Ram Jethmalani's RS Speech on Lokpal

8/3/2019 Ram Jethmalani's RS Speech on Lokpal

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-MKS-TMV-DS/4G/6.15

THE LOKPAL AND LOKAYUKTAS BILL, 2011 (CONTD.)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (RAJASTHAN): Mr. Chairman, Sir, better

late than never during the day.

Sir, I rise to explain why today I am totally opposed to this Bill. I

dont know whether we, all of us, realise that the country is passing

through a very critical moment in its history. It is that crucial moment

in our history where if we dont make a sensible response to the

imperatives of the situation, we shall suffer for years and years, if not

for decades, in the future. It is, therefore, necessary to understand

what are the essentials of the present situation which needs to be

dealt with by the united wisdom of this whole House, forgetting the

party loyalties, forgetting the party positions and, if necessary, rising

to the level of our total intellectual and moral independence.

Sir, let us go back to the history of corruption. Corruption is not

a discovery by Anna Hazare. It is not a discovery of the year 2010 or

2011. It was discovered long ago when India had one of the best

Prime Ministers that this country has ever produced. A better Prime

Minister than him, I believe, we have not produced till today, and that


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was the great Lal Bahadur Shastri. He was a Congress man and I

have been fighting the Congress for ages, but my respect for that

great Prime Minister of this country remains totally undiluted and in its

old pristine form. He was the one who warned the nation that

corruption had made progress at a galloping pace and it had risen

from the lowest levels to the highest decks of our political life. He

almost told us that it had reached the State and the Central

Government as well. Unfortunately, Providence did not spare him for

the good of the nation for long and, again, we relapsed into that

condition in which we were before he drew our attention to this great

disaster that was pending. An honest judge, quite a rarity, at some

time in our countrys history, honestly enforced the election law and

set aside the election of a Prime Minister of this country. What

happened? The Prime Minister who had sworn that the law and the

Constitution of this country would be preserved at all costs, instead of

meekly submitting to an honest court decision.... (Interruptions)...

THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR

RAVI): Are you disagreeing with the disqualification of the Prime

Minister? (Interruptions)... What is the reason for disqualification?

(Interruptions)... Do you agree with that, as a lawyer?


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SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am sorry, you know nothing about the

court work. (Interruptions)...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, please continue. (Interruptions)..

(Followed by 4H/VK)

VK/4H/6.20

(MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair)

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, the word * is unparliamentary.

Please remove it. (Interruptions). Sir, lakhs of people were sent to

jail during the Emergency. (Interruptions). He is proud of it!

SHRI BALAVANT ALIASAPTE: Sir, the word * is unparliamentary.

It should be immediately removed.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will look into it. If it is unparliamentary, it

will be removed.

SHRI RAVI SHANKAR PRASAD: Sir, it is unparliamentary. This word

* is unparliamentary.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am not worried about a little abuse

from anybody. I have withstood abuse all my life and I have done it

patiently. But ultimately it is those who abused me have suffered for it

in the rest of their life.


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Sir, the good people in this country were locked in our jails while

the bad people either kept quite or cooperated with what was

happening in the country. This was the result of the death of a great

Prime Minister, Shri Lal Bahadur Shastri, that corruption went on in

this country and there was zero tolerance for prevalence of corruption.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The word * is unparliamentary. It can

be removed.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Today, Anna Hazare has done one thing

that he has brought out the consciousness of the nation to this great

evil of corruption and even you have to pay a silent tribute to that man

because you said that you appointed a Group of Ministers to go into

the issue of corruption and study it. Obviously, you confess that

corruption has not gone down, that corruption has assumed such

proportions that it now requires to be seriously examined. That is your

confession by the very fact of the mention of this great Group of

Ministers appointed, of which my friend, Shri Narayanasamy, spoke

this morning. But I wish to give a bit of advice to Shri Narayanasamy

* Expunged as ordered by the Chair.


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because he is a very good friend of mine. When you want to introduce

a Bill, please make it as sweet as possible. You don't use that kind of

harsh language that you used this morning. Whatever sympathy

people had, you lost a bit of that sympathy. But, Sir, the fact remains

that the crowds that Anna Hazare collected and which you saw and

which did unnerve you because you went and touched his feet and

negotiated a settlement with him for a long time, those crowds did not

know anything about the Lokpal. What they knew was that they were

the sufferers of corruption in their everyday life. At a casual inquiry

from one of the persons present in the crowd, I asked, "Why are you

here in this crowd?" The man said, "Sir, don't ask me this. My

mother died and I went to take a death certificate to cremate my

mother. I was told to come the next morning. I had to fork out Rs.

1,000 before I could cremate my mother and get the death

certificate." This is the state of corruption today which is all

pervading. Please do not gloat over the fact which your Press has

now started circulating that Anna is no longer attracting crowds. The

crowds have lost their sense of novelty, but they have made up their

mind that they are going to throw out this Government in the next

election. Please be aware of it and speak in those terms that you are


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conscious of the people's wrath. My good friend, Dr. Abhishek

Singhvi, for whom I have such great respect...(Interruptions). Sir,

will you please stop them from disturbing me?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: It is very relevant. It may not be relevant to

you. Dr. Abhishek Singhvi is a very, very dear friend and a colleague

at the Bar. In a somewhat irrelevant context this morning during his

speech, he mentioned the great proverb that 'power corrupts and

absolute power corrupts absolutely'. I wish to remind my young friend

that this proverb has been amended long ago.

(Contd. By 4J)

RG/6.25/4J

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (contd.): I wish to remind him of the

amendment of that proverb. The amendment of that proverb is,

Power corrupts, but the prospect of losing power corrupts

absolutely.

So, now, we are meeting a situation of that tragic kind

with which we have to deal with. But, Sir, there is another aspect of

this corruption. While this corruption was growing by leaps and

bounds, what else was happening to the most important and

prestigious investigating agency of this country? I am talking of the


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CBI. The CBI was born, and it owes its origin to some corruption that

came to light during the years of war. Many people had made large,

illicit profits; they had to be hounded out and punished. Then, the CBI

was created for the first time to prosecute those people after securing

evidence of their conviction and guilt. Sir, I must record my

appreciation of the work which the CBI did for many years. I have

seen their investigations in the early years of my practice at the Bar.

They never arrested people. They never practiced third degree torture

against anybody. After completing their investigation in the most

lawful manner, they would submit a charge sheet in the Court and tell

the accused, Tomorrow, you come and appear in the Court. We are

submitting a charge sheet against you. That reputation, no longer,

exists. I wish to tell you now what the state of the CBI has become

today. One of the most important points which I wish to make is,

what should be done to the CBI and what should be done about the

CBI. In my dissenting note on the Report on the Lokpal Bill, which I

have submitted to the Standing Committee, I have written a three-

page long essay on the disgraceful state of affairs so far as the most

important investigating agency in this country is concerned. I had the

greatest respect for it once upon a time, and today, I am so utterly


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disappointed. But, I realize, we cannot do without the CBI. The CBI

has to exist as a primary investigating agency in this country. The

question is: What do you do about it? Why has it happened? I

believe that you must read with me two paragraphs. I want to inform

the House about the two judgements delivered by the Supreme Court,

one in the year 2000, in which they said, The CBI had to explain this

averment made in para 18 of the writ petition, if really it wanted to

convey to the Court as to the non-availability of Part II file. Further,

they said, That apart, the explanation given in the second affidavit of

CBI also discloses a sad state of affairs prevailing in the organization.

In that affidavit, CBI had stated before the Court that Part II file with

which the Court was concerned, was destroyed unauthorisedly with

an ulterior motive by none other than an official of CBI in collusion with

a senior officer of the same organisation which fact, if true, reflects

very poorly on the integrity of CBI. This was a judgement given in

2000, and I dont wish to bother the House with the sordid facts of the

case. Then, there was the earlier judgement in 1996, and that 1996

judgement was, perhaps, more vitriolic than even the 2000 judgement

in which they said, The High Court has disbelieved the version of the

CBI and has criticised it for suggesting such a funny explanation. A


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biased investigation of the type at hand from the CBI has, indeed,

pained us because the people of this country have still high hopes

from it which would get dashed if bias creeps into its investigations. I

dont wish to give the recent examples. The recent examples are too

recent, and they will, unnecessarily, irritate some persons who have

these false loyalties, false loyalties about which they are more

concerned. Sir, we cannot do away with the CBI. Whatever force

you substitute in its place will also, by some other name, remain the

CBI of the country.

(Continued by 4K)

Kgg/4k/6.30

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): I suggest; and, I am not

prepared to support this Bill until and unless at least two conditions

are satisfiedthat we must repeal section 4 of the Delhi Police

Establishment Act which was passed when the war ended and the

CBI was created as a force. It said in that section that the power of

superintendence shall be lodged and vested in the Central

Government. I suggest that this power must now be divested from the

Central Government. It must be transferred and vested in the Lokpal

which you create under the Lokpal Bill and that is the only way to


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make some changes in the character of the CBI. And I have no doubt

that the CBI will live up to it because in the CBI, I am afraid, there are

honourable people who are prepared to do their duty, but they are

prevented from doing their duty by the kind of association which they

seem to have with some of the Ministers in the Cabinet.

My friends in this House will today admit that there are acts of

corruption which the CBI should have detected long ago, which now

the Supreme Court claims to have detected. That is why the present

failure of the CBI. Sir, make the CBI independent; subject the power

of superintendence vested in the Lokpal and that will remove a good

part of at least my objections to this kind of a Bill. The CBI is willing to

be relieved; there are honest people in the CBI who come and tell me,

We wish to be relieved from this incubus; we are prepared to go and

work under the Lokpal, if necessary. But, somebody must make up

his mind and to speak the truth and say that the CBI should remain an

independent organisation. The ex-Chief Justice of India, Shri Verma,

said the other day that the CBI today is not independent. It is not

independent because of the misuse of the power under section 4,

which the Central Government exercises habitually. There are other

powers which the Central Government inevitably possesses over the


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CBI. These powers have to be relegated to some other body

altogether.

Then, Sir, the latest friend, Mr. Narayanasamy, I want to

communicate some facts to you, while present in this House, which

probably even you may not know as a Minister. Sir, reliance has been

placed on what? On trying to take away the autonomy of the States,

their legislative independence and autonomy which the Constitution

creates, which nobody is in a position to destroy. What are you relying

upon? You are relying upon the Convention Against Corruption which

the U.N. has passed. Therefore, you claim that this is legislation under

article 253 of the Constitution of India.


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Sir, the biggest * which this Government has perpetrated on

this nation is about what you have done to this Convention. This

Convention was promulgated by the U.N. many years ago. It was

promulgated by the year 2003, but it was late in the year 2003 the

Government then in power was busy in organizing the next years

elections and they did not have much time. But, this Convention

became ready for ratification in the year 2005. In 2005, your

Government was in power. When did you ratify it? You took six years

to ratify! From 2005 to 2011, what were you doing? When this

Convention was open, you did not choose to ratify it and you ratified it

when? You ratified it, for the first time, four or five days before the

Supreme Court was to deliver its judgment on the black money case.

By your secret sources of information, which are superior to the

sources of anybody else, you must have discovered what the

Supreme Court is going to hold against you. The Supreme Court

delivered a thumping judgment in which they said that your

Government has done nothing to recover this money which is stashed

in foreign banks.

-----------------------------------

* Expunged, as ordered by the Chair. (Contd. by tdb/4l)


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TDB-MP/4L/6.35

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI (CONTD.): And, may I remind you that the

talk about money being stashed in foreign banks arose for the first

time in 1991. It arose as a result of the pressure of democracies in the

world over the Swiss banking system. The Swiss always claimed and

became rich by mentioning to everybody that we respect the

customers confidentiality. Vast amounts of wealth from all over the

world, illicit wealth of smugglers, of prostitution dealers, of drug

dealers, all came to the Swiss Bank. The Swiss became rich, but

somehow, sometimes, even the owners of the bank account died

without their heirs knowing what money has been left. Switzerlands

prosperity depended upon these secret bank accounts. But the

House would be glad to know that the world democracies realised that

this is a great fraud on the people of the world. If there is destitution, if

there is poverty, if there is this demeaning living condition in which

even a beast will revolt, it is because of the corruption that moneys are

brought from all over the world and stashed in these accounts. I am

ashamed as an Indian citizen, and you ought to be a little more

ashamed than me that in 1991, the most prestigious paper in the

country of Switzerland, a magazine whose name I have forgotten, it will


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be found in one of my articles, that magazine gave the names, the

photographs, the bank account numbers, the amounts in the bank

accounts of 14 international thugs. Sir, I am ashamed to say that the

fourteenth person, the fourteenth-named person was * They are not

prepared to tell the people of this country the stark truth which you ought

to know. (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF OVERSEAS INDIAN AFFAIRS (SHRI VAYALAR

RAVI): Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions) Sir, I am on a point

of order. (Interruptions) He cant say all this. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have to substantiate it. (Interruptions)

SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: You were the Law Minister.

(Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, he cannot make allegations on the * of

the country.

SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: Sir, he has not mentioned the name of any *

(Interruptions) Why are they guilty conscious? (Interruptions)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: If you want, I will produce... (Interruptions)


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They know the name. (Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, he cannot make allegation on the *

of the country on the basis of reports published in a magazine.

(Interruptions)

SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: Why are they guilty conscious?

AN HON. MEMBER: He was the Joint Secretary, and, perhaps, he

knows the name also. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: You were the Law Minister.

(Interruptions) Just because some newspapers published this story...

(Interruptions) You are just fighting some old case which you have

lost. (Interruptions) You are unable to prove any of the...

(Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, the tragedy of this country is that we

have great orators of this kind. (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF SHIPPING (SHRI G.K. VASAN): Sir, it should be

expunged. (Interruptions)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Sir, I have a point of order. (Interruptions)


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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What exactly is your point of order?

(Interruptions) Please speak, one-by-one. (Interruptions) What is your

point of order?

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, my point of order is, he cannot make an

allegation on a former * without any evidence. On the basis of a report

published in a magazine or newspaper, he cannot make these

allegations. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, all this has to be removed.

(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You have to substantiate your point.

(Interruptions)

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, you please expunge it from the record.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will examine it. (Interruptions) I will examine

it. (Interruptions) I will examine the word because without

substantiating it, you cannot say this. (Interruptions) You have not

substantiated it. See, in all fairness, it is not correct to bring the name

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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of the * of the country, and then... (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, he is the most * (Interruptions)

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, he is making personal allegations.

(Interruptions)

: , , refer

....()... ,

...()...

(Followed by 4m-nbr)

-TDB/NBR-SC/4M/6.40.

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, no name has been taken

...(Interruptions)...Why this reaction?...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But, you are drawing the * into

it!...(Interruptions)...It is not correct ...(Interruptions)...It is not in

good taste ...(Interruptions)...* ?

..()..Remove the word *...(Interruptions)...

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: If they don't want to run the House, let

them adjourn it...(Interruptions)...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is no question of including that

word. Remove it...(Interruptions)...

: ?..()..

..()..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Whether you want to continue with the

debate or not...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, I am prepared to use the word ** as a

meaning for 'honest.' And, in that sense, I say that he is

honest...(Interruptions)...You are honest ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: *

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, what is this? ...(Interruptions)...What

language is he using? ...(Interruptions)...What is he talking about?

...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It has not gone on the record

...(Interruptions)...Nothing should go on record

...(Interruptions)...Nothing should go on record ...(Interruptions)...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

** Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

* Not recorded.


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SHRI PYARIMOHAN MOHAPATRA: *


SHRI B.S. GNANADESIKAN: *

SHRI SHANTARAM NAIK: *

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: *

SHRI MOHD. ALI KHAN: *

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mohapatra, please

...(Interruptions)...Please you address the Chair

...(Interruptions)...That has been removed ...(Interruptions)...That

has been removed ...(Interruptions)...Please sit

down...(Interruptions)...All the objectionable words have been

removed ...(Interruptions)...Mr. Mohapatra, please sit down

...(Interruptions)...Please address the Chair ...(Interruptions)...That

has been removed ...(Interruptions)... Please sit down


SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: *

* Not recorded.


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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down

...(Interruptions)...Please sit down...(Interruption)...All the words

have been removed from the record ...(Interruptions)...Nothing has

gone on record ...(Interruptions)...


: ..().. ..()..

: **

? ..().. **

..().. **

- ..()..

: ..().. ,

..().., ..()..That has also

gone...(Interruptions)... Please sit down, Mr. Mani Shankar

Aiyar...(Interruptions)...Tiwariji, are you really interested in the

debate or you want to score point on each other? ...(Interruptions)...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

** Expunged as ordered by the Chair.

* Not recorded.


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SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, you tell this to them

...(Interruptions)... ..()..MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Shivanand Tiwari, please sit

down...(Interruptions)...Nothing will go on record


SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Don't use the * language


: ..().. Please conclude now

...(Interruptions)...I think, your party has only seven minutes

...(Interruptions)...Your party has seven minutes ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: You cut out this from my time


SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, you remove this *

episode...(Interruptions)...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your party has seven minutes

...(Interruptions)...Please sit down ...(Interruptions)... Please sit

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down...(Interruptions)...I cannot allow all this

...(Interruptions)...Your party has seven minutes ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, seven minutes plus seven minutes.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, now, let me talk of the *. The * is that

on the 30th August, 2010, the Government of India and the Swiss

Federal Council signed a Protocol which would amend the existing

Double Taxation Avoidance Treaty. It is important to know what you

achieved by this and what you intended to achieve by this.

Sir, the Germans broke the Swiss secrecy laws by bribing an

employee of a Swiss bank giving him US $ 475 million as a price for

disclosing the names...(Interruptions)...

SHRI P. KANNAN: Give evidence.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I will give you all evidence. I have been

writing about it. You don't have the courage even to reply.

Sir, US $ 475 million were paid to a Swiss employee. The Swiss

employee gave the names of the account holders in that bank. The

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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German Government announced ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI P. KANNAN: That is whom?...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am prepared to repeat this outside the

court; sue me if you have the courage ...(Interruptions)...Sue me

outside.

SHRI P. KANNAN: He must prove it...(Interruptions)...He must give

evidence...(Interruptions)...

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: I am not bound to give it to you

...(Interruptions)...I will give it outside ...(Interruptions)... We have

given it to the court ...(Interruptions)...

(FOLLOWED BY USY "4N")

-NBR-USY/MCM/4N/6.45

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: He is accusing the Government of

India of committing *. (Interruptions) That is a word which is not

justified. It is irrelevant. (Interruptions) It is unparliamentary.

(Interruptions) I suggest you, Sir, to please ask him to stop.

(Interruptions)

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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The word * has already been removed.

(Interruptions) It is unparliamentary; we are removing it.

(Interruptions) Mr. Jethmalani, I request you not to use the

unparliamentary words. (Interruptions) It has already been declared

that this word is unparliamentary. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, you should not curtail my time for

these disturbances. (Interruptions) The Government of Germany has

made an announcement that whichever friendly country wants to

know the names of these * from their own country, they are prepared

to give that information.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Government of Germany did not use

the word *. (Interruptions) .......()

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, those who have committed the act of

pilfering the assets of the poor people of this country, for them the

Government of Germany said that they are prepared to give that

information to every friendly country that wants to know those names.

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The Americans have got those names. The Swiss have got those

names. The Germans have got those names. The French have got

those names. Many countries, in Europe, have got those names. The

Americans arrested the officers of that bank and they gave them

conditional bail on the condition that every week they would give them

more and more names. (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: I have a point to make, Sir.

(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mani Shankar Aiyar, you make your

point of order according to rules. (Interruptions) If you want to raise

any point of order, please tell me the rule I will look into it.

(Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, my point of order is that no one

can speak... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You please tell me the number.

(Interruptions) Under which rule? (Interruptions) You tell me what

the unparliamentary expression is, I will remove that from the record.

(Interruptions) I have removed the unparliamentary expressions.

(Interruptions) All that has been taken care of. (Interruptions)

: , ......()


27/38

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Nothing will go on record. (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, on 30th

of August, 2010, the

Government of India entered into a protocol with the Swiss that

protocol document has been produced on the Floor of this House. It

is available for anybody. The protocol says that we shall not seek any

information about the past; we shall seek information only about the

future. (Interruptions) They are talking about the Double Taxation

Avoidance Treaty, which applies to a businessman who is an honest

businessmen. But because of his Indian nationality, he is being taxed

in India and, at the same time, because of the place of his business he

is being taxed by Germany also. The same income is being taxed in

two countries. For avoidance of that there is Double Taxation

Avoidance Treaty. Under that Treaty, there is a mutual obligation of

sharing information, but the information can only be used for tax

purposes. We are not seeking... (Interruptions)

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, the board says that he has no

more time. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I know. (Interruptions) Mr. Mani

Shankar Aiyar, please sit down. (Interruptions) Please sit down.

(Interruptions)


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(Contd. by 4o PK)

-USY/PK-GS/6.50/4O

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (CONTD.): Please sit down.

..(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

: , 10 ...()...

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Exactly ten minutes. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, I will give you another five

minutes. ..(Interruptions)... Please conclude within five minutes.

..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: But why? ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: Sir, I object to this.

..(Interruptions).. Why should he be given five minutes?

..(Interruptions).. Your board shows.. ..(Interruptions)..

AN HON. MEMBER: They have disturbed.... ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Who are they? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

Please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. I cant

differentiate...(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions).. It

is debate. ..(Interruptions).. Please sit down. ..(Interruptions)..

Dont force me to..... ..(Interruptions)..


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SHRI MANI SHANKAR AIYAR: What is this, Sir? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please Mr. Mani Shankar, I request you....

..(Interruptions).. Dont tell me... ..(Interruptions)..

AN HON. MEMBER: You will decide, Sir, not he. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.

...()...

DR. V. MAITREYAN: They dont want to discuss. ..(Interruptions)..

They are disrupting the House. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, 15 minutes have been wasted.

..(Interruptions)..

DR. V. MAITREYAN: They dont want to discuss. ..(Interruptions)..

They know that they will be defeated. ..(Interruptions)..


..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Venkaiah Naidu, please sit down.

..(Interruptions).. Obstruction is from both the sides. When they

speak, you obstruct. ..(Interruptions).. No, no. ..(Interruptions)..

AN HON. MEMBER: Sir, we have not disturbed at all.

..(Interruptions)..


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MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: In the House, we are seeing obstructions

from both the sides. ..(Interruptions).. When they speak, you

obstruct. ..(Interruptions).. If it is not palatable to you, you object

and if it not palatable to them, they object. ..(Interruptions)..

Obstructions are there. Please conclude. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI VIKRAM VERMA: But there has been continuous disruption for

15 minutes. ..(Interruptions)..


...(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, no. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Go through the record, Sir.

..(Interruptions).. About 15 minutes have been wasted.

..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Venkaiah Naidu, I have seen the

records. That is why, I said five minutes. ..(Interruptions)..

SHRI M. VENKAIAH NAIDU: Sir, they obstructed. ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, he has got up. Why is he

obstructing? ..(Interruptions).. The Chair is there and the principal

speaker is there. It is between them. ..(Interruptions).. Why do

others get up? ..(Interruptions)... First, you got up, then, they got


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up. You get up, they get up. ..(Interruptions).. How can I run the

House this way? ..(Interruptions).. If you dont cooperate, how can

the Chair run the House? .(Interruptions)..

DR. V. MAITREYAN: Sir, they have more responsibility.

..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Who asked you to get up and say?

..(Interruptions).. I have not called you. ..(Interruptions).. It is Shri

Jethmalani who has to speak. ..(Interruptions)..SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, in what form, do you want my

cooperation, may I know? ..(Interruptions)..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why are your Members getting up?

..(Interruptions).. Why did you get up? ..(Interruptions)..

: ...()... ,

, ...()...

, ...()...

: ...().... . : , ? ...()... ,

...()...

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jethmalani, please conclude.


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SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: Sir, after having made this bilateral treaty

with Switzerland, under which they gave up the right to ask for

information - we would not ask information about the past from you;

we will ask information only about the futureafter having signed this

document, when they came to ratify the Convention, in the

ratification, they added a condition that if there is a bilateral treaty

between the two Nations (Time-bell) the Convention does not

apply.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please conclude.

SHRI RAM JETHMALANI: This is the deception which has been

practised. After ratification, the Prime Minister went to the Press and

said, See, we have ratified the Convention after five years. This

shows that we are very much against corruption. But this is the great

act of deception. I have not trusted this Government ever.

Therefore, I say that we shall not support this Bill under any

circumstances.

(Ends)

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Rajeev Shukla.

(Followed by 4P/PB)


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is conflict of interest. This is number one. ...(Interruptions)...

Number two is, judicial decision is pending in the court in the other

Bench. ...(Interruptions)... It is a conflict of interest. How can he

raise the issue in this House? And, judicial decision is also pending.

...(Interruptions)... Therefore, it should be expunged from the

record. ...(Interruptions)... Sir, I want your ruling.

...(Interruptions)... Sir, I want your ruling on that. He is a Counsel

appearing in black monies case. ...(Interruptions)... There is a

conflict of interest. So, whatever he spoke on that should be removed

from the record. ...(Interruptions)... Number one, there is a judicial

decision pending. The matter has gone to the larger Bench.

Therefore, he cannot raise the issue; on two counts, Ram

Jethmalanis speech on black money should be removed.

...(Interruptions)... The judicial decision is pending.

...(Interruptions)... Therefore, it should be removed from the record.

...(Interruptions)... I want your ruling on that.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will have to examine it. I will give a ruling

on it. I will examine it. ...(Interruptions)... Please. Mr. Rajeev

Shukla. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: There is conflict of interest.


35/38

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As far as conflict of interest is concerned,

it is for the Members to declare the conflict of interest before making

... ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Let him say. ...(Interruptions)... Let him

say. ...(Interruptions)...

:

...()..

: , ...()

: , ..().. I will

have to warn you. I will have to warn you. ...(Interruptions)... Mr.

Katiyar, please dont show this. ...()..

...().. I have not called you. I have not called you.


: ...()..

...().. ?

...().. : ,

...().. ,

...().. ...()..

: ? ..()..


36/38

: ,

..()...: ..()..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He had asked for a point of order.


:

...()..

: ..()..

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please. Mr. Narayanasamy, I have seen

the Rule. It is regarding ... ...(Interruptions)... Please. Please.

Please. ...(Interruptions)... ...()..

Please. ...(Interruptions)... Mr. Narayanasamy, please sit down.

...(Interruptions)... Please sit down. Please sit down. Mr.

Narayanasamy, under Rule 238, you have said that there is conflict of

interest. It is for the Member to declare his conflict of interest before

making any statement in the House, and if a Member fails to declare a

conflict of interest ... ...(Interruptions)... You have brought it to the

notice. ...(Interruptions)...


37/38

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: Sir, I made two points. Another point is,

judicial decision is pending. ...(Interruptions)... That is also there.


MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You raised it after ...

....(Interruptions)... You raised it ... ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY: No; no; judicial decision is also pending.


THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION (SHRI ARUN JAITLEY): Sir,

the hon. Minister who has moved this Bill is raising these objections.

What is, in nutshell, his objection? His objection is that outside this

House, Mr. Ram Jethmalani is crusading against corruption,

petitioning against corruption. ...(Interruptions)... Therefore, in this

House, he must not speak against corruption. ...(Interruptions)...

, conflict of interest

,

...(Interruptions)... Does it behove the Minister who is incharge of the CBI to raise an objection like this that you are crusading

against corruption outside, so dont raise the issue of corruption

inside? ...(Interruptions)...

(Followed by 4q/SKC)


38/38

Documents

Ram Jethmalani's RS Speech on Lokpal