Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 1905

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1648 [ASSEMBLY.]

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

THc:nsnAY, ll5 K OYEMBEn, 190!5.

The SPEAKER (Hon. Sir A. S. Cowley, Ho·bert) took the ch<tir at balf-p:.cst 3 o'cluck.

QUK3T!O:'\:'l.

GHlr.s' BcHooL, 'VlouNT :\ToRGAN.

Mr. UOWAP (Fit.:m_u) asked the Premier~ 1. II~1S an~· ren~on been given for the re~i;rnatinn of

the conmntte'~ of the girls' and infants' school, ~iount :1Iorgan ~

2. If not, will lJC maku ilutuiry into this mattt>r?

The PHKVIIElt (Hon. A. l\Iorgan, Warwick) ret•lied~

1. :-io. 2 .As the enmmittt)e ha\·c not. :L:''-igned any rr- tson for

their rcsig-mttion. and no C(_llnpiainL has been mact..., bY or agaln."'-t tht>m, it is not eonsidcre<l neec~sary tO institute an iuquiry.

PuosEHPINJC ::\Irr.r..

llfr. KE:'\KA (Bo11·en) aoked the Trea-Rnrer, with1)ut notice--

HHs he alJY oh.iection tn laying on the table of the House the la~t 1Jalanee-sl1cet of the Pro~erpinc mill?

'l'he THEASURKtt replied~ X ot that I knmv of.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES ACT A:M:END­::\'lE:0i'T BILL.

SECO!W READING.

The HO:YIE SECitETARY (Hon. P. Airey, Flindcrs): In moving the second reading of this Bill I desire to call attention to a few fads by way of explaining the nonessity that has arisen for its iutmduution. In the Local Authorities Act of 1901 the sale of land for rates unpaid for seven years was authorised. That Act was a very useful one, but it was defective in certain details, and when the Acts relating to local authorities were con­solidated, tho Act of 1901, in an amended form. was inclndccl in the Act of 1902. The particular sections to which I refer are 243 to 24-9. The procedure with regard to sales of land for rates unpaid is simply this: The clerk of the local authority sends to the regis­trar of the nearest District Co-urt a certificate to the effect that the rates on certain land have remained unpaid for seven years; the registrar then publishes notice of sale, and, after a certain period has elapsed, the registrar issues his warrant, and the land is sold. The

[Hon. A. H. Barlow.

trouble first came in with regard' to the form of the certificate issued with regard to the unpaid rates, and the notice of sale. The forms specified hon. members will find on re­ferrmg to section S4-3 of tho Act of 1902. 'l'he-;J' forms differ from those proscribed in the Act of 1901, inasmuch as they require that there should be given among other things, ttw number of the volume, and the folio of the certificate of title. Unfortunately, the fur m issued by the Department of Justice was that which held good under the Act of lUUl, and that is hov; the trouble has arisen. In the case Church t'. Forbes, the Full Court decided tllat tllf'- on1ission to CO!nply with tl1e. particulars referred to im·aLdatcd the s.alo. On this deci.sion a great num:.er of sales are liable to ~" declared :m-a.lid, and it is hJ,_,h]y de,siraLle that we should sot tl1is matter at rc•>t by vnlid.a.till!, the sales that lwYO be-on rnadc. J t lms Lcen dc:;iclcd to so frarne this Dill as not to affect acticus -·phich '"ere corn­meucecl l:cforc tlm Lt Octoh,r, the decision in the e:ase to which I ha.ve referred having been given in Septen1l1er. Proceedings have heen takC'n a._r·a.inst quite a nurn er of lccal authorities, and inasrnuch as the troubre has l {~·en no fault of U;l _[ think it T'.Tould be singularly hard a.ml if they were a~lol'-ed to ~uil'or. In fact, it quite possH,Je

;[ lc~~al proceeding·, are p<'r-.;i~ted iu sun1c tni~ht G<! rulrle~_L ~\uother point is

thi11k it. highly Jes1raL Jc tlw.t i11nocent .hould not ha\·e to suffer Od ac­

couut of 1nist.a.kcs or jrregulariti+.:; for which they are i11 110 v.;ay rc~pOJL .... i, le~. R. PHILP: \,Ylrat <:.t.boat the If thPm i a.lJV fa;<it tlw part of the

.--hou.LJ d-t•'"atdt-iho rnan

demo duty. 1n th:~s Dill 1.:e purchaser. we the local a.nd t\mr · UJJdCl'

tlmt

t~rne.

lloN. R. PHILP (Tozcnst•ille): When the previous Bill was brought in and rushed throug-h, we asked whether the Bill was in ordN, aud we \rere assume! by the Premier that it was iu order. [The HOME SECRl,TARY: It was per£ectiy in order.] \Vhat is wrong- with it now~the title was wrong·--was that all? [Tho HOTh!E SECRETAHY: No; the title is right.] Why did you withdraw that Bill and bring another one in? [The Hmm SECRETARY: Simply because this is in a better form.] Because the other ono was \vrong and this is rig-ht. I will never take the opinion of the Premier in tho future. Vvhon the Bill was brouc~ht in befor~;, '.'- o a~-kcd for the legal opimon of the Attorney-General, but he was not here. I hope we shail g-et a legal opinion from that side of the House this time which is right. [The PREMIEH: \Ve can only get one.] Ono good opinion is better than half-a-dozen bad olH:""~S. \Ye are (ruite content on this side to always take the opinion of our legal mem­ber as. so far. we have found it right, and the opinion of the other side wrong. It appears to me that auy man who owns land is fair game to bo shot at b:; anyone, no matter what he does. [The Hmm SECRETARY: What part of the Bill make him fair game?] Because he has no chance at all if the land is sold illegally under this Bill. The land is sold illegally already, and this Bill is brought in to legalise what has been done illegally. I think more

Local Authoritir,~ Act [16 N OVEMBEU.j Amendment Bill. l6:t9

time ought to be g-iven. [The HOME SECRE­TARY: A period of seven years is given.] I gave the Home Secretary a case in point of 900 odd acres having been sold, and the owner said he had no notice of the rates being in arrear. He v:as not !i,-ing- in the district. [The IImm SECRETARY: I know that case.] There was plenty of timLer on tlw land, and the 900 acres was sold for £3 to one of the Jivi.,ional boal'd:-;. I think that .. Q_iviug this power to local authorities to sell land has been a mistake. It has not helped the local authorities in the least. [Mr. 2\.'IELSO:->: Y on !fa Ye it.] I did net give• it: I w'" a n1embcr of the Government who did it, but even the late GoYernment made a mistake at that time. ::lo far, the local authorities havG not benefited one bit by the selling of land, but it has dc­croasocl the nt!ue of the land in the divisional boards whcro the land has been sold. In my own doctorate there was a lot of lane! sold for £Hi0, and after advertising and auctioneer's Gxponses had been paid there was nothing left at ull. Ono allotment which cost £150 was sole! for 10s. That benefits nobody, and I think "'" ought to reconsider the whole of this question, and whether it is a wise thing. It may suit a lot of people who do nothing else hut go to auctions picking up bargains. There arc people to be seen living on their wits, and gc,tiing land for 10s. which cost £100, bnt it does not snit the unfortunate owner at all. They may be out of the way, and employing agent,, and not know anything about it. [The PnEMIER: li'or se yen years?] Yes; it is quite possible. I think the time ought to be extended. Instead of the first duy of October, 1b05, in ciause :3, it ought to bo 190G, so that in futuro landowners whose land has been sold illegally can recover from the different boards who have not done \Vhat they ought to have done. Surely a man ought to get some redress for a wrong done him, but this .debars the unfnduuate OV\'llCl' of land-\\'ho;-;€ land has boon sold withont his knowledge, without rate notice being delivered, or receiving the a eh ,_-:.rti::::{'ll10l1t at- all-fron:J obtainin redl'.PS::<.

It is a most cruel thing. Of course, it is part and parcel of the present Government's sup­porters that nobody should own land at all. IV e tax a man who makes an invest­ment hero and goes away, and whose rates, through no fault of his own, have not been paid, and he ought to have protection. The coLmtry is not sweet with people who haye money outside-nobody cares about coming to invest here, ancl after passing this Bill it will make it more repugnant to people outside to invest in the State at all. vV e are sighing for people with money to come here and give employment, and this Bill is just on a par with most Bills passed by the present Govern­rnent) debarring people from cominK here, and penalising others who aro here who own land. It is the greatest sin in tho world to owu land, but it is not the slightest use trying to make any alteration in this Bill, and the present Government will have to take the responsibility of their action.

'I'he PRE:VIIER: The hon. member's lamen­tation is characteristic of the moorl iu which he is rccentlv found. H0 secs in this Bill another means of frightening capital away. (Government laughter.) Nothing can be pro­posed b_,. this side now but what is described as another effort by the Government to frighten capital a way. '\A;' e are not trying to frighten capital away from the country, but we are tr_ying to ensure that the people who own property in this State shall discharge

1905-5 I

their duties as property-mvners. Certain h:f!ds noon which rates are due to local authontJGS t~ maintain roads and carry out other local '.vorks for the benefit of those properties have allowed rates to fall into arrears for a period of seven vem·s. L:nder the Local Authorities ..=-\et pcs~;;eJ by t.he hon. m0mber's o'\vn.Govern­rncnt those properties wore advertisGd for sale but the form of ac!Yortisement not1fymg the '"ale was defective in certain non-essential particnlars which the court requires to be in­cluded. Substantially, the notice was suffiment, but the court has held that thee sales are in­Yalicl b" the lact that these particulars were not <riven and the sales have been annulled. ::"-low~ wh; is at fault? Not the local authority, not th0 people who purchased, but the law rlopartmcut of this State .. who supphed the authorities with incomplete forms. The law department is a department of the State, and tho ::State is essentially responsible, and ought to remedy the defect in tlw interests of the local authorities. [Hon. R. PHILP: This won't remedy it. J Yes, this will remedy it. Now, the hon. gentleman has taken up the cause of defaulting property-owners. In wh':'t sense is the defaulting property-owner ent1tled to· the consideration of this State? He knows the obligations of his property; he persistently refuses to discharge thorn, and in taking up thelt aHitucle he certainly forfeits any claim he haJ. [The Hmm SECRETARY: He has had eevcn years' grace.] Yes. The hon. gentleman says his agent muy have embezzled money, and the proporty-ov,'nor ren1ains unaware for seven years that his agent is embezzling his funds. l Hon. R. PHILP: Plenty.] It IS preposterous. Tho people who bring down this amendment of tho principal Act on their shoulders are the pnple who studiously evade their duty, ami thov are entitled to no sympathy at all. ::;Iy synipathic., are with the local authorities, rcho are suffering now, not by reason of any fault of their own, but by reason of the neglect of the Department of Justice of this State, and we arc entitled to place them in the posi­tio'l in which they believed themselves to be under the law. Thut is the pmposc ancl object of the Bill, and I think the House will have no hesitation whatever in passing it.

:\lr. NIELSON (Jlu·;gm t): To a gTcat ex­wnt I ac;ree with the leadm of the Opposition, that th~ \Yholo que,;.tion of the p(JWCl' given t.o loca: authorities by the principal Act of 1902 should bo recorHiderecl, but I differ with him as to tlw reconsideration. I think lucaJ authorities should get rnuch irnpler mmms of selling than they hase at the prese•1t time. I think the Bill i.s not only jw;tifiod, but it is a prop0r thing for the Cov{'ITllTIClJt to come alon'

0 and see that no local authority who,

so far as possible. has carried out th<> law cor­rectly, should suffer through any inforn1ality. When they go to the Department of Jus­tice, OY{~r -,,:hich they hn~, c no contJ·ol: they cannot instruct the registrar of the court and have nothin~ to do \vith it, and the departn1e!1t chc'"""' the course which tlwv adopt. The cm1se.quc.c-e of this is that au ~action ;nLs ill­stituted in the. Supremo Court in onf' pa.rticu­liLr cas,o on 9t.h December last, m1d the in­formality which wa, pleaded wa.s upheld. aml the local authority was mulct.ed in damag·es and costs. Instead o( extending the date to the 1st )J ovember next year, as suggested by the leader of the Opposition, I think it should go back to the 9th September last, the date when the li'ull Court decision wac; given. [:\Jr. HAWTHOR:-1: 8th September, as a matter of fact.] Anyone who looks at the clause in the principal Act which

Mr. Nielson.]

1650 Local Authorities Act [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

this Bill is int<.mded to amend. y·ill find that the fornJ.aliti-e~ are nece.s:s<..n·y. a.nd anyone who has anytbiug to do.with local governing bodie,s will lnto\v that in verv ill[l,nv r:tse:-; the banks of the local .!..rovcnJinQ·"tJOdic,~ do 11ot eveu con­tain the infOrmation ,_rcqnir€d or Hot :"O fullv. But I hold that ·,.o long· as the ~ocal authoritie~-.,' booko, the notice' that are puh!ish€cl. and the warrant ·which is gi~ en to the bailiff, contain ·suffici011t pa.rticulars to identify the l<LutL it is uil that is required. \Yhon you sell mortgag·e or l€asc land, you have not to c~mply' with s~wh strict forrnalihes, so long as the par­ticulars are sufficient to identify the land. And €ven in the case decided ag·ainst th€ local authorities it was not contended that the particulars giv€n did not identify the land. lmt simply through an omission to com­ply with the mere -t formality thn ca.s€ wont against the local authority. \\-ho suffers'! The onwr ratepay€rs in the local authority. fThe PnE~IIER: :\lcn who ha,-e paid their rates.] Men who haYe not only paid their rates towa.rds tlu; upkoep of roads and other works. Lut in many C<lses inteJ'e;;t on over­drafts nec{}s.:-:.itated bv rea::;on of nuu1v of the ratepa.ycrs ncglFctiilg to pay th0ir r~t.es. ln rny o1..-n diRtrict ono local authoritv ha~ alJO·ut 800 properties which ha.,:€ been un-paid for y€ars, and have run up a hank anc! pay interest and redemp-tion PYf'l~ year. _1_j' thO:'f' people \'·ho hav0 ~,tudiou~ly asoir1Pd pa~~int~ hitherto \V('l'e com-pelled to thejr rnone-.:,' ·would be l0ft for of nu.;,in~- in-

ad,~t~rt~isjng principal Act

s~JnCJHlf~d ln that dirC'ction. I 1nado behalf of a local authority, and £6ii• to aclvertiH' a I i st of pro­h the 1wPn in a.lTC'.ars

the

:3ay that a. n1au O\vns a p1ece ot land in a local

not 1:.1. le;.;al, is there not a rnoral to 1nake inquiric~', D.llcl if h~

to do tha.L ; or , F'.'Cll :years, -oxtoud uur SJ mpadn- to hin1 a.nv

he has negl-ectf:'d to recove'f 1noncy tn:der an oYcrdue prorni;.;sory-noto for ~ix years': This Bill is rightl: intToduc"2d in the. interests of innocent per,,ons and th€ public, as 1£ ::whons are. allo-wed to be brought against tho local anthonty by reason of some omission on the part of the registrar, the people will haYe to suffpr. It does not g·o quite far onotwh hut pm-haps the scope of the Bill will not a!i';,,; any am€nclrnent in the direction I have indi­cated. I hope the ?>linist€r will accept an amendment to refer the elate back to the date of the decision of the Full Court, as no one will b€ prejudiced. That would be as just and equitable as leaying it as it stands hut to postpone the date for another twelve' months, as .sug,a·estecl by the leader of the Opposition, rs maov1sahle, although, as a member of the

!€gal profession, I oughl; to thank [4 p.rn.J him for th€ suggostion. \Ye

should study th€ int€rests of the public in this particular Bill, a$ "try on" actions may be brought on account of this what I might call inereet informality, ove; which the local authorities have no controL

[1!1r. Nielson.

Mr. :\IACARTNEY (Too7Dono): This amend­ing Bill is certainly much clearer than the one we had before us previously--clearer in the title _and abo clearer in its provisi_ons. rrhe last Bill was double-barrelled in Its Dffect. It was a validating, Bill in one part., and an amending Bill in another part. There is no question as to what is intended b} the present Bill. I carmot altogether agree with the leader of the Oppo,itiou -when ho says that the Act of 1902, so far as it gave the local authorities power to selL should not have been passed. It was a very proper power to gin1 at that time, because it was just then that the endowments were reduced, and the local authoriti€s were hardly pressed. There was a great amount of arn,ars of rates in the hooks, and it was thought that if these could he utilised it would make up for the reduced endowment. I certainly think that the local anthoritih, especially those in and around the principal towns of the State, welcomed tbat Act, and these powers were fairly and reason­ably exercised, and resulted in much aclyan­tage to the local authorities, Of that there can be no question. But if these powers are exercised from time to time they have an effect on thn value of the real estate in and around the city. They were taken in instal­ments, and we had sales of land advertised fror:n week to weok. That might not be a desrrable state of things, but it was desirable that these arrears of rates should be wiped out. There a large arnount of arrear8 of Tates ovving, the econon1y practised by so1ne of the local authoritiPs prcvent''fl their rate-hooks l-;eing kept ia order aud l'atej collected fro1n year to year. It is right that the local autho­ritie~ should have some cbance of clearing up their books to elate,. I think that the Act. of 1901 embodied a proper principle. \Vith re­gard to validation, personally I think it ought to l:-o entered upon somewhat slowly. It is a dan~··orous thing at any tin1e to grant these powers, and one only justified in exceptional circumstancr·s. In this Bill we find that the validation asked foe is extrenw to a degre·e. Tho 1902 .t-\.ct contains a nurnbor of provisions :,rhich rnust be exercised in effecting a sale. After the rates ha Ye been unpaid for seven

or longer, the clerk of the local authority to :;end to tb P reg-istrar of the District

nearest thjl land in respect of which the rates are payabio a certificate of the total amount of Tates and interest thereon clue. Upon receipt of the certificate the rec:istrar shall forthwith publish once in the (Jow;-:nnunt (Jazettc and in some new:::;papcr a notice of sale. And it further makes provision that-

If any proprietor, mortga~ee, cnenmbrauee, ies~ee, or trnstee of any lan(] has previously rcgi_.;;tercd himselt' as sueh by no•icc in ·writing sent by rcg-ist~rell letter, in re·<pc<·t of any l~nd. in the otli('e of the lof'al a,nt'ho­rity (\\Thkh regi~trntion tlw Jocxl fmtllority shall rerog­nise and rc(~ord). a like notiee shall be sened npon hiln at the instanee of the registrar.

Then the same "'€CGion points ant how the war­rant of execution had been dealt with, and how the sale should he co,rriecl on. \Vhat does this Bill say ?

1\o sale of land or of any estate or interest therein made or purporting to hnve been made under tlle pl'o­visions of this subcti ... ·ision of this .\et shall be rendered invalid merely b~' reason of any failure to comply 1vith any of the said proviswns.

The Local Authorities Act says that certain things shall be done, but this Bill says that it is not necessary to comply with any of those sections at all. Is that a reasonable valida­tion? The Home Secretary could not have

Local Authm·itin Act [16 NoVEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1651

gone into the matter as fully as he should have clone, otherwise I am inclined to think tho Bill would have Le~n verv differcut. \Yhv not v.-ipe out tbe ·whole of tf1o~o section.-~ cor;~ tl;ueJ in tlH ~\,_;t of 1902, and do awav vvith t1Jr' 1](:-~--~~Bit:v t() acln_•rti:.:;e in the (J-u::rttt" aud a ml\v,;papcr1 \Y~ have a set form in one Act ,. hich su) .• the local authority must carry out, and in another Act we will havo a section >vhich says that. notwithstanding that those forms at'P not carried out, the sale shall still bo valid. Then it is also proyided in clause 2 tlutt-

~o action or other proceetlilJg shall he or be taken again:.:;t any snd1 onrchrli!oer as at'nresaid tP: reat~on of any failure to comply with any o! the ~aid~ provisions. or ot' any omission, irregnh-trity, Jn::;ufrleicncr, or in~ aemn·acy in the oh-:ervalH'.e or an.Y of the ~a1d pro­Yitdons, whether in :-nllstaucc or in form.

If it was validated for an error in the form, anyone could understand it, but this Act also includes the validation for an error in sub-

~nrely i::i uo prPcedcnt in the of this or anv other State fer a

of this sort. lJOt y;rcpo~e to ckwl with :-:.ug,~e..;tion rnaUe the hclll. rn~mlJer for

yet tc} the last sectio!l. n-:!ay other rwnding. L~\Jr.

L under;-;talld that tlwn~- are liOIH'-]

an action pending at the present is likely to be heard within the

and the parties concerned have rig-ht to be protected by this

people who are to benefit by it. pending, a.nd in the

1'\.-TD haYc an .... !\.et under perfectly unnc'cussary to re­

. qu('~tlo11 tc !Je \VOUJd

n~hole Bill m·

~,-Ir. H YL),l:\D (Uympit): 'The local authori­put to too much expense altogether

lut-vo to recover arrears of rates, reason I >shall support this Bill.

~.EC'lU..;T_-\.HY: This Bill is to vali­o£ htncl.] ''{os it cloes a way

It not be neces~ a1nount of advortise­

.iu conneotio11 with it. Bill ,;ill be to reduce 1nake it easier for the

these propmtics. That direction. because the

\Yitb that :.Oal rer at c•thcr. Th.Pre i . ..., a

the :-;ales of n!.'opPr1 v to point out,< and 'I

attention l:o a weak-At present time property onc~tenth of its p1·opor value. the Opposition mentioned a

ca.:;e where the Tiaro Shire Council sold pro­perty for a few pouncls that was worth £1,000. \Vhy should not the local authorities get per· mission to buv that land themselves. or to put on a resoi·ve price at the sale, and not allow the land to be sold for a few pounds wheu it i.' worth over £1.000' I hope t.lw Home Secretary will take this suggestion into consideration, and, if possible, put it into the Dill.

The SPEAKER : I must ask the hon. gen­tleman not to wander away from the Bill.

::\Ir. HYLAXD: I want to point out a weakness in the present Act, so that the Minister might give attention to it when he is amending the Bill in other particulars. I

am sony that he did not take advantage of it when he was introducing the Bill, as it '.vould do away with that difficulty in future.

:\lr. HA'S'TilORX (Enoggera): When the fanner Bill v. as before the llouoe I did not 1·ef<:n· to \vhether it \Ya:; in ordc•r or not. I thought it \vas a rea:,onallle thing that the Uovel'Ilnwnt :':.hould take the eariie~t oppor­tuHit,y of ~eti'ing right certa111 rni~ta.k(:~,i that lutcl !Jepn r11ado l:v ::;on1e off1c1als in the Crown Law Offices, I u"nderstand. I am more con­cerned £tlJout the loca.l authorities than any­thing else, Lecau'e if the local a.uthorities have done eyerything fairly a.11d in good faith, entirely without any ultarior motive, they should be placed i.n a proper position. I think ·Lhat clause 2 might be altered to make the ~'-et mier cmlv to ',ales that havo hitherto taken place. 'so far as I can see, it will apply to all sales in future, and that might be rnade rnore clear. Tlwre is no doubt aUout it tlmt the pm• er of sale under the 1902 Act has re ulted moro offectiYely in ia>•our of local aufJOrities, although the sales themselves have uut proved as l'enlune.ratid~ as n1ight have L0·ell w i. -dwd. But the fact of ha.ving that povYer tu sell Lrou.;.sht a good deal of 1noney frorn peoplL• w lH> rtot otherv;ise ha Yl)

paid. [.\ir, RYLA,\ID: some cases they did 110L ;~·-et the co;-,t of the udn-'rti:)elnents.j ·rhey

- bnt tho. po\H.:r of frotH murt.' .. ;a6 ~P::>

that the local in bnt for this

TlH! q1H~~tion vn1s. did t1lt; k'l.!:i..,J:ttnn~ inlt uU. tb:tt the of the noliik'ttiull of JI<Lr-

:·.:lwulcl lJo a r'01Hli1 iou to .. lidity of tl!e •rllr:- It hatl V• l tll:1~ the f<~rrn~tl 1JOti('0 ot t'ale as 1ullmvcd

tile f1Jl'l!l of ccrtilieate nnp:wlt:ttc~"

of opillwn 1ll:t~ ttw to 1JL ilJJp::.:ntti\'t:, allll

to p'.l\J\I"'h JJ,trtl(..'lliHl'::\ was a liOJJ-COlttJ!li:tllC· w1th tlteeu:u~tue11t atHl t1lC'refon~ fat~tl to llw tile

•!e. Tlte ef de conld not have S;t,d to btve J;e,•n tG cJt'ect pro~ct'ihetl iJy 1lw :l.d. \Ylwn it o;uittcd all l'(;fr·F0llef; to tlle rc;.;-i-:tprcd propn~tor, Hte ~;mn1. tl1f· ( .~rlilic.ttt... nt td lu YollutJL'. :wcl folio. 'file court \\'et of tlH:l'dO!'(;. tllat tl~e :--:wmnuns mu:o:;t bt-; with cost."!.

It has, therefore, become necc"sary to alter the Act, and the local authorities have re­cci ved uotif e of this particular }-}.ill. Under tho circurustauces, l tliiuk the Bill is a good one, aud is likely to be of considerable benefit to the local authorities.

.\ir. I30l:CHARD (Brisbane South): I am very glad the Government have introduced thi' Dill. Section 243 of the Local Authori­ti2s Act of 1902 proYidcs that, if rates are seven yours in arrears, the local authorities may sell the land. and the various local autho­rities have availed themselves of this power. In consequence of 1nistakes \vhich have been made !Jy Government officials, the local autho­rities have found themselves subjected to actions at lav.' for damag-es by reason of the non-compliance with some purely formal pro­vision of the section. It is advisable to give the number of thn deed and also the county and parich in which the property is situat~d, but we can hardly expect them to advertise

M. r. Bouchard.]

1652 Infant Life [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

the volume and folio in which the deed is Tegistcred, and in n1any cases that in~o_rn1ation has been omitted. The local authontles have supplied those particulars to the proper ofllcer, and it is throug-h his fault that they have not been advertised. I do not suppose any ratB­payer can reasonably say that he has been subjected to any injury by reason of the action of the local authorities in thi-- respect, and, as any darnazc 'chat may have been done has been attributable to the nedect of a Govern­ment offici:;!, it is only rig·ht that the Uo­vernment should pa'" this measure at the earliest possil>le moment. I can hardly under­stand anv hon. member opposing· the passage of the B{ll. At the same time, I agree with a gTeat deal of ·,,hat was said by the hon. mem­ber for Too1.vong \Vith reference to clause 2. If prm·ision is made to validate sales and in­demnify local authorities in connection with sales that have been already effected, that is all we should proYide for. It is right that protection should be given in connection with purely formal irrcs>;ularities to validate sales in the future; but the clause proposes to vali­date all sales in which the provisions of the Act of 1902 have not been complied with, "whether in substance or in form." That is p·oilto: too far and 1 trust it "\Yill be rcmedie.c._l ;;l c~mmittce: I shall have much pleasure in supporting the Bill.

Question put and passed.

The committal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

ALBERT RIVER, BlJRKETOWN, AND LILYDALE TRA;\l\',~AY ACT A:\lEND­~lENT BILL.

]\IESSAGE FROM COUNCIL.

Tlw SPEAKER announood the rccBipt of a message from the Council returning this Bill without amendment.

FERTILISERS BILL.

11ESSAGE FROM CouNCIL.

The SPEAKER also announced the receipt of a message from tho Council returning this Bill with an amendment, in which they invited the concurrence of the Assembly.

On the motion of the SECRETARY FOR ) .. GRICuLTURE (Hon. D. F. Denham, Oxluy), the message was ordered to be taken into consideration, in committee, to~morrow.

INFANT LIFE PlWTECTION BILL.

SECOND READING.

The HOME SECRETARY: It is superfluous to say that this Bill deals with a subject of groat importance, and that there is a great need for it. In a young country like Queens­land, and, in fact, Australia generally, it goes without saying that we cannot build up the country without population, and there are special circumstances in connection with the country which should make us particularly anxious to see tho popnlation increasing. Tak­ing into account our proximity to the densely populated countries of Asia, and the fact that \ve. have a large area o£ unoccupied country,

[.Mr. Bo1tchard.

unless we reali•e our position and make some· effort to settle a European population in the country, it will inevitably be occupied by some race of coloured aliens. ReoJising that, we can only come to one conclusion, and that is· that it is nece:vary to conserve what popula~ tion we haYe. \i\ie must look carefully after

our assets. [Mr. PAGET: The Bill [1-.30 p.m.] should be passed in the interests

of mercy as well.] Undoubtedly tl,at is a consideration, but the paramount consirkration should be thc1 national aspect of tho question. I am sorry to say that in a C''untrv which is clamouring for population we h>t\e been guilty of a culpable amount of inrliiTercnce in regard to the health and the mortality of our young children. Queensland has been sluggish in the matter. Victoria, I'iow South Wales, and South Australia have alrcaclv de "Jt with the question, and South Austn\La has done so very effectively. The> principal defect in what we have already done lies in the fact that wo have thrown the bur­den to some extent upon the local authorities, and thev have shown themselves rather indif­fol·cnt {;l the matter. The provisions of Part V HI. of the Health Act are singularly defective so far as the protection of children is concerned. Section 152 provides-

Xo person ~hnll retail! or re<'cive for hire nr n \Yartl more than one infant, and in c::'-"<: of t\Tin:-:, morf' t.l1an t\vo infant,-;:. nndt•r tl1e age of one year f:ll' the Jmrpo~e of r:.ur:!-ing ormaintamiu; .. : sndJ infaut:3 apart from their pan•nts for a lm1ger period tl.t:;tn 1wtnTy-hnn· honr:". cx­{~ept in a hon~e \Yhieh ha::; been lT J;istel·ed for tbe }HUIJOses of tll\s Act.

That is to say, any person taking charge of only one infant need not register at. all. If that infant dies, that person may take another infant. If it dies, another infant may be talmn in, aud the succ0ssion may be continued acl in/in1:tum. \Vhether ~~ou call it a nursing ho:r:-ne or a baby farm, half a dozen or a dozen m­fa,nt, mally die one after the- otlwr, and yet there is no power to compel registration. That is the very height of absurdity. (Hear, hear!) The Commissioner of Public Health told me five or six months ago of one case in which he knew of four children having died in a house of this kind one after another, and yet absolutely nothing could be done to cmn­pel the registration of that home. And that is only one case out of many. It is unfortunately a fact that the local authorities haYe not been alive to their duty in this respect, and I am sorry to say that there does not seem very much chance of urging them into any in~ cre:ased activity. They seem to be possessed of the idea that their functions consist in patching roads and bnilcling cuh·erts. [Mr. JENKIX~O:'\: I do not think that is putting the case justly in respect of all of them.] Not with rospc,ct to all of them, but I think it is true in regard to a great number of them. We have, of course, to remember that local government is yet. in its infancy, and vvo can scarcely ex­p0ct the local authorities to be alive to their duties in this respect, seeing that many of their members have not had verY much ex­perience. [Mr. JENKINSOK: And their ser­vices are purBly voluntary. J I would like to be absolutelv fair to thBm. In view of their inexperience: wo can scarcely expect them to take a Ycry exalted view of tho functions of loc.:d authorities. The statement was made some time ago that nearly 50 per cent. of babies born in South Brisbane died and the council's he.alth ofllcBr reported- '

Having reg:u·d to the vrry large proportion of jJ1egi­timate children among the deaths reported, I would

I;ifant Life [lG N OVEMBEll.] Protediun Bill. 1653

sugge:"<t that eYcry woman havin~ charge of an infant not her own should bt~ rcgi~tered. BUd :-;houlcl be suhjeet to supervision, eithH Irnltl a m;m or t'rom a spc ial\y appolllit:clln~•pcctor. as ctone in Sydney.

In tl1e l~ppcr House an amendrnent has been intr<>ducod into the Bill re.<mrdin:· a matter that rc{Juircs to bo dealt ~vith . .._I refer to illegitin1~atP children. I hopo ihis 1vill not lo dL alt '•' ith in anv puritanical soirit. I consider that children \';'ho health\,. a.nd Yigorons

to the or ou.t:;ht to bz;, or illr>(~·itin1atc.

and arc ent.itl·ed The more

not reduce their Bill provision is

rcspcmsihilltics upon ..:-l:n unscrupulous

of a ,\ronlan n:allv eveutu­

lwYe no rr1eans o£ Jayi;1g ba.uds compcliin"' him to bear th" oh~in<.; upon. hirn. lie. n1ay

pit;able condition. be~orc tL(~ birth

that will often left in her

at a as well <: ~ h<'r

rn, ~~c_~, .m1d . Cl'til1C·. 1lll'.) ll11~UUI1lty frotYl re­

and pulli~:ilnncnt also phLC1·-; a prc-UfiOll the of UlJsc:rupulouS· DlPll.

v :=:~l that. if tlwy aTe getbn~ a\' ay in tirnf· .. theY \vith the result that the:,r 1llt~cnc inlou;-:; and carelf'~~:s

that . result from tboi.r this confi.nenleiJt e·x-

up ( .:111 l'o rccoyercd. ThcAJ .rnedical t'·XpPnscs, nursing, and atten­

for two month.s after birtl] takes place. any case, under the Act evidence must be

also of the condition of the child. Hon. mernl;ers will, of cours·e, realise that under the present la1v a 1nan responsible for a v;.Torrwn's '.rouules cannot be touched until after the birth of the child. Under the provisions of tlns 13111 we E'ndcavour to lav hands on him ileforc. [:\Jr. JENKINSON: It !s ra.ther a riskv thing to do.] There is a certain arnount 0£ risk attached to it, but in the vast majority of

we may be fairly sure that the evidence mother) and the other necessarv evi~ to establish paternity will enable" us to

put onr hands on the right rnan. Of course I adrnit there are eases under the pre:3ent .... Li...._ct under which an innocent man 1nay haYe- b) suirer, but that will be the case under anv ~~et. For tlw information of the Ilouse, '[ give a statement I havo here concerning the nwrtality of children in Queensland) and par~ ticularly in Brisbane. All over the world the death rate of children under one year old is co1nparatively largo-about 114- per cent. corn~ pared to 5 per cent. in children who live from CllC to t\VCllty }{-~ars. lt is quite evideut

1 thPIL

that if you can tide children over the first tiYelvf~ n1onths, an in1n1ense saving of life can Le effected. Needless to say, the mortality rate of bottle-fed bahios is very great-I be­lieve it amounts to about 65 per cent. vYith c·egard to Queensland, I find that in 1903, out of 1:2,621 childrf'n under one year old, 1,513 died. Of these 1,513, 623 died of inflammatory diseases of the stomach and intestines. The percentage of deaths of all children under one

vear is very nearly 12 per cent-----11.99. In the summer weather, at the end of October and g-oing on till February, the mortality from diarrhcca, principally in children, is very rife, reachillg t:o ma.xinlltrn in Decernber, when the weather is hottest. At that time milk is most liable to pollution and infection and to be­come sour. Now, this is the disease which is reallv the great cause of mortalitv amongst chikireu-i~fantile diarrhcea. It "is princi­pally due, I believe, to food infection. It is a remarkable fact that breast-fed mfants arc relatiye]y exempt from this trouble. In a series of sixty infants who died from this disease only G.6 per cent. had been breast-fed. The remaining 93.4 per cent. had been wholly or partially fed on other food. In Queens­land, in 1904, I find there were 14.082 children unckr one year old, of 1vhich 1,012, or 7.67 per cnnt., died. Here is a most remarkable state­l!lont: ln November, 1904. 50 per cont. of thE; cleaLhs in South Brisbane., amongst children, were illegitimate children_ With the_)'p exc:-t:ptimls, ull tho.;;;e died frorn urn.;tro-

a disease due to those children not ha1·ing milk entirely, or not at all. Dr. vYield, secretary of the British Medical Associ­ation, Queensland Branch, says-

tn the hr;.;e JWOJIOl iion of illp·~Himaie not \Ynnwn llavin.'~ nt' an

not her mn1 snlJjPett d to by ri lli'Jllieal llUHt or a

a~ \s dntH~ in ~Tdtw -, Xmv b~- a \HJm:m in:;pectnr, -as lwc,; been Victoria~

na~drn~cntPritis Rn(l \1int'l"ll(_Pa ln int'a11t~ is dnc. not only to the atiminl~tratlon of ilJipnre mi!k to 1nt'aur",, lmtv to tlH~ !:'Uh~tit ntion foi' lllill-;: of footh• young jnfant._ :11'C utterly nnable to di!-!·e.:.;t··- · arrow~

root bi~enit~. :mit :,;otne of the foorl~. I~mo~ )'(llH'P, or pon·rtL o1· c~u·clt s . ..;uP,S". nn tlte part or the fo:<tPr~mothCI' m· Ot thP moth n.; 1llftkr snbstitnte thc~c for tllt~ natural rootl of the Eyen pure ('OW's milk, nnk:-:s dilute<'l an<l "'iVil h a, sm~1ll amount of sugar added, will not suit a c11:1~1 of le . .;;s :hem six mouth'-', but 1Yill tenrl to ean~e votllitin;r :llld diarrllcca.

.. :\.s I moutj~med jr:;:.:t no'.v, there are in the Hea1th .. A. et provi.:·don::; for the regi~t.ration of the'3e nursing hmnes, Lnt practically those J-lrovisions are inoperati \·e. I had some inqnirie~ rnade the other day with reQ"ard to tho;.;;e bomes, and ,-~s to whethl'r · regiclter~ were kept. In Balrnural no registers were kept. They hnd 11ever heard of one. In Coorparoo a,nd Stephen~• there \Vere no regi:5te.n; kept. .At Bri:..;1::~ne and South l~ri:;bane there \VeL" two, and at ldo\\'Ong there v.'<.-t~ on1y one. I have a "t,tlement by Dr. Cbtworthy which is very internsting-, ;~ncl the brmefit of which I will gi,·e to the House. He says-

In accon1;mre with Y\ilU in:-:trnetirm . ..;,. l have the hononr to t-inhmi.t a rl{port on rile infant lUOl'tality oecnrrinp.: iil the ~outh Bri~bane di . ..;t/lct flnrillg :\ovem­ber ln~t.

Tl!e mo;.;;t s1 rildr;g fact in the return ohhlincd is that nearlY 50 m~r eent. of tllc• llea,tll~ wel'c tlw~c (Jf illegiti­mate ·Cl!ilt1ren.

lt i:-; obvions that the of an illegitimate ehild are s1Hall. It not onlY 1l;~pri'. er1 ot it:-: natural

abu Jose::: a ltJ')thm:'s l 1re. the gcn.-..r>d history of unfortuwJte babie:-; lJ!-;ing tlmt, "\Yll n aiHJttt two wcPk~ old, lhcy arc han(k'l OYCl' tn "'iYOlDClL

)'H' th,~:l~~~\~-i~~·r:'"~~l~r:~~~~\~~~eu ::;wa~!n~n/(~~)~_l, wllich

tht:\' eannot dJg"( ~t. a1Hl \Yhf'n tlwy ery frmn pail1fnl dJ-~P8J·~ia, are with :in or 1antlanum to l\eev tllPm quif't. Tbc nat~1ral !"E'qnf:_nc-c is that the ehi11!rcn dt"v·~lop ~n~tro-entcnti~ awl (lJe, iu mo~.,_ cast-3 les:-: than a year after birth.

\nth three exceptim1s. all children died from L ·Q entcriti:-o: a rt'"'e•t·e · ,:t~ conYincingly

~~~~n- by tu~'' I, '~cpntation of doeto1s to :nr. Deuilam is due can~c-; ana, fromthean"'wers the varions doct.ol'~ :tttcn,1ing tlle'e children h:tve kindly ginm m.e, I tinrl that the ehi!Urcn either did not htl\'8 brea::l.t milk, or that it was ~nppleu10nted by some other kind of food.

Hon. P. Airey.]

1651 I11fant Li(e [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

Tbe remedy for 11tis ~t~tte of things is plainly to give the childrPn ~nitalJle food when. from varion~ cause-s, they are nna ble to o;Jtaiu lJr~ast milk; bnt-, the applica-tion of tl1e reme(h is not so In Xew York and otlwr large cent.rr:s 1A the:/ l!aYc~ labora-tories where enw·~1 milk as nearl.Y n::- po:-.siblc to the composition of hnman milk. :-tnd sol(l in a:irth~ht bonles, one nwal in each hot.tln: 1mt tltH.t, of enurse, is ont or the rcnch of the poorer cla~~e~, amow.t whom these death~ chic!ly oeenr.

H~tvin~ regard to the very lan.;e proportiou of illegiti­mate~ children amo1:g tLe den1 hs n·eonled. I would suggest tlmt every wom;uJ havin;:; (·barge of au iut'allt not nm· O\Vn t'hould be re~h-tcred, and be ~nhjc:•t to ~mpervi~ion either from a mf~llit~nl IUan or t'l-om a spocially-appointetl in.~}lt'Ctcr, as i!:' doue in Sydney,

\Vith regard to the Bill itself, clause 4 is the definition clans<?'. There i::) on1:y nne point in that \vhicl1 ha.s given rise to snrne rnis­un~e~·s~~tndit!?· an~ t~l~.t i~ witl: n·gard to ~he defimtlon of re~ ..... hve~~- ~ Then~ ha:-; t>een :1n un­pre~sion abroad, circulated by one or two State 110\Y:::paper~, that it is the intenti.m 1nnler thicl <\.et to make relative·• re:::pnn.-ible fot the C')St of the children, but that is not so. That defillition is nnly given on <Lcconnt of \vhnt app~ars in the fir::~t e::lan:-...: relating to nnr;-;ing lv 1nt ~. It is specified then· that the part nf thi.< Act shall not extend tn the relative:-; or la,vfnl guardian::; of any infant. ret11ined by ~nch reb.ti \·es or gnar­dia.nB. That it1 to .-.:ay, th"" rdatin-'.;;; (lf any child '" rlefined in this de5nitinn arA not to be subject to the ordinary in"!JE"Ccion. :For instance, ~uppo~e <.t girl has a,n illegitirnatf' child which ~h8 wi:-:ht>s to pl1co ·with hee ~ister. The sister way ta.ke charge of the cl1ild, ~tnd yet, at the S:Jirne time, her hou~e would not corne. under the dt·finition of a nnr . ..,ing benne. In elau::;e Hit. is prnvide'1 that n nrsing- horn PR and occupier·: are to be registered. Anybody nuh,in~ (,r mai~rta,in­ing an infant a,piLrt from ib0 lJarents for a longer period than forty.t->ight bours, or any person adopting such an infant, is to have the home and also tlw occnpier rE'g·istAred. I would call the attention of hon. mem.bf:'I'R to snbcl:-tnse (:2), which iti somewhat important, a.u(l which pro­vides th:1.t an~\r pnyrn~nts or re\varrl.s vvhich are to be 1nade can ~~nly be rrwde by 1wrindical instaltnentR in a CFrta.in vvay. The objteG of that i·~ t(, Htop the praetice which prevails, and has prevailerl in all larg-e citie,, of paying down a lump snrn of £fl, £10, or £20-« practice which has been very fertile in causing evil. To be perfectly frank, I am not quite sure whether it 'vi ll remed~r the evil, hn~ it is an attempt in that direction. In dautie 7 the n1anner of r, gistra'cion is specified. It i~ alt:o p~(.)Vidt·d-and I think hoo. HH-'Inlwr·s will agree vnth rne that the proviHion i.':l a. ver_y wise and burnane nne-tha,t there shall be no fee pa.yab!e for regiRtra.tjon ur renewal, ;,_nd for that reason the proper individual vdll have no reason for refnsing tn 1·egi~·:ter or renew rc>gis­tration. In claw3o 8 the power of refnsal to regbter is BJwcified, and the rea~ons for refusal to register may t'" either the character or ability of the applicant or the unsuitability of the localit.y in which the home is situated. Under claus.e D we deal with the keeping of a roll of a nursery. It is sp ci5ed that proofs are to Le give 1 in regard to the narne, sex, aud age of the child, anu with regard to the resi­dence and occupation of the parent~. If the person handing in tbe child is a nmrrie<l woman particulars h'we to be gi 1·en as tn the perso~ from whmn thP child \vas rect>ived, a.nd also the name and occupatiun of her husband. In case of removal from the borne, particulars bane to be given as to the dates of rHmoval, the person by whom removed, an(l t:be residence of the per~on · and in snbclau.,e (-1) it is further provided that o~ the demand of a member of the Police Force,

[Hon. P. Airey.

with the tank of acting sergeant, the roll of any nun:ery horne rnnst be produced for in::;pection. Unrlr·r clanse 10, we r!e<>l with tbe duty and re8pOrHiLilities of rPglsteu•d persons. The_re are sptcific<-Ltions with regard to thr- provid1ng of propBr food, ctnd. with :regarrl to the state of the nur~ing benne..... [ l"Ir. JEJS"Kl_:-..·so:s': 1-Io"\Y dO yov define what constitute:-:; proper attd snfhcient foorl ?] ThH ;t()n, gentleman must i<:now tbctt \VB

could n1,t intrndrw,· a de1initinn nf propt-T food. The ins1Jeetnr \Vil! h;tv~l to go rouw~.' anri h.e rnay bt~ acc(IHJ panied :.t I.th'dical officer. lJ nder c1au:..e 11~ in c:u .. _.; ItPgleet of the regnl.ttim18 hmr been Jll'uYtn, d'~-~ Commi:<.·,ior1er 1-w .. ~ the lJOWf>l' nf removing nr-une:-; frun1 the register, and he hr:Fl alstl t~l ordt.~l' th c. r..:n1~1\ al df any child. In c:tse of rt Ji~tr tion tf:(~re is a ptHver of ilP!It: Lo the :zviini-tt>r, and hi-; decision is to be fi·.:tl anti conclw~h·e. L~ndPr cbn~e 12, if the pn.ymFnt:-:: Cl· ·1se to be the C~nnntif:~ sinner tnay deal witb tlH-' ch1ld. 13 is a, very jnlp(;r~ ~ntcl;~nKe, as dealing- witil tlH·C'i.USPs of dt'ath. 1n the cuse t•f Jeath of an iuL_nt5

'\Vlthin twenty~f:-tHl' honr~ ~'.n inque~t i.--; to be held, a11rl a. report 1n:ule to the ~\Iini~ter, and there i~ to he no buriul with~>nt a certif~ca.tt>. of the justict~ w}w atHhtlris(:S the burial. ..:-\.11 theo:;e saft:"gnarcb an; lH:L -:-::.-.:x.ry in ca:-;e of rTturdt l' or dEath hum malt:n·atuwnt, and in clau~e 1"-1 there is the n-'l'y wi~~e pl'tn•ision dealing \vith n~ce~q,J,ry fullll."!. ClclW··e J.?l i~ devoted par­ticnbrlv to tbe r~gistr .. tion of a.dojJted inhnts. [i\Ir. PAGET: That applies to anybodv who adopts a.n inLlnt wheLher a relativ·~ or not;._ ':rhat is \vhn.t. I nnder . ..;l-and to b~ the in­tention of the law. Under clauFJe lG we deal with the qne . ..:;tion that I d.i8cu~s ~d in rny o~,ening renutrks with regnrd to illegiti~ IYL• te jnfants ~md thP l'PIYH!ciies provicled, anci I need not go into it i1f!"<-tin. Clause 17 r-.pecifies that the not·ice nf birth nf an illegitirna.te child n1nst be given within three days, and nc)tlce of dPath of an illegitinlfl,i8 child mu~t be g1ven within twenty-f,nr honrs aftet• the death; bnt if the vlac8 when· the child iR kept is ont of the citv or town, H>ltice i"' tt) be given within one week. lf the occnpier of the house ;, the rnother, nntice mu:-;t 1w givt"ll ~t any time within two \Veeks after the cte,vh of thr: infant. Clause lH co11tains gener[ll provision-; stipulating- that offe!:derci under this ..:-'Let are not to he registered. Under clan se 21 regulations rr,ay be issued by tbn Governor in Crmn(·il. Clause 22 gives a justice of tlw pt aet~, in cat"e tbere i8 :tny rea~on to believe any per1:-lon hu. . .;; uffench'd ag~-:dnst the _!\_et, an:JwriLy t(t i~sue ::t .~e:1rch \V~trrant. Claust~ 2~i pr11Vi,~e~ for the gener:1.l penalty. I need b:uJly '"Y t.hat I ::sk the assistance of this House to l-Jas;;.; th1s mca~nre in tbe in terest.s of hunlalli0~", in the int n~-..;t::; of infant life, and in tbe interf:',-,t.:; uf tb,: Sta.\A. Tho~e who \Yere retl'p(msjhle i11r t;1e birth uf illegitimate children --and ille!.!·itituate children will be dealt with princip::lly mtr.ler thi< Bill-ohnuld be ma:le re­spon~ihle for rh~~ exppn.-;es attenrling theh· birth and aJterv. ards. I hnpe the Bill will be the means of introducing a new :-;ystenl that \vill be a credit to the Sr,atP, both in the interests of hurnar.itv and also in the interests of what <>nKht to be au ~increa.;;1: in the population. I nwve fhe second reading of the Bill.

HoN. R. PHILP : I can assure the Home Secretary that there will be no op­

[15 p.m.] pnsitinn to this Bill from this ,jde of the Honse. It is not a party

que . .,tion, and both side:": of the House are con­cerned in making the Bill as good as possible. The Bill has come from the other House, where it has been carefully revised, and it is better th:w most Bills we get our,elv-Ps. I c:tn assure the Home Secretary that we will assist him all

Infant Life [lG N OVEMBE!i.] Protection Bill. 1655

we possibly can to pa" the Bill through the House in the interests of humanity and in the inter<'sts of the popcllation of the State.

Mr. P AG ~:T (N.rtckny) : It is extremely rc~rettable that it is necessary, in a c:n1ntr:v like this, that such a ltleawre as this slwuld be brought before this Huuc, '', because we cannot f:hnt; our ey8s tn thP fac::. that a lc-rge number of the nnfortnna,te childTdl born out of wedlnck in this StatP diP-. I won1cl like in th:'lt conn,.·ction to read an extrac~ from the n~port of the vear 1\lO-!-OG of the Sucietv fnr the Preven­tion' of Crnelty to Children in Brisbane. On page 3, under the heading of "Xl3g1E·cte{1 Ci1ilclren," the repurt t:a.ys~

Your CounciL jn their annual report:-; fnT the last t,'iYO year!', h::tve e;,dlec1 ,,r;rions attention ro the im~reast-: of i1legitima"v anti inl'antilc mnralit.\· \Vithin the metro-politan re~istry (1istrict.. as lJy the Roci~trar-General'~ stati~tk~. ~lHnving thnt some clh·;triets 40 per cent. of children 1Joru dit~ witllill a of birth, :tnd the nrgrn1ry of the we agnin refer to stati:-<tir-; for current y'ear, '\Yhil'll ai~elose an c'\·en wor:'e (~ondition, as in ~o1ne di:.;tri".t:; tl1e pcrc.cntag-e has er:tchecl :k2·. TllP:se fignn~s are eloquent. fm• behind them there ~He appalling cases of snfl'rriug. cliscot~e. and wiJrul nu.clt.y, w; dis­closert in nnmerons CHses dealt '\Vith by rnu omcer::<. The figures :tl:so point must forrihly to 1he in;vlt)(1Hacy of the laws for the vrot.cction of children.

I think that every memher of thio HouRe, when they t:tke into consideration the tprrible mortality there i", especially awongst the ur1fortunate illig-itimate chi1dren that are llnrn in this city and other parts of the State, wiil gladly welconw this Bill, and not only welcome it from a national point of view as tE'Hding to increase our population, bnt also for the Hake of humanity. There is one provit-:lion in this Bill thut I an1 very jJlettsed to see, anrl that is that no fixed sun1 can be paid to any woman or person for taking charge of an il!Pgitim"te child. I am of the opinion that tbe payment of such fixed sums is an incentive to nmder. [:\Ir. LLslKA: \Vi!! this Inf:tnt Life Protection Bill stop anyone from rnaking gifts ?J I do not suppG:-::.e that it will stop the re!atires of the chilJren making giftK to the peoph'l who are looking aftPr these children, bnt the insertion of this provision \vill certainly have n, very gooJ dfect in a very great number of as it will make it impos-sible fur the person no\V make~ it n bn -iness -and an unwhole~orne bu,...ines:-)-of taking the~e unfortunate children in :t home on thP payment of a. fixed sum. '£hP fig-nres that I h:tve quoted are eloquent enough to ~h~'W that the t.irue has arrived for this. 'I'hev show that of all these unfortnnate children that are left in that way 40 per cent. of them die within the registerecl district of this city or locality. l do nut wish to refer to any Htatistws, because tLe figures have very ably and very plainly been given by the Home Secretary, but sonH-' n1nnth::; ngo 1 ::-..1.\V that the proportiun ;)f illegitimate children born in Brisbane last year vvas sotnetbing like 11 per cent. [:\lr. Boumr.uw : 11.27 per cent.) [The HO:.\fR 8IWRRTARY: A nurnber of thPrn came from the country.] I can understand tha,t a great numLer of the unfortunate mothers who are in this position rnay po~siOJy corne to Bris~ bane to be delivered of the cl1ild, Tbev come to a large city for the purposH of hiding their shame from their friends and telatives, and that can be more pffecti vely done whfjre there is a popnbtion uf 1:23.000 than in a town where there is a population of ab ,ut 400 or ;)00. 11y statement is borne out quite fully by the hon. member for Brisb,me South that the proportion of illegiti­mate children h1 l-3risbane ir; smnethinh between 11 and 12 per cent. It dues not matter whether the mother8 of those illegitimate cbil,]ren are resident' of Brisbane or of other pctrts of the State, who come to this city; they deserve jnst

as n1uch consideration frorn U'3, and frorn thfl rest of t,he country, as those children who are born in wedlock. I "" further, and I say thac they de.;:ervP. n. great deal more consideratinn. There ic provision in this Bill for the establishment. c:f nursi!1g h(•nw~, bnt in the interests of rllegrb" m"te chilrlrecr it would not b8 at all inadvisable if we Pshtlished a foundling ho<pital here. [Hon. I-L PHILP : There is one.] \Vhen I speak of a f-runclling- hnF:pital, T n1fmn an instituti~\n \vhere won1rn 'vho hrt,'e been unfortunr.tely led astray itnd bear i11Pgit.irnate childrt>n rnay hav-e the 1 ight to liVP and I he child cared for at thP hospnal. I knn\~ it may be arguPd t.bat snch an institution would !ead to g1·eab-•r immorality than exi.sts at presrnt, but I think, in the int(-orest.s of. these­chilch,?n's he .Ith and lil'e·, it would be w:se for the Governmenf-

1 as t:;onn n.~ possible, t 1) est~_thlish

an institution \Vbt re these unfortunate children wonltt bt~ t;tken c.J.re of practi{ ally fn\ln birth. \Ve know tha.t n:hen~ the~e institutions exist in other Stetes the parents ,_,r children that are left thPre have no further control oYer t.hen1, and qnitP right;, ton. There is anotber n~pect of this quPstion. These children, '.Vhen they are taken Cttt8 uf in a, State institution, are reinuvell fron1 the vicinn~ surronnding;-; in which they are placed uuder the preser1t system, and, ?c:ing Cflrefnllv brouo-ht up under State supervisiOn~ they \Vi.ll mak~ h-~ttt~,, eiti;.-;nns thfl11 they could pos~iblv In"J_ko when bruught up unr1el' the ~ur­roundlil~)~ in whi,...h tiwir parents live. \Ve know that is t-iO, 40 or 43 pr r cen (-.. of thoRe childn'n rli~ tv·dvn rnonths of their birth. In this Bill there is pruvb:ion ma.de for the inspection of the nursing home<, and I thi~k it shonld he nhsolntely C<>mpnlwry thnt the m­spec?or ,".fwn1d be a ff ma.l.::'. I do not mean to say that the female inspector sbnu1d bH a. doct.nr at a \'Pry high saL--1.ry, or thht she f'hnn\d h~ a very hin-hly-traiO>erl nur;e, but thi,, Bill provides that. Rh~ shm1ld lnt,k aJter the diet .:tnd s.anit.n.ry cnn-­diti.ons nndPr which the--e chi1dren a.re kept. I think a \voruan \Vho ha:-; had a lnrge experienee -g nlrttherly wrJITlan-will be thP. iH~'Jt to appoint to a pcsitio,; wch as this. [:\[r. Kmm: She is alRo t.n notic . .:; thA rr1:1nnEr in whir·h they are dre~,se l.] Yes.. The \·ery best vvmna n L) look aftt .. r tht'.SA children i~ a \VOinan who has borne and looked :deer children hrr.~-~ lf. In saying that, I arn not rdiecting in any W~lY ~1pon the trained nur.;:eR \~.'ho are single women, bur. \vhcr it is a question of e.'4tf',bli"'hing a for in; <nt:, the wmnan who has b.,d childrPn htr (1wn certainlv wuuld 1:}0\ ahlB tn do the work lKtter than thos8' who had not children. I wnu!d like the :VfinistH to take that ~u;-.:gestion into cnn1-.ideratiflll before the J)ill goes int<) co1nn1ittee. I wou1d likP, in connecti(1n vi'ith this n1atteo·, to read a letter signed '' :2\I11.,y .:\J cfJonnA!l," v.·hich had appeare.d in tb<e Ihtii!J Jf,til. Tile J:t,]y who \\role t.hJs letter i.'; ~.~erv ''"ell ktWVi'll in Brisbane, hnt I h:Jve nnt thn ;J!r;<.:.:urp pf knP'xing her nr::·seH. It aJ­r;ertred Sllmc>where in the begi:ming of OctohPr Ltst. Spt:c\king- r,f this Bill, which wa;; then in the Upper Flnn~e, the wriLer ~nys~--

Inspcction is to lJe made imperatiYe. and 1ery rightly so, for yon n~ny lHtYC tbc be~t proml~('S jn t.be world in a measnre. lmt if it is not. obligntOl'? for them to be carried CIHt t1Jey arc n~eles.<?. I tnt~t that the neec.s~ary· inspedinn wil(be provjded f'nr nwter t.he Aet itself. I wonld like to see a woman appointed. n~ nnfler the Health J.d. where a trained nu;·:-.c ha.s done so mnch to helv in eor:;.snmplioo. An inspeetion shonld he made b'\· one who unclc)r.-;tanct~ w1utt foocl, clc:anliuess, room, air. etc., mean to tile child. and oftf'l1 a littl(~ wmnan1y advice given b.Y one ill autlwrity would life and help people to perform t llei r d n t~T ; for it i~ no m eH ns YieinusnPss onJy whid1 dr.stroys the eluld, bnt that great. enemy of mankmrl, ignorance.

This lady refer' tu the in-prction m<ldP. hy a trained nnrRe nnder the Health Act. \V e had the plrccsure of [lerusing a report by tl>is nurse a

Mr. Paget.]

1656 Infant Life [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

~hort time ago. Tt was an excellent report, and 1n Rnrne case"' r~he he1s done exceedingly good work. The writer of this letl·er putR the matter in a nutshell. I cercainly think it is about time that the repntetl father or actual fatlwr shoulrl be m~de to bear the expenses of the ~onfinement d that. child. 'l'he mother would then have son1e hold on the h{ther hefore the ·child \Yas b.Jrn, so that s:1e 1night know that when she wad in a time of great trnub}e, at any rate she would ha' ' u!l the corrlf<>rts that her cnndition dPtnan·.!e-el. Ther~~ is snLject that is not included in this Bill. am not sure whether it id not ad vi~mble, nncler thi" nl!~.k-ure, to 111ake pruvision for the hold in of children's courts in the v~uious districts. are d~.::'aling with thP cn~es of infauts, bnt perhap3 it not come within the scl)pe of the Bill. it does corrtP, it \Vould be an exceeding,1y wi~-,e thing to have ease." of IF g-lected childretl treated in sep:nate cuurtR, u.v\ray fr(,m the volj: ;-=) cnurt. I do not desire to occupy the ti ·-ne of the Hon.-;e any longer, but I welc~·lTit_· t.his ruea~ur~', l1€1t llllly in the inbJrests of th0 incN~rt'-.;e of the l")puh.tion~ but in Lhn of hun1anit·v. _b--,t'Olll the

I-T nu'',~, tlli~ ~Bill1 ,;1

nil for­and I ~hall h~{ ve

the ::;ec::Hlr1 rearling and gi\'ing evF:ry -tuJ.l-:1e it tn becorne law a,t. a.;; ertrly a d;tte ,M; pos-;ilJle.

;l,lr. lLUVTHORX: I cou,\d, r this io a 'very go(,d Hill indl--\ed, and the H!:llk SecTE't:ll'Y bas reprP'Af:H1ICd it Wl-:'11. One 111 -ttl-'r referred tn wa~ the matt.er uf luoking- :tfter b.::uby L-rn1~. I can as~ure hon. me1nber,, th<t"G the lncal authol"itie.s havt: done a great deal in that direction in the vi:::1y of lil~pu>,tion :nvJ. lnr,1ting up lhe people \Vho keep tlH"e babv Lti"llH. The diflicnlt- is that iu the rnajority ot casf:;.; the Ln·mt~ld have g,Jt only ont'- child at a time, and is no W-tY of gettiug aL them whHl they have only go tone child. .::\lore hann has been dtJne in t hc-tt \V.ty prohab1y than if they kept twn or three childr<"n. Th:.1.t i" the weak spot in the Health "\.et, ctnci tlw local authol'iti--·s han~ noG Geen able to get at tht~ baby­farmers :tt-; much as they wonld li:-;c-. That ''')rt of thing will he prevented by thi.< Bill. There i .... no doubt a- to ttw necessitv for the Tneasure in the interests both of the J1f pulation and of IYJ<•rality. One clause vvhich will le.ad to the pre\ ~ntion of ba'uy-fal'rning nwre than .1nything­else, and the preR~n,ar.ion of infant lifP, ~s that which take . .;; a"\va,y d1e povver to pay a, lump sum iu sati~faction nf all clainu~, a~ 1s frPquently done. \Ve have h~ard nf in--tancf'~ in Br\:-;bane where, for a. ~Ulil of £2 or £;-3, lJ80ph~ have taken charge of infantH and relea -sd rite mother fr1Jm all responsibility. In a shcrt tinw the infant die;:;, [n Htnne lny.:;terion"' fa~hion, the•w children always die who are taken in on payment. of a lump snn1. The whole of that. n1 will b.~ pnt an end to by the 1Xl. Ther<· in cbnse D. In ad·.lition to every h()me l>eing cmnpPlled tn a ro11 and to enter tbe nartJes of infants, th <:;ex, and their -; when !mnded over 1:u their thev ;\J~;o be c .m.-pellr:d to give to i:he JJolice as ;;;o?n as they tak>:.~ charge (!f the infant~. Proviswn jo;; 1nade for notic.-; being given when they are removed, and I think it i.;; also necf-'.:-;- -try to in;..;ist npfJn notice lJeing giYen .~t the tiwe uf tak­ing chatge. l llOi )e this will be rerntdied in \Jmnlittr,>e, It ha.;; been R.J.id that. the Act would be better admini;tered by the Health D part­ment, but I think that tbe police a1 e the pl'.IJAT

persnns to undertake the duty, and that thPy will be able to givH :more effect.i\~e supervi.~hn than il the Health Department adndni,;tercd the 1-\.ct. T!H' Bill is a.b:-;(,)ut.ely n~:ceJS~;ary, and I think it will !mve. the eff~ct of doing awe y with baby.farming to a great extent, and certainly it

[Mr.Paget.

will reduce the death rate of illegitimate children. I ha.ve great plhl.~ure in supporting the second. reading of the Bill.

Mr. LESINA ((!lcrmnnt): The Home Seer~· tary, in introducing the Bill, pointed out that rt wil.l have the effect of cc)nservi.ng oni' p()pula­tion~thai~ it would tend to reduce the rnort<:1lity rate and increase th5 binhrate. Tho-ce are topics upon v,·hich hon. n1embc::-rs have gi·,·en an upiniou or two. ~c\._ ren1ark ha-"l al~o b~_e.n made in connection with that vortion of the l::\Jll deal­inv witi1 illt>gitima.te.s, and on that subject there ha~ been a n1a,.;..; of inforruatlon alr-Jady culJected in \ arion"< publication~. The ~ubject has he~n Yery ably d<·>lt. witb hy Profe"or LPffing~·ellm the "Social Science" seriAs. It is not cons1dered the correct thin~ 1n politt" society to diseu~R illegilitnacy. Profe~ r)r Leffingwdl gives a list of Hleo·itnru1te.s both in <.UIL:it'nt and rnodern civilis:1ti(•ns wh1) \\'ere disting-ui~herl in science, art-. philo:;;ophy, tnediL:inl~, an<l in war a.R "\vell a . .;; in i12aee, who \Ne re illf-'gitimate in the 8en .;e th tt their parents wure ru::·Yt:Jr n1a.rrierl; and anyone who l't'ldt'\ the profe.;:.-::n,'s \vork \Vi~l ha\~e his eye.s npenecl, aud will ever- ~tfter deal a .little more tt>ndetly ""' ith the.;,e HltlCh·de..:;pised people. The Bill IH'I,JfWSes to detl .,vith infa.nt life. ilTf-i_pect~v_e of whotfwr the ini;wH art: legitiu1ate or tllHgltl­:J:nate. TtH:'re 1~ a tnea.snre wnv on our statute· bonk which l'O.'gitilni~e.... ehildre11 if rn;.t.rriage ,,.ubscqudn dy takPs p;;.we bet_ween t:~t~ir' }JarenL:-:., \Vben the hua. UlCrllbcr for .\Ltck~•Y was ~pe-\k­ing, I poin tt:cl out ch:1t the iucrei1">d in the iilt,gitin:J:~te birthrate, to \··hich he wade refer­ence, \Va.s due to Lhe lung period of retren~hn1ent \Ve h:tve bePn going through, and which has placed {'h.::tacles in the way of mar:riage~: ~Vhen. en1ploynr-mt i . .;; ,.;;carce, -:nd there IS a, talhng off in th8 earning cJplcir,:, a~1cl in the dP:·.(u~e of cmnfort of the pr-nplt>, there IS vlway:-; an Increase in th·' illegitimate hirthrat-,, ~According to thP. laws of biology, sex:.un.l vignnr is not decrt:'ased d uriug- a pericd of clepre::)sion, but is. tremen­dously incrt,ased in inten:->ity. Tha.t m due to the etfPrL of the hnn1a~1 animal to pre:::;erve _the rac 1 type. This is bol'ne (JUt l;y. 1?ur Yltal stati~ti.e:-~. The Govenunent StatistiCian says, on page 17 of hi.-; repurt, which has been, 1-Jlaced rn our hands dnring tl1e 1a;:;t few day.-;, ttmt ~he nn',nbrr of ilL-:5itinHtte ehildren register~d rliJrl!lg 1904 was fl71 '" against 831 in 1U03, or an m­creC~se ,,£ 114. He say>-

Of the total nn:n1Jer "tii} w.:!l'C lllales fonta.le.:->. Ol all hitth~. ne '.rly 7 ill gitimate. The lil\e ratios tor ea.eh oi arc gin~n in the followin:S lal)le :-

and 4B6 wore l 00 wore i lle­la~t ten yeurs

18D.) 4.D:J 19110 6.10 JH06 G.~2 lwll 5.U:3 l89i H.ft2 l\102 6.0! 18!-!S o.tl~ JB0~1 n.:-n lHHH 5.!J7 HJC-1 0.9U

1t w\llllc at once ::-\et-11 th:tt l1nring the la~t de~~ade the rcttio of !Hts grr.Hly increa..;;eU. _Perhaps the ot il'1JJl'essi.on from wbli'h the :-stat(-) lla.:-~ by pre:'ont-ing olwt;tclrs_ to

tewle<l to the nmnbor of tlle-Qnccn:-;land la"t yPnr reeonlcd a

""'""'mwn of ba:::.tarcls than an~· !::\Y'tt.c .except­the ratios for each State being as

Qncrn.;:Jand Xow Sonth \\~ales n('torbt No1tth Australia ''re1•tern Australia Ta.o;m;mia ... XPW Zt- ,d~tncl

Per cent. to Total Births.

u uo 7.12 5.7':t 'H12 4.R6 ,.N2

4.5:2 Thus \Yltil~t South An-:trnlia. ,,~f- ~tern Anstr:dia, and

'?\ew t:ealaml were within 0.5 per cent. of each otl~1_cr w1th from 1. to 4.5 per cent. of illegitimates. and \ rc­tori<l and Tasmania were in advance of these propor­tions by about 1.25 in PVery lOO. Qneen~lautl and ).~e.w South "rales. again. were more than 1 per eent. 1n exeess of the latter ratios.

Infant Life [lG NOVEMBER.~ Protection Bill. 1657

It is also noticeable that the populous centres are the places in which the illegitimate birth mte is the highest. That is due to the fact that in places like 13risbane, Rockharnpton, and :\Iaryhorough there are lying-in hc"pitalo to whrch women are sent and come from the country districts. \V omen in trouble come to the populous centres to hide their shame, and also that they may 1·eceive proper n1edical treatrnent. 'V omen frmn Charter~ Tower:-:, Hughenden, r.tnd \Vinton go to Townsvrlle at such a time. l<'rorn all wuts of the Central di,tricts thE!~v ~o to Rockhat;1pton, and the same is true of BriRbane, and right through­out Australia. The next point to take note of is the death rate amongst these illegit.irnates, and there is some light shed upun the subject by the Government :Statistician. On page 21 of his report he gives a table showing the true infantile mortality for the ten ytars fromlo!lo to 1!!04, and then he says-

'rhe rnte for la~t. year was 7.61, and the mean for ten yC'·u·s was 10.4, \Vhil~t the ~amP for l9i)g wcrd 11.99 an<l 10.:26 n~~pectivc~ly. The clecreasein the iufantmortality rate as httween HW~ ancl h.st ye.lr-namely, 4.3S per cent.-was brought ahout b\' the abnormal v:triation in oppnsite clit·cctiot;~ of its t\\·u C01UprHlE'llL faetors. The births reg-istered inl~JOJ. exceeded tlwse i'or ye;tr by li per cent .. whil;.;t, oa t be other haml, of iufanrs unrlcr 011e yfc:nr decrea~e by ~g per eunt., there ?eing a_Yery (•on;-;idernlJlc dimmntion iu the mortality from llHtrrhwnl :wd other complaints at'fceting tlle Cli).;CStiVC system.

This doe;; not agree with the st.ttement made by the Elorne Sl·;reta.ry tbi.· afternoon. The hon. gentleman has apiJurently gone upon a SIJeCiJlly 1:Jrepared paper simply gidng the tigutT':i fvr one month---:-a paper prepan-d by Dr. CLttworthy, of who:-:;P exu~tence I \\'as not awnre until the hon. gentl Illan rnentio11ed his narue. The Govern­meut Statistician goes on to give a table coin­paring· the true infantile mortality in each o1 the States for 190-1-

Qneen~land . Xe'v South lValt>s Yiet.ol'ia South Ansitalia ·~,-estt~rn Au:stralia Tu.::; mania Xe\Y Zealand

Then he says-

Per cent. 7.61 8.2J, 7.79 7.0:)

... 11.:Jo !1.07 7.10

From t.hese ti:e.nrc:.; it will he seen that the loss of infant life fur t.hat year wa::i lO\Y in all the Slates, both :Xcw Zealand and South Auf'tl·alia. recording C\'Cu a. Io\ver l'<tte than tlwt of Queensland. whibt that for Victoria and New Sou1h ·vrales "":-ts not gretttly in excc:-;s. In \Yes tern An:-:.tral ia alone \vas the ratio nhove what Ill ay be considerefl the normal rate fot· this :State.

The, Home Secretary pointed out that the death rate HmCHJ.g."lt infantN ot' a certa.in age was \Tery high. r:l.,i:lat can be aecountt- -i fol' on 'arious gtounds, iHld I propose to quote frorn thi~, :-:;a.rne reprn-t to 8hed snrne light on it. \V hen the Esti­mates of the Health Departmeut were under conside:tation, L pp.-.:aled tu the bun. gentlern ln to Bet.. aside £1,000 for "n analyst, to oee that pure fnods were obt.tinabie by the children of yoo~ people. The hnn. gt'ntlMrnau declined to a·:;-ree to that, and he now lJTOpOI'E'-S to attempt to copA with the matttJr in an indirect \vay by n1eans of this Bill. The Gnvernrnent Statistician say.s-

l'nfortunately. although the mortality or infants is greatest dnl'illg thf..l tirst year o1' life, ~till during the seeond year a largo nmn~1er of death~ take place.

He then gives a table showing the number of deaths of children under two yectrs and under five years of age, respectively, and then he goes on to say-

Of all deaths ill the State 24, per cent. 'ivere of children nn(1er two years of age, and .28 per cent. of children under th-e years of age.. Of conrse, the proportion of children of these :-t~cs in the population is an important faetor in the question; on this point the third and

sixth columns afford information so that the relative values of tbe particulars given i.n tbe Hfth and eighth columns can be accurately mt"a~ured.

He lumped all infants together under the part I have dealt with, and does not dr·al with the rate of mortality amungsc illegitiinate children, which is a pity, because if we had those figures it rnight ast3itlt us in corning to a conclusion rnuch nwre rapictly. I believe, if the fignres were claKBified carefully, we should discover a higher rate of rnortality anwng.::;t illegitimate ehildren than those born in wedlock. Tnere i.s no rea~on in nature v-.rhv it should be so, for ordinarily an illegitiinate child is rnore vigorous than a child born in wedlock, which is a curion.s fact. Tht:>. first offspring in any family i8 generally the most vigorous in the nwjority of case~. .'\.._tfHJngst illegitimate childr,~n '\vho get proper c·-:.n1 and attention the chance<.; are, frmn a natural point of view, that the illegitilnate child, the offsrJrillg of the fresh affections of t\vo persous, is Inrn·e apt to be healthy than the product of a la~y hed. I think it will he conceded tlwt tile death rate of illegitirnate children i:; higher than it ought to be. \Vhat is it due to? ]sit dne to pov.~rty on the part of the parent, to ignorance, or iR it deliLerately due to wilftll and preventable causeR? A \VOinan comes down to the cit.y fl·om the countl'y di~t.rict:.., antl iR confined with a child l;nrn out of v. tdll•ck, and wanb"' to place that child and go back to her people. She secures D.r lJE'l'~on who takr•s the chilJ in, and pay"' a. certain an1nunt for the kec,p of the child. If it is placed in the C.'.tre of a motherly woman, in who:-;e b11.. .tst t.he rnilk of hunutn kindnes.; is nut altogether dried UIJ, and the rnother payA her fee3 rc~ularly, the !Jruhabiliti< s nre thctt the child will becr>nw a healthy and dgorons InenriJer of the couununity. If tht: rnot her iti 1norP or le.sF careles:::1 of the fa.tB of the child, and the person to whose hand to{ it. i~ deliver{~d is careless, the sooner it is ~oL rid of the better, and there are m~n:r methods adopted for starving a child, ill.feeding it, or over-feeding it, or "killing it \\·ith kindness,., dO\Vll to killing it with sheer brutal murder. All these methods are tried, chlldren are overfed and underfed, killed with kindne8:', or through ignorance, with 1nalice a.forethonght, dnnvned, or choked, or got rid of by some method by the person who is anxiuns to get rid of theu1. The }linister i:1 anxiou1':', and \\8 are ftnxionci to help hirn, to re­gister tlw8c per .<ms who take charge of the child­ren, and vvhen th, Re per,:;;on~ take a child they should tr8at it nndor certain conllitinns laid c1uvvn, and an inspector will be appointed to atte"d the home:; of the people ,, ho take these children under their care. The insJ.ector, who I hope will be a properly (1ualitied won1an who knO'}\'S .;ometbing about the rearin:": and treatment of children, will vi~it each }Jlace at interva.ls to be selectt:d by herf-:elf, and I hope lJl'ior notice tJ her C(lming will not be given, and that ,he will j ndge for herself, as the iilspector d11t:; \vlth rt:'t~ard to con­surnptive case~, whether the houde is airy and ro(Jn1y, and tbe food 1:::; good and such as the child would require, and tbat the conditions under which it 1s cared for will conduct> to its health afterw_trds. I helieve that is not exactly the inter1tion of the t-Ion1e s~~cretary. hhtead of appointing a. qualified rna.n or won1an to go round and look UD the,e vir,al :tssets of the State, which are even ;nore valuable than our nnde­velt.JJH'd magnificent resnurue.:::;, if he were to appoint a properly qudified medical man, r;rtwo or three fpmale inspectors, nrore good wuuld be done than by the use he propnses to make of the ordinary policeman-,vho is an inspector of cabs -whom ile proposes to be an inspecLor. [Mr. PAGET: :Nognnd <tt,t!L] Thehon. gentleman ought to be warned by t.be experience of Victoria. In New South \Vales, I believe, the polrce do the inspection. (:\Ir. HAWTHORN: In South

Mr. Lesina.]

1658 Infant Life [ASSEMBLY.] Protection Bill.

Australia, too.] \Vhat does an ordinary police­man know about et feeding-bottle? I think it is a grot<·sque ab;nrditv to pnt into a Bill like this, brought forw,ud with phil:tnthropic ant! hmnani­tarian intentions-to lmve the ilbpection and feeding of a child detel'mined by the judgment of ~1n ordinary policeman. You put a policeman to watch the tmtilc, and after ha viug put in two or three da..v~ at that \Vork, you put. him on to inspect thf."e feecling--bottles. }le gnd~ tu a place and askd how the ha.bieR arP geLtiog on. Ffe goes in and sits down <-"tnd ex~:unines the bill of fare, aud askR wh;,t the bahy i . ..;; lk:iug fed Oil, r_rhe reply iR thnt they are f0eding it on a diRh (If Irish stew, arul he says:'' Yon cannot; giYe it anything better; there icl nothing better fur bui;ding UlJ bone nnd ~inew, and it will do thern Plore good th ,n any otht'r diet.)' 1\_ p.Jlicmnau b.t::; no ku<nvledge flllont the feeding of infants. [:\lr. ,J. LEAHY : If he has any dnnbt, he can ask the Home Secretary. He can tell him.] I do not think the }{rnne Secretary, 8\'Pn thnngh he is a n1arried rnan, \vill be \blt' to jndg8 whether the child is being- properly fed or not. It requires a wcnnan, rmd if they n,re g'tJing· to do it on tlte'-·e che:1p lines it 'vill be a farce. }~very­thing seernR to he brought dol.vn to cheapuf'S~: which, in l\Ir . .Ru~kin's 1angnnge, '' bnrus like vitriol." Let us have a pr1lperly cp.1allfied won1an, specialJy trained in the C<tn~ and iJl'Otec­tion of children, give he;· a gond :.:alary Dnd indetnmdence of outside inflnence, and a ::-.1milar povver as exerci:;;:ed lJy the in.-:pector of C(lfisunlp­

tives to enter every house in the dislrict at any mon1ent, day or night, rLnd find out \Vhl··th·.~r infant~, 1t::>gitimate or ille;;;itinJate, are beiug kept properly by regit>tered nurs·J.s. 1. t, vvou!d cost a few pound~ n1urP, bnt in a Inatter of life and dea.til the Hmne Secretary :-Jbuuld not p1~rmlt a few ponnch to stand in the ''ay of proper administration, I hope \vhen we get int\1 cum­n"!ittee we shall have son1e di,,c·nst'ion nn the·>e point:-;, f:lnd strive to Recure tbe inclusion of a clause proYiding f1)r the appointment of a f!ro­perly qnalified lady inopector. I dec.ire to draw attention to one or two points in the report. On page 10 it says-

\Yith regar<l to the atlnltern'.,ion of milk, it wonld appear, from a revort pnbli1'-h811 by the Goyr,rmnont An<dyst. that·' the watering of milk is looked upon a_,.-;

rHther a harmless lapse f1·om the paths of rcctitnde than a serious offence."

Then it says-The danger of starving children or infant~ dependent

upon a milk diet, through the at1ditlon r,f water· to milk, requires to be more Htrongl_\· bnmght home to the judtcial a:-; well as to tbc ht:,· mind.

Then there-[, a paragraph Rigned hy the health officer. Dr. C. C. Baxte::>'fyrie, which sayf-

Therc is anotllel' source of infeeti.on. howm·er. whkh dermmc1s urgcn'· attention. Xcx.t to the lung~, the Rllmrntary tn-1.ct is the most iu'..portant (•hannel of infection. Thi~ inl'cction i...; generally in the milk from tnbcr~nlar unvs. It is r.;hieit \' aud yonng childrctl that are afl'C'etr .l. TiliS ~oun•e ot' infcct:ion is of great importance in a cPnntry such as thi:O;, where a large proportion of the infants nre bottle-fefl.

The Home Seoret>cry referred to the fact. that there was a tremendous rate of mortalitv in bottle-feel childrt'n, an<l here we have evid-ence from the health officer that it is chiefly owing to bottle-feeding of }nf:tlltti, and through the ali~ mentary tract that son1e nf the :;.uust. ~eriuns di.s­eases attaek our infantile popnlat ion, whPther legitimate or illPgitimate, but chiefly illegitimate children, becanse they are generally put out of their <nvn hmnes to be nursed by .strangers, and it is amoJJgst them that the high rate of rnortctlity pre\ :tils.

Proof of the po~sibili1y of experimentally infeeting-­animals by milk from tnUerenlons cows vta·S furnished

[Mr. Lesina.

by Gerhlch long before tbc discovery of the tub-rclc bacillus by Koch. },~a.ch sncceeiling investig1ttor has confirmed. his observation that "intestinal infection in children i~ common. and tnbcrl~ular ulccraUon of the intestine and tnbcrele of the glands couneet<->d with the intestinal tract, are of rreqnent occnl'renec in infants." ~Yo iJtfa;tf is [;n,·d tubrTcula1·.

A mBa:;:.ure of thi:-t kind, to b9 at a1l Affective, mn.;t not only prodde for tb~ impection of the women who mind the children and the premises al1ll bill of fare provided, but it :uusc go further ancl go to tee very door of the <lairy, and there is power unrlt~r 11ne of our Acts to do that. The D"iry Produce ~\et provides that owners of chiry cattle 1nnst snbxnit their anln1al~ to tubercular test, I do not know that m •. ny of them h:we &ubmitted them to thr1t tesc, but they sh<,nld be comp •lled to do so in order that 1nilk dr.'tvvn fron1 tubercnlar CO\A.'S n1ay not be sold to persons w\10 hR<Yt~ the rearing of childrPn in tLAir hands) and who consume large qnautibes of this CIHll­

mndity. Th8 Hmne 8ecret~rJ"" should put into foree tr1e section of the l_l,_iry Produce Act nutking p.;rindical inRper;r,ion c nnpulsory all over tbe State. Tlr. B·,.xter-Tyrie also s tys--

Therefore. it b only nee to enforce the existing reguhttion Lo ens.nre the of children from infection hy mill( from tuLercular cattle.

If the Niinister will appoint an amtlyst in con­nt:ction with the 1-Iealth Department he can insi~t on pure foo.J. .According tu a. book which I borrnwed from the Government Ana.ly,t, there is a lot of patent fumh:) such n.s _::\Ieave's fond, for cunsurnption by children, which ",1,r~ l.a.rgely pnr~ cha,:.,_d ~y b:t~y !<'trruers ·who are.Mtrlvmg to~c~,rl'y out then dutle . ., u1 a, hutnane fa~hJOn, but whlCn do not nourish the children. If we had n, Govern­rnent .. A.naly~t to analyse hVery patent fnod on the rn:.1rket, and 8how \vbich food contained the n1ost nonriKhing constituents and wa~ best fitted for the food of children, I belim'e it wonld be a step in saving inf[tntile life. If he 1~ anxious in his atl.empt to ~'we inhntile life, he will t"ke that ~t.ep, and n1ake provi:.:ion on the Supplernontary Estimate~. 1 t i," justified by the experience of the H•'·"ltl! Dt•partment, and by the face that the local <Luthoeities have hiled to put into operation the portion of the Act dHa.litig- v:ith food ancl drugs. A lot of people, by pepper­lnint ipecacuanha, and a whole hose of httle trifle~, purchased for Gel. from the chemist, attempt to treat. their children's infantile com­pla.int;;;, a.nd it appears that rtll ~rngs are adultemtecl whules,,l.,, and yet there IS no pro­vi,ion in thiR Bill for !Jreventmg that.. But there is <1 provision in the Healt.h Act, and if the Niinister will appoint an analy,t, he would insure that the children would get pnre drng-s and food, which would be tY:o points in our fight against the high cle1th rate. The third wuuid b< proper inspection which this Bill should )'ruvide for, but does r:ot at present. The fourth point is to put into operation section 2fl, subsection (G), of the Da..iry ProdueB ... -\et, which r11akes cornpnl•wry the application of the tubercular test to cow::;, and. thus prewnts the sale uf tubercular-infected milk for the conwmption of small children, The Bill provides that as soon as the children are born their name is to be regi::ltered, and their lJroper traininu should be a 1natter Qf State c m~ trol. I have :n"ther argument which I wish to present to the Hom·e before I finish. There is no provision made for giving a~sistance to ·a

\VOtrHtn, say, a widow, unless the [7 p.m.l child is taken away from ~er. I do

not see why under a Blll of th1s kind provision should riot be rn»de for giving assi:::;tance to children boarding with their mother. SnppoRe a wmnan has several young childrPn, if she wi,hes to keep them home her>elf and have the1n near 1Jer~ she gets no assbtance fron1 the

Infant L!fe [16 NovEMBER.] Protection Bill. 1659

State. \Vith regard to the scale of rations i,,med weekly to nece"itous persons, I find that children over fourteen ye an; of age are not relieved at all. The scale of ratinns which th<: Govern­ment issue i, as follow,;:-If there is one in the family, 4 lb. of bread or flour, 2 oz. of tea., 13 oz. of sugar, 4 lb. of nwat, and the apprnxin1ate cost of these per week, in 1005, was ls. 2bd. If there are [,,,eo in t,_,e f<tmily Slb. of bread or flour, 4 oz. 0f tea,, 2,) oz. of sugar, 8lb. of n1eat; approxinHttP cost, 2~. 4-~d. If there are three persons in the family, J 0 lb. of bread or flour, ;) nz. of tea, 31 oz. of Rugar, 10 lb. of rneat ; "tpproximate co.::;t, 2s. ]J~d. Then it goe!:i on to where there are ten perRorJs in the fa.mily, in which case the rations is:-ucd are 24 lU. br,_ad or flour, 12 oz. of tea, 73 oz. of sugar, 24 lb. of meat, at an approximate cost of 7,, lJd. The St. Vin­cent de Pa;,l Society reqne't that the value of beef and flour, etc., be given for childrf-n in the forn1 of tin_ned Ifl:ilk, sago, otc. That has been done, bnt I w.mJd jJoint out the very small value that may be had, only /'s. l}d. as a maximum, even if the nu1nber of chndren reach ten. I will give you u, case in point : There is a widow, living in South Bri>bane · her husband d[ed in the hospital; she ha~ six children, including four little ones; one of her children earns 5s. and the other 7s. She applied to 1\Ir. Scott for help for thte four little ones, gidng as he1· reasons that the twv boys, aged twelve and fourteen year!:', were earning, and that she did not wish to hreak up her hJrne, because ehe f0ared evil influences for them. She was willing to take a small sum for each of the four children, and so keep her home together. :\Ir. Scott offered to take the funr children, ancl board then1 out at (}nverninent expense, but would not help her if she retained them. This she refused, and the baby has since died, certainly of stan ation, as she had nothing but the 12s. which the boys earned to pay the rent a-nd buy bread for them all. In c~ses like that the proper nourishment of the infant is just as eSJential as the maintenance of illegiti­nute children, whom sornebDc!y has placed in a registered baby fnrn1 under the car<~ of a registered nnrso. I think that a widow in a case such as this ought to receive a little assist~nce in the form of nonrishment for her children to prevent them from dying of starvation. [Hon. E. B. FoRREST: Do you know the re,t'Oll for that?] No; wbat is it? [Hon. E. B. FoRHEST: Bec>wse the systun has been greatly abused.] I think that cases iike the1.t I have quoted should be assisted. [Hon. E. B. ]'aRREST: It is quite right they should be assisted, but I j nst gave you the reason why it is not done.] I believe there IS something in the reason, but it ought not to apply aJl round. I believe that in New South \Vnle~, unles8 they have altered it recently, they would not board out a chiid, but the parents would h:tve to put it into ,. registered baby farm ann pay so 1nuch per week for Its maintenc-~.nce. That is an aspect of the matter that the Home Sec­retary might consider. It appears to me that only one class of children are to be placed in the hands of baby farmers and registered unrler this Act, while widows who have infants lacking nourishment are refused that nourish­ment unless the mother breaks up her home and puts the child into the nursing home. That is all I have got to say about this Bill. I thmk the measure is one that has been wanted for a considerable time, and I hope it will have the good effect which the Hume Secretary anticipates it will have. I will summarise my arguments : There are three point' to be con­sidered. :First and foremost we should have a rigid inspection of food products, particularly in the direction of patent foods which children

have to consume to-day. I think the adminis­tration of this Act should be c~rried out by the Health Department, and that Dr. Ham should be allowed complete control, with a trained nurse under hirn. I see the Home Secretary shakes his head. It will be onlv a little extra cost. This nnrse would share the responsibility with the woman who is now engaged in con­nection with the exmnina,tion c.:nd supervision of the ditft>rent b(JJilE~. 'fhat i.-; nurnber one point. Sec:._mdly, I would like to see the l-1 nme Secretary's Departmt.·nt apply the provision of the Drngs Act of 1DO-! to tite. e h"m 'S. Thirdly, I \vonld a.lR 1 likA to 1-'ee the :·uhninistration of the Ac~ left in the hands of the Health Com­DlHiSIOner. if the Hon1e Secretary en1ploys a

tr~1.ined nurse as a.n ]n:-;pector, he 'vill gc a long way in the direction of nwki11g the Act a success; ~>thPrwise, I have very little hope indeed that the Act will realise the ant.icip~tio11s of the Home Secretary. 'rh is Act is" good move, but if it is gning tD be 11:-nnpered by parsiruoniuus admini~ st.ration at the outset it will not be of >~nv benefit. l''ar bett -r work can be done if it is left in the '1ands of an able and quditi d woman. I believe the objection ls the co.~t. \Vhy shunkl WP con~ sider the ccst in matters of this kind? \Vhat dues th~~ nnrse get,_., ho i!': in chargP of the con~ sumptives? [Mr. FonsYTH: £lOO aye tr.] \Yell, the employment of :t ' oman ,t £100 a year would be compensated for ten thousand time;.;: over. If .she· only saved the lives of ten children, the money would he well spent. I hope when we get in tu committee that the dt:partrnent will prDcr:>ed in the direction sug~ested by ]./It·. Paget, and by the \Vmnen's Uhri . .;;tian Te1nperance ·union, who v.:aited on lVIr. Barlo·w, a.ncl appJint ~t \YUlTI<ln inspector. Th~..- inspt-'ction ·will not be properly cctrried uut by the police. The police may he able to see the hou."'• and see if the yard anrl the house are kepG clPan, hut they will not be able to tell if the proper quality of food is offered to the child, ancl for that reason I ask the Hon1e SPcrftary to consider the matter again when we get into connnittce. The police are authorised to take a medical man with them if uecessct.ry. These medicallnen will be puiO, as they will not do the work for nothing. That would ~\Yallow up a great dealtn(!re rnoney tha.n a qualified v·om::Ul '''oulrl C(JSt getting a re~ular salary. I would dra\\ a,ttGntion tn the fuct that we are piling up the clutif's of the police ev~::ry day. The hon. member f01· Toowong· had a Bill paRsed through the House which will have the effect of nc.;upying the time nf the police in cha1-dng all t.lle srnall boyf:l wbo are srnoking cigaretteR. Thero we have rlecided to put all the traffic of Brisbane on to the slwulder,; of the police. In addition to that, the police have to in,~p::-ct tbc-;e regiPtered hmne~ under tbis Bill. I a1n not anxious to 1nnye any fL1neniln1ents in the matter, but I hope the Home Secr.etetry will Cl)ll~idFr the adv.i~abltmt''"s of introducing ~;o1ne mnendments \vhich I have rn·upoRecl. 1 hol)e the Bill \\·ill have a Hpeedy pas,,age ~hroug-h this Chamber, and also through the UppL'r House. [}lr. K~RR: It came from the Upper House.]

Mr . . T. LEAHY: .Tudging by the speeches deliverPd here, it \vould appear as if thi~ were a Bill dealing entirely with illegitirrmte cbildrPn. 'I'he subject matter of the Bill doe" not indicate that, although I suppose in reality tbe great bulk of the children who will come within its scope will be illegitimate children. I listened to the speech of the hon. member for Clernwnt with Rome ir;tere.st. He seen1s to ha\·e given some attention to the .oubject, and he gave us quite a ntunher of factf', and al~o a number of reasons. I never heard the conclusion which the hon. gentleman arrived at with regard to the cause of the steadily increasing yearly rate of

Mr. J. Leahy.]

1660 Il?fant Life [ASSEMBLY.j F1·otection Bill.

illegitimate children. 'rhe hon. gentleman says that there is less work and less to ·lo, or some­thing of that kind, and that is the ct~use of it. I always thought that vice in immorality be­lonw~d to the working classe,:-;, but; according to the hon. member for Clern10ut illegitimacy belong~ to the unemployed portion ')£ the corn~ munity. [i\lr. LE~INA: I said that the Lwilities to marry were decrea•ed by the Jack of employ­ment, and that the people could not t~fford to marry.J It is something to know the hem. gentleman ha.s so modified his views un n1orality that it is not confined to one portion of the com­lnunity. The hon. gentlema.n i ., altogether wnmg, becaube it d~~e.:; not exist in Queensland alone. \Ve find it all over A .. ustralia, and in :i\e··· Ze~­land as well. \Ve find that it ha-; been gndually increasing in thL tJlace for the last tt->n yf·ars. L\._cc )rd.ing to Coghhtn, iu 2\ew South \Va:e~, for the qniJJquennial }lL-'riod fron1 lRIH to 1880-a period when there wa:-:; a great dea.l of C!lltJloy­nient in that, Statf-~-the percentage of ill.ugiti­mate births to all births was 4.22. Tn 1N81·5 it w.JS 4.3G, in 1B8G"DO it v:a~ 4.00, in lKOl-5 it \\'as H.Ol, in 18\J!)~lUOO le wns G.t)8, in lf.l01 it was 7.1G, in 1902 it w.ts G.59, anJ in UJ03 it \\'.d G./1. Th~re ·sas about U1e san1e proportion of increa~t in Victoria. J n Ronth .c\.ufltra.lia, during a period of ten yPars the rate doubled. LThe Hm!E SECRETARY: That wa.s not the rE..:ultof povk'rty.] I did nut sey th<tt. [The Hmm S;:cnRTA!tY: No; but that W'l·' the r·eason alleged by the hu01. rr1ember for Cl?rmont. The P·Jorest coun(·.l'ies in the ;.vorlcl are the u1ost virtnous.] In Cl,ueens­]and, at the br~~inning of thi~ period, we were lower than any other Au~trali<tn State, t:'Xcepting South .._-\ustralia. In 107(i~80, the perc~:ltag·e was 3.83. Then for the follu\'dng q ninqnennial period~ the fip;un·'>' Y:;ere, roc.:pectively :~4.00, 4.44, 4 8:1, fi.!l:?; then in lDOl it was iUJ3, in 1\!02 it wa; ().04, and in lDO;l it v. as li./\). In Ke~.v Zealaud, where there bar! bePn no \Yant of r:n1pluyment, the rate of illegitimacy ha"' increased exactly in thP sanLB w·1y, For the quinqn..-nnial 1h'riodR frmn 1R7l) the £gurL--: ar(~ 2.30, 2.D3, 3 20, 3.11, 4.43, -1.57, 4.1U, and 4.55. The average f<,r the whole of Austrabsia is 5.25 per cent., ~o that the Queensland rate is Lt per cent. higlv:·r than tha,!-, avertl'{€. La:st year the rate in (.lueeHsla;;cl w J.s the highest i:. the group, New South \Y<tles coming next. So that \vhat. the hon. rw~mber for Olermont said 1nigl1t come in to pome extent, although we lllURt

not run away with tLe ide ·. that il'e_;iti1nacy is xnor~ prevalent ln ~-'tustralia than in other conntrie~. As a xnatter of fact the lH'rcentage of illt'gitimate hirths is Crln~iilel''lbly Lnver than in nwst other c.Juntries. In Engh.nd and \ValPs it is only 4.0-!; in ticotland, G 33; in lrPhnd, 2.G3; in G~nnany, 9.21; in Pru.ssia, 7.84; iu B:c~va,da, 14._00; in f:;axouy, 12.BO; in ~~n;;;tria, 14.;)5; in Hung:ny, 0.01; in :France, ~.2G; in Bel~iurn, 8.51; in Netherlands, 2.71; in Sweden, 10.80; in Nonvay, 7.3:}; and in Italy, (5.34. This is ll subject with which it has b·,en found difficult to deal in :tll ci\-ili8cd cnuncrie;';. I intend to treat the Bill to a large e~te:ot as in favour of illegitimate chilJren mainly. Sharne creeps in in c•mnection \vith thE! nHt.tt(·r, and penplG will suppress facts and swe·n falsely, and it rs complicated in a variety of wap, so that we 1nust be c:-treful that the retnecly which is pro­posed does not ten(l to op~rate in son1e ,Jirections ·which we do not nt present C()ntetnplate. I think it will foster this industry ; for one thing it will tend to 1llake it ,·espectable. [Mr. LESINA: You raised that objection two years ago in cnnneccion with the Legitimation ·Bill.] I think no better Bill than that was ever p:1ssed by this House; but I think that if these chilclren are to be hken under the protection of the State, there will be a tendency for the evil to

[illr. J. Leaky.

increa'e mther than tu diminish. The sh<cme which <et present is felt is a restrictive dement. [The Hmu: SECRETAHY: Ther", is n•> doubt about that. It will be '' bad thing when that shmriB cc~·""" to exist.] It will bP a bCLd thing, anc1 I fear that the Bill may bt~ve that effect to" huge extent. [The Hmm SEollET"\RY: No doubt it will have a tendency in thc\t direction. The Bill has its defects as well as its virtues.J I am as anxious as anyone to n1ake provision for the yc,ungr:ter, because there ii-i no guilt attachable to the child-it i•· the creature of circurnotances. Tbe Hill, it appear· to rne, will have a tendency to put a, premiutn on t:his kind of bm:;ine?p,· A

youngster 111 one of these registered [7.30 p.m.] places will be we!lldoked after-far

better looked nfter than the child of a washenvmnan \Vho has to go out washing u,nd leave her chilJ in a bit of a humpy. That child i::: qnite a:::; rnurh a 1H.-g1ected ('bild as the other, and y,,t the ]'Olice ·'·ill be unable to dnl with it bec_.tuse it is in the eh;trge of it . ..:; motlH'r. \'\/hen won1en who ha.\'e to go out to e:trn their liYing see that the8e \Vaifs are provided fen· Ly the State, it may tend to break down her high ide11ls to son1e extent .. There is no doubt. that, if·'· child is born out of l\ ~~dloc1{, it is the duty of the State to ,,ee Lhat it i~ reared just a~ \\Cll as if it wa: h:g-itim:.tte. It.:-; pal'f-.. mts are just as resrJUn­sillle fur its txistence ns if all th~ ~acreflne.~s uf tht: church \Yas ab~.rut it. 'The fact r·..::nutins, how(~\ er, that 1J8Pple uftPn attempt to put thdr ohligatioHs on othm·.-;. ~-,he nu_tnber uf illeg·it.i­mate children ·born every year m Queensland lS something- like 800 ; but all tho··e ch'.lC.ren will uot be sent to these regi:-,tered lJl<:ices. 11 here a.l'e n1any pe(lp1e li \'ing together v,:ho are not 1narried, and their children an~ regi~tered as illegitirnate. Thu·e are also n nny illegit~mate children who live with relatives, su that it IS not fair to assmne that all illegitilnatP cbildren '.vill conw within the nuvve uf thit-0 Bill, or th_at the high deach 1 cte is oolely amongst the"e cb!ldren. It is CtHnnloll to ::tll classes of the coinn1un1ty. I think it wonld be found to be particularly high a1nong the children of women who are compelled to leave their children whilst they go out \\'orking. There is nn prnvisiou jn the Bill fe-r dealing with thoee children, cmd I think there ought to be. The Bill is excellent as far as it gne.-:, l:ut \Ve do not know where it is going to bnd us. \Ve cannot alw>ys foresee how I hings will turn out. A remark>'ble in,tance of thi.--:; ha~ just fla_,hr:d ar,ro:-5s my ruir.d. Nonl6 yt:-,1rS ago a mPmber of the Labo1l.r 1'arty \vho i:·epre~-;en~ed Clennont did not suit hit-> party, and they got the 1n~e~r~nt rnernlwr fur Clennont in in~teacl of him. 'l"'hings do not always tnrn out m; you contmnp1&te. (ljaughter.) i\:Iost people have ,t love for JHl''".tu ity, but very often that ]ore i.3 oreq:;o\vpred by feelings of shan1e or bv fallJily ties. Kuw, if the State iB g-oing to l<;nk after illugitim·cte off<pring, the evil is likely to u1uldply, and in rnany cclses peOlJle '-vill give full play to their phy,icrJ capacity. I have a su,!{geRtion to rnake to the !-IonlP becret.ary which has just occurred to 1ne. There are several hundreds of won:en at Dunwich, many of whom are v rry nice, kind old people, an(i it 1night br po~:-lh1u to establi;-;h a foundling home there, ar~d get those women to look after the children. It wo;.rld be sontething for thetn to do, and I ven­ture tu say that no children wtmld b" better luol<eJ after. I have not considered the matter fully, but the Home Secretary may be able to make something of it.

:Yir. BOWMAK (Fortitude Valley): I desire to eonqJlin1ent the Governn1ent on introducing this Bill, bcC<<me I believe it is urgently re­quired. There i-, an institution in J..?risbane which is doing excellent work-the Socrety for

Infant Life [lG ?\' OVE~fBER.] Protertion Bill. 16(Jl

the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. The ladies and l'(entlemen associated with that eociet.y h<tve done a lot 0f good work in counection with illegitinw,te chih.lren and in relieving cases of d'"tress. One or two of the bdies have inte­rested thenl~elve~; in the provisionR of this Bill. I believe they have waited on the Home Secre­tal'Y, and they hnve given very\ _,Jnable informa­tion to n1v:;-nlf and sevPn-11 other mernbers. One of those fadie:;: sugge~ted to 1ne that a syst8ln that h<ts workeo well in South Australia is worthy <Jf consideration bere-nall!Ply, a. c\mncil of won1en to work in coojunct.ion with the Govern~ l~H'nt in SUllervising the working of this measure. l believe that in South Australia thev do it voluntarily, and n10f·t effectively. I have re­ceived informat.i"n from some ladies who have intere~ted thernselves in t~is question, nnd it is a 1awentuble thing to hear their e:-qmiience'; re­garding smne very sn1all girl~ in Brjsbane who are the unfortunate woth"rs of illegitimate chil­dren. Orw of those laJies told me quite re.cc·ntly that there were children, evE-m in our Sta,te ~Chdoh;, of the age of tvvelve years, who v. ere known to be mothers of childru1. 'fhi> is a hdy associated with the Society for the Pre.ventinn of Cruelty to children, and 6\7 ery' 1nember of th,-· La LDnr party will bear out what I say to be abRolntely true, becau-.;e she came and gave us the b nefit of her ex>wrience, with the view to our as~isting the Governrnent to p[!.SS a men~ure through which would be of service to the"e unfor­tunate people. [:'.ir. ,J, LEAHY: This Bill will not affect that.] It might not prevent. it, but if the Government are prepared to accept the rt:,si~t­ance of a number of women who l,vill con­stitute thernseL-~s as a council, a great deal of good C<tn be done. It is an ar.~unu"nt in favour of the system \Vhich har< bt>(-m carrjed out in all the large citie~, tba_t we should have separate schools for our boys and girls. [I\lr. I~EARY: Is there anything to Rhow that what you are speaking of is the result of the mixed school"?] \Ve were told that it was a re~nlt of the mixed schools. [Hon. R. PHILP: \Vhat good end will it serve by rn::~king thi; public?] I have not mentioned any school. I hctve told you what I beli~ve one of tbe most res1Jected women in Bnsbane says. I arr1 not going to mention nan1es, but any tnernber C'tn g-et tbe information from her. [Mr. BAR~ms : I think she has made a mistake.] [Hon. R. PHILP: If it was true, is it a good thing to repeat ?J There is another matter which I think is worthy of con­srderatwn. Su bclame (o) of clause 5 provides that public institutions estabJi,hed for the proteetion of infant life must be approved by the committee. I believe that Part II., providing that thCLt parb of the Act shall nut extend to-

(a) '!'he rela.tiYes or la.w!ul guardians of anv infant retrtinerl or received by such relatives or guardians;

{b) l)uLlic inf-ititntions cstablishefl for the protec­tion an(l eare ofinfants, and approved by order or the ]I mister;

(t-,1 An~ pnrson rf)(~eiving any infant for the purpose of nursing or maintaining such infant m1der the provisiont> of any Act relating to or}Jhan­Hges;

(d) Any per~on exemptcrl for the time being from the operation of this Act by special order of the Minister--

should bP deleted, and that all institutions sub­sicli~ed Ly the (Jovernment, whatever creed they belong to, should be subject to mspection. 'l'h.e statistics given by the Acting Government Statistician with respect to illegitimacy in Queensland are :-Ille;;itimate births in 1!!03 in the Brisbane registry district, 258; and, in 1904 246. rrhroughout the State in J fJ03 it was 8,17 ~ and, in 1904, 971. The deaths of illegitimate children in the Brisbane registry district in 1904 were 72; throughout the State 272 in 1903 and

290 in l!J04. The proportion of illegitimate deaths to illegitimate births in the Bri::lb:lne registry district for evpry 100 born was :>G.SG in 1903 and 20.27 in 1!J04. Thronghont the State in 190:i, :H./4; and in HJfH, 20.(i0. The pro­portion nf illegjtiluate births in Qucensh,t1d out of pvory 100 birt"'' in Hl03 was G. 79, and in 1!l04,' G. !)0. In :\' ew South \V ales in 1903 it was G.71; and in 1oJ01, 7.12 per cent. The number of children under State crmtrol is 1,77S, and the net cost £21 ,OlU. There are onf· or two amenrlrnent~ w hi eh have been bande<l to me by the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, and I am going to ask the Horrlt' Secretary, in tho cmnruittee stage of the Bill, whether be will accept them, because l think that they will be an impronment to Lh· Bill. One is that the word '' illegltirnate:' "'huuld be inserted in clause 5, after the wor c1 " guardians,'' and a. new clause to follow that referrmg to the relrttive'" or lPgal guardlaw~ of any illf':6tirnate infant retained (11' recei'>·ed by such relatives or gua:.·Jian~, provided that such relatives or guardians have been granted an exer11ption fron1 inspection by the comrnim;ioner. Another n1atter worthy of cnnsid~ration i''l that when trial~ on thi; matter are held thev sbodd lw held outside a public cunrt. [l\Ir. J. LEAHY : The exposure of a public court is a g1eat check.J At the present ti1ue, \\8 have an exatnple in the course pursued by ~1r. HaHking, the lJolice magi~trnJe-a Elost; humane rnan, who gives pa,rt of his dinner~hour at the present time, w that the children will be kept out of sight of the lJPnple who frequent the conrt during the ordinary sittings. \V hen the Bill gets j nto cornmittee I will move the.":~e an1endinents, aud trust that they will be accepted. I bdieve that the mmttmre will have a beneficial effecio upon infantile protection. \Vith regard to th,e re­marks of tlw lwn. member for Bulloo, I think there are some kind old ladies down at Dunwich, and their tirne wuuld be well utili;.;ed in cnnnPG­tinn with the children. [Mr. ,J, LEAHY: You might give them a little fur doing it.] The Bill deals with legitin1ate as well as illegitimate children, and I know ca,es in which the mothers actually see their little chilrlren passing their own door~. I \Vill nut sa,y that the strange \VomPn

are not kind to the little onee, but I do not think the children should be taken from a mother who knows how to behtwe herself. I think this can be got over by administration. There are women at the present time who take children over for what they cttnmake out of them. They ma.ke application from time to time; the more they get the better they like it, and some cases hl1.ve occurre.d in which they hav·e Hot shown the con­sideration for the children which they should have don·. \Vhere n mother is a good woman, she ,hould not be depriYed of that right, and any nutn here who i;;; a fatber knowR that if hP were to be taken away be would be more satiRfied if those he left remained under the care of a mother than have them handed over to strangers. Some do it for gain, but whet ever we can get mothers whn nre of good chau1eter, anri do nnt drink, they should get the preference. This Bill deserves the support of every hon. member, and I believe it will have an inHuence in checking many evils. I mn pleased that provision is made that where a man is unscrupulous enough to take advantage of a, won1an he will be nwde to ptty the expense to the extent of 4;10. [Mr. ,J. LE~\HY: You hav" goc to find him.] I think it is not a h"'rd matter to find them. There are many men at the present time in Queensland who do not care two straws after they have tttken advantage of a girl as to what happens to her. This Bill provides that she can be nursed and cared for before the little one is born, and after birth they have got to protect her. A man who is cowardly enough to take advantage of a.

Mr. Bowman.]

1662 Paper. [A.SSEMBLY.j Supp1,y.

woman ought to be compelled, if be does not do it voluntarily, to look after her buth prior to the birth of the child and afterwards.

Mr. BARNES (Ba/imba): I would like to take the earlit~st opportunity of congratulating the Home Secretary on the introduction of this 1neasnre. It is a very cnmprehen~ive 1neasure, and it has not been introduced one day too soon. I share very hrgely in the 'entiments of the hon. rnember \\ !Jo h::~s int~t resumed h-is ~ent, and I am quite certain that the )mt>lic will be thuroLwhly in sympathy and appreciate the effort,", n of the l\linister in introclncin£:; this 1neasure. K o one who has cotne into close connection with son1e of the societies which are working in Brisbane can come tu any other C(lll­

clusion than that there has been for years a tendenc_y un the p::Lrt of many people to silnply "do to death"-I ~ay it ad vi:-.edly-1nany unfor­tunate illegitimate ehildren. For the luve of gain) and \vithout any de:-:ire whate:rPr to pro­tect them, they ha,·e taken the clnldren, and treated the1n in such n, \Yay that there ha~ betm this large percentage of deaths of i1legitin1ate children. I know, from 1ny conHection with the :::>ociety for the Preventwn of Cruelt.y, that rnany rnetlwds were adopted for killing children. In sorne cast~S they "\V~re not starved to deal h ; in fact, they were overfed. Then anoti:er plan adopted wts to rcet:Jive a. prennun1, which \:as really an iuduCt'lnent for the1n to dd away \V1~,h the child as quickly a,; Jl'""ible. I am plea,ed that tll'OVi~ion h~~S be eH lllade for snitable hmne.i, as irt the past I believe the rnajority of hornes have been nnsnitabl ', and many ahnses v.,,ill be nreventcd. It is pleo..~ing bJ note that the father of a,n -illegit,imate child w-ill be under thi:..; HilL There arR nHn1y n1eu bad enungh to gloat 0\·er tht: _ . \Vho cOlllb their way a11d whmn they and lt ha:3 bst:u 1 Jlremint~l tu peopte in th.-' lj' ;.,o 1\~0 bE.,can~e thHy have got on:: of the trouu1e

I notictcl that in ArleLmle girl lost her lifP, :.1nd tlle man

to her rnin clt-ar·t-_ _--1 ont to andtho::'r 'trly d~\yt:; 1 bad the tni:..;fortunP Lo

:-t ruan of g(1od 'vho~e in life ~eewed to ,_() :-:ee ho,,-

rnuc~1 ruin be on the lives of oLlwrs, and an kind deserve>" to be pur):-'ri.ed to fur his 1ni:sconJnct. The hon. rnt~Illbc~r for :Fortitude .,/alley haH -referred to the won .. f~n who to-day are pre­vented fron1 taking care of tlu-·ir o\vn c:hilJren. It RHf"nl:-; to 1ne, without wi-d'ting to 1nake <:~ .. ny reflection upon a.nv n1otber, that sonwtinlPS Wrl

nH1)', "b;r rt:--fnsing to ailnw cbi:drc.n [8 p.l!J.j to rerrwin with thtirrnother, rr1:-1ke1t

better fur the children them,;elVE·. I know a Ci-'~88 in rny own elector,~.te of a \\'Oman

with three young- cbildren. It is irnpos~ib1e for the mother to look afkr the childn;n and at the same time to provide them wit:h dltily t>rt•acl. I certainly think th«t, either in thi,s Bill or in another' Bill, which I believe is being prepared, ROmP prcv:i::;ion ::;h( uld Le 111ade for protect­ing motherA of that kind. I am pleased the Bill has been introduced, and will give it my hearty support..

Question-That the Bill be read a second time -put and passed.

The committal of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

PAPER.

The following paper, laid on the table, was ordered to be printed :-Report by \V. Saville­Kent on Torres Straits pearlshell fisheries.

[Mr. Bowman.

8UPPLY.

l:tEsn.rPTJON m' CmrliJITTEE.

DEP~J.R'I'~IE~T 0~' ,JUS'l'ICE~CHIEF OFFICE.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Hnu .• T. \V. BlRir, Ip"u:ich) moved that £4,7Gi1 be voted for the ''Chief Office." The vote had been reclm:ed by £·130 on account of the tranBfer of idr. Cahill, late Under Secretary fur .JllStJce, to the Police Llepartmen t. J\lr. Calull was appointed Corrnnissio11er of Police on tht~ 1st of .A .. pril, and, following on that appoint1~1ent, 1Ir. J. Hendersnn, chief clerk, was appomtecl U ndet· Secretary at a salary of £4ii0 a y~ar. He would like to nlace on record his sense of the lob.-; that the de{J,'"trnent and the people of Queensland had suffered by the early de",th of so zealous, loyal, tnergetic, and capable an officer as ::Yir. Henderson. (Hear, hear!) A rearrange­rnent in the depart1nent m~tde the savings he allnded to those ocCUf•Ying the positions of chief, fir ,t, secot;d, and third clerks being promoted to the positions innnedi>ttd);_,ahuv~ them. 0:1 the 1st of ::\"ovember 11r. J . .o. Hall was app"mted Under Secretary, at ft .salary of £f100, an _increa5e of £50 over hi~ salary £LS Curator of Inte:;tate Estates. Another rearr,tngemPnt of the staff increased t.be vote by £245. He thought that the peo1Jk of Que~~nsland and _the public servicB would be ·,vel! ple<1Se<l <1t :'llr. Hall's appoint­ment, (He.<r, he,u !) In him -che depHtmcnt bad an dfieient and abh-: Under 8ecretary1 <L rnan ,,~hl-)' he helievect, would work \veil with ~hose innnediately connect.erl wit)1 hirn and thm,e v.'ith who1n he was bronght in C;ont:;u t. The amount for" Coutinw~ncie~'- was the ~~Line a~> last year. If there was ~~ny o.ther infon~tntinn re­qnired, he would be glad to supply 1t to hon. Iuernbers.

Hox. Tt. P_HIL F ~1r. l:Iendf'rs1m'F; death very 1nuch. ~anF tin1r, he con-gratulated ~[r. }{all on hit:i apptlintuH--'nt. l\1r. 1-Iall \vas a capabh~ rnan, aull the (+overnlnP.nt did a wlf-'e thing in a,ppomting bin1 l~nder S~~cr~­t:lrV fo;· .T n..:;tict>. He 1.va~ a lllan gontlt"ula.niy Hl hi:-;"ct~ndnct, and cape\blc> of bi.::-; \Vork.. J-f e ,vonJd hring nnder the nutice the 1\ttorrJey-Gew:;ral :1 l'CID.'lrk \vhich the Chit~f Justic _. 1nade in UH• enurt t(Hlay, as reported -in the :rchj!Ytph thi~ eveni:~g~

At tlJO c1o~e of a, CtSe in Uw eivil ~it1jng-E> of the Court th1:-: rnoruing the Chid .fn:-:.tiee (Sir Pove

\\·hn was prc.;;;;Idin~~. snid: I ~ee from the theriJ still art~ llHYCH other e:-tsr·~ fur

and lt it:< quite clear t.l1at tl1ry eannot pos~ibly 1Je ]), l'oJ'e vHeation. This court ha.-. no\\. b..!t~n run

for two years by t\YOjndge~. mu1 tl1c lllconvenJCu~~e awt expcn:.;e ant'\ that litig:n1ts have ~nffered 1n colJSNJU!:'nce have very eun~iderahle. 8uHors have the right to have admini~tored in a 8.peecly and cflicient manner. at pl'C'--L'nt. jn consequence of the lHtnJG''i<:~tl \Yeaktw 1 of tbo bml('h, they can11ot obtain. I am nnal1le t.o certify nnder any .\et that a 1cnq)OI'ary jndgc shonl1l iJo appointed, bAl~an:;;c tlle AL'ts only contenq:llate snch an appointment in the al)S<~ncc on aceount of tl:le illnt'S~ of one of the jnllg(~s. I thin!..::. there forA. that tb•, (;ovcrnmcnt shonld ~-t.}_lpoint another Sttv-reme Court jurlge imnH diat ly. I say immediately, beeanse I think ihi~ state of affairs slwuld not he all<nred to eontinu"'. I take this optlOrtunity of mRking these remarl\:S bef•anse I see ~t member of the }linistry at the bat· table {:\Ir. O'Sulhvan).

}Jr. o·~nllivnn said that he woulrl bring the matter under the notice of the Cabinet.

The Chief .Tnstire: I lmve no wish, as you know,. to embarrass the Govrrnment. On the contrary, my w1sh is to llelp them in every '\Yay.

~Ir. O'Sn1livan: l.Ye are snre of that.

That was a serious statement for the Chief .Jus­tice t.o rnake.. Snrne tirne ago Judge Real comple,ined a\Jont the se,rne thing. There onght to be three judp:es, or, if they could not bave three judges, they should bring Judge Power from Hockhttmpton. [Mr. GRANT: \Vhat about

Suppl,y. [16 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1663

bringing . the judge from TownRville ?] Mr. ,J mtice Chubb was one of the hardest worked judge" in (~ueensland. Now that thev had the train running to 1\.ockhamvtun thre~' Lirue;;; a 'veek, it wonld not be a difficult matter to ~end a judgr up there. They ought to hrtve sutficient judges to administer justice.

TheATTORNEY-GE0l'ERAL: Jf the facts were a'' stated, it seerned to have brought abo11t n.n acute stage in tbe prlsition of the CDnduct of the work of thll Supreme Court bench. In the Supreme Court Amendment Ac., which he introduced two years agP, he provided for the working of the judiciary of C-zneensland with four Suprerne Court judges, leaving two in Brisbane. According to statistics that he had obtained, that Act worked compnatively satis­factorily, and brought about a large saving. Since they had last discn>sed the E"timates of the Department of Justice, death bad removed one of the best District Court judge' that they had ever had-His Honour !Judge ~Iansfield­a painstaking, kindly, and learned judge. His (l'!Ir. Blair's) idea originally w:<s to see that justice w,Ls administered efficiently by four Supreme Court judges and four District Court judges. They had now four Supreme Court anrl three District Court judge~, and it \\'U.S a. question which I he Cabinet ·;,-ould have to take into con~ideratirm \VhethPr they should appt)int ~nother District Uonrt jucl!.fe, lH' a Supreme Cnnrt judge, or whether they should appoint both a t:iupreme Court judge and a District C<mrt jud~e. lt would ~eern that a POhsible t:;olntion of thr~ ditficulty wnB to appoint ,1 Court judge, a,ud allow ~.be l)i::;tl'ict CoErt to do as they \vcre dning-nau1t:ly, rearra.n!:(e their Circuit~. ri_'hat arrang~UH-mt \VOnld effect :In econmny of £1,000. The- IJJattel' wonld ha.\"e to bt' di~CU8RPd serimwly in Cabinet. \Vith re!lard tu the rernork, m"de Lw the Cltief Jc~tice: ordi­nm·ily wben a jnrlge \~'as ill, or ·1h;.gnt fr<;ln 1 he ::-ltate, tile< Chief ;) ustice could certify to the: necessity of appointing an acting judge, hnt in tbi..:: ca,-.e the jndgE'S wPre all h~·re thert; was no provi::;ion about- }lppointing <1 for tPnJ~ prwa1·ily increa~·''-'rl 1Nork. The h -~ had

shO'-·V, d that there was a in y,:nrk, and hR bcj ievt>d tbat pr._.., :ent they abnorwally long sittingt> both in tlw civil

crimina} c.:ourtt:i. If that ·were n fHrt) he had no hesitation in sa.ying that !-'tPpH \vonld he taken to d<'>tl with it. It h>td been that liir. . Tu-.rice Power shonld be han1pt:un. I-->er::;onally, he would solve the question at all, as thern would still be the difficulty in the nnrnher of miles that he would have to t.rav,,l, and they w•mld h"ve precisely the same difficulty. There conlrl be reo d0nbt that Mr. Justice Chubb also had a great deal to do. He conld assure che leader of the OppoRitioo1 ttnd rnernbers generally, that the tnatter would be taken into con~ideration by the Cabinet. ·

Mr. BOUCHARDcongratulated the Attorney­General upon the ~ppointment of :\Ir. Hall to the position of Under :-)ecretarv of Justice. He had known 1\Ir. Hali for a great many year,, and knew that he was possessed of gre1t ability, and was always conrteous to the pnblic. His appointment had given satisfaction to the pro­fession, and he was surP it would give general satisfaction. On the Address in Reply he mentioned the advisability of appointing another Supreme Court judg.?, and subsequent events showed that the appointment waR more urgently needed now than it was then. He did rwt suppose £l,fl00 a year was saved by staving off the appointment, and that was nothing when the great atnount of inconvenience to litigant~, witnesses, jurors, and the profession was taken

into account. If one of the judges fell sick, legal busine?s was hnng up, and that \Vas a state of affdh·s that should nut be allowerl to continue.

Mr. HA WTHORX: Last year he was of the OtJinion, in view of the neces:-:;ity for econon1y, and tb0 apJJarent falling off of business in the Supreme Court, that it would be judicious to dt·fer appointing an additional judg~; but, in vi~w of \V hat bad occurred during th~ last few rnonths, a.url aho of the strong pronounce111ents of both th'J judges uf the Supreme Court,, there w>ts rw dnnbt that they could no longer i'llt off cuu~iderirjg the quet:>tiou. The judges con~idered it imper,•tive that another appointment should be made, and, if the Government did not appomt a jnJge, they might lay thec1rseh·e, open to the charge of not do1ng the proper thing. J--IA was glad to he1r th:tt the matter would be considered at an early date. He also was in accord with the appointment of lllr. Hall. He had always founrl him "' most capable officer. Another rec,lllllnend<-tticm "\va.-; that he possessed the con~ fidence of all the otticers of his department. HE' desired to express his rE'gret at the death of JYfr. Henclen;on, in 'vhon1 the State had lost a good, loyal, and el"Hcient otficer.

Mr. :\IAX\V1:LL desired to sav that earlier in the he had handlt'tl the Uitizt-~n~' Life

ratbtT njugbly. Since then he had gone c~--trefutly .into tht'.ir balance­sheet and fonnd t.hat tlwv -,,rer~-'-lX~rfect.lv :sol vPnt. ~l'he jietrupolitan Lifo Insura.:r~ce U()m'iJany had been writing to the dPpa.rtlnent, but he \\'<1~ aR

Iunch cl i~t'ati.-:fie.d with that con1pauy as he \i\'ns

at time. he bad. !Jron~:ht on hi~ lrwtinn, nnd if the did not se0 their way t,) doing Routetbing- hefure next. se~~iou he would stir thel!l in tbe m;,tter. \Vhilst he ghr1 for c\[r. ,;ake that he hat! been L-nder lJc thonght that in

and to prevt=mt the now took piace whell

n-·quired a h-g,d the ::;bould the head of the Llepartment. l-fc Cr1>Wll ~nlicitor wn~ not he waB, theff~ was :-;mnet-hm-~· there WhS a. ::tlll<~UUt nf wo1k LLat ought to be done in offic,~ that i.\r .s g~>ing to outsic1e finns nf l~1e n11de1st )od tllat pr,:;tty \'\·ell all of ~Iax\velJ\ work was goin~ to a,

firm in Brisb,tr;e, andarwthcr iv1inid.er ;~ asgett.ing a gnod deal of fns work dnne h:~' an~;ther firm of ,..:;,__:.liciturs. It was a1Jout tlnH' thi; ,-,as ,,COJ;ped . If one rnan w;1s 110t enough to du all the legal for t:w clupn..rt.rrt:nt ,~then tlH'y :-.}wu1d appoint. n. 8econd, instead of ha\-ing l\finisters r-;weetening- thenH·· Jlves with ntriuns finn.s of i:iOlicit:n·s in Bri~ha.nr. :b~or some VPars he had rnoved. for :1 return shnwing the mnounts p1.id to solicitor~ l)y the Departrnent of Justice. He believed the present ~lini.c~ry \VE're mnving a bit in the way of rPform, but tht> tnovt~nwnt \Vas not fast enough. At vresent they were 3pending too rnueh in hgal expenses, ·1nd the money could be better spent in other directions.

::\Ir .. J00l'ES: According to the correspondence laid on the t;cbi.~ in connect.ion with the proclama­tion of the Didcot special licen~ing district, i~

appeccred that the police uwgistrate [8.30 p.rn.] at l\Iaryhorough had received in-

strnctions from the Department of ,Justice to go to Biggenden for the purpm;e of granting a :-;prcia1 license. In :.F'ebrnary last a firm of solicitors practising in ~laryhorough made application for Didcot to be proclaimed a special ri1strict, and various members of Parlia­ment were written to aRking thern to get that procl><matinn made. The local pniice and the residents of the district stated that the license was unnecessary.

lrlr. Jones.]

166t Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I think the hon. member will be in order in referring to the action of the pnhce magistrate on this vote but I do not think h: will ~e in order in openi~g up the whole questiOn. 'I be whole matter was discussed fully on the Home Secretary's Estimates.

:'.fr. JONES regretted that he was absent on that occa~ion through illrlf>:;.,,;, Th:l local justices had dealt with ce<seq in which men·s liberty was at stakP, and 1t f;eerrH_~d strange that it should be thought r;ecnt'sary tn Repd up~ a police n1agi~trate to deal with the que.;twn of granting a license. The outcome was that thirteen justices of the pe:1ce l'Pt-iigned, and their redio-nations had been accepted. 'fhe Horne Secreta~y had -tated that they did . not wish their resigr.ations to be accepted, _bl~t tha_t was not correct. He (i'vlr. J ones) had mterviewed the Chief Secretary on the subJect., and he ~ad sug~e,ted that they ~honld wrthdraw their resignations pending mqmry. However, no inquiry bo,d been held, and be had "'ked for the correspondence to be lmd on the table, and his grievance was that the correspondence was incomplete. They could not get any of the C'lrrespnndence between the oHicials at Marybo~uugh and Bi,;genden, and he had no he-qtabon In sayHJg that there bad been smne corruption.

The CHAIHMAN: Order ! The hon. mem­n1~~Rt no!; gc~ into tht"; whole ttuestion nov;,r. He Will not be m urder in doing so.

Mr. JONES was sorry if he was out of order, but he wo;>ld like to know 1f anythiog could be done to reu1£ltate those justic:;s.

Mr. :FORSYTH asked what was the usual allowa-nce 1mid to witnesses in Rnprerne Court c.tses? At present there were \Vitnesses in BriR­bane who had been kept here for a fortnight \V~lhng for ca,.,es to. ~omB on, and all they re­ceived \Vas the lnagniticenU remuneration of 5s. a day. In a gre.at rn:tny m1ses those people had to pay men twice as mnch to attend to their busineos. In addition to that, they had to pay thmr hotel expenRe~. He knew of tw1l witnesseR who had been here for a fortni.;ht. [l\Ir. L;,srxA: I. know a 'v.orking rna.n Yvho has been kept here smr.e .June m connect•on with the Heaney case, and he got nothing at all. I sent him to tbe departme.nt the other day. He is ,;tarving.] He hoped tl!e Attorney-General would give some explanation, as such a, sta.tr- of thinus was scandalous. He did not think it fair thac any of those people should come here under 10s. Gd. a dav.

Mr. LESINA: In New South \Valeo the Go­vernment, which did not pretend to be a Labour Governn1ent, or a. deniocratic Government even pas~:;ed a n1easure abolishing pen~iorm in the cas~ of all future appointments to the Supreme Court bench. He would like to o·_,e a simibr Bill in­troduced and passed here next session. He did not see why jndges should get pensions. They were paid. splendid sal>1ries of £2,000, and they ?oulcl re~1r.e on pe:JSIOns of £1,000 a yea.r. A Judge mignt fa.ll Ill or become ins,ne after twelve m:mtbs, and yet he would probably retire "." a penswn of £1,000 a year for the rest of his life. That "ystem ought to he knocked on the head.

The CHAIRMAN: The hrm. member is dis­tinctly ont of order in discussing matters of that kind.

Mr. L'B~i:3INA: The Chairman had permitted the leader of the Opposition to bring the whole question UJJ.

. The _CHAIRMAN: The bon. gentleman is drscussmg the question of pension.s, and he is not m order.

Mr. LESIN"'\.: He would drop thl!t matter but he tru,ted before the Government filled

[Mr. Ja::kson.

the vacancy on the Supreme Court bench they would introduce a measure to prevent the pa)·­ment of any future pensions to jndges. Tbere was a serious objection to the large snrns of pnblic money paid to legal firn1s out~ide. The return laid on the table of thei-I(Juse, on the motion of the hon. member for Bnrke, showed tha.t a total sum of £1,417 uJrl had been pairl for the year endwg :;oth June, 190.5 to the fnllowin" per­son~ :-.J. \V. Alexander: £20 lls. od. · H~ Ben­jamin, £2 2.:;. ; Bergin and J3ergin, £2 2'{, Hd.; L. 1''. Bernays, £1 h. ; Hon. J. \V. Blair, £207 10s. ; Bunton and ()ullinane, £10 10s. ; P. L. C ,rdew, .£;) 3s.; Chambers, Bruce, nnd Mc?\fab, £5 lls. 9d.; 1<'. \V. Dickson, £112 18s. Gd. ; E. A. Douglas, .£13 15s. Gd. ; P. P. }i"ewiHgs, £0 u.~.; ..:\. Feez, £51 12s. ; l''it7.gerald and Power, £13 17s. ()d.; Gair and Schrwht, £3 3s. ; H. Grant, £(i5 7s. 4d. ; F. G. Hamilton £24 3s. ; Hamilton and Pl!vne, .£Hl 4s. ; \V. d Harding, £2 10s.; E. Hol)bs, £18 lCs. ; L. E. Hobler, £5 5s.; T. B. Hnnter, £2 2s.; C. ,Tame­son, £10 lR. 6d. ; E. Gore ,Tnnes, .£2.~ ](lo. ; H. E. Kmg, £3 3s. ; J. J. Kingshury, £7 12s. ; T. J. Lebane, £11 lls.; P. \V. Le Vaux, £11 lls. · n Lilley, £2 Gs. 8d.; K :H. Lilley, £1071Gs. 9d.: L. 0. Lnkin, £3() ls. Gd. ; J\.facdonuell, I-Iench: man, and Hannarn, £0 (k ; A. vV. :\1acnaughton £7 7s. ; 1\IcGrath ancl 0'::'\coill, £7 10s. G. I. ; 'I< )\IcLeod, £39 4s. (id. ; F. C. 1\IcNish, £16 1118.; :B. IV. O·Rc•urke, Jell 18s. GeL ; O'Shee~. and O'Shea, £20 14.;. ; T. C. Poole, £3 3s.; .T. Patti­son, £56; G. \V. Power, £30 10s. ; J. B. Price £26 5s. ; Hon. Sir. A. Rut!edge, £18 12s. ; T. i Hyau, HO 10s. ; G. Scott, .£11 lls. : \V. A. B. Shand, £1(5 12s. Gd. ; C. F. Sheldon, £25 4-.. lOd.; C. StnrntH, £01 12~. ; S'.v~Linvick and KaYanagb, £1i5 2s. 2d. ; H. ::'>J. 1'horbnm £8 15s. ld.; F. G. Unmack, £11 2s. 3d.~ Unmack and Connolh-, £118s. Sd. ; .T. .J. \Valsh £8 10•. lirl. ; .J. L. \Y oolcock, £1G21Ss. Gd. ; R. G: \Vonderky, £10 10s.; total, £1,417 3s. 3d. If the Attorney-General and the Crown Solicitor were not. sufficient for the wnrk, they shonld secure the advice uf another mall and not ao out of the department. The gener~l public did not understand this ex-penditure, w hi eh vvauted explanation. The late Chief Justice Higgin­bnt~am, one of the nwst eminent lavvyers ... -\us­tmha ha~ produced, when Attorney-General of VIctona, refused to accept a private brief, and _would not accept a fee for any Crown work outwlc: h•s sn,lary. He (Mr. Lesina) wonld ObJeCt If hi" own brother occupied the position; and while he had grr .tt aJmiration for the At­torney-General, it w not a correct thiorr to fee himself "·ith Crnwn fees. He trad rleno~mced it when Sir Arthur Hutledge occupied the position, and the present Atttornev-General deserved severe condemnation, and he ·hoped some attempt. would be made to stop it. They eould get money for lawyer.-:, when old n1en in hi:::: diR 1:rict ·were being cha>ed fort he poll tax. :\Ir. \Voolcock had r~ceived u sum of £162 this year, in a.ddition to h1s salary of £530. He believed this department offered grPater opportunity for eeont,nly than any other departlllent in the Stt1te and while hospitals were cut down, they h~d scarcely touched tbis institution. The A ttorney-Genera1 had made one or two successful efforts to reduce expenditure, which he had cut down very much comparerl with the old continuous Government but he ouf!ht to go further. In the list quo!·ed: none of the legal me m hers of the House had received any fees, but the late Government had feed their legal friends; on one occ'"ion the hon. member for Dalby receiving .£346 odd. If the Attorney-General would follow the example of the lat_e_Chief .Justice Higginbotham, it would add additiOnal lustre to his name. (Laughter.) He had received a great deal le'"' in fees than the late Attorney-General, Sir Arthur Rntledge,

Supply. [16 N OVEMllER.] Supply. ln65

and his modesty was much to his credit, but it might be a passing spasm. (Laughter.) He would like to refer to Mr. Salkeld. That gentle· man had to gain his own education. Having got a scholarship in Queensland he passed through the Ipswich Grammar School and was awarded an exhibition to the Melbourne University, where he great!) distinguished himself. On returning to Queensland, of which State he was a native, he was practically told that his qualific 1tions were not sufficiently high for ad mission to the bar here. He thought the Attorney-General should take some action to try and get J\lr. Sal­keld admitted, perhaps by altering the Rules of Court. Mr. Salkeld wrote a letter to the Brisb<me CouTier on the subject, which drew forth a leader­ette comwenting strongly on the injustice of his case. [The hon. member here read the article.] Mr. Salkeld's admission to the bar was refused on the ground that there was no recivrocity with Victoria, which he thought waR merely a pretext. If a Queenslander could be debarred from enter-

ing the legal profession in Queens­[9 p.m.] land because of this absence of

reciprocity with Victoria, he might just as well be refused admission because the clothes he wore were made in Victoria. Because the intellectual dress necesse~ry to qualify him had been acquired in Victoritt, he was de­barred iu Queensland, and che same principle applied. \Vhere was the encouragement to the young man of Queensland to take up this profes­sion, when, after he haR trained himself and worked himself up, the doors of the legal profes­sion were practically slammed in his face, as was done in the case of Salkeld? Mr. SalkAld was practically treated as an alien. His case was far worse than that of the six hatters. He under­stood that the power of making rules for the admission of barristers waR given to the judges of the Supreme Court under section 52 of the S'1preme Court Act of 1897.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I understand the hon. gentleman is going to refer to the judges of the Supreme Court. If the Attorney-General has any power over the judges, then the hon. gentleman is in order.

The ATTORXEY-GE>IERAL: I have no power, but I will reply to his arguments.

The CHAIRMAN: As the Attorney-General has no power over the judg-es, the hon. member has no right to refer to them.

Mr. LESIN A: He had no right to discu"s the conduct of judges, but they were dealing with a department which was administered by the Attorney-Geneml, and this was the only oppor­tunity they had of discussing the matter. Under the section he had referred to the judges were empowered to repeal, vary, or alter these rules, and if the Committee could induce them to alter those rules, they should do so. It was time they were altered when a n"tive of Queens­land was prevent"d from being admitted to the bar by some antiquated, musty, barbaric, out-of­date Rules of Court. Some effort should he made to open the doors to thi' young man. His aged mother was dependent upon him for her living, yet he was declared a non-unioniot and a blackleg by this legal trade union, and was kept outside this strongest uninn in the State. He mentioned these matters merely with the object of securing informa,tion, and in order that people outside could also read what was said about the matter.

Mr. KENN A : The case quoted by the hon. member for Clermont showed the hardships that had to be endured by a young man who qualified himself in another State to take a high degree, and was refused permission to practise in Queensland though he was a native of the State.

1905-5;K

The Rules of Conrt were drawn up by the judgee, and were brought into Parliament by a side entrance, and allowed to lay on the t.able for fourteen days, when they became the force of law. These were the rules of the legal trades union of (lueensla nd, and were to the legal trade'· union what the rules of the Trades Hall union, printed in a pamphlet costing ld., were to the Trades Hall. \V hat would be said if the Carpenters' Union had a provision in its rules debarring a carpenter from another State coming to Queensland to work? No one objected to any body of men ]Jrotecting themselves, but it was altogether wrong that the rule9 of this particular trade should be made the force of law. What was that but class legislation, about which they had heard so much? Another matter which he wished to :!raw attention to was that while the Crown Solicitor's Office cost the country £1,440; a year, theyernvloyed a large number oflawyers­one to interpret their land laws, another to draw up their Statutes, in addition to the Attorney­General's staff, and Crown Solicitors in Towns­ville and Brisbane. It seemed that every administrator could not carry out his work with­out having a legal adviser behind him. The Comptroller of Central Sugar Mills consulted a private firm of s"licitors to give him advice. He could not see why that sho::~ld be allowed at all. There was another matter he wished to broach, and it was without any personal feeling, because the Attorney-General was a gentleman for whom he had the very highest respect. But the Attorney-General was drawing £1,000 a year­[The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No, no !]-well, £750, and why should he be allowed to take outside briefs? The present Attorney-General was not such a great sinner in that direction as others had been, but the principle was wrong. Under section 6 of the Constitution Act, if any member of Parliament entered into any agreement with the Crown for which he received p<~yment, he became disqualified as a member. \Vhy should the Attorney-General be treated differently to a private member? If amemberowned a newspaper and he accepted an advertisement from the Govemment, his seat was liable to f•)rfeiture. If an ordinary member was not allowed to take a Government contract for his newspaper, why should a legal member be allowed to scoop in unlimited public money in the exercise of his profession and go unscathed ? The principle under which an Attornev-General was allowed to brief himself, and to pnctically fix his own fees, had led to a good deal of abuse in the past. The present Attnmey-Generul was rather to be commended for his moderation in that respect, but, at the same t1me, the principle was wrong.

Mr. REINHOLD agreed with the sentiments. expressed by the Attorney-General with 1egard to the late Under Secretary for Justice, and he also congratulated him on the appointment he had made in succession to that gentleman. From all he had heard, and frorn what he knew the appointment was a popular one. \Vben th; late Under Secretary was appointed, the posi­tion of chief clerk seemed to be done away with. but it appeared that it was now recreated. The changes in the department had lEd to the promotion of a number of officers, but there did not seem to be any good reason why one should receive an increase of £50, others £20, and others only £10. Tben, again, some of those officers had received promotion on bt April, and they had received a second promotion on 1st November. So far as those officers were con­cerned it was all right; but it was unsatisfactory in view of the fact that in other departments there were officers who had been longer in the service and who had received no promotion for five or six years. He found th»t in one department

Mr. Reinhold.]

1666 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

there were five clerks receiving an average of £146 per annum ; in another Eeven clerks received an average of £124; in another three clerks received an avel'a.ge of £150; in another fh·e clerks received an averal'(e of £20() ; and in another eight clerks received an rcvemge of only £105. In still another department seven clerk's received an average salary of only £()4, and he would like to know why such differences existed. He would also like the Attornev­General to explain why the promotions be bad refened to varied so greatly, without any apparent reason.

The A'l'TOR:'\'EY-GENERAL: The first point he would refer to was the criticism with reference to the appointment of a person other than the Crown Solicitor as Under Secretary. If the hon. member who made that criticism occupied his position, he would do ~xactly as he had done. [Mr. KERR: The Crown Solicitor doPs not earn his money, and he ought tobeputoutofthejob.J [Hon.R. PHILP: You have no right to say th>tt. \Vhat do you know about solicitors' work?] The Uncler Secretary had to dnl htrgely with the administrative func­tions of the department, and to assist him in the office he had a staff of clerks. The Crown Solicitor dealt with matters of conveyancing, the prevaration of briefs and of cases for all other Go­vernment departments, including the Department of Justice, with Crown cases and Crown cases reserved, and with all the multitudinous matters in connection with witnes:::es, Subpmna", and so on. Anyone with technical knowledge would hardly contend that it was possible to amalga­mate the two offices. Being of that opiniun, he made the appointwent lw did, and hro believed it would rHnlt in efficiency and credit to the department and to the State. \Vith reference to certain legal ~.vork being given to outside firrr1s of solicitm:s in connection with the central sugar-mills, the reason for that was because an immense amount of public money had been sunk in those mills. Tba Government found the mills in a certain state to which he would not refer, but which rendered legal proceedings necessary, and a most careful scrutiny into the history of the trans;wtions of those mills. It was utterly impossible for the wOl'k to be done by tbe Crown Solicitor if he were to attend to his ordinary duties, and accordingly the services of 3-fessrs. Chambers, Bruce, and McNab were obtained. He had no doubt it would cost a good sum, hut they were very good solicitors, and in selecting them the Government were actuated bv the belief that they were fitted to do the 'work. [Mr. MAXWIU"T': Dr. Maxwell selected them himself.] He might have approved of thern. If he did, then he had chosen a good firm, and the firm would do the work well, and if it

was done well, it would result in [G.30 p.m.] the sugar business being placed on

a sound basis. [:VIr. P.\GET: No amount of legal work will d<> that-it will be done by a good season.] Legal work would do a great deal in deciding the relations of the Crown to the tenant, and also settle the question as to whether the Crown had the right to foreclose, and other matter" as well. There was over £750,000 involved, and it was nece,sary to have the highest skill, and to pay proper fees to get proper assist­ance in the matter. 'rh at was the reason that out­side assistance had been obtained. It was utterly impossible for the Crown Solicitor to attend to that matter in addition to his ordinary duties. i\Iention had been made by the hon. members for Clermont and Bowen as to the amount which he (Mr. Blair) had received from the Crown in fees, and the suggestion had been offered that he might well imitate the action of Judge Higginbotham. He did not mind the

[Mr. Reinhold.

suggestion being made in a friendly way, and if he thought it was a good one r1e would be proud tn follow it; but so lung as he was in his present position, and he did any work for the department, he intended to be paid for t.h,,t work. He thought it was only a fair thing that he should be paid for any work done, and he could only reiterate what he had said on the l~stimates last year-that the Attorney-General, no matter who he might be, w;;s naturally, by his attend:mce in P<trliament anrl at depart­ments, deprived of following hb private practiee. He was allowed to take certain emoluments by virtue of his office, and he had restricted those in his case to consultations and to fees on briefs. He had never taken a refresher in a case in which he had not appeared. Hon. members would recollect that they had had about six sessions in two years, and the result had been practically to deprive him of a single brief in private practice. He thought it would be admitted that it was only a fair thing that if people did work outside the ordinary duties for which they received a stipulated salary, they should be paid for that work, and if the fees they rEoceived were reason­able there should be no mwil at them. He wished to point out-particularly to the hon. rnernber fqr Clern1ont, who was desirous of ob­taining information on thnee matters-that the fees paid to counsel for the firwncial year were about £1,000 less than the amount paid in the last financial year. They had been cnt down to what he thought even the most critical would agree was a reasonable arnount. It did not follow, because it appwtrer! on the Estimates that the Crown had paid those sums, that the Tre:;sury was out of that amount. They probably got back three-fourths of those fees in the costs that were awarded to them. [:\Jr. LRSI'\" A :

Could not the exact amount he given to the Committee?] No douht it conld, bnt it would mean a lot of extra cleric>tl work. \Vit.h regard to the fee paid to 1\lr. vV oolcock--he had been appointed Crown Pro~ecutor in the un~tvnid­able absence of ;)/Jr. Kingsbury, and ho took the sittings at Ipswich, which extended over a fortnight. That would explain the large amount p9jd to Mr. \Voo!cock-an amount which was honAstly earnt>d, and to which he wa.-; entitled. The amount paid to :\fr. Grant, technically speaking, was not a fee at all, but in the table be hao! eJleavoured to show every penny that had been paid out. Mr. Grant had received an arnount for acting as DPputy Registrar pend~ ing the appointment of the present Registrar, so that it was really a salary for t.he time being.· \Vitb reg11rd to the Insurance Act referred to by the hon. member for Burke, he could only reiterate what he said previously-that it might be well if the Insurance Act were amended in certain direcLions, particularly in securing a larger deposit being made in order to guarantee the bonn fides of the company. \Vith regard to witnesses-witnesses attending in inferior courts were paid on the recommendation of the Com­missioner of Police, who wa.s familiar with their attendance, and the payments and allowances were made according to scale. He had never had any difficulty in dealing with cases, because, if a witness felt himself aggrieved, he had only to approac:h the departm>'nt and he would receive every consideration. [Mr. LESINA : ·what about the man I referred to.] As f"r a" he ~oulrl remem­ber, that man came to him and said he was pnt in an exceedingly awkward position by being practically kept away from work, and was not receiving witness's expenses. The man can1e to him from the Home Secretary's Office, and he told him he would look into the matter. He did not see him apin until th~ Mond"y following, and he had then been sent by the Home Secre-

Supply. [16 NovEMBER.] Supp7_y. 1667

'buy's Office again. The man had forgotten he had been to see him before, and hon. members could imagine what causpd the lapse of memory. He (:Vlr. Bhir) had found, on inquiry, that the police offemd to pay for his lorigings, but he wanted a certain sum to be paid him, so that he conlcl go and live in a tent. 'IVith regard to the point raised by the junior mem­ber for South B, isbane, he believed that some of the officers of his department were con­sidered to be rather lucky, as they had had increaSE''· He c.mlrl assure hon. members that they deserved those increases. Death had in­tervened, and he had been able to make a saving and utilise a portion of the salary in giving well-deserved increases, and where con· spicuous merit had been shown he had not hesitated to give increases-in one case £50, in another £20, and in another £10. He believc>d that the men were doing therr work well, and they ought to be paid thooe rates. That was the only explanation he had to give, and he believed everv member of the House would agree with him that people who were doing their work well should receive a salary in proportion to the work they did. He had done the best with the amount at his disposal. He regretted, in many case~, he had not been able to gi,-e increases, but he hoped, by tran~fers, there was a good tirne cmuing for other officms. \Vith regard to Mr. Sa.lkeld's case, he promised last year to go into the matter, and later on a deputaLion waited on hi1n, whu jm­pressed him with the strength of the claim. The case, in certain aHpeets, presented a phase worthy ,,f consider<ttion. 1\ir. Salkeld was a State 'chool student ; he proceeded to the grannnar school, obtained a university exhibi­tion, >tml then vroceeded to MeliJOurne Univer­sity, wi-,erEJ he to,,k the LL.B. dc'gree. That, in Y~ictoria, \vonld entitle hirn to adrni~Rion, accord~ ing to statute law, aR a barrister and .solicito1·, but not a':l a ban·it-Jter or ::;;olicitor, the }Jrofe.-,~ ~ions there being arnalgmnated. In Queensland, the din .... ion, \Vhieh in his judgrnent was a, proper one, was still recognised, aud a 1nan rnust be adrnitted either as a ba,rrister or '";olicitor. ?\o verrh)H cmuing frorn Victoria could be admiUed as a ba.rri~ter here, becaus~, he was a kind uf hybrir]. ::\Ir. Salkeld had hLrl, he believed, a brilliant careel'. He had taken a degrre and came hert-> asking fur ::v_hnission as a barriMter, and be was told, uot that he tHust go through all the examinati(ll1S again, 1Jut tha.t he 1nust \\a it t\VO years and pass a final exarnination. Sonwwhat naturally, he took exception to tbat. ::\1r. 1\Inr.-;e, he believed, who wa,s now dead, v, :--1s also a Victorian student, and he met wi\h the same difficulty, but the late Attorney-General, the 1-I•m. T. J. Byrnes, got the .iudgcs to pass a rule a.llowing his admissiPn. That was stmp1y because .Mr. 1Hrm;e had gone to the nni ver,ity before the ruh•s were passed, and consequentl:v went in jgnorance. lie h~td no duubt l\.1r. Sal­keld bad never consirlered that point. J-!e went down to -Victoria in ignorance of the rule, but, unfortunatPly for hitn, it was in exi:.;tence at the time he went. l'v1r. Salkeld addressed :-t n1en1nrandnrn to hin1, which he fonvarded to the Chief .Jnstice, who consulted the Nort.h"rn and Central judges \!\·hen thPy werc--J in BriRLane, and they, in the LiCe of all circumstance-, felt they could not interfere. He (:Yir. Blair) ha.cl no power whatever to interfere, but the House could, of course, pass " law Sl>ecincally dealing with Queensland cases such as :Mr. Salkeld's. He thliught he had satisfactorily explained everything to which allusion had been made. [.i\Ir·. MAX\VB;LL: \Vbat about the C•18ts given against the Crown iu Hockhampton ?] If costs were given against the Crown, all he could say was that the Crown would have to pay them.

Mr. MAXIV:ELL: Touching on the case of the Crown ~olicitor, he understood that Dr. l\1axwell would not trust him to do the work of the Sugar Bureau, b~cause it waR thought he \va.s not cmnpetent, and he understood there was a feeling a1nougst C:'rtain 1-linisters that that was the ca~e. If the n1an \Vas nut cornpetent, why not get rid of him? He did not know the man him,;eli, but he did not hesitate to say that it would b" very much better to pay a good salary to a compe,ent man.

Mr. HAWTHORN : It was only right that he should say that he considered Mr. Hellica.r, the present Crown Solicitor, a perfectly compe­tent rnan. He was a nHtn of many years' experi­ence, and had had a large and varied practice, and was quite up to the work. 'l'he explanation of the Attorney-General was quite sati~factory. :Mr. Hellicar had a large amount of work to perform for the Crown without undertaking the work of the Sugar Bureau, which was a matter requiring special study and applica­tion. The hon. gentleman was quite right in giving some other solicitor .m opportunity of doin,; the work.

Mr. MAXWELL : They had to do justice to the taxpayer~ outside, and if a wan was not fit for the work he should not be employed. He understood there were t'\\'0 .:}liuister~ who took W<•rk away from the Crow!l Solicitor. l\Ir. Hellicar might be competent, but be had his doubts.

1Ir. LESI?\ .c\. nuticec1 in the Goarie1' an ad ver­tisernent, ::;igDed b} an officer of the .Justice Departnwnt, calling for a}Jplicatium; for the position of pnblic ext;Cutwner aud fLltf'llator, for wbich testitnonials we1e re(1uired. How n1any applications had been reGeiH:d?

.Mr. J. LEAI-:IY referred to "'sale of land by a loc<1l authority recently, where a rnan bonght D fM . .:res, \-vhen it afterward::; tnrned out that there were only 7 acres iu~tead l)f 9. The Crown re~ cei vecl tlw price of the 2 acres which they did not sell, but refu-.;ed to r· that the man hrtd any clain1 whnltever, touk np thu posiM tiuu that they were not responsible. It appeared that anything realised over and above the mnuunt of the rate-.; passed into the Treasury. He hoped ih,; Atturne_y-G"neral would see his way to rectify a matter of this kind.

The ATTORJ'\EY-GE='IERAL: The matter had L.'fm bnmght before him, },ut the facts did not tally V1itb the ca~e montionerl. by the hon. member. He agreed with the vi,-w that if there was a surplut-i after th0 rate:; had been satisfit:d, tbat amount should be held in nust for the verson to whom it would bn,ve r1rigiua1ly gone, and he wonid look into the ('::t;:;e 1nentioned by the hon. member. \V it h reg>trd to the Didcl)t licensing case, referretl tn by the hon. mernber fur Burnett, he \I·Onld point out that it came under the Home Secretary's Department. He had nothing to dn with lic':'nsing justices, nor had he any po..-ve.r to <\I_!lJPint justices or to con~ sider the re.--ignation of j11stices, as that power belonged to the Chief tlecretary. Tbe police ru:u:(i.<trate had Leen sent up by the Department of .TusticP, in conformity with the usn·,J practice w hi eh was in existence long before the Dopart­mult of Justice existed. That pmctice was that \vhere it was ctdvisable, and people in the rlistrict asked I or a. police w:•.grstrate, the Department of Ju;.,tice r-~.hv~1ys conf-.idered their request, and, if it were reasona-ble, the officer was sent up. The request wa~ 111ade by l\Iessrs. Cha1nbers, J3ruce, and l\IcNab to have the police magistrate sent np, and he was sent up and gave his: flecision. The department bad consulled Mr. Ranking,

Hon. J. W. Blair.]

1668 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl,y.

the metropolitan police magistrate, as to his practice, and he could assure the Committee that there was nothing to cavil at.

Mr. GRANT had not understood the hon. gentleman's reply with regard to light-weight bread nr<'secutions. There were a number of cases clecrded in t:ockhampton, and costs given against the Crown, which l"td not been paid. He wanted to know if the Crown took up the position that they did not pay costs in those cases.

The ATTORJ\EY-GENERAL said those prosecutions came under the Revenue Depart­ment, where the papels would be dealt with by the Treasurer before they came to him.

Mr. LESINA asked if it was true that the department had received a statement of claim from :Mr. Le V aux in connection with his arrest for the murder of Mr. Lumberg in the Cairns district?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I have not received any papers.

Question put and passed.

PARLIAil!RXTAHY DRAFTS>!AN.

The AT'rORNEY-GENERAL moved that £500 be granted for the "Parliamentary Drafts­man."

Question put and passed.

CROWN SOLICITOR (BRISBANE).

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £1,440 be granted for salaries and contingencies

for the "Crown Solicitor (Brisbane)." [10 p. m. J There was an increase of £10 in the

vote. That was owing- to the clerk's salary being increased from £100 to £110.

Question put and passed.

CROWN SOLICITOH (TOWNSVILLE).

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £465 be granted for salaries and contingencies for the "Crown Soli0itor, Townsville." The amount was the same as last year.

Question put and passed.

~UPRE)!E COURT (SOUTHERN DIVISION),

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £5,217 be granted for salaries and contingencies for the "Supreme Court (Southern Division)." The vote was reduced by £80. The salaries of two messengers were increased by £10, and there was a saving of £100, which was the two months' salary of the late J. L. Blood-Smyth. The other amounts were the same.

Mr. BOUCHARD, referring to the rearrange­ment consequent upon the death of the late Registrar ot the Supreme Court, pointed out that formerly there were three officers-the Registrar, the Deputy Regi.,trar, and the Taxing Otficer-while now there were only two-the Registrar and Deputy Registrar, who was also 'I'axing Otficer. Both gentlemen were very capable officers, and, owing to press of work in the Supreme Court, they frequently worked clay and night, and by re~son of the rearrangement they were unabk to get the annual leave to which they "ere entitled. He hoped that the Minister wnnlcl make some prO\-ision whereby they would be enabled to get the leave which the regulations ]Jrovided they should have.

SUPltE}!R COURT (NOHTHER~ DIVISIOX).

The ATTO.RXEY-GE~ERAL moved that £2 100 be granted for salaries and contingencies fo~the "Supreme Court (Northern Division)." The amount was the same as last year.

[HonJ. W. Blair

Mr. MAXWELL noticed the messenger and caretaker at Townsville got £100, and the messenger and caretaker at llockhampton got £145. He would like to know the reason for the difference in the salaries, and what were the clu ties of these officials.

Mr. PAGE1': Both of the officials referred to did practically the same duty, and the one who lived 300 or 400 miles further north got £45 less,. although his living expenses must certainly be more than the other.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The mes­senger and caretaker in the Northern division had an allowance of £25 for quarters as well. The caretaker at Rockhampton was the senior officer, and he received £145. [Mr. MAXWELL: Wh:1t are his duties?] He attended to all the offices there, and his time was fully occupied.

Question put and passed.

SUPREillE COURT (CEXTHAL DIVISION).

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £1,25f5 be granted for the "Supreme Court (Central Division)." There was a reduction of £-!0 in the vote. ]l;lr. Fraser resigned his appointment as Registrar, and ~1r. Gair was appointed at a salary of £350, which was £:35les·· than l'lfr. Fraser recei vecl. The opportunity was then taken to increase the salary of the clerk, Mr. \Voolcock, from £60 to £70.

Mr. MAXWELL : Did the caretaker perform other duties outside? He believed he got £150 for other duties in addition to what he got from the Crown.

The ATTOR?-IEY-GENERAL understood that this was rather a superior caretaker, and that, after hours, he instructed pupils in the technical college in shorthand. He did not know what remuneration he received.

Question put and passed.

SHERH'l<',

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £3,370 be granted for the "Sheriff." The vote had been reduced by £70.

Mr. P AGET noticed that the item "Allow­ances to jurors attending Supreme and District Courts, £2,000," was the s»me as la't year, whilst he found that £2,5G4 had actually been spent last year. Did the hon. gentleman think the amount asked for was sutficient?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: The reason the vote proved insufficient last year was because of protracted sittings. It was almost impos­sible to forecast accurately what would be required, but he thought the vote would prove sutlicient.

Mr. MURPHY : Last year the hon. gentle­man said that he would tr} and pay jurors in the X orth the old rate of 10s. a clay. The boo. gentleman pointed out that he had received no complaints, but he did not suppose jurors thought it wouid do any good if they com­plained. He wanted to know whether the de­partment had carried out the promise the hon. gentleman gave ?

The ATTORNEY·GENERAL: The promise he made was that, in cases of hardship, if appli­cation were made to him, they would be con­sidered on their merits, and if he found that the scale was working prejudicially to the jurors he would undertake to have it rescinded. Nu com­plaints had been made to him, and therefore the regulation had not been rescinded; but, if he found that it was working harshly, he would cer­tainly recommend the Cabinet to rescind it.

Suppl;Y. [16 NovEMBER.] Suppl,y. 1669

Mr. LESINA did not sympathise with Northern member" who brought thia que"tion up. He wished to impress upon jurors in all parts of the country that, in conse'luence of members supporting the Government in deliber­ately handing over £2G,OOO to the Orient Com­pany, there was no money to pay the old scale of jurors' fees. He bad rea,on to believe that the Attorney-General would have increased the vote this year, but he was over-n1led by other members of the Cabinet through the infiL1ence of the hon. member for Oxley, who wanted that £26,000 for the Orient Company.

Mr. FUDGE: There was a good de"'l of dis­satisfaction among jurors, who did not consider that they bad been well treated. They harl to come long distances to attend the sittings of the courts at great inconvenience to the1nsel ve~, and tl1ey should cert,inly receive the old rato of 10s. a day. Another matter to which lw wished to direct the attention of the Attorney-General was the very primitive seats that were provided for jurors in the courthouse at 2\Lckay. If chairs were sub,tituted it wonld be a great improve­ment. He asked the hem. gentleman to make sorne inquiries ~mto the 1natter.

The ATTOl:tNEY-GE:;-ERAL said that he ,·would rnake inquiries.

(~LH~~tion put and passed.

~OI!THEHN SHEHIFJ<'.

The ATT'ORNEY-GEN}:RAL moved that £f>7;) be granted for the" Northern Sheriff." The vote wa:s exactly the smne a:::; last year.

Question put and passed.

ll!STRICT COt:h1'S.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved that £8,530 he granted for " Di:-3trict Courts.'' rl1he vote was reduced by £(\00. Travelling expenses of the judges and Crown nrooecutors had been reduced from £1,200 to £1,100, and other reductions had been macle.

Mr. KERR thought economy had been prac­tised too much in connection with this vote. At one time District Courts were held ctt Tamho and Blackall, but now the court only sat at 13arcal­dine, and prisoners :md witnesses hRcl to travel frm~1 those vlaces either to ltockhan1ptnn or to Barcaldine. At the time the courts \Vere dis­continued at Tambo and Blaclnll there rni<>·ht have been some reason for econorni.~ing, but 'the time had now arrived when th.· re might be an extension of the places of Hitting. \Yitnesses we~e put.to great inconvenience in ba ving t() lertve bhea businesses, and the feFs they recPi ved diri. not rt•compen~e them for the expens8 they were put to. The reason for the abolition of the Di"trict Conrts at Blacka..ll a,nd Tarn bD wa.~ because of the euorrnous expentSe of the eoa,ch fare-the a.rnount charged by the co:'ch company for o, private cmtch or bnggy taking the jnclge from Charleville to Blackall, and from Blackall to Tamb:J. But if the dates had heen i<rran«ed when the jurlge and the Cr<nvn Prn'~·ecutor ~vere at Ba.r­caldine, they could bave got a caach ><t a very much cheaper rate from Barc><ldiue to Blaclm!l, and then on to T,unbo and back agCLin. He Lmderstood that the amount charged was some­thing like £75 for a privctte coach. No wonder the department had to make some saving ! If the officers of the department had pnt their brains to work they could have found ont a much better and cheaper way, and they need not have t'lken away from those cli,tricts the Dis­trict Courts thctt h,td been held there in the past. The time had just about arrived when some of those courts should be reopened.

Mr. KENNA a],,o wished to say something on this matter. The District Court at Bowen wets abolished some time ago. A new district was springing up about :)0 rniles to the ~outh, where there was a much larger population than most people imagined. A man arrested there was brought before the local justices, but when the case came on for trial he had to he carted 50 miles by coach to Bow en, and then 100 miles fur­ther North to To\vnsville, 1.vhich was the nearest District Court. Supposing a 1nan, after bPing ti<ken that di··tance, was discharged, h~e lutd to find his way home as best he con:d. He hoped the Attorney-General would reopen some of the Districts Courts as soon as po.sible, and that consider.ttion would be given to the District Court at Bowen.

Mr. PAGJ<:T pointed out that, if the vote were paf',ecl, the 1\Iinister had it in his power to rai:::e the jur()r~' fee:-' to \Vhat they were before witl"lout exceeding the arnount no\v asked for. The vc,te for contingencies last year was £fi,010, and only £3,305 w,t' spent. One of tho e items was alhnvances to witne·'·es and jurors, for which £3,500 wa& being asked this y~::ar, ·while last y?ar the expenditure w:ts only £:2,ll:i5. It was only reasonable that men \Vho ,\·ere taken a\vay frorn their business during a "ea:-on \Yhen they could ill atfur<l to be awcty should receive a f«ir com­pensation.

The ATTORXEY-GEIO~RAL: Perhaps the tirne had arrived_ when a revicjion of the ::nnonnt of busine'O which mi,;ht be done in the Districts Courts alluded to by hnn. members should be n1ade. 'l'~he ref!~-;un those court-., were abolished was becau~e the records of business done did not ju::;tify their continuancd. _At Barcaldine, in 1H02, there \Vere I criminal cases and no ci,,il casf:-'s. In 1~)03, crir11inal cases 1, ci vii cases 1 ; in 190-1, crirnlnal cases 3 1 civil cases 1. At Blackall, in 1\)02, 1U03, and 1\JO±, there were no criminal cases and no civil cases; and, under tho~e circurnstancetl, he could not recon1n1end that a court be contin,1ed there. In Bowen the court had also been closed owing to the falling off in the work. \Vith regard to increasing the jurors' fee~, if representation~' "'.Vere n1ade to him that those fees were illsnttlcient, he would endea­vour to hnve them increased or the scale altered to meet the views expressed by hon. members.

Qm .. ,tion put and passed.

INSOLYESCY, INTESTACY, AND INSANITY.

The ATTOKi\EY-G K'\EHAL moved that £1,8-10 be g-ranted for "lnsoivenCc', Intestacy, and Insanity." There were ehanges consequent on the appointmc.nt of =\Ir. Hall as ·Gnder Secre-

tary for ,Justice. :VIr. Mole,. the [10.30 p.m.] chief clerk, had been appmnted

depnty oitici, I trustee at .£300, by which a Yery eh serving officer had receiv~d v:o­n1otion. He took thH opportunity of giv1ng in­cnc;aReS to ~Ir. Shielil~ t_,f £201 and "-£10 eaeh to :\lessrs. AJ:;;op and !',Iartin. The savillg nn the whole transier w<~s £430, and the net saving in the two depr.rtments J:lS'i.

Question put and pas~ed.

l<'RIE?\DLY SOCIETIES.

The ATTORKEY-GENERAL moved that £890 be granted for ":Friendly Societies." There was r.,n increase in the vote of £40, as he had fulfilled his promi"e to restore JYfr. Rendle's salary, and had given an increase of £10 to the clerk.

Question put and passed.

Hon. J. W. Blair.]

1670 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

STA}JP OFFICE.

The ATTORXEY-GE~ERAL moved that £2,83il be granted for the ''Stamp Office." The vote had been redn0•'d by £3GO. 'l'he chief clerk, Jl.1r. Hennessy, at !:~00, h~d been appointed police magh;trata at Black;]], and the yacancy was not filled. The l'alary of a clerk had been increased by £10, and two rnessen~ers by £10 each. Also, the salary of the clerk at Rockhamp­ton had been increo,sed by £10.

Hox. R. I' HI LP thought it was false economy to have no one in ch"rge of the stamp office. lTbe ATTORNEY-GEXE!\AL: ;\[r. Mitche!l is in charge.] They would undoubtedly lose money unless a con1petent 1nan waR in charge, and he did not know that JI.Ir. Mitchell had the neces­sary experience. \Vhen Mr. Milman left be believed the Government lost in one estate his salary for ten years. It \Vas neeesi"ary to have a rnan in charge who had smne kn(Jwledge of property. The office was very well conducted in the time of JI.Ir. Milman, ::\Ir. Henne,sy, and Mr. Monteith, all of whom were excellent officers. The department ought to be " big revenue producing one, anrl be wnuld recom~ mend the Governlllent to have a very cornpetent man there to look after the work. He thought they should bn told why J\lr. Hennesoy and Mr. Montieth left.

The ATTORXEY-GENERAL could a;sure the hon. member that the office was efficiently carried on. ::\lr. Hennessy left the office because it was reported to him tbat he was not needed there, and he found him a position :ts police magistrate at Blackall, where be was doing very satisfactorily. It was recommended before last Estimates that 1\Ir . .iVIonteitb's services be dis­pensed with. He had been offered a position as assessor in the Income Tax office at £220, but preferred to commence private practiee. He was a good officer, !Jut it was thonght he could be done withont.

Mr. LESINA asked if it was necessary to have a legal adviser to the stamp commissioners

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Yes; the legal adviser was :iY1r. Gore J ones, who was also Master of Titles.

Question put and pasBed.

DESIGNS AND TRADE MARKS.

The AI'TORXEY-GENERAL moved that £340 be granted for'' Dw igos and Trade Mar b." The provision was for six 1-nonth."J in view of the transfer of the office to the Commonwealth.

Mr. PAG.B~T: The Commonwealth had taken over the Patents Office, bnt in the event of its not taking over the Designs and Trades lYiarks, would the office be con tinned ?

The ATTORXEY-GENERAL: Yes; it will have to he.

Question put and passed.

TITLES.

The ATTOR)[EY-GENERAL moved that £6,020 be granted fnr "Titles." The vote had been reduced by £250. At Townsville there bad been a second deputy registrar of titles appointed without increase in salary.

Questioo put and passed.

CODilTS OP PET'I'Y SESSTOSS.

The ATTOR::"rEY-GEXERAL nwved that £24,922 be granted for" l'olice Magistrates and Clerks of Petty Sessions." The vote showed an increase of £31.

Mr. FOHSYTH referred to the fact that there was no police magistrate at Burketown. He

[Hon. J. W. Blair.

had discnssed tbe matter with tbe Attorner­Geneml recently, who had endeavoured to arrenge that the Commonwealth officer in cherge of CuRtoms should take over the duties. That office was filled by the sergeant of police. There would be a lot of extra work: in connection with the Burketown and Lilydale tramway and lea~es on n1ining f]pJds, and, as the acting sergeant of police would not be <tble to attend to the duties, they wanted " police magistrate or a clerk of petty sessions appointed. Would the Attorney­General give them a promise that in the event of a coni:iiderable amount nf work during the next six rnonths in connection with the \Varden)s court that he would anDoint someone to take up the dutie~ of police rnagistrate or ftcting clerk of petty sessions' The licensing lwnch should have been held there some time ago, a;Jd they had not a 'ingle justice to sit on the bench, and the departn1ent. bad informed him that thev would endea.vonr to get onP to go fr01n Xonnrtn­ton, which would cost £-10 or £50, but it was not done.

Mr. P AG ET: In connection with the Mackay clerk of petty sessions, there was an item of £150 for a youug lady clerk, and he asked the ::\lin­ister if the appointment was to be a pennanent one, and the young lady would not be shifted to some other placB?

The ATTOR.:'\EY-GENERAL: In answer to the hon. member for Mackay, the appnint­ment he referred to was a permanent appoint­ment. Both the bon. member for Oaqwntaria and the hon. member f,,r Croydon had ap­proached the department with regard to the appointn1eilt of a police magistrate at Bmke.­town. From inquiries made at the Lands Department, he found their work was being done satisfactorily, and a similar reply had been received from the Trea'ill'Y and the Home Secre­tary's Department, and one not quite so satis­factory from the Mines Department, and he did not think all the other work amounted to a snap of the fingers. The Chief Secretary had ap­proached the Oommonwe::tltb, and made an arrangement by which the postmaster shared some of the work, taking (!..Way practically three~ fourths of the duties of Sergeant Coles. If that arrangement worked unsatisfactorily, and through the building of the Cluncurry line the work increased be would ha,-e no hesitation in recom­mending 'the appointment of a police magistrate there.

HoN. R. PHILP: The post office officials :md Customs officials were federal officers, and he suggested that the appointment should be given to the schoolmaster there, as he was a capable man, and, in additi~m, he was a State officer. He would be glad of the extra emolnrnent, and he wonld have more time to attend to the work than a post. office official. [The ATTORXEY­Gg;.;EHAL: Thttt migbt be a rea,sonable thing.} He noticed th>tt the clerk of petty se~,;ions at Townsville, one nf the most important towns in the State got £250, the assistant clerk got £100, and the' clerk £60, while the clerk of petty sessions at Rockharnpton got £350, with an assistant at £130 and a clerk »t £100. At Too­woomba the clerk of petty sessions got £300, and at \Varwick the clerk of petty sessions received £270. The N ortb was a more trying clim:tte, and it was 1nnre expensive living there, and he certainlv thmwht the clerk of fletty sessions at Townsv1lle sh~uld be better paid. The officers were working every Sunday, and they should get extra assistance.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained that he was ha vine: an inspection made of the Towns­ville office. Mr. Curtis, clerk of petty sessions

Supply. [17 NovEMBER.] Iderazwy Purchase Bill. Hl71

at Townsville, was a much younger man than 1fr. Bun·owes, clerk of petty sessions at Rock­hampton, though he had dune exceptionally good work.

Mr. LESIKA asked what changes had taken place in connection with the appointment of a police magistrate at Ingham?

The ATTORi'\EY-GEXERAL: 1Ir. Ban­bury, clerk of petty sessions at 1Iaryborough, had been appointed p,Jlice magistrate at Ingham, and there was a saving of £50 on the former police magistrate's ::; · lary.

Mr .• TOXES asked why the police magistrate frcJm iYLtryborough had been sent to Degilbo to try a case there?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: A re~uest was made by solicitur,s outside the dqJartmentJ fnr hin1 to be ::::ent there, and, acting in accordance with the practice of the department, he was sent up, and adjudicated aceordingly.

~1r. JOKES: Mount Perry was a large town in his electorate, :md a police magistrate rarely, if ever, visited there. He thought some pro­vision should be made for the visits of a police magistrate, as important C<lses, including cattle­stealing, had often to be tried there.

Mr. l\IELSOX thought the police magistrate from Bunclaberg should visit :!Yiount Perry. Under the present law certain documents con­nected with newspapers had to be witneised by a police 1nagistrate, and in one instance it took eight months to get the papers witnessed. There were "!so many cases there, and the local justices of the peace were not too competent. [Honour­able members: Oh, oh!] One scandalous case had occurred in which a man was charged with being in posset-1sion of stolen goods, to wit, poultry. There was absolutely no evidence of any poultry h :ving been stolen in the district, but one of the justices had lost some fowh pre­viously, and he (l\'l:r. Nielson) supposed, on general principles, they felt they must give se, me­one three rnonth8 as a \varning, and this rnan got it. He (l\lr. Nielsen) only discovered thi< three weeks before the man's time expired, and it was then too late to take action to get him out. A police magiNtrate should go to iYiount Perry, as never a week passed unless there were six police or petty debts case'·

Mr. HA1tDACRE noticed that police who acted as c.erks of petty 'essions were all paid £15 e~ch. In some cases that amount was suffi­cient for the work performed, but in others it was quite insufficient. The burdens of the police were incre8,sed year after year, and they were becnrr.inor the packhorse for 'the rest of the departments, which paid nothing for the work the police did. Why should not the Lands Department and other departments pay those men for the work they did for them? In some cases they had to work till midnight, and had son1etimes to c3.ll in the aRRistance of their wives and families. In some cases £15 might he sufficient for the work done, hut eteps should be taken to increase it in special cnses.

The ATTORNEY-GE;\'ERAL had no objec­tion to the police magistrate at Bundaberg nav­ing more frequent visits to iYfount Perry, and he would make inquiries into the matter. "With reg>trd to the point raised by the hon. member for Lsichhardt, £15 wo,s paid to police officers who performed those duties. In addition to that, they receh ed a percentage for acting as income tax receivP-rs, and also fur t.heir work as district registrctrs, and he believed that in some case'il they were also paid for acting as land agents. It might be be,tter to pay them a lump sum if it were possible. In reply to the hon.

member for Townsville, he wished to say that a clerk had already been appointed in the Towns­ville office.

::\Ir. LESIN A : There must be about 100 cases in w hi eh police officers acted as clerks of petty ses.ions. He knew instances in the Central district in whicb policemen had to work till late at night, and also early in the morning, doing work for other departments, and wnnetimes their police work became congested. in con_seq~enc~. They had also at times to call m the a1d of t~e1r familie·'· That was a form of sweatmg whwh should be discountenanced.

Question put and passed.

The Home resumed. The CHAIRliiAN reported progress, and the Committee obtained leave to sit again to~:n1nl'row.

The House adjourned at six minutes past 11 o'clock.