Fat Sau11th February 2003, 05:34 PMHas anybody here read The Magus of Java by Kosta Danaos?

When I read this book I could not put it down. It tells the story of the author's experiences being taught by the current lineage holder of the Mo Pai Taoist sect, of which Chang San Feng was also lineage holder (also the only person to complete the 72 level system). There is also a great deal written of the past-master's lives, including the author's teacher (a level 30+ immortal). n.b. 70% die trying to pass level 3!!! :eek:

I am hoping to start Kungfu classes under Dan Sifu soon :), and have researched the Shaolin Wahnam method. It is very interesting comparing the philosophies of the 2 schools (routes of attainment).

Even better I have found the author's organisation's website Wenwukuan (http://www.wenwu.org)

Comments? :)Fat Sau11th February 2003, 05:47 PMPS I have the link for the authors teacher setting fire to paper by touch. Normally I would think this just a trick. But there really is something about it. Check it out in Quicktime (http://www.mysticfire.com/ntsc/76063/eastmovbg.html?cart=104498885712174496)

Enjoy!Marcus11th February 2003, 08:03 PMHello Fat Sau, I just got this book today, I've only had time to flick through it and I can't wait to find the time to sink into it. Some of the stories I've read are incredible.Fat Sau12th February 2003, 04:06 PMThey really are incredible.

I have also read his second book "Nei Gong: Art of the Warrior Sages". This helps clarify/rectify some of the points raised in the last book. It then goes off on a tangent focussing mainly on the author's development and the common spiritual ground that various other religions and their sects share. I don't find it as enjoyable as Magus, but I believe has to be read to get a fuller picture. Plus there is some of Level 1 training divulged, if not sparcely.

There are some points that I would like to discuss in the Chi Kung forum.

On the website forum the author stated that by practicing cross-legged meditation and an art like Chen style Taijiquan it is possible to completely fill the dantian in five years. This seems a very long time.

This is a question like "How long is a piece of string?", so don't take it seriously. I realise many factors are involved, but if all factors are equal, how long do you think it would take to achieve a full dantian in the Wahnam school. When the Wahnam school has such expedient methods?

One thought I had was that the the Shaolin Wahnam method is based on different principles, eg dantian kept semi-permenantly open with energy flow until the flow has built up to a point where it is full. Thus aquiring the full effects of a truely open and full dantian. Is my theory close to the Shaolin Wahnam's School's Chi Kung philosophy.

Any thoughts?

Jon :)Marcus12th February 2003, 06:41 PMOut of my depth on this one, anyone else care to offer a reply?:)Antonius12th February 2003, 07:11 PMHow many liters does your Dantian hold? ;)

But seriously...this should be a topic for the Chi Kung forum. So who wants to start a new thread?Fat Sau12th February 2003, 08:36 PMSorry guys, that was an ill-thoughtout rushed lunchtime post. After reading a bit of "The Complete Book of Shaolin" I answered my own question :o. I'm sure there will be more to come though hahaha :p.

Still. It's worth checking out the links for the wenwu forum and the Quicktime clip - the master is at the end of the clip. Apparently he was told that he would be filmed for research purposes. He cured one of the producers of an eye infection immediately by passing less than 1% of his power through an acupuncture needle.

I won't spoil anymore of the book for you Marcus.

Has anyone else read this?Antonius22nd July 2004, 03:58 AMI'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :)Marcus22nd July 2004, 10:35 AMHey Antonius,

I shall look forward to your thoughts on this book. I must say that I found it an incredibly good read and it caused me many questioning thoughts regarding the whole approach to the training of energy. It's one of the few books that I've read more than once and I must admit to being intrigued about the absence of information on Level 3.

Got to go Ollie's had a number 2 and I've realised that I forgot to bring the Nappies and wet wipes, oopps :rolleyes: Ah, the subtle joys of fatherhood.

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha BuddaFat Sau22nd July 2004, 03:34 PMI'm reading this now. I'll comment once I've finished. :)

Looking forward to that.

Cyberkwoon had a lot of debates about this recently. However, the kids threw insults at the skeptics of the threads, and it all went downhill from there :( . Sher-fu Andreas, a member of the Mo-pai joined the forum to try and help answer questions (although he is limited in what he could say) he was treated quite badly in my opinion. He left the forum giving his email address to allow people to ask questions. His website is LungHuShan (http://www.lunghushan.com).

Andreas announced the news that Sifu Chang has now retired from teaching and healing (I beleive this is to do with the interest generated by the documentary and books). The most senior student will help the school's existing students finish their "training" (I take this to mean "level"). So far noone has achieved the infamous Level 4 coupling of the dragon and tiger or yin and yang (this person will become the successor of the system).

It was interesting to hear Sigung's response to the questions posed in the latest Q&As about this book.

Incidently after a car crash in Thailand my other qigong teacher recently visited a very powerful "Tok-tok doctor in Jakata" with a similar ability, who could channel huge amounts of electricity through his fingers. He said that the treatment was so short he could not take anymore, it was very intense. one or more treatments and he and his wife were fixed. He said it was hard to control his body (body jerking around, face shaking etc). He really wanted to ask the doctor whether he could set newspaper on fire at touch but declined (doh!)

Good Reading

JonAntonius22nd July 2004, 11:28 PMI read the threads on cyberkwoon. As I expected, it was a witch hunt. Even talking about basic energy experiences (like self manifested chi flow!!) will often get you ridiculed on other forums, so you can imagine what happens to people who talk about pyrokinetics and across-space striking.

Recently, I was browsing a forum where they ridiculed a guy who politely and coherently asked about selective breaking (e.g., breaking the bottom but not the top of two stacked, supported bricks). Actually, I considered posting a comment. Since I can break the bottom brick, I felt that I should answer some of his questions. But the people on the forum were just too rude. I chose to ignore them.

I thought Andreas was quite generous and clear with his comments. It would be nice to have him on our forum. He might also be curious to read Sifu's comments on the subject (http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html).

Actually, that's not a bad idea. Maybe I'll write him an e-mail. :)mopai14th January 2005, 12:37 AMI've heard a man could set a pile of paper on fire with his nei kung. He is Chinese-Indonesian, and a very well known healer.Pyrogenesis seems to be nothing for some people. But it coressponds to the level of power they have achieved.Pyrogenesis only shows how much power one has. But after that, he has all paranormal abilities.Seeing the future,karma,communicating to the death.I believe this help someone to know what karma is. Meditating will alter the practitioners mind. They become calmer, more dinamic,creative.I will not say that tens of years of practicing nei kung just to set somehing on fire is a good thing.And other naive purposes. Indeed, we can afford a match to burn something.

I know I haven't witnessed pyrogenesis with my own eyes. But when one day I met this man, he could electrocute me with his power. So It could be possible that he is able to do pyrogenesis (burning things with his qi) which is written in a book (Magus of Java). Not more that 1% of his total power. Even some people said the strongest ordinary man could be knocked out with his bioelectric flow.I want to ask why did he need a lot of time to get abilities like pyrogenesis, levitation, telekinesis, remote viewing, etc ? (More than 18 years).The master said that what he did was nei kung. And nei kung is higher than chi kung. Nei kung deals with both yin and yang. Where chi kung only deals with yang chi.

But what I want to underline is the master used his abilities to heal people.Yet, he could kill people from more than 10 yards away with energy blast.You guys have any opinions ?Antonius14th January 2005, 01:15 AMWelcome to the forum, mopai. :)

Have you met Sifu Chang? Are you his student?mopai14th January 2005, 04:40 AMGreetings,I have already ask mr John to be his apprentice a few years ago. But he refused subtlety. He said he didnt accept any new students.So I never ask him about that again.But, he helped me a lot which I cant describe in detail here. In the past times, he healed many people with his abilities.I hope in this forum, there are no insulting words where I used to get fromother MA forums. I know westerners are usually skeptics about eastern art especially regarding the mo pai lineage.:)I just want to know what Mr Wong Kiew Kit's opinion about Mr John and hislineage.Zhang Wuji14th January 2005, 05:56 AMI read both books too, and in fact, far from making me sceptical, they "softened" me for the more incredible feats I read about later on.

This lineage is very fascinating. I have been studying Chinese ideology for years, and Mozi was always sort of derided in favour of Kongzi and Laozi/Zhuangzi. Many Chinese scholars regard Mozi as some sort of very poor cousin to the above giants. Mr John (can't spell his Greek surname, please excuse me) was the first one to make me realise there was something more to Mozi than most Chinese think and this began my own research.

Actually, mopai, when I first saw your user name, I guessed you were sort of affiliated or at least a fan of these books. You won't get any derisive words from me - I am Chinese and am a fan of all the great Chinese philosophers, including Mozi, and I know that they were also excellent spiritual and martial arts cultivators.

I suspect the reason why Level 1 & 2 is hard for most people to attain has to do with the fact that most of the time people spend in meditation is wasted. My guess is Sifu's advanced students have probably attained them already because they are adept at building energy at the dantian. Never estimate the powerful skill of being able to "relax, and focus". So many of my fellow Shaolin Wahnam students have told me that they feel this perceptible ball of energy in their abdomen (and even I, the beginner feel this from time to time).

But I am honestly surprised at the author's lifestyle - not quite puritanical for a Taoist cultivator, but I guess his system allows it.Antonius14th January 2005, 11:58 AMHi mopai. :)

You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum.

My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about Sifu Wong's opinions here:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html

As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However, I find term very useful for general classification.mopai14th January 2005, 03:01 PMI have read a bit about Mo zi only from The magus of java. Interesting enough.Still I'm glad that you and the other guys give some respects to the mopai. And we can discuss the MA side without throwing harsh words.I'm a mopai fans, and I am always curious about the stuff of chinese legends.Including their teachings.But until now, the mopais tend to be close about their art.I tried for a couple of times to meditate and reach total calmness.Though it is always very hard and I dont really know I have ever reached that state or not.If I have, then It would be for a very short time.I cant maintain it for a longer period.Its so difficult to sit still in this age.I guess I will try to do the meditation tehniques like what is described in kostas' second book, Nei Kung.According to Nei kung, a level 3 mo pai student have cut four string that hold dantian in its place, then make the dantian mobile.And they can move it at will.It feels like a soft qi lump.

I'm also wondering what's the relation about qi gong and paranormal abilities such as talking with spirits, gods, and the sort of it ?If I wasnt mistaken, I have read from question and answer that Master Wong KK can do this at will.Is there any possibilities that he would ask the gods to teach qi gong or nei kung tehniques ?mopai14th January 2005, 03:14 PMHi mopai. :)

You won't find insults here. I have read "The Magus and Java." A while ago, I invited Sifu Andreas to our forum. (He politely declined.) It's nice to meet someone who has met Sifu Chang. You are very welcome on our forum.

My teacher, Sifu Wong Kiew Kit, does not post openly on these boards, though he does spend some time reading here. To the best of my knowledge, Sifu Wong has not yet read "The Magus of Java," nor has he met Sifu Chang. However, you can read about Sifu Wong's opinions here:

http://www.shaolin.org/answers/ans04b/jul04-3.html

As for "chi kung" vs. "nei kung," my opinion is that "chi kung" is just an umbrella term for many different arts of energy cultivation. We could just as easily use the term "nei kung" instead of "chi kung" for arts like One Finger Shooting Zen. "Chi Kung" is a relatively modern term, and one that you will not often find in classical texts. However, I find term very useful for general classification.

Thank u for you kind words, Antonius. I have read the Q&A section before I join this forum. And that's the reason why I join this forum. :DI have post a question to Q&A email address regarding the magus of java. But I guess It hasnt been replied yet.One finger shooting Zen ? the one that is able to put down a candle ? :)Marcus15th January 2005, 09:56 AMHello Mopai,

I would just like to welcome you to the Shaolin Wahnam forum. I have read the Magus of Java and it is a pleasure to have someone on the forum who has met Sifu Chang.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddhamopai15th January 2005, 02:49 PMThank you for your warm greeting, Marcus. I see you are a wanham instructor. I think Mr Wong KK is a great martial artist, and also a verywise man. After reading some of the Q&A in his personal website, Iam very interested in his qi gong and his experiences regarding thespiritual side of qi gong.But it's a pity that he doesnt contribute and answer in this forum as well.Darryl15th January 2005, 03:00 PMDear Mopai,

Welcome to the forum :)

As a term of respect to our Sifu, could I ask you not to refer to him as Mr Wong KK, but instead, to refer to him as either Sifu Wong, Master Wong or even just Wong Kiew Kit.

Thank youAntonius16th January 2005, 12:31 AMMopai,

I'm sure many people would be interested to read more about your experience with Sifu Chang.

And yes, Darryl has given some good advice. You are very welcome on our forum, but we are obliged to be honest with you about showing respect towards Kungfu masters. I'm sure it was just an honest mistake, but it is polite to use a master's full name, not an abbreviation. For example I have not met Sifu Chang, but out of respect, I refer to him as Sifu Chang. It would be impolite to refer to him as J. Chang or Mr. John or even Sifu J.C.

Thanks! :)mopai16th January 2005, 03:04 AMOK no problem about that. I will refer him as Sifu Wong.I feel no comfortable to say my detailed experiences with Sifu Chang. I reallydont want to exaggerate Sifu Chang's abilities in front of Sifu Wong.But I will tell you how Sifu Chang heals people with acupuncture. I have met him a couple of times to help my parents by holding their feet which I acted as ground.Because the bioelectric current must be channeled from the patients body to the ground.After he sticked some needles and I held my parents' feet, he continously sent a steady flow of electric current.Sometimes the current became stronger hence made their muscles jerk.Also did with my hand muscles.My mother had a pain in her leg. Maybe she got a rheumatoid arthritis.But after the first treatment. She could run without pain. The pain had gone.Prior to the treatment, she could hardly walk.

If I was not mistaken, I also heard that Sifu Chang could heal cancer as well, but probability is 4 among of 7 patients. Unfortunately the 3 patients were died instantly (whose I believe the doctors and the medic have gave up treating these 3 patients andsent them home to live their short time) and the other 4 patients were healed instantly.Since that time, he has never attempted to heal patients with cancer.Antonius16th January 2005, 04:49 PMThank you for sharing, mopai. Very interesting. So when you were acting as a "ground," you could feel Sifu Chang's energy? What did that feel like?

(By the way, I'm happy to hear that your mother is now able to walk. :))mopai17th January 2005, 01:03 AMIt felt the same like when you touch an open electric wire.The same jolt.But it was benevolent and not so intense like a 220v current.But strong enough to make you startled.Antonius18th January 2005, 12:24 AMVery interesting. Thank you, mopai.

So does Sifu Chang still take patients? How did you come to meet him?mopai18th January 2005, 08:18 AMI think he only heals close friends and relatives now. It was a few years ago,when he still heals patients.I have address of a chinese doctor who could heal patients with qi.The patients said the qi feel so hot.And the doctor was able to set paper on fire as well.If you interested to meet/contact him, I will give you the address.What about Sifu Wong ? does he heal sick people too ?mopai18th January 2005, 08:41 AMI've met some mo pai students, they are very humble person. There is a high degree of difference with an ordinary kung fu students, which usually are pretty arrogant.For them, "if you cant proof it, then it is a hoax".There are only a few forums where I do not get ridiculed for asking opinions or sharing thoughts about the magus of java.This forum is one of the few forum. ;)I will share my thoughts on forums which give some respect to Sifu Chang.

Have anyone of you heard about mao shan pai? I heard there is a very powerful kungfu taught in that lineage. Maybe a kind of shen gong.Sometimes they use magic (black)??mopai19th January 2005, 02:02 PMGuys, this is a copy a got from mopai yahoo forum : (this copy's origin isfrom a post in wenwukuan forum)A guy who wrote this copy added some notes with this mark (*) :I added this copy with this mark (>>):------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you by chance have a copy of some of the posts at the Wenwukuanforum? How long was the forum up and can you remember anything elseKostas cited from the Mo-Pai text? Were there any other interestingfacts or revelations that were discussed there but have not beenmentioned in the books or at CK?>I've met a young man who could reach level 2 for only 3 years of training

9."One of the foremost living masters of neikung in China is a woman,Yang Meijun. She is the head of a Kunlun Qi gong and martial artsschool, best known for her instruction of the Wild Goose style, whichis part of the body of knowledge she possesses."

10."The main concepts in the MoPai are universality (do onto others),universal justice (not revenge - I have been awed by how my masterlets karma take its course without interceding, and have tried tofollow his example), submission to the Will of Heaven, freedom frommaterial possessions (Liao Sijo literally did not have a pot to pissin, when he could have had anything and everything he wanted)."Hubert19th January 2005, 02:52 PMThanks for sharing, mopai, that is some fascinating information.

I have just bought "The Magus of Java", and I am looking forward to reading it. It is strange how less than a year ago I would have dismissed it as rubbish without even trying, whereas know, after all I have experienced with Sifu and Shaolin Wahnam, I don't have a single doubt that it is all true...

I am not sure if it was in the book or forum but it was mentionedthis training can lead to an earlier death as you are altering yourenergy from health uses to martial power so you have less sustainingyour body. This is why you should not train too hard.

I remember Jeffrey quoting a similar discussion he had with Sifu. Not sure which thread it was, but it was about why some Taijiquan master would die early, which could seem paradoxal.Marcus19th January 2005, 10:11 PMHello Mopai,

I seem to recall that Kosta Danaos had a website and forum that was terminated due to unsolicitated negative attention. I have been keeping an eye on www.lunghushan.com website, which I think is very well done though I keep waiting for many of the sections to have content other than "coming soon". In case I havn't already mentioned I found The Magus of Java to be a fascinating read.

I look forward to reading anything you may like to add to this thread. Once again it is a pleasure to welcome you here.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha BuddhaAntonius19th January 2005, 11:07 PMThis is slightly off topic, but since mopai's last post mentioned both Yang Meijun and Wang Peishang, I thought I would correct something.

Sifu Wang Peisheng and Sifu Yang Meijun have both passed away. Wang Peisheng died earlier this year, and I think Yang Meijun died a few years ago (at the age of 104). Coincidentally, I'm currently learning Wild Goose qigong in Yang Meijun's lineage (via Dr. Bingkun Hu) at schoo, and learned some Taijiquan in Wang Peisheng's lineage (via Sifu Zhang Yun) a few years ago.mopai20th January 2005, 03:33 AMHubert,From my point of view, an internal training will be lethal enough while you have reached a high level. Because incorrect training will enable your strong qito damage some organs.Like the heart.I was told by a mopai insider, that there was a mopai disciple who died because his heart tendon was cut off.And the doctor examining the body wasvery surprised with this incident.The doctor said the death similar to this case was possible when someone fell off from an aeroplane. :confused:Indeed, there is still a risk for a lower level students. But with a guru'sguidance, the risk will be minimalize.But these facts (or myths ??) make me reconsider the benefit and the loss of internal training. They also scared me a bit.I will look for a similar discussion with Sifu Wong regarding "early death" you mentioned.

Marcus,www.lunghushan.com is still under construction for a long period, and that really makes me feel bored, too.I think you should find a better source. :rolleyes:

Antonius,Thanks for the correction and the info.Fat Sau20th January 2005, 11:12 AMHello again everyone, haven't been here for a bit.

It's great to see this thread being started up again. I was shown this website by a student of this teacher. This man has had some contact with Sifu Chang (I'm not sure how much).

It explains the development stages of the Mo-Pai's Thunder path of cultivation in the more traditional way. I would be interested to hear Sigung's comments on this.

www.QigongResearch.org (http://www.qigongresearch.org/mod.php?mod=userpage&menu=13&page_id=5)

Enjoy!

Jonseandenty17th May 2005, 10:05 PMHi to All,

It looks like this thread has been inactive for some time. Im a student of the author of The Magus of Java. I live in the states and am interested in joining discussions centered on neikung and authentic systems and teachers. Im also happy to answer any questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to.

Suggestions/recommendations on interesting threads to check out are much appreciated.

Best, SeanMarcus17th May 2005, 10:22 PMHello Sean,

Let me take this opportunity to welcome you here to the forum of the Shaolin Wahnam Institute. It's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward to reading your posts and thoughts.

It's hard to direct you to specific threads to check out, but one that is causing much interest at the moment is this one in the Shaolin Kung Fu section: http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3103&page=1&pp=10

Anyway, have fun and I wish you well with your practice.

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha BuddhaLeeWeiJoo18th May 2005, 04:59 AMGreetings and welcome Sean :)Andrew18th May 2005, 06:58 AMWelcome Sean.

Im also happy to answer any questions relating to Mo Pai that I am permitted to.As long as you do not break any of the forum rules and regulations, you are most weclome to answer (and ask) as many questions as you wish.

AndrewMichael Udel18th May 2005, 04:05 PMRegarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?).

My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number, and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread.

I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some of the blank spaces created by the language barrier with stuff like Bodhidarma being a Taoist Mo-Pai master. ????

It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got him to a place equivalent to level 72? Danaos says there is a book describing all 72 levels and that students who reach level 3 are allowed to copy it if they can read classical Chinese. Who wrote the bookMozi? Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke Skywalker? I mention Luke Skywalker because Danaos continually makes references to Star Wars throughout the book.

Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind, evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it.

Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered.

Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't.

Michaelseandenty18th May 2005, 04:42 PMThanks for the warm welcome.

Best, Seanseandenty18th May 2005, 10:39 PMMichael,

I like your line of questioning. Even as a student of the author, I like to maintain a healthy level of skepticism. If my memory serves me, I think about 50% of your questions are addressed in the book. Perhaps a reread is in order.

Regarding the book, Magus of Java , did anybody else notice that Danaos reported there have been two people who achieved level 72? He claims the first was Bodhidarma and the second was Zhang San Feng (sp?).

That's correct. Those are the ones John Chang knows of. There certainly could be others.

My copy of the book is back in Texas, or California, or maybe a hitchiker snatched it out of my car when I was driving between the two, so I can't quote you the page number, and heaven knows the mind plays tricks, but...Bodhidarma, level 72 in the Mo-Pai Taoist system? This should definitely have been examined in the infamous Zen/Tao thread.

Boddhidharma was never a member of the Mo Pai. Nor does the book make that claim.

I think there were many places in The Magus of Java where Danaos had problems with the language barrier, and he said as much in a thank you to a fellow student who translated for him when speaking to Sifu Chang. However, I think Danaos filled in some of the blank spaces created by the language barrier

I can assure you that this is not the case. Its true that Sifu Changs associate sometimes translates more involved/complex ideas, but Kostas intended the book to be a serious work as well as a document of his actual experience with his teacher (from what Ive heard John Changs English is actually not bad). Of course a work of this nature will always draw controversy just by its very nature. And really, why should you take it seriously? Whether you choose to believe or not is really a choice.

It also begs the question, if Bodhidarma was the first person to reach level 72, and he lived about 1,000 years after Mozi, how did Bodhidarma know there were 72 levels unless he was an active member in the sect, and not just a guy whose own practice got him to a place equivalent to level 72?

The 72 levels of power correspond to the 72 energy centers of the body. This is written about in many spiritual/meditation systems and is certainly not exclusive to the Mo Pai. And again, Boddhidharma was not a member of the Mo Pai.

Danaos says there is a book describing all 72 levels and that students who reach level 3 are allowed to copy it if they can read classical Chinese. Who wrote the bookMozi? Bodhidarma? Zhang San Feng? Luke Skywalker?

Chang San-feng. Whether he wrote it or spoke it is anyone's guess.

Since this thread is called the Magus of Java, I may as well get it all out. During the story of John Chang's Sigung battling the blind, evil, former warlord, does the plot make much sense? John Chang's Sigung stops a warlord and leaves him blind as a lesson. Ten years pass, the blind, evil warlord has caught up to the Mo-Pai master in ability level, I guess the Mo-Pai master was on vacation from training??, and the blind, evil warlord searches for and finds John Chang's Sifu in a hut in the woods. The man who accelerated his training based on pure hatred then says that he won't kill John Chang's Sifu because the guy was kind enough to offer him tea? I think Sauron made the same offer to Gandalf, but Tolkienn failed to mention it.

There are many more equally unbelievable stories that have not been written about. Many of these Kostas has personally witnessed and or captured on video for the benefit of his students. You might also be suprised to read Sifi Wong Keiw Kit's comments about such "fairy tales." There is a link earlier in this thread- check it out. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

Okay, okay, it's just a martial arts story, but to me it's Danaos filling in the blank spaces with some George Lucas variants. In Nei-Gong Danaos admitted he altered the facts in the case of the ping-pong ball, but I think there's a lot more that got altered.

Funny you should mention; many of Kostas student's thought George Lucas ripped off the Magus of Java when the book was first published. Kostas sent Lucas a copy of the book before the forth Star Wars film came out. In all likelihood, it's just a coincidence. As for the ping-pong ball, that was an honest mistake.

Let me be clear, this is a critique of a book, not an insult to John Chang or the Mo-Pai martial arts system. I'm in China right now because the language barrier is preventing me from just chatting to one of my teachers, much less learning the entire history of a martial arts system, so I know how tough it is breaking through the language barrier. I think Danaos used a normal amount of "poetic license" for a work of fiction, but it's being treated like non-fiction, which it ain't.

Are you sure about that?

Hope that was helpful. Who are you studying with in China? That's awsome.

Sincerely, Sean DentyMichael Udel19th May 2005, 02:30 AMHello Sean!

Thank you for a very methodical and poignant answer to my review of the book. Your considerate response to my post is an example of why this forum is such a wonderful place. Thanks again!

Now, back to the book review!

Yes, yes, I concede the book did not claim Bodhidarma as a member, but you gave a better explanation of his connection to Mo-Pai than I found in the book. I think I could have inferred Bodhdidarma's indirect connection, but my interpretation of the way it was presented by Danaos was that he was implying a direct connection for the "name drop" value of Bodhidarma.

My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors. So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an action.

I think all of the so-called "extraordinary abilities" featured in the book are attainable and within the boundaries of human potential, not in a hypothetical sense, but in a real sense. I've never seen levitation, pyrogenesis, etc., but I've seen or experienced similarly "extraordinary" things first hand, enough to hopefully keep my mind open.

Excellent point about Sifu Wong's comments regarding the existence of "fairy tales." Sifu has talked about these kinds of things openly in his Q & A for years. Besides having deities do your bidding (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans04a/feb04-2.html) (Question 8), the walking through walls (http://shaolin.org/answers/ans98b/dec98-2.html) (Question 1) story stands out as a very interesting "extraordinary" ability.

I arrived in Guangzhou, China about 5 weeks ago. My purpose here is to learn Cantonese so I can communicate directly with my first qigong teacher, Ou Wen Wei (http://www.pangu.org/), who now lives in San Francisco, but does not speak English. I expect to be here four or five years, supporting myself by teaching English, and studying (outside of a classroom) to become fluent in the Cantonese dialect and in the Chinese written language. This area of China is where Master Ou grew up and where Cantonese is prevalent. Master Ou gives all of his lectures in Cantonese, which is one reason I wish to learn it instead of the more popular Mandarin (Putong-hua).

I recently attended the Intensive Kungfu Course in Malaysia with Sifu Wong, so I am now studying with him, albeit not in the normal "come to class twice a week" sense of things. Considering you live in the US, but are the student of a man who lives in Greece, you may be familiar with this system. I had very high expectations of the Intensive Kungfu Course (http://www.shaolin.org/general/kf-course.html), and they were all exceeded. For me, the primary emphsasis of Sifu's teaching begins with the spiritual aspect, and then flows downward to the energetic (qi) and finally the physical (jing) levels. At the Intensive Kungfu Course, I experienced the highest level teaching I have ever attended. I was specifically looking for a martial arts system that emphasized spiritual practice (many give lip service to "spirit", but don't deliver) and provided a methodical, systematic training program for developing actual combat skills using its martial arts practice. I found it. The fact that I don't have to attend classes in a fixed time and place every week is an advantage for me.

Sean, are you familiar with the documentary film Ring of Fire: An Indonesian Odyssey (http://www.mysticfire.com/index.html?cart=1116078372450886)? I expect you know it is what inspired Kosta Danaos to travel to Indonesia to find Sifu Chang. Have you ever seen the documentary, or read the companion book, Ring of Fire ISBN: 0892814306? This is perhaps my favorite documentary, and I watch a lot of films.

Nice talking to you!

Best,Michael Udelseandenty19th May 2005, 05:09 AMMichael,

I have to say Im also really impressed with the caliber of this forum and its users. I have to admit that Im more than a little jealous of your study in China. I have often dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual sciences hidden away in mountain retreats. When my son is a little older I may consider teaching English abroad. I teach middle school.

Yes, I own a copy of Ring of Fire. Its also one of my favorites.

I will have to politely disagree about the book. You are entitled to your opinion, but I will make a couple points.

My comments about the fight with the blind, evil warlord were not based on whether or not I believe in such abilities, but whether or not it made sense for someone who, after being blinded, was able to accelerate their training past the guy who blinded him based on the premise that with the power of hatred such a feat can be accomplished, and that such a person, consumed by hatred, would spare the life of anyone remotely in their way just because they offered him some tea. The plot line is certainly within the realm of possibilty, and the whims of an individual can be influenced by a variety of factors. So, yeah, sure, it's possible, but the narrative doesn't offer any support for such an action.

The warlord had trained to level 52. Liao was only at level 40 and not really a threat even if he wanted to be. Level 52 is a world away from level 40. The warlord (Lim) offered to spare Liaos life if he agreed not to interfere in the fight- the tea really didnt have anything to do with it. Despite their agreement, Liao does try to kill the warlord and is blasted threw the side of his house.

Pai Lok Nen played an active and vital roll as a protector of the people in the community in which he lived at the time. I think the fact that the warlord is able to catch up to Pai Sifu in, terms of his level of power, makes sense when we consider that this warlord had been training in quiet isolation over a ten year period while Sifu Pai was busy doing good deeds, healing, teaching and being active in his community. Case and point: John Chang does very little healing and has retired from teaching entirely; one of the main reason for this, from what Im told, is so he can train in the higher level practices. Sifu Chang, in his active healing days, served as the personal physician to the head of the Indonesian government. Hundreds of people would come to him daily for healing. Not to mention the fact that he oversees a thriving, million dollar international business.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with your teacher and Sifu Wong. I look forward to hearing more of your experiences on this forum.

Best, SeanMichael Udel19th May 2005, 06:18 AMSean,

I enjoyed discussing The Magus of Java with you. Thanks for your insights. I really do appreciate your reasonable nature in discussing a topic that has importance to you. It shows your good character.

I have often dreamed of visiting China or India and studying the ancient spiritual sciences hidden away in mountain retreats.

Who wouldn't, eh? I am extremely blessed to have found, completely by chance, three different teachers, all of them "World Class." Sifu Stier mentions the serendipity (http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2314&page=2&pp=10&highlight=serendipity) of each of his teachers finding him, not the other way 'round. In my case, I was not looking for a qigong teacher when I found Ou Wen Wei, I was urged to attend his lecture by a customer whom I'd helped in printing her flyers for said lecture; I was not looking for a kungfu teacher when I found Sifu's web site, but merely killing time between classes in the school library; and I was not searching for a teacher of Chinese Medicine, Taoist Qigong, or Tai-Chi Chuan when chance introduced me to Richard Peck, I was just looking for someone who could relieve my grandmother's neck pain. The story of how I finally found Richard Peck clearly illustrates the concept of the master finding the student only when the student is ready, but it's too lengthy to tell at the moment.

My three teachers have several things in common, one of them being they are all extremely generous men. Generous to a fault. I believe their generosity connects to another quality they have that I admire. My impression of each of them is that they don't believe in enshroudng their knowledge with secrets. Sifu posts valuable information on his web site so anyone interested can benefit. He could hoard all the knowledge for himself and a few chosen disciples, but he doesn't. My other two teachers have the same attitude that knowledge is to be shared among as many people as possible (who could reasonably be expected to benefit).

Teachers, especially good ones, can do whatever they think best, but I believe the time for secrets is over. There are serious side-effects to secretive behavior, even when done out of necessity. Hide the teaching far enough out of reach, literally and/or figuratively, and the side-effect is the art is lost forever!

MichaelRay19th May 2005, 09:50 AMDear friends,I have never read "Magus of Java" but I would like to know what is the ultimate goal of a member of the Mo Pai? (Mo Tzu is pretty interesting, too bad my classical chinese needs some work :o ) Also, does John Chang have a family? If so, are they okay with him practicing such advanced spiritual techniques that require isolation?

Best,

Divineshadowseandenty19th May 2005, 04:12 PMMichael,

Im in agreement with you on the whole sharing thing. Sounds like youve been very fortunate to find some great teachers. Looks like youre a student of Pan Gu Shengong. Ive studied a little Pan Gu with one of my old teachers- very interesting story behind that system.

Divineshadow,

All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu school. The ultimate goal, I would imagine, is as varied as the students of the Mo Pai. Who knows what motivates men; power, greed, spiritual longing, passion, love; probably a combination of all of the above. Lets face it we are complex beings. If pressed, I would have to say enlightenment is the ultimate goal. I believe there is, in all of us, a deep, intrinsic need to find the truth (another word for enlightenment) of our being. This is just my opinion.

Yes, John Chang has seven children! Im sure they made some sacrifices, but, to the best of my knowledge, John Chang was pretty much financially set for life before he begin practicing in isolation for long periods of time. This enabled his family to live comfortably while he was away. I have one son and he keeps me pretty busy, so I have no idea how Sifu Chang accomplished what he has with seven kids.

Peace, SeanRay19th May 2005, 11:09 PM[Divineshadow,

All your questions are answered in the book. The Mo Pai is first and foremost a Kung fu school. [/QUOTE]

Thank you Sean,Although this may be answered in the book considering where I am (China), I have access to resources right now that I may not have again for some time.

Can you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may have a big impact on my research)and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it teaches with a self defense slant as well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas?

Thanks again,

DivineshadowMichael Udel20th May 2005, 12:29 AMSean,

Yes, Pan Gu Shengong has an interesting background. Master Ou is one of a few people in history to make an ostensibly credible claim for such a longlasting conversation with the creator of the universe. Master Ou says that since his first introduction to Pan Gu while he was imprisoned during the Cultural Revolution in late 1974, Pan Gu has been continuously showing him "movies" inside his mind nearly (or perhaps completely, depending on the interpreter) non-stop, even during sleep.

My desire to learn more from Master Ou has brought me to what I expect to be a multi-year sojourn in China. Whenever I'm around Master Ou and the interpreter is willing, I have experiences like the following:

Living near Dallas,Texas (USA), I was giving long distance qi healing to a classmate about 50 miles from my home, and stopped the pain in her wrist in 15 minutes where other therapists, including an excellent acupuncturist, had failed to reduce it at all. Her wrist hurt so much she was going to see an MD about surgery. After the wrist, she mentioned another ailment, so I continued sending her qi every day for a month. Toward the end of our sessions, she mentioned a friend in Colorado, without giving her name, and said that she was due to give birth, but the baby was turned the wrong way, and asked if I would help. I said I would help, but that a condition like this was so potentially serious it would be better if Master Ou helped. I told her I would inquire about it.

I spoke to Master Ou's interpreter in San Francisco, where Master Ou lives, to ask if he would help, and then waited for the response. It was Thursday. Saturday, I talked to my classmate, and she told me not to bother with Master Ou's assistance because an examination Friday revealed the baby had turned. The examination was prompted by the mother, who on Thursday evening felt the sudden turning of the baby, and went in for an exam the next day.

Later, Saturday night, Master Ou's interpreter contacted me and said that he already took care of the problem. I didn't know it before that event, but Master Ou can/could link from my mind to my classmate, whom I'd not named, and from my classmate's mind to her pregnant friend in Colorado, whom I didn't know in the slightest, and then turn the baby in her womb remotely from San Francisco.

There have been many such events, and other reasons from my personal experience to give credence to Master Ou when he talks about Pan Gu showing him movies in his mind continuously for 31 years. Strange, but true!

Michaelseandenty20th May 2005, 03:55 PMMichael,

That's so cool. What a great story. Any literature out there on Pan Gu Shengong? Master Ou ever come to the States?seandenty21st May 2005, 02:36 AMCan you tell me when the Mo Pai sect was developed (if it really is Mo pai then this may have a big impact on my research) and who developed it, also if it is a kung fu school it teaches with a self defense slant as well, are their animal forms or yogic asanas?

The Mo Pai was founded by Mo Tzu (Mo Ti) which means Mr. Tattoo. He was born in 469 B.C.. As for animals and yoga, could be, but not to my knowledge. Of Course there's at lot a don't know.

Best of luck in your research, SeanMichael Udel21st May 2005, 02:40 AMSean,

A Chinese citizen from Guangzhou, Master Ou has been residing in the US since 1999, and has an office in downtown San Francisco, California, USA. He lives in one of the nearby suburbs in the Bay Area. He travels regularly in the USA to Portland, Oregon; Boston, Massachusetts; New York City; Honolulu, Hawaii; and Flordia. Outside the US, he regularly travels to the Bahamas, Hong Kong, Indonesia, and Malaysia. It is quite common for students, even new students, to visit Master Ou in his home for instruction or qi healing if it is more convenient for them to go there than into downtown San Francisco. Anyone familiar with the traffic on the Bay Bridge can understand the reason.

Two of his books have been published in English. You can get some information on them here (http://www.pangu.org/InEnglish/Books/BooksHome.htm). It seems a lot quicker to get the book from Master Ou's secretary than ordering on Amazon.com, which often takes weeks due to the fact that when they get a request for a book online, they e-mail Master Ou's secretary to send a book to their warehouse, where they then send it to the online customer. Not very efficient.

Just an FYI. I re-read my post and want to clarify that when Master Ou turned the baby, it was not telekinesis. The primary effect of qigong is to strengthen the life force, improve physiological function, and improve the immune system. Since I am nowhere near Master Ou's ability level, I don't know exactly how he does it, but he turned the baby by sending qi to the mother and guiding the qi to do what it is normally supposed to do in a healthy person, allowing the baby to turn by overcoming whatever qi blockage or diminished physiological function had prevented it from having the proper head-first orientation in the womb.

Because of the language barrier: I do not yet speak Chinese and Master Ou does not speak English, I have learned about Pan Gu Shengong with very little direct contact with Master Ou. Because the power of Pan Gu Shengong comes from the philosophy of kindness and benevolence, the benefit from the qigong comes from improving one's understanding of this philosophy. Reading Master Ou's books, articles, and lectures is one way to improve the understanding of kindness and benevolence.

Sean, if you are looking for a teacher and method for advancement, both Shaolin Cosmos Chi-Kung and Pan Gu Shengong are excellent. I value and practice both, and both can provide great benefits with relatively minimal face-to-face contact with the teacher. The reason so little face-to-face contact with the teacher is possible is that the teachers have refined their method away from traditional class attendance to allow more students to benefit.

Michaelmopai22nd May 2005, 10:13 AMHi,I've been practicing meditation for some period.I did it regularly until one day, I felt a strange sensation.My lower belly, approx at dan tian point, jerked uncontrollably.And after that time on, the shaking comes quiteoften.It shakes very hard and moves my body and torso, too.It scares me a bit.But I ignore it and keep meditating everyday.Have anyone of you experienced the same sensation as mine ?Any advices ?Thanksbeggarsu21st June 2005, 08:41 AMWhat does Mo Pai translate to? Because from stories about the immortals I've read, I've always been under the impression chan san feng learned from The Fire Dragon of Dragon Gate Sect, and thus under that lineage.beggarsu21st June 2005, 09:29 AMmopai, yes, this is a normal development to not be afraid of. It is refered to sometimes as "starting the fire". This is common in babies. Your body is just realizing again that the dan tian is the source of life, as opposed to the "air breathing" you have become conditioned to in after-child life. It is good to not pay particular attention to it and just continue enjoying your meditation. It is a good development sign, as most people pick up the skill of filling the dan tian when they do stance training, whereas you got it from (i'm assuming) sitting meditation (?).mopai22nd June 2005, 10:14 AMhello beggarsu,Yes, I got the sensation merely from sitting meditation.But a guy told me to ignore and change the concentration object to eliminate this shaking.He was right, and since then I didnt feel it again.If I'm not mistaken, mo pai mean mo from mo zi (or mr tatto) and pai (sect/clan).You can find in the internet about mo zi. :)iansanityy24th July 2005, 05:56 AMHey mopai, you said earlier that you have actually met John and seen him heal? Could you give me any information regarding his location in indonesia, I'm planning to go there and find him.Antonius24th July 2005, 11:16 AMAnyone thinking about going to see Sifu John Chang should read this thread:

http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3498ivan123rd September 2005, 05:16 PMAfter reading some comments on page 1 and 2 and seeing texts in the book such as.Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals with yang.Qi gong deals with both energies, dealing with one will produce imbalance in the other. How could the author make a statement like this is beyond my reason.

This sounds like this book is coming from someone that doesn't know what he is saying. The highest forms of cultivation transend duality :eek:And by reading the reviews that people say this book is written on what was observed but not written from the writers personal experiance.

Can anyone post some of the reason behind this. As I had heard many stories of great masters, such as a master making a cooked chicken appear in a students jacket because they were training and the student was hungry.beggarsu24th September 2005, 08:41 AMHello ivan1,

Nei kung is higher then chi kung because it deals with yin and yang. while qi gong deals with yang.

My guess as to what the Master might have meant would be the difference between kinds of Qigong. My Master says that when you feel the energy when you do Qigong, this is the yang energy, then use the yin energy (a gentle visualization) to do high level qigong. I've seen this described in Qigong books as the difference (although it can be arbitrary) between quiescent and dynamic Qigong.ivan125th September 2005, 07:31 PMInteresting, Beggarsu I know you have much more qi familiarty then me, but from what I have read.Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold.But then I also have high vibration sensations and when I use palm diagnostic on my dog and go over his aura i can feel a strange strong windy sensation.Anyone comment?beggarsu25th September 2005, 11:09 PMDear ivan1,

Yang is usauly felt as warmth, and yin as cool or cold.

I believe that when things are classified into Yin and Yang, Yin and Yangcan still be applied to classify other things. Like it is true that many classifyChi Feeling into yang feelings like warm and yin feelings like cold. But Ithink the Yin and Yang classification in your earlier posts was meant toclassify Qigong Types such as Yang types like Dynamic Qigong and Yintypes like Quiescent Qigong.ivan126th September 2005, 01:48 AMI just said this is basics I know. Just like they teach you in school, and someone tries to explain much higher stuff to you. You just dont understand. But I am open minded and as my awarness grows so will my knowledge.darkrider23rd May 2006, 09:40 PMam just me at the moment, i have no title, no offering.

i come with empty hands, should you ask anything of me, i will answer all i can, sincerest greetings, i have many questions burning within me, so please forgive that.

hello to all as well) so, is this really true, has sifu john chang really retired?can others still find him and become students or be healed as before?....-humbly, darkriderdarkrider24th May 2006, 05:11 PM(please respond to the last one mopai) was sifu andreas, the one in the book, here? could someone tell him that i want to speak to him?-humbly, darkriderAntonius24th May 2006, 05:41 PMDarkrider,

Sifu John Chang has retired, and is no longer taking students. "Mopai" has not posted on our forum in over a year. I don't think you are likely to get a response.

Best,darkrider24th May 2006, 10:12 PMi read a far off post of yours antonius. and i understand more now. tell me though. will he direct you to a senior student if you ask?-darkriderAntonius24th May 2006, 10:20 PMDear Darkrider,

I had some email correspondences with Sifu Andreas years ago, but I have not heard from him in a long time. At one point, he had a website, but I do not know if he is still teaching. You can try to find his website. But I would give up hope of contacting Sifu Chang directly.

Best,darkrider25th May 2006, 05:54 PMif only i had known about everything years ago.....sifu andreas....i pray he hasent given up.........i meant about sifu john chang though, would you be directed to a higher-up student if you asked?he hasent moved, has he? hes still where kosta was directed to find him right?lastly..why would you give up hope? all others who do only get turned away...-(wheww)darkriderAntonius25th May 2006, 06:15 PMDear Darkrider,

Sifu Chang wants his privacy, and I for one respect his right to that privacy. I do not know his current location, but as I understand it, he is intentionally difficult to find. Even if you managed to find the town where he is living, you would never get a chance to meet him.

I recommend that you either find Sifu Andreas, or find another teacher. There are others out there, if you know where to look.

Best,darkrider25th May 2006, 07:05 PMi agree, and respect that privacy too. but if we are destined by the winds of

heaven to go where we are, it is so. the game...has definitly moved since that

book was made...the easy way to play has been changed to a harder version...the chess pieces have been shifted...knocked

off...whatever.....but the goal remains the same, no?

one question for you. why arent you going to him? it is true, so many will not

clear the gate, but so many will as well.

for now, as it has been for years since ive been alive again, theres always a chance to move your player back to the beggining, and move it to the end, or the beggining? let the game, begin.

-respect to all, darkriderAntonius25th May 2006, 07:13 PMWhy would I go to Sifu Chang when I've already found a high-level master?

"Why seek treasure outside when you have priceless jade at home?"darkrider25th May 2006, 07:24 PMhey! is anyone else reading this, or is just no one there? comments and getting involved(mabey) would be nice!!darkrider25th May 2006, 07:33 PMthe reason im here....the reason we're talking.....its because...my whole

life...ive searched for something, something more. ive always wanted to be a

warrior, every miserable day of my life, waiting to find that thing, an end to

the bleakness. this is the only real way to become one, you see. and here it

is. ive finally found it. the jade you so speak of is not in me. it is far away.i

speak the truth and tell no lies. it is not easy either to just sum up all this in

words either. nothing, i promise you to the sky, matters to me more than

this. ive been shredded my whole life, incomplete, with this though...i can

become whole, at last. and...i can help others...like me too..so they wont

have to go through what i went through ever again. -peace to all, darkriderTapio Raevaara25th May 2006, 07:37 PMOf course we are reading! :)

So, what I think? If Sifu Chang does not wish to be found (for whatever reason), we should respect his decision and not even try to seek him out. Trying to get in touch with him would be a poor use of time, it would be better spent trying to find another, willing master.

Best Regards,TapioAntonius25th May 2006, 07:39 PMThe jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open your eyes.darkrider25th May 2006, 07:44 PMi have, antonius. and i see where it is. i was so blind to it for so long.-dTapio Raevaara25th May 2006, 07:47 PMOld Chinese proverb (I think):

When a student is ready, a teacher appears.darkrider25th May 2006, 07:51 PMi dont know if the teacher is ready to appear.....but i am ready. ive been for years, and id give up anything, or anyone, just to be a student.(nice proverb)d

from the heart, and soul, and body, anything....anything for this*Tapio Raevaara25th May 2006, 08:19 PMI once thought for a long time that I'm ready. Teacher didn't appear, although it was a close call. A year later I finally found my teacher and realized, that previously I wasn't as ready as I thought. Obiously, I am not you, and I can only speak from my experience.

I'm sorry to hear your life is miserable. But just like you think you're ready while you actually may not be, your life may not be as miserable as you think. Perhaps it's your clinging to your misery which makes it so. You can make your life better even without a teacher, and you can start by smiling. :) Forget your misery for a while - when you remember it again, you may find it's not there anymore.

There are lots of jades around, but you're not going to see them, if you keep your eyes fixed on a single one - which seems to be out of your reach, behind a bulletproof glass.

Things have a way of sorting themselves out. I think it's best just to enjoy the ride, there are always good things ahead. :)

Best Wishes,Tapiodarkrider25th May 2006, 08:36 PMthat is almost true. that would be nice....to be blissfully unaware of this...but...i can not give up...as long as i hear the children cry!Charles David25th May 2006, 11:52 PMDear Dark Rider,

We have a good deal of Taoist influence in our school, so when Anthony says:

The jade may not be inside you, but it is closer than you think. You just need to open your eyes. you may not be able to interpret his words quite correctly, mildly arcane as they are.

Being a Shaolin Kung Fu school, we also treasure simple, direct and effective speech. Allow me to interpret his "Taoist" words into "Zen" words:

Our own teacher, Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, is a extraordinarily gifted teacher and healer, as are many of the Instructors in our school. You might consider looking around this forum and its related websites and decide if we might not be able to offer you what you are looking for.

I was once in a situation like yours, so I understand your words well enough.

Still Human,darkrider26th May 2006, 08:25 PMas i said. words alone are not enough to say what is.words are hollow,

never showing what we feel, which is as loud vast and clear as an ocean.darkrider26th May 2006, 09:14 PMon that note, this is more than about me. this is about others, who's lives are litterally in a box in living hell every minute, who will never see the light of day, and no one, not no good person but me knows that this is happenning to them. the situation as it is is bigger than that.barrys26th May 2006, 09:20 PMDarkrider,

I spent years "knowing" there was something terribly wrong. When I managed to trust that there was no mythical perfection everything started to look better. Before it happened, when anyone told me that was what I needed to do, I didn't believe it, it made me frightened and angry.

You are searching. It's being suggested to you that you are here. Take the opportunity. What's the worst that could happen? You meet a bunch of nice people and nothing changes. :)

Welcome,

Barrydarkrider26th May 2006, 09:39 PMi appreciate your experiences in life, especially as you are my senior. buti feel no anger, and i feel no fear,only a great tiredness from walking life again , and, like i said, this is big. so big, a person who has a positive look on life would hurl his guts if he knew what i knew.

take heed everyone, there is a great ugliness in our world. i must do this to stop it, even if i have to scrape after where im going.really.-i bow to you in the center of this gathering,darkriderbarrys26th May 2006, 11:39 PMDarkrider,

Peace and blessings.

With a warm heart,

BarryHugoDarien28th May 2006, 12:58 PMHi!

Darkrider!Here I meet a instructor that he said is the only one that teach Wang Liping teach and I guess he have learn from the teacher of Magnus of Java!

Hes named is: Shen David ! But note he dont want to be contact only on this imail: qigongresearch@hotmail.com

See

Regards Hugodarkrider28th May 2006, 10:59 PM^ ^ ^ right right, you have your eye on the ball hugo:)

how would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty)darkrider28th May 2006, 11:02 PM*bow* good karma your way for all eternity barrys. my path is going to be brutal, im glad your life is a peacful one-respectfully, darkriderHugoDarien29th May 2006, 08:32 AMhow would i contact him if he doesent want to be contacted only by mail?(tyty)

yes you can contact him on that email!

He only don't wanted to be contact on the other email that you can read in the Internet! Contact him on that imail he knows many good high masters and yes I belive he said to me for a week ago that he have trained whit the Master of the Magnus of Java many years! But don't be surprise if the fee are high I belive he told me that 1 day coast 100 dollars or 1000 dollars I don't remember well!

I belive this is the best person you can contact!

I found many names of many Masters on this school: Universal Tao of Chi Nei Tsang right now I don't have time to found the list but I hope you do!PS I just didn't have much time like now!

Regards~Hugodarkrider30th May 2006, 08:28 PMwhat do guys think of this?(who havent spoken) you know, no matter what, were all in this together, and this is so larger than large, that you must have some feelings on this? any women here think anything?-respectfully, darkriderCharles David30th May 2006, 08:37 PMWhat do we think of what, exactly?

Inquiringly,darkrider30th May 2006, 08:46 PMwell, everything. neikung, the people who do it, the struggle for everone once they make it to make it out alive so to speak. feels like the 1930's or something..... you feel?- really, darkriderbeggarsu30th May 2006, 09:08 PMHello darkrider :) ,

I personally agree with what some Shaolin Wahnam instructors have said in someof their replies to you. I think you are overworrying a bit, perhaps try locatinganother teacher. Certainly you should respect Sifu Chang's wishes and not seek himout. Although genuine masters are rare today and the past, you can find one if youseek earnestly. For example, if the conditions under which he took the vow haven'tchanged, Swami Yogananda mentions in his book "Autobiography Of a Yogi" that thegreat Saint, Mahavatara Babji, has been alive for millenia, and is still therephysically to this day on the Himalayas! There are also pictures of Saints likeSwami Trailanga, who are said to be very old such as 300 years, in the late 1800s,and records of them being around in the 1600s! I'd have to give the same answer thatSifu Anthony gave as to why I am not so worried and trying to seek out Sifu Chang orother masters, as I train currently with a master under whom I have seen andexperienced things beyond anything I was familiar with before, and under who'setraining I obtain countless and uncomparable benefits. I would advise you to calmdown for awhile and enjoy life some while keeping on the lookout for other mastersor trying to properly and patiently arrange with a *willing* high level masterproper meetings.

kind thoughts ,Aarondarkrider30th May 2006, 09:30 PMi appreciate your thoughts, i really do, but im really not worrying like your saying. its just that ive been searching for this my whole life, and now the conditions on the chess board have changed. its very stressful, as well as stressful leading this sardonic and boring thing that other people call ''life''(people who live around me) ive been so to speak, in a box my whole life.all i want to do is do this thing ive searched for my WHOLE life, and start living!:) i know there are such immortals out there that have lived that long(even evil) but baby steps. not everybody can just approach a millenia age immortal and start yapping.

appreciate your ideas alot, darkriderAlexBaranosky30th May 2006, 09:38 PMDarkrider!

Welsome to our humble forum. I am not exactly sure what it is you want to know. What is it that you need? What is (are) your aim(s)?

I am certain that Master Chang is not the sole holder of truth. I am sure there is someone else who can help you.

All the Best,

Alexdarkrider30th May 2006, 09:45 PMwell you make a hard argument there.

besides what i want, one of my aims, is to stop others from suffering as i did all these years, and to help yet others along the path im going, i will, and dont just tell me, ''if you really want to help, go join the firemen''r something.

please dont make me out as a big person, i am just as humble as you, and i only want to be included, not excluded. thats one of the points of martial arts isnt it?

but what are your goals? your aims? ?

-very respectfully, darkriderAlexBaranosky30th May 2006, 10:38 PMDarkrider,

Helping others is good. I don't think you should be a firmean, that is one crazy job! But one thing I noticed in life is that you have to help yourself before you can be of much help to those around you. You may already know this, of course...

I don't think anyone is not including you, and I didn't mean to say you weren't humble. I just liked the sound of "our humble school" to be honest.

You have made repeated references to terrible things that have happened or do happen. This is true, terrible things do happen and it is a shame. From my experience and of those I know and care about, you have to find a way to let go of them and to steadily but surely brush yourself off and move on to a new life of radiance, self-respect, hope, and progress. One way to start doing that is just to Smile.

but what are your goals? your aims? ?I want to be happy, healthy, at peace/content, to understand and be wise. And then to help others do all those things once I am firmly doing so myself.

All the Best,

AlexCharles David31st May 2006, 03:22 AMDear Darkrider,

To answer your question:what do you think about...everythingI think everything is wonderful

Regarding your second questionwhat do you tink about neikung and the people who practice it

I would say that I absolutely love practicing chi kung and I am not able to convey how much learning this art has changed my life. The other people I have met who practice genuine high level chi kung have been the most beautiful and inspiring people I have ever met.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

With Shaolin Salute,darkrider31st May 2006, 07:20 PMto truly say what im feeling, and this is what im feeling, open this link. i mean it.

http://us.share.geocities.com/bende_man/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3darkrider31st May 2006, 09:31 PMokay, okay, try this one (sorry)

http://us.share.geocities.com/guardian_shadows/Carl_Douglas_Kung_Fu_Fighting.mp3AlexBaranosky31st May 2006, 09:46 PMDude!

That one doesn't work either!barrys31st May 2006, 09:54 PMI love that song :) . My daughter and I do a mean duet of it in the car :) .

Not quite sure where you are going with that though.

Still, best wishes,

Barrymark v31st May 2006, 10:14 PMDear Darkrider,

What will happen when you find this master.Did lord Buddha and lord Jesus, not teach us enough to change ourselfs and help us to heal the world.

If you can not find what you are looking for in there teachings.You may have a problem. For there are no higher Masters.

I wish you good luck on your quest,

Seek and ye shall find....AlexBaranosky31st May 2006, 10:22 PMWhat does the song "Kung-Fu Fighting" have to do with anything?darkrider1st June 2006, 02:46 AMaha! so it did work!!-nya ha ha, darkriderdarkrider1st June 2006, 08:19 PMsigh..............try this one all.

okay, go to this site, and click on ''hear my voice''. it should work.

http://profiles.yahoo.com/tinoandsteve

i wish i could hear it barrys :)AlexBaranosky1st June 2006, 09:06 PMIf you're having trouble hearing that song "Kungfu Fighting" then click on this link. **LINK** (http://www.myspace.com/12840351)

It's my myspace page which just happens to have that song playing. (and it's been that way for a couple weeks, there are NO COINCIDENCES I TELL YA!)...darkrider2nd June 2006, 01:20 AMwhat does that mean? ''there are no coincidences i tell ya''? ?AlexBaranosky2nd June 2006, 04:00 AMIt means that I happened to have Kungfu Fighting as my song on Myspace.darkrider2nd June 2006, 04:16 AM;) ah, i see, therefore, it isHugoDarien2nd June 2006, 01:13 PMDear darkrider do you contacted Sifu: Shen David :confused:darkrider2nd June 2006, 05:41 PMi have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused:

i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:)HugoDarien5th June 2006, 11:18 AMi have not gotten that far yet hugo-shen david?:confused:

Why not darkrider?

i like writing words like that too, but it confusing:)

not at all!

:cool:darkrider6th June 2006, 03:25 AMwait wait wait, please refraise all that. starting from your last message, because i have no idea what you said at all, except for the thank you part.-respectfully, darkriderAntonius6th June 2006, 03:33 AMOkay folks, what does any of this have to do with "The Magus of Java"? Please stick to the topic, or take the conversation to private messages, or to another thread.

Thanks.darkrider6th June 2006, 07:52 PM:D i know i know, i was waiting for the hugos next response then i was going to ask somebody to start talking again.(this was starting to be really funny to me) i have news by the way, hugo and everyone.-darkrider :Ddarkrider6th June 2006, 08:04 PMi coudent wait for the next reply of somebody.

i have talked with sifu shen, and the news is not very good.

kosta, was forbidden to do the mo pai training. and though this was said, he had students, who could not pass level 1.

sifu andreas,though a good man, is still struggling to get past level 2 as we speak.

as far as i can see, kostas only destiny in this was to bring the word to other places, not to suceed. what a shame........

there is much discord in the mo-pai, since the highest leader is half retiring, half not, and thus is not teaching the students 100% of the time.

but lo and ho, there are many other paths people, so where this door shuts, there are more to walk through. dont give up.

-more later, darkriderHugoDarien7th June 2006, 08:20 AMThanks Darkrider For Talking Whit Sifu Shen!:)Tu Le7th June 2006, 10:24 AMHi there darkrider,

Could you answer this please? I thought that both Master Kosta and Master Andreas are currently still mopai members but was only allowed to pass their current level because of a certain incident in 2004. Could you please confirm this?

Thanks. Tu Le.Tu Le7th June 2006, 10:31 AMOne more question, sorry to bother you. Is Master Kosta level 3 or 4? Note: level 5 is fusing yin and yang (from a Mopai student).darkrider7th June 2006, 05:41 PMwhat i said tu le was what sifu shen told me. i sensed discoured in the mo-pai, and he seemed to confirm it. beware though. the only problem with the written word is that anyone can say what they want. this could very well be being used to dicourage anyone in the u.s. from going to the mo-pai. what i said could be true, or kosta and andreas could be at a slowly climbing level. so many things though will happen that ill never know because im here. im sorry i cant confirm it. remember though people, look for the other doors. knocking at only one will not work all the time.-anything else?-darkrider

(no problem asking questions by the way tu le)darkrider7th June 2006, 06:50 PMmy dad once said, oh yeah, kosta got past level four'', when i asked him long ago if kosta ever made it. well, i dont know any more. he says he did, sifu shen says he dident, now you say he did. i really dont know anymore. it appears as though either master sifu john chang stopped teaching him, or this is intentionally being said to discourage. you have to have a very strong will for this........darkrider7th June 2006, 06:52 PM:) your very welcome hugo. it was a pleasure doing it, and some should know whats going on.:)HugoDarien8th June 2006, 11:15 AMTHANK YOU! ;) I hope someday you find your teacher! :)darkrider8th June 2006, 03:35 PMpeace forever, hugo. domo, domo, domo:)

and thank you:)Tu Le9th June 2006, 07:35 PMDarkrider,Hugo,

Man, you are blessed with good karma to have the contacts of all these masters. The "will of heaven" or Jodo must be in your favour. Hopefully, you will train under a good one.

Darkrider,

Did Sifu Shen tell you what level he was?

Have you had any experience in his abilities? Did he elaborate to you on his experiences in the Mopai?darkrider9th June 2006, 07:43 PM:o

ive apologized so many times to heaven for all the bad things ive done

after reading the magus of java second time, i felt enlightment, at last i had found god,

once and for all, and at last, i knew that i had to be responsible for my

actions, because judgement existed......before...i almost turned evil....the

only thing keeping me from going that far was freinds gone, who i dident

want to forget.......and since then, ive tried to turn my actions all the way

around. i even apologized to the master for everything i had done wrong and

evil, everthing in one sentence. im honored by you tu le-praise the good, god help the damned, humbleddarkrider9th June 2006, 07:48 PMhe hasent told me yet though what level he is or anything. but hes been

studyin nei-kung for over 15 years, and hes an archeologist. im too humbled in

his presence and unaquianted to ask that yet. i feel its something

special, like invading his private space for now. he has told me that

he met many masters, including, god bless him, master john chang.-peace, darkriderHugoDarien16th June 2006, 02:34 PMThanks: Darkrider and Tu Le for your words!:)

Night ! :rolleyes:Jak17th June 2006, 11:22 AMWell....I enjoyed the various responses to the Mo=Pai sect. Has anyone spoken to any senior students of Wang Li Ping? It appears that besides the book - Opening the Dragon Gate - there has been virtually nothing in relation to the group.

Whats the deal?

Thanks,

Jak

ps I sent an e to Sifu Wong Kiew Kit and haven't gotten a reply - yet.HugoDarien19th June 2006, 11:00 AMGood Day! Jak :)

As I longer know: Sifu: Shen told me that he are the only one certified instructor or teacher that have learn from Sifu: Wang Liping and that he, Sifu Shen are the only one that are certified to teach in all the part of the worlds there Wang Liping don't teach( outside China I believe)!

He told me that the only way to be contact whit Sifu: Wang Liping is to at least learn few days from him, and then you may could see or talk to Wang Liping, Sifu: Shen have many photos of Master: Wang Liping but he didn't want or can show those to the public! except to the ones that are practicing Master: Wang Liping Chi Kung etc!

I hope this may be a help to you! Hey you can contact and ask Sifu: Shen for your self!

Regards ~

HugoJak19th June 2006, 08:58 PMHugo:

Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it. I would like to speak or email Sifu Shen if possible. It's interesting that Sifu Liping is no longer teaching or if he is..his students are difficult to find.

How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately?

Anyway....thanks again for the feedback.

JakHugoDarien20th June 2006, 12:26 PMHugo:Hi! Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate it.Good Day amiable good beautiful healthful immense in love friend of pure heart Jak! hey is always good for good in fact to hear from you such kind of words something that I hear almost never!

How do you know this Sifu Shen? Does he have a website or does he teach privately?Jak

When I had read the Book: open The Dragon Gate I was interesting in find some teacher or Wang Liping itself on the Internet!

But of all the Sifu's I ask about Wang Liping only Sifu Shen answer me! The first page I found about Sifu Shen and that I saw his email was this ( this email that are on this Homepage- tajendavid@hotmail.com he said is only for students so he give me this other Email: qigongresearch@hotmail.com that any one can ask him about any thing about Chi and Masters!

http://mantak-chia-universal-tao.com/instructors_practitioners/table/table_cntp1.html

More information about him you can find here:

http://www.tao-garden.com/Inst/InfoInst.php?typeID=509

I believe the only Homepage about him and others masters are this:

http://www.universal-tao.com/

Regards ~Hugo :) :p3rdlevelMoPai10th August 2006, 01:38 AMHello to all those interestedI just came across this site and read much of the past comments since 2002!Just wanted to let all those interested in Mo Pai/Nai Gong to know that Kosta and Andreas have sent you off into two entirely different directions.

What I mean by that is Kosta was considered by John Chang to be unworthy because of his book. You see, it wasn't what John wanted or expected. So, around 2000 John said he wouldn't continue teaching Kosta, and he is no longer considered a student, even though he made it out that he was. Andreas keeps telling eveyone that John Chang has retired, but this isn't true. And I might add that the truth doesn't hurt to be told, even here.

I felt it is important for people to know the reality of this aspect of Mo Pai and John. Andreas is known for his "secretive" nature. He likes to make things appear to be mysterous than they really need to be. The truth is, John was forced to "retire" because he was told by "his spirit master" (two before his immediate teacher) that he could not be Mo Pai's master any longer because he allowed non-Chinese into the school. You see, John made a promise to his teacher NOT to teach non-Chinese...and he broke his promise on three different times: Kosta, Andreas and me. This is the real reason why he has retired from the leadership of Mo Pai.

Yes, I am the first ever Westerner to be excepted into Mo Pai back in November 1990! Pak John was surprised to have an American on his door step asking to be a student. It was in June, 2000 that I finally reached the 3rd/2B level. While my teacher Pak John is no longer my teacher I am still practicing daily.

It was sometime in 1994-5 I believe when Kosta came to find Pak John. (John Chang isn't he real name, but a name to make it harder for people to find him) The word "Pak" is used as a respectful expression of endearment toward my teacher, it loosely means father. I still refer to him using this. It was in 1996 that Andreas started calling Pak John, sher-fu. But prior to that time Pak John never knew or was called that. He simply told me to refer to him as John.

In Kosta's book of course are going to be a few language problems, I had them all the time when I was with Pak John. However, Pak John was a little problematic...I found he "changed" his stories. To hear his talk early in the 1990's, and then to hear them through Kosta's eyes/ears was strange to me. While John means well, I believe he is something of a man that needs attention and gets it. That is why he allowed the first documentary to be done...and he wasn't happy with that either. In 1996 when Lawrence Blair came to make another documentary only about John, it turned out to be just another mishap and John was unhappy. It seems it didn't feature him in what he was expecting, just like Kosta's book. It was supposed to be strickly and only about John, but it was mostly about Kosta. As intelligent as he thinks he is, he never understood this aspect with John. Kosta isn't and never will become a 4th level, he is "still" only a second level.

He maybe something else in another school however. It seems likely he found another teacher because he is a determined person. It literally takes years to advance, I've been at it since 1990 and am only at the third level. I am/was Pak Johns most dedicated student. All his other 3rd level students couldn't perform at a demonstration for third level students. He was severly dissapointed and told me so. All of them failed when they were supposed to push a chop stick threw a piece of board. I can say that all the things Kosta said about Pak John's abilities are completely true. Lawrence Blair's second documentary included my testing whenI was shot and moved boxes from a distance, etc.

However, Kosta got it wrong on many things, people don't die from incorrect third level training. He also didn't realize that only dedicated students Pak John liked would test them at ten times their arm length...Kosta said two other students were tested at five. This is because he knows who is truly a dedicated student. He also mentioned that his pellet didn't get smashed when he was shot, it was because low level students don't get the rifle pumped up as much as when a higher student performs. My pellets were literally smashed. I had to laugh at his concepts why his wasn't. I guess he likes to over-intellectualize eveything...didn't you get that impression from his book?

Also, Pak John didn't have to hold me or touch me when I was shot, at the third level your Dan Tien is full, whereas as level two it isn't. By-the-way, Andreas, isn't Pak John's spoksman, John is old enough to communicate to others how and what he feels. It is just a quirk of behavioral nature that some people like to make others think they are more special than they are, and Andy is just such a guy. I know for a fact that he very seldom trained. Even when I spoke to him on the phone, he was impressed at how much time I trained...it was becasue he didn't train. Even Pak John knew this and didn't give him any more to do way before his retirement.

When I was in Indonesia with John, Andy was there with his dad, who I really liked. He was more interested in chasing those beautiful little Indonesian ladies, not to mention that he is a heavy, heavy beer drinker. So, when he was there he wasn't real interested in training from my perspective. So, when he talks he does know a lot about what he is talking about, but as a student of Mo Pai, he really isn't one; he just talks a big story!

When I first met John he was treating a guy from California who had been in car accident some years ago and lost the use of his legs. He went to see if John could help him, he also had this attitude of protecting John too as if he was his protector also. One of Pak John's longest and closet friends, Henky isn't this way. So this means that what John wants is somehow turned around by Andy. Both these two guys act as though they are "still" his students as he is retiring. This just couldn't be further from the truth. Andy was asked by Pak John to make a copy of something he wanted me to see, it took Andy three years to finally send it to me, but only after I emailed him and called him so many times. As much as I wanted to help Andy he didn't like or want to help me. I neively considered him a brother student, but he seldom if ever would keep up his friendship with me. I even went to Brisbane to see him and his father, an act of friendship that was never returned. He continued to remain alusive and vague. When I asked him about our teacher's teachers, he gave me different names to try and throw me off. Pak John finally gave them to me and this is when I finally realized that Andy was in a different ball park than I.

After, so many years of visiting Pak John, in Indonesia, and Santa Clara, California where his daughter and Son-in-law live. I have much to tell and have seen much. And much of what Kosta said about John's abilities are very real, you would be very ignorant not to believ