Multiple Documents - Ohio State University€¦ · Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-1 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 6 LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE June 4, 2015 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

Multiple DocumentsPart Description1 12 pages2 Exhibit 1 - Lue Alice Abercrombie3 Exhibit 2 - Victoria Banks4 Exhibit 3 - Sandra Beatty5 Exhibit 4 - Josue Berduo6 Exhibit 5- Charlotte Boyd-Malette7 Exhibit 6 - Carnell Brown8 Exhibit 8 - Doris Burke9 Exhibit 9 - Marc Burris10 Exhibit 10 - Emma Carr11 Exhibit 11 - Jason Chislom12 Exhibit 13 - Nadia Cohen13 Exhibit 14 - Carolyn Coleman14 Exhibit 15 - Helen Compton15 Exhibit 16 - Kate Cosner16 Exhibit 17 - Terrilin Cunningham17 Exhibit 20 - Allison Deters18 Exhibit 21 - Michael Gary Dickerson19 Exhibit 22 - Cherise Dill20 Exhibit 23 - Louis Duke21 Exhibit 24 - Sherry Durant22 Exhibit 25 - Hakeem Dykes23 Exhibit 26 - Alexander Ealy24 Exhibit 27 - Armenta Eaton25 Exhibit 29 - Gwendolyn Farrington26 Exhibit 30 - Kelvin Fisher27 Exhibit 31 - Ted Fitzgerald28 Exhibit 32 - Lynnette Garth29 Exhibit 33 - Elizabeth Gignac30 Exhibit 34 - Anna-Patrice Harris31 Exhibit 35 - Bishop Lonnie Gene Hatley32 Exhibit 36 - Rev. Jimmie Hawkins33 Exhibit 37 - Jorgen Jensen34 Exhibit 38 - Carlton Augustus Jordan, Jr.35 Exhibit 40 - Paul Kearns36 Exhibit 42 - William Kittrell37 Exhibit 44 - Brian LiVecchi38 Exhibit 45 - Nancy Lund39 Exhibit 46 - Quisha Mallette

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH CAROLINA et al v. STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA et al, Docket No. 1:13-cv-00660

© 2015 The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Service // PAGE 1

http://www.bloomberglaw.com/ms/public/document/Terms_of_Service

40 Exhibit 47 - James Manley41 Exhibit 48 - George McCue42 Exhibit 49 - Bryan McGowan43 Exhibit 51 - Rev. John Mendez44 Exhibit 52 - Brian Miller45 Exhibit 53 - Becky Mock46 Exhibit 54 - Gregory Moss47 Exhibit 56 - Maria Palmer48 Exhibit 57 - Yolanda Paylor49 Exhibit 58 - Mary Perry50 Exhibit 59 - Tawanda Pitt51 Exhibit 60 - Marcia Pleasant52 Exhibit 61 - Cherie Poucher53 Exhibit 62 - Candi Rhinehart54 Exhibit 63 - Dean Roberts55 Exhibit 64 - Susan Schaffer56 Exhibit 66 - Gary Sims57 Exhibit 67 - Brandi Smith58 Exhibit 69 - Gerrick Suggs59 Exhibit 70 - Kelly Thomas60 Exhibit 71 - Marshall Tutor61 Exhibit 72 - Lynne Vernon-Feagans62 Exhibit 73 - Lynne Walter63 Exhibit 74 - Bessie Ward64 Exhibit 75 - Timothy Washington65 Exhibit 76 - Yvonne Washington66 Exhibit 78- Barbara Webb67 Exhibit 79 - Ebony West68 Exhibit 80 - Stephanie Williams69 Exhibit 81 - Malcolm Wilson




LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE June 4, 2015

DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS www.discoverydepo.com 1-919-424-8242

1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

NORTH CAROLINA STATE CONFERENCE )

OF THE NAACP, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

v. ) Civil Action No.

) 1:13-CV-658

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the Governor )

of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

_________________________________

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

) 1:13-CV-660

v. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants. )

_________________________________

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)

Plaintiff, ) 1:13-CV-861

)

v. )

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,)

)

Defendants )

DEPOSITION OF

LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE

2

1

2

3 DEPOSITION OF

4 LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE

5 ________________________________________________

10:40 A.M.

6

THURSDAY, JUNE 4, 2015

7 ________________________________________________

8 222 DIVISION DRIVE

9 WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA

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By: Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 For the Plaintiff:3 Advancement Project

BY: Donita Judge, Esquire4 1220 L Street, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 200055 (202) 728-9557

[email protected]

For the Defendant:7

Bowers Law Office8 BY: Butch Bowers, Esquire

1419 Pendleton Street9 Columbia, South Carolina 29201

(803) 753-109910 [email protected]

The videographer: Marty Landau12

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1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION

2 WITNESS: PAGE

3 LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE

4 Examination by Ms. Judge 6

5 Examination by Mr. Bowers 14

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9 INDEX OF EXHIBITS

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Case 1:13-cv-00660-TDS-JEP Document 318-1 Filed 07/08/15 Page 1 of 6



2 (Pages 5 to 8)

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The following will be

3 the videotaped deposition of Lue Alice

4 Abercrombie in the matter of NAACP versus

5 McCrory. File number 42304.

6 We are located here today at 222

7 Division Drive, Wilmington, North Carolina.

8 Today's date is June the 4th, 2015. The time is

9 approximately 10:40 a.m.

10 The court reporter today is Jenny

11 Carrer -- Carroll. My name is Marty Landau. I

12 am the videographer.

13 At this moment, will counsel present

14 please state your name and who you represent, for

15 the record.

16 MS. JUDGE: Yes. Good morning. Donita

17 Judge on behalf of the North Carolina NAACP,

18 plaintiffs, with Advancement Project.

19 MR. BOWERS: And good morning. My name

20 is Butch Bowers. I'm an attorney from Columbia,

21 South Carolina, here on behalf of Governor

22 McCrory, and I'll be representing all of the

23 defendants in the deposition today.

24 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You may swear the

25 witness, please.

6

1 LUE ALICE ABERCROMBIE,

2 having been first sworn by the court reporter and

3 Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

4 nothing but the truth, testified as follows:

5 EXAMINATION

6 BY MS. JUDGE:

7 Q. Good morning, Ms. Abercrombie. I am Donita Judge

8 from Advancement Project. And again, I represent

9 the North Carolina NAACP State Conference.

10 Ms. Abercrombie, we are here today

11 because you have indicated that you are unable to

12 travel to the Winston-Salem trial this July due

13 to the fact that it's over a hundred miles. Is

14 that still correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. And have you ever been deposed before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. House Bill 589, this is -- whenever you hear me

19 reference that, that's -- this is the case that

20 deals with the voting rights issues. And

21 whenever you hear that, I'm refer -- 589, that's

22 what I'm referring to, is that case, NAACP versus

23 McCrory.

24 A. Okay.

25 Q. So I guess I want to kind of give you a few rules

7

1 of the road in terms of a deposition.

2 Please understand that you are here to

3 give testimony under oath. You are -- you should

4 answer -- you -- you must answer the questions as

5 truthfully and to the best of your ability.

6 Please listen to the entire question. I know you

7 sometimes, you know, may think that you know

8 where I'm going, but potentially you may not.

9 And also, it does give the court reporter an

10 opportunity to hear the full question before you

11 respond. You don't have to feel that you have to

12 respond immediately; you could take your time to

13 answer.

14 Also, please give a verbal response.

15 While we have a videographer here who will be,

16 basically, taking down -- you know, she will be

17 able to get a nod, but the court reporter will

18 not be able to do that. So if you could say

19 "yes," "no," "I don't understand," so that we can

20 get that on the record, I would appreciate that.

21 Also, if you do not understand a

22 question, please ask me to rephrase it or ask

23 Mr. Bowers to rephase -- rephrase the question,

24 and we'll be happy to do that.

25 Don't speculate on an answer. If you

8

1 don't know something, you don't know. You know,

2 "yes," "no," "I don't know."

3 And finally, if you need a break or --

4 at any time, please let me know and let -- let us

5 know and just -- you know, I just ask that you

6 allow me to finish the question that I have on

7 the table and -- and then we can take a break.

8 Okay?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you.

11 Let me start out. Please -- please give

12 me your -- what is your full name, please?

13 A. Lue Alice Abercrombie.

14 Q. And Ms. Abercrombie, where were you born?

15 A. Waterbury, Connecticut.

16 Q. And how long have you lived in North Carolina?

17 A. Over 20 years.

18 Q. Where do you currently reside?

19 A. In New Hanover. 714 Queen Street, Wilmington,

20 North Carolina.

21 Q. And approximately how long have you lived there?

22 A. A year.

23 Q. Okay. Where did you live before moving to your

24 current address?

25 A. In a motel.




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 Q. Okay. And do you believe you are currently

2 registered to vote?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In which county are you registered to vote?

5 A. New Hanover County.

6 Q. Do you recall when you registered to vote?

7 A. February the 5th of 2014.

8 Q. And why does that date stick in your mind?

9 A. Because it's on my driver license.

10 Q. Okay. And are you currently employed?

11 A. No, I'm not.

12 Q. Okay. And is there a reason why you are

13 unemployed?

14 A. Yes, it is. I'm disabled.


16 I'm going to turn, really quickly, to

17 voter registration. You've indicated that you

18 are registered to vote here, and that you did

19 register when you moved to your new address; is

20 that correct?

21 A. That is.

22 Q. When did you first register to vote in North

23 Carolina?

24 A. In the state of North Carolina, I think it was in

25 February, but I can't remember exactly what date.

10

1 But it was 2010, I think.

2 Q. Okay. Do you recall receiving a voter

3 registration card after you registered in 2010?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And do you recall receiving a voter registration

6 card from the New Hanover Board of Elections

7 after you registered in 2014?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why didn't you call the Board of Elections to ask

10 about your voter registration?

11 A. Because I was never given a number to contact if

12 I didn't receive it.

13 Q. Okay. So after registering to vote in 2010, did

14 you vote in the -- any election prior to November

15 2014?

16 A. No, ma'am.

17 Q. And why not?

18 A. Because I didn't know where to go.

19 Q. Okay. So I'm going to turn my attention now to

20 November 24 [sic], the election process, and your

21 voting November 2014. Okay?

22 So where did you go to vote on election

23 day in November 2014?

24 A. November the 14th was on Princess Drive, at a

25 school.

11

1 Q. Okay. And do you believe that the Princess

2 Drive, at the school location, was the place

3 where you were supposed to vote?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And why do you believe that you were supposed to

6 vote there?

7 A. Because me and my fiance, we stay on the same

8 street, and he went there. So I thought by us

9 living on the same street, I was able to go there

10 too, because I never got any card stating where I

11 needed to go.

12 Q. Okay. Had you ever previously voted there?

13 A. No. That was my first time.

14 Q. What time did you arrive there on November of --

15 November 2014, at the general election?

16 A. I believe I arrived about 3 o'clock.

17 Q. Three o'clock?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. And do you know approximately how far that pre --

20 the Princess Place Drive precinct is from your

21 current address?

22 A. No, I do not.

23 Q. Okay. And so you believe that you arrive --

24 arrived there approximately 3 o'clock. What

25 happened when you arrived there?

12

1 A. Well, it was a long line. And it was cold

2 outside. And I stayed out there for

3 approximately three hours -- right between three

4 to four hours before I got in. And then when I

5 got to the front door, the lady that was -- that

6 was letting people in and stuff, she said that

7 she -- if she knew that I was outside, she would

8 have had -- had me come inside.

9 And so while everybody else was going

10 around, she had me sit there, because I was cold.

11 And then when it was my time when they got to a

12 certain spot where she had other people hold my

13 spot, when I got to the front, there was a man

14 there and he told -- I gave him my name and

15 everything. And he said to me that I was at the

16 wrong place to be voting. And by the time that

17 he send me to where I needed to go, it will be

18 too late, because it was already almost five

19 minutes to 7:30, and the door will be locked. So

20 that's what happened.

21 Q. Okay. And so at that point, what happened next?

22 A. He told me that if I vote, it might count and it

23 may not count.

24 Q. Okay. And did the poll worker provide you with

25 the location of your correct precinct?


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4 (Pages 13 to 16)

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1 A. No, he did not.

2 Q. And why did you ultimately decide to vote what is

3 called a provisional ballot at this precinct when

4 you knew that it potentially would not count?

5 A. Well, I really didn't actually think that it

6 wouldn't count. I was hoping and praying that it

7 would count, even though that I was at the wrong

8 precinct. But if I knew that I was at the wrong

9 precinct, I would have went to the precinct that

10 I needed to go to.


12 Did you follow up to determine whether

13 your provisional ballot was counted?

14 A. I didn't have anywhere -- any knowledge of where

15 to go. No one gave me the information. I still

16 didn't have the information.

17 Q. So are you saying that the poll worker did not

18 give you any type of documentation that gave --

19 would tell you how to follow up on your

20 provisional ballot?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Okay. My last question at this point

24 is: Do you know whether your provisional ballot

25 was counted?

14

1 A. Yes, I do now.

2 Q. And what was that --

3 A. It was not.

4 MS. JUDGE: Thank you. I have no

5 further questions.

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. BOWERS:

8 Q. Ms. Abercrombie, good morning.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. We met earlier. Again, my name is Butch Bowers,

11 and I'm a lawyer here in this case. I've got a

12 few questions for you as well, if that's okay?

13 A. That's okay, sir.

14 Q. Let me ask you first: Are you represented by a

15 lawyer here today?

16 A. Yes, I am.

17 Q. You are. So she's your lawyer?

18 A. Well, no. No. No.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. Uh-uh. I'm sorry. No.

21 Q. Let -- let me -- let me rephrase the question.

22 Here, sitting here in this room today,

23 do you have a lawyer who is representing you with

24 regards to your deposition?

25 A. I don't understand.

15

1 Q. Do -- all right. Let me back up. Let me start

2 over.

3 Do you have a lawyer? Are you

4 represented by a lawyer?

5 It's not a trick question. I'm just...

6 A. I don't -- I don't know how to answer that.

7 Q. Okay. Ms. Judge is here as a lawyer. You

8 understand that, right? You understand she's a

9 lawyer here in this lawsuit, correct?

10 A. Yes. But not for me.

11 Q. Okay. That's all I'm trying -- she's not your

12 lawyer?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. That's all I was trying to get at. I

15 promise it's not a trick question.

16 A. Okay. I don't know how to answer that. But I'll

17 say no.

18 She's not my attorney. No, she's not.

19 Q. Okay. That's all I'm trying to find out.

20 Because -- and I don't mind telling you why I

21 want to know. And it's because if she is your

22 lawyer, then that means y'all have an

23 attorney-client privilege and I can't ask you

24 anything about what y'all talked about. But now

25 that we've established she's not your lawyer, I

16

1 can ask you if y'all -- if you have met with her

2 before today.

3 A. Yes. Dealing with what's going on. Of the case.

4 Q. Okay. And what did y'all talk about, if you

5 recall?

6 A. We talked about that she's representing -- not

7 the NWCP but the -- the client that -- that's

8 dealing with -- and my -- and we talked about my

9 vote wasn't counted.

10 Q. Okay. So did you learn from her that your vote

11 wasn't counted?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn about this

14 lawsuit that brings us all here today?

15 A. On TV. That's when I actually heard about it.

16 Q. Okay. When was that?

17 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was this year. This year

18 or about the last of last year.

19 Q. All right. You -- you -- I think you just

20 testified that you voted in November of 2014,

21 right?

22 A. That's -- that's correct. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Did you -- do you remember if you heard

24 about this lawsuit before that or after that?

25 A. No. It was after.




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 Q. It was after that? Okay.

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. Are you currently employed?

4 A. No, I am not.

5 Q. Okay. Do you have a driver's license?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. I think you testified earlier, you -- you

8 registered to vote when you got your driver's

9 license; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Okay. That's a North Carolina driver's license?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And it's got your picture on it, right?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay. Do you know where -- strike that.

16 A. Excuse me.

17 Q. So is it -- is it accurate to say that when you

18 went to vote in 2014, you thought you were going

19 to the right precinct but you later found out you

20 were at the wrong precinct? Is that fair?


22 Q. Okay. Do you now know where your -- your right

23 precinct is?

24 A. No, I do not.

25 Q. You don't?

18

1 A. I still haven't got anything in the mail, at all.

2 Q. Ms. Judge hadn't told you -- she told you your

3 vote didn't count, but she didn't tell you where

4 to go vote?

5 A. Oh, yeah. She showed me where I needed to go

6 now.

7 Q. Okay. That's what -- so you do know --

8 A. But I haven't received anything in the mail.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. That's what I'm saying, sir.

11 Q. Okay. But you do -- separate and apart from

12 receiving anything in the mail, you do know where

13 you're supposed to go now, correct?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. That is correct. Yes.

17 Q. All right. As we sit here today, do you -- do

18 you have any reason to believe that you won't be

19 able to go vote at your correct precinct?

20 A. Oh, I'll be able to go since I know where to go

21 at now.

22 Q. Okay. How long did you live in Connecticut?

23 A. I lived in Connecticut for approximately four

24 years. I was a little girl when I left

25 Connecticut.

19

1 Q. Okay. When was the first time you ever

2 registered to vote in any state?

3 A. In any state was North Carolina.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. That -- to my knowledge, that I can remember. It

6 was in North Carolina. 2010.

7 Q. Okay. And where was that?

8 A. Goldsboro?

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I believe it was in Goldsboro.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. I'm not for sure.

13 Q. That's okay.

14 Where are we having this deposition

15 today? Like, what building? Do you know?

16 A. No. This is the first time I've ever been here.

17 Q. Okay. So you don't know why we're having the

18 deposition here?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. That's fine.

21 MR. BOWERS: I don't think I have any

22 more questions. Thank you for your time.

23 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.

24 MS. JUDGE: I have no further questions.

25 Thank you.

20

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. All right. We

2 are going off record at 10:56 a.m. This is

3 conclusion of media number 1 in today's

4 deposition.

5 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]

6 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 10:56 A.M.]

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1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

) C E R T I F I C A T E

2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )

3

4 I, JENNIFER C. CARROLL, Court Reporter and

5 Notary Public, the officer before whom the proceeding

6 was conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose

7 testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding was duly

8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter

10 transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 15th day of June, 2015.

20

21

22

Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

23 Notary Public #19923280118

24

25


VICTORIA BANKS April 21, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1





)

Plaintiffs, )


) 1:13-CV-658

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )


of North Carolina et al., )

)

Defendants. )

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )


) 1:13-CV-660

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA )

)

Plaintiff, )

) Civil Action No.

v. ) 1:13-CV-681

)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF

VICTORIA BANKS

HERTFORD, NORTH CAROLINA

TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES

April 21, 2015

2

1 APPEARANCES:

2

3 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

4 CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION

5 950 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE, N.W.

6 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20530

7 (202)305-0132

8 By: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE

9 Counsel for The United States

10

11 OGLETREE, DEAKINS, NASH, SMOAK & STEWART

12 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD, SUITE 1100

13 RALEIGH, NC 27609

14 By: MICHAEL MCKNIGHT, ESQUIRE

15 Counsel for State Board of Elections

16

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1 I N D E X

2 DEPONENT PAGE

3 Victoria Banks By Mr. Shapiro 5

4 By Mr. McKnight 25

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8 E X H I B I T S

9 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE

10 1 Multipartisan Assistance Teams Document 38

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1 Videotaped Deposition Upon Oral

2 Examination of VICTORIA BANKS, taken on behalf of the

3 United States, before Bria Bisignano, a Notary Public

4 for the State of North Carolina at large, County of

5 Currituck, taken by agreement of counsel, commencing at

6 9:30 a.m. on April 21, 2015, at the Brian Center, 1300

7 Don Juan Road, Hertford, North Carolina, 27944.

8

9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going on record. The

10 time is 9:41 a.m. Today's date is April the 21st,

11 2015. This is the video deposition of Victoria Banks

12 taken by the Plaintiffs in the matter of the North

13 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP et al., v.

14 Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his official capacity as

15 Governor of North Carolina, et al., in the United

16 States District Court for the Middle District of North

17 Carolina. Case number 1:13-CV-658, and all related

18 matters.

19 Will counsel please identify themselves

20 for the record, and then our court reporter will swear

21 in the witness.

22 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm Avner Shapiro

23 representing the United States.

24 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'm Michael McKnight. I

25 represent the State Board of Elections, Defendants, in




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 these matters.

2

3 EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

5 Q. Good morning, Ms. Banks.

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. Could you please state your full name for

8 the record.

9 A. Victoria Banks.

10 Q. And, Ms. Banks, where do you live?

11 A. I live in Hobbsville, North Carolina.

12 Q. Are you married?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you have any children?

15 A. Yes, I have one son, eight years old.

16 Q. Okay. And where do you work, Ms. Banks?

17 A. I work at the Brian Center in Hertford,

18 North Carolina.

19 Q. And what's the Brian Center?

20 A. It's a nursing home.

21 Q. Okay. And how long have you worked there

22 for?

23 A. Six months.

24 Q. What is your position there?

25 A. Activity manager.

6

1 Q. Okay. Now, roughly how many residents

2 are in the Brian Center at any given time?

3 A. 60.

4 Q. Did you say "60?"

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And what's the racial composition

7 approximately of those in that -- in the center?

8 A. It's a pretty good split.

9 Q. Split between what?

10 A. Black and white.

11 Q. Okay. And in your experience, what role,

12 if any, does a person's economic or educational

13 circumstances play into whether they end up in a

14 nursing home like the Brian Center?

15 A. Well, sometimes it can depend on, you

16 know, their life choices. Sometimes, you know, it's

17 genetics and different things, you know, that may be in

18 their family history, but, you know, just sometimes

19 things that they just can't help or had -- couldn't

20 voice it because of, like, an accident or something

21 like that. So but, like, less than five percent

22 usually that -- that ends up in a nursing home. Not

23 all people end up in a nursing home so --

24 Q. So why are people end up -- more

25 specifically, why do people -- when you say -- are

7

1 there younger folks who are in nursing homes who are

2 not particularly old?

3 A. Yeah, we have younger residents.

4 Q. Okay. What are the types of things that

5 causes them to end up in a nursing home, what kinds of

6 difficulties?

7 A. Drug use, accidents, you know, things

8 like that.

9 Q. And does that have any relationship to

10 their economic circumstances?

11 A. Sometimes economic circumstances is a

12 factor. Poor eating habits and bad choices I guess,

13 things like that.

14 Q. What about medical conditions like

15 diabetes, is that something you see here?

16 A. Yes, we see that a lot. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Diabetes is a common issue for

18 folks here?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what -- and the -- and the condition

21 of diabetes, does that have any relationship with what

22 people are eating and the medical attention they have

23 gotten --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. -- through their -- the course of their

8

1 life?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does that also have a relationship to

4 their economic circumstances?

5 A. I would say so.

6 Q. And about how many of the residents here

7 have difficulties reading that you know about,

8 difficulties reading because of their educational

9 background?

10 A. I would say about maybe 10 of them. I

11 would say close to that.

12 Q. Okay. And what would --

13 A. About.

14 Q. And what would you say is the race of

15 most of those folks, the ones who have difficulty

16 reading because of their educational background?

17 A. I would think African-American.

18 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier that

19 your position here is as the activities director; is

20 that right?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. And as the activities director, what are

23 your responsibilities?

24 A. I plan and schedule events and activities

25 for them to do that kind of, you know, gives them a




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 better quality of life, you know, just stimulates them,

2 keeps them in socialization with others in groups, and

3 you know, just helps them have a better life.

4 Q. Do you want to give me a sense as to what

5 those kinds of activities are typically?

6 A. Bingo is the favorite.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. They love bingo. We do things like trips

9 to the library, other things like that. We have games

10 like bowling or bean bag toss, which is corn hole,

11 similar to that. We play that.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. There's many, many different activities,

14 socials and parties, you know, birthday parties and

15 events.

16 Q. Okay. And, Ms. Banks, do your

17 responsibilities as activities director include

18 assisting the residents with exercising their right to

19 vote?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, how did you go about helping

22 residents exercising that right in the lead up to the

23 November 2014 election?

24 A. Well, kind of, you know, went around,

25 asked the residents, you know, who wanted to vote, kind

10

1 of jotted those names down, and -- and then, you know,

2 different meetings or different group settings when we

3 got together or individually, I would ask them if they

4 wanted to vote, and, you know, kind of still making

5 sure of the list that I had and -- and just let them

6 know that it was almost voting time, and so that they

7 can be thinking about that and getting prepared, and

8 that's pretty much what I did up until the day that --

9 that I took the residents to vote.

10 Q. Okay. So if I understand you correctly,

11 you -- meetings with residents?

12 A. Um-hmm.

13 Q. -- on a number of occasions, so sort of

14 asking --

15 A. Um-hmm.

16 Q. -- folks do you want to vote; is that

17 right?

18 A. Right. Yes.

19 Q. And for the individuals who said they

20 wanted to vote, you write down their names; is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what was your intention -- what were

24 you going to do with the names you wrote down?

25 A. We had to prepare, you know, like, to get

11

1 them transportation to -- to vote, you know, and for

2 them to be able to have proper seating --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- in the vehicle.

5 Q. And -- okay. And, Ms. Banks, were you

6 looking to do that on election day?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And are you aware of anything else

9 that was done in this facility to get ready for the

10 election and to help people to vote in this election?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Ms. Banks, to your knowledge,

13 during the 2014 election, did anyone at the local Board

14 of Elections provide you or anyone else here at the

15 nursing home with any information about voting?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did anyone from the Board of Elections in

18 any way contact you or anyone else to your knowledge to

19 provide information about the requirements and rules

20 for voting --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- in the election?

23 So you were telling us about how you were

24 writing down the names of the different folks who were

25 interested in voting. About how many individuals

12

1 approached you expressing interest in voting?

2 A. About five or six of them were saying

3 that they, you know, were going to vote.

4 Q. Okay. So what happened when -- when

5 election day came around?

6 A. Election came, and I made the

7 announcement for them to come, you know, to the front

8 or whatever to go vote, and I had two that showed up.

9 Q. Okay. And if you don't mind, who were

10 the two individuals -- what were the last names of the

11 two individuals who showed up?

12 A. Skinner and Jordan.

13 Q. Okay. Was it a Mr. Skinner and Mrs.

14 Jordan, was that right?

15 A. Um-hmm.

16 Q. Okay. And could either of those two

17 individuals walk?

18 A. (Deponent shook head). No.

19 Q. "No."

20 Were they both in wheelchairs?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So how did you go about getting

23 them in the van, how did that work?

24 A. We have a facility van that has the doors

25 that open in the back, and the -- and it has a lift




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 thing that goes down, and you just kind of wheel them

2 up onto this lift, and you lock it down, and then you

3 push the button for it to go up, and then it goes up,

4 and then you just wheel them into the van, and then

5 there's -- I guess you have to, you know, lock it down

6 and properly position everyone, and then make sure all

7 the wheels are locked and --

8 Q. Did you do all that by yourself, Ms.

9 Banks?

10 A. I did have a helper.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. So --

13 Q. So someone was helping you --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- with transporting them to the polls --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- in this special van?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And does the facility have one van or

20 more than one van?

21 A. Just one.

22 Q. Just that one?

23 A. Um-hmm.

24 Q. Okay. And how many people can that van

25 transport at any given time?

14

1 A. Seven --

2 Q. "Seven?"

3 A. -- altogether but only two wheelchairs.

4 Q. Only two wheelchairs at any --

5 A. Two wheelchairs.

6 Q. -- one time?

7 A. Um-hmm.

8 Q. So it's good that you didn't have more

9 than two people in a wheelchair?

10 A. In wheelchairs, yeah. We'd have taken

11 more trips.

12 Q. "More trips?"

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So -- so you were lucky you only

15 had two, you were able to get them both into your one

16 van with the help of someone, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then what did you do then?

19 A. I followed the van to the courthouse in

20 Hertford.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. And we drove around the back of the

23 courthouse where the handicapped spot was designated

24 for the handicapped voters.

25 Q. Ms. Banks, if I may interrupt, why did

15

1 you go to the courthouse?

2 A. Well, because that's where, you know, the

3 voting -- that I thought that's where we could go and

4 vote, you know, was at the courthouse in Hertford.

5 That was the place that I knew --

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. -- that they could vote, and so we went

8 around there.

9 Q. So I interrupted. You were saying you

10 were looking for a place where handicapped individuals

11 could --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- vote?

14 A. Yes.

15 And so we went around to the back of the

16 building, and it was a place marked, but it was a -- it

17 was not easy to get in and out of the parking space for

18 the handicapped, and there was a bell there. Like, a

19 stand with a bell on it that you could ring to ask for

20 help --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- and for someone to come out. And we

23 rang the bell, and no one came out. And so I kind of

24 went around the front of the courthouse and went

25 inside, and spoke with someone, and they said that they

16

1 would be right out, you know, to -- to help us, and

2 so --

3 Q. What happened then?

4 A. It was probably about maybe 5 to

5 10 minutes, I don't know exact, but it was a few

6 minutes before someone come out, and they asked us

7 about where were they registered to vote at and the

8 districts, and they checked their records, and

9 Mr. Skinner was supposed to go to, like, the school,

10 and Ms. Jordan was registered in Chowan County, so she

11 wasn't able to vote.

12 Q. Well, let me -- let me backtrack. So you

13 mentioned that you're in -- this is all happening in

14 Hertford --

15 A. Um-hmm.

16 Q. -- which is in Perquimans County; is that

17 right?

18 A. Perquimans is the way we say --

19 Q. How do you pronounce it?

20 A. Perquimans.

21 Q. "Perquimans" County.

22 This is all the -- this is in Northeast

23 North Carolina, Perquimans County, and if I understand

24 you correctly, you're saying that Mr. Skinner was

25 registered in Perquimans?




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But Ms. Jordan was not, she was

3 registered in a neighboring county; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that -- did you say "Chowan County?"

6 A. Chowan.

7 Q. "Chowan" County.

8 Okay. So -- and they said that

9 Mr. Skinner, if I understood you correctly, was

10 registered but that the courthouse was not his voting

11 site; is that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And that he -- and were you told that he

14 had to go to another polling site in order to vote?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And I think you mentioned the

17 school as the polling site?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What school precisely?

20 A. Central I think. It was over there by

21 where the railroad tracks are.

22 Q. Oh.

23 A. It's right up the road from here.

24 Q. Okay. How far is that from the

25 courthouse? How far a drive is that roughly?

18

1 A. From the courthouse, probably five

2 minutes.

3 Q. Okay. So what did you do then?

4 A. Well, we had to get out of the spot that

5 we were in, which was, you know, back -- backing the

6 van out into the street, and I kind of had to help the

7 van driver get back out into the street because it was

8 difficult, you know, driving the van to get out of this

9 spot. And then -- and then I got to the car, and we

10 went to the school, and there was a handicapped parking

11 spot there that we could park at, but then we wouldn't

12 be able to get the wheelchairs out and across where the

13 grass was. We had to go across grass.

14 So but the people said that, you know, if

15 we wanted to go out and wheel onto the cement to get

16 the wheelchairs without having to go across the grass,

17 we could drive over across their lawn and back up to

18 another place that had cement to where they could go in

19 and wheel in, and so they drove across and backed up in

20 to unload the resident.

21 Q. So this is -- this is at the school?

22 A. Yes, at the school. Um-hmm.

23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, at the

24 school, there's no place for them to vote outside, they

25 had --

19

1 A. There was no machine outside, no, and

2 there wasn't -- there was a -- just a handicapped

3 parking spot designated, you know, for them to -- for

4 them to park there, but they said it would probably

5 take about 15 to 20 minutes to break down the machine

6 and bring it outside to vote from outside.

7 Q. So you were -- so you were told that if

8 you wanted to vote, that -- that they would to have go

9 inside?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. That we -- we opted to do that.

13 Q. Okay. And so when they went -- when you

14 went inside with -- did -- strike that.

15 Did both Mrs. Jordan and Mr. Skinner go

16 with you into the polling site --

17 A. No.

18 Q. -- at the school?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So who went into the school?

21 A. Just Mr. Skinner.

22 Q. Just Mr. Skinner, because -- because Ms.

23 Jordan was -- was not registered in the county, so she

24 -- she stayed in the van and Mr. Skinner went with you

25 into the school; is that right?

20

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And so what happened when you and

3 Mr. Skinner went into the school so that he could vote?

4 A. When we went in the school, went down the

5 hall, we had to turn and go to where the room was, you

6 know, that they were taking the votes and things and

7 the machines were set up, and they said we couldn't go

8 until we listened to this speech, you know, where they

9 had something to tell us for that we could go in.

10 And so the man that was standing there,

11 he said that next year, next election that come up,

12 that we would have to have a valid I.D. for everyone

13 before they could go in, you know, to vote next time

14 the voting come around, so that we would have to have

15 that ready before coming back the next voting season.

16 Q. Okay. And so based on what you were told

17 when you were in the polling site, based on what you

18 were told by the poll worker, is it your understanding

19 that individuals from your nursing facility who want to

20 vote in 2016 will have to have a valid photo I.D.?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And will you be informing residents that

23 they will need to have a valid photo I.D. if they want

24 to vote in the next election because of what you heard?

25 A. Yes.




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 Q. Now, you had described to us how you

2 transported the two individuals in your van and

3 specifically, Mr. Skinner from the courthouse to the

4 school so that he could vote in the school. How much

5 easier would it have been for you if Mr. Skinner would

6 have been able to vote then and there in the

7 courthouse?

8 A. Well, that would have been great, you

9 know, if he could have done that. You know, it would

10 have saved us, you know, the time and effort, but it

11 would also have been easier for him.

12 Q. Um-hmm.

13 A. We were already there.

14 Q. How much additional efforts and -- time

15 and effort was that?

16 A. Well, I guess between leaving the

17 courthouse and driving to the school and then finding

18 out where we were supposed to be and then having to

19 move the van to another place and then unload, I say,

20 you know, at least 30 minutes, you know, it was

21 probably in time, but trouble and effort was probably

22 worth a little more.

23 Q. Okay. Okay. And so in your opinion, how

24 much of a barrier to voting will this photo I.D.

25 requirement be for the residents of the Brian Center

22

1 and the residents of other similarly, you know,

2 situated nursing homes?

3 A. Definitely be a major undertaking to get

4 everyone with proper I.D.s.

5 Q. And -- and why is that? In terms of

6 the -- in terms of the -- how -- in terms of to what

7 extent are you encountering people here who do not have

8 valid photo I.D.s in this nursing home?

9 A. Well, there's a lot of them that don't,

10 and if they do, you know, they have a hard time finding

11 them, or they're not sure exactly, you know, what

12 information that they need.

13 Q. Um-hmm.

14 A. You know, but it would definitely be

15 difficult tracking down everyone's personal

16 identification documents, you know, that -- birth

17 certificates or, you know, any type of former driver's

18 license or anything that they could go on to -- to go

19 obtain a valid current I.D. --

20 Q. Right.

21 A. -- for each individual.

22 Q. And, Ms. Banks, in your opinion, how much

23 easier would it be for -- for the -- the individual in

24 this nursing home if in elections they were able -- if

25 they were qualified to vote in this county, if they

23

1 could vote at any precinct in the county rather than

2 having to go to a particular precinct in order to have

3 their vote count? How much easier would that be?

4 A. It would be a lot easier. Be easier, you

5 know, for -- I guess facilitate them, you know, to be

6 able to get them there, and they would all be in the

7 same place. They would be able to vote at the same

8 place. It would be a lot easier.

9 Q. Well, let me phrase that a bit

10 differently.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. How complicated would it be particularly

13 if you had a significant number of voters showing up

14 rather than just two --

15 A. Right.

16 Q. -- for you to be able to get everybody

17 who is a qualified voter in this county to vote if they

18 have to go to their particular polling sites?

19 A. That would be very difficult to be able

20 to have to go to many different counties or different

21 places for them to vote and many different precincts.

22 Q. And finally, Ms. Banks, if the residents

23 here were able in the -- strike that.

24 Ms. Banks, have you heard of early

25 voting? Are you familiar with that?

24

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "Yes."

3 If residents here were able to both

4 register and vote during the early voting period --

5 A. Um-hmm.

6 Q. -- as opposed to only being allowed to

7 vote during early voting and not being allowed to

8 register, if residents were able to both register and

9 vote on the same day during the early voting period,

10 would that make the life of a lot of residents here

11 easier?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why is that?

14 A. Well, because they would -- they would be

15 able to go right from here to our closest precinct or

16 the one in Hertford to be able to vote, and they could

17 register and do the voting at the -- at the same time,

18 same day, same place.

19 Q. Um-hmm.

20 A. And they wouldn't have to worry about all

21 these different rules, you know, about, you know,

22 fitting someone in in a time frame, you know. Like, if

23 someone is just coming from another place, like, you

24 know, a town that's not close around here and it's, you

25 know, not within the time frame of your early voting,




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 then, you know, that person wouldn't get to vote or

2 their vote wouldn't count, right?

3 Q. And so, Ms. Banks, someone like Ms.

4 Jordan who came from a neighboring county --

5 A. Right.

6 Q. -- like Chowan --

7 A. Chowan.

8 Q. -- "Chowan?" --

9 A. Um-hmm.

10 Q. -- is that uncommon when someone shows up

11 from, you know, a neighboring county and is in your

12 facility and may arrive even at your facility not long

13 before the election, is that the type of thing,

14 something you can anticipate happening?

15 A. Right. Yes, definitely. We have a lot

16 of people coming in and going out.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Being admitted and discharged.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. Or leaving.

21 MR. SHAPIRO: Well, thank you, Ms. Banks.

22 I have no further questions at this time.

23 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

24 Q. Ms. Banks, again, my name is Mike

25 McKnight. We met a moment ago, and I represent the

26

1 State Board of Elections, Defendants, in this matter.

2 Ms. Banks, I think you said you lived in

3 Hobbsville, was that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And is that in Gates County?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And in Hobbsville, are you

8 involved in any sort of community activities?

9 A. No, not in Hobbsville.

10 Q. Well, any -- anywhere then?

11 A. Okay. Well, I -- I belong to a church

12 that is in Elizabeth City.

13 Q. How about any other community activities

14 that you're involved in?

15 A. That's the main activity that I'm

16 involved in.

17 Q. Okay. And -- and does your church engage

18 in any sort of voter registration or voter outreach or

19 voter education activities?

20 A. Not that I know of.

21 Q. At least you don't participate in them,

22 if they do?

23 A. I don't know of any.

24 Q. Okay. And, Ms. Banks, I believe you said

25 you had been working here at the Brian Center here in

27

1 Hertford for about six months; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what were you doing before you came

4 to work for the Brian Center?

5 A. I was staying at home. I worked for a

6 company for almost 16 years managing the Wonder Hostess

7 Outlet, and they liquidated so --

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. -- I was out of work, and like I say, I

10 -- I dabbled in a couple of things, but I just -- I had

11 a job before I went there working for a nursing home

12 that was close to my house, and I was doing activities

13 there. And so my family and friends and all had heard

14 about this position here, and they kept telling me

15 about it, and so I came out and applied and got the

16 job.

17 Q. And so were you activities director at

18 another nursing home immediately before this or was

19 that before you -- I think you said you worked at a

20 company called Hostess?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. When --

23 A. So I guess that would have been about

24 maybe somewhere about 19 years ago before that.

25 Q. Okay. So before your most recent stint

28

1 here at the Brian Center --

2 A. I was at the Wonder Hostess Outlet.

3 Q. Okay. And then before that was when you

4 worked -- previously worked as an activities director

5 at a nursing home; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And -- and how long did you work there?

8 A. Three years.

9 Q. Okay. And Mr. Shapiro asked you some

10 questions about difficulties residents had with

11 reading. I think he described it as having trouble

12 reading. What did you mean by that specifically when

13 -- when -- when you agreed with Mr. Shapiro that a

14 resident had trouble reading, does that mean that a

15 resident cannot read at all or that they read slowly,

16 what did you mean by that?

17 A. Some residents, you know, I guess their

18 education background, you know, can prevent them from

19 being able to read. Some are not able to read because

20 of vision problems.

21 Q. And again, by "not able to read," does

22 that mean they can't read at all or that they just have

23 to read slowly or they might have to hold a piece of

24 paper close to their face so they see it better, what

25 you mean by that?




8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 A. Well, there's some of both, that we have

2 some residents that are blind. They are not able to

3 see, and there's some that are -- that just don't see

4 well or have cataracts and haven't had surgeries or

5 things, and then there's some that -- that are just

6 unable due to their education to not be able to read.

7 Q. Okay. And do you know how many residents

8 that is specifically that you -- you would consider

9 fall in that category here at the Brian Center?

10 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Asked and

11 answered.

12 MR. MCKNIGHT: Well, I -- I didn't hear

13 the answer, so if you wouldn't mind answering my

14 question again, I'd appreciate it.

15 A. I don't know an exact amount, but I mean,

16 I would -- I would say it's somewhere about seven

17 maybe, something like that.

18 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

19 Q. But you haven't performed any kind of

20 count or anything like that?

21 A. No, I haven't. I don't have anything

22 exact.

23 Q. And I believe Mr. Shapiro asked you the

24 race of these residents, and I think you said

25 African-American. Does that mean that they were all

30

1 African-American or -- what -- what was your response

2 when Mr. Shapiro asked what the race of these residents

3 was?

4 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Misstates my

5 question and misstates the answer.

6 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

7 Q. Well, I'll strike that and I will ask you

8 again.

9 What -- what -- Mr. Shapiro asked you

10 what the race of those residents were who you believed

11 had difficulty reading. What -- what -- what was your

12 response to that?

13 A. Could you repeat that for me.

14 Q. Yes, ma'am.

15 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm sorry. I don't mean to

16 give you a hard time. Objection. You're -- you're

17 characterizing my question. I can read back to you the

18 question I asked.

19 MR. MCKNIGHT: Please do then. Please do

20 then.

21 MR. SHAPIRO: I believe I asked something

22 along the lines of: What's the race of most of those

23 who have difficulty reading because of their

24 educational background?

25 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

31

1 Q. And, Ms. Banks, what was your response to

2 that question?

3 MR. SHAPIRO: We can ask the court

4 reporter again or I can read the question again.

5 THE DEPONENT: Yes, read the question

6 again.

7 MR. SHAPIRO: The question I asked I

8 believe was: What's the race of most of those who have

9 difficulty -- what's the race of most of those who have

10 difficulty reading because of their educational

11 background?

12 A. And I would -- I would -- I would think

13 more African-American.

14 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

15 Q. And you said you would "think" that. Why

16 would you think that? Is that based upon something you

17 have observed or you've done a count or why is that?

18 A. Of things that I have observed.

19 Q. Do you have a count of how many of those

20 residents are African-American versus another race?

21 A. Not an exact count, no. It's my

22 experience and being with them.

23 Q. Is that your experience here at the

24 facility or experience in general, or what are you

25 referring to then?

32

1 A. Both. I mean, in my experience

2 altogether, but here at the facility is what we're

3 concerned with today.

4 Q. Mr. Shapiro asked you about whether

5 anyone at the County Board of Elections here had

6 provided you with any information about voting, and you

7 said that they had not; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And did you ask anyone at the

10 County Board of Elections for information about voting?

11 A. I did on the day that we went to vote.

12 Q. And who did you ask?

13 A. There was -- it was the lady that was in

14 charge there. Her name, she gave it to me, but I

15 didn't record it.

16 Q. And how did you ask, did you call her on

17 the telephone --

18 A. No.

19 Q. -- or did you go see her in person, what

20 --

21 A. It was when I showed up at the

22 courthouse.

23 Q. And so there was someone from the Board

24 of Elections there?

25 A. I suppose she was from the Board of


MosierMS

Highlight



9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 Elections, and she was in charge there at the

2 courthouse.

3 Q. Okay. But -- and -- when you went to the

4 courthouse, was that on election day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And you testified earlier that you

7 were familiar with early voting; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. I didn't know all the rules or

9 details about it, but I had heard of that before, and I

10 was under the impression that someone was going to be

11 coming out here, but no one showed up as far as, you

12 know, to bring any type of information for early

13 registering ballots or anything like that. I know they

14 had told me in the past that that's what had happened.

15 Q. And who told you that?

16 A. Some of the other staff members here.

17 Q. And so when it got close to the election

18 and you hadn't seen anyone from the County Board of

19 Elections, why didn't you call and say, hey, are you

20 going to come out and talk to us or anything like that?

21 A. Well, I was under the assumption that we

22 could go to the courthouse and vote.

23 Q. And why were you under that assumption?

24 A. Because it was voting day.

25 Q. Because it was election day?

34

1 A. Um-hmm.

2 Q. Any other reason?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And were there any particular questions

5 that you had about the voting process before the

6 election that you did not receive information from the

7 County Board of Elections about?

8 A. No.

9 Q. In thinking about the early voting

10 process, do you know where here in Perquimans County

11 people can go and vote early?

12 A. Well, I -- I would think it would be the

13 courthouse, but I'm not sure.

14 Q. And why did you not attempt to take any

15 of the residents here who had expressed an interest in

16 voting to early voting at the courthouse?

17 A. Because I thought that we would be able

18 to do that at the -- on the day of election day.

19 Q. But before election day, you didn't

20 bother to -- to see whether that would be true or not?

21 I mean, whether you'd have to -- whether they could

22 vote at the courthouse or whether they'd have to vote

23 somewhere else?

24 A. Like I said, I was under the assumption

25 someone would be coming out here to bring paperwork,

35

1 and I didn't know any rules or -- or deadlines or dates

2 and that kind of thing.

3 Q. What efforts, if any, did you make to

4 determine what the rules and deadlines and dates for

5 voting were here in Perquimans County?

6 A. I just spoke with the -- the social

7 worker that was here at the time.

8 Q. And by "the social worker," is that

9 someone who's employed by the facility or employed by

10 the county or somewhere else?

11 A. It was -- they were employed by this

12 facility.

13 Q. But other than the social worker, you did

14 not verify the information about voting with anybody

15 with the Board of Elections or -- or anything like

16 that?

17 A. No, I didn't know that I needed to.

18 Q. And when you vote in Hobbsville, where do

19 you vote there?

20 A. I don't vote.

21 Q. Okay. And why don't you vote?

22 A. I choose not to.

23 Q. Is there any particular reason you choose

24 not to vote?

25 A. No.

36

1 Q. Are you registered to vote?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if you wanted to vote, would you know

4 where you would need to go to vote?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So you don't know whether you would need

7 to go to the courthouse in Gates County or whether you

8 -- you would have to vote at a -- at a precinct if you

9 wanted to vote on election day for example?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. So you -- you don't know either way?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You never looked into that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And I believe you said you were married,

16 too; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And does your husband vote?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know where he votes?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So you don't know whether he has to go to

23 a specific precinct site or whether he can go to the

24 courthouse when he votes on election day?

25 A. I really don't know where he goes to


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10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 vote.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I know that -- he was -- he went to vote

4 this year, but -- this past year, but I don't know

5 where he went.

6 Q. And are you familiar with the process of

7 mail-in absentee voting?

8 A. I really don't know anything about it.

9 Absentee ballot, I mean, I haven't ever experienced

10 anything with the absentee ballot, so I don't know what

11 you would have to do for that.

12 Q. Okay. Well, I would like to show you a

13 document here that I'm going to mark as Exhibit 1.

14 MR. MCKNIGHT: I think there was some

15 exhibits maybe yesterday in the depositions in

16 Goldsboro. I think we just start over with Exhibit 1

17 for each fact witness deposition, if that's all right

18 with you.

19 MR. SHAPIRO: It may be all right with

20 me. That's what we are doing or have we -- I know we

21 have been helped sometimes by the court reporters in

22 this case who have been keeping tabs on some of these

23 exhibits, is that not your understanding?

24 MR. MCKNIGHT: With respect to each

25 Plaintiff group, the Defendants have been numbering

38

1 them, the exhibits consecutively, but I think for the

2 fact witnesses, because there are so many or different

3 places, there might be some going on at the same time,

4 I think it makes sense to probably just call it just

5 maybe --

6 MR. SHAPIRO: Have the initial --

7 MR. MCKNIGHT: -- but the last -- maybe

8 last name. We'll call it, like, Banks 1 or

9 something like that.

10 MR. SHAPIRO: Yeah, I think that's a good

11 idea.

12 MR. MCKNIGHT: Why don't we do that. So

13 I don't know if there's an exhibit label or not, or I

14 can just write on here, if there's not.

15 MR. SHAPIRO: Banks 1.

16 MR. MCKNIGHT: Yeah, we'll call it Banks

17 1, if that's all right with you.

18 MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have a copy --

19 MR. MCKNIGHT: I do. I sure do.

20 (Multipartisan Assistance Teams Document

21 marked as Banks Exhibit No. 1)

22 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'm just going to ask her

23 questions generally about it, and --

24 MR. SHAPIRO: The second one --

25 MR. MCKNIGHT: I probably will be

39

1 referencing the third page, so we'll -- you can focus

2 on that, if you need a spot to focus on.

3 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.

4 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

5 Q. So, Ms. Banks, I'm going to mark this

6 exhibit as we discussed a moment ago as Banks 1, and I

7 want to ask you whether you have seen this document

8 before or not?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Banks, I'll represent to

11 you then that this is a document that came from the

12 State Board of Elections website, and at the top of the

13 page it says, Multipartisan Assistance Teams. Do you

14 see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And have you ever heard of a

17 Multipartisan Assistance Team?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Well, I'll tell you then that what this

20 document talks about is the availability of

21 Multipartisan Assistance Teams to facilities like

22 nursing homes to allow or to assist nursing home

23 residents with voting by absentee ballot by mail.

24 And so what I wanted to ask you about was

25 page three of this document then, which contains a

40

1 chart, which talks specifically about the types of

2 assistance that nursing homes can provide to residents,

3 and I want to find out which, if any, of these types of

4 assistance that you have provided to residents here,

5 because we talked about that a little bit in

6 Mr. Shapiro's direct examination.

7 So, Ms. Banks, have you ever provided

8 voter registration forms to residents here to assist

9 them in registering to vote?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. And why is that not something that

12 you have done as activities director?

13 A. Because of -- well, I have only been here

14 six months.

15 Q. And is that something that you would

16 consider doing in the future?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And I believe you said that you

19 had several conversations with residents to let them

20 know the election's coming up; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And ultimately, five or six residents

23 expressed to you a desire to vote; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And after those five or six residents




11 (Pages 41 to 44)

41

1 told you that they had a desire to vote, did you do

2 anything to make sure that they were properly

3 registered to vote before the election?

4 A. If they were -- no, because I didn't know

5 that they had to had certain, you know -- I didn't know

6 that the rules were what they are where they have to be

7 in certain districts or precincts.

8 Q. Well, were you aware that in order to

9 vote someone would need to be registered to vote?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were you aware that in order to vote

12 here in Perquimans County the person would need to be

13 registered to vote in Perquimans County?

14 A. Well, I would suppose that they have

15 to -- you know, the -- I mean, I didn't know the exact

16 rules on that.

17 Q. And looking at this chart that's part of

18 Banks Exhibit 1, the next item listed is providing

19 voter information or forms. Is that something that you

20 have done since you have been the activities director

21 here at -- at the Brian Center?

22 A. Have I provided them with any forms?

23 Q. Or any information about voting or

24 anything like that?

25 A. No.

42

1 Q. Okay. And the chart also indicates that

2 assistance can be provided with requesting or casting

3 an absentee ballot but that assistance is limited to a

4 voters near relative, a legal guardian, or the

5 Multipartisan Assistance Team.

6 I think we talked a minute ago about that

7 you were not familiar with the Multipartisan Assistance

8 Team; is that correct?

9 A. I've never heard that term before.

10 Q. Okay. And the Multipartisan Assistance

11 Team is a group of people who, as the title indicates,

12 are different party affiliations who will come to

13 facilities like the Brian facility and assist voters

14 and voting -- requesting an absentee ballot they can

15 mail in and in completing an absentee ballot if they

16 need it.

17 Is that something that you would consider

18 doing in the future now that you know about it in order

19 to assist residents here in voting?

20 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Let me get me

21 objection on the record. It's assuming facts not in

22 evidence, and it's not relevant to the testimony that

23 she's been provided about her experiences.

24 MR. MCKNIGHT: You can answer the

25 question.

43

1 A. If I have to provide this for my

2 residents for them to be able to vote in the future,

3 then I would do that.

4 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

5 Q. So you would be willing to explore ways

6 in which residents could vote by mailing an absentee

7 ballot if you thought that would help them to be able

8 to vote in the next election?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the two voters you mentioned

11 specifically, Mr. Skinner and Ms. Jordan, I don't think

12 we have first names for those voters. Do you know

13 Mr. Skinner's first name?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what is it?

16 A. Is that something I have to provide?

17 Q. I think it's a relevant question.

18 A. Okay. So -- I just -- I mean, I wanted

19 to keep the rights of my residents, you know, protected

20 if possible.

21 Q. Well, I understand that, but I think

22 that's -- that's a relevant question to determine

23 Mr. Skinner's voter registration status and all that

24 since we've talked about those issues today.

25 A. I mean, if you have to have it, I will

44

1 give it but it's --

2 Q. Yes, I think we would like to have it.

3 MR. SHAPIRO: I wonder if we could

4 provide that information under seal so -- for purposes

5 just for this particular question since she has

6 expressed anxiety about it. Maybe we could just say

7 this particular part of the transcript will be

8 confidential and used for your internal purposes as

9 opposed to -- since she's expressed concern about it.

10 I'm just trying to think about how I can accommodate

11 her anxieties here.

12 MR. MCKNIGHT: I'm not sure though how a

13 voter's status, whether they're, you know -- a person's

14 -- if a person's registered to vote, that's a matter of

15 public record, and we've talked about this gentleman

16 and his process of voting in 2014, so I'm not sure how

17 that would be something that could be even filed under

18 seal. I'm fine designating it as confidential.

19 MR. SHAPIRO: Yeah, that's all I'm

20 suggesting.

21 MR. MCKNIGHT: Does that work? Okay.

22 MR. SHAPIRO: Because I think this is

23 what I suspect -- I mean, I suspect is.

24 Can we just go off the record for a

25 second.


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12 (Pages 45 to 48)

45

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.

2 The time is 10:30 a.m.

3 (Recess)

4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going back on the

5 record. The time is 10:35 a.m.

6 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

7 Q. All right, Ms. Banks. We're back on the

8 record after a break, and Mr. Shapiro and I've been

9 talking about how you can provide Mr. Skinner's full

10 name in a way that you would feel comfortable, so what

11 we're going to agree to do is to allow you to provide

12 his full name and designate -- his full name and that

13 part of this transcript only as confidential.

14 So, Ms. Banks, if you could provide me

15 with Mr. Skinner's full name.

16 A. Skinner.

17 Q. And do you know if Mr. Skinner has a

18 middle name?

19 A. I don't know what it is.

20 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, is

21 Mr. Skinner registered to vote at this facility or is

22 he registered to vote somewhere else at another address

23 out here in Pasquotank County?

24 A. He's registered to vote in Hertford,

25 Perquimans County, but --

46

1 Q. But you don't know exactly where?

2 A. You mean, like, what the precinct or

3 district is called?

4 Q. Well, do you know what address that he's

5 registered to vote at here in Perquimans County?

6 A. Well, this is the address where he lives,

7 at the Brian Center.

8 Q. Okay. And the Brian Center address is, I

9 think it's 1300 Don Juan Road in Hertford; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you took Mr. Skinner to vote,

13 did you look up what precinct that he should have voted

14 at on election day?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. And why did you not look that up?

17 A. Because I know the courthouse has all

18 those records.

19 Q. You knew the courthouse has all of what

20 records?

21 A. About where they are able -- if they are

22 registered and what precinct or district that they need

23 to vote in.

24 Q. And so did you take Mr. Skinner to the

25 courthouse to actually vote or to look up where he

47

1 needed to vote? What was the reason for going to the

2 courthouse initially?

3 A. For him to vote.

4 Q. Okay. And then you discovered he could

5 not vote there but he needed to vote at a location

6 which you've described as Central School; is that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, the school.

9 Q. Okay. And which location is closer to

10 the Brian Center here, is it the school or the

11 courthouse?

12 A. The school.

13 Q. Okay. And Mr. Skinner was, in fact, able

14 the vote in the November 2014 general election after

15 you arrived at the correct location, which was the

16 school; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And other residents who you

19 attempted to take to vote was Brenda Jordan; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And she was not able to vote

23 because she was registered in Chowan County at the time

24 of the November 2014 election; is that right?

25 A. Yes, I believe.

48

1 Q. Okay. And have you made any effort to

2 assist Ms. Jordan in registering to vote at this

3 facility?

4 A. Yes, I spoke with her about it

5 afterwards, and that she -- stated that she was going

6 to be gone by the time the next election come, she was

7 going to be going back home.

8 Q. And home is Chowan County?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And with respect to Mr. Skinner,

11 how long has he been living at this facility, if you

12 know?

13 A. I don't know exactly.

14 Q. And Mr. Shapiro spoke with you in his

15 direct examination about the photo I.D. requirement

16 that will go into place in 2016; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it's your understanding, if I'm

19 correct, that in order to vote, voters will need a

20 photo I.D. in 2016; is that right?

21 A. Yes, the man at the polls told me that.

22 Q. Okay. And do you know if voters will

23 need a photo I.D. to vote by absentee ballot in 2016?

24 A. Well, they can't see if the -- you won't

25 be able to see a photo I.D. on a piece of paper, so I

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13 (Pages 49 to 52)

49

1 don't understand.

2 Q. Well, do you know if voters who use a

3 mail-in absentee ballot will be required to show any

4 sort of photo I.D. --

5 A. I do not.

6 Q. And if you will let me finish my

7 question, so just -- just to clean that up, your

8 understanding is that you do not know whether voters

9 will be required to show a photo I.D. in order to vote

10 by mail-in absentee ballots starting in 2016?

11 A. I would think it would be impossible, but

12 I don't -- I don't understand what they're going to be

13 asking for.

14 Q. And in your opinion, if voters are not

15 required to vote -- to show a photo I.D. in order to

16 vote by mail-in absentee ballot, would that make it

17 easier for people who live in a nursing facility like

18 this to vote?

19 A. Can you repeat the question.

20 Q. Sure.

21 If voters are not required to show a

22 photo I.D. in order to vote by mail-in absentee ballot,

23 would using a mail-in absentee ballot make it easier

24 for people who live in a nursing facility like this to

25 vote?

50

1 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.

2 MR. MCKNIGHT: And what's the basis of

3 the objection?

4 MR. SHAPIRO: Again, I think it's

5 assuming facts not in evidence, and she doesn't know --

6 she's stated she's not familiar with the absentee

7 voting process, so you're asking her to comment on one

8 particular feature of the absentee process, and she

9 doesn't -- she doesn't -- she's already told you that

10 she doesn't understand that process and the

11 requirements and the rules and the -- and the variety

12 of rules beyond the I.D. requirements that relate to

13 that -- to the absentee voting, that she's just not

14 familiar with that and not in a position to answer.

15 MR. MCKNIGHT: Well, I'm asking her her

16 opinion about whether that would make voting easier or

17 not. I believe you asked a number of questions about

18 her opinion based upon the six months of experience

19 that she's had here at the Brian Center, so that's what

20 I'm doing here. So I will try to rephrase that

21 question in a way that may make it easier to

22 understand.

23 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

24 Q. You testified a moment ago that you

25 thought it would be a major undertaking for some

51

1 residents who did not have a photo I.D. to obtain one;

2 is that correct?

3 A. (Deponent nodded). Yes.

4 Q. And if there was a way to vote that did

5 not require a photo I.D. in 2016, would that make it

6 easier for residents to vote who did not have one?

7 A. It would.

8 Q. Okay. And with respect to residents here

9 who you believe do not have a photo I.D. needed to

10 vote, how many residents do you think out of -- you

11 said there are about 60 here. How many residents do

12 you think did not have the photo I.D. that they would

13 need to vote in 2016?

14 A. Without going around and asking

15 individually, you know, I'd just be speculating, but I

16 mean, I just -- I would think that it would be more --

17 more that wouldn't be able to find their I.D.s that,

18 you know, or driver's license or records and things

19 like, that it would be hard, you know, for them to be

20 able to keep up with that type of information, but as

21 far as a number on the people, I don't know an exact.

22 Q. Okay. And do you know what forms of

23 photo identification can be used to vote by voter in

24 2016?

25 A. I guess I don't know for sure, but I

52

1 mean, I'm saying it would be a valid -- a valid I.D.,

2 so driver's license or a state-issued identification

3 card.

4 Q. And do you know if residents here who do

5 not have a driver's license whether they have a

6 state-issued identification card?

7 A. They don't. A lot of them don't, but --

8 Q. Just --

9 A. As far as the number of how many do and

10 how many don't, I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. So you couldn't say either way

12 whether there's really anybody here who does not have a

13 photo I.D. that they would need to vote in 2016?


15 answered. Mischaracterized previous testimony.

16 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

17 Q. What would your answer to that question

18 be?

19 A. As far as an exact count, I wouldn't

20 know, but I do know that we have asked for

21 identification from a couple of residents that were

22 unable to provide --

23 Q. And I believe --

24 A. -- an I.D.

25 Q. Well, that raises a good point. When --




14 (Pages 53 to 56)

53

1 when someone becomes a resident in the Brian Center,

2 when they move in, do they have to fill out some kind

3 of paperwork?

4 A. If they don't fill it out, their family

5 member or whoever their responsible party is.

6 Q. And as part of that paperwork, do they

7 have to show any sort of identification?

8 A. I don't know all of the entails of it,

9 but like I say, I haven't seen a resident come in on a

10 stretcher or in the door and hand someone a driver's

11 license, but the nursing department along with the

12 business office handles signing in or going over what

13 they call an FL2, so --

14 Q. What is an "FL2?"

15 A. It's paperwork stating about the person's

16 -- I guess their -- whatever their health conditions

17 are or, you know, their -- I guess it would be their

18 Social Security Number on there, and that would be what

19 identifies the person.

20 Q. Do you know whether a resident is

21 required to show a photo I.D. in order to become

22 admitted here?

23 A. (Deponent shook head)

24 Q. Is the answer "no" or "yes" or you don't

25 know?

54

1 A. No.

2 Q. They are not required to show one?

3 A. No.

4 Q. I think you mentioned some of the forms

5 of I.D. a resident would have to show in order to

6 become a resident. I think you mentioned that they

7 have to at least provide a Social Security Number; is

8 that right?

9 A. Yes, that would be -- that's how I would

10 figure that they identify who each person is, you know,

11 who --

12 Q. And --

13 A. They would have their name and their

14 medical history.

15 Q. And do you know if there are any other

16 type of documents that a resident would have to show in

17 order to come to live here at the Brian Center?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And would you say that -- how do most

20 residents here at the Brian Center pay for their stay?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. If -- do you know if they receive

23 Medicaid?

24 A. There's different -- different people has

25 different ways of paying their bill.

55

1 Q. But you don't know what percentage of

2 residents --

3 A. No.

4 Q. -- receive Medicaid versus some other

5 form of --

6 A. No, I do not.

7 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. I think I don't

8 have any further questions for Ms. Banks at this time.

9 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

10 Q. Okay. Just ask a few questions then

11 we'll be done.

12 Ms. Banks, when you came to this facility

13 in September as the new director of activities and one

14 of your responsibilities was assisting individuals that

15 voted, am I correct that you spoke to a social worker

16 here about what that entails and how you would go about

17 assisting voters?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. So you spoke to the social worker

20 who had been here for -- strike that.

21 And this social worker had been at the

22 facility for a number of years?

23 A. I don't know her exact employment dates

24 and times, but I know that she had said she had been

25 here for five years, but that's going on what she's

56

1 saying. I don't know no exact, no dates and that kind

2 of thing.

3 Q. But -- I see, but your impression is that

4 she had had experience with how things had been done at

5 the facility?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And had been involved in some capacity in

8 helping people vote?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So you turned to her for advice as to how

11 things are to be done; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And, Ms. Banks, on

14 cross-examination, Ms. Banks, you told us a little bit

15 more about Ms. Jordan. Now, Ms. Jordan, as I

16 understand it, she was not able to vote in this last

17 election, correct?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. And Ms. Jordan wasn't able to vote in the

20 last election because she had voted -- because she was

21 registered in a different county, Chowan County?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what is Ms. Jordan's plan for this

24 next election exactly?

25 A. She said that she would be going home,




15 (Pages 57 to 60)

57

1 would be going back home. She wouldn't be here for the

2 next time that they would have election day.

3 Q. So Ms. Jordan has not -- has elected not

4 to register in this county?

5 MR. MCKNIGHT: Object to form.

6 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

7 Q. Let me rephrase that.

8 Has Ms. Jordan registered in this -- in

9 this county where this nursing facility is?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. So what's the likelihood that Ms.

12 Jordan will be going home?

13 A. I'm not sure. Like I say, some residents

14 talk about going home, and they don't go, but then

15 there's some that say they're going home and they do go

16 home, so I can't tell you that because it depends on

17 how things are set up. You know, whether she has

18 proper care at home and that kind of thing, if it all

19 gets to work out to where she would be able to have

20 proper care.

21 Q. And what's Ms. Jordan's condition right

22 now?

23 A. She's in a wheelchair, and she's an

24 amputee.

25 Q. She has no legs?

58

1 A. She has one.

2 Q. One leg?

3 A. Um-hmm.

4 Q. Okay. And so what happens if Ms. Jordan

5 on the eve of the next election finds that she's not

6 going home then wants to vote, what happens then?

7 MR. MCKNIGHT: Object to form.

8 A. She still won't get to vote I guess. I

9 don't know.

10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

11 Q. Let me rephrase that. Since there's been

12 an objection, I want to make sure it's on the record.

13 What will you be able to -- strike that.

14 How you will be able to assist Ms. Jordan

15 in voting if before the next election -- shortly before

16 the next election Ms. Jordan is still here and wants to

17 vote?

18 A. If she's still here and wants to vote,

19 then we'll have to arrange for her go to another county

20 to vote.

21 Q. How easy will that be?

22 A. It will -- will not be, you know, easy if

23 I've got to take care of the other residents and get

24 them to their voting place, too, but it would be -- it

25 would be a challenge, you know, but --

59

1 MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. All right. Thank

2 you.

3 THE DEPONENT: Okay.

4 MR. MCKNIGHT: I have some follow-up

5 questions as well.

6 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

7 Q. We were just speaking about Ms. Jordan.

8 Other than Ms. Jordan, do you know any resident here at

9 the facility who wanted to vote in the 2014 election,

10 that would be the general election -- that was the only

11 2014 election you were here for -- but do you know any

12 resident who wanted to vote in the 2014 general

13 election and was not able to vote other than Ms.

14 Jordan?

15 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Beyond the

16 scope of my redirect.

17 MR. MCKNIGHT: You may answer.

18 A. Yes.

19 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

20 Q. Okay. And who would that be?

21 A. Carlene Hunter.

22 Q. And do you know why Ms. Hunter was unable

23 to vote?

24 A. Well, she had stated before that she

25 wanted to vote, but she did not -- she did not come

60

1 when it was the time to -- that we called for her to go

2 to the voting.

3 Q. Okay. Did you go down the hall and ask

4 Ms. Hunter if she wanted to come and vote?

5 A. We announced it. Like, an announcement.

6 Q. So you don't why Ms. Hunter decided that

7 she didn't want to come to vote on the day that -- on

8 election day?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Okay. Anyone else other than Ms. Hunter

11 and Ms. Jordan?

12 A. I don't -- I don't recollect right now.

13 Q. All right. And with respect to Ms.

14 Jordan, you testified that if Ms. Jordan was still here

15 for the 2016 election, whether it be the primary or the

16 general, that you have to take her to another county to

17 vote; is that right?


19 MR. MCKNIGHT: What's the objection?

20 MR. SHAPIRO: Mischaracterizes her

21 testimony.

22 MR. MCKNIGHT: Okay. Well, if -- again,

23 I was asking --

24 MR. SHAPIRO: Again, if you want to refer

25 to the question that was asked, I can try to restate it




16 (Pages 61 to 63)

61

1 as most accurately as possible or if you want just to

2 ask a new question, that might be easier.

3 MR. MCKNIGHT: Sure. I'll ask a new

4 question I think.

5 BY MR. MCKNIGHT:

6 Q. All right. Ms. Banks, if Ms. Jordan is

7 still here in 2016 either before the primary or general

8 election, what do you believe you will have to do in

9 order to enable Ms. Jordan to vote?

10 A. If she was still here at that time that

11 it was election time and she stated that she did want

12 to vote, I would -- I would have to make sure that she

13 was registered here at the facility if she was still

14 living here.

15 Q. I see. And if she was registered to vote

16 here at the facility, she could vote here in Perquimans

17 County; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MCKNIGHT: All right. I have no

20 further questions for Ms. Banks at this time.

21 MR. SHAPIRO: No further questions.

22 Thank you, Ms. Banks.

23 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.

24 This concludes the video deposition of Victoria Banks.

25 Time going off the record is 10:59 a.m.

62

1 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded

2 at 10:59 a.m.)

3

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63

1 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA AT LARGE, to wit:

2 I, Bria L. Bisignano, a Notary Public for the

3 State of North Carolina at Large, of qualification in

4 the County of Currituck, and whose commission expires

5 January 20, 2019, do hereby certify that the

6 within-named deponent, VICTORIA BANKS, appeared before

7 me at Hertford, North Carolina, as hereinbefore set

8 forth, and after being first duly sworn by me, was

9 thereupon examined upon her oath by counsel for the

10 parties; that her examination was recorded in Stenotype

11 by me and reduced to computer printout under my

12 direction; and that the foregoing constitutes a true,

13 accurate, and complete transcript of such proceedings.

14 I further certify that I am not related nor

15 otherwise associated with any counsel or party to this

16 proceeding, nor otherwise interested in the event

17 thereof.

18 Given under my hand and notarial seal this

19 April 21, 2015, at Hertford, North Carolina.

20

21

22 Bria L. Bisignano

23 #200902300105

24

25






64

A

a.m 4:6,10 45:2

45:5 61:25

62:2

able 11:2 14:15

16:11 18:12

21:6 22:24

23:6,7,16,19

23:23 24:3,8

24:15,16 28:19

28:19,21 29:2

29:6 34:17

43:2,7 46:21

47:13,22 48:25

51:17,20 56:16

56:19 57:19

58:13,14 59:13

absentee 37:7,9

37:10 39:23

42:3,14,15

43:6 48:23

49:3,10,16,22

49:23 50:6,8

50:13

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accurate 63:13

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Action 1:8,14,19

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46:4,6,8

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53:22

advice 56:10

affiliations

42:12

African-Amer...

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30:1 31:13,20

ago 25:25 27:24

39:6 42:6

50:24

agree 45:11

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agreement 4:5

al 1:6,10,12,15

1:21 4:13,15

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45:11

allowed 24:6,7

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32:2

AMERICA 1:17

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53:24 59:17

answered 29:11

52:15

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52:12

APPEARANC...

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12:1

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6:7

April 1:25 4:6

4:10 63:19

arrange 58:19

arrive 25:12

arrived 47:15

asked 9:25 16:6

28:9 29:10,23

30:2,9,18,21

31:7 32:4

50:17 52:14,20

60:25

asking 10:14

49:13 50:7,15

51:14 60:23

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42:13,19 48:2

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38:20 39:13,17

39:21 40:2,4

42:2,3,5,7,10

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55:14,17

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50:5

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AVENUE 2:5

Avner 2:8 4:22

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41:11

B

B 3:8

back 12:25

14:22 15:15

18:5,7,17

20:15 30:17

45:4,7 48:7

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backed 18:19

background 8:9

8:16 28:18

30:24 31:11

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bag 9:10

ballot 37:9,10

39:23 42:3,14

42:15 43:7

48:23 49:3,16

49:22,23

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49:10

Banks 1:23 3:3

4:2,11 5:5,9,10

5:16 9:16 11:5

11:12 13:9

14:25 22:22

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38:8,15,16,21

39:5,6,10 40:7

41:18 45:7,14

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52:23 61:8

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28:24

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59:15

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Bisignano 4:3

63:2,22

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56:14

Black 6:10

blind 29:2

Board 2:15 4:25

11:13,17 26:1

32:5,10,23,25

33:18 34:7

35:15 39:12

bother 34:20

bowling 9:10

break 19:5 45:8

Brenda 47:19

Bria 4:3 63:2,22

Brian 4:6 5:17

5:19 6:2,14

21:25 26:25

27:4 28:1 29:9

41:21 42:13

46:7,8 47:10

50:19 53:1

54:17,20

bring 19:6 33:12

34:25

building 15:16

business 53:12

button 13:3

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call 32:16 33:19

38:4,8,16

53:13

called 27:20

46:3 60:1

capacity 1:9

4:14 56:7

car 18:9

card 52:3,6

care 57:18,20

58:23

Carlene 59:21

Carolina 1:2,6

1:10,12,15,20

1:24 4:4,7,13

4:15,17 5:11

5:18 16:23

63:1,3,7,19

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cataracts 29:4

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causes 7:5

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5:19 6:2,7,14

21:25 26:25

27:4 28:1 29:9

41:21 46:7,8

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Central 17:20

47:6

certain 41:5,7

certificates

22:17

certify 63:5,14

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characterizing

30:17

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33:1

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42:1

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7:12

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Chowan 16:10

17:5,6,7 25:6,7

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church 26:11,17

circumstances

6:13 7:10,11

8:4

City 26:12

Civil 1:8,14,19

2:4

clean 49:7

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33:17

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16:6 20:11,14

33:20 42:12

48:6 53:9

54:17 59:25

60:4,7

comfortable

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coming 20:15

24:23 25:16

33:11 34:25

40:20

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common 7:17

community 26:8

26:13

company 27:6

27:20

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completing

42:15

complicated

23:12

composition 6:6

computer 63:11

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condition 7:20

57:21

conditions 7:14

53:16

Conference 1:6

4:13

confidential

44:8,18 45:13

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38:1

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contact 11:18

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copy 38:18

corn 9:10

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47:15,20 48:19

51:2 55:15

56:11,17 61:17

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16:24 17:9

18:23

counsel 2:9,15

4:5,19 63:9,15

count 23:3 25:2

29:20 31:17,19

31:21 52:19

counties 23:20

county 4:4 16:10

16:16,21,23

17:3,5,7 19:23

22:25 23:1,17

25:4,11 26:5

32:5,10 33:18

34:7,10 35:5

35:10 36:7

41:12,13 45:23

45:25 46:5

47:23 48:8

56:21,21 57:4

57:9 58:19

60:16 61:17

63:4

couple 27:10

52:21

course 7:25

court 1:1 4:16

4:20 31:3

37:21

courthouse

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15:4,24 17:10

17:25 18:1

21:3,7,17

32:22 33:2,4

33:22 34:13,16

34:22 36:7,24

46:17,19,25

47:2,11

cross-examina...

56:14

current 22:19

Currituck 4:5

63:4

D

D 3:1

D.C 2:6

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date 4:10

dates 35:1,4

55:23 56:1

day 10:8 11:6

12:5 24:9,18

32:11 33:4,24

33:25 34:18,18

34:19 36:9,24

46:14 57:2

60:7,8

deadlines 35:1,4

DEAKINS 2:11

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Defendants 1:11

1:16,22 4:25

26:1 37:25

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22:14 25:15

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53:11

depend 6:15

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deponent 3:2

12:18 31:5

51:3 53:23

59:3 63:6

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4:1,11 37:17

61:24 62:1

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37:15

described 21:1

28:11 47:6

DESCRIPTION

3:9

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14:23 19:3

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44:18

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41:1

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43:22

diabetes 7:15,17

7:21

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9:13 10:2,2

11:24 23:20,20

23:21 24:21

38:2 42:12

54:24,24,25

56:21

differently

23:10

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22:15 23:19

difficulties 7:6

8:7,8 28:10

difficulty 8:15

30:11,23 31:9

31:10

direct 40:6

48:15

direction 63:12

director 8:19,22

9:17 27:17

28:4 40:12

41:20 55:13

discharged

25:18

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district 1:1,2

4:16,16 46:3

46:22

districts 16:8

41:7

DIVISION 2:4

document 3:10

37:13 38:20

39:7,11,20,25

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42:18 50:20

Don 4:7 46:9

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18:17

driver 18:7

driver's 22:17

51:18 52:2,5

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driving 18:8

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drove 14:22

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Drug 7:7

due 29:6

duly 63:8

E

E 3:1,8

earlier 8:18 33:6




66

early 23:24 24:4

24:7,9,25 33:7

33:12 34:9,11

34:16

easier 21:5,11

22:23 23:3,4,4

23:8 24:11

49:17,23 50:16

50:21 51:6

61:2

easy 15:17 58:21

58:22

eating 7:12,22

economic 6:12

7:10,11 8:4

education 26:19

28:18 29:6

educational 6:12

8:8,16 30:24

31:10

effort 21:10,15

21:21 48:1

efforts 21:14

35:3

eight 5:15

either 12:16

36:11 52:11

61:7

elected 57:3

election 9:23

11:6,10,10,13

11:22 12:5,6

20:11,24 25:13

33:4,17,25

34:6,18,19

36:9,24 41:3

43:8 46:14

47:14,24 48:6

56:17,20,24

57:2 58:5,15

58:16 59:9,10

59:11,13 60:8

60:15 61:8,11

election's 40:20

elections 2:15

4:25 11:14,17

22:24 26:1

32:5,10,24

33:1,19 34:7

35:15 39:12

Elizabeth 26:12

employed 35:9,9

35:11

employment

55:23

enable 61:9

encountering

22:7

ends 6:22

engage 26:17

entails 53:8

55:16

ESQUIRE 2:8

2:14

et 1:6,10,12,15

1:21 4:13,15

eve 58:5

event 63:16

events 8:24 9:15

everybody 23:16

everyone's 22:15

evidence 42:22

50:5

exact 16:5 29:15

29:22 31:21

41:15 51:21

52:19 55:23

56:1

exactly 22:11

46:1 48:13

56:24

examination

1:23 4:2 5:3

40:6 48:15

63:10

examined 63:9

example 36:9

exercising 9:18

9:22

exhibit 37:13,16

38:13,21 39:6

41:18

exhibits 37:15

37:23 38:1

experience 6:11

31:22,23,24

32:1 50:18

56:4

experienced

37:9

experiences

42:23

expires 63:4

explore 43:5

expressed 34:15

40:23 44:6,9

expressing 12:1

extent 22:7

F

face 28:24

facilitate 23:5

facilities 39:21

42:13

facility 11:9

12:24 13:19

20:19 25:12,12

31:24 32:2

35:9,12 42:13

45:21 48:3,11

49:17,24 55:12

55:22 56:5

57:9 59:9

61:13,16

fact 37:17 38:2

47:13

factor 7:12

facts 42:21 50:5

fall 29:9

familiar 23:25

33:7 37:6 42:7

50:6,14

family 6:18

27:13 53:4

far 17:24,25

33:11 51:21

52:9,19

favorite 9:6

feature 50:8

feel 45:10

figure 54:10

filed 44:17

fill 53:2,4

finally 23:22

find 40:3 51:17

finding 21:17

22:10

finds 58:5

fine 44:18

finish 49:6

first 43:12,13

63:8

fitting 24:22

five 6:21 12:2

18:1 40:22,25

55:25

FL2 53:13,14

focus 39:1,2

folks 7:1,18 8:15

10:16 11:24

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foregoing 63:12

FORKS 2:12

form 55:5 57:5

58:7

former 22:17

forms 40:8

41:19,22 51:22

54:4

forth 63:8

frame 24:22,25

friends 27:13

front 12:7 15:24

full 5:7 45:9,12

45:12,15

further 25:22

55:8 61:20,21

63:14

future 40:16

42:18 43:2

G

games 9:9

Gates 26:5 36:7

general 31:24

47:14 59:10,12

60:16 61:7

generally 38:23

genetics 6:17

gentleman 44:15

getting 10:7

12:22

give 9:4 30:16

44:1

given 6:2 13:25

63:18

gives 8:25

go 9:21 12:8,22

13:3 15:1,3

16:9 17:14

18:13,15,16,18

19:8,15 20:5,7

20:9,13 22:18

22:18 23:2,18

23:20 24:15

32:19 33:22

34:11 36:4,7

36:22,23 44:24

48:16 55:16

57:14,15 58:19

60:1,3

goes 13:1,3

36:25

going 4:9 10:24

12:3 25:16

33:10,20 37:13

38:3,22 39:5

45:1,4,11 47:1

48:5,7,7 49:12

51:14 53:12

55:25 56:25

57:1,12,14,15

58:6 61:23,25

Goldsboro

37:16

good 5:5,6 6:8

14:8 38:10

52:25

gotten 7:23

Governor 1:9

4:15

grass 18:13,13

18:16

great 21:8

group 10:2

37:25 42:11

groups 9:2

guardian 42:4

guess 7:12 13:5

21:16 23:5

27:23 28:17

51:25 53:16,17

58:8

H

H 3:8

habits 7:12

hall 20:5 60:3

hand 53:10




67

63:18

handicapped

14:23,24 15:10

15:18 18:10

19:2

handles 53:12

happened 12:4

16:3 20:2

33:14

happening

16:13 25:14

happens 58:4,6

hard 22:10

30:16 51:19

head 12:18

53:23

health 53:16

hear 29:12

heard 20:24

23:24 27:13

33:9 39:16

42:9

help 6:19 11:10

14:16 15:20

16:1 18:6 43:7

helped 37:21

helper 13:10

helping 9:21

13:13 56:8

helps 9:3

Henry 45:16

hereinbefore

63:7

Hertford 1:24

4:7 5:17 14:20

15:4 16:14

24:16 27:1

45:24 46:9

63:7,19

hey 33:19

history 6:18

54:14

Hobbsville 5:11

26:3,7,9 35:18

hold 28:23

hole 9:10

home 5:20 6:14

6:22,23 7:5

11:15 22:8,24

27:5,11,18

28:5 39:22

48:7,8 56:25

57:1,12,14,15

57:16,18 58:6

homes 7:1 22:2

39:22 40:2

Hostess 27:6,20

28:2

house 27:12

Hunter 59:21,22

60:4,6,10

husband 36:18

I

I.D 20:12,20,23

21:24 22:19

48:15,20,23,25

49:4,9,15,22

50:12 51:1,5,9

51:12 52:1,13

52:24 53:21

54:5

I.D.s 22:4,8

51:17

idea 38:11

identification

22:16 51:23

52:2,6,21 53:7

identifies 53:19

identify 4:19

54:10

immediately

27:18

impossible

49:11

impression

33:10 56:3

include 9:17

indicates 42:1

42:11

individual 22:21

22:23

individually

10:3 51:15

individuals

10:19 11:25

12:10,11,17

15:10 20:19

21:2 55:14

information

11:15,19 22:12

32:6,10 33:12

34:6 35:14

41:19,23 44:4

51:20

informing 20:22

initial 38:6

initially 47:2

inside 15:25

19:9,14

intention 10:23

interest 12:1

34:15

interested 11:25

63:16

internal 44:8

interrupt 14:25

interrupted 15:9

involved 26:8,14

26:16 56:7

issue 7:17

issues 43:24

item 41:18

J

January 63:5

job 27:11,16

Jordan 12:12,14

16:10 17:2

19:15,23 25:4

43:11 47:19

48:2 56:15,15

56:19 57:3,8

57:12 58:4,14

58:16 59:7,8

59:14 60:11,14

60:14 61:6,9

Jordan's 56:23

57:21

jotted 10:1

Juan 4:7 46:9

JUSTICE 2:3

K

keep 43:19

51:20

keeping 37:22

keeps 9:2

kept 27:14

kind 8:25 9:24

9:25 10:4 13:1

15:23 18:6

29:19 35:2

53:2 56:1

57:18

kinds 7:5 9:5

knew 15:5 46:19

know 6:16,16,17

6:18 7:7 8:7,25

9:1,3,14,24,25

10:1,4,6,25

11:1 12:3,7

13:5 15:2,4

16:1,5 18:5,8

18:14 19:3

20:6,8,13 21:9

21:9,10,20,20

22:1,10,11,14

22:16,17 23:5

23:5 24:21,21

24:22,24,25

25:1,11 26:20

26:23 28:17,18

29:7,15 33:8

33:12,13 34:10

35:1,17 36:3,6

36:11,20,22,25

37:3,4,8,10,20

38:13 40:20

41:4,5,5,15,15

42:18 43:12,19

44:13 45:17,19

46:1,4,17

48:12,13,22

49:2,8 50:5

51:15,18,19,21

51:22,25 52:4

52:10,20,20

53:8,17,20,25

54:10,15,21,22

55:1,23,24

56:1 57:17

58:9,22,25

59:8,11,22

60:9

knowledge

11:12,18 45:20

L

L 63:2,22

label 38:13

lady 32:13

large 4:4 63:1,3

lawn 18:17

lead 9:22

LEAGUE 1:12

leaving 21:16

25:20

leg 58:2

legal 42:4

legs 57:25

library 9:9

license 22:18

51:18 52:2,5

53:11

life 6:16 8:1 9:1

9:3 24:10

lift 12:25 13:2

likelihood 57:11

limited 42:3

lines 30:22

liquidated 27:7

list 10:5

listed 41:18

listened 20:8

little 21:22 40:5

56:14

live 5:10,11

49:17,24 54:17

lived 26:2

lives 46:6

living 48:11

61:14

Lloyd 1:9 4:14

local 11:13

location 47:5,9

47:15

lock 13:2,5

locked 13:7

long 5:21 25:12

28:7 48:11

look 46:13,16,25

looked 36:13

looking 11:6

15:10 41:17

lot 7:16 22:9

23:4,8 24:10

25:15 52:7

love 9:8

lucky 14:14




68

M

ma'am 30:14

machine 19:1,5

machines 20:7

mail 39:23 42:15

mail-in 37:7

49:3,10,16,22

49:23

mailing 43:6

main 26:15

major 22:3

50:25

making 10:4

man 20:10 48:21

manager 5:25

managing 27:6

mark 37:13 39:5

marked 15:16

38:21

married 5:12

36:15

matter 4:12 26:1

44:14

matters 4:18 5:1

McCrory 1:9

4:14

McKnight 2:14

3:4 4:24,24

25:23,25 29:12

29:18 30:6,19

30:25 31:14

37:14,24 38:7

38:12,16,19,22

38:25 39:4

42:24 43:4

44:12,21 45:6

50:2,15,23

52:16 55:7

57:5 58:7 59:4

59:6,17 60:19

60:22 61:3,5

61:19

mean 28:12,14

28:16,22,25

29:15,25 30:15

32:1 34:21

37:9 41:15

43:18,25 44:23

46:2 51:16

52:1

Medicaid 54:23

55:4

medical 7:14,22

54:14

meetings 10:2

10:11

member 53:5

members 33:16

mentioned 8:18

16:13 17:16

43:10 54:4,6

met 25:25

Michael 2:14

4:24

middle 1:2 4:16

45:18

Mike 25:24

mind 12:9 29:13

minute 42:6

minutes 16:5,6

18:2 19:5

21:20

Mischaracteri...

52:15

Mischaracteri...

60:20

misstates 30:4,5

moment 25:25

39:6 50:24

months 5:23

27:1 40:14

50:18

morning 5:5,6

move 21:19 53:2

Multipartisan

3:10 38:20

39:13,17,21

42:5,7,10

N

N 3:1

N.W 2:5

NAACP 1:6

4:13

name 5:7 25:24

32:14 38:8

43:13 45:10,12

45:12,15,18

54:13

names 10:1,20

10:24 11:24

12:10 43:12

NASH 2:11

NC 2:13

near 42:4

need 20:23

22:12 36:4,6

39:2 41:9,12

42:16 46:22

48:19,23 51:13

52:13

needed 35:17

47:1,5 51:9

neighboring

17:3 25:4,11

never 36:13 42:9

new 55:13 61:2

61:3

nodded 51:3

North 1:2,6,10

1:12,15,20,24

4:4,7,12,15,16

5:11,18 16:23

63:1,3,7,19

Northeast 16:22

notarial 63:18

Notary 4:3 63:2

November 9:23

47:14,24

number 4:17

10:13 23:13

50:17 51:21

52:9 53:18

54:7 55:22

numbering

37:25

nursing 5:20

6:14,22,23 7:1

7:5 11:15

20:19 22:2,8

22:24 27:11,18

28:5 39:22,22

40:2 49:17,24

53:11 57:9

O

oath 63:9

Object 57:5 58:7

objection 29:10

30:4,16 42:20

42:21 50:1,3

52:14 58:12

59:15 60:18,19

observed 31:17

31:18

obtain 22:19

51:1

occasions 10:13

office 53:12

official 1:9 4:14

OGLETREE

2:11

Oh 17:22

okay 5:16,21 6:1

6:6,11 7:4,17

8:12,18 9:7,12

9:16,21 10:10

11:3,5,8,12

12:4,9,13,16

12:22 13:11,24

14:14,21 15:6

15:21 17:8,16

17:24 18:3

19:11,13 20:2

20:16 21:23,23

23:11 25:17

26:7,11,17,24

27:8,22,25

28:3,9 29:7

32:9 33:3,6

35:21 36:20

37:2,12 39:10

40:11,18 42:1

42:10 43:18

44:21 45:20

46:8,16 47:4,9

47:13,18,22

48:1,10,22

51:8,22 52:11

55:7,10,19

56:13 57:11

58:4 59:1,3,20

60:3,10,22

old 5:15 7:2

ones 8:15

open 12:25

opinion 21:23

22:22 49:14

50:16,18

opposed 24:6

44:9

opted 19:12

Oral 1:23 4:1

order 17:14 23:2

41:8,11 42:18

48:19 49:9,15

49:22 53:21

54:5,17 61:9

Outlet 27:7 28:2

outreach 26:18

outside 18:24

19:1,6,6

P

page 3:2,9 39:1

39:13,25

paper 28:24

48:25

paperwork

34:25 53:3,6

53:15

park 18:11 19:4

parking 15:17

18:10 19:3

part 41:17 44:7

45:13 53:6

participate

26:21

particular 23:2

23:18 34:4

35:23 44:5,7

50:8

particularly 7:2

23:12

parties 9:14,14

63:10

party 42:12 53:5

63:15

Pasquotank

45:23

Patrick 1:9 4:14

pay 54:20

paying 54:25

PENNSYLVA...

2:5

people 6:23,24

6:25 7:22

11:10 13:24

14:9 18:14

22:7 25:16




69

34:11 42:11

49:17,24 51:21

54:24 56:8

percent 6:21

percentage 55:1

performed

29:19

period 24:4,9

Perquimans

16:16,18,20,21

16:23,25 34:10

35:5 41:12,13

45:25 46:5

61:16

person 25:1

32:19 41:12

53:19 54:10

person's 6:12

44:13,14 53:15

personal 22:15

photo 20:20,23

21:24 22:8

48:15,20,23,25

49:4,9,15,22

51:1,5,9,12,23

52:13 53:21

phrase 23:9

piece 28:23

48:25

place 15:5,10,16

18:18,24 21:19

23:7,8 24:18

24:23 48:16

58:24

places 23:21

38:3

Plaintiff 1:18

37:25

Plaintiffs 1:7,13

4:12

plan 8:24 56:23

play 6:13 9:11

please 4:19 5:7

30:19,19

point 52:25

poll 20:18

polling 17:14,17

19:16 20:17

23:18

polls 13:15

48:21

Poor 7:12

position 5:24

8:19 13:6

27:14 50:14

possible 43:20

61:1

precinct 23:1,2

24:15 36:8,23

46:2,13,22

precincts 23:21

41:7

precisely 17:19

prepare 10:25

prepared 10:7

pretty 6:8 10:8

prevent 28:18

previous 52:15

previously 28:4

primary 60:15

61:7

printout 63:11

probably 16:4

18:1 19:4

21:21,21 38:4

38:25

problems 28:20

proceeding

63:16

proceedings

63:13

process 34:5,10

37:6 44:16

50:7,8,10

pronounce

16:19

proper 11:2 22:4

57:18,20

properly 13:6

41:2

protected 43:19

provide 11:14

11:19 40:2

43:1,16 44:4

45:9,11,14

52:22 54:7

provided 32:6

40:4,7 41:22

42:2,23

providing 41:18

public 4:3 44:15

63:2

purposes 44:4,8

push 13:3

Q

qualification

63:3

qualified 22:25

23:17

quality 9:1

question 29:14

30:5,17,18

31:2,4,5,7

42:25 43:17,22

44:5 49:7,19

50:21 52:17

60:25 61:2,4

questions 25:22

28:10 34:4

38:23 50:17

55:8,10 59:5

61:20,21

R

race 8:14 29:24

30:2,10,22

31:8,9,20

racial 6:6

railroad 17:21

raises 52:25

RALEIGH 2:13

rang 15:23

read 28:15,15,19

28:19,21,22,23

29:6 30:17

31:4,5

reading 8:7,8,16

28:11,12,14

30:11,23 31:10

ready 11:9 20:15

really 36:25 37:8

52:12

reason 34:2

35:23 47:1

receive 34:6

54:22 55:4

Recess 45:3

recollect 60:12

record 4:9,20

5:8 32:15

42:21 44:15,24

45:1,5,8 58:12

61:23,25

recorded 63:10

records 16:8

46:18,20 51:18

redirect 59:16

reduced 63:11

refer 60:24

referencing 39:1

referring 31:25

register 24:4,8,8

24:17 57:4

registered 16:7

16:10,25 17:3

17:10 19:23

36:1 41:3,9,13

44:14 45:21,22

45:24 46:5,22

47:23 56:21

57:8 61:13,15

registering

33:13 40:9

48:2

registration

26:18 40:8

43:23

relate 50:12

related 4:17

63:14

relationship 7:9

7:21 8:3

relative 42:4

relevant 42:22

43:17,22

repeat 30:13

49:19

rephrase 50:20

57:7 58:11

reporter 4:20

31:4

reporters 37:21

represent 4:25

25:25 39:10

representing

4:23

requesting 42:2

42:14

require 51:5

required 49:3,9

49:15,21 53:21

54:2

requirement

21:25 48:15

requirements

11:19 50:11,12

resident 18:20

28:14,15 53:1

53:9,20 54:5,6

54:16 59:8,12

residents 6:1 7:3

8:6 9:18,22,25

10:9,11 20:22

21:25 22:1

23:22 24:3,8

24:10 28:10,17

29:2,7,24 30:2

30:10 31:20

34:15 39:23

40:2,4,8,19,22

40:25 42:19

43:2,6,19

47:18 51:1,6,8

51:10,11 52:4

52:21 54:20

55:2 57:13

58:23

respect 37:24

48:10 51:8

60:13

response 30:1,12

31:1

responsibilities

8:23 9:17

55:14

responsible 53:5

restate 60:25

right 8:20 9:18

9:22 10:17,18

10:21 12:14

16:1,17 17:3

17:23 19:25

22:20 23:15

24:15 25:2,5

25:15,19 27:1

28:5 36:10,16

37:17,19 38:17

40:20,23 45:7

46:10 47:7,16




70

47:24 48:16,20

54:8 56:18

57:21 59:1

60:12,13,17

61:6,19

rights 2:4 43:19

ring 15:19

road 2:12 4:7

17:23 46:9

role 6:11

room 20:5

roughly 6:1

17:25

rules 11:19

24:21 33:8

35:1,4 41:6,16

50:11,12

S

S 3:8

saved 21:10

saying 12:2 15:9

16:24 52:1

56:1

says 39:13

schedule 8:24

school 16:9

17:17,19 18:10

18:21,22,24

19:18,20,25

20:3,4 21:4,4

21:17 47:6,8

47:10,12,16

scope 59:16

seal 44:4,18

63:18

season 20:15

seating 11:2

second 38:24

44:25

Security 53:18

54:7

see 7:15,16

28:24 29:3,3

32:19 34:20

39:14 48:24,25

56:3 61:15

seen 33:18 39:7

53:9

sense 9:4 38:4

September

55:13

set 20:7 57:17

63:7

settings 10:2

seven 14:1,2

29:16

Shapiro 2:8 3:3

4:22,22 5:4

25:21 28:9,13

29:10,23 30:2

30:4,9,15,21

31:3,7 32:4

37:19 38:6,10

38:15,18,24

39:3 42:20

44:3,19,22

45:8 48:14

50:1,4 52:14

55:9 57:6

58:10 59:1,15

59:19 60:18,20

60:24 61:21

Shapiro's 40:6

shook 12:18

53:23

shortly 58:15

show 37:12 49:3

49:9,15,21

53:7,21 54:2,5

54:16

showed 12:8,11

32:21 33:11

showing 23:13

shows 25:10

significant 23:13

signing 53:12

similar 9:11

similarly 22:1

site 17:11,14,17

19:16 20:17

36:23

sites 23:18

situated 22:2

six 2:12 5:23

12:2 27:1

40:14,22,25

50:18

Skinner 12:12

12:13 16:9,24

17:9 19:15,21

19:22,24 20:3

21:3,5 43:11

45:16,17,21

46:12,24 47:13

48:10

Skinner's 43:13

43:23 45:9,15

slowly 28:15,23

SMOAK 2:11

social 35:6,8,13

53:18 54:7

55:15,19,21

socialization 9:2

socials 9:14

son 5:15

sorry 30:15

sort 10:13 26:8

26:18 49:4

53:7

space 15:17

speaking 59:7

special 13:17

specific 36:23

specifically 6:25

21:3 28:12

29:8 40:1

43:11

speculating

51:15

speech 20:8

split 6:8,9

spoke 15:25 35:6

48:4,14 55:15

55:19

spot 14:23 18:4

18:9,11 19:3

39:2

staff 33:16

stand 15:19

standing 20:10

start 37:16

starting 49:10

state 1:6,15,20

2:15 4:4,13,25

5:7 26:1 39:12

63:1,3

state-issued 52:2

52:6

stated 48:5 50:6

59:24 61:11

States 1:1,17,24

2:3,9 4:3,16,23

stating 53:15

status 43:23

44:13

stay 54:20

stayed 19:24

staying 27:5

Stenotype 63:10

STEWART

2:11

stimulates 9:1

stint 27:25

street 18:6,7

stretcher 53:10

strike 19:14

23:23 30:7

55:20 58:13

suggesting 44:20

SUITE 2:12

suppose 32:25

41:14

supposed 16:9

21:18

sure 10:5 13:6

22:11 34:13

38:19 41:2

44:12,16 49:20

51:25 57:13

58:12 61:3,12

surgeries 29:4

suspect 44:23,23

swear 4:20

sworn 63:8

T

T 3:8

tabs 37:22

take 19:5 34:14

46:24 47:19

58:23 60:16

taken 1:24 4:2,5

4:12 14:10

talk 33:20 57:14

talked 40:5 42:6

43:24 44:15

talking 45:9

talks 39:20 40:1

Team 39:17 42:5

42:8,11

Teams 3:10

38:20 39:13,21

telephone 32:17

tell 20:9 39:19

57:16

telling 11:23

27:14

term 42:9

terms 22:5,6,6

testified 33:6

50:24 60:14

testimony 42:22

52:15 60:21

thank 25:21

39:3 59:1

61:22

thereof 63:17

they'd 34:22

thing 13:1 25:13

35:2 56:2

57:18

things 6:17,19

7:4,7,13 9:8,9

20:6 27:10

29:5 31:18

51:18 56:4,11

57:17

think 8:17 17:16

17:20 26:2

27:19 28:11

29:24 31:12,15

31:16 34:12

37:14,16 38:1

38:4,10 42:6

43:11,17,21

44:2,10,22

46:9 49:11

50:4 51:10,12

51:16 54:4,6

55:7 61:4

thinking 10:7

34:9

third 39:1

thought 15:3

34:17 43:7

50:25

three 28:8 39:25

time 4:10 6:2

10:6 13:25




71

14:6 20:13

21:10,14,21

22:10 24:17,22

24:25 25:22

30:16 35:7

38:3 45:2,5

47:23 48:6

55:8 57:2 60:1

61:10,11,20,25

times 55:24

title 42:11

today 32:3 43:24

Today's 4:10

told 17:13 19:7

20:16,18 33:14

33:15 41:1

48:21 50:9

56:14

top 39:12

toss 9:10

town 24:24

tracking 22:15

tracks 17:21

transcript 44:7

45:13 63:13

transport 13:25

transportation

11:1

transported

21:2

transporting

13:15

trips 9:8 14:11

14:12

trouble 21:21

28:11,14

true 34:20 63:12

try 50:20 60:25

trying 44:10

turn 20:5

turned 56:10

two 12:8,10,11

12:16 14:3,4,5

14:9,15 21:2

23:14 43:10

type 22:17 25:13

33:12 51:20

54:16

types 7:4 40:1,3

typically 9:5

U

ultimately 40:22

Um-hmm10:12

10:15 12:15

13:23 14:7

16:15 18:22

21:12 22:13

24:5,19 25:9

34:1 58:3

unable 29:6

52:22 59:22

uncommon

25:10

understand

10:10 16:23

18:23 43:21

49:1,12 50:10

50:22 56:16

understanding

20:18 37:23

48:18 49:8

understood 17:9

undertaking

22:3 50:25

United 1:1,17,24

2:3,9 4:3,15,23

unload 18:20

21:19

use 7:7 49:2

usually 6:22

V

v 1:8,14,19 4:13

valid 20:12,20

20:23 22:8,19

52:1,1

van 12:23,24

13:4,17,19,20

13:24 14:16,19

18:6,7,8 19:24

21:2,19

variety 50:11

vehicle 11:4

verify 35:14

versus 31:20

55:4

Victoria 1:23

3:3 4:2,11 5:9

61:24 63:6

video 4:11 61:24

VIDEOGRAP...

4:9 45:1,4

61:23

Videotaped 1:23

4:1

vision 28:20

voice 6:20

vote 9:19,25

10:4,9,16,20

11:1,10 12:3,8

15:4,7,13 16:7

16:11 17:14

18:24 19:6,8

20:3,13,20,24

21:4,6 22:25

23:1,3,7,17,21

24:4,7,9,16

25:1,2 32:11

33:22 34:11,22

34:22 35:18,19

35:20,21,24

36:1,3,4,8,9,18

37:1,3 40:9,23

41:1,3,9,9,11

41:13 43:2,6,8

44:14 45:21,22

45:24 46:5,12

46:23,25 47:1

47:3,5,5,14,19

47:22 48:2,19

48:23 49:9,15

49:16,18,22,25

51:4,6,10,13

51:23 52:13

56:8,16,19

58:6,8,17,18

58:20 59:9,12

59:13,23,25

60:4,7,17 61:9

61:12,15,16

voted 46:13

55:15 56:20

voter 23:17

26:18,18,19

40:8 41:19

43:23 51:23

voter's 44:13

voters 1:12

14:24 23:13

42:4,13 43:10

43:12 48:19,22

49:2,8,14,21

55:17

votes 20:6 36:20

36:24

voting 10:6

11:15,20,25

12:1 15:3

17:10 20:14,15

21:24 23:25

24:4,7,9,17,25

32:6,10 33:7

33:24 34:5,9

34:16,16 35:5

35:14 37:7

39:23 41:23

42:14,19 44:16

50:7,13,16

58:15,24 60:2

W

walk 12:17

want 9:4 10:16

20:19,23 39:7

40:3 58:12

60:7,24 61:1

61:11

wanted 9:25

10:4,20 18:15

19:8 36:3,9

39:24 43:18

59:9,12,25

60:4

wants 58:6,16

58:18

WASHINGT...

2:6

wasn't 16:11

19:2 56:19

way 11:18 16:18

36:11 45:10

50:21 51:4

52:11

ways 43:5 54:25

we'll 38:8,16

39:1 55:11

58:19

we're 32:2 45:7

45:11

we've 43:24

44:15

website 39:12

went 9:24 15:7

15:15,24,24

18:10 19:13,14

19:20,24 20:3

20:4,4 27:11

32:11 33:3

37:3,5

wheel 13:1,4

18:15,19

wheelchair 14:9

57:23

wheelchairs

12:20 14:3,4,5

14:10 18:12,16

wheels 13:7

white 6:10

willing 43:5

wit 63:1

within-named

63:6

witness 4:21

37:17

witnesses 38:2

WOMEN 1:12

wonder 27:6

28:2 44:3

work 5:16,17

12:23 27:4,9

28:7 44:21

57:19

worked 5:21

27:5,19 28:4,4

worker 20:18

35:7,8,13

55:15,19,21

working 26:25

27:11

worry 24:20

worth 21:22

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29:13 51:17

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write 10:20

38:14

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72

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Z

0

1

1 3:10 37:13,16

38:8,15,17,21

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4:17

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1:14

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1:19

10 8:10 16:5

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15 19:5

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20 19:5 63:5

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SANDRA BEATTY May 18, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

1





)

Plaintiffs, )

)


) 1:13-CV-658

PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )


of North Carolina, et al., )

)

Defendants. )

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF NORTH )

CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

v. ) 1:13-CV-660

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )

)

Defendants. )

)


)

Plaintiff, )

)

v. ) 1:13-CV-861

)

THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, et al. )

)

Defendants )

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SANDRA BEATTY

________________________________________________

11:00 A.M.

MONDAY, MAY 18, 2015

________________________________________________

355 BEASLEY DRIVE, F6

GREENVILLE, NORTH CAROLINA 27834

By: Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2 For the Plaintiff League of Women Voters:3 American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina

BY: Christopher Brook, Esquire4 Post Office Box 28004

Raleigh, North Carolina 276115 (919) 834-3466

[email protected]

For the Defendant North Carolina State Board of7 Elections:8 Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C.

BY: Michael D. McKnight, Esquire9 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100

Raleigh, North Carolina 2760910 (919) 787-9700

[email protected]

12 Videographer: Brent Troublefield13 --oOo--14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2 WITNESS: PAGE3 SANDRA BEATTY4 Examination by Mr. Brook 55 Examination by Ms. Murphy 216 Examination by Mr. Brook 277 Examination by Ms. Murphy 298

9 --oOo--10

11 INDEX OF EXHIBITS12 (No exhibits were marked)13

14

--oOo--15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

4


2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at

3 10:57 a.m. Today's date is May 18th, 2015.

4 This is the videotaped deposition of

5 Sandra Beatty, taken in the matter of the North

6 Carolina State Conference of the NAACP, et al.,

7 plaintiffs, versus Patrick Lloyd McCrory, in his

8 official capacity as the Governor of North

9 Carolina, et al., United States District Court

10 with the Middle District of North Carolina. Case

11 number 1:13-CV-658 and all related matters.

12 Would counsel now please introduce

13 themselves.

14 MR. BROOK: Chris Brook from ACLU of

15 North Carolina for the League of Women Voter

16 plaintiffs.

17 MS. MURPHY: And Kathy Murphy with the

18 North Carolina Attorney General's Office for the

19 defendants.

20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: And would the court

21 reporter please swear in the witness.

22 SANDRA BEATTY,

23 having been first sworn or affirmed by the court

24 reporter and Notary Public to tell the truth, the

25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 follows:

2 EXAMINATION

3 BY MR. BROOK:

4 Q. Ms. Beatty, my name is Chris Brook. I'm an

5 attorney at the ACLU of North Carolina, and I am

6 one of many legal counsels for the plaintiffs in

7 this case, particularly the League of Women Voter

8 plaintiffs.

9 Have you ever been deposed before,

10 Ms. Beatty?

11 A. I don't know. What does that mean?

12 Q. Have you ever gone through a deposition before?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Let me just tell you a little bit about

15 how this is going to operate.

16 So we have a court reporter and a

17 videographer here, just to capture what you are

18 saying, what questions I am asking you, and what

19 questions Ms. Murphy is going to ask you in a few

20 moments. If, at any time, you need to take a

21 break for wherever reason, please just let us

22 know, and we're happy to accommodate you in

23 regards to that.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If, at any point, you don't understand a question

6

1 that I ask, or that Ms. Murphy asks, please just

2 ask us to -- to restate the question. Knowing

3 myself, I will ask two or three questions that

4 make sense to no one but me. So please feel free

5 to set me straight in regards to that --

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. -- and ask me to take another pass at it.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. We'd ask you -- you know, if you're like me,

10 in -- in response to a lot of questions, you'll

11 just nod your head or shake your head or say

12 "uh-huh." If you can try to avoid doing that --

13 it's a natural thing to do. But if you --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- could say "yes" or "no" --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- and then sort of go into answer the question,

18 that would be great.

19 It might be a chance -- maybe we can

20 avoid this, who knows -- that Ms. Murphy might

21 object to a question that I ask.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I might object to a question she asks. If you'll

24 just wait for us to state the basis for the

25 objection and then, typically, you're going to be

7

1 able to go ahead and answer the question that's

2 been asked. And us attorneys will sort out those

3 objections on down the line.

4 Does that make sense?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Could you state your name for the record,

7 ma'am?

8 A. Sandra Beatty.

9 Q. Okay. And what is your address?

10 A. 355 Beasley Drive, Apartment F-6, Greenville,

11 North Carolina, 27834.

12 Q. Okay. How long have you lived in North Carolina?

13 A. Three-and-a-half years.

14 Q. Okay. When did you move down to North Carolina?

15 A. September 21st, 2011.

16 Q. Okay. Where did you live prior to moving to

17 North Carolina?

18 A. Yonkers, New York.

19 Q. Okay. Did -- and how old are you?

20 A. 51.

21 Q. Did you live in Yonkers your entire life --

22 A. No.

23 Q. -- prior to that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. Did you live in New York State your entire

8

1 life prior to moving to North Carolina?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And did you move from Yonkers to this

4 address here in Greenville, North Carolina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. So you've lived at 355 Beasley Drive, F-6,

7 since September 2011?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you first registered

10 to vote, Ms. Beasley?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When -- when was that?

13 A. I was 18 years old.

14 Q. Okay. So --

15 A. Back in the '80s.

16 Q. Back in the '80s? Back in the early '80s?

17 A. In the '80s, yes.

18 Q. Okay. So if you -- did you -- did you register

19 when you turned 18?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. So did that -- would that mean that you

22 registered in 1982?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And you were registered -- when you

25 registered in 1982, you registered in New York?




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And did you remain registered to vote the

3 entire time that you lived in New York prior to

4 moving to North Carolina?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. How regularly, when you lived in New York

7 State, would you say that you voted?

8 A. I want to say 90 percent.

9 Q. Okay. Why -- why -- why did you vote?

10 A. I had young kids, so I was very interested in the

11 school elections. The mayoral elections as well.

12 And I tried to stay on top of them. And who --

13 my kids are going to school, so I needed to know

14 who was in the -- who was on the board at all

15 times.

16 Q. Okay. That makes lots of sense to me.

17 Any -- any more general reasons why you

18 were interested in voting?

19 A. I just wanted my vote to count, because if I had

20 any complaints, I could say at least I did vote,

21 opposed to me complaining and not voting. So at

22 least I know I had that right to complain if

23 something did happen.

24 Q. Okay. Do you recollect when you first attempted

25 to vote here in North Carolina?

10

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. When -- when was that?

3 A. That was October 31st, 2014.

4 Q. So during the recent 2014 elections?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about what

7 your -- what happened on October 31st, 2014?

8 A. Oh, I was -- I was shopping with my daughter,

9 Jacqueline, and one of my friends, George. He's

10 also handicapped as well. And he said, "Oh.

11 Lets go" -- he said, "Let me go vote."

12 I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, I'll

13 try, too." I mean, why not?

14 So we pulled up. And some people were

15 standing out there. And they said, "We have

16 curbside voting."

17 I was like, oh. Great. I don't have to

18 stand in line, you know, because I am a double

19 amputee, so it's a little pressure on me. And --

20 Q. Can -- can I stop you right there --

21 A. Sure.

22 Q. -- for just a -- one moment and I'll -- I'll let

23 you get back to it.

24 You referenced just a moment ago that

25 you're handicapped.

11

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you referenced that you're a double

3 amputee. Can you just go through the

4 disabilities that you have, really quickly, for

5 the record?

6 A. Okay. I'm a double amputee. I became a double

7 amputee 2011. And I'm also legally blind. So

8 I'm unable to -- I have low vision.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. The doctor prescribed me as having low vision.

11 So I'm unable to read and go through everything,

12 tasks. It's a little bit difficult for me --

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. -- to, you know...

15 Q. So I interrupted you. And you were talking about

16 going up to curbside --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- on October 31st of 2014.

19 A. Yes. We went up to curb --

20 Q. Can you -- can you tell me what happened --

21 A. Sure.

22 Q. -- then?

23 A. Nice people. They gave me some pamphlets, which

24 I couldn't read. But my daughter was with us, so

25 they said, "You can just vote in here, curbside."

12

1 And they came out to the car. The guy

2 came out to the car with the ballots. I wasn't

3 able to read them, so my daughter, she was able

4 to.

5 I -- I'm not registered to vote here. I

6 thought I was, but I'm not registered to vote

7 here. And I don't have a North Carolina ID. So

8 I wasn't able. But he said I can still cast a

9 vote. So I said, okay.

10 I mean, I have a New York State ID; I

11 don't have a North Carolina ID. But he still

12 tried to help me vote.

13 They came out. They -- my daughter was

14 able -- because it was a secret ballot. So she

15 was able to pick -- pick out the candidates.

16 He ran -- he ran back inside. He ran

17 everything back inside for me. So he was more of

18 a footman that did all of my walking, I guess,

19 for me because I'm unable to walk like that. And

20 my daughter was able to fill out the paperwork

21 part because I can't see that well.

22 Q. Okay. So I want to just dig back into something

23 you just said --

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 Q. -- Ms. Beatty.




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 A. Uh-huh.

2 Q. So when you showed up for curbside voting on

3 October 31st, 2014 --

4 A. Uh-huh.

5 Q. -- the voting officials you interacted with

6 indicated to you that you were not registered to

7 vote?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. What kind of ballot did you cast on

10 October 31st, 2014? Do you know?

11 A. It was a paper -- a paper ballot.

12 Q. Were you told whether your ballot was going to

13 count on that day by the election officials?

14 A. Yes. He told me it would count. He told me I

15 was okay. And they gave me, also, a paper to get

16 an ID.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Just -- he said I can get just a voting ID.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. But he told me my paper would -- I thought it

21 counted.

22 Q. Okay. Did he mention anything about it being a

23 provisional ballot to you on -- on that day when

24 you were at curbside?

25 A. I don't recall.

14

1 Q. Okay. Do you remember filling out a voter

2 registration form on October 31st, 2014?

3 A. No. My daughter would have filled it out for me

4 at the time.

5 Q. Okay.


7 Q. Do you recollect having to register to vote on

8 that day?

9 A. No. He had -- he was able to give me my address.

10 So I assumed that with him having my name and

11 address, that he had me registered already. I

12 wasn't aware I wasn't registered.

13 Q. Okay. Did you learn after the fact --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- after the election, that you weren't

16 registered?

17 A. Actually, I learned when I got a phone call from

18 the Southern Coalition stating that my vote

19 didn't count.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. I -- I thought it did. No one ever told me that

22 it didn't until I got the call from the Southern

23 Coalition.

24 Q. Okay. I want to go back to the conversation we

25 were having a little bit earlier about the

15

1 disabilities that you have, Ms. Beatty.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You -- you referenced briefly that just being

4 challenging to carrying out sort of every day

5 responsibilities that you have. Can you tell me

6 about some of the challenges that your disability

7 poses?

8 A. It takes away a lot of my independence and my

9 privacy. I not able -- I'm not able to go

10 anywhere without someone. I have to have

11 someone, you know, at all times to go out due to

12 my vision and my lack of mobility. It also takes

13 away from my privacy. I have to have someone

14 read my mail to me. My financial statements have

15 to be read to me. So it takes away -- it takes

16 away a lot of that.

17 As far as a daily task of it's just

18 cleaning and cooking, it -- it takes away -- it's

19 a task. It's a task.

20 Q. Do you -- do you drive?

21 A. No longer. I --

22 Q. Okay.

23 A. -- sold my car. I can't drive anymore.

24 Q. Why can't you drive anymore?

25 A. My vision. I cannot see.

16

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. I will tear up North Carolina.

3 MS. MURPHY: Thank you for not driving.

4 Q. Ms. Beatty, some of us have 20/20 vision and do

5 the same thing with their cars. So...

6 Do you have -- did you have a driver's

7 license when you lived in New York State?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you have a driver's license in North Carolina?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. And I presume you don't have -- why don't

12 you have a driver's license down here?

13 A. Because I can't drive down here. I can't see.

14 Q. Okay. You said earlier you got a ride to the

15 polls from your friend George --

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. -- in October.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you often get rides -- get rides places from

20 George?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Do you have to rely on other people --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- to get rides places?

25 A. Yes.




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 Q. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about how

2 that impacts your life?

3 A. Take, for instance, tonight. My son has -- I

4 have a 13-year-old son. He has a concert at the

5 school tonight. He's play -- plays in a band. I

6 am unable to actually -- not so much take --

7 well, I can't really get in a cab and ride with

8 him. It's hard for me to even see the curb on a

9 sidewalk. So when he gets out, it's going to be

10 dark outside. I can't chance myself falling. So

11 it's -- it's a difficult task for me. It's very

12 difficult.

13 Q. So, for example, with the concert that you're

14 going to, your son's concert this evening --

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. -- are you going to go with someone else to that?

17 A. I'm probably going to send my daughter. I

18 probably won't be able to go.

19 Q. Okay. Is it difficult to travel outside of your

20 house without being accompanied by somebody?

21 A. Very difficult.

22 Q. Okay. Do you -- how often do you do that, travel

23 by yourself --

24 A. Travel with someone?

25 Q. Or travel by yourself outside the house.

18

1 A. No time. No times.

2 Q. Do you have a North Carolina photo identification?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. Did you discuss that at all with the folks

5 that you talked with at curbside on October 31st,

6 2014?

7 A. Yes. They told me -- they gave me a paper, a

8 form, and they said I take it to the DMV, and I

9 can get either just a photo ID or I can get one

10 just for voting. And they told me the one for

11 voting, there was no charge. And then the

12 regular one for the state ID was a charge, which,

13 you know, was a small amount. But I haven't made

14 it down there yet. So...

15 Q. When you say "haven't made it down there yet,"

16 where -- where -- where are you planning on

17 going?

18 A. I haven't made -- I haven't made it to the

19 motor -- the motor vehicle --

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. -- to get my ID.

22 Q. All right. And to get down to the motor -- DMV

23 office to get your ID, based on what you told me

24 previously, would you have to travel with

25 somebody else?

19

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And you would be dependent upon someone

3 else's ability to transport you down there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Are you aware that North Carolina had --

6 do you know what same-day registration is?

7 A. I have an idea.

8 Q. What's your idea?

9 A. You can register and -- and your vote will count,

10 your vote will count that same day.

11 Q. Are you aware -- that's -- that's pretty much it.

12 Are you aware that North Carolina had

13 same-day registration in the early voting

14 period --

15 A. No.

16 Q. -- prior to the passage of House Bill 589?

17 MS. MURPHY: Objection to relevance.

18 But you can answer.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Would you have used same-day registration

21 to vote when you showed up at curbside on

22 October 31st, 2014, if that had been an option?

23 MS. MURPHY: Objection. Calls for

24 speculation.

25 You can answer.

20

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How do you feel about the fact that the ballot

3 you cast on October 31st, 2014, did not count?

4 A. It hurt. It hurt because I thought I was doing

5 something. I -- I thought I was making some kind

6 of progress and doing something. And it didn't

7 count. That hurt me.

8 Q. How do you feel about the same-day registration

9 opportunity being taken away from folks who are

10 in your position who have disabilities?

11 MS. MURPHY: Objection to form.

12 Objection to the -- calls for speculation.

13 You can answer.

14 A. Disappointment.

15 Q. What do you mean by "disappointment"?

16 A. If I have the option to register and vote the

17 same day, and due to the fact that I'm handicap

18 and I can't run back and forth to register to

19 vote, it would be a blessing if I was able to do

20 it the same day and vote the same day.

21 Q. Why would it be a blessing, you know, for you to

22 be able to do it all at one time?

23 A. Because I'm not able to call up on -- I mean,

24 when I go out, I have to have somebody with me,

25 and sometimes people are not available at your




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 beck and call. You know, I have to go at

2 their -- when they -- when they can take me. You

3 know what I'm saying? I -- it's on their --

4 their time. I'm working on everyone else's time

5 when I'm getting a ride with someone else.

6 Q. And are there occasions where you've sought

7 transportation through someone else and you've

8 not been able to arrange it?

9 A. I've sought transportation through my -- through

10 George. And say, for instance, I -- and it just

11 happened recently, too. I had a doctor's

12 appointment, and I had called him a couple of

13 days ahead of time. And I called him the night

14 before. And he still forgot about me. So...

15 Q. And what happened to your doctor's appointment

16 that day?

17 A. I had to reschedule.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And it took another -- it was another month

20 before I can go.

21 MR. BROOK: Those -- those are all the

22 questions that -- that we have at this point.

23 EXAMINATION

24 BY MS. MURPHY:

25 Q. Okay. Ms. Beatty --

22

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- how did you come to lose your legs?

3 A. Diabetes.

4 Q. And also your vision? Is that the same reason

5 for your vision loss?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You -- I believe you testified you moved to North

8 Carolina in 2011; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Why did you move to North Carolina?

11 A. My son had attended Shaw University in Raleigh.

12 And I was looking for -- I quit working

13 February 2010. And I was living in an apartment,

14 a walk-up, and I lived on the fourth floor. I

15 had just lost my left leg. So it was kind of a

16 task. It was beginning to become a task to walk

17 up and down those stairs --

18 Q. Uh-huh.

19 A. -- you know, to enter and exit the building. And

20 we did have a fire one night. And I came down,

21 and I must have came down kind of hard, so

22 this -- my whole left leg, I busted the bottom of

23 it, and I had an infection. So -- and I didn't

24 realize it until I got back upstairs. So I had

25 blood all over the place. And after that, I

23

1 realized I need to move somewhere where I can be

2 on one level, be serene. And I find North

3 Carolina very relaxing place. I -- I fell in

4 love with it when my son went to college down

5 here.

6 Q. Uh-huh.

7 A. And I just wanted somewhere to call home until my

8 days are over with.

9 Q. Did you live with your -- your daughter, you

10 mentioned. How old is your daughter?

11 A. My daughter is 31.

12 Q. Was she --

13 A. She will be 32. She's in the room there.

14 Q. Was she already living down here or did she move

15 with you?

16 A. She came in July. And I moved here in -- she

17 came here before I did, and I moved in September.

18 Q. Okay. And so if you were here in 2011, did you

19 not vote in 2012?

20 A. No, I didn't. My vision -- I began to lose my

21 vision back then. So I was unable to see that

22 well. I couldn't see that well. And my

23 daughter, she doesn't drive. So it's kind

24 of hard -- it was kind of hard for me to get

25 around. And I met George a couple of months

24

1 after I moved down here.

2 So no, I did not vote.

3 Q. Okay. I think you mentioned that you thought you

4 were registered to vote in 2014 when you went to

5 the polls?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Why did you think you were registered?

8 A. Because when they gave me my name and my address,

9 they said, "Oh, we have you down already." He

10 didn't tell me what I was down for. He just

11 said, "I have you down already."

12 He said, "Are you Sandra Beatty?" He

13 said, "You live at 355 Beasley."

14 I said, "Yes."

15 So I assumed that I was already

16 registered.

17 Q. But do you recall doing -- taking any steps in

18 order to register?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. No.

22 Q. And did -- did you think it was odd that you

23 seemed to be registered?

24 A. I did. I did. Yes.

25 Q. Okay.


mosierms

Highlight



7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 A. I did.

2 Q. So in 2012, you believed you were registered and

3 you cast a ballot, and then you -- I believe you

4 testified you didn't realize that ballot didn't

5 count until the Southern Coalition for Social

6 Justice called you; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 MR. BROOK: Objection, Kathy. I think

9 you said 2012 in the course of that question.

10 MS. MURPHY: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. I

11 meant 2014.

12 Q. In 2014 is when you --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- voted, thought it had counted, and didn't

15 realize it didn't count until you got a phone

16 call from the Southern Coalition --

17 A. Yes, ma'am.

18 Q. -- is that correct?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 Q. Okay. And do you know if you're registered now?

21 A. I'm not.

22 Q. How do you know that?

23 A. I haven't filled out any forms.

24 Q. And is it possible that you filled out a

25 registration form in 2014 at the polls?

26

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Or maybe your daughter, I guess, maybe filled it

3 out for you?

4 A. I would have to ask her if she filled it out. Do

5 you want me to ask her or...

6 Q. No, no. That's all right.

7 A. Okay.

8 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in North Carolina there

9 is a mail-in absentee ballot?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So if you could vote by mail and not have to get

12 transportation someplace, would that be an option

13 you would consider?

14 A. Sure.

15 Q. Okay. And are you aware that you can register to

16 vote by mail?

17 A. No.

18 Q. If that was a possibility, would you consider

19 that?

20 A. Sure.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MS. MURPHY: I have no further

23 questions.

24 MR. BROOK: Just a few follow-up

25 questions.

27

1 EXAMINATION

2 BY MR. BROOK:

3 Q. When you were at curbside voting on October 31st,

4 2014, did your daughter help you with filling out

5 some of the documentation provided by poll

6 workers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Did she ask you some questions to, sort

9 of, fill out documentation on October 31st, 2014?

10 A. She -- excuse me. She went through the candidates

11 with me.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Actually, you know, ask me who do I want to pick.

14 And then she filled it out.

15 Q. Okay. Did she seek background information from

16 you on that day, like what party you wanted to --

17 to register with, any information like that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Is it possible that you registered on

20 October 31st, 2014, when you were providing that

21 information to your daughter?

22 A. I don't know. I don't remember. I --

23 Q. That's -- that's fine. That's fine. I don't

24 remember things that happened earlier this week,

25 and it's Monday morning.

28

1 Have you been provided any material by

2 the State about how you would go about voting

3 absentee?

4 A. No.

5 Q. If you received something in the mail from the

6 State about voting absentee, would you be able to

7 read it?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Have you received any information from the State

10 about how to register to vote by mail?

11 A. No -- excuse me. No.

12 Q. If you received something like that through the

13 mail, providing instructions about how to

14 register to vote by mail, would you be able to

15 read that, Ms. Beatty?

16 A. No.

17 MR. BROOK: Okay. Let me just look

18 through my notes very quickly to make sure I've

19 asked every question that I should ask of you

20 before we -- we leave.

21 (Pause.)

22 MR. BROOK: Those are all the questions

23 I have.

24 MS. MURPHY: I do have just a brief

25 follow-up.


lawl0624

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8 (Pages 29 to 31)

29

1 EXAMINATION

2 BY MS. MURPHY:

3 Q. Do you have somebody who helps you with reading

4 you your mail? I believe you said somebody reads

5 you things.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does your daughter do that for you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Does she live here with you?

10 A. No, she doesn't.

11 Q. Do you have anyone who lives here with you who

12 reads you your mail?

13 A. Yes. My 13-year-old son and my granddaughter.

14 She's 15.

15 Q. And if you wanted to obtain information from the

16 board of elections about things like registration

17 and mail and absentee ballots, is there someone

18 who could help you obtain that information?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. MURPHY: Okay. I have no further

21 questions.

22 MR. BROOK: I think that's all we have

23 for you this morning. Thanks so much for your

24 time. We really appreciate it.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

30

1 MS. MURPHY: Thank you.

2 And I do want to tell you, I think

3 you're registered.

4 MR. BROOK: Yeah. We -- I -- what --

5 and we -- we can...

6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off -- this concludes

7 the deposition. The time is 11:25 a.m.

8 [SIGNATURE WAIVED]

9 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 11:25 A.M.]

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31



2 COUNTY OF WAYNE )

3

4 I, JENNIFER C. CARROLL, Court Reporter and

5 Notary Public, the officer before whom the proceeding

6 was conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose

7 testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding was duly

8 sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was

9 taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter

10 transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

11 pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

12 transcription of the testimony of the witness.

13 I do further certify that I am neither

14 counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the

15 parties to this action, and further, that I am not a

16 relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed

17 by the parties thereof, nor financially or otherwise

18 interested in the outcome of said action.

19 This the 1st day of June, 2015.

20

21

22

Jennifer C. Carroll, RPR, CRR

23 Notary Public #19923280118

24

25


lawl0624

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·1· · · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

·2· · · · · FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA

·3· ·------------------------------x· · ·NORTH CAROLINA STATE·4· ·CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et· · ·al.,·5· · ·Plaintiffs,·6· · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV658

·7· ·PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in· · ·his official capacity as·8· ·Governor of North Carolina,· · ·et al.,·9· · ·Defendants.10· ·------------------------------x· · ·LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF11· ·NORTH CAROLINA, et al.,

12· ·Plaintiffs,

13· ·and

14· ·LOUIS M. DUKE, et al.,

15· ·Plaintiffs-Intervenors,

16· · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV660

17· ·THE STATE OF NORTH· · ·CAROLINA, et al.,18· · ·Defendants.19· ·------------------------------x· · ·UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,20· ·Plaintiff,

21· · · · · · · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:13CV86122· · ·THE STATE OF NORTH23· ·CAROLINA, et al.,

24· ·Defendants.

25· ·-------------------------------x


http://www.huseby.com

Page 2·1· · · · · · · · ·Deposition of JOSUE BERDUO

·2· · · · · · · · · (Taken by the Defendants)

·3· · · · · · · · · ·Raleigh, North Carolina

·4· · · · · · · · · ·Friday, March 20, 2015

·5

·6· ·Reported by:· · ·Marisa Munoz-Vourakis -

· · · · · · · · · · · RMR, CRR and Notary Public

·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·o0o

·8· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:

·9· ·For the Intervenor Plaintiffs:

10· · · · · · ·BRUCE V. SPIVA, ESQ.

11· · · · · · ·Perkins Coie, LLP

12· · · · · · ·700 Thirteenth Street, N.W., Suite 600

13· · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20005-3960

14· · · · · · ·202-654-6203

15· · · · · · ·[email protected]

16

17· ·For the United States of America:

18· · · · · · ·JUDYBETH GREENE, ESQ.(By Telephone)

19· · · · · · ·U.S. Department of Justice

20· · · · · · ·950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

21· · · · · · ·NWB- Room 7265

22· · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20530

23· · · · · · ·800-253-3931


25

Page 3·1· ·APPEARANCES (Continued)

·2· ·For the Defendants:

·3· · · · · · ·MICHAEL D. McKNIGHT, ESQ.

·4· · · · · · ·PATRICK D. LAWLER, ESQ.

·5· · · · · · ·Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart,

·6· · · · · · ·P.C.

·7· · · · · · ·4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100

·8· · · · · · ·Raleigh, NC 27609

·9· · · · · · ·919-787-9700



12

13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·o0o

14

15· · · · · · · · ·Deposition of JOSUE BERDUO, taken by the

16· ·Defendants, at Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak &

17· ·Stewart, P.C., 4208 Six Forks Road, Suite 1100,

18· ·Raleigh, North Carolina, on the 20th day of March, 2015

19· ·at 9:37 a.m., before Marisa Munoz-Vourakis, Registered

20· ·Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter and Notary

21· ·Public.

22

23

24

25

Page 4·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X

·2· ·Examination of:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page

·3· ·JOSUE BERDUO

·4· · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. MCKNIGHT· . . . . . . . 5

·5

·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·BERDUO EXHIBIT

·7· ·EXHIBIT NUMBER· · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · PAGE

·8· ·Exhibit 1· ·Voting History of Mr. Berduo· · · · 14

·9

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Page 5·1· · · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S

·2· · · · ·Whereupon,· JOSUE BERDUO, having been

·3· · · · ·first duly sworn, was examined

·4· · · · ·and testified as follows:

·5· · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANTS

·6· · · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Good morning, Mr. Berduo, my name is

·8· ·Michael McKnight.· We met a moment ago.· I'm one of the

·9· ·attorneys I'm representing the North Carolina State

10· ·Board of Elections defendants in this matter in which

11· ·you are an intervenor in a lawsuit that was brought by

12· ·the League of Women Voters against the State of North

13· ·Carolina.

14· · · · · · · ·Have you ever had your deposition taken

15· ·before?

16· · · · A.· · ·No.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Today's process is fairly simple.· I'll

18· ·just ask you questions, and those questions and your

19· ·responses will be taken down by the court reporter.

20· · · · · · · ·As the court reporter asked earlier, we

21· ·would ask that you use words, yes or no, where

22· ·appropriate, rather than nodding your head or other

23· ·nonverbal responses so the court reporter can record

24· ·what your response is to any particular question.

25· · · · · · · ·Do you understand that everything that you



Page 6·1· ·say today in response to one of my questions is under

·2· ·oath as if we were in court?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·And do you understand that you have an

·5· ·obligation to testify truthfully?

·6· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And is there any reason why you believe

·8· ·that you cannot testify truthfully and completely

·9· ·today?

10· · · · A.· · ·No.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And if you don't understand one of my

12· ·questions, I would ask that you ask me to repeat it or

13· ·rephrase it until you do understand.· And if I don't

14· ·hear you ask me to repeat or rephrase a question, I

15· ·will assume that you understand it, is that fair?

16· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

17· · · · Q.· · ·We can certainly take a break at any time

18· ·that you need to during today's proceeding.· The only

19· ·caveat to that would be if I have a question pending, I

20· ·would ask that you answer my question before we take a

21· ·break, is that fair?

22· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· · ·And Mr. Berduo, did you review any

24· ·documents today to refresh your recollection about the

25· ·facts in this case?

Page 7·1· · · · A.· · ·Not today.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·And did you review any documents before

·3· ·today to prepare for your deposition today?

·4· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And what documents did you review?

·6· · · · A.· · ·Just my report that I've given to the case.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Well, I'm sorry, what was that?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Just like my testimony that I've given to

·9· ·the case, like my background.

10· · · · Q.· · ·And what was the form of that testimony?

11· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It was the one that you

12· · · · ·gave --

13· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· I caution you not to

14· · · · ·mention anything that we've discussed

15· · · · ·amongst ourselves, but you can certainly

16· · · · ·tell counsel documents that you've reviewed

17· · · · ·to prepare.

18· · · · A.· · ·It was the appeals form.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Was it the complaint?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·The complaint of the lawsuit, okay.

22· · · · · · · ·Anything other than the complaint?

23· · · · A.· · ·That was it.

24· · · · Q.· · ·Mr. Berduo, what is your full name?

25· · · · A.· · ·Josue Elias Berduo.

Page 8·1· · · · Q.· · ·And is Elias spelled E-L-I-A-S, is that

·2· ·right?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·Have you ever gone by any other names?

·5· · · · A.· · ·Yes, prior to 2011, my last name was

·6· ·Verdugo, V-E-R-D-U-G-O.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Just out of curiosity, what was the reason

·8· ·for the name change?

·9· · · · A.· · ·The one -- my last name that I have right

10· ·now is my actual last name.· There was a big screw up

11· ·in California where I was born, so it took a while to

12· ·get it changed.

13· · · · Q.· · ·I see.· And is your date of birth

14· , 1993?

15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And that would make you about 21 years old

17· ·today?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· · ·Where did you grow up, Mr. Berduo?

20· · · · A.· · ·Asheville, North Carolina.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And I think you mentioned something about

22· ·California.· Were you born in California?

23· · · · A.· · ·Yes, I moved here when I was three.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And that was to Asheville?

25· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

Page 9·1· · · · Q.· · ·And did you ever register to vote at any

·2· ·address in Asheville?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·What address was that?

·5· · · · A.· · ·It was my 209 East Oakview Road, Asheville,

·6· ·North Carolina address.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And is that an address you still use today

·8· ·for any reason?

·9· · · · A.· · ·My home address.· If I want important

10· ·documents to be mailed to me, I'll get them mailed over

11· ·there instead of my campus dorm.

12· · · · Q.· · ·And why is that?

13· · · · A.· · ·Because if I move off campus or change

14· ·dorms, I don't want mail to be going to that room.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Any other purpose you use the 209 East

16· ·Oakview Road address for?

17· · · · A.· · ·That's my main reason to use that.

18· · · · Q.· · ·And beyond that address, have you ever

19· ·lived at another address in North Carolina?

20· · · · A.· · ·Besides my dorms, no.

21· · · · Q.· · ·I guess the better question may be after

22· ·the Asheville address, did you move anywhere else?

23· · · · A.· · ·No.

24· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And have you ever had an address in

25· ·Charlotte, North Carolina?

REDACTED

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Page 10·1· · · · A.· · ·My campus dorm, I was at UNC Charlotte for

·2· ·a year.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And what address was that?

·4· · · · A.· · ·It was my Witherspoon Hall address. I

·5· ·don't remember the exact room.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·And so is it fair to say that you graduated

·7· ·high school in Asheville?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Where did you attend high school?

10· · · · A.· · ·I went to Enka High School.

11· · · · Q.· · ·How is Enka spelled?· Is that with an E or

12· ·an I?

13· · · · A.· · ·E, E-N-K-A.

14· · · · Q.· · ·I think I've seen it on a road sign

15· ·somewhere going up that way.

16· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· I-N-C-A was my guess.

17· · · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

18· · · · Q.· · ·So after you graduated from high school,

19· ·you went to UNC Charlotte first as a student, is that

20· ·right?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And you said you started at UNC Charlotte.

23· ·Was that 2011?

24· · · · A.· · ·No, the fall of 2012.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And how long were you a student at

Page 11·1· ·UNC Charlotte?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Just one year, two semesters.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And then you transferred to NC State?

·4· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And out of curiosity, why did you transfer

·6· ·to NC State?

·7· · · · A.· · ·I wanted to move to the capitol for

·8· ·opportunities.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Any opportunities in particular or --

10· · · · A.· · ·I have an internship at the general

11· ·assembly, so.

12· · · · Q.· · ·Is that a current internship?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Who is that with?

15· · · · A.· · ·I work for State Senator Joel Ford.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And he is a senator from the Charlotte

17· ·area?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And is Mr. Ford someone you met through

20· ·being a student at UNC Charlotte, or did you meet him

21· ·somewhere else?

22· · · · A.· · ·No, I met him last summer when I applied

23· ·for internship.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And after UNC Charlotte, did you have

25· ·another address that you used in North Carolina?

Page 12·1· · · · A.· · ·My campus dorm at NC State.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·So after you transferred to NC State -- and

·3· ·when did you actually transfer to NC State?

·4· · · · A.· · ·Fall 2013.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·Have you had a single address that whole

·6· ·time that you've been at NC State?

·7· · · · A.· · ·No, because I've had two dorms now.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·And what was the first dorm address that

·9· ·you had at NC State?

10· · · · A.· · ·The first address was Wood Hall.· I'm not

11· ·sure about the number at this point now, and then right

12· ·now it's Bragaw Hall, which it's 15102 Bragaw Hall.

13· · · · Q.· · ·And when did you move to Bragaw Hall?

14· · · · A.· · ·In the fall of 2014.

15· · · · Q.· · ·And by fall, all these fall starts, is that

16· ·August, is that what you mean?

17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Now, with respect to these addresses that

19· ·we've talked about, have you ever been registered to

20· ·vote at the 209 East Oakview Road address in Asheville?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Have you voted in any elections in

23· ·Asheville?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Which elections were they?

Page 13·1· · · · A.· · ·It was the 2012 primary.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Any other elections?

·3· · · · A.· · ·That was it for my 209 address.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And how about when you were at

·5· ·Charlotte, when you were registered?· Were you actually

·6· ·registered there?

·7· · · · A.· · ·Yeah, that's where I voted in the

·8· ·precedential election in 2012.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·2012 general election?

10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And you were registered at Witherspoon Hall

12· ·address?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And then how about when you moved to

15· ·Raleigh?· Were you ever registered to vote at Wood

16· ·Hall?

17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Did you ever vote from that address?

19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· · ·What election is that?

21· · · · A.· · ·In the 2013 municipal election.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And then are you registered to vote now at

23· ·Bragaw Hall?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And have you voted in any elections from



Page 14·1· ·that address?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·What elections?

·4· · · · A.· · ·In the 2014 general election.

·5· · · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Let me take a moment

·6· · · · ·now, let me mark a document Berduo 1.

·7· · · · · · · · · · (The document referred to was marked

·8· · · · · · ·Berduo Exhibit Number 1 for

·9· · · · · · ·identification.)

10· · · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· Let me give you a copy

11· · · · ·too counsel, here.

12· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Thank you.

13· · · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

14· · · · Q.· · ·And Mr. Berduo, I'll represent to you that

15· ·this is just a document that came off of the State

16· ·Board of Elections web site as of this morning listing

17· ·your voter history.· And I want you to take a moment to

18· ·look at this and look at the voter history in the

19· ·particular bottom, and let me know if that accurately

20· ·describes your voter history, as you remember it?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yeah, the 2014 primary, that was at the

22· ·Wood Hall address, for the record.

23· · · · Q.· · ·So when you were registered to vote at Wood

24· ·Hall, you voted at that address in both the 2013

25· ·municipal election and the 2014 primary election, is

Page 15·1· ·that right?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And it appears that in every election in

·4· ·which you voted, except for the 2012 primary, you used

·5· ·one-stop absentee voting, is that correct?

·6· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Any particular reason why you used that

·8· ·method of voting over another method of voting?· For

·9· ·example, voting in person on Election Day or using an

10· ·absentee ballot?

11· · · · A.· · ·I didn't use an absentee ballot.· I just

12· ·voted early.· And then when I moved to Wood Hall, I

13· ·registered to vote and voted the same day, because I

14· ·wasn't registered in Wake County at that point in time.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Well, what this shows is that you

16· ·voted using a one-stop absentee ballot in all elections

17· ·except the 2012 primary election, and I think maybe the

18· ·confusion is are you aware that early voting is also

19· ·referred to as one-stop absentee voting or one-stop

20· ·absentee balloting?

21· · · · A.· · ·Okay.· I voted early.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Let's talk about each of those elections in

23· ·turn then.

24· · · · · · · ·In the 2012 primary election, this states

25· ·that you voted in person in Buncombe County, and that

Page 16·1· ·was at the, is it Oakview Road address?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And why did you decide to vote in person in

·4· ·the 2012 primary election?

·5· · · · A.· · ·It's my first time voting.· I had used

·6· ·preregistration, and then that was my first time voting

·7· ·in the primary.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·And you just wanted to vote in person for

·9· ·that reason?

10· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And you said you used preregistration.

12· ·What do you mean by that?

13· · · · A.· · ·I was 17 years old when I registered to

14· ·vote.

15· · · · Q.· · ·Do you remember specifically?

16· · · · A.· · ·Not the exact like time period, but I was

17· ·17.

18· · · · Q.· · ·How do you know if it was during your

19· ·senior year of high school or --

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it was.

21· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Do you know whether it was in the

22· ·fall or the spring?

23· · · · A.· · ·I want to say it was in the fall.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And how did you register?· Did you mail the

25· ·registration form in yourself, or was there a

Page 17·1· ·registration drive that you were part of or do you

·2· ·remember?

·3· · · · A.· · ·I was part of a registration drive.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·And who conducted that?

·5· · · · A.· · ·It was part of the OFA campaign, the

·6· ·Organizing for America presidential campaign.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And that was part of Barack Obama's

·8· ·presidential campaign?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· · ·And how did they register you to vote?

11· · · · A.· · ·They just -- they had the forms, and I just

12· ·registered to vote, send it in to them and then they

13· ·submitted it.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Did they visit your school, or did you go

15· ·to a site?

16· · · · A.· · ·Oh, I was part of the campaign.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And so you would have registered to

18· ·vote sometime in 2012, is that what you're thinking?

19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· Actually, it should have been, so I

20· ·was a senior in 2011-2012, so it might have been

21· ·towards the end of 2011.

22· · · · Q.· · ·So you're thinking maybe the fall of 2011

23· ·when you originally registered to vote?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes, because I graduated in May -- in June

25· ·2012.



Page 18·1· · · · Q.· · ·And you were part of Organizing for

·2· ·America?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·Starting when?

·5· · · · A.· · ·Since January of 2012.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·So you registered to vote through a drive

·7· ·conducted by Organizing for America before you became a

·8· ·part of that?

·9· · · · A.· · ·So when I got my driver's license, they had

10· ·already preregistered me, but I reregistered with OFA.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And can you explain that to me?· You say

12· ·when you got your driver's license they had already

13· ·preregistered you?

14· · · · A.· · ·They asked me if I wanted to preregister to

15· ·vote, and I did, and then I wanted to change one little

16· ·thing, so I did that with OFA.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So when did you get your driver's

18· ·license?

19· · · · A.· · ·It should have been towards the end of --

20· ·well, let me jog up my memory real quick.· It's been a

21· ·while.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Sure.

23· · · · A.· · ·I already had my driver's license towards

24· ·the end of my junior year.

25· · · · Q.· · ·So you think when you went to get your

Page 19·1· ·driver's license, you registered to vote at the same

·2· ·time?

·3· · · · A.· · ·They asked me if I wanted to preregister,

·4· ·and I said yes.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· So you preregistered when you got

·6· ·your driver's license at your junior year of high

·7· ·school, right?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Um-hum.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And then you said as part of a get

10· ·out the vote or voter registration campaign by

11· ·Organizing for America, you changed something on your

12· ·registration?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·What was it?

15· · · · A.· · ·It was my affiliation.

16· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And what did you change your

17· ·affiliation from or to?

18· · · · A.· · ·From Independent to Democrat.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And when did you change your affiliation?

20· · · · A.· · ·Should have been right after January of

21· ·2012.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And in the first election you voted in was

23· ·the May 2012 primary, is that right?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And then after the May 2012 primary, this

Page 20·1· ·voter information form says that you voted in the 2012

·2· ·general election in Mecklenburg County, is that right?

·3· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·And you used one-stop absentee voting for

·5· ·that?

·6· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And why did you decide to use the one-stop

·8· ·absentee voting or early voting for the 2012 general

·9· ·election?

10· · · · A.· · ·I wanted to vote early, and they had a

11· ·polling location on campus at UNC Charlotte.

12· · · · Q.· · ·And then the next election, I see that you

13· ·voted in was the October 2013 municipal election in

14· ·Wake County, is that right?

15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And you used early voting for that?

17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · ·And why did you early vote in the 2013

19· ·municipal election?

20· · · · A.· · ·I wanted to register and vote at the same

21· ·time and just avoid Election Day lines.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And by register and vote at the same time,

23· ·what do you mean?

24· · · · A.· · ·Well, at the time, I could register to vote

25· ·and vote at the same day, because I wasn't registered

Page 21·1· ·in Wake County at the time.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Do you remember when you moved to Wake

·3· ·County?

·4· · · · A.· · ·It was in the August of 2013.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And is there any reason why you didn't

·6· ·register or change your address rather on your

·7· ·registration immediately after you moved to Wake

·8· ·County?

·9· · · · A.· · ·No, there's no real reason.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Now, the next election it looked like you

11· ·voted in was the 2014 primary election.· You also voted

12· ·in Wake County.· And would that have been at the Wood

13· ·Hall address?

14· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

15· · · · Q.· · ·And you voted early in the 2014 primary

16· ·election, is that right?

17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · ·Is there any reason why you voted early in

19· ·the 2014 primary?

20· · · · A.· · ·Just to avoid Election Day lines,

21· ·congestion.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And then in the 2014 general election in

23· ·November of 2014, you also voted early, is that right?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And that's when you voted from the B



Page 22·1· ·hall address is that right?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And why did you vote early in the 2014

·4· ·general election?

·5· · · · A.· · ·For the same reason, just to avoid Election

·6· ·Day lines.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Now, how did you change your address from

·8· ·the Wood Hall to Bragaw Hall between the 2014 primary

·9· ·and the 2014 general election?

10· · · · A.· · ·I just submitted another form, registration

11· ·form, and there was a nonpartisan drive on campus.

12· · · · Q.· · ·So you didn't have any problems changing

13· ·your registration that way?

14· · · · A.· · ·No.

15· · · · Q.· · ·And looking back at all of these elections

16· ·that you voted in, did you have any problems voting in

17· ·any of those elections?

18· · · · A.· · ·No.

19· · · · Q.· · ·What is your academic major now, if you

20· ·selected one?

21· · · · A.· · ·Economics.

22· · · · Q.· · ·What do you plan to do when you graduate?

23· · · · A.· · ·At this point, I'm not sure yet.· I'm

24· ·trying to get into like finance.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Do you plan to return home to Asheville

Page 23·1· ·after you graduate?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Not really planning on it.· I want to stay

·3· ·in the Triangle area.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·Is it a possibility or not at all?

·5· · · · A.· · ·I think it's a possibility.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·And would you return specifically to your

·7· ·home address on Oakview Road or somewhere else in

·8· ·Asheville, if you were to return there?

·9· · · · A.· · ·At first, I would probably return to my

10· ·Oakview Road address.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And other than this lawsuit, have you ever

12· ·been a party to any other lawsuit?

13· · · · A.· · ·No.

14· · · · Q.· · ·You haven't been a participant in any kind

15· ·of criminal proceeding or anything like that?

16· · · · A.· · ·No.

17· · · · Q.· · ·I think we talked earlier about the fact

18· ·that you have a driver's license, is that right?

19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· · ·That's a North Carolina driver's license?

21· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And what is the address currently on that

23· ·license?

24· · · · A.· · ·It's my 209 East Oakview Road address.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And why is that the address on your

Page 24·1· ·license?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Because that's my home address, and I

·3· ·haven't really changed it, because I've only had a

·4· ·temporary address, other than that -- not a temporary,

·5· ·but permanent address, because I've just been living on

·6· ·dorms, in dorms.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And do you have a car on campus at NC

·8· ·State?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· · ·And does that car belong to you or to

11· ·somebody else?

12· · · · A.· · ·It technically belongs to my mom.

13· · · · Q.· · ·And what address is that car registered at?

14· · · · A.· · ·The 209 East Oakview Road address.

15· · · · Q.· · ·So any taxes on that car are paid to

16· ·Buncombe County, is that right?

17· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

18· · · · Q.· · ·How about the registration?· Is that

19· ·registered in Buncombe County?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And in terms of insurance, does your

22· ·insurance information go to your address on 209 Oakview

23· ·Road, or does it go to your dorm?

24· · · · A.· · ·Yes, it goes to the 209.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Did you have any trouble obtaining your

Page 25·1· ·driver's license when you got it?

·2· · · · A.· · ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know when it expires?

·4· · · · A.· · ·It expires in 2019, I believe.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·I think the only election, according to

·6· ·Exhibit 1 here, that you actually voted in person in

·7· ·was the 2012 primary in Buncombe County.· During that

·8· ·election, did you vote in a precinct other than the one

·9· ·in which you were assigned to vote?

10· · · · A.· · ·I voted in my precinct.

11· · · · Q.· · ·So you voted in the correct precinct?

12· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

13· · · · Q.· · ·So I take it that you've never voted on

14· ·Election Day in a precinct other than the one in which

15· ·you resided?

16· · · · A.· · ·During early vote, it was different, so.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Sure, yeah, but not on Election Day?

18· · · · A.· · ·No.· No.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And Mr. Berduo, we're here today because

20· ·you're a plaintiff, as we discussed earlier, in a

21· ·lawsuit challenge certain changes to North Carolina's

22· ·voting laws made by what is known as Voter Information

23· ·Verification Act or VIVA.· Is that a term or law that

24· ·you're familiar with?

25· · · · A.· · ·Yes.



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Page 26·1· · · · Q.· · ·And how did you become involved in this

·2· ·lawsuit?

·3· · · · A.· · ·I was --

·4· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Let me just caution, you

·5· · · · ·can answer the question, but just, you

·6· · · · ·should exclude from your answer any

·7· · · · ·conversations, discussions you had with your

·8· · · · ·attorneys.· But you can answer the question.

·9· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.

10· · · · A.· · ·Last year -- well, not last year, around

11· ·August 2013, I was reached out to by another plaintiff,

12· ·and he told me about this case, and he asked if I

13· ·wanted to join or be part of it as a plaintiff.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And who was that specifically?

15· · · · A.· · ·Louis Duke.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And what did Mr. Duke tell you about the

17· ·lawsuit?

18· · · · A.· · ·He was telling me that they're challenging

19· ·VIVA, and they wanted students -- he wanted students to

20· ·be represented in this case.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And did he tell you anything about the

22· ·lawsuit?

23· · · · A.· · ·No.

24· · · · Q.· · ·About what it was about?

25· · · · A.· · ·No.

Page 27·1· · · · Q.· · ·So what did you do after you spoke with

·2· ·Mr. Duke?

·3· · · · A.· · ·I told him that I would be interested in

·4· ·it, and then the case started and I was a plaintiff.

·5· · · · Q.· · ·And I guess I don't want to know about any

·6· ·conversations you had with an attorney.· Did an

·7· ·attorney contact you?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· Why did you decide to get involved

10· ·in the lawsuit -- in this lawsuit?

11· · · · A.· · ·Because they were trying to challenge some

12· ·parts of the lawsuit that actually affects students.

13· · · · Q.· · ·And specifically what parts of the lawsuit

14· ·do you think impacts or affects students?

15· · · · A.· · ·Shortening early vote, eliminating the

16· ·ability to vote outside your precinct and not allowing

17· ·students to use their student IDs and also registering

18· ·to vote on the same day that you vote.

19· · · · Q.· · ·I think, as we talked about earlier, you

20· ·said that you personally had never had any problems

21· ·voting, is that right?

22· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

23· · · · Q.· · ·So why bring the lawsuit in that case?

24· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Objection to form, but you

25· · · · ·can answer.

Page 28·1· · · · A.· · ·I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?

·2· · · · Q.· · ·Sure.· If you had not had any trouble

·3· ·voting, why did you decide that you wanted to be a

·4· ·plaintiff in the lawsuit?

·5· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Objection, but you can

·6· · · · ·answer.

·7· · · · A.· · ·Well, I personally haven't been burdened,

·8· ·because I am going to be able to vote, because I'm

·9· ·pretty much civically engaged.· As you can see, I've

10· ·voted in pretty much every election that I have been

11· ·able to vote, but there's other students that could be

12· ·affected by this law.

13· · · · Q.· · ·And by other students, are you thinking

14· ·about people in particular?

15· · · · A.· · ·Not in particular, but in general some

16· ·students might be affected.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Well, can you name any particular students

18· ·who you think may be affected by the law?

19· · · · A.· · ·I did have a friend a while back who she

20· ·did not have a state-issued ID, but although the ID

21· ·requirement doesn't start until 2016, but she said if

22· ·that were to be the case, in this past election, she

23· ·wouldn't have been able to vote if she had not gotten

24· ·any ID.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And did she in fact get an ID that would be

Page 29·1· ·acceptable to vote?

·2· · · · A.· · ·At this point, I'm not sure if she does

·3· ·have one.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know her name?

·5· · · · A.· · ·Am I allowed to?

·6· · · · Q.· · ·Yeah, I mean, I think that's relevant.

·7· · · · A.· · ·Jamie Kent.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·And does she live in Wake County?

·9· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

10· · · · Q.· · ·And so you don't know whether Ms. Kent has

11· ·obtained an ID?

12· · · · A.· · ·At this point, I haven't asked.

13· · · · Q.· · ·And did Ms. Kent tell you why she had

14· ·concerns about obtaining a proper photo ID?

15· · · · A.· · ·Not in details.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And other than Ms. Kent, do you know of

17· ·anyone else who you believe would have trouble

18· ·obtaining a state-issued ID so they could vote in 2016?

19· · · · A.· · ·Not specifically.

20· · · · Q.· · ·Well, generally speaking, do you know of

21· ·groups of people who you believe would not be able to

22· ·obtain a proper ID to vote in 2016?

23· · · · A.· · ·No.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And do you think the changes to North

25· ·Carolina's voting laws made by VIVA affect you



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Page 30·1· ·personally in any way?

·2· · · · A.· · ·So when I was in high school, I also did

·3· ·registration drives on campus, and I was also

·4· ·registering folks who were not 18 yet.· So I was

·5· ·preregistering them, and then now with the law, you're

·6· ·not really allowed to do that.

·7· · · · · · · ·So I think it would affect my personal

·8· ·initiatives in registering folks to vote or young

·9· ·people to vote.

10· · · · Q.· · ·Now, nothing would prohibit you from

11· ·registering people who would be 18 from the time of the

12· ·next general election right now, is that right?

13· · · · A.· · ·No.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And are you currently engaged in any

15· ·sort of preregistration efforts or registration efforts

16· ·of people who are in high school?

17· · · · A.· · ·At this point?

18· · · · Q.· · ·Yeah.

19· · · · A.· · ·No.· But when I was in high school, I

20· ·worked for the OFA as a volunteer, so I was registering

21· ·high school students to vote.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And at this point, are you engaged in any

23· ·effort at all to register high school students?

24· · · · A.· · ·At this point, no.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And do you have any plans to do that in the

Page 31·1· ·future?

·2· · · · A.· · ·No.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·With respect to your driver's license that

·4· ·you have, do you have any concerns about using that

·5· ·license to vote in the 2016 elections?

·6· · · · A.· · ·No.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·Did you attend any public hearings on the

·8· ·VIVA law when it was being considered by the general

·9· ·assembly?

10· · · · A.· · ·No.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And other than your attorneys, have you

12· ·spoken with anyone else, other than Mr. Duke, about

13· ·this lawsuit?

14· · · · A.· · ·I was interviewed by the New York Times

15· ·last summer.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And what did you tell the New York Times

17· ·about the lawsuit?

18· · · · A.· · ·They just asked me why I was involved in

19· ·the case, how it would affect students.· So I gave them

20· ·my answers, and they quoted me in the New York Times

21· ·article that they ran.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And do you remember what you told the New

23· ·York Times about that?

24· · · · A.· · ·I said that parts of the law would

25· ·negative -- would impact students in a negative way, or

Page 32·1· ·it could like cause some problems for students to vote.

·2· · · · Q.· · ·And did you provide them with any specific

·3· ·information on what problems may be caused?

·4· · · · A.· · ·Students that may not have state-issued IDs

·5· ·and not being able to use the student IDs as a valid ID

·6· ·in 2016, that might cause a problem.

·7· · · · Q.· · ·And any other problem or impact on students

·8· ·that you remember discussing with the New York Times?

·9· · · · A.· · ·No, I think that was one of the major ones

10· ·that I discussed.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And why do you think that students would

12· ·not be able to obtain state-issued ID to vote in 2016?

13· · · · A.· · ·Just the hassle of just some people -- some

14· ·students don't drive on campus.· Some students, they

15· ·don't know where to go.· Some students don't even know

16· ·the law, the specifics about the law.

17· · · · Q.· · ·Now, you're involved in a number of

18· ·organizations on campus, is that fair to say?

19· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

20· · · · Q.· · ·And can you list for us today the number of

21· ·or the names of the organizations that you are involved

22· ·in on campus at NC State right now?

23· · · · A.· · ·I'm involved in student government.· I'm

24· ·also involved with the College Democrats at NC State.

25· · · · Q.· · ·And what is your role with student

Page 33·1· ·government at NC State?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Right now I'm currently the director of

·3· ·government relations.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·What do you do in that capacity?

·5· · · · A.· · ·Our goal is to bring government

·6· ·transparency to the student body in regards to our

·7· ·local, state and federal government.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·So is part of your job in that capacity to

·9· ·educate students about changing in the voting laws and

10· ·so on?

11· · · · A.· · ·Well, we conducted our nonpartisan voter

12· ·registration in the fall of 2014.· We did tell students

13· ·about the law and to keep an eye out on changes, and if

14· ·they had questions about the law, then we would let

15· ·them know.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And did anyone come to you with questions

17· ·about the law?

18· · · · A.· · ·Some people were confused as to if they

19· ·needed an ID in that particular election in regards to

20· ·the 2014.· I said no, not this year, but you will need

21· ·one in 2016, a state-issued ID.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Were there any questions that you got that

23· ·you felt that you were unable to answer for people?

24· · · · A.· · ·No.

25· · · · Q.· · ·Looking forward to 2016, does the NCSU



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Page 34·1· ·student government or you, in your capacity as the

·2· ·director of government relations, have any plans to

·3· ·educate students about how they can go about obtaining

·4· ·a state-issued ID so that they can vote in the 2016

·5· ·elections?

·6· · · · A.· · ·At this point, there's no plans on the

·7· ·table, as my term does end next month, and I won't be

·8· ·the director in 2016 or 2015-2016 school year.

·9· · · · Q.· · ·And is there any reason why that hasn't

10· ·been something that has been addressed already by the

11· ·student government at NC State, if you know?

12· · · · A.· · ·No, there's no reason.· It all depends on

13· ·the next administration how they want to go on with

14· ·this.

15· · · · Q.· · ·And do you plan to have any involvement

16· ·with student government after your term ends, I think

17· ·you said next month?

18· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· No, I'm not planning on it.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And what other organizations are you

20· ·involved with at NC State?

21· · · · A.· · ·College of Democrats.

22· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have a particular role with them

23· ·right now?

24· · · · A.· · ·I'm on the executive board.· I used to be

25· ·the vice president, but now I'm just a board member.

Page 35·1· · · · Q.· · ·And did you do something with

·2· ·communications with them at some point?

·3· · · · A.· · ·That's not been particular with NC State.

·4· ·The communications director for the College Democrats

·5· ·of North Carolina.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·So you are a member of the College

·7· ·Democrats at NC State, and you're on the executive

·8· ·board there, and then you are also a member of College

·9· ·Democrats in North Carolina?

10· · · · A.· · ·Which is a statewide organization.

11· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And that's a group of all the

12· ·college democrats around the state?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yeah.

14· · · · Q.· · ·What is your role with the College

15· ·Democrats of North Carolina?

16· · · · A.· · ·I'm the communications director.

17· · · · Q.· · ·And do the College Democrats attempt to

18· ·educate students about the changes that have been made

19· ·to North Carolina's voting laws as a result of VIVA?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·And what has been done --

22· · · · A.· · ·We try to encourage at the state level, we

23· ·try to encourage our campus chapters to educate their

24· ·members and try to reach out to students about the

25· ·changes in the law.

Page 36·1· · · · Q.· · ·And do you know if the College Democrats

·2· ·have any plans to help educate students in how they can

·3· ·go about obtaining a proper ID so that they can vote in

·4· ·the 2016 election?

·5· · · · A.· · ·At this point, I don't know since they will

·6· ·also be transitioning to new leadership roles, and I

·7· ·won't be returning on the board.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have any plans yourself to educate

·9· ·students at NC State or other campuses about how they

10· ·can go about obtaining an ID in order to vote in 2016?

11· · · · A.· · ·I don't have concrete plans at this point.

12· · · · Q.· · ·And are you involved in any other

13· ·organizations at NC State at this time?

14· · · · A.· · ·I'm involved with CRU, which is the campus

15· ·ministry on campus, Christian ministry.

16· · · · Q.· · ·What was it called again?

17· · · · A.· · ·CRU.

18· · · · Q.· · ·CRU, okay, is that short for Campus

19· ·Crusade?

20· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

21· · · · Q.· · ·Do you have any plans to become involved in

22· ·any new organizations at NC State next year?

23· · · · A.· · ·Not at this point.

24· · · · Q.· · ·And in the past, I believe you said you had

25· ·been involved with Organizing for America, is that

Page 37·1· ·right?

·2· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·3· · · · Q.· · ·And that was part of Barack Obama's

·4· ·presidential campaign?

·5· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

·6· · · · Q.· · ·And how long were you involved in that

·7· ·group?

·8· · · · A.· · ·Started getting involved in January 2012

·9· ·and then I had like an internship in the summer of 2012

10· ·and then that ended in August 2012.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And I understand that you were a volunteer

12· ·fellow with them?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yes, that was the internship.

14· · · · Q.· · ·What does a volunteer fellow do?

15· · · · A.· · ·So we will work in their field office and

16· ·then organize voter registration drives from banks and

17· ·other events that they had us trying to run, like

18· ·volunteer training, data entry training.

19· · · · Q.· · ·And do you have plans to become involved

20· ·with any presidential campaign in the 2016 cycle?

21· · · · A.· · ·Not at this point.

22· · · · Q.· · ·And do you know of anyone in particular who

23· ·was unable to vote in 2014 as a result of the changes

24· ·to North Carolina's election laws made by VIVA?

25· · · · A.· · ·No one in particular, but I know on



Page 38·1· ·Election Day, people were confused, as if they could

·2· ·vote in certain precincts, because in student

·3· ·government, we had a get out the vote block party on

·4· ·Election Day, and then we were busing students who were

·5· ·registered on campus to our precinct, that was just

·6· ·right off campus.

·7· · · · · · · ·So people were confused if they could take

·8· ·a bus to that precinct and vote, and some of them were

·9· ·not registered to that precinct.· So I'm not sure if

10· ·those people were voted at all during that day.

11· · · · Q.· · ·And so you said that was on Election Day in

12· ·2014?

13· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

14· · · · Q.· · ·And that was in the 2014 general election?

15· · · · A.· · ·Yes.

16· · · · Q.· · ·And are you saying that the student

17· ·government at NC State provided a bus to take students

18· ·to the polling location?

19· · · · A.· · ·We won a contest through the Cosmopolitan

20· ·Magazine, and they provided the bus and all these

21· ·giveaways, and we just had a block party with the bus,

22· ·yes.

23· · · · Q.· · ·Now, was that -- that was the one with all

24· ·the shirtless guys on it and that sort of stuff?

25· · · · A.· · ·Yes.· For the record, they were not

Page 39·1· ·shirtless.

·2· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Objection.

·3· · · · · · · ·BY MR. McKNIGHT:

·4· · · · Q.· · ·I just read about it in the paper.· That's

·5· ·why I was asking, okay.

·6· · · · · · · ·How did you win that contest, by the way?

·7· · · · A.· · ·That's a million dollar question.· We don't

·8· ·know how we won.· So we were reached out from Cosmo,

·9· ·they were reaching out to student governments to apply

10· ·for this contest, and then the student body president

11· ·asked me to help them with the application.

12· · · · · · · ·So I pretty much just gave my part in the

13· ·application.· They wanted to see what our plans were

14· ·for Election Day.· Our original plans was just to like

15· ·have -- we were going to have like live music -- well,

16· ·not live music, but just have music out in the

17· ·brickyard, try to encourage students to go vote.

18· · · · · · · ·Also, our original plan was to provide

19· ·transportation by using the Wolfline Shuttle, which is

20· ·campus transportation, and then we also mentioned in

21· ·the application that we were going to try to giveaway

22· ·like giveaways, like T-shirts and stuff like that, and

23· ·then I guess Cosmo liked the idea or where we were

24· ·going with that, so we were a finalist, and at the end

25· ·of the day, we had won.

Page 40·1· · · · Q.· · ·So the student government didn't use the

·2· ·Wolfline to transport people then?

·3· · · · A.· · ·No.

·4· · · · Q.· · ·They just relied upon the Cosmo bus?

·5· · · · A.· · ·And the Wolfline told us that we couldn't

·6· ·use their buses, since they used every single one of

·7· ·their buses each day.

·8· · · · Q.· · ·Okay.· And in terms of early voting, did

·9· ·the student government do anything for early voting?

10· · · · A.· · ·No, we just encouraged them to vote,

11· ·because each week, the student body president sends out

12· ·an email to the student body with like reminders and

13· ·then he encouraged everyone to vote using early voting.

14· · · · Q.· · ·Do you know anyone who was unable to vote

15· ·during early voting because the changes to the election

16· ·laws made by VIVA?

17· · · · A.· · ·Not specifically.

18· · · · · · · ·MR. McKNIGHT:· I don't think I have

19· · · · ·any further questions of Mr. Berduo at this

20· · · · ·time.

21· · · · · · · ·MR. SPIVA:· Okay.· I don't have any

22· · · · ·questions either.· So we can wrap it up.

23· · · · · · · ·MS. GREENE:· No questions here.

24· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon the deposition was

· · · · · ·concluded at 10:20 a.m.)

25· · · · · · · ·(Signature reserved.)

Page 41·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·SIGNATURE PAGE

·2

·3

·4

·5

·6

·7· · · · · · ·___________________________

·8· · · · · · ·JOSUE BERDUO

·9

10

11· ·SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this ______

12· ·day of _____________________________, 2015.

13

14

15

16· · · · · · · ·___________________________

17· · · · · · · · · · ·NOTARY PUBLIC

18

19· ·My Commission expires:__________________________

20

21

22

23

24

25



Page 42·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ERRATA PAGE

·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MMV

·3· ·CASE NAME:· NC State Conference vs. McCrory

·4

·5

·6· ·WITNESS NAME:· JOSUE BERDUO

·7· ·DATE:· March 20., 2015

·8

·9· ·PAGE· · · · ·LINE· · · · CHANGE· · · · · · REASON

10· ·____________________________________________________

11· ·____________________________________________________

12· ·____________________________________________________

13· ·____________________________________________________

14· ·____________________________________________________

15· ·____________________________________________________

16· ·____________________________________________________

17· ·____________________________________________________

18· ·____________________________________________________

19· ·____________________________________________________

20· ·____________________________________________________

21· ·____________________________________________________

22· ·____________________________________________________

23· ·____________________________________________________

24· ·____________________________________________________

25· ·____________________________________________________

Page 43·1· · · · · · · · · · C E R T I F I C A T E

·2· · · · I, Marisa Munoz-Vourakis, RMR, CRR and Notary Public,

·3· ·the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was

·4· ·conducted, do hereby certify that the witness(es) whose

·5· ·testimony appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly

·6· ·sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness(es) were

·7· ·taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter

·8· ·transcribed under my supervision; and that the foregoing

·9· ·pages, inclusive, constitute a true and accurate

10· ·transcription of the testimony of the witness(es).

11· · · · I do further certify that I am neither counsel for,

12· ·related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this

13· ·action in which this proceeding was conducted, and

14· ·further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

15· ·attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereof, nor

16· ·financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the

17· ·action.

18· ·IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name

19· ·this 24th day of March, 2015.

20· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MARISA MUNOZ-VOURAKIS

21· ·Notary #20032900127

22

23

24

25



CHARLOTTE BOYD-MALETTE May 19, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)




OF THE NAACP, )

et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-658

)

PATRICK LLOYD MCCRORY, in his )

official capacity as the )

Governor of North Carolina, )

et al., )

)

Defendants. )

________________________________

)

LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )

NORTH CAROLINA, et al., )

)

Plaintiffs, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-660

)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

___________________________________

)


)

Plaintiff, )

)

vs. ) Case No: 1:13-CV-861

)


et al., )

)

Defendants. )

___________________________________

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION

OF

CHARLOTTE BOYD-MALETTE

2

1

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION

2

OF

3


4

_________________________________________________________

5

10:07 A.M.

6

TUESDAY, MAY 19, 2015

7 _________________________________________________________

8

OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART

9 4208 SIX FORKS ROAD

SUITE 1100

10 RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

11

12

13

14

15

16

17 By: Denise Myers Byrd, CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

3

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3

Counsel for NAACP Plaintiffs:4

KIRKLAND & ELLIS (Via Phone)5 BY: JENNIFER BASCH, ESQ.

655 Fifteenth Street, N.W.6 Washington, DC 20005


Counsel for League of Women Voters Plaintiffs:9

SOUTHERN COALITION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE10 BY: GEORGE EPPSTEINER, ESQ.

1415 West Highway 5411 Suite 101

Durham, NC 2770712 (919) 323-3380

[email protected]

14 Counsel for the United States of America Plaintiffs:15 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

BY: ELIZABETH RYAN, ESQ.16 JENIGH GARRETT, ESQ.

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.17 Washington, DC 20530


[email protected]

20 Counsel for Duke Plaintiff-Intervenors:21 PERKINS COIE

BY: JOSEPH WENZINGER, ESQ. (Via Phone)22 700 13th Street, NW

Suite 60023 Washington, DC 20005-3960


4

1

2 Counsel for Defendants State of North Carolina and

Members of the State Board of Elections:3

OGLETREE DEAKINS NASH SMOAK & STEWART4 BY: THOMAS A. FARR, ESQ.

4208 Six Forks Road5 Suite 1100

Raleigh, NC 276096 (919) 787-9700

[email protected]

Also8 Present: Wil Smith,

Deputy General Counsel, NC DOT9

10 Reported By:11 DISCOVERY COURT REPORTERS

AND LEGAL VIDEOGRAPHERS12 BY: DENISE MYERS BYRD, CSR 8340, RPR

4208 Six Forks Road13 Suite 1000

Raleigh, NC 2760914 (919) 649-9998

[email protected]

16

--o0o--17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION

Page2

3 By Ms. Ryan............................ 114 By Mr. Wenzinger....................... 1595 By Mr. Eppsteiner...................... 1726

7 --o0o--8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

6

1 INDEX OF EXHIBITS2 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION Page3 476 Official Notice,

Bates Number DOT 20587 484

477 Data Control Request 1009 615

478 Data Control Request 1009,6 Information Resources Document 627 479 DCR1009 Report B - Issued Voter ID Cards 648 480 DCR1009 Report C - Application Only

Voter ID Cards 649

481 E-mail to Nadine Barnes and others from10 Charlotte Boyd-Malette, March 7, 2015,

Subject: Free Voter ID - Voter11 Information verification Act (VIVA) 12312 482 Group of e-mails between Wanda Hairston,

Patricia Polito and others, various13 dates, Subject: Free Voter Non

Issuances 12714

483 E-mail string between Elisabeth Wise,15 Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others

September 2014, Subject: Constituent16 Issue/Rep. Goodman/Voter ID for

Disabled Constituent 17417

484 E-mail string between Tracy Bucholtz,18 Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,

January various dates,19 Subject: Photo ID issue 17620 485 E-mail string between Portia Manley,

Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,21 March 2015, Subject: DMV Free ID Card

Incident - Yancey County 18122

486 E-mail string between Daniel Ervin,23 Teresa Crudup and others,

July and August 2014,24 Subject: Driver license issuance 18325

7

1

2 487 E-mail string between Stacy Wooten, Portia Manley and others,

3 October 3, 2014, Subject: New Question for DMV 189

4

488 E-mail string between Elisabeth Wise,5 Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,

October 2014,6 Subject: Issue with Voter 1927 489 E-mail string between Serena Harris,

Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,8 January 5, 2015,

Subject: Complaint 2019

490 E-mail string between Alta Montemayor,10 Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,

September 2014,11 Subject: Quick DMV Question 21012 491 E-mail string between Timothy McLawhorn,

Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,13 October 2014, Subject: Voter ID 21314 492 E-mail string between Nadine Barnes,

Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,15 August 20, 2014,

Subject: Call from NC Board of Elections 21916

493 E-mail to Charlotte Boyd-Malette and17 others from Tracy Bucholtz,

September 4, 2014,18 Subject: Bulletin From August 24, 2014 22219 494 NCDOT: Non-Operator ID cards, Voter ID

and No-Fee ID Cards 22620

495 E-mail string between Timothy McLawhorn,21 Charlotte Boyd-Malette and others,

October 2014, Subject: Citizen 23022

496 E-mail string between Veronica23 Degraffenreid, Charlotte Boyd-Malette

and others, October 2014,24 Subject: Voter registration

Mismanagement 23325

8

1

2 497 E-mail string between Patricia Polito,

Jerry Higgins and others,3 December 2014 and January 2015,

Subject: 2015 Mobile Unit Schedule 2364

498 E-mail to Portia Manley and others5 from Helen Wong, January 22, 2015,

Subject: ESAP Refresh Applications and6 Responsible Testers List Due tomorrow 2397

--o0o--8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9


2 10:07 a.m. Today's date is May 19, 2015.

3 And this is the videotaped deposition

4 of Ms. Charlotte Boyd-Malette taken in the

5 matter of North Carolina State Conference of

6 the NAACP, et al., versus Patrick Lloyd McCrory

7 in his official capacity of the Governor of

8 North Carolina, et al., in the United States

9 District Court for the Middle District of

10 North Carolina, Civil Action Number 113-CV-658

11 and all related matters.

12 Will counsel please now introduce

13 themselves and then our court reporter will

14 swear in the witness.

15 MS. RYAN: Good morning,

16 Ms. Boyd-Malette, my name is Liz Ryan, and I

17 represent the United States in this lawsuit.

18 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

19 MS. GARRETT: Good morning. My name is

20 Jenigh Garrett and I also represent the

21 United States of America in this lawsuit.


23 MR. EPPSTEINER: Good morning. My name

24 is George Eppsteiner from the Southern

25 Coalition for the Social Justice. I represent

10

1 the League of Women Voters in North Carolina

2 plaintiffs.


4 MR. FARR: Is there someone on the

5 phone?

6 MR. WENZINGER: This is Joseph

7 Wenzinger from Perkins Coie. I represent the

8 Duke intervenor plaintiffs. I'm in Washington,

9 DC


11 MS. BAUSCH: Jennifer Bausch, Kirkland

12 & Ellis, representing the NAACP.


14 MR. FARR: Hello. I'm Tom Farr from

15 Ogletree Deakins. I'm here representing the

16 defendants, including Governor McCrory with

17 consent of his counsel.

18 MR. SMITH: I'm Wil Smith, agency

19 counsel for North Carolina Department of

20 Transportation present at the deposition but

21 not attorney of record.

22 ///

23 ///

24 ///

25 ///

11

1 CHARLOTTE BOYD-MALETTE,

2 having been first duly sworn or affirmed by the

3 Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public

4 to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing

5 but the truth, testified as follows:

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MS. RYAN:

8 Q. Good morning, Ms. Boyd-Malette. First of all,

9 am I pronouncing your name correctly?

10 A. You are.

11 Q. Do you understand that you are now under oath?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And that means that you must answer my

14 questions completely and truthfully?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I am going to go over just a few ground for the

19 process that we'll be going through today.

20 I'll be asking you questions, and my questions

21 and your answers will be recorded by the

22 court reporter.

23 To ensure an accurate transcript,

24 please let me finish my question before you

25 start to answer, and I will try to do the same

12

1 and let you finish your answer before I ask

2 another question. Okay?

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. Please do answer verbally, as you have been, as

5 opposed to a nod or a shake of the head. That

6 makes it easier for Denise to record what your

7 answer is and for the transcript to be clear.

8 Okay?

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. If I ask a question that you don't hear or you

11 don't understand for any reason, I may ask it

12 poorly, please just let me know that you didn't

13 hear me or you don't understand and I'm happy

14 to rephrase the question. Okay?

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. If during the course of the deposition you may

17 realize that you stated something incorrectly

18 earlier or you remembered additional

19 information that you want to add about

20 something you said earlier, that's completely

21 fine. If that happens, just let me know and

22 we'll go back to whatever that topic or

23 question was and make sure you can complete

24 your testimony. Okay?

25 A. Okay.




4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 Q. And we'll be taking breaks periodically, but if2 you need a break at any time, that's fine, just3 let me know. And the only thing I would ask,4 if there's a question pending that you answer5 the question before we take a break. Okay?6 A. Okay.7 Q. So I'm going to start with just a little basic8 background information.9 What did you -- what did you do to

10 prepare for the deposition today?11 A. I met with both counsel here today.12 Q. Okay. And that was today that you met with13 them?14 A. No. It was this week.15 Q. Okay. Was there anybody else present at that16 meeting?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Who else was there?19 A. Ms. Portia Manley and Ms. Tracy Bucholtz.20 Q. Have you read any of the transcripts from any21 of the other depositions taken in this case?22 A. Yes.23 Q. Which ones did you read?24 A. Ms. Webb.25 Q. Any others?

14

1 A. No.

2 Q. Other than the transcript, did you review any

3 documents to prepare for today's deposition?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember what you reviewed?

6 A. A few of the exhibits.

7 Q. Okay. Anything else?

8 A. Not that I can recall.

9 Q. Okay. Do you remember which exhibits you

10 looked at?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Other than the meeting with your attorneys and

13 Ms. Manley and Ms. Bucholtz, did you talk with

14 anybody else about the deposition?

15 A. No, I didn't.

16 Q. You're currently employed by the North Carolina

17 DOT; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How long have you been working for the DOT?

20 A. 14 years.

21 Q. What's your current position at DOT?

22 A. Assistant director of field services.

23 Q. And is that part of the Division of Motor

24 Vehicles?

25 A. Yes.

15

1 Q. How long have you held that position?

2 A. Since June 7, 2014.

3 Q. What were you doing at DOT before then?

4 A. I worked in the Office of Civil Rights.

5 Q. How long were you in that office?

6 A. I don't know exactly how long.

7 Q. That's okay. Roughly?

8 A. So approximately a year and a half.

9 Q. So about mid 2013 to mid 2014?

10 A. I went October, it was October of 2011.

11 Q. Okay. So October 2011?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you in the Office of Civil Rights until

14 June of 2014?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. What did you do in that office?

17 A. I worked as an ADA coordinator.

18 Q. Before you worked in the Office of Civil

19 Rights, what were you doing before that?

20 A. I worked at DMV as an administrative hearing

21 officer.

22 Q. Okay. And how long did you have that job?

23 A. I don't know exactly how long it was. Maybe

24 two and a half years.

25 Q. Okay. What did you do as an administrative

16

1 hearing officer?

2 A. I was responsible for overseeing the hearing

3 officers in the central region for the Division

4 of Motor Vehicles.

5 Q. Okay. What does that mean?

6 A. The administrative hearing officers would

7 review cases for people who had lost or had

8 suspended driver's license, revoked driver's

9 license, they conducted hearings to see if they

10 could be restored.

11 Q. And what was your role as the person who was

12 overseeing those hearing officers?

13 A. Just to manage employees to ensure that they

14 were adhering to policies and procedures.

15 Q. What were the policies and procedures that

16 you're referring to?

17 A. Motor Vehicle Law Chapter 20.

18 Q. Other than the statute, were there other

19 policies or procedures that they were required

20 to comply with?

21 A. Internal policies and procedures.

22 Q. How were those internal policies communicated?

23 A. To the best of my recollection, via memo,

24 e-mail blast.

25 Q. Do you remember anything else?




5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17


2 Q. Are there administrative regulations that they

3 have to comply with also?

4 A. I can't recall.

5 Q. Okay. That's fine. So let's return to the

6 present time in your current position at DMV.

7 You said you were assistant director of

8 field services; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who reports to you?

11 A. The regional chief driver's license offices.

12 Q. Okay. Anybody else?

13 A. The employees up under them report to them. So

14 those are my three direct reports.

15 Q. There are three regional chiefs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who did you report to?

18 A. I currently report to Ms. Portia Manley.

19 Q. Did you previously report to someone else?

20 A. Ms. Webb.

21 Q. Do you remember when that transition happened?

22 A. I don't.

23 Q. Can you tell me what your responsibilities are

24 in your current position?

25 A. My current responsibilities are to oversee the

18

1 driver's license offices across the State of2 North Carolina, the three chiefs are primarily3 responsible for making sure those offices are4 ran as they should be.5 Q. And so overseeing the driver's license offices,6 what does that involve?7 A. That involves the day-to-day operations of the8 offices, the examiners adhering to policies and9 procedures and things of that nature.

10 Q. Anything else?11 A. Just general overall day-to-day operations.12 Q. Do you spend time in the driver's license13 offices?14 A. I occasionally go out to the field.15 Q. Okay. When you say occasionally, about how16 often?17 A. I've only been out to the field maybe three18 times.19 Q. So does that mean you're mostly at DMV20 headquarters?21 A. Yes.22 Q. You've been out to the field about three times23 since you started this position --24 A. Approximately.25 Q. -- last June?

19

1 A. Approximately.

2 Q. So how do you typically communicate with the

3 regional chiefs?

4 A. Meetings, phone conferences and e-mails, in

5 person.

6 Q. Where are the regional chiefs stationed?

7 A. One is in the central, one is in the east and

8 one is in the west.

9 Q. So their offices are not at DMV headquarters

10 with you?

11 A. No, ma'am.

12 Q. Do you ever communicate with the district

13 supervisors?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And how do you typically do that?

16 A. E-mail, in person, phone conferences.

17 Q. Okay. Where would the in-person meetings

18 occur?

19 A. They would occur at DMV headquarters; if we

20 have training, in training sessions.

21 Q. Other than training sessions, do you have any

22 other occasion to interact face-to-face with

23 the district supervisors?

24 A. At meetings.

25 Q. Okay. And those meetings are also at DMV

20

1 headquarters?2 A. Yes.3 Q. So the district supervisors come into the4 headquarters periodically; is that right?5 A. Yes.6 Q. What about the individual examiners, do you7 interact with them?8 A. Not a lot.9 Q. In your current position, do you have any

10 responsibility for the DMV's implementation of11 the voter ID program?12 A. Can you rephrase that question.13 Q. Sure. Are you familiar with HB 589, the14 statute -- the bill, I should say?15 A. I'm going to say no.16 Q. Do you know what I'm referring to if I say17 HB 589?18 A. No.19 Q. Okay. Or VIVA.20 A. Yes.21 Q. What does VIVA mean to you?22 A. VIVA means to me the voter -- the free voter23 ID --24 Q. Okay.25 A. -- and the process that is involved with it.




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 Q. Okay. And so what I am wondering is in your

2 role as assistant director of field services,

3 do you have any involvement with the DMV's

4 implementation of that free voter ID process?

5 A. I don't understand that question.

6 Q. Okay. Let me try again.

7 When you're working with the regional

8 chiefs or the district supervisors, does any of

9 that work have to do with the free voter ID?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And how does that typically come up?

12 A. In meetings.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. A review of the document that was implemented

15 before I got to the department, conversations

16 with the chiefs, the districts, the director.

17 Q. Okay. What's the document that was implemented

18 before?

19 A. The VIVA memo.

20 Q. Okay. So you're continuing to talk about that

21 document with the field services staff today?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. So I'd like to ask you a few questions

24 just about driver's licenses generally before

25 we get into more detail on the voter ID

22

1 process.2 Do you have to be a US citizen to get a3 driver's license in North Carolina?4 A. I don't understand that question.5 Q. Can a non-citizen get a driver's license from6 the DMV?7 A. Yes.8 Q. Does the driver's license for a non-citizen9 look any different from a driver's license for

10 a US citizen?11 A. I'm not sure.12 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you a document that13 was previously marked as Exhibit 218, and it's14 in this giant binder that is too cumbersome.15 We can take it, just let me know.16 Have you seen this --17 MR. FARR: What number is that?18 MS. RYAN: 218.19 BY MS. RYAN:20 Q. Have you seen this document before?21 A. Yes.22 Q. What is it?23 A. It's the identification sheet, the required --24 the required identification sheet.25 Q. Okay.

23

1 A. Excuse me. Required document sheet.

2 Q. Okay. So am I right that for driver's license

3 applicants, they're required to provide two

4 forms of identity from Table 1 of Exhibit 218?

5 MR. FARR: Do you want to take that out

6 of the notebook? Would that be easier for you?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes.

8 MS. RYAN: Why don't we go off the

9 record for one second.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record at

11 10:25 a.m.

12 (Brief Interruption.)

13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on record at

14 10:29 a.m.

15 BY MS. RYAN:

16 Q. I'm going to take a step back and start with a

17 different question.

18 Are you familiar with the process for

19 issuing driver's licenses at DMV?

20 A. I am familiar, yes.

21 Q. Okay. And are you familiar with this document

22 that's been marked as Exhibit 218?

23 A. Somewhat.

24 Q. Okay. Is it your understanding that

25 individuals who come in to apply for a

24

1 North Carolina driver's license are required to2 present two forms of identification from3 Table 1?4 A. Yes.5 Q. And Table 1 lists 12 types of documents that6 the DMV will accept to prove identity; is that7 right?8 A. Yes.9 Q. Do you know what happens if the name on a

10 document that an individual presents to prove11 their identity doesn't match that individual's12 current name?13 MR. FARR: Objection to form.14 You can answer the question if you can.15 THE WITNESS: Ask me the question16 again, please.17 BY MS. RYAN:18 Q. Sure. If I came into the DMV and I said, My19 name is Elizabeth Ryan but I present, say, a20 birth certificate with a different name on it,21 would I be able to use that birth certificate22 as proof of identity?23 MR. FARR: Objection to form.24 THE WITNESS: I think so.25 BY MS. RYAN:




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 Q. Okay. Would I be required to produce a

2 document to document the name change?

3 A. I don't understand that question. Can you

4 rephrase.

5 Q. Sure. So I'm sort of imagining a woman who

6 changed her name when she married so her --

7 maybe her old driver's license has her maiden

8 name on it but she now uses her husband's name,

9 and so if she comes in with -- and she's

10 applying for a North Carolina driver's license

11 but her proof of identity has a different name

12 on it, will the DMV accept that document with a

13 different name on it?

14 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.

15 THE WITNESS: I'm still not clear on

16 your question.

17 BY MS. RYAN:

18 Q. Okay. I'm trying to figure out a different way

19 to ask it.

20 If I say my name is Elizabeth Ryan and

21 I provide proof of identity with a document

22 that says my name is Elizabeth McGregor, will

23 the DMV accept that document as proof of my

24 identity?

25 MR. FARR: Objection.

26

1 THE WITNESS: I'm a bit confused with

2 the question you're asking me.

3 BY MS. RYAN:

4 Q. Sure.

5 A. So I don't want to answer the question

6 incorrectly. I don't really understand your

7 question.

8 Q. Okay. Which part do you not understand?

9 A. The documents that you're saying you're

10 presenting. You said you had a document and

11 then you said "if I said my name was," so I'm

12 not really sure what you're trying to ask me,

13 saying and what document.

14 Q. Okay. So Table 2 -- excuse me -- Table 1 of

15 Exhibit 218 says an individual applying for a

16 driver's license must present two documents to

17 prove their identity; is that right?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 Q. If I come in with two documents and one of them

20 says my name is Elizabeth Ryan and the other

21 says my name is Elizabeth McGregor, will DMV

22 issue me a driver's license?

23 A. DMV will go through the process of verifying

24 your identity.

25 Q. Okay. And what does that mean?

27

1 A. If you have two documents -- I don't know what

2 your documents are -- you have a driver's

3 license with your new name on it, because you

4 gave the example of someone being married, and

5 then you come in with a birth certificate and

6 it's different, DMV would ask you to provide

7 your Social Security number.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. You would provide your Social Security number

10 and we would ask you to provide your marriage

11 license because you have a driver's license

12 that has one name on it, if that is a document

13 that we're using, and you have, you said, a

14 birth certificate, I believe, and it's a

15 different name, so we would go through the

16 process of trying to verify your identity.

17 Q. So what would you do with the Social Security

18 number?

19 A. Social Security number would be entered into

20 the system, automated driver's license system

21 that we call SADLS.

22 Q. Okay. And how do you use that to verify my

23 identity?

24 A. SADLS hits up against the Social Security

25 Administration to see if we are able to verify

28

1 your name, your date of birth and your Social.

2 Q. I see. Do you run the full nine-digit Social

3 Security number?

4 A. They enter the complete Social, yes.

5 Q. Will they accept just the last four digits of a

6 Social or are the full nine digits required?

7 A. Based on this document, it says provide your

8 Social. It doesn't indicate the last four. It

9 says provide your Social. So we would need

10 your Social, your entire Social.

11 Q. So are you saying that just based on your

12 reading of Exhibit 218 or is that your

13 understanding of DMV policy?

14 A. That's what my understanding is.

15 Q. In this scenario we've just been talking about,

16 would I have to provide you a copy of the

17 marriage license to document the name change?

18 MR. FARR: Objection to form.

19 You can answer if you can.

20 THE WITNESS: Ask me the question

21 again.

22 BY MS. RYAN:

23 Q. Do I have to have a document that shows I got

24 married and changed my name?

25 A. It depends.




8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 Q. What does it depend on?

2 A. The verification through SADLS and the Social

3 Security Administration.

4 Q. Okay. In what circumstances would I not need

5 to have a document?

6 A. If it verifies in SADLS, I would verify that

7 your name is what it appears to be on your

8 driver's license through the Social Security

9 Administration, so I verified your identity.

10 Q. Okay. And in what circumstances would a

11 document showing the name change be required?

12 A. If it did not verify in SADLS with the Social

13 Security Administration.

14 Q. Meaning if the name on the driver's license did

15 not verify with the Social Security

16 Administration?


18 THE WITNESS: The name, the Social and

19 the date of birth.

20 BY MS. RYAN:

21 Q. All three data points must verify?

22 A. To the best of my knowledge, I believe that's

23 correct.

24 Q. Okay. I just want to make sure I'm

25 understanding it correctly. I think what

30

1 you're saying is if -- if I'm using a driver's

2 license as one of my two documents from Table 1

3 and the name on that driver's license verifies

4 through the Social Security Administration and

5 my date of birth and my Social Security number

6 verify with the Social Security Administration,

7 then I would not need to provide proof of the

8 name change, documentary proof of the name

9 change? Did I get that right?

10 A. If you provided the three documents that we

11 discussed or the -- you said the driver's

12 license, the birth certificate and your Social

13 and it verified in SADLS with the Social

14 Security Administration, the additional

15 document would not be required.

16 Q. Okay. And in that circumstance it would be

17 okay that one of my documents said Elizabeth

18 McGregor and the other said Elizabeth Ryan?

19 A. To the best of my knowledge, I believe that's

20 correct.

21 Q. Are middle names required to match between

22 documents?

23 A. Ask me that again.

24 Q. I'm running out of names to use myself as an

25 example because I did not change my name when I

31

1 got married, so I'm struggling to come up with

2 another example.

3 But does the DMV need to verify first

4 name, middle name and last name?

5 A. The full name is required.

6 Q. Okay. Go ahead.

7 A. Unless your middle name is A. If A is your

8 middle name, then that is your middle name, so

9 the full name is required.

10 Q. Okay. So if my driver's license has my full

11 first name, middle name, last name and any

12 piece of that doesn't match with the Social

13 Security Administration, is that not verified

14 then?

15 A. We would ask for additional documentation.

16 Q. Okay. The DMV charges fees for issuance of a

17 driver's license; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it's -- for individuals who are under 65,

20 it's $32 for a driver's license; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And for people who are 65 and over it's $20?

23 A. I believe that's correct.

24 Q. Does DMV waive driver's license fees for people

25 who can't afford the fee?

32

1 A. Not to my knowledge.

2 Q. If you take a look at Exhibit 218, Table 9,

3 it's on the second page at the bottom, which

4 says Proof of Insurance, if you're coming in

5 for a driver's license, do you have to provide

6 proof of insurance even if you're not

7 registering a vehicle?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So the insurance requirement applies

10 just to everybody who's applying for a driver's

11 license?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Do you know what a fleet vehicle is?

14 A. I'm not really sure what it is.

15 Q. Okay. Do you have any idea?

16 A. A part of a number of vehicles. I would think

17 that's what a fleet is, one of many vehicles.

18 Q. I've seen it -- I didn't bring a document with

19 me. I've seen it referred to in some of the

20 DMV materials about you limiting driving to

21 fleet vehicles. Do you have any idea what that

22 refers to?

23 A. I'm not really sure what it refers to.

24 Q. Okay. When an individual goes into the DMV for

25 a driver's license, it's my understanding that




9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 they don't walk out that very day with the

2 license in their hand; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They leave with a temporary driving

5 certificate?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Does the temporary driving certificate

8 have a photo on it?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Are there -- does DMV plan to add a photo to

11 the temporary driving certificate?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what the timeline is for that

14 addition?

15 A. I do not.

16 Q. You don't know when they'll start having photos

17 on them?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Do you have -- do you know whether they expect

20 that to start happening in 2015?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Okay. We've been talking about driver's

23 license specifically for -- DMV also issues

24 non-operator ID cards, right?

25 A. Yes.

34

1 Q. What does an individual who applies for a

2 non-operator ID card, what do they walk out of

3 DMV with on that day?

4 A. A receipt upon request.

5 Q. Is the -- does the receipt have a photo on it?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Do you know whether DMV has any plans to add a

8 photo to the receipt?

9 A. No, not the receipt. I don't think there are

10 plans to add a photo to the receipt.

11 Q. Okay. And you said the receipt is issued upon

12 request. Is the temporary driving certificate

13 issued automatically?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm going to back up for one second. We were

16 talking about the -- my painful hypothetical

17 about the woman with the name change and we

18 were -- we were talking about driver's license

19 applicants.

20 Would the same process apply for a

21 person applying for a non-operator ID card?

22 A. You said the process. Yes, I believe it would.

23 Yes.

24 Q. An individual applying for a driver's license

25 has to come into a DMV office; is that right?

35

1 A. It depends.

2 Q. Okay. What does it depend on?

3 A. If you're applying for the first time, yes.

4 Q. Okay. In what circumstances would you not have

5 to come into a DMV office?

6 A. If you're applying for a duplicate license.

7 Q. Can you apply for a duplicate license online?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you apply for a duplicate non-operator ID

10 online?

11 A. I don't think so. I don't know.

12 Q. Okay. Do you know whether you can apply for a

13 duplicate voter ID online?

14 A. You cannot.

15 MR. FARR: What was the answer? I

16 didn't hear you.

17 THE WITNESS: You asked if I could

18 apply for a duplicate voter ID. Is it with

19 DMV? Are you talking about with DMV or are you

20 talking about with the State Board of

21 Elections?

22 BY MS. RYAN:

23 Q. With DMV?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I'm sorry.

36

1 A. I'm sorry.

2 Q. So you're saying an individual cannot apply for

3 a duplicate voter ID online from DMV?

4 A. No, they cannot.

5 Q. And I think you said with respect to the other

6 forms of non-operator ID you weren't sure

7 whether you could get a duplicate online.


9 Q. But driver's license you can apply for a

10 duplicate online?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know how -- do you -- when you do the

13 duplicate process online, do you receive

14 anything immediately that you can print out to

15 use in place of the driver's license?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. So there's -- there's not an equivalent

18 of the temporary driving certificate for the

19 online duplicate process?

20 A. No.

21 Q. About how long does it take for duplicates to

22 be mailed out to customers who request them

23 online?

24 A. I'm not sure.

25 Q. Have you heard of any problems with delays in




10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 the mailing of duplicate licenses that were

2 requested online?

3 A. I have not.

4 Q. Can you renew a driver's license online?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Does DMV have plans to begin offering online

7 renewal for driver's licenses?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know when that is scheduled to take

10 effect?

11 A. I do not, no.

12 Q. Do you know whether it's scheduled to take

13 effect in 2015?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Does -- can you renew a non-operator ID online?

16 A. I'm not sure.

17 Q. What about a voter ID, can a voter ID be

18 renewed online?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Does DMV have any plans to begin online renewal

21 of voter ID?

22 A. I'm not sure.

23 Q. Going back to duplicates for a second, am I

24 right there's a $10 fee for duplicate driver's

25 licenses?

38

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there also a $10 fee for duplicate

3 non-operator IDs?

4 A. Ask me the question again, please, or rephrase.

5 Q. Sure, sure. For the -- you might get a

6 duplicate if you lost your driver's license,

7 right?

8 A. Right. Yes.

9 Q. And you might get a duplicate non-operator ID

10 if you lost your non-operator ID, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Would there be a charge for the issuance of the

13 duplicate non-operator ID?

14 MR. FARR: Is this the no-fee ID or the

15 non-operator ID?

16 BY MS. RYAN:

17 Q. So my understanding is there are a few

18 non-operator IDs where DMV doesn't charge a fee

19 for issuance; is that right?

20 A. You're talking about an ID card?

21 Q. Uh-huh.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And then there's a regular non-operator ID that

24 DMV does charge a fee for; is that correct?

25 A. I don't understand your question.

39

1 Q. Okay. Does the DMV ever charge a fee for a

2 non-operator ID card?

3 A. You say non-operator, I'm getting confused.

4 For an ID card, there is a $10

5 duplicate fee.

6 Q. Okay. And that does not apply to a no-fee ID

7 card?

8 A. It's no-fee.

9 Q. Okay. So there's no $10 duplicate fee for the

10 no-fee ID cards?


12 Q. For an individual who already has a

13 North Carolina driver's license but they change

14 their name for whatever reason and they want to

15 update their North Carolina driver's license

16 with their new name, what is the process for

17 doing that?

18 A. A name change?

19 Q. Uh-huh.

20 A. They would be required to bring in a document

21 to support the name change.

22 Q. So that individual would have to appear in

23 person at a driver's license office?

24 A. You can do a name change online --

25 Q. Okay.

40

1 A. -- I believe.

2 Q. What sort of document can the person provide to

3 support the name change?

4 A. If you're changing your name based on marriage,

5 your marriage license. If you're going through

6 the court to do it, a court document.

7 Q. Okay. How do you -- how do you -- how does the

8 individual prove the name change if they do it

9 online?

10 A. I'm not sure. I want to go back to the

11 question you asked if they could do it online.

12 I said I believe so, but I'm not really sure.

13 Q. Okay. I think I saw somewhere that there is an

14 option for completing an affidavit if you need

15 to do a name change. Is that your

16 understanding?

17 A. I believe, yes.

18 Q. Do you know if there's an additional fee for

19 relying on the affidavit?

20 A. I believe it's a $2 fee.

21 Q. Okay. A name change is considered a duplicate;

22 is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So for any of the fee-based cards there would

25 be a $10 fee for the name change?




11 (Pages 41 to 44)

41

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So if an individual comes into a driver's

3 license office to do the name change, does she

4 walk out that day with the new driver's license

5 reflecting the name change?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What does she walk out with?

8 A. For a driver's license, a temporary driving

9 certificate.

10 Q. Okay. And for an ID card, would it be the

11 receipt?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If a person needing to do the name change

14 relied on the affidavit instead of providing a

15 document proving the name change, you said it's

16 a $2 fee for using the affidavit?

17 A. I believe that's true.

18 Q. And that applies for driver's license, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Would it also apply to the fee-based ID cards?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know whether if you're doing a name

23 change for a no-fee ID, would you still have to

24 pay that $2 affidavit fee?

25 A. I don't think you would.

42

1 Q. When an individual comes into a driver's

2 license office to do a name change, does the

3 DMV update the person's voter registration

4 information?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How does that process happen?

7 A. I haven't seen the system in a while, but the

8 examiner would go through the process, it's a

9 part of the screen and would ask them, Would

10 you like to register to vote or Would you like

11 to update your voter registration.

12 Q. Okay. And if the individual does want to

13 update her voter registration, does she have to

14 complete a new voter registration form?

15 A. It's an application. She would have to sign an

16 application.

17 Q. An application to register to vote?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you have to complete the entire form as

20 if it were a new application?

21 A. Ask me your question again, please.

22 Q. Sure. When you just want to update your name,

23 do you have to complete the full application

24 for voter registration?

25 A. If there are no changes, no. If you'd like to

43

1 make changes, there's an application that is

2 generated from SADLS and you'd have to sign

3 your -- your application noting the change.

4 Q. Okay. So SADLS inputs the data?

5 A. The examiner enters the information into SADLS.

6 Q. Uh-huh. And then SADLS generates the form with

7 the information already populated?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Do you know if an individual does a name

10 change online, can she update her voter

11 registration?

12 A. I'm not sure that they can do the name change

13 online.

14 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say, then, you're also

15 not sure whether they can update voter

16 registration through that process?

17 A. I'm not understanding that question. Can you

18 repeat that.

19 Q. Sure.

20 MR. FARR: She doesn't know if she can

21 update it online. I don't know how she could

22 answer that.

23 MS. RYAN: Yeah.

24 BY MS. RYAN:

25 Q. Do you know whether DMV offers customers the

44

1 ability to update their voter registration2 through DMV's online services?3 A. I do not.4 Q. Okay. When you're ordering a duplicate5 driver's license, can you update your voter6 registration through that process online?7 A. No, you cannot.8 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say in order to update9 your voter registration information, you have

10 to come into a DMV office?11 A. For DMV services, yes.12 Q. Do you know whether -- if an individual has a13 driver's license and the name on the driver's14 license does not match that person's name on15 the voter rolls, would that driver's license be16 able to be used for voting?17 MR. FARR: Objection to the form, calls18 for a legal conclusion.19 BY MS. RYAN:20 Q. You can answer.21 A. Can you rephrase the question.22 Q. Sure. If I have a driver's license and the23 name on my driver's license doesn't match the24 name -- my name on the voter rolls, can I still25 use that driver's license at a polling place to




12 (Pages 45 to 48)

45

1 vote?


3 THE WITNESS: I don't know.

4 BY MS. RYAN:

5 Q. If I need to update my address on my driver's

6 license, is that also considered a duplicate?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And so is it a $10 fee for any duplicate?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. FARR: Any duplicate of a driver's

11 license?

12 BY MS. RYAN:

13 Q. For any of the fee-based credentials, it's a

14 $10 fee for a duplicate?

15 A. It's $10 for a duplicate license, $10 for an ID

16 card.

17 Q. Okay. When an individual comes into a DMV

18 office to update their address, does DMV update

19 the individual's voter registration as well?

20 A. The question is asked.

21 Q. Is it the same process that we just discussed

22 for name changes, for updating the voter

23 registration?

24 A. In the office?

25 Q. Uh-huh.

46

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you update your address online?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if you do that, you will not have the

5 option to update your voter registration

6 online?


8 THE WITNESS: No.

9 MS. RYAN: Why don't we take a short

10 break.

11 MR. FARR: Okay.


13 11 o'clock a.m.

14 (Brief Recess.)


16 11:09 a.m.

17 BY MS. RYAN:

18 Q. Ms. Boyd Malette, I understand you wanted to

19 clarify something.

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Go ahead.

22 A. When we were talking about the online process

23 and you asked about the ability to register to

24 vote, I was unsure and unclear of the question

25 you were asking.

47

1 When you were doing a duplicate process

2 online, there is a link that links you from

3 DMV's website to the State Board of Elections

4 which then does offer the applicant or the

5 customer the ability to register through SBOE.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know what that link links to

7 specifically?

8 A. I believe it links to the State Board of

9 Elections. I don't know specifically where or

10 what it looks like.

11 Q. Okay. And that was for the online duplicate

12 request --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- for a driver's license?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is the same true for an online duplicate

17 request for an ID card?

18 A. I recall me saying I do not remember if you can

19 do an ID card online.

20 Q. Okay. I'm going to transition to a slightly

21 different topic.

22 So it's my understanding that driver's

23 licenses can be suspended; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And that there are a variety of reasons why a

48

1 driver's license might be suspended; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know whether a driver's license could be

5 suspended for a lapse in insurance?

6 A. I'm not sure.

7 Q. I understand that the DMV sends letters to

8 individuals whose driver's license has been

9 suspended; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Are you familiar with any of these letters?

12 A. I haven't seen them in a while, so no.

13 Q. Have you ever seen any of them?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'd like to mark an exhibit.

16 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiffs' Exhibit 476 was

17 marked for identification.)

18 BY MS. RYAN:

19 Q. I'm just going to give you a minute to look it

20 over.

21 MR. FARR: 476?

22 THE REPORTER: Yes.

23 MS. RYAN: Tom, is the Bates number cut

24 off on your version or do we have --

25 MR. FARR: I think it's on mine.




13 (Pages 49 to 52)

49

1 MS. RYAN: Good. On my printout -- I'm

2 not that skilled.

3 MR. FARR: Do you want to see what

4 number it is?

5 MS. RYAN: Make sure I got it right.

6 Yeah.

7 BY MS. RYAN:

8 Q. All set?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So I've handed you Exhibit 476. Do you know

11 what this document is?

12 A. I do not.

13 Q. Okay. Have you seen -- does it look familiar

14 at all? Have you seen anything that looks like

15 this before?


17 Q. So this was produced as part of the DOT's

18 production in this case.

19 Does it look to you like this is a

20 letter that DMV would send out to a customer

21 whose license was suspended?

22 MR. FARR: I'm not sure how she can

23 answer the question.

24 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure

25 because I'm not -- I can't say I've really seen

50

1 this, so I don't know.

2 BY MS. RYAN:

3 Q. You're not sure?

4 A. I'm not sure.

5 Q. Okay. When you were working as -- when you

6 were reviewing the hearing officers, did you

7 ever have occasion to look at the documentation

8 that DMV sent to customers whose licenses were

9 suspended?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Okay. And is it your recollection that

12 generally when a license has been suspended

13 that there's a fee for restoration of the

14 license?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does that fee vary or is it consistent?

17 A. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Okay. What's your recollection of what the

19 restoration fee is?

20 A. $50 in some cases. Like I said, I'm not really

21 sure because I believe fees have changed, so

22 I'm not sure what the fees currently are.

23 Q. Okay. And the restoration fee, is that in

24 addition to any licensing fees for issuance of

25 the new license?

51

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. I understand that individuals whose

3 licenses have been suspended may have to turn

4 them in to DMV. Is that your understanding?

5 A. From this letter, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Other than what you read in Exhibit 476,

7 do you know whether individuals who have had

8 their driver's license suspended have to turn

9 the license in?

10 A. Ask me that again. I'm sorry.

11 Q. Sure. Do you have any independent knowledge

12 other than what you saw in this letter of

13 whether an individual whose driver's license

14 was suspended, whether that individual has to

15 turn the license in?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. Okay. If you look at the -- I think it's five

18 paragraphs down about the middle of the page in

19 Exhibit 476, the paragraph that starts with if

20 you've not complied with this citation by the

21 effective date of this order, you'll be -- you

22 will be required to mail your current

23 North Carolina driver's license, if applicable,

24 to the division, and then it says "Failure to

25 do so may result in an additional $50 service

52

1 fee."

2 Do you have any idea what that's

3 referring to?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Going up to the first paragraph in Exhibit 476,

6 which says, "Your North Carolina driving

7 privilege is scheduled for an indefinite

8 suspension" and it cites a general statute for

9 failure to pay a fine, do you know what this

10 suspension is for?

11 A. I do not.

12 Q. Okay. You don't know what that refers to in

13 that first paragraph of the letter?

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. What do you remember about the reasons why a

16 driver's license might be suspended?

17 A. The driver's license suspension part is an

18 adjudication process, and I don't recall a lot

19 of that process. That's in adjudications, not

20 driver's license.

21 Q. Okay. Do you remember any of the reasons why

22 somebody's driver's license might be suspended?

23 A. For speeding, failure to pay fine as indicated

24 on this letter here, DWI.

25 Q. Do you know what kind of fines somebody could




14 (Pages 53 to 56)

53

1 have their license suspended for not paying?

2 A. It's an adjudication process, so I don't

3 recall, no.

4 Q. Do you know whether an individual could have

5 their driver's license suspended for failure to

6 pay child support?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Is it correct that a suspended driver's license

9 can't be used for driving a vehicle?

10 A. No.

11 Q. It's not correct or -- that was probably my

12 fault for asking a bad question.

13 Can a suspended driver's license be

14 used for driving a vehicle?

15 MR. FARR: Object to the form, but you

16 can answer it if you can.

17 THE WITNESS: Legally no.

18 BY MS. RYAN:

19 Q. And is it correct that a law enforcement

20 officer can confiscate a suspended license?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Could an individual's -- I'm sorry, let me

23 start over.

24 If a driver's license is suspended

25 while it's in suspended status, can it be

54

1 renewed?2 A. Ask me again, please. Rephrase the question.3 Q. Can you renew a driver's license that's4 expiring if it's in suspended status?5 A. No.6 Q. So I understand that in SADLS there are --7 there are codes that tell you what an8 individual -- individual's driver status is.9 Is that your understanding?

10 A. Yes.11 Q. I'm going to hand you Exhibit 210. This is a12 previously marked exhibit, and it starts with a13 long e-mail thread. It's an e-mail that I --14 I'm Elizabeth Ryan, I received this from15 counsel for Governor McCrory and there's an16 attachment to this document which is what I17 wanted to ask you about, excuse me, an18 attachment to the e-mail.19 So if you flip a few pages back, it --20 the attachment begins with United States v21 North Carolina. Yes, that's it. I'm sorry22 there aren't page numbers on this part of the23 exhibit.24 MR. FARR: It's the last four pages.25 MS. RYAN: One, two -- last three

55

1 pages, it looks like.

2 THE WITNESS: I only have two, an

3 e-mail.

4 BY MS. RYAN:

5 Q. Let me see. Are they double-sided?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. There you go. So this attachment is a series

8 of questions and answers and they were

9 questions that we asked the defendants and DOT

10 provided answers, and that's what this document

11 is, through counsel.

12 So I wanted to ask you about the second

13 to last page, Question and Answer Number 4.

14 MR. FARR: Have you asked her if she's

15 seen this before?

16 MS. RYAN: I haven't asked her that.

17 MR. FARR: Okay.

18 BY MS. RYAN:

19 Q. This -- under Question 4 there's a list of A

20 through J. Are these the driver status codes?

21 A. I'm not familiar with the codes.

22 Q. Okay. So you don't know what the codes in

23 SADLS are?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. I've sometimes heard of a driver's

56

1 license being revoked. Do you know how that

2 would be reflected in SADLS?


4 Let me clarify. If it's in SADLS, if

5 I'm an examiner looking at the screen, it shows

6 revoked or suspended, but as far as a table, I

7 don't know what it looks like.

8 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say in terms of these

9 specific status codes, you don't know how --

10 what status a revoked license would have?

11 A. I don't know what these codes mean.

12 Q. So for -- you look like you're about to say

13 something.

14 A. I want to clarify something. I said I don't

15 know what these codes mean, but they tell what

16 the codes mean. So I don't really know what

17 they look like in SADLS. I don't know what it

18 looks like. This says 9 is 90 days but, so I

19 know what they mean looking at this, but in

20 SADLS, I don't know what they would look like.

21 Q. Okay. But you do know what -- for example,

22 I'll just take the first one on the list.

23 Eligible for reinstatement, you know what that

24 means in practice?

25 A. I know what it looks like in the system. If




15 (Pages 57 to 60)

57

1 I'm an examiner, I'm looking at a screen, it

2 says eligible to reinstate.

3 Q. Okay. And so -- so let me jump down to --

4 let's see one, two, three -- the fourth status

5 down for inactive, do you know what would cause

6 a driver's license to become inactive?

7 A. If I turned a driver's license in and get an ID

8 card, the driver's license is now inactive.

9 Q. Okay. Would anything else cause it to be

10 inactive?

11 A. Not that I can remember.

12 Q. Okay. If a customer turns in their driver's

13 license, does the DMV automatically issue an

14 ID?

15 A. Can you rephrase that.

16 Q. Sure. You just said, for example, if somebody

17 turned in their driver's license, it would

18 become inactive. In that circumstance, does

19 DMV automatically issue the person an ID card?

20 MR. FARR: I'll just object to the term

21 "automatically," but you can answer that

22 question.

23 THE WITNESS: If they turn in a

24 driver's license and request an identification

25 card, it would be issued upon request.

58

1 BY MS. RYAN:

2 Q. Okay. But the individual would have to request

3 an ID card?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When an individual's license is suspended for

6 some reason, does the DMV automatically issue

7 an ID card to that person?

8 MR. FARR: Objection for the same

9 reason, but go ahead.

10 THE WITNESS: The ID card would be

11 issued upon request.

12 BY MS. RYAN:

13 Q. Is it right that an inactive driver's license

14 wouldn't be valid for operating a car?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Answer 4, the first paragraph under -- where it

17 says "answer" in bold, in the second sentence

18 says "A North Carolina special ID card can only

19 be coded as either 1, active, or E, inactive."

20 Do you know what would cause a

21 North Carolina ID card to become inactive?

22 A. Excuse me, I don't see where you're reading

23 from. Can you tell me again.

24 Q. I'm sorry. About the mid of the page where it

25 says "answer" in bold, and right below that

59

1 where there's two sentences, the second2 sentence of that paragraph.3 A. Okay.4 Q. So the question is: Do you know what would5 cause an ID card to become inactive?6 A. I don't.7 Q. If a customer turns in their driver's license8 and requests an ID card, does the $10 fee apply9 in that circumstance, assuming they're not

10 requesting one of the no-fee ID cards?11 A. The cost for the ID would be required, yes.12 Q. So I'd like to transition to talking about13 VIVA, voter ID specifically a little bit more.14 So I think we're probably done with those two15 exhibits.16 So an individual who's applying for a17 voter ID card must appear in person at a18 driver's license office; is that right?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Do you know what a DCR is?21 A. Yes.22 Q. What is it?23 A. A Data Change Request.24 Q. Okay. And what does that mean?25 A. It's a request for information from IT or,

60

1 excuse me, a request for information from IT.

2 Q. Where does the information come from?

3 A. I believe SADLS.

4 Q. Okay. Have you ever submitted a DCR?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it something that you do frequently?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know how the -- so you -- it's a request

9 for information from IT; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then IT produces the information requested;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How does IT typically report the data?

15 A. It depends.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Most of the time it's raw data. Sometimes I

18 can request for it to be put into a

19 spreadsheet, but let me clarify. When I'm

20 looking or requesting a Data Change Request,

21 it's primarily for someone else, not for

22 myself.

23 Q. Okay. What -- so when you say it's mostly raw

24 data, I don't really understand what that

25 means.




16 (Pages 61 to 64)

61

1 A. Just general information that's coming from the

2 system, not formatted in a table.

3 Q. Okay.



6 BY MS. RYAN:

7 Q. So I've marked Exhibit 477. I'm sorry.

8 Do you know what this is?

9 A. The form is a Change Request, a Data Change

10 Request.

11 Q. So is this the form that DMV uses to request

12 data out of SADLS?

13 A. I believe it is. And I said data change and

14 this is data control, but I refer to it as Data

15 Change Request.

16 Q. Do you know what -- what information -- excuse

17 me -- is being requested in this DCR?

18 A. May I have a moment to read it.

19 Q. Of course. All set?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know what information is being requested

22 in this DCR?

23 A. The form indicates that they're looking to get

24 counts of actual voter IDs issued and then to

25 get counts of voter ID applications but not

62

1 issued.

2 Q. And does it -- am I right it looks like the

3 request was split into two separate requests?

4 A. Based on the form, yes.

5 Q. Have you seen this DCR before?

6 A. I cannot recall seeing this.

7 Q. Do you know whether you've seen the results of

8 this DCR?

9 A. I'm not sure. I can't recall.

10 Q. Okay. Do you remember a request for this data

11 coming through?

12 A. I do not. It's dated 3/20. I don't recall

13 seeing this, I don't.

14 Q. Okay. So I'm going to hand you one more

15 exhibit, 478.



18 BY MS. RYAN:

19 Q. Can you tell me what this document is,

20 Exhibit 478?

21 A. You mean the type of form this is?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. It says it's an Information Resource Document,

24 Data Control Request.

25 Q. And have you seen a form like this before?

63

1 A. I can't recall if I have.

2 Q. Okay. Do you know what it means that it's an

3 Information Resource Document?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know what these forms are used

6 for?

7 A. I'm not really familiar with the form.

8 Q. Okay. So it says in the big box under

9 "Process: Created DCR 1009B to get list of

10 customer IDs that obtained issued Voter ID

11 Cards" and "Created DCR 1009C to get list of

12 customer IDs that only applied for Voter ID

13 Cards" and then "Output data to be input into

14 Excel spreadsheet."

15 So am I right that this form in

16 Exhibit 478 relates to the DCR described in

17 Exhibit 477?

18 MR. FARR: If you know.

19 THE WITNESS: Ask me that question

20 again. I'm sorry.

21 BY MS. RYAN:

22 Q. Sure. So Exhibit 477, the DCR has a number; is

23 that right?

24 A. 477 does have a number.

25 Q. And it's DCR number 1009?

64

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And am I right that Exhibit 478 also relates to

3 this DCR number 1009?

4 A. Exhibit 478 has the same 1009 on it, yes.

5 Q. Okay. Okay.

6 (WHEREUPON, Plaintiffs' Exhibits 479

7 and 480 were marked for identification.)

8 MR. FARR: This is two copies?

9 MS. RYAN: Yes, one for you and one for

10 Wil.

11 MR. EPPSTEINER: The bigger document is

12 479?

13 MS. RYAN: Yes.

14 BY MS. RYAN:

15 Q. So I've handed you Exhibit 478 and 479.

16 THE REPORTER: 479 and 480.

17 MS. RYAN: I'm sorry. Thank you,

18 Denise.

19 BY MS. RYAN:

20 Q. 479, you see at the top it says DCR 1009

21 Report B - Issued Voter ID Cards.

22 Do you know what this Exhibit 479 is?

23 A. It looks like a report.

24 Q. Does it look like a report that's related to

25 this DCR 1009?




17 (Pages 65 to 68)

65

1 A. Based on the number that's here, it coincides

2 with the numbers that are listed on your

3 Exhibit 477, so I would assume that it's the

4 same.

5 Q. Okay. When you have submitted DCRs in the

6 past, do you sometimes receive the results in a

7 table like the one shown on Exhibit 479?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If you'll flip to Exhibit 480 and take a look

10 at that, can you tell me what that is?

11 A. This indicates it's an Application Only Voter

12 ID Cards report.

13 Q. And so is it your understanding that this

14 Exhibit 480 would be the results of the DCR

15 1009C?

16 A. Ask me that again. I'm sorry.

17 Q. Sure. Is Exhibit 480 the results of DCR 1009C?

18 A. It does have the same number as on the Data

19 Control Request.

20 Q. Is that how you would interpret that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And just to be clear for the record,

23 because I'm not sure whether I said it

24 correctly, Exhibit 479, does that look to you

25 like the results of DCR 1009B?

66

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Let's start by looking at 479,

3 Exhibit 479.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. Am I right -- you may need to look at

6 Exhibit 477 as well. And I'm just trying to

7 understand what this Exhibit 479 actually

8 represents. Am I right that it is the list of

9 voter ID issuances from January 1, 2014?

10 MR. FARR: If you know.


12 BY MS. RYAN:

13 Q. Okay. So if you look at 470 -- Exhibit 477 and

14 look at the original -- or the request that's

15 printed on Exhibit 477.

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Am I right that it requests all individuals who

18 completed an application and/or received an

19 application for a voter ID card since

20 January 1, 2014?

21 A. The question is? I'm sorry.

22 Q. So the request was for voter ID card issuances

23 from January 1, 2014; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the date of this DCR is what was received

67

1 on March 19th and approved on March 20th; is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. FARR: March 20th?

5 THE WITNESS: On this form 477, it says

6 dated received 3/19/2015, date approved

7 3/20/2015.

8 BY MS. RYAN:

9 Q. In your experience requesting data through this

10 process, would -- if you know, would the data

11 produced be current through the date of the

12 request?

13 A. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Okay. So looking at either Exhibit 477 or 478,

15 is there any way to know the date range of the

16 data that was ultimately produced?

17 A. Can you ask me the question again, please.

18 Q. Sure. I'm just trying to understand what data

19 was actually produced, and I understand that

20 Exhibit 479 is some of the data, and I wonder

21 is there any way to tell from these

22 Exhibits 477 and 478 what the date range of the

23 issuances is that's reflected in Exhibit 479.

24 MR. FARR: Again, if you have

25 knowledge. I mean, I don't even know if you

68

1 were involved in this. That question's not

2 been asked.

3 THE WITNESS: The -- I can't tell what

4 the date range is on here.

5 BY MS. RYAN:

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. I can't.

8 Q. And do you have any knowledge of what the date

9 range is of the issuances reflected in

10 Exhibit 479?

11 A. I can't tell from here, no.

12 Q. Okay. And is it correct that you also can't

13 tell by looking at Exhibit 477 or 478?

14 A. Ask me again the question. You're -- ask me

15 that again.

16 Q. So --

17 MR. FARR: Can we go off the record for

18 a second.

19 MS. RYAN: Sure.

20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off regard at

21 11:45 a.m.

22 (Brief Recess.)


24 11:48 a.m.

25 BY MS. RYAN:




18 (Pages 69 to 72)

69

1 Q. So going back to Exhibit 479, I think that you

2 said that it looks like this is -- these are

3 the results of DCR 1009B; is that right?

4 A. The number on here coincides with it on

5 Exhibit 479 coincides with the number on 477.

6 Q. Okay. And I apologize if I asked you this a

7 minute ago: Have you seen Exhibit 479 before?

8 A. I don't recall seeing it.

9 Q. Okay. And is it your understanding based on

10 this DCR process, this would be data from

11 SADLS; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. If you know, can you tell me what the

14 headers that run along the top of Exhibit 479

15 refer to?

16 A. The Customer ID, the sex, the race.

17 I am not sure what Form ID is. Let me

18 change that. Well, I'm not sure what Form ID

19 is. And it says Residency and then Station ID.

20 Q. So Customer ID, that's the customer's

21 identification number in SADLS; is that right?

22 A. Correct. Yes.

23 Q. And Sex refers to the sex of that particular

24 customer?

25 A. Yes.

70

1 Q. M stands for male?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. F for female?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Race, that refers to the race of that

6 particular customer; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And does B stand for black?

9 A. I think so.

10 Q. Do you know what "I" stands for?

11 A. I do not.

12 Q. Does W stand for white?

13 A. I think so.

14 Q. The Form ID, if you look at that column, do you

15 have any idea what that field -- what

16 information that field is giving us?

17 A. I don't want to speculate. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Yeah. So my understanding is that there is --

19 I don't know if it's called a field but a place

20 in the screen where the examiner records the

21 type of document that the customer presented to

22 prove their identity; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have any idea whether the Form ID might

25 be that data?

71

1 A. I'm not sure.

2 Q. Okay. Does it look like that to you based on

3 the information that's recorded there?


5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. I'm not

6 really sure.

7 BY MS. RYAN:

8 Q. How about the Residency field?

9 A. I don't know what that is, I'm sorry.

10 Q. Okay. And Station ID?

11 A. That is the station or the driver's license

12 office.

13 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any of the voter IDs

14 listed here were issued from mobile units?

15 A. I'm not -- I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know how you would determine that?

17 A. How I would determine?

18 Q. Whether any of these IDs were issued from a

19 mobile unit.

20 A. Each driver's license office and mobile unit

21 have IDs, and it would be represented by a

22 number assigned to the mobile unit or to the

23 driver's license office.

24 Q. Is that the Station ID column?

25 A. The Station ID column is the ID listed to

72

1 wherever this was issued.

2 Q. Okay. So you just said each driver's license

3 and mobile unit has an ID?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Are you referring to the Station ID?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know what the station IDs are for

8 the mobile units?

9 A. I do not.

10 Q. Okay. But are you saying that I could look at

11 the Station ID column and it would tell me the

12 location of the issuance; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that would be the case if it were issued

15 from a mobile unit as well?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So it's my understanding that for voter ID

18 customers, an examiner is allowed to issue a

19 voter ID to an applicant who presents only one

20 document proving their identity; is that right?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. You're not sure whether that's permitted?

23 A. Can you ask me the question again, please.

24 Q. Sure. And if it's helpful, feel free to look

25 at 218. So 218 is the list of the required




19 (Pages 73 to 76)

73

1 documents list, right?2 A. Yes.3 MR. FARR: Required documents for4 driver's license?5 MS. RYAN: Yes.6 BY MS. RYAN:7 Q. So what information is contained on8 Exhibit 218?9 A. It says Required Documents and it gives a list

10 of tables for each -- each type of -- like for11 this one, Table 1 is proof of age and identity,12 so it's the required documents.13 Q. And these documents are required for what?14 A. For driver's license and ID cards.15 Q. Okay. And as we talked about before for a16 driver's license applicant, Exhibit 218 says17 you have to present two forms of ID from18 Table 1; is that right?19 A. Yes.20 Q. It's my understanding that for voter ID21 applicants -- I guess why don't we flip to22 Table 4 of Exhibit 218 which says:23 "To obtain an ID card for voting24 purposes, you will need to provide two25 forms of identification from the list

74

1 of acceptable documents in Table 1."

2 Did I read that correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It's my understanding that DMV -- that --

5 excuse me -- an examiner is allowed to issue a

6 voter ID to an applicant who has only one

7 document to prove their identity; is that

8 correct?


10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure about that.

11 BY MS. RYAN:

12 Q. Do you know whether voter ID customers must

13 present two documents to prove their identity?

14 A. Can you ask me again, please.

15 Q. Sure. If an individual comes into a driver's

16 license office for a voter ID card, is that

17 individual required to present two documents

18 proving their identity in order to obtain the

19 ID card?

20 MR. FARR: You're asking about a no-fee

21 ID card?

22 MS. RYAN: Correct.

23 THE WITNESS: Based on this

24 information, it says two forms of

25 identification from the list of acceptable

75

1 documents in Table 1.

2 BY MS. RYAN:

3 Q. Okay. When -- when you're -- I think you said

4 earlier that you have meetings with the

5 regional chiefs sometimes; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And sometimes with the district supervisors?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I should -- generally when you're talking

10 with the regional chiefs, are you guys ever

11 talking about the voter ID process?

12 A. Occasionally.

13 Q. And do you ever talk with the district

14 supervisors about the voter ID process?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you ever -- or have you ever talked with

17 them about what documents a customer must

18 present in order to obtain a voter ID?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. What do you recall talking to them about

21 the voter ID process?

22 A. I recall talking to them about the VIVA memo

23 that I was made aware of, we discussed that

24 memo.

25 Q. About how many times have you talked with the

76

1 regional chiefs about the VIVA memo?

2 A. Have I talked to who -- ask me the question

3 again, please.

4 Q. About how many times have you talked to any of

5 the regional chiefs about the VIVA memo?

6 A. I don't recall how many times. Six, eight

7 times. I can't recall the number.

8 Q. Okay. And have you ever spoken with the

9 district supervisors about the VIVA memo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you recall about how many times?

12 A. I would say two, one in a face-to-face meeting

13 and then during a conference call.

14 Q. In the face-to-face meeting, what were you

15 talking about?

16 A. The VIVA memo, what it entailed.

17 Q. Okay. When was that?

18 A. I don't recall what date it was.

19 Q. Do you recall generally?

20 A. I want to say sometime in March.

21 Q. Of 2015?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you recall why you were talking to them

24 about the VIVA memo?

25 A. I was asked to have a conversation with them by




20 (Pages 77 to 80)

77

1 the deputy commissioner.

2 Q. Why?

3 A. To discuss the document that was -- all of the

4 requirements in it to ensure the examiners were

5 familiar with the VIVA document and they

6 understood what the document entailed.

7 Q. Okay. Was there anything that prompted that

8 discussion?

9 A. I was just asked to do it. I'm not really sure

10 what prompted it, but I was asked to have the

11 conversation with my chiefs and my district

12 supervisors.

13 Q. Okay. And I think you said there was a second

14 time in a conference call.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. It was after the initial face-to-face, I

18 believe, and it was to reiterate the process

19 and how examiners were to interface with our

20 customers when they came into the office with

21 respect to the no-fee ID, the voter ID.

22 Q. Okay. So that was after the face-to-face

23 meeting in March of 2015?

24 A. I believe so. I don't know -- let me restate.

25 I don't know if the conversation in

78

1 person came before the phone conference.

2 Q. Okay. And did you in either of those

3 conversations discuss what documents a voter ID

4 customer could present?

5 A. Not specifically, not the specific document.

6 We discussed the entire VIVA memo.

7 Q. Okay.

8 MR. FARR: Can we break pretty quickly?

9 MS. RYAN: Yes. Let me just take one

10 second. Yes, that's fine.

11 MR. FARR: We'll be back at 1:30.


13 12:01 p.m.

14 (Lunch Recess.)


16 1:40 p.m.

17 BY MS. RYAN:

18 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, we were talking about earlier

19 the three regional chiefs that report to you.

20 Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I think you said that the district

23 supervisors report to the regional chiefs,

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

79

1 Q. How many district supervisors are there?2 A. Currently there are 13.3 Q. Does that mean there are 13 DMV districts4 across the state?5 A. No.6 Q. How many districts are there?7 A. There are 14 districts.8 Q. And each supervisor is responsible for one9 district; is that right?

10 A. Yes.11 Q. And so what's the -- why are there only12 13 district supervisors?13 A. We had one to be promoted or transferred to14 another job and that other one is vacant.15 Q. The regional chiefs, do they report to anybody16 besides you?17 A. They report to me.18 Q. Only?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Okay. And the district supervisors, do they21 report only to the regional chiefs?22 A. When you say "only," can you clarify that just23 a little bit.24 Q. Sure. Are they reporting to anybody else25 besides the regional chiefs?

80

1 A. They report directly to the regional chiefs.

2 Q. Okay. You mentioned right before we broke for

3 lunch -- oh, sorry, go ahead.

4 A. No. Just breathing.

5 Q. Right before we broke for lunch, you mentioned

6 two meetings in around March of 2015 where I

7 think you said you met with the regional chiefs

8 and the district supervisors; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And one was in person and one was on the phone?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I should be clear. One meeting was in person

13 and one meeting was over the telephone, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at each of those two meetings, the purpose

16 of the meeting was to discuss voter ID; is that

17 right?

18 A. The purpose of the meeting was to meet to get

19 together to talk about all things, all things

20 related to driver license and it was a district

21 meeting, but we did discuss the memo during

22 those meetings, the meeting and the conference

23 call.

24 Q. Okay. When you say it was a district meeting,

25 what does that mean?




21 (Pages 81 to 84)

81

1 A. We have district supervisor meetings. We try

2 to have them every two months, every three

3 months, depending on what's going on with DMV,

4 to speak about things that are occurring in the

5 field and those things, new policies, new

6 procedures and things of that nature.

7 Q. And who attends those meetings?

8 A. Primarily the district supervisors and the

9 chiefs, myself, and we bring in guests

10 throughout the division, safety person, human

11 resources, the directors there, and

12 occasionally the commissioner and the deputy

13 commissioner will come in and speak. So we try

14 to bring a gamut of people in to discuss those

15 things that are going on throughout the

16 division.

17 Q. Okay. Other than the two meetings in March

18 that you mentioned, do you recall whether voter

19 ID was discussed at any of the other district

20 meetings since you took your current position?


22 Q. Okay. Do you participate in all of those

23 district meetings?

24 A. Unfortunately no.

25 Q. I'm sorry?

82

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. Okay. So there are district meetings that you

3 do not participate in?

4 A. There are some, yes.

5 Q. And what circumstances would you not

6 participate in one of these meetings?

7 A. I'm in other meetings with the commissioner,

8 the deputy, I'm away from the building, I'm on

9 vacation, just other meetings that would

10 require my attendance there.

11 Q. And in your absence, who -- who would be there

12 to fill your role, if anybody?

13 A. During these district meetings, there is a

14 chief that is responsible for conducting or

15 taking the lead over the meeting. The majority

16 of the time there are three chiefs there, but

17 there is a lead chief there to kind of

18 facilitate the meeting.

19 Q. Okay. And in the meetings when you're not able

20 to attend, are you made aware of what subjects

21 are covered in those meetings?

22 A. There is someone to scribe, so yes.

23 Q. Do you receive the notes from the meetings?

24 A. Yes. Let me restate that. Most of the time.

25 Q. Okay. What makes you say most of the time?

83

1 A. Prior to me having someone to come in and

2 scribe, there wasn't recordings of the meeting,

3 a written record of the meeting.

4 Q. When did you have somebody come in and take

5 notes?

6 A. The first meeting that I remember having

7 someone take notes would have been probably my

8 first -- probably -- I want to say the first --

9 like October, November -- November.

10 Q. And what happened that prompted you to start

11 having somebody take notes?

12 A. I was just used to having someone there and

13 noticed that someone wasn't taking notes.

14 Let me change that. I'm used to having

15 people take notes at meetings that I attend,

16 and I didn't see someone there and I asked for

17 someone to be there.

18 Q. Who did you ask to do that?

19 A. My assistant, Patty Polito, and she

20 interchanges with Teresa Crudup, who is also

21 admin assistant.

22 MR. FARR: Can I ask who's joined the

23 conference.

24 MS. BAUSCH: Hi. Sorry, this is

25 Jennifer from Kirkland.

84

1 MR. FARR: Hello, Jennifer.

2 BY MS. RYAN:

3 Q. The -- so going back to the two meetings around

4 March of 2015, I think you said you didn't

5 recall whether voter ID had been discussed at

6 any other district meetings; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But you recall discussing the voter ID at these

9 two meetings in March?

10 A. We went over the memo -- the VIVA memo to

11 ensure that, one, it was the most current memo.

12 I believe there were other versions, I can't

13 really remember the date, but to make sure they

14 had the most current memo, and then to go

15 through the memo in its entirety, not

16 specifically one incident or one thing in the

17 memo, just the entire memo.

18 Q. Who was at those -- we'll take the first one.

19 Do you recall whether the first one was

20 the in-person?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. Okay. Who was at those two meetings?

23 A. Myself, the regional chief, the district

24 supervisor, the individual taking the notes,

25 and I can't remember if we had guests that were




22 (Pages 85 to 88)

85

1 a part of the meeting. So I don't remember

2 after that other than those people.

3 Q. Okay. Did you talk about topics other than

4 voter ID at those two meetings in March?

5 A. We did. We talked about service and wait

6 times, we talked about other initiatives going

7 on through DMV, optimization, reform, we talked

8 about reform as well.

9 Q. What's optimization?

10 A. The outfit or the new face of DMV, changing the

11 way the facilities look like on the inside.

12 Q. Okay. And what's reform?

13 A. Merging of driver and vehicle services to field

14 services, that's what the reform is.

15 Q. Okay. And I think you said you usually have a

16 district meeting every two to three months; is

17 that right?

18 A. We try, yes.

19 Q. But it sounds like you had two meetings in

20 around March where you discussed voter ID.

21 Did I get that right?

22 A. We had a conference call and a meeting.

23 Q. And why did you have two sessions in that close

24 proximity?

25 A. The first meeting -- I can't remember whether

86

1 it was the in-person or not -- it was, of

2 course, to talk about the district meeting

3 where they came here or came to Raleigh was

4 when we talked about several things.

5 And I believe the second meeting we

6 talked about was to reiterate some of the

7 things that we discussed during the district

8 supervisor meeting. So I believe the district

9 must have been -- might have been first.

10 Q. And the district meeting would be the in-person

11 meeting?

12 A. I believe so, yes.

13 Q. And so the second meeting over the phone,

14 then -- I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow what

15 you were saying was covered in that.

16 A. We talked about the memo again to make sure

17 that, one, that they had conveyed the

18 information to the field personnel, meaning our

19 driver's license examiners, make sure they

20 convey the information regarding optimization.

21 One of the things we talked about was

22 communicating things from the top down, so

23 wanted to reiterate those things had been

24 discussed with field personnel.

25 Q. Anything else?

87

1 A. Not that I can remember, no.

2 Q. Who asked you to go over the VIVA memo with

3 these folks?

4 A. I believe it was the deputy commissioner.

5 Q. Is that Mr. Dishong?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. And do you know why he asked you to do that?

8 A. Not specifically, no, I don't.

9 Q. Did you have any discussion with him about it?

10 A. I'm trying to remember. I'm sure we did

11 discuss it, yes.

12 Q. Do you remember anything about those

13 conversations?

14 A. Not specifically. Let me restate.

15 When we talked about it, I can't

16 remember if it was in the form of a meeting or

17 a memo, it was just reiterating that our field

18 personnel were familiar with the VIVA memo and

19 they had the most current information and,

20 again, optimization because that's a big thing

21 going on in reform, so...

22 Q. What did Mr. Dishong ask you to cover?

23 A. Just those things specifically or just the

24 VIVA -- just everything that's going on at DMV.

25 When we have meetings, those are some of the

88

1 things that he reiterates, optimization,

2 reform, VIVA, the free voter ID, not

3 specifically VIVA but the voter ID. That's

4 pretty much it.

5 Q. Okay. Have there been any meetings where --

6 with the field services staff where voter ID

7 has been discussed since those March meetings?

8 A. I don't conduct field meetings. My chiefs and

9 my seniors -- excuse me -- my district

10 supervisors, so they do have meetings, but I

11 don't know what's being discussed in those

12 meetings.

13 Q. So you don't know whether the -- there have

14 been -- whether the examiners have been in

15 meetings where voter ID is covered?

16 A. The examiners I know for sure have discussed

17 the memo because that was the directive -- one

18 of the directives that was given. So they were

19 having to look at -- the district supervisors

20 went over the memo with them and acknowledged

21 receipt and understanding of the memo. So I'm

22 sure that they did talk about that.

23 Q. And that was in March of this year roughly?

24 A. March or April, yes.

25 Q. Okay. And since that time have you had any




23 (Pages 89 to 92)

89

1 meetings with the regional chiefs or the

2 district supervisors about voter ID?

3 A. Not specifically, no.

4 Q. Has voter ID come up in any of your meetings

5 with the regional chiefs or district

6 supervisors?

7 A. A reiteration of all the things, not just

8 voter, but all things.

9 Q. What do you mean?

10 A. Reform, optimization and the voter ID process.

11 Q. What do you mean by a reiteration of these

12 things?

13 A. Just to make sure that they are communicating

14 with the staff with respect to the free voter

15 ID.

16 Q. Okay. So in subsequent meetings you have

17 reiterated these points to them. Is that what

18 you're saying?

19 A. Conversations.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether -- are you aware of

21 the trainings that the examiners receive?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know whether there have been any

24 trainings relating to voter ID since you took

25 over as assistant director of driver services?

90

1 A. Yes.2 Q. Can you tell me when those were?3 A. We began continuing education training the4 first part of May which covered a variety of5 things, voter optimization, medical, the6 driver's license issuance process and things of7 that nature, and that was in May, and I think8 the last class was -- let me back up.9 I think it was five weeks, and I think

10 it was either the end of April or the first of11 May when the training began at Fort Fisher.12 Q. Of this year?13 A. Yes.14 Q. So it's a five-week training?15 A. I believe it was five weeks, five to six weeks.16 Q. Okay. And voter ID is part of the material17 that's covered during the training; is that18 right?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Okay. And the -- the five-week training that21 began at the end of April, is that the first22 time DMV has run this training?23 A. It's the -- we haven't had training --24 continuing education I believe since 2007.25 Q. Okay. Do you know what about voter ID is

91

1 covered in that training?

2 A. Specifically, no, I didn't do the training.

3 Q. Who did the training?

4 A. Ms. Tracy Bucholtz.

5 Q. So would she know the contents of the training

6 that relate to voter ID?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Other than you, is there anybody else at DMV

9 who communicates with the regional chiefs about

10 the voter ID policies?

11 A. I can't say if there are because if they do,

12 I'm not a part of the conversation so I don't

13 know.

14 Q. Okay. And what about the district supervisors,

15 would there be anybody other than you who's

16 communicating to the district supervisors about

17 voter ID?

18 A. If they are, I'm not aware of it. Anybody --

19 we have commissioners that can communicate with

20 them, we have directors that can communicate

21 with them, but specifically I can't tell you

22 who or when or how.

23 Q. Who are the directors who might communicate

24 with them?

25 A. Ms. Manley, Portia Manley.

92

1 Q. Okay. Anybody else?

2 A. As a director, she's the only director, but it

3 would be the commissioner -- Deputy

4 Commissioner Dishong, Commissioner Kelly

5 Thomas.

6 Q. Okay. Other than Commissioner Thomas, Deputy

7 Commissioner Dishong and Director Manley, is

8 there anybody else other than yourself who

9 might communicate with the district supervisors

10 about voter ID?

11 A. Not that I'm aware of.

12 Q. And same for the regional chiefs, is there

13 anybody else you think might communicate with

14 them about voter ID?


16 Q. You mentioned earlier that you have been out to

17 visit a DMV field office just a few times. I

18 think maybe you said three times.

19 A. A few times, yes.

20 Q. Do you -- why did you go out to the field

21 offices in those instances?

22 A. To see what the offices looked like, see what

23 the customers -- how many customers were

24 waiting, see what the service and wait times

25 were, see the interaction between the examiners




24 (Pages 93 to 96)

93

1 and the customers.

2 We had stellar customer service

3 training for our examiners to see how they were

4 applying that and in some instances to do road

5 testing and to assist in the office.

6 Q. Okay. Do you remember when you made those

7 visits roughly?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Okay. You said during these two March meetings

10 that happened, you also discussed service and

11 wait times?


13 Q. What about service and wait times?

14 A. How long it takes for a customer to be serviced

15 or how long it takes for a customer -- how long

16 they waited, to see what the timeframes were,

17 whether it was 15, 20, however long it was for

18 the service and wait times for our customers.

19 Q. Okay. So what did you discuss about service

20 and wait times?

21 A. We discussed how long it was taking, why it was

22 taking so long, if it was a matter of a

23 different service type, just everything that

24 goes with a service and wait time and why a

25 customer would have to wait so long or why it

94

1 took a customer so long to be serviced.

2 Q. What are -- what is DMV doing to track those

3 service and wait times?

4 A. We were using NEMO-Q, and new we've implemented

5 a new system QFlow to track service and wait

6 times.

7 Q. How does QFlow work?

8 A. I don't know the specific intricacies of it,

9 but it does provide with us a snapshot or a

10 report to tell us how long a person has waited.

11 Well, let's start back.

12 When they came into the office, how

13 long it took for them to be serviced, how long

14 it took for them to be waited on, the type of

15 transaction. That's some little snippets of

16 what QFlow can do, but I'm not the QFlow expert

17 so I can't --

18 Q. Who's the QFlow expert?

19 A. Our IT person would be.

20 Q. When did DMV start using QFlow?

21 A. I'm not sure of the specific date.

22 Q. Do you know whether it's being used at all DMV

23 offices?

24 A. Currently all DMV offices have QFlow.

25 Q. And is it implemented at all of the offices?

95

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know whether DMV is tracking how long a

3 customer waits before he goes up to see an

4 examiner?

5 A. I believe they are, yes, yes.

6 Q. And is DMV also tracking the amount of time

7 that a customer spends with an examiner?

8 A. That's the service time, yes, how long it takes

9 for the customer to be serviced from the time

10 they sit down with an examiner until the end of

11 the transaction, completion of the transaction.

12 Q. Okay. When, for example, a customer is coming

13 in for a driver's license, after they go

14 through the application process with the

15 examiner, what happens after that?

16 A. Can you rephrase your question.

17 Q. Sure. If I'm applying for a driver's license,

18 I come in, I go through the application process

19 with the examiner, when I have completed the

20 filling out the application with the examiner,

21 what do I do next?

22 A. You don't fill out an application. They take

23 your information in SADLS and then process the

24 information, and after you've completed that

25 transaction, they go over to take their

96

1 picture.

2 Q. Okay. So that's -- the photograph is the next

3 step?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it right that there's one camera per DMV

6 office right now?

7 A. Yes. Let me change that. There is -- the new

8 South Charlotte office has multiple cameras, I

9 believe. I think they did install multiple

10 cameras, I said I think. But other than that

11 one, yes, most of them have one camera.

12 Q. Okay. Is DMV tracking how long I have to wait

13 to get -- before it's my turn to get my picture

14 taken?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Is that through the QFlow program?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what happens after I get my picture taken?

19 A. After the photo is taken, the TDC -- after the

20 photo is taken, the TDC, your temporary driver

21 certificate is printed, the customer receives

22 the temporary driver certificate for review.

23 If it's accurate, the customer leaves with the

24 temporary driver certificate.

25 Q. Okay. And does the QFlow system track how long




25 (Pages 97 to 100)

97

1 I wait for that to print as well?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. In the South Charlotte office, did they install

4 cameras at each examiner station?

5 A. I wanted to say cameras at each examiner's

6 station is part of optimization, but now that

7 I'm thinking about it, I think we still have

8 one camera because all of the cameras did not

9 come in. I think they still have one camera,

10 but the plan is to have a camera with each.

11 Q. Okay. So at the South Charlotte office, you

12 mean you think they still only have one camera

13 currently?


15 Q. I'm handing you what's been previously marked

16 as Exhibit 221, and I want to ask you some

17 questions about the list on Page 18 of the

18 document. I guess -- you know, before I do

19 that, the probably better thing to do is ask

20 you: Have you seen this document before?


22 Q. And can you tell me what it is?

23 A. It is the verification of voter information

24 memorandum, VIVA.

25 Q. Is that what we've been referring to as the

98

1 VIVA memo?

2 A. I believe so.

3 Q. Okay. And do you know whether -- Exhibit 221

4 is dated August 6, 2014. Do you know whether

5 this is the most current version of the memo?

6 A. It's the version that I've seen. I don't --

7 it's the version that I've seen.

8 Q. Is it the version that DMV is currently using?


10 Q. If you could flip to Page 18 which says at the

11 top Identity Documents Exception List. Have

12 you seen this list before?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell me what it is?

15 A. It's the exception list, Identity Document

16 Exception List.

17 Q. What does that mean?

18 A. Additional documents that an examiner or

19 customer could provide for the voter ID.

20 Q. Okay. So these are documents that an examiner

21 may accept from a voter ID applicant; is that

22 right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. And these are documents that voter ID

25 applicants can use to prove their identity?

99

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To your knowledge, have there been any changes

3 to the list on Page 18 of Exhibit 221 since

4 August 2014?

5 A. Ask me again, please. I'm sorry.

6 Q. Sure. Have there been any changes to the list

7 printed here on Page 18 since August 2014?


9 Q. These are alternative documents that a voter ID

10 applicant can use. A voter ID applicant can

11 also rely on the documents listed in

12 Exhibit 218 as well, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Other than these two lists, can a voter ID

15 applicant rely on any other documents to prove

16 their identity?

17 A. I believe there are documents that are not

18 listed -- and let me clarify. The examiners

19 are trained to go through every extent to try

20 to prove the identity for a customer requesting

21 a voter ID, so there may be other documents

22 that they may ask just to see if they can

23 provide the customer with a voter ID.

24 Q. So there are some circumstances when the

25 examiner would accept something other than

100

1 what's listed on Exhibit 218 or Exhibit 221?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when an examiner accepts a document other

4 than one that is listed in Exhibit 218, that's

5 considered a deviation; is that right?

6 A. I wouldn't call it a deviation. I would call

7 it an attempt to service the customer.

8 Q. Okay. Is the -- does the examiner do anything

9 to document the fact that he or she accepted a

10 document other than the one that's on the

11 required documents list on page -- Exhibit 218?

12 A. The document would go into SADLS into comments

13 and note the comments of the documents they

14 took.

15 Q. I just want to make sure I understand. I'm

16 sorry, could you explain that again.

17 A. Ask me your question again.

18 Q. Yeah. I was asking does -- is the examiner

19 expected to document the fact that he or she

20 accepted an alternative identity document?

21 A. Before accepting an alternative document, they

22 have to get approval from a senior or district

23 supervisor or chief, and once it's approved,

24 they go into what's called the comment screen

25 and make comments regarding what additional




26 (Pages 101 to 104)

101

1 documents or alternative document they

2 received.

3 Q. Okay. Is the examiner required to do that if

4 the applicant provides identity documents from

5 the list in Table 1 of Exhibit 218?

6 A. They're trained to go into the comment screen

7 to note what documents they take.

8 Q. Okay. You said the examiner, before accepting

9 the document, must get approval from his

10 supervisor; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who -- who do they have to get approval from?

13 A. They would start with their entry level and

14 that would be the senior examiner, and if the

15 senior examiner had questions, they would

16 escalate it to the district supervisor and

17 normally the district supervisor is able to

18 resolve. If not, it goes to the chief and then

19 to me.

20 Q. How long does that take?

21 A. It depends.

22 Q. So does the examiner have to wait to hear back

23 from somebody in his chain of command approving

24 the acceptance of the alternative identity

25 document?

102

1 A. Normally it's instantly, there's a phone call.

2 So anything outside of a phone call, it's

3 instantaneously, I would say. If they can't

4 reach one level, they continue to go up the

5 line, and I'm always available via -- they have

6 cell phones so they can answer via cell phone,

7 but it's pretty quick.

8 Q. Okay. And if the examiner wasn't able to reach

9 anybody, what would happen?

10 A. I don't know.


12 Has that happened?

13 THE WITNESS: I don't know that it has.

14 That's what I was going to say, I'm not aware

15 of an instance where that's occurred.

16 BY MS. RYAN:

17 Q. So you said the examiner has to get approval

18 before accepting one of these documents on

19 Exhibit 221. If the examiner's not able to

20 reach somebody in that moment, what is the

21 examiner trained to do?


23 You can answer if you can.

24 THE WITNESS: I need -- can you ask the

25 question again because I think I'm confused.

103

1 Can you ask me that question again, please.2 BY MS. RYAN:3 Q. Sure. If an examiner would like to accept one4 of the documents listed in Exhibit 218 -- I'm5 sorry -- Exhibit 221 in the Alternative6 Documents Exception List, the examiner has to7 get approval from his supervisor, right?8 A. No. If they're taking it from this list, it's9 a list that they've already approved. If it's

10 a document outside of these twos lists is when11 they have to get additional approvals.12 Q. Okay. So if the examiner would like to accept13 a document that's listed in the identity14 documents exception list on Page 18 here, he15 can do that without seeking supervisory16 approval?17 A. That's correct.18 Q. And same with the documents listed in19 Exhibit 218, no supervisory approval required?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Okay. If the examiner wants to accept a22 document that is on neither of these two lists,23 he has to get supervisory approval?24 A. Yes.25 Q. Okay. And in that circumstance, what is the

104

1 examiner trained to do if he can't reach a

2 supervisor immediately?

3 A. The examiner is trying to continue up the

4 chain. If they cannot reach a chief or

5 district, they are trained to call me. If they

6 cannot reach me, they are to advise the

7 customer that they have to seek additional

8 approval and they would then have the customer

9 make an appointment for the customer to return.

10 Q. What do the examiners do to verify the

11 authenticity of the documents that a customer

12 is presenting as proof of ID?

13 A. Can you ask the question again, please.

14 Q. Sure. Do the examiners, when they receive a

15 document from a customer, do they do anything

16 to confirm that it's an authentic version of

17 what the customer says it is?

18 A. It depends on what the document is.

19 Q. Okay. So what do the examiners do to verify

20 that these documents are legitimate?

21 A. Which documents?

22 Q. Any documents that a customer may present.

23 A. On a birth certificate, there are special

24 features on a document. They go through a

25 document fraudulent class at basic examiner




27 (Pages 105 to 108)

105

1 school, and so if it's a document such as a

2 birth certificate, a driver's license, Social

3 Security card, those training -- that type of

4 verification of the document occurs during

5 basic examiners school.

6 I don't know what type of training they

7 would receive to see if a phone bill or

8 something is authentic. I'm not aware of how

9 they would authenticate anything outside of the

10 documents on 218.

11 Q. Okay. For the documents that are on

12 Exhibit 218, do they have examples at their

13 station that they can refer to or anything like

14 that?

15 A. I'm not aware if they have examples at their

16 station, but they go through a training and

17 that information is in their manual and that

18 manual is accessible via hard copy that they

19 have and they brought back from basic school or

20 a link that's on their desktop.

21 Q. And for the documents listed on Page 18 of

22 Exhibit 221, I think you said you're not aware

23 of any training they receive on how to verify

24 these types of documents.

25 A. To verify if they're authentic, no, I don't

106

1 know.

2 Q. Who would know whether the examiners receive

3 any training on that point?

4 A. On these documents?

5 Q. Yes, the documents on Page 18 of Exhibit 221.

6 A. I would say Tracy Bucholtz or one of our

7 driver's license trainers, but primarily Tracy

8 Bucholtz.

9 Q. If a voter ID applicant came in and presented

10 one of the alternative identity documents,

11 could the examiner decide not to accept it as

12 proof of ID?


14 Q. Is there anything that requires the examiner to

15 accept a document on this list on Page 18 of

16 Exhibit 221?

17 A. They've been trained to take these documents on

18 that exhibit, yes.

19 Q. And if they were concerned about the

20 authenticity of one of these documents,

21 would -- would they be allowed to not accept it

22 as proof of identity?

23 MR. FARR: Objection to form.

24 If you can answer that, you may.

25 THE WITNESS: I don't know how to

107

1 answer. I'm sorry.

2 BY MS. RYAN:

3 Q. Do you not understand the question?

4 A. I understand it, but they're trained to take

5 the documents and I'm not aware of an instance

6 where they wouldn't take one. So that's what I

7 mean I don't understand how to answer it.

8 They're trained to take it, and I'm not aware

9 of them -- or I've not been told they haven't

10 taken these documents on this list.

11 Q. Okay. So what -- what would -- how is an

12 examiner trained to handle a situation where

13 he's not sure about the authenticity or

14 reliability of a document that a customer is

15 presenting?

16 A. You're talking about on this or this or both?

17 Q. On Exhibit -- on the list of alternative

18 identity documents.

19 A. I don't -- I can't speak to that one. I would

20 have to refer that question to Tracy because

21 she provided the training to them.

22 Q. Okay. And how about the list of documents on

23 Exhibit 218, how are they trained to handle a

24 situation where they're not sure about the

25 authenticity of the document that's being

108

1 presented?

2 A. Based on the information in their handbook and

3 the training, they are -- they have been

4 trained to contact the -- an individual in

5 license and theft or one of our training

6 officers who are as familiar or more familiar

7 with the document, but primarily license and

8 theft.

9 Q. Okay. And what happens when they do that?

10 A. What do you mean what happens?

11 Q. If the examiner contacts license and theft,

12 what's the next step, then?

13 A. Whatever document that's called into question,

14 the license and theft agent would want to see

15 the document. And all of our driver's license

16 offices do not have license and theft agents in

17 them, so the document would have to be verified

18 with license and theft before proceeding.

19 Q. And so would that take some -- I mean, could

20 that happen immediately?

21 A. It could happen immediately if the license and

22 theft agent is onsite. If they are not, then

23 it could take some time.

24 Q. Do you have any idea how long it could take?

25 A. I don't. I would have to refer that one to a




28 (Pages 109 to 112)

109

1 license and theft agent.

2 Q. Do you know whether a process like that would

3 happen if an examiner was concerned about the

4 authenticity of a document listed on the

5 alternative identity documents list?

6 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.

7 Q. You don't know?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Okay. Do the examiners keep the documents that

10 a customer presents to prove their identity?

11 A. They return the document.

12 Q. Immediately or do they retain them for any

13 period of time?

14 A. They hand the documents back to the customer.

15 Q. All right. Are the documents scanned into the

16 system?

17 A. No. Let me rephrase. Are you referring to

18 these documents here? What documents are you

19 referring to?

20 Q. Let's take them in turn. If the documents are

21 taken off the list in Exhibit 218, are they

22 scanned into the system?

23 A. No.

24 Q. If documents are presented off the list of

25 Exhibit 221, are they scanned into the system?

110

1 A. No, they're not.

2 Q. Are documents ever scanned into the system?

3 A. There are some documents that are scanned,

4 yeah.

5 Q. Which document?

6 A. The voter application is scanned into the

7 system.

8 Q. Any other documents?

9 A. Not that I'm aware of. I'm sorry, I'll restate

10 it.

11 The legal presence I believe are also

12 scanned.

13 Q. Are there any other documents you can think of

14 that are scanned into the system?

15 A. Not at this moment, no.

16 Q. We talked about -- we touched on this a little

17 bit earlier, but I want to go into it in a

18 little more detail.

19 Other than, you know, looking at the

20 documents that the applicant presents, what --

21 what does the examiner do to verify the

22 customer's identity?

23 A. Ask me that again, please.

24 Q. What does the DMV examiner do to verify the

25 identity of a person presenting for a voter ID?

111

1 MR. FARR: Hasn't she answered that?

2 Hasn't she answered that?

3 MS. RYAN: I'm asking her the question.

4 MR. FARR: Okay. If you can answer it

5 again.

6 THE WITNESS: I got thrown off. Ask me

7 the question again. I'm sorry.

8 BY MS. RYAN:

9 Q. What does the examiner do to verify the

10 identity of a customer presenting for voter ID?

11 A. They would go through the verification process

12 as they would a regular special identification

13 card for a driver's license verifying their

14 Social Security, their date of birth, their

15 name, their address.

16 Q. And some of these data points they verify with

17 the Social Security Administration; is that

18 right?

19 A. The Social, the date of birth and the name are

20 from SADLS to Social Security Administration.

21 Q. Okay. And if the Social Security

22 Administration does not verify those three

23 points, what happens next?

24 A. In what instance are you referring, just to

25 driver's license process, the identification

112

1 process?

2 Q. Why don't we talk about the voter ID process

3 first.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. If the SSN, date of birth and name, if any one

6 of those does not verify with the Social

7 Security Administration, what happens next?

8 A. Then the examiner then goes through the process

9 of trying to use other documents to verify

10 identity.

11 Q. Okay. Is there any circumstance in which the

12 DMV will issue a voter ID without those three

13 data points verifying with the Social Security

14 Administration?


16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. They are

17 trained to make every effort to assist the

18 customer.

19 BY MS. RYAN:

20 Q. Okay. So if -- if a voter ID customer provides

21 a document showing their name and Social

22 Security number but the name doesn't match with

23 what the Social Security Administration has on

24 file, can that person be issued a voter ID?

25 A. I would have to refer that question to Tracy




29 (Pages 113 to 116)

113

1 Bucholtz because she's more familiar with the

2 voter ID process.

3 Q. Okay. Do you know when -- in that situation

4 when there's a non-match between the name on

5 the document and the name on file with the

6 Social Security Administration, do you know

7 when it would become apparent that there was a

8 non-match?

9 A. It would be reflected in SADLS. It would say

10 verified or did not verify.

11 Q. Does that happen immediately or is there a time

12 delay?

13 A. It's an electronic response. It just depends

14 if the system is working properly. Most of the

15 time it's an immediate response.

16 Q. Okay. And when the system is not working

17 properly, what kind of a delay are we talking

18 about?

19 A. It's like timed, if you will, the system will

20 time out. It doesn't immediately come up so

21 they'll try to resend.

22 Q. Okay. Other than -- I'm sorry, let me back up.

23 If the date of birth that is printed on

24 a document that a voter ID customer presents

25 doesn't match with the date of birth on file

114

1 with the Social Security Administration, can

2 that customer receive a voter ID?

3 A. I'm not sure if they can or not.

4 Q. Okay. Who would know the answer to that?

5 A. I believe Tracy would be able to answer that

6 question.

7 Q. Other than this -- verifying these three data

8 points with the Social Security Administration

9 and looking at the identity documents, is the

10 DMV doing anything else to verify the identity

11 of the voter ID applicants?

12 A. I don't understand the question.

13 Q. Okay. What part don't you understand?

14 A. The entire question. I don't understand the

15 question.

16 Q. So I understand that you're saying DMV receives

17 documents from voter ID customers to prove

18 their identity; is that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the DMV also runs the name, date of birth

21 and Social Security number through the Social

22 Security Administration database; is that

23 right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Other than those two things, does DMV do

115

1 anything else to check the identity of a voter

2 ID customer?

3 A. I'm not sure.

4 Q. Are you aware of DMV doing anything else?

5 A. I'm not.

6 Q. Do you know if DMV uses a facial recognition

7 program?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is it?

10 A. Facial recognition is primarily used with our

11 DMV fraud team, so if there's an issue with a

12 customer's -- a person that has multiple

13 images, they use facial recognition to identify

14 a customer.

15 So in driver's license, we capture an

16 image. When the image is captured, there are

17 data points or points on the face, I believe

18 your eyes, your nose, your mouth, that the

19 system tries to identify the person. So, yeah,

20 that is one of them.

21 Q. So the -- you capture the person's image and

22 then you said if the person has other images in

23 the system, what are you referring to?

24 A. That's a fraud process.

25 Q. Okay.

116

1 A. So if a person has come into the driver's

2 license office and they have another image on

3 file that we've captured previously, we have

4 the ability to see that. That's what I mean

5 when I say another image.

6 Q. Okay. And so at what point in the issuance

7 process is the facial recognition used?

8 A. I don't know if I would call it facial

9 recognition. If I'm taking your picture, I'm

10 looking at your image. You're in front of me

11 and I'm taking a picture and I see your face,

12 and the camera as I believe it takes your

13 picture and that is what I'm looking at your

14 picture, unless there's an issue -- I've seen

15 one instance where the camera came up and it

16 was two images of the same person but maybe the

17 hair was longer or there was something that was

18 a little different. So primarily if I'm

19 looking at the camera, I'm looking at the image

20 that I'm taking of you.

21 Q. Does the DMV check to see whether the same

22 image is associated with different demographic

23 information?

24 A. I'm not sure of that process.

25 Q. Does the DMV look to see whether -- if I come




30 (Pages 117 to 120)

117

1 in, I'm applying for a driver's license, I

2 provide my name and date of birth and SSN, does

3 the DMV look to see whether that demographic

4 information is associated with somebody else's

5 picture?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Do you know when the DMV is searching

8 for other images what the universe of images is

9 that you're searching?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know whether it's just the

12 North Carolina DMV's database?

13 A. Can you rephrase your question.

14 Q. Sure. When you said sometimes you might pull

15 up another image of the same person but looking

16 different, would those be other pictures that

17 were in SADLS?

18 A. It would be an image that we have captured at

19 DMV in North Carolina.

20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether DMV searches images

21 that were captured by some other entity?

22 A. I do not.

23 Q. Okay. Do the voter ID customers go through

24 this same process?

25 A. Which process?

118

1 Q. With having their image checked against other

2 images captured by DMV.

3 A. An image is captured for a person when applying

4 for a voter ID.

5 Q. And does DMV compare that image to other images

6 in its database?

7 A. I don't know that they do. I don't know.

8 Q. Is that what's happening for the driver's

9 license applicants?

10 A. I'm not sure that I understand the question.

11 Q. Okay. It may be because I don't understand

12 this facial recognition thing.

13 A. So let me clarify. When I say facial

14 recognition, I am saying I'm looking at you and

15 looking at the picture. I'm not talking about

16 a different image. If there is a different

17 image, if there is a question -- and I've seen

18 it happen once or twice, taking a picture where

19 the person looked different, maybe they gained

20 weight or they lost weight and then another

21 image came in, came up, and I could tell it was

22 the same person, but it's the same -- it's

23 another picture that we've captured in a

24 North Carolina image base for me to look at.

25 So that's what I mean facial

119

1 recognition, a double image, the one that I'm

2 looking at now, you, your picture that I've

3 just taken and one that had come up that we had

4 taken before.

5 Q. How would that older picture come up?

6 A. I'm not sure why or how it comes up, but I've

7 seen it happen.

8 Q. Okay. And you don't know what causes it to pop

9 up?

10 A. I do not.

11 Q. Okay. How would a voter ID customer learn of

12 any problem that DMV is having with doing the

13 identity verification?

14 A. I'm not sure. I don't know.

15 Q. Okay. Is the examiner instructed to write

16 comments when, say, for example the -- one of

17 the data points that's run through the SSA

18 database doesn't verify, is the examiner

19 instructed to write comments in that

20 circumstance?

21 A. If they're not able to issue an ID?

22 Q. Uh-huh.

23 A. A voter ID, they're instructed to make comment

24 as to why they could not.

25 Q. Okay. Where do they make those comments?

120

1 A. In the comment screen on SADLS -- in SADLS and

2 also on a spreadsheet.

3 Q. The comment screen is in SADLS. And where is

4 the spreadsheet?

5 A. The spreadsheet is a spreadsheet that each

6 examiner or district supervisor, senior

7 examiner uses and they record information with

8 respect to the voter ID that was not able to be

9 issued.

10 Q. Okay. And where is the spreadsheet maintained?

11 A. The senior examiner has it on their desktop, I

12 believe, and it's forwarded to the district

13 supervisor. And the district supervisor gets

14 all of the offices in their district and comes

15 up with one spreadsheet and forwards it to my

16 office to my administrative assistant and

17 that's done monthly.

18 Q. Okay. So that was a lot of steps. Let me see

19 if I've got them all. In each office there's a

20 senior examiner that collects -- that holds the

21 spreadsheet where examiners would enter

22 information about voter ID applicants who were

23 not issued a voter ID; is that right?


25 Q. Okay. And the senior examiner forwards that




31 (Pages 121 to 124)

121

1 information to his district supervisor?


3 Q. And how often does that happen?

4 A. The district supervisor collects the data on a

5 monthly basis and sends it to my office at the

6 end of each month.

7 Q. So you receive it from the district supervisors

8 directly?

9 A. My assistant does.

10 Q. Okay. And are the regional chiefs involved in

11 this process at all?

12 A. Sometimes they are. Most of the time it's just

13 district supervisor. They are copied on the

14 e-mail, though.

15 Q. Okay. And when did DMV initiate this process

16 that you've just described?

17 A. I initiated this particular process in March.

18 Q. In March of 2015?

19 A. 2015, yes.

20 Q. And before March of 2015, what were the

21 examiners doing to keep track of voter ID

22 customers who -- where they weren't able to

23 issue a voter ID?

24 A. I believe they were required to do the same

25 thing that I had them doing now, but I don't

122

1 know how often they were doing it, when they

2 started doing it. I'm not sure of that because

3 that was prior to me coming on board.

4 Q. Okay. So you came on board in I think it

5 was -- you said June of 2014; is that right?


7 Q. So between June of 2014 and March of 2015,

8 what -- what was DMV doing to keep track of

9 voter ID applicants who weren't issued a voter

10 ID?

11 A. Based on the information I received via e-mail

12 sometime in March, they were sending the

13 information via e-mail. Some of them were

14 sending information on a spreadsheet of sorts.

15 Q. Okay. Anything else?


17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. RYAN: We've been going for about

19 an hour. Why don't we take a quick break.

20 MR. FARR: Okay.


22 2:38 p.m.

23 (Brief Recess.)


25 2:53 p.m.

123



3 MR. FARR: What number is this, please?

4 THE REPORTER: 481.

5 BY MS. RYAN:

6 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, I just handed you

7 Exhibit 481. Have you had a chance to look it

8 over?

9 A. I'm reading it now.

10 Yes.

11 Q. Have you seen this document before?

12 A. I have.

13 Q. What is it?

14 A. It's an e-mail that I sent out to my chiefs.

15 Q. These are the regional chiefs?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who's in the cc line?

18 A. Portia Manley.

19 Q. She's the director?

20 A. She's the director of field services. Tracy

21 Bucholtz, who is the supervisor of the DMV help

22 desk and also the SBOE liaison, and Patricia

23 Polito who is my assistant.

24 Q. And what information were you attempting to

25 gather through this e-mail?

124

1 A. I was asking for information with respect to

2 how they were capturing the no-fee issuances --

3 issues. I know it started in January sometime,

4 and I found out they were supposed to be

5 collecting stuff, I didn't know exactly what,

6 when or how. That's what I spoke about

7 earlier, the e-mails and that memo.

8 And so I was just trying to get an idea

9 of what, if anything, they were doing.

10 Q. And you said what, if anything, they were doing

11 to capture no-fee -- I'm sorry -- voter ID

12 issuances?

13 A. The non-issuances that they had.

14 Q. Okay. And before this March 7, 2015, e-mail,

15 had you asked for information from the field

16 about non-issuances before?

17 A. I don't think that I had. I can't recall.

18 Q. You don't recall ever asking for it before?

19 A. I don't.

20 Q. Do you know if anybody else at DMV headquarters

21 had asked for non-issuances before?

22 A. I believe they had because this was implemented

23 in January. So it's my understanding that Mike

24 Jarman and Barbara Webb, who was the director

25 at that time, had asked them for information or




32 (Pages 125 to 128)

125

1 asked them to track it.

2 Q. And when you say January, you mean

3 January 2014?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But you don't know what information, if any,

6 they had received?

7 A. The information that I received based on this

8 e-mail was information I provided to Wil, and

9 those were the e-mails, some sheets, that's

10 basically what I received.

11 Q. Okay. Do you -- but do you know what

12 Mr. Jarman or Ms. Webb had received information

13 about non-issuances?

14 A. I don't know what they specifically received.

15 I'm just -- I just knew what the e-mails -- the

16 e-mails were directed to them, so those are the

17 only things that I'm aware of.

18 Q. Okay. And so before you sent this e-mail in

19 March of this year, are you aware of what DMV

20 had been doing to track non-issuances?


22 Q. Yeah. Do you know in what way the DMV had been

23 tracking non-issuances of voter IDs?

24 A. The only thing that I'm aware of is those

25 e-mails and the sheets that I provided to Wil.

126

1 I don't know of anything else.2 Q. So after you sent -- you sent this e-mail on3 March 7th. What did you learn from the three4 chiefs about what they were doing to track5 non-issuances?6 A. What I learned was not specifically from the7 chiefs but from the district supervisors that8 were supposed to be tracking this information9 was that they received a directive and some

10 continued to do it, some did not do it, they11 were not consistent in the way they were12 reporting it and they were reporting in13 different fashions.14 Q. Okay. So was it the district supervisors who15 filled you in on what they had been doing?16 A. The district supervisors provided the e-mails17 and the sheets that they were -- and I want to18 restate or reiterate, I know that they were19 tracking or there was a directive given to20 track it. When I got the e-mails and the21 spreadsheets, it just showed the method they22 were using to track it.23 Q. And so were you able to get a complete record24 of the non-issuances since January 2014?25 A. I don't know that the record was complete.

127

1 MS. RYAN: Okay. Can we go off the

2 record for one second.


4 3 o'clock p.m.

5 (Brief Interruption.)


7 3:01 p.m.



10 BY MS. RYAN:

11 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, I've just handed you

12 Exhibit 482. Can you tell me what this is?

13 A. It's an e-mail from Wanda Harrison.

14 Q. Who's Wanda Harrison?

15 A. She's a district supervisor.

16 Q. Okay. And what -- and it looks like it's an

17 e-mail -- the original e-mail in the thread is

18 an e-mail from Ms. Harrison to you; is that

19 right?


21 Q. And was this e-mail in response to a request

22 that you sent her?

23 A. The free voter non-issuance issues or the free

24 voter non-issuances.

25 Q. I'm sorry. So what did you request?

128

1 A. This information here is from the request from

2 the other e-mail with respect to the issues of

3 the non-issuances in the field.

4 Q. Okay. And when you say the other e-mail, do

5 you mean, Exhibit 481?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So what -- can you tell me what information

8 Ms. Harrison provided to you?

9 A. In this packet, it is a free voter ID by

10 district and e-mails from some of the other

11 district supervisors and some of the senior

12 examiners. So it appears to be the e-mail

13 thread from the senior examiners to the

14 district supervisors.

15 Q. Okay. And this is for which districts?

16 A. District G, H and I.

17 Q. Okay. If you'll flip to the second page of

18 Exhibit 482, there's a table on that second

19 page. Can you tell me what that is?

20 A. It's a free voter ID table.

21 Q. Okay. What information is captured in this

22 table?

23 A. I'm not really familiar with this table because

24 this is not something that I created, so I

25 can't really speak to the information that's




33 (Pages 129 to 132)

129

1 contained in this.

2 Q. Do you know who created this table?

3 A. I do not.

4 Q. Do you know what the information reported in

5 the table means?

6 A. I would have to take a guess. It just says

7 non-reported, had one turned away. Just

8 basically reading what it says is what I would

9 assume it is.

10 Q. And what is that?

11 MR. FARR: She just answered the

12 question.

13 You can answer again, I guess.

14 THE WITNESS: If I look at this table,

15 it shows reported, and then if I go down to G,

16 H and I, it indicates beside G, H and I how

17 they reported it, and the next column how often

18 reported and then reported to whom and then

19 their response.

20 BY MS. RYAN:

21 Q. Are these -- if you know, are those the reports

22 of non-issuances of voter ID?

23 A. I'm not really sure.

24 Q. Okay. And so this Exhibit 482 is what you

25 received -- or you received this in response to

130

1 your request for information about how the

2 offices were tracking non-issuances of voter

3 IDs?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. So are you able to tell from Exhibit 482

6 how many voter ID applications -- voter IDs

7 were not issued in Districts G, H and I?

8 A. Ask me that question again.

9 Q. Are you able to tell from Exhibit 482 how many

10 non-issuances of voter IDs Districts G, H and I

11 had?

12 A. I haven't really looked at the entire document

13 to count a number, but based on this chart, I

14 can see where it says H had one turned away,

15 but I haven't gone through the entire document

16 to count to see if there's something else in

17 there.

18 Q. Okay. And a minute ago I think you said you

19 didn't know whether this chart was a chart of

20 non-issuances; is that correct?

21 A. It says -- it says Free Voter ID and then it

22 says how reported, so not issued -- I'm just

23 reading from what it said here, so I'm just

24 reading what it says, so I would assume, just

25 based on what I'm reading, had one turned away,

131

1 something was turned away. So I don't know if

2 it was an issuance or a non-issuance. I can't

3 specifically speak to what that one is.

4 Q. Okay. So with the information provided in

5 Exhibit 482, you don't know how many voter ID

6 non-issuances these districts had. Is that

7 fair?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. After you sent the request -- or strike

10 that.

11 Do you know how many non-issuances of

12 voter IDs all of the offices had had since

13 January 2014?

14 A. I do not.

15 Q. Okay. Were you able to collect that

16 information in any complete way?

17 A. Can you rephrase that, please.

18 Q. Yeah. I just want to be clear. I don't mean

19 this as a memory test. I'm not saying do you

20 remember the number. What -- what I wonder is

21 were you ever able to determine how many

22 non-issuances the offices had.

23 A. Specifically I was not able to really determine

24 how many because I didn't have a clear idea of

25 what was being represented.

132

1 Q. Okay. Do you know whether -- is there anybody

2 else at DMV who would know the total number of

3 non-issuances of voter ID since January 2014?

4 A. I would say maybe the deputy commissioner,

5 Randy Dishong, would know.

6 Q. How would he know that?

7 A. He has been more involved in the process than I

8 have.

9 Q. Do you know -- you know, what are the sources

10 of information he would look to to determine

11 how many non-issuances of voter IDs there had

12 been?

13 A. I don't know what sources, what they would be,

14 no.

15 Q. Do you know any of the sources? Like if you

16 needed to figure out how many voter IDs had

17 been applied for but not issued, where would

18 you go to try to figure that out?

19 A. For what timeframe?

20 Q. From January 2014 to the present.

21 A. I would know where to go from January until the

22 time that I started tracking, which was in

23 March, so prior to that I would not know.

24 Q. Who would you ask if you needed to try to

25 figure that out?


mosierms

Highlight



34 (Pages 133 to 136)

133

1 A. I would start with Tracy Bucholtz.

2 Q. Okay. And you said Mr. Dishong might know the

3 total number of non-issuances. Who would

4 report that information to him?

5 A. I'm not sure.

6 Q. Are you currently reporting that information to

7 him?

8 A. I am providing the information to the director,

9 Ms. Portia Manley.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know is anybody reporting to

11 Mr. Dishong the number of non-issuances of

12 voter ID?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. When did you start reporting the non-issuances

15 to Ms. Manley?

16 A. I don't know the specific data. We started

17 this in March and we asked them to report at

18 the end of the month, so it would have to be

19 around April -- April -- for the month of April

20 we were able to collect all of April, so it

21 would have been this month.

22 Q. Okay. Did you collect at the end of March?

23 A. I think we were going through this process

24 trying to figure out what had been done prior

25 to asking about the memo, so no.

134

1 Q. So end of April was the first time you

2 collected this information?

3 A. First time I reported it, yes.

4 Q. Okay. To Ms. Manley?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And is April the first month that the new

7 system for reporting was in place?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. And do you know how many non-issuances

10 were reported to you for the month of April?

11 A. I can't remember an exact number. I'm sorry.

12 Q. In what form did you receive that report?

13 A. In the form of a spreadsheet --

14 Q. From whom?

15 A. -- an Excel spreadsheet.

16 The information was sent from the

17 district supervisors from all of their offices

18 to Ms. Polito, who is my assistant, and she put

19 together the chart and provided it to

20 Ms. Manley.

21 Q. Okay. And the monthly chart -- I guess you've

22 done only one chart so far. Excuse me.

23 Are you reporting just how many that

24 month were not issued or is it a cumulative

25 total?

135

1 A. It's the first month we've done it, so it is

2 just that month's information. The following

3 month would be the -- for April -- I'm sorry --

4 for April and May.

5 Q. And I think you said you don't remember how

6 many non-issuances there were. Can you give me

7 a ballpark?

8 A. One or two.

9 Q. Okay. So something less than ten?

10 A. I believe so.

11 Q. Okay. And the spreadsheet that your -- that

12 you've now asked the district supervisors to

13 compile and send to you, is that everybody who

14 comes in for a voter ID or do you have to get

15 to a certain stage in the application process

16 before you make it into that spreadsheet?

17 A. If I'm not -- if the examiner was not able to

18 issue, that goes on the spreadsheet.

19 Q. For individuals who come in for a voter ID and

20 who aren't able to obtain one, what does DMV do

21 to follow up with those customers?

22 A. Can you rephrase the question, please.

23 Q. Sure. Is DMV doing any followup with

24 individuals who come in seeking a voter ID but

25 for whatever reason aren't able to get one?

136

1 A. The district supervisors have been asked to

2 work with the senior examiners. If there is an

3 individual who's on that list that wasn't, for

4 whatever reason, able to get an ID card,

5 they've been asked to follow up, see what

6 happens. If it was -- because we're keeping

7 information into SADLS on the customer service

8 screen or customer comment screen with respect

9 to what happened. So they're asked to follow

10 up with the customer to see what happened, if

11 they could assist.

12 Q. When did DMV initiate this follow-up procedure?

13 A. I asked my district supervisors and chiefs to

14 do it -- I mean district supervisors and chiefs

15 and senior examiners to work with field staff.

16 I don't know what was in place prior to

17 me so it would have been right around the time

18 I sent this memo when I first was aware of this

19 being done.

20 Q. So March 2015 is when DMV implemented this

21 follow-up procedure?

22 A. I don't know if it was just then implemented.

23 They may have been doing it prior to me, but I

24 am aware of it happening since March with me.

25 Q. Have you heard of any kind of follow-up


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35 (Pages 137 to 140)

137

1 procedure that they were taking before this

2 directive in March?

3 A. I have not, but that's not to say it hasn't

4 happened.

5 Q. So you said you asked your -- is it the senior

6 examiners to do followup?

7 A. When I say I'm asking, there's a chain, so I'm

8 conveying information to my chiefs who's

9 conveying it to the district supervisors, who

10 works for the chiefs, and the district

11 supervisors are conveying it to the seniors and

12 then the seniors who have examiners reporting

13 directly to them are conveying the same

14 information, so it's a chain of conveying

15 information, if you will.

16 Q. And who in that chain is doing the followup?

17 A. The district supervisors and the seniors and

18 the chiefs.

19 Q. Okay. And what are they doing to follow up?

20 A. Follow up with respect to?

21 Q. Voter ID applicants who were not issued a voter

22 ID.

23 A. Following up with the team, they are saying,

24 you know, if you're seeing a name on the --

25 what are you doing, make sure you complete the

138

1 list, make sure that you're putting the

2 non-issuances on the spreadsheet.

3 The district supervisors and the

4 seniors, if there is an issue with the

5 customer, more so the district supervisors are

6 following up with the customer to see what the

7 issue was.

8 Q. How are they following up with the customer?

9 A. Via phone call. We capture e-mails and

10 telephone numbers, so if there's a phone number

11 in the system, they'll make phone calls; if

12 there's an e-mail, they could be sending an

13 e-mail; if there is an issue that goes on a

14 report that Ms. Tracy gets, then I believe

15 there's another process, but I'm not familiar

16 with that follow-up process.

17 Q. What is the report that you're referring to?

18 A. I don't remember the name of the report, but

19 the report is something that Tracy keeps up

20 with so you would have to speak with her on

21 that report, but it has the voter IDs that were

22 not, I guess, transmitted to SBOE, so I'm not

23 really familiar with exactly that entire

24 process.

25 Q. And you said Ms. Bucholtz follows up with

139

1 individuals who are on that report. Is that

2 what you were saying?

3 A. Let me restate. She maintains the report and

4 works with the State Board of Elections on

5 those issues of non-issuance of voter IDs or --

6 I'm misstating.

7 It's an application that didn't go

8 through the system that she reports, so it's

9 not a non-issuance. It's an application that

10 wasn't scanned properly.

11 Q. An application to register to vote?

12 A. Exactly.

13 Q. So I just want to make sure I'm understanding

14 the universe here. Am I right you have now as

15 of March asked the district supervisors to be

16 compiling these spreadsheets and sending them

17 to you on a monthly basis; is that right?


19 Q. Are the examiners also entering comments into

20 SADLS when they are unable to issue a voter ID?

21 A. They should be, but I haven't gone to

22 personally look, but they should be. They're

23 trained to do that.

24 Q. Okay. Is DMV doing anything to track that step

25 in the process of the examiners entering

140

1 comments?

2 A. I'm not sure.

3 Q. Is there a schedule for the -- for the district

4 supervisors to do their followup with the

5 customers?

6 A. There is no schedule that I'm aware of.

7 Q. Okay. So there's no sort of timeline that says

8 by X date, you should have called the customer?

9 A. There is a policy -- standalone policy that

10 speaks directly to how you interact with the

11 customer, so I'm assuming that -- we have an

12 eight-hour turnaround on responding to e-mail

13 so it should be as soon as they are made aware

14 of an issue.

15 Q. And they're collecting this information on a

16 monthly basis?

17 A. They're providing me with the non-issuance on a

18 monthly basis.

19 Q. When do the district supervisors learn of the

20 non-issuance?

21 A. I'm not sure when they are made aware of them.

22 Q. And they're receiving the reports from the

23 senior examiners; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. See, I'm getting the chain down slowly,


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36 (Pages 141 to 144)

141

1 painfully.

2 Let's go back to Exhibit 221, the VIVA

3 memo. This Exhibit 221 is an internal DMV

4 document; is that right?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. Okay. So it's not distributed to the public?

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. You don't know?

9 A. No, I don't know if anyone in the public knows

10 this document.

11 Q. And Page 18, the Alternative Identity Documents

12 List, that's not distributed to the public?

13 A. Not as of yet.

14 Q. You said not as of yet. Are there plans to

15 distribute it to the public?

16 A. I'm not sure if there are plans. There has

17 been some discussions.

18 Q. Okay. What kind of discussions?

19 A. Just discussion about what we could do to be

20 better, to do better with servicing and making

21 our customers aware of this identity list.

22 Q. Okay. Who's been involved in those

23 discussions?

24 A. I've been talking with Mr. Smith here, but I'm

25 not sure who else has been involved in the

142

1 conversation. I was just made aware of it.

2 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any plans to publish

3 this list publicly?

4 A. We were discussing. I don't know what the

5 plans are.

6 Q. On Page 2 of Exhibit 221, there's the table in

7 the middle of the page there that says VIVA

8 Photo Identification Documents. What is --

9 what is this -- what information is in this

10 table?

11 A. It's a list of documents acceptable by VIVA for

12 voting. That's what this Figure 1 indicates it

13 is.

14 Q. So these are the types of photo IDs that will

15 be accepted for voting under VIVA. Is that

16 your understanding?

17 A. I assume so, yes.

18 Q. Well, how do the examiners use this table?

19 A. I don't know how they -- how they use it. Can

20 you ask the question again?

21 Q. Yeah. So this -- this list is here and it's --

22 why is this list here?

23 A. I believe this is a list that they use to

24 explain if you have these documents, the list

25 of items that you can use to register to vote

143

1 besides the no-fee voter ID. So I believe they

2 go through this list and say if you have these

3 things, then you can use them to vote.

4 Q. Okay. And if you have one of these other photo

5 identification documents, you're not eligible

6 for a free voter ID; is that right?


8 THE WITNESS: Rephrase that question,

9 please.

10 BY MS. RYAN:

11 Q. Will the DMV issue a voter ID to an individual

12 who possesses one of these documents listed on

13 Page 2?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. Who would know the answer to that question?

16 A. Tracy Bucholtz.

17 Q. I'd like to ask about Scenario 3 on Page 8. If

18 a customer comes in and requests a voter ID and

19 the examiner pulls up the customer's record in

20 SADLS and SADLS shows that the customer has a

21 revoked driver's license, what is the examiner

22 instructed to do at that point?

23 A. If the license is revoked and the customer is

24 eligible for a voter ID, the examiner is

25 trained to issue the no-fee voter ID if it's

144

1 requested.

2 Q. Do you know whether a revoked driver's license

3 can be used for voting?


5 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

6 BY MS. RYAN:

7 Q. The scenario at the bottom of the paragraph

8 there says, "If the customer insists on the

9 issuance of a voter ID card" and then lists a

10 series of bullet points. Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What does it mean that the customer must insist

13 on the issuance of the voter ID card?

14 A. It doesn't say must, but it says if the

15 customer insists, I guess that would mean --

16 and I'm just guessing -- that if he just

17 adamantly requests, continues to request it or

18 ask for the identification card.

19 Q. Okay. So is the -- is the -- if the customer

20 does not adamantly request, is the default that

21 a customer with a revoked license would not

22 receive a voter ID card?

23 MR. FARR: Object to the form.

24 THE WITNESS: Can you rephrase, please.

25 BY MS. RYAN:




37 (Pages 145 to 148)

145

1 Q. You said that the customer insists means if the

2 customer adamantly requests or continues to

3 request. Does that mean -- in the case of a

4 voter -- or excuse me -- a customer with a

5 revoked driver's license, that if they don't

6 insist upon receiving a voter ID card, the

7 default is that the DMV would not issue one?


9 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.

10 BY MS. RYAN:

11 Q. Okay. So this -- the VIVA memo is the policy

12 guidance that the examiners receive on issuing

13 voter ID; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And so this is the document that instructs them

16 on DMV policy on issuing voter ID?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who's responsible for explaining to them what

19 these instructions mean?

20 A. Tracy uses this memo in her process of doing

21 the continuous education to make it clear.

22 Prior to that, I'm not sure who did it.

23 Q. When did Tracy start doing it?

24 A. When we started the Fort Fisher training, I

25 believe that's when she instituted going

146

1 through this with them specifically to make

2 sure they understood it. So this was part of

3 the continuing education training as well.

4 Q. That started in late April of 2015?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And before late April, do you know who was

7 responsible for explaining to the examiners

8 what the policy instructions meant?

9 A. Prior to my district supervisors and

10 chiefs -- I'm sorry -- my district supervisors

11 going over with the seniors and the seniors, I

12 don't know, I have no idea.

13 Q. Okay. And do you know who was responsible for

14 explaining to the district supervisors what the

15 meaning of the policy memo was?

16 A. Rephrase, please.

17 Q. I think you said that the district supervisors

18 went over the memo with the --

19 A. Right.

20 Q. -- seniors and the examiners. Who was

21 responsible for educating the district

22 supervisors about what the memo meant?

23 A. I don't -- I don't know how to answer that

24 question so ask me again.

25 What timeframe are you talking about?

147

1 Q. During your tenure --

2 A. Okay.

3 Q. -- as the assistant director, who was

4 responsible for educating the district

5 supervisors?

6 A. The chiefs.

7 Q. And who was responsible for educating the

8 chiefs about what the instructions in the memo

9 mean?

10 A. Prior to me coming on board, because I didn't

11 do it, Barbara Webb went over this with all the

12 chiefs and the district supervisors as well.

13 Q. As of when you came on board in June of 2014,

14 who was responsible for educating the chiefs

15 about what the instructions in the policy memo

16 mean?

17 A. They continue with the training that they

18 received from Ms. Webb.

19 Q. They didn't receive any additional training

20 after June 2014 on the memo?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Okay. Are you aware of any additional training

23 that they received after June of 2014?

24 A. No, I'm not.

25 Q. The Scenario 3 under the second bullet point

148

1 under the customer must, it says, be a

2 registered voter. Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I understand if the voter's not already

5 registered, DMV will register him; is that

6 right?

7 A. They will take the application, yes.

8 Q. Does DMV -- and in order to obtain a voter ID

9 card, you must be registered to vote; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Submit the application.

12 Q. Uh-huh. Does DMV wait for verification that

13 the voter registration went through

14 successfully before issuing the voter ID?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know what happens with respect to the

17 voter ID if the voter's -- if the registration

18 is ultimately denied?

19 A. I do not know.

20 Q. Does -- is DMV alerted to that fact?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Okay. Who would know whether DMV learns that a

23 voter registration was denied?

24 A. Tracy -- and I keep saying Tracy because she is

25 our SBOE liaison, so most of these things are




38 (Pages 149 to 152)

149

1 filtered through her or to her.

2 Q. As far as you know, would the denial of voter

3 registration prevent the voter ID card being

4 mailed to the customer?

5 A. I'm not sure.

6 Q. Let's flip to Page 15. Oh, I'm sorry, Page 13,

7 Scenario 15.

8 MR. FARR: What scenario are you on?

9 MS. RYAN: 15 on Page 13.

10 BY MS. RYAN:

11 Q. Is this talking about the homebound program?

12 A. I'm still reading. Can I finish reading it?

13 Q. Uh-huh.

14 A. Thanks. Yes, it is.

15 Q. Okay. Am I right that -- what is the homebound

16 program?

17 A. The homebound program is a program for those

18 people who are medically unable to leave their

19 house.

20 Q. And --

21 A. I say medically, incapable of leaving their

22 house.

23 Q. And somebody from DMV will visit their home to

24 assist them in completing service; is that

25 right?

150


2 Q. Is this program only available to individuals

3 who currently have a photo on file at DMV?

4 A. Currently it is.

5 Q. Okay. So it would apply to existing DMV

6 customers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are there plans to expand it beyond existing

9 DMV customers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me about those plans?

12 A. I haven't been in all of the meetings. The

13 meeting that I was privy to, we discussed the

14 ability for our vendor to capture an image to

15 upload it into our system.

16 Q. Okay. The vendor is Morpho Trust?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And who was involved in that meeting?

19 A. I think Barbara Webb, I was involved in one or

20 two, I believe, Portia Manley, Paula Winowitz

21 (phonetic), DMV staff, Tracy Bucholtz and

22 anyone that would be initiating the process.

23 So we've done a lot of reform, reorganizing, so

24 we're trying to determine where the homebound

25 program best lies.

151

1 Q. Does DMV have a plan to start taking pictures

2 of customers in their homes?

3 A. As part of the process that we're coming up,

4 the draft process.

5 Q. I'm sorry, the --

6 A. That's part of the draft process that we're

7 presenting to the commissioner.

8 Q. The draft for the homebound program?


10 Q. Do you have -- are you planning to propose that

11 you expand the program to new customers?

12 A. What do you mean when you say new customers?

13 Q. To individuals who didn't already have a photo

14 on file.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you have any idea when that program may be

17 implemented?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. Does anybody at DMV know when it may be

20 implemented?

21 A. It's still in the planning phase, so I don't

22 know that there is a date as of yet. It's

23 still to be determined.

24 Q. Okay. Do you think it might go into effect

25 this year or would that be too soon?

152

1 A. I'm not sure.

2 Q. Under the current program for folks who do have

3 a photo on file, how old can that photo be?

4 A. I don't know the answer to that one.

5 Q. Do you know if any voter IDs have been issued

6 through this program?

7 A. I do not.

8 Q. Are voter ID customers eligible for the

9 homebound program?


11 Q. Could a voter ID be issued through a homebound

12 visit?

13 A. A no-fee ID, if we have an image on file, yes.

14 Q. And it's a license and theft inspector who does

15 the homebound visit; is that correct?


17 Q. Are they law enforcement officers?

18 A. They are.

19 Q. Do you know how long after the home visit the

20 customer receives his ID?

21 A. I'm trying to remember the date. 30 days,

22 seems like the completed process. So that

23 would include from start to finish how long it

24 takes I believe is 30 days, but I'm not really

25 sure of the timeframe.




39 (Pages 153 to 156)

153

1 Q. Okay. So when a customer comes in for a voter

2 ID and doesn't have the documentation that he

3 needs to prove his identity, I think you said

4 earlier the examiner is instructed to do

5 whatever he can to assist the customer; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes. Let me restate. I said they were trained

8 to go through every effort to assist the

9 customer.

10 Q. Okay. And is it correct -- so what is it that

11 the examiners are trained to do to assist the

12 customer?

13 A. When they come in to ask for a no-fee voter ID,

14 the examiner, they're trained to ask what

15 identification documents do you have. If they

16 have documents, look at the documents to see if

17 they're on the list. If they're not on the

18 list, see if we can get approval for those

19 additional documents.

20 If they don't have documents, they ask

21 a series of questions, especially for those

22 that are already in the system that have been

23 established through an application. So they're

24 trained to go through every effort to assist

25 the customer.

154

1 Q. Okay. And for individuals who don't have any

2 documents with them, what can the examiner do

3 to assist that person?

4 A. If they have absolutely nothing and there

5 hasn't been -- every effort has been made to

6 assist the customer and they can't establish

7 identity, they offer the customer an

8 appointment -- they go through the identity

9 list, the ID list, to ensure that the customer

10 can find something on that list so that when

11 they come back during their appointed time,

12 their appointment, that we can issue without

13 them waiting in line again.

14 Q. And will the examiner, you know, provide the

15 customer any information about how to obtain

16 additional documents to prove identity?

17 A. I'm not aware that they have been trained to do

18 that. Sometimes you have those examiners who

19 are stellar who may go above and beyond, but

20 they're trained to just go to the extent of the

21 list, asking the questions and just making

22 every effort.

23 Q. Okay. Do they have training on where these

24 identity documents could be obtained?


155

1 Q. This is already marked Exhibit 222, and these

2 are interrogatory responses that were served by

3 the defendants in this case. That just means

4 that the plaintiffs wrote written questions and

5 the defendants responded?

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. Were written answers -- and I'd like you to

8 flip to Page 4 to Interrogatory Number 7.

9 MR. FARR: Are you going to ask her if

10 she had anything to do with this?

11 BY MS. RYAN:

12 Q. First I'm going to ask you to take a moment to

13 just read Question Number 7 so you know what

14 it's about.

15 MR. FARR: Can we go off the record

16 because this is quite lengthy and I --


18 3:42 p.m.

19 (Brief Recess.)


21 3:59 p.m.

22 BY MS. RYAN:

23 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, have you now had a chance to

24 read Interrogatory 7 and the response?

25 A. Yes.

156

1 Q. Have you ever seen this before?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Could you please flip to Page 10. I'm sure you

4 notice there are several paragraph numbers in

5 response to Interrogatory 7, right, as part of

6 the response.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm going to ask you about one of the

9 subparagraphs under Paragraph 5, which starts

10 on Page 10, but the one I want to ask you about

11 is actually on Page 11.

12 So it's G at the bottom of Page 11, and

13 the first sentence says:

14 "NCDMV has a plan in place to deal

15 with extraordinary case of a customer

16 who presents at an NCDMV location with

17 absolutely no documentation."

18 Are you familiar with the DMV's plan

19 for individuals who appear with no

20 documentation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I'm sorry. You're not?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Okay. Do you know whether this plan has ever

25 been implemented?




40 (Pages 157 to 160)

157

1 A. I do not.

2 Q. Okay. Paragraph G says on Page 12 in about the

3 middle that in such a case -- such a case would

4 be elevated to the office of the director of

5 driver services.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that Portia Manley?

8 A. Yes. Let me restate. She's the director of

9 field services.

10 Q. Is there a director of driver services these

11 days?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And you don't know whether anybody has had

14 to -- any customer has had to use this

15 procedure?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. We were talking a few minutes ago about the

18 spreadsheets that you asked the district

19 supervisors to start reporting to you on a

20 monthly basis. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I guess it was in March that you asked them

23 to start doing this.

24 A. I believe March, yes.

25 Q. What information are you tracking in those

158

1 spreadsheets?

2 A. Without the form being right in front of me, I

3 can't remember exactly everything, but we're

4 asking for the customer identification number,

5 i.e., the driver's license number or ID number,

6 the location, whether or not they were issued,

7 and they would indicate yes or no. If it's no,

8 why they were not issued.

9 And I can't remember exactly everything

10 else that's in there.

11 Q. Okay. So are you talking issuances as well as

12 non-issuances?

13 A. On this form that we have, we've had some "yes"

14 for this last month, was it issued, but we've

15 asked for just non-issuances because the

16 issuances are captured in SADLS.

17 So next month when it goes out, we are

18 going to reiterate that we only want to make

19 sure that we are capturing the N's, those that

20 are not issued.

21 Q. And when you say "we," who's helping you with

22 this process?

23 A. I'm talking about the field personnel because

24 they're actually capturing the data and sending

25 the data to Patty.

159

1 Q. Okay. I think that is all the questions that I

2 have for you, Ms. Boyd-Malette. I think that

3 my colleague may have some.

4 MR. EPPSTEINER: I think we're going to

5 have the folks on the phone go and then I'll

6 wrap things up.

7 MR. FARR: Okay. Are they ready to ask

8 questions now? Is anybody on the phone?

9 MR. WENZINGER: Yeah, I'm ready if you

10 guys are ready, if you want to do it now, or

11 take a break now, it's up to you.

12 MR. FARR: Why don't we start, we'll

13 take a break after you're finished.

14 EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. WENZINGER:

16 Q. Okay. Ms. Boyd-Malette, my name is Joseph

17 Wenzinger. I represent the Duke intervenor

18 plaintiffs.

19 Can you hear me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Good. My first question is that you mentioned

22 that you deal with the day-to-day operations of

23 the DMV offices; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you -- to what extent in that role do you

160

1 deal with customer complaints?

2 A. If a customer complaint is elevated to my

3 level, that comes from the field, past the

4 district supervisor, senior and the chiefs.

5 That's the only time I'm involved. Most of the

6 complaints are handled in the field by the

7 district supervisors and the chiefs.

8 Q. So what -- what kind of complaints are elevated

9 to you?

10 A. I get all types, such as customer service

11 complaints, complaints regarding the inability

12 to get an appointment, a complaint about a

13 service time, a wait time, things of that

14 nature.

15 Q. Would that include if someone went in to get a

16 credential, for example, a voter ID or a

17 driver's license and for whatever reason they

18 were told that they couldn't obtain one with

19 their documentation, do such complaints go to

20 you?

21 A. Those complaints go to Tracy Bucholtz.

22 Q. Okay. So in the course of your employment, you

23 never see complaints like that that you handle?

24 A. I may see them, but I have not handled them

25 because they're forwarded to our liaison for




41 (Pages 161 to 164)

161

1 tracking purposes.

2 Q. Okay. You also mentioned before that once

3 you -- once a customer applies for a driver's

4 license, they don't immediately get the

5 license, they get what's called a temporary

6 driving certificate; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And how -- approximately how long does it take

9 to get this driver's license after they get a

10 temporary certificate?

11 A. It's right after the photo is taken, so I take

12 a photo and then the printer automatically

13 generates the temporary driving -- temporary

14 driving certificate.

15 Q. And then the actual driver's license is mailed

16 to them; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And how long does it take for the driver's

19 license to get mailed to them?

20 A. We indicate that this could take five to ten

21 business days.

22 Q. So is it mailed then or is that when they

23 receive it?

24 A. Can you rephrase that question, please.

25 Q. Do you -- do you mail within five to ten days

162

1 or do you suggest that they should have

2 received it within five to ten days?

3 A. They should have received it within five to ten

4 business days.

5 Q. Okay. Have you heard -- in the course of your

6 employment, have you heard of any problems with

7 delays in that process?

8 A. I have not.

9 Q. Okay. And then it's the same ten business days

10 for the non-operator ID cards?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also mentioned that for any fee-based card

13 there's a $10 fee for a name change.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is there any circumstances where this fee can

16 be waived?

17 A. The first question was it was $10 -- you asked

18 me if it was $10 for the -- can you ask the

19 question again, please.

20 Q. Yeah. Well, I believe you said before that if

21 they -- for non- -- or for fee-based cards, if

22 they want to change their name, there's a $10

23 fee, I believe it's for duplicates; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

163

1 Q. Is there -- under any circumstances can that

2 fee be waived?


4 Q. Okay. All right. You also talked about two

5 meetings in or around March 2015 about the

6 voter ID program and the VIVA memo. You said

7 that you didn't know what prompted the first

8 meeting. Do you know what prompted the second

9 meeting?

10 A. I'm not sure I understand your question.

11 Q. Meaning you said that you reiterated some

12 things -- the purpose of the second meeting was

13 to reiterate some things that you discussed at

14 the first meeting. Was there any events that

15 occurred that required -- that made such a

16 reiteration necessary?


18 Q. Okay. All right. I'm looking at Exhibit 221

19 again. Is that still in front of you?

20 MR. FARR: I think it's this right

21 here.

22 THE WITNESS: I have it.


24 Q. All right. Good. On Page 18, that's the list

25 of documents that if the person says I have two

164

1 of the required documents for voter ID of this

2 list of 21 they can use instead; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'm interested in clearing up what's provided

6 in the information-provided column. Does that

7 mean that the examiner will not automatically

8 accept this documentation if the form of

9 documentation doesn't have both or all of that

10 pieces of information that's in that column?

11 A. Can you rephrase that question.

12 Q. Yeah. Well, I'll just give you an example.

13 Number 2 is college or student ID. The

14 information provided says name, date of birth,

15 issue date. If a college student goes in there

16 with a student ID that, for example, doesn't

17 have the date of birth, it just has name and

18 issue date, does that mean that the college or

19 student ID will not be accepted for voter ID

20 purposes?

21 A. I'm not sure.

22 Q. You're not sure?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know who would know the answer to that

25 question?




42 (Pages 165 to 168)

165

1 A. I would say Tracy.

2 Q. Okay. Suppose a college student came in with

3 an ID and tried to apply for a voter ID,

4 would -- would that be reflected in the comment

5 section of SADLS?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would they use any particular words to

8 effectuate that?

9 A. It could vary. I'm not sure specifically what

10 one examiner would put from another one.

11 Q. But you're not aware of any training

12 requirements the examiners are supposed to

13 follow specifically with respect to college or

14 student IDs?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. And now that same exhibit on Page 11.

17 Are you there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Great. Scenario 12 is labeled Customer is

20 Transferring out of state driver's license to

21 state. In Scenario 12A is titled Student that

22 holds an out-of-state driver's license requests

23 a voter ID card.

24 Do you know in preparation for writing

25 this memo, did it ever -- were there any

166

1 discussions for including 12A?2 A. I wasn't a part of drafting this memo. I don't3 know.4 Q. So you don't know or you haven't heard from5 anybody why scenario 12A was requested?6 A. No.7 Q. So in -- in the course of your employment, do8 you have any reason to think that there's9 students with out-of-state license are treated

10 any differently with students with out-of-state11 driver's license?12 A. Can you ask that question again, please.13 Q. Yeah. Are students with out-of-state driver's14 license who apply for voter ID cards treated15 any differently than non-students who use the16 same cards?17 A. I don't know.18 Q. Okay. You also talked in your previous19 testimony about non-issuances of voter ID20 cards. Do you recall that?21 A. Yes.22 Q. I just want to nail down exactly what it means23 to have a non-issuance of a voter ID card.24 What -- how would you define that?25 What constitutes a non-issuance?

167

1 A. The customer walking out of the driver's

2 license office without being issued the no-fee

3 ID card for the application -- not being able

4 to receive the ID card.

5 Q. So they have to go in and ask for it and be

6 denied; is that correct?

7 A. I don't --


9 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what

10 you mean when you say denied. When you go into

11 the driver's license office -- I'm not clear on

12 what you're asking me.


14 Q. So I'm just trying to figure out what exactly

15 it means to be non-issued.

16 Does the customer have to go in trying

17 to get a voter ID card and then at what point

18 does he not get it? Is it because he doesn't

19 have all of his documents?

20 A. If the customer goes in and we're unable to

21 assist the customer with obtaining the no-fee

22 ID, they're not denied. We made every effort

23 to issue the document, we made them an

24 appointment to come in after we've gone through

25 the identification that they can have to come

168

1 back to the driver's license office.

2 Q. Okay. So if someone -- if someone comes in and

3 just seeks information about how to obtain a

4 voter ID card, would you count that as a

5 non-issuance?

6 A. No because they're not asking for an ID card.

7 They're just seeking information.

8 Q. So what if that person never comes back, are

9 they still -- is that still considered a

10 non-issuance?

11 MR. FARR: Objection to the form. It's

12 a hypothetical.

13 You can answer that if you can.

14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you're

15 asking. So can you rephrase that question,

16 please.


18 Q. So I'm thinking of an example, someone comes in

19 to the DMV and says what -- what documents do I

20 need to prove my identity to get this card and

21 then the customer -- so they're just seeking

22 information, and then the examiner gives him

23 that information and then he walks -- the

24 person walks out the door, is that considered a

25 non-issuance?




43 (Pages 169 to 172)

169

1 A. It's not considered a non-issuance, no.2 Q. Okay. Even if that person doesn't come back,3 there's no -- will anybody follow up with that4 person to see if they perhaps obtained the5 necessary documentation?6 MR. FARR: Objection to the form.7 Answer it if you can.8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.9 BY MR. WENZINGER:

10 Q. Okay. Is there any specific training that you11 know of that examiners get in that situation12 where a customer just comes in seeking13 information?14 A. A customer coming in seeking information15 regarding anything with a driver services --16 driver service is provided the information and17 they're trained to provide the information for18 whatever service the customer is inquiring19 about.20 Q. But for you to mark down that there's a21 non-issuance of voter ID card, they have to22 specifically ask for one?23 A. They have to come into the office and ask for24 an issuance, and if we're unable to issue what25 they're requesting, in this instance a

170

1 non-issuance, it is marked as a non-issuance,

2 or, no, it's indicated on the sheet by N for

3 "no" and the reason why they weren't able to

4 issue was also captured.

5 And like I said before, the customer

6 is -- and the examiner go through both of the

7 ID forms list to see what the customer actually

8 has, an appointment is made for the customer

9 and the customer returns at the time their

10 appointment is.

11 Q. Okay. Is there any field in SADLS for a

12 customer who seeks information?


14 Q. So there's no training protocol for an examiner

15 to write in the comments that the customer also

16 asked about voter ID even if they were in for

17 another reason?


19 Q. Okay. Earlier you said that in April you

20 started tracking the non-issuances of voter ID

21 cards; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you were asked for a ballpark figure -- I'm

24 not sure I heard you correctly over the phone.

25 Did you say one or two?

171

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that's for all DMV offices in the state?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you also -- did you keep information on the

5 demographics of those people?

6 A. No. When you say demographics, what

7 specifically are you asking me about?

8 Q. Age.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is that information available?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So would that just entail looking at the

13 customer ID number and looking up the customer?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you say there were one or two non-issuances.

16 Is there any record of how many voter ID cards

17 were given out in April?

18 A. I don't have that information, but I do believe

19 there is a report.

20 Q. Do you know who has that report?

21 A. Tracy Bucholtz.

22 Q. Okay. And I think that's all I have. Thank

23 you.

24 MR. FARR: Should we take a short

25 break.

172

1 MR. EPPSTEINER: Before we take a

2 break, I'm just confirming does counsel for the

3 NAACP have no questions that they're going to

4 ask this witness.

5 MS. BAUSCH: Sorry. No, no questions.

6 MR. EPPSTEINER: Thank you. Let's take

7 a break.


9 4:19 p.m.

10 (Brief Recess.)


12 4:31.

13 EXAMINATION

14 BY MR. EPPSTEINER:

15 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, again, my name is George

16 Eppsteiner. I'm counsel for League of Women

17 Voters plaintiffs in this matter and I have

18 some questions for you. And so far I

19 appreciate your time and your patience

20 throughout the course of the day, so first,

21 thank you.

22 I wanted to follow up first on some

23 questions that were asked of you previously.

24 Would it be considered a non-issuance

25 of a voter ID if someone shows up to a driver's




44 (Pages 173 to 176)

173

1 license office and they don't have the

2 documents they need and then they make a

3 follow-up appointment to come back?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does the DMV keep track of non-issuances for

6 other ID cards other than voter IDs?

7 A. No, not that I'm aware of.

8 Q. So, for example, just a regular ID card that

9 costs $10, you're not aware of the DMV keeping

10 track of non-issuances of those?

11 A. I'm not aware.

12 Q. Or driver's license?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Or other free IDs such as if you're over 70,

15 for example?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you aware of any way to get a voter ID

18 directly from the State Board of Elections?

19 A. No.

20 Q. I believe you testified that Tracy Bucholtz

21 handles e-mail inquiries regarding issues as to

22 obtaining a voter ID; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you been on e-mails regarding customers

25 that have gone into a DMV office and have had

174

1 some trouble getting a voter ID?

2 A. Have I been on e-mails?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I've been copied.

5 Q. I'm going to hand you what's going to be marked

6 as Exhibit 483.




10 Q. For your reference, it's double-sided.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Can you take a moment to look at the document,

13 please, and let me know when you're ready.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. And this e-mail was sent from you from

16 Elisabeth Wise; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Elisabeth Wise is executive assistant to

19 Commissioner Thomas; is that correct?


21 Q. And I'm going to paraphrase from the e-mail,

22 but would you agree that if you look at the

23 bottom of Page 1 through Page 2, it's talking

24 about Berdell Alexander Christie who went with

25 her son to get a voter ID card to the

175

1 Rockingham DMV office and they were told that

2 they would have to show a certified birth

3 certificate. Is that a fair description?

4 A. That's what the e-mail says, yes.

5 Q. And they tried getting a birth certificate and

6 the county had no record of her birth.

7 MR. FARR: That's what the e-mail says.

8 THE WITNESS: Based on that, that's

9 what the e-mail indicates.


11 Q. And you were asked by Elisabeth Wise to call

12 Mark Christie who I believe is the son of

13 Berdell Alexander Christie.

14 Do you recall this e-mail?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Do you recall calling Mark Christie?

17 A. I do not.

18 Q. Do you think that you did?

19 A. If I received this, and I don't remember it, I

20 probably would have escalated or sent it to the

21 chief and I would have sent it to Tracy

22 Bucholtz, but I don't remember this e-mail.

23 Q. So you would have sent it to Tracy Bucholtz.

24 And when you say the chief, who would the chief

25 be if it's related to the Rockingham DMV

176

1 office?


3 Q. But you have no recollection of calling Mark

4 Christie discussing this issue, do you?

5 A. I don't remember. I don't recall.

6 Q. Ms. Buck -- I'm sorry. Ms. Boyd-Malette, I

7 apologize, we were talking about Tracy

8 Bucholtz. I'm showing you what's going to be

9 marked as Exhibit 484 to your deposition.




13 Q. And is this an e-mail that you received from

14 Tracy Bucholtz on January 15, 2015?

15 MR. FARR: Give her some time to read

16 it, George.


18 Q. Well, before you review it, I just want you to

19 look at the top page, if this is an e-mail that

20 you received from Tracy Bucholtz on January 15,

21 2015.

22 A. It would appear so.

23 Q. So I'm going to be asking you -- I'm not going

24 to be asking you about the entire document, but

25 if you could look at Page 11 and Page 12 of the




45 (Pages 177 to 180)

177

1 exhibit, please, and let me know when you've

2 read that portion. I'm talking about the

3 bottom of Page 11, it appears to be an e-mail

4 from Veronica Degraffenreid to Viola Williams

5 and then continuing to Page 12.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. So again I'm paraphrasing here, but it appears

8 to be an e-mail from the director of the Hyde

9 County Board of Elections to Veronica

10 Degraffenreid who works for the Board of

11 Elections; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Have you communicated with Veronica

14 Degraffenreid by e-mail before?

15 A. If I have, I don't recall.

16 Q. So again to paraphrase, the Hyde County Board

17 of Elections director is saying that one of

18 their board members works with an agency that

19 works with disabled, special needs people and

20 they took a client to get a DMV-issued photo ID

21 and the DMV charged the person $10 and told

22 them that the ID is not free to people who are

23 already registered to vote, the free ID only

24 applies to people who need it to register.

25 Is that a fair description of that part

178

1 of the e-mail?

2 A. That's what it reads.

3 Q. Now, if you go a couple pages to Page 7, the

4 top of Page 7, it appears to be an e-mail from

5 Brian LiVecchi to Ted Fitzgerald about three

6 months later on January 13, 2015. Do you see

7 that?

8 A. At the top of the page, yes.

9 Q. And it says in part, quote, "I forwarded to DMV

10 on 10/20/2014 and have heard nothing since."

11 Do you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And then if you look to Page 2 of the e-mail,

14 halfway down it appears to be an e-mail from

15 Portia Manley to yourself on January 14, 2015;

16 is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Saying, quote:

19 "Charlotte, please get with Deanna

20 and discuss. Maybe this can be addressed

21 during a training class for examiners."

22 Is that what it says?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall -- well, first of all, who is

25 Deanna?

179

1 A. Deanna Sevits who's the director of training.

2 Q. Do you recall having some kind of communication

3 with the director of training regarding this

4 situation?


6 Q. Do you recall hearing about an issue in Hyde

7 County regarding somebody saying that you need

8 to not be registered yet to get an ID?

9 A. I don't really recall, no, I don't.

10 Q. And do you recall any discussions with DMV

11 employees about an issue that had been

12 forwarded to DMV three months previously and

13 the State Board was again following up?

14 A. Can you ask me that question again.

15 Q. Sure. Do you recall any discussions with DMV

16 personnel about some kind of voter ID issue

17 that the State Board was again bringing to the

18 attention of the DMV three months later?


20 Q. And then if you look at Page 1 of the e-mail --

21 and I'm looking at the bottom of the page, so

22 it appears to be an e-mail from you to Portia

23 Manley dated January 15, 2015; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I'm reading just the first sentence of the

180

1 e-mail, but it says:

2 "Porsche, this will definitely be a

3 topic of discussion during the next DS

4 meeting."

5 Is DS district supervisors?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall this being a discussion -- so if

8 this e-mail was sent in January 2015, and I

9 believe you said that district supervisor

10 meetings occur every two or three months or so

11 and I believe you previously testified that a

12 meeting did occur in March of 2015.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall this particular issue being

15 discussed at that meeting?

16 A. I do not. And may I go in a little further?

17 Q. Sure.

18 A. When we're talking about things being discussed

19 during the district supervisor meeting, as I

20 reiterate, we talk about not just specific --

21 saying case specific but issues with respect to

22 things that are going out to the field, whether

23 it is a customer complaint, for customer

24 service, so generally, not specifically.

25 Q. Would an issue raised by the State Board of




46 (Pages 181 to 184)

181

1 Elections to the DMV regarding a voter ID issue

2 be something that would be addressed with the

3 district supervisors?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you think that something like this would be

6 discussed, you just don't recall?

7 A. I don't recall it.

8 Q. I'm going to show you what is going to be

9 marked as Exhibit 485 to your deposition.




13 Q. And again, the first two pages are

14 double-sided. Can you look at the e-mail and

15 let me know when you're ready to discuss it.

16 A. I'm ready.

17 Q. So this e-mail was forwarded to you from Portia

18 Manley on March 11, 2015; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So approximately two months ago?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And again I'm going to paraphrase here, but

23 looking at Page 3 of the document, it's

24 discussing a call that the State Board of

25 Elections received from Eunice Woody,

182

1 E-U-N-I-C-E and then Woody, W-O-O-D-Y, who is

2 in Yancey County who took her son to get a free

3 ID for voting and was told that the DMV, quote,

4 "hadn't given out a free ID yet and wasn't

5 planning to," end quote. The son then paid $10

6 for the DMV card.

7 Do you recall discussing this situation

8 with DMV employees?

9 A. I don't recall it.

10 Q. So you have no recollection of this e-mail at

11 all?

12 A. I get several e-mails, so I don't specifically

13 remember this e-mail.

14 Q. And you said you didn't have any recollection

15 of the e-mails we previously discussed about

16 not having a birth certificate so the person

17 couldn't get an ID, right, you didn't recall

18 that e-mail either?

19 A. Which e-mail are you referring to?

20 Q. That was Exhibit 483.

21 A. I don't specifically remember it, no.

22 Q. And I believe you said you didn't recall

23 communications related to the content contained

24 in Exhibit 484 which was essentially somebody

25 being told that you couldn't get a free ID for

183

1 voting if you were already registered, you said

2 you don't have any recollection of that either,

3 right?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Do you know -- do you have any idea when Portia

6 Manley -- who's the director of field services,

7 right?


9 Q. When she sends you an e-mail that's marked high

10 importance but doesn't have any language in the

11 content of the e-mail, does that usually mean

12 something in particular?

13 A. High would indicate high importance.

14 Q. Do you have any other understanding of what

15 Portia Manley may have been asking you to do in

16 sending you that e-mail?

17 A. Not without any wording being put here, no.

18 Q. I'm going to show you what's going to be marked

19 as Exhibit 486 to your deposition.




23 Q. I'm not going to ask you about the entire

24 e-mail but looking at the first page, this is

25 an e-mail that you were copied on August 4,

184

1 2014; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And looking at the bottom of Page 3 to the top

4 of Page 4, I'm just going to -- I'm just going

5 to read directly from the e-mail. Where I'm

6 reading is the bottom of Page 3, the second to

7 last line beginning with "Today."

8 "Today our" --

9 MR. FARR: Wait a second. I don't know

10 where you are.

11 MR. EPPSTEINER: Okay. Tom, I'm at the

12 bottom of Page 3, the second to last line

13 beginning with "Today."

14 MR. FARR: Can we say who the e-mail is

15 from and who it's to.

16 MR. EPPSTEINER: Jan Richter to Rosalie

17 Calarco.

18 MR. FARR: Okay.


20 Q. "Today our Social Security cards,

21 military IDs, usaa ins cards, Medicare

22 cards, letters to me from SS with new

23 address and mortgage papers for Charles

24 with new address and our unexpired

25 licenses from AR were not acceptable




47 (Pages 185 to 188)

185

1 forms of identification because each

2 read either Jan S. Richter or Charles O.

3 Cranford."

4 What this -- the body of this e-mail is

5 describing is an experience of customers

6 attempting to get a driver's license from the

7 DMV and presenting various forms of

8 identification but not having the full middle

9 name. Is that your understanding of the

10 language in that e-mail?


12 THE WITNESS: I would have to read -- I

13 just listened to you read. I would have to

14 read it again.

15 MR. EPPSTEINER: Okay. Well, why don't

16 we go off the record for a minute so you can

17 read the full e-mail.

18 Can we go off the record briefly.


20 4:52 p.m.

21 (Brief Recess.)


23 4:57 p.m.


25 Q. So we're back on the record after the witness

186

1 reviewed in full Exhibit 486.2 Ms. Boyd-Malette, again I'm going to3 paraphrase here because it's a long e-mail, but4 is essentially the issue that a couple went to5 a DMV office and they had various forms of6 identification and they were trying to get a7 driver's license but the forms of8 identification that they had with them did not9 have their full middle names so they weren't

10 issued a driver's license at that first visit?11 Is that fair?12 A. Yes.13 Q. And I believe if you look through the e-mail14 chain that this issue presented itself by -- by15 Rosalie Calarco of the North Carolina House16 forwarding the issue to the executive assistant17 to Commissioner Thomas; is that correct?18 A. It appears so.19 Q. And if you look at -- and is that consistent20 with your testimony previously in the21 deposition where you talked about if you don't22 have documents with your full middle initial,23 you would need some document with the full24 middle name in order to receive a driver's25 license credential?

187


2 THE WITNESS: Can you rephrase because

3 I don't understand what you're asking me.


5 Q. Sure. Is the issue here where the couple

6 didn't have a document with their full middle

7 name on it, is that consistent with your

8 testimony previously about what a document

9 needs to contain on it as to the middle name

10 when you try to get a DMV credential?

11 A. I believe so.

12 Q. And if you look at the first page of the

13 document, which is an e-mail from Daniel Ervin

14 to Teresa Crudup, which you're copied on, if

15 you look at the third sentence, it says, quote,

16 "The examiner followed policy to the letter."

17 Do you believe that means they followed

18 DMV policy perfectly?


20 THE WITNESS: I don't know what it

21 means.


23 Q. Do you have any idea what, quote, "the examiner

24 followed policy to the letter" means?

25 MR. FARR: She didn't write the e-mail,

188

1 George.

2 MR. EPPSTEINER: I'm just asking her if

3 they --

4 MR. FARR: I don't know how she would.



7 Q. When -- and again, there's some shorthand words

8 used in this e-mail that I'm curious if you

9 understand what they mean because of your

10 position at DMV. The e-mail says that Jan

11 Richter and Charles 0. Cranford presented,

12 quote, AR/DI or AR/DL, I'm not sure which, do

13 you know what that means?

14 A. I don't know what it means.

15 Q. What about Mil. id?

16 A. If I had to guess, I would think it would be

17 military ID.

18 Q. What about SS.CD?

19 A. If I had to guess, Social Security card. I'm

20 not sure what it means, but if I had to guess,

21 that's what I would assume it would mean.

22 Q. And finally, what about proof of ins.?

23 A. I'm not sure.

24 Q. Do you have any recollection of this scenario

25 occurring or any communications about this




48 (Pages 189 to 192)

189

1 scenario?

2 A. This specific, no, I don't.

3 MR. FARR: George, I apologize, but I

4 need to take a quick break.

5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

6 at 5:01 p.m.

7 (Brief Recess.)


9 5:06 p.m.

10 MR. EPPSTEINER: I'm going to hand you

11 what's going to be marked as Exhibit 487 to

12 your deposition.




16 Q. If you could review the document and let me

17 know when you're ready to be asked questions

18 about it.

19 A. I'm ready.

20 Q. So again, I'm going to paraphrase here, but

21 this is an e-mail that you were copied on,

22 correct, on October 3rd, 2014?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the issue described in the e-mail -- and

25 I'm looking at Page 3, but again I'm

190

1 paraphrasing, was that Alice Rogers went to the

2 Williamston DMV and they wouldn't give her a

3 free photo ID because she used to have a

4 driver's license.

5 MR. FARR: George, I would just like to

6 clarify that there's no testimony here from

7 Ms. Rogers in this e-mail, so there's a report

8 to Mr. Fitzgerald based upon a phone call from

9 Alice Rogers.

10 MR. EPPSTEINER: Right, and I'm asking

11 the witness -- I'm going to be asking the

12 witness what she knows about this

13 communication.

14 MR. FARR: Okay, but I just want to

15 make sure that that is a report received by Ted

16 Fitzgerald.

17 MR. EPPSTEINER: Okay.


19 Q. So again, Ms. Rogers, it says she gave up her

20 license some years ago because she's disabled

21 and, quote, "she was told by the DMV the free

22 ID is only for persons who never had a driver's

23 license or ID card." And then someone at

24 DMV -- if you look at the first page of the

25 document, Stacy Wooten says she will

191

1 investigate this matter now and will provide

2 you with a complete report. And I believe

3 that's the first -- that's when you became

4 attached to the e-mail chain; is that right?

5 A. The e-mail indicates that she will provide a

6 response to Portia. So, yes, I'm copied on it,

7 but the response -- based on this, the "you" is

8 to Portia.

9 Q. Right. So my question is: Do you have any

10 idea why Stacy Wooten added you to the e-mail

11 chain when they said she would investigate the

12 matter and write up the report?

13 A. Stacy Wooten is a regional chief and she

14 reports to me, but I would have to speculate --

15 and I wasn't on the e-mail exchange and she

16 added me on there for an FYI. I'm just

17 speculating. I don't know.

18 Q. If it was as an FYI, do you recall the

19 substance of this e-mail chain?

20 A. I do not.

21 Q. So you don't know what happened as to

22 Ms. Rogers, whether there was any followup by

23 the DMV?

24 A. I do not.


192




4 MR. FARR: Can she review this.

5 MR. EPPSTEINER: I was going to say

6 because the document is a bit lengthy, can we

7 go off the record so she can review the

8 document.

9 MR. FARR: Yes, let's do that.

10 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record

11 at 5:10 p.m.

12 (Brief Recess.)


14 5:17 p.m.


16 Q. Back on the record after the witness has

17 reviewed in full Exhibit 488.

18 Ms. Boyd, looking at Page 1 of the

19 e-mail, this was an e-mail that you received

20 from the executive assistant to the

21 commissioner, Commissioner Thomas, and that's

22 Elisabeth Wise, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you received that e-mail on October 24th --

25 sorry -- October 21st, 2014?




49 (Pages 193 to 196)

193

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it appears looking at the e-mail chain that

3 this issue was forwarded to the DMV from

4 members of Representative David Lewis's office,

5 is that correct, that's how the DMV became

6 aware of this?

7 A. I guess from Julia Adams if that's where she

8 works. It looks like it came from Julie Adams,

9 so I'm not sure who she is.

10 Q. Do you know who Jason Soper is?

11 A. The name sounds familiar, but I don't know who

12 it is.

13 Q. Do you know if Jason Soper works for DMV?

14 A. I'm not sure.

15 Q. And I'm going to go to Page 2 of the document.

16 The first full e-mail on Page 2, which is an

17 e-mail from you to Commissioner Thomas on

18 October 17, 2014; is that right?

19 A. What date did you say again? I'm sorry.

20 Q. October 17, 2014.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you're writing an e-mail to the

23 commissioner of the Division of Motor Vehicles

24 after he asked you to investigate this matter;

25 is that right?

194


2 Q. And in the e-mail I believe you're describing

3 the experience of someone at a DMV office. Is

4 that fair?

5 A. In the e-mail I'm describing the information

6 that was received to -- by one of my chiefs.

7 This is a recollection that my chief gave me.

8 Q. Okay. And I'm going to just read from the

9 middle -- a few lines down of the e-mail

10 beginning with, quote, "I thought."

11 Do you see that, Tom?

12 MR. FARR: I do. Who's the quote from?

13 MR. EPPSTEINER: Well, the e-mail is

14 written by the witness.

15 Q. And so the e-mail says, quote, "I thought that

16 voter ID cards were free."

17 So that was from your understanding of

18 your -- of your regional chief?

19 MR. FARR: The regional chief is

20 reporting what she was told by somebody,

21 Ms. Lee.

22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. This

23 statement here says she stated that -- meaning

24 she, the chief, stated that she then said,

25 "she" meaning the customer, I guess, said to

195

1 the examiner I thought it was free. So it's a2 recollection of what the customer told the3 chief.4 BY MR. EPPSTEINER:5 Q. Okay. And then continuing on, it says:6 "The examiner again asked for the7 fee and she paid. She also stated that8 the examiner then mentioned that all her9 son needed to vote was his birth

10 certificate and Social Security card."11 Are you familiar with whether a birth12 certificate or Social Security card are valid13 IDs for voting?14 A. I'm not.15 Q. You're not aware or they're not valid IDs for16 voting?17 A. I'm not aware.18 Q. If you're not aware, then why at the end of the19 e-mail you say, quote, "The examiner will20 receive additional training on this process to21 ensure he clearly understands the policy as it22 relates to this issue"? What is that referring23 to?24 A. If I recall correctly, it's the process for25 issuing a voter ID.

196

1 Q. So the ID should have been free?

2 A. If it was a voter ID, it should have been a

3 no-fee ID.

4 Q. And if you look at the first page of the

5 e-mail, it talks about a letter being prepared

6 for Miss Lee -- and I'm looking at the middle

7 of the page where it's an e-mail from you again

8 to Commissioner Thomas on October 17, 2014. Do

9 you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it says, quote:

12 "Ms. Beth, if you will put the

13 letter together for Ms. Lee and send it

14 to me, I'll review it and send it back."

15 Do you recall this situation regarding

16 a Miss Lee trying to get an ID for her son,

17 Daniel Trevor Lee.

18 A. Not specifically, no.

19 Q. Do you recall anything about this situation?

20 A. I'm just sitting here reading it. I'm just

21 going based on what's in the e-mail. I get

22 several e-mails, but generally I don't remember

23 it.

24 Q. Do you recall reviewing any letter addressed to

25 a Ms. Lee in Fairmont, North Carolina?




50 (Pages 197 to 200)

197

1 A. I don't. I review several letters, so, no, I

2 don't.

3 Q. If you look on the second page of the document,

4 again, it's an e-mail from you to Commissioner

5 Thomas on October 17, 2014, it references

6 initiating a refund of $10 for Ms. Lee.

7 Do you know if that actually happened,

8 if a refund was given to Ms. Lee for not being

9 issued a free voter ID for her son?

10 A. I don't remember if it was or not.

11 Q. Is that something that's common practice at the

12 DMV, to reimburse a customer for a credential

13 relating to voter ID?


15 Q. Have you heard of other circumstances where an

16 amount of money is refunded to a customer

17 related to a voter ID card issued by the DMV?

18 A. I'm aware of refunds being issued for other

19 types, but specifically not voter, just if a

20 refund is due and we can substantiate a refund,

21 a refund is provided.

22 Q. But any recollection as to refunds related to

23 the voter ID card?

24 A. A few. A few. I'm not really sure how many,

25 but I do recall a few.

198

1 Q. And what do you recall about those

2 circumstances?

3 A. Just having a request because if a refund is

4 due in driver's license, it would have to come

5 through the process, and if Portia's not there,

6 it would come through me. So if there was a

7 refund that had to be done, it would come

8 through Tracy to me and I would have approved

9 it generally based on the information provided

10 to me.

11 Q. And so based on the information provided in

12 those circumstances, did it occur where the DMV

13 refunded $10 for an ID card that should have

14 been free for voting?

15 A. I do recall some instances, and I can't

16 remember exactly how many, where a refund was

17 for a no-fee ID. Specifically which, I don't

18 know.

19 Q. So you're not sure whether it relates to the

20 free voter ID?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you recall any circumstances where a refund

23 was given recently?


25 Q. Okay. If you had to guess, when was the last

199

1 time that you recall a refund be given for an

2 ID card that should have been free?

3 A. I don't remember. If I had to guess, it would

4 be maybe this instance here, but I'm not really

5 sure.

6 Q. So in those other instances that you just

7 described generally, you don't recall if they

8 were before or after October -- around the time

9 of October 2014?


11 Q. I believe you testified previously about not

12 being aware of mailing issues related to ID

13 cards, something not coming in the mail or

14 something not being received by a customer, is

15 that right, that you didn't recall any issues

16 regarding that?

17 A. I don't remember -- I don't remember that. I

18 don't recall that.

19 Q. So you don't recall any specific circumstances

20 where a customer described some type of mailing

21 issues related to a DMV credential?

22 A. Let me clarify. I'm sure that it has occurred,

23 but specific information about mailing issues,

24 I don't know specifically what it would be

25 related to, but I get e-mails all the time

200

1 about whatever and it could have been in an

2 e-mail, so I'm not really sure specifically of

3 something that may or may not have occurred. I

4 can't recall specifically e-mails.

5 Q. Is it a regular complaint from a customer that

6 says that they didn't receive their DMV

7 credential in the mail?


9 "Regular," I don't know what that means.

10 THE WITNESS: Can you rephrase.


12 Q. Sure. Do you frequently receive e-mails from

13 customers complaining that they didn't receive

14 a DMV credential in the mail?

15 A. Those complaints go through our central

16 issuance process, so I may get some, but most

17 of those should be directed to another group

18 outside of my direction.

19 Q. So if you can recall that kind of issue, how

20 many times has that occurred where you recall

21 receiving a complaint from a customer regarding

22 the customer not receiving a DMV credential in

23 the mail?


25 Q. So you have no estimate at all regarding how




51 (Pages 201 to 204)

201

1 many times that's occurred?

2 A. I can't estimate because I just don't know. I

3 don't know.

4 Q. So you don't know if it was twice or a hundred

5 times?

6 A. I don't know how many times it's occurred. I

7 can't recall.



10 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. 489.

11 MR. EPPSTEINER: I apologize. 489.



14 MR. EPPSTEINER: Can we go off the

15 record so that the witness can read the

16 document.

17 MR. FARR: Sure.


19 5:29 p.m.

20 (Brief Recess.)


22 5:34 p.m.


24 Q. So we're back on the record after the witness

25 has reviewed Exhibit 489 in full. This is an

202

1 e-mail that you received from Serena Harris

2 from January 5, 2015; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall the issue described in the

5 e-mail?

6 A. I don't specifically recall, no.

7 Q. Is it fair to say that this issue describes a

8 customer complaint regarding a DMV credential

9 that wasn't received?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. If you look -- if you look at the actual

12 complaint, which is located on -- beginning on

13 Page 4, it looks as though it was a complaint

14 that was filed with the North Carolina

15 Department of Justice and it was forwarded to

16 the Division of Motor Vehicles.

17 Have you received similar complaints in

18 the past where it's a complaint to the

19 North Carolina Department of Justice and it's

20 forwarded from DOJ to DMV?

21 A. Where are you looking at?

22 Q. Sure. I'm looking at page -- Page 4, the

23 bottom of Page 4, and it looks as though it's

24 from an NC DOJ website and it's titled

25 Complaint 11929 Bourassa, and then it looks as

203

1 though the complaint was forwarded from

2 Michelle Keely at NC DOJ based upon the e-mail

3 address to Portia Manley on January 5, 2015,

4 which is located on the top part of Page 4.

5 A. Uh-huh.

6 Q. Does that appear to be what happened, there was

7 a complaint filed with the North Carolina

8 Department of Justice that was forwarded to the

9 North Carolina Division of Motor Vehicles?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that a typical complaint procedure where

12 there's a complaint filed with NC DOJ and it's

13 forwarded to NC DMV?

14 MR. FARR: Objection to the word

15 "typical," but you can answer that.

16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure how DOJ

17 corresponds with NC DOT with respect to

18 complaints.


20 Q. Have you seen a complaint like this before that

21 was forwarded from the North Carolina

22 Department of Justice?


24 Q. So if you look at the first page of the

25 document, in the e-mail that was sent from

204

1 Serena Harris to you, it says that there's

2 going to be a followup with Nicole Hunter

3 tomorrow. Who's Nicole Hunter?

4 A. Nicole Hunter works for Serena Harris.

5 Q. Do you have any idea how this situation with a

6 Mr. Bourassa was resolved, if it was?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. Seeing this kind of complaint, does it refresh

9 your recollection as to other complaints

10 regarding mailings from the North Carolina DMV

11 that weren't received as to a DMV credential?

12 A. As I stated before, I do -- I get e-mail

13 complaints, but I can't specifically recall

14 what they are relating to, so they could be

15 relating to anything.

16 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, do you know how many voter ID

17 cards have been issued by the North Carolina

18 DMV to date?

19 A. I do not.

20 Q. Do you have any estimate at all?

21 A. I do not.

22 Q. So you don't know if it's 50 or a thousand?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. And I believe you testified previously that you

25 thought the number of non-issuances for a




52 (Pages 205 to 208)

205

1 North Carolina voter ID card issued by the DMV

2 were approximately one to two in April 2015; is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And to be clear, do you have any recollection

6 of the number of non-issuances that have

7 been -- the number of non-issuances for a voter

8 ID card prior to April 2015, meaning from

9 January 2014 through the end of March 2015?

10 A. I can't recall the number. I don't know.

11 Q. No estimate at all?

12 A. I don't want to speculate, so, no, I don't

13 know.

14 Q. You can speculate. I just want to know if you

15 have any -- any idea of what that number is.

16 A. I really don't recall what the number is. I

17 don't know.

18 Q. Do you recall receiving any information

19 regarding May so far regarding non-issuances or

20 is that information not received until the end

21 of the month?

22 A. That information is received at the end of the

23 month.

24 Q. When you say end of the month, when does that

25 e-mail typically come in?

206

1 A. It goes to my assistant, so whatever the last

2 working day of the month that information is

3 recorded. We can't provide an accurate count

4 until the last hour or the last minute or the

5 last customer is served. So whatever the last

6 day of the month, the next working day would --

7 the report should be received.

8 Q. Have there been occurrences where a DMV

9 customer has tried to get a voter ID card but

10 wasn't able to do so?

11 A. I would say yes if I had the non-issuance.

12 Q. Have there been occurrences where a DMV

13 customer was given misinformation regarding the

14 voter ID card or regarding the voter ID

15 requirement?

16 A. Based on what I've read today, I would say yes.

17 Q. And based upon your independent knowledge of

18 your position at DMV, would you also agree that

19 that's the case?

20 A. What's the case?

21 Q. That misinformation has been given to DMV --

22 some DMV customers regarding either the voter

23 ID requirement or regarding the voter ID card

24 for voting?

25 MR. FARR: Objection to the extent that

207

1 calls for speculation.

2 THE WITNESS: Can you rephrase the

3 question for me.


5 Q. Yes. Based upon your -- your knowledge within

6 DMV in your position at DMV currently and in

7 the past, have there been occurrences where a

8 customer was given misinformation regarding the

9 voter ID card or regarding the voter ID

10 requirement for voting?

11 MR. FARR: Objection; speculation,

12 unless you know.

13 THE WITNESS: I don't specifically

14 recall.


16 Q. Do you receive any documents or correspondence

17 from the DMV regarding the number of homebound

18 IDs that have been issued?

19 A. If I get the report, most of those reports go

20 to Tracy Bucholtz.

21 Q. So by Tracy Bucholtz gets them, there's a

22 report that's generated regarding the number of

23 homebound IDs that are issued?

24 A. I believe so.

25 Q. Are those -- within that report, does it break

208

1 down the number of homebound IDs that have been

2 issued by ID type?

3 A. I have not seen the report.

4 Q. If you haven't seen a report, how do you know

5 one's created?

6 A. Because we discuss the homebound process, and

7 in that process she alluded to the fact that

8 she receives a report.

9 Q. And by "she," you mean Tracy Bucholtz?


11 Q. So do you have any knowledge of how many

12 homebound ID cards have been issued, for

13 example, in the last year?

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. Or the last ten years?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. Are you aware if any homebound voter ID card

18 has been issued by the DMV?

19 A. I'm not aware of it.

20 Q. Do you believe one way or the other whether a

21 homebound voter ID card has been issued based

22 upon your communications and meetings regarding

23 voter IDs issued by the DMV?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. I believe you testified about an examiner or a




53 (Pages 209 to 212)

209

1 senior examiner being in charge of following up

2 with a customer who is not issued a voter ID;

3 is that correct?

4 A. No, it's not.

5 Q. Please correct me, then, what was your

6 testimony regarding that?

7 A. The district supervisor is the one that would

8 follow up with a customer.

9 Q. Okay. So if there's a non-issuance of a voter

10 ID, it would be a district supervisor that

11 would follow up?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know if that's been done?

14 A. I specifically can't say that it has been done.

15 I don't know.

16 Q. And how was that --

17 MR. FARR: George, she has a

18 clarification.

19 THE WITNESS: Let me restate. The

20 training that they receive is exactly what they

21 were supposed to do if there was an issue. So

22 based on the training and the directive they

23 received, they should be following up.


25 Q. When you say training, was that particular

210

1 procedure put in writing?

2 A. It was a verbal.

3 Q. A verbal from you?

4 A. A verbal from me, yes.

5 Q. Did it occur at a district supervisors's

6 meeting?

7 A. I can't remember when it occurred.

8 Q. When you say you can't recall when, you mean

9 you don't know the timeframe about when that

10 was communicated?

11 A. It would have been around the March timeframe

12 when we started talking about these to tighten

13 up the process and to make sure we were making

14 every effort for customers to receive the

15 no-fee ID for voting, so it would have been

16 communicated during that time.

17 Q. I'll show you what's going to be marked as

18 Exhibit 490 to your deposition.




22 Q. If you could review -- I'm going to be asking

23 you about the first page of this e-mail, so if

24 you could review that first page and let me

25 know when you're finished.

211

1 MR. FARR: She's going to have to read

2 the whole thing, George, because it refers to

3 an attached e-mail.

4 MR. EPPSTEINER: Okay. If we could go

5 off the record.

6 MR. FARR: Let's do that.

7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record

8 5:47 p.m.

9 (Brief Recess.)


11 5:49 p.m.


13 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, this is an e-mail from Alma

14 Montemayor to yourself dated September 22,

15 2014; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And within that e-mail chain, it looks as

18 though there were some questions regarding the

19 homebound program that were asked by

20 representatives of the State Board of

21 Elections. Is that fair?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it looks as though there were some initial

24 questions and then there were some follow-up

25 Questions 1 through 3 that are listed on Page 1

212

1 of the document. Is that fair?2 A. Yes.3 Q. And as to Question 2, the question is, quote:4 "Is this applicable to a no-fee ID,"5 in other words -- or, "i.e., can a6 homebound customer get a no-fee DMV7 special ID for voting purposes with this8 procedure?"9 And I believe your answer to the

10 question is right after the question mark; is11 that correct?12 A. The response, yes.13 Q. And your response reads as follows:14 "The homebound ID and voter ID are15 different. Homebound applicants are16 not able to leave their homes, etc, due17 to extreme medical conditions that are18 documented by a physician. If they are19 unable to leave their home to get an ID20 in most cases, they are unable to get to21 the voting polls."22 Is that what your response to that23 question is?24 A. That's the response there, yes, but can I25 clarify?




54 (Pages 213 to 216)

213

1 Q. Sure.

2 A. This response here was generated and sent to me

3 by Tracy Bucholtz who is over the homebound --

4 or was over the homebound program, so that

5 information was provided by her to me which I

6 provided to Alma.

7 Q. But that was the answer that was provided?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So are you the point of contact for homebound

10 ID questions?

11 A. I am not. Tracy Bucholtz is.

12 Q. Has she always been the contact for homebound

13 ID questions?

14 A. I don't know about always, but when I returned

15 to DMV, I was told that she was and still is

16 the homebound contact person.

17 Q. Have you ever been the point of contact for

18 homebound ID inquiries?

19 A. Not the point of contact, no.






25 Q. So if you could look at both pages of the

214

1 documents, it's double-sided, and let me know

2 when you're finished.

3 Finished?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So if you look -- the top portion of the e-mail

6 is an e-mail from you to Timothy McLawhorn.

7 Who's Timothy -- that's correct, right, dated

8 October 23, 2014?


10 Q. Who's Timothy McLawhorn?

11 A. Law enforcement -- he's with license and theft.

12 Q. And are those the employees that facilitate the

13 homebound program?

14 A. They are the ones that go out with -- that go

15 out to visit homebound customers.

16 Q. If you look, below that it appears to be an

17 e-mail from Commissioner Thomas to Brian

18 LiVecchi where you're copied on that e-mail

19 dated October 3rd, 2014; is that right?


21 Q. And it says, quote:

22 "Thanks, Brian. My POC for

23 homebound issuances is Charlotte

24 Boyd-Malette," and then Commissioner

25 Thomas's signature.

215

1 Knowing Commissioner Thomas's e-mail

2 writing style, do you think POC means point of

3 contact?

4 A. I think it does.

5 Q. Do you know why Commissioner Thomas believes

6 you're the point of contact for homebound

7 issuances in October 2014?

8 MR. FARR: He said that she was his

9 point of contact.

10 MR. EPPSTEINER: I'll rephrase.


12 Q. Do you know why Commissioner Thomas is saying

13 that you're the point of contact for homebound

14 issuances at least as to the head of the DMV

15 agency?

16 A. In this e-mail, he says I'm his point of

17 contact. I'm his point of contact for a lot of

18 things. He filters several e-mails through me,

19 but the point of contact for the homebound

20 process is Tracy Bucholtz.

21 Q. Why isn't Tracy Bucholtz the one who is the

22 point of contact with Commissioner Thomas as to

23 homebound issuances?

24 A. I can't answer that question. I don't know.

25 Q. You haven't had any conversations with Tracy

216

1 Bucholtz or Commissioner Thomas about that?

2 A. About what?

3 Q. About why Tracy Bucholtz isn't the point of

4 contact for Commissioner Thomas as to homebound

5 issuances.

6 A. I have not.

7 Q. If you look at the second page of the document,

8 again I'm going to paraphrase here, but it

9 describes somebody who can be transported but

10 she can't sit up in her wheelchair.

11 MR. FARR: It describes a report that

12 the Avery County Board of Elections director

13 received from someone.

14 MR. EPPSTEINER: Right, it describes a

15 report from the deputy director of Avery County

16 Board of Elections.

17 MR. FARR: Who had a phone call from

18 someone.


20 Q. But to paraphrase, it's describing a

21 circumstance where somebody who can be

22 transported but can't sit up in their

23 wheelchair and whether or not they can have

24 their picture taken for a DMV credential.

25 Do you recall this situation?




55 (Pages 217 to 220)

217

1 A. I do not.

2 Q. Is -- do you know if that's DMV policy, if

3 somebody is in a wheelchair and they're

4 transported to a DMV office to obtain a DMV

5 credential but they can't sit up for their

6 photograph whether or not a photograph can be

7 taken of them and thus a DMV credential be

8 issued?


10 Q. Sure. So my question is: If a person is in a

11 wheelchair and they come to a DMV office to

12 obtain a DMV credential but they can't sit up

13 in their wheelchair to have their picture

14 taken, can they be issued a DMV photo ID card?

15 A. I don't -- I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know who would know that?

17 A. Maybe Barbara Webb. I'm not sure.

18 Q. Would Portia Manley maybe know?

19 A. She might, but I guess I just don't really

20 understand what you're asking. I don't

21 understand what you're asking me. I'm sorry.

22 Q. So you've been to -- out in the field and have

23 seen people have their picture taken when they

24 get a DMV ID card, right?

25 A. Yes.

218

1 Q. And when they have their picture taken, are

2 they sitting up?

3 A. Primarily, yes, they're sitting up.

4 Q. And so if a customer comes in a wheelchair but

5 they can't sit up to have their picture taken,

6 knowing the way a DMV office is set up, is it

7 still possible to take their picture for them

8 to obtain a DMV photo ID?

9 A. I don't know that it is because I don't know

10 what "sit up" mean. I mean, you can be sitting

11 and slumping, so I really don't know what

12 the -- what it would look like. It just

13 depends on if their image is able to be

14 captured. So I don't know what it would look

15 like because I'm not familiar with a case such

16 as this.

17 Q. So, say, for example, the person is lying down

18 in their wheelchair, so they're completely

19 lying on their back and they can't move their

20 body forward into a straight position, do you

21 think their picture could be taken at a DMV

22 office?

23 A. If I had to speculate, no, because if they're

24 lying back, I mean, you're not facing the

25 camera. The camera is upright.

219

1 Q. Do you know if there's any way to switch the

2 position of the camera?

3 A. I do not.

4 Q. Do you recall any issues with Voter

5 Registration Applications not being able to be

6 submitted at the DMV because a political

7 affiliation wasn't filled out?

8 A. Rephrase that, please.

9 Q. Are you aware of issues at the DMV in

10 submitting a Voter Registration Application --

11 completing a Voter Registration Application

12 because the political affiliation box wasn't

13 filled in?

14 A. I think I do recall something, but I can't

15 recall the specific incident.

16 MR. EPPSTEINER: Can we go off the

17 record for a moment.

18 MR. FARR: Sure.

19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're off the record

20 at 6:01 p.m.

21 (Brief Recess.)


23 6:05 p.m.



220


2 Q. The witness has reviewed Exhibit 492 in full.

3 Ms. Boyd-Malette, I recently asked you

4 whether or not you had any recollection of

5 whether or not a Voter Registration Application

6 could be submitted at the DMV when the

7 political affiliation box wasn't filled in. Do

8 you recall that question?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I believe your testimony was you recall

11 something about that but you weren't sure; is

12 that right?

13 A. I wasn't specific, yes.

14 Q. Does this document refresh your recollection as

15 to whether at a time at the DMV a Voter

16 Registration Application couldn't be submitted

17 if the political affiliation box wasn't filled

18 out?

19 A. I think so, yes.

20 Q. And so does that mean at least in August of

21 2014, if you couldn't fill out the political

22 affiliation box on the Voter Registration

23 Application, it couldn't be submitted through

24 the DMV system? Is that fair?





56 (Pages 221 to 224)

221

1 Q. Sure. Based upon refreshing your recollection

2 with this document that in August of 2014, if

3 you couldn't fill in the political affiliation

4 box on the Voter Registration Application, a

5 Voter Registration Application couldn't be

6 submitted through the DMV system?

7 A. That's what this e-mail indicates, yes.

8 Q. And is that your recollection as well?

9 A. It's not my recollection of the process because

10 I'm not -- I don't remember that ever

11 occurring, but based on this e-mail, what's

12 being stated in the e-mail.

13 Q. And that's what's being stated by a senior

14 examiner, M. Troy Cunningham, of the Henderson

15 driver's license office, if you look at the

16 bottom of Page 1 and the top of Page 2, right?


18 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that -- that

19 statement made by the senior examiner?

20 A. I'm not sure if that's correct or not, so I'm

21 not disputing, but I'm not sure if that's

22 correct or not.

23 Q. Do you have any reason to think that it isn't

24 correct?

25 A. I guess I really -- just based on my e-mail I'm

222

1 asking questions because I wasn't sure of the

2 process, and she explained what he was doing,

3 and if I understand the e-mail correctly, the

4 person could not provide a response.

5 So my understanding is that is if the

6 person is trying to make an application and

7 cannot provide a response, I don't know exactly

8 how they would handle -- or how they've been

9 trained to handle that situation.

10 Q. But you would agree that the e-mail from the

11 senior examiner says that the computer system

12 doesn't allow you to not put anything in for

13 party affiliation at least at that time?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. FARR: George, we have a little

16 problem so can we go off the record.

17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off record

18 6:08 p.m.

19 (Brief Recess.)




23 6:13 p.m.


25 Q. We're back on the record after the witness has

223

1 reviewed in full Exhibit 493.

2 Ms. Boyd-Malette, Exhibit 493 is an

3 e-mail that you received from Tracy Bucholtz on

4 August 24, 2014; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if you look, it describes a bulletin that's

7 to be broadcasted in SADLS, and then it says --

8 the subject is Changes in Policy and Procedure.

9 Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then if you keep going down, if you could

12 look at the voter registration part, I'm just

13 going to read the first few lines where

14 it -- where it says below Voter Registration.

15 It says, quote:

16 "When asking a customer to which

17 political party they would like to be

18 affiliated and they cannot decide how

19 they want to register, you can mark

20 this block as unaffiliated. This means

21 that he/she does not want -- does not

22 wish to be affiliated with a particular

23 party."

24 Based upon your review of this document

25 and that it describes changes in policies and

224

1 procedures, does that refresh your recollection

2 as to whether at one point if you couldn't fill

3 out the box for political affiliation on the

4 voter registration form, it couldn't be

5 submitted in the DMV system?

6 A. It doesn't because this says if they can't

7 decide. I mean, it's a little different. So,

8 no, it doesn't.

9 Q. And it doesn't refresh your recollection that

10 this -- that this e-mail is from September and

11 the previous exhibit where -- Exhibit 492 that

12 describes an issue with filling out the

13 political affiliation box is from only about

14 two weeks previously?

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. That doesn't change your recollection either?

17 A. It doesn't.

18 Q. Okay. Have you received inquiries regarding --

19 received inquiries from the State Board of

20 Elections regarding transport to DMV offices

21 for elderly or handicapped customers?

22 A. I do remember -- recall some discussion about

23 that.

24 Q. What do you recall about that?

25 A. I don't know, it's been such a while. It was




57 (Pages 225 to 228)

225

1 about the -- I don't remember. I can't

2 remember the specific details, but it was

3 something with respect to how customers that

4 didn't have transportation could get to DMV or

5 if DMV provided assistance with getting them to

6 a DMV office to be serviced, something of that

7 nature.

8 Q. Is DMV providing transportation to certain

9 customers to get to a DMV office currently?


11 Q. Are you aware of the State Board of Elections

12 providing transportation for customers to a DMV

13 office?

14 A. I think during one meeting it was about a

15 special event that they were -- we were having,

16 and I can't remember the specifics where I

17 believe it was Brian said that, if needed, he

18 would, but I can't remember the specifics.

19 Q. But you don't recall any regular program of the

20 State Board of Elections that's providing

21 transportation to DMV customers to driver's

22 license offices?

23 A. I don't. I don't recall. That's not to say it

24 hasn't happened, but I don't recall it.

25 Q. Are you familiar with the information that's

226

1 displayed on the DMV website regarding the

2 voter ID card that's issued by the DMV?

3 A. Not specifically.






9 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, I would like you to generally

10 review the document and let me know when you're

11 finished. If we could go off the record for a

12 minute.

13 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at

14 6:19 p.m.

15 (Brief Recess.)


17 6:23 p.m.


19 Q. Back on the record after the witness has

20 reviewed Exhibit 494 in full.

21 Ms. Boyd-Malette, does this appear to

22 be a printout of information from the

23 North Carolina Department of Transportation

24 website?

25 A. Based on the address here, it looks like it is.

227

1 Q. And based upon the information within the

2 document, if I were to represent to you that

3 this was a printout of information from the

4 North Carolina Department of Transportation

5 website from yesterday regarding ID cards,

6 would you have any reason to disagree with

7 that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you see the section on the second page of

10 the document entitled Requirements and

11 Documents to Obtain a No-Fee Voter ID Card?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it appears that within that section or

14 subsections regarding Proof of Age and

15 Identity, Valid Social Security Number, Proof

16 of Citizenship and Residency, do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The information contained within that

19 Requirements and Documents to Obtain a No-Fee

20 Voter ID Card section, do you have any reason

21 to disagree with any of the language within

22 that section that's on the DOT website?

23 A. After a general read, I would say no.

24 Q. Well, if you need to read it again, you can.

25 I'm just curious if you disagree as to anything

228

1 within that document.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was that "no"?

4 A. "No."

5 Q. Have you received complaints from customers who

6 state that they registered to vote at a DMV

7 office when obtaining a DMV credential but that

8 registration was never received by the Board of

9 Elections?

10 A. Have I received, I may have. I can't recall

11 specifically what -- if I have because most of

12 those go through Tracy Bucholtz.

13 Q. Based upon your recollection of the types of

14 complaints that customers provide, is that a

15 complaint received by the DMV?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. By your recollection of the type of complaints

18 received by the DMV, is that something -- is

19 that a complaint that you've received or

20 reviewed more than once, for example?

21 A. If I had to speculate, maybe more than once or

22 twice.

23 Q. And you said who is the point of contact as to

24 customer complaints regarding voter

25 registration issues while at the DMV?




58 (Pages 229 to 232)

229

1 A. Primarily those are going -- being now filtered

2 through Tracy Bucholtz for tracking because

3 they were being received from various outlets.

4 Now Tracy is responsible for those.

5 Q. When you say "now Tracy," who was the point of

6 contact before regarding those types of

7 complaints?

8 A. Anyone could receive them, Beth, myself,

9 Portia. I mean, they would go anywhere.

10 Let me change that. Beth -- most of

11 the times that we get complaints, they come

12 from the ground up, maybe through the senior

13 examiner or they contact us, so we get them in

14 various different ways or those complaints are

15 received in various different ways by various

16 people.

17 Q. When did Tracy Bucholtz become the point of

18 contact for voter registration issues while at

19 the DMV?

20 A. I can't recall when that was done because it

21 was done by the deputy commissioner, so I can't

22 specifically tell you when that was done.

23 Q. Well, I don't need to know specifically. I'm

24 just curious whether you recall it was within

25 the last year or within the year 2014, if you

230

1 have any idea when that decision was made for

2 Tracy Bucholtz to be the point of contact for

3 voter registration issues.

4 A. If I had to guess, it was a couple months ago

5 when I was made aware of it.

6 MR. FARR: I guess Tracy will know.

7 MR. EPPSTEINER: I'm sure she will.






13 MR. EPPSTEINER: If we could go off the

14 record so the witness could review the

15 document.

16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off record at 6:28.

17 (Brief Recess.)


19 6:31 p.m.




23 To paraphrase this document,

24 Ms. Boyd-Malette, looking at the first page,

25 this is an e-mail that you sent to Timothy

231

1 McLawhorn on October 23rd, 2014; is that

2 correct?


4 Q. And it appears -- earlier in the e-mail chain

5 it appears to be a report from the State Board

6 of Elections regarding a person being told that

7 he could vote in all but federal election -- he

8 could vote for all but federal election

9 candidates as a legal resident alien with a

10 green card.

11 Is that a fair description of the

12 document?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall this particular issue at the DMV?

15 A. I do not.

16 Q. If you look further down on Page 1, it appears

17 that when the document was sent to DMV, it was

18 sent from Veronica Degraffenreid at the State

19 Board of Elections to Barbara Webb.

20 Does that appear to be the case?

21 A. Right here, are you talking about in the center

22 of Page 1?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the e-mail from Veronica Degraffenreid to

232

1 Barbara Webb says, Hi Barb, We really need to

2 have a conversation."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall talking to Barbara Webb about any

5 conversations she had with State Board of

6 Elections employees regarding misinformation

7 that's given regarding voting for legal

8 resident aliens?

9 A. I do remember talking, but not specifically

10 what, just general conversation.

11 Q. When you say you recall general conversation,

12 what does that mean?

13 A. Just maybe her saying there was some

14 miscommunication or misinformation put out in

15 the driver's license office.

16 Q. Then looking at the first substantive e-mail

17 which is from Barbara Webb to Veronica

18 Degraffenreid in which you're copied dated

19 October 12, 2014 -- do you see that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. It says quoting -- beginning from Line 2:

22 "I've copied Charlotte Boyd-Malette,

23 Assistant Director of Driver Services.

24 She will handle voter registration

25 concerns with driver license offices."




59 (Pages 233 to 236)

233

1 Were you ever the point of contact for

2 voter registration issues at driver's license

3 offices?

4 A. Not that I'm aware of. When this e-mail or any

5 e-mail is sent for Barb, she normally copies me

6 because I am the assistant director to make me

7 aware of issues, but not as far as being

8 labeled the point of contact for voter

9 registration, I'm not.

10 Q. Do you know what she means by "she" -- which I

11 believe means you -- "will handle voter

12 registration concerns with driver license

13 offices," do you know what that means?

14 A. I don't.






20 Q. Can you take a moment to review the document

21 and let me know when you're finished.

22 A. Okay. I'm ready.

23 Q. So to paraphrase the document, the top part of

24 the document is an e-mail from you to Timothy

25 McLawhorn dated October 23, 2014; is that

234

1 right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. And earlier in the e-mail it appears to be a

4 report from Elizabeth Gignac to Terri Robertson

5 which was forwarded to the DMV which describes

6 a voter registration issue while at the DMV.

7 Is that fair?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the customer says that they attempted to

10 register but they weren't registered and they

11 can't vote, and when they checked to see what

12 happened, the DMV said that they specifically

13 declined to register even though they said that

14 this wasn't true. Is that fair?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the complaint from Ms. Gignac, she says that

17 she's filing a complaint with DMV supervisor

18 Ken Holden.

19 Do you recall any communications

20 regarding this voter registration issue?

21 A. I don't.

22 Q. And the reason I ask you about that is because

23 in the previous e-mail where Ms. Webb says

24 you'll handle voter registration concerns, that

25 previous exhibit was dated October 23, 2014,

235

1 and this document is also dated October 23,

2 2014.

3 So you don't have any recollection of

4 either of those documents?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. And so you don't recall if there was any

7 followup regarding Ms. Gignac's issue?

8 A. I do not.

9 I would like to say something. When

10 you ask me if I recall, when I say I don't

11 recall, it doesn't mean there wasn't any

12 followup. I just was not included or I don't

13 remember what the followup was.

14 Q. So you don't know one way or the other what

15 happened regarding this complaint?


17 Q. Do you recall any communications regarding

18 issues posting mobile unit schedules on the DOT

19 website?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. What do you recall regarding that?

22 A. There have been questions with respect to where

23 to go to see the mobile unit, to figure out

24 where the mobile unit was online and things of

25 that nature, but just questions in general

236

1 about where -- the hours of operation and where

2 mobile units would be and how to find the

3 location of the mobile unit.

4 Q. Do you recall any issues on the DOT website

5 with posting the mobile unit schedule that

6 wasn't current for that particular month,

7 meaning it was posting previous schedules that

8 were no longer current?

9 A. I remember something but not the specifics

10 because the mobile unit schedule is not

11 maintained by me, it's maintained by Teresa

12 Crudup and Angie Sawyer, but I do remember some

13 conversation, but the specifics of the

14 conversation or what the issue was, I don't

15 remember.

16 Q. So you don't know if incorrect mobile unit

17 schedules have been posted or not?

18 A. I don't know, or I can't recall if they were or

19 not.






25 Q. If you could review the document and let me




60 (Pages 237 to 240)

237

1 know when you're finished.2 A. I'm ready.3 Q. After reviewing Exhibit 497, does that refresh4 your recollection as to whether the mobile unit5 schedule was posted on the DOT website with6 dates that weren't current?7 A. Based on this information -- I mean, I'm just8 reading the information. I don't remember it9 specifically, but I'm reading it in this

10 e-mail.11 Q. So looking at the body of this particular12 e-mail, it's an e-mail from Patricia Polito.13 Is that your assistant?14 A. It is.15 Q. And you're copied on that e-mail?16 A. Yes.17 Q. And I'm going to read from the e-mail.18 "Good afternoon, Brian. If it's19 not already in the works, please ensure20 that the 2015 Mobile Unit Schedule goes21 onto the DOT website as soon as possible.22 I see the monthly dates for 2014 still23 on the website. Customers on Contact Us24 are already questioning 2015 mobile unit25 dates.

238

1 "I remember last year we went

2 through all of January 2014 with the 2013

3 schedule still showing causing many

4 customers to visit the mobiles on the

5 wrong days! As you can imagine, this

6 caused a large increase in the amount of

7 complaints we started the year off with.

8 Attached is the latest 2015 mobile unit

9 schedule."

10 Your assistant describes all of

11 January 2014 being posted on DOT website with

12 the 2013 schedule. Do you have any reason to

13 disagree with your assistant?

14 A. I'm not aware of this. I didn't get to DMV

15 until June or July of 2014 so, I mean, I

16 wouldn't disagree with it, but I don't know

17 what the specifics are because I wasn't there.

18 Q. But you were copied on the e-mail, right?


20 Q. And there was no response to this e-mail that

21 nothing was incorrect that Ms. Polito stated,

22 right?

23 A. No because I was cc'd on it, the interaction

24 and conversation was between herself, Jerry and

25 Brian.

239

1 Q. Do you think she would say this if it wasn't

2 the case?

3 A. No.


5 as Exhibit 498 for this deposition. And can we

6 go off the record while the witness reviews the

7 document.

8 MR. FARR: Sure.

9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at

10 6:43 p.m.

11 (Brief Recess.)


13 6:48 p.m.






19 Looking at the top of the document,

20 Ms. Boyd-Malette, is this an e-mail that you

21 were copied on from Helen Wong dated

22 January 22, 2015?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And to paraphrase the document, it discusses

25 some testing of some DMV web applications. Is

240

1 that fair?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And it was assigning testers for those

4 applications. Is that fair?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want you to look at Page 4, and in the middle

7 of Page 4, I'm looking at an e-mail from

8 Michael T. Farmer, and the body of the e-mail

9 says:

10 "It will require a payment to be

11 made via the WEB for: 7) Online Vehicle

12 Registration; 8) Online Duplicate

13 Vehicle Registration; 9) Online Special

14 Plates Inquiry/Reservation."

15 And in response to that e-mail is an

16 e-mail from Reba Green that says in bold:

17 "Wait a minute. Are you telling

18 me that we have to renew someone's plate

19 and pay property taxes and order a

20 special plate in production with our own

21 credit card?"

22 Do you know if that was the case for

23 this testing, whether DMV employees had to use

24 their own credit card for these transactions?

25 A. I have no idea.




61 (Pages 241 to 244)

241

1 Q. Do you know if Tracy Bucholtz would know?

2 A. I do not.

3 Q. And what about Portia Manley?

4 A. I do not.

5 Q. Any idea who would know?

6 A. Reba Green.

7 Q. And who's Reba Green?

8 A. Reba Green is the manager over the field

9 service help desk.

10 Q. Do you recall this e-mail correspondence?

11 A. I do not.

12 Q. Have there been conversations with DMV

13 employees about recent legislation regarding

14 funding for the North Carolina Department of

15 Transportation?


17 Q. Sure. Has there been any discussions in the

18 last couple months about a bill that was passed

19 in the legislature regarding the funding of the

20 North Carolina Department of Transportation?

21 A. I don't recall. I'm not sure.

22 Q. Do you know anything about budget cuts to the

23 North Carolina Department of Transportation?

24 A. I'm aware of budget cuts, but what specific

25 they are, that would be Hope Mozingo who would

242

1 provide a response to that.

2 Q. So what do you know about budget cuts for the

3 Department of Transportation?

4 A. Just in general conversation when we're

5 attending legislative sessions, which are held

6 Monday morning, the conversation that are being

7 held by the assistant commissioner, Hope

8 Mozingo and information that she's provided.

9 Q. Are you aware that the most recent budget for

10 the North Carolina Department of Transportation

11 has been cut?

12 A. I've heard that it has, but I'm not sure what

13 the specifics are.

14 Q. So you don't know about how much, for example?

15 A. If I was told that, I don't remember it.

16 Q. Had there been any discussions about, pursuant

17 to these budget cuts, the termination of

18 positions at the Department of Transportation?

19 A. That's not a discussion I can remember having.

20 That would be a discussion in my opinion that

21 would be had with the director, Ms. Manley and

22 Hope Mozingo.

23 Q. When you say Ms. Manley, Portia Manley?


25 Q. Ms. Boyd-Malette, I don't have any further

243

1 questions for you. Thank you very much for

2 your patience today.

3 A. Thank you.

4 MR. FARR: No questions.

5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the

6 deposition. The time is 6:53 p.m.

7 [SIGNATURE RESERVED]

8 [DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 6:53 P.M.]

9

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244

1 A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T O F D E P O N E N T

2

3 I, CHARLOTTE BOYD-MALETTE, declare under the

4 penalties of perjury under the State of North

5 Carolina that I have read the foregoing 243 pages,

6 which contain a correct transcription of answers made

7 by me to the questions therein recorded, with the

8 exception(s) and/or addition(s) reflected on the

9 correction sheet attached hereto, if any.

10 Signed this the day of , 2015.

11

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62 (Pages 245 to 246)

245

1 E R R A T A S H E E T

2 Case Name: NAACP vs. McCrory and Related Cases

3 Witness Name: CHARLOTTE BOYD-MALETTE

4 Deposition Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2015

5

6 Page/Line Reads Should Read

7 ____/____|_______________________|_________________________

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23

24

25 Signature Date

246



2 COUNTY OF WAKE )

3

4 I, DENISE MYERS BYRD, Court Reporter and Notary

5 Public, the officer before whom the foregoing proceeding was

6 conducted, do hereby certify that the witness whose testimony

7 appears in the foregoing proceeding were duly sworn by me; that

8 the testimony of said witness was taken by me to the best of my

9 ability and thereafter transcribed under my supervision; and

10 that the foregoing pages, inclusive, constitute a true and

11 accurate transcription of the testimony of the witness(es).

12 Before completion of the deposition, review of the

13 transcript [X] was [ ] was not requested. If requested, any

14 changes made by the deponent (and provided to the reporter)

15 during the period allowed are appended hereto.

16 I further certify that I am neither counsel for,

17 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this action,

18 and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any

19 attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereof, nor

20 financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of said

21 action.

22 This the 23rd day of May 2015.

23

24

Denise Myers Byrd

25 CSR 8340, RPR, CLR 102409-02


CARNELL BROWN April 24, 2015


1 (Pages 1 to 4)

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE MIDDLE DISTRICT OF NORTH CAROLINA__________________________________ )NORTH CAROLINA STATE )CONFERENCE OF THE NAACP, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-658 )PATRICK LLOYD McCRORY, in his )official capacity as the Governor )of North Carolina, et al., ) ) Defendants. )__________________________________) )LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS OF )NORTH CAROLINA, et al., ) ) Plaintiffs, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-660 )THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )et al., ) ) Defendants. )__________________________________) )UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, ) ) Plaintiff, ) ) Civil Action v. ) No. 1:13-CV-861 )THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA, )et al., ) ) Defendant. )__________________________________)

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF CARNELL BROWN

Friday Best WesternApril 24, 2015 102 Market Centre Drive10:57 A.M. Tarboro, North Carolina

2

1 A P P E A R A N C E S2

3 For the PlaintiffUnited States of America:

4

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE5 Civil Rights Division, Voting Rights

BY: AVNER SHAPIRO, ESQ.6 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 205307 (202) 305-0132

[email protected]

9

For the Defendant The State of10 North Carolina, et al.:11 OGLETREE DEAKINS

BY: THOMAS FARR, ESQ.12 4208 Six Forks Road

Suite 110013 Raleigh, North Carolina 27609


16

17

18 Also Present:19 Brad Smith - Videographer20

21

22 --o0o--23

24

25

3

1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION2 WITNESS: CARNELL BROWN3 EXAMINATION PAGE4 By Mr. Shapiro............................55 By Mr. Farr..............................296 By Mr. Shapiro...........................507 By Mr. Farr..............................518

9

10 INDEX OF EXHIBITS11 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE12 CB-1 Copy of photograph of

deponent's residence................5013

CB-2 Copy of front of ID card............2414

CB-3 Copy of back of ID card.............2515

16 (Exhibits were marked previous to deposition.)17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

4


2 * * * * *

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: On record at 10:57 a.m.

4 Today's date is April the 24th, 2015, and this is

5 the videotaped deposition of Mr. Carnell Brown

6 taken in the matter of North Carolina State

7 Conference of the NAACP, et al. versus Patrick

8 Lloyd McCrory in his official capacity as the

9 governor of North Carolina, et al.; League of

10 Women Voters of North Carolina, et al. versus the

11 State of North Carolina, et al; and United States

12 of America versus the State of North Carolina, et

13 al; Case Nos. 1:13-CV-658, -660 and -861.

14 Would counsel please now introduce

15 themselves, and then our court reporter will

16 swear in the witness.

17 MR. SHAPIRO: I am Avner Shapiro

18 representing the United States, one of the

19 plaintiffs in this matter.

20 MR. FARR: Hello, Mr. Brown. I'm Tom Farr.

21 I'm with the Raleigh, North Carolina law firm of

22 Ogletree Deakins, and I'm here representing the

23 Defendants in this case.

24 CARNELL BROWN,

25 being duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth




2 (Pages 5 to 8)

5

1 and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified

2 as follows:

3 THE DEPONENT: Yes.

4 EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown, could

7 you please state your full name for the record.

8 A. Carnell Brown.

9 Q. And, Mr. Brown, I -- I want to ask you

10 first a few questions about your -- your background.

11 A. All right.

12 Q. Mr. Brown, how old are you?

13 A. I'm sixty -- sixty-seven.

14 Q. Sixty --

15 A. Sixty-seven.

16 Q. Sixty-seven?

17 A. Um-hmm.

18 Q. Okay. And, um, where do you live?

19 A. Uh, 195 Sunpointe Lane, Tarboro, North

20 Carolina.

21 Q. And is that, uh, Tarboro in Edgecombe

22 County, Northeast North Carolina?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And for how long have you lived in that

25 area?

6

1 A. About 20, 30, some years like that.

2 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry?

3 THE DEPONENT: About 20- or 30-something

4 years.

5 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

6 Q. Have you --

7 MR. FARR: Mr. -- Mr. Brown.

8 THE DEPONENT: Um-hmm.

9 MR. FARR: Um, because we have a court

10 reporter here --


12 MR. FARR: -- if we were just having a

13 normal conversation, your -- uh, the tone of your

14 voice would be fine. But because the court

15 reporter is here, could you speak up a little

16 bit?

17 THE DEPONENT: Yeah.

18 MR. FARR: Because she has to take down

19 your testimony.


21 MR. FARR: Thank you very much.

22 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

23 Q. So how -- how long have you lived in the

24 Tarboro area?

25 A. It's been -- well, I was here in one place

7

1 over there. I lived there for, uh, 19 years. Then I

2 moved to Rocky Mount. Then I moved back out there.

3 Q. Rocky Mount --

4 A. Right up there now.

5 Q. -- also in Edgecombe?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Okay. So have you lived either in

8 Edgecombe or -- or -- have you lived in Edgecombe

9 County all your life?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Okay. And did -- did you go to school in

12 Edgecombe County?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay. And what was the race of, uh,

15 students who went to school with you?

16 A. All black.

17 Q. All black?

18 A. Um-hmm.

19 Q. And was it -- ess -- essentially, the white

20 students went to another school?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. The white students in your community went

23 to another school because your school was segregated;

24 is that right?

25 A. Yes, sir.

8

1 Q. Okay. And, uh, I understand that you left

2 school in sixth grade because your father needed you

3 to help him with his work; is that right?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And, Mr. Brown, what work was that?

6 A. Working on the farm. Sharecropping.

7 Q. And when you say sharecropping, what type

8 of sharecropping work did you have to do?

9 A. Well, tobacco, corn, cotton, peanuts.

10 Q. So you were picking cotton and picking

11 tobacco?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Okay. And -- and you mentioned your father

14 didn't own that land; he was a sharecropper?

15 A. No, sir, he didn't own it.

16 Q. Okay. Did your father know how to read?

17 A. No, sir.

18 Q. And, Mr. Brown, do you know how to read?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. Mr. Brown, I understand in addition to

21 working with your father on the land and helping him,

22 that throughout your life you've had many physical

23 jobs and for many years. So you were also working in

24 transporta -- transporting livestock -- cows and

25 pigs; is that right?




3 (Pages 9 to 12)

9

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. For how long were you doing that?

3 A. Umm, about 30 -- about 39, 40 years. Just

4 about 40 years anyway.

5 Q. And -- and during those 38, 39, 40 years,

6 how much were you being paid?

7 A. Um, I was paid minimum wage, but, you know,

8 every year, you get a little small raise when you're

9 at minimum wage you work for the year.

10 Q. So how much did you start off with when you

11 started working?

12 A. Uh, $3 an hour.

13 Q. Okay. $3 an hour. And when you left, how

14 much were you being paid?

15 A. Six fifty.

16 Q. Okay. And now I understand you no longer

17 work because you suffer from a number of serious

18 medical conditions including emphysema; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. You've been married and are now separated

22 from your wife; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Do you have any children?

25 A. I have four children.

10

1 Q. Four children?

2 A. Yes, sir.

3 Q. All grown?

4 A. No. I have one girl and three boys.

5 Q. One girl, three boys. Are there all -- are

6 they all grown up now?

7 A. Yes, sir.

8 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, what are your

9 current sources of income?

10 A. What I brought my, uh, social security.

11 That's all.

12 Q. Anything besides social security?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. And after you pay for the basics,

15 Mr. Brown, like food and your electric bill, how much

16 is left at the end of the month?

17 A. Nothing. I don't have nothing left at the

18 end of the month really. I mean, after I pay my bill

19 and buy the groceries, there's nothing. And I have

20 -- I have about three cent in my pocket now. That's

21 all I have from that to, you know, next Friday I get

22 paid again. I get my check again.

23 Q. So right now, you have three cents in your

24 pocket?

25 A. Yes, sir.

11

1 Q. Mr. Brown, do you own a car?

2 A. No, sir.

3 Q. Do you have a landline in your home?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Have you ever used the Internet?

6 A. Nah. No, sir.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Brown, I'd like to talk to you a

8 little bit about the issue of voting, if I may.

9 A. Um-hmm.

10 Q. Mr. Brown, do you vote?

11 A. Yes, I vote. Um-hmm.

12 Q. And do you recall ever voting in one of the

13 presidential elections?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Do you remember what candidates you -- what

16 -- what candidates were running?

17 A. Clinton.

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. And Obama.

20 Q. Okay. Do you ever remember voting in a

21 local election?

22 A. Yeah, for the sheriff -- sheriff office and

23 that.

24 Q. And when you go to vote, how do you do it;

25 do you go vote in person at the polling site or do

12

1 you vote by mail? What do you do?

2 A. I go up there in person. I go to the

3 voting place in person.

4 Q. Okay. Have you ever voted by mail?

5 A. No, sir.

6 Q. Do you know the rules and requirements for

7 voting by mail?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. And when you vote in person at the polling

10 site, do you usually go early voting or do you go on

11 Election Day?

12 A. I try to go early voting.

13 Q. Okay. Why is that?

14 A. I don't like being in that crowd. And, you

15 know, someone have to go with me. Just feels like a

16 lot to show more -- they ask me the questions and I

17 tell them what I want and write it down there.

18 Q. Okay. So it's easier for you to do it

19 during early voting because you can get more help?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Now, do you consider voting important, an

22 important right?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Why is that, Mr. Brown?

25 A. Well, I figure because you want to be


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4 (Pages 13 to 16)

13

1 heard, you know, to get your voice out there for the

2 people. I mean, like everybody should vote that will

3 have a privilege to. It's kind of hard at times for

4 you to get to, you know, places that do the voting

5 and stuff.

6 Q. And do you recall a time in this state when

7 African-Americans were not able to vote?

8 A. Yes, sir. I -- well, I don't know exactly

9 how --- I heard about that, them talking about it. I

10 didn't -- I ain't been voting that long neither

11 myself.

12 Q. Um-hmm. And what do you -- how do you feel

13 about that, the fact that African-Americans couldn't

14 vote or had difficulty voting and -- and how do you

15 feel about your right to vote now?

16 A. I feel pretty good about the right to vote

17 now.

18 Q. Mr. Brown, I want to speak to you about the

19 2014 election, this last election, if I may.

20 A. Um-hmm.

21 Q. Now, in 2014, did you attempt -- did you

22 try to vote?

23 A. Uh, yes, sir.

24 Q. And what did you do when you tried to vote?

25 A. Well, I went up there and the lady said

14

1 that, uh --

2 Q. Where did you --

3 A. -- I was living --

4 Q. Strike that. Let me interrupt. Where did

5 you go?

6 A. Uh, in Nash County in Rocky Mount on the

7 Nash side.

8 Q. Okay. How did you get there?

9 A. Uh, my brother took me.

10 Q. Did you have to arrange with him to take

11 you there?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Were you asking him to do you a favor?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Okay. And did he -- did he drive you

16 there?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And did he wait for you while you were

19 there?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. So how far away is that from your home?

22 A. About nine miles.

23 Q. Okay. And what happened when you got

24 there?

25 A. Well, they said I was in the, uh, wrong --

15

1 I was in the wrong county because I live in Edgecombe

2 County, but I went on Nash side to vote. I can't --

3 I can't live in one county and vote in another one --

4 vote in the other county.

5 Q. And what else did they tell you about

6 whether you'd be able to vote in the election?

7 A. Well, she said I can't sign -- register to

8 vote the same day and vote the same day. Like you

9 had to register first before you go up there to vote.

10 You can't register the same day and then vote.

11 Q. Okay. And did you go to this polling site

12 during the early voting period or during the --

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. -- Election Day?

15 A. That was the early voting period.

16 Q. Okay. So if I understand it, you went to

17 vote early at the polling site in Nash County, and

18 the poll worker told you that you had missed your

19 chance to vote because you were registered in the

20 wrong county?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Did you hear that the rule -- strike that.

23 Did you hear that the rule that the poll

24 worker told you about that you -- strike that.

25 Were you previously under the impression

16

1 that you could register and vote on the same day?

2 MR. FARR: Objection. Leading.

3 MR. SHAPIRO: Fair enough.

4 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

5 Q. Let me rephrase that.

6 What -- what was your perception at the

7 time about whether you could register and vote on the

8 same day?

9 A. Well, I didn't -- I -- well, what it -- I

10 went up there to Station Square Mall, which I always

11 thought was on the Edgecombe side, but it on the Nash

12 side.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. And I don't know how it was. There's a

15 part of the building probably sitting on Edgecombe

16 and the other part on Nash side. But that's where we

17 went to register at, but when we went back to vote,

18 the lady said I was living in Edgecombe, but I

19 couldn't vote because I was on the Nash side.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. Because they're in Nash County.

22 Q. What had you heard about -- Mr. -- Mr.

23 Brown, what have -- what had you heard about whether

24 you could register and vote in the past? Had you

25 ever heard of anyone doing that in the past?


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5 (Pages 17 to 20)

17

1 A. Yes, sir. I mean, I always would register,

2 and then when the early voting election come around,

3 I would go up there and the crowd -- in the early

4 voting. I just -- oh, you know, when you get a ride,

5 it hard to get away, but I don't drive, you know, to

6 get up there to the polls and stuff. But if you

7 catch somebody while they're going up there, easier.

8 Q. And to what extent were you surprised to

9 learn that you couldn't register and vote that day?

10 Were you surprised?

11 A. Yes, because I thought, you know, I could,

12 uh, still vote the same way like I been doing.

13 Q. All right. Mr. Brown, I want to speak to

14 you now about the 2016 election. If you vote in

15 2016, where are you planning on going to vote?

16 A. Over in Edgecombe. Uh, they told me --

17 they sent me a letter saying I had to go to the fire

18 station over on Bullock School Road in Edgecombe

19 County. That's about three mile away from the house.

20 Q. And how will you get there?

21 A. I have to get my brother to take me if he

22 have time.

23 Q. And, Mr. Brown, if you get there and you're

24 told that you have to go to Rocky Mountain (sic) in

25 order to -- for you to -- for your vote to count, how

18

1 easy would that be for you to do?

2 A. It all depend on what else -- you know, if

3 I get someone to take me, what else they had to do,

4 whether they could take me there or not from there.

5 It would depend on if I could get a ride up to there.

6 Q. And how far is Rocky Mountain from your

7 home?

8 A. Nine mile.

9 Q. And how far is Rocky Mountain from the

10 polling site that you're going to go to, the fire

11 station?

12 A. It would be about -- about 11 mile.

13 Q. Okay. So you're going to need a lift for

14 that?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, I'd like to talk to

17 you about the issue of your ID. Do you have a

18 driver's license, Mr. Brown?

19 A. No, sir.

20 Q. And why is that?

21 A. A DWI took -- took my license.

22 Q. You had a D -- DWI, and your license --

23 A. Was suspended, yes, sir.

24 Q. Suspended. And how long ago was that?

25 A. Mmm, been about 15 years or more. It might

19

1 be 20.

2 Q. Mr. Brown, what happened to your driver's

3 license since it was suspended 15 years ago? Why

4 haven't you been able to -- to get it back?

5 A. Well, I got caught a couple times driving

6 without it, and then, you know, they just suspend

7 them another year longer.

8 Q. So you've been caught driving with a

9 suspended license?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And were you doing that while you were

12 still working?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Transporting pigs and cows?

15 A. Well, I wasn't driving then. I was just

16 working in the barn. But I still had to go, you

17 know, to try to get a ride to work. And I had to

18 drive and get to work some way because I couldn't

19 walk that far.

20 Q. Did you feel you had to do that in order

21 to -- to make a living?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. Mr. Brown, have you had to pay fines

24 for the suspended license over the years?

25 A. Yes, sir.

20

1 Q. And what other costs have you had related

2 to your driver's license?

3 A. Well, I had to hire a lawyer. I had to go

4 to the, uh -- this assessment -- assessment class.

5 Well, that was back when I would bring -- I had to go

6 to this assessment class for, uh, alcohol.

7 Q. Um-hmm.

8 A. And, uh --

9 Q. How long is this -- how long has it been

10 since you've been drinking any alcohol?

11 A. Nine year.

12 Q. Okay. So you don't drink at all now?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. And, uh, so you've -- you've gotten a

15 lawyer for what -- for what purpose?

16 A. To try to get my license back.

17 Q. Have you got the license back yet in these

18 15 years?

19 A. No, sir. They say I wouldn't be able for

20 -- they say one time I wouldn't be able for 2016 --

21 2016. But, then again, they should -- they sent me a

22 letter saying they were permanently revoked. But I

23 don't know. My lawyer said he think -- he said he'll

24 have to check into it.

25 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Brown, after your license




6 (Pages 21 to 24)

21

1 was suspended about 15 years ago, was there a period

2 of time where you had no I -- form of photo

3 identification?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And how long was that period?

6 A. About four or five years. I had to have --

7 Q. Four or five years?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Without any type of photo ID?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Okay. So at some point, you did get a

12 photo ID?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. What type of photo ID did you get after

15 four or five years of not having one?

16 A. It was -- that's the one with your picture

17 and where you live at and what state you -- what

18 county you live in and all that.

19 Q. Was that a state ID that you got from the

20 DMV?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Was there a non-operator ID for someone who

23 doesn't drive?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Okay. And how did you get that photo ID

22

1 card?

2 A. Uh, my daughter helped me. She filled out

3 the papers and stuff that I need and she had to go to

4 get my record and everything from my school. And get

5 my birth certificate and my social security number

6 because I had lost all of that.

7 Q. Okay. Mr. Brown, would you have been able

8 to do that by yourself?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. How long did it take your daughter to get

11 your birth certificate, your school transcripts and

12 your social security card; how long did that take

13 her?

14 A. Um-hmm. Right at three or four months.

15 Q. And, Mr. Brown, did she have to pay for the

16 birth certificate?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And did you give her money for that?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. Okay. And did she have to pay for the ID?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. And did you give her money for that?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. How easy was it for you to find the -- the

25 financial resources to pay for those things?

23

1 A. I had to take it out of my check to pay for

2 it. And some things I had to let go to get -- taking

3 care of what I needed to do. Like a bill -- you

4 know, I might miss a bill here and pay for it.

5 Q. You might miss a bill --

6 A. Um-hmm.

7 Q. -- for something else so you could pay for

8 this?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. Okay. So that was roughly 10 or 11 years

11 ago when you got that -- that photo ID?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Okay. And since then, have you gotten

14 another one, another photo ID? Did you renew it?

15 A. It's coming up time for renewal now.

16 Q. It's coming time for renewal now?

17 A. Um-hmm.

18 Q. Okay. Do you have a sense of how long it

19 will be before you have to renew your -- your photo

20 ID? Do you know when that will be?

21 A. I think next year.

22 Q. Next year?

23 A. Um-hmm.

24 Q. Now, when you have to renew the ID, do you

25 know if you're going to have to pay money for it?

24

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you what's

3 previously been marked as Government Exhibit CB-2.

4 MR. FARR: CB-2. Why is it CB-2?

5 MR. SHAPIRO: I thought the initials and

6 the -- and the number. Do you want it another --

7 different way?

8 MR. FARR: Was -- was there a No. 1?

9 MR. SHAPIRO: There was, but I forgot to

10 put it in, uh --

11 MR. FARR: So we're saying Carnell Brown

12 1 --

13 MR. SHAPIRO: I may go back to Carnell

14 Brown 1 later on if you don't mind --

15 MR. FARR: Oh, sure.

16 MR. SHAPIRO: -- or I could --

17 MR. FARR: Okay. That's no problem.

18 MR. SHAPIRO: Just I have a picture of the

19 house --

20 MR. FARR: Okay.

21 MR. SHAPIRO: -- his home, which I forgot

22 to enter into the record.

23 MR. FARR: Okay. Thanks.

24 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

25 Q. Mr. Brown, do you recognize that?




7 (Pages 25 to 28)

25

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And this is -- what is that, uh, photograph

3 I've just shown you; what does it show?

4 A. That's my picture on my -- uh, me on my ID,

5 picture ID.

6 Q. Okay. And, Mr. Brown, is that a fair and

7 accurate representation of your -- of what your ID

8 looks like?

9 A. Yes, sir.

10 Q. The front of your ID?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Okay. And I'm showing you what's

13 previously been marked as CB-3. Do you recognize

14 that photograph?

15 A. That's the back of it, I think.

16 Q. Okay. That's the back of your current

17 photo ID?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Okay. And, again, is that a fair and

20 accurate representation of what the back of your ID

21 looks like?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. Now, one thing I -- I -- I noticed

24 that this -- this ID was, uh -- that you first got

25 this ID in 2010. Is this the second photo ID that

26

1 you -- that you got after -- you said your -- your --

2 your daughter got a birth certificate and a -- and a

3 social security card and then your school transcripts

4 and got an ID and paid money for it. She did that, I

5 think you said, roughly 10 or 11 years ago?

6 A. Um-hmm.

7 Q. Did she then -- did you then get another

8 ID? Was this the -- the second ID you got?

9 A. This is the second one.

10 Q. This is the second one. Okay. So you --

11 you renewed it?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Okay. And did you have to pay another $15?

14 A. Yeah. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Whatever the price of them. I think it was

17 $15.

18 Q. You think it was $15. Okay.

19 A. Yeah, I think.

20 Q. And, again, your sense is that -- that this

21 ID, you're going to have to -- sometime next year,

22 you're going to have to again get another ID; is that

23 your understanding?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Okay. If you want to get a new -- strike

27

1 that.

2 When you need to get a new card, what will

3 you have to do?

4 A. Well, now I have to take this here and my

5 birth certificate and my, uh, social security card

6 and my birth certificate and this old ID down for

7 the --

8 Q. Where are you going to take it?

9 A. DMV.

10 Q. How will you get there?

11 A. I'll get my brother to take me.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I have to get someone to take me down here.

14 So, essentially, my brother.

15 Q. And will your brother have to stay with you

16 while you're getting that ID?

17 A. Yes. He'll probably -- he'll wait for me.

18 Q. Okay. Have you heard of the new photo ID

19 requirement for voting?

20 A. Uh, yes, I heard it. You got to have a

21 picture ID up to date or, you know, it got to be

22 up-to-date, uh, ID. I think the ID, they have a

23 certain amount of -- amount of time before you have

24 to get a new one anyway.

25 Q. Okay. And -- and -- if you don't have an

28

1 ID, picture ID, what have you heard about whether

2 you'll be able to vote or not?

3 A. No. You won't be able to vote without no

4 picture ID.

5 Q. Okay. And is it your expectation that

6 you're going to have to pay money before you can get

7 an -- an ID in the future again?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. So you've heard about the new photo ID

10 requirement, and you also talked about how there's a

11 requirement now for -- that you can't register and

12 vote on the same day?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay. How do you feel about these types of

15 rules concerning voting?

16 A. It makes -- probably make it kind of hard

17 when you have to make two -- two or three trips in

18 going there to try to vote and stuff like that if you

19 ain't got your own transportation. It's kind of hard

20 sometimes to get transportation to go places.

21 Q. Do you feel these rules -- how does the --

22 how do these rules make you feel about voting?

23 A. I don't know. Sometime I feel like it

24 ain't worth it. You know, you try to get all of that

25 and go up there. But I know I should try to do it.




8 (Pages 29 to 32)

29

1 I try to vote anyway. That's the way I feel.

2 MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Brown.

3 No further questions.

4 EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. FARR:

6 Q. Mr. Brown, I've got a few questions for

7 you. And, uh, I may have to ask you some stuff that

8 I -- that normally wouldn't be any of my business,

9 but I need to ask you because of the lawsuit.

10 A. Um-hmm.

11 Q. So I apologize in advance.

12 A. Um-hmm.

13 Q. And, Mr. Brown, if I ask a question that

14 you don't understand, would you let me know?

15 A. All right.

16 Q. Okay. Now, the first thing I wanted to ask

17 you is did I hear you say that you've always lived in


19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. You've never lived in Nash County, have

21 you?

22 A. Yeah, I did live in -- over there.

23 Q. When did you live in Nash County?

24 A. It was -- what year was that? I don't

25 remember the year. I didn't live over there long.

30

1 Um-hmm.

2 Q. Was it before 2008?

3 A. It's somewhere along in there.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. Might be.

6 Q. And 2008 -- or -- now, I heard you say you

7 voted for -- for President Clinton?

8 A. Um-hmm.

9 Q. Where were you living when you voted for

10 President Clinton?

11 A. I think it was over in, uh, Edgecombe.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. Um-hmm.

14 Q. And then, uh, did you vote for President

15 Obama in 2008?

16 A. I think so. I'm not for sure.

17 Q. Where were you living when you voted for

18 President Obama in 2008?

19 A. In Edgecombe.

20 Q. Okay. And then did you vote for President

21 Obama in 2012?

22 A. Um-hmm.

23 Q. You did? Yes?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Yeah. And, again, Mr. Brown, you just have

31

1 to say yes or no because of the court reporter.

2 A. All right.

3 Q. If we were just sitting together out having

4 a sandwich or something, I'd -- I'd understand what

5 you're saying, but the court reporter's got to take

6 it down --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- so you need to say yes or no.

9 So you voted for President Obama in 2012,

10 and you were living in Edgecombe County at that time?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Okay. And in 2014, you were living in


14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. But you attempted to vote in Nash County?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Okay. What -- what day did you go vote

18 in -- in 2014? Was this during early voting?

19 A. Yes, sir. I don't remember exactly what

20 date it was.

21 Q. And we talked about -- what's early voting

22 mean to you?

23 A. Well, it's -- it's so, I mean, you won't be

24 out there -- you could go early. You won't have to

25 be in all -- all the big crowd and stuff waiting for

32

1 to get in line. About -- it's sometimes like you

2 could just go up there and just walk on in and mark

3 your sheets and stuff and come on back out.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. You don't have to worry.

6 Q. So early voting -- do you -- do you know

7 what I mean by Election Day?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. So early voting takes place before Election

10 Day?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. Okay. And when you went to vote in Nash

13 County in 2014 during early voting, you didn't live

14 in Nash County?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. You lived in Edgecombe County?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And did you try and go back and vote in

19 Edgecombe County in 2014?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Okay. Why not?

22 A. Well, because I -- they say you can, uh --

23 I had to be registered in -- I thought I was

24 registered in Nash County, but they said, uh, I

25 couldn't register and vote at the same day. That --


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9 (Pages 33 to 36)

33

1 that they say, Well, you couldn't go up and register

2 that day and then vote the same day that you

3 register --

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. -- on account of the law. Something like

6 that, she said.

7 Q. Okay. Well, but you voted in 2008 in

8 Edgecombe County. We just went over that, right?

9 A. Um-hmm.

10 Q. Is that yes?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And, uh, you lived in Edgecombe County in

13 2008?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And you lived in Edgecombe County in 2012

16 when you voted for, uh, President Obama, right?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And did you change your residence from

19 Edgecombe County to Nash County from 2012 to 2014?

20 A. Well, no. Here, we -- okay. The Station

21 Square Mall in Rocky Mount, okay -- that is Station

22 Square Mall. This here is the railroad. On this

23 side would be Edgecombe; this side would be Nash

24 County. But you go in the building there -- that's

25 where we went to register at -- and no one asked me

34

1 what county I live in when we went up there to be

2 registered. So I just went up there and registered

3 and left. But when I went back to vote, they said I

4 was living in Edgecombe. I couldn't vote in Nash

5 County living in Edgecombe County --

6 Q. All right.

7 A. -- on account of the town zoning or

8 something --

9 Q. All right.

10 A. -- they were saying.

11 Q. But you lived in Edgecombe County in 2014?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And you lived in Edgecombe County in 2012?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. And you lived in Edgecombe County in 2013?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about your

18 identification card that Mr. Shapiro showed you.

19 A. Um-hmm.

20 Q. Can you read anything that's on that card?

21 A. No more than just my name.

22 Q. Okay. Have you talked with Mr. Shapiro

23 about this card?

24 A. I showed it to him and told him, you know,

25 I -- I had to find my ID card.

35

1 Q. Okay. Did he tell you that this card

2 expires on April 15th of 2015?

3 A. No, sir.

4 Q. He didn't tell you that?

5 A. Unh-unh.

6 Q. And, um, if I told you that that's what it

7 says, would you believe me?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if you knew it expired on April

10 15th, 2015 -- you've been able to get these cards two

11 times in the past -- don't you think you'd be able to

12 get another one today if you knew it was expired?

13 A. I wouldn't be able to get it today.

14 Q. No, but, I mean, in the next -- you could

15 get one in the next month or two?

16 A. Oh, yeah. If I -- if it was expired, yes,

17 I could get one.

18 Q. Yeah. So if you knew -- if someone had

19 told you this was expired, you would take steps to

20 get a -- a third card?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Okay. And then -- then are you aware that

23 you can use this particular card if you've got a

24 valid one to vote in 2016?

25 A. No, sir.

36

1 Q. Well, if I told you that that's so, would

2 you believe me?

3 A. Well, I might have to, yeah.

4 Q. Okay. And, also, in talking with

5 Mr. Shapiro, did he tell you that -- that you can now

6 get a free ID card without paying any money to the

7 DMV?

8 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Sorry.

9 Misinterpretation of your question. Sorry to

10 interrupt.

11 MR. FARR: Okay.

12 A. No, sir.

13 MR. SHAPIRO: Note the objection on the

14 record. Objection. Assumes facts not in

15 evidence.

16 MR. FARR: Okay.

17 BY MR. FARR:

18 Q. But he didn't -- he didn't tell you that

19 the DMV now gives free ID cards away to people that

20 can't afford to pay the fee; is that right?

21 A. No.

22 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes facts not

23 in evidence. Lack of foundation.

24 MR. FARR: Okay. Great.

25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:




10 (Pages 37 to 40)

37

1 Q. Did you -- did you have any discussions

2 with Mr. Shapiro about your options of getting an ID

3 at the DMV?

4 A. He asked me -- said what would I -- what I

5 had to do. I told him, Yeah, I would have to pay for

6 it. And, you know, he never said nothing about I

7 could get one free or nothing like that.

8 Q. But he didn't tell you that DMV would now

9 give you an ID without a -- without you paying a fee,

10 did he?

11 A. Unh-unh.

12 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection for the same

13 reasons.

14 BY MR. FARR:

15 Q. Did he -- he didn't tell you that, did he?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. All right. Now, if you -- if you knew that

18 you could get an ID without paying a fee, how would

19 that make you feel?

20 A. Pretty good.

21 Q. Okay. And let me suggest to you,

22 Mr. Brown, when you go get your new ID --

23 A. Um-hmm.

24 Q. -- ask DMV if you have to pay a fee.

25 Because you don't have to pay one. Okay?

38


2 A. You don't have to pay?

3 Q. No, sir, you don't.

4 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Assumes facts not

5 in evidence, irrelevant, lack of foundation.

6 MR. FARR: It's irrelevant for a government

7 attorney not to tell this man that he doesn't

8 have to pay a fee to get an ID; is that right?

9 Is that your position?

10 MR. SHAPIRO: It's my position it's not

11 relevant -- to the extent that we're having a

12 discussion, it's irrelevant to our understanding

13 of what this gentleman knows and what the state

14 has informed him about his rights up to this

15 point. But the United States will, at a time

16 after this deposition, ensure this person is

17 informed and do -- what the State of North

18 Carolina should be doing is another matter all

19 together.

20 MR. FARR: Okay.

21 MR. SHAPIRO: But our job here is to find

22 out what this gentleman knows. Not to suddenly

23 educate him for purposes of this deposition.

24 MR. FARR: Okay. All right.

25 MR. SHAPIRO: And I would ask that you do

39

1 that.

2 MR. FARR: Well, I'll -- I'll ask the

3 questions.

4 MR. SHAPIRO: You're supposed to be asking

5 questions.

6 MR. FARR: I will ask questions. And you

7 can state your objections to whatever questions I

8 ask.

9 MR. SHAPIRO: I am. I'm engaging in

10 discussion because you -- we were having a

11 discussion, so I'm engaging in it with you. But

12 I'm happy --

13 MR. FARR: Right.

14 MR. SHAPIRO: -- to make short and brief

15 objections.

16 BY MR. FARR:

17 Q. But, Mr. Brown, Mr. Shapiro showed you your

18 identification card and talked to you about it, but

19 he did not tell you that the card expired on April

20 15th, 2015, did he?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right.


24 answered.

25 BY MR. FARR:

40

1 Q. All right. Now, you have a copy of your

2 birth certificate?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. Did you know that you don't -- you no

5 longer need a birth certificate to get a free ID

6 card?

7 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. The same reasons.

8 A. No, sir, I didn't.

9 MR. FARR: You can have a standing

10 objection.

11 MR. SHAPIRO: Standing objection.

12 BY MR. FARR:

13 Q. Okay. Do you know -- did you know -- did

14 Mr. Shapiro tell you that you don't need to have a

15 birth certificate anymore to get a free ID card?

16 A. No, sir.

17 Q. Okay. Do you know your social security

18 number?

19 A. I don't -- I can't -- I don't know it by

20 heart.

21 Q. Okay. But do you have something at home

22 that, uh -- that would be able to show you your

23 social security number?

24 A. Yes, sir.

25 Q. Do you have a social security card?




11 (Pages 41 to 44)

41

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Brown, have you ever gone

3 by any other names?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Okay. When you've gone to vote in the

6 past, you've voted in Edgecombe County, I think; is

7 that right?

8 A. Um-hmm.

9 Q. You've got to say yes or no.

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. And have you ever had any trouble voting in

12 the past when you went to vote in Edgecombe County?

13 A. No, sir.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. No. I mean ...

16 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Brown, do you -- what's your

17 home -- your home address?

18 A. 195 Sunpointe Lane, Tarboro, North

19 Carolina.

20 Q. Do you live with anyone?

21 A. Uh, my nephew live with me.

22 Q. Your nephew lives with you?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Okay. Do you have a telephone?

25 A. A cell phone.

42

1 Q. You do have a cell phone?

2 A. Um-hmm.

3 Q. What -- and what kind of cell phone do you

4 have?

5 A. (Indicating).

6 Q. Let me see. It's a -- it looks like -- do

7 you know -- U.S. Cellular is what the --

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. -- cell phone says. Does that sound right?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. So you have a plan with U.S. Cellular?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. Do you think that you'll need assistance to

14 go renew your identification card or do you think

15 you'll be able to get your family members to take

16 you?

17 A. My brother, he mostly take me, you know,

18 when he have time. He mostly take me around --

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. -- places.

21 Q. And you think he'll take you this time?

22 A. I think he'll be -- if he have time, yeah,

23 he'll take me.

24 Q. And who -- do you pay for your cell phone

25 bills?

43

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. And do you ever get on the Internet on your

3 cell phone?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. I don't know how to use no Internet.

7 Q. Okay. Have you ever used a computer?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. How did -- how did -- you understand this

10 deposition is being taken because of a lawsuit that's

11 been filed?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And how did you first come to know about

14 this lawsuit?

15 A. Because I speak -- I was called on the

16 telephone.

17 Q. Who called you?

18 A. Uh, I talked to some people on the

19 telephone and they told me. I don't know exactly who

20 it was I talked to on the phone.

21 Q. Okay. And you don't remember who those

22 people were?

23 A. Unh-unh.

24 Q. Is that no?

25 A. No, sir.

44

1 Q. Okay. And --

2 A. I forget that.

3 Q. How did you come to know Mr. Shapiro?

4 A. Well, there was a young man that come out

5 there and talk with me, and he said that someone else

6 would be getting in touch with me.

7 Q. Was that young man's name George?

8 A. I don't remember his name.

9 Q. Okay. So how did you first get to know

10 Mr. Shapiro?

11 A. Well, he came by the house and asked me

12 about did I have a ride, you know, to get up to come

13 up here. And I didn't have no ride really because my

14 brother car broke down right now.

15 Q. Okay. Is today the first day you met

16 Mr. Shapiro?

17 A. I met him the day before.

18 Q. And did you show him your identification

19 card yesterday?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Have you ever owned a car?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And when was the last time you owned a car?

24 A. Mmm, about five or six years ago.

25 Q. And when did you retire from work?


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12 (Pages 45 to 48)

45

1 A. Uh, mmm, I forget what year. The doctor2 stopped me from working on my own medical.3 Q. You did what, sir?4 A. The doctor stopped me from working.5 Q. Uh-huh. Why was that?6 A. Because of my breathing and I get7 short-winded of all times.8 Q. Okay.9 A. Emphysema.

10 Q. And you say that you receive social11 security payments?12 A. Yes, sir.13 Q. And how much do you get a month; do you14 know?15 A. Nine sixty.16 Q. How much?17 A. Nine sixty-six.18 Q. Nine hundred and sixty --19 A. Nine ninety-six. $996.20 Q. Okay. Do you get any other benefits from21 the government?22 A. Uh, $15 food stamps.23 Q. So you can get food stamps?24 A. Fifteen dollar worth.25 Q. Okay. How long have you been receiving

46

1 food stamps?

2 A. Uh, I don't know exactly how long. No,

3 they, uh -- they had cut -- well, I think a couple

4 years. When I got a raise in my check, they cut them

5 off. And then, uh, I went down there to social

6 service and she asked was I still getting food

7 stamps. I told her no, sir, because they said I was

8 getting too much in my check, which I wasn't getting

9 but 950 -- 960, something like that of money. And

10 they sent me a card saying I could start back getting

11 food stamps, but they're only giving me $15 a month,

12 which is a little bit.

13 Q. And how did you -- how -- what did you have

14 to do to get food stamps?

15 A. Well, when I first got out of work there --

16 when I first -- the doctor took me out of work, they

17 had put me on food stamps. I didn't have no kind of

18 income coming in. And then when I did start to get a

19 little income coming in, they -- they started cutting

20 them back. If I get a raise, they'll cut it back.

21 You get a raise, they cut it back. Because it's down

22 to $15 a month.

23 Q. Okay. Did you have to go to an office to

24 make an application for food stamps; did you have to

25 go to a social services office?

47

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. So to start getting food stop -- stamps,

3 you had to go to a social services office?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. And did you have to fill out an

6 application?

7 A. I couldn't read. They had to fill it out

8 for me.

9 Q. Okay. Did they help you fill it out?

10 A. Yeah. They filled out one. Then they sent

11 one home for my daughter to fill out.

12 Q. Okay. And did you have to show them your

13 identification card?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay. And then between the people at the

16 social services and your daughter, they helped you

17 fill the application out?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Just give me a second.

20 Okay. Looking back at your identification

21 card, which is Exhibit CB-2, if -- if I told you,

22 Mr. Brown, that that was issued on 5/11/2010, would

23 you have any reason to doubt that that's true?

24 A. Mmm, I don't --

25 Q. Let me -- let me rephrase it. The card I

48

1 -- you know, I'm -- I'm blessed that I had a good

2 education and I'm able to read.

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. And I'm thankful for that.

5 A. Yes, sir.

6 Q. The card, as I read it, says it was given

7 to you on May 11th, 2010. Does that sound about

8 right, that you got it in 2010?

9 A. That sounds about right.

10 Q. Okay. So you paid a fee for this card back

11 in 2010?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And the one that you -- the identification

14 card that we don't have a copy of that you received

15 that Mr. Shapiro asked you about, you received that

16 card prior to 2010?

17 A. I had that before I got this one.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And -- and you paid a fee for that card

21 also?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Do you know how much you pay each month for

24 your cell phone?

25 A. Uh, $43.




13 (Pages 49 to 52)

49

1 Q. Do you have a TV at your house?

2 A. Yes, I have a TV.

3 Q. Do you have cable?

4 A. No, sir.

5 Q. Okay. Do you have utility bills at your

6 house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What sort of utility bills do you have?

9 A. For my electricity. Well, the krailer

10 (phonetic) is totally electric.

11 Q. The -- the -- the house is all electric?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And do you have a well for your water?

14 A. Yes, sir.

15 Q. Okay. And do you pay your electric --

16 electrical bills?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. How much are those a month?

19 A. Last month was $358.

20 Q. And your nephew who's living with you, does

21 he pay you anything to live there with you?

22 A. No, sir.

23 Q. Okay. How old is he?

24 A. He's about 35 or 36 years old. That my

25 sister's son. She passed away.

50

1 MR. FARR: Okay. Mr. Brown, those are all

2 the questions I have for right now. Thank you

3 very much, sir.


5 MR. SHAPIRO: I have a little bit on

6 redirect. Mainly, I forgot to put this in the

7 record, if you wouldn't mind, Mr. Farr.

8 MR. FARR: No problem.

9 EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:

11 Q. Mr. Brown, I'm going to show you what's

12 been previously marked as CB-1. If you could look at

13 that photograph. Do you recognize that photograph,

14 Mr. Brown?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And what does that photograph show?

17 A. It shows my -- the krailer that I live in.

18 And it show, uh --

19 Q. The what you live in?

20 A. The krailer -- krailer house.

21 Q. The krailer house?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. And is that a fair and accurate

24 representation of what your house looks like from the

25 outside?

51

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. Okay. And do you, uh -- do you own that

3 house or do you rent it?

4 A. I rent.

5 Q. And is that -- on what kind of road is

6 servicing that house?

7 A. It's a dirt road.

8 Q. And is that -- it's also near a train

9 track, correct?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. All right,

12 Mr. Brown. I have no further questions for you

13 at this time. Thank you so much for taking the

14 time to talk to us.

15 MR. FARR: I've got a couple more. I'm

16 sorry.

17 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm sorry.

18 MR. FARR: I just want to make sure -- I

19 want to clarify something here.

20 MR. SHAPIRO: Yeah.

21 EXAMINATION

22 BY MR. FARR:

23 Q. Uh, Mr. Brown, I want to make sure that you

24 understand that your -- your identification card has

25 expired.

52

1 A. It has?

2 Q. Yes, sir. Would you please confirm that

3 with your daughter?

4 A. All right. I didn't think it expired until

5 next year.

6 Q. Right. And, um, also, I wanted to ask you

7 a question. If you -- if you needed help to go get a

8 new ID card, would you be willing to accept it from

9 the State of North Carolina if you needed it?

10 A. Yes, sir.

11 Q. Um, could -- would you be willing to give

12 me my cell -- your cell phone number so I could have

13 someone call you if they could help you?

14 A. I don't -- I don't know the number here

15 because I -- I -- I mean, it's my phone, but I just

16 don't know the number. You probably could look in

17 there and pull it up, but I don't know how to do it.

18 Q. Could we -- could we go off the record and

19 see if I could take your number down?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. Okay. We'll do it off the record.

22 A. All right.

23 MR. FARR: All right. That's all I have,

24 sir.

25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the




14 (Pages 53 to 54)

53

1 deposition of Mr. Carnell Brown. Time going off

2 record is 11:50 a.m.

3

4 (SIGNATURE WAIVED.)

5 (THE DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 11:50 A.M.)

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54

1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER2

3 STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )4 COUNTY OF WAKE )5

6 I, Eileen M. Dunne, the officer before whom7 the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify8 that the witness whose testimony appears in the9 foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the

10 testimony of said witness was taken by me to the best11 of my ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting12 under my direction; that I am neither counsel for,13 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the14 action in which this deposition was taken, and15 further that I am not a relative or employee of any16 attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto,17 nor financially or otherwise interested in the18 outcome of the action.19

20

_________________________21 EILEEN M. DUNNE

Notary Public # 20131490019522

23

24

25


General Information

Court United States District Court for the Middle District of NorthCarolina; United States District Court for the Middle District ofNorth Carolina

Federal Nature of Suit Civil Rights - Voting[441]

Docket Number 1:13-cv-00660


