Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 1877

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1078 Ad;jmtrnment. [.ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

1Vednesday, 26 September, 1877.

Quest.ion.-Adjournment.-l!nfnrnished Returns.-Xa­tiYe Birds Protection llill.-Supply-resnn-·ption of committee.-Southern and 1Yestern Railway.--Rea.l Property Bill-committee.

The SPEAKER took the chair at hal£-rast three o'clock.

QUESTION.

JYir. BAILEY, pursuant to notice, asked the Premier-

Has he any objection to lay on the table of the House any corresp ndence in his possession referring to the introduction of immigrants from the United States ?

The P1m::uiER (Mr. Douglas) replied,­There is no objection to lay the papers asked

for by the honourable member on the table.

ADJOURN}IENT.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that he wished to bring a matter before the Colonial Secre­tary which had come to his knowledge that clay; it was the case of a party who had been charged with cattle-stealing, and who was brought into Ipswich on Sunday evening last, and on the same evening was let out on bail without the case being heard in any way. He wished to know from the honourable gentleman whether it was customary for magistrates to grant bail immediately on a prisoner being brought into a lock-up, and b.,•fore the case was heard ? If it was done, it would enable a prisoner to enter into negotiations by which he might be able to get out of any difficulty in which he was placed. The police had had a groat deal of trouble to bring in the man in that par­ticular mtRe, and bdore they had an oppor­tunity of bringing their evidence to bPar against him he was let out on bail. It was difficult enough to get convictions in the ordinary way against cattle-stC'alers, with­out magistrtttes stepping out of the usual course, and exercising their privileges in the manner referred to. He begged to move, that the House do now adjourn.

The CoLO::'i'IAL SECRE'rARY (Mr. Miles) said that he had heard nothing of the case whatever, but he supposed that if the prisoner was brought into the lock-up on the Sunday evening the police magistrate might have allowed bail till the next day. He would, however, inquire into the sub­ject. He would mentwn, that the mode adopted by the honourable member, of bringing forward such matters, was not at all a convenient onC', because if notire had been given of thC' question he should have been able to come prepared with all the necessary information.

Mr. vV ALSH said he would take the oppor­tunity afforded by the present motion of calling the attention of the Colonial Trea-

surer to a notification which had appeared in one of the papers, signed by a Govern­mC'nt official-Mr. D'Orsay, he believed,­that no goods would be allowed to cross the Border into New South VI~ ales until they had paid duty. That, he considered, was a most extraordinary arrangement ; and he should like to know by whose authority such an announcement had been made?

The CoLOYIAL TREASURER (Mr. Diekson) regretted that the honourable member could not produce the paper, so that he might be in a better position to reply to his question. He could only say there had been no change in the eustoms regu­lations recently, and that since the hon­ourable member had directed his attention to the matter, he would make further inquiries. Mr. D'Orsay was the inspector of the Border customs patrol, and no doubt the announcement was signed by him.

Mr. MclLwRAITH said that he had seen such an advertisement scortJs of times him­self, and he thought it was a very propt>r one.

Mr. TnoMPso::-. said, in rderence to the case mentioned by the honourable member for Stanley, that a magistrate had full power to admit a prisoner to bail even although it happened to be on a Sunday.

Mr. PETTIGREW said that whatever might be the law on the subject, he con­sider,~d the practice was bad in principle', and trusted that it would not be follo'll·ed in future. He had no hesitation in stating that if a lawyer had not happened to ask the favour it would not have been granted.

Mr. IvoRY wished to call attmtion to a circumstance which occurred in Committee of Supply on the previous evening. Honour­able members were then told by the Minister for \V orks that there were no increases in connection with the Mining Department ; since then, however, he (JYfr. Ivory) had found that thC're was an increase. They were also told that there was only one new warden appointed, whereas it turned out that there were two. He was told also that the new appointmC'nt was that of Mr. Hodgkinson, and one would suppose that the most recent appointnwnt would come in at the lowest salary; instead of that, however, l\fr. Hodgkinson entered the ser­vice at a salary of £400, whilst the three other wardens received only £350.

l\fr. FooTE said, in reference to the prar­tice of admitting to bail persons brougM into the lock-up on a Sunrlay, before they appeared brfore a bench, although such a course might possibly be legal, it was very bad. It was po~sible that a prisoner, if in a position to do so, would go out and make terms with individuals, and thu.s avoid being prosecuted; although in this case, knowing the prosecutor, he was satis­fied that no such thing eoulcl happen.

Adjournment. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Unfurnished Returns. 1079

Mr. BAILEY would put the caRe of an innocent man being charged with cattle­stealing, and taken for a long distance to a township on a Sunday, then locked up until Monday, and then perhaps remanded for a week. Under such circumstances a man would be disgraced for ever afterwards ; whereas the fact of his having being ad­mitted to bail relieved him from any disgrace that would otherwise attach to him. A charge of cattle-stealing frequently proved to be merely a case of disputed property; and he thought, therefore, that magistrates should be able to exercise a discretion in admitting persons to bail in such caRes.

The MINISTER FOR \VoRKs (Mr. Thorn), in answer to the hoNourable member :for the Burnett, said that Mr. Hodgkinson was one of two wardens who received £400 a-year, whilst the others were sub-wardens under Mr. Sclheim. That accounted for the discrepancies in the salary.

Mr. JYL<~.cRossAN asked who the other "lmrden was who received £400 a-year?

The J\IrNISTER J<'oR \VoRKs : Mr. Hill. Mr. 1L-!.CROSSAN said that it was evident

that Mr. :i\Iowbray, who had sole chargP of a goldfield, received only £850, whilst Mr. Hodgkinson, who was only recently appoin­ted, was placed over his head. Mr. JYiow­bray was one o£ the best wardens on the goldfields, and had full charge, whilst Mr. Hodgkinson had comparatively no charge ; so that the whole thing was disgraceful.

Mr. MoREHEAD said he wished to haye some information from the Minister for \Var, whichever member of the Government that Minister happened to be, with refer­ence to the draft telegrams which appeared in the paper that had been sent round to honourable members, and which Sir vVil­liam J ervois recommended the Government to Si'nd. He should like to know whether the Minister for \Var had sent any; and, if any, which of the three draft telegrams ? 'Vhat, he would ask, would be the effect of sending home such a telt>gram as the following :-

"Forward by sailing Yessel ten tons gun cotton damp forty miles Hooper's core wire one gramme light twenty Silvertown mines plate nine hundred potl!lds cotton thousand platinum fnzes five shutter apparatus plate fifteen hundred diRconnecters two sets arcs plate fourteen two sets Walker's signalling appara­tus one cotton drying apparatus."

It was a vPry sPrwus matter for the House, and he was, therefore, anxious to know whether that telegram had been srnt, or whether any had been. He would read another one:-

"Ship at once four nine-pounders six hun­dredweight muzzle-loading rifled guns with four iron C!lrriages limbers and wagons complete in all respecLs except harness Three hundred ancl twenty common shell four hundred sl11 ap-

nel eighty case eight humlred filled cartridges four hundred silk blank cartridges with fuzes bursters tubes complete." He also found that there was another tele­gram to the following e:ffpct :-

"Order at once from Thornycroft. Chiswick Londvn one complete torpedo-boat outrigger type for two spar torpedoPs Speed about eighteen knots length about sixty-seYcn feet breadth eight feet six inches cost not exceed­ing £3,000 refer to Admiralty for adYice supe;intencl~~ce and trial Also arrange for sendmg out. He was sure the dPfence of the colonv was a subject on which every member took the deepest interest, and he had no doubt that the Minister for \Var would be able to give them every information. He trusted that although Ministers had not been prac­tising economy in every way, they would not refrain from obtaining these wonderful implements and storPs frcm home at the least possible expense. The telegrams were certainly the most enigmatical he had ever seen.

'l'he PHEliHER said that up to the present time a Minister for \Var had not becn appointPd. If such an appointment should be considered net:essary, and he had to i'xereisP his discretion in filling the ofiice, it was just possible that, from his well-known belligerent character, he should select the honourable membPr for Mitrhell.

Mr. MoREHEAD assured the honourable gentleman that he should decline to act with him in any capacity, and he had, therefore, better save himself the trouble of applying to him.

The PRE1IIER said the teli'grams had sim­ply been drawn up in the event of the House adopting the schcme of defence laid clown by 8ir 'Yilliam J ervois. In the consiclPr­ation of the Supplementary Estimates, he hoped to have the opportunity of taking the opinion of the House on this subject. He did not find the same cliJficulty in inter­preting the suggested telegrams as the hon­ourable member for Mitchell did, and he believed they would be perfectly intel­ligible to experts. As the honourable member had disclaimed all intention of having anything to do with either the defensive or aggressive tactics of the coun­try with which he was connected, he could only accept the disclaimer as a proof that he did not take great interest in the subject, and was not, probably, as well informed upon it as other honourable gentlemen might be. There was no intention of des­patching any of these telegrams until the. decision of the Housc had been obtained upon the formal estimates which would be submitted.

UNFURNISHED RETURNS. The CLERK, in accordance with the Ses­

sional Order, read ovPr the list of returns orderPd by the House and not yet fur­nished.

1080 Native Bi}'(ls [ASSEMBLY.] Protection BUi.

Mr. IVALSH said the instructions of the House appeared to be treated in a most barpfaced manner. An order "·as made on the 23rd May, on the motion of the honourable member£ or Kennedy, respecting the area of lancl alienated in the colony, and it had not yPt been furnished. This was .a matter affrcting the privileges of P<trhameut, aud ~ome expl<tnation ought to b.c forthcoming. M ember~ on the· other ~Hle of the House were vrry differently treated ; they had only to put a quP~tion on the paper and all the information thq required was at once given.

The PREMIER said .theJiouse was so accustomed to the protestations of the hon­ourable member for \Yarrcgo that they would not be surprised at this Rpecial pro­test. If the honourable gentleman had taken the trouble to inquire, he would have ascertained that the honourable member for Kcnnecly himself was not dissatisfied with the course adopted by the Govern­ment. The return, as called for, involved a very large amount of labour, and would even then have bren incomplete. \Yith a desire to make the returns as complete as possible, he had connnunicatcd with the honourable member. Tlutt gentleman, a she believed, accepted the decision to which he had come. The return would cost a con­siderable sum of money-probably not less than £1,000-and six clerks were engaged upon it at the present time. \Vhen com­pleted it would practically be a Doomsday Book of all the rcnl property in Queens­land, as well as of that portion which had not yet been converted into rcnl e~tate, but which was now in course of passing through the Real Property office. The return could n.ot possibly be completed before next ses­swn.

J\fr. \Y. ScoTT and Mr. IvoRY alw called attention to certain retm·ns ordered on their motion, and which had not yet been fur­nished.

NATIVE BlRDS PROTECTION BILL.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Mr. Griffith), in moving for leave to introduce a Bill to mu kP bdtcr provision for the Protection of :~alive Dinl;;, said the necessity for the reiuLroduetion of this Bill arose from the fact that certain amendments made and agreed to by the I"egislative Council had not been embodied in the copy of the measure sent up by the Clerk of the Parlia­ments for the Royal assent. A precedent was furnished by the lOth of George IV., cnp. 63. In that case the Royal assent was given to a Bill before it had passed through the two Houses, and an Act wa,s afterwards passed reciting how the error had occurred, and declaring that, notwith­standing such error, the Bill should be considered valid. There were two ways of dealiug with this question-either to recite

the mistake which had been made, and }JaSS a short Act supplying the omitted clause (which would involve the inconveni­ence of having to refer to two Acts of Parliament to discover the meaning of one), or to repeal the Act and substitute for it another giYing effect to the intentions of Parliament. Th0 latter was the simpler of the hvo, tmd had been adopted by the Gov­ernment. The House had power to repeal an Aet passed during the same session. He made this explanation now, beeause, in all probability, there would be no further discussion at any future stage of the Bill.

Mr. GROO:}! said he had given this mattE'r some consideration, ancl had come to the conclusion that this action on the part of the Government was totally unnE'cessary. The proper Bill had not been submitted to His Excellency for his assent. The Bill assented to by the House contained cer­tain amendments, and was submitted to the Governor without those amendments being inserted in it, the omission being made, no doubt, accidentally by the Clerk of the Legislati.-e Council. Under these cir­cumstances he contended that all that was necessary was to present the right Bill, as passcd by the House, to the Governor for his assent, and to cancel, by l)roclama­tion, the measure to which he had given the Royal assent. There were no prece­dents to guide them in this matter ; but were they to adopt the plan snggPsted by the Attorney-General, the House would be establishing a precedent which might here­after lead to dangerous consequences. He would take the opinion of the Speaker on the point of order.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL pointed out that a similar question had arisen in the time of Henry VI.-namely, whether a Bill which had been assented to, but which was not in the form passed by both HousPs, was valid or invalid; and the Chief Justice held that it was valid, inasmuch as it was certified by the King's writ to have been passed by the Houses of Parliament, while two other Judges were of a different opinion. The point had now been decided.

Tho SPEAKER: \Vith respect to the pomt of order, I may say that there is no doubt that this was not the Bill passed by Parlia­ment. My own opinion was at first that of the honourable member for 'L'oowoomba, that the easier way to get out of the diffi­culty would be by presenting the proper Bill and the cancelling of the other by proclamation; but as I am informed that the Bill is enrolled amongst our Acts of Parliament, there are no means to get it off the register until it is repealed. It is a question upon which the House may decide which is the best course to pursue. \Ye have no exact precedent to guide us; and if there is no objection, perhaps the best way would be to adopt the plan suggested by the honourable the Attorney-General.

Native• Birds [26 SEPTEli:BER.] P1•otection Bill. 1081

Mr. THoMPSON said the point raised by the honourable member for Toowoomba inclieated the necessity for repealing this Art. There was no doubt it was not the Bill passed by this House; and, therefore, the necessity arose for rPpt>aling it. HP doubted whether a proclamation could re­peal an Act of Parliament; and, therefore, the course suggrsted by the Attorney­General was the right mw.

Mr. PAL1IER said he differed from the honourable member for BremPr. Acc.orcl­ing to that honourable membPr's opinion, if the Clerk of the Upper House chose to send a Bill of any description to the Governor, never passed by either House, and the Governor assented to it, that was to be the law of the land. They were getting into a nice muddle, and were letting off the Clerk of the 1.:-pper House very cheaply indeed. There was nothing said about that gen­tleman arrogating to himself the right of making laws. \Yhat on earth was to prevent the Clerk of the Upprr House from sending up Bills to the Governor which had never been passed at all P He denied· that this Bill was the law of the land, as it had never been passed by either House. The same mudcllt> had been going on for years about the Polynesian Labomcrs Act, which he held was not the law. How could the House repeal an Act which it had never passed P They would be stultifying themselves by adopting the course suggested by the Attorney-General. He held that the proper way was to send up the Bill as passed by both Houses of Parliament, and get the Governor to assent to it, and run his pen through the other. He did not think the Clerk of the Upper House should be let off so easily; he should be blown up.

Mr. vV ALSH said he thought the Chair­man of Committees, the Speaker, and the President of the Legislative Council were also to blame in this matter, as well as the Clerk of the Parliaments. It was the duty of each to see that the Bill, when it left his hands, was the Bill which had passed through the Chamber; and he did not see why a mere subordinate should be blamed. He held that it would be a dangerous pre­CPdent to repeal a Bill which had been passed during the same session. No doubt they had the power to do so under an Act which rms a disgrace to the Statute Book, and allowed lawyers to tinker with Acts of Parliament at their pleasure. Still it was a dangerous precedent, and one which only the Attorney-Gt>neral would have dared to introduce. If the Government were to set the example of roseinding Acts of Parliament in this way, he might follow it up, and take up the whole time of the session in trying to rescind Acts of Parliament passed during the same session; and perhaps he might be well employed in doing so. There was an English way of

1877-3 X

dealing with this mattC'r, which the Attor­ney-General had not ehosen to adopt, and H1at was to move that the Standing Orders be suspended, and bring in a Bill to supply the missing clause.

1\fr. GARRICK said the honourable mem­ber ought to have supported his argument, as to what was the practice of the House of Commons, by authority. The honourable member was adopting the same fallacy ~s the honourable member for Bremer, m assuming that what had been done was law. The honourable member for Bremer said the Acts Shortening Act gaYe the power to repeal or amend an Act passed in the same session. That was quite true ; but the question was, whether thPre was any la"· to repPal P The honourable member for \Y arrego fell exac.tly into the sa;me error when he suggested that the Standmg Ordc~·s should be rcpealPd and a Bill intro­duced to supply the deficiency allrged to exist. The hoFwnrable member for Port Curtis saw the difficulty more clearly. To make a. Bill the law of the land three assents w·ere necessary-the assent of the Assembly, of the Council, and of the Gov­ernor; but in this instance only one assent had been given, and this assent had not the power of the three that were rPquirecl. It had also been suggested by Mr. Speaker th~tt the enrolment completed what was pre­viously defective. It seemed odd that what was defective-that what was imperfect-­could be made perfect by these mean~. The Pnrolment raised another difficulty, but it did not perfect that which was imper­fect. The course suggested by the hon­ourable member for Toowoomba was the right one; what had been assented to was not law, and the House was acting as if it were law.

The PREMIER said that no doubt a very important question had been raised,-­wl:lether what had been done was law P Although it might ~e _presumptuous i1_1 a layman to give. an opmwn on th: questwn, it seemed to hun tha1. when an mstrument professed to haye passed both Houses of Parliament, was certified to by ~he clerk, and assented to by the Governor, It bt>came law, even if there were defects in it.

Mr. P AL)fER : No. The PREMIER said that, according to the

standard laid down by the honourab~e member if the instrument sent to His Excelle~cy had a single defect it was n~t law. The House eonld hardly commit itself to that proposition. An instrull!-ent which passed through all the stages reqmrPd by the Stan~ing Orders t? Le passed by a Bill before It would recmve the assent of His Excellency the Governor, and which finally received such assent, became the law of the land, and the Native Birds Pro­t!'ction Bill, therefore, was now the law of the land, though possibly it was imperfPct

1082 Native Bird& [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

in the shape in which it had received the e,ssent of the Governor. There was a further precaution taken by the Standing Orders, which seemed to make it necessary to repeal this law. The fifteenth Standing Order provided :-

" Wb.en the Governor shall have assented, in the name of Her Majesty, to any Bill, one of the fail• prints thereof, on vellum, shall be deposited by the Clerk of the Parliaments in the registry of the Supreme Court, another shall be delivered to the private secretary of His Excellency the Governor, for transmission to Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the third shall be retained in the record office of the Parliament Houses."

It was to be presumed that all these things had been done, and that, therefore, it was necessary to repeal this instrument. It was defective, and the better way to remedy the defects was to pass such a Bill as was proposed.

Mr. BEoR said, if the Premier was right, honourable members might as well go home and leave the officers of the House to make the laws, or take up a deferential position and act merely as suggesters or advisers of what the laws should be. The Premier's suggestion seemed absurd, and was an entire waiver of honourable members' functions as a legislative body. It was quite clear that what had been assented to by both Houses was not what the Governor had assented to; and, therefore, fGr the House to repeal the instrument which had been assented to, or to pass a Supplementary Bill to remedy the defects, was to step aside altogether from its functions.

Mr. W ALSH wished to support his pre­vious statement by a reference to what was the practice of the House of Commons. On the 16th May, 1843, the Speaker said, with respect to the Schoolmasters' Widows' Fund Bill-

" I wish to call the attention of the House to the circumstances attending their proceedings on the Schoolmasters' Widows' Fund (Scotland) Bill, which passed the Commons on the 25th .A.prillast. It was returned by the Lords, with amendments, on the 2nd May. These amend­ments were submitted to me, and were pmfectly unobjectionable. It appears from an entry in the Minutes of Proceedings of tbe House of Lords of the 5th May that this Bill was re­turned from the Commons on that day with the amendments agreed to ; but there is no record in the votes of the House of their having been considered; and upon an examination of the Bill it appears that it has not been signed by the clerk in the usual manner, certifying that the amendments have been agreed to."

He merely quoted so far to show that the English Parliament had a certain procedure when an irregularity was concerned. The Speaker then went on to say-

" The Bill has now, by mistake, become the law of the land, and another Bill will be neces-

sarv, in rase this House shall think :fit to agree to the Lords' amendments, to render it valid." And in a foot-note it was added-

" The Bill was subsequently m(Lde valid by a.nother .A.ct."

That was the course the Attorney-General should have followed, rather than set the bad example of repealing a Bill passed in the same session.

Mr. PALMER said the rase quoted by the honourable member was not at all parallel with the one before the House now, for there the Bill was assented to before the amendments of the Commons had received the assent of the House of Lords. The course there followed could not be adopted here, because an amend­ment of both Houses had been omitted. He denied that this House had the right to repeal that which it never passed.

Mr. BELL said the only question was, whether this would be the law of the land if no other action were taken P He took it that it would; and that being so, the sooner the Bill was repealed the better. It did not matter what the informalities were, but it was clear that it would be the law; therefore, the best action was to repeal the Act, as suggested.

Mr. GROOM said that, supposing a con­viction under The N atiYe Birds Protection Bill was brought before the judges of the Supreme Court, and the question of the informality now under discussion "~>aS raised, in what relation would the case stand P The judges would be bound to take the necessary evidence as to whether the Bill passed by Parliament had been assented to, and then the discovery would be made that it had not.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if he had had information that so much doubt existed on the subject he would have spoken at greater length in support of the course he had advised. He had started on the assumption that, whether the instru­ment assented to by His Excellency was law or not, there were no means of treating it otherwise than as law. The judges were bound to take it as the law of the land. They might st>nd for the copy of the Act which was filed in the registry office, and they were bound to take judicial notice of it as the law of the land The question­if it was competent to raise the point before the courts, whether the Bill assented to was in accordance with that passed by both Houses of Parliament ?-had never been decided, and it would be very foolish to allow it to be raised at some future time. There were, moreover, many reasons why the judges should not make such an in­quiry. He had pointed out two courses which might be adopted to remedy the omission, and the one he now suggested would be the more convenient fo:r futu:r~;~ pmposes,

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 1088

Mr. GRIMES said it was prrfectly clear that the mistake had OPeurred somewhere bPtween the time the Bill had left the House ancl was s-ent to the Governor for his assent. Could not the error be brought under His Excelleney's notice, aud be corrected by him ?

lVIr. TROMPso::s- said Acts wPre made by Her Majesty with the advice and consent of the Houses. The Bill had been assented to by' His Excellency, and such assent eould nevpr be disputed. In the next place, how were they to go behind the record P It was always presumed that what had been done was rightly done, and it would be most dangerous if courts of law could go behind the record and inquire whether it had properly arrived at that stage. It was, in fact, perfectly absurd to talk of such a thing. All that a court of law could do was to inquire as to the enrol­ment of the Act; and as soon as an Act was enrolled it became law. He could not imagine a better course than that pro­posed by the Attorney-General.

Mr. BAILEY raised the question, whether the repealing of the Act, as assented to, and the bringing in of another Bill-the same in substance as one alrl'ady passed by the House-was not contravening the 56th Standing Order?

lVfr. PALMER believed the Attorney­General was responsible for the whole mistake. He advised the Governor to assent to the Bill, and should not have done so without satisfying himself that it was the Bill passed by both Houses of Parliament.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had taken the precaution to compare some Bills, but he did not consider it part of his duty to do so ; that ought to be left to the officers o£ the House.

Mr. GARRIC'K said the maxim quoted by the member £or Bremer, that what had been done was presumed to have been rightly done, did not preclude one from showing that it had not been so.

Question put and passed. The Bill was presented and read a first

time, and its sPconcl reading made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

SUJ:'PLY-RESUMPTIOX OF COM­MITTEE.

The House went into Committee of Supply.

The CoLO::-<IAL TREASURER said that, before propoHing the estimates of the Post­master-General, he wished to say a few words upon their general character. They showPrt a con~ir1Prable increase on the amounts voted fur last year, but tlwre were many causes combined to account for it. The Post Otfirc was an extending and expanding service ; and honourable mem­Qt'rs would see, by the Postmaster-Gen-

eral's Report for lfl7G, now on the table, what a great incn,ase had taken place in the business transacted. A number of salarie~, also, which had formerly been paid out of contingencies, were this year set down iu detail for the approval of Parliament. "\Vhen his colleague the Postmaster-General first compiled his estimate he (Mr. Dickson) was rather dismayed at its amount; but a close and careful examination convinced him that the inerease was necessary for the efficient working of the department. He would now propose a vote of £4,945 to defray the cost of the department of the Postmaster-General. The salary of one clerk was increased from £175 to £200, a second from £125 to £150, and a third from £100 to £125. The office-keeper was put down at £60, instead o£ £40-the additional £20 having been paid last year out of con­tingencies. Besides these increases, a sum of £750, for thirteen clerical assistants, appeared under this head for the first time, the salaries having been formerly paid out of contingencies.

J.\fr. BAILEY wished the committee to notice that the same system was pursued in these as in the preceding estimates. Officers at the head of post offices, receiving large salaries, had increases put clown to them, while nothing vms given to their subordinates-men who really did the hard work of the office.

Mr. lVIclLWRAITR said that the honour­able gentleman took a bad instance as an illustration when he selected the Post Office. He quite differed £rom him when he stated that the postmasters were highly paid officials, as he (Mr. Mcllwraith) thought they were the hardest-worked officers in the Government service, and he always looked upon them as being undPl'-paid. The same remarks applied to the Telegraph department ; and the committee might well allow small increases on these, even if they had refused them to other depart­ments.

Mr. BArL:gy did not complain of the higher officials being over-paid, but that their subordinates were not given increases also. A postmaster could get sick leave, if necessary, for two or three months, but a clerical assistant, if unfit for duty, had to pay a man to supply his place. There was also a great difference in the position of these officials in Brisbane and in the country; for i£ any new J?Ostmaster was required, the clerks m Errs bane got the appointment, while those in the country, even if they had been twenty years in the service, were passed over. He mentioned these thiug", because he thought the 1Jost office, as >>ell as other departments, re­quired reform.

.Mr. TROMPsox thought the reason that no increasPs were put down to subordinates in this department wa:;, because the service was extending and promotion was rapid.

1084 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

He was undl'r the imprl'RRion that country officials got the preference in eases of pro­motion. He quite agre,•d with the honour­able member for Maranoa, that the telt•­graph officials were very badly paid.

Mr. FRASER was surprised to hear the statement made by the honourable member for 'Wide Bay, that when a clerical assistant was incapacitated by sickness he had to pay a man to supply his place. He had heard on very good authority that this wns not the case ; and he believed that no difference was made between Brisbane and the country offices.

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL TmusuRER proposed a

vote of £14,370 to defray the expemes o£ post offices at Brisbane, Ipswich, Itock­hampton, Toowoomba, JYiaryhorough, \Var­wick, Bowen, Gympie, Townsville, Dalby, Stanthorpe, Cooktown, Cairns, JYiackay, Roma. and Bundaberg. Most o£ the appa­rent increase arose from the sums put down £or clerical a~sistance, formerly paid out o£ contingencies. Three clerks at Bris­bane got £25 eaeh additional, and there were also two new appointments-a stamper and letter-carrier. These had been neCL'S­sitated by the increase in bminess, which had been very great-107,000 more letters and newspapers having been posted this year than last. In Ipswich, where there had been an increase o£ 80,000 letters and papers, an increase o£ £25 had been set down £or the postmaster. There was an increase o£ £25 to the postmasters at Rock­hampton and Townsville, and £10 each to the sorter and letter-carrier. The same inerease was also given to the posllmastcrs at Maryborough, Bowen, vVarwick, and Roma,-the latter with clerical assistance. A new service had been established at Cairns ; and at Cooktown, although the amount was apparently larger, it was really the same as last year, the difference having been paid out o£ contingencies.

Mr. MoREHEAD pointed out that a mis­take o£ £500 had been made in the amount put to the committee, it having arisen in deducting the first item voted from the total appparing on the estimates.

Mr. \YALSH said that only £325 was srt down for the postmaster at Maryborough, while the same officer at Townsville got £350, and at Ipswich £400. He did not know why this difference should exist, as the business must be as great in 11ary­borougb, and the officer in charge was an old servant. The postmaster at Rock­hampton got less than the one at Ipswich, although a grnat deal more business must be transtwted in the £orml'r place.

Mr. DE Poix TYREL did not rise to com­plain of the reduction at Stanthorpe, as he thought the office eonld be very effieiently worked for the smaller sum ; but he wished for better facilities o£ communication with Brisbane. At present the coach left War-

, wick early in the moming, arrived at Stan­thorpe about elevPn o'cloek, and returned in the afternoon. He wished the arrange­ment revPrsed, tmd that the coach should leave Stanthorpe in the morning, so that letters might go down by the three o'clock train from \V arwick.

Mr. "\V. ScoTT said that an increase should have been given to the postmaster at Bundaberg, who was an old, efficient, and very hard-worked official. He had done more for the Government than any other officer in the service. An assistant ought also to be granted to him ; the work o£ the office necessitated one, and he could deliver letters. At present a man living on one side of the river had to pay £ourpenee to cross by the ferry, and went to the post office to rccei ve-a bill.

~'[r. JYIACROSSAN pointed out a serious omission on the estimatPs. It was now two years since 'l'hornborough had been established, and there vms no regular post office there, nor any provision made for one. The storekeepPr who held the post office threatened to throw it up, as the small remuneration he received did not pay £or the necessary clerical assistance. The mail arrivin~ there weekly was a large one-often a load for two or three horses.

The CoLONIAL TREASCRER quite agreed with the last speaker, that the service at Thorn borough was insufficient; but the department eontemplated its speedy Pn­largement. The present arrangement was only temporary and would be altered immediately. "\Vith regard to the Stan­thorpe post office, the reduction there arose from the £act that the clerical asRistant had been promoted to another situation--a proof that country officials did get promo­tion. As £or the change in the despatch of mails, the matter rested entirely with the post office, and they had only to consult with the Railway department to Ree how the trains would dovetail. The matter would not be lost sight o£. "\Vith regard to the difference between the salaries paid to the postmasters at Ipswieh and Hock­hampton, he might mention that the former was one of the oldest officers in the serviee, and there had been a greater increase of business in that office than any other.

:M"r. MoREHEAD said that, owing to the absence o£ the honourable member for Cook, who should have been present when the interests o£ his constituents were under discussion, the honourable member £or Kennedy had very properly taken up the matter. But whilst that honourable mem­ber had called attention to the wants of Thornborough, he had omitted to bring forward the claims of another town ealled Kings borough. He (Mr. :\Iorehead) trusted that the honourable grntiPman in charge of the estimates would give an assurance that that place would be properly att£>nded to.

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 1085

The CoLONIAL TREASUREH, in answer to the remarks of the honourable member, said that he was informed that the wants of Kingsborough had been thoroughly recognized, and that a post office was estab­lished there, the expenses of which were defrayed out of the vote for country post­masters throughout the colony; in addition to that there were post offices in all the immediate vicinities. ·with regard to the complaint of the honourable member for Mulgravc, of no increase being given to the postmastPr at Bunclaberg, he would remind the honourable member that that office hacl only been three years in existenee, and that the duties of the postmaster there had not so greatly increased as those of other officers for whom increases had been put down.

Mr. J. ScoT"r did not think that the distinction drawn by the honourable gen­tleman between the postmaster at Rock­hampton and the one a,t Ipswich was very saiiiifaetory, as in both eaHt'H ihe poxt­ma~ters WPrc old f'etTauts. The T ps11 ich post. offic·c· might very pt·obably be regarded only as a roadside oflice, whilst the tluties at Rockhampton were those of a despatch office to all parts of the world. .A.t Ips­wich very few mails were made up ; whilst at Rockhampton all the K orthPrn mails were made up. R onourable members were vPry often told that salaril's should be fix eel with n'garcl to a population basis, and that wherever there was a large population there should be the best paid officer; but it so happened that whenever the South was affected the word population was brought in, but whenever the North was concerned it was omitted altogether. J<'or instance, the postmaster at Rockhampton, with its H,OOO inhabitants, reecivedonly £3:65 a-year; whilst at Ipswich, where there were only 5,0JO inhabitants, the postmaster received £WO.

Mr. FooTE said that he should be glad to see the postmaster at Rockhampton put clown for as much salary as the postmaster at Ipswich. The honourable member for Springsure, however, was very much mis­taken in saying that the Ipswich post office was only a roadside office, as there were more mails, more business done, and more money passing through that office than at Rockhampton. He thought it was not right to pit one officer against another ; for whilst it might be desirable to increase the salary of the postmaster at Rockhamp­ton, it was no reason that the duties per­formed by the postmaster at Ipswich should be underrated.

Mr. \Y ALSH diclnot think that there was a proposition to reduce the salary of the Ipswich postmaster, who was, he believed, a thoroughly worthy officer; but the com­Illaint was, that. the postmaster at Roek­hampton was inadequately paid. He did not he;;itatc to say that the postmaster at

that place had ten times the work to per­form that thrre was at Ipswich; and without saying for one moment that the Ipswich 11ostmaster was receiving a farthing more than he deserved. lw considered that. the postma~ter at Rockhampton was, by eomparii'on, getting a great deal lesA than he ought to rrceivP. It was beeau~e honoura1)le members opposite would not look beyond their own electorates and their own friends, that so much acerbity was frequently caused in discussing the Esti­mates. Rockhampton was the second most important town in the colony, ancl the only reason he eould assign for the postmaster there not being paid the same as the post­master at Ipswich was, that the Govern­ment found it necessary to reward those officers who lived in districts represented by their supporters.

The MrxrsTER FOR \YoRKS woltld go so far as to say that the postmaster at Rock­hampton was deserving of a higher ~alary, as he was uwlonhtedly a vPry good officer. llr rose, howt'Vl'r, for I he pmpose of point­ing out to the honourable member for \Y arrego that he was altogether astray with regad to the clutiPs of the Ipswich posL oJllcc, as therP werl' more letters reeeived and clPspatched at Ipswil'h than at :l\1aryboroug1 and J{.oekhampton to­gether. If honourable members would refer to the last report of the Postmaster­General they would find that statement to be C'orrect.

.Mr. TH03IPSOX would draw attention to the faet, that although Ipswieh itself con- -tainecl only 5,000 inhabitants it was the centre of a very thickly-populated distriet.

n1r. J\1ACROSSAN: He was not quite satisfied with the answer given b'Y the Colonial Treasurer a few minutes ago, as he ronsiclcrecl that Thornborough was now sufficiently settled to have a post offiee built. It was an ascertained goldfield, and likely to last for many years ; therefore the sooner a post office was built ancl a postmaster appointed the better. The little towns about it might be well sened by storekeepers; but Thornborough itself was entitled to have a post office erected.

The OoLOXIAL TREASL"RER said that a little farther on in the estimates a vote was put clown to inelude a telet,rraph oflice at Thornborough, ancl that it was intended that accommodation should be provided in that building for a }lOst offic8.

Question put an cl passed. The OoLOXIAL TREASURER moved that

the sum of £81,110 be granted for Oon­tingcncios in connection with the Post­master-General's Department. Honourable members would perceive that the items included in that vote were based upon the YOt<'s of the preYions yNtr, although there were wme inereasrs. Those inen'ases had been made up in the first plaee of an adclitional sum of £1,501) for the COD,•

1086 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

veyance of inland mails, and of £2,760 for the conveyance of mails coastwise. That was owing to the last estimate showing only six months' appropriation for the new contract with the A.S.N. Company for the weekly coastal service northwards, which cost £7,400 per annum. There was also a sum of £1,51JO for repairs to build­ings, furniture, and fittings, which expen­diture was previously met by the Public Works Department.

Mr. BEATTIE believed there was a good deal of overtime work'in connection with the various post offices, and he should like to know whether it was customary to allow the officers anything for overtime, as it seemed unfair to them unless that was done. It was a well-known fact that in the Brisbane office the elerks were fre­quently kept at work until a very late hour.

The CoLONIAL TREA.SL'RER was informed that it was not customary to overwork the clerks, as those officers who were engaged at night were relieved from duty dllring the day.

Mr. BELL wished to mention, in refen•nce to the· sum of £20,000 put down for the mail service via Torres StraitN, that he had been informed that an offer had been made to the Government by the present company to do the service at an increased rate of spcPd for an additional subsidy, and that that offer had not bct'n acct'pted. He should be glad to hear from the Colonial Treasurer whether it was the intention of the Government to take such steps as would secure to the colony, more especially to the :Northern portions of it, a contimvmce of the presPnt service at an increased spet'd and under the best circumstances possible. If he had been informed correctly, an offer was made, which at least should have bPen considered by the Government in prefer­ence to allowing the company to run out to the end of tht'ir contract. He took it that if the Government allowed that con­tract to die out, and callt'd for fresh tenders, there would eitht'r be an increased cost to the country or no service at all. He thought it would be quite possible for the Governmt'nt to make such terms with the company as to insure an increase of speed, which would be beneficial to the colony generally. 'l'he present contract might fall through by cxcC'ssi ve demands bcing made ,on the company, whilst ample time was allowed to make judicious arrangements with them.

The CoLOXIAL TREASURER said that the contract with tht' Torres Straits Company had still three or four years to run; but by giving six months' notice to the Gov­ernment they could terminate it at any time. Should they think proper to do so, there were other companies quite wil­ling to enter into a contract with the Government for lt'ss than was demanded by the present company. The d-overumeut

considered it was undesirable to encourage a company to tender at a low ratt', and then, on the first expression of discontent, to give them an increast'd subsidv.

Mr. BELL did not think the question of encouragement to contractors, as put by the Colonial Treasurer, should be taken into consideration by the Government, but that all they should eonsider should be what was bPst for the country. Tht' question was, wht'ther the GoYernment could not, by a little negotiation, come to some arrange­ment with the prest'nt Torres Straits Com­pany for an improvement of that serviee at a YPry slightly increas~d cost? He thought that that would be far better than to allow the company to go on to the bittt'r end of thPir contract and ask them to compete with others. The Colonial Trea­surer told them that they had uot enter­tained the proposals which had been made to them, as they did not think it was fit to encourage contractors who sent in low ten­dt•rs by inereasing thPir subsidy ; but he (JYir. Bell) understood that tlwy had rather disrourag,•d the present company in the YPry first offer that company had madC' to them.

:J!Ir. \VALsH thought that the argument adduced by the Colonial Treasurer was most t'xtraordinary,-that beeausc the Gov­ernment did not think tendercrs would be able to perform the work they would not entertain their proposals,-in fact, it was tantamount to saying that they took the interests of certain companies more into consideration than tlwy did those of the country.

Mr. J. Sco'rT drew attention to the con­stant im·onvPnit•nce experienced from the incoming mail l'ii1 Torrcs Straits arriving within a day or two after the diRpatch of the outgoing mail. He thought if a slight addition were made to the subsidy of the company tht>y would be induet'd to inerease their speed so as to allow of letters being

~ sent by the outgoing mail immediately aftt'r the arrival of the mail, instead of before it ..

The CoLO.:SIA.L TREASURER said that the matter referrt'd to by the honourable mem­bl'r for Springsuro certainly 11ointed to a defl'ct which it would be deRira ble to re­move. He might mention that the GoYern­ment had endeavoured to meet the incon­Vt'nience by offering the company a bonus of £100 a-day for each clay they delivered the mail within the contract time, in order to allow lettNs to be answerNl by the out­going mail. It appeared, however, that nothing less than doublt' tht' present sum paid to the comvany would satisfy them. If thP company chose to throw up their con­tract the Government ·1n•re awart'thatthere were other companies, both in and out of the colony, who would be willing to do the

, work; and, undt'rthesc circumstanees, thPy · did not feel inclined to lenu their ears to

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 1087

the proposition for an increased subsidy. He had already said that the Government did not consider it desirable that, if the con­tractor found the amount for which he had tendered was insufficient. he should be en­couraged to break that contract. If there was any discontmO on the part of the pre­sent company, they could terminate their contract by giving six months' notice.

Mr. BELL: What amount is requirell for a ten-knot service?

The CoLONIAL TREASURER : £-.to,OOO. Mr. BELL : Am I to understand that the

company is not doing its work properly? 'l'he CoLONIAL TREASURER said they were

doing their work well, with a nine-knot service ; and they were offered, as he had said before, a bonus of £100 per day for each day they arrived within the contract time.

Mr. PALMEH said that a bonus of £100 a-day was an absurdity, as it would not pay the company for the extra cotton and oil used. Everybody who was at all acquainted with mail steamers knew that to dri vc a steamer one knot over a nine­knot sPrvice would take an enormous in­crease of coal, for which the £100 a-day offered by the Government would not pay.

The PRE:IiiER believed. it was a fact that the company had run their steamers at a great disadvantage, occasionally, by not allowing them to come in within the con­tract time. He did not think, although it happened that the company had done their work well, that, because they had been unfortunate in losing two or three of their boats, the Government should pay them an increased subsidy to compensate them for their losses.

An HoNOURABLE J}fEMBER : \Ve don't ask for that.

The PREMIER said that that, at any rate, was the sort of plea put in by the company to the Government-namely, that they had attempted to meet the convenience of the Government, and had done more than they had contracted to do, although they had experienced heavy losses. He believed that that was with an eye to their own pockets, as they had run their steamers to command the trade of China.

Mr. lYouY asked to whom the 150 copies of Pugh's Almanac, which appeared on the contingencies of last year, had been fur­nished?

The Cor.oxrAL TREASUHER said they were ordered by the late Postmaster-General for distribution at the Philadelphia Exhibition and in England.

Mr. IvoRY asked whether they had been ordc•red by the present Minister for \V orks?

The PRE11IER said the expenditure had been a very judicious one. There was no publication in Queensland containing so much accurate information with reference to the colonv, and their distribution in America and England could not fail to make the colony more widely known.

Mr. GRoo::~r, referring to the Torres Straits mail service, said that to any motion to further subsidize this company he should cheerfully give his vote. A more useful work than the subsidizing of the E. and A. Company had never been done for the colony. Those who remembered the dif­ficulties that were experienced years ago from the old A.S.N. Co., when the Suez mailboat used to be entering Sydney Heads as the Queensland steamer was on the point of leaving, could hardly appre­ciate the great difference for the better which had now been brought about. For this improvement the country was largely indebted to the honourable member for Port Curtis. The present Government, he thought, did not sympathize with the E. and A. Company quite so much as they ought to do. It had been asserted that that company had done the colony great injury by bringing Chinese immigrants hither. He did not believe a word of it; for if the E. and A. Company had never existed other boats would have been put on for the service, and there would not have been the slightest difference in the result. If the subsidy were increased to £40,000 the colony might have a mail service of its own, independent of the Governments of any of the other colonies. The Torres Straits mailboats had been of immense service, not only to the Northern portion of the colony, but to Brisbane and the towns on the Darling Downs ; indeed, he believed he was speaking the opinion of the majority of the residents on the Darling Downs when he said that they would not have the least objection to a vote being carried for an increase of £20,000 to the company's subsidy. He agreed with the honourable mem­ber for Port Curtis, that the offer of £100 per diem was totally inadequate for the amount of service the company was asked to perform. Looking at the benefit which would accrue to the colony from an increased subsidy on the part of the Gov­ernment to these steamers, an additional £20,000 would be very well spent. He hoped he had not done the Government an injustice in his remark, that they did not appear to sympathize sufficiently with this company ; but such was the fact as it presented itself to his mind. Perhaps the Colonial Treasurer was not aware of the difficulties the colony had formerly to undergo in this matter or he would not be so anxious that the company should give up their contract. He hoped that the A.S.:N. Co. would never again be allowed the exercise of their gigantic monopoly, which was for so long a curse to the colony.

The PREMlER said the honourable mem­ber for Tbowoomba had spoken of the prob­ability of the revival of a gigantic mono­poly which once existed, and had attributed

1088 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

to the Government an inclination to foster the re-establishment of that monopoly. He did not think there need be any fear of the Government reverting to the old state of thingH, any more than they would think of reverting to sailing-ships between Eng­land and the colonies for the carriage of the mails. Every year some improve­ment in the method of carrying mails -was discovered; and it appeared that even now the Suez route was likely to be set aside in favour of the direct Cape route from Melbourne. The tendency of the times was altogcthrr in favour of doing away with mail subsidies and to subsidize the telegraph instead. He did not think the Government could be birly accused of being unfavourably disposed to the E. and A. Co. That company had done its work well in accordance with its stipulated contract, and he did not think it was exactly fair to attribute to the Government any disin­clination to meet them on fair grounds. He understood that an offer had been made of .£5100 a-day for each day the com­pany saved on its contract. time. It mu~t be remcmbert•d that the companv had a~kecl thr Gon•rnment, on s ·veral oerasions, to more than double the amount of their subsidy. Last year they asked for the subsidy to be increased to £50,000, and this year to £10,000. lie thought it would bo unwise, on business principles, to accqJt any such offer, unless the company gave up their contract altogether, in which case the Goyernment would be in a position to invite tenders in thP open market-when, he had no doubt, they would receive offers 11·hich would enable them to secure a mail ~oryice much in advance of the existi11g onP, and without paying a penny more than they were doing at the present time. lie had in his possession a direct offer from the A.S.N. Co. to perform a ten-knot ser­viee for an amount not in Pxeess of :what they were now paying the E. and A. Co. Beeause the eolony had had its differences with the A.S.N. Co. in old times that was no reason why they should not avail them­selves of the adyantage of thPir compPti­tion in the open market. He believl'd that at ono time the A.S.N. Co. did not treat the colony quite fairly. But there were other companies qtde as competent, if not more competent to compote with the ·E. and A. Co., if necessary. The Pacific l'd ail Co. 1vould be quite prepared to connect their Australian mail sen-ice with the service along the coast of Queensland to Hong­kong, and he believed they would do that work for no more than the E. and A. Co. now asked for. Under these circumstances, he did not think they would be justified in accepting any such offer as that to which r cft>rence had been made. The E. and A. Co. should havr a fair field and no favour. They had done good serYicw, allll harl mrt with some di~astcr:;, and the GoYer1mwut

should endPa\·our to show them every con­sideration in its power; but thl'y were not bound to giye them more than they would be justified in giving, from what. they knew of the state of the market. In tht> absence of an v direct instructions from tho House, the GovernmPnt did not feel inelined to accept any offPr whid1 would have the effPct of setting aside the present contract.

J\!Ir. P.n3L8R said one would imaginr, from the remarks made by the ::VIinisters who had spoken, that the E. and A. Co. were asking an increased subsidy for nothing; but it must be remembered that the offl;r was for a ten-knot sen-icc, whieh made a deal of differenc<'. He was sorry to gathrr from the Premier's spPech that he thought the days of subsidizing steam companies were at an end, and that the money should be given to telegrapl_Js instead. Telegraphs were very useful m their way ; but thl'l'e were thousands of things in which the te!Pgraph would never supersede mail steamers. As to the steamer route by the Cape, even if the speed could be kept up which hacl been attained by tho Lusitania, the Chimborazo, and other boats, it would be of very little use to the southern portion of Queensland, and of no use whatever to the northern portions; indeed, ihe interests of the northern por­tion of the territory seemed to be Pntirely lost sight of by the presPnt Ministry, whose first and last aim and object was Brisbane. He did not think that that rate of speed would be maintained. The last vessel of that line made a forty-two days' trip to Adelaide, which was a grPat difference from forty days to :i\Ielbourn~, and he did not think a long 1mssage hke that was ever likely to be kept up to an average of forty­two days. There was no doubt the E. and A. Co. had been treated yery badly by the present Government. JYiinisters sePmed to forget that tlwy hacl struck a deadly blow at the prosperity of that company by takiug away, at ono fdl swoop, one of their gn•atest sources of profit,-the Chinpse immigration. He differed Pntirely from the opinion of some honourable members, that the influx of Chinamen had done harm to !lw colony ; but, taki11g it for granted that they had clone ltarm, they would have comL' all the same if this company had never b,•en in existence. Indeed the greater portion of the Chinese immigrants had come in chartcr,•cl boats. Suppo:>ing the present senice to come to an end, it would be the duty of any Government to give prdert•nce to a company which had, for a very small subsidy, carried out all that they undertook to do. Complaint had been made that the eompany diLl not meet the Gon·rnnwnt by increasing their rate of speed; but, as a matter of fact, they did so by running at a dead Ios,; for tln·pe or fom months, and arnn11g at port some days before their contract time, But why ~hould they do

Supply. [26 SEPl'EMBER.] Supply. 1089

that when all that the Government offered thl'm was the paltry sum of £LOO per day for e>ery day within the contract time-a ~tun which would hardly pay for the oil and cotton-waste used on the voyage? The Government said the company were not tn•ating the colony fairly. He could only say that they wt>ru treating them too wt>ll.

1\Ir. GROO>I pointt•d out that when this nmtter came before the House the honour­able llll'mb~r for Port Cm·tis was supported from both sides, and he did not think that honoumble memb~rs h~tcl altered their opinions on this subject in the meantime. He bc•lievecl that owners of steamboats would decline to run them on a mail ser­vice 1vithout a subsidy. Indeed the Ht. Osyth had already bet>n taken off the Melbourne line b?cause the passenger traffic was not suffiment to support a vessel of her class. If the honourable member for Port Curtis chose to test the opinion of the House in this matter he would give him all the support in his po1ver, as h<' con­eei>ed it would be one of the best things that could be done for the benefit of the colony.

Mr. P.U,)IER said there was a general impression that the vessels which he had mentioned were new boats; but, to his own knowledgt•, the Lusitania was in com­misHion tln·lve years ago, and this was merely an attempt to get into a trade with boats that had for a long time bc'en earning nothillg. He did not believe that a mail seniee would be carried on without a subsidy for many years to eom<'. It would not pay the boats to run unless thl'y could imure a fuil eargo and passenger list C'Yery trip.

1\fr. Me Jr. wRAITH asked what was the n<'t result of the Torn·s Straits mail senice? The rPport of the post<tl scrvic·e was the best whic·h had been laid on the table of the House this yl'ar; but he thought it would have added to its interest if it had shown the net result of the mail sen-icc. His own impression was that the service cost the colony nothing at all.

The PRmrnm had ml'rely instanced the Cape l'oute to show what bc•ncfit had been brought about by competition. The trailic that crossed the Atlantic also showed what <"Oulcl be done by competition. Probably, for many years to eome, the colony would have to give a subsidy in order to secure a regular mail service, but the trailic would be clc-pendPnt on other sources.

Nfr. JHclLWlUITII said every ship that earriedmail s across the Atlantic reePived an allowanc<'. In a very short time there would bt>, in all probability, a quiek route established between Melbourne and Eug­land, and it would b:.J the duty of this Government to consider our position 1vith regttrd to that serYi<"e. If this quiek route were establishecl, this colony would he bound in self-defence to make its mail ser-

vice equally active. '\Vith regard to what the Premier hnd said respecting the E. and A. Co., he would point out that the company hacl been working against great difficulties and great losses, and was enti­tled to have a preference in ttny future arrangement that might bl' made. It would not ]JQ fair to put it in competition with the A.S.X. Co. He doubted whether that company was sincere in its tender. The general impn·ssion was that it had been simply put forward for the purpose of blocking up the competition for the Xorth­ern trade. and that so soon as that com­petition had been beatc'n off they would make their own terms. There was another reason why the E. and A. Co. should reeeive consideration. There had been legislation which had had a distinct effect against the trade of tlmt company, and conditions had been brought into play that did not exist when the company took the contraet. Had they known of these eondi­tions beforehand, they would not have tendered. The Government had also done a great deal of harm by the maml<'r in whieh the quarantine laws had b0en worked pre­vious to legislative action being taken. It had never been understood by the HonHe that tlteHc quarantine arrangements had been made for the purposP of preventing contagious diseases spreading to the colony. The main object hacl been to block Chinese immigration. The law should noL be twisted to hurt in any way particular interests, and the interests of this company had been hurt in a way not creditable to this colony. lie did not know what information the l'remiPr might have in sayiug that for the present price even a higher rate of speed could be secured. He doubted that very much. The Go>ermnent must remember that they were bound to keep up the ser­vice', and that if they did not, other Gov­ernments would exact harder terms when it ceased.

'l'be Prm)HER must deny stating that the company did not deserve consideration at the hands of the Government. They did deserve consideration; but he did not think that their losses should be made a ground­work for a higher subsidy bl'ing given to them. He should be >ery sorry to have the House suppose that the Ministry had shown any intention of throwing any obstacle in the way of the company carrying out the service. '\Yith regard to the quarantine regulations, there was serious alarm felt nt first about the introduction of small-pox; but he must admit that there were other caus0s which contributed to the mainte­nance of the regulations. He must submit, however, that the comp:my were never harassed, and that the GovPrnment had always endeavom·ecl to meet them in eyery way. He was sure the managers of the company would admit that their eonveni­ence \Yas met whenever it was vossible. He

1090 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

should also be very sorry if anything he had Haid led to the impression that the Govern­ment did not value the TorrPs Straits srr­vice. They considerrd the srrvice in PVt'ry way desirable; but that was another thing to just doubling the subsidy to secure the difference of a knot an hour. He admittPd that if arrangements wrre made by the Southern colonies to SPcure increasPd speed, then it would be the duty of this eolony to secure increased Speed aho; and to do that they mURt be prepared to give an inereased price. The E. and A. Co. dPserved every consideration ; but the safer course to pursue was to invite competition in the open market. Probably the company "IYOuld prefer it. They knew the trade. It was in order to secure the tea trade that they tendered; and having sPcured that trade, they WPre probably in quite• as inde­pendPnt a position as the A.S.N. Co. If there was to be an altrration, he was sure the J?Ublic would prefer that public com­petitwn should be invited.

Mr. JYiclLWRAITH again asked if the Colonial Treasurl'r eo.uld give him the amount of revcnur receivl'd from the Torres Straits postal service ?

The CoLoXIAL TrmAsrRER replied that £5,000 was received at this end, and £;3,700 at the otlwr,-or £H,7UO altogl'ther.

Mr. MciLWRAITH would sugg<>st that the accounts should be made up so as to show the net cost, year by year.

Mr. Knm said, before an increased subsidy was given, the question should be considered, whether the colony wanted a quicker mail service? He had not the slightest hesitation in saying that the people would not give £20,000 a-year addi­tional to have increased speed. It might be a matter of some importance to a small number of commercial nH'll ; but as for the great bulk of the people, North and South, they would con sicler it the wildPst extra­vagance,-for it did not matter to tlwm whether they got their home letters eight or nine clays earlier than now. Any way, if it was considered desirable to han; an increased rate of speed, what possible dif­ference could it make to the colony wh<>ther the contract was let to the one company or the other? \Ye ought to act on thP com­mercial principlt>, and get the best offer for our work; and if the A.S.X. Co. were prepared to give a quicker serviee for £20,000, and the E. and A. Co. were not, then they were entitled to the e0ntraet. \Vith reference to what had been said respecting the A.S.N. Company, if that company recPived the contract tlwy would be bound to carry out the mail senice for a number of years; and he had no doubt that they were the larw'st company and best able to carry it out. In the present state of the colony he must protest, on behalf of a largp section of the people, to paying £20,000 additional for an increase

of speed in our mail service-a matter of ab~olute indifference to a great majority of the people of the colony.

:Mr. PAL~TER said it would make a vast difference to the inhabitants as to which company got the contract. If the A.S.N. Company got it, tlwy would, immediately that they had beaten off competition, raise their rate of freights for the coast trade, and a grpat majority of the people of this colony would be affected, for the price of goods would bL' proportionately increased. £20,000 was a mere bagatelle to the differ­ence that woulcl be made. The arguments of the honourable member for Ravenswood went for nothing.

Mr. Kr::>G said that only a short time ago the E. and A. Company refused to take freight for the Northern ports; so ~hat he did not see how they kept the frerght down.

Mr. BELT, said that if there was any argument in the honourable member's speech, it wPnt to show that the present line of steamers should not exist at all. The honourable member argued that many people did not care whether they got their letters early or late, and if thrir plea were a guide, then they did not wish this service at all. But that wa~ ndt the question which had bc•en raised. He quite endorsed what had fallen from the honourable member for J\Taranoa, that when the mail ser­vice from Victoria was made quicker it would be nec~ssary to make our mail service quieker also, or do away "-ith it a;ltogether. But it must be recollected that rf the pro­posed servicP round the Cape ever came into existence a quicker service, via the Sm'z Canal alld the smoother seas, could still be obtained. He had no doubt that there would be a saving of eight or nine clays by the speedy scnice 1•ia the Cape; but the E. and A. or P. and 0. Co. would be able to do it quicker still. vVhat was the position of the Goyernmcnt? 'l'hPy had treated the offer of the E. and A. Co. as a very extreme om', or one that should not be considered, and had thrown it a;;ide as a question that should be considered at the end of their contract. It would bc more busine.;s-like if the Govcrnmrnt had taken up this question, and endea­voured to secure a speedier service- at a higher cost perhaps-but perhaps not w m~wh above the E. and A. Co.'s. Instead of pooh-poohing the tender, it \1-ould have been more business-like to have entrrecl into riPgotiations. It sermcd to him that the Government had lost sight of this question, and to his mind it would be too late to treat it at the end of the contract; for, although it was desirable, as a general rule, to go into the open market, business men knew that it was not always the best course to adopt,-that when thPy had a ser­vice and a firm which was prepared to continue it, they should be treated differ-

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Supply. 1091

ently. It was clear to his mind that they did not treat the offer with that defer­ence to which it was entitled, because he believed that this route was capable of being nurtured into a very favourable track. He could not help thinking tlmt the sympathies of the Government were diametrically opposed to the service, and that the people would suffer mate­rially if the Government continued in office. He believed that there was nothing more important to the North than this service and its continuance at an increased speed.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER believed that the establishment of this service had bt>Pn a great boon to the colony, and should be sorry if anything that he had said would cause the honourable member for Too­woomba to think that he was speaking dis­paragingly of it, or inclined to throw cold water upon it. The Government, however, had a duty to perform to the country-and that was to see that a mail service should be maintained, and that its ~peed and cost should be in proportion to the require­ments of the entire community. Now he maintained that the increaRed rate of speed would be solely for the convenience and benefit of the South, and that to attain this object it would not be fair to saddle the country with an extra £20,000. More­over, the South were not dissatisfied with the existing service. No clissati~faction had been expressed, that they were unable to reply to their cmrespondence, to any extent that would justify the Government in adding £20,000 additional to the pre­sent subsidy merely to give greater pos­tal facilities to the South. The Gm·ern­ment had taken up a proper position, and he was sure that the members represent­ing Northern constituPncies would agree wi~h him that it would be most unwise and unjust to double the subsidy merely to benefit the South.

1fr. BllLL said the Government were not asked to double the subsidy, but they had been asked to enter into negotiations to obtain increased speed ; but this they had thrown aside.

Mr. MclLWRAITII had seen nothing in the debate which justified the Colonial Treasurer dragging in the question of North and South. Honourable members advocated that the Government should take steps speedily for the purpose of getting a quicker mail service-that they should keep up with the timeR. They were not keeping up with the times-for, according to the returns of the Postmaster-General, the ]Jresent service was the slowest. 'Ihe a ve1:age passage by the Torres Straits route was fifty-three days; by the San Francisco route forty-nine clays; and by the Victorian route forty-three days. It was the slowest sernce, cYen when it was considered that we had to trust to chance to vessels meet-

ing the mail steamers at Sydney and at M:Plbourne. This fact, and the fact that the other colonies were using thPir utmost efforts to establish a Rpeedier mail service, were suJlkient reasons why the Government should stir themselves in the matter. He quitP believed that nine-tenths of the people did not care wlwther they got their letters one vwek or next week; but they were not lPgislating for these people. They were sent to rcpreHent tl1e intelligenl'e of the country ; and their opinion, as intc•lli­gent men, was that this colony would gain immen~e~y by a spePdier sPnice.

Mr. 1IAcRossA~ said some members who had alren.dy spoken SPemed to haYP blamed the Government for the way they had treated the E. and A. Company. 'Ihe company had carried out their contract well, and the Government had faithfully performed their portion. He eoulcl not, therc>forP, see how any blame was to be attached to thP Government. It had been Haid they had not shown the company consideration ; but what was consideration P If it was eonsiclerPd dPsirable to have increased speed, he would ask honourable m em bt>rs on his sidE' if they would think it fair to aeeept a eontract for £CW,OOO, when the same speed could be had for £20,001) P The honourable gentlemen who were now blaming the Government 1Youlcl b!.l the first to blame the Goyernment for wasting the Jmblic money. As to the idt>a that if the A.S.N. Co. got the contract the Northern merchants would not be able to get their goocl8, excPpt at incrPased rates, he did not think that rt'sult would follow. There was no 0ompetition between them and the E. and A. Co. ; the competition was with the Melbourne company's boats. He did not fear that the A.S . .N. Co. would establish such a monopoly as they had before -tlwy eould not do it. The GoYern­ment would not be justified in paying more than £20,000 for the mail senice whilst they could get a company rearly to carry it out for that sum. The ho110urable member for Maranoa insisted that the E. and A. Company were deserv­ing of consideration because, by recent legislation, their trade had been injured; but the mail contract had been signed before the passenger trade with the Pa~mer had sprung up, and tlwy took their chanre of what might. come; so that the argument should have no weight in considering the question. JYiore than nine-tenths of the people wPre quite careless as to whether therce should be a nine or ten knot seryice. As for saying that they were not in that House to lPgislate for nine-tenths of the people, because they fancied themselves to be wise, he would like to kno"IY who they were supposed to legislate for ? He knew that this increased subsidv would suit the convenience of a few shippers; but it \YOuld not suit ninety-nine hundredths of the

1092 Sttpply, [.ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

people, and the Government would not be justifil'd in spending the money.

:i\i[r. MciLWI!AITH did not say they should not legislate for nine-tenths of the people, but that if the que'stion were put to the vote that proportion would prefer to ke<>p the money, because they did not understand the matter. l\1:embcrs in the Hou~c who did understand it were better qualified to speak on the subject. It was not a fact that the company entered into their contract without considering the pas­senger traffic; on the contrary, the direc­tors particularly reckoned on it. The l'l'ason given in the preamble of the quaran­tine proclam~;tion was, that it had be<>n issued in consPqnencc of the existence of small-pox in Hongkong and other ports. It was now admitted that this vnts a pre­text, and that the real object in issuing the proclamation had been a political one ; it was, therefore, put nside as soon as legis­lation efFecting the same object had been <"Ompleted. They had injured a private eompany in order to attain objecls which they should have reached by legislation. The Colonial Secretary had told tlwm the other night that a health officer had been stupid because he had insisted on perform­ing hiH duty under the quarantine procla­mation, and had paid no attention to the hint he received from the Colonial Secretary's oflice, to the effect that he nePd not be so particular, as a Bill to serve the same end had become law. The Government had iujured priYate interests to sene a political object. His argument was, that the com­pany deseryed consideration. He did not say consideration in money, bHt in treat­ment, because the Government-by political action-had made the conditions different than they were when the contract was accepted.

J\ilr. BELL said that this was exactly what he wished to ,refer to. The Govern­ment had not taken the question up in a thoroughly efficient form, and did not look upon it as a question for the best interests of the colony, but had looked upon it as if it were a question in which they had a direct prejudice against the company. They had never shown the inclination, ·whil'h it IYas considered they ~hould have Llon;;, to enter into fresh negotiations for a different service of gr<'ater sp<'Pd, and, consequently, greater cost. His principal object in rising, however, was to refute the arguments of the honourable member for Kennedy, who objected to the arguments of the honourable member for J\1:aranoa. The honourable membPr for Kcnnedy said the House should legislate for the majority; and that, in fact, members were not sent there to legislate for the colony of Queensland generally. It might be that the majority wcrc wrong, and that their repres!'ntatives knew better than they did. Of course, members were sent to Parlia.

ment by the majority of the constituents ; but it did not follow that they were right, for they often sent the wrong man. He knew it in his own case-for he was returned by a majority when a better man was turned out. l\1:embers, however, rame there to legislate, not for the majority but for the colony generally ; and if the minoritv were right upon any question it was tlui'ir duty to lPgislate in that dinwtion. This was one of the most important subjects to be recollected when they were lPgislat­ing. It was too much the fashion for legislatures in the colony to be guided entirely by majorities. True, members hacl to be scnt to the House by majorities, and minorities were not represented ; but that was no reason why intelligence should not be rPpresented.

:i\iir. M.~cRossAX said the member for Maranoa might have found another expres­sion which would have answered his argu­ment just as well. The honourable mem­ber saicl that the Government had u~cd the quarantine rl'gulations to attain a ee1'iain end, and that the Government injured a private company for a political object. He should have said "publie object." He (1Yir. Macrossan) maintained that they "·ere perfectly justified in using private interests for public objects. It was clone every day, in eycry country in the world. As to the arguments of the honourable membl'r for Dalby, it was possible the minority knew better than the majority; but until the minority becrtme a majority it was bound to bow to the will of the latter. MembPrs were not scnt to Parliament to legislate for the minority. It might be that the argu­ment would suit gentlemen of Conseryative opinions, that the majority did not as well know what was good for themselves as the minority did. The minority, no doubt, thought they knew better than the majority, and would rule them just as they pleased; but so long as members were sent to Par­lianwnt upon the present suffrage they were bound to attend to the opinions of the majority, >Yhatever those opinions might be-e>en though they were wrong-and to educate the majority, though they were wrong, until they >Yerc right. The honour­able member said they must act for the public of Q,uepnsland generally. But who were the public of Q.uecnsland? "\V ere they not the majority? It was clearly impossible to legislate for every man; and their duty was, therefore, to legislate for the greatest number, or the majority.

Mr. BELL said that if the argument of the last speaker was correct, they hacl no right to use their intelligence at all, but to be the mere delegates of a majority, who might be intelligent or who might be blindly ignorant. How about the question of immigration ? Did not the IJegislatures of tl1is colony and of others maintain immigration against the opinion of the

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER,] Supply. 1093

great majority of the people, because they believed it conducecl to the public good?

Mr. GARRIC'K said that the discusRion had become rather confused. Two ques­tions had been mixed, whether they should legislate for or according to the will of the majority. It might well happen that they could legislate for, and yet against the will of the majority,-he had often found it so when acting for a number of people. The question at issue seemed to be, whe­ther they should have a quicker mail ser­vice, and whether £20,000 a-year was a fair equivalent for the advantage of a ten over a nine knot speed. It was not fair to ask the Government to accept the word of the E. and A.. Co. that this sum was an equiva­lent for the sen-ice, and they were quite justified in asking by competition whether the knot an hour was worth £20,000. The Premier had spoken about telegraphy su­perseding mail communication. Although he (:Mr. Garrick) did not bclieYe that it ever would entirely supersede the post, yet there were cases in which it might. Those chiefly interested in the increased speed sought for were men in business anxious for more rapid adYices; and these might use the telegraph, leaving the rest of the eolony, who did not care for speedier communication, to use the onli­nary post. For this last class he did not think £20,000 would be a fair equivalent for the extra knot an hour. A.s for the ques­tion of consideration due to the E. and A.. Company, that depended on the conditions under which their contract was concluded. If the carriage of Chinese passengers was a condition the company reckoned on, then certainly an injury had been clone them by recent legislation. A.nd although private interests were often injured for the public good, this was never done without giving relief. The misfortunes which had befallen the company could not form an ingredient in our consideration, as they could have protected themselves by ordinary com­mercial machinery. If the E. and A. Company had been led to reckon on the passenger trade when making their contract they were entitled to consideration; if not, they had no claim.

Mr. MciLWRAITH said the passenger trade from China had been published in the prospectus of the company. With regard to the arguments of the honourable member for Kennedy, that because nine­tenths of the electors, say of his own (Mr. Mcilwraith's) constituency, did not care for this increased subsidy, he would be act­ing against them by voting for it-he would answer the argument by an illustration. He (}fr. Meilwraith) voted for the Burde­kin bridge ; but he would guarantee, that if his constituents had been polled, ninety-nine out of every hunch·ed would have voted against it; but they trusted him, and his good sense, that he would act for the best interests of the colony.

Mr. PERKINS said that the clisrus~ion had apparently drifted into a cli~pute betwPen the A..S.N. Co. and the E. ancl A. Co. He would like to know who were the people that demanded this increased subsidy P If the colony, or even the city of Brisbane, was polled he was sure that the majority would not vote for spending this extra £20,000. They had too many mail service~ ; perha11s if there were fewer they would be more exact. A. few gentlemen interested in Brisbane stood up for the increase; but the people at large took no interest in it. He himself would like a quicker service; but he spoke for the people at large, 1dw wt>re satisfied with the present rate. The sum of £20,000 would pay interest on £500,000, which would build a hundred miles of rail­way. The question was, had the Govern­ment broken tlwir contract with the E. and A.. Co P They had nothing to clo with the fact of thrir boats having gone ashore. In the name of his constituents-who formed a considerable portion of the people of the colony, ancl did as much business as other communities of the same size-he protested against this Pxpenditure. He was, notwith­standing, quite sensible of the advantages derived from these boats, and remembered the tyranny of the A..S.N. Co. That com­pany had always worked in connection with Sydney and for Sydney interests. A.t the present tinw they carried goods from S yclney to some Northern ports at the same freight that they charged from Brisbane ; but he agreed that other boats in the line would prevent thPm from establishing a mono­poly. He a,;kcd again, what benefit would the community obtain if this £20,000 was voted? None, he maintained. The sen-ice was a goocl one, the contract was fulfilled ; but if the E. and A.. Co. wished he had no doubt they would be allowed to retire from it. If so, he had no doubt that other companies would take it up. He did not see why Government should be foreecl iuto this course by a few people. If the mino­rity were to rule it was a bout time that the majority disappeared.

Mr. vY.nsH, in the name of his consti­tuents, dissented from what the honourable member for A.ubigny had stated. They would not consent to lag behind the world, and to endure what he believed was tlw slowest mail service in the world. If it was only for the benefit of . enlightening the honourable member's constituents, it was the duty of the Government to incur the increased expenditure required. There had been so many crude notions advanced that evening on the subjeet that he had become quite confused; and as to the speech of the Premier, he believed that he had neyer heard such weak commercial arguments as those laid clown by him.

Mr. BAILEY said there was an ancient story of a strong man who attempted to pull up an oak-tree; but instead of doing that he got his legs and arms so

109-1 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

fixed in the tree itse 1£ that he died in the attempt ; and so he thought. some honoura­ble members wished to do for Queensland, in laying sneh heavy burdens upon the shoulders of the real workers of the colony. Because, forsooth! other coloni0s had expen­sive buildings, it was thought that they should have the same; and now it was pro­posed that they should have expensive mail Sl'rviccs. In the name of the taxpayers of the colony, he did not see how all these extravagances were to be met.

Mr. \V.usH: How about the Gympie railway?

Mr. BAILEY said that the Gympie rail­way would be the means of enabling pro­ducers to bear the burden of taxation; in .faet, without railways the producers of the colony could not possibly hope to enable the Government to meet their bills.

J\fr. GRnn:s said he had no rrason to change the opinions he had entertained last session when the subjrct was under dis­cussion. He agreed with the opinions that had been enundated that evening by the ho wurable member for Ravenswoocl and th~ honourable member for Kennedy. He thought that in entering into mail contracts some regard should be paid to the commer­cial lwnefits which would be derived by the interchange of proclucts; \\-hereas, by sub­sidizing the E. and A. Corirpany, they merely entered into commercial relations \vith countries similarly situated with Queensland, and which produced similar articles of commerce ;-so that, in subsidiz­ing the company, they were doing so merely for the benefit of the SouthPrn colonies. It had been saicl that it would be a benefit to the inhabitants of the colony if the speed o£ the present service was increased; but he believed that by far the greater portion of them would not coincide with such an idea. It would be a convenience to the Southern portions of the colony, no doubt, by giving them an opportunity of replying to their letters earlier; but it would not affect the Northern ports, as they already had that opportunity. He did not bPlieve that the colony would benefit by an in­creased speed; and being of thltt opinion, he should support the action of the Gov­ernment.

J\fr. PAL}IER said he wished to express his dissent from the remarks of the hon­ourable member for Kennecly, that mem­bers diclnot go to that House to legislate for the minority. \Yhy, the fact was that the greater part of their legislation was for the minority,-even, for instance, in the Native Birds Protection Bill which had been before them that evening. He should like to draw the attention of the Minister for Lands to the very next item following the one now undPr discussion-namely, £tl,2GO for conveyance of mails coastwise, which amount was nearly half the subsidy paid to the E. a:tld A.. Company, and was a

vPry considPrable iucrt>ase on that paid last year. He should like also to know the meaning of the £1,000 for the convey­ance of mails v£d Melbourne and Galle. He had always understood that the arrange­ment was, that if we carried their mails, both Sydney and Melbourne ·would carry ours.

The CoLoNIAL TREASURER said that the amount was paid to Victoria at the rate of Is. 7 cl. per ounce for letters forwarclecl by the P. and 0. Company. At the same time there were receipts from the same service, which, as honourable members would observe, on reference to the Post­master-Grneral's re11ort, showed a balance of £008 in favour of the colony.

Mr. PAL:MER thought it was a.bsurd to pay ls. 7cl. per ounce for lette~·s conveyed by the P. and 0. Company, whrlst 6cl. only was charged for a half-ounce letter.

ThP CoLONIAL TREASURER said that it looked contradictory ; but he was informed that the majority of letters clicl not weigh more than a fractional part of half an ounce, and that it was only when the letters were tied up in bundles that they were charged at the rate of ls. 7d. per ounce.

:Mr. "\VALSH had always been of opinion that the colonies had entered into an agree­m(lntto subsidize each other's mail services; and he thought that this colony should subsidize the P. and 0. Company and the San Francisco services, and thus induce the other colonies to do the same towards the Torres Straits service. He wished to point out that a friend of his lately went home by one of the P. and 0. Company's steamers, and, in a letter to him, said that nothing could be worse than his trPatment on board, which was owing to his being a Queenslander-that, in fact, he had been told that, as South Australia and Victoria subsitlizecl that company, passengers from these colonies received the greatest amount of attention. He mentioned that to in cl uce the Government to get some justice clone, and not tacitly to allow colonists of Queens­land to be put on a footing inferior to those of other colonies.

The PREMIER said that he did not place much rPliance upon the statement ; not that he did not bPlieve it, as stated by the honourable member, but because the P. and 0. Company were too much alive to their own interests not to treat all passen­gers alike.

Mr. PAL:MER said he had had later ex­perience o£ the P. and 0. Company than the Premier, and he considered that they treated their pas~engers very badly indeed. They might treat them all alike, but it was very badly.

Mr. BAILEY believed that it had been arrangPcl that the pilot-boat should land the mail at Inskip Point; and he should like to know whether it could not be arran~ed, b;y a similar system, that a bag

Supply. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Supp1y. 1095

should be taken to Maryborough, and so cause the delivery of letters some days earlier.

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL TREASURER moved, "That

the sum of £800 be voted, under the head of 'MiscellaneouR,' in connection with the Postmaster-General's Department." Hon­ourable memhers would see that there was an item of £500 for the purchase of instru­ments for country stations. It was found advisable !o make that provision, so that reports of weather observations taken daily could be publislwd at the post office and also in the newspaprrs. That was certainly clonP, to some extent, at the present time; but it was considered aclvisable that more extended inform1ttion should be given.

1\ir. BEATTIE said he had waited for some explanation to be given by the Trea­surer, with reference to the question put by the honourable member for \Yide Bay, as to the landing of the mails at Inskip Point. He should like to know how they were to be landed, as not once in three months would the steamer be able to get there.

The CoLOXIAL TREASTIRER said the ar­rangement now made for the pilot-boat to put off from Inskip Point to steamers leaving Brisbane on Saturday, with the Northern mails, had only recently been tried, ancl he was not, therefore, prepared to say how it answered.

Mr. BEATTI~ had no hesitation in saying that a steamer would not be able to land mails there once in three months. It was an impossibility that any steamer could run clown from Breaksea Spit to JHary­borough bar.

Mr. PALMER asked the Colonial Trea­surer if he wished the committee to under­stand that the company would allow their boats to land mails at Inskip Point with­out being paid for so doing. Did tl;e hon­ourable gentleman know the extra distance the boats would have to go, or the very risky part of the coast they would have to run down?

The CoLO:YIAL TREASURER said that, as he had understood the question of the hon­oumble memb,•r for \Vide Bay, it was in reference to the steamers which left Bris­bane for the Northern ports every Satur­day, and he gave an answer accordingly. He hacl since ascertained that he was in error.

1\fr. \V ALSH wished to know if there was not some way of compelling the Telegraph Department to give meteoroiogical news from every part of the country, in~tead of, as at present, from only a few places. There were several places in the colony of great importance to meteorological observers, ancl h~ knrw that returns from them were systematically omitted, ancl thus the whole table was incomplete. He had seen per­~ons rushin~ into the Exchange at Sydney

to get a copy of the Cou.·ier, for the pm. pose of secmg the weather observations takPn in various parts of this colony, thus pro>ing the importance attached to them. It would cost the country nothing if the Government would see that more attention in that respect was paid by the officers of the Telegraph Department.

Thc CoLONIAL TREASURER said that the object of putting down £.300 on the esti­mates before the committee was to provide stations with the necessary instruments wh<'re at present there were none.

JVT r. \V HSH said that if honourable m em hers ·would look at the Courier they would find that, clay after day, week after week, ancl even year after year, there-was a foot-note attacht'd to the table of meteoro­logieal obsenations to tl1is effect-" These stations are not providPd with instruments." He trnstPd that some guarantee would be given by the Government that the instru­ments would be provided if the money was voted.

1\ir. GRnms sugg-Psted that the observa­tions would be more correct if they were taken at three o'clock in the afternoon instead of, as at present, in the morning.

1he CoLOXIAL TREASURrm said it was the practice to take observations at 9 a. m., 3 p.m., and 9 p.m. The temperature at 9 a.m. was taken as the average temperature of the hwnty-four hours.

1\ir .. MciLWRAITH asked "'hether any arrangements had been made for the pur­ehase of the late Captain O'Rcilly's scien­tific instruments P

The CoLONIAL TREASURER repliecl that the instruments had been offered to the Government for £375, and that negotiations wt>re pending, although the purchase had not yet been decided upon.

Mr. BBATTrE thought it would be for the convenience of the shipping interests that obsermtions should ba taken at 9 a.m. and

· 4 p.m. This was already done in the other colonies. Captains of ships windbound ~n Hobson's Bay, for instance, could ascertam how the wind was outside the Heads, and beat do>>n to it and get away; whereas, without those observations being made known to them, they might perhaps lose their passage.

The CoLOXIAL TREASURER said the de­partment had agreed to announce the reports twice a-clay-viz., at 9 a.m. and at 3 p.m.

Question put and passed. The CoLOXIAL TREASURER moved that

the sum of £J.,4G5 be granted :for the Chief OffiC'e ofth" "Electric 1'elegruph·Department. It ha cl bt>Pn ckcided to make a very impor­tant alteration in this office. At present there was no assistant-superintendent, and l\fr. Cracknell hacl the sole .charge of both tlw profe~sional and the l'lerictLl branches, which confined him, to a great extent, in­doors. The a~sis!ant at Bowen exercised a 15eneral ~uperintendence over the North·

1096 Supply. [ASSEl\IBLY.] Supply.

~rn lines. During the superintendent's absence there was no one to look aftN both the branches. It was proposed to ap}lOint an assistant-superintendent, to reside in Brisbane, to take rank after JYir. l\Iattvieff, the snpPrintendent of the X orthern district. Mr. Mattvieff received at present, in~luding allowances, a salary of £465, and 1t was prO}lOsed to appoint him as gPileral inspector of thE' Northern district, at a salary of £500-his forage allowance being discontinnPcl. It was proposed that Mr. Bourne should be appointed assistant-superintendent in Bris­bane, at a salary of £450, bPing an increase of £50 on his present salary as chief clNk and accountant. Mr. Bourne had beE'n recommended to this office as far back as 1871, and would, no doubt, fill it very efficiently. The other increases were £5i5 to Mr. Bourne's successor in the office of chief clerk and aceountant, and £80 to the corresponding clerk on his promotion; and there wE're three increases to the other elerks, amounting to £70. The onlv other increase was to the instructor of learners, for whom £20 was asked. The total increase was £268. The assistant instru­ment-fitter and storekeeper's assistant, who were last year paid out of contingencies, apueared on the estimates for the first time.

Mr. GRAHAM said it struck him that the person holding the new position of assistant­supPrintendent would be in reality the second officer in the department, although his salary was put down at only £,.t50. HP should like to know whether Mr. Mattvicff had had the option ginm him of takino­that officP, and whether it was proposed t~ make a further addition next year to the salary of Mr. Bourne?

The CoLONIAL TREASURER replied that it was not intended to interfere with the posi­tion which Mr. J\J:attvieff now held. 1'hat gentleman had charge of a distinct district, while the assistant-superintendent would be subordinate to Mr. Cracknell. There was no intention on the part of the Gov­ernment to ask for any further salary for the assistant-superintendent. ·

Mr. BELL said the main point of the question put by the honourable membrr for Darling Downs, and which had not been answered, was whether Mr. Mattvieff had had the option of coming to Brisbane and accepting the office of assistant-super­intendent? It was a post which most officers would elec.t in preference to that which Mr. Mattvieff now held at Bow en.

The CoLONLH TREASURER did not think the option had been offered to Mr. Matt­vieff. That gentleman would have, under the new arrangement, £500 a-year and a residence, while the assistant-superinten· dent would only have £450, without resi­dence.

Mr. BELL said that perhaps the Colonial Treasurer would be surprised to hear that Mr. Matt.vi<"ff would have accepted the oflice of assistant-superinknclent if it had been offered to him, altlwugh the salary was low·er than that which it was proposed to give him at Bowen.

Mr. GRAHA11 asked if l\fr. Mattvieff had applied for the offiee P

The Cor"OXIAL TREASURER replied that Mr. Mattviefi had applied for the appoint­ment, but it was considcrPcl unadvisable to remove so efficient an offieer from such an important office as he held at Bowen, there being no equally eligible officer to replace him.

l\fr. BELL said it appPared that under the· present Government efficieney was a very unfortunate trait in the c haractPr of a Civil servant, as it prevented him from obtaining the highest prizes in hi~ depart­ment. It was not a good argument to say that because a man was efficient he should be kept in a place where he did not desire to be.

l\1:r. M ACROSSAN asked how many officers there were at Bowen besides Mr. J\Iattvieff, and the amount of their salaries P

The CoLOXIAL TREASURE!~ replied that there were six officers there besides Mr. Mattvicff, whose aggregate salaries amoun­ted to £9·1<0, besides which there was n line repairer at £120. This large staff was obliged to be maintained there, because Bowcn was the repeating office for the whole of the Northern district.

Mr. O'SuLLIVAN suggested that Towns­villc, being a more eentral spot, would make a much better repeating office for the Northern district than Bowen.

l\1r. l\IAcROSSAN said that Bowen ought to be one of the lmvpiest towns in tlw colony, as nearly £11,000 of public money was paid in salaries in that little town of a few hundred inhabitants. No less than £1,560 was paid in salaries in one small office.

Mr. MuRPHY said that if the office was to be removed from Bowen he did not see why it should not be removed to Cooktown, whose elaims were at least equal to those of Townsville.

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL TREASURER moved that

the sum of £:37,461 be granted for telegraph stations. There were a few increases m the salaries of the station-masters, the operators, and the line repairers. The present estimates embraced provision for 137 stations, whereas last year there were only 12-J..

Mr. THOMPSON wished to call attention to the fact, that the station-master at Ten­terfield had a salary of only £810, includ­ing allowances; while theN ew South \Y ales station-master at the same place had £.1.50.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said the sum was considered sufficient by the department

Suppl;y. [26 SEPTEMBER.] Su.ppl;1J· 1097

for the services performed thPre. In addi­tion to the station-master, there were five other officers at Tentcrlield, the aggrrgate amount of whose salaries was nearly £800 -in all £1, lOO. This was a repeating office, and there was no analogy between the cases of the Queensland and New South ~-ales station-masters at that place.

Mr. IYALBH said it was one of the small­est buildings that he ever saw devoted to telegraphic purposes; and if five officers of the Queensland department, and probably a like number from New South \Vales, were penned up in such a place, it was a down­right cruelty. There waH not room for two men.

The CoLOXIAI, TREASURER believed the honourable member was quite correct as to the inadequacy of the accommodation, and was informed that the Legislature of New South \\-ales had voted a considerable amount of money for ne'w buildings, which were about to he commenced, if they had not, indeed, been already started.

.Mr. ~Il!RI'HY asked if the telegraphic line to Thornborough had been completed, and if not, how soon it would be P

The CoLOXIAL TREASURER replied that, the line was in course of construction, and would be open possibly in six weeks, or two months at the outside. There was an amount of £10,000 on the Loan Estimates for a new line from Taite to Thorn borough.

Mr. J\'[ URPHy ask<>d if it was proposed to extend the line from Thornborough to Cairns or Island Point P

The CoLO::'I'IAL TREASlTRER would point out to the honourable member, that proYi­sion wa~ made on the Loan Estimates for a line from Thorn borough to Cairns. Jt, was not being proceeded with on account of the construction of the other line.

Question put and passed. The CoLOKIAL TREASURER moved that a

vote of £19,260 be granted on account of Contingm10ics. One of the items-·" Re­pairs to buildings, furniture and fittings" -1vas formerly charged to the \:V orks DE'partment. The other increases were necessitated by the large number of stations which were now established.

Question put and passed. The CoLOXIAL TREASURER moved that a

1•ote of £t,G50 be granted on account of Auditor-General. 'l'he 'Vote was precisely the same as last year, but there was a slight difference in the distribution of the salaries, on account of one of the officers having retired, and three new inspectors haYing been taken from the clerks and gin'n a ~light increase of salary.

QuestiOn put and passed. The CoLOXIAL SECRETARY mo>ed that a

vote of £2,:141 be granted on account of OhiPf InspPdor of ShPPp. There was a small increa~e of £:12 io one of the inspec­tors, ar:.d an. increa;;e of £51) to the inopeetor

1877-3 y

at Rockhampton. There was also a new item of £5S6 for "fencing for sheep qua­rantine ground."

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL SEcRETARY moved that a

vote of £2,990 be granted on account of Registrar of Brands.

Mr. vVALSH wanted to know how the item in the previous vote, of £586 for fenc­ing for sheep quarantine ground, was pro­posed to be spent, and why Rosewood Scrub should be selected P It was thevery '1\'0rst spot that could be chosen.

The CoLONIAL SECRETARY said it was unusual to discuss an item after it had passed, but he would give all the informa­tion that he possessed. He believed the site was chosen because it was more con­venient and more suitable than the site in South Brisbane.

:i\.fr. '\V ALSH understood that Rosewood Scrub was beyond Ipswich; it was, therefore, a most unsuitable spot to run sheep upon.

lvJr. ScoTT was deceived by the vote, and thought it was for the place along the rail­way line near Brisbane. He never knew of Rosewood Scrub.

The CoLO::'I'IAL SEcRETARY could hardly tell why this particular spot was seleeted, but presumed that it was because it was considered the most suitablP, being on the railway.

l\1:r. P AL~1ER confessed that the item had totally escaped his attention. The Colonial Secretary must be in error as to the locality, for no man would dream of sending sheep supposed to be diseased to Rosewood Scrub; that was the way to spread disease. He was sure that the chief inspector did not recommend the quarantine ground at Rose­wood. He believed the vote was intended for the ground in the vicinity of Brisbane.

The CoLo~IAL SECRETARY would make inquiries as to where this particular place was situated, and would not allow the money to be appropriated until the matter had been thoroughly inquired into.

Mr. P.u::UER was satisfied with the Colonial Secretary's promise. The Colo­nial Secretary must, howeyer, know as well as he did that it would be an act of mad­ness to land sheep at Brisbane and send them to Rosewood.

Question put and passed. The CoLONIAL TREASURER moYed that a

vote of £4,979 be granted on account of Savings Bank and Head Office, Treasury. This was £75 less than last year, and the reduction was caused by the present Under­Secretary to the Treasury assuming the office of Auditor-General from the first proximo. His successor would be the chief clerk in the Treasury, 'll·ho would also undertake the supervision of the GoY­ernment f'ayings Bank at the salary of £700, It was, therefore, only necpsr.;ary to a~k for one quartPr's salary. There '\\·ere a few increases in the Savl.ugs Bank

1098 Real P1•opm•ty Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Real P1•operty Bill.

estimate, amounting in all to £219. 'l'wo officers, who had formerly been paid under the head of clerical assistance, were now placed on the regular staff, making ele>en clerks instead of nine.

Question put and passed. On the motion of the CoLONIAL TREA­

SURER, the Chairman left the chair. re­ported progress, and obtained lca>e to sit again to-morrow.

SOUTHERX AND WESTERX RAILWAY. Mr. GROOM begged to bring up the report

of the Select Committee appointed to in­quire into the working and management of the Southern and \Vestern Railway, together with the minutes of evidence, and would move that it be printed.

Mr. WALSH asked whether it would not be advisable of the Government to intimate the day on which a discussion would be taken on the report ?

The PRE~HER said it would be most con­Yenient to have the report discussed before the estimates came on, and he proposed that the honourable member for Too­woomba should have an opportunity of moYing the adoption of the report on Tues­day. After that they would be in a better position to proceed with the details o± the estimates.

Question put and passed.

REAL PROPERTY BILL-COMMITTEE. The House went into committee for the

further consideration pf the Real Property Bill.

Mr. l\fuRPHY moved the insertion of the following new clause, in place of clause 10 of the Bill:-

Subject to the proYiso next hereinafter con­tained all instruments when registered shall take effect from the elate thereof which elate shall be expressed in t.hc certificate of title o:r other instrument issued by the Registrar-Gen­eral ProYidccl that no such registration as last aforesaid which would interfere with the right of any person claiming under any instrument preyiously registered under this Act shall be made exc·ept subject thereto.

Mr. \V ALSH said that this discussion took honourable members by surprise; and he suggested that it would be better for the Attorney-General to move the Chairman out of the chair. It was a most important measure, and no one expected to go on with it that night.

The ArroR:l<EY -GENERAL said he c1esirec1, in the interests of public business, to go on ·with the Bill.

l\fr. RuLEY said that the amendments seemed three or four times the length of the Bill. He did not think the committee were competent to go on with them at that late hour. It was an important mrasure, and any blundrr they might make would cost the community thousands of pounds.

The ATTORXEY-Gll:l<ERAL said that the amcndwonts had been before honourable

gentlemen for some months, and the Bill for a year. The new clause was merely a verbal variation of a clause alrPacly in the Bill, and he did not know what need there was for the change.

l\fr. MuRPHY said it was necessary to facilitate the transaction of business. It was a common practice for a purchaser of land, bought at auction from the Crown, to sell again before the grant issued. In the neighbourhood of Brisbane there was no difficulty in doing this ; but it was differ­ent wheil these transactions took place at a distance. In these distant parts, when the instrument of tramf8l· had been completed it might not reach Brisbane before the clePd was issued, and then the officer would refuse to register, because its elate was anterior to that of the deed of grant. It was merely a technical difficulty ; but he knew a case where three months had been lost in sending back an instrument to the Palmer to have the elate altered and initial eel. This cl a use was designed to meet this technical but important difficulty.

J'.fr. :FooTE said that it was not adYisable to go on with the Bill at that hour. He called attention to the state of the House.

A quorum having been formed, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he was

satisfircl, no mattrr how large a number of members might be in the building, they would always ha Ye a small number in the House to consider such a measure. He hoped honourable members would assist in going on with the Bill. After the explana­tion given by the honourable member for Cook, he would withdraw his opposition to the new clause.

Question put and passed. The ATTORKEY -GENERAL moved that

clause 11-" Transfers of fee simvle not in duplicate Leases may be in triplicate"­as read, stand part of the Bill.

<:tuestion put and passed. Mr. \YALSH said that they had no right

to proceed with a Bill of so much import­ance while the House \Yould not giYe it proper attention. He warned the Attorney­General that he had no right to go on with this measure, ancl protested against his pro­ceeding.

The PRE~IIER said that he hoped the honourable gentleman \Wulcl waive his objection. Those honourable members who remained were really the only ones compe­tent to consider the matter. which had been already well ancl thoroughly can­>assecl.

M:r. W ALSH said that he must again vro­tPst against going on with this measure with such a thin House. He was sorry to clo anything unpleasant, but would call the attention of the Chairman to the state of the committee.

No quorum being formed, The House was counted out at twenty

minutes past ten o' cloc:k.