NARRATIVE FAMILY THERAPY - Psychotherapy.net: Online ... · 3 Psychotherapy.net Instructor’s Manual for NARRATIVE FAMILY THERAPY WITH STEPHEN MADIGAN, PHD Table of Contents Tips

Instructor’s Manualfor

NARRATIVE FAMILY THERAPY

with

STEPHEN MADIGAN, PHD

Manual byAli Miller, MFT and Stephen Madigan, PhD

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NARRATIVE FAMILY THERAPY WITH STEPHEN MADIGAN, PHD

The Instructor’s Manual accompanies the DVD Narrative Family Therapy, with Stephen Madigan, PhD (Institutional/Instructor’s Version). Video available at www.psychotherapy.net.

Copyright © 2011, Psychotherapy.net, LLC. All rights reserved.

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Teaching and Training: Instructors, training directors and facilitators using the Instructor’s Manual for the DVD Narrative Family Therapy, with Stephen Madigan, PhD may reproduce parts of this manual in paper form for teaching and training purposes only. Otherwise, the text of this publication may not be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means—electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise—without the prior written permission of the publisher, Psychotherapy.net. The DVD Narrative Family Therapy, with Stephen Madigan, PhD (Institutional/Instructor’s Version) is licensed for group training and teaching purposes. Broadcasting or transmission of this video via satellite, Internet, video conferencing, streaming, distance learning courses or other means is prohibited without the prior written permission of the publisher.

Miller, Ali, MFT and Madigan, Stephen, PhD Instructor’s Manual for Narrative Family Therapy, with Stephen Madigan, PhD

Cover design by Julie Giles

Order Information and Continuing Education Credits:For information on ordering and obtaining continuing education credits for this and other psychotherapy training videos, please visit us at www.psychotherapy.net or call 800-577-4762.

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Instructor’s Manual for


Table of ContentsTips for Making the Best Use of the DVD 4

Madigan on Narrative Family Therapy 6

Re-authoring Conversations 9

Reaction Paper Guide for Classrooms and Training 14

Related Websites, Videos and Further Readings 15

Discussion Questions 17

Role-Plays 21

Session Transcript with Commentary 23

Video Credits 50

Earn Continuing Education Credits for Watching Videos 51

About the Contributors 52

More Psychotherapy.net Videos 54

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Tips for Making the Best Use of the DVD1. USE THE TRANSCRIPTSMake notes in the video Transcript for future reference; the next time you show the video you will have them available. Highlight or notate key moments in the video to better facilitate discussion during and after the video. Take advantage of the commentary throughout the transcript.

2. FACILITATE DISCUSSION Pause the video at different points to elicit viewers’ observations and reactions to the concepts presented. The Discussion Questions section provides ideas about key points that can stimulate rich discussions and learning.

3.ENCOURAGE SHARING OF OPINIONSEncourage viewers to voice their opinions; no therapy is perfect! What are viewers’ impressions of what works and does not work in the sessions? We learn as much from our mistakes as our successes; it is crucial for students and therapists to develop the ability to effectively critique this work as well as their own.

4. CONDUCT A ROLE-PLAYThe Role-Plays section guides you through exercises you can assign to your students in the classroom or training session.

5. SUGGEST READINGS TO ENRICH VIDEO MATERIALAssign readings from Related Websites, Videos and Further Reading prior to or after viewing.

6. ASSIGN A REACTION PAPERSee suggestions in the Reaction Paper section.

7. WATCH THE FAMILY THERAPY WITH THE EXPERTS SERIESThis video is one in a series portraying leading theories of psychotherapy and their application in work with families. Each video presents a master family therapist working with a real family who have real problems. By showing several of the videos in this Family Therapy with the Experts series, you can expose viewers to a variety of styles and approaches, allowing them an opportunity to see what fits best for them.

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PERSPECTIVE ON VIDEOS AND THE PERSONALITY OF THE THERAPIST

Psychotherapy portrayed in videos is less off-the-cuff than therapy in practice. Therapists may feel put on the spot to offer a good demonstration, and clients can be self-conscious in front of a camera. Therapists often move more quickly than they would in everyday practice to demonstrate a particular technique. Despite these factors, therapists and clients on video can engage in a realistic session that conveys a wealth of information not contained in books or therapy transcripts: body language, tone of voice, facial expression, rhythm of the interaction, quality of the alliance—all aspects of the therapeutic relationship that are unique to an interpersonal encounter.

Psychotherapy is an intensely private matter. Unlike the training in other professions, students and practitioners rarely have an opportunity to see their mentors at work. But watching therapy on video is the next best thing.

One more note: The personal style of therapists is often as important as their techniques and theories. Therapists are usually drawn to approaches that mesh well with their own personality. Thus, while we can certainly pick up ideas from master therapists, students and trainees must make the best use of relevant theory, technique and research that fits their own personal style and the needs of their clients.

PRIVACY AND CONFIDENTIALITY

Because this video contains actual therapy sessions, please take care to protect the privacy and confidentiality of the clients who have courageously shared their personal life with us.

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Madigan on Narrative Family TherapyThe real political task in a society such as ours is to criticize the workings of institutions that appear to be both neutral and independent, to criticize

and attack them in such a manner that the political violence that has always exercised itself obscurely through them will be unmasked, so that one can fight

against them.— Michel Foucault

Narrative therapy practice is premised on the notion that people organize their lives through stories (thus the use of the narrative or text metaphor). When we experience a client coming to talk with us, they usually relate a telling of their lives through stories. They tell their stories by linking together their understanding of the problem, relationship, illness etc., through a sequencing of life events and ideas through time. People often speak about what brought them into therapy, what they believe the history of their situation is, and who or what is responsible. At the time when someone decides to come to therapy, there is usually one prevailing theory told as to what they are in therapy for, and this theory is quite often thought to be quite limiting of their descriptions of themselves and situation.

As the originators of Narrative Therapy, Michael White and David Epston thought therapists were inevitably engaged in a political activity in the sense that they must continually challenge the techniques that subjugate persons within a dominant ideology. Narrative therapists were asked to reflect (and assume) they were producing therapy in domains of power and knowledge and operating within systems of social control.

The therapeutic story of Ollie and his Mother outlines how problems are often inscribed onto individuals through generalized taken-for-granted ideas — in this case, generalizing by the school, parents, judges, the field of psychology, and the probation system regarding the reputation and character of Ollie. This kind of common psychological “branding” action took Ollie and his family to a powerfully punishing place, where a more relational and contextual rendering of ideas regarding how people are constructed may have spared this family pain. How this 12-year-old African-American boy came to be described, disciplined and punished had a strong relationship to our communities’ dominant

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ideas about people - in this case, an African-American youth. These ideas about Ollie were constructed and shaped by dominant ideas, taken-for-granted notions, and disciplinary measures, and then they were shoved upon his identity/body.

Narrative therapy practice, as demonstrated in this session, is based on the idea that people make meaning in the world about who they are - and who they are in relation to others - through a dialogic relationship that is considered to be shaped by the prevailing cultural group. In order to offer a more colorful snapshot of their lives, client stories introduce a range of characters and “back stories” – in just the same way any good author might. While people live and construct stories about themselves, these stories also live and construct people.

The narrative therapist holds a firm belief that the person arriving into therapy is not solely responsible for creating the problem-centered deficit-identity conclusion that is often related to us. For example, the mother of a child viewed by the pre-school as not quite “fitting in” (what might be considered “proper” preschool behavior) may blame themselves as unfit (following in step with a predominance for mother-blaming ideas in our culture). Young girls struggling with body-perfection feel they have personally failed; a heterosexual corporate employee not able to spend more time with their children feels socially torn and inadequate; a gay or bi-curious high school student is entered into a fearful secrecy and feels a sense of individual shame. The ensuing story told by these persons in therapy is often one that adheres to specific “individual responsibility” for ‘’their” problem, and a desperate desire to be “fixed.” This perplexing humanist notion of individual responsibility for the daily problems we collectively create, experience and reproduce appears cut-off from the relational context of the prevailing culture.

The belief that one does not measure up to cultural expectations can quite easily discount the person’s alternative skills, competencies, beliefs, values, commitments and abilities they have achieved (as a means of living/surviving within the parameters of dominant norms). It is within the process of re-authoring the larger multi-storied cultural context of personhood that therapist and client begin to guide their

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discussions away from individualized problem stories, and towards richer and thicker narratives (emerging from underneath the initial problem-based disparate descriptions of experience).

Narrative therapy interviewing, as demonstrated with Ollie and his mother in this session, is based on the person’s storied accounts regarding their experiences and actions in life. Narrative therapists are not concerned with categories of behavior. Instead they turn their attention towards action and interaction of experience, response and reflection of the client. Within the practice of narrative therapy, problems are viewed as relational, contextual, interpretive and situated within dominant discourse, expression, response and cultural norms. This interplay presents the backdrop to the narrative maxim – the person is the person and the problem is the problem – not separate, but culturally, discursively and relationally interwoven.

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Re-authoring Conversations BY STEPHEN MADIGAN, PHD

Re-authoring conversations are a key feature in the practice of narrative therapy. Re-authoring conversations invite clients to help flesh out some of the more neglected areas and events of their lives (often covered over by the problem story being told). These may include: achievements under duress, survival skills growing up, and qualities of themselves left out of their story such as generosity, ethical stances and kindness etc. These are very often stories that could not have been predicted through a telling of the dominant problem story being told. These untold stories can be sadly neglected in the telling of the problem story, by both the client and the professionals involved with the client’s story.

Neglected events in the client’s life are viewed as exceptions or unique outcomes that are utilized as a beginning point for re-authoring conversations and the development of alternative story lines. Often these conversations evoke a longer-standing curiosity and appreciation about the stories clients find themselves telling. The telling of these alternative and often preferred recollections of their lives and relationships shapes newly-formed stories that can be further broadened and enriched.

People’s stories of life and of personal identity can be considered to compose landscapes of the mind that are constituted through landscapes of action and landscapes of identity. It is through narrative therapy questions that these alternative landscapes of the mind can be richly described and re-authored. Combining the different landscapes, narrative therapy acts to:

1. Question how the “known” and remembered problem identity of a person has been influenced, manufactured and maintained over time.

2. Question what aspects of the social order have assisted in the ongoing maintenance of this remembered problem self.

3. Locate those cultural apparatuses keeping this remembered problem self-restrained from remembering alternative accounts and experiences of lived experience.

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4. Locate alternative sites of resistance through questioning how the person can begin to re-remember subordinate stories of identity living outside the cultural, professional and problem’s version of them.

5. Influence how discursive space can afford room for possibilities and different discursive practices to emerge, by resisting and standing up for the performance of this re-remembered and preferred self.

6. Explore who else in the person’s life might be engaged to offer accounts of re-remembrance and provide the person safety within the membership of a community of concern.

The following is a selection of some of the categories of questions a Narrative Therapist may ask:

Mapping the influence of the problem in the person/family’s life and relationshipsThrough mapping the influence of how people may be problem supporting, people can begin to see themselves as authors, or at least co-authors, of their own stories. They can then move toward a greater sense of agency in their lives as a primary author of the story to be told and lived through. Some questions to ask a client dealing with worry, for example, include:

•Aretherewaysinwhichyouhaveunknowinglygivenworrytheupperhandinyourlife?

•Havetherebeenpeopleorsituationsinyourlifethathavehelpedyoukeepworrycentraltoyourlife?

Unique outcome questionsUnique outcome questions invite people to notice actions and intentions that contradict the dominant problem story. Some examples of unique outcome questions are:

•Givenover-responsibility’sencouragementofworry,havetherebeenanytimeswhenyouhavebeenabletorebelagainstitandsatisfysomeotherofyourdesires?Didthisbringyoudespairorpleasure?Why?

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•Havetherebeentimeswhenyouhavethought--evenforamoment--thatyoumightstepoutofworry’sprison?Whatdidthislandscapefreeofworrylooklike?

•Iwaswonderingifyouhadtogiveworrytheslipinordertocometothesessionheretoday?

Unique account questionsUnique account questions invite people to make sense of exceptions/alternatives to the dominant story of the problem being told (e.g. “I always worry”). These exceptions may not be registered as significant or interesting or different; however, once uttered and uncovered they are held alongside the problem story as part of an emerging and coherent alternative narrative. Some examples of unique account questions include:

•Howwereyouabletogetyourselftoschoolandtherebydefyworry’swanttokeepyoutoitselfathomealone?

•Giveneverythingthatworryhasgotgoingforit,howdidyouobjectagainstitspushingyouaround?

•Howmightyoustanduptoworry’spressuretogetyouworriedagain,torefuseitsrequirementsofyou?

Unique Re-description QuestionsUnique re-description questions invite people to develop meaning from the unique accounts they have identified as they re-describe themselves, others, and their relationships. Some examples of unique re-description questions are:

•Whatdoesthistellyouaboutyourselfthatyouotherwisewouldnothaveknown?

•Byaffordingyourselfsomeenjoyment,doyouthinkinanywaythatyouarebecomingamoreenjoyableperson?

•Ofallthepeopleinyourlifewhomightconfirmthisnewlydevelopingpictureofyourselfasworryingless,whomighthavenoticedthisfirst?

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Unique Possibility QuestionsUnique possibility questions are viewed as next step questions. These questions invite people to speculate about the personal and relational futures that derive from their unique accounts and unique re-descriptions of themselves in relation to the problem. For example:

•Wheredoyouthinkyouwillgonextnowthatyouhaveembarkeduponhavingalittlefunandtakingacoupleoflittlerisksinyourlife?

•Isthisadirectionyouseeyourselftakinginthedays/weeks/yearstocome?

•Doyouthinkitislikelythatthismightreviveyourflaggingrelationship,restoreyourfriendships,orrenewyourvitality?

Preference QuestionsPreference questions are asked all throughout the interview. It is important to intersperse many of the above questions with preference questions so as to allow persons to evaluate their responses. This should influence the therapist’s further questions and check against the therapist’s preferences overtaking the clients’ preferences. For instance:

•Isthisyourpreferenceforthebestwayforyoutoliveornot?Why?

•Doyouseeitasagoodorabadthingforyou?

•Doyouconsiderthistoyouradvantageandtothedisadvantageoftheproblemortotheproblem’sadvantageandtoyourdisadvantage?

Once the therapist begins to get a grasp of the format and the conceptual frame for developing temporal questions (past, present or future), unique account questions, unique re-description questions etc. they become a bit more easy to develop and will eventually seem “ordinary” to the interviewer and the context.

The structure of the narrative interview is built through questions that encourage people to fill in the gaps of the alternative story (untold through a repeating of the problem-saturated story). The discursive structure assists people to account for their lived experience, exercise

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imagination and circulate the remembered stories as meaning-making resources.

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Reaction Paper for Classes and TrainingVideo: Narrative Family Therapy with Stephen Madigan, PhD• Assignment: Complete this reaction paper and return it by the

date noted by the facilitator.• SuggestionsforViewers: Take notes on these questions while

viewing the video and complete the reaction paper afterwards. Respond to each question below.

• LengthandStyle: 2-4 pages double-spaced. Be brief and concise. Do NOT provide a full synopsis of the video. This is meant to be a brief reaction paper that you write soon after watching the video—we want your ideas and reactions.

What to Write: Respond to the following questions in your reaction paper:1. Key points: What important points did you learn about Madigan’s

approach to Narrative Family Therapy? What stands out to you about how Madigan works?

2. What I found most helpful: As a therapist, what was most beneficial to you about the model presented? What tools or perspectives did you find helpful and might you use in your own work? What challenged you to think about something in a new way?

3. What does not make sense: What principles/techniques/interventions did not make sense to you? Did anything push your buttons or bring about a sense of resistance in you, or just not fit with your own style of working?

4. HowIwoulddoitdifferently: What might you have done differently from Madigan in the session in the video? Be specific about what different approaches, interventions and techniques you might have applied.

5. Other questions/reactions: What questions or reactions did you have as you viewed the therapy session with Madigan? Other comments, thoughts or feelings?

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Related Websites, Videos and Further ReadingWEB RESOURCESStephen Madigan: Yaletown Family Therapy www.stephenmadigan.caThe Vancouver School for Narrative Therapy www.therapeuticconversations.comDulwich Centre: A gateway to narrative therapy and community work www.dulwichcentre.com.auThe Dulwich Centre Narrative Therapy Library and Bookshop www.narrativetherapylibrary.comNarrative Therapy Centre of Toronto www.narrativetherapycentre.comResources on Narrative Therapy, website of David Epston, Jennifer Freeman, and Dean Lobovits www.narrativeapproaches.com

RELATED VIDEOS AVAILABLE AT WWW.PSYCHOTHERAPY.NET Narrative Therapy with Children, with Stephen MadiganExploring Narradrama, with Pamela DunneAdolescent Family Therapy, with Janet Sasson EdgettePsychological Residual of Slavery, with Kenneth Hardy

RECOMMENDED READINGSEpston, D., Freeman. J., & Lobovits, D. (1997). Playful approaches to serious problems: Narrative therapy with children and their families. New York: W.W. Norton & Co.

Madigan, S. (2011). Narrative therapy: Theory and practice (Theories of

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psychotherapy series). New York: American Psychological Association Press.

Madigan, S. (2009). Therapy as community connections. In, Creative breakthroughs in therapy: Tales of transformation and astonishment, Kottler, J & Carlson, J. (Eds.), pp. 65-80. New York: Wiley.

Madigan, S. (1997) Re-remembering lost identities. In, Narrative therapy with children and adolescents, D. Nylund and C. Smith (Eds.), Chapter 13. New York, London: Guilford Press.

White, M. (2011). Narrative practice: Continuing the conversations. New York: W.W. Norton & Co.

White, M. (2007). Maps of narrative practice. New York: W.W. Norton & Co.

White, M. (1995). Re-authoring lives: Interviews and essays. Adelaide, Australia: Dulwich Centre Publications.

White, M. & Epston, D. (1990). Narrative means to therapeutic ends. New York: W.W. Norton & Co.

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Discussion QuestionsProfessors, training directors and facilitators may use some or all of these discussion questions, depending on what aspects of the video are most relevant to the audience.

INTRODUCTION 1. Political: What do you think of the idea of a therapy model being

as political as Narrative Therapy is? What are your thoughts and feelings on the therapist bringing socio-political issues—such as racism, heterosexism, sexism, and classism—into the therapy room? Do you invite your clients to look at the way the dominant culture impacts their identities? If so, how? Have you explored how your own identity has been shaped by the dominant culture in your own therapy or personal growth work? What have you discovered?

2. Research: How did you react when Madigan stated that very little research has been done on Narrative Therapy and that Narrative therapists are not very interested in quantitative research? How important do you think it is for therapy models to be researched? Does the lack of research impact your opinions on the efficacy of this model? Why or why not?

3. Taking notes: What did you think of how Madigan took notes during the session? Do you like his technique of splitting the page down the middle and writing the problem stories on the left and the unique outcomes on the right? Why or why not? What do you think of how Madigan writes his clients a recap of what they said in the session? Do you tend to take notes in your sessions? What kind of notes do you take and why? How do your clients respond to this?

FAMILY THERAPY SESSION4. Starting the session: Madigan stated that he usually begins his

sessions in the same way he began this session, which is by asking, “Why it is that you have come to see someone like me in counseling at this particular time?” What did you think of this way

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of starting the session? Would you have been more specific about whom you were addressing the question to or do you like how Madigan allowed either Ollie or Mrs. Poindexter to respond first? How do you tend to begin family therapy sessions?

5. Too gullible? What did you think of how Madigan believed Mrs. Poindexter and Ollie when they said that Ollie wasn’t trying to hurt his friend when he hit him with his belt? Did you find yourself also believing them or were you more skeptical? Did you have any concerns that Madigan was being too gullible? How have you handled situations with clients when they have been accused of something and they tell you they are innocent?

6. Addressing racism: What did you think of how Madigan asked Mrs. Poindexter, “Do you have any ideas why it is that you might have been treated in this way?” and then, “Do you have a sense as to why the school district here is structured this way and the one you used to be in is not?”? Do you agree with Madigan that as a white therapist with all the power, he should have addressed the issue of race and racism more directly? Why or why not? What reactions did you have as Madigan and Mrs. Poindexter talked about the role of race in Ollie’s getting in trouble? Did you have any concerns that Madigan focused too much on race and not enough on Ollie’s behavior? What are some ways you address issues of race and racism in your work with clients?

7. Trouble: What did you think of how Madigan externalized “trouble” by saying things like, “trouble was getting in the way of your life,” and, “so already trouble has taken the TV watching and the Sega channel away from him?” How do you think this technique helped Ollie and Mrs. Poindexter? Is this technique something you have used with clients before? Do you find it effective?

8. Questions: What were your reactions to Madigan’s line of questioning? For instance, he asked Ollie some questions that one could argue had obvious answers, such as “How come it would be a bad thing if you were to get suspended from school?” and, “Why would you want to have a good living?” What did you like and/or

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dislike about the interview quality of the session?9. Therapeutic alliance: What did you think of Madigan’s therapeutic

alliance with Ollie? What did you like or dislike about how he related with Ollie? How about his alliance with Mrs. Poindexter? Was there anything Madigan said or did that you think particularly added to or detracted from his ability to connect with her? How might you have related to Ollie and/or Mrs. Poindexter differently?

10. Taking action: Towards the end of the session Madigan tried to get Ollie and his mother to come up with things they can do to get the word out about Ollie’s “good boy reputation” and Mrs. Poindexter responded with comments such as, “I think the district needs to change their attitude.” How did you react to this segment of the session? Is there anything you would have suggested to Ollie and/or Mrs. Poindexter that might have helped them feel more empowered in this situation? What did you think of Madigan’s idea of writing a letter on behalf of Ollie to his principal? Can you think of a time when you have intervened outside of the therapy session on behalf of one of your clients? If so, how did you feel about doing so, and did it have any noticeable effect on the therapeutic alliance?

DISCUSSION11. Court-ordered: Have you worked with any clients who were court-

ordered? If so, what sorts of challenges did you face in negotiating the needs and expectations of the court and the needs of the client?

12. Pathologizing language: Carlson brought up how the dominant culture would label Ollie’s behavior as antisocial, and Madigan talked about how he doesn’t like to use pathologizing language or the DSM. What were your reactions to this? What are your thoughts on diagnosing people with labels from the DSM? Would you have diagnosed Ollie with anything? Why or why not?

13. Privilege: What were your reactions to Madigan’s discussion about white privilege and the conversations he has with consultants about the way his own privilege impacts his work with clients? Have you explored how your race, class, gender, or sexual

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orientation may offer you privileges that others—including your clients--may not have? How do you think privilege might play a role in your work as a therapist?

14. The model: What are your overall thoughts about Madigan’s approach to therapy? What aspects of Narrative Therapy can you see yourself incorporating into your work? Are there some components of this approach that seem incompatible with how you work? What in particular do you tend to do differently from Madigan?

15. Personal Reaction: How would you feel about having Madigan as your therapist? Do you think he could build a solid therapeutic alliance with you? Would he be effective with you? Why or why not?

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Role-PlaysAfter watching the video and reviewing Madigan on Narrative Family Therapy and Re-authoring Conversations in this manual, assign groups to role-play a family therapy session following Madigan’s approach to Narrative Family Therapy. Organize participants into groups of three, consisting of one psychotherapist and two family members. If time permits, rotate so each person has a chance to play the role of therapist. The point here is not to try to resolve the family’s issues, but to use this role-play as an opportunity to practice the Narrative Therapy style of interviewing and to view the family through a Narrative Therapy lens.

INSTRUCTIONS FOR ROLE PLAYERS:One person will start out as the therapist and the other two group members will decide who will be what family member. One option is to choose a segment of the video that you would like to use as a basis for the role-play; do not attempt to follow the sequence of interactions in Madigan’s demonstration session, but rather use the clients and situation in the video as a jumping-off point, and allow the role play to develop spontaneously. Alternatively, come up with your own scenario, based on a family you have worked with, your own family or a family you know well, or a completely fictional family.Participants role-playing the clients should come to the session with a “problem-saturated storyline,” (e.g. the teenager got in trouble at school and his reputation is on the line) and therapists should focus on helping the clients develop an alternative plot to the problem story. Therapists will do this by first listening as compassionately as possible to the experience the family is having with this problem in their life. Then therapists can experiment with leading clients through a re-authoring conversation, by asking unique outcomes questions which will help the clients flesh out some of the more neglected areas and events of their lives such as: previous achievements, survival skills growing up, and qualities of themselves left out of their story such as generosity, ethical stances and kindness, etc. Therapists can also experiment with asking unique account questions, unique re-

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description questions, unique possibility questions, and preference questions, all of which are described in Re-authoring Conversations in this manual. Don’t worry if it feels awkward to jump around to different questions: Use this exercise as an opportunity to begin to get familiar with the types of questions a Narrative Therapist would ask in order to help clients develop an alternative, less “problem-saturated” narrative. Therapists can follow Madigan’s model of taking notes by splitting the page down the middle and writing the problem stories on the left and the unique outcomes on the right; then use the clients’ words verbatim when you reflect back your understanding of their experience.After the role-plays, have the groups come together to discuss their experiences. Invite the clients to talk about what it was like to role-play this family and how they felt about the therapist’s interventions: What did clients like and dislike about the way the therapist listened to their experiences of their problem? Did clients feel understood and cared for? How did they feel about the therapist’s questions? Do clients feel less stuck in their “problem-saturated” narrative after this session? Then, invite the therapists to talk about their experiences: How did it feel to conduct a family therapy session using a Narrative approach? What was it like to facilitate a re-authoring conversation? How was it to ask the different types of questions? Did they find Madigan’s note-taking technique useful? Finally, open up a general discussion of the strengths and the challenges in applying a Narrative Therapy approach to working with families. An alternative is to do this role-play in front of the whole group with one therapist and one family; the rest of the group can observe, acting as the advising team to the therapist. Before the end of the session, have the therapist take a break, get feedback from the observation team, and bring it back into the session with the family. Other observers might jump in if the therapist gets stuck. Follow up with a discussion on what participants learned about using Madigan’s approach to Narrative Therapy with families.

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Complete Transcript of Narrative Family Therapy with Stephen Madigan, PhD00:19:58Madigan:HiMrs.Poindexter.

Mrs. Poindexter:Hi.

Madigan:AndOllie.

Ollie:Hi.

Madigan:WegotcaughtupoutsidealittlebitandsowegottocatchupalittlebitaboutwhereyouliveandwhereIliveandItoldyouthatIlivedalongwaysawayinCanadaandyoutoldmeyouliveduptheroadandwearegoingtokindofcontinueonthatkindofconversation.Anditwillgoforabout45or50minutes.

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay.

Madigan:Andthenwewillstopandifyouhaveanyquestionsafterwardswecanspendabitoftimetogetherafterwardsifyoulike.

Mrs. Poindexter:Alright.

Madigan:ButIguesswhatIammostinterestedintonightiswhyitisthatyouhavecometoseesomeonelikemeincounselingoracounseloratthisparticulartime.

Madigan Commentary: This is the question that I usually start all sessions with, as the question addresses the temporal dimension (past, present and future) and location of the visit to therapy. Why now and not six months earlier or five weeks later? In this case the Mother lets me know that therapy was not her preferred choice. The question also opens a discursive pathway to begin describing the person’s relationship to the problem story and who is involved in the telling/creation of this story. The question begins to contextualize the relational aspects of problem making.

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,wellmysonOlliehadaproblematschoolanditwenttothecourt.Sothenatthatpointtheyaskedaboutusseeking

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counselingforhim,aboutangercounseling.

Madigan:Okay,okay.DoyoumindifItakesomenoteswhilewetalkandifyouwouldliketotakethemhomewithyoutonightyoucan.

Mrs. Poindexter:Sure.

Madigan:Ifyoucanunderstandmywriting.

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,alright.

Madigan:Sotherewassometroubleatschool?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.

Madigan:Thatwenttothecourts.

Mrs. Poindexter:Right.

Madigan:Andthecourtsthensuggestedthatyou–

Mrs. Poindexter:Seekcounselingforhim.

Madigan:Counseling,okay.Anddidyousaysomethingthatithadtodowith,inyouropinion,somethingtodowithanger.

Mrs. Poindexter:Right.

Madigan:Andwouldthatbeyourwordorthecourt’sword?

Madigan Commentary: The languaging of problems and the location of this language brings forth difference – a tension of understandings that open up meaning about the problem and the person. I feel a strong desire in therapy to privilege the client’s language and understandings of the problem. In this way we begin to move toward local discourse and understandings and away from dominant language and understandings located in the professional expert domain.

Mrs. Poindexter:Thecourt’sword.

Madigan:Thecourt’sword.Whatwordwouldyouuse?

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,myopinion,Idon’tthinkheneedsanycounseling,butoncesomethinggoestocourt,thenyouhavetofollowwhateverstepstheysaytotake.

Madigan:Right.Sowhatdoyouthinktheygotwrong?

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00:22:02Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,saythatagain.

Madigan:WhatisityouthinkthatthecourtmaynothaveseeninOlliethatmaybeyouseeinOllieandwhattheywouldcallangeryouwouldcallsomethingelse.Whatwouldyoucallit?

Madigan Commentary: This difference in understanding the problem sets forth a tension and a curiosity for both the therapist and client as to possible reasons why this tension exists.

Mrs. Poindexter:Justagoodtalkingto.Tellinghimtotakesomething…todosomethingadifferentwayinsteadof–wellwhathedid,hewasn’ttryingtohurtsomeonebuttheythoughthewas.

Madigan:Doyouwanttotellmewhathappenedoristhatimportant?

Mrs. Poindexter:No,hesaidthathewasinthebathroom,heandanotherboy,andthattheboyhithimonthearm.Theyweren’tfighting.Theboywentoutthebathroomhesayandhecomebackin,hesaythathehithim,hetakehisbeltoffandhithimwiththebelt.Thatdosound,itdoesn’tsoundright,hitsomeonewithabelt.

Madigan:Soyouwouldthinkthathittingsomeonewithabeltisnotagood–

Mrs. Poindexter:No,heshouldn’thavehithimwithabelt.Butsowhentheboywenthome,toldhisparentsthentheyhadhimgotocourt.

Madigan:Isee,sowasOlliecharged?


Madigan:Yes.Andwhatwashechargedwith?

Mrs. Poindexter:Battery.

Madigan:Battery?Doesthatmeanassault?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes,thebelttheysaidisassault.Sothenhehadtoseekcounselingandseewhattheysay.

Madigan:Isee.Andthatiswhyyouhavecomeheretotalktome.


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Madigan:Isee.Youthinkthatperhapsagoodtalkingtoathomewouldhave–

Mrs. Poindexter:Itreallywasjustakidthing;itwasn’tabigthing.Itwasjustthattheymadeabigthingoutofit.

Madigan:Isee.Andthe“they”iswho?

Madigan Commentary: Harry Goolishian wrote a marvelous paper entitled “The Problem Determined System,” which addressed the importance of figuring out who was saying what about the problem and how this was affecting how the problem was being maintained. Similarly, the French post-structural philosopher, Michel Foucault, encouraged us to question and critique taken-for-granted notions of dominant understandings of personhood. I wanted to know who was involved in this story of Ollie needing to come to court-ordered therapy, how this story first began, what political ideologies might be affecting this story, how the story was being maintained and for whose benefit.

00:24:00Mrs. Poindexter:Theparents.

Madigan Commentary: This is the first place in the session – as you will see – that I missed raising the question about the possibilities of how race/racism may have had an effect on the story being told.

Madigan:Theparents.Isee.Whatdoyouthinkaboutthis?Wouldyouagreewithyourmomorwouldyouagreewiththecourts?

Madigan Commentary: The session was being filmed by a camera crew and I was wondering what this might be like as an experience for a 12 year-old boy, so I brought him into the session’s conversation with a question that could connect him by connecting him to his Mother’s ideas.

Ollie:Iagreewithmymom.

Madigan:Yeah,whywouldyouagreewithyourmom,Ollie?

Madigan Commentary: The ‘why’ question is known in Narrative Therapy as a landscape of identity or meaning question, where the person is asked to take a position. In this case, I am asking Ollie to state and take a position on the problem.

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Ollie:BecauseIdon’teventhinkitwasanythingordoanything[likebad]aboutlikegotocourt.

Madigan:Yeah,what’syourstoryofwhathappened?

Ollie:Iwalkedinthebathroom,hewasalreadyinthere.

Madigan:Isthisaguyyouknowor?

Ollie:Yeah,he’sinmyclass.

Madigan:Wouldhebeafriendofyoursornotafriendofyours?

Ollie:Afriend.

Madigan:Hewouldbeafriendofyours,okay.

Ollie:AndthenIwantedtolookinthemirrorandthenhehitmyarmandsaid,“HiOllie.”Hehitmeinmyarmandsaid,“HiOllie,”and–

Madigan:Isthissomethingthatyouguysdowhenyouseeeachother?Doyouhiteachotherinthearm?

Ollie:Notusually.

Madigan:Notusually,okay.

Ollie:ThenItoldhimthathurtthenhewentoutthebathroomandcamebackinandthenIhithimwiththebelt.Thenhewentbacktotheclassandwhenwegotbacktotheclasshestartedlaughing.

Madigan:Okay,andI’mnotreallyunderstandingsomethings.DoyoumindifIaskyoualittlebitmoreaboutthis?Likewhenyoutookoffthebelt,forwhatreason?

Ollie:Iwasjustplayingaroundwithhim.

Madigan:Youwereplayingaround.Soitwasaplayingaroundkindofhit?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Butitwasn’tahittohurt?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:No.Okay,anddidheunderstandthatitwasplayingaround?

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Ollie:Iguesssobecausehelaughedwhenhegotintoclass.

Madigan:Helaughed?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Andsoatwhichpointdoyouthinkthestorytookaturn?Thatitbecamefromlaughingtosomethingserious?

Madigan Commentary: In narrative therapy sessions I am always on the lookout for specific turning points in the story. For example, when did the story move from point A to point B and what information was brought forward to create a question of exactly how this discursive difference created a difference and why?

Ollie:Whenhetoldhisparentsthatsomeonehithimwithabeltinthebathroom.

Madigan:Isee.Isee.Sowhathappenedafterthat,afterhisparents–didtheyphoneuptheschoolor?

00:26:04Ollie:Ithinktheycalledtheschoolthentheschoolcalledhereandtoldmymomthattheyweregoingtosendaletterforustogotocourt.

Madigan:Isee.Isee.Nowhaveyoueverbeentocourtbefore?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:No.Andisthisanewkindoftroublethatyouwouldbeinvolvedwithoranoldkindoftrouble?

Madigan Commentary: This is the entry point towards an externalizing dialogue surrounding the problem of trouble, where the problem of trouble is not located or privatized inside Ollie’s body but is discursively located in relation to discourse and culture.

Ollie:New.

Madigan:Beanewkindoftrouble.Isee.Andwhenyourmomwassayingthatyourtroublewasschool,isschooltroublingatallforyou?

Ollie:Sometimes.

Madigan:Yeah,howwouldschoolbetroublingforyou?

Ollie:Becausetherearecertainpeoplethatdocertainthings.

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Madigan:Howdoyoumean?LikeIkindofknowwhatthetroubleislikeupinCanadabutI’mnotsureifitisthesameasthekindoftroublethatmightgoondownhere.

Ollie:Likesomepeopleinmyclasshavebadattitudesandstufflikethat.OnetimeIaskedtheteacher,wewerereadingsomethinginthebook,Iaskedtheteacherwhatpagewewereon,andthenthepersonsay,“YoushouldknowOllie,whydon’tyouasksomebodyelse,”orsomethinglikethat.

Madigan:That’swhattheteachersaid?

Ollie:No,thiswassomebodyinmyclasssaid.

Madigan:Oh,that’swhatsomebodyinyourclasssaid.

Ollie:AndthenItoldthemwhydon’ttheybequietandthesubstitutesentmetotheoffice.

Madigan:Sowouldyouhaveareputationassomeonewhohasatroubledreputationoranottroubledreputation?

Madigan Commentary: Therapy is a practice where the person and therapist are always negotiating identity. Identity in this case is called reputation. I want you to imagine all the numerous factors involved in negotiating a 12 year-old African-American youth’s identity, factors which often have nothing to do with the youth but rather are assumed to be true! In some ways the entire session is about moving Ollie away from a pre-ordained fugitive identity and towards his preferred identity.

Ollie:Nottroubled.

Madigan:Nottroubled.WouldyouagreewiththatthatOllieissomeonethatdoesn’thaveatroubledreputation?

Mrs. Poindexter:He’sagoodboy.

Madigan:He’sagoodboy?

Mrs. Poindexter:He’sokayaslongassomeonedoesn’tkeepaggravatinghimand…aslongassomeonebothershim,hewillgetangry.

00:28:06Madigan:He’ll…?

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Mrs. Poindexter:Getangry.

Madigan:Getangry.Anddoyouthink,Ollie,wouldyouagreewithyourmomwithwhatsheissaying?

Ollie:Yes.

Madigan:Yeah.Sodoyouthinkthatpeopleaggravatingyouwilleventuallygetyoutobe,getyoutohaveatroubledreputation?Doyouthinkthatispossibleandthatyouwouldhavetogiveupyourgoodboyreputation?

Ollie:No,Idon’tso.Likeifsomebodyaggravatedme,sometimesIwon’tdoanything.SometimesIwilljusttelltheteacher.

Madigan:Isee.Isee.Whichwouldyouprefertohave–atroubledboyreputationoragoodboyreputation?

Madigan Commentary: Again I bifurcate the question and ask Ollie to take up a position/protest on his preferred identity. When working with youth who feel they have no power it is important that they be invited to make claims away from certain stories and towards preferred claims about themselves. As you will see below, this line of questions privileges his story and it is done through Narrative Therapy questions that are both curious and respectful, so as to afford Ollie a place in the discussion regarding his own story-making.

Ollie:Goodboyreputation.

Madigan:Howcome?

Ollie:BecauseIdon’twanttobebad.Idon’tliketobebad.

Madigan:Whynot.

Ollie:Idon’twanttodoanything.

Madigan:Whydon’tyoulikebeingbad?

Ollie:Becausethenyouwillgetsuspendedfromschoolorsomethinglikethat.

Madigan:Yeah.Andisthatabadthingifyouweretogetsuspended?

Ollie:Yes.

Madigan:Howcomeitwouldbeabadthingifyouweretoget

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suspendedfromschool?

Ollie:Becausethenifyouareoutthenyouaren’tgoingtolearnthatmuch.

Madigan:Okay,soifyouwereoutofschoolthenyouwon’tbeabletolearnmuch.Andwhyisthataproblemifyoudon’tlearnmuch?

Ollie:Becauseifyouarenotinschoolthenyoujustwon’tbeabletolearn.Thentheteacherwon’tbetheretoteachyouanything.

Madigan:Yeah,sowhatisyoursenseofwhathappenstopeoplewhodon’thaveteachersteachingthemandaren’tlearning?Whathappenstopeoplelikethat?

Ollie:Whentheygrowuptheydon’thavegoodjobsorsomethinglikethat.

Madigan:Whywoulditbeimportantforyoutohaveagoodjob?

00:30:00Ollie:SoIcanhaveagoodlivingwhenIgetolder.

Madigan:Yeah,whywouldyouwanttohaveagoodliving?

Ollie:SoIcanhaveagoodhouseandeverything,stufflikethat.

Madigan:Goodhouse?

Ollie:Yeah,andthenIwanttobe,whatdoyoucallit,Idon’twanttobeintroubleoranythingwhenIgetolderlikegoingtojailoranything.

Madigan:Andyousaidnotgoingtojail.Tojail.Okay,sopartofthereasonthenifIcanjustrecapforyou,youwouldwanttohaveagoodreputationoragoodboyreputationisthatitwouldallowyoutofinishschoolandhavepeopleteachingyou.Youcouldmakeagoodliving.Youcouldbuyagoodhouseanditwouldhelpyounottogetintroubleandwouldhelpyoustayawayfromjail.Yeah?Wouldtherebeotherreasonswhyyoumightwanttostayawayfromatroubledreputation?

Madigan Commentary: I write down a lot of verbatim notes in therapy. One of the reasons I do this is so that I am able to re-read and re-tell Ollie what his positions in life are. My re-telling back to him affords a re-experience of the story he has told and a fresh ability for him to hear his

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own preferred story from the place of being a listener. The re-telling also makes room for him to correct anything spoken. In a sense, what we are creating through the use of his own documented story is a “counter-file” – a file that is in direct opposition to the documented story of Ollie created and written by the school, counselors, the courts, etc.

Ollie:Becauseifyouhaveatroubledreputationyouwon’thavemanyfriends.

Madigan:Youwon’thavefriends.Okay.Isthereanythingelseotherthanhavingatroubledreputationwon’tgiveyoufriendsandhavingagoodonewillallowyoutofinishschoolandhavegoodteaching,youmakeagoodliving,haveagoodhouse,won’tgetintroubleandnotgoingtojail?

Ollie:Ifyouhaveagoodboyreputationyouwillhavefriends…

Madigan:Youwillhavefriends.Okay.Alright.

00:32:00Nowitseemslikealotridingon–yougetalotforhavingagoodboyreputation.AndwouldIberightinsayingthatyoudon’tgetmuchfromhavingatroubledreputation?

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Yeah?Whatelsewouldhappentoyouifyoudevelopedatroubledreputationandtroublewasgettinginthewayofyourlifeandgettinginthewayofallofthegoodboyreputation?

Ollie:ThenIwouldbeintroublealot.

Madigan:Ifyouwerebeingintroublealot,whatwouldthatbringtoyourlife?Canyouthinkofthingsthatmaybewhatitwouldbringtoyourlifeandmaybewhatithasalreadybroughttoyourlifeinthisrecentbitoftroublethatfollowedyou?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:No.Doyouthinkyourmommighthavesomeideasonthis?

Ollie:Yeah.

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Madigan:ShouldIaskher?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:WhatdoyouthinkmighthappeniftroublewastogainmoreofalifeinOllie’slife,ifitbegantotakeoverhislifeabitmore?Whatdoyouthink…canyouthinkofthingsthatmighthappentohimandhisreputation?

Mrs. Poindexter:Gettingintotrouble,hewillnotgettowatchTV.Hedoesn’thaveaTV.

Madigan:SotherewouldbenoTVwatching.

Mrs. Poindexter:It’salreadygone.TheTVandtheSegachannel.

Madigan:Segachannel.Sohastroublealreadytaken–I’mgatheringthatOllielikestowatchTVandtheSegachannel,doyou?

Madigan:Yeah.AndsoalreadytroublehastakentheTVwatchingandtheSegachannelawayfromhim?


Madigan:Canyouthinkofotherthingsthattroublemight,ifitwastocontinuetopushOlliearoundinhislife,whatitmighttakeawayfrom.

00:34:08Mrs. Poindexter:Thiswouldmakehimhaveabadattitude.Gettingintotrouble.

Madigan:Gettingintotrouble.Howdoyouthinkitmightaffecthisschool?

Mrs. Poindexter:Withhimgettingintothis,ifsomeonedoesn’tknowhimthentheycouldthinkthatheisbad.

Madigan:Isee.Sothistroublereputationwouldcirculateamongotherpeople,evenwhodon’tknowOllie.

Mrs. Poindexter:Forsomeonethatdidn’tknowhim.

Madigan:Forsomeonethatdidn’tknowhim?


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Madigan:Isee.

Mrs. Poindexter:Theywouldthinkthathehitsomeonewithabeltandhurthim,whichhedidn’thurttheboy,butitdoesn’tsoundrighttohitsomeonewithabelt.

Madigan:Isee.SocertainstorieswouldbetoldaboutOlliethatmayinviteevenmorebitsoftrouble?

Mrs. Poindexter:Iwanthim,bytakingtheTV,Iwanthimtoknowifhegoestoschoolorwhereverhegoes,justmindhisownbusiness.Ifsomeonedoessomethingtohim,justtelltheteacheroranadultandnotfightbackifhedon’thaveto.

Madigan:Isee.Doyouhaveasenseofwhetherornotyouwouldagreewhatyourmomissayingordisagreewithwhatyourmomissaying?

Ollie:Iagree.

Madigan:Yeah?Whywouldyouagreewithwhatyourmomissayingaboutnotlettingtroubleorotherpeoplepushyouintomoretrouble?

Ollie:BecauseifpeoplepushmeintomoretroublethenIwillbeinevenmoretrouble;Iwillbeinawholelotoftrouble.

Madigan:Okay,sotroublebringsonmoretrouble.Wouldthatberightinsayingthis?

00:36:00Idon’tknowifthatiswhatyouaresaying.Areyousuggestingthatthemoretroubleyougetinto,themoretroublecouldaffectyourlife?

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Yeah?Wouldthatmakesensetoyou?Troublebringstrouble?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.Theschooldistrictthatheisinitissortofweirdtome.Forinstanceifthekidsgetintosomething,Ithinkthattheprincipalshouldfirstofalltrytoseeaboutstraighteningthesituationout,calltheparentsin,andthingsIdon’tthinkitwouldgetoutofhand.

Madigan Commentary: This is the turning point in the session. Mrs.

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Poindexter begins to lead me towards a broader contextualized and more relational understanding of the problem.

Madigan:Youmeangotocourt?

Mrs. Poindexter:Thisthing,right.Becausekidsdodifferentthingsthatmaynotmakesensebecausetheyarenotoldenoughtoknownottododifferentthings.

Madigan:Doyouthinkbecauseofotherthingsthathave,otherbitsoftroublethathavehappenedintheschoolthattheydealtwithOllieinthisway?

Mrs. Poindexter:Ithinkbecauseoftheschooldistrictthatthisthingwasdealt…Iknowthemotherapologized.

Madigan:Toyou?


Madigan:Sothemotherapologizedtoyou.DidtheyapologizetoOllieaswell?

Mrs. Poindexter:Becauseshedidn’tknow…sheprobablydid,didn’tsee?

Madigan:SheapologizedtoOllieaswell,yeah.

Mrs. Poindexter:Butonceyouhavesomeonetogotocourt,youdon’tknowwhatthejudgeisgoingtosay.Andseethejudgehetalkedlikeheknewhimpersonallylikehedidsomethingrealbadandheisnotbadlikethat.

Madigan:Whatwastheexperiencelikegoingtocourt?

Mrs. Poindexter:Itwasn’tagoodone.

Madigan:Itwasn’tagoodone?

Mrs. Poindexter:Andforawholeyearwewillhavetogoupanddowntheroadgoingbacktocourt,probationofficerand…

00:38:06Madigan:Isthatwhathappened,didyougetaprobationofficer?

Ollie:Yes.

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Mrs. Poindexter:40hoursofcommunityservicework.

Madigan:40hoursofcommunityservicework.

Mrs. Poindexter:AndIthinkitis$300andsomedollarfineinayear’stimethatyouwillhavetopay.

Madigan Commentary: Outrageous!!

Madigan:Sothistroubledstorybroughtonalifeofitsown.Isthatwhathappened?Yeah.Doyouhaveanyideastowhyitisthatyoumighthavebeentreatedinthisway?

Madigan Commentary: At this point, as a white therapist with all the power, I should have introduced the issue of race and racism. But instead I chose to lead Mrs. Poindexter into it, believing it was “safer” to conduct the session in this way. In retrospect, although it worked out right, I was wrong.

Mrs. Poindexter:DoyouknowOllie?

Ollie:No.

Mrs. Poindexter:Youdon’tknowwhy?

Madigan:DoyouhaveasuspicionorahunchastowhyOlliewastreatedinthisway?

Mrs. Poindexter:Doyouknow?

Madigan:Doyouknow?Igetasensethatyouhaveatwinkleinyoureyeandyouhaveahunchgoingon.

Mrs. Poindexter:Ijustwantedtoseewhathewouldsay.

Madigan:OhIsee.Doyouhaveasensethatheknows?

Mrs. Poindexter:Doyouknowwhy?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:Wouldyoumindifyourmomletmeknow,letmeinonwhatherhunchis?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:Youdon’twanthertosay?

Ollie:[Unintelligible]

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Madigan:Youdomind.Icanhear?

Ollie:Youcanhear.

Madigan:Wouldyoumind,wouldthatbeagoodplacetogohereandtellmeyourhunchofwhatisgoingon?

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay.Ihavehadexperiencewithschools,anotherdistrictschool,thatIdidn’thave,Ineverhadthistypeofproblem.Thisschooldistrictouthere,itjustseemslike,atleastalittleanything,thingsthatcouldbestraightenedout,thedistrictmakesabigthingoutof.Andifthekidsgettohighschool,ifhedoesn’twatchwhatheisdoing,Imeanrealcareful–berealcareful–theyareout.

00:40:07Madigan:Isee.Doyouhaveasenseastowhytheschooldistricthereisstructuredthiswayandtheoneyouusedtobeinisnot?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes,Iknowwhy.

Madigan:Whyisthat?

Mrs. Poindexter:Iwastoldthattheyhadn’tgotusedtotheblackkidsgoingtothisschool.

Madigan:Asamother,whatisitliketohavethattoldyou,thattheschooldistrictisoperatingincertainwaysbecauseblackkidsarenowintheschool?

Mrs. Poindexter:WellIdidn’tlikeit.Ineverhadanyonetobotherme.Imean,nomatterwhatcolortheywere,Ihaveneverhadnoonetobotherme.Butitseemedlikeoncetheboysgetinthatschooldistrict,theyreallyhavetobecareful.Thegirlscangetoutprettygoodiftheydon’tgettobebadgirls,buttheboyshavetoreallywatchtheirselfrealcarefulandeverythingtheydo.

Madigan:SodoyouthinkthatracehadsomethingtodowithhowOlliewastreated?

Madigan Commentary: Finally the issue of race is addressed – and now the story making takes a turn.

Mrs. Poindexter:Ithinkso.Becauseifithadn’tbeenawhiteboy,itwasawhiteboy,ifithadbeentwowhiteboysIdon’tthink,they

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wouldn’thavewenttocourt.

Madigan:SothepersonthatwasinvolvedwithOlliewaswhite?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.He’snotabadboyeither.Itwasjustthattheparents,bothofthemorone,justmadeabigthingoutofit.

Madigan:Asamother,howdoesitfeeltohaveOllieexposedtothissystemthatmaybehemightgettreateddifferentlybecauseofthecolorofhisskin?

00:42:09Mrs. Poindexter:WellIdon’tlikeit.

Madigan:Youdon’tlikeit?

Mrs. Poindexter:No.Idonotlikeit.It’slikeyouhaveablackprincipalinthehighschool,blackprincipal…nowait,no,inthejuniorhighandtheschoolhegoesto.So,ifyoucan’tbetheprincipalandhelpallthepeople,whybeaprincipalwhenyoucan’tdoallthepeoplegood.Ifyoudon’thavethepowertogowiththeprincipaljob,there’snosenseinyoubeingone.SoIdon’treallyknowwhattheyhaveonefor.

Madigan:Isee.IfIwastoasktheprincipalthatquestion,howdoyouthinkhemightrespond,thatheneedstotreateveryonewiththesamelevelofrespectandthesameway?

Mrs. Poindexter:Idon’tknowwhathewouldsaybecauseIreallydon’tknowwhathehasthejobfor,ifhecan’t,okay,sayoneyearwewenttothegradeschoolandthisblackprincipaltoldhimaboutawhiteteacher,somethingshedid.Hesay,“WellIdon’twanttotakesides.”Iwasn’taskinghimtotakesides.Iwasjust…hecouldhavebroughtbothofusintofindoutwhywasshedoingthat.

Madigan:Exactly.Yeah.Doyouthinkthattheprincipalwouldrespectyouropinionofwhatwenton?

Mrs. Poindexter:Hewouldhaveto.Especiallywhenyoutellhimthetruth.

Madigan:Tellme,whatdidthemotherofthewhiteboysaytoyouwhenshephonedupandapologized?

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00:44:04Mrs. Poindexter:No,shewasincourt,allofuswereincourt.Andshetoldmeshewassorry.Ithinkitprobablywasthattheywouldhavehimgotocourtandthatwouldmakehimafraidnottodothatagain.Idon’tthinkthattheythoughtthattheywoulddoallthattheydid.

Madigan Commentary: Internalized racism works in just this way. The classmate’s white mother was of the belief that Ollie would be treated in the same way as her own son if he had gone to court--perhaps Ollie would get a slap on the wrist. Instead, he was severely penalized, which promoted the mother’s apology.

Madigan:Who?

Mrs. Poindexter:Theotherboy’s…yes.Idon’tthinktheydiditthinkingthattheywoulddoallthatthejudgedid.Ithinkthattheyjustthoughtthatwewouldgointocourtandthatwouldscarehimintoneverdoingthatagain.

Madigan:Isee.Andhowdidtheyfeelaftertheprobationandthecommunityhoursandfinecamedownincourt?

Mrs. Poindexter:Themotherjusttoldmethatshewassorryandthatshedidn’tknowthattheywoulddoallofthat.

Madigan:Whatdidyoumakeofthat?

Mrs. Poindexter:Ofhersayingthat?Ionlysaidthatonceyougotocourtyoudon’tknowwhatthejudgessay.Youneverknowwhathewillsay.Soifyoudon’thavetogotocourt,youstayoutofthere.

Madigan:SodoyouthinkthattroublemightfindtheAfricanAmericanchildrenintheschoolquickerandtheywilldevelopreputationsoftroublemorethantheotherchildrenintheschool?Doyouthinktheyaremorelikelytotakethaton?

Mrs. Poindexter:Ithinkso.

Madigan:Whydoyouthinkthat?

Mrs. Poindexter:It’snotonly…I’mnottheonlyonethathashadabadexperience.

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Madigan:Therehavebeenothers?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.Ihaveabrotherthathadagirlgoingtoschool,averyquietgirl,neverbotheredanyone.

00:46:04Shecouldn’tfinishhighschoolthere.Shehadtogotoanotherschool.

Madigan:Whywasthat?

Mrs. Poindexter:Shewaspickedon.

Madigan:Pickedon…youmeanraciallypickedon?

Mrs. Poindexter:Oh,Idon’tknow.Idon’tthinkitwas.Idon’tknow.

Madigan:Soasamother,beinginvolvedinthisneighborhoodandschool,aretherewaysinwhichyouhavecometoknowthatyoucanmakeitabitsaferforyourchild?

Mrs. Poindexter:DoIknowofanotherway?

Madigan:Orwhatwayscanyoumakeitsafeforthemoristhatpossible?

Mrs. Poindexter:It’sawaythatyoucangotothattypeofschoolandgetoutofthere,butthesekidsdonotwantto.Okay,theydon’twanttotakealotof…hmm.

Madigan:Youcansayit.

Mrs. Poindexter:Alotof…iftheythinksomeoneisnottreatingthemright,theywon’ttakethatstufflikesomeoneusedtotake.

Madigan:Howdoyoumean?

Mrs. Poindexter:Likekidsusedtotakethatstuff,buttheydon’ttakeitanymore.Andthenoncetheysaysomething,thentheywillsaythattheyarestartingsomething.It’sreally…itisreallyworsethanitwaswhenIwenttoschool.

Madigan:Howso?

Mrs. Poindexter:BecauseIwenttoaschoolandifanyofthekidsstartedafightoranything,theprincipalsaidheisnotgoingtohaveit.Hesaidallofthekidsalwayswentthereandtheyalwayswill.Andseethat’swhattheprincipaloutherehastodo.

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00:48:03Madigan:Hesaidwhat?

Mrs. Poindexter:Hesaythatheisnotgoingtohavekidspickingateachotherorsometeacherdoingsomethingtothechildthatsheshouldn’t.

Ollie:Hehassaidthatbefore.

Mrs. Poindexter:Theprincipaldid.

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Whatdidhesay?

Ollie:Hesaidthesamethingshesaid.

Madigan:Whichwaswhat?Whichpart?

Ollie:Likeabouthedoesn’twantkidspickingoneachother,stufflikethat.Ortalkingabouteachother’smothersandstufflikethat.

Madigan:Yeah.Doyoufeelwelcomedintheschoolthatyougoto?

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Youfeellikeyoubelongintheschoolthatyougoto?

Ollie:Well,notreallybecausetheymovedusfromoneschoolthatwasclosertoourhousetoadifferentonethatisoutinCreek.

Madigan:Andhowarethosetwoschoolsdifferent?Aretheydifferentinanyway?

Ollie:Idon’tknow.

Madigan:Doyoupreferonetoanother?

Ollie:Iprefertheoneoutwherewelivebecauseitislikeclosetoourhouse.

Mrs. Poindexter:Theatmosphereisdifferent.It’sdifferent.

Madigan:Howso?

Mrs. Poindexter:Likeifyouwalkintheofficeorsomething,youdon’texpectforthemtorollouttheredcarpetforyou,buttheyactlikeyoudidn’tevenwalkin.

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Madigan:Atthenewschool?


Madigan:Isee.

Mrs. Poindexter:Well,seethattypethingisdonesofor,likeifItreatyoulikethis,yougetoutofhere.Thatiswhatitisfor.Andseealotofpeoplewhentheycan,theyjustmoveout,justmoveonawaysotheydon’thavetobebotheredwiththat.

00:50:10Madigan:Wouldwhitemothersbetreateddifferentlythanblackmothersintheschool?

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.Forinstancelikewhenthisgirlcollidedwithhimandhermothercameinandyelledathimandsay,“Don’tyoueverhitmydaughteragain.”Whenyoucouldseethemarkonhisfacewheretheycollidedwitheachother–hedidnothither.HadIwalkedinandyelledatthatchild,IwouldhavebeensupposedtobedoingIdidn’thaveanybusiness.

Madigan:Sotherearedifferentrulesfordifferentmothers?

Mrs. Poindexter:Seemslikeittome.

Madigan:Doyoutalkwithothermothersaboutthis?

Mrs. Poindexter:No.

Madigan:HavingOlliegothroughthisexperienceasamother,howdoesitmakeyoufeel?

Mrs. Poindexter:Itmakesyoufeellikeyouareabout3feettall.Anditmakesyoufeellikeifyougetyourmoneytogetheryoumoveout,too.Youmoveout,ratherthantostaythereandputupwithsomethinglikethis.

Madigan:Isthatbeingconsidered?Isthisbeingconsidered…

Mrs. Poindexter:Yes.Yes.

Madigan:…sodifficultandheartbreakingforthisfamilythatyouhaveconsideredamove?

Mrs. Poindexter:(Nodshead).

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Madigan:Yeah.Doyouhaveasenseofwhatyourmotherisfeelingaroundthis,Ollie,andwhy?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Whatdoyouthinkyourmomisfeelingaboutthisandwhy?

Ollie:ThatIdon’tthinkthattheyshouldhavemovedusfromoneschooltoanotherandthenstartedtreatingusdifferent.

00:52:05Madigan:Isee.Aretheremoreblackkidsintheotherschoolyouwerein?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Yeah.Whatdoyouthinkismostupsettingtoyourmomaboutthistroubledreputationthathasbeenplacedonyou?

Ollie:Oh,becausetheprincipaldidn’tlike,hedidn’tbringustogetherandaskuswhyithappenedoranything.Hejustaskedme,didIhithimwiththebelt?

Madigan:Isee.Yourmomhasahunchthatifitwastwowhiteboysthatthishadhappenedto,maybeitwouldn’thavegonetocourt.Wouldyouagreewiththatordisagreewiththat?

Ollie:Agree.

Madigan:Youwouldagree?Whywouldyouagreewiththat?

Ollie:Becauseifitistwowhiteboysgettingalongliketheyarefriendsandeverything,theytreateachotherbetter.Butifitisoneblackboyandonewhiteboy,theywilltreateachotherdifferentandsomethinglikethat.

Madigan:Andifitistwoblackboys,dotheygetalongokay?

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Doyouhaveahunchastowhythatis?No?Justhappensthatway?Isitsomethingthatyouhaveknownbefore?

Ollie:Itjusthappensthatway.

Madigan:Justhappensthatway.Anddoyouhaveahunchastowhyitmightjusthappenthatway?No?Doyoueverhavetalkswithyour

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momaboutwhythingshappenthatwaysometimes?

Ollie:Notreally.

00:54:00:Madigan:No.Doyouthinkthatmightbeimportanttotalkwithyourmomoryourdadoryourbrothersaboutthis?

Ollie:Mm-hmm.

Madigan:Anyspeculationaboutwhattheymightsay?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:Giventhatthishasgoneonandyouhavetodothe30hoursofcommunityservice.60hours?30?

Mrs. Poindexter:40.

Madigan:40,sorry.40hoursandpaythefine–hasthisinanywaychangedyourviewofyourself?

Madigan Commentary:Thisisanimportantidentity-makingquestion,trackingtheeffectsoftheproblemandOllie’sresponsetoit.

Ollie:No.

Madigan:No.Howdoyoucontinuetoseeyourself,asatroubledpersonoragoodboyperson?

Ollie:Good.

Madigan:Good?Inspiteofallofthisandgoingtocourtandallofthetroublethathappened,whyisitthatyouwould,orwhatisitthatittellsyouaboutyourselfthatyoustillholdstrongtothisgoodboyreputation?

Ollie:Idon’tknow.

Madigan:LikedoyouthinkifIinterviewedsomeofyourpalsoryourbrothersoryourmom,whatdoyouthinktheywouldtellmeaboutwhoyouareasagoodboy?

Madigan Commentary: This is a preferred circulation question, asking Ollie to speculate if he has support in his preferred version of himself from his community of concern. From here I want to question and thicken his own preferred description of his identity.

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Ollie:Idon’tknow.

Madigan:Youdon’thaveanyidea?Whatkindsofthingsmighttheytellmeaboutyouthatwouldtellmethatyoustillhaveareallygoodreputationasagoodboy?

Ollie:ThatIdon’tstartanythingwithotherpeople.

Madigan:Yeah.Whatelsemighttheytellmeaboutyou?

00:56:00Ollie:Idon’tdisrespectpeople.

Madigan:Don’tdisrespectpeople.Whatelsemighttheytellme?IfIwasjusttositthemhereintheroomorwritethemaletterorgivethemaphonecall.Isay,“IwanttoknowaboutOllieandhisgoodreputation.Canyoutellmeabouthim?Whatdoyouthinkabouthim?”Whatmighttheytellmeaboutyou?

Ollie:I’magoodfriend.

Madigan:You’reagoodfriend.Wouldtheytellmethatyouareafastrunneraswell,likeweweretalkingaboutinthehallway?Sowouldtheysaythatyouareagoodathlete?Andgoodstudent,youtoldmeyouhadfourB’s,anAandaC,isthatright?Wouldtheymaybetellmethatyouwereagoodstudent?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Andgoodatsports?Yeah?Whatdoyouthinkyourmommighttellmeaboutyouthatwouldleadmetothinkthatyouhavethisverygoodboyreputation,inspiteofeverythingelsethatmayhavegoneon?

Ollie:Idon’tgetintoawholelotoftrouble.

Madigan:AretherethingsthatyoucouldtellmeaboutOlliethatwouldleadmetobelievethatheisareallygoodboyandhehasagoodreputation?

Mrs. Poindexter:Oh,okay.Hedoeshishomework.Hedoesn’ttalkbacktoyou.Hedoesn’tsaybadwords.

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00:58:10Hedoesn’trunaway.

Madigan:WouldIberightinthinkingthatyouareproudofOllie?


Madigan:Ashavinghimasason?


Madigan:Didyouknowthatyourmomwasproudofyouandwhoyouwereashersonandwhoyouwereasagrowingman?Yeah?What’sitliketohearthatshebelievesthatyouaregoodboyandyoudoyourhomeworkandyoudon’ttalkbackandyoudon’tusebadwordsandthatyoudon’trunawayandthatsherecognizesthatasqualitiesinyou?

Madigan Commentary: This is a re-telling to Ollie of his Mother’s account of him.

Ollie:Ifeelgood.

Madigan:Youfeelgood?Yeah?Butwhatmakesyoufeelgoodaboutthis?

Ollie:Everythingshesaid.

Madigan:Everything?Yeah.I’mjustwonderinggivenwhatishappeningthatthereisabitofastoryoutthereofyougettingintotrouble,howitisthatwemightcirculatethestorymoreaboutyoubeingagoodboyandtogainthatgoodboyreputationback.AndI’mwonderingifitmighthelpifIwastowritealettertotheprincipalandsaythatImetyouandIhavehadareallynicetalkwithyouandreallystandbehindyourgoodboyreputation.Doyouthinkthatmightfillitoutabitmore?

Ollie:Idon’tknow.Ireallydon’tknow.

Madigan:I’mjustwonderingifotherpeoplemightneedtostanduponyourbehalf,Ollie,andsay,“Yes,hedidgetintotroubleandheissorryforit,butweneedtostrugglehardtogetbackhisreputationasagoodboybecausewefearthathemightjustbecometroubledorviewedasatroubledboy.”

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01:00:00Canyouthinkofwaysinwhichwemightcirculateandmakethisgoodboyreputationgrowabitmore?

Mrs. Poindexter:Ithinklikewhensomethinghappenedatschooltheyshouldstopmakingabigissueoutofitandthenitwon’tgothisfar.Iknowyougotoschooltolearn,youdon’tgotoschooltoplay.Buttheyreallytakealotofthechildhoodawayfromthechildifyoutreatthemthatway.Theycan’tevengointoschoolanddohardlyanythingthattheymakeabigthingoutofit.

Madigan:SodoyouthinkthattherewouldbewaysthatwecouldstandbehindOllieandhisgoodgradesandhimwantingtoplayandhimgainingbackhisreputation?

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,sayplaying–likeiftheyhaverecessandyougooutside,withhimgettingintothisthing,hecan’thardlygooutsideandplay,becausewhatifheaccidentallydidsomething.

Madigan:Wellthat’swhatImean.Iamwonderinghowlongthatreputationwillbeapartofhislifeandwhatthingswemightbeabletodo?

Mrs. Poindexter:Itseemslikeitisgoingtolastaslongasheisinthatschool.

Madigan:Yeah,I’mjustwonderingifthereissomethingelsethatwemightbeabletodoaboutfindingwaysinwhichOlliecanstandupforhimselfasagoodpersonandasagoodboyandletpeopleknowaboutthis.Likecanyouthinkofwaysyoumightbeabletoletpeopleknowthatyouarenotatroubledpersonbutyouarereallyagoodboypersonandhaveagoodboyreputation?

01:02:00Canyouthinkofwaysthatyouwouldletpeopleknowaboutthis?

Ollie:No.

Madigan:Yeah.WellIamwonderingifyourselfandthepeoplethatareclosetoyouthinkthatyouareagoodboymightbeabletofindtimeandbeginthinkingofwaystocirculatetheserumorsaboutyourselfbeingagoodpersonandwantingtofinishschool

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andwantingtohaveagoodlivingandwantingtoownahouseandwantingnottobeintroubleorgotojailandknowingthatyouarenotdisrespectfulandthatyouareagoodfriend.Thatyouareagoodstudentandthatyouaregoodinsportsandthatyoudon’tgetintoawholelotoftrouble.Howisitthatyoucanmakethatstorybiggeraboutyourself?

Weknowexactlywhatyoucandotomakethetroubledstorybigger,don’twe?SoIamjustwonderingifyouhaveanyideasabouthowyoucanmakethebigboyreputation,thegoodboyreputation,strongerinyourself?

Likeifyoubroughtsomeofthisrespectfulandfriendlyandnotgettingintotroublewaystoschool,doyouthinkthatthatmighthelp?Yeah?

Mrs. Poindexter:Ithinkthedistrictneedstochangetheirattitudeandthenthatwon’tpointthefingeratsomeoneliketheyareabadperson.

Madigan:Right,right.Aretherewaysinwhichtheseviewscanbebroughttothedistrict?ImeanIcertainlywouldbewillingtowritealetteronbehalfofOllieandyourself.

Mrs. Poindexter:I’vetalkedtotheschooldistrictandtheyknowyouaretellingthetruth,buttheyarenotgoingtogoagainstnooneelseforwhatyouaresaying.

01:04:02Madigan:Sointhemeantimehowdoyoukeephisgoodreputationalive?

Mrs. Poindexter:Itellhimdifferentthingsyouhavetoputupwith.Ithinkbeingaboyyouhaveto.Becausebeingagirl,itdon’tseemlikeyouhavetoputupwiththisstuff.

Madigan:DoyoumindifIkeepincontactalittlebitandseehowthingsaregoing?


Madigan:Andmaybebeoneofthepeopleonhissidetocontinuetoputforwardthisidea.WouldyoumindifIdroppedyoualinefrom

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Canada?

Mrs. Poindexter:That’sgood.

Madigan:AndmaybeifthereareotherkidsthatIamworkingwith,maybeIcansendyoudownstoriesaboutthemandaboutwhattheyhavefound,whetherittodowithtroubledreputationsorracism.

Nowwehavetowrapthingsuphere.


Madigan:Howwasthisforyou?

Mrs. Poindexter:Thiswasgood.Verygood.

Madigan:Wasitalrightforyou,Ollie?

Ollie:Yeah.

Madigan:Doyouhaveanyfinalwordsthatyouwouldliketosay?

Mrs. Poindexter:IwouldliketosayIdidn’tknowwewouldgettotellthestorybutitisatruestory.

Madigan Commentary: This was quite beautiful to hear because after their experiences of probation, the fine, community work and court ordered “therapy,” Mrs. Mrs. Poindexter feels that she was listened to.

Madigan:AndIjustwanttotellyouthatIreallybelieveyourstoryandIwouldliketostandbehindyourstoryanywaythatIcan.AndIamverysadthatthestoryisgoingonforyou.


Madigan:AndIamsayingthattoyouasthepersonherewithyouandalsosayingitasawhiteperson.Sothankyousomuchforcomingandsharingthisstorywithus.

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,thankyou.

Madigan:Thankyou.SeeyouOllie.Iwillgetyouraddressifyouwouldn’tmind.

Mrs. Poindexter:Okay,sure.Thanks.

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Video CreditsSpecial Thanks to:

The clients for their time and their courage to share their personal stories so that others may learn.

Graduate students, Barbara Milton and Teresa Hannon, for their dedication to the success of this project.

The faculty and students in the Division of Psychology and Counseling of the College of Education at Governors State University for their participation. Addison Woodward, Chair, Division of Psychology and Counseling, and Larry Freeman, Acting Dean of the College of Education at the Governors State University for their support, participation and encouragement.

A very special thank you to Judy Fifer, Editor, Allyn & Bacon, for her courage and vision.

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About the ContributorsVIDEO PARTICIPANTSStephen Madigan, PhD is the founder of Yaletown Family Therapy and the Vancouver School for Narrative Therapy. He apprenticed with the originators of Narrative Therapy, Michael White and David Epston, and is recognized worldwide as a highly gifted couple, individual, group and family therapist. He is the author of Narrative Therapy and Narrative Therapy Through Time, a six part “live session” DVD series on his unique approach to couple and family therapy work. He teaches narrative therapy workshops worldwide and hosts the annual International Therapeutic Conversations conference.

Jon Carlson, PsyD, EdD, Host, is Professor of Psychology and Counseling at Governors State University and a practicing clinical psychologist. He has authored 40 books and 150 journal articles, and developed over 200 videos featuring leading experts in psychotherapy, substance abuse treatment, and parenting and couples education.

Diane Kjos, PhD, Host, now retired, was a professor at Governors State University in Illinois for 22 years, and past president of both the Illinois Counseling Association and the National Career Development Association. She is co-author, with John Carlson, of two textbooks— Theories of Family Therapy and Becoming an Effective Therapist—and co-host of the video series Psychotherapy with the Experts, Family Therapy with the Experts, and Brief Therapy Inside-out.

MANUAL AUTHORSAli Miller, MA, MFT, is a psychotherapist in private practice in San Francisco and Berkeley, CA. She works with individuals and couples and facilitates therapy groups for women. You can learn more about her practice at www.AliMillerMFT.com.

Stephen Madigan, PhD is the founder of Yaletown Family Therapy and the Vancouver School for Narrative Therapy. He apprenticed with the originators of Narrative Therapy, Michael White and David

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Epston, and is recognized worldwide as a highly gifted couple, individual, group and family therapist. He is the author of Narrative Therapy and Narrative Therapy through Time, a six part “live session” DVD series on his unique approach to couple and family therapy work. He teaches narrative therapy workshops worldwide and hosts the annual International Therapeutic Conversations conference..

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