Revue

Personne ici n’est innocent

Personne ici n’est innocent

Kjersti G. A!"#$%

Triangle France / Monografik Éditions

To SKoo-B-Dawg

7Les Auteurs / !e Authors

Du bon côté de l’aiguille On the Right Side of the Needle Dorothée D&'&$( - Née en / b. 1980, Française / French Directrice de / Director of Triangle France

Dearest Carlton Cher Carlton Kjersti G. A!"#$% - Née en / b. 1978, Norvégienne / NorwegianArtiste / Arti!

Interview with Far Interview avec FarJens A!"#$% interviewé par / interviewed by Kjer!i - Né en / b. 1923, Norvégien / NorwegianProfesseur à la retraite (grand-père de Kjersti) / Retired teacher (Kjer!i’s grandfather)

Mr. President M. le PrésidentInger Louise V)**+ - 1921-2006, Norvégienne / NorwegianPoliticienne norvégienne a,liée au parti Travailliste (sœur de Jens A!"#$%) / Former Norwegian politician for the Labour party (Jens ANDVIG’s si!er)

Mortuary of Conformity Le Mortuaire de la ConformitéCarlton A. T&-!+- - Né en / b. 1979, Américain / AmericanRéside dans le Couloir de la Mort depuis 1999 / Has resided on Death Row since 1999

Death La MortNadia A. A./+*+!+$! - Née en / b. 1989, Norvégienne / NorwegianÉtudiante (cousine de Kjersti) / Student (Kjer!i’s cousin)

Tricoter n’est pas tisser quand le fil est une vie Knitting is not weaving when the thread is a lifeBastien G)**+0 - Né en / b. 1971, Français / FrenchPhilosophe et enseignant / Philosopher and teacher

Lost PerdusKrishell R. M+1+-(-C/*+2)! - Née en / b. 1967, Américaine / AmericanCadre (cousine de Carlton) / O"ce Manager (Carlton’s cousin)

Interview with Mor Interview avec MorAsbjørg A!"#$% interviewée par interviewed by Kjer!i et / and Inger (Kjer!i’s mother)Née en / b. 1926, Norvégienne / NorwegianProfesseure à la retraite (grand-mère de Kjersti) / Retired teacher (Kjer!i’s grandmother)

September 13, 2007 Le 13 septembre 2007Karl C3)2.+-*)$! - Né en / b. 1970, Américain / AmericanRéside dans le couloir de la mort depuis 1997 (Karl et Carlton se sont rencontrés dans les quartiers réservés aux condamnés en instance de départ pour l’exécution en 2007) / Has resided on Death Row since 1997 (Karl and Carlton became friends on deathwatch in 2007)

9Du bon côté de l’aiguille - Dorothée D"#"$%

Dorothée D"#"$%

Du bon côté de l’aiguilleUn essai sur le maillage complexe entre art et politique

Réaliser une œuvre d’art avec la participation d’un condamné à mort : cela pourrait être une œuvre de Santiago Serra 1, mais c’est d’un projet de la jeune artiste norvégienne Kjersti Andvig qu’il s’agit.

Celle-ci a proposé à un détenu du couloir de la mort au Texas de reproduire à l’échelle 1 le lieu de son incarcération, à savoir sa cellule, mais en… tricot. Projet rendu bien évidemment impos-sible par l’interdi4ion d’introduire des objets coupants dans la cel-lule haute sécurité. Qu’à cela ne tienne, Kjersti décide de tricoter l’œuvre elle-même, avec l’aide de quelques personnes, et sur les indications de Carlton (mesures, dessins, slogans, couleurs…).

Sous ses apparences de caprice arty complaisant, l’œuvre, son sujet et les participants à sa réalisation mettent en lumière cer-tains aspe4s singuliers de l’art d’aujourd’hui, tel qu’il peut idéa-lement se situer entre pure logique esthétique et revendication éternelle de représenter les problématiques du réel dans toute leur complexité.

1. Santiago Serra, artiste espagnol né en 1966.

10 Personne ici n’est innocent

Il faudrait tout d’abord décrire l’œuvre. La cellule est faite de pans de tricots, assemblés un peu à la manière d’un patchwork mais dont les di5érents morceaux présenteraient un fond de couleur identique. Sur ces panneaux, constituant les murs, le plafond, le sol et même le mobilier de la cellule, sont figurés des dessins, des sigles, des textes que Carlton a remis à Kjersti en raison de leur symbolique spirituelle et carcérale. La cellule fait une taille de 2 m x 3 m, pour une hauteur de murs de 2,40 m – rappelons qu’il s’agit de la taille de la cellule en réalité. Les panneaux de tricot sont tendus sur une stru4ure en bois, le pla-fond soutenu en sus par un système de filins empêchant le tri-cot de se détendre. Le pan de tricot figurant le sol est tendu sur un plancher en bois, légèrement surélevé du sol d’une ving-taine de centimètres. Il est noir, et est orné d’un pentacle rouge d’un diamètre d’environ 60 cm qui occupe tout son centre. Aux murs sont di5érents signes de gangs de prisonniers, associant des motifs hip hop, religieux, franc-maçonniques, mythologiques… Sur le mur du fond, un drapeau rouge, vert, jaune et noir, arbo-rant un croissant islamique.

L’endroit de la maille constituant l’intérieur de la cellule, ces motifs n’apparaissent clairement que si on les regarde par l’un des deux orifices prévus à cet e5et, selon le modèle de la cellule originelle dont les mesures sont respe4ées scrupuleusement. L’un est une fente verticale dans la porte, et l’autre une sorte de fenêtre plus large que haute et située sur le mur du fond à une hauteur de deux mètres environ : il faut monter sur une sorte de petite estrade, qui n’est pas sans rappeler une volée de marches condui-sant à un échafaud, pour pouvoir y jeter un œil.

Il n’est pas possible de se représenter une image globale de la cellule autrement qu’en regardant par ces deux ouvertures : de l’extérieur, l’objet se présente comme l’envers opaque d’un gigan-


tesque pull. Pour une fois, c’est le corps qui est à l’extérieur du tricot, repoussé. De l’extérieur, les signes qui ornent les parois sont dissimulés à la vue, illisibles.

Seule éclairée au milieu d’une pièce sombre, la cellule semble attendre les protagonistes d’un drame étrange, d’une pièce pour enfants qui tournerait mal, façon Sa Maje!é des Mouches 2. Les parois beiges de la cellule, ses toilettes immaculées, son couvre-lit marine et ses étagères turquoises faussement joyeuses paraissent attendre, invoquer de toute la tendresse de leurs points mousseux la giclée de sang à l’origine de leur histoire.

Kjersti s’est inspirée de la figure des « tricoteuses », ces femmes qui tricotaient aux exécutions pendant la Révolution Française. Sautant minutieusement une maille à chaque nouvelle tête cou-pée, payées parfois en sus pour haranguer à l’occasion une popu-lace déjà bien excitée, cette ménagère Ancien Empire établit entre elle, le condamné et le système judiciaire une relation bien étrange.

Kjersti dit dans sa première lettre à Carlton vouloir que « cette fois ci ce soient les punis qui tricotent ». « Les punis » : à l’ori-gine de cette punition il y a un crime. Carlton n’est-il pas, dans un premier temps, un meurtrier ? Et la position de Kjersti elle-même, qui endosse cette punition, n’est elle pas impuissante, intéressée, naïve ? Les artistes ont des rhétoriques qui les pro-tègent. Pour aller jusqu’au bout, Kjersti sait qu’elle doit distri-buer les rôles, les a,rmer, les porter avec force. Elle sait que l’œuvre qu’elle construit est tout d’abord ce qu’est toute œuvre, c’est-à-dire une fi4ion élaborée par elle, un unique point de vue poussé à son maximum logique – et cela même si ce point de

2. Sa Majesté des Mouches, William Golding, 1954.


vue implique le rapprochement de plusieurs opinions à première vue antagonistes.

Maintenant, débarrassons nous de toute attente en termes de bien et de mal, de morale, d’éthique, de jugement : ce récit a ses propres règles, Kjersti les énonce, il faut les suivre pour pouvoir comprendre les protagonistes jusqu’au bout de l’histoire, jusqu’à sa fatale issue. Puisque c’est de la vie d’un homme qu’il s’agit.

Un homme qui a décidé de nous livrer ses derniers moments, même s’ils doivent être déformés, amplifiés, voire ignorés ou détournés. Kjersti tricote, elle assène les évènements à mesure qu’ils se déroulent, selon le calendrier implacable du système judiciaire américain. Sa version n’est ni pire ni meilleure, elle est simplement là ; Carlton est heureux, il y a tout à coup beaucoup de personnes à attendre avec lui, groupées autour de la confec-tion étirée de cette cellule identique à celle qu’il occupe, « boîte » fragile, qui va bientôt voyager d’Oslo à Marseille dans la soute d’un avion low co!.

Dès lors nous sommes tous là à attendre. Kjersti est la chef d’orchestre de cette mise à mort qui aurait dû avoir lieu depuis longtemps3. Dans le livre qui accompagne l’exposition de cet objet dérisoire et pourtant tendu à l’extrême, les textes s’enchaînent, et essayent de saisir la fugacité de cette vie, l’épaisseur de ce temps. Les images tentent de donner un sens à toutes ces questions, tous ces détails, personnels, historiques et autres. J’imagine le livre égaré dans quelques dizaines d’années sur l’étalage d’un bouquiniste bon marché : quiconque le feuilletterait, serait sans doute surpris de l’aventure relatée, de tous ces protagonistes ayant repris le cours de

3. Carlton A. Turner aurait dû être exécuté le 27 septembre 2007 à 18h. Son exécution a été stoppée à H+4 par la Cour Suprême des États-Unis à cause du recours de deux condamnés à mort du Kentucky contre l’injonction létale, suspectée d’être anticonstitutionnelle.


leurs a4ivités tranquilles, de leurs vies paisibles. Auxquels la mort a à peine porté une estocade ; ou au contraire, qu’elle a mis à terre, longuement a5aiblis. Peut-être même emportés depuis, vaincus.

Une sorte de plaidoyer extraordinaire, pour gens ordinaires. Il fallut certainement de la vanité et beaucoup d’audace à Gisèle Halimi pour défendre le cas de Marie-Claire 4 : Kjersti est de cette trempe, elle n’est pas avocate mais artiste et pourtant elle pense comme Mme Halimi que l’histoire moderne de nos socié-tés s’écrit en majorité dans les tribunaux. C’est en transposant l’histoire de Carlton du domaine du droit (soumis à l’éthique) au domaine de l’art (soumis à l’esthétique) que Kjersti surmonte le problème du bien et du mal pour proposer un système qui met en jeu notre perception de la réalité politique d’une situa-tion pour mieux en saisir la profonde complexité. Qu’elle dépos-sède ainsi Carlton de son histoire pour s’en vêtir, pour la subli-mer, pour en faire le conte cruel qui nous est livré aujourd’hui, avec une féroce insolence et une naïveté assumée, revendiquée, n’a finalement pas beaucoup d’importance.

Comme Carlton, d’un lyrisme fanatique sur la foi et la justice mais incapable de s’amender pour le meurtre de ses deux parents adoptifs, et à une époque où, comme il le rappelle, nos réflexions, esthétiques, politiques et autres, restent tributaires d’une logique de « boîtes » souvent subie en toute ignorance, nous devenons alors capables de sortir du !atu quo, nous accédons à une sorte d’omniscience délirante, de sensation jouissive d’intelligibilité, d’équité.

4. En 1972, l’avocate Gisèle Halimi défend devant les tribunaux Michèle C. et sa fille Marie-Claire, 16 ans, accusées respectivement de complicité d’avortement et d’avortement. Les prévenues et leurs complices seront relaxées ou condamnées à des peines très légères. Ce procès constituera une jurisprudence et aboutira à la loi Weil autorisant l’IVG en 1975.


Lorsque l’œuvre d’art ne somme pas le visiteur de faire un choix, ici et tout de suite (souvent par une logique de bonne conscience politique chère à de nombreux artistes, de Jota Castro 5 à Claire Fontaine 6), elle permet de faire exister le temps du doute, donc le temps de la compréhension. C’est cela qu’une œuvre véritablement politique (qui adresse donc la cité, donc le vivre ensemble), c’est une œuvre qui réalise le phénomène de compréhension (dont l’origine latine signifie littéralement sai-sir ensemble), qui permet au spe4ateur d’envisager la position qu’il occupe au sein du monde, avec lucidité et franchise, juste-ment parce qu’il en est retiré, soustrait à son influence par l’art. Pour reprendre les mots de Marc Olivier Wahler, interviewé par Emilie Renard dans le dernier Trouble 7, « l’art [peut être consi-déré comme] une sorte d’hygiène de l’esprit qui nous réapprend à ne pas fon4ionner selon une logique exclusive ou séle4ive mais selon une logique inclusive, où les possibles cohabitent. »

Dans un monde où l’impossible, surtout le pire, semble s’installer de façon durable, il est sans doute nécessaire que l’art invente cet endroit magique où les possibles, eux, puissent s’ins-taller et se multiplier. Ces temps-ci, ce lieu a la forme d’une petite cellule de tricot.

**

5. Jota Castro, artiste péruvien né en 1965.6. Claire Fontaine, collectif artistique composé de Fulvia Carnevale, italienne, et James 6ornhill, écossais, fondé en 2004 à Paris.7. Prédictions, un catalogue d’exposition fictive réalisé par Trouble, octobre 2007, entretien entre Émilie Renard, critique d’art et rédactrice de la revue, et Marc Olivier Wahler, directeur du Palais de Tokyo, Paris, p.93.

17First letter from Kjersti G. A&'($) to Carlton A. T"*&+* - Kjersti G. A&'($)

From Kjersti G. A&'($) to Carlton A. T"*&+*

Dearest Carlton, I’m 28 years old and from Norway. Originally I come from

a small island up at the very north, a place where you have long winters with no sun, and short summers when darkness is a complete stranger. It’s often been described as exotic for it’s wild climate and rough geography, though at the moment I live in Oslo, where I work as an artist. It is through my work I experi-ence the world and it is also this that has finally led me to you.

6e story up till this point is long and will at times be di,-cult to put into words, but I think it’s important that you know as much as possible of the details and my reasons for writing you, so I shall try my best to be clear.

About seven months ago, just before Christmas, I learned to knit. My dear flatmate and friend for over 18 years, Truls, thought knitting would help ‘ease my mind’, as I had ordered a plane tick-et for a three weeks stay in Paris. I was going to stay with a man I had only met once before, and so naturally I was extremely ex-cited and restless (a trait I carry).

Most of my friends and family thought watching me knit rather humorous, as I am not the sort of girl you normally would asso-ciate with this kind of leisure. I decided however to knit a warm woolen scarf as a Christmas present for my ‘French mystery man’.


Four weeks later the present was nicely received, and when I got home from my holiday I was crazy in-love and decided to knit another scarf. Now with the text: 6is Time it’s Personal! It was while knitting this I was told the story about ‘Les Tricoteuses’.

Les Tricoteuses were women who would knit during trials and by the guillotine, as it would do its work on the heads of the French people, in what’s later been described as ‘la Terreur’ (‘the Reign of Terror’ 1792-1793), of the French Revolution. Accord-ing to the story they would also drop a stitch in their knitwear as the blade separated the head from the body.

If you don’t know much about the technicalities of knitting you may not understand what it means to ‘drop a stitch’, but basically knitting consists of several knots after each other all made up by one thread. If you ‘lose a knot’, you will get a ‘gap’ and the whole thing will slowly fall apart, – or deteriorate. 6ese ‘gaps’ where later used as statistics to count how many executions there had been throughout the day.

At the same time they where also known to shout ‘Coupez leur la tête!’ Translated into English this means, ‘Cut o5 their heads!’ 6ey would always stand first in line thirsting for more and more blood from the Aristocracy.

Interestingly the word Capital, as in Capital Punishment, orig-inates from Latin and mean ‘concerning the head’, or ‘loosing your head’. I therefore find the guillotine to symbolize the death penalty very accurate.

6e combination of the viciousness from watching people being executed, and in the eager manner as these women did, and the consideration of doing this a4 of knitting and dropping a knot, has a diversion to it which I find both poetic and very


strong. Discovering these links between the French revolution, the judicial system in so-called democratic countries, capital punishment and knitting opened up a whole new podium for refle4ion and contemplation.

Long before I heard about les Tricoteuses, Marie-Antoinette, the last queen of France, has enthralled me. As you may know she was executed in 1793, and she was a girl with the lust for the better things in life, – like gambling, opera, diamonds and so on – and I must admit I have a weakness for the pompous!

My personal love for Marie-Antoinette and the fa4 that she was a vi4im of the guillotine and les Tricoteuses resulted in three more knitted scarves. One with the name of Marie, and one of her husband Louis XVI, and finally a 4,5 meter long knitted ban-ner with the text ‘Coupez Leur la Tête!’

6e scarves with the names of the king and the queen are placed in a homemade box, the size of a child’s co,n and come across as solemn and ‘sensitive’. While the Banner ‘Coupez Leur la Tête!’ is mounted on four wooden sticks, and is on the contrary from the box – a very brutal statement. I wish I could send you some pi4ures but I haven’t yet any proper documentation of these pieces.

It is these stories that laid the ground for my interest in Death Row.

6e French Revolution is considered, by many, as one of the most important events in shaping ‘the modern democracy’ and the judicial systems we share in the west today, and it is my belief that it’s in the courthouses the values of our societies are materialized. So when I later also learned that les Tricoteuses was paid to par-ticipate during trials, it all became even more curious to me. It


brings up many questions concerning our civilization and the principles we choose to live by. We can of course also take it even further and say it is especially interesting in these times of divergence between the ideals of the East and the West. 6e per-ception of what’s good and what’s evil are very prominent at this time and age, and I guess it would be corre4 to say it is these ideas, or preconceptions of right and wrong, I wish to explore and call into question in my works.

By now I’m sure you understand why I found your letter of particular interest. You haven’t revealed much of yourself, but you mention revolution rhetoric (which I don’t really know what is?), the feminist aspe4s of history, as well as you’re an artist yourself.

6e reason I’m writing is partly to learn and discuss the dif-ferent aspe4s of human nature your situation brings into light, though my real motive behind this letter is to invite you to par-ticipate in an art-proje4.

What I have in mind is to teach you to knit!

Traditionally the knitters where the punishers, – but in this case it will be the punished that are knitting.

Nowadays knitting is associated with something that is made with the biggest care and love, and definitely as a women craft (it a4ually used to be a men’s craft a long time ago). So what I hope we can accomplish is to make another impression of Death Row inmates – then the one of ‘cold blooded murderers’.

When I first began this exploration it was my opposition to-wards capital punishment that was the motivating force, but as my knowledge grew about the reality of Death Row, the thing that perhaps has made the biggest impression is the long waiting. All the hours. Time.


It’s a paradox really – in one sense you have so ‘little time left’, still “all you have” – is time! It’s very special. Very uncanny. It is in this aspe4 of your situation I believe knitting really can make an impeccable and valuable comment or demonstration – knitting demand patience – and time!

It also refle4s the amount of energy and e5ort behind the pieces made, in a way that’s very comprehendible to outsiders.

A few days ago I had dinner with a good friend of mine, one who knows how to stimulate my brain into that of imagination and vision. We spoke about the implications of asking you to knit. We where talking about the physical space you are in, and about what obje4 or text could possible be strong enough!?

It there occurred to me, as lightning from a clear blue sky; you should knit your entire home!

By that I mean 3D. Knit the walls, the ceiling, the bars, the bed and so forth. I know I’m jumping many steps ahead now, presuming a lot, – but Ohhh! 6e statement this will be – it is Huge! I wish I could describe my enthusiasm better than only through exclamation marks and clumsy words. I can’t get this pi4ure out of my mind – it a5e4s me emotionally, and I fully wish to transmit this experience and some of these thoughts sur-rounding this, to others.

I have no knowledge of how to pra4ically go through with this, as I presume there might be some “slight” obstacles to over-come before we reach that point, due to American prison regula-tions, but my experience has taught me that ‘where there is a will, there is a way’, so I’m not really worried about this. Persistence is a quality I treasure highly.


Evidently at this point either of us know whether you would find knitting to be peaceful and relaxing, and you will have to enjoy it if you were to come along with me on this endeavor. 6is will take a lot of time and planning and it must be the meeting between us that shall lay the ground for the future events to hap-pen. You should also know that my previous work has usually been made over time and they do tend to change as they come along. 6ey are not definite.

Looking through all the letters on the Internet from death row inmates was a very strong experience for me, and the thoughts I was left with was those concerning the amounts of loneliness and isolation a body and mind can a4ually take. 6e level of frustration, the importance of human conta4, and na-ture’s strong survival instin4s are some of the things that springs to mind and which I want to talk to you about. 6ere are un-doubtedly also the issues surrounding death and dying and mur-der. You don’t mention in your letter whether these are topics you prefer not to discuss? Can I ask you if you are scared?

I also have many questions about the more “trivial”, or pra4ical things like – what are the rules for listen to music? Can you watch video? What are the rules for visitation and can you have a camera inside your cell? What is the Internet policy? For-give me if my questions are foolish, but I know nothing about these things.

Along with the letter I’m sending a pi4ure of a sculpture I made some years ago. It’s a self-portrait, made up by yellow Lego bricks and it’s about five meters tall. One of the ideas behind it was to try and make an organic-looking, anatomically corre4,


female body, from square bricks. 6e word Lego also come from Danish and means ‘play-well’, which I really like.

I’d love to tell more about my work, but many of them are site-specific to Norway – like the native Norwegians ; the Sámi people, or Norwegian business and moneymen, and so forth. We’ll save that for later. As for now I’m just very curious of what goes through your mind?

However, before I end this letter I guess it would be fair to let you in on some of the other things I take great interest in. Obviously there’s politics, but there are also political leaders of special substance, like Nixon and Hillary Clinton. Genetic engineering and science, gambling, poker and Las Vegas, and the magic of neon-lights. As mentioned at the beginning of the let-ter, art is the driving force in my life and so naturally my interests are conne4ed with my works. I love to travel and try if possible to make my work in other countries, but I’ve only been around in Europe and USA so far. I bought the postcard for you in Berlin, where I spent all of June this summer. I thought of you when I saw it.

For the time being I’m also trying to learn French from the Internet, and despite my skepticism at first, I find it to my big sur-prise to be great fun! Or as a friend of mine so delicately put it: it’s yet another language to insult people in (followed by a big smile and a little laugh!) But of course I’m learning it for quite opposite reasons. 6en I love to dress up and I have a big dress colle4ion of second-hand dresses from Salvation Army, and music almost goes without saying.

I like to believe I have a broad taste in sound, and at present I’m really hooked on Maria Callas, and if I had to choose it would probably be women such as her, and Tori Amos, PJ Harvey, Bjørk


and Diamanda Galas that would triumph. You said you where interested in industrial heavy metal – what bands are you into? I’m sorry to say I’m not a big reader, but I enjoy some poetry, in particularly the old romantics like Shelley and Lord Byron. I also like the title on your book Nechronomi!ic. It has nice sounds to it, though I couldn’t find any explanations of the word in my dic-tionary. 6e closest I got was the word Necessity :-)

6en I have a big family with many sisters and brothers and my relatives means a lot to me, at least on my mothers’ side. 6ey have always been very supportive. Astrology is another fascina-tion I could mention – I’m a Gemini by the way. And last but not least, I’m a drinker and a smoker.

You say in one of your pen-pal requests that you are looking for someone who can “learn and teach at the same time”, some-one who are able to “share words from their heart and inspire my mind and spirit”.

Well, I can certainly be a good pupil. Maybe I’m not always ‘the sharpest knife in the drawer’, but I’m curious by nature and I have an open mind. My ideas may seem a little strange at first glance, but it is this ‘quality’ you may find to be inspiring in the long run. I hope this can be the beginning of a remarkable artwork and a meaningful friendship. I believe from the core of my heart if you where to come a little further with me on this, we may be able to make something significant both for you, me, and hopefully many others.

Your Sincerely,

Kjersti

**

29Interview with Far - Jens A&'($)

Kjersti A&'($) & Jens A&'($)

Interview with FarKjersti: How has the use of the notion “democracy” developed

since the french revolution until now?Jens: In the middle-ages everyone talked about God, now they

talk about democracy. But it’s an illusion.Kjersti: #e idea of democracy?Jens: Yes. Class stru4ure isn’t eliminated because of democ-

racy. Classes remain, but it is less noticeable since there’s more movement within the classes now. 6ere are more people from the working class who move upwards. Still the rich have a huge advantage.Kjersti: Yes but was the idea of democracy to eliminate classes?Jens: I don’t know. If you follow Marx and Engels, it’s the

working class who should rule in a society. In reality the leaders got the power (laughs). Which maybe explains why everything went so very wrong. I don’t think the class stru4ure will disap-pear as long as there is people, but it will change. In Norway all male did not get the right to vote until 1898, I think, and women didn’t until 1913. It’s rather recently that the USA had a battle for blacks to be able to vote.Kjersti: But how do you define democracy?Jens: I don’t. I think of it more as an historical element. I’m


very skeptical when people talk about democracy (laughs).Kjersti: I find it intere!ing that the definition is never discussed.

For in!ance when you talk about democracy in Norway and USA, it’s really two di$erent discussions.

Jens: But the system in Norway today is much better than it was, say 100 years ago, or 150 years ago. 6en very few could vote. 6ere is a very interesting book by Howard Zinn about the history of the people in USA1. It’s from the start until now. He writes about how the large corporations have been in power for such a long time.Kjersti: What kind of impa% did the French Revolution have for

democracy?Jens: It was the starting point, but the American Revolution

was first. 6e Norwegian Constitution is rather based on the American Revolution than the French ideas, because there they had Napolean. Still it wasn’t a real genocide. A few thousand died under the French Revolution, but during the wars – the Napoleonic wars, I think as many as half a million died. Of course the whole question of democracy is very di,cult really. And it’s obvious that the elite have a lot of power.Kjersti: Are there any philosophers or great thinkers you feel have

been especially important?Jens: Marx and Engels. No, but seriously, the reason for my

skepsism to all that democracy talk is because it camouflages the a4ual conditions in a society, the really fundamental power stru4ures.Kjersti: You’ve also been very intere!ed in Darwin, how does he

fit into the equation?Jens: Take a look at the history of this planet. 6ey say life on

1. Howard Zinn, A People’s History of the United States, Harper Perennial Modern Classics, 2005.


Earth is 3.8 billion years old, some say 4. 6is is where Darwin comes in. Humanity is a relatively new species. 6e cod is 140 million years old, whilst humans may have only been around for the last 15 million years, Homo Sapiens have only been here between 500 000, or even as low as 20 000 years. A whale I think has been here 20 million years. 6e largest animal which has ex-isted on this planet is the blue whale. But there are trees that are heavier than the blue whale. 6ey exist somewhere in the USA or America but there are only a few left. So when it comes to life on the planet there is no escaping Darwin. Even when we discuss todays climate changes, the history of the planet comes in and with it the history of life. Astronomers are on top of this. In the Milky Way alone there are thousands of stars and we have to as-sume that on some of these planets there is life. 6ere might have been life on Mars but there’s no water there now. Venus – which is the closest planet to ours – has a temperature of 480 degrees, so no life can exist there. I am not so fond of the book #e Descent of Man 2, though. He’s not very kind towards women or savag-es in that book. However I’m very impressed by #e Origins of #e Species 3. It’s started a whole new epoch. He doesn’t mention mankind so much there, but he does mention that species can disappear, or rather that they can disappear over a long period of time.Kjersti: But he also talks about the survival of the fitte!?Jens: Yes, but survival of the fittest is not something Darwin

wrote. It was a phrase invented by someone who read Darwin. Anyway, the “fittest” is also someone who can collaborate. It’s not just an individual thing. 6e “fittest” is not winning the

2. Charles Darwin, #e Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex, 1871.3. Charles Darwin, #e origins of the species, 1859.


Olympics. When I look at my own life and times where I have been politically a4ive, there are two periods that were very im-portant to me. 6e first was in 1943, when I joined Milorg 4. I just couldn’t leave the battle to others and I had to join. It was a conscientious decision.

6e second period was in 1967, wich also e5e4ed me deeply. I was really shocked by the 6-day war in Israel and all the en-thusiasm for war in Norway. 6e crimes against the Jews were comitted by the Germans, but it was the Palestinians who felt the wrath. You see Churchill wasn’t too fond of Israel but was powerless to change it. 6en again, for him, it was “6e Great British Empire” and he was corre4 when he said that 6e British Empire was formed through violence. Exa4ly! #rough violence. It was obvious. I’ve also become quite sceptical towards ethnicity.Kjersti: Like what?Jens: Well, look at the Balkans. Tito had a system. 6e

Communist Party tried. Tito was a Croatian but had a system which kept a fine balance, but when Soviet disappeared, IMF 5 demanded political reform. 6ere were demographic demands from the Serbs, the Croatians and the Albanians. An absolute cha-os! 6e whole of Yugoslavia went down the drain. Because as you know, after WWII they wanted to liberate all these ethnic com-munities. 6ey all wanted to create a new state, but as Keynes 6 writes about : the economy – they didn’t give the economy any heed. 6ey were just going to be ethnic. I’m all for an independ-

4. Milorg was a secret military organization under World War II in Norway. 6ey dealt in work like armed resistance, sabotage, intelligence work, supply-missions, raids, espionage, transport of goods imported to the country, release of Norwegian prisoners and escort for citizens fleeing the border to neutral Sweden.5. International Monetary Fund.6. John Maynard Keynes, 1st Baron Keynes, 1883-1946. British economist.


ent state, language etc. but you need a fundament in a sustainable economy.

No, I don’t know, democracy... Hobsbawm 7 writes about it. He notes that in 1960 or 1965 there were more prisoners in the USA than in Soviet 8. Many of the Soviet prisoners were politi-cal. In the USA they claim they have no political prisoners. Still, many of their prisoners are black, and that isn’t exa4ly demo-cratic (laughs). Obviously those at the bottom of society lose all faith in it.Kjersti: What do you think of the future of humanity?Jens: I’m sorry I’m a pessimist there. What is absolutely certain

is that we will disappear, but it won’t be in my time. I’m also very skeptical to these people that think technology is the solution to everything, like Stoltenberg 9. Mind you, he’s the Prime Minister he can’t be a pessimist – he’d lose the ele4ion (both laughs).Kjersti: Why is it important that there is life?Jens: Everyone wants to live – that’s a very powerful force.

Anyway, today’s climate debate has really brought the planets history into the current discussion. We could be looking at ma-jor disasters. I read an American book that estimated we might have to relocate 3 million people.Kjersti: Do you have any opinions on whether humans are good

or bad?Jens: No, but I doubt the relevance. I doubt good and bad.

People have exhibited both great evil and care. For instance with the Neanderthals they have found evidence of care for

7. Eric John Ernest Hobsbawm. British Marxist historian and author.8. Currently 49 percent black and 18 percent Hispanic, as quoted in Going up the River by James T. Hallinan, Random House, 20039. Jens Stoltenberg, leader of the Norwegian Labour Party since 2002 and the current Prime Minister of Norway.


their elderly.Kjersti: Do you think people have become kinder through the

years?Jens: No, I don’t think so. Well, the two World Wars certainly

scared people in the West. 6en again that lead to the Cold War. 6at and the atom bomb could have made the whole planet un-inhabitable. But that North Korea or Iran may have the ability of being a danger – psssh!! But Israel has the atom bomb. I saw that man Vanunu 10 today, he had been talking to foreign journalists. He was imprisoned for 18 years because he told the world that Israel had the atom bomb. So at the top level it can be horrible.Kjersti: What is man’s be! qualities?Jens: Intelligence. We are the most intelligent beings on the

planet and that’s including all life. Yes, we can say that some people are idiots, but that’s only a few. In all areas we demon-strate intelligence to some degree. I think maybe Newton was the greatest genius in the world of science. He was also a piece of shit, though (laughs).Kjersti: What are your dreams and aspirations for the re! of your

life?Jens: 6at we can continue living here and pass away quickly,

without a long painful wait. When I was in the hospital in 2005 I was afraid of becoming a vegetable. I was planning how to end my life if need be, because I do not want to end up like that.Kjersti: Do you often think about death?Jens: No. I don’t really feel I’ve a legacy. I can’t say that I’ve

built 6e Chinese wall or a pyramid, or something (laughs), that will be there after I’m gone. But I don’t like being ill.

10. Mordechai Vanunu, Israeli former nuclear technician who revealed details of Israel’s nuclear weapons program to the British press in 1986.


Kjersti: Do you think about how you’ll be remembered?Jens: No. I’ll be remembered for a while, that’s for certain, but

what people will say… p5f! My father was remembered more than my mother, because there was so much going on, and four books that were published 11. I’ve only written a few articles in the yearbook 12, where I was the foreman for 18 years. I’ve reread the articles recently and I’m on the whole quite pleased with them, but of course it isn’t literature. No. I tried that but I didn’t quite manage it. Kjersti: Which thinkers do you have mo! respe% for have inspired

you the mo!?Jens: I guess maybe Spinoza. What I felt was so special about

Spinoza, is that he used the word “God”. He kind of wanted to colle4 the whole of the world, the way people was experienc-ing it, and he implemented the emotion. Suppose it’s this thing about emotion which has been remembered most. For me, it was this; I think all people have this tendency to conne4 things one with another. When they think about it. 6at is, to get a global view of the situation. It may not have been the right one, but they have it and they try to keep it.Kjersti: Did Spinoza believe in God?Jens: He had a very strange belief in God. He was almost

hanged by his peers. He was really a mason, he had no position of power, he was not a professor or anything.Kjersti: So, you’ve never believed in God?Jens: Well, I guess I was more of an agnostic when I came to

Lofoten, but I didn’t want to be confirmed and when I was at the Christmas ceremony this year I thought – pshhh! it’s all just fair-

11. Himmelstorm (1946), Korset (1955), Vi Guder (1927) and Grundbott (1910) by Jens Andvig 1876-1962.12. Local yearbook for the Vågan community.


ytales (laughs). But it didn’t harm me and I didn’t rea4 too nega-tively. One of the books I have read recently has something to say – Dreams of a Final #eory by Weinberg 13. 6at is one of the best books I’ve read in a long time. I mean gravity – that force is not totally explained! It’s been studied of course, but Weinberg, he has a large proje4 which he is going to realize in Texas. A 84 km tunnel to discover certain elements. 6ey have something similar in France or Switzerland, but that’s only 20 km long.Kjersti: Hasn’t that something to do with “#e Big Bang”.Jens: Weinberg got the Nobel Prize 14 for 6e Big Bang. But

Deep Simplicity 15 was problematic. 6at’s when I understood I should have taken mathematics more seriously. But I didn’t. Frisch16 was one of those who combined mathematics with a so-cial democracy but his do4orgrade was too much for me. I did however notice that he often wrote “you was” and that irritated me a lot (both laugh).Kjersti: Do you believe something evil can lead to something

good?Jens: Mmm, no, yes. 6at would really be a discussion con-

cerning consequence philosophy.Kjersti: What is humanity’s greate! accomplishment?Jens: 6en we’re back again to intelligence. We are the only

species who knows something about the entirety of life on earth, and we know a bit about the universe. But what I am really inter-ested in and which I haven’t seen much about, – is consciousness. Because it’s obvious a dog has an awareness. And a horse. I sup-

13. Steven Weinberg, Dreams of a Final #eory: #e Scientist’s Search for the Ultimate Laws of Nature, Pantheon Books, 1994.14. Nobel Prize in Physics, 1979.15. John Gribbin, Deep Simplicity: Bringing Order to Chaos and Complexity, Penguin, 2004.16. Ragnar Anton Killi Frisch, 1895-1973, Norwegian economist.


pose also there is an awareness in a worm too. 6ey have at least discovered that such small creatures have a memory - if they’ve experienced something bad they try to avoid it in the future. A human being has a much greater awareness. I have often thought that when they hang a codfish to dry it doesn’t have much aware-ness. I think it’s worse for the pig that is slaughtered, even though I’m not so sure it’s aware of what’s about to happen.Kjersti: Yes they do – I think they are very aware.Jens: Yes, I’ve compared it in a way with concentration camps

during the war. For instance, in 1942 the Jews had no awareness that they would be sent to prison camps for destru4ion. 6ere was a Jewess in my class, but she managed to get to Sweden. I can’t remember her name but she graduated in 1942.Kjersti: What do you think about the death penalty?Jens: I think it’s damned awful. While at the same time when I

see a crappy film on TV, then, (laughs) you want the bad-guy to be shot. But this is about revenge… I’ve received a book about Rinnan 17. I’m very against hypeing up Rinnan and Quisling 18, because you see them everywhere! Out there, wherever there is confli4 and war – you’ll see them killing people. I wrote an ar-ticle comparing three philosophers in the yearbook for 1993. Pascal, Spinoza and Nietzsche. Nietzsche saw the world as an immoral place and I understood him as a kind of “Superman”, he who managed to survive in an immoral world. And Pascal was terrified by the fa4 that out in the universe there is com-plete silence. Spinoza was the only optimist.

17. Henry Oliver Rinnan 1915 -1947. Was a Gestapo agent in Norway during WW II. After the war he was executed by firing squad.18. Vidkun Abraham Lauritz Jonssøn Quisling 1887-1945. Was a Norwegian army o,cer and fascist politician that served as Minister President of German-occupied Norway during WW II, from 1942 to 1945. After the war Quisling was convicted of high treason and executed by firing squad. His surname has become an eponym for “traitor”.


Kjersti: What about you. Are you more like Nietzsche?Jens: I think the world is immoral. But there is no escaping

morals.Kjersti: What is moral really, and what is the relationship between

ethics and morals?Jens: Well they’re all just words that try to describe reality. I’m

sure within jurisprudence they have a lot of ethics, but it seems the law and morals don’t always see eye to eye.Kjersti: But what are morals?Jens: I think if you are intentionally mean towards someone,

then you’re immoral.Kjersti: So moral is about good and bad?Jens: 6at’s a very tricky subje4. “6e Axis of Evil” that Bush

tried on, that was codswallop. He tried to remind people of 6e Second World War and then we were supposed to fight Hitler all over again, psssh! Saddam Hussein didn’t stand a chance! So it was all unnecessary. In 6e Gulf War half a million people lost their lives. No newspaper write about that, but someone called Pringle 19 has written about it.Kjersti: When you enrolled into Milorg did you think that you

might have to kill another person?Jens: No, I thought more about someone shooting me and it

was a near-done thing, two in my Milorg group were taken. I was warned that I had to take o5. 6ey’d found my cover ad-dress too so it was just luck. One of them died in Germany, another came home weighing 30 kilos. Yes, no, I almost had a bad conscience that I hadn’t shot a single German when the war ended (both laugh). Yes, I said so several times.

19. Evelyn Pringle. Columnist for Independent Media TV and an investigative journalist focused on govern-ment corruption.


Kjersti: I found meeting with Carlton to be a very exi!ential experience.

Jens: Of course. he’s fighting for his life. And the death pen-alty is a really huge subje4.Kjersti: #e Supreme Court are going to decide about the lethal

inje%ion today.Jens: Do you want me to turn on text-tv?Kjersti: No they won’t announce their decision for a few months.Jens: Well, you know they’re always some smart-alecs. I think

I’ll go and have a look… Yes, here’s something! But it says the de-cision won’t be announced until June. So at least he’ll stay alive until June then!

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