Objection and deposition involving FLDS Hobby Lobby case

8/11/2019 Objection and deposition involving FLDS Hobby Lobby case

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Department is investigating the involvement of child labor in a pecan harvest at the Southern

Utah Pecan Ranch in Hurricane, Utah conducted by Paragon Contractors along with some

alleged degree of assistance from the Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 1 lines 9-18. Mr. Steed, while not

under investigation, has been served with an administrative subpoena ad testificandum to appear

in his personal capacity (not on behalf of the Church) to answer certain questions about his

knowledge concerning the alleged violations. Mr. Steed appeared to provide his testimony under

oath on January 6, 2014.

During the proceeding on January 6, Mr. Steed testified that he is not familiar with the

Southern Utah Pecan Ranch, See Exhibit 1, p. 19-20 line 1, that he was not familiar with Paragon

Contractor’ involvement in the Pecan Harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 20 lines 2-5, that neither he nor

his family participated in the harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 20 lines 9-23, and that he did not have any

knowledge concerning Church members participation in the harvest, See Exhibit 1, p. 21 lines 4-

24. Mr. Steed was also shown a series of pictures of individuals performing the nut harvest and

testified that while the people in the photos appeared to be from Hildale, Utah he did not

recognize any of them in particular See Exhibit 1, p. 24-26. An audio recording of a message

from the office of the Bishop of the Church was played which concerned the pecan harvest and

Mr. Steed also testified that it was not his voice on the message and that he didn’t know who the

voice was See Exhibit 1, p. 21-23.

In addition to inquiring about Mr. Steeds knowledge and involvement of the Pecan

Harvest, the Department sought to inquire concerning internal matters and organization of the

Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 41-54. Because Mr. Steed could not answer those questions without

violating his closely held religious beliefs he objected based on the rights secured to him under

the First Amendment.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT PRIVILEGE PROTECTS MR. STEED FROM THE

DEPARTMENT’S INTR USION UPON HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND PRACTICES

Case 2:13-cv-00281-DS Document 73 Filed 01/27/14 Page 2 of 7



Mr. Steed is a Member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

(the “Church”) and retains a closely held religious belief that requires him not to speak openly

about matters regarding the Church organization with anyone outside of his religious affiliation.

See Exhibit 2, Affidavit of Vergel Steed.

By seeking information from Mr. Steed concerning the internal affairs of the Church, the

Department seeks to compel disclosure of information in direct contradiction to the practice of

his sincerely held religious beliefs and in violation of the First Amendment protections of free

speech, free exercise of religion, and freedom of association.

Compelled disclosure of rights protected by the First Amendment has a “profound

chilling effect” upon the free exercise of those rights. Perry v Schwarzenegger, 591 F.3d 1147,

1156 (9th

Cir. 2009); Buckley v. Valeo 424 U.S. 1, 64 (1976) ([W]e have repeatedly found that

compelled disclosure, in itself, can seriously infringe on privacy of association and belief

guaranteed by the First Amendment”). Only those interests of the highest order and those not

otherwise served can overbalance legitimate claims to the free exercise of religion. Wisconsin v.

Yoder, 406 U.S.. 205, 215 (1972).

The Tenth Circuit (as well as a majority of federal circuits who have addressed this issue)

requires the party asserting a First Amendment Privilege to first make a prima facie showing that

the information sought by the government infringes on First Amendment rights. Then, upon a

prima facie showing the burden shifts to the Department who must pass a strict scrutiny test

which would require a showing of a compelling need for the information sought. In re First Nat.

Bank, Englewood, Colo., 701 F.2d 115, 118 (10th Cir. 1983). In re Motor Fuel Temperature

Sales Practices Litig., 641 F.3d 470, 488 (10th Cir. 2011).1

1 The Ninth Circuit has articulated the test as a two part test requiring the movant to make “a prima facie showing of an arguable First Amendment infringement” and for the government to

then show that the information sought is “highly relevant” to its claims and that the information

sought is not “otherwise available”. See Perry 591 F.3d at 1161.




MR. STEEDS PRIMA FACIE SHOWING: REQUIRING MR. STEED TO DISCLOSE

INFORMATION REGARDING THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS OF THE CHURCH

INFRINGES ON HIS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS

While there is no bright line rule outlining the requirements necessary to establish a

prima facie showing of an arguable First Amendment infringement, it is clear that in this matter

the questions the Department of Labor is asking Mr. Steed would require him to give information

in direct contradiction to his closely held belief not to discuss Church affairs with people who are

not of his faith. See Exhibit 2, Affidavit of Vergel Steed. If he were to do so, it would drastically

alter his relationship with his religious leaders and could lead to being shunned by other Church

members. Id.

Additionally, compelling Mr. Steed to answer questions regarding the inner workings of

his Church would also have a chilling effect on others to participate, to associate, or to continue

to associate, in Church matters for fear that they will be forced to violate the tenants of their faith

and comply with a court order to answer questions in direct contradiction to their beliefs. Id.

Because of the direct nature in which the questions of the Department would violate Mr.

Steed’s religious beliefs, and the chilling effect compelling disclosure would have on other

members association with the Church, Mr. Steed is clearly able to meet his prima facie burden of

showing an arguable First Amendment infringement.

THE DEPARTMENT CANNOT SHOW A COMPELLING NEED FOR THE

INFORMATION IT SEEKS

In order to meet its burden to compel the information for which it seeks, the Department

must show a compelling need. And “only those interests of the highest order and those not

otherwise served can overbalance legitimate claims to the free exercise of religion.” Wisconsin

v. Yoder, 406 U.S.. 205, 215 (1972).

Mr. Steed was subpoenaed in his individual capacity to provide testimony to the

Department. He has not appeared, and has not been asked to appear, on behalf of the Church to




provide testimony regarding the inner workings of the Church. The Department is investigating

potential violations of the child labor laws regarding a nut harvest conducted by Paragon

Contractors with some alleged type of involvement of the Church. Mr. Steed has testified to the

Department, under oath, that he had no individual or firsthand knowledge concerning the nut

harvest the Department is investigating or the involvement of the Church in the nut harvest. At

this point, the only information the Department is seeking which Mr. Steed may or may not have,

is information related to the internal affairs of the Church.

To be clear, the questions that Mr. Steed has objected to are nearly exclusively related to

the organization of the office of the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop or the Church. The

Department is seeking for Mr. Steed to provide information concerning whether or not certain

individuals still hold a title within the Church and what they do on behalf of the Church, whether

Mr. Steed holds a title in the Church or has volunteered for the Church, who keeps the records

for the Church, who the Church employs, who does the taxes for the Church, information

concerning the Church’s bank accounts, and questions regarding the internal communications of

the Church. See Exhibit 1, p. 41-54.

While it may be reasonably argued that the Department has some need for some of this

information to properly conduct their investigation, it cannot be argued that they have a

compelling need to obtain this information from Mr. Steed who would have to violate his

religious tenants in order to provide it to them. There is no reason why the Department could not

seek this information from the Church itself or from Paragon Contractors rather than to infringe

on the First Amendment rights of an individual.

Given that the Church itself and Paragon Contractors is the subject of the investigation

and is a more direct source for the information the Department is seeking, it cannot show that

they have a compelling interest in obtaining this information from Mr. Steed and no other

reasonable available way of finding what they seek. Therefore, it would be a clear violation of

Mr. Steed’s First Amendment rights to be forced to produce this information.




CONCLUSION

The rights secured by the First Amendment are highly guarded and should only be

infringed upon when there is compelling need to do so, and no other way to fill the need exists.

Mr. Steed, and other members of the Church, have a closely held religious belief that requires

them to keep matters related to the internal affairs of the Church confidential. The Department

seeks to compel Mr. Steed to violate the terms of his religious beliefs and practices in order to

obtain information that could easily be obtained from a more direct source – either the Church

itself or from Paragon Contractors – whom they are investigating. Forcing Mr. Steed to answer

these questions would be a direct violation of his First Amendment rights to the Free Exercise of

Religion, Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Association. It would also have a chilling effect

on the practice of religion by other Church members.

Because there is no real need (let alone a compelling need) for the Department to force

Mr. Steed to violate the tenants of his closely held religious beliefs, it is respectfully requested

that this court sustain Mr. Steeds Objections and order the Department to limit the information

sought from Mr. Steed to information regarding his personal knowledge of matters related to the

pecan harvest.

Dated this January 27, 2014

/s/ Jason D. Haymore

Jason D. HaymoreAttorney for Mr. Steed




CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

I hereby certify that on this March 13, 2013, a true and correct copyof the foregoing document was served by the method indicated below, to thefollowing:

Karen E Bobela

U.S. Department of Labor, Office of theSolicitor1244 Speer BLVD, Ste 515Denver, Colorado 80204-3516

(X) Court Electronic FilingSystem

( ) Hand Delivered( ) Overnight Mail( ) Facsimile

By __/s/ Jason D. Haymore




Page 1

Vergel Kay Steed 1/6/2014

801-983-218050 West Broadway, Suite 900, Salt Lake City, UT 84101

Page 1



IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF UTAH, CENTRAL DIVISION

THOMAS E. PEREZ, SECRETARY OFLABOR, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENTCase No. 2:13CV00281-RJS

OF LABOR, Magistrate Judge Evelyn J. Furse Petitioner,

vs.

PARAGON CONTRACTORSCORPORATION; BRIAN JESSOP; DALEBARLOW; KEITH DUTSON; VERGELSTEED; and CORPORATION OF THEPRESIDING BISHOP OF THEFUNDAMENTALIST CHURCH OF JESUS

CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS,

Respondents.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ADMINISTRATIVE SUBPOENA TESTIMONY PROCEEDING OF VERGEL KAY STEED~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TAKEN AT: U.S. FEDERAL COURT DISTRICT OF UTAH 350 South Main Street, Room 405 Salt Lake City, Utah 84101

DATE: Monday, January 6, 2014

TIME: 11:03 a.m.

REPORTER: Nancy A. Fullmer, RMR

Case 2:13-cv-00281-DS Document 73-1 Filed 01/27/14 Page 1 of 55



Page 2



Page 2



1 APPEARANCES

2 For the Petitioner:Karen E. Bobela

3 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR

OFFICE OF THE SOLICITOR4 1244 Speer Boulevard, Suite 515 Denver, Colorado 80204-3516

5

6 For the Respondent Vergel Steed:Jason D. Haymore

7 HAYMORE LAW 11564 Gold Dust Drive

8 South Jordan, Utah 84095

9 Also Present:

Joseph Doolin, Wage and Hour Division10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

2425




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1 VERGEL KAY STEED,

2 having been first duly sworn, was

3 examined and testified as follows:

4 BY MS. BOBELA:

5 Q. All right. Good morning, Mr. Steed.

6 A. Good morning.

7 (Discussion off the record.)

8 BY MS. BOBELA:

9 Q. My name is Karen Bobela. I'm an attorney

10 with the Office of the Solicitor, the Department

11 of Labor. I represent the Wage Hour Division of

12 the Department of Labor. And Wage Hour is in the

13 process of an investigation into child labor

14 allegations involving Paragon Contractors and the

15 FLDS Church. As part of that investigation, Wage

16 Hour subpoenaed your appearance here today to

17 answer questions and just gather basic

18 information.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. So it's my opportunity to ask questions.

21 This is not a formal deposition. It's simply an

22 administrative subpoena testimony proceeding. If

23 you don't understand any of my questions, I'm

24 happy to rephrase them. Just let me know. And we

25 need to speak one at a time so the court reporter




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1 can get a clear record.

2 Can you please state and spell your first

3 and last name.

4 A. My name is Vergel, V-E-R-G-E-L, Steed,

5 S-T-E-E-D.

6 Q. Do you have a middle name?

7 A. Kay, K-A-Y.

8 Q. What is your date of birth?

9 A. 8-22-69.

10 Q. What is your physical address?

11 A. 475 East Jessop Avenue, Hildale, Utah.

12 Q. And the zip code?

13 A. 84784.

14 Q. How long have you lived at that address?

15 A. Is that relevant to what we're

16 discussing?

17 Q. It is. And it's relevant because we have

18 attempted to serve multiple subpoenas at the

19 address we believe you've resided at and whether

20 or not--how long you've lived at this address or

21 the address we believe you've lived at is relevant

22 to these proceedings.

23 (Pause in proceedings.)

24 BY MS. BOBELA:

25 Q. And I don't mean--this isn't a




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Page 5



1 contentious proceeding. It really is just a basic

2 information gathering. Because we believe you

3 have knowledge relevant to the information, we

4 would like to be able to ask you questions and we

5 would like to be able to contact you at a later

6 date. There's no objections that can be made.

7 We're just getting started, so I would appreciate

8 your cooperation here.

9 A. I would love to cooperate. I'm kind of a

10 private kind of fellow. I don't really like

11 giving that information out. How about I give you

12 my phone number?

13 Q. That will be my next question. First, I

14 need to know how long you've lived at 475 East

15 Jessop Avenue.

16 A. Couple months.

17 Q. So it's January 6th today. Did you move

18 in to the 475 East Jessop Avenue in--before

19 Thanksgiving?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. What season was it when you moved to that

22 address? And you are under oath. I would

23 appreciate your cooperation. I'm just asking how

24 long you've lived at this address. And if I need

25 to solicit the judge's involvement this early on,




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1 I'm happy to do so and ask her to compel and

2 answer these questions.

3 THE WITNESS: Do I have any rights?

4 MR. HAYMORE: I have no objections to the

5 question she's asking.

6 THE WITNESS: I guess probably in

7 November.

8 BY MS. BOBELA:

9 Q. Where did you live before 475 East Jessop

10 Avenue?

11 A. I have lived at 550 North Oak, Colorado

12 City, Arizona.

13 Q. When did you last live at that address?

14 A. I don't keep real close track of these

15 things. I'm sorry.

16 Q. Did you live at that address before you

17 moved into the 475 East Jessop Avenue address?

18 A. Before that, yes.

19 Q. Did you live anywhere in between those

20 two addresses?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Where did you live between those

23 two addresses?

24 A. I don't know the address.

25 Q. Was it in Hildale or Colorado City?




Page 7



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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you live with friends or family?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which? Let me ask the question a

5 different way. When did you move out of the 550

6 North Oak address?


8 Q. Was it in the summer?


10 Q. Was it two years ago? Do you remember an

11 approximation?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Have you ever been convicted of a felony?

14 A. No, ma'am.

15 Q. Have you been convicted of a misdemeanor?

16 A. Speeding. I mean, no, other than maybe

17 traffic.

18 Q. Have you been a party to a civil lawsuit?

19 MR. HAYMORE: Do you understand the

20 question?

21 THE WITNESS: I do. I don't understand

22 how it pertains.

23 MR. HAYMORE: Can we take a brief recess?

24 MS. BOBELA: Yes.

25 MR. HAYMORE: I realize it's early, but




Page 8



Page 8



1 you just give us a moment.

2 Why don't you follow me and we'll chat

3 about this a second.

4 (Recess taken.)

5 BY MS. BOBELA:

6 Q. We are back on the record after counsel

7 and his client took a short break. I just want to

8 remind you we do have another witness coming at

9 1:00 p.m. and I hope to have your testimony done

10 before that time, but your cooperation will

11 facilitate us being able to do that. Otherwise,

12 I'm going to have to ask you to come back at

13 another date and time. So, of course, I want you

14 to take your time answering the questions, but

15 these are rudimentary questions about your address

16 so I would just ask you to help move this along so

17 we can get you out of here in a timely manner?

18 I think my last question was whether

19 you've ever been a party to a civil action or

20 civil lawsuit.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Before I forget, what is your current

23 phone number?

24 A. (435) 212-0441.

25 Q. Is that a cellphone?




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1 A. It is.

2 Q. How long have you had that number?

3 A. Years.

4 Q. Since taking a break, have you refreshed

5 your memory at all as to when you might have moved

6 out of the 550 North Oak address?

7 A. I would say between eight months and a

8 year ago. Somewhere around there.

9 Q. Where did you live prior to the 550 North

10 Oak address?

11 A. A lot of different places. Cedar City,

12 Utah.

13 Q. Okay. How long did you reside at the 550

14 North Oak address?

15 A. A couple of years.

16 Q. And when you moved out of the 550 North

17 Oak address eight months to a year ago, where did

18 you move to?

19 A. I don't know the address.

20 Q. Okay. How many--where was that location?

21 A. Colorado City.

22 Q. And were you at that--whatever address

23 that was, were you at that one address prior to

24 moving to the 475 East Jessop Avenue address?

25 A. Yes, I believe so.




Page 10



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1 MR. HAYMORE: Would you mind speaking

2 just a little louder? I'm having trouble hearing

3 some of your responses. I would assume others

4 might be, too. Thank you.

5 BY MS. BOBELA:

6 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

7 A. No, I have not.

8 Q. Have you ever testified in court?

9 A. No, I have not.

10 Q. What is your educational background?

11 A. I hold a master's--a bachelor's degree,

12 excuse me, in education.

13 Q. Where did you obtain that degree?

14 A. Southern Utah University.

15 Q. What year?

16 A. '92.

17 Q. Are you currently employed?

18 A. Self-employed.

19 Q. What do you do?

20 A. Handyman sort of things. Some

21 construction estimating, that sort of thing.

22 Q. Who do you do construction estimating

23 for?

24 A. Various. I've done some for Paragon.

25 Q. That's Paragon Contractors Corporation?




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1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. How long have you been self-employed as a

3 handyman, slash, construction estimator?

4 A. Five years or so, I guess.

5 Q. What did you do prior?

6 A. I've taught school.

7 Q. Where did you teach?

8 A. Colorado City Unified and some private.

9 Q. Have you ever taught at Foothill School?

10 A. I don't know what--there's a building

11 called Foothill School Building that I have taught

12 in, yes.

13 Q. Where is Foothill School Building?

14 A. Colorado City, Arizona.

15 Q. Do you know the address?

16 A. Not exactly, but it's Richards Street and

17 Arizona Avenue.

18 Q. Is Foothill School a private school?

19 A. It's just a school building. It has been

20 used by the public school. It has been used by

21 the private schools.

22 Q. When is the last time you taught at the

23 Foothill School Building?

24 A. I currently teach my children there.

25 Q. Is it a home school setting?




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1 A. Yes, ma'am.

2 Q. Are you employed by the Corporation of

3 the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the

4 Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints?

5 A. I feel that that's a religious question

6 and I should not answer.

7 Q. Whether or not you are employed by the

8 Corporation?

9 A. Yes, ma'am.

10 MS. BOBELA: Counsel?

11 MR. HAYMORE: I believe he--the question

12 infringes on his free exercise religion and he

13 doesn't want to answer that question.

14 MS. BOBELA: I'll just keep a list of

15 questions that we can get the judge's involvement

16 on down the road.

17 MR. HAYMORE: Okay.

18 BY MS. BOBELA:

19 Q. Have you ever been employed by Paragon

20 Contractors Corporation?

21 A. I've done some--not direct

22 employment--but some contract work for them.

23 Q. In other words, do you mean independent

24 contractor for them?

25 A. I've done some construction estimating




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1 for them.

2 Q. Do they pay you as an employee or do they

3 give you a 1099?

4 A. They gave me a 1099.

5 Q. In 2013, how many hours would you say you

6 worked for Paragon Contractors?

7 A. I'm not sure. It's not an hourly thing.

8 It's more of a per, you know, estimator's plan or

9 whatever so it's not based on hours.

10 Q. How many jobs do you think you estimated

11 for them in 2013?

12 A. Three or four, I guess.

13 Q. And how much time would each job take you

14 approximately?

15 A. It just varies by what it is.

16 Q. Do you know Brian Jessop?

17 A. I know of him, yes. I've met him.

18 Q. Have you worked with him in the context

19 of doing job estimates for Paragon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You are aware that the Department of

22 Labor, the Wage Hour Division, attempted to serve

23 a subpoena ad testificandum and subpoena duces

24 tecum to you?

25 A. I am aware of that, yes.




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1 Q. Did you ever receive those subpoenas?

2 A. No. I don't believe I did.

3 Q. How did you learn of them?

4 A. Someone at Paragon told me that there was

5 an arrest warrant for my--a warrant for my arrest.

6 Q. And that's the first time you learned of

7 the subpoenas?

8 A. I knew of some person coming to the home

9 where I lived and then leaving papers.

10 Q. And that would have been--there was a

11 Wage Hour investigator that attempted to serve you

12 at the 550 North Oak address. When did you learn

13 of that attempted service?

14 A. I learned that day that there had been

15 someone there.

16 Q. Did you contact someone at that house and

17 tell them to refuse service?

18 A. Am I under investigation?

19 Q. This is an investigation of Paragon

20 Contractors, as I said, for Wage Hour--for Wage

21 Hour Fair Labor Standards Act violations, that you

22 are a potential witness. You've been subpoenaed

23 for testimony and Wage Hour investigators have

24 attempted to serve papers to you. So the question

25 is relevant to this action.




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1 A. I don't feel to answer the question.

2 Q. On what basis? Is there a legal

3 objection?

4 MR. HAYMORE: I think the only legal

5 objection I would interject at this point is on

6 relevance. I realize that you served him a

7 subpoena. I realize he has not responded in the

8 way the Department of Labor would have like him

9 to. But he's here now trying to offer testimony,

10 trying to cooperate, so I would ask that we move

11 to the real reason you were looking for the

12 subpoena in the first place.

13 BY MS. BOBELA:

14 Q. Sure. There is a chance that Wage Hour

15 will need your testimony in the future down the

16 road. And if there is a similar refusal to

17 cooperate, I would like to document a prior

18 refusal to cooperate on the record. And I'm

19 working on the assumption that you refused to

20 cooperate and accept the first subpoena. So I'm

21 trying to flush that out to see whether you

22 received the subpoena, when you became aware of

23 the subpoena, and how you responded once you

24 became aware of the subpoena.

25 A. I'm here with a lawyer today. I think




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1 that's the answer to that.

2 Q. Okay. Is it safe to assume that you

3 avoided--you intentionally avoided the first

4 subpoena that Wage Hour served to you?

5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to that

6 question.

7 BY MS. BOBELA:

8 Q. You still have to answer the question.

9 A. I don't feel that I do.

10 Q. Did you avoid the first subpoena that was

11 served to you?

12 A. I don't feel to answer that question.

13 Q. Okay. I'll save that one for the judge,

14 as well.

15 Who at Paragon made you aware of the

16 bench warrant for your arrest?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Was it Brian Jessop?

19 A. I said I don't know.

20 Q. Who could it have been? Who do you

21 usually talk to at Paragon?

22 A. There's several office people there that

23 I see when I stop by from time to time.

24 Q. After the subpoenas were served at the

25 550 North Oak address, did you ever receive them?




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1 Did you look at them?

2 A. No, ma'am.

3 Q. Did anyone at that--at the residence tell

4 you about them?

5 A. That there had been some papers dropped

6 off, yes.

7 Q. But she never--he or she never gave those

8 papers to you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you never asked for them?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you live at 550 North Oak at the

13 time?

14 A. Yes, I believe so.

15 Q. Wage Hour also attempted to serve you at

16 the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop at the

17 1020 West Utah Avenue address. Are you familiar

18 with that location?

19 A. I can drive there.

20 Q. Have you been to the Corporation?

21 A. I suppose I've been to that address, yes.

22 Q. What is at that address?

23 A. I think you could find that out as easily

24 as I could. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Well, I know it as the address of the




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1 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop. Are there

2 any other--is there other businesses at that

3 address?

4 A. I know it as a business address. Yes,

5 there's a business there.

6 Q. And is that business the Corporation of

7 the Presiding Bishop?

8 A. I know it as a different business.

9 Q. What other business?

10 A. There's a print shop there I've gone for

11 copies and such.

12 Q. Is the Corporation of the Presiding

13 Bishop also located there?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Have you been to that address for any

16 other reason other than going to the print shop?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you ever made aware that subpoenas

19 were served to you at the 1020 West Utah Avenue

20 address as well?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you a member of the FLDS Church?

23 A. Is that relevant to Wage Hour?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I don't feel to answer that.




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1 Q. Are you going to refuse to answer that?

2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. Do you hold any titles in the FLDS

4 Church?

5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to that

6 question on the basis that it violates his free

7 exercise of religion.

8 BY MS. BOBELA:

9 Q. So is that also a refusal to answer?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 MR. HAYMORE: Sorry, could you repeat the

12 question so I can get it down? I'm trying to keep

13 my list of questions, too.

14 MS. BOBELA: Oh, sure. Whether he holds

15 any titles in the FLDS Church.

16 MR. HAYMORE: Okay. Just a minute.

17 Okay.

18 BY MS. BOBELA:

19 Q. And before I waste time here, are you

20 going to refuse to answer any questions about the

21 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the FLDS

22 Church?

23 A. Yes, ma'am.

24 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the Southern

25 Utah Pecan Ranch?




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1 A. No.

2 Q. Are you familiar with Paragon

3 Contractors' involvement with the pecan harvest in

4 Hildale, Utah?

5 A. I'm not.

6 Q. You have no knowledge of Paragon

7 Contractors engaging in a pecan harvest?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Have you ever participated in pecan

10 harvests in Hildale, Utah?

11 A. I have harvested pecans.

12 Q. Where?

13 A. From my very youth in Hurricane, Utah.

14 Q. What ranch was that at?

15 A. No ranches. Just residences.

16 Q. And I think I misspoke earlier when I

17 said that the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch was in

18 Hildale, Utah. I meant Hurricane, Utah. Does

19 that change any of the answers to your questions?

20 A. No. I'm not familiar with them.

21 Q. Okay. Have any of your children

22 participated in pecan harvests in Hurricane, Utah?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Have you ever received voice mails from

25 the bishop's office?




Page 21



Page 21



1 A. I'll stand on the First Amendment.

2 Q. Is that a refusal to answer the question?

3 A. Yes, ma'am.

4 Q. Do you have any knowledge about

5 church--the FLDS church members participating in

6 pecan harvests in Hurricane, Utah?

7 A. No. I know that some have. I mean, I

8 have harvested nuts in Hurricane, Utah. But I've

9 seen other people there.

10 Q. How recent?

11 A. How recently have I harvested?

12 Q. Uh-huh.

13 A. Oh, I guess 12, 15 years ago.

14 Q. 12 or 15 years ago?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.

16 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the FLDS

17 church members harvesting pecans in the last five

18 years in Hurricane, Utah?

19 A. I'm sure that some have, but I'm not

20 familiar with them.

21 Q. On what basis do you believe that some

22 have?

23 A. That's something that's been common from

24 our community over the years.

25 Q. I'm going to play a voice recording and




Page 22



Page 22



1 ask a few questions about that so give me one

2 minute to set that up.

3 (Audio recording is playing.)

4 BY MS. BOBELA:

5 Q. Have you ever heard this message before?

6 A. Yes, ma'am.

7 Q. When?

8 A. Jason played it to me a few weeks ago.

9 Q. Your attorney?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that the first time you had heard the

12 message?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. You're not sure if you ever heard this

15 message prior to your attorney playing it for you

16 a couple weeks ago?

17 A. I'm not.

18 Q. Do you receive messages like this?

19 A. I'm going to object on--I'm going to not

20 answer that question.

21 Q. Okay. Do you know whose voice that is on

22 the message?

23 A. I don't.

24 Q. Is it your voice?

25 A. No.




Page 23



Page 23



1 Q. Are you certain that you do not know

2 whose voice it is or are you refusing to answer

3 the question of whose voice it is? And you are

4 under oath.

5 A. I don't know whose voice it is.

6 Q. Did your children meet at the Foothill

7 School after this message was sent out to

8 participate in that harvest?

9 A. Reword the question.

10 Q. Did your children meet at the Foothill

11 School in accordance with that message to

12 participate in the nut harvest?

13 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object only on

14 the basis that that question's been asked and

15 answered already once, but you do need to answer

16 it again.

17 THE WITNESS: I did answer the question.

18 No.

19 BY MS. BOBELA:

20 Q. Do you know anything about the

21 15-passenger vans that are referred to in the

22 voice message?

23 A. I know what a 15-passenger van is.

24 Q. Do you know whether the bishop's office

25 owns any 15-passenger vans?




Page 24



Page 24



1 A. No.

2 Q. What is the Foothill School affiliation

3 with the FLDS Church?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Do you know what bishop's office this

6 message came from?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. I'm going to hand you a stack of

9 photographs and ask you to flip through and let me

10 know if you recognize any of the individuals in

11 these pictures.

12 MR. HAYMORE: Do you need them kept in a

13 certain order?

14 MS. BOBELA: No.


16 (Witness looking at photographs.)

17 THE WITNESS: I don't.

18 BY MS. BOBELA:

19 Q. Okay. There's a bunch of photos. I

20 would ask you to go through all of them.

21 A. I thought you were in a hurry. Sorry.

22 MR. HAYMORE: Take your time and make

23 sure you're sure.

24 THE WITNESS: Familiar. I don't know

25 that I could name anyone particularly.




Page 25



Page 25



1 BY MS. BOBELA:

2 Q. Why would you say familiar and not be

3 able to name any of them?

4 A. They're a peculiar people. These

5 unrecognizable as being from the City of Hildale.

6 Q. But you do not know any of the

7 individuals photographed in those pictures?

8 A. I don't recognize any of them, no.

9 Q. Here's another stack. Is that you

10 driving the vehicle in the first photograph shown

11 here?

12 A. No. I've never driven that kind of

13 vehicle.

14 Q. If you can flip through that stack, as

15 well, and let me know if you recognize anybody in

16 those photographs.

17 MR. HAYMORE: Are these photographs

18 marked as exhibits at all?

19 MS. BOBELA: No. They will be if he

20 recognizes anybody.

21 THE WITNESS: I couldn't name any of

22 those, no.

23 BY MS. BOBELA:

24 Q. I'm going to hand you another picture.

25 Have you ever seen this individual before in this




Page 26



Page 26



1 photograph in the blue shirt?

2 A. Ever is a long time. I don't recognize

3 him.

4 Q. I'm sorry, what was your answer?

5 A. Ever is a long time. I can't say that I

6 haven't seen him. I don't recognize him.

7 MR. HAYMORE: Again, I do have a slight

8 hearing loss so if you could just talk a little

9 bit louder. I'm not picking up all your responses

10 either.


12 MS. BOBELA: Okay. Well, we'll have

13 to--we'll just have to wait an hour. Maybe we

14 could take a break for an hour because I--in order

15 for me to ask the majority of my questions, they

16 relate to the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop,

17 whether or not Mr. Steed has been employed or

18 volunteered for the Corporation, are there members

19 of the Corporation, questions about the voice

20 mail. He's refused to answer all questions

21 related to the Corporation. And that's what I

22 would like to get the judge's ruling on whether or

23 not there's a--

24 MR. HAYMORE: Can we go off the record

25 for just a moment to discuss this a little bit?




Page 27



Page 27



1 MS. BOBELA: Okay.

2 MR. HAYMORE: Thank you.

3 (Recess taken.)

4 MS. BOBELA: Counsel has taken another

5 break with his client, Vergel Steed, and they have

6 come back and asserted the First Amendment

7 privilege to questions regarding Mr. Steed's

8 involvement or employment with the Corporation of

9 the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the

10 Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints.

11 He has refused to answer questions about

12 prior service of subpoenas from Wage Hour on him

13 at the 550 North Oak Street address in Colorado

14 City. He has refused to answer questions

15 regarding his affiliation with the FLDS Church and

16 whether or not he holds any titles in the church.


18 the functions and inner workings of the

19 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop, such as who

20 the records custodian is, how records are

21 maintained, actually, any and all questions

22 whatsoever about the workings of the church.

23 And he has refused to answer questions

24 about the church's involvement with the pecan

25 harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch. So




Page 28



Page 28



1 we--as well as any questions regarding voice mail

2 messages from the bishop's office that have been

3 distributed to FLDS members.

4 We are going to wait for the judge to

5 return from lunch and raise this issue with the

6 judge and I will move to compel answers to the

7 questions posed.

8 Do you want to add anything to the

9 record?

10 MR. HAYMORE: No.

11 (Recess taken.)

12 MS. BOBELA: This is Karen Bobela on

13 behalf of the Secretary. We have asked for

14 Magistrate Furse's involvement. The current

15 witness, Vergel Steed, has refused to answer

16 questions regarding his previous employment with

17 the FLDS Church, the Corporation of the Presiding

18 Bishop of the Church of the Fundamentalist

19 Latter-Day Saints, which is referred to as the

20 Corporation in these proceedings.

21 He's refused to answer questions

22 regarding Wage Hour's efforts to serve him

23 previously at an address in Colorado City,

24 Arizona. He has refused to answer questions based

25 on his membership and affiliation with the




Page 29



Page 29



1 Corporation, whether he holds any titles with the

2 Corporation or any titles in the FLDS Church.

3 He has refused to answer questions

4 regarding the functions and workings of the

5 Corporation, such as document retention,

6 administrative activities within the church, the

7 church's methods of communication.


9 the Corporation's relationship with the pecan

10 harvest, which is the basis of Wage Hour's

11 investigation. Any and all questions regarding

12 the church or his affiliation of the church has

13 been refused.

14 I think the next witness is here. Hang

15 tight real quick.

16 THE COURT: Sure.

17 MS. BOBELA: It is the Secretary's

18 position that the witness is in contempt of the

19 Court's order to appear today and answer questions

20 relevant to Wage Hour's investigation. We ask

21 that the Court hold the witness in civil contempt

22 and impose a penalty of a thousand dollars a day

23 until he agrees to comply and consider

24 incarceration until he agrees to answer the

25 questions as a civil penalty for civil contempt.




Page 30



Page 30



1 We would also ask that the Secretary's

2 travel costs be reimbursed for coming here today

3 and the witness's refusal to answer questions

4 equates to a waste of time and government expense.

5 And we would ask that he be compelled to answer

6 questions that are relevant to a legitimate

7 investigation.

8 As far as I understand it, the witness

9 has asserted his First Amendment right. The legal

10 argument or the basis of the First Amendment

11 right, his refusal to answer questions, has not

12 been flushed out. And the Secretary contends it

13 would not apply to the questions being asked. But

14 I'm happy to address that further on the Court's

15 inquiry.

16 THE COURT: Okay. And any response?

17 MR. HAYMORE: Yeah, a couple of things.

18 One, my client is here today. He's trying to walk

19 a very fine line. He has very closely held

20 religious beliefs that require him to hold some

21 things in very strict confidentiality.

22 Our objections to this point have been

23 based on First Amendment Free Exercise of

24 Religion. In particular, he has a closely held

25 religious belief that requires him not to speak




Page 31



Page 31



1 about the affairs of the church, about individuals

2 involved with the church, or his involvement to a

3 certain degree.

4 And the First Amendment objection that

5 we're raising requires the government to show that

6 they have more of an interest in obtaining this

7 information than my client has in his First

8 Amendment rights. And in this scenario, quite to

9 the point, he's here today faced with the decision

10 to adhere to his closely held religious beliefs or

11 to answer the questions of the Department of

12 Labor. He's chosen to raise the objection and to

13 hold to his First Amendment rights. And we would

14 ask that the Court would sustain those insofar as

15 his beliefs would require him to do so.

16 THE COURT: Okay.

17 MS. BOBELA: Yes, thank you. I think the

18 Court has been previously briefed as to the nature

19 of this investigation--

20 THE COURT: Yes.

21 MS. BOBELA: --that Wage Hour has brought

22 authority to investigate. This is an

23 investigation involving child labor activities in

24 violation of the FLSA. There is an enormous

25 interest in the government to protect the welfare




Page 32



Page 32



1 of children who have been pulled out of school to

2 work without pay in violation of the FLSA. I

3 think that that interest is far greater than this

4 individual's refusal to cooperate with the

5 investigation and answer questions.

6 Part of the investigation is whether the

7 Corporation is an employer. And to the extent the

8 Corporation is an employer, there are exceptions

9 to any First Amendment protections that would

10 apply to whether or not they fall under the

11 category of employer under the FLSA. And if they

12 do, we are absolutely entitled to inquire as to

13 their relationship as an employer to the employees

14 who are working at the pecan harvest and the

15 children who are working outside of school hours

16 in violation of the FLSA.

17 We have reason to believe that this

18 witness has information about the pecan harvest,

19 the church's relationship with the pecan harvest,

20 the church's affiliation with Paragon, the--all

21 the information that is absolutely relevant and

22 critical to this investigation.

23 Should every--every individual in the

24 church, and specifically who works for or is

25 related to the Corporation, refuse to answer




Page 33



Page 33



1 questions, that would exhaust the government's

2 ability to do its investigation and obtain the

3 information relevant to potential FLSA violations.

4 So I think the government's interest in protecting

5 welfare of these children investigating child

6 labor violations far outweighs this individual's

7 interest in refusing to answer questions that

8 would benefit the church and prejudice the

9 government in its legitimate investigation.

10 THE COURT: Now, could you just remind

11 me, is--has Mr. Steed--is he here in his

12 individual capacity or is he here as a

13 representative of the church?

14 MS. BOBELA: He is here in his individual

15 capacity. And for the purpose of inquiring what

16 his relationship with the church is, upon

17 information and belief Mr. Steed is a secretary of

18 sorts, holds some administrative office within the

19 church and would have information relevant to any

20 records and documents maintained by the church,

21 information relevant to a voice mail that we've

22 obtained that was distributed to all church

23 members that organized child labor to begin with,

24 that information is fundamental to Wage Hour's

25 investigation in establishing who the individuals




Page 34



Page 34



1 are that were working, what their ages were, who

2 their employer is, and so forth.

3 THE COURT: I--I am--I have had some

4 involvement with this case and to understanding

5 the scope of the investigation and the authority

6 that the government has in this situation, but I

7 haven't thought about it in the context of the

8 First Amendment position. And so I appreciate the

9 argument today, but I think it would help the

10 Court if I could have some briefing on that issue.

11 And just to--I think it would probably make sense

12 to actually have you folks do a first brief and

13 then have a reply from the government. What time

14 frame would you be able to respond--or to put it

15 together?

16 MR. HAYMORE: My work for the next week

17 is difficult, but this is a priority matter, so

18 14 days would be plenty. I think I could get to

19 it in that time frame.

20 THE COURT: All right. Does that present

21 any particular difficulty for the government?

22 MS. BOBELA: It does not, Your Honor.

23 The only issue I would raise is that we have

24 attempted to subpoena Mr. Steed since March. We

25 have served numerous subpoenas to his residence




Page 35



Page 35



1 that he testified today was his residence where

2 the subpoenas were served. He obtained the

3 subpoenas. He was aware of the subpoenas. He

4 avoided them intentionally.

5 MR. HAYMORE: I'm going to object to

6 that. There wasn't any testimony that he avoided

7 them intentionally.

8 MS. BOBELA: Okay. There was testimony

9 that the subpoenas were served to the address

10 where Mr. Steed resides. He actually refused to

11 answer a series of questions related to that

12 service, but it is the government's position that

13 he has avoided service at all cost. And it was

14 not until we obtained a bench warrant for his

15 arrest, that counsel was here and Mr. Steed agreed

16 to appear here to testify today.

17 So there's some concern from the

18 government about his willingness to cooperate or

19 appear at a later date and time. So I would ask

20 the Court to at least consider imposing sanctions

21 or penalties of sorts that would provide an

22 incentive for Mr. Steed to return and appear at a

23 later date.

24 THE COURT: Well, I'm certainly going to

25 consider that. That's part of what you asked for




Page 36



Page 36



1 already. And, obviously, at this point, if

2 Mr. Steed's lawyer were not to present an answer,

3 then the Court would have to rule on what isn't

4 part of it. So I think I'll hold off on granting

5 any sort of sanctions until I have a chance to

6 rule on the whole thing.

7 But I would impress upon you, and I'm

8 sure your counsel already has, the importance of

9 cooperating with the government's subpoena and any

10 court orders and not avoiding service, that that

11 is the basic requirements here and failure to do

12 so can result in an arrest and it can result in

13 jail time. And as requested by the government in

14 that, if you fail to answer questions that do not

15 have a basis not to answer, you can be put in jail

16 until you do answer those questions. So I just

17 want to make sure you understand that. I'm sure

18 your lawyer has already explained that to you and

19 will explain it to you again. But that is a

20 potential.

21 And so I don't anticipate that would be a

22 problem from counsel's perspective in making sure

23 his client is cooperative as far as participating

24 in this process going forward. Is that true?

25 MR. HAYMORE: That's absolutely true. As




Page 37



Page 37



1 soon as Mr. Steed learned what his obligations

2 were, he was quick to find representation and show

3 up here today voluntarily. So I realize that the

4 government may have that concern. I personally

5 don't have that concern with this witness and

6 would anticipate full cooperation as far as

7 appearing when required to appear.

8 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you

9 very much.

10 MS. BOBELA: Thank you, Your Honor.

11 THE COURT: And with--whenever it's

12 available, I would also like a full transcript of

13 today's deposition.

14 MS. BOBELA: Sure. And this is an

15 administrative subpoena testimony proceeding.

16 THE COURT: Right.

17 MS. BOBELA: Not a formal deposition. I

18 just want to make sure that's clear.

19 THE COURT: Yeah. From the testimony

20 today.

21 MS. BOBELA: And, Your Honor, if you

22 would permit, I am inclined to ask this witness a

23 series of questions down the road should this

24 witness be unavailable, the government would

25 ultimately ask the Court to make adverse




Page 38



Page 38



1 inferences against the Corporation based on this

2 witness's refusal to cooperate. And I think it

3 would be fruitful for our purposes to at least get

4 the questions and a refusal to answer each and

5 every question that he's refused to answer should

6 the request for adverse inference down the road be

7 necessary.

8 THE COURT: Yes. I would certainly like

9 you to have all the questions asked today that you

10 believe you need to ask and get whatever answer is

11 appropriate today and then we can move forward.

12 MS. BOBELA: Okay. So there is a need

13 for further testimony. Unfortunately, we have

14 another witness outside who is scheduled for 1:00

15 p.m. Because this witness refused to cooperate

16 early on and there was lots of breaks taken to

17 confirm with his attorney as to whether or not he

18 needs to answer certain questions, time ran over.

19 And I would like to give this witness attention

20 and then come back and question Mr. Steed this

21 afternoon. If you could order him to stay and

22 answer questions after this witness, we would

23 appreciate that.

24 THE COURT: Okay. Yeah, if you folks

25 can--




Page 39



Page 39



1 MR. HAYMORE: It will depend on how--I do

2 have obligations later on this afternoon. It

3 would be very problematic to stay a long period of

4 time, but if you're anticipating--if you can give

5 us any sort of time frame or anything, we would be

6 happy to come back today and do that on the

7 record. Or it seems to me that the series of

8 questions and responses will only take a few

9 minutes. I might ask that you just consider doing

10 it now while we're sitting here with everything

11 going on before you move to your next witness.

12 MS. BOBELA: Let me ask if this witness

13 is willing to wait.

14 MR. HAYMORE: Okay. Thank you.

15 THE COURT: Okay. So do you need me

16 further at this point?

17 MS. BOBELA: No. No. I do anticipate

18 meeting with you this afternoon.

19 THE COURT: I will be here.

20 MR. HAYMORE: One question I might want

21 to raise. When will the transcript be available

22 to us? We may want to use it in our briefing and

23 I'm wondering if we need to build in time frame in

24 order to obtain the transcript and submit it. I

25 just had a thought that this 14-day time frame




Page 40



Page 40



1 might be--


3 MR. HAYMORE: Would you be opposed to

4 21 days as opposed to 14 in light of waiting for

5 the transcript?

6 MS. BOBELA: No, that's fine.


8 MS. BOBELA: How soon would you like my

9 response, Your Honor?

10 THE COURT: And then would 14 days after

11 that be--

12 MS. BOBELA: Yes. That's more than

13 reasonable.

14 MR. HAYMORE: And for a surreply, I would

15 assume seven days or--

16 THE COURT: Yeah. Seven days is good.


18 THE COURT: Thank you very much.

19 MR. HAYMORE: Thank you very much.

20 MS. BOBELA: Thank you, Your Honor.


22 MS. BOBELA: We are back on the record

23 with Mr. Vergel Steed. The Court has asked the

24 parties to brief the applicability of the First

25 Amendment privilege to the questions posed to




Page 41



Page 41



1 Mr. Steed. And I want to make it perfectly clear

2 what questions are before him to determine whether

3 or not that First Amendment privilege would apply.

4 Earlier, Mr. Steed generally testified

5 that he would refuse to answer all questions

6 regarding the Corporation of the Presiding Bishop

7 and his involvement with the Corporation. But I

8 would like to flush out exactly which questions I

9 wanted to ask rather than just have a blanket

10 objection on the table. So I will just ask each

11 question and allow you to either assert a

12 privilege or answer if you changed your mind.

13 BY MS. BOBELA:

14 Q. Mr. Steed, are you or have you ever been

15 employed by the Corporation of the Presiding

16 Bishop of the FLDS Church?

17 A. I decline to answer.

18 Q. Have you ever volunteered for the

19 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the FLDS

20 Church?


22 Q. Are you a member of the FLDS Church?


24 Q. Do you hold any titles in the church,

25 such as special counselor, counselor in the




Page 42



Page 42



1 bishopric, or patriarch?


3 Q. Who is the records custodian for the

4 Corporation of the Presiding Bishop for the FLDS

5 Church?


7 Q. Who maintains the records for the

8 Corporation?

9 A. Will not answer.

10 Q. Who is in charge of the Corporation of

11 the Presiding Bishop?

12 A. I will not answer.

13 Q. Is Lyle S. Jeffs still a counselor to the

14 president of the Corporation?

15 A. I will not answer based on my First

16 Amendment rights.

17 Q. Is Lyle S. Jeffs still a bishop of the

18 FLDS Church?


20 Q. What are Mr. Lyle S. Jeffs' duties and

21 responsibilities as counselor and bishop of the

22 FLDS Church?


24 Q. Is Mr. Vaughn E. Taylor a patriarch of

25 the FLDS Church?




Page 43



Page 43




2 Q. What are Mr. Taylor's duties and

3 responsibilities in this role?


5 Q. Is John M. Barlow still a counselor in

6 the bishopric of the FLDS Church?


8 Q. What are Mr. Barlow's duties and


10 A. No answer.

11 Q. Is Ray M. Barlow still a counselor in the

12 bishopric of the FLDS Church?

13 A. No answer.

14 Q. What are Mr. Barlow's duties and


16 A. No answer.

17 Q. Does the Corporation have any employees?

18 A. No answer.

19 Q. And to clarify the record,

20 Corporation--I'm going to shorten it to

21 Corporation, but I'm referring to the Corporation

22 of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of the FLDS

23 Church.

24 A. All right.

25 Q. Does the Corporation rely on volunteers?




Page 44



Page 44




2 Q. Who does the Corporation's accounting and

3 taxes?


5 Q. Are you familiar with what is known as

6 the storehouse account?


8 Q. Is the storehouse account a bank account

9 used by the Corporation?

10 A. Will not answer.

11 Q. Does the Corporation maintain a master

12 list of members in the FLDS Church?


14 Q. Who maintains the list of members?


16 Q. What are the methods of communication

17 between the church and its members?


19 Q. Does the Corporation maintain an e-mail

20 list of all of its members?


22 Q. Does the Corporation maintain phone

23 numbers and addresses of its members?


25 Q. Does the Corporation distribute voice




Page 45



Page 45



1 messages to the members of its church?

2 A. No answer.

3 Q. Does the Corporation maintain--I'm sorry,

4 scratch that.

5 How does the Corporation maintain contact

6 information for its members?

7 A. No answer.

8 Q. Who authorizes communication from the

9 Corporation to its members?

10 A. No answer.

11 Q. Have you ever received voice messages

12 from the bishop's office?

13 A. No answer.

14 Q. The Corporation of the Presiding Bishop

15 is commonly referred to as the bishop's office?

16 A. No answer.

17 Q. In what context--

18 A. --that was a question.

19 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, what did

20 you say?

21 THE WITNESS: That was a statement. I'm

22 not sure if I was supposed to answer that, but--

23 BY MS. BOBELA:

24 Q. Is it true that the Corporation of the

25 Presiding Bishop is often referred to as the




Page 46



Page 46



1 bishop's office?

2 A. No answer.

3 Q. In what context have you received voice

4 messages from the bishop's office?

5 A. No answer.

6 Q. How often do you receive voice messages


8 A. No answer.

9 Q. Who sends out messages from the bishop's

10 office to the FLDS Church?

11 A. No answer.

12 Q. Does the Corporation maintain a voice

13 mail system that allows it to send out mass

14 distributions of voice messages to its members?

15 A. No answer.

16 Q. What is the Corporation's relationship

17 with Paragon Contractors?

18 A. No answer.

19 Q. What is Brian Jessop's affiliation with

20 the Corporation?

21 A. No answer.

22 Q. What is the Corporation's involvement

23 with the pecan harvest that took place at the

24 Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in 2012?

25 A. No answer.




Page 47



Page 47



1 Q. You are aware that members of the FLDS

2 Church went to the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in

3 2012 to collect nuts left over on the ground after

4 the tree harvest?

5 A. That was a statement. Should I answer?

6 Q. That was a question. You are aware

7 that--are you aware that members of the FLDS

8 Church went to the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch in

9 2012 to collect nuts left over on the ground after

10 the tree harvest?

11 A. No answer.

12 Q. How are the FLDS members notified of the

13 nut harvest each year?

14 A. No answer.

15 Q. How do the FLDS Church members know when

16 and where to report for the nut harvest each year?

17 A. No answer.

18 Q. Who provides access to the FLDS members

19 at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

20 A. No answer.

21 Q. Does the church provide transportation to

22 the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch for the nut harvest?

23 A. No answer.

24 Q. Does the church pay for the

25 transportation of its members to the Southern Utah




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Page 48



1 Pecan Ranch?

2 A. No answer.

3 Q. Does the Corporation supervise the FLDS

4 members' activities at the Southern Utah Pecan

5 Ranch?

6 A. No answer.

7 Q. Does the Corporation maintain the

8 day-to-day operations relevant to the pecan

9 harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

10 A. No answer.

11 Q. Did the Corporation provide instructions

12 of what its members are to do at the Southern Utah

13 Pecan Ranch for the nut harvest?

14 A. No answer.

15 Q. Are the FLDS members who participate in

16 the nut harvest compensated for their labor?

17 A. No answer.

18 Q. How does the Corporation benefit from the

19 pecan harvest activities that its members perform?

20 A. No answer.

21 Q. Does the Corporation provide security at

22 the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

23 A. No answer.

24 Q. Does the Corporation provide supplies,

25 such as buckets and bags and gloves, that the FLDS




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1 members use to collect the ground nuts?

2 A. No answer.

3 Q. How did the Corporation keep track of how

4 many nuts each family or each individual picks at


6 A. No answer.

7 Q. Does the church sell the pecans after

8 they are collected by the FLDS members at the

9 Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

10 A. No answer.

11 Q. How many years has the corporation

12 facilitated and organized the labor that takes

13 place at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

14 A. No answer.

15 Q. How many days do the families and

16 individuals work at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

17 A. No answer.

18 Q. How many hours have the FLDS members

19 worked at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

20 A. No answer.

21 Q. Are there any records related to the

22 hours these individuals worked at the Southern

23 Utah Pecan Ranch?

24 A. No answer.

25 Q. And by these individuals, I'm referring




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1 to any records relating to the hours the FLDS

2 members worked at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch.

3 A. I understand that.

4 Q. Did the Corporation provide any field

5 sanitation provided for its members at the


7 A. No answer.

8 Q. Did the Corporation pay for any of the

9 field sanitation equipment, such as Porta-Potties,

10 at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

11 A. No answer.

12 Q. What is Dale Barlow's relationship to the

13 Corporation?

14 A. No answer.

15 Q. Would you agree that up to 1400 FLDS

16 members participated in the nut harvest at the


18 A. No answer.

19 Q. You are aware that the labor provided by

20 the FLDS members took place during school hours?

21 A. False. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to

22 do when you make a statement. I'm sorry.

23 Q. Are you aware that the labor provided by

24 the FLDS members took place during school hours?

25 A. No answer.




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1 Q. How many FLDS children participated in

2 the nut harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?

3 A. No answer.

4 Q. How many adults?

5 A. No answer.

6 Q. Are you aware of a voice mail from the

7 bishop's office instructing all schools to take

8 the rest of the week off of school to help with

9 the harvest?

10 A. No answer.

11 Q. Where did this voice message come from?

12 A. No answer.

13 Q. Who recorded the voice message?

14 A. No answer.

15 Q. Did the Corporation--someone at the

16 Corporation record the voice message?

17 A. No answer.

18 Q. Do you know whose voice is on the message


20 A. No answer.

21 Q. To clarify the record, I did play this

22 message for you today; is that correct?

23 A. You did.

24 Q. And you have refused to answer questions

25 regarding where the message came from?




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1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And you refuse to answer questions

3 regarding who recorded the message?

4 A. Yes, ma'am.

5 Q. The Corporation distributed that voice

6 mail from the bishop's office to the FLDS members?

7 Did the Corporation distribute the voice message?

8 A. No answer.

9 Q. Did you receive the voice message that I

10 played for you today prior to the day your counsel

11 played it for you in his office?

12 A. No answer.

13 Q. Did your children or other family members

14 meet at the Foothill School after receiving that

15 message to participate in the nut harvest?

16 A. No answer.

17 Q. Why is the bishop's office involved in

18 directing children and families to perform work on

19 the Utah Pecan Ranch?

20 A. No answer.

21 Q. Is it common for the bishop's office to

22 be involved in directing labor of children in the

23 community?

24 A. No answer.

25 Q. The nut harvest referred to in the voice




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1 message is the pecan harvest at the Southern Utah

2 Pecan Ranch, correct?

3 A. No answer.

4 Q. The Corporation owns the 15-passenger

5 vans that are referred to in the voice message,

6 correct?

7 A. No answer.

8 Q. How many vans does the Corporation own?

9 A. No answer.

10 Q. What is the Foothill School's

11 relationship with the Corporation?

12 A. No answer.

13 Q. Would you agree that the Corporation

14 organized and facilitated the labor of the FLDS

15 members at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?


17 Q. Would you agree that the church acted as

18 the employer of the FLDS members who participated

19 in the harvest at the Southern Utah Pecan Ranch?


21 Q. Would you agree that the church employed

22 approximately 1400 individuals who participated at



25 Q. Did the Corporation receive the proceeds




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1 from the sale of the nuts harvested at the



4 Q. Did Paragon pay a portion of its proceeds

5 to the Corporation from its work at the Southern

6 Utah Pecan Ranch?

7 A. No answer.

8 MS. BOBELA: Okay. I think those are all

9 the questions that I had for you. Thank you very

10 much.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 (Proceeding concluded at 1:26 p.m.)

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25




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1 CERTIFICATE

2 This is to certify that the foregoing

3 proceeding was taken before me, NANCY A. FULLMER,

4 a Registered Merit Reporter and Notary Public in

5 and for the State of Utah;

6 That said witness was duly sworn to testify

7 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

8 truth;

9 That the deposition was reported by me in

10 stenotype and thereafter caused by me to be

11 transcribed into typewriting, and that a full,

12 true, and correct transcription of said testimony

13 so taken and transcribed is set forth in the

14 foregoing pages;

15 That no review of this proceeding was

16 requested by either party or the witness and,

17 therefore, pursuant to Rule 30(e) of the Utah

18 Rules of Civil Procedure the review was waived.

19 I certify that I am not of kin or otherwise

20 associated with any of the parties to said cause

21 and am not interested in the event thereof.

22 _____________________

23 Nancy A. Fullmer, RMR

24 My Commission Expires:

25 June 28, 2016








Documents

Objection and deposition involving FLDS Hobby Lobby case