NATIONAL ARCHIVES

IRELAND

Reference Code: 2007/116/750

Creation Date(s): 28 September 1977

Extent and medium: 21 pages

Creator(s): Department of the Taoiseach

Access Conditions: Open

Copyright: National Archives, Ireland. May only be

reproduced with the written permission of the

Director of the National Archives.

• ··!r"' ~ ~ ~ ~1 • i.i~: ·: ·- . --

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Rcpcrt of Plenar y ~~ct ing

t de-a··tcto 0.J~n~uns ion bct;1:c.~n t he Taoisoac:!l [!.110. the Prime Hinist or

1·rh5ch 1>etr,nn at :u .:;o a . m. After a break for lur..ch at 1.15 p .m.

th e pl cnc:ry l~ c3u,-::c.: ci at 2 . 30 p .m. concludi nG at 5. 00 p.m.

1'ho Pd.l:lc r.:ini ::;t n~ , in formally vrelconinc t he Taoiseach ani the

Minister for Foreign Affairs, reaffirned the British Gover~ment's

desire to work closely with the Irish Government on all matters

affecting their common interests. EEC membership no\'T gave a new

dimension to this cooperation.

The Prime Hinist er suggested that he report on the tete-a-tete

discussion just concluded with the Taoiseach. He had suggested

that the discussions at the meeting should be viewed on a broad

canvass without excessive concentration on ~rorthern Ireland issues

which, '1-rhile, of course, important for both countries were only a

part of their relationship. Inflation, unemployment, the

development of .;ndustry and the attitudes of trade unions were all

matters which concerned both countries, some of them with over-

lapping structures. rflhile cross-border economic cooperation iTa5

an important aspect, economic cooperation sho'J.ld also be seen in

tho broadAr dinensions of Anzlo-Irish interests. He hoped that

officials co~.tld m.cct to disc,lss these questio~s on that basis.

I ...

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Repcrt of FJ cl1:ry Eectine;

Hhich 11(:~~nn at 1l.30 a . la., After a brctlk for l unch at 1.15 p.m .

the plcnc.ry ):C::;U:::'CQ ut 2. 30 p . r!l . concludinG at 5.00 p.m.

1'110 Pr:i.l:1C r:i.n:;,t <"'1.:, in formally uelconinG t he Taoiseach ani the

Minister for Foreign Affairs, reaffirned the British GoverJment's

desire to work closely with the Irish Gover~ment on all matters

affecting their common interests. EEC membership no\'( gave a new

dimension to this cooperation.

The Prime tUnistp.r suggested that he report on the tete-a-tete

discussion just concluded with the Taoiseach. He had suggested

that the discussions at the meeting should be viewed on a broad

canvass without excessive concentration on Northern Ireland issues

which, ,\-Thile, of course, important for both countries were only a

part of their relationship. Inflation, unemployment, the

development of Ll1dustry and the attitudes of trade unions were all

matters which concerned both countries, some of them with over-

lapping structures. Hhile cross-border economic coop~ration "tras

an important aspect, economic cooperation sho'J.ld also be seen in

thn broadp.r dinensions of An~lo-Irish interests. Re hcped that

officials co~.lld !!lcot to disc11SS these questio:1s on that basis.

/ ...

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•

Jio:ctr.c ... n J:::ol<:.nd. ';ihile the di.:.'f.i.cu~t i.cc Here:· rc<.:orrn~ ~eel t 'hoi:h he

desiru.b Jc at tl10 carJ.ic~J l; J?88siblc rr.cf.isnt. There uas no quc:T~ inn

of i ntc:t,rration of l~ o :r:tl::.m ·11 Jrclnn'~ :i · to tl; c United K:.i.ncclo::! r:.o}: i~cro

'!.'he Br.i.L' ~;l1 G ovurnn:en·~ 1:ere coni i nuinG t o ;··ork

f or devolution rnd h e hc..<l fu•o.fted a su,:gozt cc1 stn. ~;enen t f or t l:e

c o •munique to reaffir 1 t h:Lr; . As s oon as it 11os possib l e to t nkc

au i nit i ntive t·:1~:i.ch 1:ou l ll i;~prove r at her th.:m 1;c:t ·en th0 s ituation

t h e B:r:it:i.sh Government i'iOuld do so.

He al so mentioned tha t hie conversation vrith the Taoiseach had

'touched on secur ity questions.

The T <:>.o; seach , referring to the Prin:c Hinistert s congratulations on

the t·osults of the June General Election , said that those :.cesults

perhaps indica ted in some respects the feelincs of Irish people

about the problems of northern Ireland. The iJ:ll)ression had perhaps

crovrn that tbe previous Governl!lent had moved mray from the aspiration

of ult::.mate unity .

His mm contacts led him to believe that disillusionment at the

present political vacuum in Horthorn Ireland 1·:as not felt solely by

politicians. There uer c certainly nc.ny issue3 to discuss in the

broad field of Anglo-Irish rcl.::tion n b'tJ.t there uas a particular need

to look clo~~cly at the pcssibil:i.ties for reintroducinG positive

politica l ~ ctivity in n orther n Irclmlt:: . •

It '''a:.3 of cr ucial i rtpor: cm ce thot the SDL:P :::hould not break up

throuch continui:1g f ru::;trn i:ion at t l1 e l::.1cL of p0li tical move:.nent .

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.) t_

•

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desir'-l1.J l e at tlJiJ earlier; t p:Jssitlc TCCDcnt. Thoro Has no cfL'Cnt i on

of i ntcL,rro.tion of rortl~Cl -lI T:cc.:l~c :i il"LO the united Kincdor.: )'~or l :crc

The J3rit:.i.r:l1 Govurl111:ent i.'er e cont inuinG to ;wrk

f or devolv.b on end h e h '" draf t ed a suCgc3t cd da~;cl.len t f or tloe

cOJ'"imu.'1ique to re ffirm tl~:i.r; . As coon as it H OS possiblo to t<tl~e

the BTi t ish COYG~nment Hc"uld do so.

He also mentioned thnt his conversation "'fith the Taoiseach had

-touched on security questions.

The '1' 3.0; seach, referring to the Pri:c:e Hinistert s conf,rratulations on

the results of the June General Election , said. that thosc results

perhaps indica ted in SOllle respects the feelinGs of Irish people

about tllC pr 00 letls of H orthern Ireland. The i~yression had perhaps

eroi'm that tl1'3 previous Government had moved mray from the aspiration

of ult::..mate unity .

His mm contacts led him to believe that disillusionment at the

present political vacuum in l.orthcrn Ireland 'I'~as not felt solely by

politicians . There 'Hor e certainly llany issue::; to discuss in the

broad field of Anglo-Irish rcldion:; O'\.1.t there \Tas a particular need

to look clo~;cly ut the pcssibilitics for reintroducinG positive

political Clctivity in Horthc:cl1 Irelan"; .•

It 1\'.1:3 of crucial i~por: al1ce that thc SDLP "liould not break up

throuGh cor.Unublg fru ~tl'ni;ion ut tJ Je lao1: of poli ticnl movc:ncnt .

/ ...

• a softcnin~; u_) proces1:) \:hich he felt the Dri i.ish C o·:eJ~nll!('r.i.~

recognised .

}1[1,VC rczcrva.tions, 88 \10U.ld the SDJ1r, a.boul ai y f.J"tOp lc!.;f.: tkm

full devol\).tion 1:hich did not clc:..trly na.rl~: a :~tcp :f.'ol.·::arc1 t01"7Ei.l:cls

t'iutt goal. ~:llo SDL?, for oxumplc, could not oceept a.Dy fo:c1n of

ba.cl~bcnch cor::..uittcc c:,rste~ as a fmbr;titute fo;: poi<Or-sho.,·inc.

Acceptability of t he TIUC c.monB' th8 minority community had boon

enhanced, in par t because of thei:r conduct in the iby str:i.ko and.

in part because of t heir successful action a3ainst Loyalist as

well as against IRA t errorists.

It was necessary, hoHever, to mention some concern about UDR

screening processes. There had been a number of co~victions of

UDR membE'.rS in the recent past for serious cr imina l offences

including murder. On hro occasions members of the northern

Ireland judiciary had criticised the screening process . He

hoped that screening methods might be made more stringent .

Mr Mason said that undoubtedly there vrere 11 bad apples" from time

to time and the Taoiseach' s remarks l'rcre noted.

In response to the Prime I·iinister ' !"! suggestion tha t he give an

account of his view of the present situation in northern Ireland,

Mr l,!ason said that the NIO \·ras beinG run on a basis l-Thich vrould

allow immediate transfer of functions to an asse~bly in Northern

Ireland if and lihen that could be established. There 1·ras no

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Though in) -I.:Lativcs miCht be d:i.ff:i c:.J.l·~ a'~ i;he Illomcmi; thCl"O \:8G

a softonin.:.; up proc85s \rhich he fe:lt the DrH:i.sh G o'!eJ.'nmcnt

noed fo ..

r ecognised .

full dcvolut. ion ,:hich did not elc:l.r 1;)' !.lark Go Btt. P 1'0 ... · .:ard t1)1U ... 'cls

t iwt goal. ~'ilO BDLl', for 0x~~mplc, could not accept any fOJ~m of

bo.cl~bcnch con:nittcc G:,rste!n as e. subf~titute fo".!: pOi;or-sho.xine.

Acceptability of the TIUe t.!.lllong the mi nority COLlt1Unity had boen

enhanced, in part because of t heir conduct i n t!1C Hay striko and.

in part because of their successful action acdnst Loyalist a s

well as against IRA terrorists.

It was necessary, h01<T8Ver, to mention some con cern about UDR

screening processes. There had been a numb er of convictions of

UDR members in the recent past for serious criminal offences

including murder. On hl0 occasions members of the northern

Ireland judiciary had criticised the screening process. He

hoped that screening methods might be made more stringent.

Mr Mason said that undoubtedly there i-lere "bad apples" from time

to time and the Taoiseach t s remarks "rcre noted.

In response to the Prime r'iinister' ~ suggestion that he give an

account of his view of the present situation in Northern Ireland,

Mr l-1ason said that the NIO \'Tas being run on a basis "'hich rlould

allow immediate transfer of functions to an assembly in Northern

Ireland if and w'hen that could be established. There "las no

/ ...

• q_1!ec:l ion of i1.tc;;.::nb on, ,. ere ~ :n:;'' or o UF J' . r c 1. · -1 tri r:ri h.:. ·d

for fully dcvol'V'cu cxccut:i. •c eo'?crn.'llt!1"~.

firnJy t o the Convention Roro~~.

'-rouJ d l13 prc;,):>.:C. d to l ook favour·&b l y upon u. me:1.svrc of intCl. :i m

dcYolu t ion p:rovid.c:1 t he Goal of f u l l u.cvo1 u tion o::.·J ucccpb'blc t e·c .. s

was not s et asl dc .

Discussions uith t l1e politica l parties in Korthcrn I re l and dur :L'lg

the sm:tner had not yielded results . He himself h2.d h ad th·c ~ o

meet ine::; 'd th OUP nnd hro 'tri th the SDLP . Allian c e bad ::.::hm n

readiness to go a l ong ,.rlJ..,h i nteri m de-volution but t he r ecen t Hapier

statement illus trat ed the :p a.rt~r' 8 re adiness to look for politica l

advantaga \'Thcrever it could bo f01.md. He had put fo r 'IIard no

proposals himself for interim devolution, It should first be seen

\'There the parties lrere pra pared to see devolution of a ranee of

r

.I ) pm.;ers .

~ by t he area boards - 1·rhich ;vcre not der:tocratically elected bodies -

~~ .~. )n mThig

1

·hst be brought ••ithin the enbit of an interim devolved structure ,

fJ ~~ I {... structure might be S0tl3 form Of COuncil Or regional assembly

with 1:cal pov;ers .

It could be that so::~e of tho pm·rers at present exercised

Over the sumner th~J change of Government in Dublin and the Queen ' s

visit might both have hardened attitudes in the Uorth . He uanted,

hovrev e:.= , t o get private talks going aeain . He also wanted to keep

the SDLP l eadership together and t o maintain the party ' s role as a

cohesive political force .

I .. t

i~ : , •

for Itllly dcvolV'c:d cY-cc'..Hi r ,) t Ycrnl.:!t)1i;. He k:.d to uc1r~;i t fuil ""J

to uchi<:.ve pro~ :u:';s :::0 h:.r .

firrfly t o t he Cor.vc~1t.i.(\n Report.

devolut ion JJl'ov ic1c'1 th e Goal of f ull u.o ro) u Jlo io:n or} UCGcpbb l o tr,;:cm:1

was not sct a~idc .

Discussions ,;ith tllc politic~ J. parti es in !'~ orthcl'n Irelx."1d dur :i."1g

the SU~Der had not yielded reGults . lIe hirlsclf hQ.rJ h3.(l t}rc ~ c

meetinefJ ,~ i th OUP Md hlO ',ri th the SDLP . AlliD.11CC had 8h0' n

readiness to go alon~ "lHh interi m deV'olution but the r ecent Hapier

statement illustr ated the part:r 's r eadiness to look f or politica l

advantage \-Thercver it could bo f O'lmd. He h ad put for\iard no

proposals himself for inter i m devolution . It shoul d first be s e en

\-There the parties \'Tere pre pared to see devolution of a ranee of

It could be that SO::le of the pO"rers at present exercised

~ by the area boards - l'7hich ;ier e not denocratically elected bodies -r

.I ) pm'/'ers .

~f ,~. )n mThigl..hst be brought 'I-;ithin the anbit of an interim devolv ed struct ure .

r ~~ I t.. structure might be S003 form of council or regional assembly

with real pO"l'Ters .

Over the sut1I:ler the change of Governt:1ent in Dublin and the Queen ' s

visit might both have hardened attitudes in the lTorth . He '·Tanted.,

hO"leve:c , to get private talks going aeain . He also wented to keep

the SDLP l eadership together and t o maintain the party ' s role as a

cohesive politicnl for ce .

/ •• f

• In rcco;nitbn of the ~)1 1LP 1 ~.1 I/!:~·oblcr:J~ hG had "on~;:i.necrcc:" a

Quest ion in t} c hm.1 ::;c l:1s t Hovc;nber :i.n order to rcd'firm. the

Government 1 s :ccsolvc to ac:1icve devolvr~cl eovernmcnt based on

poucr-sha.rinc. There h:l.CJ been conm).Hation v.Li:h the Irish

Government on this <n1cl'the British Go-.rcrnr-lcnt ' s po;Jition h ad

b een supported 1)y the Opposition . On direct elections , the

Goverr:.raent h nd :propoced three scats for lTorther~1 Ir<"land

elected on the STV basis. This had been done uith SDLP

interel:Jts in mind and gave Horthern Ireland a uniq_ue status

in t he Governmen t's direct e l ect ion proposals . The sett::.nc;

up of a Speakers Conference to examine Horthern Irelanci.

representation at Hestminster had b een necessary in the context

of the proposals for Scottish and Helsh devolution. Gerry Fitt

was a member of the Speakers Conference and it was possible that

the SDLP could get two or three of the additional seats. These

various moves hc.d been part of his polic~t to keep the SDLP

together as the voice of the minority.

There 1'1'as a need for care that the pre'3ent meeting should not

arouse nevt resentments or harden attitudes. He hoped in a week

or so that he might be able to start private discussions again

with the political parties in Northern Ireland on the question

of interim devolved government.

The Taoiseach said that he vias not speaking for the SDLP but it

was the Irish Government's urgent desire to get political activity

under 1·ray again in Northern Ireland. In response to a suggestion

I .. .

I I~ r

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In recob11Hi~n of the m'Ll'!f; I)~obler:ls 110 had "cn~;inGerCCllI a

QUCGtiOll in the 1101.13e l:1sl; Hovcllller :'11 order to );o;d'firr!l. thc

Government's :ccnolvc to aC:licve devolv~cl t'~yrer!lmCD~ b~sed on

pouer-sharinG. TJ::ere h~~d been connuHation vith the Irish

Government on this Dnd'the Bl~iti8h Go-/crm1ent ' s pO;1:i.tion h ad

been supported 1)y the Opposition . On direct elections, the

Governr:lent h ad pl'opoced three scats for lTorther:1 Ireland

elected on thL~ STV basis. This had been done uith SDLP

intercnts in mind and gave Northern Ireland a unioye status

in the Governmen t's direct elect ion proposals. The setting

up of a Speakers Conference to examine Horthern Irelanci

representation at \'lestminst~r had been nec\;..ssary in the context

of the proposals for Scottish and 1~elsh devolution. Gerry Fitt

was a member of the Speakers Conference and it was possible that

the SDLP could get two or three of the additional seats. These

var~moves hed been part of his policy to keep the SDLP

together as the voice of the minority .

There 'ias a need for care that the pre<)ent meeting should not

arouse nCVT resentments or harden attitudes . He hoped in a week

or so that he might be able to start private discussions again

with the politieal parties in Northern" Ireland on the question

of interim devolved government .

The Taoiseach said that he 'viaS not speaking for the SDLP but it

was the Irish Government ' s urGent desire to get political activity

under "Tay again in Northern Ireland . In response to a suggestion

/ ...

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r 0

Govon.n:2~1t could talk to Urlioni:; l::J as 1·rcll v.::; the ~lDJ,P 'Lhe

I~j'0_:i ·:-tc:.s. ;_;air1 tlnt tLo Govc:tnmcnt uould certainly like to do co .

So fnr h'JiiCVL-l' , su.ch su,:;gc:>ticn:; had not ·.-;ith a ncc;n.t:i.vc :>:erpon:::e.

Of cOUl'f;C:, 'fl}'ivvtc contacts tool· place from time to tir.1c . ~'( l>vJ-..t 6..-A..J ~~v.. v--:v~ c..s..r~>J!..:.,J:; Ll"'l.V--Vt, /).;J /~ a...H h.~ .. JJ.t) (~~t:tA.Lt _

Ackcd by the PriDe Einistcr r.bout the Allia.."lcc Party , N~E~

said th;:.t the party i·:as mainly composed of Ja:idd l e c larm people

'·1h o 1mnt(:d to r i se above t h e sectarian divide . 'l'hcre ucre a

f evr Catholics i n the party uhich, vrith 145~ of the vo te , had c ome

i n third in the las t l oca l e l ection althoueh uinning l ess seat s

than JJJP . The H:inistc:;:- ob ser red t hat Ailiance' s ro1 o as ~~

bride-ing party '(laS ext remely limited since it dreu minima l )

t f th . . t . . t .,,. I I L ' . I 1-SU11por rom c mJ..norJ.. ;y comH:unJ.. y 1 r.v-1 1, ~"~~v.;l vvvv~~ :.r.. ~ v-.1\./,·v.~~ . , .. ;

~Cr..U~)· ;'VV.N..-- to......;.- 1 1;~ lfv--1-"-t.-~w~ N:! 't_#{ tl c.&f,__,J-~ The Taoiseach raised the matter of an inclusion in the communique

of a reference to nationalist aspirations . The Prime Hinister

suggested that such a reference could seriously compromise the

prospects of getting talks started again among the political

parties . Hr Has on agreed . The result 1·rould be to harden

positions seriously and perhaps cement nevr alliances between

t he Official Unionists and Paisley . He mentioned in confidence

that \vest 1 s "Lieutenants" 1·rere ready to move him ar.·ray from his

Convention report or nothing line .

The Hinister observed that ,,·lest had not objected in the past to

cross- border cooperation on economic matters . This was an obvious

area for joint discussions .

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• GO'Jornm(.nt co tld taJk to Un:i.Old:J L3 as "lcll v.G the :mLP the

So fer hOilCVLl:, ,-,ue 1 su!'nc3ticn:; had net ',dtll a neGative ::ef':ponse.

Of cou~r;(~, p1'iv[ te contacts "\,00)' place from time to time. ~"(~ ~ ~~~ '\)-:v~ uv~ vt-; f.il.~'-Vt,\ [).N ~~ QU hJJ:t) (~~~t-l Ac.kcd by the PriEc Eininter nbout the Alliance Party, T'T~1i~

said that the pn.rty .ms n.ainlJo composed of middle class people

Vlho l1antod to rine al:.ovo the scct l'ian divide . There i1cre a

fe\'T Cdholics in the party \'lhich, Hith 14$~ of the voto, had come

in third in the last local eloo1:ion a1 thoue;h llinnine lOR5 seats

than JYJP. The j.jjnj ste:::' obscr reel that Alliance's rOl;-as-;~

bridging party "TaS extremely limited since it drell minimal )

t f th ' , t ' t '/,.. I I i- , . I ;. suppor rom ° ml.l1orl.;Y COImmnl. y, Lv) 1''''1,,~.,1l VVvv'/~v'\. ~ vAItv.,~, \ .. I

~Cr..uv ' ;~./lN~ ~,;... 1 lIk t.rJA-1r-~N~ NI Ib l4. t.,6\JJ-rJ.. ~ The Taoiseach raised the matter of an inclusion in the communique

of a reference to nationalist aspirations . The Prime Hinister

suggested that such a reference eould seriously compromise the

prospects of getting talks started again anong the political

parties . Hr 1-1a50n agreed . The result "Tould be to harden

positions seriously and perhaps cement ne"T alliances between

the Official Unionists and Paisley . He mentioned in confidence

that 'vest t s "Lieutenants" "Tere ready to move him a~'Tay from his

Convention report or nothing line .

The Hinistcr observed that '.'lest had not objected in the past to

cross- border cooperation on economic matters . This "Tas an obviouB

area for joint discussions .

/ ...

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• and 1.ll1t:lJplo~{T:lcnt, for: example, n. 1-cy probleL1 nor ell Gnd south.

and a role to aiel cooperation on regional studies ancl unemp1oyr:Jcn1:

problcr~s.

Hr r.ll_ll'~ Baid J~h.-,t the publ:i.c sector lent l"LGelf relatively eosy

to such cooperation. This a1:ceQdy existed bcti·Tecn the Electrici t~·

Boards <:nrJ also 1>ch;een the Dep2.rtments conecrned on qucsticns 1l " Q. . (Ill ~t.....vv-J/ p-<>-N.jft- uJJ'

such as the F'oyle fiG11crics, dr.?.inace nnd b:o.nsport . ~~ P·.tf"...t:..-? ~C>c-~

e~-J y·\)-..i~ studies 1·rerc already under •,r c..y) -Po \fo- - - - --, ;.,

Tie ae,Teed that there n icht "\"Tell

t»-~ · _,/ De a need for more ·j There could. be meetincs betiTeen off icials to

revie,·r cross-border cooperat i on possibili ti cs and to mr1ke

susgcstions foJ~ specific projects. If necessary, in t~TO or three

months time, progress could be rcvie1·1ed at Ihnisterial level

althour;h it uas not necessary to rea.ise the matter of t:.inisterial

meetincs immediately. J.AA 'NI.t.·~~~ L-lA..~~ 0J "' ~~-...'A.A..._"¥1 "'-~ &. \N ltAMt t.•-'-iL-1 ~'-"'1 w-.~ V.. k>ANJ <-lJLP-.t -" -~ ~*hl\ uvv!l ~ UN~ .

_.,....____- \"/hen the r;eeting resumed nf~er lunch there v:as a brief

discussion of a draft corn..'ilunique prepared in the interval. The

Tao:i.se!'lch suggested that tlle comrnuni~ue mieht include a reference

t o the declaration made by the British Government at Sunningdale

t hat if a majority in Northern Irela.nd should in the future evidence

a vrish for unity uith the rest of IrelE.nd , tl:e. British Governr.wnt

\oiOuld support tho.t l'rish . The Prime !·:inist~-= and ·~r !·'iason said

·that the inclusion o£' such a reference could seriously cooprornise

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• and \mcrJplO~t!:lcn{;, for example, c. )-oy probJ.C"l norel) 3.llU south.

11e DGrcf"!d lIith the me had u r08pN~s'Lbilii;y

and u role to id cooperation on regional Grudics Rl1cl uncmployucnt

Hr Hnc.0Tl ~3aid -::11.:1t the: l'ubl:Lc scclor' lent itself relaUvcly cosy

to such coopcrnlion. This al:cec.dy existed bc"been the Electricit:>r

Boards <:nrl also 1lChiCCl1 thc Dep?J:tments eonecrned on quos tiens 1\ ".. ~ • (~ ~t...v"1/ P-Cl-NJP- u.)J'

such as the P()ylG fisbcries, dr2.inece and tronsport . ~~ p,tf"~-? ~Cft.~

eN y"'--'-~ studies lrere already under 'ITC:.,y) ~ \.fo. _ _ --, /'

TIe ue;reed that there miGht ~Tell

~~ . ~/ be a need for morc i There could be meetings bct\leen officials to

revim'l cross-bord.er cooperation possibili tics end to J1!:lke

suggestions for specific projects . If necessary, in t~'/O or three

months time , progress could be reViei'led at Hinisterial level

althouGh it "las not necessary to r .:1ise the matter of !·:inisterial

meetings i mmediately. /AA ~,~", LlA.~.A 0J ,. <Ly~,,:~.l-'-A.A.."'~ "'-~ i. w LlAMt L'-'-lLl ~'-"1 w-...~~ v.. k>ANJ ~ L,~ C~"-.I>\ vvv/I ~ Vvv ~ .

--- \{hen the neeting resumed /---- af~er lunch there y7aS a brief

discussion of a draft cot!l.'nunique prepared in the interval. The

Taoiseacp suggested that the communi;ue mieht include a reference

t o the declaration made by the British Government at Sur.ningdale

that if a majority in Northern Irela.nd should in the future evidence

a vTish for unity uith the rest of IrelE.nd , t1:e, British Governmont

liould support that "'ish . The PriGle Y·:ini C!b'r and Er !·'i o.son said

'that the inclusion of such a reference could seriously coopromise

/ ...

• e rc:cyL11:tnr~ ,;h~~cL i:llc l'r;;:Gr.mt n:nct:inc- hcpcd to acbieve. Prcs::,ocl

by tho 'l'o.oica~.ch D.3 to ·,;hethor thi:.> !nE:ant that t'tcro \·:as r.or:1e

diC. not. But Sunningclr.lc hacl inclvdcd a nu.r.:1cr of clements

SOJ~lC of \·.ld.cll had not r:.nterialiscd. It 1Wu.l d not be helpful

nou to make < ny reference to a particular aspect since this v:ould

necessitate tho British Goverr:.uwnt ' s placine Hs m·m emphasis on

other aspects . It Has agreed to take up the cor:1munique again

l ater.

• by the To.oiuc[.ch 0.3 to "\":wthcr this !nE:ant tho.t tr..crc \.~D.:':; ~oue

die. not. Dut Sunningdc.lo had included a nu.r.:bc:r o~ elements

GOJJ.C of \,:hicJl had not r~.aterio.liscd. It would not be helpful

nOH to make [.ny reference to a par.ticular a::::pcct since this v,ould

neces~.:;itatc the British Government's placing Hs mm emphasis on

other aspects. It "las ag-.coed to take up the comm.lllique ngllin

later .

• 9

'i.1he .T:tojnc.:J.cl sa:i.d th::tt coopcruti.on on security questions

socm-:ri to be proceeding sntisfnctorily ar1d he undc:;:;:;tood

that the 'British had no p:trticuln.r problE'ns to ro.ise .

1-'Ir !:1{)[~ confirmed British appreciation of the sucoss of co-

operation t o date . The neu Government had dispel led any

unease t hat there would be any chanGe of policy i n this

area and its statement follmving the SAS intrusion incident

1·1hich occurred immedia tely follmving the Government's

assumption of office had been most helpful.

Cooperation 1-ras ivorking i·rell but more should be done. Revieidng

the past year, he said that troop levels had been maintained

at the 14,000 level. The UDR had been built up (he agreed

careful screening 1-ras essential). The RUC establishment had

been increased. The SAS l'lere no-vr operating throughout Northern

Ireland and there had been an increase in special army

personnel for covert intelligence activity. RUC resources in

forensic and technical 1-rork had been increased and RUC

anti-terrorist units established. The partnership behreen

the Army and the RUC lias working uell. Statistics showed

a dramatic reduction in incidents of violence except so far as

members of the security forces l-Tere concerned.

He felt that things ivould continue to improve although a

special watch must be kept on the use of incendiary devices

and actions of maverick PIRA groups . Cooperation behreen the

I ...

9

• Becul'i t r Uoo")O)'<1 tj 01 ____ -4 ._~ ___ _

'1'11e ,T:tojf)CaC1 sri:i.d th:J.t coopcruti.on on seGurity questions

sccm-:tl to be proceeding satisfactorily ar~d he unde:rr.;tood

that the 'British had no p2rticular problC'Ds to raise.

Hr HaQ.Qll. confirmed British appreeint:ion of the sucess of co-

operation to ~te. The n(31T Government had dir.l)elled any

unease that there 1-1ould be any change of policy in thi s

area and its statement follmving t he SAS i ntrusion incident

'~hich occurred immediately f ol l m'iing the Government's

assumption of office had been mos t h elpful.

Cooperation "'as uorking 1·;ell but more should be done. Revie,dng

the past year, he said tha t troop levels had been maintained

at the 14,000 level. The UDR had been built up (he agreed

careful screening was es sential). The RUC establishment had

been increased. The SAS ''lere nOvT operating throughout Northern

Ireland and there h ad been an increase in special army

personnel for covert intelligence activity. RUC resources in

forensic and technical "Tork had been increased and RUC

anti-terrorist units established. The partnership bet1veen

the Army and the RUC \vas working well. Statistics showed

a dramatic reduction in incidents of violence except so far as

members of the security forces "Tere concerned.

Be felt tha t things liould continue to improve although a

special watch must be kept on the use of incendiary devices

and actions of maverick PlRA groups . Cooperation bebieen the

I ...

• J O

HUC and the: GnrU.ai \lac: very c;oocl, lif> the 8Cf1.JC CZC 011 tc:t'.COriGb

tightenE:cls hOiTcverp border :::urvei1lD.!lCO 1~as hecoming of

er·cater importcmcc tllu.n ever. '.i'hc l'h!!.~ ob:::crvccl jn

this conncct:Lon that DritiDh rJtutistic:-: on incidents of

border-related vio~cncc sho~wd. that these contim.:.ecl to be a

very sraallp aud dimin:L~hing1 pa:rt of the total problem 9

the mos t recent statistics indicating a figure of 1.4~; of

total incidents of violence in Ho:r:thorn Irelo.nd~

~1r Hasan sc.id that there Has also a need for cr:.reful surveillance

of movement of material or persmmel to the Dri tich mainland.. A

very important factor in the success in dealing i'Ti th the IRA in

the North bad been the great increase in the public's

readiness to provide information. A spill-over of violence

to the mainland was 'Harrying because it could cause extreme

Loyalists to bring similar violence to the South.

He hoped that there rTould be continuing interest at Hinisterial

level on our part in border security cooperation.

. C),v 'llie Prime Ninister said that he r1as extremely impressed by ettr ) .

1 [),\).~~ • 0'\N, p (.1.-~I.JJ/ ~ {:o ~ ~ cooperation/on security matter~ The Taoisea ch said that there ~~~

was no question but that this cooperation would continue

and could be extended if necessary. As regards meetings

of l·finisters on security matters, it was our position, and.

had been in the past, that since the Secretary of State

for Northern Ireland exercised functions over all aspectn

of Northern Ireland policy, the ?-linister for Foreign Affairs

/ ... -··------------- ------ ---- -

10

• Hue and t1ll: Gardui \w.s V0rj Good. 1.3 the nqucczo on "vcr.coricb

tiChtenE.cls ho. cverp border nurv ill~lce l~~ s becoming of

61'a~ter importance tllu.n ever.

this connection that Bri tinh fJ '.:3oti31..ic:1 on i1.ci<1(;nts of

border-related vio1.uncc sho:wd l..hLlt tl10'"'C contim..:.od. to he a

very srnallp and diminishing/part of the total problem~

t he mos t recent statistics indicnting a fig'J.:ce of 1.4~; of

tota l incidents of vi olence in Ho:r:thorn Irelund.

Hr J.las on s.:.. i d t hat t here "ias a l s o a need f or cf:.reful surveillance

of movement of ma t eri a l or per s onne l to the 13ri 1..inh mainland.. A

very important f actor in t h e success in dea ling ,d t11 the IR.4. i n

the North ba d been the grea t increas e in the public's

readiness to provide information . A spill-over of violence

to the mainland , .. as 'Horrying because it could cause extreme

Loyalists to bring similar violence to the South.

He hoped that there rTould be continuing interest at Hinisterial

level on our part in border security cooperation.

. c),v '!he Prime J.1inis ter said that he rTas extremely impressed by Ottr ) .

1 a\),~~ . C"Nt P l.1.-U-A,UJi ~ {:o ~ ~ cooperation/on security matter'(- The Taoisea ch said that there ~~~

was no question but that this cooperation would continue

and could be extended if necessary. As regards meetings

of l·iinisters on security matters, it was our position, and

had been in the past, that since the Secretary of State

for Northern Ireland exercised functions over all aspects

of Northern Ireland policy, the Ninister for Foreign Affairs

/ ...

__ .. _______ u~_--

I

If -.--.----- ---_._-- - --- ---

f

•

·------------ ···----- .. ,,

lJ

Has his approp:da tc co ntcrrxn:t on our side but that, of

cour:::c, if secU1~ity J::.::tttcrs uerc to be diccu::;secl :Ln any

meetings 1·li -til the .SGcretn.:ey of State, the Einiater :f.'or Juctice

could be brouc;ht into the discussions~ or other Hinisters,

as nece8sary , in other areas.

Stric t attention 1ms Given on our side to border su:cvoillanco

and one-eighth of the Gardai force (so:ne 1 ,000 men ) \·;ere

assigned to border duties .

Emerr,ency Povrers J ct

The Taoiseach expla ined the pos ition regarding Section 2 of

the Act '1-Thich Hill laps e on 16th October unless renewed

by Hinisterial order. Experience has sho1m tha t the courts

'\orere treating '1-Ti th great suspicion and, in effect, not accepting

statements or confessions from pris oners held under the seven day

provisions. It was questionable hm·r effective these provisions '1-Tere.

In addition, there had been public apprehension about the

extension of the pol'rers given to the Gardai and there appeared

to be some falline off in readiness to supply information

as a result. The Amnesty International Report had been

critical of the treatment received by some persons apprehended under

these provisions and the Hinister for Justice I'Tas at present

considering a report by the Gardai on the Amnesty findings. The

Government '1-Tould be considering next 1-reek the question of

renewal of Section 2. If it uere not renewed, Section 30

of the 1939 Offences Against the State Act would become

applicable giving the pol-rer of detention for an additional

I ...

•

----- ... _----_ .. "

1J.

HaS din approp:dute COLti tcrp:u:t Oll our side but tlw.t, of

courne, if sccur:i ty J:Jo.tters IT'cJre to be c3iccu ... ss6cl in any

mcetinf,s "Iith the SGCrctal::Y of sta te, the I·li:aistcr for Ju:::tiee

could be brouGht into the discussions ~ or othe:r: l{-Lnisters,

as necessary s in other areas.

s trict attention ,·ms ~iven on our aide to border su:r:vcdllanco

and onc-eighth of the Garuai force (so:ne 1,000 men ) ,·;ere

assigned to border duties .

Emerf,ency PovTers Ae t

The Taoiseach explained the position r egarding Sect ion 2 of

the Act "lhieh uill lapse on 16th October unles s rene,.;cd

by 1·1inisterial order. Experience has Sh01'ffi that the courts

"Tere treating \,li th great suspicion and, in effect, not accepting

statements or confessions from prisoners held under the seven day

provisions~ It was questionable hon effective these provisions were.

In addition, there had been public apprehension about the

extension of the pOHers given to the Gardai and there appeared

to be some falling off in readiness to supply information

as a result. The Amnesty International Report had been

critical of the treatment received by some persons appreh~nded under

these provisions and the Hinister for Justice "las at present

considering a report by the Gardai on the Amnesty findings . The

Government ",ould be considering next "Teek the question of

renewal of Section 2. If it 1'1ere not renewed, Section 30

of the 1939 Offences Against the State Act would become

applicable giving the pm'Ter of detention for an additional

/ ...

I

I • .• I?

24. llourc beyond the fil~.'Jt 2•i· if c .... :•:tifiecl nccc:sG.:J.IJ• i.>y a conior

police officer~

Hr HDson. said that the RUC had founcl tho scvC'n cL y detention

provision i nv.:.luablc, po..rticularly as it eave ncc:<:ssary time

f or f orens ic lab ora to:r.y tcs ts '~hich ue:r.:o oftex1 crucial.

T'nerc uas s ome risk that a. change :b1 our provisiona might be

cxpJ.oi ted as a :r.clnxation of anti-terroris t measUJ:eo c.nd this

1wuld be unf ortunat e.

The Prime Hinister said tha t the I r i sh Go·..rernT:',ent ' s judgl!lent

in this matter ·...rns obviously not some thing for him to

challenge. But the pres entation of any change uould be

ver;r important and he hoped, in particular, that the Taoiseach

would use the occasion of his meeting uith Hrs T'natcher to

explain his thinking in this area . Airey Neave uas one uho

mieh t exploit the situation if it '~ere not properly explained.

President Car t er's Sta t ement on Northern Ireland

Both sides reaffirmed their welcome for the statement . The

l{inister re~rked that it might perhaps be additionally useful

in encouraging greater interest on the part of the EEC

in alleviating Northel.'!l Ireland problems . Hr !·~as on

agreed that the Community ' s role in developing cross-border

studies -rras to be encouraged but it 1·Tas not the Corr.muni ty ' s function

to intervene or advise on more general areas of Northern Ireland

policy.

/ ...

• ... 1?

24- hour;:: beyond t.he fil:st 2:i· if cc:c:tificcl n(:(;0~::Ja1.J' by 3. cenior

police of.ficer.

joj].' J:~.s()n. said t:l:d; the hUC had found. t.110 CCVC'}l c1~ Y detention

provision invo.luable, p:1rticularly os it G""vc nc(:t:.wo.ry time

for forensi c laboratory teats \~hi('h 1-IE)):0 often CT.uci()l.

T'nere lTUS some rink that a. cban~e :ll) our provision:> might be

exploited as a relaxation of anti-tcrror.ist mcusm:en and this

l'1Ould be unfortunate.

The Prime -iinister said that the I rish Goverru;,cnt's jud~ent

in this matter '\'Ta~ obviously not something for him to

challenge. But the presentation of any change uould be

very important and he hoped, in particula r, that the TaoiseLich

would use the occasion of his meeting 1'7i th Hrs T'na tcher to

explain his thinking in this area. Airey Neave nas one uho

mieht exploit the situation if it 'vere not properly explained.

President Carter's sta tement on Northern Ireland

Both sides reaffirmed their welcome for the statement . The

l{inister remarked that it might perhaps be additionally useful

in encourasing greater interest on the part of the EEC

in alleviating Northern Ireland problems .

agreed that the Community ' s role in developing cross-border

studies .. TaS to be encouraged but it '-Tas not the Corr.m.uni ty ' s fu.l'1ction

to intervene or advise on more general areas of Northern Ireland

policy.

/ ...

13

• The P~i!'1(! 1-::ir• :b,:~t c :r:_ 8nid that tho Drit:Lch Govcnmcnt recorrniccd a.."ld

Has e:ca tcful for tho very important r..chievemcnts of Irish Hininters

i n t he u.s . i!1 b1:int;ing about a ni(>nificc.nt cllon(..;C of attitude

amonl!, Irish knoricans on this rea ttcr . He mentioned that Ilr Hason

uou.lcl be ·visi tj ng the U. S. in October .

(: ,., (\. Referring t o his . imminent vi s it t o t he U.S.r t he J.:lnictcr said t ha t

f ,

Irish 1-"inis tcJ~s llere able to speak with par ticular effect :l.n this

domain. He urged caut i on about any undue insi~J tcnce on the subj ect

by Hr Na son dur ing his visit. The Dri tish voice in this C.mnain

could be counter-productive particularly if n0t clearly balanced i'li th

denunciation of support from Loyalist sources.

The Eri._me 1·Li.nj s tor agreed and J.ir Has on added that this i·Ta~ good

advice and he accepted it.

lt W >Treatment of Irish Prisoners in Britain

~ The Tao1 seach observed that complaints of maltreatment had been w~

'-"-;vx~) , .J._).., \j-f'J-

made in a number of instances . '·lithout dwelling on the matter, he ------------------it necessary to allude to it~ The Prime Minister said that

~ oJs~

?'

he rras not aware of any ill-trea tmen tn , but complaints about the

treatment of Irish or any other prisoners uere fully investigated.

They uould look at any particular cc:.se raised in the normal way .

He felt tl~at some complaints rmre certainly attributable t o

propaganda motives.

/ ...

13

•

i'iaS Grateful for the veJ.'Y important achievemc:nts of Irish Hiniaters

i n the U.S . D1 brinGing about a si(;nifice.nt cl1Dl1r;C of attitude

among Irish L'!lorican:::: on this rea tter . He mentioned that Hr l1a80n

uould be visith16 the; U. S . ill October .

C,.: .'\. ReferrinG to his. imminent v i s it t o t he U.S. r the J.:inistcr said t hat

" Irish l'';ini s tG)~S \Tere able to speak Hi th par ticular eff ect in this

domain. He urged caut i on about any undue insistence on the subj ect

by Hr Ha son dur ing hi3 visit. The British voiee in this domain

could be counter-productive particuln.rly if nnt clearly balanced i';i th

denunciation of support from Loyn.list sources.

The Prime l-hi-nj s ter agreed and Hr Hason added that this uas good

advice and he accepted it.

Jt

~ ~ Treatment of Irish Prisoners in Britain

~ The Taoj seach observed that complaints of maltreatment had been ~~

~~ ~ made in a number of instances.

,...e-~~) --;:It it necessary to allude to it:! The Prime Minister said that ~\.:v ;(

"lithout dwelling on the matter, he

~ry./'o . A~ he i'TaS not aware of any ill-treatmentn , but complaints about the

~~ I treatment of Irish or any other prisoners lIere fully investigated.

~~ ~

T' They i"Tould look at any particular ce.se raised in the normal way .

He felt tl~at some complaints i'lere certainly attributable to

propaganda motives.

I .. ·

• The !Hnistc:r said that problems arwo from tiL1c to tir,1e in this

c onnect:i.cn :r.cqui:dnt: u::: to rcqucDt cz:reditiOI.lS action. The

helpful re:::ponscs received 1·1erc appreciated.

The Ihni~t01.' said that problcnls arOSE) from til.lc to time in this

connect:i Cll r:cqul:dnt,:; UIJ to rcquoiJt c:r.pedi tioi.ls action. '111e

helpful xecponscs received uere appreciated.

• l~l 'lrt;cment .. --·--·-

d \}1

•rrcatics accepted thnt countries qualifie f()~ r.c;nbcr.shin of the [_.~,.,v ~-'"".JJ.

BEC should be admitt .d. There uerc of cou.r:_,c c1 :i.fficul~.ies

includinG the proble;a:::; of mcditc:cruneo.n ag.deultm:c und tl,e::i.r -relevance for the Community b"udect.

(h.\ l}'Q w Britain fully r00ocrd ~cd,

(CN'J~\>.JMJv\s hov;evcr, the dcnirability for tho o.pplicnnt States themselves of t\J\."}~ t\,U,..-b'J

Conununi ty membership given the move on the p~ut of all three to \.!, r1;,).)\j~"''"' d,

d0mocratic institutions. "~~~'-'~~1\.~~tv~.W.~~ ~ ~d-r ~ 'AJ~'1'.J; 1 G.vJ-t~lv'-\: ·uA..)' ~

Hr J udd said that Britain favoured a Comnuni ty of hrelve . Tre U/~~~~'}--{

ne1f candidacies f or membership po::::ed a vi tal politica l challclige li-~'_.-v-..J.....s ) -~W~

(fo~~ for the strengthening of "'estern democracy and the economic

problems, though recocnisod, could not stand in the uay.

'lhe Prime Hinister said that he hoped enlargement vrould bring a

nerr touch of reality into the Community. n1e Tindemans report

had focused on theory rather than practice. In the British vievr the ~~--l; ~ w~ vV-.-1 ~ \...W j1U-Nv\.1J (.J:> ~L).. -~~L~ fA-v....t f l1l". tJRUJ

,..-~reality of the Communi 1..-y ·1-1as a group of nation States cooperating \";:},/ .

7:~~ wi tn all the closeness l·<hich common interests necessitated but

federal concepts were not relevant. He wanted no first or secon

tier of Community membership (Britain, he suggested, might find ~a~Cv: ~ Clv. 1"./"';J

/Mv~ itself in the outer tier). Within the: next fevr days, before the

Labour Conference, he intended to make a statement on Britain's

view of the Communi tics' long-term objectives and the reforms lihich /Vi'~~. should bring the Community more into line with re~lity. ~t 0v~ ~ ~ <AL~ ~ ~ ·\J}.J 7 u..~·~V'v\).,, ~\ ~\ ~ \_~ ~ <N F~ J-~ ~ ~ tMAA;l

~"--" ~ ~v,~)v w VJ-r ~A/ •. O

•

· .. _ ...... _---

Enl:J.:crcmon t . __ ... _--

includinG the problems of meditc:crnncnn agr.clcul tm.:e and the::i.r -rhJ tQ ~

Britain ful1y r(l(':ocn:J:1c.d, Q,w;,sWW.,\.s-

relevance for the Community bud~ct.

ho'\\evcr, the dCOirabilJ,·.ty for the: nppljcnnt statcr; themselves of r\ .. \,L \ I!.., wv rll'l~ U\.\.,l.:")')

Conununi ty membership given the move 011 the l;3.rt of all three to \.t, rJ:) \jw~" f ~

d'Jmocra tic ins ti tutions. '-I~~~v~\...J).A,\ ~f'l'\.-I tv~~ ~">{ ~ ~~( ~ \.AJ~i'.J) I G.",,* t.M./ ~ <9,--5'_

Hr J udd said that Britain favoured a Comnuni t y of hTel vc . T'r e UI~~~I~\~-{

n e,., candidacies f or membership po:-;cd a v i tal politica l challcl!ge ()..)~~\J ... ./' ... i....s y -~ ()J~

(;J. ~~~ for the strengthening of ",estern democr a cy and the economic

problems, though r ecocni sed, could not stand in th e "'ay.

'ilie Prime 11inister said t ha t he hoped enlargement vrould bri ng a

neu touch of reality into the Community. The Tindemans report

had focused on theory r a ther than practice. In the British vie,,; t he ~wL~ ~ w vV---I ~ U0 LUJ..Jv'-V ~ ~t.),. '~~L~ fh"'-.t tM1'1 I.J~

~reali ty of the Communi l;y .... Tas a group of nation s tates cooperating flLl . wit11 all the closeness 'I'lhich common interests necessitated but

federal concepts were not relevant. ~'*~t~

He wanted no first or secon ~ ~{j O--ja~~ Vl ~ k/O:

~~~ itself in the outer tier). Wi thin the: next fem days, before the

tier of Community membership (Britain, he suggested, might find

Labour Conference, he intended to make a statement on Britain's

;1rt\.t4L, J 1/. view of the Communi tics I long-tern objectives and the reforms '''hich ( (j ~ VV(

should bring the Community more into line wi th re~li ty. ~Lt W~

~ '-'vJJvJ ~~ ~ ~ tfl.J 7 ALL'vV'v~ ~\ ~\ ~~ \.~ ~ ~ ~Y' J-~ ~ ~ tMA.AA

~~\)N~~hJW ~ ~ .. / ...

1G

• 'l'hc 'J'[\oi:>Oilt~h r;uid ti!a t he too 1·:ould be firnly opposed to any ---·-fi r:::t or sccor~<l rner:;.bcr~:h:i.p tier . ~o rncocnjscd tho political

dc[d 'l:abi1:i. 'Ly of onlLWGCDCI1t but the c:conomic problemc i nvolycd

llOul d have t o be resolved. \le :r.cc~.rded i t ar; of pararc;ount

:iJ~lportance th .~.t the ens cntia l struct-ures of the Cl.J' should rcr.t:lin

intact .

The Hiniste,~ Da:i.d tha t he had arran.r;ed to mec;:t Hi th Dr Oi-mn 011

2.~-..~ 6:th Hov~:;mbor to dis cus s t hi s and other matter;:; . He 1·1ere not

setting preconditioDs f or the applicants so much as for tho

Community itself. The Co~unity must face and res olve the ,· 1,1 ""-·' c.":.tr

institut ional/ problems posed by enl a:ceement and t:b.is should be

an inteeral part of the >Th ole exercis e. The problem of i obal nnce

of resources 1-1as increasingly serious and had aggravated further

even in the period s ince our membership.

The Prime Ninister said that in his viCi'i the CAP \Wuld collapse under

its o~m weight. The present structures contai ned too many

absurdities. It would be useful that we sl1ould s tudy this together.

Both countries had a strong interest in increasing the allocation

of Community resources for regiona l sup,ort. The present i mbalance

in the Community budget, ~Qth such a large share going to

agriculture, was not necessarily in eit~er ot our interests even

alloldng for the importance of agriculture in our own econooy.

Both countries had an interest in a Community aericultural structure

~mich was heal thy. In his vicYT, Ccnnunity agri~ultural policy

should move more in the direction of support me~~anisms. The CAP

was a target of increas ing criticjsm from third countries. He

felt that the French would be very difficult about enlareement

I ...

1G

• Tile .'J'noiG()~~b. rw:i.cl thnt he too 1'~oulcl be firmly op Joscd to an"'

'fir::;t or ~rcOl':.d rr:c!!lbcr::;hip tier. lie recognised tho politic: 11

de[;J'l.'3.biliL;,;r of.' cnlnreCDcnt but the ('conomic problemc involrod

lTould have to be resob ... ecl. 'le r.c[. .rdc d iter; of parartoun t

lllportancc th.1. t the ef] s en hal s true turcs of the CAl' 811 ould r(;l:t:lin

intact.

The Hinister r;a:Ld that he had arr.nnccd to meet Hi th Dr Ouen 011

2.,,-~ G:th J oycmbor to discuss this and other matters . \'le uere not

setting precondi tiOD::' for the ap111icants so much as for the

Community itnclf. The COEnunity must face and res olve the / IJ.r"\. I c'::.'r

institutional/probleIl1G posed by enlareement and thi.s should be

an inteeral part of the l1hole exercise. The problem of icbalnnce

of resources Has increasingly serious and had aggravated further

even in the period since our membership.

The Prime Ninider said that in his ViClf the CAP \'1ould collapse under

its o\'m \'leight. The present structures cont.:dned too many

absurdities. It would be useful that we should study this together.

Both countries had a strong interest in increasing the allocation

of Community resources for regional sup,ort. The present imbalance

in the Community budget, \'Qth such a large share going to

agriculture, was not necessarily in eit~er o~ our interests even

alloldng for the importance of agriculture in our own economy.

Both countries had an interest in a Co~unity aericultural structure

"fiich was heal thy. In his Vieyl, Community agriqul tural policy

should move more in the directi.on of support mechanisms. The CAP

was a target of increasing critidsm from third countrie3. He

felt that the French would be very difficult about enlarBement

/ ... --------,----~~---~,--------.. --------

• \h. v.J~ 0v -s:..b :1 •:,_ ~~'-~'[ LN-"v~tL~ ~~~~.: 1 ,

~~~--\}..__~ \jJ L\ ... ~ '~.;~ ~ t)vJ 'v'-.LvJ ~tyJ)v\Jv"'-l~

unlesn U1c prohl<.'L1!J of mcdi tcr:rnnc.:m ag:r:icul turc 1:Cl:c sol vcd to their

satisfaction. The JUnifd:cr coL~mcnted that co fnr n:::: the dc,··clopi."lg

cotmt:;:-ics \Jere conc~r.ned their problems 1/Crc J.css co:1cerned Hi th the

CAP t hnn ui th Hider issues of market preference. t).;'v\ tAM L~~

1~, \)~ ~\)\_'tL).j~ ''w cJ__I\_.N\}.U>Jl ~& rA ·: Direct }~J cct:ions

The Prj me 1-:inistcr outlined the British situation and confirmed

tha t l ecislation \·iould be introducP.d i n the next session . I f

the House accepted PJ.?., direct e> l cc t ions uould b e possibl e for

Britain i n 1978. Other~'lise the f i r st- past- the- post s ystem rTould

apply and it would not be poss ible for Britain to have direct

elections before 1979. The pos ition should be clear by

the end of January. His o\m gues s vras t ha t PR uould be r e j ec ted.

He vrould vote for it vTi thout any enthusiat:m but he vrould not I

regard it as particularly serious if direct elections had to be

postponed for a yea r and he 'tras not convinced tha t s ome other

Member State w·ould have · much regret about this either. The

J.Iinister stressed the vital importance of direct elections for the

strengthering of European cohes ion at the popular and other

levels. Any indefinite deferment of the introduction of direct

elections nould be obviously dangerous.

'Ihe Taoise:1ch explained the present posiUon so far as Ireland's

legislation requirements for direct elections 'l'rere concerned.

The Constituency Boundary Commission 'i'rould report by mid-October

and legislation could go through the Dail by the end of the year.

/ ...

.·-·- ·-·---;~ "·..r-T--....-. J

. . ~ , n

i 1~ vJ~ .'~~:~ .~ ~ .. !~ ... ·")'-l'l Lf"'-"\iVu...tL~ !/-~.: ( ,

~,)--~ LtJ o'-~ \_"-~~ ~ lJw 'V,-S_A./J O""-lyl~V'\f\...(:?

• unlesD the prohl cL1!J of LlCditcrranca.n £'.{;rieu l tu.ro i !Ci:e Dolved to their

satis f action . The Bin] ~t£ co:: :::Jcntcd tha t GO f nr Hr; t he dc\'·cl opi.'1g

count:Lics uere c onc~r.ned t heir probl ems ,;"ero J.CSG c O:lcerned with the

CAP than ui t h ui der i ssues of !'larke t preference. t);\t\.. UM L~~ I~ \ \J~ I~\l\..~~ "CM ~~l.9J0l ~~ cA ':

.Dircct EJ ecti ons

The Prjr'1o r·lini stcr outlin ed the British si tua tion and confi rmed

that leGislation "iOuld be introducp.d in the next ses sion . If

the House accepted PR, direct E'lections i'lOuld be possible for

Britain in 1978. Otheri"lise the first-past-the-po3t s ystem "lould

apply and it would not be possible for B=itain to have direct

elections before 1979. The position should be clear by

the end of January. His mm guess "las that PR "[ould be rej ected.

He )[ould vote for it l"Ti thout any enthusiatJm but he "Tould not ,

regard it as particularly serious if direct elections had to be

postponed for a year and he was not convinced that some other

}Iember state w'ould have ' much regret about this either. The

Ninister stressed the vital importance of direct elections for the

strengther~ng of European cohesion at the popular and other

levels. Any indefinite deferment of the introduction of direct

elections uould be obviously dangerous.

llie Taoise3.ch explained the present posi tj.on so far as Ireland ts

legislation requirements for direct elections 'l'Tere concerned.

'ilie Cons ti tuency Boundary Commission ,"[ould report by mid-October

and legislation could go through the Dail by the end of the year.

I ...

- -.---;; ~ ~-,....--..,-~ - ---- - J - (

l I

• 18

Eu.,.one:•n Pn.rJ~:n.:c:.1 t J .. llmmnccn --·-------~·-----------

Thor0 Hos a brief cxchnngc on this .

i t \,·a/J important for Bri taint to avoid cl.omestic con trovcrsy,

that allmrances ::::hould not be cxtravae-ant. He thou.cht that

there \~ould bo a real p:;::oblcm in achieving a reasonable turnout

for Eu:-openn elections . The;{ uould have l iked to have held these

simultaneous~y uith a general el ec tion but this uan not of c ourse

possible eivcn thnt tr~ direct elections should take pl a ce on the

s ame date throuahout the Cor:lllluni ty . The Taoisea.ch said that \ ·Te

also Hhnred the Briti sh concc:::-n tha t alloiiances should not be s et

at an excess i ve l evel.

Bude;e t 11!X.._C0!1tributions

6 tlv ~~~~~·,'~7 V\ r..AN ~~_Q~')

f ~~AN'..t_~~ •

The Pr i me Ninidcr said that the Co:nmission 's pos ition on this v1as

one ·Hhich Britain fully shared and the Ta oiseach confirmed that we

were also in agre en en t vTi th it •

'llie Prime Hinis t er said that he hoped t !'.at this problem v1ould be

seen in terms of the broad European intP.rest. Energy pressures

would be great for all Hember States particularly from the mid-80's

on. Britain had novr substantial oil resources and large coal

reserves but the initiative in the energy field must not be left to

the Russians and the Americans and it was vitally· important for the

Community as a vrhole that the decision on JET should no longer be

delayed. There vras no doubt that the team at Culham v1ould break

/ ... -·--- ·-· --:;:~.. .. _ . ......,..---.---------

--..--··----·----------~---.-..---··---~~

18

• EU"'-Ol)':::1.n P:l liar'C'l '; AJ.lom!ncoG --------------_ .. -_ .. -Thor0 HUS a br ief cxchonge on this .

it \\'8.8 important for Britain, to avoid clomesJdc cO::1troversy,

that allouanc0s chould not be extravaeant. He thou.ch t that

thore '~ould be a real p:roblcm ill achieving u reanonable turnout

f or European elnci:ions . They uould have l iked to have held the~e

simul tuneous,ly Hi th a general election but this 1-1a:J not of course

possible eiven thut tlH) direct elections should take place on the

same date throuGhout the COllDlunity . The Taoisee.ch said that 1"1e

als o shared the British concern that a llO lances shoul d not be s et

Budeeta:ry CO!lhibutions

'ilie Prime Hin:istcr said t ha t the Co:nmi ssiont s pos i tion on this Was

one "1hich Bri -'vain fully shared and the Ta ois each confirmed that we

"TOre als o in agreencnt "'ith it.

'ilie !Time !,li nister s aid that he hoped t r.a t this problem \-Tould be

seen in terms of the broad European intp.rest. Energy pressures

would be grea t for all l1ember states pnrticularly from the mid-80 ts

on. Bri tain ha d no'" SUbstantia l oil resources and large coal

reserves but the initiative in the energy field must not be left to

the Russians and the Americans and it was vitally' important for the

Community as a ,,~ole that the decis ion on JET should no longer be

delayed. 'iliere "Tas no doubt that the team at Culham ",ould break

I .. ·

- -.-----;~ . ..... -T- ..... --_.----- --------.- ...--

-~.

19

up unlo~:.: ~: a quicl: dc.:cision uas reached. '.i'hc French Prc:::i.clc11t lw <l

told him pr ivatcJy that he did not ae;r:oc to the si tine of Jl~T :i.n

the li'RGo It i·:u.~; poss ible that, as a Hay out, the French micJ1t

seek to sh0lvc the project al toecthor but he had made it vcr:l clear

to the French President that thi c liould be a great zn.istake . He had

t a l ked recently uith Schmidt and felt he detected some softening

in the Gorillnn position . He planned to see Schmidt in Germany on

18th October • The Germans might find i t eas i er t o back d Oim i f . t h ey coul d cl early be shotm to be in a minor ity. He a l s o t h o·ught

that many of the Hcober States vere coming round to tho viet·r tha t

Culham rras the right s ite.

The Taoi~en c.h said t hat our position l·las to favour the site best

sui ted on technical a nd other grounds. The ~1ini stcr said tha t t·IC

'\'ranted to see a consensus on the issue. vle l'Tould tend to favour

Culham but some member states, including perhaps the Netherlands,

might find some difficulty in supporting Culham if there rrere not

to be an ansvrering positive "Eu:ropean" response from Britain e . g .

on direct elections. The Prime l·linis ter replied that he sai'T this

connection more in the reverse sense and that a failu:re to agree on

Culham l·TOuld be likely to harden British feelings against Europe .

The Taoisea ch said if l'Te had to make a straight choice at the end

of the day betueen the British and German sites l<Te would support

Culham .

/ ...

----· - --~-·-- -· · -· - - ,_ .. .. . - -- --- - ·- ·--· ... ------ ·-----.. ~· · .. -..-----

~.

19

up un1eDs 11 quicJ: ducis ion \TaG r El3.chcd.

told him r-rivately that he did not aGree to the 8i tin~ of JJ~T in

the PRG o It '-Tul'; poss ible th.'lt~ as a Hay out, the French mieJlt

seek to sh01ve the project al totcther but he had mnde i t vcr~{ clear

to thE: French President tha. t this l.'ould be a great Il istalce . He had

t a Dccd recontly ui th $c:hmidt and felt he detected some 80ftcning

in t he GerJllDn position . He planned to see S(;hmidt in Germany on

18th October . T'nc Germans might find it easier t o back dmm i f

t h ey coul d clearly be shO\m to be in a minor ity. Ho a l s o t hought

that many of the Heober s tates pore coming round to thc vie,-, t hat

Culham "TaS t he right s ite.

The Ta oisench s a id t hat our position "'as to favour t h e site best

suited on technica l a nd other grounds. The ~linister said tha t '-/0

"1anted to sce a consensus on the issue . \,le ",ou1d tend to favour

Culham but some member states, including perhaps the Netherlands,

might find some difficulty in supporting Culham if there "Tere not

to be an ans'tTering positive "European" response from Britain e . g .

on direct elections. The Prime Hinister replied that he sa\-[ this

connection more in the reverse sense and that a failure to agree on

Culham '-Tould be likely to harden British feelings against Europe .

The Taoise3.ch said if "Te had to make a straight choice at the end

of the day betl-,reen the British and German sites "Te would support

Culham.

I . . ·

- - - - . - . -.-- - - - - -" " -~ --- -.---..... ~- .-._ ._ --_._ ------ ---- --

,

• 20

Ccntincnt:tl Shelf - ·----The Taoi~ c~uch said that 11e 1rerc ready for arbitration and the

British aide appeared to accept the principle. Ue '·rould like

early progress on th:i s as lTC ;vere anxious for the posi ticn to

be clarified in connection 1-1i th our allocation of expl oration

licences . Hr Judd said that the \forking Party appeared to have

got bogged dmm but he agreed that the British \·rould noH also

like to sec rapid progress made.

CoU1J1Juni oue

Discussion on the draft communique at the conclusion of the meeting

centred on a paragraph including a reference to national aspirations .

ilie Prime f.l:ini:::ter proposed a "bridging sentence" at the beginning

of the paragraph referring to support by both Governments for a long-

term solution acceptable to both communities (Cubbon sugeested "both

parts of the community") in Northern Ireland. The British side was

not ready, hm.;ever, to add that such a solution should also be

acceptable to the Irish people/both Governments. Without agreement

on the bridging sentence the British ;·rere unable to accept the

paragraph as a whole and it was dropped.

The Prime Hinister also queried a reference in the draft to "satisfaction

at security cooperation", suggesting to Mr l·iason that the reference, if

not qualified, 'l'i'Ould expose him to criticism in the House. He

proposed that the wording be amended to "satisfaction at the closeness

I ...

f

• 20

The .'I'aoi;;each said that \'le ,rere ready for arbitration and the

Bri tish Gide appeared to accept the principle. Vie ''1O'u.ld ljke

early proBress on this as lTe w"ere anxious for the posi tien to

be clarified in connection v;i th our allocation of explora.ti on

licences . I1r .rudd said that the \-lorking Party appeared to have

got bogged d010ffi but he agreed t hat the Brit ish \'iOul d nOH also

like to Gce rapid progress made.

COlJlJ!luniQue

Discussion on the draft communique at the conclusion of the meeting

centred on a paragraph including a reference to national aspira tions.

ilie Prime H:i niGter proposed a "bridging sentence" at the beginning

of the paragraph referring to support by both Governments for a long­

term solution acceptable to both communities (Cubbon sugeested "both

parts of the community") in Northern Ireland. The British side '..ras

not ready , hOl'lever, to add that such a solution should also be

acceptable to the Irish people/both Governments . Without agreement

on the bridging sentence the British "Tere unable to accept the

paragraph as a whole and it was dropped .

The Prime Hinis ter also queried a reference in the draft to "satisfactior..

at security cooperation" , suggesting to l1r r.iason that the reference, if

not qualified, would expose him to criticism in the House . He

proposed that the wording be amended to "satisfaction at the closeness

/ ...

21

of sccu:rit;> coopcro.tion 11• 'l.i1c 'J'a.o:i.sco. ch pointed. O'..lt that the

referonce:1 1·:-.i. thout q_uoJ.ification had. bc .:::n included i 1i 1n: ovio1~

communiques. The Prt_mc i·Li.n:i}~ ·1~e1: maint .. d.i:1ing rc3e:.cv::.t t:.i.ono on

-this point, the Tao:i.f>CHcQ. proposed the ":ordinc; 11sai:isfuction , , J: ~ ... r.;~~

at the degree of cooperation!1 \·;hich Has agreed . /l

21

• of s ccuri t:lT C oopcru ti on 11 • 'El1C ~1?o:i.n(,[' .r:h pointed. 0'..1"\; that the

referOnC(;1 ,.;-1 thout quulification had. bC .. n inclm cd i.i l»)';e\rieJ1lD

co:nmuniquc:::;. The Prime Bin:i l~i:cr J::3.int. inincr re38:cvatiolln on

this point, the Tn.oinc[1cQ. p:coposed the \·:ordil1{; "satit,factioll ,f; .'L:·t~

at the degree of cooperation!l lihieh ,·:-as agreed . Il