NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 1 of 3 Fdr- 12-11-01 Jim Angle-Fox News Interview of Cheney 454

8/14/2019 NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 1 of 3 Fdr- 12-11-01 Jim Angle-Fox News Interview of Cheney 454

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THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

Internal Transcript December 11, 2001

INTERVIEW OF THE VICE PRESIDENTBY

JIM ANGLE OF FOX TV NEWS

Q Mr. Vice President, thanks for joining us.

TH E VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jim.

Q Let me ask you first, the President commemoratedthe three months since the terrorist attacks. And in theceremonies, the President said, we will never forget what wehave lost and what we have found. Aside from the loss of somany precious lives, what did we lose in this terribletragedy, and what did we find?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think in terms of loss,one of the things that comes to mind is the sense ofinvulnerability that we've enjoyed now for a couple ofcenturies as a country. We were behind two oceans, andtherefore, relatively immune to attack; concerned,obviously, during the Cold War about the possibility ofglobal war, but we managed all that. I think that's asignificant change.

I guess in terms of what we've sort of reaffirmed orfound, I think of it in-terms of our sense of nationalunity, our commitment to defeat terrorism on a global basis,the determination with which the countries responded to thetask at hand.

Q Do you think that that determination will hold?There is always a worry that as we make gains and perhaps aswe finish off what is happening in Afghanistan, that peoplewill lose interest.

TH E VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it will hold. I'vebeen pleasantly surprised, so far, at how well it has held.Of course, if there is another terrorist attack, that will,I think, without question, reaffirm some of the judgmentsthat were made in the immediate aftermath of September llth

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Q To your knowledge -- I'm sorry -- to yourknowledge, have we foiled any terrorist attack since

} September llth?

TH E VICE PRESIDENT: I believe we have. It would behard to put your finger on any one specific thing, but therehas been speculation, for example, that there was a fifthterrorist team, other kinds of activities planned variousplaces around the world, and that's been disrupted, or thoseactivities have been disrupted as a result of ourcooperation with other law enforcement agencies.

Our work with joint intelligence operations, I think,putting the heat on the al Qaeda and on bin Laden inAfghanistan as we have, has made it very difficult for themto be able to plan for their operations, because of theintense military pressure they're under.

That doesn't mean there won't be more, but I thinkwe've clearly disrupted their whole network.

Q In Afghanistan, are we now witnessing the laststand of Osama bin Laden?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I hope so. I think the results todate have been very, very good. And the Taliban clearly is

v finished as a military organization. A lot of the al Qaeda\s been hard-hit, especially in recent days with our

attacks up in the Tora Bora section. Whether or not heescapes and lives to fight another day I think is still anopen question. Hopefully, we'll get him wrapped up inAfghanistan. But wherever he goes, we'll get himeventually.

Q You've seen the videotape, the most recentvideotape of bin Laden. He not only displays what I'm toldis advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks, but alsoseems to be gloating over the number of deaths.

TH E VICE PRESIDENT: The — of course, I don't speakArabic, so I'm relying upon what someone told me he wassaying. I did see the tape. The impact of it is that the -- a certain amount of cynicism, as well, too. I mean, hetalks about young men who were part of the hijacking crewwho did not know they were going to die, that they may wellnot have all been as committed to suicide as were thepilots.

So there is a degree of, I guess, evil that comesthrough when you think about what he's saying and sort ofthe juxtaposition of that with his disappearance.

\ But he's clearly smiling, and --

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THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Smiling and very muchengaged with another individual talking about when theseevents occurred and how he was notified and how he wassurprised, for example, at the extent of destruction. Hedid not think the Trade Center would collapse.

Q How close are we to accomplishing what we've setout to do in Afghanistan?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We're close in the sense thatwe've clearly taken the Taliban out of power; they'rehistory. We've not yet wrapped up Mullah Omar, but I expectwe'll do that shortly. We've had a significant impact onthe al Qaeda network and disrupting that whole operation,and they had a base in Afghanistan that's now been pretty .well destroyed.

The one remaining major piece of business there, ofcourse, is to get Osama bin Laden as well, too. But I thinkthat will happen. But the ability of the al Qaeda to useAfghanistan as a base to launch attacks against ourembassies, against our naval vessels, against now the UnitedStates directly, has been pretty well destroyed.Afghanistan, I don't think, will again serve that purpose.That doesn't mean that they can't strike with other cellsthat are already out there in this worldwide network they'vecreated. It doesn't mean they can reestablish themselvessomeplace else.

But I think it would be very unlikely that any othergovernment or country would want to receive Osama bin Laden,given what happened to the Taliban.

Q Well, where does the war against terrorism goafter Afghanistan?" What's the next step?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: We've got the network, if youwill, al Qaeda network, that clearly exists around theworld. The estimates of how many people went through thetraining camps in Afghanistan runs as high as 70,000; that'sthe high side estimate.

There are cells in 50 or 60 countries around the world,many of them good friends of the United States. They'reclearly there oftentimes surreptitiously, but we'veuncovered al Qaeda operatives during the course of thisinvestigation; for example, in Germany, in Hamburg; Spain, alot of other places around the world, too.

We've got to go wrap all those up. We've got to denythem the ability to operate. We also need to drive theirfinancial resources, which we're doing. But also, we need

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to work on the nongovernmental organizations and thecharitable foundations that they've often used in the pastto provide cover, logistics support, financing for theiractivities.

Q Now, there is talk of going after al Qaeda cellsin the remote, more lawless areas of Somalia, thePhilippines, Indonesia. Do you envision U.S. troops workingaround the world to track down and bring to justice al Qaedaterrorists who have found their way to some other country?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's possible, Jim. But you'vegot to remember the President's decision, really -- it wasthe very first night of the crisis back on September l l th --was that this was going to be a mult i - faceted affair. Somemilitary, but it 's also law enforcement, it 's intelligence,i t 's financial and diplomatic, and I think in many caseswe'll find that those cells can be wrapped up with thecooperation of the government where they're located.

A lot of those are close friends of the United States,and they're eager to work with us in doing that.

There may be a few cases where military force is theonly option, or where military force is required for onereason or another to wrap up these cells. And when that'sthe case, the President, I'm sure, will do whatever isnecessary to achieve that objective.

Q There have been several reports that Somalia isone of those places; that it 's lawless, that there areplaces where al Qaeda can hide that are beyond anygovernment, and where it might be necessary for us to act.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: _There's speculation about a lot ofplaces. I don't want to be specific about any oneparticular one; that would be sort of forecasting, if youwill, operational details and I don't want to do that.

Somalia is clearly one of those places where there isno central government that controls all the real estate, andwhere the possibility exists that an organization couldoperate with impunity and not be subjected to local lawenforcement, and therefore represent a threat to itsneighbors, or the United States.

Q What have we learned about the so-called "Arab orMuslim street," from this encounter in Afghanistan? Therewas a lot of talk beforehand about what would happen if theU.S. went to war against Muslims, even though it had Muslimson its side? What have we learned about that factor in theMuslim world?

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What's new and different now after 9/11, in addition toour recognized vulnerability, but is the emerging link, ifyou will, between the terrorists on the one hand and weaponsof mass destruction on the other. A nuclear weapon in thehand of a terrorist is a very different proposition than anuclear weapon in the hand of a state. Now, you can't detera terrorist. What are you going to hold at risk? What doeshe care about defending? Arms control agreements?Meaningless to a terrorist. Summitry? Diplomacy? How doyou deal with a terrorist with a nuclear weapon, who isprepared to not only slaughter Americans, but to die himselfin the act?

That's new. And what that requires is for us toaddress the terrorism problem, but it means terrorism now,in a much broader sense than before, in the sense that we'.renot talking just about hijacking airliners or holdinghostages or conventional explosives, we're talking about thepossibility that at some point, one of these organizations,maybe al Qaeda or others, could be successful in their

efforts to acquire nuclear weapons or biological or chemicalweapons and use them against the United States.

Q Now, one of the fears for many years has been thatSaddam Hussein in Iraq, who is developing weapons of massdestruction, when the President answered a couple ofquestions recently about Iraq, his remarks were widelyinterpreted as a sign that the administration is looking atIraq as the next target in the war on terrorism.

Has that decision been made?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I would say that we're looking at

all areas of the world that could conceivably threaten theUnited States or our friends. And Iraq is of concern,because of Saddam Hussein's track record, because he hastried aggressively to develop weapons of mass destruction.He was well on his way to developing nuclear weapons in 1981when the Israelis destroyed the Osirik reactor. He was wellon his way again 10 years later in 1991, when we invaded andtook out much of his WMD capability; and he's trying againnow.

He's kicked the inspectors out three years ago, so he'shad plenty of time, using his oil revenues, the part of itthat comes around the Food for Peace program, or Oil forFood program, using that to acquire new capabilities, deadlycapabilities. So he is clearly a threat to his neighbors.He's used them. There is almost no one in the world who hasused these weapons in recent years except Saddam Hussein.He's used chemical agents against both the Iranians as wellas his own people, the Kurds in the north.

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Q So would you say it is -- if he doesn't change hisways, that it is inevitable that Iraq will become a targetin this war, if -- even if it's not imminent?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I never say anything isinevitable, Jim. But if I were Saddam Hussein, I would bethinking very carefully about the future, and I would belooking very closely to see what happened to the Taliban inAfghanistan.

Q Now, the Iraqi National Congress, the oppositionto Saddam, has been getting some money from the UnitedStates; that money runs out at the end of December. And inthe past, we have not allowed them to spend that money onmilitary training or for operations inside Iraq. Will theyget more money? Can — will those prohibitions be lifted?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The policy towards Iraq clearly isgoing to evolve over time. But they remain very much anarea of concern for us because of the threat that Saddam

Hussein has represented in the past and does in the future.In the course of addressing that threat, we'll want to

work with our friends and allies in the region. We' ll wantto work, I think, with the Iraqi opposition, with the IraqiNational Congress. I personally met with Mr. Chalabi myselfin years past, and I would expect that they will be a partof a continuing effort as we think about how best to dealwith that threat.

Q But a little premature to talk about militaryoperations inside Iran?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't like to predict what wewill or won't do. And my old friend, .Don RumsfLeld, would beall "over my case were I to forecast military operations.(Laughter.)

Q Now, the administration recently took action forthe first time against a terrorist group that was notassociated with the attacks on September llth -- Hamas --

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Right.

Q — in the West Bank. And you used the samedefinition about them: A terrorist group of global reach.Are we broadening the war on terrorism now beyond those whoare responsible for the attack on us in September?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: The President has talkedconsistently since 9/11, although the focal point,obviously, was al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, thoseresponsible for the 9/11 attack. This is a broad problem

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that affects a lot of nations around the globe, and it 's notlimited to just one organization.

The al Qaeda network now, of course, is heavily infusedwith Egyptians, Islamic Jihad; Egyptian Islamic Jihad hasmerged with his operation. The Uzbeks have been faced witha terrorist threat that again was part of the operation, theleader of the Uzbek, or one of the leaders of the Uzbekmovement may have been killed in Afghanistan.

Now, the situation with respect to Hamas, of course,and what we did there was to move against an organizationhere in the United States that we believe provides financialsupport to Hamas and to their terrorist operations, in thisparticular case in Palestine. And we've made it clear thatthis is a war against terror, and we've defined it as such.

Q One of the interesting things here is that Arafatseems to have painted himself into a corner. He's nowcaught between the Israelis, and many Palestinians, who see

anyone fighting against Israel as a champion of their cause.What do you see as the benefits for Arafat doing what wewould like him to do? Obviously, it 's going to be tough forhim. There are political risks, there are personal risks.

What are the incentives for him to really crack down onterrorists, once and for all?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think you've got to go back andlook at history, and remember how we got to the point wherewe had ongoing negotiations between Arafat and the Israelis.Arafat and the PLO were run out of Jordan, they were run outof Lebanon. They were living in Tunisia; Arafat was

himself. He returned to Israel after there had been anagreement that he would renounce violence, recognize theright of Israel to exist and enter into negotiations alongthe lines of the Resolutions 242 and 338, and trading landfor peace.

And that was what got us to the point we're in now.Now, as he tolerates terrorism as -- I don't want to say heencourages it, but he certainly has not controlled it fromPalestinian territory -- he's sort of destroyed, if youwill, the framework of the understanding under which thosenegotiations were going to move forward.

The thing that he puts at risk here, I think, is hisown continued operation with respect to the effort to try toestablish a Palestinian homeland. The people of Palestineare ultimately the ones who suffer most here. Because aslong as the violence continues in terms of not just militaryconflict, but aggressive suicide bomber attacks againstcivilians, against women and children, against discos and

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pizza parlors and shopping malls, there isn't any way, in myopinion, that we're going to see a resumption of trueprogress towards peace in the Middle East.

He has to control those attacks from Palestinianterritory, or I'm afraid we'll see the continued kind ofproblem that we've got at present.

Q If he takes that path, though, what is at the endof it for him? I mean, he obviously has to make a toughdecision.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, if he's successful — hedoes have to make a tough decision, but I think there's onlyone decision he can make. If he's not able to controlterrorist attacks coming from his territory against Israel,then he's not a reliable partner. He's not someone you canenter into an agreement with, with respect to a permanentarrangement for peace. No one is going to trust him withrespect to being the presiding authority, if you will, with

respect to a Palestinian homeland. We're not going to getany farther down the road.

And the unfortunate thing, of course, if that happensis that the losers will be especially the Palestinians. Ithink they've got more at stake here than anybody else.

Q One domestic question before I let you go. Thewar on terrorism is expensive. We're now talking aboutbeing in deficits for two, three, maybe more years. Do someof the domestic priorities of the administration, some ofthe domestic priorities of the country, now have to take aback seat for a while?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't think.so. We havecontinued to make progress on tax policy; of course, we gotthat done before the September attack. We're back nowtrying to get a stimulus package through to give the economya shot coming into next year. But we're very close tohaving the education bill wrapped up. That's been a veryimportant priority for us and we're making significantprogress there.

So I don't believe that there is any reason why we haveto suspend, if you will, activity on domestic issues. Iknow the President feels strongly about wanting to moveforward in that area. Part of the struggle againstterrorism, if you will, is not to let them throw us offstride, not to react in a way that allows them to destroyour way of life, or detract us from other importantresponsibilities as well, too.

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Q You know, there are a lot of professional second-guessers, people who said we couldn't possibly have a warduring Ramadan, that we couldn't possibly win before thewinter, that General Franks didn't know what he was doing.Are you occasionally tempted to say, I told you so?

THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have said that a few times. Ihave, indeed. (Laughter.)

Q One other point. One of the most interestingthings out of this is the sudden popularity of DonaldRumsfeld. And I understand that some members of theadministration have been teasing him a bit and suggestingthat he has become a "babe magnet" for the 70-year-old set.(Laughter.)

THE VICE PRESIDENT: There is a lot of good-naturedribbing that Don has to suffer these days, but he seems toenjoy it. He's thrived on it. The latest report I heardwas a rumor that his afternoon Pentagon briefing is taking

audience share away from the afternoon soap operas. SoI

don't know who is watching him out there, but it appears tobe a fairly significant group.

Q Mr. Vice President, thank you very much for yourtime, sir.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you.

Q Appreciate it.

THE VICE PRESIDENT: Good to see you.

END

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NY B9 Farmer Misc- WH 1 of 3 Fdr- 12-11-01 Jim Angle-Fox News Interview of Cheney 454