Commissioner Gamaliel Cordoba

Page | 562nd Public Hearing on the Memorandum Order No. 07-07-2011

Re: Minimum Speed of Broadband ConnectionsTSN/February 16, 2015

REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES

NATIONAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

Quezon City

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2nd PUBLIC HEARING ON THE MEMORANDUM ORDER NO. 07-07-2011 RE: MINIMUM SPEED OF BROADBAND CONNECTIONS----------------------------------------------------------

T R A N S C R I P T

OF THE STENOGRAPHIC NOTES TAKEN DURING THE PUBLIC HEARING ON FEBRUARY 16, 2015 AT 9:57 IN THE MORNING, BEFORE ALL CONCERNED OFFICIALS AND REPRESENTATIVE OF DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT AGENCIES ON THE MEMORANDUM ORDER NO. 07-07-2011

RE: MINIMUM SPEED OF BROADBAND CONNECTIONS-----------------------------------------------------------COMMISSIONER =

Welcome to NTC for our second public hearing on this item. Thank you very much to Senator Bam Aquino for visiting us again and for assisting us in this issuance of the proposed Memorandum Circular in Minimum Speed for Broadband Connection. Now, our timeline Mr. Senator, is to be able to issue this within March because we will need time to be able to buy the equipment by June or July so we can roll-out.(cont.Commissioner)

And before that, Senator Bam would give us some welcome message.

SEN. AQUINO =

Good morning to all our friends in NTC and of course to all the resource speakers. As I mentioned in the previous hearing, I will be just an observer here. And we would just like to make sure that our hearings in the Senate and the hearings here ay hindi naman po nagkakalayo and that we are really on top of everything and well coordinated with all the agencies and the private sector. Again our only goal here is that we have to have a policy that will be fair to our consumers and to our constituents and this Memorandum Circular for minimum speed I think is just one of the main steps we need to under go to ensure a better internet infrastructure for our people. But definitely, if we could come out with this and empower our consumers to also not feel so powerless when it comes to service interruptions or low quality of service that they come across, to empower them with a tool or with better coordination with the government agencies. I think it will go a long way as we work towards producing better internet infrastructure in our country. We all know that our over-all goal probably would not happen in a few months. It will take maybe a year or even more to really have the best infrastructure in the Philippines to service our constituents. But in the mean time, let us make sure that our people do not feel powerless with what is happening and as we also know now that a lot of young people spend a lot of their money on load and internet so we also want to make sure that our countrymen who are spending their hard-earned money in very essential product or service really get what is due to them. We have fair (cont.Sen.Aquino)

regime for everyone, for the private sector, the constituents and of course the government agencies serving as the great arbiter of all these things. So again, I would like to thank Commissioner Gamaliel and the rest of the Deputy Commissioners and the NTC for having us again here. Thank you and we look forward to this hearing. COMMISSIONER =

Thank you very much Sir. We have here Deputy Commissioner Deles and Deputy Commissioner Martinez. We also have Director Egay Cabarios from Regulation Branch. Maybe we can start by introducing our selves.

MR. YU =

Good morning Senator, Commissioners and everyone. I am Winthrop Yu from Internet Society Philippine Chapter. MR. CALRDERON =

Good morning Senator and Commissioners, I am Ronald Calderon from Department of Trade Industry Consumer Protection Group. ATTY. IBAY =

Good morning your Honors, Atty. Roy Ibay from the PLDT Group.ATTY. LIM =

Good morning Mr. Senator and Commissioners, good morning everybody. Derek Lim of Globe Telecom.

MR. ACERO =

Good morning Commissioners and Senator, Francis Acero from Democracy.net.ph.MS. SANTOS =

Good morning Senator, good morning Commissioners, Mary Grace Santos, Independent Researcher and Research Fellow of Learn Asia. MR. LOGOC =

Hi! Good morning! Mon Logoc from the Office for Competition from DOJ. MR. RAPADAS =

Good morning, I am Don Rapadas from UP MassCom and from the Philippine Apple Users Group. COMMISSIONER =

So welcome here in our office. Sir, I will be turning over the chair to Director Edgardo Cabarios who has studied the technical aspects of this memorandum circular. He will be conducting the hearing and because I will be also having my own questions and clarifications. DIR. CABARIOS =

Thank you so much Sir. We have circulated the draft MC and the explanatory note explaining the draft MC. We have so far received six (6) comments from six (6) individuals and entities. From Democracy.Net, Democracy.Net submitted draft MC consisting of eleven (11) sets of rules. LIRNasia through Ms. Mary Grace Santos, has recommended several points. On service reliability, she said that it should be differentiated between fixed and mobile, on latency and on benchmark, etc. PAPTELCO is of its opinion that there is no need for the MC because it is a value-added service. Carlos Nazareno has suggested of the minimum target latencies. PLDT has the opinion that NTC should be the one to prescribe the download speed, upload speed, reliability and availability and suggested that test should be conducted taking into the consideration the uncontrollable variables, those not within the control of the TelCos. And we have also received a comment from Globe Telecoms, who of course commented on the draft MC. Globe is seeking clarification based on the 50% alleging the current international practice for minimum actual downstream and upstream data rates is anywhere between 10% to 30% of advertised Up to data rates. (cont.Dir.Cabarios)Considering all of these comments, we have adopted or used as working draft the draft submitted by Democracy.net.ph. It should however not to be construed as the position of the Commission at this time. The draft MC, we have deleted the rules on data capping and fair-use policy in view of the advisory number 2 released by the Department of Justice advising that TelCo should refrain from offering unlimited services if the intention is not really to offer unlimited services. Rules for refund and rebate has been modified because refund and rebate should only be imposed on non-service availability. Non-compliance to minimum service performance is a replacement of the rules and should be if proven to be violated, sanctions pursuant to law should be imposed. On the request for service standards adjustment, I think we should not allow service adjustments once the minimum service performance standard is prescribed, then there should be no service standards adjustment anymore. On the transparency and compliance, the results of the test shall be published in the NTC website and release to public and media upon request. So on the draft MC, all definition of terms, we may of course seek the consensus on the definition of terms. The rules and regulations will also seek consensus on that one. The parameter is to be measure; there are three (3) proposals here. Proposal to measure data rate reliability, service reliability and over-all reliability and the suggested minimum standard of PRR is SR is 80% and OR is also 80%. A close look on this requirement will show that for you to define the 80% minimum for Over-all Reliability, you must have at least 90% PRR and 90% SR. If you have 100% SR, the PRR can go to not less than 80%. So the requirement seems to be very tough this time but we have to get concensus on this one. The other thing that we should get consensus on is whether or not we have to (cont.Dir.Cabarios)

prescribe minimum standard for mobile. If we have to prescribe standard to mobile but what those standards should be? And then one of the suggestions here is that the NTC shall perform test measurements. As suggested, the software that would be used for this test may be made available so that the consumers or users can download it and verify it by them selves. The official results would come from the Commission. And the period of measurement is not daily but monthly. Results will be released on or before the fifth day from the last day of the month. Of course, the suggestion of Globe and PLDT that the measurement should take into consideration the uncontrollable variables those within the control of the consumers or users. So this in effect, is this one perhaps we can open discussions on the draft MC now. MR. ACERO =May we start first with what was excluded, regarding to Globe that data volume capping is not just limited to unlimited offers. Experince in International, especially in the United States so that data volume capping can happen even without this unlimited offers, at least this condition. So we would like to request the Commission to reconsider its exclusion just to serve as guide for the future data cappling scenario. Because as our infrastructure becomes better, we become more and more dependent on the services. We expect that from some point that if the CapEx is not sufficient to give up with that merging of its conditional convergent then we will bump into this problem again. SEN. AQUINO =

May I ask what your actual suggestion is?

MR. ACERO =

To put on some provisional data capping. From what I understand, data capping provisions were taken out because DOJ puts on Circular on advertising. What I am saying is kasi I think, from what Director Egay was saying here is because it is already in the DOJ circular. But, correct me if I am wrong, DOJ circular is more on the advertisements. So what we are saying is guidelines for data volume capping is not just with regards to advertisements.

SEN. AQUINO =

Actually, if I may share, my brother was a classmate of Commissioner Cordoba, who lives in Jakarta, they do not have unlimited offers there. What they have is speed dependent on speed which has the corresponding data act. So the highest speed for the first, for example is 2 GB. And then a lower speed after that is 7GB and after say a really large number of 10GB for month they go to GPRS levels. And that is openly stated in their contract with the TelCo. So more or less that is data capping; that is a fair use policy which says of what is clearly stated and with guidelines and what you are saying is NTC should have a guideline on that not just on the advertisement but on general. MR. ACERO =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

But to the specific guidelines, you do not have suggestions yet?

MR. ACERO =

We do, it is on our draft MC.

MS. SANTOS =

Good morning everyone. Again, I am Ms. Mary Grace Santos. I am here as a research fellow of LIRN Asia. We submitted our position to the NTC regarding the MC. Unfortunately I read the revised MC just today so I have some quick comments. There are some, I think, things that Director Egay mentioned that were not in the MC. But I think the NTC is considering some measures in terms of Consumer Centric Initiatives that is very important because I think I speak for everyone here that the main reason that we have such MC is so that the consumers will be protected and will get what they paid for. So just a few comments, while the MC provides that the consumers will be informed of the internet service that will be offered to them, I noticed that it make no mention of how the consumers can determine or prove for themselves that the quality of the internet service connection that they actually get than they actually receive is substandard compared to (cont.Ms.Santos)what is in the standard set by the NTC. In short, I think there seems to be no room for consumer participation and feedback based on the revised MC that I just read. To iritirate LIRNasias position while we maintain that it is the regulator that is mandated to assure and monitor the standard of internet service, we iritirate that consumers education is very important and because it is the only way that consumers can hold the operator as accountable for the service that they are paying for. Ideally, mechanism to run the diagnostics will be provided to the public. You mentioned this in your statement earlier but I do not see it in the MC. So ideally, the diagnostics tool will be provided to the consumers maybe through software or web page mechanism so that they can also contribute to the collection of broadband quality. I think this model is being done in other countries wherein consumers will participate in providing data but the results of the measurement being done by the regulators are the one considered as official result. Number two (2) comment, the MC also mentioned that the NTC should be the one to determine the official data rate. Shall be the one to determine the monitoring tool and also it will be the one to conduct the measurement itself. However, the MC, it think, failed to mention the methodology. LIRNasias position that is submitted was very particular about the importance of the methodology because we want to make sure that we have a large data set enough to determine the average of result because as we all know measuring quality of service this very location specific, time specific, and time sensitive, and only depends on the conditions of where the subscriber is when the test is being done. So for example the methodology is to include the number of times, multiple times the measurement it will be done. And you said it is five (5) times a month. We want to know how would determine this five (5) times. Wether (cont.Ms.Santos)this would also include the peak hours of each hours. Weekends and weekdays because measurement really depends on those. Also, you mentioned something about publishing the results, the MC said via website, but you also mentioned, Dir. Egay, that copies of the results will be provided to all consumers upon request. We suggest that results be provided in all forms in different formats. Not by request but by probably, the NTC can consider just publishing the results without having to wait for requests. Also how can the consumers use the results to make informed decisions at the end of the day? So I hope that the results will be in a format that the consumers can digest and can easily understand. I mean, in terms of what is the implication if they see that the NTCs measurement for example is this and that? Or the service reliability is X. So how will that be relevant to the consumers? So if I am a student, trying to choose between three mobile broadband, how will those results help me in ensuring that this is probably the best plan for me or this is probably the best ISP for me. Lastly, may I reiterate the need also to look at other critical matrix. In the Philippines, for example, I think it is important to look at the latency. Because latency, as everyone in this room would know, measures how long a packet takes to reach the destinations recur and returns to the client. And this is very important for browsing and I think all internet users we all do browsing. In fact, if you look at the general use of mobile broadband in line of the free data, free internet services, all of those things are dependent on browsing. And also, sorry I said finally but this is my last point, may I also suggest that the NTC, I do not know if this can be required, but I guess request the service providers if not require them to measure and publish their typical average speed for plan. This can be done per location actually, in a city for example, would it be possible for PLDT, Globe, and (cont.Ms.Santos)Sun to publish what their typical average speed is per particular location. Again, this is for the purpose of the goal of informing the consumers on how to make their decisions in buying particular service. Thank you. SEN. AQUINO =

I may respond, or I may add? I may add to the last point, that was also one of the things we talked about in the hearing that if every area we could actually say or tell what the average speed is in the particular area because for business owners and for those who wants to invest, mahalagang mahalaga ang impormayong iyon. And it also supports TelCos do what for the infrastructure in those areas kung mabagal talaga yung published rate doon and there is also political pressure on the side of Local Government Unit kung wala pong ganito, they will put up more infrastructure. So I would really support that in every area we do have a published rate or yung published speed. Kung ano yung parang critical average speed of each of the TelCos in mobile broadband in a particular area. Maybe in the next couple of years, it is a determiner if you want to live in that city or not kung mabilis o mabagal yung internet sa lugar na yon. But on that note, the testing that we will do or that we are plan to do before we doing it monthly, will that disaggregate per area kung ano yung speed? Does our equipment have that capability to be able to say for this particular period, ito yung average speed in this particular area or is that national average or with in Metro Manila speed? DIR. CABARIOS =

Thank you very much Sir. It would be Metro Manila average speed. If there is a need to, because when you conduct test, it should not be known to the TelCos where the test will be conducted. So if you do it Metro Manila wide, then the result will be Metro Manila wide. Of course it can also be done per area, but it should not be known as I have said by the TelCos. SEN. AQUINO =

Engineer, is that software based tool or is that a hardware based tool? Meaning, are we physically transporting something or there will be a software that we can use in our telephones/mobile phones or computer?

DIR. CABARIOS =The plan Sir is to purchase a monitoring equipment together with the software. So I think what shall be done is to make known to the supplier the software is to be owned by the Commission and should be open to the public to download the software.SEN. AQUINO =

So it is hardware and software?

DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir. Hardware and software.

SEN. AQUINO =

Yes. But the software is downloadable to the public, for example, I am currently in Davao, I could check it using the information that goes through the hardware or is the hardware needed to be on the same location that is being tested?

DIR. CABARIOS =

We shall make it a point that in the TOR the software should not have a specific position.SEN. AQUINO =

So you can test anywhere?

DIR. CABARIOS =

It will be included in TOR you can test anywhere.

SEN. AQUINO =

And the hardware does not need to be in the area where the testing is? It can be based here in the headquarters?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.SEN. AQUINO =

So at least, to clarify it is not only for Metro Manila figures. As long as you are testing in the particular location, you can get the information. The question is who will conduct the test or who will initiate the testing?

DIR. CABARIOS =

The Commission will do the test and make the official test agency we will be publishing the official results.SEN. AQUINO =

And does the NTC have the satellite offices? I am not familiar yet, Regional offices Provincial Offices?DIR. CABARIOS =

We have fifteen (15) regional offices. SEN. AQUINO =

Ok. So at the minimum there are 15 provinces of 15 cities that you can test without any further support. DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

But you can also deploy some of your personnel in other provinces to check. Is that possible?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

Ok so their concern is that it is not necessary that monthly sa NCR, this is monthly, once a month lang ang test but it will done in multiple areas?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes the test can be done daily but the result average will be on monthly basis.SEN. AQUINO =

So it will not be tested once a month, so if across the perioed but will just publish it once a month.

DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir. Because the more data gathered the better. You can get more accurate result.SEN. AQUINO =That is right. And probably the mathematics says that you need a larger data set to be fair to the service providers. Tama ano Sir?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.SEN. AQUINO =

So I think the question lang now is if we will allow the consumers a users interface so they can also do testing on their own. I would support that because people want to know what speed they are getting. I would also like to suggest if you want to make a part of the process and DTI is here, may be we would make the first step, check muna kung ano yung dun sa App ng NTC kung ano yung nakukuha mong speed and if it is below a certain level, I think it would be 1Mbps in broadband so if it is below 1, that can be like a recursor to file a complaint. But if it does not fall below that number, then, it can be like the first step. Para meron ding consumer participation. That is the first thing to do. If you feel na mabagal, you go to the app, check the speed and that determines right away kung actionable or not. Siguro, if I may just add a reflection like we were saying, kung absolutely walang service, that is the (cont.Sen.Aquino)

time where the consumer can get a refund. But if that is just a slow-service, fine from NTC. How could it be determined? Yung no service tska slow-service. DIR. CABARIOS =

Yung no service, normally subscribers complain no service and we can of course verify it if there is really no service. And pursuant to General Order Number 1 of the then Public Service Commission, if the service is not available for at least 24 hours, it is subject to rebate. SEN. AQUINO =

And meron pong reasonability test naman po iyon diba? Kung nasa basement level ka ng under ground parking tapos doon ka nagtetest, hindi naman fair yun diba?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

So there is a reasonability test. So when somebody complains, that investigation becomes part of the process. Kung saan ka ba nagtest. Was that a reasonable place, etc. Then if talagang walang service in an open area na dapat meron ng right to ask for a refund. Pero kung may complain regarding mas mababa doon sa published speed for example, what would be the process there?DIR. CABARIOS =

I think the process, Sir, is there is a violation, so case will be filed against the TelCo. And the local process will proceed so if found to have violated with the rules, then sanctions will be imposed.SEN. AQUINO=

Then that would mean over a period of time? Tama po diba? Kasi papasok pa yun sa 80% or 50% reliability. So meaning, ok na. So for example, 10:37 Quezon City, mabagal. Then I called the hotline, mabagal, merong problema. Chineck yung app ninyo, and ayun cheneck mabagal nga sya. So it take forms part of your data set to determine kung dapat ngang i-fine yung TelCo or hindi. Tama po ba yun? Kasi hindi naman magpa-fine yung TelCo based on one (1) consumer complaint, right? DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir. It will be based on the test also conducted by the NTC.SEN. AQUINO =

Ok. So at the end of the day, complaints just add to the evidence if there is an evidence na for that particular period, hindi pumasok sa service reliability and sa other factors, tama po? So you cannot find this, correct me if I am wrong, with this set-up, you cannot fine based on one (1) complain. DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes your Honor. There should be investigation.SEN. AQUINO =

So there should be the aggregated data of the NTC that will determine if for a period, that was monthly, there is a violation in the services.DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

But then, if that happens, PhP200.00 lang yun.DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir. PhP200.00 per day.

SEN. AQUINO =

So if a TelCo is not following the service reliability aT most we can fine them PhP2,400.00 a year.

DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir. But ofcourse, we can cancel the authority or suspend. But suspending may also affect the consumers.SEN. AQUINO =

So is that PhP200.00 per consumer or per data set that you determine?

DIR. CABARIOS =

There is a question Sir whether it is per user basis because it is not yet clear as to whether the case is imposed per user or any violation in the terms and conditions of any rules of the Commission, they are subject to PhP200.00 maximum fine until they comply with the rules.SEN. AQUINO =

So that is clear. Maybe what I can suggest is that more than the penalty kasi at the end of the day, sabi nga ninyo baka PhP2,400.00 per year lang ang pwedeng ipenalize, even though I have to admit that because this is something that we have to look at at the legislation, how to update this. I think publishing which of the service providers are fulfilling the service reliability is probably more important. Because if published po yan, TelCo X, sumusunod sa service reliability, they are hitting 90% of the published speed and that all of their adverstisement pasok na pasok yung speed nila within reasonable means. In fact, we do not ask 100% Grace (cont.Sen.Aquino)was even mentioning 50% which I honestly I think is low but 80% pumapasok sya, that I think is the best thing that we can do. Because then, consumers will know kung sino talaga ang sumusunod sa kanilang advertisements. And then they will decide. And we will give the choice to the consumers to be able to go to the TelCos or Internet Service Providers who are really able to fulfill their advertisements. And I am sure TelCos also want to fulfill their advertise rates. So that publishing is very important Sir. Maybe on a daily basis pa nga ano yung result then its average per month, the average is the official. I think that is very important and if the Circular will at least have that mechanism I think it will really be important to our consumers because it gives them a sense of power. So that is my suggestion. Now with regard to the penalties, whether it is per user or not, I think that is something we can take up to into the future hearings. Can I get the opinion of the OFC here on the matter? Kasi you have also come up with the Memorandum Circular. MR. LOGOC =

What the Office of the Competition what we are protecting in the mandate within DOJ, we are the Office of the Competition so we are protecting the fair competition. So ang habol lang namin is meron na kasing Consumer Act and we as the OFC wants to make sure that whatever you advertise, yun yung maeenjoy ng consumers. That is the position of OFC. TelCos can write to us, we can talk, we are on the advisory.

SEN. AQUINO =

So far, looks like both DOJ and DTI are on the consumer protection angle. So I would even suggest to the Commissioner about the MC, even want to copy some of the parts of the Consumer Act for example handle consumer complaints, is that right Sir. Calderon?MR. CALDERON =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

You can even quote parts of the Consumer Act, you can even quote parts of the DOJ opinion in the MC para at least nagkakasundo yung mga agencies regarding what exactly we can do. And at a separate document, you can even suggest regarding your legislative amendments or changes in the law to support the memorandum circular even better. And that can go to us and we can be the one to tackle that in our hearing. Sorry for taking long on that matter. COMMISSIONER =

You mentioned a while ago about the publication of the results of the surveys and study. Actually Sir, aside from the penalty, what is more important would be the obligation because the TelCos are rated I think on the stock market here and on abroad. And some investors are not here so what they base their investements on (cont.Commissioner)will be the data that they publish. So actually, the share prices of the corporations are either enhanced or hurt by the issuance of studies or the service appraisal. So that is a bigger penalty than that penalty which they are imposed on a daily rate.SEN. AQUINO =

I agree. So I think in the last hearing NTC should have an equipment? But you have your own monitoring per area? Right? Would you be willing to publish yours so that it will be fair. You can publish side by side with the NTC on what your speed is. Your own internal monitoring that would also be fair to you also so that if you want to challenge them for information, maliwanag din kung ano yung published speed ninyo. ATTY. IBAY =Good morning. Mr. Chair, we actually appreciate all the questions raised by our Honorable good Senator. In fact, most of his questions referred to our position paper, the PLDT Groups position paper which has been submitted which actually outlined the methodology and parameters that the PLDT Group would like to supplement as regards the existing Memorandum 7-7-2011. So we support the questions and we feel that if only the Commission included in the working draft our recommendations, then probably the Senator would have appreciate the parameters and the methodology which the PLDT Group conduct the test as to the broadband speed. Our only reservation Mr. Chair is that the working draft is actually parang over-kill kasi hindi pa naman po nai-establish yung original memorandum order as kulang or (cont.Atty.Ibay)defective or inadequate in the sense na hindi pa nga po sya actually nate-test, hindi pa nai-implement fully because as admitted by this Honorable Commission, wala pa po naman syang equipment na napu-purchase. So we feel na i-test lang po muna natin yung existing memorandum order. And only after probable the NTC conducted the test to verify kung ano ang status ng broadband dito sa Pilipinas, then we can move forward in terms of probably thinking kung ano po yung dapat pong ma-improve or ma-enhance. And that is the reason why our objective when the NTC published the first notice of hearing when they asked what are the parameters to be measured, methods and period of measurement, who should conduct the measurement, in case of disputes mediation, process mediation and arbitration. We submitted concretely measures which are outlined by the good Senators questioning. Meaning fast tracks talaga paano ba natin ikko-conduct tong mga test na ito and measurement na ito. Because, if you will recall last time, na-trigger lang po lahat ng ito because of tests made by foreign service provider which is Acamai and Ookla. Which I do not know if the NTC will give judicial credence too yung ganung mga tests. Kasi we feel na on our side, as service providers, hindi naman yata parang tama yun. If ever we should be measured, we should be measured officially by the regulator. And only after concrete measurement and evidence and analysis kung ano po yung parameters na ilalabas ng NTC and after only the results have come up, then we should all sit down and talk about ano yung kailangang baguhin dito sa 7-7-2011. We submit that as it is, adequate na po sya e. Because if you recall again, our reservation from the very beginning from 7-7-2011 is being deliberated is that internet is not fast. But then we subscribed and we allow and we cooperated with the regulator to come up with 7-7-2011 and then furthermore, now, we are (cont.Atty.Ibay)talking about anong methodology kung paano iko-conduct yung measurement. When and if the equipment of the NTC will coming. And here comes a working draft na medyo over-kill. Kung baga Value-Added Service sya pero kung titingnan nyo yung proposed regulations doon sa working draft, mas malala pa sa kung paano nya iregulate yung basic service. So yun lang po. I mean, due process lang po sana before even move towards discussing other points, then we should first conduct the test para malaman natin kung ano po talagang state of broadband dito po sa ating bansa.SEN. AQUINO =

What part yung over-kill Attorney? Just to be clear lang, I mean what exactly is the over-kill part?

ATTY. IBAY =

Una po, yung standards po, the ITU actually prescribes only definition of a broadband as 256kbps sa definition po dito, nakikita naman po ninyo, 768kbps na po sya. And so on and so forth in line with the definition.SEN. AQUINO =

So what you are pointing out is the stated minimums already of the NTC that is what you are pointing out as over-kill?

ATTY. IBAY =

Opo. And yung sa rules and measurements and matrix. Pinadami pa po nila. Ok na po sana yung sa service reliability na nilagay po ng NTC sa 7-7-2011 nagkaroon pa po ng iba-iba pa pong measurement and matrix when in fact ang position po namin was that we discussed there the nature of the broadband ecosystem and we discussed in details the parameters to be tested. Largely, we feel that yung tests should be conducted upto the point where yun pong variables ay nako-control because outside certain variables, outside certain points where the internet is being distributed already is already beyond the scope of what the service provider can guarantee. For example, hindi po ako engineer, pero pag nagpasok ng DSL sa isang bahay, normally pag nagpagawa ka ng bahay, kayo na ang magwa-wiring sa loob ng bahay nyo, hindi naman po yung PLDT ang maglalagay ng mga wires. So from the outside plant, upto the point of entry nun, hanggang doon lang po yung kayang i-guarantee ng PLDT. So after that, yung point of view ng distribution, yung router, yun po yung minsan yung router po ninyo, sarili po ninyong provide, pero minsan provided din ng PLDT. Pero ang point po namin, we already outlined in detail kung ano po yung mga variables po na hindi na po hawak ng service providers. So these are things na medyo nanghihinayang kami na hindi po nasama sa working draft because, if these were included in the working draft, mas maaappreciate nyo at maiintindihan ninyo kung hanggang saan lang po kayang maguarantee ng service provider ang quality or ang minimum speed kung yun po ang pag-uusapan natin. Iba pa po yung sa wireless. Mas komplikado pa pong pag-usapan yun. In fact, if we look at the FCC Measurement of Standards, they released a report last year and they actually studied on a broad latitude fiber, dsl, cable, and satellite. And wireless, hindi pa po nila sinisimulan. Ibig ko pong sabihin, yun pong study po ng FCC, they (cont.Atty.Ibay)

follow in process by which before they even came up with the recommendations, which first came up with measurement. So let us not put the cart before the horse. Siguro pag-aralan muna natin, bumili po muna tayo ng equipment before even undertake massive overhaul of this NTC MC 7-7-2011. Yun lang po. DIR. CABARIOS =

Well, on the suggestion nga ng PLDT and Ms. Grace Santos here, section C, I guess rule there that would state that the unctrolable variable shall not be included in the test or shall be taken into consideration in conducting the test. As to the methodology, we are thinking that this will be discussed by the suppliers, once the suppliers is identified so that matatantsa po doon yung method by which this test will be transparent. All the stakeholders are invited to present their methodology. SEN. AQUINO =

Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask Attorney Ibay, kapag yung PLDT, mag-i-install sa bahay mo, kasi ito nangyari na sa akin ito before. Diba may technician na papasok sa bahay mo, and then he will test right there and then from the modem, ite-test nila yun after they activate iyon diba? Right there and then ba they can already make a test kung gaano kabilis yung internet na makukuha mo? They could diba? So again, we are not trying to ask all the parties here to do the impossible, we just want fairness lang in the market. It is possible that right there and then the technician can test and can say to the subscriber, Maam yung plan nyo po 5 Mbps but because of your house, dahil sa wiring ninyo (cont.Sen.Aquino)and etc., aabot lang po sa 3.5Mbps. that is possible diba? So that can be subject of the Memorandum Circular. Kasi ang nangyayari po is ite-test tapos aalis na. But then the subscriber in her mind or in his mind, kasi yung napirmahan nyang kontrata is 5mbps, iniisip nya palagi 5mbps. Hindi nya alam na ganun pala yun. Dahil sa bahay, dahil sa luma na yung wiring. In fact they can even say, Maam deretso nalang po natin. This happened to our house. Ideretso nalang po natin sa poste at hwag po tayong gumamit ng copper, gumamit po tayo ng whatever, yung mas high-tech na wire, para diretso na dito imbes na papasok pa sa landline ninyo na mas makakasama dun sa transmission ninyo. That is possible. So again, I am not discounting what you said. Iniisip ko lang, maybe in terms of working in the future, pwede yun diba? Na kapag nag-set-up sila, anyway, nakapasok naman na sila sa bahay, they can test right there and then. They can already say, dahil po sa bahay nyo, dahil po sa lugar nyo, you can actually only get 3.5 our of 5 and pwede kayong mag-pirmahan right there and then para alam ng consumer kung ano yung maibibigay sa kanya at makukuha nya. And I really think at this point, if there lots of hearing regarding infrastructure, creating easy ways for our private sector partners and even government that will at the end increase our internet speed. Pero ito this is really for the consumers own empowerment na hindi sila kept in the dark. So that is possible diba? And I would even suggest that for IPs who are here baka pwede pang Memorandum Circular yun Chairman, na once may kaalaman yung ating mga consumer dun sa kung ano yung nabibili nila. And I think, the DOJ, that is definitely the subject matter of DTI. Yun yung mga subject matter ng agencies right here that we allow people to have a more transparent process in terms of getting what they think they are paying for. That is one suggestion. Another one and I have to agree is yung reasonability because you know somebody might be (cont.Sen.Aquino)testing pero nagtatago sya sa ilalim ng pinaka-lowest part of the house talaga. Hindi naman fair yun. So I agree on the reasonability. We also have to take out all those variables but again, I will just reiterate na mahalaga na yung mga consumers natin may kakayahan to be able to test and to be able to say kung ano ba talaga ang nakukuha nila. And then, si Ms. Santos, in other country, are they test done in the home or done in parang at the point of yung wala pa yung as much as possible wala pa yung mga variable na yung mga extreme variabilities or the uncontrollable variables. Are the test done on the consumers part o dun sa mga areas na mas malakas yung daloy ng ating broadband?MS. SANTOS =

Thank you Mr. Senator, essentially, the PLDT mentioned the FCC, that is the very interesting type of broadband in America. In the U.S. the FCC actually has a program called Measure Broadband America where in there is a 3rd party, neutral party that provides modems and routers to consumers so that you consider the factors that you can control while you are measuring. So they were provider the router or hardware and then I think it is being done in a voluntary basis. So anyone who would want to install that equipment at their house, they can measure. And I would like to emphasize that what is imporatant here is the consumer experience. I mean, we can always look at the factor that can be controlled by the TelCo but at the end of the day, what does the consumer actually receive? So I think that is one good model, you can look at it up Measure Broadband America. So different points in the U.S. whoever wants to volunteer can have the equipment installed in your house by a 3rd neutral party. I think, if I am not mistaken it is Sam(cont.Ms.Santos)

knows. And this particular tool is also being used by Singapore, the IDIAS has also implemented a similar program or they asked consumers to participate in data collection. It is the same provider Sam Knows din I think. Wherein consumers can report to the regulator the data that they have collected. So again, the importance of having large data sets is neutral sya, and the consumers are able to monitor the actual service that they receive. In Japan, I think the regulator or the Ministry of Information and Communication also do the test but they inform the citizen and also publish the results online. And in Sri Lanka, which I mentioned in the earlier hearing, the regulator measures the quality of service but again the consumers are also given a software in the web based tool. And then data collection is being done essentially by the regulator. If you measure, taking into consideration the consumer experience, then the measurement will be done at the edge not at the, I do not know if the other can comment, not at the part where the network directly raised to consumers. SEN. AQUINO =

Well the other thing that we can do, currently we budgeted 1.4 Billion in Free WiFi for the rest of the Philippines. Of course that covers public schools, city halls, town plaza. That is not on a government that is on Smart and Globe. Although I do not know how they will divide the areas and how it will be brough-out. We could actually have the test there also. You can mandate the schools who are getting free WiFi to do the test daily or even the city halls do the test daily. As far as I know its coverage is nationwide. And that is 1.4 Billion pesos that we are providing business to private sectors? So we can test it from there. That will provide (cont.Sen.Aquino)

the nationwide picture regarding our internet infrastructure. MR. RAPADAS =If you may allow me, because I understand that this is a public consultation just with the service providers. And I come from the experience of the consumer. So first of all, listening to the PLDT representative, by the way I am Don Rapadas, have you determined in our definition of terms what is Value-Added Service? And do you ascribe that definition or that term to mobile broadband service? Because as we use it now, it as ease to become VAS, it is a main product or service offer. So kasi you see it as a VAS that is why you see the proposed provisions on the MC as over-killed. But I do not think it is no longer a VAS. Second point is, consumer knowledge. I will just disclaim here, I am not advertising Bayantel but I have been a subscriber of Bayantel for sixteen (16) years. And that experience has grown. As I have said, there were many frustrations about the service but as a consumer I have to learn my rights, I have to know what I am getting and I have to know what I should be getting based on my rights. Then so, now very recently, and Bayantel can attest to this, because of so many issues that have been filed through so many years, but recently have grated to there 3mbps DSL and the advertised information is upto 3mbps. Mind you, Bayantel will not put in their information advertisements the minimum. They always put up to. So when I called their hotline the demand in fulfillment group which specifically handles my account. So through the years, I filed so many complaints with them that they put my account under the Demand In Fulfillment Group. Even if I ask them, can you give me the CIR? they cannot readily (cont.Mr.Rapadas)

give it. That is a right of a consumer to know the CIR, but up-to now, they cannot give it. It takes them so long. Now I told them, ok, you will always refer me to that up-to 3mbps but I will tell them that verstible speed, that is not the reliable speed most of the time and not all the time. That is verstible speed and I would understand I can reach that verstible speed furing off peak hours. Am I right? They say yes. Now I ask again, when is you off-peak hours? They cannot give the information. Now I do not know if this is true about other internet providers but I am speaking about my service provider for 16 years. And that is really something that I think the consumers should know. And I think that NTC should help the consumers to be able to determine what are their rights, what they can demand from their service providers. So it is like an information material. I am a Department of Communication Scholar and so these are the things that we do. Provide information to the consumers on what they can demand as consumers from NTC from, the service provider. And this is related to refund and rebate, fortunately, I think because of my persistence, Bayantel would rebate me even an hour of interruption. Because the bottom-line there and this we know very well, consumers should not pay for service we did not get. Just like very recently, I think last month, Bayantel experienced a downtime in the Novaliches area, I called up Demand in Fulfullment I said kindly explain to me what is happening? and then after so many coordination and correspondence, the technical group went back to me and explain to me because ang sabi ko nga sa kanila, Do not worry, I can understand technical terms. I am from the Apple Users Group I am an Apple developer, I can understand technical terms. They told me there was a DTOS attack on the server that is why they have to shut it down. So ang sabi ko That is very purely a (cont.Atty.Rapadas)

problem on your part. It is not cause of extreme variables like brownout, or an earthquake or whatsoever acto of God. So it was very clear that it was on your part, maybe security problem on your system or network. So these things, automatically, you must consider rebate for all those affected on the area of Novaliches. Bayantel always consider that for me but if you are considering that for me, you should be considerate for all those affected area. I do not know if they are doing that. SEN. AQUINO =

Sir, before Atty. Ibay answers your questions, I have two questions. When you check your speed, where do you check it and what is your usual average speed that you get? And secondly, why did not you consider changings ISP?MR. RAPADAN =

Regarding your first question your Honor, there is a popular portal online where most users go to, that is SpeedTest.net. And that is what Bayantel also recommends to me. I do not know about other internet providers if they recommend SpeedTest.net. But I also asked them to do PING test so they dictate how to do it on the phone so PING test among those line. Right now I am subscribed to upto 3mbps I use SpeedTest.Net, I monitor many times throughout the day, the most that I get is 2.5mbps and the lowest I get is .9 mbps. That is it.

SEN. AQUINO =

Maybe a follow-up, is it included in your contarc that your minimum speed is .9 or .5, that would be the rough thing.MR. RAPADAN =

But I would still appreciate it if it is clearly stated or informed in their commercials, promotional items and advertisings. But they do not, in fact, if you pull up the website now of Bayantel, you would not see the minimum speed. SEN. AQUINO =

Why have you not changed your ISP if you have lots of complaints?MR. RAPADAN =Because they always attend to my concerns, that is the very important aspect of a client-service provider relation. They are open to feedback, they are open to suggestions. And whenever I request for refund or rebate, they always grant it. And whenever there is a technical problem that requires them to visit physically our place, our connection at home and even within the area they have this called UPAC, that is the brown cavinet where all the switches are located. In fact, they have even dedicated a line for me in that switch just to make sure that I enjoy the subscribed speed that I expect. That is something, that is love-hate (cont.Mr.Rapadas)relationship. But it takes to be informed by the consumer because nalalaman naman ng ISP na may alam yung kausap nila. So hindi po pwedeng, laging scripted lang yung mga sagot. Kasi ganun sila e, when you call on their hotline, scripted yung mga sagot nila e. Gusto ko pong malaman Senator about dun po s VAS, I think even many of us will agree na-overtake na nga ng internet yung lines . We do not usually use it now. SEN. AQUINO =

I will let Atty. Ibay answer but I would have a suggestion about VAS. MR. RAPADAN =

Thank you Sir.ATTY. IBAY =

Good morning. You asked a question regarding internet as a value-added service. It is actually the core of what is being confronted now and one of the things that we actually want to raise as duly and franchised company is that totoo po yan. In fact in many countries, I think that is the major issue that is being deliberated weather or ot internet should be considered as a basic service. But going back to the Philippines, when you say that an entity is a Value-Added Service provider: 1. Value-Added Service is an enhanced service. It is not part of the basic service of a provider; 2. Value-Added Service provider did not get (cont.Atty.Ibay)

a franchise from the congress to provide the sevice; and 3. A Value-Added provider does not have the authority to roll-out an infrastructure needed to render the service but only has to ride on the networks supposedly of a duly and franchised company. And that I think is the problem which I also would like to raise that there are a verified reports that there are Value-Added Service providers who enter internet but are actually already rolling-out their own infrastucture. And so we would like to probably ask the NTC to take a look into that. And then another thing, because of that, the internet is largely a Value-Added Service and I do not know how we register Value-Added Service providers as NTC already have since the time that it started rolling-out or certifying, giving out VAS Certificates and VAS registrations. There are also complaints from certain areas that they receive very poor quality internet because of course, they get their service only from Value-Added Service providers that have no authority to render infra but because they would like to sell internet, they actually either tap their own infra however, that the standards are not actually certified by the NTC. Or, they are actually rendering an internet service which does not actually even conform with the level of quality that the NTC would rate as acceptable. Those are things that we also would like to let the public know. But the only thing here that I think is scary is if the service become a basic need and we have descent franchise. A lot of these service provider should not have currently franchises to render that service right there and then. If it become a basic service, all these service providers who are supposedly null and franchised would be illegal, it would have to stop rendering that service right there and then. Thank you.SEN. AQUINO =

If I may add there, mabigat kung pag-uusapan yung basic service, there is a technicial definition to basic service and there is what we all understand. I think yung what we all understand, we accept that. Internet is very important in our daily lives now a day. Now when we put a basic service sa value-added service, that is an age old debate. On one hand, if we make it as a basic service, you allow government to step-in, put a paper structure, mandate the rates, give out franchises to those who feel like worthy or capable of rolling-out their infrastructure. Yung pro nun, they will get the government to really say this is something we need to invest in. And part of the yearly budget needs to go to improving our internet infrastructure just like in America, Japan even Australia. They do allocate or they have allocated in the past huge amount of budget just to finish the last mile kasi in those countries may concentration of services talaga yung sa main cities. But in the far-plug areas, or the farther out areas, government actually spent for that infrastructure. That is the pro of the basic service. The con of the basic service, as Attorney Ibay has said, is that you are actually closing the market. You are not opening up the market. Mas magiging specific kung sino yung mga pwedeng gumawa nito and as we all know there is already a call right now to open up the market further. If it is carried as a Basic Service, on one hand and right now it is a Value-Added Service, that is not a basic service, on one hand, they cannot mandate on how much should be the price per kilobyte. Government cannot mandate. If it is a contract between a consumer and a TelCo, the government cannot stand and say, Kailangan per 1mb ganito lang yung presyo because it is not a basic service. It is not a regulated service. On one hand, ok din yun because they will allow the market to actually determine the prices but it must also go hand (cont.Sen.Aquino)in hand wtih allowing the smaller ISPs, not just the two (2) giants, to also come in and distrupt the market because if they will distrupt the market, then you will have better competition and you will have, hopefully, better service on the ground. But yung con naman dyan is that you cannot just say, Kailangan ganito yung presyo. That is why if you notice, both the DOJ and the DTI are here because we are tackling this as a consumer issue. Because wether it is a basic service or a value-added service, there is still a consumer issue that is waiting on the authority of NTC to rule on. So they are not doing this because it is a basic service or even for that matter of value-added service. If you look at the MC, again, this is just one of the things,many things that we are trying to do. The summary of this circular and we are hoping to come up with circular that everyone agrees with and it is like everyone can get behind, is really empowering the consumers. Allowing people like you to really say that, Ito yung experience ko, ito yung sabi ng NTC na rate in Novaliches or in NCR for this month. Where was I compared to the average rate? Then after that let consumers also decide. Kung ito yung nakukuhang rate ng mga TelCos natin and hopefully, sumusunod sila sa mga inaadvertise nila na speeds. But people can decide again. Again, consumer issue, people can decide again na, In my area, si TelCo X is stronger because of their infrastructure, hindi si TelCo Y, so dito ako kay TelCo X. Of course that will cause the other TelCos to say, Kailangan because of my transparency, kailangan we should all work for having better infrastructure para our consumers have better options.So the question on value-added service vs. basic service is actually medyo mabigay sya for the TelCos, for government, for everyone. To be frank, it is still an on going discussion while I think one thing we can agree on is the consumer aspect. That this is really something that we (cont.Sen.Aquino)are doing that the consumers would not feel that you are out of the process. Because that is your money, how much does 3mbps costs? P1,499.00. That P1,499.00, that is important. That is a big money. So you should get what you paid for. And at the end of the day, we are just trying to get to that, what did I paid for? What did they say that I am paying for? And what am I actually paying for? Within reason. Again within reason, we are not saying 100% of the time kailangan ganito. The number right now is within 30% to 80%. Ther is a suggestion of 30% , and there are also suggestions of 80%. So at least if these rules are out there already, we have the monitoring mechanisms, our consumers will be protected and will be empowered.MR. RAPADAS =Again, referring to my recent upgrate on my DSL subscription up to 3mbps, I requested the provider to put it on two-week trial period so that I would know if I am able to reach that speed, and they allowed that. SEN. AQUINO =

And again, as what you have said, love and hate relationship. But I am still optimistic that our service provider also still, at the end of the day, want to have a better relationship with the consumers. And hopefully by pushing for transparency and putting this out there empowering the NTC to have the monitoring tools, aabot tayo doon. Rather than lagi nalang tayong nag-e-LQ, lagi nalang tayong may love and hate relationship, let us more towards one where we can be partners in developing our data infrastructure, giving the best to our Filipino people. MR. CONSULTA =

Sir, actually, Senator mentioned about the free WiFi. Actually, I am so lucky that I was able to attend in this public hearing because my concern was metioned also by the Senator about the last mile which is the TV White Space. Do we have the regulation about that? COMMISSIONER =

Thank you for that question, actually the last day for submission because we already had a hearing last December, but with all the stakeholders. And after that, I asked for time to submit their position papers. And then because of the several holidays, the Christmas break and the Papal Visit, they asked until today February 16 for the position papers. So we alrady received some of the position papers and we are waiting for the KBPs position paper which is today. After that, we can already issue the MC on the TV White Space. Sir, I will just add. Maybe just observation sa ating RB that yung difference between the testing on the wired and yung wireless is not so clear. So maybe we can make it clearer and we can put the methodology for wired and also for wireless. DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir, fixed and fixed wireless and then mobile. We separate the mobile from fixed and fixed wireless because we two have separate standards if we decide to impose minimum service circumstances to mobile. MR. CONSULTA=

Few comments lang based on what we have heard so far, on the service standard, most of people thinks that the company personally are before the service that I received was X and now all of the sudden, without doing anything, without doing any substantial change, it becomes Y% of X. It is never from the start they receive service, they receive this poor service when they got good service before. And when they expect this service because they receive this poor service before and it reiterate. Second, therefore you asked for the measuring standard seem that they note also that in the States, the FCC is made available as a tool for download measuring app. However the hardware measuring will still be more accurate. And then with regard to broadband, we would also like to share that this year, FCCs definition of broadband is now 25mbps. SEN. AQUINO =

So if you are below 25, what are you called? It is not dial-up because there is no dial-up up to this time right? You are not broadband. ATTY. LIM =Thank you Mr. Senator, I really think that asking the ISP companies to declare their average minimum speeds is a whole lot better than requiring them to follow a minimum or fixed minimum speed of internet service when it is not always practical given the various uncontrollable variables, factors existing from (cont.Atty.Lim)

place to place. So ISPs can do that by publishing their average internet speeds in their websites. And people can easily refer to see those minimum speeds when they do their browsing. I think it is better than setting a fixed minimum speed of broadband internet. SEN. AQUINO =

Attorney, my question there is in fact that is my first, when we had the first hearing last year,Do we have a year? Not yet? I am hoping that when we reach our 1 year, we will already have a good news. If you remember on our first hearing, OFC was there it was not Mon who was there but there was another representative there. Then after a few months, we found that the TelCos were putting 256kbps minimum speed, even if their up to mbps is 5 or 10. It is like let us just all put minimum 256kbps. So it is like whatever plan you have, as long as you are within the minimum of 256kbps. Parang yun yung fair sa mga tao kasi wala ka nang choice because everyone is within this 256kbps which I think will be GPRS level. Rather than a percentage of your up-to speed. So initially, I also called for that na ilagay nalang lahat ng mga minimum and then let the people decide. But then all of the stated minimum is all at the same level. So parang yun lang yung discomfort ko dun na we will just let all the ISPs to put their minimum speed so that everyone will agrees that, then let us just put 128kbps minimum over all. So people will really have no choice. Again, we are trying to work with the private sector here, but how can we come up with the rule that will also be helpful to the consumers rather thanbecause they might saySige 1kbps ang minimum and everyone will do that, so it will be just the same, we will not be of help to the people. You care comment on that. ATTY. LIM =

Thank you Sir. That is exactly the makeshift there because the ISPs will be required to set the minimum but either cannot be complied with or that is so unreasonably low it becomes absurd, that is why the better rule at the moment is the TelCo to follow is just to set the up-to speed. Now we realize the desire of the consumer to have a speed that they can more or less rely when they use their internet. And so I think the suggestion that you hear to state the average minimum speed will address that problem because it now gives the consumers a choice. It gives the consumers a choice of which TelCo to subscribe to.SEN. AQUINO =

So just to clarify, the TelCos will publish their average minimum speed for every advertisement or plan that they have. That is the suggestion?ATTY. LIM =For every locality in their websites, it is hard to publish the average minimum speed in their print advertisement for example because these are nationwide advertisements and people might interpret that this is the average minimum speed everywhere which cannot always be followed given the variables like in certain areas there are no cellsites because their local government does not allow it or because of the defect on the device that is used by the subscriber. That is the mischief of requiring the TelCos to state in their national print advertisements their average speed (cont.Atty.Lim)

because the average speed vary from place to place from locality to locality. SEN. AQUINO =

So you agree, if the MC is passed, you are saying that Globe will publish in their website the average minimum speed, kunyari all provinces or all cities. They are willing to do that?

ATTY.LIM =

I think that will be better Sir. Requiring them to follow the fixed minimum speed that is applicable everywhere which is not always possible to do.SEN. AQUINO =

So what do you put out on your national advertisements if you will take down that information on the average minimum speed? ATTY. LIM =

We can place there an asterisk at the bottom that the average speeds are variable from place to place that may be found in the websites. SEN. AQUINO =

Ok. So I suggest you make it more straight-forward to call your local service provider for the average speed on their locality. ATTY. LIM =

That is another suggestion. Thank you. And of course this average minimum speed can improve to time. MS. SANTOS =

Thank you Commissioner, I would like to reiterate one of the statements made by LIRNasia in its position paper. The question is can we come up with a common measurement tool for the operators? Because I understand that internally, the operators have their own tools. But if we are to use the results of their measurement, as an information tool for the consumers, they have to be using the same measurement tool. I do not know if that is possible, but we can look into it. LIRNasias position paper said while network operators usually have various diagnostics for internal quality monitoring purposes, they usually consider the segments of the network with the best connectivity that does not accurately emulate the access network as I mentioned earlier. As a result, the diagnostics will often differ from what the consumers actually experience. If we are to measure for the purpose of informing consumers, then that should be taken into consideration. SEN. AQUINO =

I think we are passed that because we are already purchasing the equipment.

MS. SANTOS =

Sir, actually, I want to clarify that too. Is the equipment that you will purchase, can you inform everyone, all the stakeholders wether it is a hardware that you will put in the base station or per network or something?

DIR. CABARIOS =It would be hardware and a software that will be purchased by the Commission. We will make known in the TOR that the application software will be made available to the consumers for them to measure. The hardware, we will have the hardware outside the network of the TelCos. We will have to discuss the methodology once we identify the suppliers so that all stakeholders comments and suggestions will be taken into consideration in the preparation of the methodology with the supplier. MS. SANTOS =

Sir, may I just raise a suggestion, when you conduct the hearing or consultation for the measurement tool, may I suggest to invite network operatorss engineers and engineering schools? I am sure that people would be happy to comment. Sort of a fair review. DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes, all interested parties. SEN. AQUINO =This is the usual government procurement process. So there will be a bidding?DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

I am not too familiar with the process but you will first release a TOR, is that right? And then publicly you will publish that?DIR. CABARIOS =

The TOR your Honor, if we purchase bids.

SEN. AQUINO =

Okay so that is to signify if they want to bid they purchase the TOR.DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir.

SEN. AQUINO =

Okay. And then the crafting of TOR will undergo some consultation.

DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes your Honor. Later on it will be prepared by the Commission. Of course there will be consultation in the preparation of TOR.

MR. ACERO =I think Ms. Santos point earlier was that if the TelCos were going to publish on their websites the average speeds, siguro because if there is any, to rebut any findings of the Commission, that is also the risk that might be there. That what we used to measure that would be the same tool that is used by the Commission if we can require that.DIR. CABARIOS =

Yes Sir because it will be make known to everybody that we are using this.

SEN. AQUINO =

My earlier suggestion was side by side. So you have NTC, which is the official, and you also have from Globe from PLDT, from Speedtest, from Ookla, because they varies right? And consumers should be able to, I am sure, groups like, Democracy.Net put these things side by side for people to decide but with the understanding that the NTC is the official one.

MR. ACERO =

Yes, the point is the tool that will be used internally by them, it has to be similar at least. MS. SANTOS =

If I may Sir, whenever LIRNasia does its research, it always emphasized that you cannot compare two results done by two different measurement tools. That is why it is important because it is like you can compare apples and oranges. So if it is possible to have, remember Senator, during our previous hearings, we agree that a common measurement tool will be used precisely because you cannot start to compare the results. Magiging confusing lang po yun Sir. Like PLDT and Globe have also mentioned this in the past, Yung Akamai hindi yan reliable. Yung Ookla hindi din reliable. Pero bakit? Then you start to look at the methodology being used.

SEN. AQUINO =

So with what you are saying, for everyone to agree what the official tool is. Anyway, I think yung position paper ni PLDT is that as long as it is in the NTC its observer you have the list of things, I am sure that the Globe requirements are. But I am sure you agree that is with the NTC is is a 3rd party. . SEN. AQUINO =And while we agree that consumers should also be empowered to do their own testing, ultimately, there is also a pure test which the speed will have validation by the regulator. Better yet nga is they are using the software of the regulator also and they add to the data. That is the sound na may aggregation tool ka if people want to volunteer and submit their informations like where you are. Because last year, I am sorry I am not an engineer, am I making sense? Is that correct? COMMISSIONER =

Sir, I will just add, actually there will be talking to the TelCos also on the tools that we are going to use so we can consult to them that we can compare apples to apples as what you have mentioned earlier. MR. ACERO =Maybe as what LIRNasia through Grace said, if we can include that on the next consultation the members of the Academe. MS. SANTOS =

Sorry, another addendum. Actually, the Ateneo is also conducting its own measurements. So perhaps, people from Academians and Engineering schools can be invited. Also, people from UP Engineering Schools, they are doing their own measurement although not on the regular basis. But if we can have this community of peope, different stakeholders, hopefully, using the same measurement tool testing their own experience. And also, maybe we can even expand and include universities and colleges because we also want to go outside of Metro Manila. SEN. AQUINO =

And then if it is possible ano? When you publish the results siguro, not just in a tabular format but the graphical format like a Hint Map or something. I am sure if this data is available in a raw format, we will have the other groups play with the data and not use it properly. And you can give it back to NTC if they cannot publish it. But then once a data is there, people will use it as usual. People will be able to use it to help people make their choices. So I think what is important is that we make the data available to the public. ATTY. LIM =Sir, I would just like to make a clarification, while compliance with the average data speed published by this TelCo is a whole lot easier when it comes to wired lines. It may not always be so with wireless or mobile. We should always submit subjet to that visibility standard and of course purchase can also contain a (cont.Atty.Lim)

qualification there that your average broadband speed may be affected by. But of course the TelCos will need to comply with their published average speed. SEN. AQUINO =

Definitely, and I think if the people are more knowledgable, it is helpful for everyone. Again, it would not just be the TelCos. Sometimes I feel that they are always providing money for the infrastructure, but then people are never satisfied. So people also need to do their share. And if you are knowledgable internet user, you will do things to really improve, meron namang pwedeng gawin to improve your experience. Everything from having the right wiring to facing the satellite if you have satellite dish, where to put the dish, that can be the counterpart on the consumers. Hindi lang yung lagi nalang nagko-complain. So they can do their part, government can do his part, then TelCos and ISPs can do their part and hopefully move to a better situation. The truth is, wiring is really a big thing. If you wired directly from the pole assuming that the modem is just nearby the pole. That will bump up your speed from 20% to 30% right there are then. And a lot of people nagugulat kasi kumukuha from the telephone line. That can go hand in hand with this. I have a question regarding the use of the word broadband, is there a definition of broadband? There is no legal definition of broadband. Are we just using the generally accepted terms?COMMISSIONER =

ITU.

SEN. AQUINO =

ITU. But in US, they just said that their broadband is now 25%. Lahat yun is the same or just in the US or people are free to define what is broadband is in the area? ATTY. IBAY =The ITU and the OECD, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, has define Broadband as 256kbps and faster.SEN. AQUINO =

So 256kbps. MR. YU =

In what year did they define that?

ATTY. IBAY =

Well, last year they released the 2014 State of the Broadband Report to Broadband Commission and it is still there.MR. YU =

Yes but when was it first defined?

ATTY. IBAY =

I really do not know but up to now, the question is ITU still stands on its own definition? So if we will have issues with ITU, then let us go to the ITU and tell them to revise their definition.

SEN. AQUINO =

So that generally accepted is the OECD and ITU definition which is 256kbps.MR. ACERO =

May I point out, that 256kbps, keeping the definition of broadband lower is more beneficial to a person who wants to impose regulations in broadband. Because if you are not broadband, you do not need that specified requirement, then you do not have to meet service standard. But if broadband has minimum service standard, then the lower, the better. SEN. AQUINO =

Well obviously, but we also have to subscribe to a definition. I am just wondering kasi if we define broadband, here is one and US they define it 25. So I am thinking now maybe yung publishing the average speed might also be better, but again, this is a public hearing so it is time for the suggestions. It is not yet final. Kasi one thing is, if you are below 256, you cannot advertise your self as a broadband. That is clear to everyone right?COMMISSIONER =Anymore questions or comments? Sir, siguro po just to give some timelines for our next steps. We will need time to put everything in to one MC, draft MC. Will publish it through our website and also distribute it to the parties, we have your e-mail addresses. We will send it by March 6. And then, we are giving you until March 13 to submit also your comment to that March 6 draft. And then we can issue the MC po within March. That is our timeline. And then Sir, just to let you know on another matter, on March 20, there would be meeting with the government agencies regarding the One-Stop Shop on access based on the proposed build-up. Thank you so much Senator Aquino for helping us on these items, and thank you also to our resource persons, to our guests and visitors who attended this hearing. Thank you so much. Prepared by:

Ms. Ailene G. Salilin

Stenongrapher I