Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Council

THURSDAY, 21 DECEMBER 1916

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

2786 Special A.djournment. [COUNCIL.] Death of the President.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

THURSDAY, 21 DECEMBER, 1916.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN (Hon. W; F. Taylor) took the chair at 7 p.m.

ASSENT TO BILLS.

The PRESIDIKG CHAIRMAN announced the receipt. from the Governor of messages conv<:>ying his Excellency's assent to the following:-

Mines Regulation Act Amendment Bill; Money Lenders Bill; Factories and Shops Acts Amendment

Bill; Traffic Act Amendment BiH; Industrial Arbitration Bill; Queensland Government Savings Bank

Bill; State Salaries (Commonwealth Taxation)

Bill; and Land Act Amendment Bill.

DEATH OF THE PRESIDENT.

RESOLUTION EXPRESSING SYMPATHY.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. W. Hamilton), in moving-

" That it is with regret this House desires to express and place on record its deep sense or ihe great loss the State of Queens! and has suffered by the death of the Prf'lsident of this Council, the Honour­able Sir Arthur Morgan,"

said : Our late respected President was a man of wide experience in parliamentary government. He wae a member of the Legis­lative Assembly for many years, and prior to his apppointment as President of this Chamber, some ten years ago, occupied the honourable and responsible positions of Chairman of Committees, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, and Premier of Queens­land. His work in all spheres of his labour was marked with conspicuous ability and energy, tact, wisdom, and a high sense of public duty. His occupancy of the honoured position of Lieutenant-Governor of Queens­land gave further proof of his marked ability and thorough knowledge of the aS'airs vf State.

His manliness. uprightness, courteousne>s . .and kindness of heart endeared him to .dl who came in contact with him, both in Par­liament and in the community generally.

His loss to the State will be very great. His presence in this Chamber will be sadly missed. His whole life was given to the service of Queensland, both in parliamentary and in local affairs. His name will b<j rever-ed and honoured as that of one who truly loved his fellow-men, and he will be remembered in future days as one of the great men who wrought strenuously for the prosperity and advancement of this, his native land ..

I am sure the sentiments I have expressed wi 11 find echo in the thoughts of every member of this House, and our hearts go out in sympathy to his sorrowing wife and children, to whom we offer our sincerest condoler.ce i'l their great trouble.

Death of (21 DEOBMBBR.] the P1·esident. 2787

HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: I wish to add · brieflv mv own Poincidence with all that has

been· said. It is highly eulogistic, but not more so than has been deserved. It has been my experience to have shared in three such occasions as this. First, after the death of Sir Arthur Palmer; second, after the death of Sir Hugh Nelson; and now in the present unhappy circumstances. This is the more unhappy in my estimation, because our President, who only passed away yesterday, .has not reached the period of life to which the other two Presidents attained. They reached a considerable age-they lived long and useful lives-but, though Sir Arthur

· Morgan lived a less time, he lived a no less useful life. There is no question in my judgment about his practical interest in the welfare of the State of his nativity--

HoxoURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

Hm:. F. T. BRENT~ALL: And the 'fidelity with which he discharged all the duties placed upon him in both private and official positions. I think it is ·something worth emphasising that he has served all the interests of public life which have been com­mitted to him with credit to himself and benefit to the countrv. An example like that rl:o the young men of our country is worth .emphasising, as showing what a studious, well-conducted, earnest-minded youth might -rise to if he will only use his abilities and energies in a proper manner and to a proper extent. \Ve have had the advantage of his experience in public' matters. He has at all ti nos shown suavity to us. I cannot Pall to mind a single instance in which I have received from him anything but the utmost kindness, affability, and readiness to advise 'Or assist me as I might have needed, and I have sometimes sought his advice. As has ·been properly stated, our late Pre~ident had the advantage of previ)us experience when he came here. He had graduated from the 'lowest rung of the ladder to the highest -position in the State. He was for some years a private member of another place; he was 'Chairman of Committees there, then he was SpeakeP there, then he occupied the position of Premier for some time, and from that posi­tion he was elevated to· the position of Presi­-dent of this Chamber. Som~ people may say <'vnocallv that there was no elevation at all, ·b'ut still this is the Upper House. and I think there is a little credit 'attaching to any gentle­man who works himself up into a position from which the Governor can call upon him, when he thinks fit, to take his place as Presi­dent of thie Council. }\.ll his life has been spent in public affairs, and he has taken a practical interest in public affairs. It was meet and proper that he shonld in due time receive the 'honour which he did receive as a just reward to a deserving man. I do not know that I need add anything more; except express m~· own personal appreciation of his ability, . of 'his suavitv, of his approachableness, and Wlll­'ingness to help, and I wish also to express ·mv admiration of his character. He has Teached a height in the estimation of the general public of this State that any one of us here or anvone outside the House might ·envv We could not rise bi;;her than he has done: and we, all of us, feel grateful, if we do not feel. proud, that a member of our

·council has · occupied such a distinguished position. While occupYing th!'t distinguished

:position, he never made a m}stake as far as

I can recollect. He always acted discrePtly and always served the interests of the country m every judgment which hP. expressed, and we had to-day, as we foVow~d the funeral towards the cemetery, ev1dence of the public estimation in which our late President was held. Lam very glad that the Nfinister as representing the Government here, b;ought forward this motion, which, I am sure, will have our unanimous approval. I have been in close touch with the deceased President since he came into thb Council, and I feel that I have suffered a personal loss in his demise.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I do not think there is very much to say in addition to what has been said by the Minister in expressing the views of the Government on the loss that we have sustained, and also after what the Hon. Mr. Brentnall has said, but I should like to add a few words as one who has been, in his parliamentary career, in close association with Sir Arthur Morgan from different points of view, and in both Chambers. As the Hon. Mr. Brentnall has said, it is to be regretted that he did not reach the same span of life that was attained bv his two predecessors. Sir Arthur Morgan h;,s passed away at a comparatively early period of life, and I think one of the reasons for that was owing to the very strenuous years that he put in after he resigned the Speakership in the other House. He under­took charge o'f the affairs of Queensland at a very perilous time, when things were look­ing very bad indeed, and. h<; had the. r~s.o!u­tion and the high sense of h1s responslbihties to enable him to attack matters, finances especially, from a point of view that I think verv few men would dare to tackle them, and he 'was successful, with the assistance of his then colleagues, in bringing Queensland into a most satisfactory financial position. That will always stand to his credit, and it is very much indeed to his credit that he should have left the high position of Speakership-one which carries with it calm serenity, if I may sav so-to undertake the strife and troubles o( party politics, and I consider he succeeded as very' few men <'ould have succee?ed !'t the time in Qqeensland. He has p~t m his full time at local government work m the House, and we in this Chamber know how well he has occupied the dignified position of Pres!­dent of this Council. His high ..sense of hrs responsibilities and his exceptionally great knowledge of the Standing O~·ders an?· parliamentary government gave hrm a posi­tion here that I think could not have been attainPd bY anv other hon. member of this Chamb.er. i must say that I feel very strongly at the loss we have sustained, and I feel particularly for his widow and family. They will loge a g<!od husband and. a g<!od father, and his fanuly ·have the gratification of knowing that he really was a great Queens­lander that he will stand as an example to future' generations of Qucenslanders for what can be done by one who was brought up entirely in Queensland. He is an example of our education system in Queensland and the possibilitiPs ope': . to any man wh? haB the grit and the ability. I do not thmk I need- say any more. I thoroughly endorse all that has be~>n said by both previous speakers.

HoN. P.· J. LEAHY: There is really not much to add to the eloquent words used by the previous speake.rB with regard to our

lion. F .. }'. l.r·al111 -~

2788 Death of [COUNCIL.] . the President.

late President, but, as I had the advantage and privilege of being acquainted with him for something like a quarter of a century,

it may not be inappropriate if [7.30 p.m.] I also make a few remarks. I

think it is something like twenty­five ye:u& since I first met him at a Press conf(·rence-we all know that at one time in his life he was for a long period .associated with the Press. Later on, I was in the Assembly when he was a private member, when he was Speaker, and when he was Premier of the State, and for five years I have seen a great deal of him here. So that it mav be fitting that I should say some· thing ~in regard to him. What one can say at the outset is that he was a self-made man. He rose without any adventitious aids, with­out anything in his favour except w~at was the result of his own efforts. I thmk one might truly say of him ~hat Tennyson says-

" \Vho makes by force his merit known, And iivos to clutch the golden keys, 'l'o mould a mighty State's decrees,

And shape the whisper of the Throne."

He did i, shape the whisper of a throne" for two or three years while he was Premier of Queensland. He rose from the position, I might saJ, of an of!ice boy in a newspaper business, owned by hts father, to the htghost position that the State of Queensland could bestow, and throughout all that period, whether his position was high or whether it was low, I am certain that he always endeavoured-and·! think succeeded-in a,t. ing as the oecasion demanded, with ma,rked ability and with dignity. Indeed, I think it would be difficult to find in Queensland, or perhaps in Australia, any man who could morll worthily fulfil the duties of President of this Chamber than did he during the period for which he occupied the chair. l\io doubt, some President will succeed him; but I d·o not think any President can replace him. Sorrow for the inevitable is, of course, uselese, but there is this consolation-that everything does not end here, and, as the poet puts it--

" There is no death. \Vhat ,eems so is transition;

This life of mortal breath Is but a suburb of the life Elysian

\Vhose portals we call death."

Ho.>r. B. FAHEY: I desire to contribute my expression of regret at the very great loss this Council and the State has sustained in till) death of our late President, Sir Arthur Morgan. He was one of the !llOSt dis­tinguished wns of Queensland: He filled every important public position in the State "'"ith g1 eat a-dvantage to the State and credit t;:, himst>l£, and, whilst I have no desire tJ make an;; lengthy remarKs on the subjec-t oi hi" career in Queensland, I can only say tho,t no President-! do not care who he may be­can be made from any man in Queensland to fill the position in the creditable way in which Sir Arthur Morgan filled it. He added, I think, more dignity to that position than any who occupied it previously, and I think he was as highly qualified and as well versed in all the duties appertaining to his high office as anybody who preceded him, and no gentleman or member of this House could have carried out the duties with greater dignity, more impa.rtiality, and greater

fHon. P._J. Leahy.

capacity than he did during his career a& President of this Council. He occupied vari­ous prominent positions in the public life of Queensland, and he never occupied a posi­tion upon which he did not reflect credit. He rose from the humblest position in Par­liament to the highest to which any citizen in Queensland can aspire, and to the duties of that office he brought great ability, great tact, firmness; and quality, and he filled' it for some years with great advantage to the country and credit to himself. I express. also my deep regret that I have lost a personal friend. It is to him that I owe mv position as a member of this Council, and although I c"'me on one occasion un­fortunately into conflict with his ruling in th" Council. I am pleased to say that I did what any hon. member ought to de, before I left this House. I expresocd my regret to him penonally and offered to make th" amende honourable in this Council, but he would not allow me to do so. He acknow­ledged my wish, and, taking both my hands-I am quite willing to say so-he said, "' Fahey, I would look upon you as my greatest defend<>r if anyone offended me or insulted me in that House."

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: As a compara­tively new member, I may be pal'doned if I a-dd m.v personal tributes to the help and kindly counsel I have at all times received from the late Hon. Sir Arthur Morgan. He was the sixth President we have had in this Chamber. Sir Chas. Nicholson occupied the position for only three months at the very beginning, Sir Maurice O'Connell for nineteen years, Sir Joshua Peter Bell for two years, Sir Arthur p,almer for seventeen years, Sir Hugh Nelson for eight years, and Sir Arthur Morgan for eleven years within. a few days. (Hear, hear!) It is quite unnecessary, after the eloquent tributes that have been paid to him by previous speakers, for me to refer to the impressive dignity with which Sir Arthur Morgan occupied his position. Many of us do not know much about his career in another place, but we know that certainlv when he was removed from the ' turmoil. of that House to the serener atmos­phere of this, he adorned the position from the beginning until the time came to lay down his work. I feel sure that hon. mem­bers present will feel that they have lost a personal friend as well as one of the greatest public men that have been found in the history of Queensland, and as the Hon. Mr. Fahey has said, it is a matter of great congratulation that a Queenslander should have risen to such a high position in public life. We feel sure that every hon. member will tender the sincerest sympathy to those who mourn the demise of Sir Arthur Morgan as husband and father, and we know that his crowded life here will be an example to very many Queenslanders in the future. It is quite unnecessary to add anything more to what has been said, but I certainly should not like this occasion to pass without a word of mine of sincere personal regret at the losing of a friend at a time when Queensland has lost one of her best public men.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN : As one who knew the late Sir Arthur Morgan for a great number of years I would like to say a few words with respect to him. When I first met him he was a young man of

Letter of Condotence. [21 DECEMBER.] Appropria.i,on Bill, No. 3. 2789

about nineteen years of age. The year was 1875. I went to Warwick to practise, and -there I became acquainted with him, an active, smart, bright, young fellow, bidding­fair then to make his mark in the world. At a very early age-owing to the death of his father-he was called upon to take over the management of tbe Warwick "ArguF," and that paper he conducted not only with ·conspicuous ability, but also with financial success. Shortly afterwards, his talents being recognised by the people of 'Varwick, he was selected as their member of Parliament. His c.'1reer in the Assembly and subsequently is well-known to all of you. and, therefore, I need not recapitulate it. Personally, he and I were always on terms <..£ the greatest fJCiendship. I had the very highest esteem of 1um as a young man, and that esteem was fully justified by his subsequent career. I found in him a true friend and one to whom I could always go when I was in difficulty with respect to my work here, and get from bim wis·e counsel and good advice. (Hear, hear !} His loss will be felt by me during the time I remain in the occupancy of this officl•, I suppose, more than by any other bon. member of. this House, because in any difficulty I always had him to whom I could go and whom I could consult, but I am afraid that now I shall have to do without that advice. I deeply deplore his loss as a personal friend, and I am sure the country has suffered a very great loss indeed. All classes in the community realise what a good man he has been for Queensland, and manv with whom he never came in contact­some I have met since yesterday-state their very high opinion of him, although they were not personally acquainted with him. They knew his good works for Queensland. anti knew him to be thoroughly reliable and tho,oughly imbued with the desire to do the hest he possibly could for his native country. Of course, it is the lot of all of us to go sooner or l<l.ter. He had finished his work. thong'!> a corp.naratively young man. We sometimes fimsh our work at a verv earlv age in this phase of our existence : sometimes we go on to a very great age. Still, we do not leave this phase of our existence ·until we have finish<'d our work. .and he had finishPd his, and has left behind him a splendid record. (-Hear, hear !)

Question put and passed, hon. members signifying their assent and respect by rising in their places

LETTER OF CONDOLENCE TO LADY MORGAN.

'The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved.:_ " That the following letter be for­

warded by the Honourable the Presiding Chairman to Lady Morgan :-, Dear Lady Morgan,-

W e, the members of the Legislative Council of Queensland, in Parliament assembled, desire to express our deep sense of the great loss the public .and this Council have suffered by the lamented death of the Honourable Sir Arthur Morgan, President of this Council.

We desire to convey to you and the members of your family our sincere sympathy with you in your bereave­Inent.''

'Question put and passed.

QUESTION.

INSURANCE OF Pc:BLIC SERVANTS.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES asked the repre, sentative of the Government-

" 1. Are all members of the State public service who are paying into the superannuation fund also insured against accident or death by Govern­ment insurance under the Workers' Compensation Act?

"2. If so, what is the scale of benefits -(a) In case of enforced absence from work through accident ; (b) in case of fatal accident?

" 3. In case of a fatal accident, what amount would be received, under the superannuation fund, by dependents of the deceased?

" 4. If such member of the public service had not been in the super­annuation fund, ll'ould he have been insured under the Workers' Compen-. sation Act? If so, how would the premiums be paid? What amount would be paid by the Government to dependents of such deceased?"

The SECRETARY FOR MINES replied-" Members of the State public service

receive such compensation as by the Act they m<J.y be entitled to. See definition of 'worker' in section 3 of Act."

Hon. E. W. H. FOWLES : Fiftt>en of them got only £200 each; they get £750 outside the public service.

APPROPRIATION BILL, No. 3.

FIRST READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, this Bill, received by message from the Assembly, was read a first time.

SECOND READING

The SEORE'I'ARY FOR MINES: The Bill-No. 3 of this vear-covers the amounts to be appropriated from consolidated re­venue trust and special funds, and loan .fund., as de'tailed on the. Estimates-in-Chief. and Supplementary Estimates already submitted.

Unlike the final Appropriation Bill passed in December last, the present Bill does not ask for any .Supply on account of the next financial year-viz., 1917-18. I beg to. move­That the Bill be now read asecond hme.

Hmr. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I do not know that we can do much to-night on this Bill beyond entering our protest, as we have alrea·dv d.one, against the excessive expen­diture 'outlined in the Estimates for this year. I have already expres~"d my opinion that the Government might well have saved at least £300.000 by confining their expendi~ur!' from consolidated revenue to the apprnpriatwn for last year which up to that time was the greatest i;, the history of Queensland.

I notice that the loan expenditure for the current vear is set down at £2,132,673, as compare·d with an expenditure for last year of about £3 000,000. and an appropriation of £2,707,000. 'rt wou!d be interesting ~ k':ow where this monev IS to come from m v1ew of the opinion e'xpressed at Premiers' con­ferences and elsewhere that it is going to b~ Yery difficult to get loan money during the

Hon. A.. G. G. H:n•Ii. ,·n.l

Appropriation [COUNCIL.] Bill, No. 3.

coming year. Although the Government are apparently spending less loan money, they seem to be going to make up the deficiency by spending nearly £1,000,000 more from trust and special funds. It is rather strange to observe that with respect to some of the industrial undertakings of the State they are proposing to spend money both from the trust and special funds and from the loan fund. For instance, for State sawmills they are asking for £3,000 from the loan fund and £46,000 from the trust and spedal funds.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: A lot of that will come back again.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Then it is proposed to spend £12,000 from the loan fund on a. State coalmine and £3,500 from trust and special funds. On State batteries they propose to spend from loan £5,000 and from trust and special funds £2,000. The Minister should explain the reason for this discrimination. These facts all go to show that the expenditure is increasing verv con­siderably, .and there is no evidence of any intention to adopt what the Premier told us was to be the watchword-namely, economy. I hope that, in spite of the fact that the Government are asking for all this extra expenditure and for a large sum for war purposes, they will reconsider their deter­mination and not spend money in the great amounts they are proposing to do according

, to their Estimates. I notice· in the trust and special fund ex­

penditure an item of £249,191 for State insur­ance. I think that under the Insurance Bill £100,000 is set aside for the creation of a State insurance fund, and that should be sufficient, seeing that the business from the start should prove remunerative. "\Ve have seen how remunerative the workers' compen­sation insurance has been; the Commissioner was able to give the Government £50,000, and they seem to have a very good asset in that. We have discussed the financial posi­tion at considerable length on several occa­sions during the last two or three mouths, and I can only reiterate tha.t I think this is the wrong time to go in for all this exces­~ive expenditure. (Hear, hear!) Any re­venue in excess of that received during last year should be reserved for the Federal Go­vernment to enable them to carry on the war. That is the most- important business at the present .time, and, if the Queensland Go­vernment increased their expenditure, it makes it all the more difficult for us to Rub­scribe money for war purposes. I notice from Press reports that the Premier seems to be impressed with the necessity for economy, and I hope he and his colleagues will reduce the expenditure very considerably. (Hear, hear!) ·

HoN. P. J. LR'AHY: I do not intend to say much on this question, because I recog­nise that, if we are to finish at the time we expect to, our eloqnence must be severely restrided. ViT e will have to go in for some­thing in the nature of tabloid speeches, and, having expressed that opinion, I must be consistent... There are a number of things in this Bill that cannot be defended, such as State hotels and sundry other items which as the auctioneers say, are t<Jo numerous' to mention. One thing I would like some infor­mation about is with respect to the time at which the public servants have to be paid.

The SECRETARY FOR JHINES: They have to be paid to-morrow.

[Hon. A. Q. G. H(t:~·thorn.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY:. Can they be paid supposing we deal with this Bill to-morrow instead of now?

'I'he SECRETARY FOR MINES : No.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: I think it only fail­to the Council that the Minister should give us that information, and then let us form our own opinion. •

The SECRETARY FOR MINES, in reply: The Bill must be passed to-night to pay the public servants, because they cannot get monev away to those in distant parts of the State· unless it is done to-morrow.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: Why was it not sent a fortnight ago?

Hon. W. STEPHENS: That is all bunkum. We have heard that for over thirty years.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: If they are to be paid before Christmas the money must go away to-morrow.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: That is th& same old gag.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: We are within a few days of Christmas, and, if the Bill is not passed to-night, they cannot be paid before Christmas.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : You could pay them as you have paid £900,000, without parli~mentary sanction.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Neither the Governor nor the Auditor-General will sign the Treasury warrants until after the Bill has been passed by this House, so that there is no use saying public servants can be paid before the Bill is passed. The Hon. Mr Hawthorn spoke about £12,000 for the Sta.te coalmine. When that money is spent the State will have a mine worth £70,000 or £80,000.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: Perhaps. The SECRETARY FOR· MINES: If we

value it in the same way as private individuals have valued coal properties round Ipswich that they have submitted to the Government, the State mine is worth, £100,000.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: You try to sell it. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I do·

not want to sell it. Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: You would not get

what it cost you. The SECRETARY FOR MINES: A

great deal of the money that has been spent there has been spent in thoroughly pros­pecting the ground with diamond drills, and we have a seam 7 or 8 feet thick in a place where the Government require coal to save hauling it 200 or 300 miles. The Hon. Mr. Fowles has had a little to do with coal­mines and he knows that it takes a good deal of money t.o equip a coalmine. At the present time we are putting down a shaft over 500 feet. Two shafts will have to be sunk, and, with machinery and equipment, it will take the whole of the £12,000, but when the money is expended the Govern~ent will have a valuable asset. The expendrture from trust and special funds is current ex­penditure, while loan expenditur£ is C<LDital expenditure. The exnenditure on State enterprises is money that will be coming· back all the time. The State butcher sho,JS are showing a profit now.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Will you get it back from the coalmine in the next; twelve months?

Appropriation [21 DECEMBER.] Bill, No. 3. 2791

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I hope to get it back within the next twelve months.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: The hopefulness of the novice!

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Gov,ernment have ooen paying "through the nose " for coal in the past, and this money is required for initial expenditure. Anyone who has had anything to do with coalmines knows that there is a good deal of initial expense before you can turn out coal for commercial purposes.

HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: The Minister has p_roba~l~· had a good deal more experi­ence m mmmg than I have, but my experi­ence has always .been on the wrong side of the ledger.

Hon. T. M. HALL: So has mine. Hon. T. C. BEIRNE : So has mine. Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: "And so say all of

us."

Hox. F. T. BRENTNALL: The mines in which I have invested money have never paid, and I do not know that the Govern­ment are likely to have more experienced. mine managers or that they will be able to make their ventures more profitable. If the Minister is going to put down two shafts, he ·is not going to do it fo'l' £12,000. Another aspect of the question is how much money has been spent ah:eady without any sanction from Parliament?'

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Hundreds of thousands of pounds.

HoN. F. T. BRE~TNALL: How much money has been spent on State public-houses and State meat shops without any parlia­mentary authority? The Government are now doing what they say no private indivi­dual should have the means of doing. They are speculating with public money. When a private individual speculates, he does it with his own money, and, if there is any loss he has to suffer; but in this case it will be' the taxpayers who will suffer. It is the monev of the people that the Government are spend­ing upon their speculative ventures at the present time. Supposing a dry time should

come upon one or two of these [8 p.m.] cattle stations we are purchasing

at a cost of thousands of pounds, what will become of the money? It is all specula tiop. Of course, if the seasons are good and the grass grows, and the cattle get fat and fit for market, some profit mav be made, but that is all speculative No' one can guarantee that we will have continued good seasons, especially in the interior of the country. These items had no business whatever to be in the Estimates. No money should be expended without nroper parlia­mentary autliority. If Parliament gives authority for the expenditure of money, then the Government are exonerated ·from blame, but everything that has been done this year has been done by the Government without parliamentary sanction. That is where the Government have made a verv serious mis­take, and they have acted unc,;nstitutionally, and then they come here and tell us what glorious ventures these are and how mightily successful they are-going to be. Nobody can tell that yet. In not one single instance in connection with these cattle stations or meat shops, or anything else, has there been a satisfactory balance-sheet produced. We should look at these things from a business

standpoint, and not from a communistic, socialistic, speculative standpoint. If the Government come out of these ventures a lot better than some of us in this Chamber have come out of some of our ventures, we will have reason to be thankful, but it will be a unique experience. Scarcely one in ten persons who he,ve put money into speculative ventures have succeeded. I had no idea of

·speaking on the matter at all, but when the Minister gets up and says over and over again that these things have been carefully considered, and all the rest of it, I felt I must say something. I do not care who con­sidered it. How many thousands of pounds have been >expended on the advice of expert engineers and surveyors, and yet nothing· has come back ? How many thousands of pounds have been expended on speculations, · on reports made by Government geologists? And th<? money has gone. No man can tell what vou are going to· ·get thousands of feet underground until he gets there. ';!'he Minister says he has taken every poss1ble precaution. You might take every precaution and yet be disappointed when you get down. The coal might not be all you expected it to be as a result of striking a favourable seam when you put down a bore.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The coal at W arra is the best coal in Queensland.

Hon. T. J. O'SHEA: No, there is better.

HoN. F. T. BRENT:NALL: I imagine the people about Ipswich would have been ~ble to show the Government what sort of mmes they were and whether an expert engineer can make an estimate of the present value of a coalmine. If a mine has opened out a magnificent seam of pure .coal, ve.ry well, ;you can take it as you find 1t, but 1f there has been nothing but a bore put down, you do not know how long it is going to hold out, and you have to put a good few bores down in an area of 100· acres in order to make sure that you have a good solid bed of coal. ·

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I have been doing that. * HoN E. \V. H. FOWLES: For «colossal impertinence there ~oul? scarcely be an:y­thing to beat the Btll m front of '-';S th1s evening. About twelve months ago th1s Go­vernrnent brought in an Appropriation Bill, rammed it t.hrough the other House, brow-. beat members of this Council, and got a cold water shock the second last day of the session. Within twenty-four ham's bf the expiration of this session we ar!J asked to vote millions of money in two m~nutes, and a childish threat is held over th1s Chamber that the public servants will not get their pav to-morrow, and that in face Df the fact, which ought to condemn this Government to oblivion for ever, that they have already spent £928,984 w_itl;10ut t~e sanction of. Par­liament. The M1mster m1ght well be s1lent. He knows that is a fact. They spent £412.158 from revenu<~ without the sanction of Par­liament; they spent £295,038 from trust funds without . the sanction of Parliament; they .spent £221,788 from loan fund without the sanction of Parliament. All they have got· so far is a ·rap mrer the knuckles from the Supreme Court. They told the Govern­ment that they had spent" £100,000 illegally, and thev misled His Excellency into signing the warrant. That ought to be the death warrant of any honest Government as far as finance is concerned. That is what is happening at the present time. Close on

Hon. E. W. H. Fowl~.]

2792 Appropriation [COUNCIL.] Bill, No. 3.

£1;000,000 has been spent without the sanc­tion of Parliament. We will show the turns which appear in this tricky Appropriation Bill that is brought before us here and which ought to shame any decent Government. No wonder the Auditor-General had to put a. red mark through a lot of transactions of this Government! Now the people of Queensland •are being bluffed, sandbagge•d. and wool pulled over their eyes with regard to this Bill, and thi~ House is to be cajoled and browbeaten into passing it because, for­sooth, they will not be able to pay the public servants their salaries. If there is one thing the Government of any State is justified in paying upon warrant it is the public servants' salaries, because that is not for future expenditure. That is for past work done, for services rendered, and any Governor of any State with half an hour's experience would always sign for public servants' salaries. The Premier has only to drive in a motor-car to Government House to-morrow morning and he will get a cheque for the public servants. Everyone knows that. The public servants have never been short of their ,money since a certain Black Thursday in Victoria, and they never will go short of their money. Now iet us look at some of the items this House is asked to pass-to be rushed through by political jugglery-now you see it and now" you don't. First of all, I notice the omissions from the Estimates. The teachers have not got a sixpence. They cannot spend £150 to put up a decent provisional school in one place­£150 for the future brains of Queensland­they have not got the money. Yet they can spend £30,000 on a State hotel. -

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: We have spent £30,000 on schools in and around BrisbanE'.

HoN. E. W. H. FOVI(LES : Exactly ; and they have refused all m creases to teachers. If the teachers were like ordinary indi­viduals they would agree to down tools. On a certain day all the teachers in Queens­land wo':'ld down tools, and the parents and the public would uphold them. As a matter of fact,' the teachers are the most sweated of any public servants ·at the present time. If an~body can organise and come along alfd. simply hammer the Government into givmg them extra pay, the Government wil1 do it--" Your most obedient servant "­but wh!'n it comes to the teachers you have to contmue on .the old pittance scale. No ba!'k to bank with thel!l. ~t is simply grind, g-rmd, and pass exammahons all the time. The Government is simplv throwing monev about. • · _ The SECRETARY FOR MINES: You are sing­!ng out now because we did not give further mm·eases. We gave automatic increases w_hich the previous Government refused to give.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Where are the automatic increases now? They have vanished.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: They have not vanished. They were paid last ,year.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : Where are they this year? Where is the elaborate scale of increases that was suggested by the Minister for Education and turned down by the Cabinet.? We see in the papers every day, "No money, shortage of funds" and all that kind of thing. Let us look 'at the messages that the Government send us. Take

[Hon. E. W. II. Fowles.

the Insurance Bill. That is before us now. The Government, having been stung by the Supre,me Court decision, came and asked the Council for £100,000 to support its insurance scheme, but that was knocked out. Then there was a ratification clause in the Insurance Bill. That W<J.S a whitewashing clause to get this House to sanction the payment of money which has b~en tllegally spent, and when we asked the Minister how much it was, 'hP said it was only £4QO or £500. The amount exactly is £815 5s. 9d. From the Department of Justice that was spPnt, with all the 0rown Law Officers to advis@ them in the matter. They could not get that passed in the Insurance Bill, and so they surreptit.iously put it in this Appro­priation Bill in order to euchre this Council. Talk about joker tricks ! This House refused to agree to it in the Insurance Bill, know­ing that the Full Court had declarerl it to be illegal.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : W P are as]j:ing the Council to sanction it.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Yes. Why does not the Government come and tell the Council what it is passing in this surrep­titious way? We did not evBD get the Bill until the Minister wa• half way through his speech. No wonder they wanted to rush it through. If hon. members will turn to cage 9 they will come across what shoul<l take l.he blue ribbon for political trickery. The second paragraph on page 9 reads as follows:-

"Department of Justice. The StatP insurance fund. To defray salaries and contingencies and other services in con­nection with the State Insurance Office, £249,191."

Hon. T. M. HALL: The Bill is not passed yet,

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Will the Minister kindly tell us what the State Insur­ance Office is? Is there any State Insurance Office?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : There will not be if you can help it

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES :, No, there will be. Is there a State Insurance Office?

Hon. B. FAHEY: It is in embryo.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Not even that. Why is this Council asked t.o pass £249,000 for something that is not in existence? Merely that this Council may be flouted with regard to the Insurance Bill, because the Full Court has said that if Parliament appropriates a sum of money for any undertaking-fish undertaking, cattle undertaking, sawmills, State buteherit'.$, pubberies, or State anything else-that is implied authority to the Government to enter on that busine•s. That is how the Government are seeking to twist the Full Court decision and use it here to flout the authority of this Council and launch on practically any kind of business they choose. There it is in black and white, on page 9-" To defray salaries in connection with the State Insurance Office." There is no State Insurance Office. We are asked to pass something for an absolutely mythical thing. Of course, that includes £100,000 that we refused to vote, and £815 which we refused to ratify and gives them something

. over to play with. As a matter of fact, even if that vote were passed, I submit it would be the duty of this Council to say that the money must be used for the purposes of the

Appropriation [21 DECEMBER.] Bill, No. 3. 2793

' workers' compensation insurance fund and •earmark it for that purpose. Otherwise, this House would be tripping into a St11te Insur­ance Office without any Insurance Act whatever. As a matter of fact, whatever they want £249,000 for one does not know, when they have the police, the clerks of petty sessionS", and the teachers of the State, who can be forced into acting as agents, when they do not need palatial buildings and when they boast of having £50,000 to spare under the workers' ·a<:cident insur<J.n<:e scheme. They merely want it to squander' it on fresh schemes. On page 10 we find another item that requires explanation. By the way, if the Minister would take a compliment, we might compliment him by saving that the Mines Department does not ~e~m to be over­flowing with money, and he seems to be fairly modest in his dem'lnds and economical and discerning in the way this money is being .spent.

ThB SECRETARY FOR MINES : The late Govern­ment gave £6,000 and £7,000 to private indi­viduals to speculate in their own mines, and I put a stop to it, but I do not suppose you 'said a word about it.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The commit­mfmts in that ·department have been two or three years ahead of the actual money the ·Government have had.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I have got to find £16,000 granted to Mount Cuthbert and ·Cloncurry, and £8,000 of that this year; I ·Cannot get out of it.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: When this message came to us by post this morning-we arB now referring to the Home Secretary's Department on p~ttge 10-there was an item "Industrial Undertaking, £30,000." This House was not to be told what it was, unless we were inquisitive Bnough to ask for the inbrraation. When that got about, they evidently thought better of -it, because here it is stripped of all its pretence-" For State Hotels, £30,000."

Hon. P. J. LEAHY: Do you call that an industrial undertaking? Is not that a misuse of words?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: At all events, I pass over that by saying that if the Govern­ment could spend £30,000 on State hotels, in ruining people. they might spend a bit more on teachers who train young Queenslanders. What is the good of putting up a hotel merely to snare the wages of the working men, to dope them with drink, and simply pick up their votes at the next election? That is all it is. Let them be doped with drink ; let the hotels be dens of iniquity, like they are in Port Darwin. I would not have anything to do with such a Judas bargaining on the part of this Government. I withdraw the word "Judas," Mr. Presiding Chairman; it is not parliamentary. But at any rate, with an " Esau" bargam. As a matter of fact, I understand that the money has already been paid, and so this House is flouted and laughed at, and we are asked to pass money that is already spent. Perhaps the Minister will let us know whether it has been paid or not. I take it that silence gives consent. At any rate, I .o,m informed that £30,000 has been paid for State hotels.

Hon. B. FAHEY: Without parliamentary sanction?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : Oh yes, that is .a trifle. Then they paid to S. All<'n and

Sons, for something at Mount Cuthbert, over £300. What have they got for that? Alien and Sons have got a cheque for it.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Because they were erecting an hotel and we had to com­pensate them.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: They paid it for a mythical goodv.:ill, or, at any rate, -a future pos~ible goodwill. They thought that they were going to construct a hotel.

Hon. F. T. BRENTNALL: How do you know they have not bought a site?

Ho~. E. W. H. FOWLES: At any rate, that has already been spent, and is part of the £937,441 already spent ~y this Govern­ment without a scrap of parliamentary sanc­tion and thev come along at half-past 8 on the 'second la~t night of_ the year _and ask us to pass all these Estimates blmdfolded­treating this Council as if it were a nursery of children and in order to browbeat them they say, ,; The publi? servants ;vill not geil their pay to-morrow If you dor: t, and yo;; will make enemies of the pu_blw serva_nts. They give precious !ittle credit to the mtel­ligence of the pubhc servants. If the Go­vernment were in earnest they would have brought in this Bill a month ago, put all their cards on the table, and let us thrash out the 'items as they should be thr.ashed out.

'We come to one or two other items that want a little explanation. Probably the ~on. Mr. Stephens might be able to shed a little light on this-" For thB purchase of butter and incidental e~penses, £80,000." Wh<>t have they got for that?

Hon A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Second-class butter.

Hon. W. SrEPHENS : They made it second class to get it out of the country.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Then there. is £200,000 for public works, much of whi9h has been spent already-on day labour. Will the Minister tell us whether t):>e Governn:ent is spending £130 every week m make-believe labour round Brisbane for the unemployed. That is the way the industries o~ the country are kept up-simply by s9eezi?g anybody who has a penny and usmg It broadc_ast round the cities wheye the votes arB. I thmk it is Oliver Wen dell Holmes who says-

•" I only ask that Fortune send A little morE' than what I spend."

That is the Government's attitude. Dealing further with the slippery subject of b,utter, on page 12 we find, " For butter consignments account. £80 000." Not a word of explana­tion to' this House. Another item is, " For. the establishment of sugar-mills under the Sugar Works Act of 1911, £150,000." And yet the Government are pa:ying at the present time 3s. a ton more at Babmda than the cane is worth to them. Who is going to foot that loss? The Sugar Cane Prices Board fixed . the price at £1 6s., but squee;ze·~ every atom _ of sugar out of the cane and It IS only worth £1 3s. a ton. There is no reserve f~n~ at Babinda, and the interest is to be capitalised for the first year and let go the second year-­that, of course. will be capitalised too. T~en there is a fish market, oold stores costmg £35,000. Are they going_ to go on or are they askin~ for £14 000 which they have been using" up to th~ present and intend. to use the other £24,000 as the shoe pmches?

Hon. E. W. H. Fowles.]

2794 Appropriat;ion [C01JNOIL.] Bill, No. 3.

Just while we are on this page, I might ask whether that £1,000 asked for in another place is on these Estimates. I think if the one thing. this Council would pass it would be that, JUst to show the utmost cordiality existing beween the Chambers.

HoN. F. T. BRENTNALL: It wiH be the same as those you have just referred to.

HoN. E'. W. H. FOWLES: That will appear in the "complimentary E'stimates." (Laughter.)

Hon. B. FAHEY: Will the hon. member say what it is for?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: Oh, £25 each for, say, forty members. That would make about £1,000.

1'he SECRETARY FOR MINES: I know that it cost me as much as £60, and I could ill­afford to lose that.

~ON. E. W. H. FOWLES: Nobody would O~Ject to that. We would have passed it wrth pleasure as a Christmas bonus if the Governmen.t had brought it in. Th~ list as sent to us m the message from the Assembly · does not agree with the list in the Bill in front of us, and it is therefore very difficult to follow. some. o~ the items. If the Minister has a hst as . It passed the Legislative Assembly, he will probably be able to answer o_ne or two questions. We find that Resolu­twn No. 73 (Lands Department) was as follows:-

" Th~t there be granted a sum not exce~dmg £30,700 for ' Miscellaneous Services.' ''

!Vhat will be included in that? Then there IS No. 124, on page 528 of the Assembly's "Votes .··and Proceedings"-" Industri<LI Undertakmg, £30,000." What is meant by

that~ The!' item 126 is £3,000 [8.30 p.m.] for mdustr~al undertakings. I do

. not know what that is for. Item 132 .rs .£35,000 fo_r another industrial under­takmg. That mrght be for sawmills but I ~m not. sure. Then item 131 is for ~nether mdustnal undertaking-perhaps that is t s~rap_ the. Mount Molloy line, but no informa~ twn rs gr ven.

Hon. W. H. CAMPBELL : You are very lucky to have that much information be caus~ for the last ten Y{iars we had ha:d n; partwul":rs . giv.en. to us in connection with Appropnatwn Brlls at all. •

The ~ECRETARY FOR MINES: Nothing has b~en pard for the Mount Molloy line you will. be as~ed to ratify an agreeme~t · but until that rs done no money will be p~id.

~ON. E. W. . H. FOWLES: These Estimates ':~'er~ gmllotined through another place at mr~mght, so there is all the m<;>re f!eed for thrs House to throw the search­hgh~ on them. I have obtained some 'infor­mah.on f;·?m the Assembly "Votes and Pro­c~edmgs, where a little more detail is grven than. in. the. Bill now before us. If the . Council, m rts generosity, agrees to consrder the matter, in all fairness we ought to hav<; . at least twelve hours to consider the posrhon,_ seeing we are asked to approve of the spendmg of several millions of pounds. We are asked to vote taxation here and surely .we ought t'? know something 'about the obJects. on whwh the money is to be spent, especrally as the Council is now looked upon as the policeman of the Government

'I'he SECRETARY FOR MINES : By yourselve~. tHan. E. W. H. Powles.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: No, by the­whole country.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : By some of the big insurance companies and gas com­panies and other exploiting companies.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: We are re-· garded by the public as the police force of the Government and as the custodians· of the public purse. These Estimates were guillotined through another place at mid­night-a most appropriate time for such a thing to be done.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: That was· always done under Liberal Governments, and you never opened your mouth about. it.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Council should be given more information when it is asked to agree to the expenditure of over· £7,000,000, £900,000 o'f which has already been spent by the Government. Is it not a farce to ask the Council to pass this Bili when the Government go on spending money in that way? If we are simply going to ratify the action of the Government in spending money without parliamentary sanction, we might as well be a rubber )>tamp. The Government, with their· majority in another place, could bludgeon the Estimates through and then expect us to pass the Appropriation Bill in five minutes. If we were to do that, we would be traitors to the best interests of the peop1e, and we would be a party to the squandering of public money if we endm·sed what the Government did without asking a single qm\~tion. We are asked, for instance. to pass over £250,000 on a purely mythical item-a State insurance fund. I sincerely trust that the Minister will see the wisdom of allowing us to consider these Estimates a little more. I see that the Commissioner for Railways has paid £1,500 in connection with the death of one person, whereas the maximum under the '\Vorkers' Compensation Act is £750, and, according to the report on the public servi~e superannuation fund. the widows of fifteen public servants only got £200 each, and they were paying intO' the fund, while in the ca,;e of employees of private individuals, who have nothing t<Y pay, £750 is paid.

Hon. W. H. CAMPBELL : What about the item of £10,000 for the Central Rabbit Board?

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The hon. mem­ber very properly draws my attention to the fact that the Government has brought in a Bill to abolish the Central Rabbit Board, and yet on the Estimates they have passed £10,000 for expenditure by that board.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : You know very well that the Central Rabbit Board is not abolished.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Bill will come before us for final revision shortly.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The Central Rabbit Board was only a consultative board. It was more ornamental than useful, and the Minister thinks he can spend the £10,000 without asking them.

HON. E. W. H. FOWLES: How can the board be useful when the Minister refused to call them together for fourteen months? And then he blames them for being useless.

Appropriation [21 DECEMBER.] Bill, No. 3. 2795-

Another item that the Minister might explain is the £100,000 that they have asked for State

·butcher shops. ' · The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The butcher

shops will show a profit. . HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES : Then why do

they want more money? The SECRETARY FOR MINES : For current

expenses during the financial year.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Rock­hampto!l shop made a loss last year of £1,700. What IS the good of having one or two butcher sh?ps in Queen street? That only means addmg 6d. tram fare to the price of the meat. It is impossible for the people to ~et cheap ·meat unless the shops are estab­lished next door. But the expenditure of £100;000 on butcher shops is ., mere trifle to a Government who deal in millions.

The SE!'JRETARY FOR MINES: You growl because there are only one or two butcher shops, and then you growl because the Government propose to establish more. You are very hard to please.

HoN. E. V\T. H. FOWLES: There are plenty of butchers doing their best to supply meat to the public, and if the Gover'-ment had not made a very curio.us deal, they could not supply meat at the price they are doing. T~e SECRETARY FOR MINES : They did it in

the mterests of the community.

H<:JN. E. W. H. FOWLES: It is never in the mterests of the community to squeeze a deal out of anyone.

Hon. F,_ T. BRENTNALL: What about the Chillagoe Railway ?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Read what Lloyd George says about exploiters in England.

HoN. E. W. H. FOWLES: The Govern­ment are the biggest exploiters 'in Queensland. They' are exploiting the taxpayers in order that they may throw money to the four points of the compass.

I;foN. W. STEPHENS : As this is a very senou' matter and wants consideration I beg to move the adjournment of the deb~te.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Before the d_ebate i_s adjourned, I ask hon. members to thmk _serwus_ly of what they are doing. If tJ:e. publ:c serviCe are not paid, the responsi­bility w11l rest on hon. members opposite. One-half of what the Hon. Mr. Fowles said was absolute claptrap. He said the Govern­ment were not giving increases to teachers. I say the. teachers are getting the same increases in salaries as the rest of the public servants. All in receipt of less than £200 are getting increases-some of them £20 and £30. The Government are not discriminating between one department and another. A tremendous song is being made about the establishment of a State hotel at Babinda. It is in the best interests of the men them­selves that that hotel is being built.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : In a prohibition area-against the law. The Government are the lawbreakers.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: It is in the interests of the men that they should not be supplied with bad grog, as they are at the present time, when there are forty or fiftv sly _grog- shanties in operation in the district. It IS also necessary that thev should be Pro­vided with good accommodation. Then, -if a

man is under the influence of liquor, he will not be served at a State hotel. In fact, he· will not get enough to bring him to that state. It is in the interests of sobriety that· the Government are taking the step. This has been a foremost plank in our platform for years, and we were returned at the last· c>lection heoouse the people wanted our plat­form put into operation.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES : They voted for cheap food, not cheap "booze."

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: We have· adYocated St<1te ·hotels for yoors, with a view to ultimate prohibition: If the hon. member is such an ardent advocate of temperance, whv did he not vote for the Bill introduced by" the Government, which would have enabled a vote to be taken, not only on 6 o'clock closing, but on the. question of total prohibition? The hon. member, with his hyprocrisy-for it is nothing else-has tried. to make capital out of this. Then the hon. member made a great song about " unfore­seen expenditure." This is not the only Government that has spent large sums on· unforeseen expenditure. When the Hon. Mr. \ Hawthorn was Treasurer in 1908-9, in one of the best seasons Queensland has had, and when there were no State enterprises, the unforeseen expenditure amounted to £131,204.

Hon. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: Yours is. £574,000, according to the Auditor-General.

The• SECRETARY FOR MINES: I have· a list of the unforeseen expenditure from 1906 to 1916. In 1910-11 when there were good seasons, a Liberal Government had an unforeseen expenditure of £314,000; in 1915-16 it was onlv £226,000-much below the unforeseen expenditure of their predecessors. If the unforeseen expenditure last year was. large, it must be remembered that it was a year of drought and that the war was on.

Hon .. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: What has that to do with the question?

Th; SECRETARY FOR MINES: It haSo a good deal to do with it. We know the war has had a big effect on this State. When the Hon. Mr. Leahy was a Minister the Government had somewhere about £284,000' unforeseen expenditure. Why did he back. up whar that G:overnment did if it is wrong· for this GoYernment to do the same?

Hon. P. ,J. LEAHY: Your party was in power for eight months that year, and you did it.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : We· were not in power for eight ,months. The money we are asking the Council to vote· here is current expenditure for the present financial year. We want the money to carry· us on until Parliament meets again.

Hon. E. W. H. FowLES: Why didn't you· bring this in a fortnight ago?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The hon. gentleman knows that it is usual to come down with an Appropriation Bill two or three days before the end of the session. I have been in Parliament a long time, and· in nine cases out of ten the Appropriation Bill has been introduced on the last night of the session. The hon. gentleman triea to· make a lot of capital out of this matter. but half his criticism was mere claptrap and: an attempt to make a case out of nothing. He has a bee in his bonnet about 6 o'clock closing, and he sees an item here for State·

Ho.•1. W, Hamilton.]

:2796 Appropria-tivn Bill, No. 3. [COUNCIL.] Wages Bill.

hotels. If hon. gentlemen like to take the onus on the,mselves, well they will have to put up with it.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: I am qmte .sure every hon. member will be prepared to take the onus in regard to an adjournment. We have the whole of to-morrow for the debate, and in the meantime the Minister can get answers to those questions so per­tinently put by the Hon. Mr. Fowles. I do not look upon his questions as claptrap. Vve -do not talk claptrap here. We are here to protect the finances of Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : You are here to put this Government into a hole if you can.

HoN. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: We are here to expose the Government's extrava­gance. Thev had a tremendous income last vear, and yet they are not satisfied with that. ·'They want another half million, and we want them to explain exactly why they want it. You cannot explain that in half an hour. It ha~ been the practice to al1ow Bills for large amounts of money to go throufh this Counoil in the past, but this Council now

-sees that it is incumbent upon it to safe­guard the public of Queensland.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The public ·servants will not thank you for it.

Ho!.. A. G. C. HAWTHORN: The public ·servants will not suffer one iota. There is not a me.mber here who, if he thought the tmblic servants would suffer, would not pass the Bill to-night. If the Bill is passed to­morrow the public servants will get their :salaries just the same. It is a justifiable request to ask that the Bill stand over until to-morrow, and in the meantime the Minis­ter can get details- of some of the items men­tioned by the Hon. Mr. Fowles. It is a >ery big responsibility for us to take, to try and check the extravagance of the present

·Government, but we want to see that the ·demands they are making are justifiabLe. I think the motion for adjournment is a very -reason~ble one.

HoN. P. J. LEAHY: Speaking strictly to the question of the adjournment, I was impressed by the state.ments made by the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn. I was .doubtful a while ago as to whether the public servants would get their salaries if we did not pass the Bill to-night, but the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn ought to know, and his statement has impressed me very much. On several occasions when we have got Appropriation Bills at the last moment we have been told that we had to deal with them or the public servants would not get their salaries. It was the same last year and tlie same now, and surely it is very easy for the Government, if they can 'find time to discuss measures of no possible ·advantage to the country, and manv of them of a positive disadvantage to the. country. to bring down the Appropriation in· time and send It to us two or three days before the salaries of the public servants become Clue, and so give us an opportunity of dis­

·toussmg the matter. At the present moment. owing to the action of the Government. there is no effective criticism on the part of the Opposition in another place; if there is an attempt the criticism has no power and no effect. That throws an additional burden upon us because the Bill bears the impress merely of one party. Seeing that the Esti­cmates are gagged through, if there is ·any eriticism at all it is by this House,

lli on. W. Hamilton.

which is now looked upon as the people's House. I would not give an insurance com­pany or anybody else rights or privileges that would interfere with the rights_ of the public, and I would not give the Govern­ment any privileges either that would ,inter­fere with the public. While I would like to see this Bill carrie.d to-night if it would interfere in any way with the public servants if we did not pass it, still, after what the Hon. Mr. Hawthorn said, I shall vote foe the adjournment of the .debate~

Question put oand passed. The resumption of the debate was made

an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

WAGES BILL.

MESSAGE FROM ASSEMBLY.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced tfie receipt from the Legislative Assembly of the following message:-

" Mr. Presiding Chairman,-" The Legislative Assembly, having had

under consideration the Legislative Coun­cil's amendments in the Wages Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

" Disagree to the amendment in clause 6, line 37, but offer to ame~d the cl~ use by inserting after the word moneys on line 37, the words ' due to or ',

" In which proposed amendmer:t t~ey invite the concurrence of the Legislative Council.

" Disagree to the amendment in clause 17-

" Because it has never been the practice in this or in other States to allow the salaries of public servants to be attache~. An effective remedy against those public servants who ·fail to meet their just obligations exists under the present Public Servants Acts.

" Disagree to the omission of clause 21, but offer to omit all the words aHer ' wages ' on page 7, line 1, to the end of the clause.

" Disagree to the amendment in clause 25 (now 23)-

" Because it would be unfair to com­pel workers to accept cheques in pay­ment of wages against their will.

" Disagree to the omission of clause 28-

" Because this clause will be necessary for the effective administration of· the Act.

" Disagr.ee to the amendment in clause 29 (now 26), subclause (1), paragraph (e)-

" Because this amendment would have the effect of destroying that part of the Bill prohibiting the truck system in its worst form.

" Disa,:;ree to the amendment in sub­clause (2) (a) of the same clause for a similar reason.

"_Disagree to the amendments in clause 30 (now 27)-

" Because the penalty as provided in the Bill is sufficient for the purpose.

" Agree to the amendment in clause 38 (now 36), provided that the Legis­lative Council agree to substitute for the words proposed to be omitted the words ' and by such rules of ·court provision may be made for carrying into effect

ln8urance Bill. [21 DE.CElllBE.R] Regulation of Sugar Etc., Bill. 2797

the objects of this Act. By such rules the limit m amount o'f any costs recover­able in any such proceedings may be fixed'.

" In which proposed amendment they invite the concurrence of the Legislative Council ; and

" Agree to the other amendments in the Bill.

"W. McCOJtMACK, "Speaker.

" Legislative Assembly Chamber·, "Brisbane, 19th December, 1916."

The consideration of the message was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

CITY OF BRISBANE IMPROVEMENT BILL.

MESSAGE FROM AssE~IBLY. The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced

the receipt of a message from the Assembly agreeing to the Councifs amendments in this Bill.

RABBIT ACT AMENDMENT BILL. MESSAGE FROM ASSEMBLY.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced the receipt of a message from the Legis­lative Assembly intimating that they insisted on their disagreement to the insertion of new cl a uses 4 and 5, for the reasons pre­viously assigned.

The consideration of the message was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

FISH SUPPLY BILL. MESSAGE FROM ASSEMBLY, No. 4.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced the receipt from the Assembly of the follow­ing message :-

" Mr. Presiding Chairman,-" The Legislative Assembly, having

had und~r c<_msideration the message of the Legislative Council of date 15th December, relative to the Fish Supply Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

" Agree to the offer of the Legislative Council to insert after the word ' licensee ' where it first occurs the words ' or to prejudice the lessee or licensee in his right and title tc or interest in any lease or licensed ovster bank held by him ' in lieu of the words previously proposed by the Legislative Assembly.

" W. McCoRMACK, "Speaker.

"Legislative Assembly Chamber, "Brisbane, 19th December, 1916."

[9 p.m.]

INSURANCE BILL. MESSAG:(l FROM ASSEMBLY.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced the receipt of a message 1from the Assembly intimating that they agreed to some of the Council's amendments in the Insurance Bill, disagreed to others, and offered certain modifications of amendments.

The consideration of the message was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

JOINT COMMITTEES. CONTINUATION DURING RECESS,

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN announced the receipt from the Assembly of a message concurring in the Council's resolution pro­viding for the continuance of the functions of the Joint Committees on the Parlia­mentary Library, Refreshment-rooms, and; Buildings, during the recess.

,REGULATION OF SUGAR CANE PRICES ACT AMENDMENT

BILL. PRESENTATION OF REPORT OF SELECT

COMMITTEE. HoN. C. F. NIELSON presented the report

of the Seleet Committee on this Bill, and moved-That the report be printed.

Question put and passed.

ADOPTION OF REPORT.

Hm;". C. F. NIELSON: With the per­mission of hon. members, I desire to move, without notice-That the report of the Select Committee on the Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act Amendment Bill be adopted.

The PRESIDING CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish of the Council that the motion be moved without notice?

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HoN. C. F. NIELSON: The subject-matter

of this report is very important and intricate. It is unfortunate that the matter has come to this House at such a late Btage of the session. Howeve1·, we were not in command of the business. It will be remembered that on 29th November I moved for the appointment of a Select Committee. and the motion was car­ried. It will also be remembered that a day or so afterwards a protest was sent to this House by a gentleman na.med Dun worth; I think' it reached the Minister on 1st Decem­ber. It was brought under my notice the next day at Bundaberg, and I immediately wired to this gentleman at Mackay, and invited him to come and give evidence before the Select Committee. I heard nothing from him in reply to that invitation, but I am aware that this gentle!Jlan was in Brisbane on Saturday, Sunday, .and Monday last, and I have been told that he was here on Tues­day last while the Select Committee was sit­ting. However, he did not see fit to come and lay his views before us.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : Because they were embodied in the Bill, and he had nothing to add to it.

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: He told me by telegram that most of his views were em­bodied in the Bill, thereby inferring that some were not, and he did not come and tell us which were not embodied in the Bill.

It is regrettable that the important subject of the sugar industry, and the important Bill which is novv before us should have been left to such a late hour o£ the session.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I introduced ;.t three or four weeks ago. If it is late, the hon. gentleman himself is responsible for it.

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: I am not casting any reflection on the hon. gentleman; I am simply pointing out that it is a pity that it comes before us so late, because the Select

Hon. C. F. Nielson.]

:2798 · 'Regulation of Sugar Cane [COUNCIL.] Prices Act Amendment Bill.

Committee recognised its importance. They recognised the necessity for getting informa· tion on the subject, and they were prevented from getting more informat!on, owing_ to the lateness of the hour. As IS was, Witnesses came from the J ohnstone River, from the Herbert River district, the Mackay district, the Isis district and the Bundaberg district. There were oth~rs who would have come but were unable to do t.o owing to the disloca· "tion o£ the steamer service. However, a perusal of the evidence will convince hon. members that the witnesses who came were men who are making their living in the industry men of long experience in the in­<iustry, ~en who have assisted in the work­ing of the existing Act, men who were able to make suggestions, whether th_ey be g?od, bad, OJ: indifferent from our pomt of view. They were men who intelligently understood their subject and were able to tell the Com­mittee how far the sugar-growers were affected by this legislation. We had, in !?ar­ticular witnesses who were representatives of central mills. The Isis Central Mill was represented by a very capable and intelli­gent witness. and in an appendix will be found a letter written by the chairman of the Isis Central Mill and its suppliers. \Ye had the chairman of the Plane Creek Central Mill, Mr. Innes, and another gentleman from the Racecourse Central Mill at Mackay, Mr. McDonald. vV e had communications from the Babinda growers and several others. One of the features of the recommendations of the Committee, which are set out in the suggested amendments to this Bill, is that all central mills should be taken out of the operation of the Act. The Committee care­fully considered all the evidence and came to the conclusion that, in view of the fact that central mills pay no dividends to the share­holders, but that, after paying the Treasurer his annual instalment of interest and redemp­tion-that is those who do pay it-after pay­ing the cost of working the mill and making reasonable provision for annual overhaul and depreciation, what is left from the amount received for raw sugar is divided among the suppliers of cane accor.ding· to the tonnage each one has supplied. As sensible men we could see no reason whatever why these mills should be burdene·d with the expense of submitting to an annual assess­ment for the purpose of providing a board to decide how much should be paid by them for cane when they pay away all they get in any case. The amendment we suggest will show that one of the recommendations of the .Committee is that all central mill suppliers and central milis shall be outside of the operations of the Act. \V e know from the · Auditor-General's . report and from other evidence that we have had submitted to us in this Chamber that the result of the opera­tions of the Sugar Cane Prices Board has been to force some of these mills to pay more for cane than they could afford to pay. We have the spectacle to-day that Babinda-one of the latest central mills erected-under an award made eo recently as July last is forced to pay a higher price for cane than the cane has proved to be worth. The advance price at Babinda was fixed ·at £1 Ss. per ton on delivery, and I un<Jerstand that up till the end of last week the average value per ton of cane delivered to the mill was £1 Os. ·6d. Then we have the spectacle of the Bauple Central Mill-a mill which is managed by the Government-losing 2s. S~d. on every ton

[Hon. C. F. Nielson.

of cane they handled during last season, and we know that this season the loss per ton of cane at this mill will be greater than last vear Th&t is well known to the general man~ger of the Central Sugar Bure.au <:nd the Treasury. It means that mo~ey IS be111g paid out of the public revenue 111 m;der to pay the suppliem of cane to such mills the amount that has been fixed by the Central Cane Prices Board.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : That is unfore· seen expenditure.

[9.30 p.m.] HoN. C. F. NIELSON: It is no~ unfore­

seen expenditm·e because it was pmnted out that that woulcl be the inevitable result. Some other day I ,may discuss some of the results of the operations of the Central C<:ne Prices Board, but I may say now, speak111g as an individual and not on behalf ~f the Sele.'t Committee, that I told the chanman of the Central Cane Prices Bo3:rd . recently as a matter of courtesy that I mtended to st.ate that I am firmly convinced that, _if Acting Judge Dic!rson does no~ succeed . 111 ruining the sugar mdustry by his award, the svstem of Central Cane Prices Board will do il:. That is a very strong thing: to say, but we are faced with the fact that m eve':y su~ar district in· Queensland the industry Is gomg down down down. Everywhere you look vou ;ee abs~lute instability. and unr_est in the industry. I do not believe that m any sugar district in Queensland a farme~ now could get within 30 per cent. of the pr1C~ for his farm that he could have got two years ago. In the Bundaberg district you can s~e a mill that has not worked at all this seaRon-never turned a wheel. There are two mills in the Is is district that have not turned a ''rheel this year, and, unfortu­nately, I am convinced that I could na:ne a mill that will never turn a wh_eel agam. \V e know that the Treasurer hims~lf h:>s publicly stated that the K erang M;ll :Will be closed. They have had eommumcatwns forwards and backwards fro,m tJ;e Treasurer to some Northern parts suggestmg that tJ;e Bauple Mill should be closed and d;s­mantlcd and shifted to some Northern dis­trict. This is a Government. mill, and the same thing has even been hmted about the Gin Gin Central Mill. Fortunately for the Gin Gin Central Mill they came to a mutual agreement in February last, and they accepted a price for their cane f11U<;h less than that paid by any other mill ~n the southern district. 'I'he farmers saw they had better take the price offered, because, if they got an award, the mill would not be able to pay it and would have to stop,. I und!"r­stand that, notwithstanding t~e lo:v pr;ce they agreed to take at the. Gm _Gm Mill, the mill will show a loss this yea~. There was a communication from the Babmda sup­pliers. and we had the evidence of .the representatives from the J ohnstone River and from the Herbert River and communi­cations ' by wire suggesting ~hat if tJ;e majority of the growers belongmg to a mill adop~ed a scheme of payment t};at that should bind the whole of the suppliers and no board should be required. The corn· mittee have adopted that suggestion. One of the chief complaints. that we had from thoughtful witnesses-men who ha_ve been twenty or thirty yea~s ca~e. gr<?W111g-v.:as with regard to the mstab1hty 111 the 111-dustrv owino· to the fact that the Central Board could" not make an award for more than one year, and that the existing Act had

Regulation of Sugar Cane [21 DECEMBER.] Prices Act Amendment Bill. -2799

.,-,ancelled all agreements. One witness told us that out of 210 growers in the Ayr dis­

rtrict 190 had recently signed an agreement Jor three or five years with the mill in the hope that some legislation would be brought

- "in to allow that agreement to hold good. "Those experienced in sugar districts will know .the benefit of an agreement extending over three or five years. Sugar is not like an

-ordinary annual crop, which is· sown one year and reaped in the same year. Sugar is

:a crop that occupi<'s the land on an average for three yE'ar~. It is a mop that is very -expensive to grow. Even if the land is cleared we were told that it would cost up to £20 an acre to get it put under cane. The growers also told us that since the Cane Prices Act ca,me into operation they could get no financial assistance from any financial institution in their district, and. from their own point of view, they did not want to

·take the risk of going on to new land unless they had an assured market for a fixed term, as then they would know whether it was safe or otherwise to go into the industry. 'That recommendation was adopted by the committee also, and the committee thought, after listening to a great deal of evidence that a grower should have some qualification. We decided that the qualification should be what might be termed a living area of land, and we decided and recommend by way of amendment that the area should be at least 20 acres, or that a grower should supply at least 200 tons of cane to the mill. The Bill provided also for· chemical control at all mills in Queensland. The committee got evidence and were personally aware of ·the existence of a number of yery small mills in Queensland which do not crush, in many years, more than 1.200 to 2,000 tons;

·mills which never had chemical control of any !<ind and which never employed any -('hemrst, and there are many mills in Queens­land to-day that have never employed chemists. The committee felt that it would be perfectly impossible, from a business point of view. for a mill with a supply of onlv a couple of thousand tons of cane in the season to employ a chemist. If we figure it out. we find that it would mean a tax of nothing less than 1s. per ton of cane, and then if a cheek chemist were put into that das> of mill his salary would mean another 1s. per ton of cane tax, and it would all have to co,me out of the growers' pockets. "IN" had the evidence of a partner in one of thr·>e small mills which had just completed the eeason after having- crushed 1,200 tons of cane. I need not point out the absurdity of compelling a mill of that size to engage

·a chemist, to fit up a laboratory and have a check chemist loaded on to it. ' At the verv minimum on a crushing of 1,200 tons it would mean a tax of 2s. 6d. a ton, all of which would havP to come out of the growers' pockets. Then, in addition, the committee

"had evidence that some of theso mills were established in little out of the way pockets whcre no kind of agriculture would paY, and if these miUs were shut up the whole of

·the di.,trict would go down. It would not pav to I<O in for mixed farming in those out of the way places, as no crop gives the sarne return as sugar-C'ane, even with the low price these little mills can afford to pay. The 11rovision in the Bill g-iving- the board iurisd]d-lnn O\"f'.r evf'rv mill in OueenP1anrl, ~vheth·'r th("' "A' for- a'1 altemtion of tho Act nr not did not commend itself to the

committee. We felt that no judge or chairman or any other authority should have any right to interfere with people who did not ask to be interfered with, merely because one person who might be discon­tented made a complaint, The committee recommended that that provision should be eliminated. There are many other similar provisions that the committee looked upon as harassing or ao inquisitorial and unoneces­sarily so, and indeed the grower-witnesses objected most strongly to the inspection of their books by members of local boards or by persons deputed by the chairman of the Central Board. As one witness put it : \Vhy should a far,m<>r have to disclose his position to his neighbour? They were most emphatically against any inquisitorial busi­ness of any kind. The provision in the Bill also t-hat two members of the Central Board should be debarred from Yoting .did not commend itself to the committee. The Centr<il Board is composed of a District Court judge as chairman, a representative of the growers, a representative of the mill­owners, an expert chemist, and an expert accountant, t-he latter being an officer of the Audit Department. It was proposed to take a \'fay from the chemist and accountant a vote on the Central Board. This did not com­mend itself to any witness out _of the four­teen that were exa.mined, and it certainly did not commend itself to the committee, becaus~ we were satisfied that it is reallv only expert' who should have a vote. ·I understand the chemi,t on the Central Board, Mr. O'Brien, ha~ had a very large experience as a mill chemist and mill manager, .and the Audit Department man has had experi­ence in auditing central mill accounts and !mow,; the results of the season's workings. We felt that if anybody should have a vote at all it ought to be the men who had expert knowkdge, and therefore, we recommend that that provision which sought to take a way the vote of the expert should be eliminated from the Bill. There is also to be found in the Bill a general clause vali­dating _everything that has be<>n done, every regulatiOn that has been made, and every award that has been ,made, some of which we know, at the present time, are before the court. The committee do not feel disposed to allow ma.tters that are at present sub judice to be validated by a Bill brought into this CounciL We do not feel disposed to recommend that this Council should be a party to taking a way the functions of th<:' courts, and therefore an amendment will be found on that clause also_

Many oth<>r minor amendments were sug­gested, some of which, of course, are only consequential. I do not wish to speak at any great length on this matter. because I feel, from a conversation I have had with a gentleman from another place, that our sug­gestions will not find favour in another quar­ter. I merely wish to say that I claim I was perfectly justified in moving for. the appoint­ment of a Select Committee,' seeing that fourteen men from var!ous parts of Queens­land, in a hurry and at this time of the year when most men do not care to leave home, thought fit to come to Brisbane.. and others took an interest in the matter and volun­teered to come, but were debarred through no fault of their own, being unable to get a steamer, in addition to which there is the interest which the Bill created in the sugar

Hon. G. F. Nielson.]

2800 Regulatwn of Sugar Cane [COUNCIL.] Prices Act Amendment Bill.

i~dustry. In conclusion, I only wish to men­twn to hon. members that the report of the committee is unanimous.

HoNOURABLE MEBIBERS: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Before we ·adopt the report, I should like to have a few words. It seems a strange thing that this· Bill, which was brought in at the in­stigation of the growers--

Hon. C. F. NIELSON: That is not so. It was only one section.

'I'he SECRETARY FOR MINES: It was certainly not those under the thumb of the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, I will admit, but the growers pretty well through­out many of the principal districts asked for this Bill. The committee was appointed at the instance of the Australian Sugar Pro­ducers' Association, who are not growers at <ill, but millers.

Hon. A. GIBBON: That is not so.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: There are three conflicting interests in the industry -the grower, the miller, .and the refiner-and the interests of the grower and the miller always conflict. It is a strange thing that I have received a lot of telegrams in addi­tion to communications l'eceived by the· Minister, all of which are absolutely un­solicited. Most of the others referred to by the hon. member have been solicited. We know that telegrams were sent to all the districts asking that certain parties should come down.

Hon. '1'. M. HALL : Why did they not come to give evidence?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: One party said, "I could give evidence, but all that the growers want is embodied in the BilL" I shall read one of the telegrams received by the Minister from Messrs. Wol­cox and McGowan, growers' representatives on the Goondi ·cane Prices Board, dated 9th December, 1916:-

"Innisfail. "Lennon,

"Parliament, House, Q_

" Messrs. Stevenson and Job who are to give evidence before your Select Com­mitt'le on amending Cane Prices Act are not representative of majority of growers of this district and growers resent not being given an opportunity to select representatives."

Those men were wired to and asked-two special men. I •do not know whether they were under the thumb of certain parties.

Hon. C .. F. NIELSON: They wired and asked to come.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: Then there" is also this letter-" ]: .ONEER . RIVER FARMERS AND GRAZIERS'

AssociATION, LIMITED. "Sydney street, Mackay,

"4th December, 1916. "Dear sir,-With reference to the

appointment of a Select Committee by the Legislative Council to consider and take evidence from growers on the Cane Prices Amending Bill passed by your Assembly-

" Our executive have carefully con­sidered this matter and consider no good

Jlon. G. F. Nielson.

purpose can be served by taking evidence in the manner suggested, and I am wiring you as follows:- '

"Re Select Committee appointed by Legislative Council to take evidence amending Cane Prices Bill. Amend­ments passed by Legislative Assembly were carefully considered by all our· branches and has our endorsement. We consi.der no good purpose can be· served by taking evidence from small and irresponsible bod:y of growers."

{Laughter.) The men who came down were men who came rlown in the interests of the millers. The millers got them sent down.

"This wire I now confirm. I beg to point out that our association now num­bers 965 financial members, and as there are some thousand odd growers in the Mackay district, it is difficult to under­otand that statement made by the Hon. C. F. Nielsen as reported in the local Pres8, viz.-

" That he had received numerous. communic,a,tions from Mackay, etc."

" The amendments sent to you from our association were carefully considered by all our branches, and were arived at after one year's experience with the original Act.

"We note with satisfaction that a large number of the amendments sent by us. are embodied in the amending Bill, and which we consider a great improvement on the original measur<:. We note, from your wire of the 1st instant, that the Bill, as amended; will have your strenu­ous support, which is very satisfactory to us, and we trust that the Bill, as amended, will be placed on the statute­book, and be given another year's trial."

" I have the honour to be, "Sir,

"Your obedient servant, " H. E. TURNER, President.

" To the Hon. W. Lennon, " Minister for Agriculture and Stock ..

" Brisbane.}'

I have a number of others here, but this is a. copy of a letter from Mr. John R. Wrench, secretary of the Isis Primary Producers and Cane Growers' Association. Childers-

" Hon. sir,-I have the honour, by direction of this Executive, to inform yon we have just heard that evidence has been given before the Select Committee on the Cane Prices Bill Amendment Act; that growers have been selected from here by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company from a few of the select growers unknown to this association and the bulk of the growers here, and that further evidence is to be received from growers repre­senting the Isis Central Mill, both of whom are entirely opposed to the Cane Prices Bill, and it is a move in the dark as far as we (this association) is con­cerned_

" Will there be an opportunity for us to be heard before the Select Committee? Kindly let me know.

"The petition that went down we presume in connection with the same thing was unknown to us. It was got

Regulation of Sugar Cane [21 DECEMBER.] PriceB Act Amendment Bill. 2801

up by the Colonial Sugar Refining Com­pany, and only those growers favouring the views of the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, and possibly all the tenants, have, a« far as we know, been asked to sign it.

''I have, etc., "JOHN R. WRENCH."

Hon. C. F. NIELSON: What was the date of that?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: The 18th December, 1916. This is another I received-

" According Press reports we note amendment moved by Hon. C. F. Niel­sen relative Cane Prices Amending Bill favouring appointment of Select Com­mittee for taking evidence from growers in this and other districts. The Pioneer Farmers' and Graziers' Association con­sisting of 965 financial members out of S<?me. thousand odd growers in Mackay d1strrct suggested amendments ·as pro­posed amending Bill. We have not com­municated with Mr. Nielsen on this matter, and challenge his statement that body Mackay farmers· have done so. We strongly protest against any alterations to amending Bill, and furthermore, • we consider that Mr. ~ielson having acted as legal representative for millers before Central Board should not be on such Select Committee withou't growers' nominee being present likewise."

It is hard ·for a person not in the swim. to know who are to be believed-whether we are to believe the millers or the growers. This Bill was brought in in the interests of the· growers, at the invitation of the growers, and anything embodied in it was suggested to the Minister by them. Now it is being altered in the interests of the millers, not in the interests of the growers.

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: No.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: There is no doubt that the millers are at the bottom of this. The Australian Sugar Producers' A9sociation are not growers at all. They are a millers' association. If this Bill is satisfactory to the growers and they are not allowed to have it, the Government will not be to blame, somebody else will have to take the blame, because the Minister has intro­duced the Bill as suggested by them, and if it is not passed in that form they cannot blame the Minister.

. HoN. A. H. PARNELL: All I wish to say 1s that a few days ago the Minister read a telegram from Mr. P. D. Dunworth of Mackay, stating that the committee should not be formed and that he represented a large number of growers in Mackay. It is a strange thing that when the committee was appointed and met, and when he was down in Brisbane all the time we were sitting, and was asked personally to attend and give evidence, he did not come. Could you take that man's word for anything?

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : He is the secre­tary of a big organisation.

HoN. A. H. PARNELL: He protested against the committee sitting, and although he was in Brisbane and everv one of the members would have liked "to have his evidence, ·he did not come along. Fourteen witnesses were examined. a majority of them ~>;rowers, and many of them small growers. I do not pretend to understand the sugar

1916-SI

question. I simply went there to learn, but I have come to this conclusion-that the less the Government harass that industry the better. (Hear, hear!)

The SECRETARY FOR MINES : The Govern· ment are trying to assist it.

HoN. A. H. P ARNELL: They are not assisting it. That industry is under a cloud, and the Government are trying to crush it. -I will say that. There is not a grower-and we examined many of them, some very small men-who can pay the rates in the Dickson Award, and that industry, the second in the State, is suffering accordingly, and it is time this Council tried to assist it. I think we should. Though it is a very late hour I should like to be here to cast my vote if a division is taken.

HoN. W. S'l'EPHENS: I was two years running a sugar mill, and I cannot believe that any Government would introduce such a Bill as the present measure, after hearing the evidence given before that committee. The Act has been a failure all through. There are a lot of conflicting interests, and the fact that the amendments this year are larger than the Act after a year's trial, shows that it is a failure. There are a lot of co-operative associations, but they get no dividend out of their mills. They have to pay for the maintenance and working of the mills, and the farmers are to get all the money. Men told us that they had to close co-operative mills, and could not harvest cane because it would not pay, and that the cane would rot and have to be burnt, and there would be so much trash which will be wasted. The Cane .Prices Board tells one mill that they have to pay £1 5s., and the chemist comes along and says that it takes so many tons to make a ton of sugar, and if they pay more than £1 they will lose money. Then those co-operative millowners have gone to the Government to see if they can get an extension of time, but the Government say, " No, if you do not pay we will take the mill from you." They say, "We have been making our payments, but we cannot afford to pay this loss, and we shall have to let the cane rot, and the mill close." That is nonsense. The committee were quite willing to meet the Minister and see if they could come to terms, but the Minister " poo­poohed " the idea of our knowing anything about it. There is one provision in the Bill providing that if 10 per cent. of the growers request it, an award can be reopened, and we propose to alter that to provide that if a majority want it they can have it, but if a majority do not, they can make their own private arrangements with the mill. We have made it democratic and absolutely optional, and we have taken out the co-opera­tive mills, so that they can manage their own business. I am quite sure that the Bill is 100 per cent. better, or would be if the report were adopted. I am satisfied of that from my own business experience anQ my knowledge of the sugar business. ~

HoN. C. F. NIELSON: Just one word in reply to the Minister. There are some 4,01}0 canegrowers in Queensland, and Mr. Dun·

worth does not repr.esent 25 [10 p.m.] pei- cent. of that number. As

to Mr. Wrench, the Hon. Mr. Fahey asked me on Wednesday last on be­half of Mr. Wrench, whether he, or some repres-entative of his, could come and give evidence, and I told the hon. member that the Select Committee would sit on Fridey

Hon. C. F. Nielson.]

2802 Sugar Experiment, Etc., Bill. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment.

of last week and Tuesd~y of t!J.is week. The Hon. Mr. Fahey told me that he wrote immediately to Mr. Wrench, so that th<tL gentleman has no grievance at a!!.

Question-That the report of the Select Committee be adopted-put and passed.

' SECOND READING. Question-That the Bill be now read a

second time-put and passed. The committal of the Bill was made an

Order of the Day for to-morrow.

SUGAR EXPERIMENT STATIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

DISCHARGE OF ORDER FOR THIRD READING.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved­" That the Order of the Day for the

third reading of the. Bill be discharged." Question put and passed.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES moved-" That the Bill be recommitted for the

purpose of further considering clause 5 and of adding new clauses t<> follow clause 6."

Question put and passed.

RECOMMITTAL. (Hon. lV. Stephens in the chair.}

Or. clause 5-" Grub-infested areas"­HON. 0. F. 'NIELSON moved the omis­

sion, on hne 14, of the words " less than one penny," with a view to inserting the words "more than one halfpenny."

Amendment agreed to. HoN. 0. F. NIELSON moved the omis­

sion of subclause (4), as follows-" No endowment as in section 9 of

this Act is provided shall be payable on any assessment levied under this sec­tion.''

Amendment agreed to. On the motion of HoN. 0. F. NIELSON,

the following new clauses were inserted to . follow clause 6-

" 7. Local boards may be constituted by the Minister in respect of any grub­infested ar-ea.

" Such local boards shall be consti­tuted by proclamation in the ' Gazette.'

" Every local board shall consi~t of three members, two of whom shall form a quorum at any meeting of the local board.

"No person shall become or remain a member of the local board who is n<.t or was not within twelve months next pre­ceding a canegrower within ·such grub­infested area.

" The members of the local board shall be elected by the millowners and cane­growers within such grub-infested area.

" Every such millowner and cane­grower shall, for the purpose of such election, have one vote.

" Every local board shall be e1ected for a period not exceeding two years, as may be fixed in the proclamation.

" The time and mode of election of the ·members of a local board, and the filling of any vacancy therein, shall be such as shall be fixed by the regulations.

[Hon. C. F. Nielson.

" 8. The powers and duties of a local board shall be to take such steps within its ar-ea .for the suppression and preven­tion of pests in sugar-cane, and the doing of any other acts or things which may be deemed necessary or expedient in that be ha If.

" The local board shall decide what moneys are required by it for the pur­poses aforesaid, and shall signify its decision to the Minister.

" Proper books of account showing all moneys received and expended shall be kept by the local board, and such books of account shall be open and available at all times for the inspection of any person appointed in that behalf by the Minister.

" The local board shall keep a record or minutes of the proceedings of the board, and such records shall be signed at the end of every meeting by every member present thereat.

"9. (1.) Upon the receipt by the Min­ister of notice of a decision by the local board requiring any moneys under the preceding section, he shall cause an assessment to be made and levied in

·addition to the assessments referred to in section 7 of 'the principal Act and in section 5 of this Act.

"(2.) The amount of the assessment to be made and levied under this section shall not exceed two pence and a half­pennv on every ton of sugar-cane re­ceived at any sugar-works within a grub­infested area.

"(3.) No endowment as in section 9 of the principal Act is provided shall be payable on any assessment levied under this section.

"10. Upon receipt by the Minister of the moneys being the assessment to be made and levied under section 8 hereof, he shall cause such moneys to be trans­mfited to the local board to be used by it in carrying out the powers and duties vested in it.

The Council resumed. The AcTING CHAIR­)IA"' reported the Bill with amendments, and the report was adopted .

THIRD READING.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR MINES, the Bill was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be returned to the Assembly by message in the usual form.

.SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I beg to mo~·e-That the Council, at its rising, do adjourn until 10 o'clock to-morrow morn­ing. That means half-past 10 o'clock.

Question put and passed.

ADJOURNMENT.

The SECRETARY FOR MINES: I beg to move-That this Council do now adjourn. The first business to-morrow will be the Appropriation Bill, to be followed by the Regulation of Sugar Cane Prices Act Amend­ment Bill, and then the Chillagoe and Ethe­ridge Railways Purchase Bill.

Question put and passed. The Council adjourned at seventeen minutes

past 10 o'clock.