CORE Chapter 2

LORRAINE ROY

Interview 0211-1Lorraine RoyWhite, Female

Side 1 & 2Baton Rouge, La.4 weeksCORE Summer Volunteer

Qs Why don't we start with a few simple things, like, whoyou are, how old you are, where you come from?

As My whole name is Lorraine Roy, and I was born in Boston,Massachusetts, and 1 was brought up in Connecticut, and nowI'm from Pittsburg. I'm twenty-two, almost twenty-three.

Qs Are you a student, or were you a student?

As I'm a graduate of Duquesne University, graduated in '64.Qs When did you first get involved with, well, with COREsepcifically?

As This summer.

Qs This summer?

As There's no CORE in Pittsburg. There's a chapter of COFO,but I wasn't active with them. I've been active in otherinterracial, uh, in civil rights groups, but never anythingconcerning the South before.—

Qs What kind of groups did you work with previously?

As There is at Duquesne a group called the Council ofInterracial Friendship, which is,uh.. I was very activein that, trying to do something with an inactive CatholicInterracial Council in Pittsburg, which I've just givenup on. And, uh. . . United Negro Protest Committee inPittsburg, which is the driving force...

Qs When did you first start working with these variousorganizations?

As Five years ago.

Qs That was when you were still in high school?

As Freshman year in college.

Qs Did you have any previous experience in high school?

As No, I didn't know any Negroes. I knew West Indiansfrom working in tobacco summers in Connecticut, but Ididn't know any American Negroes until I started college.

Qs Well, was it in college that you, well, what was itthat made you decide to work with these various groups?

0211-2InterviewSide 1 & 2Lorraine Roy

White, Female Baton Rouge, La,k weeksCORE Summer Volunteer

As Oh, an attitude, I think, now, that I don't like inanyone else, so I probably wouldn ft have liked myself, Iwouldn't like someone like me then, because it's, uh, thekind of a Christian motivation which insults. I wanted tohelp, but at the time it was a real patronizing thing. Ifound out soon enough. You know. But, uh, I fd alwaysbeen interested in, when I was younger, in missionaryactivity, and this is the closest to it I could find rightaround me. And so, I can't really take apart my motivation,but whatever it was, I don't like it now;

Qs What kinds of things did you do with these variousrights groups?

A: The group at Duquesne was primarily, because therewere no real outward signs of discrimination on campus,just a tremendous barrier, uh, no communication betweenthe two groups, Negroes didn't, except for sports and inmusic^ the music school, didn't take part in any universityfunctions at all. They sat in their own tables in the cafe,had their own rooms in the dorm — that's one legal thingthat we got, that we took care of, at Duquesne, integratingthe rooms in the dorms,1 they weren't before that;* But itwas mainly just setting up a place where students couldmeet and talk and, uh... lay open the possibility forfriendships^ That seemed to me the most important thing,the lack of dialogue, you know,between students.

Qs When did you decide to come down South this summer?

As Oh, that was because I fought against coming down forfour yearsv I think I just wanted to learn;., wanted tolearn about the South; I wanted to be where the militancyis;.1 ; and I think, urn, in the South because everything is,is so, ooh, I can't explain, any more than saying thatthings seem pretty open in the South, even with violenceand hatred, people are talking about it and people aresaying, " I hate youl" In the North they're not sayingthat yet; and I'm frightened for the day when that begins.But I wanted to be where things are open and learning aboutthe direction that the movement, which is going to affectthe North, where I want to be, real soon, and I want tobe able to help there. "" and I don't want to help withoutbeing in some way prepared in understanding; just whatNegro militancy is, just what the movement is," and allthese thingsf

Qs You said you'd fought against the idea for four years."When did you first think about coming down, and what circum-stances. " "

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As Oh, friends who came down last summer, they wanted meto come with them." They worked with a COFO project inMississippi. And I have a real strong aversion to peoplewho, urn, leave what I think is one of the worst;.. I'm justvery involved in the Hill District in Pittsburg, and, uh,I can't see people leaving Pittsburg and coming to theSouth and coming back and pretending the Hill isn't there.It seems to me an awareness of injustice, you know, if it'ssharpened in the South, should be, you know, expressed inthe North. And I just couldn't see leaving, and I couldn'tsee... and I still, uh, I'm going to have a real problemwhen I go back, when I find it an obligation to raisemoney for the South, I can't do it.

Qs Well/- what is the situation in the Hill Districtyou were talking about?

A: I think it's about; well there are four poverty areasin Pittsburg, and this is the most intense; It's not asbig as Harlem^ certainly, but it's every bit as intense;It's about forty blocks... twenty-three people per house"?"just awfult

Qs You were working in that before then, I mean, lastsummer?

As Yeah, uh, since my freshman year;1 There's a House ofHospitality in the Hill, which is a Friendship House, Idon't know if you know about the Worker House Movement inNew York and Chicago, but there's a house for men, there'sa hundred and fifty men who live there. Without, most ofthem, without any kind of income at all* Some of themwork for their keep; And^ uh, this is Catholic, in thesense that, 1 officially, it's under the diocese of Pittsburg,but it's run completely by laymen, and I spent a lot oftime there.

Qs Was there any particular thing that made you decide, nowyou know,5 to come South this particular summer?

As Well, I have friends from Louisiana,' and I wanted toknow more about Louisiana, and I'm going to marry someonefrom Louisiana, 3 after Christmas;" and that had a lot todo with it, which state I chose, I suppose; but as I saidbefore; just wanting to learn about the movement, you know;wanting to help, t00... And I don't know the Souths and soI can't help all by myself, I needed someone to help mehelp.'

Qs Why did you come down with CORE?

As They're the only ones who have a project in Louisiana.

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Qs Would you consider coming down with some of the otherorganizations, such as SNCC?

As COFO. COFO in Mississippi, yeah. I really thought ofthat 'cause I have friends there.

Qs Well, how about your parents, how do they feel aboutyour activity down here, y6ur involvement?

As My mother is trying so hard to understand that shecries.5 My father thinks this is just another one ofimystunts; you know, he thinks I just don't know what I'mdoing yet. He.'.. Ingeneral, neither of them are racists,and they're both trying very hard to understand what'sbeing preached to them and what's being told to them bytheir daughter, what with their Christian obligation andall that," but they're having, you know, they were forty-five when they started hearing this and it's real hardfor them;4 And, uh; they're trying, they're trying awfullyhard; They don't question anything I do anymore; I thinkif I were, if they were so, if I were under legal age theywould have stopped met My father would have, because, justfor fear, you know, that I'm too naive to know what I'mdoing;8

Q: What do your parents do?

As My father has a restaurant and a service station, andhe was very active in the police force in the county, InHartford County, until he, he's been very sick, he has abad heart. My mother works in the restaurant,%too. vQs How about religiously?

As We're Catholic, Roman Catholic;

Qs Being Catholic and so on, do you think this had, wasthis a motivation in your decision to come down this summer?

As Well, I don't know.. Not being Catholic, that's forsure. A love, and a concern for people, which has beengenerated and, uh, pushed, you know, but I don't know, Ican't expla&n it, but, by my, my belief in, uh, Christ andhis teachings." I surely didn't come down here to proselytize,you know,and to convert, but, you know, some of my enthusiasmand certainly, well, the love I want to express for peopleis generated by my faith, you know. I can't separate them.I'm not saying that people aren't probably more honestlygenerated in their spirirt of love, you know, even thoughthey're not believers.

Qs How about political, was there any political motivationin your decision to come down?

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As Oh* no, positively. I'm, uh, close to an anarchist.I just... I don't feel, uh, I'm not politically inclined,that's all.

Qs Do you have any brothers or sisters?

As No. I was adopted, I'm the only one;

Qs Turning now to Louisiana, what type of things haveyou been doing since you've been here, what areas of the statehave you been in?

As I spent one week in NewOrleans, three weeks in Greensburg,and I've been here for three weeks, four weeks, yeah, thisis the fourth week, I think.'

Qs What kind of things were you doing working, what type ofthing were you trying to do in the various cities?

As In New Orleans I was working on canvassing,3 thatwas justfor the week while I was waiting for Waveland, and I got toknow a lot of the kids. And then in Greensburg the primarywork there was encouraging... well, we hadn't really gottenoff the ground yet and there was a real basic problem amongthe four workers who were there, as to what direction weshould take, so consequently no real direction was takenthere, while I was there. The primary problems in thecommunity... well, schools have been integrated, but parentsare frightened to register their children, so a lot of thework was done just talking to people about it, and lettingthem know that others were going, because communicationwas bad between the farms." And, uh, I worked with theHeadstart program, ' cause I worked in a Montessori schoolfor four-year olds, something like the ones they have here,in Pittsburg, so I worked with that. ASCS elections... thesame sort of things that are in most rural communitits.

Qs Do you think you made any progress while you were there,during that fairly short period?

As All depends what you mean by progress, now I don't knowif you mean personally, or as a group.

Qs Well, potentially;';.

As Uh... I don't know; Theo only thing I can say formyself is I made a lot of friends, and I think, uh, I think...I don't know about the whole project, I think if I'd havestayed longer, you know, if I would have stayed, the potentialis always there when you make friends with people, you know.Might have gone into something..;

Qs Do you ajhve any problems with communication, being, youknow, an outsider, a Northerner, a student?

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As Oh, sure, sure;

Qs What types of things, in other words, is there reallya definite barrier to break down, and how do you go abouttrying to break it down?

As The barrier that's always there, uh, between me andthe people I want to learn the most about, is, you know,the color of my skinf And I think the only way, the realway, that I just said before, something aboutfriendship,the most honest way to break any barrier down is to letsomeone know you want to be their friend." And that, uh,that doesn't mean you deny the barriers are there, maybein talking about it and admitting it, but saying , youknow, despite the fact, to many of the Negroes who arehere, whom I really love, I really care for them very much,I know, you know, to say to them, and maybe not sayingto them directly, but letting them know that...uh, youknow. " " I realize I can run from them, and I realize Ican say a lot of dumb things and hurt them. And, uh, I'mwilling to accept the hurt of their not wanting to acceptme sometimes, you know, because I hate my people nothaving accepted them for a long time. Just letting peopleknow that I want to be their friend, you know...

Qs How about within CORE itself, is there any problemworking as a white student and so on?

As It's sort of the same thing I was just saying. Thecolor of my skin and that I've never been in a violentsituation in my life and that I was brought up in a middle-class community and I've always been safe and sheltered andsecure and I've never had any real problems and, uh...I've always been secure. And that's the basic thing. Sothat any... well, that's, that's a tremendous barrier.

Qs Well, again, I'm still interested in your initialdecision in college to become involved in civil rightsand so on, after having apparently not been involved andso on. Was this a direct result, say, of courses or pro-fessors or just students you met?

As Well, my mother always had mission magazines aroundthe house, and I always, ever since I was real little,had it in my head that I wanted to be a missionary, some-where, you know... and I always liked Africa., and Ameri-can Negoes happened to look like Africans... I don'tknow, I can't take apart my motivation. When I got inhigh school, and people started talking about... The PeaceCorps wasn't exactly apian then, it was more of an idea,but it was being discussed, and that appealed to me awhole lot. And a lot of it, too, was because I went toa high school where, oh, an all-white high school, boarding

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school, it was very sort of exclusive, girls who wereextremely prejudiced, not from having lived with Negroes,but from ignorance, and so, it was, like, I was the onlyone from out of the state of Maine and so it was in re-taliation I said things that I didnft really know, butthat I just said because I, somehow I figured they werewrong. I just didn't agree with them, you know. So I'dsay, you know, " You're wrong," but I didn't have anyreal foundation, and no experience, certainly in friend-ships or living with Negroes or knowing them at all, justbecause I didn't like what they said, you know. And Ihad a tremendous reputation in high school for being allkinds of things and I didn't really know what I was talkingabout, it's just that I didn't like what they were saying.

Qs Well, when you joined these organizations in college,your freshman year, did you do that on your own initiative,or were you brought in by. " "As When I was a freshman at Duquesne, there wasn't anyinterracial group. A professor that I had, in a historycourse, invited a Negro who was, whose friend I got tobe because I was a Political Science major and he was, too,invited Howie to join in interracial discussions and Howieinvited me to come. And that semester that professor wastold that if he wanted to stay at the university he shouldleave interracial activities alone, and so we, on our own,decided not to be just a study group, but to organize, andso there were three of us who started a group. That's how.

Qs Was Howie sort of the instigator, had the major ideaabout it?

As Yeah, he was... We wanted... yeah.

Qs Turning back to CORE in Louisiana again, you've been,I take it, in about three different locations. I wonderif you'd just compare your activities in these particularsituations in New Orleans and St. Helena and here, as faras what you're aiming to do again.

As Oh, I'd love to be in the field. I want to go back,yeah, if I can, but as far as my own, where I want to be,it's with the poor.

Qs What are you doing here in Baton Rouge now?

As Working with community relations.

Qs What does this entail?

As By telephone and other ways, keeping in contact withall of the parishes, getting together reports from them,trying to help them, you know, keep in touch with the

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state office and what's going on, and also take care oftheir needs and see that whoever can take care oftheirneeds knows that they need it and when. That §ort ofthing. That's officially what it means.

Qs This is sort of office work?

As Uh-huh.

Qs Are there any plans for you to be sent out into thefield again?

A; I think, it all depends how long I stay. If I can geta leave of absence extended to the second week of September,then IMI be going out into the field. If I can't, thentheref d be no reason to, because I wouldn't be on a projectlong enough.

Qs What are your plans, by the way? Are you going to stayafter the summer, or do you know yet?

As No, I'm going back. I have a job in Pittsburg. I workwith the Poverty Program.

Qs Oh, I see... And this is with the Job Corps, 0r...

As Poverty Program. I'm a Negro youth worker in Pittsburg.

Qs Do you have any plans to come back down South again?

As I'll be coming back down for a week in January, butnot to work with CORE. I don't know. I don't know if,uh;.. I don't know what the situation is going to be.

Qs Well, how about the aims of the civil rights organization,you know, CORE and so on. A lot of people talked about thecongruence of the civil rights and peace movement and thistype of thing, and the desirability of sort of extendingthe civil rights movement outside of purely civil rightsactivity, say, their political activities and so on. Howdo you feel about this kind of thing?

As I don't think that anyone can ever separate, you know,the movement for civil rights in the South and the peacemovement and free speach movement and all these things.It seems to me the point is, people have decided, decidedfor some reason or another, that they wanted to be inLouisiana or in the South working for immediate civilrights and working in communities on projects, helpingpeople to organize themselves. And so, by giving yourwhole effort to that doesn't mean that, you know, thatCORE isn't interested in the other things, and there mightbe statements made, but I can't see, because there's such

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a shortage of people who really understand the movementin the South and who are really able to work with peopleandwho have real good experience as far as community re-lations are concerned, I think that the emphasis shouldstill be on working right, physically, being with thesepeople and working with them, and that, uh, other thanexpressions, CORE'S philosophy concerning the peacemovement;.; 1 I don't know, I don't know... Like, I don'tthink, you know, that it's necessary for everyone inCORE to be a pacifist, or, you know, like that, and Idon't think everyone is. And I certainly don't thinkthat everyone within the movement, especially the kidsfrom down here, who haven't had a lot of contact withthe ideas in the peace movement, have any kind of opinionabout. I don't see, yet, how CORE can have a, can havean opinion, you know. You know what I mean.

Qs Yeah. Well, how about the summer project, thisparticular summer, do you think it is effective or isit becoming effective and will it be extended next summer?Or would you like to see it extended?

As Oh, yeah. I think in the communities, communitiesthat no one hears about, I mean in the news, you know,communities like Tallulah and the potential in St. Helenaand in St.* Landry (?) and in others, where the peoplehave been working with, for instance, the unions and millsand desegration fo schools and the ASCS elections andHeadstart; All these have been really quietly done,butI think that these parishes have been tremendously effect-ive, or the work there has been effective, and I thinkyou could call them a success if there's any kind ofjudge for that, if you're looking for internal organizationin the community, which is what CORE is supposed to belooking for this summer, I think there is; I wouldn'tput any... I wouldn't even include Bogalusa or Jonasboro,because there hasn't been any organization, communityorganization, really, other than the militancy in Boga-lusa, and I don't know what it is in Jonesboro. I don'tknow where it is, either.'

Qs That's interesting. Do you think that CORE employsenough staff workers, I mean, to handle the programadequately, do you think that they're reaching enoughcommunities as the staff stands.

As Well, I don't think that CORE should go to any morecommunities until it's well founded in the communities,till the communities that they're in, that staff workersare in, are organized in themselves, then CORE peoplecan leave.*

Qs Do you think, well, are there any specific signs

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of progress in the communities and so on?

As Oh, yeah.' I just mentioned some of the ones, Tallulah,St. Landry (?), those two particularly really strike me.And in most parishes the workers have been quieter thanthe others " There hasn't been much testing of publicaccommodations and there hasn't been any marching at all.But there has been an awful lot of quiet work done withcommunity people, urging them to meet and to get togetherand to discuss and to argue and to petition.

Qs How about the desirability of bringing in outsidewhite volunteers again? Do you think this is a good idea?

As I wish.;. I don't know, I'm hung up on that idea,because I'm trying to integrate ideas that I had beforewith ideas now that seem to make an awful lot of senseto me, and I don't want to reject the old ones just be-cause I have new ones. I understand very well and I reallyfeel that there shouldn't be plans that whites from theNorth continue to come down here, indefinitely, becauseif the movement is to be truly a movement, an internalmovement, like we were talking about community organiza-tions, if it's to really mean something to the SouthernNegro, it's to be his movement, then we don't belong here.I mean if we have to stay, then there's something awfullywrong.

Qs Do you notice this feeling among the Southern Negroesthat the movement is being taken away from them?

As The movement's not going to be taken away from themanymore than it has been, it had been... the direction...I don't know if it ever could be taken away from them,but maybe last summer, when there were so many projectsthat were sort of messed up by well-intentioned but never-theless white people who set up all kinds of organizationsand superstructures in communities, and then left, andleft a community that was maybe a little bit worse offthan before, for having yes-ma'amed and no-ma 'arned anothersummer; And just left all kinds of organizations thatno one in the community was trained to handle.

Qs Are you talking now about Missiissippi or Louisiana?

As I'm talking about last summer in Mississippi becausethis was where the big projects were. Now I don't knowtoo much, this is what I've heard, this is the exampleused, of what happened in Mississippi when everyone leftlast summer ;s

Qs I was going to ask if you perceive any difference

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between CORE'S particular approach in Louisiana and thatof NFDP, SNCC or SCLC?

As I'm not that familiar with their projects in theSouth, the internal work, you know.

Qs How do you feel anout the leadership of CORE inLouisiana? Or, what characterizes the leadership?

As I don't know who the leadership is. Are you talkingabout Ronnie Moore? Ronnie's a very... very vocal leader.I can't... I don't know where leadership comes, I don'tknow how to say it.;.

Qs What are your feelings on non-violence?

As I don't know for sure, but as far as I know now, Idon't think I could ever kill anybody, and I think thereason, I know the reason for that is because I know I'mnot ready to die; I'm scared to death of dying; And Iknow that someone who wants to kill me is no more readyto die than I am, and I don't think I could take theresponsibility for taking another person's life. But Idon't know? That's what I feel. But I'd have to be ina situation before I could really honestly answer that.As far as I know now I'm non-violent...

Qs Have you had any situations this summer in which youwere either afraid of harm of some sort 0r...

As Twice. One time was when we were being chased onthe road in Greensburg. Another time was just when therewas a threat to the home;

Qs Can you tell me a little bit more about this chase?

As Well, that was... all the workers in St;J Helena werewhite, and two of us, Fred Lacey (?) and I, were drivingwith local kids, andthey had picked me up, so I was inthe back seat with two Negro boys on either side and therewere two Negro boys in the front. I was the only girl inthe car.' We were just driving along, bringing the otherkids home, before going to our house, and a truck wentby, a pick-up truck, with crackers in it, and they stoppedand turned around and started chasing us on thegravelroads. And they were going awfully fast, and they pulledalongside of us and they tried to push us over, and wefinally ended up in the ditch. But they didn't stop, theykept going. We were all pretty frightened, 'cause it wasway out, way, way out, and it was dark.

Qs You mentioned all the workers in St. Helena were white.Does this really have a drawback?

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As Oh, definitely, definitely. As far as I'm concerned,yes, I guess as far as I'm concerned, whites are a draw-back, on any project. Whether in the minority or themajority, because it's a simple fact that, no matter howmuch I liked to believe it before, and no matter how muchI would still like to believe it, aNegro farmer's eyesjust don't light up when he sees an integrated team comingtoward him. No matter how much he understands that whiteperson's mission and no matter how much he really wantsto like him, he just can't talk about theMan when theMan's sitting in front of him.Q: Do all the people feel this way, or do you know allthe people feel this way, that you try to talk to?

As A lot of them; . . some who had been with white peoplebefore in the CORE projects were much more open andnatural-acting; Some of the kids were really good. Butespecially with people who are in their thirties and for-ties and fifties, and still are running the communitiesand still have twenty more years to go, at least, oftheir lives, andcontrolcthe communities, they would bevery polite and nice, but still yes-ma'am, you know, with-out wanting to. And when you teased them about it, some-times some ladies over there, they'd still keep coming out.

Qs There is a difference, then, between the younger kidsand the older generation?

As Sure;

Qs How does this manifest itself, is it a more militantattitude on the part of the younger people?

As It's an openness;' I just notice, I like working withhigh school kids, I workedwith them in the Hill, and Icould see in St. Helena...some of the kids who used tohang around this one place called Stewart's, I'd go downthere at night and just talk to them. And I remember Iwas really excited one night because this boy named EddyBrown;*;, wasn't flirting with me, but was being a littlebit fresh in his mouth, and it was good, it really good,because he was saying this to some girl, he didn't knowwho she was, he was just talking. I was really excitedbecause he acted natural with me, certainly no yes-ma'am.And as a joking relationship that you can have with youngpeople, you can just kid a whole lot and tease them andsort of be more on an even relationship with them. Andthey don't question you quite so much, if you present your-self to them as someone who's, not cool, but, I don'tknow, can just mess around a little bit, you know.

Qs Why did you leave St. Helena?

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As I wanted to. I didn't want to leave the people, butI didn't want to be on an all- white project anymore, be-cause I didn't think I could be effective. I didn't thinka project could be effective that's all-white...

Qs How about here in Baton Rouge, you're more satisfiedwith the work you're doing now?

As I really like what I'm doing, I like the people I'mworking with, and it's really interesting, but I miss thepeople an awful lot. I miss the farmers, I miss the fam-ilies.

Qs How about your expectations when you came down, havethey been generally fulfilled, or are things quite a bitdifferent than you expected to find?

As Two ideas that we talked about, well, we didn't talkabout one too much, but anyway, the ideas of non-violence.I always had it in my head that nan-violence was a philo-sophy and not just a tactic with CORE, and so I really hadto learn an awful lot about that. It took an awful lotof thinking to adjust to that. And the roles of whitesdown here. Those two things. I didn't have any idea thatthe situation was like it was, and I'm glad that Iknow.

Qs Did your orientation session in Waveland help you atall, in orienting you as to what to expect?

As Sort of, because we had big fights about it. Therewere big fights going on, long discussions and fights,unfortunately started by white kids, one white boy whogot up and said, "I came down here looking for brotherlylove and I'm discriminated against like every Negro isin the state, you know, and I don't like it," and allthis... well, he started that, and so caused kids likeSears and Billy and Kenny to go up and apologize, whichI thought was really dumb, 'cause why should they haveto apologize to him? They don't owe him an apology? Heowed them many for demanding things of them that they havea hard time doing.

Qs Was conflict fairly widespread, or was it just sortof a localized thing at orientation?

As Oh, it was the whole... it was at the assembliesthis was disoused by everyone.

Qs Was the conflict finally resolved?

As Not resolved, it was just brought into the open. Idon't say you can resolve that. The steering committee of

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CORE will resolve it when they determine how many whiteswill be coming down and if CORE is going to be officiallynon-violent in its tactics. That's the only way anythinglike that could be resolved.

Qs I don't know very much about the steering committee.Do you know how it operates?

As No. I think it's composed of staff who stay down hereall the time. I don't know.

Qs You were mentioning the possibility of violence withinthe movement; Do you have any specific ideas or opinionson this?

As I came down here thinking, as I still do, that non-violence is the wayfor all men and is the only way thatany peace will be achieved. But I realize now that I'vechosen this way, but as I said before, I was sheltered andI've never been in a violent situation, and so I haven'treally met the test of my convictions yet. And untilnon-violence as a tactic, and it better happen soon, untilit begins to do what it's supposed to do, that is, prickthe conscience of the white, if that doesn't happen soon,people are going to chuck it completely, because it's notdefending their families, it's not securing any kind ofjustice for anyone. It hasn't been working. It's beenpricking the Northern white conscience, but we're allcoming down here. But as far as the Southern white con-science, the people these Negroes have to live with, it'snot... They didn't stop until the Deacons were organized,they didn't stop riding through the Negro community shootingand going into homes... they didn't stop taking the women.It didn't help.

Qs I was going to talk about a group like the Deacons.

As They're not doing anything different than Negro farmershave been doing ever since the word go, they've been keep-ing a gun. Every Negro family, the home that I went intoin Greensburg had a gun somewhere in the house, you know,and they're ready to use it. These Deacons are merelydefending their families and communities, and they're notoffensive, they're defensive. And they've organized justto let the white community know they're there, to frightenthe whites from brutality. And it's working.

Qs Do you think that the people before the Deacons, oreven now, that they were afraid, I mean, that the communitylived with fear? Of the white community or of white violence?

As Sure. It was really funny with Negro families in St.

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Helena, they'd, uh, say, we'd start talking about theKlan, and say, "Has there been any violence here?" "Oh,we're not afraid here, no, no trouble. Got a gun." Theydidn't want to express their fear to us too much, and theydidn't want to admit it to themselves, 'cause it's not apleasant thing to live with. But they had that gun andthey'd talk about it and they knew right where it was andthey'd show it to you andtell you how many times thefd hadto use it?

Qs Did the whites know they had guns also?

As Oh, I'm sure? In St. Helena everyone drove around witha gun in the car or truck somewhere, you know.

Qs What was the situation regarding white-black relations?Were the whites really overtly hostile?

As They were... They were not up until things like desegre-gation of schools and testing of public facilities, and thenthey started to act up, they started riding through theNegro community, shooting? Lots of deaths that are unin-vestigated??? real strange deaths occurred.?? within aperiod of two years after school desegregation?

Qs I was going to ask, how long has this actively beengoing on, the attempt to scare desegregationists?

As There were three Negro students in St. Helena highschool, well, it's Greensburg high, actually, is thewhite school, there were three there last year? All threeof them were failed? but they're going back this year.They stayed back.

Qs Do you know if the decision was theirs, or was itsomeone who asked them.?.

As To go back? Oh, yeah, oh, it was all theirs. Theyhad a real rough time. They all had pretty good grades,two of them had real good grades, but in the last quarterthey weren't given any of their tests back. They were allseniors, and when it came time to get report cards, theywere just told they were failed. And we figured out theywere failed for two reasons, they were failed first of allbecause Negroes didn't want, I mean, the white Board ofEducation and the whites didn't want Negroes in Commence-ment exercises, and they also didn't want any more Negroescoming there next year. But they told David and Charlesand Georgia Lee that if they wanted to graduate and gettheir diplomas they could take a nine-weeks correspondencecourse in the summer and graduate in August. But thethree of them decided, on their own, because I'm sure at

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least one girl's parents didn't want her to go back? thatthey were going to go back? And they were going to goback and take all those classes again and graduate inCommencement? And twenty-three others are going backwith them? Twenty-three Negroes?

Qs Does CORE have any part in this type of organization,in other words, do they try to talk to the kids about thisor is it left entirely to them?

As When I was in St. Helena we talked a lot to kids whowere just a little bit, uh? hedging. It was more theparents than the children, there were all kinds of reasons,one man? Mr. Stewart, didn't want his daughter going tothe white school because he has a gas station which pumpswater from the school board pipeline, and he was afraidthat they'd turn it off? It was also heavily mortgaged,too, by the bank. Other people had lots of reasons, most-ly concerning their jobs, financial reasons, why they wereafraid. Most of the conversation, the real nitty-grittyconversation, should have been with the parents, but youcan't push people, and so most of the talking we did waswith the kids, just encouraging them? And a lot of timesthey didn't know that someone else was going to apply andso when they found out maybe ten were, you know, they saidokay? Just encouraging, you know?

Qs You were talking a little while ago about the overalldirection of the movement, what kind of ideas about thatdo you hhve?

A; What I see here, because kMs from the Hill districtinPittsburg and... well, they just followed me all overLouisiana, literally? in my mind, you know, the Hill has,I really miss it? and I'm frightened because as far as I'mconcerned the North hasn't, the Northern Negro, in theslum, hasn't even begun to come into his own yet. And theSouthern Negro is coming into his own. I haven't seen thepoverty anywhere in the South that I've seen where I work?I haven't seen anywhere the mental depression that comes fromnever experiencing your own dignity that I've seen in theNorthern Negro. I've never seen that, because the Southerndignity.?, the Southern farmer, maybe it's because Iworked mostly with farmers, but anyway the Southern Negroseems to have a real sense of his own dignity, he's a manwithin himself, maybe because he owns things, even if they'remortagaed? he has land and he has a house and he can walkoutside. He can grow things. The Northern Negro, as faras I'gl concerned, I haven't seen that he has this. Andwhen violence comes to the North, I fear, I fear a wholelot for all of us? because it's going to be a bad day,unless soon, unless there's a way??? unless racial pride?and you can call that nationalism, but unless a tremendous

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amount of pride in being black is born in these people?pride in being black and pride in their own culture andeconomic and political independence of the white man,unless these come soon??? I don't know how they're goingto come, I don't know how they're going to come, especi-ally in the North, because those slums are really con-trolled, you know.

Qs You said, " When violence comes to the North.?.",you think it is coming?

As If it comes? when it does come... I really can't see,thousands of people living on top of each other, in theconditions they're living in now??? I don't know hist-orically any place where a change has come about peace-fully? I really don't. I wish I did, because it wouldmake me feel good if I knew of one? Where there havebeen people living in acute depression, like they are.And when they have one object for their hate, and youcan't tell me these people donr*t hate? It's like theyhave two sides, the Christian side, the side that goesto church on Sunday and says yessir, yes, Lord, but thenthe rest of the six days of the week goes around fightingthe Man, whether it's just getting his welfare check orgoing out trying to find a job or just walking downstairsand sitting out on your stoop all day and just seeingfilth and garbage and not having the heart to encourageyour kids to stay in school because yourknow^that eventeachers don't get jobs except in Negro schools and in-tegration of schools is coming to late for those jobs...I don't know? I don'tknow how it's going to come about?But I'm frightened that it may be violent. You know?

Qs Well? do you think the movement, CORE, SNCC, SCLC,as it operates in the South can come to the Noeth?

As The movement of black people to their own indepen-dence I don't associate particularly with CORE, SNCC orSCLC, it's just peoplehaving to come to their own...It's going to come to the North, it doesn't have any-thing to do with being Northern or Southern,- it comesfrom being black and being discriminated against forgenerations.

Qs Well, do you think that your work in the PovertyProgram is going to be able to get at this to some ex-tent, do you see any hope there?

As The Poverty Program in Pittsburg I like, because it'scommunity-oriented and because the people in the communityare really involved with what projects are going on? Like,my job as youth worker is going into the homes of all thechildren that are coming to the centers and talking to

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them? making sure that they know what their children aredoing at the center, or that they're not coming for theirtutoring? Also involves a lot of other things, 'causewhen you get to know people and you get to like them,there's no limit to the number of things that are thereto be done? Mostly just helping them to be aware of what'savailable for them in the community. That's all I can do.

Qs Did you decide to go into the Poverty Program beforeor after you came down here?

As Oh? I've been working withthem since January.

Qs I see? In other words, this is a leave that you haveto work with CORE.

As Yeah? a leave of absence.

Qs How come? having been involved in the poverty thingand so on, you just felt that you needed the experiencedown here?

As Well, when I'm working in community organization inthe fall I'm going into a completely brand-new center, anda lot of the making contacts in the community, in thispart of the Hill district? and going into the homes, andjust basic fundamental ideas of organization* well, I need,and I went into the center working with an older personwho was really involved and so he helped me a lot, but Iwasn't responsible for much of the organization. Thissummer in Pittsburg the only Poverty Program activities,except for the recreation, are Headstarts. And so, Ithought that coming down here, and so did my boss, evenif I was watching from the sidelines, a tremendous oppor-tunity to learn about what real community organization is?

Qs Do you think you're learning much?

As Yeah? a whole lot? They may not want me back? I justwrote tdby boss yesterday? and told him everything thatwas on my mind. First of all? that maybe I didn't belongin the Hill at all, but if I did? it certainly wasn't ina job that paid me as much as it does?