nids stuff (UNCLASSIFIED)

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE

eirikr: you found an interesting and amazing point!

so basically a destroyer weapon, fabius bile, malantrophe and the 5thedition forceweapon will deal 1 wound.only wraithcanons, swords of assur (can gargantuans fail lds tests?) andthe chaos deamon version of "gift of chaos" (which is shooting and notpsyker) and the snozzoga can cause d3 wounds.

I'm happy that little difference in wording is also repsent in theenglish originals so it isnt a translation error destroyer weapons are true instant death in US/GB apokalypse as well,right?

Not quite like that, but you're getting it yes.

Anything that in it's profile states it causes Instant Death, due to anyreason will only cause 1 Wound on a Gargantuan Creature. Howeveranything that removes the model outright would be counted as doing D3wounds instead.

So for example:

- Fabius Bile's rod of torment causes Instant Death. So it would deal 1wound.- A Blissgiver of Slaneesh Demon Weapon deals Instant Death. So it woulddeal 1 wound.- A wraithcannon deals Instant Death on the roll of a 6, so it woulddeal 1 wound instead.- The Diresword for Dire Avenger Exarchs says you must pass a Leadershiptest or be removed regardless of remaining wounds. This would deal D3wounds IF the Hierophant failed it's Leadership (yes they do takeLeadership tests)- Grotzooka's don't deal any form of Instant Death unless I missed a FAQsomewheres..- D Weapons deal Instant Death, so they would deal 1 wound instead.- Vortex Grenades deal D6 wounds as is normal for Gargantuan Creatures.- Force Weapons deal Instant Death, so would do 1 wound instead.

If there are any more specific questions, let me know.

I'm a massive fan of Apocalypse. Or, I should say, Tyranids inApocalypse.

Of my first year and a bit of playing Tyranids, I've organized andplayed more games of Apocalypse with my 'nids I've ever played

Apocalypse with my marines. It's not just that we were great with the4th edition codex, but also the feeling, the sensation of Apocalypsewith Tyranids-- knowing that your hordes of chitin are truly expendable,that your swarms of gaunts can and will out number the bullets of theenemy force. It's the feeling of a true Tyranid invasion.

I'd like to take some time and a few hundred words to explain my ownviews towards the datasheets available to us, and to invite discussionon them from Warpshadow in general; 5e has given us as many new treatsas it has shots in the toe. For now, I'll begin with the Formations inApocalypse, Apocalypse Reload, and touch upon those included in WhiteDwarf 362. Please note I've not just started this thread to expound myown views: I'm keen to hear everyone's opinions, and to start adiscussion on what is most effective and/or flavourful.

Feel free to only read the ones you care about. There won't be a test.

Apocalypse Subterranean Swarm- One of the formations that has benefitted the mostfrom the new codex is this, significantly reduced in terms financial andslightly reduced in terms point-related; it's now entirely feasible tofield this swarm for under 500 points, and at a low-end 540 points, itcan fire 24 strength 5 shots followed by 30 attacks (rerolling misses)-with even a chance of pinning all nearby. While still quite expensive now, this datasheet allows a late-stageobjective to become uncontested and practically owned in one turn; evena 540 point set-up will dislodge anything with a toughness lower than 8or an AV lower than 12- and anything with an AV won't be around for longwhen the Trygon's turn comes around. Unfortunately, this formation relies on being able to actually deepstrike at the enemy to be truly effective- and with Trygons, Mawlocs,Raveners, Harpies, Winged Tyrants, Lictors, Deathleaper, Ymargls,Genestealers, Gargoyles, The Parasite, Rippers, Shrikes, Sky-Slashers,and anything Hive Commander outflanking or in spores all punched in thecrotch by Disruptor Beacon, you're 80 to 90 percent likely to see theseconfounded things... I hate them so much.

Hive Mind Brood- Whether this still works is RAW debatable, as there'sno Shadow in the Warp psychic power anymore; on the other hand, everyTyrant also has this rule. Assuming you're playing with someonereasonable, this formation is as hideous as ever before, and then some.Pinning tests to anything in 48" to 72" connected to at least 16 wounds,many with 3+ saves, is one thing, but protecting your five Zoanthropeswith unlimited Tyrant Guards and a Hive Tyrant is another. Sadly, thisformation can't deep strike, but a frontline force of five templates andmany Brainworm shots each turn will make short work of a lot; it can,however, outflank with the Tyrant's Hive Commander, likely wiping out aunit a turn and surviving a lot of shooting. This is another expensive brood, though- at minimum costs, it's over 500points, and it's all one unit; it will, however, earn back its points.

Mycetic Assault Storm- Deepstriking my Barbed Heirodule is always a lotof fun, but being able to deep strike Carnifexes is... ...

Actually, I'd rather just take Mycetic Spores. A 5+ cover save is quitenice, but a Carnifex should even now be able to survive a turn of firebefore smashing buildings and Land Raiders. Mycetic Spores are anothermodel on the table to contest objectives per carnifex, don't have todeep strike together, correct like drop pods, can come with ClusterSpines for a small extra cost, and you need less carnifexes to buy theformation; the Mycetic Assault gives a 5+ Cover Save, costs roughly 50or more points less for 5 Carnifexes, and can drop a Heirodule. I like this formation, but the odds are I'll be passing on it from nowon. Doubly so due to Disruptor Beacon.

Endless Swarm- My favouite formation, like Hive Mind brood, has RAWdifficulties in the modern game; neither Apocalypse, the 5e core book,nor the Codex mention this "Without Number" rule. Assuming again you'replaying someone understanding- and, honestly, a rules lawyer is on evenfirmer ground with this formation than the Hive Mind- it's even betterthan ever. For the same price as a full, unmorphed Termagant brood,likely all Gaunts in your army are now here for the stay; especiallygood now that Hormagaunts are more playable than they've been since3rd-4th ed. Now that having both Biomorphs on Hormagaunts mathhammers into beautyagainst Marine equivalents and keeps them effective against anyone else,the possibility of introducing renewed broods through Trygon tunnels(after that Beacon is smashed) is fantastic; three broods ofnigh-unkillable Hormagaunts with 60 attacks each on the charge and athreat range of 12" will scare even Khornate and Dark Eldar armies, andthe glass cannon Devilgaunts find themselves looking forward totemplates and Heavy 12 weapons; additionally, this formation has droppeda lot in price, with a plausible minimum of six hundred and sixtypoints- and while that's a lot, you get 120 bodies moving around thetable. If only Tyranid Primes were also covered...

Apocalypse Reload Genestealer Infestation- at a minimum cost of 706 points, thisformation's cost has stayed similair, while the effectiveness is verydifferent. For the RAW crowd, Secret Deployment no longer exists;amajorstumbling block, as without it, the Formation isnt worth an extra 250points, but the replacement, Chameleonic Scales, is far more powerful.Indeed, while Genestealers entering through Chameleonic Scales have noweapons to shoot, the sheer presence of so many genestealers 1" away,blocking lines of sight, acting threatening, and acting as cover foranything else will tie up swathes of foes at a time... and woe betideanyone who doesn't kill off enough of the dozens of 5-man Genestealerunits this formation invites. One question is, due to 'stealers infiltrating as standard, is is thisworth the points? Does one really wish to pay 250 points to allow theirGenestealers to begin within Rapid Fire and assault distance and notbeing able to assault that turn, rather than them just needing a turn ofmovement to get into Rapid Fire and assault distance? Again, I feelpointing out the sheer psychological priority of thirty genestealersclose enough to kiss. It'll take a cool head to ignore them, and goodrolling to hit anything else. Every Man for Himself looks to be effective, especially in conjunction

with all the other in-game psychological warfare available; imagineMarneus' Calagar's Honour Guards avoiding the Deathleaper-stalkedChapter Master like a plague, not wanting his infectious 7 leadershiptouching their combat resolutions. All in all, this one's up in the air for me, though any excuse to bring90+ Genestealers to a table is a good excuse, though as always, I mustmention a Disruptor Beacon ruins the party.

Kraken Tendril Swarm- I can't claim ever using this datasheet, in partbecause I'd rather use 60 gaunts to form an Endless Swarm. Happily unaffected rules-wise, the ability to instantaneously repositionthe Datasheet's Warrior Broods is a great way to maintain synapticcohesion; the loss of being able to take winged warriors with thisdatasheet being a small price to pay. An excellent way to make sure thatwall of cover saves between you and the enemy stays up for a turn or twomore, this is still an expensive and prohibitive way to set up aninsta-tarpit. I'd rather just take 250 points less models than anopponent and take Strategic Redeployment as an extra asset.

Behemoth Crusher Brood- a datasheet that has suffered major changesbetween editions, the Behemoth Crusher Brood asks for biomorphs that nolonger exist and does something confusing with a biomorph that stilldoes; normally, Cushing Claws grant 1d3 extra attacks, but apparentlytwo sets changes it to a straight roll of 2d6, supplanting base attacks.Weird and awesome. Assuming that each Crusherfex takes two sets of claws and astripped-down Mycetic Spore, this formation costs a whopping 800points-- for 3 fleet monstrous creatures with an average of 24 strength9 attacks on the charge and rolling 2d6 on penetration and ignoringnormal saves. It's quite scary. It's also going to be surprisingly fragile; now Carnifexes can't becomeimmune to bolters or save against missile launchers, each of thoserampaging behemoths is likely going to die before reaching CC at all.Perhaps in combination with a Genestealer screen granting them all 4+saves or outflanking through someone's instinctive tactical genius,they'll be effective, but this is one of the biggest gambles, both inlegality and effectiveness. It also strikes me, personally, as weirdthat these Fleet, Living Battering Rams always strike at initiative 1. If I ever use this again, it will be joined by two full pods ofVenomthropes, granting a 5+ cover save to the Crushers and an equalinitiative of 1 to everything they're about to pulp.

Eye of the Hive- for 300 points at a minimum cost, this formation is oneof the cheapest available, and (in my opinion) now one of the mosteffective. Every Warrior Brood in the formation having "Conduit: Allunits within Synapse range gain Feel No Pain and Preferred Enemy" ishorrifying- running up behind a group of hormagants, taking more damagethan a Tervigon could by far, able to take the Bonesword choices to helpin the CC or Deathspitters to give supporting fire, and able to takePrimes to further spread massive love and affection makes thisincredibly deadly for a small points cost. Yes, Warriors will stillsweat in terror at Krak missiles, but paying 150 points plus 165 pointsper brood to give supporting fire, feel no pain and preferred enemy to

groups of Hormagaunts is something I personally cannot wait to try out;the only disadvantage is the Strike Force rule, limiting deploymentoptions- this is likely much more significant than I'm making out,because I still feel the sheer power involved makes this datasheetabusable Five 165 point broods and this sheet is only around a thousandpoints, after all... As an aside, I've not mentioned Alien Evolution in this, as I've neveronce used it. Now that warriors are in some ways more survivable, I'mstill unlikely to use it; there's something metagamey and slightlyupsetting about being able to take an advantage in one, non-campaigngame simply due to having done well in another.

Living Fortress- At a massive cost for a few models, the Living Fortressis perhaps the most intriguing floating synapse base available. Able totake unlimited Tyrant Guard extra wounds, take a 2+ save or 3+ coversave most of the time when going to ground, and with Feel No Pain asstandard, the Living Fortress isn't going anywhere. Literally, not aninch. It's there to take a centre-table objective and fall asleep,occasionally removing a Tyrant Guard to the sixth Lascannon shot thisturn, sniggering under their collective breaths at massed bolter andlasgun fire, and just generally being as unkillable as 600 points shoulddamn well be. 5th Edition has crept theprice up and made this RAW questionable again,due to mentioning absent biomorphs, but also made this better than ever:two Indescribably Horrific, acidic blooded regenerating Tyrants with aten-man entourage of Guards- some with whips- is not something that willever be assaulted and is going to resist a lot of shooting; even aminimal brood will take 108 bolter shots to hurt a guard... 540 shots tokill all 5. Assuming the secondary tyrant doesn't take a few wounds forthe team. That he will then regenerate. Watch out, though- Vindicators look upon this beautiful scene like aneight-year-old boy looks upon a snowy field. They've just got to leavesome big, muddy footprints on it, a few big holes, and a lot of bloodybug remains, before flipping off a granny on the way home, ringingdoorbells all the way. And probably getting eaten by a carnifex, ifthere's any justice. Any excuse to take two sets of [s]Tactical Ge[/s]Hive Commander is alsovery welcome, though at the price you pay, it's almost like paying for astratagem in itself.

White Dwarf 362 Tyranid Tunnel Swarm- I get to deep strike what? Where? And they can dowhat? One of the most incredibly deadly-looking formations we have, the TunnelSwarm is another reason that damn beacon should be erretad to 12 inchesor something. I mean, seriously. Not only does it allow a turn 1 assaultwith a Trygon and 20-30 souped-up Hormagants and keeps your Lictorssafely in CC for your Mawloc/Trygon Prime/Mycetic Spored Doom ofMalantai to home in on in turn 2, it also acts as a "Horvigon"- aTervigon for Hormagaunts. Who cares if there's no synapse within twelvefeet? Hormagaunts don't need it! And, hell, if you want, you can justpay 40 points to add another six shots to thet Trygon and make sure yourHormagaunts behave. Starting with a couple of this datasheet in an opponent's back line

looks to be amazing.

Trygon Bioshock Brood- What most our "swarm of heavies" should be like.One to three Trygon Primes in this formation gives you, for around 800points, a massive amount of firepower: 24 to 36 strength 5 shots,rerolling to hit and to wound if they're all fired at one target,automatically causing an additonal glancing on a to-hit roll of 6... More survivable than carnifices, this Trygon Brood will still want tothink twice about the tempting business of hunting super heavies. Whileit can autoglance-immobilize a Shadowsword in shooting and then fleetinto it, it's also asking to get ripped apart by a few strength D shotsor one destroyer template. Eternal Warrior, where art thou now? ...At least the presence of an invulnerable save keeps them fighting!The Electrostatic Force Field grants them a 4+ save, as good or betterthan Feel No Pain in the face of destroyer hits. Additionally, againstother swarm armies like Guard and Orks or against vehicle units, thesheer number of shots that can be directed against them all but ensuresa very, very bad day. Nonetheless, the need to strike one target for maximal shootingeffectiveness and the possibility of losing the 4++ save forever to abad turn makes this, in my opinion, more fairly priced; the Bio-electricTempest is unlikely to come up in many games, thus limiting theeffectiveness of the datasheet to doubling the number of Lascannon hitsto take a Trygon down.

Anyway, that's all for now. Comments are welcome, critiques moreso, andopinions and observations most of all. Have I missed something? Have youspotted something? Experience told you otherwise? Please say!

(Oh, and yes, I will do the Imperial Armour and GW website datasheetssometime in the future. But... not this week!)

Imperial Armour Apocalyspe - volume 1:

Winged Swarm- As viable as it ever was, and with the new plasticGargoyles, much easier to field financially.

Spore Chimney Infestation - No rule changes for this formation, exceptthe Spore Mine Cluster rules.

GW Website:

Screamer Killer Brood: As excellent as always, but without the plethoraof defensive options that were available to Carnifex, a tad morefragile. Still and all, a nice formation... with a Hellstorm template...

What removes Tyranids from being viable in Apocalypse, is D weapons.Your typical Reaver has a 7" D template, and the Warlord has a 10". Themost interesting formations, have either Carnifex or Hive Tyrants inthem, neither of which stand up to these weapons at all. Sure,Zoanthropes, and now Hierophants, are very tough to take out with their3++ save. But nothing else is. *sigh*

(And as a aside, Marneus allows the marine player to choose to pass orfail any Morale check they are called upon to make. Not the best choiceto use Deathleaper against.)

New Datasheet on GW website! http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m870011a_NEW_Tyranid_Datasheet_-_Leviathan_Gargoyle_Swarm.pdf

GW Website Leviathan Gargoyle Swarm- A few score of Gargoyles with a 125 pointsurcharge is, like most of our formations, around 600 points (beforebiomorphs); and, like many of our formations, this one seems asinteresting as it does effective.

First off, eighty Gargoyles is a lot of fast movement; being able toStrategically Redeploy is another boost to their speed, even on asmaller board; 24" or more movement will easily allow the broods toconglomerate on objectives or reinforce soon-to-be-seiged lines, and andthe usual ability to turn the entire swarm of models into a flappingcover save, LOS blocker, and charge shield makes them even better... andthe reliable ability to do this from outside Rapid Fire or Fleet rangewhile still being to launch a fleshborer-led shoot-then-assault nextturn makes this ability all the more powerful.

Secondly, the Night Fighting Naughtiness: Placing the entire brood in anenemy's front line or around any naughty artilliary will have atremendous effect, saving your bigger monsters from suffering heavy firefor a turn, instead letting it fall upon the more expendable Gargoyles-who, indeed, might also be too far away to hit. Note this is a radialeffect, so it is simple enough to put all these Gargoyles in the enemyback lines (for maximum effect) one turn and redeploy them into a coversave for the next!

The other real gem of this formation is if you can somehow scrape up 900points and a Harridan to spend them on; nearly invulnerable with 6wounds, enough toughness to ignore a Heavy Bolter, a 3+ save and flightpower, this creature- which, sadly, loses any real use as a Gargoylecarrier- is covered in the free Strategic Redeloyment for the swarm.Being able to move this thing even further than normal (sadly, at theloss of a turn of biocannon fire) allows it to strike anywhere on themost massive of boards, and like the Strategic Redeplyment asset ingeneral, improves only with board size.

Comments? Suggestions? Praise or criticism? I'd love to know what youthink of this and/or other formations in Apoc, so please, don't hesitateto speak your mind.

Hail fellow Hive Mind commanders

Whilst I am not a regular poster here, I have been playing with theTyranids since spring 2007. I have witnessed the transgression from 4thed. Codex, to 5th ed. and now to our 5th ed. Codex. It has, at times,been trying. It has been frustrating, but above all, it has been fun.

The Tyranids, as intended, bring much needed horror to the table top,and the image of a world-devouring species "come for you" isoutstandingly cool. As a fan of the Apocalypse expansion, I find thatfew armies really lend themselves to being "Apocalyps-ised". Sure, theImperial Guard do it, with their million strong armies, and the Orks doit too. But, the one 40K which does it superbly, above all others, isthe Tyranids. It is the very essence of what they are. They are notsmall scale incursions, fielding their alien version of platoons orcompanies. No. The Tyranids field armies which crush worlds.

And that is solely possible in Apocalypse.

With the birth of the 5th ed. Codex we lost our much appreciated,de-facto, "Eternal Warrior" on all our Synapse creatures. Consideringthe amount of strength D weapons floating around out there in themultiverse, and the price hike our monsterous creatures experienced,taking down the opposing super-heavy armour, has never been harder.

This topic is meant as a discussion concerning the tactics, the do's anddon't's of the Tyranids in 5th ed Apocalypse.

Before going further into the discussion, I will present the followingcaveats from which I will be presenting my opinions.

- Assets: Replacements does not work on super-heavies or gargantuancreatures; flank march (with the exception of Lictors) means from theflanks, and never from the rear- Primary opponent is against the Eldar- The Hierophant, with Warp Field, has a 3++ save. This is not adiscussion about whether or not it is RaW or RaI. It is the way ofthings and the world, and not an item subject to discussion. Basta.

The Codex, from which the majority of our Apocalypse armies will bebuilt contains a number of options, from the mighty Hive Tyrant, to thelowly Ripper. Added to this, we have the legendary creatures which atthis date, are the - Hierophant- Scythed Hierodule- Barded Hierodule- Harridan- Mieotic Spore Sacs- Malanthrope- Trygon (which for the sake of discussion can be bought EITHER fromImperial Armour Apocalypse OR from the Codex (with the Prime-upgrade)- Spore Chimneys- Capillary Towers- Stone-Crusher Carnifex

The Formation Datasheets, are, as far as I recall, the following:- Endless Swarm- Hive Mind brood- Eye of the Hive- Kraken Tendril Swarm

- Behemoth Crusher brood- Genestealer Infestation- Winged Swarm- Subterranean Swarm- Tyranid Infestation- Mycetic Assault Brood

As a thread for discussing the pro's, con's and sneaky ideas for theTyranids, I would suggest that when presenting an idea, you enter theunit, legendary creature or the formation is bold, capital letters inthe beginning, following up with a description of whichbio-morphs/bio-weapons to equip (if possible), and then a primer onhow-to in Apocalypse, with said unit/formation/legendary creature or, ifa header on how to handle "prey" species, then the opposing army inbold, and a run-down on how to handle the worst they have to throw at us- for example on how to handle the Eldar Revenant Titan, which will dealthe pain to us, with 4 strength D shots, large blast a turn.

I hope this will turn into something useful and good, and if that hopeis fulfilled, I will do my best to collate the information in a singledocument.

Cheers in advance - and let the pooling of our combined experiencecommence!

Regards,HMC

Tyranid Spore Infestation

First of all, what does it require to field?

Let's see: 3+ spore mines, 1+ Mieotic Spore Sac, 3 Capillary Towers and1 Spore Chimney. Minimum price for the formation is 90 points. And, whatdo you get for that? Well, you get board wide coverage of Shadows in theWarp, and potentially, free spawning of Spore Mines, whenever the SporeChimney is hit by a non-Tyranid weapon.

Sounds rather nifty. In fact, I think it sounds like a bargain.

Psychic defence is something that we need, especially when dealing withEldar or Space Wolves throwing "Jaws of the World Wolf" left and right.Fielding Deathleaper might be all swell and dandy, but, he only affectsone model (say Eldrad or Njarl), and add the Shadows in the Warp, theywill be pretty hard pressed to get any powers through.

Besides from the financial cost of fielding the formation, I wouldsuggest placing the Spore Chimney right in the face of the enemy -perhaps as a camping ground for a brood of Devourer armed Gaunts: "So,you wanna flush me out with a flamer/blast template? Fine, let's seewhat pops out of the chimney, my friend..."  The Towers can also provideline of sight obstruction to any Hive Guard or Biovores brought alongfor the show.

Also, the formation requires the spores and the sac to be deployedwithin 12" of the chimney, rending them quite useless - the sac isclearly best bought to be deep striking with its S5 AP3 large blast.Ideal for removing MEQs.

And finally - the Chimney and Towers are terrain...they are not blastedapart or removed by anything (except perhaps the Space Marine LineBreaker formation of 3+ Vindicators...) They are sure to be there toannoy the enemy for the entire game.

The Spores and the Mieotic Sac I would suggest bought in minimum numbers- and now that our Spores are deployed pre-game, I think they would onlybe useful in order to deny terrain to our opponent, or first fieldedwhen the Mieotic Sac explodes.

If you have the required pieces, I see no reason at all not to field it.And at the price, it sounds awesome. Just to sum up:

Pro:+ Psychic Defence+ Line of sight obstruction

Con:- financial cost of acquirement- Spore Cluster & Mieotic Sac are quite useless

A final cavaet, though. I have no practical experience with thisformation, so, by all means, chip in.Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE

Classification:  UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE