22012 [ASSEMBLY.]

legislative Esembly,Thu rsday, 17th November, 1938.

Questions: Railways (3)-Workshops manager's lmeSleeping berths, etc., Great Southern lineRefreshment room Kalgoorthe

Police, successful prosecutions for stealingBarter trade with Germany .. .. ..Boys Quarry, blasting operations

Fills: Stampe Act Amendment, In.. .....Bookmakers Betting T"x, IR........Fisheries Act Amendment (No. 2), 3R.Road Districts Act Amendment (No. 2), 3R.Financial Emergency Tax, returned . ..Financial Emergency Tax Assessent Act

Amendment, returned .. ... ..Income Tax Assessment Act Amendment (No. 2),

Income Tars (Rates oa euto) RLosm tEstimates. 1938-39; Mdessage, Corn.Annual Estimates, 1938-30 Votes discusesed ..

Raiways, Tramways, Ferries and Electricitysupply ............ .......

PA092202

2202220222022202220322D32203221622162216

2216

2216221722032217

2217

The SP'EAIKER took the Chair at 4.30p.m., and read prayers.

QUESTIONS (3)-RALWAYS.Workshops Manager's Leave.

IMr. STYANTS asked the Minister for

Rfways: 1, WhatI amount of accumuluteda pro rata long service leave respectivelyis jie to the manager- of the Midland June-tiOll Workshops, 'Mr. B. W. Johnston? 2,Wh 1lk amount of accumulllate'd and currenitunin i leave respectively is due to him?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS ispliedt, 1, Nil and 72 days. 2, Nil and 16davQ)

Line.

MNr. SEWARD asked the Minister for

ail1a's 1, Is it intended to alter sonceour-bet s leeper coaches into two-et

sleepers for use onl the Great Southern line?2, If so. will the altered coach provide awashing bowl in each compartment! 3, Howmany coaches is it intended to alter? 4,What is the estimated cost of altering eachcoach ? 5, What is the cost of an AZ typeof coach?

Tue -MINISTER FOB RAILWAYS re-plied: 1, The matter is under consideration.2, Yes. 3, Four. 4, Estimated costs not yetfinalised. 5, £E5,739.

Refreshment Room, Kfalgoorlie.

Mr. SEWARD asked the 'Minister forRailways: 1, Is the refreshiment room at the

K~algoorlie railway station controlled andcarried on by tile Railway Department, or isit let to a tenderer? 2, If the latter, whois the lessee? 3, Were any complaints re-ceived by the department regarding thedinner served up on Friday night, the 4thNovember? 4, If so, were they investigated,and with what result?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: rc-plied: 1, Let to a tenderer. 2, T. Gorman.3, No. 4, Answered by No. 3.

QUESTION-POLICE.

8ticcesafut Prosecutions for Stealing.

31r. WATTS asked the Minister represent-ing the Minister for Police: 1, Are figuresavailable shiowing- the number of personsconvicted of stealing dluring the lnst threeyears in all courts in the Stlate? 2, If so,will he inform the House of the number soconvicted in each vear?

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTUREreplied: 1 and 2, The figures arc publishedin thle Annual Report of the Commissionerof Police and the Statistical Returns issuedby the Governent Statistician, and areclassified ats stealing, stealing as a publicservant, honwe stealing, cattle stealing, sheep

seln, stealing wvith violence, stealing fromlie persn,~ breaki ng, en'tering ancd stealing,

etc.

QUESTION-BARTER TRADE WITHaERMANY.

Mr. SAMPSON asked the M1inister forAg-riculture: 1, Is he awn ic that Gennanydoes considerable trade with several nationshy diret barter? 2, Has his attention berndrawn to a paragra ph in "The Primary*Producer" (Sydniey), dated thle 4th Novem -

ber, 1938, reading:-"Germany's barter tradeagreement with South Africa, which expiredonl the 31st August. is to be renewed. Tileexperiment wherebY payments for Germangoods bought by South Africa are offset by'German purchases in South Africa started in1934. This trade has since developed to suchanl extent that the agreement covers tradeamounting to £5,080,000 and Germany buysmore South African wool than does.evenGreat Britain"? 3, Will he give eonsidera-tion to the matter with a viewt to makingapjproprihte represenitations to the FederalMinister for Commerce so that a survey of

(17 NovmNfisiR, i193S.220

the possibilities of trade by barter withGeriany' in reslieet of We!:tern Australianwheat, wool, meat, fruit and other primaryproducts may be undertaken?

The IM~STER FOR AGRICULTUEEreplied: 1, 2 and 31, Yes.

QUESTION-BOYA QUARRY.Blasting Operations.

Mr. SAMPSON asked the Minister forMines: 1, Is he aware that blasting opera-ttions at the Boyai quarry are proving pain-fully trying to residents in the vicinity?2, Further, does he realise that the increas-ingly severe explosions; are having a veryb)ad effect on buildings in the locality, wxallsand foundations beingo threatened becauseof the heavy concussions which occur? 3,Do existing regulations or other legislationprescribe maximumn charges for blasting orquarrying in the Eastern Hills Districts and,if so, is the law observed at the Boya StateQuarry? 4. Will hie advise what is pro-posed to be done, and will he insist on thecharges of fracteur being reduced sufficientlyto ensure that injury to health and damageto buildings are no longer brought about byState quarrying opera tions?

The MIINISTER FOR MINES replied:1 and 2, No. 3, The Acts and regulationsadministered by the Department of Mines4do not prescribe any maximum charges forblasting and quarrying.. 4, The matter is-one which should lbe referred to the localgoverning authority.

BILLS (2)-FIRST READINJG.1, Stamip Act Amendment.2, Bookmakers Betting Tax.[ntroduced by the M-inister for Agricul-

tare.

LOAN ESTIMATES, 1938-39.Mlessage.

MTessage from the Lieut.-Governor re-ceived and read transmitting the Loan Esti-mates for the year 1938-39 and recommend-ing appropriation.

Ta Committee.The House resolved into Committee to

consider the Loan Estimates, Mr. Sleemanin the Chair.

[79]

I (t e-D epart ils??tal, £8105,179:

THE PREMIER AND TREASURER(Hon. J. C. Willeock-Geraldton) [4.38]:In subiutting the Loan Estimates I do notprps to go into a detailed explanation ofthe works carriedl out last year or those con-templated. this year. That information canlie obtained by members from Ministers in4ontrol of the various departments when the

iesare being discussed. I shall confinemy remarks to a genera! outline of the Gov-ernment's policy in respect of loan expen-diture, and give a sumamary of the expendi-ture last year and the proposed expenditurefor this year. The amount of loan mioneysa' ilable to the Government is determinedby the Loan Council, which is guided in itsdfecisions as to the sums to be borrowed verylargely by the advice of the CommonwealthBanik.

When introducing the Loan Estimates lastyear I stated that for the past few yearsthere had been a decided toad eney to reduceloan expenditure throughout Australia.This year that tendency has been continued,anid our approved programme for 1938-39 isthe smnallest since 1091-32, when we wvere inthe depthis of the depression and the loanmarket was practically closed to us. Lastyear the programme approved by the LoanCouncil w~as £C2,000,000, whereas this year ithas been reduced to £1,670,000, or a drop of£330,000. One of the factors that has tendedto reduce the State's share of loan funds hasbeen the demands of the Commonwealth fordefence requirements. In contradistinctionto the experience for some years past, theCommon-wealth hans taken for its own re-quireanents a fairly large share of the loanfunds available. When the loan was floatedlast MNay for the completion of the States'programnies for 1937-38, an amount of£C4,000. 000 was added for defence expendi-ture. While it is essential that the legitimatedefence requirements of the Commonwealthshall he met, it is unfortunate if the moneyto meet them can he secured only at the ex-pense of the necessary developmental needsof the States.

The total loan expenditure of the Coin-monwealth and all the States for the yearended the 30th Jutne, last, was £C16,835,000,which included £2,500,000 borrowed by theCoinmonwvealIth Government for the adjust-ient of rural debts. That money washanded over to the various State Govern-

2203

2204 [ASSEMBLY.]

ments, which acted as agents for the Corn-mnonwealth in the distribution of the funds.For this year the approved programme is£C14,000,000, including the requirements oftile Commonwealth for rural debt relief,namely, £2,000,000, and this represents a re-duction of £2,835,000 as compared with theprevious year. As members will have ob-served, the allocation for expenditure onrural relief, spread over all the States, hasthis year been reduced by £500,000.

Since 1929, apart from a small amountborrowed during the last financial year bythe Comnmonwvealth for defence purposes, aloan for the Sydney Water and SewerageBoard and] our own requirements for theState motor vessel "Koolama," no loanshave been raised overseas. The whole ofthle requirements of the State has been pro-vided by means of internal borrowings.

Hon. C. Cr. Latham: That was not newmoney.

The PREMIER: No, the money wasraised internally.

Hon. C. G. Latham: What about themoney the Federal Government obtainedfor defence purposes.

The PREMIER:- That is the point I havejust mentioned. While the restriction ofborrowing from the standpoint of Statefunds has certain decided advantages, it is

a. doubtful whether developmental work can bea. financed, together with heavy expenditure

on defence, from the funds available to us.Obviously the position cannot he improved

ni aterially by transferring to revenue cer-tain items now charged to loan, becausesubstantial relief to the loan funds couldbie given from revenue only by the imposi-tion of additional heavy taxation. Theeffect of raising such taxation must neces-sarily tend to dIry up the flow of savings,which provide the'pool from which the loans4an be raised. If we extract more from thep~eople by way of taxattion and use thatmnoney for revenue expenditure, it will meanthat the savings of the people will he with-drawn from various avenuies and the public.will not he able to subscribe to internal loans-is they' have during the last few years.I think that would he rather disastrous.While, uinfortunately, defence expenditureis necessary' , it has to be recognised thatmuch of it is unproductive, and is justifiedonly on thle grounds that were that expedi-hire not incurred, there might be a dangerof the productive assets, already created,

being destroyed. From )pne stindpoint,therefore, defence expenditure can be re-garded in the light of an insnrance policy.There are assets of value and therefore pro-vision is to be made by way of insurance asa. safeguard against their being destroyed.Defence expenditulre is necesary for thatreason, but it does not add to the produc-tive capacity of the country.

Hon, C. G. Lathanm: Much of the ex-penditure goes in material, and little invlabour.

The PREMIER: Yes. Even when moneyis spent on the manufacture of guns, am-munition, the construction of barracks andso forth, all that expenditure doe-, not addIone penny to the productive cap~acity of thecountry.

Hon. C. G-. Latham: That is so.The PREMHIER: Unfortunately, the ex-

penditure is necessary from the standpointof insurance, and must be provided so thatwe shall have a feeling of security regard-ing the future of Australia. If, thereforerheavy expenditure must be incurred for de-fence purposes, it is essential that the mone-tary machinery be overhauled in order thatit may be made capable of providing the,funds. The problem is made the moreAcute by the division of obligations Milderthe Constitution for defence and develo--ment respectively. The former is the re-sponsibility of the Commonwealth and thelatter that of the States. For the attain-mnent of a well-balanced economy, it isnecessary that there shall he no competitionfor the funds, required for the fulfilment ofthese obligations, and the Commnonwealthaqnd the States must co-operate in order thatthe best use lie made of the loan money' savailable. That has been the aim at themore recent Loan Council meetings. Imust admit that the proposals are extremelynebulous, aFnd have not got down to practi-cal details. All that has been said ait eon-ferenees between the Commonwealth G-ov-ement and the State Premiers is that theStates are prepared. as far as possible, toco-op~erate with the Commonwealth, but thatif Australiq is to progress, the develop-mental needs of the country will have tohe provided with the necessary capital.When those needs come intn comupetitionwithl the requirements of the Commonwealthdefence, an awkward problem arises. Mfoapeople will agree, however, upon the neecs-sity for some defence expenditure. If some

2*204

[17 NOVE2EiER, 1938.] 2205

of that expenditure can be devoted to thedevelopment of thle States, while at thesame time serving the needs of defence,' sonUItIh the better.' There call be mnore co-operation in tis respect between the Coin-nionwcalth and the States of New SouthWales and Victoria than between the Coin-mnonwealth and Western Australia. In NewSouth Wales and Victoria railways will beduplicated and put in a safe position, andthis work will be very valuable from thestandpoint of defence. This year, however,the States must undertake the very difficulttask of endeavouring to carry out essentialloan works with less funds. As most of theStates try to provide for the relief of un-emiploymecnt by carrying out public worksfinanced from loan moneys, and as the num-bers of unemployed have not continued tofall at the same rate asl the decrease in loanfunds, the problems confronting StateTreasurers are acute. I ami awre that thepolicy' of public works for the relief ofunemployment is criticised by some people;but in my opinion there should be no hesita-tion on the part of any community to bor-rOW for the purpose of providing work forthose who cannot obtain employment inprivate enterprise. Members will agree withmue that nothing can be more demoralisingthan continuous unemiployment, and that tobeep men in idleness for a day longer thanis avoidable is a social crime that no com-munity should tolerate.

A public works policy of unemploymentrelief must, of course, be applied intelli-gently and should contract when employ-mnent in private enterprise is brisk, expand-ing- when private investment is weak.

ffon. C. G. Lathamn: If money is notavailable for private investment, is it avail-able for the Government?

The PREMIER: Money is always avail-able for private investment. Because oflack of confidence in the future, however,investors prefer to place their money in abank onl fixed deposit or to subscribe toGovernment loans.

Hon. C. G. Latham: So they get someoneelse to invest it for then,.

The PREMIER: Yes. They are not pre-pared to take the risk of investing theirmne 'ev in private enterprise. At the startof our- depression years. millions of poundswere available in Australia for investment,but no one then wanted to borrow money.

Sontle of the 1banks even refused to acceptmoney on fixed deposit, as they had amplefunds. Inv'estors were therefore forced tosubscribe to Government loans. I think thatsonmc £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 was raised inAustralia at a little over 3 per cent.

Hon. C. G. Latham: Is not that a badsign ?

'The PREMIER: Yes. Consequently, theGovernment found it necessary to expandits borrowing programme in order to keeppeople employed. In 19,32-33 the borrow-ings by the Commonwealth and Statesamounted to £16,500,000. This increased to£27,000,000 in 1934-35. Following upon anincrease in private employment, borrowingshave dropped since that year until they fellto £14,600,000 during the last financial year.With the drop ini the national income dueto the decline in the prices of some of ourexports, it may be necessary' to extend Stateloan expenditure. Less money will beavailable and consequently, if we wish tokeep our people in employment, the Com-monwealth and the States will have to em-hark on extended loan~ expenditure.

Honl. C. G. Latham: Do you think vonwill get the money?

The PREMIER: Yes, I aim positive.Hon. C. G. Latham: Are you positive

you can get more money?The PREMIER: I si. Credit facilities

will be available.Hon. C. G. Latham: I am not talking

about credit facilities. I doubt whether youcan get the money. I think the banks arelending all they can.

The PREMIER: The CommonwealthBank and the Associated Banks advised theLoan Concil that ample inads were avail-able for- investmjentI. Neither thle Common-wealth Government nor the State Govern-nients desire to compete for money that canbe employed reproductivel 'y by privateenterprise. We therefore agreed, more orless will ingly, to a reduction in loan ex-penditure and found we could eanv onlmuch better. Notwvithstanding the tin-fortunate drop in prices Of prinmary pro'-ducts-and that has not vet effected us veryseriously-the condition of the State to-da~yis better tilan it was three or four years ago,when the Comnmonwvealth and tile S bitesspent the peak amount of £27,000.000.H-owever, if our income is reduced, we shialtagalin have to revert to loan expenditure,bitt that is a problem rather for thle future.

2206 -(ASSEMBLY)]

It is increasingly difficult to make the twopurposes coincide with the funds available,because unfortunately some of the most de-sirable works, from a developmental view-point, are the least attractive as regards em-ployient. I have a table of figures whichshowv thle rise in cost of unemploymentworks during tbe past six years. The tablerelatcs to the cost per man per week, and is-is followvs:

Year. Wages. Other. Total.

1932-331.933-341934-3.5193.5-361936-371937-38

£22

33

S.14171.6

1014

d.7

748

a

a. d.82

18 913 104 4

14 23 13

a . d.42 94 16 65 15 Ii

6 10 1174 66 1 U 11

The reduced cost last year as compared with1936-37 was due to two, factors. In thleear'lier year, the Railway Department car-ried out a fairly extensive re-laying pro-gramnme, in which the cost of materials washeavy. This work was completed in theyear, and no comparatively expensive "'orkwas done in 1937-38. For instance, theRailway Department re-laid the WonganHills line with heavier rails.

Hon. C. G. Lathanm: Were the rails onthat line not alwvavs 60 lbs.?

The PREMIER: No, originally the railswere 461/ lbs. Sixty-lb. rails have beenlaid uip to 'Mullewa, and on to Geraldton.We call now use the biggest engines inthe State in the northern areas, and, conse-quentl, Carny bigger loads. The cost,,iaturally. "-as heavy, because the aterialwas manufactured outside the State. Ahigh cost is not a disadvantage whein thewvork undertaken is fully reproductive, andthe number of men to be provided with workis w-ithin the ability of the funds to meet;lbut when funds decline or- reproductive wvorlhcannot he fonrd, uniless at i norcdinately highicost, the position becomes acuite. Thereinusi be a constant watch kept on the av'-enues inl which loan expenditure is incurredin order k see that as far as possible thoseavenues lead to reproductive works. It is un-avoidable, of course, in a vouing growingState such as ours, that part of the loanmoneys must he applied to undertakingswhich iii themselves are not reproductive.With local authorities, we haove beets con-structing roads on a proportionate basis:that is, we have been finding some of themoney and the local bodies have also foundsome.

Hon. P. fl. Fergruson: That scheme is notin existence to-day.

The PREMIER: No; fortunately we havenot had to resort to that lately. WesternAustralia has alrcady spent well over£850,000 a year in road construction alone,and that is as much as should be necessaryin a State like ours.

Hon. C. G. Latham: But roads are notconstructed out of loan money.

The PREMIER: No. The road require-erits are met by aii expenditure of £800,000P

a year.Hon. C. G. Lathamn: You had better not

say too much about that, because the moneycomes from the petrol tax.

The PREMIER: And the petrol tax ispaid mostly by the people. Years ago theCommonwealth recognised the justice of ourclaim because of our huge area, and so wrewere given consideration by way' of increasedpayments from the petrol tax. That, moneyis contributed by the people, and we mustadmit that those who have paid the tax haovereceived excellent value, not only fromi diestandpoint of comfort and convenience butalso because of reduced wear and tear ofvehicles. There has also been a considerablesaving of time for those engaged in businessas a result of the road construction workthat has beens carried out.

Hon. P. Al Ferg-uson: And the schemepioved helpful to the local authorities.

The PREMIER: What was helpful to thelocal authorities here in contradistinction tothe position of local bodies in the otherStates was thle fact that in Western Aus-tralia they got all the mniey'. New SouthWales took about a million from thle petroltax for its own rise. and South Australia, Ibelieve, took £300,000 or L400,000.

Hlon. P. D. FerguIson: We do not alwaysfollow those States in their mistakes.

The PREMIER : The whole idea regard-ing municipal or local gov'ernmecnt was thatthose bodies should carry out necessary roadconstruction in their own districts, and nottouch main roads. Nearly all the roads builtby the local bodies within their own bordershave been paid for out of fees that thoselocal bodies have obtained fromt vehicularlicenses. Quite a number of count iv earscome into the city, and from the registrationplates ire canl see that there is a considerableincrease in numbers. Only to-day I saw aKalgoorlie car, and its number was as highas 1300.

[17 NOVEMBER, 198.]20

Hon. C. G. Latham: And you will prob-ably see quite a number Of Perth ears onthe goldfields.

The PREMIER: I have no doubt that isso. Not only do the local authorities havemoney from the petrol tax spent in theirdistricts, but they also have the advantage ofthe fees collected in the district being re-turned to them. That is not done anywhereelse. I remember protestiing against thatprinciple when the proposal was before thisHouse in 193J. However, the alon ' wasgiven to the local bodies. I favoured theprinciple that the central Government shouldget some proportion of those fees. For-tunately, the State is not now so hard uplthat it needs to make a raid on anyv of thenioney that goes to the local authorities.

Mr. Patrick: It is a good thing, too, thatthe Commonwealth agreement was rene1wedfor ten years.

The PREMIER: Yes, it was a wonderfulthing for Western Australia, and indeed forAustralia generally. The CommonwealtbGovernment takes two-thirds of the petroltax, and we get one-third.

The Minister for Works: The Common-wealth shows a substantial profit on that.

Thle PREIMIER : Under the arrangementwe entered into with numerous local authori-ties for the improvement of the roads intheir districts which do not come underthe jurisdiction of thle Commissionerof -Main Roads, we provided the lab-our, and the loeal authorities sup-plied the material. This was mutuallyadivantageous in that it provided work formen deperiident on the Governmcnt, and im-

1)rovedl the roads in the local authorities'MreaS. Buit it is not such as canl be continued.Obviously, the responsibility for the main-teniance of roads rests on the local authori-ties, ind quite aipart from the fact that a,generous method for distributing licensefees should provide those bodies wvith amplerevenue, it is an undesirable practice for theeentral Government to relieve them of it.Mry desire is to show that this form of ex-pm'mdittnre cannot he continued. The mtoneyraised by local authorities by way of trafficfees, local registrations and rates, as wvell asthe mioney derived fromt the petrol tax,should be sufficient for the construction ofroads and the Government looks askance atexpenditure in this direction from LoanFunjds, on which we have to provide interestand sinking fund.

iDeliberately and with our eyes open wesoinetinlies; spend mitoney to provide employ-ment, but we are always anxious that itshould be spent on something that will provereproductive. Even if the work cannot betermed reproductive in itself, it m-ay even-tually lead to the p~roduction of wealth inthe Stnte This can be said of the expendi-ture that was incurred at Harveyv and War-oonn six or seven years ago. The worksthere were niot reproductive in the sense that

wegot interest and sinking fund from them,but the result "-as to increase the productivecapaceit'y of those districts. The. effect hasalso been to increase considerably tile Capitalvalue Of the land there.

Mr. Stubbs : Shall we not get interest andsinking fund eventually from that s-pendi-Lure?

The PREMIER : 1. think we shiall. Lastyear the Minister for Works. realising thehigh cost of the undertakings there, eon-sidlered it would be injudicious to impose ahigh rate immediately, but hie did strike arate which wvill nearly pay- interest andsinking fund. TPhis was fixed at 10 per cent.,increasing by 10 per cent. in each of 10years until the full amtount. of the i-ate isi-cached.

-Mi-. Stubbs: And the work has enhan-edthe value of the land?

The PREMIER : No doubt about it. InWaroona 1 saw land which four or five yearsago could have been purchased for £6 anacre and4[ which now was claimed to be wvorth£20 a.n acre. The people of the State shouldlie pleased to know that the South-West,which for many- vears ,vaS uinder a cloud,is now producing a. considerable proportionof the requirements of the State. Because 1go dlown to a district and observe that goodwork is being- done from a productive stand-

poinlt, I do not desire to rush hack inimedi-ately and imipose some burden on thle district.

Mir. Stuhbs: You can keep it in mindthough.

The PREM.-IER: Yes, I might keep it inmind, but I do not wish to discourage any-hody from doing good work such as is beingdone at present. People say that thle expen-diture of this money -will not result in thei-epaymeut of interest and sinking fund, butsuch expenditure has tended to increase theproductive capacity of the country to a tre-miendous extent, and in that benefit everycitizen of the State shares. Some of the

2207

220S [ASSEMBLY.]

wtgik dlone cannot be reproductive. Thede , ' vtem would be that if we wanted to

spend aloney) oil a work that was not likelyto return interest and siking fund, weshould dto it out of revenue or not at all: l utwe have not Yet jeoehed that ideal stage,though u considerable advance towards it hasbeen made. Public buildings such as hos-pilails and schools are not at all reproduc-tive. but their erection is a social obligation.When the cost of such buildings is heavy,to attempt to find the money out of revenuefor their erection is unwise, On the otherhand, when those buildings are likely to lastfor many years, it is reasonable that themionce' should be borrowed and that interestandl sinking fund payments should be metout of revenue so that the cost will be re-couped over a period of time instead of "inone y ear. Revenue should certainly be askedto bear the maintenance costs of these pub-lic buildings and, as far as possible, thecapital cost also. When such costs cannotbe met from revenue, we are justified in pro-vidinfr those social requirements from loanrnieY The expenditure on such assets mustbe limited of eour-se to a reasonable propor-tion of the loan moneys available from yearto year, otherwise the burden of debt wouldbecome too heavy and we would find our-selves in serious trouble. That efforts havelbeen mode by the Government to limit theloa expenditure on objects that are notfully reproductive, is evident from the fol-

Loan Expenditure 1929-30 to 1937-38.Percentage Distrilbution According to Direct

Productiveness.Years Filly Partially Other.

Reproductive. Reproductive.1929-30 to

1933-34 18%/ 4.5%/ 37%1934-35 46% 23% 31 %19:13-36 . 63% 14% 23 %1936-37 60%/ 17% 23 %M97.38 44% 32% 24%

Thle reduction in the percentage of ex-penditure onl fully reproductive undertak-ings last year AS compared with the previ-ous year is due to additional expenditurein 1937-38 on railways, harbours and in thepurchase of the new State ship. In the pre-potation of the table the term "reprodluc-tive' has been interpreted as applying tothose undertakings the earnings from whichairc sufficient to meet interest and sinkingfund charges. In a strictly economic sensethis interpretation would not, of course,

apply. Sonic of the undertakings that areclassified as partially reproductive may infact be the most reproductive because theyhave been the means of increasing the pro-ductive en pacit.A- of the State to a value manytimes greater than the initial loan ex pendi-Lure. For instance, in the last seven or eightveal's the amount of butter manufactured inthis State-formerly about a million lbs. wasproduced-lias increased 15 times. While allthe money spent onl the provision of theworks that made such production possiblehas not been recovered, the productive capa-city of the State has increased to that ex-tent.

Hon. C. 0 . Latham: We are not sendingthat money out of the State.

The PREMIER: Sonic of it is still goingout of the State, but not so much. As amatter of fact, some of the increased goodsso produced'are being exported. I do notwant to be an advertising agent for theMurray-Wellington district, but I was in-terested to discover that up to 2,000 easesof condensed milk per week had been sentto the Eastern States in the last four orfive weeks.

Again, some of tile non-productive workundertaken from loan moneys has speededup the development of mining. Mining isclassified as partially reproductive, yet who

todvwould deny that the loan expenditureo Gdevelopment of mining in this State

is exceedingly reproductive9 Gold miningin the ]last six or seven vears has increasedto the value of £7,000,000. though admittedlynot all of that increased production hasbeen the result of the expenditure of loanruone,-. Much has been, due to the increasedprice of gold. Nevertheless a considerabletroportion of the increased production ha;been due to the expenditure of money inthe Zoldficlds area from which we are notdi rectly* getting back interest and sinkingLfulld payments.

Mr. Doneyv: What are the directions inwhich Yon spent money in the goldfieldiRreas?

The PREMTIER: I wvill tell the hon. inemn-her later: hut oiie instance comes% to mind.Norseman is one of the rising goldfields ofthe State. On that field a couple of Ycarago we spent over £960.000 inl order to pro-vide a water supllY, without which the fieldcould not hare progressed. Last year weexpended £3,000 in reticulation.

[1.7 NOVEMBER, 1038.120

Mr. Doney: The same has been done atWiluna, of course.

The PREMI1ER: Yes, and all over theplace. When it is remembered that thevalue of gold produced this year was greaterthan the combined value of wheat and wvoolnmemblers wvill agree that the investment of asmiall part of the public debt in the develop-nient and assistance of the gold mining in-dustry has been a wise move. The almountof mone11y we have expended from loanfunds on mining development is very smalliii comparison with what we have spent onland development.

The shortage in the direct revenue earn-ings, as compared with the charges for in-terest and sinking fund, is less than. halfthe amiount of special taxation yielded bythe g-old mining profits tax, and when -weattemipt to estimiate the far-reachingr co-noinie ganin to the whole State of the directemployment of thousands of men and ofthe distribution of most of the value of thegold won in wvages and mining costs, werealise how much we are indebted to thegold mining industry for the degree ofprosperity which to-day we enjoy. TheMinister for Mines can tell the House thatof the increased sum derived from gold pro-duetion a little over £C1,000,000 was paid individends, but the rest has gone in wagesand in other maintenance costs incidental toproduction. Some five or six years ago whenthe present Government was in office onlyabout 6.000 or 7,000 meii were employed inthe goldmnining industry, whereas to-day thefig-ure is between 17.000 and 1.8,000. Thei ndustry has thus proved of value to theGovernmnent by reducing the number of menfor whom emnplo 'yment has had to he fouiid.

HFon. C. G. Latham: The price of goldhas gone up, too. has it not.?

The PRIEMIER: Yes. and new g-oldfieldshave been opened up and new avennes forthe absorption of labouir thus created. Ofcourse the introduction of labour-savingdevices has reduced production costs on thegoldfields. I was there not so long, ago, andI notice that whereas at one time dozens ofmen were to he found above ground in andaround the plant, tn-day there are onlyabout two or three. So that while a con-siderable amiount of employment has beenfound as a result of the development ofmining, the provision of labour-saving-applianceps has enabled go ld to he producederononfleallY and at a profit.

Another undertaking to which the remarksI have already made could apply, thoughunfortunately to a lesser extent to-day, isthe assistanee given to agriculture. I amwell aware of the fact that, in the light ofexperience, expenditure on assistance to,agriculture has been too heavy. If we wverecommencing a new agricultural policy wewould pur'sue a different course. MIuchof our progress from a pioneeriigcolon ' to a well-established State, how-ever, is the result of a bold extension ofag-ricultura 1 development. [ reiniher thatwhen I was -Minister for Railwa ys I oncesaid we could do with :30 per c-ent, lessrailway imileaige and perforiu an eqluallyAdequate service for the people. There wasalso tot) much expenditure on group settle-inent. A good deal of the money was spentextraivagantly and was wasted. It we hadthat money again to spend in the samedirection we could dev'elop the State for halfthe cost. Nevertheless the expenditure ofmoney on such projects has been justifiedbecause new industries have been startedand the productive capacity of the couintryhas been increased. It is easy to say, "Youhave wasted money here and wasted moneythere," hut the fact remains that the expen-diture of the money has proved of value tothe State. Although it is difficult to getback the mioney by direct paymeiit, we mustall derive some benefit fr-om the increasedproductivity of the country.

Mr. Dlonn~y: Losses of that kind aire in-evitable in a new country.

The PREMIER: They always seemn tooccur; of that there is no doubit. We usedto hecar a good deat about the wonderfulland on the southern rivers of Newv SouthWales and the mangnific.ent fertility of thesoil in the northern districts. Wve heardalso of the g freat productive capac i ty ofsonic places in Gippsland, MAy opinion isthat with the increased use Of fertilisers.and the development of irrigationl anddrainiage, the fertility of the soil in theSouth-West of this State will equal that oifthe fertile lands of the Eastern Statesthat are capitalised at £C60 or £E70 an acre.It is gratifying also to know that people arehegiiining to recognise the productiveealpacit 'v of the land, and that there i : ademand for land. Mfain group holdinz; arC,liein. taken up by p~eople anxious to 'm" onland which has demonstrated its productiver-apac-ityv as that land has (lone.

2209

2210 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Douv'v A id( land with a reliablerinf all.

The PRtl&MIER: That is the outstatin_factor. Thle rainfall is probably the miostreliable in the world. There we call dependupon la in at certain seasons, whereas othercountries atl times have floods and at othertimecs dry periods. That brings inc to thefact that one of the pressing needs of theState is anl adequate supply of water inareals removed fromt the heavy rainfall. Ourgreatest difficulty and severest handicap arethe absence of a. good water shed 200 or 300muiles inland. Actually our water shed is atlaverage of 20 to 40 miles inland from thecoast. All our areas of heavy rainfall aresituated onl the western side of it and therivers carry that rainfall into the sea. Wehave to conserve that water, pumip it over thehills, and convey it to the inland areas wvhoserainfall is muchl lighter than that on thecoast. Temporarily water is provided byeatebmient areas in; those districts, but dur-ing- recent dry y ears those eatehnient areashave proved themselves totally inadequate.

Mir. floney: "Totally inadequate" is theright expression.

The PREMTIER: There is no dodging thatissue. Then we get back to the old story.ShallI we do the samec as we have done i aregard to group settlements? Can wedeliberately, with our eyes open~, undertakeanl expenditure of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000knowving that the retu rn we shall get fromnthle investment of that money directl 'y-Iwish to via phasise the word "di rect] l"-willl:e interest and sinking fund onl only aquarter of the expenditure? We neced anleconoicSn srvey of the wvhole position. Wemiust aseritain what benefit the water wvill beto thme productive capacity of the land.

Ail. Do)vy We cannot judge yet whetherthe schme will be economically advan-tngcous. We have no particulars of theschlemte.

'Tile PREMIER: Recently the Ministerfoi %iorkis gave through the Press certainparticulars of the scheme. Further partien-lar will be supplied. Neither the Ministerfor WVorks nor T nor anyone else, canl at thisstivue say what, the return will be from thep~r)loosd expenditure.

31r. Stubhs: Many farmers are deadagu-itis4t patying taxes.

Thle PREMIER : They rentind me of themember for 'MurraY-Wellington. Na fturally,thle farmers are opposed to pait iw taxes.

Member: Farmers are, all the world over.

Mkr. Raphael: Members of I an 18111(1 t ar,againlst it, too.

'f~wiIe MI~ :if people can get outor paying taxes, well an~d good. The fain-ens in question have their own water sup-plies: bitt the supplies of other farmters havegone dry, and those farmers are left stranded.Many farms could carry twice or three timiesthe stock they do carry if they had adequateand assured water supplies. Farmers arenot ga lte to buy stock in view Of ( he riskwith regard to water supplies.

Mir. Seward : That a pplies only in, certainareas.

-Mr. Doney: It does not apply in the GreatSouthern, Where there is a gr-eat deal ofwater.

The PR ERL~: But not safliejent.Afr. floney: Yes.The PREMIER: Then why all the ageita-

tion for water supplies'?Mir. Doney: Because the water cannot be

stored.The IPRE MIER: Then it is no good to the

farmers. Parliament will have anl oppor-tunity of discussing thle whole matter in thelight of what is intended to be dlone. WhenParliament, with its eyes wide open, decideswhat is to be done inl those districts, theGovernment will be ready to proceed. Asat present we cannot see the end of theproject, we are 'lot justified in going oilimmediately. We have been criticised on thescore of delay. Ini reply I say it is to beregretted there was not longer delay beforeWestern Australia entered upon someschemles; inl its history. The "West Austra-hl" said the Minister for Works and theGovernment had given anl example of theacme of procrastination and of M1arathon de-ly in this matter. However, irrespective ofwhat anybody says, before we embark ona scheme involving the expenditure of£E4,000,000, we are determined to have allpossible information. Then, if with its eyesopen Parliament decides to carry out thescheme, very well. But to start in, saying"We will discover later onl what we can getout of it," would be unjustifiable. Betterhave a delay than he sorry for the rest ofour lives.

NMr. Doney: Roughly, hlow much more de-lay nlay bie a nitieipjated

The CHAIRMAN: I think the Premierhad better not submit himself to cross-examiation.

[17 NOVEM1BER, 19:38.] 2 211

The IIREML1ER : For somle time past the

expert officers of the Government have been

investiglatingll proposals to provide adequatewater supplies throughout the agricultural

areas; and thollgh somec criticism has been

made about the delay in, publishing particu-lam's of what has been d]one, I amt satisfied

that no undue delay has occurred. If there

has, been, any' delay, 1 ant1 not sorry for it,

and I do noat think either the House or the

country' will lie sorr.'y. Trhe scheme, I. repeat,is estimautedt to cost £C4,000,000.

,%r1. Stubbs: If the cost is to be as much!as that, the Bill wvill not pass both Houses.

The PREMIER : The hon. member looks

only at his own district, but the scheme goesup as faa, as flalwvallilil and past LakeG'race and onl to the other side of Merredin.

ft covers about 6,000,000 acres. it is a hugesceel which will ake a tremendous dif-ference to the country, but wvhether we canl

afford it is something, that remains to be

determined. The country e ast of LakeBrow" is p~art of the scheme, ais well,as the areas southward to Onowanglerulp.and east to TLake Grace, northward as far as

Dalwalliun and on to districts east Of Dal-wallinu. Tt also reaches to Geraldton. Thesemte represents a big question r~equiring

a aeat deal of consideration.Ifr. Doney, : will it permit of being put

into operation piecemeal9

The PREMIER: Yes, it will. That is oneof the reasons why, there has been some de-lay. We are now considering whether POr-lion of the scheme shall he put in for thepeople who need it. If Katanning andWagin do not want it, they will not get it.To convey an1 idea of the magnitude of the

schemle, to everybody, , let me point out thatits coal; will lie a tremendous liability to be

carried by a population of less than half-a-million. The only scheme comparable to itis the g-oldficlds water scheme, on which£3,000,000 w'as spent by a population of200,000. We are less than half-al-million now.and here is a £4,000,000 or P5,000,000 schemeto lie considered. It must receive a greatdeal of consideration. Tt will havei to betested from various angles, and time willhave to he taken over that. I do not mindif another IS months' investigation is givento it so long as we k-nowv where we are whendiscussing it. It seems inevitable that thepeople who will receive the water will notbe able to pay for the scheme itself. Every-

thing, depends onl the attitude of Parliamentwith regard to the proportion to be debitedto those people, ;lnd( the proportion to beinationalised, or spread amtongst the taxpay-ers of the State. The financial burden of theschleme is such that it will absorb a largepropor~tionl of the loan money available. Inthe meantime we must get on with a fewlittle jobs that we have to do. When theState does embark onl the big scheme, prac-Iicallv all the loan moniey available will beabsorbed. The cost wvill bte about £1,333,000annually l ot three or four years. So therewvill not be much money available for otherPurpss

'Mr. Doney: The scheme will be a relief to'lte Minister for Employment.

The PREMLIER: There is that aspect alga.With those few introductory remarks I getback to the Loan Estimates.

Turning now to a consideration of theMgures themselves, we find that the estimatedlo)an expenditure for this year is £1.807,845,which compares with last year's actual ex-pentliture of V2.315,004.

Railways and tramway' s last year- absorbed£472,101, and this year's provision is£280O,000, showing a dlecrease of £192,101.The reduction in the estimate for the car-rent financial year is due prima rily to thefact that expenditure and commitments forrolling stock and trolley buses were muchgreater in .19.37-38 than what is requiredthis year..

On additions and improvements to opened]railwvays last year's expenditure was£1394,925 The work consisted chiefly of re-ballasting, deviations and regrading. in-Jprovenlents to water supplies, installation ofmechanical coaling plants, machinery' for theMlidland Junction workshops, and additionsand improvements generally. The principalworks were Toodyay-Bolgart ballasting.Quairading-Monnt Hardy deviations and re-grading, Mferredin-Southern Cross deviation

and rgdig, strengthening of bridges.Mlullewva-Onec ballasting, and water suppliesat MAullewva and Pithara. This year's provi-sion, £200,000, is for work of a similarnature, and includes new dlams and roofinzof dams to increase existing water suppliesso as to meet the demands of traiffic. Mechan-ical coaling plants are being provided atvarious centres to replace existing coal binlsanid thus expedite loading arrangements andeffect economy, by reduction of bandlin.2costs and of costs of maintenance of present

2212 [ASSEMBLY.]

structures. While it is gratifyving that weshall have more of our rolling stock manu-factured in the State, before one carriage ortruck is available we must spend a largeamount of money in providing the necessarymachinery. Provision has been made forthe balance of plant required at MidlandJunction for the five-year rolling stock con-struction programme, and also for buildingadditions needed for dealing efficiently andeconomically with the large amount of workcarried out in the shops, more especially inmaintenance and renewal of rolling stock.

For rolling stock the amount provided thisyear is £60,000, which compares with lastyear's expenditure of £203,860. Last year'samount included an expenditure of £54,000on tail ears, besides commitments on otherlarge items. The provision for the currentfinancial vear is intended to enable the de-partmient to continue with the rolling stockprogramnme in order to meet the increasingrequirements of traffic. The rail cars havebeen operating from various country centressince December last, and have proved verysatisfactory from the viewpoint of the de-partment and the public generally. The sixmonths' operations have resulted in a stir-plus of £5,539, after meeting interest, de-preciation and working expenses. The de-tails arc set out in the Commissioner's, reportfor the year ended the 30th June last. Iremember when we were discussing the sub-ject of rail cars three or four 'Years ago, itwas agreed that it would be wise to spendthis money. We have bad experience of tbeears, and our hopes, expressed at that time,have been realised by actual results.

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: They should havebeen purchased years before because we werelosing all that traffic.

The PREMNIER: There are many thingswe should have done years before- Perhapswe should have secured the trolley busesbefore.

H4on. C. G. Latham: I still think that thetrolley buses represent a waste of publicmoney.

Mr'. Marshall: Can the Premnier tell uswhether the trolley buses will be taken toSouth Perth?

Mr. Cross. That would he a fine propo-sition.

Mr. Marshall: It would he better if -wehad a trolley bus service from the town ofWiluna to the mine.

The PREMIER.: Events have fully' justi-fled the installation of the trolley buses. Iknow that the Leader of the Opposition willnever agree that the Government acted wiselyin this direction; public support, however,proves that this form of transport is appre-ciated.

Mr. Doncy: Have the buses bad a detri-mental effect on the tramway systemn?

The PREMIIER: 'No.Mr. Seward: What about the suburban

railway traffic?Hton. C. G. Lathanm: It cost a good deal

to remove the train rails from Stirling-highway.

The PREMIER: I know that the traffichas more than doubled itself since the in-auguration of the service. That proves thatthere was need for the change.

Mr. Cross:. And the buses can be ran for6d. or 7d. per mile less than it costs to runthe trains.

The PREMIER: A few words aboutelectricity supply. Last year £30,000 wasprovided to meet conmmitments in connec-tion with the new ''B" staftlon. The totalestimated cost is approximately £662,009and the expenditure to the 30th June, lastwas £C538,050. As final payments will notbe made until 12 months after the new unithas been taken over, loan funds will not herequired this year. Trials are at presentbeing made and it is expected that thestation will be in operation on the 1stSranuary next.

On the subject of harbours and rivers,the expenditure last year was £92,167, andthe estimate for the current year is £937,500.The construction of Victoria Quay and"H" shed was completed at the end ofSeptember, 1937. This work concludedthe reconstruction of the whole ofVictoria Quay, and the rearrangement andalteration to the sheds, railway tracks,roads, etc. Similar work is now proceed-ing on the North Wharf. Reclamation workcon the Swan River foreshore was proceededwith and is being carried on this year, thelocal authorities concerned providing ap~roportion of the cost.

Hon, C. G. Latham: How much are youproviding for that?

The PREMIER: It all appears in the Es-timates. The local authorities are pro-viding £5,000 or £C6,000. Expenditure onthe Point Samson jetty reconstruction was£24,392. This work has beeun completed and

2212

[17 NOVEMBER, 1938.] 2213

the jetty was opened to shipping last Feb-ruary. An amount of £10,000 has been pro-vided for improvements to harhours andrivers. A sum of tll,000 has been providedfor work on the Northi-West jetties geer-ally, including- rolling stock.

Onl water aupplies, sewerage and drain-age throngliout the State, the expenditureJeast year was £903,577, and the amountprovided for .1938-39 is £911,300. As indi-eating the impJorta ne of these works, it isonly neccssary to state that half the loanmoney to be expended this year wvill bedevoted to the undertakings Luder' thisheading-. Regarding town water supplies,the expenditure during- 1937-38 on the fler-aldton water supply was £11,440, wvhich in-cluded boring for water at Wicherina, re-conditioning reticulation mains, extensionsand improvements generally. This is thethird successive winter of light rainfallin this area, and, as mighlt he expected, ye-stilted in a poor judlo"w of water. The re-sult of this was additional boring which,together with the reticulation of the town,is proceed ing in a very satisfactory manl-11 t] .

flb,. C2. (;. Latham: Where are you put-ting the bore-at Wicherina?

The l'IE-MlER :No, right in the townof Gecraldton. Improvements to the townwater supplies at Narrogin, Derby andBridgetown were also carried out. At Nay-rogin the water position wvas very acuteand necessitated improvements to thecatchient area and the provision of pump -ing plant. Ali amnount of £12,000 has beenprovided for the Blruns wick town and ril-way water supply. The erection of tanksandi wells on stock routes has also beenprovided for.

Onl metropolitan sewverage and] drainagethe expenditure last year was £28.5,971,while for this year the prov'ision made is£E334,000, an increase of £98,023. During-the year sewerage works and storniwaterdrains were carried out in the differentsuburbs, and( this work is being continued.

JIprov-emen ts and ex tensions were madeto existing mains in the metropolitan area.During the year satisfactory progress wasmade with the Canning Dam, the wall beingraised to a height of iS0ft., with a storagecapacity of approximately 7,000,000,000gallons. It is expected that by the 30thJune, 1939, the wvall will he 102ft. high , andthe storage capacity will be 9,000,000,000

gallons. Thus we should be quite sate inrespect of water supplies for the metropoli-tan area for some years to come. Up to theend of June, 1938, the expenditure on thedam was £712,723 and indications are thatthe work will be completed well within theestimate of £1,250,000. Indeed, we believethat the total cost will be about £100,000under the estimate. Credit must he givento all those who have been associated withthe under taking and it must not be forgottenthat a great deal of the work carried outthere was performed by relief workers, menwho had never had experience of that kind.The supervising staff and the engineers con-nected with this great work are also due forcommendation.

.Por the goldfields water supply, provisionmade this Year totals £C19.5,000 as against£218,749 last year. Thle principal workscarried out last year were-the completionof the reticulation of the Norsemnan town-site at a cost of £3,105; the proviion atNorthanm of a new service reservoir of1,000,000 gallons to improve the townsuply : tile cement linling of thle reticulationmains of Northami. Heverleyv. Toodvay andKalgoorlie was commenced; the mines maninat Kalgoorlie was increased in eapacits- byreplncing with 2Oin. cemient-lined 'steelpipes, all equivalent length of lin,. eastiroll pipes that had been in use since 1903,and which had become inadequate to supplythe increased demand for water by themines. The work of renovating the mainconduit was continued. During- the year1%E miles of new -l0in, cement-lined steelpipes wvere installed and 293/s miles of theoriginal maill were replaced by cement-i medrenovated l0in, locking bar: pipes. Thiswork accounted for the greater part of theexpenditure and will be continued duringthe current year. 'Besides reducinig leakag'e,and renovation costs vcry considerably, thework will ensure the useful life of thle "lainbeinz prolonged indefinitely. The cementlining of pipes for branch reticulation lminswvill he continued. Other works provided forinclude imp rovemuents anad extensions tobranch mains, service reser~voirs and theusual extensions to town retienlations .

The expenditure on water supplies inothler goldflelds was as follows:-

Last Year. Tlhi9 Year.

Faster,, (felerlsMarehison GoldIfleldsPilhara Goldfields

E£721 rl,000

4.q65' 8000o-500

[ASSEMBLY.]

The principal works last year were-im-provements; to Afeekatharra water supply,provision of a water supply at Youaniand boring at Big Bell. Provision has beenmiade this year for reticulation of Big Belltotrasite, improvements to Cue water supply,boring for water at Evanston and reticula-tions and extensions generally.

On water suipplies, irrigation and draimagein agricultural areas we spent last year£117,214 and this year's provision amnountsto £230,000. Last year the expenditure wason account of Collie and Waroona, irriga-tion channel lining, and irrigation and drain-age generally in the South-West, the provi-sion of tanks in the agricultural areas, andthis is being continued this year. The pro-vision and improvement of water suppliesto the goldfields, to which I have justreferred, cover one of the main necessitiesin the development of mining. An illustra-tion of this is afforded by the growth of themining industry at Norseman.

In the development of the goldfields(apart from water supplies) the expenditurelast year was dS2,475, and this year a sumof £41.000 has been provided, ant increase of£.12,52.5. The expenditure last year was forpurposes similar to those in previous years,being principally for assistance to prospec-tors, the erection and improvement of Statebatteries, and loans made under the MiningDevelopment Act. The expenditure onassistance to prospectors was £C5,856, ofwhich £1,831 was repaid by the personsassisted. During the five years in whichthis scheme has operated, we have advanced£C98,986 and the repayments have totalled£18,764. The assistance ranted has beensupplemented by rants from the Common-wealth Government. of which last year thesum of £19,910 was expended. Tip to the30th June last, the amount of Common-wealth money advanced to prospectors was£79,734.

With the exception of £3,000 of Com-monwealth money unexpended at the 30thJune last, the State this year has to meetthe full cost of assistance to prospectors,the Commonwealth grants having nowceased. A sum of £21,000 has thereforebeen provided for the purpose. The miningindustry is of such importance, and hasgrown to so great an extent, that additionalexpenditure must be incurred to render thepreliminary help) necessary for the eon-soTidation of new gold finds and the pro-

vision of additional battery facilities.Arrangements have been made to increasethe size of the State batteries at Marble Barand Mt. Magnet, and to provide a newcyanide plant at Coolgardie. When oppor-tunity offers, generous assistance will begiven as in the past, so that we may helpthe industry which has done so much forthe development of the State, particularlyduaring- depressed conditions in otherbranches of production. Whenever requestsare made to inc for money, I shall have nohesitation in doing my utmost to supply theneed. Western Australia owes a debt ofgratitude to the mining industry for whatit has done for the State.

The expenditure on the development ofagriculture, forestry, etc., last year was£154,395, and this year we have provided£C176,500, an increase of £C22,107. Theexpenditure on abattoirs last year was£2,965, this being for additions and im-provements to the establishments at MidlandJunction and Kalgoorlie. The amount pio-vided this year, £3,000, is for similar work.The item "Development of agriculture" isfor reconditioning vacant holdings, landcleairing at Wooroloo and Whitby Falls,set tlement at Nannup, Nornalup andAlbany, and experimental work and build-ings on the Avondale and Wongan HillsState Farms. The expenditure last yearwas £-81,294, and this year we are providing£94,500, this being for work of a similarnature. The expenditure of £8,471 underthe heading of "Assistance to settlers, indus-tries, etc." was for advances to pearlers andbanana-growers, and a sum has been pro-vided this year for a similar purpose. Theamounts will not cover what we havealready granted by way of assistance. Wehave advanced £.15,000 or £16,000. I hopethis will be returned before the end of thefinancial year, and for that reason it doesnot appear on the Loan Estimates.

Hon. C. G. Latham: That is for thepearling industry.

The PREMIER: To keep that industrygoing. The Minister for the Interior pro-mised, after his visit, that the policy ofproviding a bounty would he adopted bythe Federal Government. Unfortunately,owing to contrary influences, we do not knownow what is going to happen. We hopethat seine assistance will be provided. Fail-ing that, the outlook for the pearling in-dnstrv will be anything but good. Unless

[17 NOVEmBE.R, 1938.] 21

a large stim of monley is made available,most of which will not be returned, it seemsthat the pearling industry will go out of.existence. We intend to make a big effortto prevent this, but a fairly large volumeof assistance will have to be given by theiCommnonwealth Government.

LU1t year the expenditure Onl foiestry wa~s£61.576, in addition to which we received£C25,000 fromt the Federal Government as thefinal contribution under the Conmmonwea lthAid to Forestry Scee. We arc g-ettingto the end of the assistance that the FederalGovernment renders to thle State iii respectof several different aspects of development.To provide employment, the CornmionwealIth"ave £E100,000 for forestry, and a consider-able amount for mining. This year wereached the end of the grants provided bythe Commonwealth. The requiremients fordefence are such that the Federal Governi-ment cannot continue to make money avail-able to the States, and work that has beendone with the help of the Commonwealthwill no"' have to be carried out by the State.At any rate, the utilisation of such amounts-is we have had has enabled an extensiveprogramnme of work to be carried out, in-eluding the regeneration of cut-over larraliad karri forests, the establishment of mal-

let plantations, the maintenance and exten-sion of pine plantations, and a considerableamount of road andi fire prevention con-strucltion. A sum of £75,000 has been pro-vided this year for the carrying onl of thiswork. This is approximately £13,000 in e'x-teas of last year's expenditure, due to thetermination of the Conmuonwealth grant.

The amount set down for roads andhridges is £e50,966, hut this includes £C37,466spent last year and charged to suspense, asthere was not sufficient loan authorisation.The amount of new money, therefore, is only£13,500, and this is required to meet coin-mitments left over from last year. So faras new works are concerned, I am hopefulit will not be necessary for us to incur anyloan expenditure upon roads. If the neces-sity a rises, we may have to do it for thepu rpose of finding employment, though Ihope the outlay will be small. The expendi-ture last year was principally in respect ofassistance to local authorities, uinder thescheme which I explained in my opening re-ma rks.

A sumi of £9,000 has been provided this.year to continue the small loans scheme

inaugurated in 1933 under the administrai-tion of the Workers' Homnes Board. Nomone 'y has been provided for this for soinetimie. When building was active, it was notthle policy of thle Government to coutinulefinding money f or this purpose. There isnow somec slight falling-off in building activ-ity, and we are providing for an extensionof the scheme, which besides assisting em-ploymient and being a convenience to thepublic, has been satisfactory front time fin-anicint standpoint. We have not lost ainy,nioncy provided uinder the small loansscheme.

The expenditure last year onl public build-ings was £81,084, and was for the erectionof and additions and improvements toschools, police stations, courthouses, publicbuildings generally, the sewering of publicbuildings, machinery for the GovernmentPrinting 0ffice, and the Government's por-tion of the cost of the Infectious DiseasesHospital. The expenditure allowed for thisyear is £92,000. Included in the provisionis a grant to time Hospital Fund to assistin meeting the cost of new buildings, includ-ing the f und's portion of the cost of the newKing Edward M3aternity Hospital. TheLeader of the Opposition will recall that thecost of the upkeep o( Wooroloo has beenhanded over to the Hospital Fund. Thisleft the fund short of money with whichto provide necessary buildings elsewhere, andwe have found it necessary to inakc a gianltto assist the fund.

Ani amount of £5,500 has been providedfor water supplies on native stations, thepurchase and reconditioning of settlements,and additions and improvements to nativehospitals. The Workers' Homes Board hasbeen given additional capita] of £10,000,with which to augment the repayments ofcapital and assist in providing some of thehousing requirements of the people. Con-siderable progress has been made with therebuilding of Cave House at Yallingup. Itis hoped to have this completed in time forthe tourist season. The expenditure lastyear, including commitments already enteredinto, was £18,922, and £6,500 has been pro-vided this year to complete the work. Asum of £3,500 has been allotted for the pur-chase of a new laumich for the -South Perthferry service. The expenditure last year onthe new ship "Koolama" was £215,325. Ofthis, £212,800 represented the balance ofthe purchase price paid in London. The re-

2215

216[ASSEM1BLY.]

mainder, £2,525, was for legal and othercosts incidental to the purchase. Trho provi-sion of £12,,000 this year represents the netcost of bringing the ship out, jand pre-paring it specifically for the _North-West.service. The vessel, which made it first tripon the North-West coast last MWay, has beenmiost successful in her running) and she isproving a great acquisition to the service.

This completes my story of our loanundertakings. It is, I believe, a story ofsteady progress towards the building up ofa well-balanced economy, which must be ouraim. The (loverument hats a difficult task indeciding in which direction the limited loanfunds at its disposal should be expended.We must of necessity refuse requests -which,to those who submit them, appear reason-able anid necessary, because of lack of fundsand of miore pressing needs in other diree-tiou-s. It we had unlimited funds, there ismuch work we could rio. It is, however,essential to keep our expenditure in stepwith our progress, and it is probably to ouradvantage that we should exercise the great-est cautionl in cthoosing the works to beundertaken. In common with the early his-tory of most countries, this State has con-centrated on the development of primary in-dustry. Although expensive from the stand-point of loan indebtedness, this policy hasled to a solid and sound foundation beinglaid.

It is an axiomi that no country can becomereally great without commensurate industrialprog-ress in its secondary industries. Oneneeds only to look at the history of OreatBritain, America and], more recently, Japan.to realise that the power and influence ofnations grrow proportionately to their indus-trial development. Australia generally hasmnade great forward strides in the last fewyears. I1-f we in this State are to continueadvancing our relative importance, progressand development, we must plan to have marediversified industries, preferably manufac-turing mnore commodities that are neces-sary for our own reqluirements. Wththe establishment of a bureau of in-.dnstry indicating whore and how Govern-ment encouragement and assistance shouldbe given, T amn hopeful that in the yearsinmmediately ahead of us the Loan Estimates-will he altered in principle so that we have

abatter-balanced development.Althoughi our primary industries have sat-

fered a sptliack bleause of adverse %ssnal

codtos. regard that as only a passingp)hase, although serious in its consequencesto the State. A still more serious aspect isthe uncertainty of the prices that our com-modities in the future will realise.

lion. P. D. Ferg-uson: That may not bea, passing phase.

The PREIK.ER: The adverse climiatic con-ditions are a passing phase, but we do notknow hlow far we shall have to go beforewe come to the end of the low price phase.If, however, wve can maintain our primaryproduction, and progress with our otherpotential industries, we need have no fearor alarm abouit the future. On the contrary,we should he able to look ahead with entireconfidence, believing that the people of the,Staqte will he afforded ample opportunity toachieve security andl prosperity.

Progress reported.

.S'itlinq stvspcmmded froni 6. 1. to 7.30 PImt

BILLS (2)-THIRD READING.

1, Visheries Ade Ameindmnent (No. 2).

2, Rond D)istricts Act Amendment(No. 2).

'r-a snitte1 to the Council.

BILLS (2-RETURNED.

1. Financial Emergency Tax.

2Financial Emergency Tax AssessmentAct Amendment.

Withoot amendment.

BILL-INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT ACTAMENDMENT (No. 2).

Second Reading.

THE PREMIER (Hon. J. C. Wilicoek-C(Ieraldton) [7.331 in moving the secondreading said : The Bill is similar to thatwhich was intiroduced a few days ago, buthas- since beenl withdrawn, with thle excepl-tion that the provision dealing with rates ofdeduction to be made as rnntrilbutionstowards thle ineomel tax to be sts'v later.,has be-en deleted. T have alreadyv explainedlthe provisions of the Bill and feel it un-neC{'ssnry to repeat what I said previously-A separate Bill wvill be introduced im-

2216

[17 Novamann, 19:38.] 2217

mnediately dealing with the rates deduction.I move-

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Oin motion by Hon. C. G. Lathiaim. debate41121oil lICd.

BILL-INCOME TAX (BATESFOR DEDUCTION).

Second Beading.THE PREMIER (Hon. J. C. Willcock-

Gera Idton ) [7.35] in moving the secondreading said: This Hill is complementary tothe one( I have just jplaced before members.It is short and the purpose is simiple. Thein troduct ion of the Bill has been rendereditecessary because the House took some ex-ct1 )tion to thle inclusion in the one Bill of

riovision for the collection of instalmwent,of income tax. When the comprehensiveBill was introduced, a point of order wasra ised regarding the inclusion of that p)rovi-sion. I considered then that the Bill was iniorder and I still think so. OnL the otherhland, I do not desire to delay the passage ofan important Bill by discussing technicali-ties, particularly as the difficulty is easilyovercomec by the introduction of the presentBill, which is in accord with the Standing-Orders and in order in every way. If thisis the method members consider the better,I certainly have no objection to dividing thecomprehensive Bill into two measuresI sothat both phases may be discussed sep-irately. Naturally the Bill must be read inconjunction with the Income Tax AssessmentAct Amendment Bill (No. 2), the secondreading of which I have just moved. TheBill deals with deductions only and the ratesare the same as those included in the originalBill. They are 6d. in the pound on allwages and salaries under £8, and 9d. in thepound on all wages or salaries exceeding £8.Menmbers will see that deductions may bemade despite the fact that Parliament maynot have fixed the rate of tax to be imposed.A person would have to be a super-optimistif he thought the State could do without theincome tax altogether.

Mr. Watts: We may dreamn about it.The PREMIER: We all know such a Bill

must be introduced and that, in accordancewith the reception of such measures duringrthe last 25 years, will be passed in one formor another. The Bill provides that pendingthe fixing of the rate of tax, payments mayhe made in instalmnents, notwithstanding

that assessments of income tax have notbeen issued. The system outlined has beenin op eration in Victoria and South A us-tralia, and the legislation is somewhat similarto that operating in Great Britain. Thesystem al)pa rentlv meets with generial lea-epta ne by those who have to pay the tax.NaturalPly the arrang-ement dles not su it tile(ICpartmient w'hose convenience would be mletto a greater degree if one puaimeat on lywere involved. In that event, one receiptwvould he tendered and thle whlole transactionwould he completed. Onl the other hand, thesystem has p~roved of conven iece to tilepublic. I anticiplate that sonme diflfieuIty willbe ex periecimed ait the in~cep~tion, but whenthle scheme is in working order, I think (heeffect in Western Australia will be similarto that in other States wvhere it has beenadopted, and no desire wvill be indicated toreturn to the system of one Jum p sumn pay-mecnt. Thle proposal for the payment ofinstalnieats prior to assessment will, I be-lieve, meet with, the approval of themajority of taxpayers. I move-

That the Bill be now read a second time.

On, notion by Hon. C. G. Latham, debateadjourned.

ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1938-39.In Committee of Supply.

Resumed from the 15th November; Mr.Sleeman in the Chair.

Public Utilities:

Vote-Railways, Tramways, Ferries andElectricity Supply, £a,315,200:

MR. SEWARD (Pingelly) [7.40]: 1 havenot a great deal to say on the Railway Esti-mates, because during the Address-in-replydebate I dealt with matters affectingthe administration of the railways. Thefirst subject I shall mention was indieatedin the questions I asked the Minister thisafternoon in connection with the Kalgoorlierefreshment room. To me it is a pity thatvisitors fromt the Eastern States can findcause for complaint under that heading. Imet some who arrived the other day, andwhen I asked them how they enjoyed thetrip, they said everything was quite all rightexcept the meals supplied at the Kalgoorlierefreshmncnt room.

Mr. Warner: They must have had one ofGormnan's pies!

[ASSE-MBLY.]

Mr. SEWARD: I asked if they intendedto lodge a complaint, and they said theyproposed to do so. Apparently they did notcarry out their intention. This is by nomeans the first time a complaint has beenvoiced regarding the railway refreshmentzooms. Considerable timec has elapsed sinceI last travelled over the Transcontinentalrailway, but I recollect that on that occasionthe best meal served throughout the journeywas thle one after we left Kalgoorlie. Thatwas the unanimous opinion of the pas-sengers. The meal was by no means elabo-rate. As tile memiber for Kalgoorlic (Mr.Styants) said last nuight, an elaborate mealis not required onl the train. At any rate,I think it ;I pity that inter-State pas-sengers could voice a complaint about themeal provided by the Kalgoorlie refreshmentroom. The matter should be looked intoby the Minister because, as I said befor,,this is by no mecans the first complaintregarding the refreshment rooms underthe charge of thle preseiit lessee.Ini the Commissioner's annual report,he mentioned that lust vear criticl imwas offered reg-arding' the State railway InIcomparison with those of South Africa. In1his comments the Commissioner refers solelyto the financial phase. Last ye'ar I wasparticularly careful when comipajing ourrailways with those of South AfVrica to ex-elude financial -onsiderations because it isimpossible to compare thie two systemisf romn that aspect. In South Africathe Commissioner of Railways deals notonlyv with the railways. but wvith harbiours.VCoal mines, airways, and other servicesand the whole concern has a eapitalisationof, if I renlelabel' arighlt, about £1.51,000,000.Consequently, I would inot. dream of corn-paring our1 railway system wvith that ofSonltb Africa. The criticism I offered waswitli regard to flte provision for thle travel-linir public. T cannot allow the Commis-sioner to get away with his comments asthough the. criticism related to financialconsiderations. Onl the other hiand, I comn-niended the South African authoritiesfor the mainner in which they had( overcomewhat is described as unfair competitionlarising from the use of motor trucks. Theyimproved their passenger accommodation,and speeded up the railways with the resultthat the lost passenzer traffic was larg-elyreovered.

The Minister for Railways:. But the rail-,wars control the road traffic. in -South

Africa. If they lost traffie., to whom dlidthey lose it?

Mr. SEWARD: They) regained their pas-senger traffic. I quoted the figures lastYear. I think the passeng-er truffle regainedrepresented, iii four years, somethinglike 20,000,000 passenger journeys, where-as in this State' we were loigand are still losing, our passenger traffic.I shall deal with that phase a little later.The member for Canning (Mr. Cross) com-mented upon the financial results of ourrailway system and attempted to show thaton all the undertaking.s under the controlof the Comm issioner-f erries, electricitysupJply, tramways and railways-a surplusof £12,'000 had been disclosed. I desire todraw attention to ikie tollowingt ll2aalrliill the report of the Auditor General-

Tile interest charge brouight into the ''Com-mneil Accouints'' prepared by the. Railwaysis lower and, presumabily does unot include ex-change, consequently their accounts arc pre-sentedi on a more faniur-Alle ba1sis than thloseof other concerns.

It is eitraordinary that while other Stateconcerns include exchnge in their interestcharges, the Rail way Department shouldomit it and consequently he able to '-resenta more favourable, balance sheet. That isnot right, 'The general rule should applyin the Railway Department, so that its ac-

~ounits canl undergo the samle rests as thosecOf other' departmel(nts.

I regret to lenin that the bulk lrandlinzfacililties that were prominsed for Frenmantlehave not been proceeded with, because theremay be a difficulty in seolling our wheat thisyear and the question of storing it will prob-ably arise. I am aware that the money we-hoped to obtain from the Loan Council toprovide this facility was not obtained. That,however, need not have deterred the Govern-nient, as the Comipany concerned is atlei, ifnecessary, to obtain capital and build theworks, without (., to the Government. itwould pay thle Government to let the comi-pany erect the works, because then truckswould he liberated and the hanidlingQ of ourwheat materially facilitated. Some consider-ation should be given to the offer of thlecompany to erect this facility. I dlo not re-ga1rd Islc'gitimnate thle excuse that theoGovernment has not the mioney available toproceed with the works,

I congratulate the departme~nt upon thefact that last year 52 new CXA trucks wereconstructed and put into commission. r

[17 NovnianF, 1938.] 2

notice the department is mtaking provisionfor another 50 of these trucks. They' arevery valuable and have been favourablycommented upon since they were first puitonl the line. The intimation that this extraprovision is being, made will be pleasing tothe producers of fat lambs and sheep owners.The other nig-ht the 'Minister commentedupon the fact that the department had beenforced to provide open trucks for the car-ringe of sheep last year, hat that was niotthe fault of thle department. It was thle faultof the brokers for arranging sales on suc:-eceeding clays. I was able to prove by corres-pondenceL that the brokers did not -ire thedepartment sufficient time, in may opinion, toprovide trucks. The brokers conducted asale of 10,000 or 16,000 sheep onl a particu-lnr day, and ordered the trucks only on themorning of the sale. Obviously, the depart-mm'nt was not given a fair chance to providethe trucks. I express the thanks of thesheepowners, of the State for the provisionby the department of the extra trucks. Atth same time, T desire to renew the appli-cation I made some time ago that when largebogey trucks are supplied to sheep ownersin the southern part of the State, provisionshould be made to divide the trucks into twocompartments. I understand that is niot re-quired by the pastoralists in the north. Ththe Great Southern districts, however, thesheep are loaded at the side and get a veryrough passage in the truck. There is at larg-enumber of sheep in each truck and, withthe shaking and the jerking, they are hangedfrom one end of the truck to the other, theresult being that miany are injured and somekilled before the arrival of the train at Mlid-land Junction, I hope the Comis-sionerwill favourably consider this request.

I notice fromn the Commnissioner's reportthis year that there is a falling- off of 632,527in the number of suburhan passenger jour-revs. 'Fhe Commuissioner says-

The substantial decrease in thre suburbantrafie-612,-527 journeys for £tO,476--althoughdisconcerting, was not unexpected. Investiga-tion disclosed time falling off was mainly be-tween Perthi and Prenmantle, wrhere road faci-lities arc excellent 1both for private ears androad relicles.

Whee introducing these Estimates, the "Min-ister Said that a fair niumber of new trolleybuses hand been put into service. The Pre-inier, when speaking on the Loan Estimatesto-day, said that the trolley buses hav*becomie popular and arc well patroni-

ised. That is obivious. People, wantthe most up-to-date and bust meanisof transport. N-o one would contend to-dazythat the railways, or even fihe tramway.,are superior to trolley* buses. I submit forthe Minister's consideration the suggecs-tion that the department should considerseriously whether thle time has not arrivedwhen the department should abandon sub-urban railway traffic altogether. When thisform ol transport was introduced, it wasthe best available and naturally receivedthe patronage of the peoplu. The railway-s

adtratilways Were, howver~, lIn i do ilin the miore closely settled suburban areas.Times have ehanged. I venture to say thetrain service is no longer convenient to 75per cent. of the sLtburban areas. Conse-quently, the mode of travel for the futurewilt ho motor huses and trolle y buses.

The Chairman of the -Melbourne Train-ways Trust has only recently returnedfronm a world tonr, after having madec athorough investigatioii i to tranasport p~rob-lems in v'arious parts of the world. Onlhis return lie detinitoly said that trolleybuses wvould not be instal led in Melbournebecause they -were no longer the mlost up-to-date ileans of transport. Of course, thleCollie coal question larg-ely inlfluencesi usin the use of trolley burses. 1 bring thispiarticular phase under thle Minister's no-tice, however, so that he may give it con-sideration when the extension of travel-ling facilities to our outer suburban areasis under discussion. There should be 210further extension of the tramiway system.

The Minister for Railways: The Mel-boune Tramways Trust is Putting oildouble-deck buses.

MNr. SEWARI): Only for thle outer dis-tricts.

The Minister for Railways: In Bourke-street,

Mr, SEWARD: No.The Minister for Railways: The chair-

manl must have changed his mi rid, becausehie said the trust intended to elee-trity thetramnway system.

Mr. SEWARD: I will send the Minis-ter the cutting froin which I obtained myinformation, so that he may correct him-self. The chairmnan of' thre MelbourneTramw~vay Trust said he was imnporting anew engine froin Gerrmany which, in hisOpinion, would revoluitionise the transportbusiness. T think Errin is the name of th-*

2219

[ASSEM.BLY.]

engine. If I uan not mistaken it is a gaseng-ine. At all events, this authority, thechairmeon of the trust-I take it be is anautliority-vAS sient Home11 to iniquire intothe- matter. 11c is convinced that the Errinengine is the engine of the future. Hem-ade tho statemtent that trolley buses wereno loiigcr the best meians of coping w'ithlarge suburban traffic. Since reading that!eporl, I notice that trolley buses are los-ing- favour in Enigland. I do not press theabandonment of trolley buses in this State,because they ate necessary to safeguardthe interests of our Collie coal miners. Iaaiii urge the Minister that the questionof the abandonment of the suburban rail-way traffic should be seriously considered,because in my opinion that money could beused to better advantage in other partsof the State.

I wish particularly to mention countrybranch lines, which are in the same stateto-day as they were 25 or 30 years ago.Mixed passenger and goods trains run overthese lines, and some of the trains occupynine hours for a journey of 80 miles. Irefer to the line between Kondinin andNarrogin. On arrival at Narrogin, one hasto stay there overnight and continue thejourney to Perth the next day. In my-opinion, branch lines should have Dieselcars. These are provided on the main linesfrom Perth to Katanning and Merredin.Passengers on those lines travel comfort-ably and fast enough; hut settlers alongthe branch lines in country areas, who haveso many difficulties and troubles to over-conic, arc the people who should be pro-vicded with fast passenger trains. I am,convinced, as I said last year and onother occasions, that if Diesel cars wereprovided for the branch lines, the railwayswould receive greater patronage. It is onlybecause a journey over branch lines toPerth occupies two or three days that thepeople in those districts are forced to dis-regyard the railways and avail themselves.of motor ears or trucks.

The Minister for Railways: There arenot enough people on the branch lines topatronise the railways.

Mr. SEWARD: I amn convinced that thepeople in those country areas would travelby train if the facilities were improved. Ihope the Minister will give consideration tomy suggestion. When introducing thesw.Estimates, the Minister told us that the Kad-

goorliv express had been speeded up, andhe mentioned that the eng-ines on that linehad beeii renamed. I seriously ask him ifhe will consider renaming the engines oIL theAlbany lineL, if it will have the effect ofspeeding- up the Albany express.

The Minister for Railways : That expresstravelS at the rate of 40 miles an hour.

Mr. SEWARD: I think it unfair thatpeople travelling fromn Albany to Perthshould have to put up with so miany stopsen route, even including stops at suburbanstations from Midland Junction to Perth.I do not wvant the express to travel at 40miles an hour; that would probably be un-safe' on our lines.

The Minister for Railwayvs: but theAlbany express does travel at that speed.

Mr. SEWARD: Many delays at smallcountry stations, such as Spencer's Brook,should be avoided. On Friday nights theAlbany express leaves Perth and stops onlyat Midland Junction, Chidlow and Spencer'SBrook. The same stops are made on thejourney when the train arrives in Perth onlFriday mornings. The express should stoponly to take in water. That is a fair re-quest to make, The express should not stopat so many country stations for refresh-ments. At present the Albany express stopsat Katanuing, Wagin, Narrogin, York, Bay-erley, Spencer's B~rook and Chidlow. Thepassengers do not want to obtain refresh-Meats at all those places. If people join-ing the train at any of those stations desireto obtain refreshments,, then the refreshmentroom could he opened a quarter of an houror 20 minutes before the arrival of thetrain. Passengers do not want to get outof a train at 1, 2 or 3 o'clock in the morn-ing to have a cup of tea; they would preferthe train to proceed to its destination. I hopethe Minister will be able to do somethingto avoid the unnecessary stoppags. TheCommissioner, in his report, refers to thefact that much traffic is lost to the railwaysthrough competition by motor buses. I maybe permitted to quote a case to show thatit is not altogether the motor buses that takethe business from the railways; it is oftenthe fact that the railways do not botherabout getting the. business. I wish to mien-tion the case because it is authentic and itcame under my notice last year. A businessman conducting an electric lighting stationheard of a boiler that was for sale in thecountry, probably 200 or 300 miles away.

[17 NOVE-MBER, 193S.] 22

He went there to inspect it and saw that itsatisfied his requirements. On his return heiiitervicwved the railway authorities and ask-ed(or a quo1te for. the eonve-vance of the( boilerto the destination where hedesired to haveit. In due course the quote camne tioat theRailwa ' Department and it was about £100.The mian said that he could not pay thatsum11 .and he would have to leave thle boilerlwhe~re it was. Thelw ailwa 'y Departmentadopted the attitude "That will be thefreight; take it or leave it." As thle boilerwas nteeded, the purchiaser thought the mtat-ter over and discovered that it would hatveto travel for a certain distance over theMidland linie. Applroachbing, the MKidlandRailway Company lie asked for a quote forthe removal of* the boiler. The reply hie -otfromn thle Midland Compan 'N was that themnanag-er would lie only too pleased to dis-eusA the matter with him amud,' onl callingl atthe Mlidland Company's office, thle snbjectwas investigated and the quote given himwa s between £C50 and £60. Thle result wasthat the M1idland Company got the job andbrought thle boiler down. There we have aninstance where the Government railways4, lixadopting- the attitude of "take it or Ie'uevit" lost revenue which was secured by thleMidland Railway Comniliy.

H-on. P. 1). Ferguson: Yet the AMidlandComtpany for a truck of bulk wheat willrhaire you a jolly sighit more.

Mr. SEWARD1: I am riot dealing wvithiwheat. If the Minister desires to have it,I. van give himi the namet of the person xvhoenitered into the contract with the MidlandCompany for thle removal of the boiler. Thati., Jilt iitstante that bears out, that the R1u-way Department does not sent to crewhiether it grets business or not. 'rThe ati i-tilde of the department is suchi that theIeoleC in the eouiitrv' districts fail to under-sand it. The matters to which T have re-

ferred are all that I desire to mention onlrtme Estimates. I trust the Minister will takesonlic notice of themn, and even thmought therailways may sa Iy that I am against them,I assure the Minister that that is not so. Ifthte department would only consult the peoplewho uise the railways, the officials wouldprobably get a considerable amtount of helpbecause the customners of the department ranlsee a great dleal ntore than the person whosits inl the office, or whvo goes out probablyin the Commissioner's car. If thle depart-mnent invited the co-operation of the publiv.

the railways would in the end receive verymuch better patronage than they have hadduring the last few years.

MR. SAMPSON (Swan) [8.4]: am)glad to have the opportunity to record myaplpreciation at the remiarks; of the Ministerin respect of the extension of electric. cur-rent to the outer districts that are so greatlyin acved of it. I ant gratified that the Minis-ter was sutficiently interested to make a per-sonal inspection at the districts I represent,amnd that lie appreciated the opportunity that

e~ssin the outer suburban districts f or theextension of current. When the extensionsare mtade, there will be established such anera of prosperity that will mark an epoch inthe prog-ress of those outer districts. Theextenisionts will mteant an increase of popula-tion and a decrease in the number of thosewvho, by force of circnistances, are coat-peOlled to accept sustenance. Though oneomigltt well be pardoned for feeling some ire-.gret, tltat so nny years have passed sinceextensions were first sought, nevertheless,htope sprintgs eternal and it appears that weare onl the threshold of a definite advance.I hope the remuarlis of the -Minister will berefected by' a ready acquiescence oin tile partof the Treasurer to find the necessary funds,and I know that when] the extensions.are made there will lie full? justifica-tioma for time mtoney thtat Fins beenexpentded. I have always been amazedthat the Govern mentt has not heentprepared to find the small amount necessaryto cartry out this work because, as I havesaidl on other occzasions, the extensions ofcurrent to the outer suburban districts would,make a great difference in the rervenue re-ceived fromn other sources. If there is anysinceritr in the general viewpoint that hasbeen e'xpressed. definite encouragementshould he given to people to move out fromthe city itttd to live better, More useful amtdlonger lives in the outer suburban areas. Tlteposition regarding the Electricity7 SupplyDepartment: as disclosed by the reportsplaced before us is ratifying. The profitsfor the year amounted to £C31,810, as com-pared with £24,901 for the previous 12-months. That is proof that of all theGovernment utilities none produces areturn equal to that. of the P ekee-tricit '- supply. We must realisce, too.that thle exellent profit of £31,.810 rpecualted after provision -was made for the pay-

22 2 1

(ASSEMBLY.]

inent of the increased basic wage. That isall the more satistactory. I notice also thatthe powver station is generating more cur-rent. In 1934 the figures were 91,000,000kilo-watts, and in 19038 122,000,000 kilowatts.I trust that current wvill he made available,as I have already said, to the outer subur-ban areas. to enale those areas to advance.They cannot iexpect to do so unless theyget 'this facility. A living cannot be oh-tamned from fruit growing or vegetable pro-dluction unless (-heap) pow er is provided. Irepeat that I1 appreciate the practical in-terest displayed by the Minister in visitingthe districts that will be affected, and I amhopeful that as a result of that visit therewill be an early consultation with the Trea-surer and a decision arrived at to make theextensions.

MR. HILL (Albany, ) [8.12] : Our rail-ways receive quite a lot of adverse 'criticism,and I an' afraid that a big proportion ofthat criticism is justified. Comparisons withour railways and those of South Africashow us up in a very bad light. I do notagree with those who contend that the twoCountries are not comparable. We have moreto learn from South Africa than has anyother country, but our trouble is that theGovernment of this State is not out to learn,.as it should -be. It is in a groove, and willnot shift. I realise that South Africa hascheap labour, cheap coal, a population of2,000,000 Europeans and 6,000,000 non-Europeans, but our transport problem isvery similar to theirs- They have a big areato serve, as we have. The revival in gold-mining is laorgely responsible for theirprosperity. It has also saved this Statefrom bankruptcy. Nature has been farkinder to us than it has been to them.Although their railways have been eon-structed with cheap labour the average costper wile is over £9,000, compared with£6,000 in Western Australia. Admitted thattheir railways have heavier rails, engines,etc., than have ours; they need theheavier rails and engines because ofthe nature of the country. We haveone tunnel in this State, while on oneline in South Africa, 300 miles in length,there arc about 16. Further, we have hadto spend very little on bridges, whereasSouth Africa has had to spend millions.Our troubles in this State are largely dueto the obsession that a reduction of railway

mileage means reduced cost. The policy ofcharging railage on a mileage basis isresponsible for this state of affairs, and theresult is that we have railways and portsall over the place.

There is hardly a part of the State which,ait sonic time or other, has not had its petrailway or port scheme, and because of thisour administration, as comp~ared with SouthAfrica's, is severely handicapped. There theaverage charge is 1d. per ton. per mile;, inthis State it is 1.76d. Their railways madea profit of £6,400,000 last year, ours withsinking fund and exchange a loss of£250,000. South African ports made aprofit of £077,000; ours made a loss of£34,000. 1 will briefly endeavour to showwhere we can learn from that Dominion.First, let us compare the administrations.All their railways, ports, bulk handling, tour-ist activities, airways, steamships and motorservices are undei' the general manager ofRailways and Harbours, who is responsibleto the Minister for Railways and Harbours.We have our railways, which represent 30per cent. of our total State debt, adminis-tered by the Minister for Railways. Ourpodts are controlled in two eases by localharbour authorities, in some cases by theRail*ay Department, and in- others by theHarbours and Lights Department.

Mr. Wilson: And South Africa employsblack labour.

Mr. HILL: We want to learn what wecan from them and not worry about otherthings. The Minister for our ports is theChief Secretary, who is also Minister forState Shipping. Our Tourist Bureau isunder the Premier's Department. OurTransport Board is nder the Minister forWorks, and we have the Minister for Landsmessing around with bulk handling.

The Minister for Mines: Why messingaround?

Mr. HILL: I will explain it some othertime.

The Minister for Mines: You're out oforder in I'me'ssing around."

Mr. HILL: In 1929 a committee wasappointed by the Commonwealth Govern-ment to report upon transport in Australia.Part 6 of that committee's report reads-

Co-ordlination cannot be effected solely by thepassing of Acts and regulations containingvarious restrictions.

A s~lirable organisation to mneet the require-ments of the different States is necessary, to-

[17 Novnrnan, 19:38.] 222:;

Settler with adequate executive authority tocarry out its duties effectively.

TIhe organisation wvill 'ary with the condi-tions in eachi State, but action along the fol-lowing lines is suggested:-

(a) All transport activities to be groupedunder the one Ministerial hlead, who will be re-sponsible for thc whole transportation policy.

(b) The establishment of a co-ordatingauthority' which would be responsible for carry-ing out the transport policy approved by thecovermnteat.

(c) The co-ordinating authority may takethe form of one of the followig:-(1) Cow-missioner of Transport with advisory commit-tee; (2) Transport Board; (3) Advisory coun-.cii relpresentative of interests concerned.

I am convinced that had our Governmentear-ied out this and other recommendationsof the Commonwealth committee, our rail-waY- s would have been in a much betterposition to-day. Some people consider thatwith the development of motors, railwaysare obsolete. In South Africa, the authori-ties al-c continually atiming at improvementsin their transport. In September, 1936, aconference of the leading administrators ofall British territories in or adjacent toAfrica was held to discuss transport prob-lems. This conference appointed a com-mittee, and on page 34 of the report of theSouth African Railways., and Harboursappear-s the following:-

This committee, being impressed by the ur-goat need that all forms of transport should bedeveloped along sound and economic lines, re-solves-

(a) That the railways are a vital factorin agricultural development and in pre-serving the primary industries 'of anycountry;

(b) That the existing long-establishedworld-wide railway policy of charging highrates for valuable traffic and low rates forprimary products is essential to stimulateand maintain primary production;

(c) That the policy mentioned in thepreceding paragraph is seriously imperilledwhere uncontrolled competition with therailways by other forms of transport isallowed;

(d) That having regard to what is statedin paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), a schemeof control of transport is necessary in thebest interests of any country;

and recommends tha~t suitable legislation beintroduced in all territories to bring this about.It believes that such legislation is not onlynecessary in the interests of the public as awhole but also in the best interests of eachform of transport, inasmuch as the security andstability thereby attained would encourage theinvestment of capital in establishing or im-proving transport undertakings.

It has been found necessary in most coun-tries during recent years to adopt legislativemeasures for the control of public tr-ansport,and the following brief summary of the out-standing features of the most recent legisla-tion in other countries, as set out in the UnitedStates Departnment of Commerce Publication,''Railwvays and H-ighways TransportationAboa, and in the ''International RailwayCongress Bulletin,'' is of interest:-

Australia (Queensland) .- Road vehiclescompeting with thle railways are taxed atthme rate of 1% d. per tonl per mile, and1%d. per passenger Per mile, on all goodsand passenger traffic conveyed. These taxesare in addition to the ordina-y motor tax.

Austrnlia-oad transport parallel torailways for distauces exceediug 62 milesis prohibited.

Belgimu-T-ansport services competingwith, railways must pay an indemnity tothe railways.

Czeehoslovakia.-Heavy restrictions arcPlaced on motor vehicles operating for agreater distance titan 1M milesecp

wesuhservices are acting as feeder ser-vices to the railways. Onl heavy lorries, asuper tax, approximately three timie, asgreat as the ordinary, tax, must be paidby all operators who do not enter into -aworking agreement withL the railways.

Hungary and Rumani.-Road transporthas been declared a State monopoly. TheState, however, canl lot out to private eon-tractors the right to operate services undercertain conditions.

Italy.-Road transport Vehicles are taxedon a ton-mileage basis, which has theeffect of discouraging long-distance traffic.Taxes on road goods transport are utilised

to Subsidise inland water services and motorlorry services which act as feeders to therailways.

Switzerlsnd.-Operators of road passen-ger services which compete with railwaysare required to pay to the railways a spe-cial tax of two centimes per Passenger permile to compensate the railways for loss ofrevenue.

Tasmania-Vehieles competing "ith therailways are taxed from 2% per cent, to81/ per cent. on the revenue earned, ac-cording to distances over which they comn-Pete.

Overseas visits.The Granet Commission in its report pulb-

lished in 1934, stressed the value of contactwith railways overseas, as follows,:-

WSe desire to call special attention to thegreat benefit to be derived from sendingmembers of the railway staff to studyrailway methods in other countries.

NMr. Needham : Wha~t are you quotingfrom?

M.HILL: From the lust report of theSouth African Railway Department. TheGi-anet Commission's report continues:-

While it is not contended that every-thing done elsewhere is either right or

2224 [ASSEMBLY.]

applicable to conditions at home, we havetounci from actual experience on our re-slective railways that apart from the edti-ceitionail value of such visits to the officersconeerned, the financial benefits arisingtlherefroms far outweigh their cost. Inorder to obtain the best results, such visitsshould lie systenmatic and frequent, and ofsuiieent duiration to enable the officerseoncerned to make a thorough inivestiga-tion of the subjects entrusted to themaccording to a defined programmec. Ontheir return, thle results of their investiga-tions should be carefully considered with aview to deciding to what extent thle infor-moation olbtained could be msade use of athome. In many cases it may be foundniecessary to repeat the visit, not nmeessar-ily by the state officer. In this connection,out- experence has convinced us tbat itpiays to havye almost continuous series ofthese investigations. In certain eases itnsay be found beineficial to arrange for :inexchange of officers for a comparativelyextended period, so that a particular prob-lem may be investigated in all its aspects.

The general inua ager of thle South Atticanarailwvays, commnentinug onl the report, said-

I an, ii full accord witl, tile views expressedby the Connmission, anid inl recent years mla fyinvestigations have been carried ouit overseasinto railway problems covering a wide field,but more pa rtienllarl v into teechnical matters.In addition to sending olliceis to other coun-tries to inquire into problems, advantage isfrequently taken of the presence over-seas ofan officer w-Io is onl extenided leav'e of absencefor tire purpose of inqui ring into questionsaffecting Iis particular sphere of work.

Subjects whtirih have beens investigated inother- counties in recent Year-s include rail cardievelopment; catering arrangements on trains,and in irailway resta urants, and catering prac-tices generally; stoves methods; air-craft de.velopuient and probleins i-elating to thme opera-lions of -ivil :irwa ' s generally'; recent develop-mnts inl signallinig mnethods : developments ininteia r oma bst ion ong il s- antd operations of'road Cl '(to r scr vi-es geni ea liv ; electr i flcationa ir-coniiobninmg of pamssebnger rolling stock.-A part from these investigations, officers arcalso sent oveb-scas to i-epresent the adinissistr:,-tion at congresses, and other meetings, at whichmatters of anl important character relating torailways are discussed, anid in this wvay, valuablecointact is Ibba intt lii CIwi th o tiber railways, andviews are exeliamiged with regard to problemscoaitinon to i-ailwa vs the world over.

A rising out of certain reco~niidabtiomis madecby tile Gi-; tet CoibliIssioI ai-rangonscents weremade for a delegation of seibior officers, cons-prising tlme Chief -Mechanical Engineer, theAssistant Chief Civil Engineer, the Chbief Super-intendabt (staff), tile Research Engimieer, andtile Production -Engineer to visit Europe andAmerica durngbg the Ioresemit 'year foi thle pur-pose of making investigations into aspects ofrailwa'Y working fall ing wvitiln their respectiyr

spheres of work. These officers visited thelarger railway centres in Ureat Britain, theContinent of Europe, the United States ofAmerica, aiid Canada. They have niade col-pi-ehsensive investigationss into subjects such aswvorksmop Organisation and equipment, civil en-gieeriuig problems, oper-ating and commercialpractices, etc., and tile mass of informationthey hbave obtained onl these matters should beof considerable value to the administration.

These extracts al-C very interesting to s,and we might well follow the lead of SouthAfrica arid send our senior officers and mostpromising Youing officers lo other States andOv erseas. The problem of our r-ailways isa big- and chaniging- one, and I ail consfidentthat a visit to South Africa and othercountries by our- Commissioner would liewvorth while.

The Minister for Mines: Do you thinkhie onilt to brinig back a bonstload of Iblacksuto wyork our railways?

M)i-. HILL: Let lie finish what I have tosay.

Mr. Needhams: Is there a sytising left?-Mrt. BILL: A visit to South Africa by

our commissioner would be well worth whileparticullalrly if, while over-seas, lie carefullyinvestigated port aild shipping problems aswell. I mlenltions this becasuse, to quote SirGleorge Buchanan-

Ports are the medium between sea and landtransport. Onl the pafrts, tlmeir efficiency andproper location, the whole system of transportlargely depends.Oil Isis returns I wcould suggtest that he beappmoiinted Comsmissioner of Transport aildthsat anl advisory trsanlsport council or coml-inittee lie fo-med consisting of the Colmis-siomier of Tr'iansport as chairmna, [ilt Coin-imssromier of, Railways, tile General Manageror Chairmaln of the State Harbours Board,tile Chair-man of the Transport Hoard andtile MNanager of the State Steaships. Isuggaest the scra-ngl of tile Fremnantle IHar-hour Trust and( [lie Bumibusiy Harbour Board,thle repeal of the Albany Harbour BloardAct and that all State harbours be tinder theone authority as in South Australia or NewSoutm Wales- in thlis connection I wouldpoimit o1st that in the "West Australian"lteeilY appear-ed tile following:-

Tasmannian Tranlsport.W"ifle Powers forn Commnissioner.

Hlobart. Nov. il.-Under thle provisions ofthe Transport Bill which the Premier (M.%r.Ogilvie) w-ill submit to Parliament next weekit is proposed to ereate a new office of Canamis-

[17 NOVEMBlER, 1938.] 2225

asioner for Transport. Tite commissioner'spowers wvill be far reaching. fie will be givenfull control over ail forms of transport, in-cluding railway, road, river and air servicesand conduct then, under State control.

The Bill follows an investigation extendingover several Months and is aimed at decreasingthe losses onl railways, which amount to £500,000.a year. It is probable that in thle event of theBill being passed the Governmfent will takeover road services inl competition with rail-ways and considerably curtail railway passen-ger services.

A caref ul comparison of the report of ourCommissioner with that of South Africashows that one factor contributing in nosmnall way to the better financial results inSouth Africa is the fact that theft averagetrain load is double that in our State. Theijeiniber for Kalgoorlie, when referring tothis last Year, suggested relaying our tineswith S011). rails, and using heavier locomon-tives. This would cost millions, and conse-kluezitly is out of the question at present.There is no need for this in the southernportion of the State. Our p~resent port zonesystemn is based on only one factor-railwaymileage. The high costs and losses on bothour railways and p~orts provide proof thatthe sy' stemn is not working satisfactorily. Tosair a fewv miles in railage, wheat from thecountry east of the Great Southern is hauledover the Darling Ranges, instead of downthe Great Southern. For example, to saveonly 21 miles of railage and 8d. per ton infreight 60,000 tons of wheat was last yearrailed through Wagin westward instead ofdown the Great Southern railway.

Mr. Withers: That is a saving to thefarmers.

Mr. HILL: Let me finish, please! Anamount of £73,000 has been spent on re-grading the railway between Collie andBrusnswick, and now an engine will haul 426tons from Wagin to Collie, 500 tons Collieto Brunswick, and 850 tons Brunswick toButnbury, a distance for the 850 tons of only16 miles. Up to date, nothing has been spentonl regrading the Great Southern railwaysouth of Narrogin, and the engine load tablesshow the load as follows: -

Waigin-Lime Lake..Litte Lake-Moojebing316oojebing-KatanningKatanu n g*MnrdongIlMurdong-BroomehillBrooinehill-PeringellupPerigellunp-TambellupTaiubellup-Wansbrougli

Miles.8

177687

Tons.500850426850426

587465

AVh us brough-Poo tentup1'ootenuip-TenlterdenTen ten-den-Ca rhairupCarbarup-Mt. BarkerMt. Barker-NarrikupNarrikup-RadneondRedniond-Albanly

Brunswick is 16 milesthat is the only sectiolfull load is possibleBunbury, whereas the

Miles. Tons.7 850

20 497-. 15 673i-. 7 481* 11 673-. 8 800

20 850from Bunbury, and1where the 850 tonsbetween Wagin andfigures quoted showv

that 850 tons may be hauled for a total of50 miles between Wagin and Albany, and afurther 8 miles for a load of 800tonis, and for 34 miles the load is6173 tons. One Of MY railway friendshas Supplied 'Ilc with a drawing showingthle grades along the Great Southern.A glance at the drawing reveals that allthat is needed to increase considerably thecarrying capacity of the Great Southernline is to cut dow-n thle grades, aggregatingall told only 11 miles. This would be agood work for unemployed men, as it con-sists of about 100 per cent. labour. Bythis means a grade of one in eighty couldbe secured all thle way to Albany. Itwould mean that anl FS. engine could haula load Of 850 tot's for nio less than 77 milesonl the Great Southern railway, and that byusing !beainking engines on the Other 70miles trains of 850 tons could be hauled allthe way front Wagin to Albany. Thenthere is the question of speed. In the caseof a goods train from Wagi to Albany,straight and easy curves permit a maxi-mumt speed of 30 miles; nine curves permita maximum speed of 27 miles; and fivecurves permit a maximum speed of 20 miles.Between Wagin and Bowelling, straightand easy curves permit a maximum speedof 25 miles, and nine curves a maximumspeed of 19 miles. I have shown one wayin which more economical working of ourrailways may be achieved. Some altera-tions would have to be made, but they arepecessary for the purpose of decreasingcosts and cutting down the railway deficit.Further economies might be effected by theadjustment of the zones on anl economicalbasis. Other countries have railway chargeson a zone basis instead of upon a mileagebasis, and we can follow their example.

Now I would like to say a little aboutthe train service on the Great Southernline. I suggest sending wheat for ship-ment the shortest way, and not the longest.

222U; [ASSEMBLY.]

The shortest route in the case of the Al-bany zone is via the IDonnybrook-Katan-11mg line; hult owing to the low carryingcapacity of that line, super is hauled overthe FBrunsiek-Collie-Waginl line. Theieuiber for Pingelly (Mir. Seward) refer-

red to thle rather poor service onl the GreatSouthern line. That service has to a cer-tain extent deteriorated. A.Z. coaches havebeen replaced by A.Q. When that changewas made, thle members for Williams-Nar-rogin (11r. Doney) and Pingclv (Mr.Seward) and I waited oin the Minister foritailwvaYs and asked that the A.Z. coachesbe restored. That night the Chief TrafficMfanager went to see who patronised theA.Q. coaches, Hie found that the passen-gers consisted of the member for Pingelly,the member for Willianis-Narrogin, andmyself. I,, it not deplorable that our rail-wvays are so little used? Instead of cut-ting down the service because of thle poorpa tronla.u-c tile I-i iwars receive, the die-partinent should provi de a service wvhichwvould1 encourage larger patronage. At thepresent time the fast train takes 16 lioursto go from Albany to Perth. The oidinarytrain fakes about 18 hours. Motor earshave (lone the dIistanace in from four' hoursto seven hours. They tan do it comfort-ably in 5% hours. The journey has been(lone by- push bike in 12 hours 28 minutes.The trouble is that the distance by roadfrom Albany' to Perth is 254 miles, whlile thledistance 1)y rail is 341. The railway chargeis onl the mileage basis. While paissengersare conveyed a radial distance of only252 miles, they have to pay for 341 miles.The member for Pingellr has already re-ferred to the need for improved passengerservice. If the Great Southern servicecould be speeded tip and provided atcheaper fares, it would he more used. Assoon as cheap excursion fares arc cut out,the passenger lpatVofazi, on the GreatSoutherni line lbecomues less. Tt wvill be aprofitable proposition for the Commissionerof IhiiwaYs to speed up the trains and re-duce the fares.

MR. MARSHALL (Tv1urchison) [8.35];It seems that we have the wrong, man forCommnissioner of Railway' s. absolutely!I Thisis the mian the Miehison is looking for! Ifthere is anything the Mfurchison people die-sire most of all, it is the speeding up of therailway trains. Had the previous speaker

gi veil maturer consideration to the hg-tireslie used, he would have realised that thebasic fact which permits South Africa-acountry I know, having lived there for sometime-to make such a huge success of itsrail way system as compared with WesternAustralia, is not that it has a population of2,000,000 whites and 6,000,000 colouredp~eople, but that its railway system operatesover only a fraction of the area and mileagethat obtain in Western Australia, which hasa population of only 451,000. The lion.member desires anl infant to run before ithas begun to crawl. How could we carrythe same costs as a population so wealthyand so numerous as that of South Africa?

Mir. Hill; Who suggested it?

Mr. MARSHALL: The whole position isobvious. I would not be so audacious as toaccuse our Commissioner of Railwvays of notbeing conversant with conditions iii othercountries where similar railway systems,having regard to the gnges. are in existence.I respectfully suggest that thne departmentalofficers of the Western Australian railways ,ystemn ale fully aware of what is takingplace in other countries. Our departmentalstaff, however, is handicapped by the factthat when it. reachles out to give effect to thereforms wre all desist, the cry is. "There isno money."' I have not the slightest doubtthat our engineers are qunite callale ofgiving us air-conditioned rolling stock. Wewant it. NYo one wants it more tharn thosewho travel 715 miles on one of the hottestlines in Australia, that to the Murchisongoldfields. Those arme tlie people who nevedconsideration in the form of air-conditionedrailway carriages. They\ are the people, too,who pay the highest railway freights andfares, and are responsible fo'r the small de-ficit our system shows. They pay themaxima for all services rendered. They live,and labour under thle most oppressive clima-tic conditions in Western Australia. I saythese things irith all due respect to peoplew~ho live in other parts of this State. WhenWestern Australia has a population of2.000.000 whites, and in addition numbersof coloured people as intelligent and ainhi-tious and efficient, and with the same stanid-ard of living, as the coloured people ofSouth Africa. our Railways Commissionerwvill find it much easier to give effect to thewvislbes of tlie member for Albanyv thanmmd'q present conditiong and circumnstances.AVP nimst hear in mind the fact that Western

22'2?

Australia has more miles of railway perblead of population than has any othercountry in the world. OUr population totals451,000. In thle circumstances, and having.regard to the monetary system under whichwe live, our people have done a pretty goodJob. 'Nevertheless I must endorse thle re-marks of the member for Kalgoorlie (MrY.Styants). The condition of the tractor sec-tion of onr railway syst-em is deplorable. Imuake mention of this because of what oneexperiences when one takes the train run-ning into the Mfurehison district. That dis-trict has eight mionths of hot weather, andfour mionths of particularly wvarm weather,'Men are working inl the cabins of locomto-tives under such conditions. The enginesaire in a bad state of repair, and so the menare not much encouraged to give efficiency.Indeed, [ miarvel that the men stick to theirjobs as well as theyI do, in such circum-stances. Anyone with mechanical know-ledge of engines knows there is a loss ofefficiency when thle big ends of brass hear-ings and so forth commence to knock, de-s-eloping a little more friction than is essen-tial to the work for which the engine is de-signed. It is heart-breaking, to try to ob-tain efficiency from an engine in such astate. In that regard the Commissioner isnot considerate to his men, for the train isusually loaded uip. I compliment the staffonl their efforts to give service to the peopleof the State in such conditions. I caninotblame the Commissioner, because I feel eon-Hieint that if money was provided he wvouldeffect the necessary' improvements. How-ever. T cannot let the op~portunity pass with-ont making these remarks.

I ask the member for Pinlgelly (M.r.Sewardl), if he thinks, the Albany-Perthtrain requires speeding tip, what would behis remarks if he had to travel betweenWiluna and Perth?

Mr. Watts: The hon. mnember's remiarksw-ould be exactly the same,. only louder.

Mr. MIARSHIALL: I arewith the mnem-her for Katanning. I do not speak, disparar-mngly' of thle mnemlber for Fingcllv, whose jobis to repres ent his constituents here:. hutmany people live under far more adverseconditions in repIet of transport thanl dothe people between Alhany and Perth.

Mr. Sewardl: T referred to the trans. linealso, and I particularly asked for the speed-ilig-up of the Diesel eason branch lines.

Mlr. IARiS-HALL: I1 thoughit the bon.ineniber spoke onlyv of steam-driven locomo-tives, lie mnentioned that passenger trainshad to stop at every little siding. That is alsothle cas-e between Wiluina and Perth. I wventto the tronlel once of ascertaining the nunm-her of stops betwveca Perth and Wiluna, andI mnade thle total Si.

Mr. Seward: If I had referred to thatmatter, I might have been told to mnind myown business,

Mr. MXARSHALL: The technical inechian-ism essential to the safety of the train hasto be considered. Frequently passengerscomplain of a stop at anl unattended sidingfor a period too long to he ag-reeable tothem: but there is the safe-working mechan-ismn, which must receive close attention be-cause the train cannot start until there isassurance of its travelling over the next see-tion with safety. People without the neces-sarv mechanical knowliedge arc apt to com-plain bitterly of stops. There would hie agreat deal more to complain ahout if a col-lision resulted onl the next section throughlack of attention to safe-working mechanism.The ordinary person knows nothing of themany technicalities associated with the run11-ning of trains,, but is too ready to criticise,without appreciating the cause of stops.There is nothing in that.

I tell the member for Canning he is outof step on the subject of transport. Canlhie name one big city in the world that hasentirely discarded tranis and trains as aineans of transport and installed buses?

Mr. Cross: I never said there was.31r. MNARSHALL: The hon. member's

inference was along that line, and frequentlyhe has told us that our trains and trains areobsolete.

Mr. Cross: They have been sc-rapped inLondon and Manchester.

M1-r 'MARSHALL1: Nothingr nf thle kind.The member for Albany (Mr7 Hill) quotedextensively from all countries, and he showedthat in most instances they are prohihited.while in others they arc Under control.

Mr'. Gross: The report he quoted was twoYears old.

Mr. "MARSHALL: We need oly go toSouth Australia to find that buses are pro-hibited from plying, though T admit thereare a few that run to Semaphore and back.What is really* wrong with our (lovermuentmnethod of transport is that the s :ystem isobsolete. It' ouir trnnis and trains Were

[17 1938,]

[ASSEMBLY.]

modern they would move passenger traf[ficmuch mnore rapidly than any other methodever thought of by the member for Canning.That our trains are far from losing passen-ger traf[ie is shown by the number of peoplewho continue to patronise them, and one hasonly to watch the exodus fromt the PerthRailway Station in the early hours of themorning to prove that what I am saying- iscorrect, imagine that number of peolebeing transported by buses. Buses have beengliven too) many concessioiis in the mietro-politaln area, viud at thle expense of thel lax-pa~yers also.

Mr. Cross: Y-ou hare never heard me ad-vocate buses.

MrIt. MARSHALL: The lion. ieasbei'should go somewhere else where buses arein eoll)peti ti on with trains and trains, andnote the couditions; under which the peoplethere have to travel.

Mr. Cross: I know all about it.Mr. -MAR SHALL: If the hon. member

knows, he should tell the H-ouse.Mr. Cross: I am entitled to tell you what

ks wanted at South Perth.Mr. MTARSHALL: South Perth wanted a

new ferr iy and got it; it wanted a tram andgot it; it wanted buses. and got them; nowthat suburb wants trolley buses.

Mr. Cross: We will get them, too.Mr. MARSHALL: I know something

about buses, because it is my misfortune tohave to travel in one. It takes 4.5 minutesoccasionally to do six iiiles, and I amchlarg-ed 8d. for the trip. I can get on atrain, slow and] all as it is, at the TownHall, and travel seven miles in a shorterspace of limo and pay 5ld. The lion. niu-her imlag-ines that buses travel. at a greaterspeed because they do niot stop so frequentlyas thme tramns. But let him look at the busesthat travel onl the south side of the river,buse-s that are without conductresses. Therethe driver has to collect the fares himself,and that sometimes takes five minutes whilean old lady will dip into her purse and searchfor her fare,.

Mrs. Cardell-Oliver: What about the oldMen?

Mr. 'MARSHALL: I suppose they wouldwaste sonic timec, hut the women are thereatest offeniders in this respect. If one

goes to onthack places where motors are incompetition with the railways be will findthat at one time it cost £7 10s. to carry goodsover- a distance of 142 milest. People niever

complained, but let the Corniis.5iuner ForRailwvays charge a similar rate for 142 milesand then listen to the howl, But revertingto mlotor buses. Have we not all exl)Cflenveitheir evil sniells from the exhaust and theinterior filled with cigarette smoke?

Mr. Cross: There is nothing like that inlthe trolley buses.

Mr. M1ARSHALL: fIn the buses we findpeople Ilignvoleverywhere, and yet noone complains. Let the trains be over-Crowded, and then note what happens.Reall'y the nienibers of the public are notfair. We( find people steppin g out of a businto thle rain to mIae way for somleonleabout to alight, then returning to it withotuttering a coniplaint ; but when it comes tothle overcrowding of trains the newspaper.%are fllerd with hostile criticism of the Gov-ernmicnt methods of transport. Yet thirtrnims aind trais belong, to the people them-selves.

Mr. Cross.' They should be improved.MrIt. 'MARSHALL: I agree, but where is

the mnoney to come froni? It is all a ques-tion of funds, and that is never discussed inthis Chaniber. I should like to ventilate asmall grievance regarding the excursion trainwhich was sent from W\ilulna to Perth inDecember last. That train was allowed toleave Wiluna seven or eight days before theschools broke up for the Christmas holidays.That caused great inconvenience to manypeople. it was too late to rectify the trouble,and so the train had to leave earlier than itshould have done. This rear, I hi. thwCommissioner will ascertain the date onwhich the schools will close for the holidays,so thant the parents who desire to accompanythe children to the coast may be able to d oso, after the break-up. I ni-ge the depart-nient also to keep the trains supplied withclean water for the trip, because it is a1 longand tedious journey. One can imagine whatthe trip is like when I say that two trainsmar be leaving the Perth station at the same

timne, one for Adelaide and the other forWiluna. and the train bound for Adelaidewill reach its destination before the otherar-rives at Wiluna. That will give :in idea ofPthe eonditions tinder whieh people have totravel in parts, of this State.

Mr. Sewrard: There is no reason why thatshould be so.

Mfr. MARSHALL: It is due to the factthat the department cannot afford to improvea. systemi which is already showing a loss.

[17 NovE]Ur~ll, 1938.] 2205

ot that expenditure call be devoted to thedevelopmnent of the States, while at thesamte time serving the needs of defence, somuch the better. There cain be more co-operation in this respeet between the Corn-mionwenith and thle States of New SouthW~ales and Victorja than between thle Com-monwealth and Western Australia. In NewSouth Wales and Victoria railways will beduplicated and put in a safe position, andthis wvork will be very valuable from thestandpoint of defence. This year, however,the States must undertake the %-ery difficulttask of endeavouring to carry out essentialloan works with less funds. As most of theStates try to provide for the relief of un-employment byr carrying out public worksfinanced from loan moneys, and as the num-bers of unemployed have not continued tofall at the same rate as the decrease in loanfunds, the problems confronting StateTreasurers are acute. I am aware that thepolicy of public works for the relief ofunemployment is criticised by some people;but in my' opinion there should be no hesita-tion on the part of any community to bor-row for the purpose of providing work forthose who cannot obtain employment inprivate enterprise. Members will agree withmue that nothing can be more demoralisingthan continuous unemployment, and that tokeep men in idleness for a day longer thanis avoidable is a social crime that no com-munity should tolerate.

A public works policy of unemploymentrelief must, of course, be applied intelli-gently and should contract when employ-ment iii private enterprise is brisk, expand-ing when private investment is weak.

Hon. C. G. Lathanm: If money is notavailable for private investment, is it avail-able for the Government?

The PREMIER: M1oney is always avail-able for private investment. Because oflack of confidence in the future, however,'investors prefer to place their money in abank on fixed deposit or to subscribe toGovernment loans.

Hon. C. G. Latham: So they get someoneelse to invest it for them.

The PREMIER: Yes. They are not pre-pared to take the risk of investing theirmoney in private enterprise. At the start

ou nr depression years, millions of poundswere available in Australia for investment,but no one then wanted to borrow money.

Sonie of the banks even refused to acceptmoney on fixed deposit, as they had ampleflunds. Investors wvere therefore forced tosubscribe to Government loans. I think thatsome £4,000,000 or £65,000,000 was raised inAustralia at a little over 3 per centt.

Hon. C. G. Latham: Is not that a badsign?

The PREMIER: Yes. Consequently, theGovernment found it necessary to expandits borrowing programme in order to keeppeop~le employed. In 1932-33 the borrow-ings by the Commonwealth and Statesamounted to £16,500,000. This increased to£27,000,000 in 1934-35. Following upon anincrease in private employment, borrowingshave dropped since that year until they fellto £14,500,000 during the last financial year.With the drop i the national income dueto the decline in the prices of some of ourexports, it may be necessary to extend Stateloan expenditure. Less money will beavailable and consequently, if we wish tokeep our people in employment, the Comn-monwvealth and the States will have to em-bark onl extended loan expeinditure.

Hon. C. G. Latham: Do you think youwill get the money?9

The PREMIER: Yes, I am positive.Hon. C. . Latham: Are you positive

you can get more money?The PREMIER: I am. Credit facilities

will be available.Hon. C. G. Latham: I am not talking

about credit facilities. I doubt whether youcan get the money. I think the banks arelending all they can.

The PREMIER : The CommnonwealthBank and the Associated Banks advised tileLoan Council that am pie funds were avail-alble for investmntei . Neither the Common-wealth Government nor thle State Govern-mepts desire to compete for money that canbe employed reproductively by plriv-ateenterprise. We therefore agreed, more orless willi ng]l'v, to a reduction in loan ex-penditure and found we coal(] carry onlmuclh better. Notwvithistanding the tin-fortunate drop in prices of primary pro-ducts-and that has not yet affected us very'seriously-hie condition of the State to-dayis )letter than it was three or four years ago0,when the Commonwealth and thle Statesspent the peak amount of £U7,000,000.However, if our income is reduced, we shallag'ain Iha-c to revert to loan expenditure,bitt that is a problem rather for the future.

2206 .[ASSEMBLY.]

It is increasingly diffieult to make the twopurposes coincide with the funds available,because unfortunately some of the most de-sirable works, from a developmental view-point, are the least attractive als regards em-ploylnient. I have a table of figures whichshow the rise in cost of unemp~loymnentworks during the past six years. The tablerelates to the cost per man per week, and is-is follows:-

Year. Wages. Other. Total.9 s. d. E s. d. 2 s. d.

193233. 2 14 7 1S82 42 91933a-34 .. 2 17 9 1 18 9 4 16 61934-35 3 1 8 2 13 10 .5 15o 619351-36. 3 67 3 44 6 10111936.37 .310 4 3 14 2 74 61937-38. 3 14 8 3 1 3 6 1511

Thle i-minced cost ]last year- as compared with1936-37 was due to two factors, ]in theearlier year, the Railway Department car-ried out a fairly extensive re-laying pro-graninle, in which the cost Of materials washeavy. This work was completed in theyear, and no comparatively expensive workwas (lone in 1937-38. For instance, theRailway Department re-laid the WonganHills line with heavier rails,

Hon. C. G. Lathamn: Were the rails onthat line not always 60 lbs.7

The PREMIER: No, oiriginally' the railswere 461/ lbs. Sixty-lb. rails have beenlaid up to Mullewa, and on to Geraldton.We can now use the biggest engines inthe State in the northern areas, and, conse-quentl ', can".' bigger loads. The cost,.naturally, Was heavy, because the mnateriailwas manufactured outside the State . Ahiuh cost is not a disadvantage wvhen thework undertaken is fully rep~roductive, andthe number of men to be provided with workis within the ability of the funds to meet;hut wh enl fnunds decline Or rep~roductive work'cannoot he found, unless at inordinately highcost, the lposition becomes acute. Theremunst be a constant watch kept onl the in'-antics in, which loan expenditure is incurredin order to see that as far as possible thoseavenues lead to reproductive works. It is an-avoidable, of course, iii a young- growingState such as ours, that part of the loanmoneys must be applied to undertakingswhich in themselves are not reproductive.With local authorities, we have been con-structing roads on a proportionate basis;that is, we have been finding some of themoney and the local bodies have also foundsRome.

Hon. P. D. Ferguson: That scheme is notin existence to-day.

The PREMIER: No; fortunately we havenot had to resort to that lately. WesternAustralia has already spent well over£850,000 a year in road construction alone,and that is as much as should be necessaryiii a State like ours.

Hon. C. G. Latham: But roads are notconstructed out of loan money.

The PREMIER: No. The road require-nients are miet byv an expenditure of £800,000a year.

Hon. C. G-. Latham: You had better notsay too much about that, because the moneycomes from the lpetrol tax.

The PREMIER: And the petrol tax ispaid mostly by the people. Years ago theCommonwealth recognised the justice of ourclaim because of our- huge area, and so wewere given consideration by way of increase(]paym vients from the petrol tax. That moneyis contributed by the people, and we mustadmit that those who have paid the tax havereceived excellent value, not only fromt thestandpoint of comfort and convenience butalso because of reduced wear and tear ofvehicles. There has also been a considerablesaving- of time for those engaged in businessas a result of the road construction workthat has been carried out.

Hon. P. D. Ferguson: And the schemepr-oved helpful to the local authorities.

The PREMIER: What was helpful to thelocal authorities here in contradistinction tothe position of local bodies in the otherStates was the fact that in Western Aus-tralia they got all the mloney' . New SouthWales took about a million from the petroltax for its own rise, and South Australia, Ibelieve, took £300,000 oil £400,000.

Hon. P. D. FerguIson: We do not alwaysfollow those States in their mistakes.

The PREMIER: The whole idea rel-aid-ing municipal or local government "was thatthose bodies should car-ry out ncesary roadconstruction in their own districts, and nottouch miain roads. 'Nearly all the roads builtby the local bodies within their own borderslhave been paid for out of fees that thoselocal bodies have obtained fromt vehicularlicenses. Quite a number of country cal-sconmc into the city, and] from the registi-ationplates we can see that there is a considerableincrease in numbers. Only to-day I saw aKalgoorlie car, and( its numnber was as highas 1300.

[17 NovEMBER, 11938.]20

Hon. C. G. Latham: And you wil] prob-ably see quite a number of Perth ears onthe goldfields.

The PREM1IER: I have no doubt that isso. Not only do the local authorities havemoney from the petrol tax spent in theirdistricts, but they also have the advantage ofthe fees collected in the district being re-turned to them. That is not done anywhereelse. I remember protesting against thatprinciple when the proposal was before thisHouse in 1931. However, the money wasgiven to the loeel bodies, I favoured theprinciple that the central Government shouldge t somec proportion of those fees. For-tunately, the State is not now so bard upthat it needs to make a raid on any of themioney that goes to the local authorities.

Mr. Patrick: It is a good thing, too, thatthe Commonwealth agreement was renewedfor ten years.

The PREMIER: Yes, it was a wonderfulthing for 'Western Australia, and indeed forAustralia generally. The CommonwealthGovernment takes two-thirds of the petroltax, and we get one-third.

The Minister for Works: The Common-wealth shows a substantial profit on that.

The PREMKIER: U~nder the arrangementwe entered into with numerous local authori-ties for the improvement uf the roads intheir districts wvhich do not come underthe jurisdiction of the Commissionerof Main Roads, we provided tile lab-our, andi the local authorities sup-plied the material. This was mutuallyadvantageous in that it provided work formen dependent onl the ('overtnment, and im-proved the roads in the local authorities'areas. But it is not such as ca~n he continued.Obviously, the rcsI)onsibility for the main-tenance of roads rests on the local authori-lies, and quite a part from the fact that agenerous method for distributingif licensefees should provide those bodies with amiplerevenue, it is an undesirable practice for thecentral Government to relieve them of it.Mly desire is to show that this form of ex-vim~niture, cannot be continued. The moneyraised b-v local authorities by way of trafficfees, local registrations and rates, as well asI le money derived from the petrol. tax,shiould be sufficient for the eonstniction ofroads and the Government looks askance atexpenditure in this direction f rein LoanFunds, on which we have to provide interestand sinking fund.

Deliberately and with our eyes open wesomletimeis spend money to provide employ-inent, but we are always anxious that itshould be spent onl something that will provereproductive. Even if the work cannot hetermed reprodluctive in itself, it may even-tually lead to thie production of wealth inthe State. This can be said of the expendi-ture that was incurred at Harvey and War-nona six or seven years ago. The w~orksgthere 'vere not reproductive in the sense thatwe got interest and sinking fund fromi them,but the result waIs to inIcrease the productiverapacity of those districts. The effect hasalso been to increase considerably the capitalvalue of the land there.

Mr. Stubbss. Shall we not get interest ands-inking, fudeentually fromn that expendi-tiire?

The PREMIER: I think we shall. Lastyear the Minister Car Works, realising thehigh east of the undertakings there, con-sidered it would be injudicious to impose ahigh rate immediately, but lie did strike arate which will nearly pay interest and.sinking fund. T]his was fixed at 10 per cent.,increasing by 10 per cent. in each of 10years until the full amount of the rate isieached.

'Mr. Stubbs: And the work hus, enhanced]tile value Of the land?

The PREMIER: -No doubt about it. InWaroonia I saw land which four or five yearsago could lhcve been purchased for 6a

acrje and which now was claimed to be worthiC20 an acre. The peole of the State shouldbe lIeasedl to know that the South-West,which for manny years was under a cloud,is now producing a considerable propor-tionof the r-equirements of the State. Because Igro down to a district and observe thait goo0dwork is being, done from a productive stand-point. T ID not desire to rush back iniedi-aitely. and impose some burden on the district.

4r. Stubbs: You ean keep it in minidthough.

The PRE2MIER:. Yes, I might keep it inmind, but I do not wish to discourage any-body from doing good work such as is bein~gdlone at lpresent. People say that the expen-liture of this money w~ill not result in the

repayment of interest and sinking fund, hutsuch expenditure has tended to increase theproductive capacity of the country to a tre-inendouls extent, and in that benefit everycitize-n of the State shares. Some of the

2.207

2203 [ASSEMBLY.]

work done cannot be reproductive. Theideal ,vstemu would be that if we wanted tospend mnoney oil a work that was not likelyto return interest and sinking fund, weshould1( do it out of revenue or not at all: butwe have not vet reached that ideal stage,though considerable advance towards it hasbeen made. Public buildings such as lies-pitals and( schools are not at all reproduc-tire, but their erection is a social obligation.Whein the cost of such buildings is heavy,to attemplt to find the money out of revenuefor their erection is unwise, On the otherhand, when those buildings are likely to lastfor many 'years, it is reasonable that themoney should be borrowed and that interestand sinking fund payments should be metout of revenue so that the cost will be re-couped over a period of time instead of inone y ear. Revenue should certainly be askedto bear the maintenance costs of these pub-lic buildings and, as far as possible, thecapital cost also. When such costs cannotbe met from revenue, we are justified in pro-viding- those social requirements from loanmono, v The expenditure on such assets musthe limited of course to a reasonable propor-tion of the loan moneys available from yearto year. otherwise the burden of debt wouldbecome too heavy and we would find our-selves in serious trouble. That efforts havelbeen nmade by the Government to limit theloan expenditure on objects that are notfully reproductive, is evident from the fol-

lo1inZ table:Loan Expenditure 1929.30 to 1937.38.

Percentage Distribution According to DirectProduti iveness.

Years Fully Partially Other.Reproductive. Reproductive.

1929-30 to1933-34 181/ 45el 37%

1934-35 .. 4/% 23% 31%19:15-16- 63% 1411 23%1036-37 .. 609, 17% 93%1937-38 -- 44% 32%/ ;4%.

The reduction in the percentage of ex-penditure on fully reproductive undertak-ings last year as compared with the previ-ens year is due to additional expenditurein 1937-38 on railways, harbours and in thep)urclhase of the new State ship. In the pre-paration of the table the term "reproduc-tive" has been interpreted as applying tothose undertakings the earnings from whichare sufficient to meet interest and sinkingfund charges. in a strictly economic sensethis interpretation would not, of course,

apply. Some of the undertakings that areclassified as partially reproductive may infact be the most reproductive because theyhave been the means of increasing the pro-ductive ca pacitv of the State to a value mnilytimes greater tan the initial lon x pendi-ture. For instanee, in tile last seven or eightyears the amount of butter manufactured inthis State-formierly about a millio loll s. was

1 ,rodueed-lhas increased 15 times. While allthe money spent on the provision of theworks that made such production possiblehas not been recovered, the productive capa-city of the State has increased to that ex-tent.

Honl' C' 0.' Latham: We are not sendingthat money out of the State.

The PREMIER: Some of it is still goingout of the State, but not so much. As amatter of fact, some of tile increased goodsso prodncet'are being exported. I do notwant to be an advertising, agent for theMurray-Wellington district, but I was in-terested to discover that up to 2,000 casesof condensed milk per week had been sentto the Eastern States in the last four orfive weeks.

Again, some of the non-productive workundertaken from loan moneys has speededup thle development of mining. Mining isclassified as partially reproductive, yet whoto-day Wvould deny thlat the loan expenditureon th~e development of mining in this Stateis exceedingly reproductive'? Gold mnininlgin the last six or seven years has increasedto the value of £7,000,000 . though admittedl 'ynot all of that increased production hasbeen the result of the expenditure of loanmoney. Mach has been due to the increasedprice of gold. Nevertheless a considerableproportion of the increased production hasbeen due to the expenditure of money inthe goldfields area from which we are notdirectly getting back interest and sinkingfund payments.

'Mr. Dancy: What are the directions inwhich you spent money in the goldfieldsal-ens?

The PREMITER: I Will tell the hon. mlen-her later: hbut one instance comes to mind.Norseman is one of the rising goldfields ofthe State. On that field a couple of ' -eurI.nao we spent over Z60.000 in order to pro-vide a water supplyv, without which the fieldcould not haove progrvessed. Last y~ear Weexpended £C3,000 in reticulation.

[1.7 NO4VEMBER, 1938 20f

Mr. Doney: The same has been clone atWiluna, of course.

The PREIER: Yes, and all. over theplace- When it is remembered that thevalue of gold produced this year wvas greaterthan the combined value of -wheat and woolmemibers will agree that the investment of asniall part of tire public debt in the develop-mrent and assistance of the gold mining in-duistry has been a wise move. The amnountof money we have expended from loanfunds, on mining development is very simallinl comparison with what we have spent onland developnient.

The shortage in the direct revenue earn-iigs, as compared with the charges for in-terest and sinking fund, is less than. halffire amount of special taxation yielded bythe g-ol mining profits tax, and when weattempt to estimlate the far-reaching eco-niomic gain to the whole State of the directemployment of thousands of men and ofthe distribution of most of the value of thegold won in wvages and mining costs, wereaqlise how much we are indebted to thegold ruining industry for the degree ofprosperity which to-day we enjoy. TheMinister for MAines; can tell the House thatof the increased sum derived from gold pro-duction a little over £1,000,000 was paid individends, but the rest has gone in wagesand] in other maintenance costs incidental toproduction. Some five or six years ago whenthe present Government was in office onlyabout 6,.000 or 7,000 mcii were employed inlthe goidmining industry, whereas to-day thefig-ure is between 17.000 and 18,000. Theindustry ha bs thus proved] of value to theGover-nment by reducing the number of mienfor whom employment has had to be found.

Hon. C. G. L~atham: The price of goldhas gone uip, too, has it not!

The PREIER: Yes, and ,iew goldfieldshave been opened up and new avenues forthe absorption of labour thus created. Ofcourse the introduction of labour-savingdevices has reduced production costs on thegoldfields. I was there not so long ago, andI notice that whereas at one time dozens ofmen were to be found above ground in andaround the plant, to-day there ReC onlyahont two or three. So that while a con-sideraible amount of employment has beenfound as a resuilt of the development ofmnining, the provision of labour-saving

aplinces has enabled gold to be prodlucedeconomically and at a profit.

Another undertaking to which the remarks1 have already marde couild apply, thoughuinfortunately to a lesser extent to-day, isthe assistance given to agriculture. I annwell awvare of the fact that, in the light ofexperience, expenditure on assistance toagriculture has been too heavy. If we werecommencing a new agricultural policy wewould pursue a different couse. Mucihof our progress from a pioneeringcolony to a well-established State, how-ever, is the result of a bold extension ofagricultur-al development. I rermemiber thatwhen I -was Minister for Railways I once,said we couild do with :30 per cent. less,railway mileage and perform an equallyadequate service for the people. There wasalso too much expenditure onl group settle-mrent. A good deal of the niorley was spentextravagantly arid was wasted. If we hadthat money again to spend in the samedirection we could develop the State for halfthe cost. Nevertheless the expenditure ofmoney onl such projects has been justifiedbecause new industries have been startedand the productive capacity of the countryhas been increased. It is easy to say, "Youhave wasted monley he rc and wasted mioneythere," hut the fact remains that the expen-dlitmire of the morney has proved of value tothe State. Althoughl it is difficult to geethack the nrormev by direct payment, we mustaill derive sonic benefit fromn the increasedproductivity of the country.

Mr. Bouncy: Losses of that kind are in-evitable in a new Country.

Thre PREMIER: The.; always seem tooccur; of that there is rio doubt. We uisedto hear a good deal about the wonderful]anid on the southmern rivers of New SouthWales arid the magnificent fertility of thesoil in the northern districts. We heardalso of the great productive capacity ofsonic places in Gippslamd, My opinion isthat with the increased ulse of fertilisers.and the development of irrigation anddrainage, the fertility of the soil ini theSonltlr- Wst of this State -will equal that oftire fertile lands of the Eastern Statesthat are ealpitalised at £60 or £70 an acre.It is gratifying also to knowv that people arcbeginring to recognise the p~rodumctiveca pacity of tire land, rrrd that there, is, iderrmand for land. M-alry groulp hioldin sz arclieirrg takzen iul by people anxiouls to cef' onlhrand which has demronistrated its produrctive,vaa rity as that hind has clone.

2209

2210 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Dontce-: Anid lain] with at reliablerainf all.

The PREMLIER: That is the ontstaidiiurfactur. The rainfall is probably the mostreliable in the world. There we can dependupJon rain at certain seasons, whereas othercounI'tries ait timies have floods and at othertimes dry periods. That bring-s me to thefact that one of the pressing needs of tileState is an adequate supply of water inareas removed from the heavy rainfall. Our)gr-eatest difficulty and severest handicap at-(4the absence of a good water shed 200 or 300miles in land. Actually our water shed is anlaverage of 20 to 40 miles inland from thecoast. All our areas of heavy rainfall aresituated onl tile western side of it stnl therivers carry that rainfall into the sea. Wehave to conserve that water, piup it over thehIIls kind convey it to the inlandl areas whoserainfall is much lighter than that on thecoast. Temporarily water is provided byeatchmnent areas in those districts, but dur-ing recent dry Years those catehmnent areashave proved themselves totally inadequate.

Mr. Doney: "Totally inadequate" is theright expression.

The PREMIER.: There is no dodging thatissue0. Then we get back to the old story.Shall we do the same as wve have done inregakrd to g-roup settlements? Canl wedeliberately, with our eyes open, undertakeanl expenlditure of £4,000,000 or £.5,000,000knowing that flit return we shall get fromlthe investment of that money directly-Iwvish to em phasise the word "direct] v''-wi IIb~e interest and sinking fund onl only aquj~arter of the expenditure? We need anlconomnic survey of tile whole position. Wemiust ascertain whlat benefit the water will beto the productive capacity) of the land.

%ir. Doney : We cannot judge yet wvhetherthe scheme wvill be ecollnically advan-tageote;. We have no partieula rs of thesemlle.

'The PREMIER: Recently the Ministerfov i% oits gave through the Press certainparticulars of the scheme. Further particu-lar'; will be supplied. Neither the Ministerfor Works nor I nor anyoile else can at thlisstage say wvhat the return will he from the

1)propo;d expenditure.Mr'. Stubhs : Mvan v farmers are dead

akgk ist laying taxes.'rte 1PREMIER : They remind mel of the

memiber for MlurraY- Wellington. Natural IlY,the artijel's lare opposed to paving, taxes.

M eminber': Fi tet's arre, kill t he wvorlId ovrj.

Mr~. a pita el : len ers of Pari'lamnent alirelililiiA it, too.

Tilt PREIJER: if people canl get ourof paying taxes, welI atl( good. The farmI-er5 iii question hlave their own w~ater' sup-p)1 U'; b)ilt the supplies of other farmers havegoie dry, and those farmlers are left stranded.Many, tarins could carry twice or three timlesthe stock they do carry if they had adequateand assured water supplies. Farmers are,not gaine to buy stock in view of the riskwith regard to water supplies.

Mr. Seward : That applies only in certaina leas.

Mr. Doney: It does not apply in the GreatSouthern, whtere there is at great (lea! otwater.

The PRtEMIER: Hut nlot sufficient.Mrfi. Doney: Yes.The [PREMI[ER: Then why all thle negitb-

tioni for water supplies?Mr'. Doney: Because the water cantnot Ibe

stored.The PREHIi: Then it is ],e good to the

farmers. Pa ri iilIit will have an oppor-tunity Of discussing the whole mlatter in thelight of what is intended to be done. WhenlParlianitt, with its eyes wvide open, deideswhat is to lie done in those districts, theGover'nment will lie ready to proceed. Asat prlesent we cannot see the end of theproject, wve are not justified in going Oilimmediately. We have been criticised on' thescore of delay. lIn reply I say it is to beregretted there was not longer delay beforeWestern Australia entered upon someschemes inl its history. The "West Austrak-hl" said the Mfinister for Works and theGovernment had givetn ant example of theacme of procrastination anld of Marathon de-lay in this matter. However, irrespective ofwhiat anl 'ybody, says, before we embark onla scheme involving the expenditure of£4,000,000, we are determined to have allpossible inlformation. Then, if with its eyesopen Parliament decides to carry out thescheme, icry well. Bat to start in, saying"We will discover later oil what we can etout of it," would be utnjustifiable. Betterhave a delay than be sorry for the rest ofour- lives.

Mr. Doney: RoughlY, hlow much more de-lay 'nay be anticipated?

The CHAIRMIAN: I think the Premierhadl better' not submit himself to cross-exami' nation.

L37 NOVEMBERz, 1038.] 22 11

The l'RE2IEl: For somec time past theexpert officers of thle Government have beeninvestigatinig proposals to provide adequatewater supplies throughout thle agriculturalareas; and though seie criticism has beenmade about the (lelaly in publishing particu-lais of what has been done, I aml, satisfiedthat no undue delay has occurred. If therehas been any' delay, I am not sorry for it,and I do not think either the House or thecountry will be Sorry' . Thle scheme, I. repeat,is estimoatedi to cost £:4,000,000.

Mr. Stubbs: Uf thle cost is to he as muchas that, the Bill wvill lot pass hoth Houses.

The pREM'IFR : The hon. member looksonly at his own district, bitt the scheme goesupl) as far as Daiwalliun and past LakeGrace and onl to thle other side of 'Merredin.It covers about 6,000,000 acres. It is a. hugeschlemle which will make at tremendous dif-ferenlee to thle country. but whether we canlaffordI it is something tlat remains to bedetermined. The country east of LakeBrowvn is part of thle scheme, as wellas the areas southward to Gnowangeriip..and east to Lake Grace, northward as far asflallinui and on to districts east of Dol-wallin. Tt also reaches to Geraldton. The.scheme represents a big question requiring,a great deal of consideration.

Mr. floney Will it permit of being putinto Op~eration piecemeal9

The l'RMITER: Yes, it w-ill. That is oneof the reasons wh 'y there has been some de-lay. 'We are now considering whether POT-tion of the scheme shall be put in for thepeople who need it. If Katanning andWaglin do not want it, they will not get it.To convey ain idea of the magnitude of thescheme to everybody, let nue point out thatits cost will lie a tr~emendous liability to becarried by a population of less than half-a-million. The only scheme comparable to itis the g oldfields water scheme, on which£C3,000,000 was spent by a Population Of200,000. We aie less than half-a-millionl now.and here is a £4,000,000 or £,5,000,000 schemeto be considered. It marst receive a greatdleal of consideration. Tt will have to betested from various angles, and time willhave to be taken over that. I do not mindif another 18 months' investigation is givento it so long as we know where we are whendiscussing it. It seems inevitable that thepeople who will receive the water will notlie able to pay for the scheme itself. EvenY-

thing dlep)ends onl the attitude of Parliamentwith regard to the proportion to be debitedto those people, and the proportion to henationalised, or spread amongst the taxpay-ers of the State. The financial burden of theschemeo is such that it wvill absorb a largeprop~ortion of thle loan money available. Inthe meantime we must get on with a fewlittle jobs that we have to do. When theState does embark on the big scheme, prac-I wall ,v ll[ the loan money available will beabsorbed. The cost will be about £1,333,000anana! h'v for three or four years. So therewill not be much money available for otherp)urposes.

Mr. Doney: The scheme will be a relief tothe Minister for Employment.

Tile PREMIER: There is that aspect also.With those few introductory remarks I getback to the Loan Estimates.

Turning now to a consideration of thefiguires themselves, we find that the estimatedloan expenditure for this year is £1,807,845,which compares with last year's actual ex-penditure of £2,315,004.

Railways and tramways last year absorbedf472,101, and this year's provision is£280,000. showing a decrease Of £.192,101.

Te reduction in the estimate for the cur-rent financial v'ear is due primarily to thefact that expenditure and commitments forrolling stock and trolley buses were muchgreater in J.9S17-38 than what is requiredthis yeal..

On additions and imp~rovemelnts to openedrailways Inst year's expenditure was£E134,925. The work consisted chiefly of re-hallasting, deviations and regrading. im-provenients to water supplies, installation ofmechanical coaling plants, miachinery for theMNidland -function workshops, and additionsand improvements generally. The principalworks were Toodyay-Bolgart ballasting.Quairading-Mount Hardy deviations and re-grading, Merredin-Southern Cross deviationand regrading, strengthening of bridges.IMullewva-Cue ballasting, and water suppliesAt Mullewva and Pithara. This year's provi-sion, £200,000, is for work of a similarnature, and includes new dams and roofingof dams to increase existing water suppliesso as to meet the demands of traffic. Mechan-ical coaling plants are being provided atvarious centres to replace existing coal binlsand thus expedite loading arrangemevits andeffect economy, by reduction of handlingcosts and of costs of maintenance of present

[ASSEMBLY.]

structures. While it is gratifying that weshall have more of our rolling stock manu-factured in the State, before one cariage ortruck is available we must spend a largeamount of money in providing the necessarymnachinery. Provision has been made forthe balance of plant required at MidlandJunction for the five-year rolling stock eon-struction programme, and also for buildingadditions iieeded for dealing efficiently andeconomically with the large amount of workcarried out in the shops, more especially inmaintenance and renewal of irolling stock.

For rolling stock the amount provided thisyear is £60,000, which compares wvith lastyear's expenditure of £C203,860. Last year'samount included anl expenditure of £54,000on rail cars, besides commitments onl otherlarge items. The provision for the currentfinancial year is intended to enable the de-pertinlent to continue with the rolling stockprogramme iii order to meet the increasingrcequiremnents of traffic. The rail ears havebeen operating from various country centressince December last, and have p~roved verysatisfactory' from the viewpoint of the de-partmnent and the public generally. The sixmonths' operations have resulted in a sur-plus of £5,539, after meeting interest, de-prediation and working expenses. The de-tails arc set out in the Commissioner's reportfor the year ended the 30th June last. Iremember when we were discussing the sub-ject of rail cars three or four years ago, itwas agreed that it would be wise to spendthis money. We have had experience of thecars, and our hopes, expressed at that time,have been realised by actual results.

Hon. C. G. Latham: They should havebeen purchased years before because we werelosing all that traffic.

The PREMIER: There are many thingswe should have done years before. Perhapswe should have secured the trolley busesbefore,

Hon. C. G. Latham: I still think that thetrolley buses represent a waste of publicmoney.

Mr. Marshall: Can the Premier tell uswhether the trolley buses will be taken toSouth Perth?

M1r. Cross. That would be a fine propo-sition.

Mr. Marshall: It would be better if wehad a trolley bus service from the town of'Wiluna to the mine.

The PREMIER: Events have fully justi-fied the installation of the trolley buses. Iknow that the Leader of the Opposition willnever agree that the Government acted wiselyin this direction; public support, however.proves that this form of transport is appre-ciated.

Mr. Doney: Have the buses had a detri-mental effect on the tramway system?

The PREMI1ER: No.Mr. Seward: What about the suburban

railway traffic?Hon. C. G. Lathamn: It cost a good deal

to remove the train rails from Stirliu--highwty

The PREMIER: I know that the traffichas more than doubled itself since the in-auguration of the service. That proves thatthere was need for the change.

Mr. Cross:, And the buses can be run for6d. or 7d. per mile less than it costs to runthe trains.

The PREMIER,: A few words aboutelectricity supply. Last year £30,000 wasprovided to meet commitments in connec-tion with the new "B" station. The totalestimated cost is approximately £662,000and the expenditure to the 30th June, lastwas £538,050. As final payments will notbe made until 12 months after the new unithas been taken over, loan funds will not berequired this year. Trials are at presentbeing made and it is expected that thestation will be in operation on the 1stSanuary next.

On the subject of harbours and rivers,the expenditure last year was £92,167, andthe estimate for the current year is £97,500.The con struetion. of Victoria Quay and"11 shed -was completed at the end ofSeptember, 1937. This Work concludedthe reconstruction of the whole ofVictoria Quay, and the rearrangement andalteration to the sheds, railway tracks,roads, etc. Similar work is now proceed-ing on the North Wharf. Reclamation workon the Swvan River foreshore was proceededwith and is being carried on this year, thelocal authorities concerned providing aproportion of the cost.

H~fon. C. 0. Latham: How much are youproviding for that?

The PREMIER: It all appears in the Es-timates. The local authorities are pro:.riding £C5,000 or £C6,000. Expenditure onthe Point Samson jetty reconstruction was£24,392. This work has been. comple ted and

[17 NovnxBnn, 1938.] 2213

the jetty was opened to shipping last Feb-ruary. An aniount of £:40,000 has been pro-vided for improvements to harhours andrivers. A soum of M1,000 has been providedfor work onl the North-West jetties gener-ally, including roilinug stock.

Onl water Supplies, sewerage and drain-aier throughout thle State, the expenditureJuast year was £903,377, and the amountprovided for 19:3S-39 is £E911,500. As indi-eating, the imnporta ne of these works, it isonly necessary to state that half the loanmoney to be expjenlded this year will bedevoted to the undertakings under thisheading. Reg-arding town water supplies,thle expenditure during 1937-38 onl the (ler-a 1(110, water supp~ly wi-s E11,440, which in-cluded boring for water at Wicherina, re-conditioning reticulation mains, extensionsand improvements generally. This is thethird successive winter of light rainfallin this area, and, as mighlt be expected, re-sulted in a poor inflow of water. The re-snlt of this was additional boring which.together with the reticulation of the town,is proceeding inl a very satisfactory manl-lDer.

Hion. C. 0. Lath am: Where are Yon put-fillg the bore-at Wieheri no

The PRE-MiER: No, right in the townof (4-raldton. Improvements to the towwater suipplies tit Narrogin, Derby andBridgetown were also carried out. At Nar-rogin the water position wvas very' acuteand necessitated improvements to thecatchinent area .ad the provision of puimp-ing plant.Ani amount of £12,000 has beenprovided for the Brunswick town anad rail -way water supply. The erection of tanksand wells onl stock routes has also beenprovided for.

Onl metropolitan sewerage and drainagethe expenditure last year was £235,977,while for this year the provision miade is£134,000, an increase of £98,023. Duringthe year sewerage wvorks and stormwaterdrains were carried out in the differentsuburbs, and( this work is being contiued.

Imiprovements and extensions were madeto existing uanius in the metropolitan area.During the year satisfactory progress wasmade with the Canning Dam, the wvall beingraised to a height of iS0ft., with a storagecapacity of approximately 7,000,000,000gallons. It is expected that by the 30thJune, 1939, the wall will be 162ft. high, andthe storage capacity will be 0,000,000,000

g allolis. Thus we should be quite safe inrespect of water supplies for the metropoli-tan area for some years to come. Up to theend of June, 1938, the expenditure on thedam was £712,728 and indications are thatthe work will be completed well within theestimate of £1,250,000. Indeed, we believethat the total cost will be about £100,000under the estimate. Credit must be givento all those who have been associated withthe undertaking and it must not he forgottenthat a great deal of the work carried outthere was performed by relief workers, menwho had never had experience of that kind.Tile supervising staff and the engineers con-nected with this great wvork are also due forcommendation.

For thle goldfields water supply, provisionmade this year totals £195,000 as against£218,749 last year. The principal workscarried out last year were-the completionof the reticulation of the Norseman town-site at a cost of £3,105; the provision tt'Northam of a new service reservoir of1,000,000 gallo101s to improve the townsupply: the cement lining of thle reticulationmains of Northam. Beverley' . Toodvay andR algoorlie was commlenced; the min'es mainat Kalgoorlie lvys increased in capacity byreplacing with 2Oin. cement-lined 'steelpipes, anl equivalent length of l6in. eastiron pipes that had been in use since 190.3,and which had become inadequate to supplyth .e increased (demand for wvater by th~eminles. The workc of renovating the maincondouit wasn continued. During the yearV% miles of new 30in, cemlent-lined steelPipes wvere, installed and 293/ miles of theoriginal main were replaced by cement-linedrenlovated S0in. lockingr bar: pipes. Thiswork accounted for the greater part of theexpenditure ad will be continued dur-ingtile current year. Besides reducing leakageand renovation costs very considerably, thework will ensure the useful life of tile' mainlboiliz prolonzed indefinitely. The cementlining of pipies for branch reticulation mainswill be c-ontinured. Other works provided forinelnrle imiproveiments and extensions tobranch aios. sorvicC reservoirs and theusnal extensions to town reticulations.

The expenditur-e on water supplies inother goldfills was as follows:-

Laqst Year. Thi Year.z E

Easternl flolrllields .- 721 6,000M,'rcliisnnl Goldfels. 4.965 8,000Pilbarti flohilcs .. - 500)

[ASSEMBLY.]

The principal works last year were-im-provements to Mfeekatharra, water supply,provision of a water supply at Vonanniiand boring at Big Bell. Provision has beenmade this year for reticulation of Big Belltownsite, improvements to Cue water supply,boring for water at Evanston and reticula-tions and extensions generally.

On wvater supplies, irrigation and drainagein agricultural areas we spent last year£117,214 and this year's provision amountsto £230,000. Last year the expenditure wason account of Collie and Waroona irriga-tion channel lining, and irrigation and drain-age generally in the South-West, the provi-sion of tanks in the agricultural areas, andthis is being continued this year. The pro-vision andl improvement of water suppliesto the goldfields, to which I have justreferred, cover one of the main necessitiesin the development of mining. An ilustra-tion of this is afforded by the growth of themining industry at Norseman.

In the development of the goldfields(apart from water supplies) the expenditurelast year was £28,475, and this year a sumof £41,000 has been provided, an increase of£.12,525. The expenditure lest year was forpurposes similar to those in previous years,being principally for assistance to prospec-ton, the erection and improvement of Statebatteries, and loans made nder the MiningDevelopment Act. The expenditure onassistance to prospectors was £5,56 ofwhich 0,831 was repaid by the personsassisted. During the five years in whichthis seherne has operated we have advanced£98,986 and the repayments have totalledL18,764. The assistance granted has beensupplemented by rants from the Common-wealth Government, of which last year thesum of £19,910 was expended. Up to the30th June last, the amount of Common-wealth money advanced to prospectors was£79,734.

With the exception of £3,000 of Com-monwealth money unexpended at the 30thJune last, the State this year has to meetthe full cost of assistance to prospectors,the Commonwealth rants having nowceased. A sum of £C21,000 has thereforebeen provided for the purpose. The miningindustry is of such importance, and hasgrown to so great an extent, that additionalexpenditure must be incurred to render thepreliminariy help necessary for the con-solidation of new gold finds and the pro-

vision of additional batten' facilities.Arrangements have been made to increasethe size of the State batteries at Marble Barand Mt. Magnet, and to provide a newcyanide plant at Coolgardic. When oppor-tuity offers, generous assistance will begiven as in the past, so that we may helpthe industry which has d]one so mueh forthe development of the State, particularlyduring depressed conditions in otherbranches of production. Whenever requestsare made to anc for money, I shall have nohesitation in doing my utmost to supply theneed. Western Australia owes a debt ofgratitude to the mining industry for whatit has done for the State.

The expenditure on the development ofagriculture, forestry, etc., last year was£E154,393, and this year we have provided£176,500, an increase of £22,107. Theexpenditure on abattoirs last year was£2,965, this being for additions and im-provements to the establishments at MidlandJunction and Kalgoorlic. The amount pro-vided this year, £3,000, is for similar work.The item "Development of agriculture" isfor reconditioning vacant holdings, landclearing at Wooroloo and Whitby Falls,settlement at Nannup, Nornalup andAlbany, and experimental work and build-ings on the Avondale and Wongan HillsState Farms. The expenditure last yearwas £81,294, and this year we arc providing£94,500, this being for work of a similarnature. The expenditure of £8,471 underthe heading of "Assistance to settlers, indus-tries, etc." was for advances to peerlers andbanana-growers, and a sum has been pro-vided this year for a similar purpose. Theamounts will not cover what we havealready ranted by way of assistance. Wehave advanced £15,000 or £16,000. I hopethis will be returned before the end of thefinancial year, and for that reason it doesnot appear on the Loan Estimates.

Hon. C. . Latham: That is for thepearling industry.

The PREMIER: To keep that industrygoing. The Minister for the Interior pro-mised, after his visit, that the policy ofproviding a bounty would be adopted bythe Federal Government. 'Unfortunately,owing to contrary influences, we do not knownow what is going to happen. We hopethat some assistance will be provided. Fail-ing that, the outlook for the pearling in-duistry will be anything but good. Unless

117 NovanaFEt, 1938.] 21

a large sum of toner is made available,most of which will not lbe returned, it seemsthat thle penrling industry wilt go out of

ex 'ec.We intend to make a big effortto provent this, hut a fairly large volumeof assistance wvill have to be given by thecoiuonwenilth Governent.

Last year thle e.~penditure on forestry u-asE61.576, in addition to which we received£25,000 from the Federal Government as thlefinal contribution under the CommonwealthAid to Forestry Scheme. We are g-ettingoto the end of the assistance that the FederalGovernment renders to the State in respectof several different aspects of development.To provide employment, the Commonwealth211vc yeC100,000 for forestry, and a consider-,qble amount for mining. This year wetreached the end of the grants provided bythe Commonwealth. The requirements fo~rdefence are such that the Federal Govern-ment cannot continue to make money avail-able to the States, and work that has beendone with the help) of the Commonwealthwill now have to be carried out by the State.At any rate, the utilisation of such amountsas we have had has enabled an extensiveprogrammue of -work to be carried out, in-eluding the regeneration of cut-over jarrahpnd karri forests, the establishment of mali-let plantations, the maintenance and exten-sion of pine plantations, and a considerableaniount of road and fire prevention con-;stritction. A sumn of £75,000 has been pro-vided this year for the carrying onl of thiswork. This is approximately £13,000 in ex-cess of last yearx's expenditure, due to thetermination of the Commonwealth grant.

The amount set down for roads andbridges is £50,066, but this includes £37,466spent last -year and charged to suspense, asthere was not sufficient loan authorisation.The amount of new monley, therefore, is only£C13,500, and this is required to meet comn-mitments left over from last year. So faras new works are concerned, I am hopefulit will not be necessary for us to incur anyloank expenditure upon roads. If the neces-sity arises, we may have to do it for thepurpose of finding employment, though Ihope the outlay will be small. The expendi-ture last year was principall 'y in respect ofassistance to local authorities, tinder thescheme which I explained in my opening re-woarks.

A sum of £9,000 hans been provided thisyear to continue the small loans scheme

inaugurated in 1933 under the admninistra-tion of the Workers' Homes Board. 3Nomonley has been provid ed for this for sometimne. When building was active, it was notthle pl~oicy of the Government to continuefinding money for this purpose. Theme isnow some slighlt falling-ofTt in building activ-ity, and we are providing for an extensionof the schemne, which besides assisting e'm-ploymnt and being at convenience to thlepublic, has been satisfactory front the finl-ancial standpoint. We have not lost any'money provided under the small loansscheme.

The expenditure last year on public build-,ings was £8,084, and -was for the erectionof and additions and improvements toschools, police stations, courthouses, publicbuildings generally, the sewering of p~uhlicbuildings, machinery for the GovernmentPriting Office, and the Government's por-tion of the cost of the Infectious DiseasesHospital. The expenditure allowed for thisyear is £92,000. Included in the provisionis a grant to the Hospital Fund to assistin meeting the cost of new buildings, includ-ing thme fund's portion of the cost of the newKing Edward Maternity Hospital TheLeader of the Opposition will recall that thecost of the upkeep of Wooroloo has beenhanded over to the Hospital Fund. Thisleft the fund short of money with whichto provide necessary buildings elsewhere, andwe have found it necessary to mnake a -rantto assist the fund.

Ani amount of £5,500 has heen providedfor water supplies on native stations, thepurchase and reconditioning of settlements,and additions and improvements to nativehospitals. The Workers' Homes Board hasbeen given additional capital of £C10,000,with which to augment the repayments ofcapital and assist in providing some of thehousing requirements of the people. Con-siderable progress has been made with therebuilding of Cave House at Yallinguip. Itis hoped to have this completed in time forthe tourist season. The expenditure lastyear, including commitments already enteredinto, was £18,922, and £6,500 has been pro-vided this year to complete the work. Asum of £3,500 has been allotted for the put--chase of a new launch for the -South Perthferry service. The expenditure last year onthe new ship "Koolamna" was £215,325. Ofthis, £212,800 represented the balance ofthle purchase price paid in London. The re-

2215

216[ASSEM-NBLY.]

mnainder, L2,525, was for legal and othercosts incidental to the purchase. The provi-sion of £12,000 this year represents the netcost of bringing the ship out, and pre-paring it specifically for the North-West.service. The vessel, which made it first tripon the North-West coast last May, has beenmost successful in her running, and she isproving a great acquisition to the service.

This completes my story of our loanundertakings. It is, I believe, a story ofsteady progress towards the building up ofa well-balanced economy, which must be ouraimi. The Government has a difficult task indeciding in which direction the limited loanfunds at its disposal should be expended.We must of necessity refuse requests which,to those who submit them, appear reason-aide and neessary, because of lack of fundsand of snore pressing needs in other direc-ten. Ifr we bad unlimited funds, there ismuch work we could do. It is, however,essential to keep) our expenditure in stepwith our, progress, and it is probably to ouradvantage that we should exercise the great-est caution in choosing the works to beundertaken. In common with the early his-tory of most countries, this State has con-centrated on the development of primary in-dustry. Although expensive from the stand-point of loan indebtedness, this policy hasled to a solid and sound foundation beinglaid.

It is an axiomi that no country can becomereally great without commensurate industrialprog-ress ifl its secondary industries. Oneneeds only to look at the history of GreatBritain, America and, more recently, Japan,to realise that the power and influence ofnations grow proportionately to their indus-trial development. Australia generally hasmade great forward strides in the last fewyears. If we in this State are to continueadvancing our relative importance, progressand development, we must plan to have morediversified industries, preferably manufac-tuiring snore commodities that are neces-sary for our own requirements. Withthle establishment of a bureau of in-dustry indicating, where and how Govern-ment encouragement and assistance shouldbe -iven, T amn hopeful that in the yearsimmediately ahead of uas the Loan Estimateswill be altered in principle so that we havea9 better-balanced development.

Althoug-h our primary industries have suf-feredI a setback because of adverse seasonal

conditions, I regard that as only a passingphase, although serious in its eonsequeneesto the State. A still more serious aspect isshe uncertainty of the prices that our corn-modities in the future will realise.

110on. P. fl. Ferguson: That wnay not bea passing phase.

The PREM11I : The adverse climiatic con-ditions are a passing phase, hut we do notk-now how far Ave shall have to go beforewe come to the end of the low price phase.If, however, we can maintain our' primaryproduction, and progress with our otherpotential industries,' we need have no fearor alarut about the future. On the contrary,we should be able to look ahead with entireconfidence, believing that the people of theState will be afforded ample opportunity toachieve security and prosperity.

Progress reported.

itfig suispentded fromi (.1.5 to 7..3O pm.

BILLS (2)-THIRD READING.

1, Fisheries Act A mendmient (No. 2).

2. Road Districts Act Amendment(No. 2).

'r~aistitted to the Council.

BILLS (2-RETURNED.

1. Financial Emergency Tax.

2. Financial Emergency Tax AssessmentAct Amendment.

Without amendment.

BILL-INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT ACTAMENDMENT (No. 2).

Second Beading.

THE PREMIER (-Ron. J, C. Willeock-flernldton) [7.33] in moving the secondreading said : The Bill is similar to thatwhirls was initroducedi a few days- ago, buthas since been withdrawn, with the excep)-tion tha t the provision dealing with rates ofdeduction to he made as r-ntributionstowards the incomep tax to be as;eser later,has- been deleted. I have already' explainedthe provisions of the Bill and feel it uin-necessary- to repeat what I said previously.A separate Bill will he introduced in-

2216

(17 Novamaim, 1938,]2'1

mediately dealing with the rates deduction..1 move--

Thatt the Bill be now read a second timie.

Oil motion hy Hon, C. G. Latham. debatea ci oiirued.

BILL--INCOME TAX (RATESFOR DEDUCTION).

Second Beading.THE PREMIER (Hon. J. C. Willeck-

(keraldton) [7.35] iii moving the secondreading said : This Bill is complementary tothe one, [ hare just placed before members..it is shor-t and the purpose is simple. Theintroduction of the Bill has been renderediivtessary because tine House took somne ex-ception. to the inclusion in the one Bill ofprovision for the collection of instaliiientsof income tax. When the comprehensiveBill was introduced, a point of order was;raised regarding the inclusion of that provi-sion. I considered then that the Bill 'was inorder and I still think so. On the otherhand, I do not desire to delay the passage ofan important Bill by discussing technicali-ties, particularly as the difficulty is easilyovercome by the introduction of the presentBill, which is in accord with the StandingOrders and in order in every way. If thisis the method members consider the better,I certainly have no objection to dividing thecomprehensive Bill into two measures, sothat both phases may be discussed sep-airately. 'Naturally the Bill must he read inconjunction with thie Ineoine Tax AssessmentAct Amendment Bill (No. 2), the seond-reading of which I have just moved. TheBill deals with deductions only and the ratesaire the same as those included in the originalBill. They are 6d. in the pound on allwages and salaries under £8, and 9id, in thepound on all wages or salaries exceeding £8.Memibers will see that deductions may hemnade despite the fact that Parliament mar'%-not have fixed the rate of tax to be imposed.A per~son would have to he a super-optimnistif he thought the State could do without theincomie tax altogether-

Mr. Watts: We may dream about it.The PREMIER: We all know such a Bill

must be introduced and that, in accordancewith the reception of such measures durinirthe last 25 years, wvill he passed in one formnor another. The Bill provides that pendigthe fixing of the rate of tax, payments mayhe made in instalmnents, notwithstanding

that assessmients of income tax have notbeen issued. The s ystemi outlined has beenin operation in Victoria and South Auis-tralia, and the legislation is somiewhat similarto that operating in Great Br-itain. 'Thesystem apparently mecets with general ac-

ceptanee byv those, who have to pay the tax.Naturally thVie ari gemnent does no t suit thedepartmenut whose convenience would he nucKto a greakter' degree if onle paynment onlywere involved. In that event, one receiptwonid he tendered and the whole tian osationwould he completed. On the other hand, thesystemt has proved of convenience to theI-iblie. I anticipate that somne difficult.) wvillhe experienced ait the iiceition, bitt whenthme scheme is in working order, I think theeffect in 'Western Australia will be similarto that in other States where it has beenadopted, and no desire will be indicated toreturn to the system of one lump sumn pa%'-mieat. The proposal for the payment ofinstalments prior to assessment will, I be-lieve, meect with tie approval of themajority of taxpayers. I Move-

That the Bill be now read a second time.

On inotion by Hon. C. G. Latham, debateadjourned,

ANNUAL ESTIMATES, 1938-39.in Committee of Supply.

Resumed from the 15th November; Mr.Sleeman in the Chair.

Public Utilities:

Vote--Railivays, Tramwsays, Ferries andElectricity Supply, £63,315,200:.

MR. SEWARD (Pingelly) [7.40]: I havenot a great deal to say on the Railway Esti-mates, because during the Address-in-replydebate I dealt with mnatters affectingthe administration of the railways, Thefirst subject I shall mention was indicatedin the questions I asked the Minister thisafternoon in connection with the Kalgoorlierefreshment room. To mec it is a pity thatvisitors from the Eastern States can findcause for complaint under that heading. Imet sonic who arrived the other day, andwhen T asked them how they enjoyed thetrip, they said everything was quite all rightexcept the meals supplied at the Kalgoorlierefreshment room.

Mr. Warner: They must have had one ofGerman's pies!1

2217

[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. SEWARD: I asked if they intendedto lodge a complaiut, and they said theyproposed to do so. Apparently they did notcarry out their intention. This is by nonmeans the first time a complaint has beenvoiced regarding the railway refreshmentrooms. Considerable time has elapsed sinceI last travelled over the Transcontinentalrailway, but I recollect that on that occasionthe best meal served throughout the journeywas the one after we left Kalgoorlie. Thatwas the uinanimous opinion of the pas-sengers. The meal was by no means elabo-rate. As the memiber for Kalgoorlie (MNr.Styants) said last night, an elaborate mealis not required onl the train. At any rate,I think it at pity that inter-State pas-sengers could voice a complaint about themeal provided by the Kaigoorlie refreshmentroomn. The matter should be looked intoby the Minister because, as I said before,this is by no means thle first complaintregarding the refreshment rooms underthe charge of thle iresent lessee.In the Commissioner's annual report,he mentioned that last Y-ear criticismwas offered regarding the State railways incomparison with those of South Africa. Inhis comments the Commissioner refers solelyto the financial phase. Last year I wasparticularly careful when comnpaiing ourrailways with those of South Africa to ex-clude inarcial considerations because it isimpossible to comipare tile two systemsf rom that aspect. In South Africathe Commrissioner- of Railways deals not011lv with tho raiilwvavs. bitt with harbours.cal ines, airways,, and other servicesaind the whole concern has a capitalisationof, if I remeitber arighit, about £151,000,000.Consequently, T would not dream of conw-pmaring- out-railwtayr systemn with that ofSouth Africa. Tine criticismn T offered waswith regard to the provision for the travel-ling public. I cannot allow the Commlis-siler to get away with his comments asthoug-h the criticism related to financialconsiderations. Onl tine other hand, I com-mnended the South African author-itiesfor the manner in -which they had overcomewhat is describedi as unfair competitionarising from the use of mnotor trucks- Theyimproved their passenger accommodationnd speeded uip the railways; with the resultthat the lost passenger traffice was largelyrecovered.

The M1inister for Railways: But thie rail-wars control the road traffic in South

Africa. If they lost traffic, to whom didthey lose it?

M1r. SEWARD: They regained their pas-seniger traffic. I quoted the figures lastyear. I think the passenger traffic regainedrepresented, in four Years, somnethinglike 20,000,000 passeng~er journeys, where-as in this State we were losing,and are still losing, our passenger traffic.I shall deal with that phase a little later.The member for Canning (Mr. Cross) com-mented upon the financial results of ourrail-way system and attempted to show thaton all the undertakings uinder the controlof the Commissioner-ferries, electricitysupply, tramways and railways-at surplus;of £12,000 had been disclosed. I desire todraw attention to the following pa ra rrapin the report of the Auditor Genral-

'rle interest lcarge brought into the "'Comn-mierim] Aceounmts" prepamrvc by the Raiilwaysis lower and, Ilcesumat>v does not include ex-change, consequently their accounts are pre-seated. on a miore favusile basis titan thoseof other concerns.

It is extraordinaryv that while other Stateconcerns include exehlanee in their interestcharges, the Railway Department shouilomnit it and consequentl 'y be able to p resenta more favourable balanice sheet. That is;not right. The general rule should applyto the Railway Departmntt, so that its ac-counts. can undergo the sanic tests as thos:eot' other departments.

I regret to learn that the bulk handlingrfacilities that were promiised for Fremantlehave not been proceeded with, because theremay be a difficulty' in selling our wheat thisEyear and the question of storing it will prob-ably arise. I am aware that the money we~hoped to obtain from the Lean Council toprovide this facility was not obtained. That,however, need not have deterred tile Govern-ment, as the coImpanyl concerned is able, ifnecessary, to obtain capital and build] thewtorks without eo-t to the Governiment. Itwould pay- the Convernmtent to let the coni-pany erect the works. because then truckswould be liberated and the handling of our,wheat materially facilitated. Somne consider-ation should be given to the offer of thecompany to erect this facility. I do not re-2card as le ritianate the excuse that theGlove rn men t has5 nat the money available toproceed withl the works.

I congratulate the department uponl theFact that last year 352 new~ OXA truceks wereconstructed and put into commissio, I

(17 NOVEMBER, 1938.] 2219

notice the department is making povisionfor another 50 of these trucks. They arevery valuable and have been favourablycomniented uipon since theyw3- ere first puton the line. The intimation that this extraprovision is being niade will be pleasing tothe producers of fat lambs and sheep owners.The other nighlt the M1inister commentedupon the fact that the department had beenforced to provide openi trucks for the car-v ae of sheep last year, hut that u-as notthe fault of the department. It was the faultof the brokers for arranging, sales on sute-ceding days. I was able to prove by corres-ponitenee that thle brokers (lid not give thedepa rtment sufficient time, in my opion to

pr-ovide trucks. The b~rokers eonlduved asale of 10,000 or 15,000 sheep onl a particu-lay day, and ordered the trucks only on themorning of the sale. Obviously, the depart-mient wvas not given a fair chanice to providethe trucks. J express the thanks of thesheepowvners of the State for the provisionby the department of the extra trucks. AttIme same time, I desire to renew the appli-cation I made some time ago that when largebogey trucks are supplied to sheep ownersin the southern part of the State, provisionshould be made to divide the trucks into twocompartments. I uniderstauid that is not re-quired by the pastoralists in the north. Inthe Great Southern districts, however, thesheep are loaded at the side and get a veryrough passage in the truck. There is a. largenumber of sheep in each truck anad, wviththe shaking and the jerking, they are bangedfrom one end of the truck to the other, theresult bci zig that many are injured and sonickilled before the arrival of the train at Mid-land Junction. I hope the Commissioneorwill favourably consider this request.

I notice from the Commissioner's reportthis year that there is a falling off of 632,527in the number of suburban passenger j .our-ney s. 'the Coummissioner says-

The substantial decrease in time suburbantraffic-632,527 journeys for £10,476--althoughdisconicerling, wNvs not uexpected. Investigal-tion d iseloselI the falling off was mainly be-tween Perth and Frenmantle, where road faci-lities are excellent bjothi for private cars androad vehicles.

When introducig these Estimiates, the Min-ister said that a fair- number of niew% trolleybuses had been putl into service. The Pm-mer, when speaking on the Loan Estimatesto-day, said that the trolley bases havebecome popular and arc wveil litm-on-

iced. That is obvious. People wantthe most up-to-date and best meansof transport. -No one would[ contend to-daythat the railways, or even the tramways,are superior to trolley: buses. I submit forThe Minister's consideration the sugges-tion that the department should considerseriously whether the time has not arrivedwhen the department should abandon sub-urban railway traffic altogether. When thisform of transport was introduced, it wasthe best available and naturally receivedthe patronage of the p)eopIe. Tile railwaysa ad tramwa -s wore, however, laid low,,in the more closely settled suburban areas.Times have changed. I venture to say thetrain service is no longer convenient to 7toper cent, of the suburban areas. Conse-qruently, thle mode of travel for the futurewill be motor buses allid trolley buses.

The Chairman of the Melbourne Train-ways Trust has only recently returnedfromt a world tour, after having made athorough investigation into transport prob-lens in v-arious pa rts of the wvorld. Onhis return hie delin itely said that trolleybuses wvould not be inmsta lled in Mlelbourneobecause they were noe longer the most up-to-date ieans or transport. Of course, thleCollie coal ques tion largely influences, utsin the use of trolley buses. I bring thisparticular phase undler the -Minister's no-tice, however, so that lie may' give it con-sideration when tile extension of travel-linlg facilities to oilr outer suburban areasis under discussion. There should be nofurther extension of the tramway system.

The Minister for Railways; The Mci-b~ourne T ramnways Traist is puttinug ondouble-deck buses.

Mr. SIWARDI: Only for the outer dis-tricts.

The Minister for Railw~ays: In Bourke-street.

Mr. SEWARD: No.The Minister for Railwayq. The chair-

man must have changed his mind, becausehie said the trust intended to electrify thletramway system.

Mr. SEWARD: I will send the Minis-ter the cutting from which I obtained my'information, so that lie may correct him-self. The chairman of the MelbourneTramway' Trust said he was importing ainew engine from Germany' which, in hisopinion, would revolutionise the transportbusiness. T think Errin is the name of thA

2220 [ASSEMBLY.]

engine. If I am not mistaken it is a gasengine. At all events, this authority, thechlairmlan of the, trust-I take it he is anauthority-was sent Home to inquire intothe matter, lie is convinced that the Errinenginle is the engine of the future. Hemadec tile statement that trolley buses wereno longer the best means of coping withlarge suburban traffic. Since reading thatteport, I notice that trolley buses are los-ing- favour in England. I do not press theabandonment of trolley buses in this State,because they are necessary to safeguardthe interests of our Collie coal mliners. Iagain urge the Minister that the questionof the abandonment of the suburban rail-way traffic should he seriously considered,because in my opinion that money could beused to better advantage in other partsor the State.

I wish particularly to mention countryibrunch lines, which arc in the same stateto-day as they were 25 or 30 years ago.Mixed passenger and goods trains run overthese lines, and some of the trains occupynine hours for a journey of 80 miles. Irefer to the line between ]{ondinin andKarrogin. On arrival at Narrogin, one hasto stay there overnight and continue thejourney to Perth tile next day. In myopinion, branch lines should have Dieselcars. These arc provided on the main linesfrom Perth to Katanning and Merredin.Passengers on those lines travel comfort-ably and fast enough; but settlers alongthe branch lines in country areas, who haveso many difficulties and troubles to over-come, are the people who should be pro-vided with fast passenger trains. I amconvinced, as I said last year and onother occasions, that if Diesel ears wereprovided for the branch lines, the railwayswould receive greater patronage. It is onlybecause a journey over branch lines toPerth occupies two or three days that thepeople in those districts are forced to dis-regard the railways and avail themselvesof motor cars or trucks.

The Minister for Railways: There arenot enough people on the branch lines topatronise the railways.

Mr. SEWARD: I amn convinced that thepeople in those country areas would travelby train if the facilities were improved. Illop)e the M1inister will give consideration to

mn'y suggestion. When introducing theseEstimates, the Minister told us that the Rat-

goorlit express had been speeded up, andhe mentioned that the engines on that linehad been renamed. I seriously ask him itlie wvillI consider renaming the engines onl theAlban ' line, if it will have the effect ofspeeding up the Albany express.

The Minister for Railways: That expresstravels at the rate of 40 miles an hour.

Mr. SEWARD: I think it unfair thatpeople travelling froml Albany to Perthlshould have to put up with so many stopsenl route, even including stops at suburbanstations from Midland Jnaction to Perth.I do not want the express to travel at 40miles anl hour; that would probably be unl-safe onl our lines.

The Minister for Railways: But theAlbany express does travel at that speed.

Mr. SEWARD: Many delays at smallcountry stations, such as Spencer's Brook,should be avoided. On Friday nights theAlbany express leaves Perth and stops onlyat Midland Junction, Chidlow and Spencer'sBrook. The same stops are made onl thejourney when the train arrives in Perth onlFriday mornings. The express should stoponly to take in water. That is a fair re-quest to make. The express should not stopat so many country stations for refresh-meats. At present the Albany express stopsat itatanning, Wagin, Narrogia, York, Bev-erley, Spencer's Brook and Chidlow. Thepassengers do not want to obtain refresh-ments at all those places. If people join-ing the train at any of those stations desireto obtain refreshments, then the refreshmentroom could be opened a quarter of an houror 20 minutes before the arrival of thetrain. Passengers do not want to get outof a train at 1, 2 or 3 O'clock in the morn-ing to have a cup of tea; they would preferthe train to proceed to its destination. I hopethe Minister will be able to do something.to avoid the unnecessary stoppages. TheCommissioner, in his report, refers to thefact. that much traffic is lost to the railwaysthrough competition by motor buses. I maybe permitted to quote a case to show thatit is not altogether the motor buses that takethe business from the railways; it is oftenthe fact that the railways do not botherabout getting the business. I wvish to mn-tion the ease because it is authentic and itcame under my notice last year. A businessman conducting an electric lighting- stationheard of a boiler that was for sale in thecountry, probably 200 or 300 miles away.

(17 NovvNmn, 1938.]

He went there to inspect it and saw that itsatisfied his requirements. On his return heinterviewed the railway authorities and askedfor a1 quote for the conveyance of the boilerto the destination where lie des:ired to haveit. In dute course the quote camei from theR ailway Department and it was sbout £:100.The manl said that lie could not pay t hatsum and hie would have to leave the boilrrwhere it was. 'Ihe, Railwa 'y 1)epartnmentadopted the attitude 'That will hie thefreight: take it or leave it:' As the boilerwals needed, the purchaiser thought the mat-ter over aind discovered that it would Ima'eto travel for a certain distance over theMidland line, Approachig the MlidlandRailway Company lie asked for a quote forthe removal of the boiler. The reply lie g-otfrom the Midland Comipanyv was that themanager -would be only too pleased to dis-cu-ss the matter with him aind,' onl calling aitthe Midland Company's office, the subjectwas investig-ated and the quote given himwas between £C50 and £C60. The result wasthat the MNidland Company got the lob andbrought the boiler down. There we have aninstance where the Government ia ihI ays, In'adopting thne attitude of "take it or- leaiveit" lost revenue which was secured hr dieAlidland 'Railway Company.

i-on., P. 1). Ferguson: Y-et the MNidllandCompany for a trucki of bulk wheal willcha rge You a jolly sight mnore.

IIr. SEWARD: I ami not dealing withwheat. If the M-inister desires to have it,

Io ral ive hint the namev of the person w'hoentered into thle conitract with the MAidland(Comnyi for thle removal of the boiler. Thatis, anl Instance that bears out that the Hi-til-way Departmen't does nlot sCem to careTw'hether it gets business or ilot. The ;itii-tulde of the department is such that the~l'lplP, in the countr y distryicts fail to undler-stand it. The nmatters to which I hanve re-ferred atre all that I desire to mnentionl onlthle 'Estimates. I trust thle Mlinister will takeSome Ilotice of theml, and evell though thlerailwalys may SaY that I amn againlst then,I assure the Mfinister that that is not so. Ifthie department wouild only consult the people-who use thle railways, the officials wvouldprobably get a considerable amount of helpbecause the customeis of the department cansee a great deal mnore than the person whosits, in the office. or who goes out probablyin the Commissioner's ear. If the depart-init invited tile eo-opei'ation of the publi.-,

the railways would in the end receive verymiuch better patronage than they have hadduring' the last few years.

MR. SAM5PSON (Swan) [8.4]: amig'lad to have the opportunity to record myappreciation of the remarks of the Ministerin respect of the extension of electric cur-rent to the outer districts that are so greatlyin need of it, I amn gratifted that the Minis-tri as stliefiientl3- inlterested to make a per-sonial inspection of thle districts I represent,and that hie appreciated the opportunity thatexists, in the outer suburban districts for thleextension of current. When the extensionsaire made, there will he established such anlera of prosperity that will miark anl epoch inthe progress of thosie outer districts. Theextenlsions will mnean an increase of popula-tion and a decrease in the number of thosewho, by force of cicmtneare cOi-polled toaccept sustenance. Though onemight well be pardoned for feeling some re-Vret that so many years have passed sinceextens ions were findA soughit, nevertheless,hope springs, eternal and it appears that wearec onl the threshold of a definite advance.I lhope the iremarks of the Minister will bereflected by a readv acquiescence onl the partof the Treasurer to find the necessary funds,and I know that whenl the extensionsare mlade there wiill lip fill] justifiea-tionl for thle money tha t has beeniexpended, I have always been amazedthat the GOVer-uIent has nlot benprepared to find the small amount necessaryto carry out this work because, as I havesaid on other occasions, the extensions ofcurrent to the outer Suburban districts would:make a gi-eat; difference in the revenue i--

eivecl froni other sources. If there is anysincerity in the general viewpoint that hasbeen expressed, d efini te encouragementshould be given to people to move oat fromthe city' and to live better, more useful andlonger lives in the outer suburban a reas. Thleposition regarding the Electricity SupplyDepartment as disclosed by the reportsplaced before us is gratifying. The profitsfor the year amounted to £-El1,810, as oiln-par-ed with £24,001 for the previous I?-months. That is proof that of all theGovernment utilities none produces are turI-n equal to that of the ele-tricity supply. We 'must realise, too.that the excellent profit of Li.sio81 re-;lilted after provision was made for the pay-

9..).)[ASSEMBLY.]

inent of the inicreased basic wage. That isall the more satisfactory. I notice also thatthe power station is gVenerating wore cur-rent. In 1934 the figures were 91,000,000kilowatts, and in 1938 122,000,000 kilowatts.I trust that current wvill be made available,as f have already said, to the outer subur-ban areau-. to enable those areas to advane.~They cannot expect to do so unless theyget this facility. A living cannot be ob-tained from fruit growing- or vegetable pro-diuction unle1ss cheap power is provided. Irepeat that I appreciate the practical in-terest displayed by the 'Minister in visitingthe districts that -will be affected, and I amhopeful that as a result of that visit therewill be an early consultation with the Trea-surer and a decision arrived at to make theextensions.

MRB. HILL (Albany) [8.12]: Our rail-ways receive quite a lot of adverse criticism,and I am afraid that a big proportion ofthat criticism is justified. Comparisons withour railways and those of South Africashow us up in a very bad light. T do notag(ree( with those who contend that the twocountries are not comparable. We have moreto learn from South Africa than has anyother country, but our trouble is that theGovernment of this State is not out to learn,as it should -be. it is in a groove, and willnot shift. I realise that South Africa hascheap labour, cheap coal, a population of2,000,000 Europeans and 6,000,000 non-Europeans, hut our transport problem isvery similar to theirs. They have a big areato serve, as we have. The revival in gold-mining is largely responsible for theirprosperity. It has also saved this Statefrom bankruptcy. Nature has been farkinder to us than it has been to them.Although their railways have been con-structed with cheap labour the average coatper mile is over £9,000, compared with£6,000 in Western Australia. Admitted thattheir railways have heavier rails, engines,etc., than have ours; they need theheavier rails and engines because ofthe nature of the country. We haveone tunnel in this State, while on oneline in South Africa, .300O miles in length,there are about 16. Further, we have hadto spend very little on bridges, whereasSouth Africa has had to spend millions.Our troubles in this State are largely dueto the obsession that a reduction of railway

mileage means reduced cost. The policy ofcharging railage on a mileage basis isresponsible for this state of affairs, and theresultt is that we have railways and portsall over the place.

There is hardly a part of the State which,at some time or other, has not had its petrailway or port scheme, and because of thisour administration, ais compared with SouthAfrica's, is severely handicapped. There theaverage charge is Id. per ton per mile; inthis State it is 1.76d. Their railways madea profit of L6,400,000 last year, ours withsinking fund and exchange a loss of£C250,000. South A-frican ports made aprofit of £677,000; ours made a loss of£34,000. I will briefly endeavour to showwhere we can learn from that Dominion.First, let us compare the administrations.All their railwvays, ports, bulk handling, tour-ist activities, airways, steamships and motorservices are under the general manager ofRailways and Harbours, who is responsibleto the Minister for Railways and Harbours.We have our railways, which represent 30per cent. of our total State debt, adminis-tered by the Minister for Railways. Ourports are controlled in two cases by localharbour authorities, in some cases by theRailway Department , and in others by theHarbours and Lights Department.

Mr. Wilson: And South Africa employsblack labour.

Mr. H4ILL: We wvant to learn what wecan from them and not worry about otherthings. The Minister for our ports is theChief Secretary, who is also Minister forState Shipping. Our Tourist Bureau isunder the Premier's Department. OurTransport Board is under the Minister forWorks, and we have the Minister for Landsmessing around with bulk handling.

The Minister for Mines: Why messingaround!Y

Mr. HILL: I will explain it some othertime.

The Minister for Mines: You're out oforder in "messing around."

Mr. HILL:- In 1929 a committee wasappointed by the Commonwealth Oovern-ment to report upon transport in Australia.Part 6 of that committee's report reads-

Co-ordinaition cannot be effected solely by tmepassinig of Acts and regulations containingvarious restrictions.

A suitable organisation to meet the require-ants of the different States is necessary, to-

e).,).,) _)

(17 NOVEMBER, 1938.] 222,;

gether w-it], adequate executive authority totarry out its duties effectively.

T'he organisation will vary with the condi-tions in eaich State, but action along the fol-lowing lines is suggested:-

(a) All tr-ansport activities to be groupedunder the one 'Ministerial head, wh~o wvill be re-sponsible for the whole transportation policy.

(b) Thle establishment of a co-ordinatinga nthoritv' which would be responsible for Carry-ing out the transport policy approved by tlieO overumlent.

(e) Thle co-ordinating authority may takethe form of one of the following:-(1) Com-missioner of Transport initl, advisory commit-tee; (2) Transport Board; (3) Advisory court-tii representative of interests concerned.

T nam convinced that bad our Governmentcarried out this and other recommendationsof the Common10wealth Committee, our rail-ways would bare been in a much betterposition to-clay. Some people consider thatwith the development of motors, railwaysarc obsolete. In South Africa, the authori-ties are Continually aiming at improvementsin their transport. In September, 1936, aeonference of the leading administrators ofall British territories in or adjacent toAfrica was held to discuss transport prob-lems. This conference appointed a com-mittee, and on page 34 of the report of theSouth African Railways., and Harboursappears the following:-

This committee, being impressed by the ur-gent need that :1ll forms of transport should hedeveloped along sound and economic lines, re-solves-

(a) That the railways are a vital factorin agricultural development and ian Pre-serving the primary industries lbf anycountry;

(b) That the existing long-establishedworld-wide railway policy of charging highrates for valuable traffic and low rates forprimary products is essential to stimulateand nmaintain primary production;

(c) That the policy mentioned in thepreceding paragraph is seriously imperilledwhere uncontrolled competition with therailways by other forms of transport isallon-edi

(d) That having regard to what is statedin paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), a schemeof control of transport is necessary in thebest interests of any country;

anid reeommends that suitable legislation beintroduced. in nil territories to bring this about.It believes that such legislation is not onlynecessary in the interests of the public as awhole but also in the best interests of eachform of transport, inasmuch as the security andstability thereby attained would encourage theinvestment of capital in establishing or im-proving transport undertakings.

It has been found ntecessar-y ii. most Count-tries during recent years to adopt legislativemeasures for thle control of public transport,and the following brief summary of the out-standing features of tire most recent legisla-tion in other countries, as set out in the UnitedStates Department of Conmnmerce publication,' 'Railways a nd H-ighways TransportationAbroad,)'' andl in thle '' International RailwayCongress Bulletin,'' is of interest:-

Australia (Quecasland).-Road vehiclescompeting wvith the railways are taxed atthle rate of I~d, per ton per mile, andI'Ad. per passenger per mile, on all goodsand passenger traffic conveyed. These taxesarc in addition to the ordinary motor tax.

Australia-Road tr-ansport parallel torailways for distances exceeding 62 milesis prohibited.

Belgiumn-Transport services competingwith railways Must pay anl indemnity tothe railways.

Czeehoslovakia.-fleavy restrictions arePlaced on motor vehicles operating for agreater distance than 18 miles, exceptwhlen such services are acting as feeder ser-vices to tile railways. Onl heavy lorries ,asuiler tax, approxima tely three times asgreat as the ordinary tax, must be paidby all1 operators who do0 not enter intoaworking agreement wvith, the railways.Hungary and Rumania-Road transporthas been declared a State monopoly. TheState, however, can let out to private con-tractors the right to operate services undercertain conditions.

Italy.-Road transport vehicles are taxedonl a ton-mileage basis, which has theeffect of discouraging long-distance traffic.Taxes on road goods transport are utilisedto subsidise inland water services and motorlorry services which act as feeders to therailways.

Switzerland.Operators of road passen-ger services which compete with railwaysare required to pay to the railways a spe-cial tax of two Centimes per passenger permile to compensate the railways for loss Pofrevenue.

Tasmania Velieles competing with therailways are taxed from 2% per cent, to8Y- per cent, on the revenue earned, ac-cording to distances over which they com-Pete.

Overseas Visits.The Granet Commission in its report pub-

lished in 1934, stressed the value of contactwith railways overseas, as follows:-

We desire to call special attention to thegreat benefit to be derived from sendingmembers of. theirailway staff to studyrailway methods in other countries.

Mr-. Needham: Wha~t are you quoting,from ?

Mr. HILL: From the last report of theSouth African Railway Department. TheGI-anet Commission's report continues:-

While it is not contended that every-thing done elsewhere is either right or

224[ASSEMBLY.]

anpiplicable to conditions at home, we havetoand tromn actual experience on our re-spective railways that apart from the edii-eantionai value of such visits to the officersc-oncerned, tire financial benefits arisingthrerefromn far outweigh their cost. Inorder to obtan tine best results, such visitsshould he systema~tic rind frequent, and ofsnuffiient duration to enable tine officerscuurcerined to make a thorouigh investiga-tion of tine subjects entrusted to thenmaccording to aI defineod programme. Ontheir return, tine results of their investiga-tions should be carefully considered with aviewv to deciding to winat extent tire infer-inlation obtained could be mlade use of athome. In many, cases it mnay be foundnecessary to repeat tire visit, not necessar-ily by tine sanme officer. Ini this connection,Our experience has convinced us that itpays to inave almost continuous series ofthese investigations. In certain cases itmay be found henreficial to arrange for anexchange of officers for aI comparativeplyextended period, so that a particular prob-lem may be investigated in all its aspects.

The gemnerali malnager of the South Africjanrailways, conninenting, oil the report, said-

I ann in full accoird withr the views expressedby tire Conmnission, and( in recent years ma-nyinvestigations have been carrieri out overseasinto railway problems covering a, wide field,but mrore partic~ularly into techirical nmatters.In addition to sending officers to other coun-tries to inquire into problems, advantage isfrequently taken of tine presence overseans ofaii officer wino is onl extended. leavxe of absencefor tine purpose of inquiring into questionsaffecting his particular sphere of work.

Subjects which ihave been investigated inother counitries inl recent years include rail car(levelopnnent; catering arraingemnts on trains,and inl railwary rest:a (ra ri ts, a ad catering pn-ac-flees generall-y; stores metinods; air-craft. de-velopnnrnit aid problems relating to tine Opera-t ions of (-ivi] :irwa as generally; recent develop-mnents in signalling imetlmodls-. developments inlinternal cumn stioin enigines, aiad op~erartions ofroadl monrtor servi-us gerrera fly; colec-trifica tion;a jr-con'itliorninig of 1nssnnger roling stock."Apart from these inventigations, officers arealso sent overseas to represent, the ardmninistram-tion at congresses, and othner meetings, at whichmnatters of anl implortant character relating torailways ar- diiscussedl, anil ini this ira valuablen-orrtar-t is nrlainitaincdI with otlrei trnilxrays, andviews -are exchanged witir regard to problemscommnon to railways the world over.

Arising out of certain recomnnllrten da tions madeby- the 0-raet Comnmission arrangements weremade for a delegartion of senior officers, coml-prising the Chief Mfeelianical Engineer, theAssistant Chief Civil Enginen-, the Chief Super-intendent (staff), tire Rosesireli Engineer, an.]the Production Engineer to visit Europe andAmerica during the pnresont i-year for the pur-pose of making investigations into anspects ofrailway wonrkinig falling withnin thepir respetive,

spheres of work. These officers visited thelarger ralway- ;enltres in tireat Britain, theCon tinent of Europe, the United States ofAnmerica, anrd Canada. Threy have mtade coni-prehen sive investigations into subjects such asrvurkslnop Organisation and equipment, civil en-gineering problems, openrating and coumnmercialpractices, etc., and the mass of informationtire)- havo obtained onn these matters should beof considt-rable value to tine administration.

These extracts an-c very interesting to Ils,arnd uwc mighlt weil foilow the lead of SouthAfrica amnd send our senior offieris and mostpr-omising young officers to other States andoverseas. The problem of our railways isa big and changing one, and] I ant confidentthat a visit to Sonth Africa and othercountries by our Commnissionter would bewvorth while.

The MLinister for Mfines: Do you thinklie ought to bring bark a boatload of hlacksto work our railways!

Mr. 1-111l 1 : Let Ile finish what I have tosay.

Mr, Needhain: Is there anything left?Mr. HILL: A visit to South Africa by

our Commissioner would be well -worth whileparticu11lrly if, while overseas, he carefullyinvestigated port and] shipping- pt-Oblems aswvell. .1 nnention this because, to quote SirGeorge Buchanan-

Ports are thne mediumr between sea and ladit-ansport. Oia the p~orts, tlre-ir efficiency and]proper location, the winolo systeml Of transportlargely depends.on i return I would suggest that he beappi)inted (Comimissioner- of Transport aridthat aiu advisory transp~ort council or comn-unlittee Ire formed consisting of thle Corrimis-sionrn'r of Transport as chairmnan, tht- Comn-rnrssnune,- of Railwaysi, thne General 'Manageror Chairnan of the State Harbours Board,file Chairman of the Transport Board andthle Mlanag-er of thle State Steantships. Isug-gest the scrapping of the Fremniitle lar-hrouir Trust anld the Bunbury Harbour Board,the repeal of the Albany Harbour BoardAct and that all State harbours be under theonec auithority as in South Australia or NewSontn Walies- Ii this connection I wouldpjoint out that in the "West Australian"mecentlY appearied the following:-

Taismanian Transport.1Wide Powers for Commissioner.

Hobart, 'Nov. i.I--uder thre provisions ofthe Tran sport Bill which the Prenieir (Mr.Ogilvie) will submit to Parliament inext weekit is; proposed to create a new office of Commis.

2224

[17 NOVEMBER, 1938.] 22

.sioner for Transport. The commiissioner'spowers will be far reaching. He wilt be givenfull c-ontrol over all forms of transport, in-cluding railway, road, river and air servieesand conduct themt under State control.

The Bill follows an investigation extending-over several mionths and is aimed at decreasingthle losses onl railways, which amiount to £500,000*a year. It is probable that in the event of theBill being passed the Government wiill takeover road services ini competition with rail-wvays and considerably curtail railway passen-ger services.

A careful comparison of the report of ourCommtissioner with that of South Africashows that one factor contributing in nosmall waly to thle better financial results inSouth Africa is the fact that their averagetrain load is double that in our State. Thenmember for Kalgoorlic, when referring tothis last year, suggested relaying our lineswith SONb rails, and using heavier locomo-tives, This would cost mnillions, and conse-q~uently is out of the question at present.There is no need for this in the southern-portion of the State. Our lpresent port zoneisystciu is based on only one factor-railwaymileage. The high costs and losses on bothour railways and lports provide proof thatthle system is not working satisfactorily. Tosave a few wiles in railage, wheat from thecountry cast of the Great Southern is hauledever the Darling Ranges, instead of downtile Great Southern. For example, to saveonly 21 miles of railage and 8d. per ton i'sf reight 60,000 tons of wheat was last yearrailed through Wagin westward instead of,down the Great Southern railway.

Mr.~ Withers: That is a saving to thefarmers.

M%1r. HILL: Let me finish, please! Anamount of £E73,000 has been spent on re-grading the railway between Collie andBrunswick, and now an engine will haul 426tons from Wagin to Collie, 500 tons Collieto Brunswick, and 850 tons Brunswick toEunbury, a distance for the 850 tons of only16 miles. TUp to date, nothing has been spenton regrading the Great Southern railwaysouth of Narrogin, and the engine load tables,b'ow the load as follows:-

Miles.Wagiii-Lime Lake . .. 8Lie Lnke-Moojebing .. 17Moojebing-Katanning .. 7lKtanaing-Mfurdong .- 6Mfurdong-Broomehill .. 6Tirootaehill-Peringelltip .. 8Peringellup-Tambellup .. 7Tsnmbellup-Wansbrough ..

Tons.500850426850426671587465

Miles. 'Tons.Wa nsArough -Pootenit u . 7 850Pootenup-Tenterden .. 20 497Tenterden-Carbarup . 15 67-31Carba-rup-Mt. Barker .. 7 481Mdt. Barker-Narrikup .- 11 673Narrikup-Bodmond . a So80Redutond-Albany . .. 20 850

Brunswvick is li miles from Bwihury, andthat is the only section where the 850 tonsfull load is possihie between Wagin andHuabury, whereas the figures quoted showthat 850 tons may be hauiled for a total of50 miles between Wagin and Albany, and afirther S miles for a load of 800tons, and tor 34 miles the load is673 tons. One of my railway friendshas supplied mne with a drawing showingthe grades along the Great Southern.A glance at the drawing reveals that allthat is needed to increase considerably thecarrying capacity of the Great Southernline is to cut down the grades, aggregatingall told only 11 miles. This would be agood work for uneniploved men, as it con-sists of about 100 lpor cent, labour. Bythis means a grade of one in eighty couldbe secured all the way to Albany. Itwould wean that an P.S. engine could haula. load of 850 tons for no less than 77 mileson the Great Southern railwvay, and that byusing ibqnkiag engines on the Other 70miles trains of 850 tons could be hauled allthe way froni Wagin to Albany. Thenthere is the question of speed. In the easeof a goods train from Wagin to Albany,straight and easy curves permit a maxi-mum speed of 30 miles;, nine curves permita maximum speed of 2-7 miles; and fivecurves permit a maximum speed of 20 miles.Between Wagin and Bowelling, straightand easy curves permit a maximum speedof 25 miles, and nine curves a maximumspeed of 19 miles. I have shown one wayin which more economical working of ourrailways may be achieved. Some altera-tions would have to be made, but they are.necessary for the purpose of decreasing,costs and cutting down the railway deficit.Further economics might be effected by theadjustment of the Zones on an economicalbasis. Other countries have railway chargeson a z .one basis instead of upon a mileagebasis, and we can follow their example.

Now I would like to say a little aboutthe train service on the Grreat Southernline. r suggest sending wheat for ship-ment the shortest way, and not the longest.

22-95

222G [ASSEMBLY.]

The shortest route in the ease of the Al-bany zone is via the Doninybrook-Katan-fling line; but owing to the low carryingcapacity of' that line, super is hauled overthe BrI'rs ic-Col lie-Wagiii line. Then'emalbei for Pingelly (Mvr. Seward) refer-red to thle rather poor service on the GreatSoutthern, line. That service has to a cer-tain Lxtent deteriorated. A.Z. coaches havebeen replaced by A.Q. When that changewas made, the members for Williams-Nar-rogin (Mr. Donev) 811d Pingelly (Mfr.Seward) and I wvaited on the Minister forRailways and asked that the A.Z. coachesbe restored. That night the Chief TrafficMN'anager wenct to see who patronised theA.Q. coaches. He found that the passen-gers consisted of the member for Pinmwellvlthe member for Willianis-Narrogin, aiicmnyself. is it not deplorable that our rail-ways are so little used? Tistead of cut-ting (down lie service becauise of the poorpai re 118 the ri-aIwa vs receive, the de-partmient should provide a service whichwould encourage larger patronage. At thepresent time the fast train takes .16 hoursto go from AlbanY to Perth. The ordinary*train takes about 18 hours. -Motor earshave (lone the di stanlce inl fromt four hoursto seven hours. They canl do it comfort-ably in .51/ hours. The journey has beendone, i)' pusli hike in 12 hours 28 mein utes.The trouble is that the distance by roadfrom Albanyv to Perth is 254 miiles, while thledistance liy rail is 241. The railway chargeis onl the mileage basis. While passengrersare conveyed a radial distance of only252 miles, they have to pay for .341 miles.The member for Pingelly 'has already re-ferredi to tile need for improved passengerservice. Tf the Client Southern servicecould be speeded up and provided atcheaper fares, it would be more used. Assoon as ceap excursion fares are cut out,the passenger patronagev on the (;realSouthern line becomes less. it will he aprofitable proposition for the Commissionerof Railways to speed uip the trains and ye-duec the fares.

MR. MARSHALL (MNurchison) [8.35]:it seemls that we have the wrong man forConmmiissioner of Railwavys absolutely ,v Thisis the man the Nfurchison is looking, for! ifthere is anlything the Mfurehlison people dle-sire most of. all, it is the speeding uip of therailwaiY trains. Had the previous speaiker

liven IIIaturer consideration to thle figureshie used, he would have realised that thebasic fact which permits South Africa-acountry I know, having lived there for sometime-to make such a huge success of itsrailway system as compared with WesternAustralia, is not that it has a population of2,006,000 whites and 6,000,000 colouryedpeople, but that its railway system operatesover only a fraction of the area and muileagethat Obtain in Western Australia, which has.a population of only 451,000. The lioni.member desires anl infant to run before ithas begun to crawl. How could we carrythe same costs as a population so wealthyand so numer-ous as that of South Africa?

Mr. Hill: Who suggested ill

Mr. -MARSHALL: The whole position isobvious. I would not be so audacious as toaccuse our Commissioner of Railways of notbeing Conversant with conditions ill othercountries where similar railway' systeiiis,hlaving regard to the oamures. are in existence.I respectfully suggest that the departmentalofficers of thle Western Australian railwaysystemk are fully aware of wshat is taking-place in other countries. Our- departmentalstaff, however, is handicapped by the factthat w-len it i-caches out to give effect to tilereforms we all desire, the cry is, "There is110 lioney."' I have not the sliglit.st doutihthat our engineers are (luite capale ofgivin"g uts air-conditioned rolling stock. Weit-ant it. No one si-ants it more than thosewho travel 715 miles onl one of the hottestlines in Australia. that to the Murchisongoldfields. Those arc the people wfio iiver]consideration in the fom of air-conditionedrailwvay carriages. They are the people, too,w~ho pay, the highbest railway freights andfares. and( al-c responsible for the small de-ficit our system shows. They' pay' theniaxinia for aill services rendered. They liveand labour- under the most oppressive clima-tie conditions in Western A ustralia. I savthese things with all due reopeet to peoplewho live inl other ports of this State. WhenWestern Australia has a population of2.000.000 whites, anid in addition numbersof coloured people as intelligent and amibi-lions and efficient, and] with the saime sta nd-arld of living, as thpencooured people ofSouth Africa, our Railwan-s Comissionerill ind it much easier to zive effect to the

wvisbes of the niember for Albany thanminVr present conditions and( eireiista nees.We must hear in mind the facet that Western

[17 NovE3Inva, 1938.] 22

Australia has more miles of railway perhead of l)opulation than has any othercountry in the world. Our population totals4.51,000. Ia the circumstances, and havingregard to the monetary system under whichwe live, our People have done a pretty goodJob. Nevertheless I ust endorse the re-marks of the member for Kalgoorlie (Mr.Styants). The condition of the tractor see-tion of our railway system is deplorable. Imake mention of this because of wh'Iat one,experiences When one takes the train runt-ning into the Murehison district. That dis-trict has eight months of hot weather, andfour months of particularly wvarm weather.Men arc working, in the cabins of loconio-tires under such conditions. The enginestirc in a bad state otf repair, and so the mnare not much enicouraged to give efficiency.Indeed, I marvel that the men stick to theirjobs as well as they do, in such cireum-stances. Anyone wvith mechanical know-ledge of engines knows there is a loss ofefficiency when the big ends of brass bear-ings; and so forth. commence to knock, de-reloping a little more friction than is essen-tial to the work for which the engine is de-signed. It is heart-breaking to try to ob-tain efficiency from an engine in such Astate. In that regard the Commissioner isnot considerate to his men, for the train isusually loaded up- I compliment the staffon their efforts to give service to the peopleof the State in snch conditions. I cannotblame the Commissioner, because I feel con-fident that it money was Provided he wouldeffect the necessary improvements. How-ever. T cannot lot the opportunity pass with-ont making these remarks.

I ask the member for Pingelly ('Mr.Seward), if he thinks the Albany-Perthtrain requires speeding- up, what would behis remarks if he had to travel between'Wiliina, and Perth?

Mr. Watts; The honi. member's remarkswould be exactly the same, only louder.

MNr. MIARSHALL: I agree with the ineini-her for Enatanning. I do not slpeak dispa rag-igly' of the member for Pingclly, whose lob

is to represent his constituents here;. hutmuany people live under far more adversecoinditions in res~pect of transport than do0the people between Albany and Perth.

M[r. Seward: T referred to the trans. linealtso, and I particularl ' asked for the speed-ing-tip of the Diesel cars on branch lines.

31r', MIARSHALLa: 1 thoughlt thle bon.miember spoke only' of steami-d riveni locomo-fives, lic mentioned that passenger trainshad to stop at every little siding. That is alsothe eaise betiveen WVluna and Perth. I wentto tile trouble 011CCe of aIscertainling; the aunt11-her of st0ops between Perth and \Niluna, andI made the total 81.

Mr. Seward: It I had referred to thatmatter, I might have been told to mind myown business.

Mr. MVARSHALL: The technical miechan-ism essential to the safety of the train hasto be considered. Frequecntly passengerscomplain of a stop at an unattended sidingfor a period too long to be agreeable tothem; but there is the saife-working mechan-ism, which must receive close attention be-cause the train cannot start until there isassnrance of its travelling over the next see-tion with safety. People without the neces-sary mechianicalI knowledge are apt to corn-plain bitterly of stops. There would be agreat deal more to complain about if a col-lision resulted on the next section throughlack of attention to safe-working mechanism.The ordinary person knows nothing of themany technicalities associated with the run-ning of trains, but is too ready to criticise.without appreciating the cause of stops.There is nothing in that.

I tell the member for Canning he is outof step) omi the subject of transport. Canbie name one big city in the world that hasentirely discarded tramns and trains as ameans of transport and installed buses?

M~r. Cross: I never said there was.Mr. MARSHALL: The lion. member's

inference was along that line, aiid frequentlyhe has told uts that our- trains and trains arcobsolete.

Mr. Cross: They have been scrapped inLondon and Manchester.

Mr. MARSHALL: Nothing of the kind.The member for Albany (Mr. Hill) quotedextensively front all countries, and he showedthat in most instances they are prohibited.while in others they are under control.

Afr. Cross: The report he quoted was twoYears old.

Mr. 'MARSHALL: We need only) go toSouth Australia to inid that buses are pro-hibited from plying, though I admit thereare a few that run to Semaphore and] back.'What is really wrong with our Governmentmethod of transport is that the systemn isobsolete. It our trains and trains were

2227

[ASSEMBLY.]

mnodern they would move passenger trafficmuch more rapidly than any other methodever thought of by the member for Canning.That our trains are far from losing passen-ger traffic is shown by the number of peoplewho continue to patronise them, and( one hasonly to watch the exodus from the PerthRailway Station inl the early hours of themorning to prove that what I am saying iscorrect. Imagine that number of peoplebeing transported by buses. Buses have beengiven tot) many concessions jil the mnetro-politan area, and at the expense of the tspayers also.

Mr. Cross You have never heard mne ad-vlocate buses.

Mri. MARSHALL: The hon. membershould go somewhere else where buses arein coimpetitioin with trains and trains, andnote the conditions tinder which the peoplethere have to travel.

Mir, Cross: I know all about it.Mr. MARSHALL: If the hon. member

know~s, hieshould tell the House.Mr. Cross: I am entitled to tell you what

is wanted at South Perth.Mr. M-NARSHALL: South Perth wanted a

new ferry and got it; it wanted a tram andgot it; it wanted buses and got them; 110wthat suburb wants trolley buses.

Mr. Cross: We will get them, too.Mr. ]MARSHALL: I know something

about buses, because it is amy misfortune tohave to travel in one. It takes 4.5 minutesoccasionally to do six miles, and I amcharged 8d. for the trip. I can get onl atram, slowv and aill as it is, at the TownHall, and( travel seven miles in a shorterspace of lime and pay 5d. The bon. memi-her imiagines that buses travel at a greaterspeed! because they do not stop so frequentlyas the trams. But let him look at the busesthat travel onl the south side of the river,buses that are without conduetresses. Therethe driver has to collect the fares himself,and] that sometimes takes five minutes whilean old lad 'y will dip into her purse and searchfor her fare.

Mis. Cardell-Oliver: What about the oldmen?

Mr, MARSHALL: I suppose they wouildwaste some time, but the women are thegreatest offenders in this respect. If onegoes to outback places where motors are incompe-tition with the -railways he will. findthat at tine time it cost £7 10s. to carry goodsovvr a distmiwe of 142 miles. People neVerl

complained, but let the Commissioner forRailways charge a similar rate for 142 milesand then listen to the howl. But revertingto imotor buses. Have we not all experienedtheir evil smnells from the exhaust and theinterior filled with cig-arette smoke?

Mr. Cross: There is nothing like that inthe trolley buses.

Mr. 'MARSHALL:) In the buses we findpeople hanging on everywhere, and yet noone complains. Let the trains be over-crowded, and then note what happens.Really' thle members of the public are notfair. \Ve find people stepping out of a businto the rainl to make way for someoneabout to alight, then returning to it withoututtering~ a1 complaint; but when it etimnes tothe overcrowding of trais thle newspapers,are filled with hostile criticism of the Gov-emninent methods of transport. Yet thetrains ;ind trains belong to the people them-selves

Mr. Cross: They should be improved.Mr. MARSHALL: I agree, but where is

the money to conic from?9 It is all a ques-tion of funds, and] that is never discussed inthis Chamber. I should like to ventilate asmall grievance reg' arding the excursion trainwhich was sent from Wiluna to Perth inDecember last. That train was allowed toleave Wiluna seven or eight days before theschools broke uip for the Christmas holidays.That caused great incouvenienee to manypeople. It was too late to rectify the trouble,and so the train had to leave earlier than itshould have done. rhis vraea, I hone- thllCommissioner will ascertain the date onwhich the schools; will close for thle holidays,so that the parents who desire to accomipanythe childre n to the coast mnay be able to dos-o, after the break-up. I urge the depart-inent also to keep the trains, supplied withclean water for the trip, because it is a longand tedious journey. One can imagine whatthe trip is like when T say that two trainsmar lie leaving the Perth station at the sametime, one for Adelaide and the other forWiluna, and the train bound for Adelaidewill reach its destination before the otherarriv-es at Wiluna. That will give an ideai ofthle conditions under -which people have totravel in parts of this State.

Mr. Seward: There is no reason why thatshould be so.

Mfr. M1ARSHALL: It is due to the facetthat the department cannot afford to improve

asystem which is already showing a loss.

[17 NOVEMIBER, 1938.] 2229

The department is doing its best having re-gard to thle financial side. That is the reasonwhy people cannot get thle service to whichthey arc entitled. In any case, there is noreason why the closest attention should notbe paid to cleanliness and the provision ofgood water Supplies Onl the trains. Ourrolling stock is obsolete, and I hope the timeis not far distant when it wvill be possible topurchase up-to-date equipment, so that wenisy be able to compete with privately-onivedIbuses. I do not k-now of any more objection-able form of transport titan buses. In thewinter time they arc cold and draughty andbadly, ventilated. One is always lialde to(-atch a cold in one of those vehicles, whilein summer there is always the smell of oil.I certainly would never use bus transport ifT could avail my' self of any other.

MNr. Cross: Even trolley buses?

Mr. MARSHALL: Yes, they are an ex-cellent form of transport. The people ofSouth Perth lia'e tire State ferry ser-vice niwell a. a privately owned ferry. Since thenthey% have been givenI :1 lus service. SomieP ortions of the State have 110 trlantsportfacilities at all, and it is rime the Govern-mnt directed its attention to those districts.Vron the point of economy. areviewv of oiurtranway syvstem should be made with theidea of utilising the present rollinrg stock oilcriita in roads and converting other lines tothle t rolley bus systN'em. We would thenavoid the risk of over-capita lising theundertaking. I ha ye no doubt the officerswho muanage the tnrmway sy stemn have allthis in inind. The I rainwav and railwayecip1 lo 'vees are always willing to olblige, and1 have no fault to find with thein. They tirdoinr- a good job tildeIr adverse conditions,an ill n.s, i include the Commissioner andhis MFa f. If I find they are nleglecting their(l1lt v iil cienti vise themi quicky- enough,I)t itll) to the presci t I am grateful for what

Fhave beeni able to ',,t front thenm. TIheI rou runningl to thel 'Murichison has beenspeedled ill and I aug thankful for that. I.hope the staff will , ive consideration to thetrains port of womnen a nfl] childrieli duri ng theconinm- uninier, and make travel easier for

them than, it has beegn in thle past.

MR. WILLMOTT (Sussex) [9.3] : I wishto, in ter to thle I i-ghni arrangements onl theBusselton jetty. As they ale to-dayl theyconstitute a clajit ur bmoth for- the lumperswho w~ork there and fog- the ships that come

bitl) thle port. Dluring thle )past tewv gmonths48 boats ,grrived at Busselton and of these22 worked at n ight. A considerable amiount

gf iit work is going onl all the year round.'i f thle Busselton Muiniecipal Council werea pproaehed sonme ariranlgemnt might begmadle between it and the Comgmissioner ofllail wayvs to extend thle electric: lighting tothe end of the jetty. Alr-eady% the jetty islighted by the council for a fifth or sixth ofthe way. nt the remaining portion is with-out any- lighting facilities. During the past12 mlon~ths 10,571 loads of timber were ex-p orted from thle port to tile Eastern States,a nf 8,200 loads wvenmt ovel-seas, makizlg i

total of 18,571 loads. 'This timber wasvalued ait £112,626. Such a volumec of tradeentities Busseltori to the( facility I havec men-tioned . A considerabile amonot of money isalso disbursed in wagres. Oni eccounC ofinterstate trade the bra i ers received (iri ngthe period under review £4,785, and oin at-co(unit of overseas ship ping they received£2007, Inaking a total of £:6,852. .1 hopethe Minister will do his utmnost to hlave anarmrngemlent made between the liusseltonMunicipal Council and the RAilway Depart-menit for the lighting of the jetty. Iwill I ot talk about the railways to-night,although I ami knoeked about in the traitnsevery time I go home.

MR. WATTS (Kittanning) [9.6]; It isa matter for regret that when a membersuggests imnprovemenlts to the railway sys-tein, and his ideas are not iln conformitywith those of the department, the Minis-ter should regard the remnarks as criticism~of a destructive type. That was the atti--tilde lie took up, or I gathered it was hisattitude, when the appointment of a RoyalCommission was suggested last year by themember for Pingelly. It is a mistakenattitude. Any observations the memiberfor Pingelly or I would make concerningthle railways would be made with a viewto hav~ing theni more used than the3- areto-day. No member forgets that a con-sideraible amount of money has been in-vested in the railways over a lon~g periodof years. Whatever we may think concern-ing, the manner in which the money wasspent, we know that the liability exists,and that we have to nmeet thle annual inter-est bill as it falls due. If members atany time. make suggestions to encouragethe public to put the railways to greateruse. I hope the Minister and the depart-

22301 [ASSEMBLY.)

meat will give them every consideration.We (10 not want to pose as carping critics.Our intention is to assist the Minister andthle department, to point out defects thatoccur in our own neighbourhood, and bringforward perhaps the ideas of our constitut-ents tonceerning directions in which im-proveinents could be effected.

We have heard[ a great deal dluring thepaist few days about increased traffic andincreased earnings that have eventuatedsince the trolley buses came into opera-tion. We are also told about the increasedearnings l ine to the running of the newDiesel electric cars. These earnings haveonly conmc because the public have foundsomnethting which is better than the servicethat preceded it. Instead of rushing wvildlyoff in a motor ear, because it provides them

wit a oreeilen t and speedy means oftransp~ort, they have recognised the effortsof the department at certain times andin certain lplaces to improve the conditions.People are noxious to use the railways. Isubmit that these two examples are thestrong-est indication that the Railway De-partmnent should consider what other meanscan be adopted to bring the people backinto thle fold.

In years gone by the railways were inconstant use. We then reached the age ofmotor cars. At first they were not verypopular, bitt as they became more efficientpeople were only too g]ld to avail them-selves of the opportunity to go wvhere theywished by car rather than by rail. So itwas that tile railauys began to stfer moreand mnore. On the Great Southern line thedifference between the ltme taken by theord inar v steam train at nighlt a ad theDiesel car between Kittann ing and Perth isnot more than two hours. Many' peoplewould prefer to travel by Diesel ear thanby, motor car, even though at saving of onlytwo hours has been effected. I do not wantthe Miniister to tin k we are coin ila infingabout the running time or the stoppinglime of thle Great Southern trainas, ally morethanl of other trains in the State. I do notregard tile flreat Southern trains as theworst trains in the State by any means.Probably the mnember for lfurchison hasa lbetter case to lput iup than I have in thatresp~ect. Some effort should be made toimprove the running still further. Thepublic is possessed of a aman for speed.Some p~eople, eould they don so, would Jprefer

to travel 150 miles anl hour by aeroplanethan 60 miles an hour by any other means.

If we want to get support for our Statetransport system, we must give the peoplethe very best wve can. It is not a questionof greatly increased expenditure. I doubtwhether much additional expenditure wouldbe necessary in many instances. Let miequote the train that leaves Katanniug. Itleavyes at 12.-D a.nl. and arrives in Perth attwvo minutes to 11 inl the morning, approxi-mnately 10 hours 355 minutes being requiredto travel 225 miles. This works out atabout 21 miles anl hour. Usually the t ra inarrives on time at Kata nning, but generallyleaves a quarter of an hour late. [t isscheduled to remain at the station for re-freshmnent and station purposes for a de-finite period, but is usually a quarter of anhour late in leaving. It proceeds at aspeed of 45 miles an hour after surmounit-ing the small rise Just outside the town,and arrives on time at Wagin. Probablyit leaves Wagin a quarter of an hour late,and this business is repeated at other sta-tions. This has been my experience formany years. No improvement has beeneffected in the running time or in thlerunning conditions. I suggest that if alittle more care wvas exercised by the (depart-moent and tile officers at the various stations,without any further expense Or Any loss Ofpublic safety, but with a great deal of bone-fit to the public, munch time could lie saved.

The member for Pingelly referred to nonl-stops between Speer's Brook anad Midland.juncltionl. oil a Fr-iday morning, fromIKatain ing to Perth, tilere is a saving inJulliling timle of approximately 40 minutes,

but most of that savinlg is effected betweenlSpencer's Brook and Perthl. I see atO reasonwhy tllat salvig shlould not lie effectedthroughout the week. I had a ride inl atrolley bus this mnorning as fat as Swan-bour1 ne. T can, readily, understand wilypeople are more inelinedi to use" that formof transport thdin either the trains or subury-ban trains. A trolley bus gives one, a rideat a reasonable speed and in reasonablecomfort. That is all the public are askingfor so far as they can get it under a Coy-ernment transport system. It is no use todeclare that our railways are the best in theworld. That is not so. They call he im-proved, and should he improved.

Tllen thlere is the question of conchaccommodation o11 eonntry trainis, and again

[17 NoVF-3IBER, 1938.] 23

I illustrate the Great Southern line. Thecoaches are exceedingly uncomfortable,especially when one is travelling second-c.lass. The second-class passengers providea considerable portion of the passengerrevenue, and they are deservingy of moreconsideration. I was seeing a friend off fromthe Katanning station on Sunday evening.He was travelling second-class. I canimagine his discomfort in the 11-hours runto Perth. Things have remained unalteredfor the past 25 years, whilst every othertype of transport has improved. Very littleindeed has been done to improve the methodsadopted in the railway ser-vice. No -wondercountry people travel as little by train aspossible. If the department would giveattention to the comfort of passengers, Ibelieve an important financial improvementcould be effected. A coach containing 20passengers costs as much to run as does onethat has its full complement. The same prin-ciple applies to a whole train. The addi-tional passengers that could perhaps be in-duced to travel inight tuni the loss made bythe system into a small profit. I commendthe suggestions made by members, andassure the Minister they are made to assistin the better management of the railwaysand encourage people to use a national assetrather than other means of transport. Ia.gYee with the suggestion advanced by themember for Albany (Mr. Hill) with regardto the Great Southern railway. There arcvery few sections of the line over wrhichi itran he said that only small loaids c;anhe hauled. I went into the figures thememnber for Albany has taken out, and itwould seem that ant aggregate distaince ofbetween 11 and 12 miles only would requireto be regraded to allow double loads to behauled. It seems definitely wrong to runtwo trains over a length of 100 or moremiles when, with the re-gradingm of a smallportion of the line, one train could do thetrip. Other sections of the railways havebeen regraded within the last few years withnto mlore justification. Even if the gradesthat exist near Wagin and Katanning weredealt with, a considerable increase in traffichr mecans of one train instead of two wouldbe possible. As it is, the extra haulage isimpracticaable because of the grades on a.few sections only, thereby necessitatingsmnaller loads being. railed, over the entiresection. If the r-egrading were done andthe loads were hauled by one train only, a

considerable reduction in overhead expensqeswould be effected and the slower transportnow occasioned because of the grades wouldbe avoided. I hope the Minister will takethis matter- into consideration because therequest. is not unreason able.

MRS. CARDELL - OLIVER (Subiaco)[9.17]. 1 wish to remind the 'Minister thatlast year hie promised to recondition somneof the trams, but so far I have not noticedthat any- have been improved. PerhapsscoIn have been reconditioned, but they. arecertainl 'y not seen on the Subinco route.

Hon. P. D. Ferguson: They would 1)0 re-served for the Mt. Lawley route.

Mrs, CA RDE.L-OLIVER: At any rate,the trains running to Subiaco seem to be inthe same condition as they were last year.Elderly people and even younger womenwith babies find it almost impossible to,board the trains because the steps are sohigh. I cannot imagine why such high stepswere ever installed, but p)ossibly- people weremore agile in the days when the tramns wvereconstructed.

The M1inister for Railways: They were.

Mrs. CARDELL-OLIVER: Another sug-gestion is that a few of the seats at thedriver's end he reserved for women withbabies. When they board the trains withtheir perambulators, they do so at the driver'send. They are probably handicapped notonly with at child in arms but another thathas to he helped on. Very often when theyenter a tram the y find little accommodationavailable. While the people may have beenmore agile in Years gone by, it is also p)os-sible that greater chivalry was displayedthan by patrons of the system. ILL those'days, wornen may hare been able to findseats quite readily, whereas in many' in-stances to-day it is most difficult. I suggest

that at least four seats, two oil each side, bereserved for women with babies. Further, Isuggest that lights should be displayed onthle front of trains. If that were d]one . Iam sure fewer accidents would happen. Iunderstand the Minister now drive.; a motor-ear himself, and I am sure he wviii agree,with other motorists, that it would be in theirinterests if additional lights were attachedto tram cars. Motor-ists would then knowthat the oncoming vehicle was a trainear andnot a motor cycle. Lastly, I desire to drawthe Minister's attention to the fact that thetransport facilities to -Jolimtont are costly

q931

[ASSEM!%BLY.]

and ;nasa a kfactur 'v. The -itburb is- not largebut is increasing. A ehleaj.er ser-vice is re-qluired between Jolimiont and Perth becausethle people cannot afford to pay thle rulingbus fares. A charge of 1(1, over the sectionbetween Jolirft and Subiaco should belevied. Thle distance is too long to forcepeople to walk, and if thor' have to take thebus, they have to pay 3d. to travel over amile or a mnile and a half. I trust the Minis-ter wvill see his way clear to agree to thereformis I have suggested.

MR. WELSH (Pilbara) [9.20]: 1 shallnot ofler any criticism of the railways, butfor the last two or three years I have re-'gues~ted the Mfinister to grrant at Concessionto the -angers andl fettlers on the PortIledland-21airle Bar railway to enable thlen1vi to travel 1wv tile State dip, uch alonglthe lines of thle concession accorded min-hers of Parliament. The maen work tinderclimiatic conditions that canl hardli' 1)realised by people living in the southl.Owingt tn the dianpe from Perth, they,cannot enjoy annual leav-e. because thleholiday period would Ibe taken up1 in travel-lino- time. They~ arc allowed to aceunnulat.-their leave for three yearsL. The applicationI mankv on their behialf is amply justifiedl.If they were to comne dowii by sea, the costwould he about £12 or £.14. They' cannilottake Advantage of the fre e railway pass, ascan their fellow railway workers in thesouthern parts of the State. I urge the Mmi-ister to granit tickets to the gangers andfettlers for use onl the State boats. I hopeLtn this occasion the -Minister will agree toji v rtitestt Wh'en the Minister for WorksWas in al-he Bar ste time ago,, he dis-en srl this question with the ina and saidhev was under the impression that the conl-eess~or. -Ilbraee(l all mlen eon14 'loyel by tinl'Pubhlic Works Depa rtnment. The conicessionlI tsk, is onl behalf of eiwht or nine gangersand fcttlr'rs onl tine, Port }{edlanrl railway'. Itru-r thle Mlinister will favourably viewv m1Yrequiest.

MR. TONKIN (North- East Freman tie)[.9.2:11 : I wish to refer to two matters inconinection with the electricity supply. Thisyear the department saw fit to reduce therost of electric currenti in certain districts,hut( has denlied a sectionl of thle people therigh t to palrtic'ipate' in thle reduction by re-fusinsr to remove tine mninimum charge.'Vhose who would bentefit mostly by the re-

ducrtion cannot secure that advantage be-cause they do not use sufficient current tobring their consumption below the limit re-quired to secure the concession. I refer toold ag-e pensioners who have to retire earlyto bed and therefore do not use thle quantityof current that those with large families do,and also to those who receive assistancethroughi the Child Welfare Departnment or thleEm pclo mient Department. Those in the lattersect ion are forced through economic cireum-sranceL s to save their consumption of currentas much as possible. When suchpeople are economical in their useof current, they cannot secure the bene-fit of the reduced price, hut have topay thle minimum charge. The departmentshould remove the minimium charge an~dmake people pay at the ruling rate for thecurrent they use. If a person uses one unitof electricity per week, he should be re-quired to pay for one unit only. Otherwisethose who are able to meet their bills with-alit hardship and consequently are not care-ful in the use of current, secure their sup-plies, at reduced prices, whereas the personwho utses one unit per week cannot effect anysaving at all, The reform I suggest wouldnot cost the department very much, but itwould greatly assist many who have to serapeto make ends meet. I appeal to the Minister,as I have done previously, to reconsider thismatter and remnove the minimum charge. An-other mna ter refers to the supply of currentto local authorities. From time to time thoseoperating iii my electorate have requested areduction in the price of current in orderthat they' may instal additional street lights.Their intention is not to reduce the amountpayabIle annually for current, and thelocal authorities are prepared to takecurrent lip to the fll] amount they pay atpresent. If the department agreed to a re-duction iii the cost of current to them, itwould he possible to instal additional streetligzhts, whichi would he of considerable bene-Eit to the public. T ag-ree with that conten-tinn. Some of the streets are inadequatelylighted, and thle, position would be greatlyinproved if atiditional lights were installed.The local authorities cannot face the in-creased expenditure that would be involvedi) lproviding additional lights at the presentrates, for current. [ again appeal to theM, tish'a to consider that mnatter, whichis implortailt from thle standpoint of Cot-

[17 NovExRnan, 1938.] 23

tesloc, M-osinan Park and Peppermint Grove,but no relief can be afforded the people un-less a reduction of the price of current isgranted. I congratulate the Electricity De-partment on the excellent results achievedduring the year. The Commjssjoner's annualreport discloses that the department has paidits way , reduced its production costs and in-c.reased its earning capacity. The desire isnot to make huge profits, but rather to payworking expenses. I trust that whereverfeasiIble as ninny benefits as possible may beaccorded the people. One other matter ha-,been brought under niy notice and that isthat during the year t wo consumers in theFremantle district, who previously took bulksu-rpplies from the Government, have trans-fe'rred their business to the Fremantle Muni-eipanl and Electric Lighting Board. Thehoard purchaises its current from the Gov-ernment. There must be something radicallywr-on-IT hope there is a reasonable expla-nation, but so far I have not been able toascertain what it is-when a consumer canease buying direct and decide to buy in-directly through a second body. The prim-ary consideration would be the cost of cur-rent and if it is possible for a consumer to,secure current more cheaply by buying in-directly, there is something obviously wrong.It appears that two large consumers havema~de this change in the past year. If it ishecause they can get current cheaper fromFremantle. then the charge made by theElectricity Department should be revised.If it is found that the department is charg-ing too muneh for its current, then the chargeshould be reviewed. It should not be pos-sible for consumers to get electric currentcheaper from ai retailer than from the Gov-eniment supplying as a wholesaler.

THE MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS(Hon. F. C. L. Smith-lrownhill-Ivanhoe-in reply) [0.31] : I thank members for theway in which the'yr hare received these Esti-mnates. The member for Canning sugg-estedplacing- each of the various depar-tmentstinder a manager. T think the member forAlbany effectively disposed of that suig-glestion when he pointed out that in LSouthAfrica, with its very extensive operations,one per~son is in control. Tt must he bornein mind thant the, railway department ofSouth Africa controls not only rail frans-port. hut also i'oad and air transport. Verylarge concerns aan often be effectively% m1an-

ag-ed, with efficient org-anisation, by one per-son. However, the time has not yet arrivedin this State 'when a change in the existingform of management is desirable. Hon.members will not agree -with the statement ofthe member for Canning that the metro-politan people have to pay extra in order tomake u~p for cou ntry losses. Everyone krnowsthat the consumer pays for railway services.Country people use the railways farmnore than do the people in the metropiolitana rea. Countr 'y people must have goodssent to them from the metropolitan areatand the 'y must send their goods to the mietro-politani area. That is the Minl source Ofrevenue of the department. The memiberfor Canning also said that tramns wereout of dlate. That is a mere generalisation,and we cannot generalise upon the questionwhether Our tramns are out of date or not.Thet mnember for Pingelly (Mr. Seward) alsoreferred to the question of trains. He men-tioned the report of an interview withMrBell, who I think is associated with thoMelbourne tramnways.

Mr. Patrick: He is the Chairman of theTrainways Trust in Melbourne.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Iknow the 'Melbourne Tramways Trust de-cided in favour of tramns some years ago asthe result of an investigation and report4made hr Mr. Cameron. -who was then theGeneral Manager. The trust decided, after aninvestigation into the matter in various lpaLtS3of the world, that trains would he the bestform of transport for Melbourne and itssuburbs. The trust spent a huge sumi ofmoney in electrifying the system and clhang-ing over from the c~able system. A ver fineiip-to-date tram, built low to the ground soas to prevent noise, has been put into ser-vice. It is quite as comfortable as earomunibus or trolley bus in -which I havetravelled. T ventulre to say that Mr. Bellsupported Mr. Cameron in his recoin-juendatiuns. I would be surprised to leannthat the reference in thie report mentionedby the member for Ping-elly was not to theeffect thatt trolley buses were confined tothe o:,I cr suburban areas. I understanrd the.proposal to electrify. the Bourke-street trainshans been under consideration for some time,T also think that while 'Mr. Bell was away'hie sent a9 cablegrami requesting the trustto hold lip that particular work until his re-turn. I remember readintr the eable--razn inthe Press. Since then T have had the urn-

223.3

2',34 [ASSEMBLY.]

pression conveyed to 'no, through thle Pre',ithat he is still in favour of tramn for %[-bourne. That applies to many other citiesin the world. Toronto, in Canada, has re-organised its tramoway service. Much de-pends upon local conditions.

Ron. C. C. Lathamn: The loss of capitalthrough scrapping the trains would beenormfous.

The MINISTERFOR RAILWAYS: Yes.[a some of the bigger cities throughout theworld, decisions have been made, as a resultof expert advice, to retain tramway servi .ces.Trams have been deenied to be best suitedfor the particular needs of those cities. Ofcourse, opinions differ. In other cities,trains may not be suitable because thestreets arc narrow or winding-. Because ofsome other peculiar local conditions, trolleyb)uses will best serve the transport needs ofthe people. The question of peak loadingmay be a consideration. In England con-sideration is being given to the question ofendeavouring to stagger the loading by in-dlucing factories to alter their starting andclosing times.

The member for Kalgoorlie (Mr. Styants)suggested at olie-elass systemn throughout.He drew attention to thie fact that theraiIlvays carried more second-class thanfirst-class passengers. That condition hasalways Jprevailed. The hion. member alsoreferred to thle fact that the KaigoorlieexpreCss included anl equal number of first-and( second-class carriages. One has to takeinto consideration that tile seconid-class car-riages contain four berths, while the first-dcass carriages contain only two.

Mr. Styants: I referred to revenue. Weget three times as much revenue fromsecond-class passengers.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Theonly State that I k-now of where a proposalis on foot to do away with first-class ac-eornmodation is Tasmania, and the propo-sal there is then to increase the second-classLares by 10 per cent, I do not think thatdesirable. Many people are prepared topay a first-class fare for what might bereg-arded as a little better accommodation.Because they pay the extra money the de-partment is able to give a better serviceto second-class passengers at a lower ratethan would otherwise he the case. I doout know whether the proposal is to becar-ied into effect throughout that Stateor whether it is to be confined to the

metropolitan services. Nevertheless, theintention is to increase the second-classfares by 10 per cent.

lion. C. UI. Latham: Out of every 1,000people wvho travel on the railways in Eng-land, 999 travel third-class.

Th le MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS; SoI am told. The third-class accommodationis considered to be fairly reasonable. Themember for Kalgoorlie again brought upthe question of the condition of our loco-motives. The department is well awarethat our locomotives are not up to thestandard wre desire. Ani attempt has beenmade to improve the position by construct-ing some new locomotives. The hon. mem-ber also complained about the rolling stock.When this Government assumned office inApril, 1933, the department was faced withthe fact that its rolling, stock had been ic-glected. The Government had to undertakea hunge expenditure for belated repairs tobring- its asset up to date. The Govern-ment could not undertake to construct newrolling stock and locomotives. Instead, itrestored in some measure the value of itsasset. The fact that provision is not madeonl the Estimiates this year for the annualamount of £C100,000 for belated repairs indi-cates that those repairs have been completed.The department would like to provide air-conditioned trains such are are in use inVictoria:; but that State must be very- pros-perous to be in a position to purchase atrain at the cost of nearly a quarter of anull ion pounds to run a distance of only200 miles. Our State could not afford todo that.

Mr. Styaiits: The air-conditioning didnot cost a quarter of a muilliou pounds.

Thle MINISTER FOLR RAILWAYS: The"Spirit of Progress" cost nearly a quar-ter of a million pounds.

Mr. St 'yants: The air-conditioning facili-ties did not cost that sum.

Thle 'MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No.Thev cost about £2,000 per carriage. Thelion, member mentioned air-conditionedcoaches, with all-steel bodies. He pointedout that on the Continent it had beenproved in a railway smash that the mor-talityv was lower when these all-steel car-riages were in use. We could not afford,however, to consider a proposal to instala train like the ''Spirit of Progress.'

[17 NOVEMBER, .193sj.23

xMr. Styants: The Victorianl Railway De-partment has recovered much of its pas-senger traffic from the motorists.

The M1INISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Onetrain would not recover very many passen-gers. The hon. member referred to a lostsuitcase. tie drew attention to the factthat if a person rails a suitcase, he mustaccept all risks and put up with the eon-sequences- if it is lost. By pay1ing- a littleextra the vase could have beem idisplated at(he Coimmissioner's risk, and it would havebeen covered against loss, It is not possiblefor us to break down the( regulations allto-g-ether; we must conform to theml or notat all,

Hon. C. G. Lathami: Why not carry allg-oods at the Commissioner's risk"?

The MIN2-ISTER FOR RAUAWA NYS:They canl be so carried if people. like to paythe higher rate. But there mire inany peoplewho are prepared to take a risk. 'We mightsafely say that for one case that is lost thleir(may be a million that are niot.

Mr. Styants : All thle more reasoni whnyou Should pay for thle los~s Of this particul-lar one.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Thelion. iinier wvill agree that we mutst havere-ulatioms and we litust conform to theml.

Mr. Seward: That was not tilie rililig of,thle p~rev-ious Commissioner.

The IMINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: IfIwere dislmatehling aL ease conltain1ing cIlting1

or valuables, fwould not ran thle risk of'losing it, h oc the sake of a 19 per, cent. it,-crease oii the chlarge of 5s. 6id.

.1[on. C. G. ]Lathamn: People are now stumi-iiig- parcels throughb the post. '11me find itrhecaper hii soffle instances,

The IN'ISTER 100ll RAILW1%AYS : ThlenMeinhem for IKalgoorliv referred to a Il-steelboilers, anid was critical about theiir imtro-duetionl. I dIO not know ineh about thle vir-eomistances~ that led to the~ir inktrodu1Cti:mhut I supp~ose that at the timec it was deeidodto give them a trial. They had been wellrecommended, perhaps front some otherrailway s ystem. There was the question ofthe cost because time all-steel boilers cost£1,100 as a~gainst. £1,500 for copper boilers.That was a consideration.

Mr. Styants: The departament lost thediffereince in the first five years ao' the use(if the boilers.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: TrID not know ttmat that is so.

Mr. Styants: Will you agree to anl inaquirybeing instituted into the miatter?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Idjo not know why I should. I take it that itwans a q[uestion on) whichl a. decision had to bema1de. 'rite riepartinent was advised that itwas, a proposition that had the elements oficoiloii Ijehiiid it, As I said, there -was a(litfiereiee inl cost of £400, and .1 imnagine[lint thei all-bleed boilers were w-eli recont-IjiceRILed. 1 twever, eventsi proved that theydid niot comle upl to expectations clue to thewaler that lint] to he used inl thein and theelfeeL- of' that watcr onl the tubes and stays-.'l'li into enition I gave in reply to thle boa.1menmber's questions was quite correct. He,askedl ie what was the cost during the fli-stthree years of service, and I replied that theaverage cost was £92.

Mr Stvaints: All the boilers were included.The MJNISTER £011 RAILWAYS: 1gav the, cost inl the lirst three years of ser-

Mr. Sly-ants : There were only live of the:12 that had live years' service.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I,to say that thle department assured we thatthe, informiation wvas correct Al/ith regardh,' (hie long-service leave of thle ChiefMechanical Engineer to which the hon. mem-her referred, a good deal of thle leave hand

arudlong before the present Commnis-sionler assomed control.

Mr. 513-ants: I aml not blamning you orI le (unllinussilner.

The M1IXNISTEll FOlR ItAIIJAYS:know.- Since I1 have been iii charge of thisdepinicirt [ lie Government's views onl thequestion of long-service leave have been-I rongl v iihasised, and quite a good dealof long-servive leave ill the Railway D~epart-iiirut has been taken since I have been Mini-ister for Railway~vs. In the case of the Chief'Mocha iicle Ei inieei circuinstances haveatrisenl from time to time under which he wasnot able in take the leave that was due tohin. 'Tie department required his services.I have no desire to go0 imito the details asso-ciateil with this mnatter, because that wouldtake too long. The fact remainls that leavehas acimulateci for many years-, and thel1ostponlenient has beeii due to circumnstance,:sanising which would have mnade it incon-venlienit for the deprtmetint to allow theoiler to go. Hfowever, 1. think the offi-cer is within a few years of the retiringage.; at the same time the policy ofthe Glovernmnent is that long-service leave

2235

[ASSEMBLY.]

inuLst fie tatkent before all Ollicer reaewstIE nage ofi 6-5. We til]Ireciai; the factthat an offlier prejudices his positionI.y not taking long-service leave. Leave isgiven to an officer to enable him to rec-uper-ate, and we assume that as a result of thairecuperation he wvill he able to render betterservice when lie retuns after his leave. Atthe same time, no matter which GovernmentLuay be in power, circumstances arc boundto arise sometimes that will prevent anl officerensjoying the holidays that are due to him.There have been, instances where oflcersactually made shipping arrangements andluad to cancel them at the behest of the Gov-ernment.

Hon. C. G. Latham: Do 'you think (hat.should go on indefinitely 9

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: No,but circumstances do arise from time to timewhich oblige thle Government to cancel anlofficer's leave for the time being. With re-gard to the Chief Mechanical Engineer itdoes appear that his leave has been accumu-lating for at considerable period, possibly10 or 11 years.

Mr. Styants: It looks like, 24 years to me.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: I

ulo not think it is ats long as that. The officerhas beenm able to take out some of the leave,though not all,

Mr. Styants: What about the 32 weeks'accumulated annual leave?

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:That was not taken for the reason I havegiven. The member for Pingelly (Mr. Sew-ard) referred to poor meals supplied atKalgoorlie. I know the dining roomi there,'and I consider that since the alteration inthe timetable from the East, quite a goodmeal has been provided. It is as good asany that can be obtained in thle city. It isunfortunate that the passengers to whom hiereferred had to complain ahout tile qnalitxof the meal.

Hfon. C. G. Lathanm: A good mcal wvasprovided there when I was in ]Kalgoorlie.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAY S:There aire always critics of meals wvher-ever one goes. We have heard itsaid that no one could cook cakes likeniollwer conld. it may he because a person'sdigestion is not as good ats it was. Manlycomplaints regarding meals are due al-mtost entirely to a person's digestion.T[he miember for Pingelly mnade several sug-gestions about thle speeding up of the Albany

tradin MidL abont the division of Lte bogeytrucks. I assure him that consideration willbe given to the ideas advanced. The mecr-her for Kattanning said that I regardedall the suggestions that were offered as beingmore or less in the nature of carping criti-visni. But I would point out that on severaloccalsions, both in introducing Estimates andin replying to the debate, I have given theRo use an assurance that all suggestionsmade , whether by mnembers of the House orOf the general public, received every con-side ration. I welcome constructive criticism.One of the funetions of Parliament is to becrlitical. If criticism is constructive, so Much

thle better. No one likes destructive criti-cis~m. We welcome suggestions such as~thoseoif the member for Pin gelly, who, as a resultof his travelling experience, has come torealise that it would be better for passen-gers on the Albany traini if that train ranstraight through from Spencer's Brook toPerth without stopping and that sheep wouldtravel better in bogey trucks if there were adlivisioni so that the sheep would not swayso much.

The member for Swan (Mr. Samnpson)spoke again about electric light extensions.We appreciate the comfort and conveniencethat electric light extensions afford thepeople. From what he has told me, I gatherthat the lion, mnember is chiefly interested inthe supply of electric power. He says itwould be a convenience to the orchardists inhis district if they were able to pump waterwith the aid of electric motors, instead ofhaving to rely upon oil engines, as many doait the present time. Those engines appearto he rather unreliable and certainly not asreliable as electric motors. A good deal ofmisu nderstan ding exists concerning powercosts in indlu~try. Recent investigationsin America revealed that power costsin industry are only about 3 per cent.of the total cost, so the cost of power is notlikely to make a great deal of difference inthe profit or loss of the orchardists of thedistrict of the member for Swan. I appre-ciate the fact that electric current would bea convenience for the womenfolk in thatparticular urea, and to the orehardists forpumuping water, and we hope to be able toallot money for some of those extensions Nithe near future, because once the "B" sta-tion is in commercial operation we will haveto Antd some outlet for its potentialities.

[17 NovemBER, 19.38.] 23

TIflnpflhl)C for Albany dealt with wvhatis dlone iii South Africa. He pointed outthe cost of railway construction per milethere ats compared with that in WesternAustralia. He g-ave the reason for theatdditional east there when he mentioned thefnret that millions had been spent on bridgesand tunnels. South Africa is an entirelydifferent position front Western Australiabecause of the cheap labour at its disposalanid its bigger popuilation. The populationfactor is referred to in the Commissioner's.report, wherein lie points anit the differencein the earnings, per ronte mile as comparedwith those in Western Aulstralia.

Thet inieruer far Murchisotn was rather,4c0iinpliurentarv and] 1 greatly appreciate hisrefe~renc to the Commissioner and to theefforts of the Railway Department ing1eneral. We have not gone in f or particu-ladly high standards in Western Australia.We realise that our first necessity is toextend railways because of the vast areaswe have to develop, and there cannot beextensions and high standards at the saur"timne because we- hare nlot tire money103 toafford them. But we have a standard corn-parable with the extent of our railways, andas far as finances will permit the Commis-sioner is% endeavouring to improve thatsitandard all the time. Considering all the

vrrmstanes-thc rolling stock, the narrow-range and the great distances-the RailwayDepartment in this State is doing a veryfair job. T appreciate very much the com-pliments paid by the member for Murehison.

The question of tire lighting on the jett .yait lBnsselton referred to by tire mnember forSnrsexs has been meirtion ed Tram time totime. The matter is one of cashf comparedwith tire merits of tire pt'opocsitiout. The jettyis lightedi down to the junction. I k-nowthler have ben orre at' two fatalities oca-sinned through sariiors -Falling from shipsinko tire water, brit T speak, from experience-bevause T walked down the jettY on a

dark night to findI orrt myself-when I sa~ythat urn one, in a reasonable eon-ditionr of body or mind slrould -Fall off theJetty hecause there is a fence an one sideall the way down except for one smallportion where the jetty widens ant. 'Nosober person is likely to fall off the jetty.Admittedly, if tire jetty were lighted rightdown to tire end it would he a vast im-pror'enrent. lbmt the question is one, of cost

arid of necessity. While the proposal hassomeI merit in it, it has not as much meritats other proposals that are put forwardregqLIiring expenditure af money.

The mtember for Kattanning (Mr. Watts)sipoke about the possibilities of the Rail-way Department recovering its last passen-ger traffic and of how people are usingmoiatar cars. rather than trains. There arereasons why the railways are losing pas-so ngc'r traffic other than those that mightb(!: sail to be due to the service being ren-deredl. Onrro of the reasons was indicatedthe othe uioughil whetn another Minister, in-I roduiniri either tire Batting Bill or thelPolice Estimates, painted out that in 1926-27, when the Railway Department reachedits peak iii regaird to passenger traffic therewere 8,283 registered motor cars in themetropolitan area, and in 1938 there were21,283, The seine position would applythroughout the whole State. Far wore earsaire registered now than in 1926-27. Notonly tas there been anl increase in thenuihlber of ears, but IL vast improvementhas, taken place in the ears themselves.Tit 1926-927 a nil would pride himself onhavint- o enr that w-ould do 30 to 40 milesan liar. ftn at mrodern car one can travel40 mriles an hour without realising it. Inthe old clays. if one had to face thepossibility' of having to stay overnight atMieriwlin in the event of coining down toPerth fronii -Kalgoorlie by ear, one thoughttwice about it and generally preferred thet ratin I joururey. 'If there were a bitumen roadfront Kalgoorlie to Perth more people -wouldtravel by ear between those two centres.

Mr. Patrick: The trains would lose a lot

The MTINISTEE FOUl RAILWAYS: Ithink illeY would, because of the improve-uiert in ears anrd in the road. Such fac-tors lire department would find it almostimopossibule to counter nto matter how goodrthe servicev it rendered. J do riot knowWhether I did promise the member forsubiaCa that sonic0 or the traims would berecond itiorred.

Honn. C. G. Lathamr: You dlid once.Thre '31TNISTER FOR RAILWAYS: We

put on art altered tramn as an experiment-Hon. C. G. Tatham: Then took it off

again.MKi's. Cardell-Oliver: T have not been able

to find it.

2237

2238 [ASSEMBLY.]

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Themodern trais in 'Melbourne still have hardseats.

Mrs. Cardell-Olivcr: I referred to stepsnot seats.

'lie -MINISTERl FOR RAILWAYS:Well1, the people that use the tramns to-(lay used them when they were first in-troduced.

Mrs. Cardell-Oliver: But the people havegrown older.I

The IfNISTER,1 FOH RAILWAYS:There were old people in those days. Whenhobble-skirts were 'vern, wvomen had diffi-culty' in hoarding trains. The Melbournetramis, I know. ar e built, lower down onl theroad and are quite easy to enter. Thereis a consequent difference in the speed atwhich they ore able to travel from end toend.

Mrs. Cardel I-Oliver : it wvould not 1-o-t,,jel to put in a nether step.

The MI-NISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Tthink there are some technical difficulties con-nected with the additional step.

Hon. C. G. Latham: Some tranicars havetwo steps, sonmc only' one.

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ih~ave an impression that the altered tramiproved flint added dlanger' arose from theadelel tepl.

-Mrs. Cardll-Oliver: That is not so.Thue MAINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

There aIppeals to be less danger when onehals to negotiate Only a single step than whenone has to negotiate two steps, as in thetrain whichi was altered. .1 shall again takeIpII (lie mlatter witlh the tramway people.

lion. C. G. Lathanm: Some steps are igehsoime a ic low.

The 'MINISTERi FOR RAiLWAYS:What can lie done foi' the womuen who hiavebabies, a ad who eailnot get sea tsa?

Mifs. Cardiell-flliver: TI Russia four seatsinl o traml a ic reserved for women withb abies. Suirely we caIn do as ali as Russialioes!

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:Formerly men willingly gave up their seatstn women wvith, babies. Nowadayvs wvomnismi to inisist on a measure Of mcuali tY andto fail to appreciate it when they get it.That is the trouble. Anatole France in one,of Iii- works pointed out to women that thleywere fast losing their privileges beenause oftheir desire to obtain equalit 'y with mcii.[lowever-, it is a striking reflection on exist-

ing conditions if women nursing ))allies areunable to find seats in trarns-na1less, ofcourse, all the seats are occupied by women,though even a woman iisually will stand allin order to give a seat to a wvomlnai who isiursing a baby. I believe that also appliesto meii, despite women's demand for equhality.

Now as to lights on trais, whichhave given rise to sonie contention. Wveall know that if there were more lighltsaround a t rain it could be better seen byinotori st . Mly feeling is that a motorist whois trliable of driving a car should be ableto s-cc thiuigs oili the road that ale not lightedal ill. H-e should lie able to see, for instance,:i pmlestrian crossing tile road.

loni. G. (:. Lathiami: Drive a ear sonic timeandisee

'rhe MINISTERi FOR RAILWAYS: Ihave liard led onl many country roads overwhich limber is carted, and have been ableto see ai log- ac-ross the road. I have alsobeeni ale to see bsricks that had fallen offA C 011111rvial v ehli c. Can not a capablenotorist see such things onl the road? Allh le motorists I have driven with have been

Ollie to See them11, anyhow. Tramway auth-orjtius throughout the world agree that theli(Gscnt svsteni of lighting is efficient. As I011CC Ipoinated oIIt to a deputation, in Kul-goorliv the cars hadl lights something likethle lights oil locomotives.

l],Io. (KC. G. Lathami: Why not have suchflihts onl buses?

Thle MIINISTERM FOR RAILLWAYS: Be-(:111-P buses arec onl the wrong side of the"oad halfV the timei, passing other traffic.

'rriinas Vo-annot do that. Mlany references weremade to at smnash onl Mouint's Bay-road, wherea not orist ran inito a tramn at night and thetain wans s-tan dinl, ill the loop, not nmoving

at1 all. I pointed oit to at depua-lion that "atie imagist rate hand drawn at tenl-Fanli In Ow' lighting tit' vars. A Kalgoorlielinagistia te "va killed Ivy running into the.side of a tr-a. M.%otorists should at least be.able to sec a t ram. Departmental statistics%prove that most of the accidents occurring-between niotors and trais occur in the day-timle-not at nighlt. So the lights on trainswill not make mucli difference to people whocannot see a train in the daytime withoutruinning into it. Still, I appreciate the argui-meii that if three lighits are put on a tram,motorists can see it better than if it has onlyoneo lizht. So much is undeniable. Tf there

[17 NOVEUBER, 1938.] 23

were lights all around a tram, as on the cele-bration of somec important event, one couldsee it better still. Were I a motorist, I wouldhe ashamed to acknowledge that my roadsense had remained so undeveloped that Icould not see a tram come along.

Hon. C. G. Latlham: Have you ever drivena motor ear in a shower of rain at night-timne9

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Ihave had the experience of driving a tramin a shower of rain at night-time. In thosecircumstances I was particularly careful.1 knew whet speed I could go at when driv-ing& through a shower of rain at night. Ihave had years of experience in driving ye-hides, and during those years I developeda. road sense. That sense is developedwhether one drives a bugg or a motor ear.Many motorists lack a good road sense.

Mr. Doney: Because they had to get outof your road!

The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:Every time an accident occurs in connectionwith a tram, the mnotorman is called up andasked why. He has to put in a report ex-plaining why he is such an incapable driverthat he cannot go along without hittingsomething. The motorman is compelled tohave great respect for other people. Thereis nothing a motonnan likes hetter than togo through the whole year without havingan accident-unless it is going through tenyears. The member for ]Roebourne (Mr.Rodoreda) drives a motor car, and is acapable driver, and knows as well as I dothat there are hundreds of drivers on theroads who have not yet developed a road.sense. Many of them bhare not been drivinglong enough to develop such a sense. Itcannot be developed in six months. At thePerth Police Station one is given a permitfor a month to learn to drive. So I presumeone is supposed to know all about it in amonth, that being all the period the permitgives. Then, having shown one's proficiencyby driving around the Horseshoe Bridge, onegets a license to drive. However, a roadsense is not to he developed in a month.Many people never develop that sense. Onecannot but admit that if there were moreJiuhts on a tramlear. it would be seen moreeasily, flowerer, a tramear should be seenas it is. That is the point.

As regards a reqnest of the member forPilbara (Mr. Welsh), I have to point nutthat £10,000 of the railways deficit of 109,000

ca1l

is due to the Port Hodland-Marble Barrailway. Of the £19,000 the departmentlost, £:10,000 was lost on the working of thatline. It is a losing proposition, though Ido not wish to rest this ease entirely on thatfact. It is not usual for the department togiant concessions except within the dep art-ment itself. The railway employees receivefree railway fares, perhaps those workingon State steamers receive free passage onthose steamers, and possibly employees ofthe Water Supply Department may receivesome allowance for excess water. To extendprivileges fronm one department to anotherwould establish an undesirable precedent.Employees at Por't Hedland are allowed toaccumulate their leave so that they will havea holiday every three years instead of havingto take it every year as they do in the metro-politan area. To that extent they receive aconcession. 'Many of them are up there fora period only. Others are there all the timeand arc engaged locally. They are picked upat Port Hedlanid and are not mnoved aboutfrom one part of the system to the other.Ordinarily, the railway organisation mustdispose its staff to the best advantage.

Mr. Welsh: What privileges do they get?The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

They are picked up in' the district.Mlr. Welsh: Some of them.The MIMTISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

Those that arc engaged on the permanientway. Mfen transferred front the nietiropoli-tan area or sonic other part of the systemremain at Port Hedland for three yearsonly, after which they may be transferredif they so desire.

Mr. Welsh: Some of the men are married.The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS:

There is a difference between them arid theother railway employees. They remain thereand are not moved about. The depart-ment does not expect to have to movethem about. Other employees niay be inFremnantle to-day and in Wiluna next week.Because they are moved abouEt front pointto point withil 01V el'evi-e, they receive Con-eesioirs in railway fares. Wec say to themnen, "You have to g o Where we want You togso." We do not say that to the nieri at Port1-ledland, because the job is a local one.They know the conditions when they takeoniiite wvork, and they know they are! allowedto accumulate their leave for three years ifthey so desire, in which ease they have timeto conme south.

2239

2240 17ASSEMBLY.1

Mr. Welsh: The holidlays they- ge(t wouldnot permlit theml e'vein to reachl PeCrth.

Tfle _MINISTE;R FOR RAiLWAYS:They would surely have a week in Put(h

Mrs. Cardell-Oliver: It is not healthy forthemn to remanin there so long.

The MINISTER FOR. RAILWVAY-S:Mal1y occupations are unhealthy. Thv hon.

member has had an easy lime in this world.She has agreat deal of sympathy for people,lbut she must realiac that iuany' persons haveto Put up ith dilbeculties. _Men are eno'aredill all kind.; of un1healthy Occupations' blitniust take thenm in order to live. Peopleborn With It silvcr spoon in their miouths donot appreciate the diffIiculties that other pco-pie have to contend with. Theyv live in a halfof. the world that knows very little about theother halt, although they' throw out occa-sional. symlpathetic remark-,.

Mrs, Cardell-Oliver: There is 'io liecessit~yfor you fo bie sarcastic.

The -MINISTER FOR RIi~LWAYS:Something more than that is required toreinedy all the evils of oar- social system.

Mr1s. Uardcll-Oliver: Suelt as free trai--port for these men,

'The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Werequire something more than sympathy. As.the song says, "A4ll I get is sympathy and itis not a bit of use to mie," The member forNorth-East Fremnantle referred to the in-mumt chlarge for thle supply of electriccurrent. That is a Principle established inconnection with the supply of electric cur-rent wherever it is supplied. Certain mainl-tenanee iharg1es are involved] in all houseconnections,. The department has to lierespoisihle for the transmuission of tihe cur-rent to the conisumler's house, right up tothe point of entry. For business priil-ciples we have to fix a minlimlum char'gewhich, at 10s. a quarter in the Cottesloc area,is a low one. We cannot disturb that wellrecognDised principle. No great demand isMade upon thle Commissioner in respect ofthe amount of cur-rent used. Whilst I feelsympathetic towards the few people whomay not use enough current to reach theminimum charge, I feel it would be unwiseto introduce an undesirable principle intothe business of supplying electric current.People may be well enough off to go awayfor their holidays and lock up their houses,in which ease, without a minimum charge,they would pay nothing. It would he diffi-cult to distinguish between one and an-

other. So long as the nsinimuzn fi-sed islow, 1 0can see nothing wrong with theprinciple. Thle hon. member wants thenumber of lights for local authorities in-creased, or the rate charged per lightreoluced so that they may have more lights forthe same or less money. If a person islooking for riductions inl electric lightchlarges, hie should be ready to Put up aprop~osal that if more lights fire supliedmiore current will be used. The sugges-tion, howvever, is that the same amount ofcurrent will be used but that more lightsare wanted. If it were that twice amuch current would be used, provided dlieprice per unit were reduced, the proposalwould be worthy of consideration. As it,is, we are expected to give away somethingand receive nothing in return.

Mr. Cross: You made more profit lastyear.

Mr. Thorn: The lights will. be out in ai mu te.

The MAlINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: Thecharge in the district in question is a rea-sonable one. We could not consider anyproposal to provide more lighffts for thesamue revenue. If a proposal were submittedwhereb~py the local authorities would greatlyincrease their consumption so that the de-piartmnent would also enjoy augmented rev-enue, in consequence of which a proportion-ate reduction could be made in thle cost ofcurrent to those authorities, it might beworthy of consideration. On the other hand,thle local authorities desire more lights forthe expenditure of the Same amount ofmioney. As to the transfer of customers, towhich reference was made by the memaberfor North-East Fremantle, I Should saY thathas been due to the fact that the Fremantlehoard was able to provide more favourableconditions than the department. The situa-tion may be due entirely to the particulartype of consumer involved. I do not knowIhe circumstances associated with the matter,but there must he some very good explana-lion. I thank members for the way theyhave received the Estimates and I assuirethenm that all constructive suggestions ad.-vanced will he given due consideration.

VTote put find passed.

Progress reported.

House adjourned at 10.38 p.,m,

2240