remember, but if I get a name I will

11 call you. If I remember it - I will rack my

12 brain to try to. I'll call Charles.

13 Q. All right.

14 BY MR. LORAINE: Is that okay,

15 Charlie? Do you want to make a note of that?

16 BY MR. GENISIO: Yes.

17 A. I'll try to think who told me that.

18 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) I'll probably be in touch

19 with Charles. Anything else along those

20 lines you can think of?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Apparently there's some bad feelings between

23 you and the City Manager for a number of

24 different reasons that you pointed out here?

25 A. Yes, sir, a number of different reasons.


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1 I've been associated with City Managers since

2 I got out of college in 1963 and I have never

3 in my career found a City Manager who was

4 more egotistical, more self-driving, more of

5 a bully and an intimidator than Mr. Rohr is.

6 Q. I guess that's why you've taken the steps

7 that you've attempted?

8 A. That is one of the reasons that I wanted to

9 fire him. In addition to the fact that he

10 doesn't understand the difference between

11 policy and administration.

12 Q. There's been some discussion about this firm

13 Bajjali.

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. They stand to gain some maybe 80 million

16 dollars or so if all the projects that they

17 suggest come to fruition?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. I've heard that there's been some discussion

20 about them at the various City Council

21 meetings. What has been your experience on

22 that realm? Do you have any negative

23 comments about them?

24 A. Yes, sir, I do.

25 Q. Can you give me those?


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1 A. We've had a contract with David Wallace for a

2 year or longer. Actually it's been longer

3 than a year. David Wallace to this date has

4 not turned one spade of dirt. And all the

5 development that's taken place in Joplin has

6 taken place in the private sector without any

7 tax incentives from Joplin. We have a senior

8 housing project that's going on right now

9 that's on the drawing boards of which 35

10 percent of the equity in the project is

11 public funds. I voted against it because I

12 find that to be excessive. That's too much

13 public in the public/private partnership.

14 Last minute decisions that just have to be

15 made at that point in time without knowledge

16 of what's going on happens all the time.

17 Q. Is that last minute decisions by the City

18 Manager or by Wallace-Bajjali?

19 A. Wallace-Bajjali and the City Manager, both.

20 We are never informed until the last minute.

21 Q. I've understood that you have talked with the

22 City Manager about the City Attorney's

23 involvement or lack of involvement in the

24 Bajjali project?

25 A. Yes, sir, I have.


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1 Q. And can you tell me something about that?

2 A. Yes, sir, I believe that if you go into a

3 contract negotiation without your attorney

4 you're a fool. The City Manager negotiated

5 all the contracts or had done that with

6 Wallace-Bajjali without the attorney present.

7 Still continues to try to cut the attorney

8 out of the situation primarily because he

9 would like to do things that the City

10 Attorney might find objectionable, and by

11 going ahead and doing them we as a Council

12 get put in the position where we have to make

13 a choice or not doing it or going along with

14 whatever is there. One of the examples I

15 will cite for you is the contract, the

16 initial contract that we've had with David

17 Wallace that provides him with 5.75 percent

18 of a real estate fee at the time property is

19 bought, and then another 5.75 percent at the

20 time the property is sold even though he may

21 be the buyer. That is in my mind 11.5

22 percent excessive in terms of real estate

23 fees. They're normally in the 6 percent

24 range. The other is the contract, the

25 buy-out contract which was 5 million dollars


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1 without costs for the first year, declining

2 to nothing at the end. I don't know why that

3 was there other than the fact that if you

4 just want to get rid of them you've going to

5 have to pay to get rid of them. That

6 contract was either a take it or leave it.

7 The City Manager negotiated that contract

8 without the attorney and I just think that's

9 being foolish. I mean he's not an attorney.

10 I'm sure that Mr. Wallace would not sign a

11 contract without his attorney looking at it,

12 but we have to sign a contract without our

13 attorney looking at it. That should be our

14 policy. That should be the policy decision

15 we make. And yet I did require - the Mayor

16 and I asked that Mr. Head be involved in all

17 meetings where Mr. Wallace and Mr. Rohr were

18 together. I guess my question is, if I'm

19 being criticized for feeling that way I don't

20 understand why.

21 Q. Has Mr. Head complained about his inability

22 to get to these contract negotiation

23 sessions?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. That's been a longstanding complaint?


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. So you think the results are negative for the

3 City without having the attorney there?

4 A. I think the City can be put in danger and at

5 risk without having legal advice on any

6 contract you sign.

7 Q. Doesn't the board have the opportunity to

8 have the contract reviewed? Or you're saying

9 during the terms of the contract the attorney

10 should be there?

11 A. During the time while the contract is being

12 developed the attorney should be there from

13 the very start, yes, sir, I believe that.

14 That is one of the conflicts I've had with

15 Mr. Rohr. He does not want the attorney

16 there because there may be questions raised

17 that he might be objecting to.

18 Q. It's a guy's job, isn't it?

19 A. What?

20 Q. It's the City Attorney's job?

21 A. It's the City Attorney's job. He should be -

22 that's his job. He's there to protect the

23 City and if he's not invited into meetings he

24 can't protect the City.

25 Q. The City Attorney in this form of government,


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1 don't they both, the City Manager and the

2 City Attorney, work directly for the Council?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And there's a contract, isn't there?

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. Have you put it in his contract that he needs

7 to keep the City Attorney advised?

8 A. No, but he's been directed to do that.

9 Q. Have you directed him to do that in writing?

10 A. No, sir.

11 Q. Just in notes, in City meetings?

12 A. Direct orders from members of the Council.

13 Q. Individually or as a Council is what I'm

14 saying?

15 A. I don't remember if the Council was ever

16 discussed as a Council, but we certainly

17 should if we haven't.

18 Q. Yes, you should, and you probably ought to

19 pass some sort of ordinance or vote,

20 resolution, whatever is appropriate there.

21 If you expect him to follow the law you ought

22 to probably lay the law down. As an

23 individual you probably don't have any

24 authority over him, but certainly as a

25 Council you do.


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1 A. That is correct, we certainly should. And

2 that's our fault.

3 Q. Is there a complaint among the majority of

4 the Council against Bajjali's inaction?

5 A. I don't know. There are some members of the

6 Council, I don't know whether it's a majority

7 or not, that feel that the inaction is

8 inexcusable.

9 Q. More than you is what you're saying?

10 A. More than me. All we've done is buy property

11 and make money on it.

12 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any money being

13 passed back from Bajjali to the City Manager?

14 A. No, I don't believe that the City Manager - I

15 don't believe he's a dishonest person.

16 Q. Who works for Wallace-Bajjali that would be a

17 possible source of somebody I could talk with

18 other than Mr. Bajjali and Mr. Wallace?

19 A. They have two employees in town.

20 Q. Who are they?

21 A. Bruce Anderson.

22 Q. Bruce?

23 A. Bruce. Gary Box.

24 Q. Gary Box?

25 A. Uh-huh.


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1 Q. B-O-X?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 Q. Do you have phone numbers for those guys?

4 A. I have one for Gary.

5 Q. Who is senior in that group?

6 A. I don't know what the status of their - I

7 mean I don't know the internal workings of

8 their department. I mean I really don't know

9 who is the guy in charge over there. Gary

10 Box. Well, let me put on my glasses so I can

11 see. 434-3351.

12 Q. Before I assume the City had let out a bid

13 for tire purchasing from Goodyear?

14 A. I think that the City was operating off the

15 state bid.

16 Q. And Goodyear would comply to that?

17 A. I think.

18 Q. In any case the City was buying tires from

19 Goodyear before?

20 A. That's what I'm told.

21 Q. And you think Leslie Haase will confirm that?

22 A. I don't know what she'll confirm. I just

23 know what Rick told me.

24 Q. Leslie Haase works for the City

25 Administrator?


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And you've mentioned her as someone that has

3 some fear of him?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Has Leslie expressed that fear to you?

6 A. Not to me. I make it very clear that I don't

7 --

8 Q. How have you heard that?

9 A. I've heard it through people who know her.

10 Q. Can you give me any names?

11 A. Okay. You do need to talk to a Council

12 member that has a lot more information than I

13 do about that, Jack Golden.

14 Q. Jack Golden?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. I've got him scheduled.

17 A. He may have knowledge that I don't have.

18 He's a more recent City employee.

19 Q. Has he worked under --

20 A. No.

21 Q. -- the present City Manager?

22 A. No, he worked under the previous City

23 Manager.

24 Q. Is there a discharge provision for City

25 Manager?


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1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. What does the contract read? Does it have to

3 be for cause?

4 A. What does the contract read? It has to be

5 for cause. If it's not for cause then we

6 give him 6 months pay plus benefits.

7 Q. For 6 months?

8 A. 6 months.

9 Q. Isn't that the cost of doing business?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. So I mean you still need a majority, though?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Obviously you were willing to do that in your

14 attempt to impeach him?

15 A. I'm willing to do it today.

16 Q. Who else on the Council should I talk with in

17 your opinion?

18 A. Well, I don't know. Probably ought to talk

19 to all of them.

20 Q. Who is the doctor?

21 A. Rosenberg, Benjamin Rosenberg.

22 Q. Should I talk with him?

23 A. Yes, sir. He's a dentist.

24 Q. Is he still an active dentist?

25 A. Yes, sir, pediatric dentist.


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1 Q. How old is Dr. Rosenberg?

2 A. 74.

3 BY MR. GENISIO: Old enough to have

4 done my teeth.

5 A. He's really good. He's the best - I mean he

6 works the hardest and quickest dentist I've

7 ever seen.

8 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Give me your assessment of

9 the line-up of the Council. Some are

10 Woolston supporters and some are Scearce

11 supporters.

12 A. Well, I guess you could say that. I don't

13 know that is the case. It's probably some

14 believe in the way that Woolston wants to

15 operate and others believe in the way that

16 Scearce wasn't to operate.

17 Q. Let's do that. Tell me how that division

18 breaks down.

19 A. That division breaks down of course Scearce

20 is one of those, Rosenberg is one of those.

21 Q. Rosenberg is on Scearce side. Let's run

22 through that.

23 A. Okay. Golden, Raney, and I don't know how

24 the Mayor feels, but put the Mayor down on

25 that side.


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1 Q. And that's?

2 A. Colbert-Kean. Just put Colbert or just put

3 Mayor, whatever you want to. Then you have

4 on the other side there's Seibert, Woolston,

5 and Glaze. And there's one more. You've got

6 Shaw. Nobody knows where he's going to come

7 in.

8 Q. Shelton?

9 A. Shaw, S-H-A-W, Shaw. Shaw is a little bit

10 compromised. He is a minister. He was Mr.

11 Rohr's counselor during his marriage

12 problems.

13 Q. Did he vote on the attempt to impeach?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. How did he vote?

16 A. Not to. The vote was 5 to 4. There it is

17 right there. Actually the vote was not 5 to

18 4. I take that back.

19 Q. I understand. It was changed.

20 A. It was 4 to 3 to 2. 2 people didn't vote.

21 Q. Who were the 2?

22 A. Mr. Glaze didn't vote and the Mayor didn't

23 vote. And the Mayor didn't vote.

24 Q. Uh-huh. That's your stuff?

25 A. This is mine.


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1 Q. Well, is there anything else that is kind of

2 hanging around in your mind that I ought to

3 take a look at while I'm looking at stuff?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. What is that?

6 A. We have a program called the Commons. It's a

7 40 million dollar project. The location has

8 not been made public. It is my belief that

9 Mr. Woolston and his partner will start

10 buying property in the Commons area, trying

11 to turn it into a profit, just like he did in

12 the area of 20th and Connecticut.

13 Q. Who is Mr. Woolston's partner?

14 A. Charlie Kuehn. Four State Homes is the name

15 of his company. Let me tell you how I've got

16 it spelled on my phone, okay? But this is

17 not right. This is not the right spelling, I

18 know.

19 Q. We've got it there. K-U-H-E-N (sic.).

20 A. Okay. How did you get that? You got it?

21 Q. Yeah, we've had him referenced before.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. Of course if I ask you where the location is

24 on the record then it will be public.

25 A. Please don't ask me.


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1 Q. So why don't we go off the record and I'll

2 ask you that.

3 A. Okay.

4 BY MR. LORAINE: Would you go off the

5 record there?

6 BY COURT REPORTER: Yes, sir.

7 (Off record discussion 11:42 to 11:44 a.m., back

8 on record)

9 Q. By Mr. Loraine) We're back on. Is it your

10 opinion that Mr. Woolston made profit through

11 Four State Homes during the tornado event?

12 Is that your position?

13 A. During the tornado event?

14 Q. Well, you know, as a result of that, the

15 redevelopment of that.

16 A. We will now. He hasn't in the past.

17 Q. So he's a real estate agent?

18 A. He was a real estate agent with Pro 100 Real

19 Estate Company until he quit and became

20 partners with Mr. Kuehn at Four State Homes

21 and they have set up their own real estate

22 agency.

23 Q. I assume Mr. Kuehn will come in and talk with

24 me?

25 A. I have no idea whether Charlie will or not.


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1 I assume he will. I'll tell you that he will

2 tell you that he wants Mike to be profitable

3 because he saw what happened to Mike during

4 the tornado when he didn't sell any property

5 and other people sold lots of property and

6 made lots of money and Woolston never made

7 any and now he wants to help Mike. I have

8 visited with Mr. Kuehn and that is what he

9 personally told me, and I believe that.

10 Q. Why did Mr. Woolston not make any money

11 during?

12 A. Because he was too busy being the Mayor.

13 That's what Charlie told me.

14 Q. Well, Mayors probably shouldn't be making

15 money when they're in office on real estate

16 matters, should they?

17 A. I agree with that.

18 Q. Do you believe the apparent conflict is a

19 problem as well as whether there is conflict

20 or not?

21 A. Please ask that question again.

22 Q. Well, there's an appearance of conflict,

23 that's one thing, and then there is an actual

24 conflict.

25 A. Okay.


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1 Q. Are we talking about in your opinion with Mr.

2 Woolston, are we talking about appearance of

3 conflict or are we talking about actual

4 conflict?

5 A. With Mr. Woolston?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. I can't answer the question. I don't know.

8 I know the appearance is there. I can't

9 answer whether it's a fact or not. Sometime

10 appearance supersedes reality.

11 Q. Did you get complaints from people in the

12 public as Councilman about Mr. Woolston's

13 real estate dealings?

14 A. I've had one complaint.

15 Q. And who has that been with?

16 A. Cheryl Dandridge.

17 Q. Is she a former Mayor something?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Sharon?

20 A. Cheryl, C-H-E-R-Y-L.

21 Q. What did she complain about?

22 A. Her daughter and son-in-law own property on

23 Delaware and Mr. Woolston was very

24 inappropriate in their actions - she wants to

25 talk to you anyhow. Yes, she would come in


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1 and talk to you. I've got her phone number

2 if you want it.

3 Q. Yeah, if you have it.

4 A. Just a second. 417-849-1242.

5 Q. What is she actually complaining about? His

6 actions?

7 A. I'll have to let her tell it. She never told

8 me that she - I never know what her complaint

9 is except that she said he was very

10 inappropriate and took advantage of them.

11 Q. On the part of --

12 A. Buying the land. They own a house on

13 Delaware about between 20th Street and 18th

14 Street, I don't know the exact address, it

15 was somewhere within the 18 or 1900 block of

16 South Delaware.

17 Q. Why was Woolston buying that property?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Did he subsequently sell that to the City?

20 You don't know?

21 A. He would have sold it to the JRC so I don't

22 know. I don't know if the property - I don't

23 know.

24 Q. You don't know if it's in a Land Bank or not?

25 A. Do what? I don't know. I don't know.


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1 Q. Your phone number is 417-623-1020?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Off the record.


5 on record)

6 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) You had a meeting with the

7 City Manager and the Police Chief?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Who else was present at that?

10 A. I think the City Attorney was, but I'm not

11 sure. But I think he was.

12 Q. What happened at that meeting?

13 A. I asked the Police Chief why he felt it was

14 necessary to share with non law enforcement

15 people information about an FBI investigation

16 which I was interviewed.

17 Q. Is that the sum and substance of it?

18 A. That was my concern. I was not happy about

19 it.

20 Q. What was the answer to that?

21 A. The Chief explained that he - the Chief said

22 that he had gotten permission from the FBI to

23 share that information with Mr. Rohr, former

24 Mayor Gary Shaw, former Mayor Mike Woolston,

25 and current Mayor Melodee Colbert-Kean.


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1 Q. What would Shaw say about that?

2 A. What would who?

3 Q. Shaw.

4 A. I have no idea.

5 Q. You've not talked with him about it?

6 A. I haven't talked to Shaw about it. I haven't

7 talked with Woolston about it either. I just

8 know that the meeting took place. The only

9 reason I know the meeting took place is that

10 Mrs. Colbert-Kean asked me about it, told me

11 about it, and I immediately asked if I could

12 have a meeting with Mark and would he have

13 the Police Chief there, because the Police

14 Chief is his employee, not mine.

15 Q. Off the record.


17 on record)

18 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Anything else that we

19 should talk about?

20 A. I guess I could ask the question, this event

21 that took place in 1991 when I was not on the

22 Council, how does it affect my being on the

23 Council now?

24 Q. Well, I think that is the question that your

25 attorney posed and I guess the way - maybe if


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1 you go through this scenario of interviews

2 and stuff there's confusion as to what you

3 admitted to.

4 A. Right, I understand that.

5 Q. It kind of looks like you admit a little bit

6 more as it goes along. That's kind of what

7 it looks like.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. At least that's what I've been told.

10 A. I would offer the following. When the

11 question was asked of me I said no. I'm the

12 one who initiated the call to the Joplin

13 Globe. They kept printing that I didn't know

14 about gambling. Charles and I in his office

15 initiated the calls to the Globe to try to

16 get that straightened out and tell them that

17 I did know it was gambling. But the question

18 they asked me was very vague about how the

19 question was worded. I thought the question

20 was worded in that did you know at the time

21 you rented it they were going to use it for

22 gambling and the answer is no. Later on I

23 found out, yes, that's true. And that may be

24 why it appears that way and it is that way.

25 I did admit. But if she had made the


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1 follow-up question did you know later on or

2 did you know he finally used it for gambling

3 my answer would have been yes. That question

4 was never asked. But then, you know, then I

5 vote to fire Mark and it comes out with a big

6 flash and says I know more than I'm telling,

7 and sir, there is no more.

8 Q. Well, one of the things that I can do is try

9 to make City employees tell me things.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if the City employees don't tell me

12 things City employees are running the risk

13 under Garrity of losing their job because of

14 failure to, but I can't fire anybody.

15 A. I understand that. But I do want to point

16 out to you that if they do talk to you they

17 also are under the risk of losing their job.

18 Q. That's absolutely correct. It's two swords,

19 I mean two blades in that sword, and the only

20 thing good is they can't get prosecuted for

21 it, you know. I mean it comes out. But, you

22 know, noncooperation itself under Garrity is

23 enough to eliminate someone and so, you know,

24 we try to talk to those people and try to get

25 everything we can out of them. If they don't


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1 talk, they don't talk.

2 A. I understand.

3 Q. Let me say, you know, we have - I think this

4 ending report that I deliver will be in

5 closed session, but I'm quite certain that

6 the City Attorney has every intention to make

7 that public.

8 A. I have no problem with that.

9 Q. As soon as thereafter. So, you know, that

10 seems to be pretty much the modus operandi

11 here. But I don't think I have anything

12 further. I mean I would like some follow-up

13 information.

14 A. I will get you whatever you wanted to come.

15 Q. And I appreciate you coming in here.

16 A. Thank you.

17 Q. I hope to clarify some of these issues to the

18 extent that people will allow me to clarify

19 these issues. And I think that remains a

20 problem. And I think, you know, it will come

21 out in my report anyway, but I did ask Carol

22 Stark to talk to me if she has all of this

23 information and she refused to do that. I

24 find that interesting.

25 BY COURT REPORTER: Still on the


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1 record?

2 BY MR. LORAINE: Yes.

3 BY COURT REPORTER: Just wanted to be

4 sure.

5 A. Isn't that with newspapers? Don't want

6 anything to be public except what they

7 thought?

8 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Well, I mean it would be

9 different if she wanted to - I mean she

10 didn't even discuss keeping her sources

11 secret or anything, she just wouldn't even

12 meet with me. I find that incredulous

13 frankly.

14 A. Can I elaborate a little bit?

15 Q. Sure.

16 A. In June I took my three grandchildren, or

17 three of my eight grandchildren to Gulf Port,

18 Mississippi on a one week vacation. During

19 that period of time there was an editorial in

20 the Joplin Globe about the split on the

21 Council. When I came back I called Mike who

22 was the Editor of the Globe, the Publisher.

23 Q. Mike? What's his last name?

24 A. What's his last name? I can't --

25 BY MR. GENISIO: It's in the second


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1 or third page.

2 A. Anyhow and I asked if I could meet with Carol

3 and with Mike and we met and we met for about

4 an hour. I told Carol I didn't believe that

5 there was a split on the Council. I thought

6 what - I said there's a difference of

7 philosophy on the Council. One of the

8 philosophies is that this town will be a

9 staff driven town, that whatever the staff

10 does the Council goes right along with them

11 and even to the extent of making policy. The

12 other is that this will be a Council driven

13 town, that people on the Council are elected

14 to do the job, set the policy, staff simply

15 administers it, and that's really one of the

16 places where the split is. I mean there are

17 people who don't want - I mean an example

18 would be when I get something from the staff

19 I always call and verify. We went through a

20 procedure recently where we had, and I wasn't

21 there for the final vote so I don't know

22 exactly what happened, but we were having a

23 different kind of plan. We were told that

24 certain cities had what's called a paper

25 performance plan and we were given a list of


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1 cities and I called them. And when I called

2 them 25 percent of that list was not on paper

3 performance. So I believe what I get. I

4 believe that staff that sends you things to

5 control your vote. Springfield is one of

6 them. Joplin tries to be more like

7 Springfield because they're kind of like a

8 little sister, but Springfield is one of

9 them. Springfield had talked about it and

10 we're talking. They didn't have it at that

11 point in time. So during the conversation

12 the question came up of the performing arts

13 center which Carol is one of the great

14 advocates of and I told her I wasn't in favor

15 of it. I think it's a poor location. I'm in

16 favor of a performing arts center, but I'm

17 not in favor of putting it where they want to

18 put it. It's just a poor location, bad to

19 get to, hard to get to, impossible to make

20 profitable at that location. She also asked

21 me if - she said there is a rumor that there

22 are people who want to fire Mark Rohr on the

23 Council and I said that is absolutely correct

24 and I happen to be one of them. And since

25 that meeting Carol Stark has never liked me


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1 at all. And I believe that she thinks or

2 believes that if I'm not there it might not

3 happen.

4 Q. (By Mr. Loraine) Firing Mark?

5 A. No, if I'm not at the Council that some of

6 the things that she wants to do like the

7 performing arts center might happen. I'm not

8 going to vote for it. I think it just puts

9 the City treasury and the future at risk. I

10 made telephone calls. I made a telephone

11 call to the bond issue people on one of the

12 projects that we've got coming up and I asked

13 them if they were going to be tax or tax free

14 bonds, how they were going to be sold, who

15 was going to have to back the bond. I found

16 out the City is going to be asked to back the

17 bonds and I'm not in favor of ever putting

18 the City treasury at risk by backing bonds on

19 a theater. I think theaters are becoming a

20 thing of the past. My children who are in

21 their thirties, they don't even go to the

22 theater. They rent their movies off of

23 NetFlix, have it downloaded on their

24 computer, and play it on their big screen TV.

25 I believe investing 14 million dollars, the


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1 City investing and backing bonds of a 14

2 million dollar theater puts our treasury at

3 risk, because if it fails who has got to pay

4 it off, the citizens of Joplin. But there

5 are people who have been sold on that idea.

6 And I was criticized for calling the lady.

7 As a matter of fact one of the Council

8 members called me going rogue, and I told him

9 I was going to continue to call and do my own

10 research because I quite honestly didn't

11 believe the research the staff presented me.

12 Q. What Council member called you rogue?

13 A. Mr. Seibert. In the meeting. In the meeting

14 in which the idea of an investigator was

15 brought forth. But he also, you know, said

16 in the meeting that we want to investigate

17 this note that was stolen off of Mark's desk.

18 And I said, wait a minute, you've got that

19 wrong. It wasn't stolen off of Mark's desk.

20 And I resent you saying it was. But that's

21 the kind of stuff you've got going on. Now

22 whether I'm right or whether I'm wrong I

23 guess the public will decide one day. But I

24 do get every day people saying don't give up.

25 Not everybody in this town dislikes me.


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1 Q. I have nothing further.

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. Thank you for your cooperation.

4 A. Thank you.

5

6 (SWORN STATEMENT CONCLUDED)

7

8

9


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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

STATE OF MISSOURI

ss.

COUNTY OF JASPER

I, SHARON K. ROGERS, Certified Court Reporter in the

State of Missouri, do certify that pursuant to the

foregoing Stipulation the witness came before me on the 6th

day November, 2013, was duly sworn by me, and was examined.

That examination was then taken by me by steno-mask

recording and afterwards transcribed; said Sworn Statement

is subscribed by the witness as hereinbefore set out on the

day in that behalf aforesaid and is herewith returned.

I further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or

relative of either party, or clerk, or stenographer of

either party or of the attorney of either party, or

otherwise interested in the event of this suit.

_________________________

SHARON K. ROGERS, CCR-650

Documents

Scearce, William | (Investigation testimony)