Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 8 JULY 1897

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Dentists Bill [8 JULY,] ;Dentists Bill. 239

THURSDAY, 8 JULY, 1897.

The SPEAKER took the chair at 3 o'clock.

QUESTION. REMOVING TIMBER FROiii ENOGGERA WATER

RESERVE. Mr. FINNEY asked the Secretary for Public

Lr,nds-1. What are the terms of the contract with the

present contractors for the removal of certain sta-nding timber from the watershed of the Enoggera s tomgc t•eservoir?

2. How much timber has been cnt up to the 30th June last, and what has been paid to the depart­ment therc!or?

:t What is the estimated quantity still to be removed, and its money value to the department?

4. Is there any time limit to the contract P If not, when do the department estimate that it will ter­minate?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS replied-

l. To remove 20,000 superficial feet per month, and pay ls. 8<1.. per lOO superficial feet for same within ten days of measurement. 7\o timber to be cut in any watercourse, creek, or gully.

2. 809,512 sHperficial feet. £674 3s. lld. 3. :Xo estimate has been made. 4. 'N'o; about three years.

DENTISTS BILL. SECOND READING.

Mr. BELL: I do not think it is necessary that I should speak at any length in explanation of the provisions of this Bill, because it is familiar to hon. members. It passed its second reading last session, and the diHcussion upon it in committee went. as far as the 11th clause. It was not carried beyond that point, not because of any want of sympathy that it met with at the hands of hon. members, but because time would not allow of its further progress. I may say t.hflt the measure received support and sympathy from many hon. members, some of whom moved and co.rried several amendments. I accepted the wisdom of the Honse, and in this Bill I have embodied all the amendments that were carried last session, with the exception of that which was moved by the hon. member for Burke and carried after a close division. I am not in favour of that amendment, and if the bun. member moves it again I shall oppose it. But if th" amendment is carried I certainly shaH not withdraw the Bill on that account I may remind the House that this measure has received the sanction and support of all dentists of stand­ing in Queensland, that it is similar to Acts with the same objects which have been passed in the other colonies, and that it contains nothing that has not alre"dy been in operation, and, as far as I am aware, in successful operation, elsewhere. I believe hon. members will find that it ia a piece of work that merits to be placed on the statute-book, and I beg to move that it be now read a second time,

Mr. HOOLAN: The hon. member in bringing in this Bill is no doubt actuated bY a sincere desire for the public good. But there" are a great many of us situated in a similar manner in different ways, but the public get very little good from our actuations. The hon. member must be comnlfmde .. J for the des1re he feels to elevate legislation of all kinds, legislators of all kinds, and Bills of all kinds--every­thing, from the entire horse to the dentist. "'Whether the particular class of persons carl'ying on the business called dentistry-that is, tooth-drawing and tooth-stopping and tooth­scr"ping and scratching and plogging and filling and hauling and dragging-whether they are entitled to the particnlar kind of legislation such as we find in this Bill, I am not going to offer any very strong or pronounced opinion upon. That is for the House to de• .. lide. I am for­tunately possessed of what may be termed a very good mouth-sound teeth, wund jaws, and a somewhat long tongue. Dentists have had no occasion to interfere except on one or two trifling occasions, and on those occasiuns the person who interfered in a small way with my teeth was not a dentist at all. He had n'J desire to appear in the public eye as a dentist; at th6 same time he did the business in a work­manlike m::.nner. The hon. member wishes to surround a cettain set of persons carrying on that business with an Act of the legislature which will certainly give those persons not only a very superior standing in society to that which they occupy at pre&ent, but also a very superior st ,nding in the commercial world. The hon. mem­ber for' Dall:;y, with his elevating tendencies, de~ires, presumably, to regulate what may be termed skilled work, and bring it under the he"'d of a profession, wbich i.g no doubt a ver,,· laudable object, looked at from his point of view. But looked at from the point of view of other persons, myself amonget the number, I cannot see that there i> any neces,ity for the Bill at all, or the slightest necessity for interfering with the p rsom called dentists practising in Qneens­hmd. The hon. member says they are a profes­sion, and should be hedg ... ,d m1d hinged round with all hedges and hinges v, hich surround and guard a profession. I maintain they are persons engaged in trade, in a very ordinary trade, a trade cert&inly requiring a little skill and adept­ness, and that. they do not require an Act of ParJi,,ment to re,juhte them. 'rhe hon. member stated bst year, ~nd he has repeated it now, that this Bill is actually necessary, that it has not only received the support of members of the AB~emhlv, but is calle..l fur by a number of persons outside. I deny that any p ,rticular persons :;re cailing for this legislation excccpting a few persons in and aronnd Brisbane, intimate friends of the hon. member, and di1ectly con­cerned in it, inasmuch as it will have the effect of elevating them into superior positions by means of elevating- their pricv< which thP public have to pay. I have no objection t<~ the puhlic paying a higher prier for any partrcular commodity if it "as the public the hon. n;ember particularly caters for:-the refi~ed pubhc,_ ~he highly educated pubhc, the highly sens1t1ve public, the sentimental public, the high-class people of both sexes throughout the colony. But, unfortunately, this does not concern them at all. It concems the poor and the naked, who are quite satisfied with the art of dentistry as pmctised by poor persons calling themselves dentists throughout the colony, and others ":ho travel from placd to place and use tooth-drawmg· and other little arts in connection with people's mouths by way of advertising their . tra~e in other commodities. If tlus BJil pas,es It will be beyond the means of poor persons to employ a dentist. Does the hon. member mean to say that

240 Dentists Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Dentists Bill.

the domestic servant who can now go to a dentist and have her gums scraped if it is necessary, or her teeth filled, and pay for it out of her daily hire, that she will have the same privilege if this Bill !Jasses? I dare say he will tell us in committee, or some of his supporters will tell us now, that she will. I maintain she will not, that this Bill will so raise the prices that poor persons of the domestic order, of the common working herd, will be unable to get anything like a skilled person to undertake the arrangement of their mouths at all. They will hn,ve to go to the bln,cksmith, or the car­penter, or some o"her ordinn,ry tradesman, who is not hedged round by an Act of Parliament. We know that some ten years ago it was almost impossible to procure the aid of a dentist unless you were prepared to pay £1ls. down. But since then a large number of per­sons have set up in the business, and every day, notwithstanding that they are not protected by legislation of this kind, they are growing more numerous. Consequently many years ago, where we found a number of persons going round with very defective mouths, their eye teeth gone, their back teeth gone ; some of them with black teeth, some of them with brown teeth, some of them with teeth in various stages of decav, some of them with very inferior gums, and son1e of them with mouths that are not presentable in good societv. Owing to the increase in the number of dentists, we find that even the poorest persons are now fit to be presented in good society; that anyone of them can stand side by side with the hon. member for Dalby, though we give bim due credit for a good appearance at all times, and for a good set of teeth, and for a very clean mouth. If the Bill came from anyone other than a barrister, we might consider it with better grace than I feel inclined to do; but when it emanates from a member of one of the very closest guilds that we have amongst us it must be viewed with very grave suspicion. \Ve have instances of one close union in the legal profession, and knowing all the sorrows, the troables, the torments, and all the burdens on the public mind caused by that, it would ill befit this Assembly, and woald ill accord with a spirit of wise discrimination, to agree to any legislation that wouid create another close union. The dentists are very useful to the public. If they came along in a body and asked for a Govern­ment sub,idy, there would, perhaps, be some­thing in it. Many of them do a grpat deal of work in distant parts of the colony for very little pay. They work for doubtful customere, and they might well advance their claims on the Government, because a good mouth and a good set of teeth are among the fore­most requisites of mankind and womankind gene­rally, and no one would like the people of the colony to be short in this respect. ·where good teeth are absent, artificial ones must he supplied. Good teeth are necessary for good digestion, good digestion is nece-ssary for good people, an•i good people are what we want. It is our place, there­fore, to see that everyone has a proper set of teeth, and we should try to let them get them cheap rather than increase the price. \Ve know that persons from home and from foreign parts who come here and set up in bu;iness as dentists have had their trade very seriously interfered ~it!;. I a?mit t~at the dentist who comes along m hts carrtage, wrth a large brass plate, and his paraphernalia and tools of trade, and who set; up in an expensive office in a prominent pan of the city, and who keeps a groom, and perhaps a villa outside, and a number of servants, and who expects to pay for it all, to li ~ e high, to take a front seat at the opera and play, and to attend the b:olls and parties and all the society functions,

and to stand side by side with the hon. member for Dalby-I admit that he is seriously interfered with. I certainly do not think it is to his interest to encourage others to come here, because the smaller man has infringed on his occupation. But I contend that it is only right that the smaller man should in­fringe on his occupation, because it is not an occupation that concerns the large man. It is an occupation that concerns the very poorest amongst us. We should have free dentists going at least once a month to repair the poor broken-down old mouths at Dunwich, so that they cn,n masticate the tough stuff that is served up to them at meal times. I would like to see even high-class dentists going to the hospital and doing a little work for nothing. We have not arrived at that stage yet when even the low­priced dentist cares to do that, and if we pass this Bill and fix up a close guild, then poor people can eat with their gums or mn.sh up their food with a hammer preparatory to swallowing. When an hon. member asks us to pass a Bill of this kind, he should be prepared with instance~ of wrong-doing on the part of dentists. Until he does that his propo8ition is not likely to receive serious consideration, because all trades and professions are free, and so long as any person-even a member of this Assembly­cares to go out and fix up his plaster of Paris, or his mud, or his decayed bones, and gather his teeth wherever he may, he can do so. He may make his teeth out of a Queensland product­pearl-shell-if he likes. It would be very satis­tactory if we could turn our P"arls and pearl­shell into sets of teeth, so that we might, without dropping our wisdom into each other's mouths, drop in pearls of great price instead of tl:te pearls that they set before swine. It is not prudent to allow legis­lation of this kind to pass unles• it is sur­rounded with regulations that will safeguard the public in the matter of cheap dentistry. The hon. member said that the clause which was inserted in the Bill last year on the mooiun of the hon. member for Burke-to wit, myself-is now left out of the Bill. Why ? I suppose because, in his estimaLion, it was not worth inserting. Of course, if he takes up that lofty stand, I can tell him that he will have to face both tlmt amendment and a number of other strong ones with it. I am prepared to fetch a full set of the tools of trade, and show the hon. member that I can insert a tooth or draw one just as rapidly as any dentist whom he wants to license by .Act of Parliament. Unfortunately for our­se! ves, bad teeth are a hideous defect, or a disease, which requires remedying. It is right through all the small children; it is right through the ranks of our womankind, and our humanity in various walks of life; and as the working people outnumber the genteel people by ten to one, I maintain that they should receive ten times more coneideration in the matter of legislation. This particularly affects womankind, and our working women h"ve nothing to do with the high-class dentist who cannot put up his eyegl>tsS and look at their back teeth without it is half-a-sovereign. What a ridiculous thing to suppose that senant girls co-n go to a fashionable dentist and pay half-a­sovereign to have a "Haw! haw ! haw!" That is just exactly what occurs now. I do not say that any person with means should not go to a fashionable dentist, where they may sit in a cushioned chair, and be sprinkled with rosewater and everything preparatory to the operation. J_,et them do it by all means. A person is at liberty to have a tooth drawn in a fashionable dentist's shop, or on the bank of the river, or anywhere he likes to have the operation performed; but when we are asked to hedge

Dentists Bill. [8 JULY.) Dentists Bilt. 241

round what I admit is a useful business, and to rahe the price so th'1t poor people are precluded from employing a dentist, we should decline to do so. H is simply absurd to bring in a Bill when, though there are fully lOO persons plying the arh of dentistry in Qneensland, the hon. member cannot point to one serious complaint. There may be trivial complaints, but we know that there are frequent complaints against the members of the le~al profession ; there are com· plaints against the most eminent medical men we have; there are even strong complaints against Ministers of the Crown. There are fearful and awful charges againsh the legal fraternity. Admitting that there are-jush for the sake of illustration-trivial complaints against the dentists, they are not worth looking into. There are no broken jaws, which is one thing that m;ty happen with an inexperienced dentist, although we must admit that there are numerom long jaws, and we have great experience of them in our daily life. There are no shattered gumH, although there are two skilled dentists in the colony who go in for painle's dentistry, and also turn out defective work. I am further prepared to say that if a number of persons have, by their own ingenuity and skill and by the practice of dentistry, attained very good positions in the business which they carrv on with satisfaction to their customers, who are poor people, thm· should be let alone. What may be termed defective mouths are on the increase, and therefore we should try to encourage persons to remedy defective teeth, and supply artificial ones at a cheap rate, and regulate the gums, and everything else neceJ· sary to enable their customers to pnt in a pi·esent­able appearance, and chew their food, which is necessary to their health and digestion. It is onr place to encourage these persons instead of restrict them. If there are certain persons in our midst who cannot keep up the position they would like, then the world is wide, and if they cannot get work enough in the colonie' they should do as other persons do, and the fittest will survive. I contenr\ that what is vulgarly called the "quack dentist" i~ n•·crc,s .• ry to society. His art, such as it is, is very useful and very beneficial, and I stand here as his ad vacate, and shall oppose this Bill all I know from start to finish. L>tst year when the Bill was before us an amendment was carried stipulating that dentists should regulate their charges, but the hon. member has dropped that ont. Certainly it w<ts a very close di vi· sion, but nevertheless it was carried, and if there are certain skilled men who are first-class dentists and who think their dignity is being wounded by a number of persons practising the same art, I have no objection to legislation stating that they are first·class, but I think it would be very unwise to blot out a number of other persons who are only second.clas,, and for whom there is a great amount of work, o.nd of whose services a great number of persons stand in need. If dentists are to be put on a level, we should put society on a level also. At present mouths are on a level but society is not. The high lady is as liable to have a defective mouth as the poor slavey; a ducheos may have as bad teeth as her servant or nursegirl. There are certain persons who will attend upon poor persons for certain fees, but if we want to regu· late the dentists' fees we will have to reg·ulate purses also. If we can fill the domestic's purse with sovereigns every time she wants to go to a first·class dentist I have nothing more to sav; but until the hon. member can show me how h'' can put the dollars into the pocket of the servant girl I must certainly oppose this Bill in the strongest way.

:dr. STEW ART : This is a measure that ought to appeal to the sympathies of every hon,

1897-~

member. The class of men whom it is intended to benefit make a livelihood by operating upon other persons' jaws; but the majority of us are here to make a living b.v op>"rating upon our own. This remark applies with double force perhaps to the hon. member who Is suppo,ed to be the author of this Bill, because in addition to being a memher of this House he is a lawyer. I be­lieve that we are told that the object of the Bill is to protect people against quack dentists, but my honest belief is th tt tlw effect of the Bill will be to protect the dentist, and not the public. It will add to the cost of denti~try without in any way increasing its efficiency. In fact I think the contrary will be the result. As was said by thP hon. member for Bnrke, the object seems to be to elevate into a prore.-"sion wha,t is now an everyday occupation. Dentistry is merely a mechanical operation, althoufih the hon. member who introduced the Bill propose• to elevate it to the dignity and surround it with all the privi­leges of a learned profession. I do not think that it ig desirable in the interests of the public, but let us fir.•t see whether the Bill if passed W<'uld have the effect of incre•,sing the efficiency of dPntistry. What is th<· state of things in the learned professions to.day? No one knows better than the hon. member who has introduced this Bill how easy it is for a man to g8jn a.dmittance into one of the learned pro· fessious, provided that he has a sufficient amount of mon"y, and h<>W difficult it is, notwithst~.nding any amount of ability and l0arning he may po·.-gess, if he ha~ no money. In the profession witl1 which the hon. member himself i,, connected, at one time the sole qualification for obtaining ar\mittance was by eating your way into it; by eating so many dinner'' at a certain inn in London, and even eating the dinners was not compulsory. It was suffieient that tbey should r'ay for the dinners, fiO long as they s t,t dn \Vll and made some pretence of e:1.ting them. If this Bill is passed, it is quite possible that the dentists will follow the' example of their brothers in the legal pro· fession. In the first place, tho·ce admitted to the roll will charge very high premiums for appren­tices, the n~ext place they will incrP1Re their own business charges very materially, as has been so forcibly pointed out by the hon. member for Burke. It is even quitfJ p >Soible that, follow· ing the exarnp1e of ttw lf<5al J!rofession, they will divide themselves into two br~nches, and instead of one man performing the necessary operation upon a hapless wight who has the t"othache, it may take two or three to do it. Thi,; Bill appee.rs to me to place so many difficulties in the way of the public having nece·sary operations performed that I cannot favour the pa"ing of it. It will also have the effect of lessening the efficiency of dentistry, because the spur of competition that makes a man depend upon his ability for support will be withdrawn, and the only qualifica­tion necesqary will be the diploma of a cer~ain board. The more you restrict the profes· sions the less the ability and the more the money required to obtain an entry into them, and under this Bill the only passport into this trade will be the possession of a certain amount of funds. That is a very undesirable state of affairs to bring about. Another objec­tion is that at pre-ent we h:we too mn,ny close guild.~, too many profe Jsions hedged about with artifici·'l restrictions, and this is merely an attempt to add to the nnmber of tl1em. The trend of thought to-day is not to add to the difficulties in the way of p cop le making a living, but to take awa.y those difficnltie'; and, giving the ma'ter the fullest considemtion, I have come to the conclnsion that I shall be acting in the best intere.<ts of the colony in opposing the second reading of this Bill.

242 Dentists Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Shops Earl_y Closing Bill.

Mr. BELL, in reply : The hon. members for Burke and North Hockhampton are much too nervous about the effects of this measure. I would ask what constitutes the greatest danger to the community: a borly of men roaming about, as many do, professing to be qualified to doctor and deal with one of the most delicate portions of the human anatomy and lacking the necessary skill and information ; Ol' a body of men who are what they represent themselves to be, men who are skilled to remedy any defects which may exist in the months of human beings? If it was put to the people to say whether they would prefer to allow of the continuance of the present condition of things under which men are entitled to call themselves dentists who are no more quali­fied to be dentists than the table in front of me, or a state of things under which m<·n could not go about and proclaim themselves to be other than what they really are, the community generally, whether servant girls or any body else, would say that they preferred a condition of things under which they could he sure of going to a man who was qualified for the work he undertook to do. I wi~h the hon. member for Bnrke was in his place to listen to the reasons I wish to put before him to try and induce him to alter his attitude towards this measure. I wish to point out that under this Bill those practising as dentists are entitled to be regis­tered, and we have to make a fresh start with those desiring to practise as dentists in the future. A board, in the composition of which the Government have an important voice, is to be appointed, and this board will lay down certain examinations which those who desire to practise as dentists in the future will be required to pass. In doing thn.t, the Bill is only providing for what is carried out in other profe;sions. An hon. member in this debate spoke of the practice of dentistry as a trar\e, but if there is any meaning in the word at all, the practice of dentistry is a profession. Skill, special manipulation, and a special disposition are required in a dentist, and the business is entitled to be called a profession if any business is. This Bill follows the practice followed in other professions, whether that of medicine or of law, and prescribes an examina­tion for anyone who seeks to set up as an authority and an expert in this particular business. I would ask, if this Bill is such an obnoxious measure, if it interferes with the well-being of servant girls and the poorer class of the com­munity, why is it that in 0ther communities on this continent we find such measures in opera­tion? Why is it that in the democratic country of New South Wales we find such a measure going through both Houses of Parliament? \Vhy does it exist in Victoria and all the other nro­vinces of Australia? Simply because experi~nce has taught the representatives of the people that it is absolutely necessary to prevent unqn111ilied and unauthorised persons fmm goillg through the country calling themselves dentists. The hnn. member for Burke says it was my place to have brought forward examples of the evils which exist. I will admit that I could have made hoth last year and this a far better second rearling speech than I have done. I might have gone to far greater trouble in bringing forward all the arguments that can be brought forward ;n favour of such a Bill, but I rather relied upon what seemed to me common knowledge. I relied upon hon. gentlemen know­ing what I very well know, and what most people know, that there is undoubtedly a danger in allowing men to go about and call them se! ves dentists who are not denti8ts; and although I might have produced Brown, Jone>, and R<>bin­son, and asked them to open their mouths in order that hon. members might see for them­selves what damage has been done ; yet if you

go to any respectable dentists in this town, men whose words can be taken as honest men, they will tell you that they come across hundreds of people whose teeth have been hope]e,;sly damaged by men who ought never to have been allowed to touch their mouths. There are multitudinous instances of people having their mouths ruined by ignorant up­starts. As great a cause exists for this Bill becoming law in this as in the other colonies, and I respectfully submit that we have heard nothing from the hem, n.embers who have spoken that should put us in the position of saying that we will decline to read this Bill a second time" The hon. member for Burke took me to task for embodying all the amendments which were made in the Bill last year, with the exception of that made on his own motion. I opposed the amendment last year, and I do not think I can be accused of ungenerous conduct towards the hon. member if, not believing in the amend­ment, I declined to put it into the Bill. It is open to him to move that amendment again, and if he is able to induce the House that his conten­tion is a sound one, by all means let the amend­ment be canied. I certainly am disposed to oppose it, but when we get the servant-girl argnmeut trotted into a mear,ure of this kind there is a great deal of high-falutin about such a contention. I do not beliel'e that it will be n:ore expensive in the future for people to have their teeth attended to Lhan it has been in the past. I hope the House will not decline to read the Bill a second time, but will agree to it, and, any pro­position which may suggest itself for the better­ment of the Bill may be brought forward when we get into committee.

Question put; and the House divided:­AYEs, 22.

Sir H. rrozer, Messrs. Dalrymple, Dickson, Glas:sey, Turley, Callan, }I cDonneli, Story, Dunsford, Finney, Bell, lHcGahan, Groom, Petrie, Corfield, Cribb, Annear, McMaster, Castling, Stephens, McCord, and Collins.

XOF.S, 19. lHessrs:. Foxton, Philp, Cross, Fitzgerald, Kerr, Boles,

Jaekson, Leahy, Daw8;0l1, licDonald, Hoolan, llardacre, Dibley, Fogarty, Daniels, Browne, Uhataway, O'Connell, and Stewart.

Resolved in the afllrmative; and committal of the Bill made an order for Thursday, 5th August.

SHOPS l<JARL Y CLOSING BILL. SECOND READING,

Mr. McDONNELL : In moving the SEcond reading of this Bill I fully recognise the im­portance of the ta,k I have undertaken to per­form. I would be slow to take up the position of introducing a Bill into this Hou-e on the sub­ject were it not that I believe the question is of such vast importance that something should he done in this direction. Lately a deputation waited on the Acting Premier, and he informed us that the Government could not see their way to introduce such a Bill this sEssion, at the same time he stated that it was at the option of any private member to introduce such a Bill. I therefore, having had a considerable amount of practical experience in this matter, have taken on myself the task of introducing this Bill. I am encouraged in the belief that such a measure will be received in a generous and sympathetic way by a large number of hon. members on both sides; and I 01m [articularly encouraged by the fact that just about two years ago to.day the second reading of a somewhat similar Bill was carried on the voices in this House. That measure wa;, introduced by the present Acting Premier in a speech that showed evidence of generous feeling and kindly sympathy towards those who work in shops throughout Queensland ; and I believe that, except he has altered his opinions, he will give this Bill his

Skops Early Closing Bill. [8 ,JULY.] Skops Barly Closing Bill. 243

sympathy and, I hope, his support. There are three principal reasons why I submit that this Bill should be read a second time. The first is, that under the long-hours system of work in shops, the health and general well-being of a large number of the citizens of this colony are injuriously affected; the second is, that for a number of years strenuous efforts have been mRde to attain general early closing by mutual agreement amongst the shopkeepers, but without the desired effect; and the third is, that every possible means has been exhausted before this legislature has been applied to and asked to deal with the question. I cannot, I think, imprMe on the first reason better than by quoting the words of the Acting Premier himself when introducing the Shops Em ly Closing Bill in 1895, when he said, as will be seen at page 183 of Hansara-

I submit the Bill as au assertion of the principle that it is the right and the duty of the State to interfere, not only with the freedom of any person that is ; oung but with the freedorn of any person who is old, when the physical and moral well-being of the community at large are at stake. That is a proposition that the whole civilised world now reoognises. Later on, referring to the necessity for the Bill, he said-

The Early Closing Association has never made demands which were not reasonable, but it has urged with a considerable amount of skill and ability at all reasonable times upon the community what it now asli:s in this Bill. And later on he said-

It was brought under the notice of the Premier that there are from 1,000 to 1,200 persons: working in shops in Brisbane that keep open late on Saturday night. About 10 per cent. of the retail shops work their em­ployees forty-eight hours a week, closing at 1 o'clock on Saturday; 10 per csmt.-principally drapers-work their employe1s fifty-four hours a week; 10 to 15 per cent., from fifty-four to sixty hours a week; and the bahnce, from sixty to seventy hours a week. Of th" last-mentioned class, about 95 per cent. art~ grocers. In the grocery trade the hours al'e very long, being from 7 in the morning until 6·JO to 7 o'clock at nigh~. and until 11 or u·ao on Saturday night. A number of drapers keep open evm·y night in the week, averaging twelve hours a day. So far as 1 hnve becm able to ascertain, that is a correct statement of the position of affairs in our moFt populons cities. I cannot Improve on the reasons given by the hon. gentleman in 1895; but I will try to show from the evidence given before the Shops, Factories, and Work"hops Commission in 1891, by two medical men of high reputation, that the hours worked in shops throughout Queemland injuriously affect the hP•lth of the penons em­ployed. The Hon. Dr. Taylor, who has been in practice in Brisbane for a good number of years, gave this evidence in reply to the ci1airm'1n of the commission. [The evidence was to the effect that nine hours a day ought to be quito long enough for a person to do light work in a properly ventilated shop; that it was injuriom to work for two or three hours under gaslight, one gas jet YitiaLing the air almost as much as one individual; this was a very prolific cause of the impairment of health.] In reply to myself he gave the follow­ing evidence. [This evidence was that in this climate working in shops is more trying than in the southern coionies, the heat being more pro­longed and enervating; working in shops was decidedly more injuriou.~ to the constitution than working in the open air ; he had come across a number of cases of male shop assistants snffering from chronic indigestion and dy>pepsia.) HJS evidence on these points was fuilv snbstan­tiated and borne out by Dr. Little, who was also examined by the commission. I ~m satisfied that there are very few people in any part of the colony who consider that from fifcy to seventy hours a week is a fair time for assistants to be employed in shops, particularly in view of the climatic comUthns that prevail here, and of the

fact that in many of the shops the ventilation is very bad, and the places clo£e and stuffy. If there are any rnembPn in this House who are opposed to the principle of this Bill, I am sure that if they will visit some of the shops in the city ami suburbs on a Saturday night, and look at the facpo of the women and young men employed in those brilliantly lighted stores, they will come to the conclusion that the long-hour system is leaving, and is likely to leave, its imprint on their after lives. I do not contend that the shopkeepers are solely to blame in this matter ; in fact, I hope to show that several efforts have been made in Brisbane during the la't thirty years to remedy the exist­ing condition of things; Lut in every case when those efforts have been made, the few have been powerful enough to compel ihe majority to go back to the old state of things. I speak with a certain amount of feeling in this matter, res during the time I have worked in shops in Bris­bane I have knuwn many who have gone to early graves as victims of the long-hnur system, but, thongh I bring forward this Bill, I do not do so in any spirit of bravado, or with a desire to claim any credit for my action. If the Acting Premier will give us an as;;urance that the Government will bring in this session a measure embodying the principleo of this Bill, I shall be satisfied to let the matter drop with my speech this evening. But I am anxious to see something done in the matter, because I know what is taking place in this colony as a result of the long-hour system, and I am satisfied that the only pos,ible remedy for the evils that exist is the inter­ference of the strong arm of the State. I need not go bacl< for twenty years to trace the history of the Early Closing .Asjociation. As, however, I anticipate that the principal argu­ment against such a measure as this will be, that while early closing is de,drable-and I believA that ·every hon. member will admit that it is desirable-so that shop assi,tants may be set free and enjoy that recreation that is so essential in a climate like that of Queensland, and, in the words of Sir Samuel Griffith, have time for mental cultnre and self­improvement ; still the movement is one that should be worked by mutual :1greement anrl voluntary action on the part of employers. I shall give a few illnsl.ratious of the results of voluntary effort in this m:ctter in Brisbane during the bst ten years, which will, I think, convince any hon. nwmber who holds that view that this movement can never be "uccessful if it has to depend upon voluntary agreement among the shopkeepers concerned. When t.hA :Early Closing Association was formed about ten years ago its prospects looked very cheering and bright. Immense pnblic meetings of citizens were held in Brisbam,, and addre,sed by mu1 of all shades of political opinion, and fr< m the Press and pulpit spirite:l appeals were made to the people to help on the good work of the early closing movement. I remember that the promoters of that movement recognioed that there was one matter that should be first dealt with-namely, the question of late shopping-and it was decided to Bpproach every single organisation in Brisb.me on that matter. At that time there were a large number of trade and friendly societies, reli~ious and temperance bodies, and other associations, and every one of them was approached officially either personally or by circular, a.nd the members asked to plerlge themselves and their families to refrain from shopping after 6 o'clock. The result wa.R a remarkable decrea"e in the volume of the Saturday night trade at that time. AftPr seven months of hard and incessant work, the association canvassed the shopkeepers in every part of Brisbane on the

244 Shops Early Closing Bill. [.ASSEMBLY.] Shops Ear1;y Closing Bill.

subject, with the result that it was ascertained that the consensus of opinion was in favour of closing at 6 o'clock six nights in the week. Immediately afterwards an agreement was drafted and submitted to the shopkeepers for signature. There the first difficulty begs n, and though a large number of shopkeepers in and around Brisbane signed the agreement, they did so conctitionally that themovementshould be general -th!tt all shops should close at the specified hour. \Ve found it utterly impossible to get all the shop­keepers in Brisbane to sign such an agreement. The fact was that the little shorJkeepers affected those whose shops were a little more extensive; the man who employed one or two assistants was affected by the man who worked with his family alone. And so it went on until the shopkeeper who employed fifty, sixty, or lOO hands was affected by the shopkeeper who employed far less labour. The result was that when the time arrived shopkeepers who had signed the agree· ment had to be released from their pledges. The association then decided that their duty l"y in educating the people on this matter, and I can confidently say that every poseible means were taken to educate the people of Brisbane on the desirability of early-closing, and on their duty in reBpect to late shopping. The Pre, s, as I stated before, gav" a very substantial amount of support to the movement right through, more e-;pecially I may mention the Brisbane Courier and the E1·ening Obscn•er. After three yeous' inces,ant work a fresh scheme was adopted to try and reduce the hours on Saturday night. It was decided that in,,tead of closing at 10 or 11 o'clock an effort should be made to gradually reduce those hours by an hour in every "ix months or even in every twelve months. It was first decided to approach the drapers and tailors in Queen street, Petrie's Bight, and George street ; and after several weeks' hard work all the drapers and tailors in those streets had signed an agreemBnt to close at 9 o'clock on Saturday nights. Then the boot and shoe shops were approached with a similar resuH, and for weeks some hunrlreds and thou­sands of handbills were circulated broadcast throughout Brisbane and the suburbs. The names of the firms who had signed that agree­ment were published in the daily and weekly papers. Clergymen of all religious denomina­tions appealed to the people for their support from the pulpits, and, as the daily Press state" at the time, everything looked cheering; the time had arrived when the shopkePpers at last recognised and had decided to give some relief from the long hours on Saturday night. Bnt when the time did Hrrive, and when the first Saturday night that the closing was to take place came, one shopkeeper, who h~d pledged himself with the others to close at 9 o'clock, would not close till a quarter to 11. In the drapery trade, which affected thirty-threP shops, they all closed loyally the first night to the hour. But before a month was over, despite the efforts of all those who were supporting the movement, with the exception of three or four drapers and tailors who had signed the agreement, every single one of them had gone hack again to the old stace of thing;. One or two shopkeepers bad kept their places open on the second night of earlier closing, with the result that all the others opened on the following Saturday nights. In the boot trade the movement, which had cost such an amount of trouble and money­there was a consirlerable sum of money ex­pended-was simply broken down from the first Saturday night the agreBment came into force. I do not wish to take up the time of the House very much with this matter, but I wish to sub­stantiate the staten,ents I have made, more especially as what occurred then goes to prove

that there can be no reliance placed on voluntary or mutual agreement amongst shopkeepers in this matter. [The hon. member here read ex­tracts from leading articles which appeared in the Evening Obsenw on 9th Sep­tember, 5th September, 1st October, 15th October, and 28th November, 1892, confirm­atory of his statement with regard to the cause of the breakdown of the movement.] It has been shown conclusively that so far as Brisbane is concerned voluntary action is an impossibility. Some years ago the shopkeepers in Rockhampton agreed to clos~ on Saturday at 1 o'clock. For two Saturdays they did so, but two shopkeepers stayed out, with the result that on the third Saturday all the shops were open. I have no doubt the senior member for Rockhamp­ton will be able, d·~ring the course of this debate, to give the House more reliable and recent information of the efforts which have been made in that part of Queen"land to deal with this question. In BTisbane the Early Closing As­sociation has repeatedly tried to bring about early closing, and the shopkeepers therr:sPlves have shown a desire right through to meet the aesistants and reduce the hours of labour. In 18!)5 the Acting Premier introduced an Early Closing Bill, and I am satisfied that from different parts of Queensland he received the support of shopkee[Jers and shop assistants. In Brisbane one of the largest and most important meetings that has ever been held in connection with this question was held in the Protestant Hall, and resolutions eupporting the Government in their efforts to carry the Bill were proposed by several speakers who had been members of the J!'actories and Shops Commission which sat in 1890. The Tr:;ders' Association had several meetings, and drafted amendments in the Bill which they submitted to the hon. gentleman. In fact, he received every possible encouragement, and I was pleased that the Bill passed this House by a large majority. That Bill was defeated in another Chamber. I have tried to avoid the pitfalls and the rocks on which that Bill was wrecked. For instance, the prin­ci[Jal objection taken in anuther place to the Bill of 1895 was to the local option clauses and the impracticttbility of the machinery of the Bill. The second objection was to the powers of inspectors, and the third was to allowing small shopkeepers, who ran their business with the aid of their families, to remain open, whilst shopkeepers in the same trade who employed one or two assistants were compelled to close. In this Bill I have tried as far as possible to make the various clauses and interpretations fit in with those in the Factories Act which we passed last se"sion. I have made a few alterations in the definiti011 of a shop and in the means of bringing the ~\.et into operation. Still the Bill is somewhat similar to that introduced by the Acting Premier in 1895. I have provided that families shall come under the operation·, of the Act. And for this reason: I have taken par­ticular care to get a fairly accurate return made of the shops in and around Brisbane which now remain open after 6 o'clock on week nights. In Brisbane, including South Brisbane, :Forti­tude Valley, Toov, ong, Spring Hill, and out to Indooroopilly, Paddington, Petrie terr:tce, and the Albion, there a.rp, a little over 500 "hops open every evening of the week. Of that number there are 180 fruit and vegetable shops, 30 chemists, about 40 confectioners and eating­houses, about 50 tobacconists, and 25 news­agents. In all there are 325 shops-principally carried on by small people with the aid of their families-who will not come under the provisions of the Bill. The principle th:tt I have gone on is this-and it should meet with the approval of the Traders' Association-that if any trade comes

Shops Early Closing Bill. [8 JULY.] Shops .Early Closing Bill, 245

under the Act, that trade shall be closed right through. If grocers, drapers, ironmongers, or others come under the Act, then all grocers, drapers, and ironmongers shall close, whet!. er the shops are conducted by paid assistants or by the proprietor and his family. Of the 500 shops that I have mentioned, 325 come under the schedule. There are 175 who will come under the Bill, and of that number about eighty employ labour, leaving a balance of about lOO who do not employ labour outside of their own families, and of these about twenty-five are kept by Syrians and Chinese. In addition there are 175 shops open upon Saturday nights, and about 95 per cent. of them employ labour, so that there is a total of about 6711 shops. I think that those who may be induced to oppose this Bill because it may press rather hardly upon some small pePple will see that the majority of shops that are run by small people about Brisbane are fruit shops, restaurants, and such-like, which will not come under the provisions of the Bill. Since this Bill was introduced I have made it a point to vi•it numbers of these people in different districts, and I was very pleasantly surprised to find that they would be very glad indeed to corr:e under its provisions. They stand in exactly the same position as the shopkeeper who employs assist­ants, and say, "\Ve cannot close because our neighbours refuse to do so, and consequently we are obliged to keep open in self-defence." In the schedule there are two classes w],ich I have included in this Bill, although they were exempt under the Bill of 1895. The first are the butchers, whose houro are very long. They begin work in the morning between 4'30 and 5"30 o'clock, and they work until 6 in the evening, except on Saturdays, when the shops are kept open till from 10'30 to 12 o'clock. It was pomted out to the Acting Premier by the deputation which waited upon him some time ago, and by a master butcher who had had twenty-five years' experience here, that there was no possible difficulty in the way of butchers closing at 9 o'clock on Saturday nights. People can as easily pnrchasp meat before that hour as they can purchase shoes o1· hats, and I trust that when this Bill gets into committee, as I hope it will, this provision will be allowed to remain in it. The other class dealt with in this Bill is one which de,erves a great deal of sympathy and support in this House. I refer to the labour employed in hotel bars. In lSgl evidence was given before the commission that this class of bbour worked continuously f>ix days of the w«ek an average of from sixteen to eighteen hours a day, and that a large number of these persons worked also on Sundays. I am not going to enter into the question of Sunday closing, nor will I take up the moral aspect of the case; but my sole desire is to relieve this class frorn the long hours they are at present obliged to labour. I am informed that at least 90 per cent. of the barmen and barmaid.; have to work on Sundays nearly the same hours that they work on week­days. Although I know that I may be creating great opposition by a powerful combination in Brisbane, still I am determined, whether I am in this House for a long or a short time, not to sacrifice the principle I have held, and advocated all through. I am determined that while I am here I shall raise my voice and try to get justi<:e for this class of labour, which at present is working slavish hours. The prin­ciple of the Bill is embodied pretty well in clauses 6 to 10. It is provided that all shops excevt those included in the schedule shall be closed every evening of the week at 6 o'clock, but the option is allowed to shopkeepers who may be inclined to keep open on Saturday nights till 9 o'clock to do so, provided they give their assistants a half-holiday in the week. Provision

is made that a vote of the shopkeepers shall be taken as to the day on which the half-holiday shall be kept, but shopkeepers who close at 6 o'clock on Saturdays, and p'l.rticularly those who close at 1 o'clock, are not in any way affected by the Bill, so far as that is con­cerned. Clause 6 makes it very plain that all shovs shall be closed at 6 o'clock on Saturday evenings, so that any shop closing at that hour has,nothing to do with the h~tlf-holiday. I should like the Bill to be morP drastic, but I am anxious to get some reform in this direction, and there­fore do not think it would be wise to make the Bill so drastic that hon. members may not be inclined to support it. I have drafted it so that it will fit in with the sh')pkeeping trades of the colony, and I belif've that from the ex­perience of the past, and from the feeling that exists outside, the shopkeeping fraternity not only in Briabane but in several other large towns will welcome snch a Bill as this. Of course I am prepared for a certain amount of opposition, but I hope that no factious opposition will be offered merely because the Bill has emanated from this Ride of the House. I am prepared to offer all the information that is possible, and to reply to any arguments that may be adduced in opposition to the Bill, but I hope that hon. mem­bers on both sides will deal with the matter from a humane point of view; that it will be ap­proached not in a.ny way as a party measure, and also that hou. members will try to improve it and make it a better Bill. There are a certain nnmber of shops mentioned in the schedule that I should like to see included, but I have fonnd a difficulty in doing so, because they are in the schedule to the Factories Act., A large nnmber of them are also included in the schedules to Acts passed in the other colonies, but it must be admitteri that, so br as tobacconists and fruit shops are concerned, possibly the principal part of their business is done when other people have the leisure to patronise them. In committee I should like to have a clause inserted giving the Governor in Council power to deal with the hours of assistants in these exempted shops.

Mr. CRoss: ·would that apply to wholesale as well as retail housPs?

Mr. McDO::ii'NELL: I think the word "shop" should eml>race both wholesale and retail houses. The interpretation clause is exactly the same aK th~tt of the Factories Act passed last year. There is an addition to the definition of "shop" ma\ring it wide enough to include" stall,"" tent," or "vehicle." Those are included becanse if all the shops worked by families or small traders were closed, it is very probable that cheap jacks or others would run a stall or tent in Brisbane and its suburbs, and do a thriving trade on Saturday and other nights when the legitimate trader was closed np. My object in this Bill is first to try and secure relief for shop asi'istants, and my other object is to try and do everything that is possible to protect the interests of employers. I believe I have done so, and I have much pleasure in commending the Bill to the House. I beg to move that it be now read a second time.

The ACTING PREMIER: I think the House will expect some assistance from me on this occasion. The principle of early closing will find no warmer supporter than myself in this House; but the question we have got to determine in bringing forward legislation is whether it will effect the object which the intro­ducer and this House have in view. Will this Bill do what the hon. member wants? He must see that the Government not having brought iu this Bill, though they may have thoroughly at heart the principle of early closing, may have come to the conclusion that it will

246 Shops Early Olosin,q Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Shops Early Olosi.nq Bill.

do more harm to early closing to introduce it now, or in this manner, than to leave it alone. Legislation ought to be a reflex of public opinion, and there is a difficulty in bringing in mea"ures at an inuppor\une time. :My ol)ject in ri,ing is to illustrate where this :Bill diners from the measure which was hrought in by me two years ngo. It will also be fair to the House to give re,lR ms why the Government have not introduced this Bill themselves.

Mr. GLASSEY: Do you know the re.tl reaso'n? The AC UNG PREMIER: I will give the

true reason. In 1895 nobody could hwe worked hardter than I did in order to get the Bill not only through this House but through both Hnuses so that it might become law. I failed in getting it through the other Oh tmber. Does the hon. member think for one moment that he is likely to have a better }Jrospect of getting the Bill through that Chamber than I had in that year?

Mr. McDoNNELL: I have removed &heir principal objections in this Bill.

The ACTING FHEMIER: The hon. gentle­man has mentioned "h:tt he considen the obotacles -the rocks or pitfalls in the previons Bill--and be ha,; left the loc"l option clauses out of this Bill. I consider the local option clau8es one of the s·tfeguardK of the Bill. I do not agree with him that they Wflre an obstacle to the Bill.

Mr. J:VlcDONNELL : You said t~ey were your­self.

The .... A .... CTING PRE::\1IEit; The Upper House did not believe in the Bill at all. They did not think that the time had come for lm Early Closing Bill. \Vhen this Bill omits all questiom of local option, I cannot for a moment think that the hon. gentleman is sympathetic with the omission. \V bat is local option? Leaving to the people the determination of matters affecting their own interests. Instead of leaving it to the people, the hon. gentleman provides that the person who shall call it into operation is the Minister.

Mr. McDm!NELL: Yes ; the ~ame as the ]factories Act.

The ACTING PREMIER: Yes; but what about the gentleman who has gone about the country speaking of the administration of the Factories Act by me a> shameful? Has he not allude':l to the supineness, the gross :md shameful neglect of the Minister administering that Act?

Mr. McDoNNELL: I h:we undoubtedly. The ACTING PREMIER : Has he not gone

about stating that the Act was brought in under pressure from the Lauour party, and that the Minister's heart was not in it?

Mr. McDONNELL: I did not say that. The ACTING PREMIER: Did be not say

that it wa" bronght in under pressure from the other side?

Mr. McDoN!'IELL : Ye;;. 'rhe ACTING PREMIER: Yet in this :Bill,

which previously contained provi&ions leaving the qt1estion of its operation to the people themselves to decide, he is prepared to place a provision vesting the ab30lute power to call it into opera­tion in this shameful Minister.

Mr. McDoNNELL : ·what I have said has since had a good effect.

The ACTING PREMIER: The hon. mem­ber must surely imagine that before this Dill comes into operation some other :Minister will be here to administer it, who will give it more kindly administration than he can expect from me, otherwise he would not have attempted to give to the Home Secretary such autocratic powa as is given in this Bill. It c1>nnot be brought in tu operation except he raises his finger. He is given the power to say it shall be in opera­tion here and it shall not be in O}Jeration there. The hon. member turns round and says that the

local option clauses, which were put in by me to trust the people, are objectionable clauses, and formed the pitfall over which the other Chamber threw the Bill out.

Mr. McDONNELI. : Y on said their objection would l:e avoided if the local option clauses of the Bill were gone. You said that on 3rd November, 189G. I h<tve it here.

The ACTING PREMIER: I do not know where the hon. gentleman gets it. Very likely I told him to a void the local option clauses, because there were objections made to them by men of a protr;inent character in this House. I have endeavoured in all my advice to the hon. member to induc~ him to avoid anything that would give offence, with a view of getting early closing. I tell him now that he should never use the spur on a willing horse. He stands in the position I was in some time ago. I brought in twin-si"ter Bills, and did the best I could to get them both through, and I succeeded in getting one through. \Vhat was the result of it? The hon. gentleman, who seems to have a special mission in this direction, goes about all over the country stating that though this was done the Minister deserves no credit, a& t.he matter was forced upon him. Now the Minister will hcc!1p coals of fire on the hon. member's head by stating that no matter where the legislation comes from, if it is oppor­tune and contains a good principle, it will receive my support. I shall now put before the House what r""'ons I think may operate against giving the hon. member what he wantg, It will be agreed that early closing is beneficial to those persons who have to work in shops. Then how are we to attain that object? The hon. member thinks he ean attain it by bringing in a Bill this year. When I brought forward the Bill in 1895 I saw the difficulties that must necessarily arise, and I cast about, after the Early Closing Bill was thrown out, to see if I could not get some legislation which would educate the people up to the necessity of something being done in the direction now indicated. With that object I introduced the Factories Bill. Although that measure did not go the full length to which the hon. member wanted it to go, yet so far it has provided the machinery which will enable the public to see and become accustomed to the idea of early-closing legislation. It has provided the basio for early closing-namely, the assertion of the right of Parliament to protect young persons employed in shops whose health may be prejudicially affected by long hours. It provides that all women and children shall only work a certain number of hours per week, and if they are compelled to work a few hours' overtime during the evening they get a spell during the day. \'I e are waiting now to gee the effect of tha~ Act in the direction of shortening the hours of labour in the interest and health of all those persons, and especially women and children, who claim our protection. That Act only came into force on the ht of January last. Of course it must be administered with very great care. There is no use in the Minister trying to go ahead of public opinion or sentiment, otherwise there will be a reaction against the principle. On the other band, if the Act is administered wisPly for the benefit of all persons concerned, there is likely to be a sympathetic wave of public opinion in its favour. In the administration ofthe]'actoriesAct we are far in advance of the other colonies in the assistance which the public have given, and even to-day I was enabled to get two more officers to assist in the administration of the Act. In fact, it ic operating in the direction of giving the hon. gentleman exactly what he wants by this Bill. It has resulted in the shortening of honrs and operating to bring about what ought to have come about voluntarily-the early closing

Skops Early Closing Bill. [8 JtrLY.] Skops Early Closing Bill. 247

of shops. They have done that before in other towns. I need hardly say that this Bill would be unnecessary in the town in which I lived for so many years, because it has operated there by voluntary compact; and it was becau;,e voluntary compact could not be broughtaboutin Brisbane and Rockhampton that I introduced the Bill o£1895. I look for my information to the impector who goes round under the :Factories Act. He notifies me week by week what is taking place in the various districts, and from the information which I have gathered I come to the conclusion that it would be perilous to introduce e>rly-closing legislation this year. I find there has been a sympathetic response on the part of the traders of Brisbane, who have joked with the sh0p assistants to assist the Government ; in fact, they joined with the Government in carrying the Factories Bill. Seeing the Government are in earnest they have uow formed themselves into an association, whose members now number 300, and their iden, is to carry :Jut by voluntary compact, and not by law, such proposals as the Government have in their mind. The effect is that 300 out of 600 shopkeepers do now close their shops before 6 o'clock.

Mr. McDONNELL : There has not been one single concession made since you introduced the Bill in 1895.

'rhe ACTING PRE".}HER: If what the hon. gentleman says is a fact it only emphasises my argument, but I am informed that of all the persons keeping Hhops in and around Brisbane one-half close at (j o'clock.

Mr. l!'INNEY : That is not correct. The ACTING PREMUJR: Perhaps the hon.

gentleman has better means of knowing than I have. I can only supply the information which I get from those officers whose duty it is to get it. Of the remainder, at least 200 represent shops which the hon. gentleman has excluded from the operation of this Bill and we thus have the number which would be affected by the opera· tion of this Bill narrowed down to about sixty­seven. And thooe sixty-seven are affected in their employment of women and children by the opera­tion of the Factories Act. As the hon. member knows, a deputation asked me to bring· inn, Bill, and I told them that I would not do it this year, one reason being that we already have an Act which give' me the neces,;,~ry machinery to inquire into the wisdom of this proposal and gives the traders the opportunity of arriving at the same thing by voluntary action. Here is a letter I got from the Brisbane Traders' Associa­tion, in which they ask me to oppose the measure for the early closing of shops introduced by the junior member for Fortitude V alley on the follow­ing grounds. [The hon. member read the letter, in which it was stated that legislation on a subject of so much importance to trade and business should only be introduced by the Government, that the effect of the measure passed last session would very materially improve the condition of the workers in shops, and that it was desirable to postpone further le~islation on the subject until it was found desirable to go beyond the provisions of that Act.] Of course it is my duty to place all the knowledge I have before this House so that hon. members may be able to n,rri ve at the best conclusion. The hon. gentleman will get my vote on the second reading ; then he must be prepared to deal with the objections that will be raised, not only in committee but elsewhere, as to some of his provi,-ions. I regret that the hon. gentleman has considered it necessary to leave out the local option clauses. It may be wise for him io do that in order to get his Bill passed, but I think the local ovtion clauses formed a splendid safeguard. Certainly it is a hard thing that Parliament should fail to take the responsi­bility upon itself; and that it should turn round

and say to the Home Secretary, "We give you absolute power to say where in this colony you are going to put into operation this early closing law." There is quite enough responsibility vested in the Minister at all times, and it is going too far to clothe him with this autocratic power. And really I think thn,t when the Minister asks the ad vice and assistance of those engaged in the trade in the wn,y of bringing up a report he is not asking a bit too much. In this Bill the hon. mAmber has no doubt enlarged on the ideas of the Bill I brought in. I could not see my way to bring in an application of the .idea of early closing in connection with wholesale houses, and I think the hon. gentleman, n,s a principle, would be wise to make that elear, otherwise he will fail there. I do not think any charge can be made against the wholesale houses in reg-ard to women and children ; and in regard to the others I never had much sympathy with a man over twenty-one years of age working in a whole. sale shop and not able to look after himself. Those persons are well able, both in regard to wages and hours, to combine to look after themselves. My sympathy has gune mostly, in all this legis. lation, to those who require to be looked after­the women and children. This Bill differs from my Bill in extending its opemtion over a large area of wholesale shops, and there are difficulties in that. Queensland has a large c<Jastline and orders are sent d,,wn from the North to Brisbane from time to time. It will be hard to keep that trade in Brisbane if those shops are forced to shut at 6 o'clock, because the result will be that those orders from the North will necessarily go to the southern ports where there is no such law. Even if the hon. member were able to convince this House that the small shops-what are called one-man shops--should come under this Bill, I do not think he will ever be able to convince the country. I believe that the House will never consent to give the Home Secretary power to say that when a man goes home from his work his wife, who has been staying in all day, shall be debarred from going out to one of those small shops and getting the necessaries of life. If a me,n keeps a shop in any locality about the city, and he does a larger trade than is considered fair for a one-man shop, the Bris­bane Traders' Association can pdint out to him that the effect of his keeping open after 6 o'clock will be that everybody around him will do the scune thing; and I am informed that in over 80 per cent. of such cases they have been successful in inducing the owners of those shops to close at 6 o'clock. ·when persons keep open after 6 o'clock, the Tmders' Association endeavour to reason with them, and show what must be the effect of their action.

Mr. McDoNNELL: They do nothing of tbe sort.

The ACTING PREMIER : I cannot under­stand how the hon. member can dispute facts which have been supplied to the Government by the Brisbane Traders' As,ociation, representing, I presumP, some 300 traders. It is not likely that they would have supplied the information unless it was accurate.

Mr. McDoNNELL : Possibly you are confusing the Early Closing Association with the Traders' Aesociation.

The ACTING PREMIER: No. The infor­mation was supplied to me by Mr. Dempsey, the secretary of the Brisbane Traders' Association. I am a student of history in this matter, and I know that in the democratic country of New Zealand for three solid years the proposal made by the hon. member in this connection was the stumbling-block to the passage of their rnea"ure through the Upper House. And I am sure that in this colony it will be a very difficult thing to get a conservative body of men to agreA that it i&

248 Sltop.s Early Closing Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Skops Early Closing Bill.

a proper thing to take away from the owner" of these small shops probably the only means they have of paying their rent. I am told that the traders in Brisbane do not object in the slightest degree to these one-man shOJ!S keeping open after 6 o'clock, as it does not affect their busines9.

Mr. McDoNNELL: ~Why, that was the great objection urged by the traders to your Bill in 18!15.

The ACTING PREMIER: Well, they tell me now that they have gone round and found that the husinecs done by the small oue-m<'n, or family, shops does not intel'fere with those who close at 6 o'clock-namely, those who have a lot of persons in their employ. However, hem. nwm­bers can better judge of that than I can. All I say is that my vote will not go in the direction of closingtbc-.'e small ,hops, knowing as I do the con­ditions under which a large number of persons in and around the large towns of the colony are struggling to make a livelihood. In saying that, I am sticking to the principle of my original Bill. The HouBe affirmed that principle, and if t.he hon. member is going to try to induce the House now to dif<J,ffirrn it be will have to give very strong reasons for such a course of action. I canm•t 8.gree with tbe inclubion of butchers in this B1ll. I have listened to both sides, and I do not think they should come under the operation of the Bill. They come under the Factories Act so far as the young people employed by them are con­cerned, but tbe master butcher.s, who came to me in a deputation, assure me that this measure would be unwork>tble a" regards their hu,infss. When I got the House to pass a similar Hill two years ago they did not think it wise to include butchers in it.

Mr. HARDACRE : Because you said you would include them in the regnlati<ms.

The ACTIXG PREMIER: No, the bon. member IS confusing that Bill with the :Factories Act. I have included them in the regulations under the l<'actories Act, and before the House agrees to the hon. member's proposal, it would be wise for hon. mernbertl to carefully consider whether public health and convenience would be conserved uy including butchers in this Bill. However, tbe hon. member has made an effort and I have given the Hou"e the full benefit of my knowledge on the subject. If he had taken my advice he would have postponed thi,; until be had been fortified by the opinion of the officers working under the J!"actories Act as to whether or not that Act, working directlv by its clause,; and indirectly by its principles, ·had not worked out for him tbe salvation he requires. Of course I fully sympathise with him, and should be very sorry that his philanthropic efforts should be marred in any way by adverse criticism. In my observations I have only one object in view, and that is to sift the matter thoroughly. I think he is premature in his effort, and I very much fear that what will defeat him will be the fact that many persons will say that the Act ?f la~t year has not been sufficiently long on 1ts trml. I am prepared to go this length : to allow the second reading of the Bill to p~1ss reserving to myself the right in committee t~ deal wi&h those minor matters as they come on. I do not suppose the Bill will go to a divi~ion; I hope the second reading will he carried on tbe vo1ces. When it gets into committee I will assist the hon. member, but I prophesy for him that, however wise the idea of the general principle io, he has brought in tbe Bill 11t an inopportune moment, inopportune in time, .a.nd more h:opportune in respect of any possibility of gettmg a better fate for it than defeat in another place.

Mr. CRIBB: I have very much pleasure in supporting this Bill. I supported the Bill for the same purpose, referred to by the Acting

Premier, in a former session in another place, and my only regret is that the bon. gentleman's efforts did not meet with the success he had a right to expect. I trust that be may be more fortunate on the present occasion. Of course it is too late now, but I should like to have seen incorporated in tbe :Factories Act, or even in a Bill introduced for tbe special purpose, a pro­vision that the wages of working men shall be paid on some other day than the last day of tbe week. Tbe great difficulty there is in the way of early closing on Saturdays is that wages a_re paid on Saturday afterno.m or Saturday evemng. I quite agreA that persons engaged in shops should have an opportunity given them of enjoying sun­light and fre;h air, and there can be no difficulty in giving them that OfJportunity in a reasonable manner. There is no doubt. that indoor work, when too long-continued, is inimical totbe human constitution, and I am sure every man who is actuated by humane principles will do all in bis power to enahle them to get into the open air so a' to enable them to m~intain their health and vi;rour. I should like to see not only a half-day in thP week given, but all shops to close at 6 o'clock on Saturdays; but I am afraid that will be impos­sible until the system of 1•aying wages, to which I have referred, is altered. I am not inclined to agree with the Acting Premier as to the local option clauses in the previous Bill. If instead of local option tbe administration of the measure had bten left in the hands of the Minister, its working would stand a much better chance of success. The hon. gentleman has expressed his determination to oppose the compulsory early clooing of what he terms one-man shops. I do not agree with him there. A man may have a small shop in a suburb without a wife or a family to ass1st him in tbe business. At the same time he may have alargefamilydependentto some extent upon the success of that business, and in order to make it a sufficient success to maintain bis hmily he will have to emplo~· labour. 'l'hat man is com­pelled to close his shop at a certain hour, whereas the man with a wife or children able to assist him will be allowed to keep open all hours. Such competition would be manifestly unfair to the person who has to employ labour. The hon. gentleman has expressed his sympathy with the general principle; but I think he has expressed false sympathy with regard to the application of the principle to one-lllan shops. It must be ovident to all that a man who is endeavouring to earn a subsiotence for his family, and is dRbar red from the assistance of his family in his business, is placed at a disadvantage in having to employ labour. I feel sure that if the hem. gentleman were familiar with the condition of homes where long hours of labour are allowed he would not favour long hours. Why should a man be allowed to work his familv longer hours than he is allowed to work anyone else? I cannot see that the objection of tbe Acting Premier can reasonably apply to butchers. I do not know what is the rule in Brisbane, but in the town which I have tbe honour to represent the butchers have agreed to close at 6 o'clock every evening during the week. I am not quite sure what time they close on Saturday, but there is no reason whatever why they should not close at tbe same hour on Saturday, if they are all agreed. It is not fair tbat those who have to rise very early in the morning in order to prepare the meat for sale and delivery should have to remain in the shops all the day. It could easily be arranged that they should get off in the afternoon, because, although butchers' hours are long, the hours of sale are not so long. I am very glad to see public-houses included in the Bill. ~Why should bakers and butchers be compelled to close on Sunday, while public-houses are allowed to remain open? If

Skops Early Olosing Bill.

the so-called traveller is to be considered, it is more important that the butcher and the baker should be allowed to remain open than that the public-houses should keep open. At all events, no injustice would be done to the travelling public if the bars of public-houses had to be closed on Sunday.

The ACTING PREMIER : And at 6 o'clock at night too?

Mr. CRIBB: Yes, and I would even make them close at 6 on Saturday. I do not wish to make a long speech, because the time at the dis­posal of private members is limited, and I am anxious that the Bill should pass after a fair discussion. If the Acting Premier proposes any amendments in committee which I consider reasonable, I shall be happy to support them.

Mr. DIBLEY: I should not have spoken but for the remarks of the Acting Premier with regard to butchers' shops. There is no difficulty whatever about closing butchers' shops at 9 o'clock on Saturday night, and there should be no difficulty in closing them at 6 o'clock. I keep a butcher's shop, and I close at 8 o'clock on Saturday night. If a customer will not take meat tilllO o'clock on Satmday night I let him go. At the same time I do not believe the voluntary system will do. I believe we want to educate the public as well as the shopkeepers, as there is just as much of thetroubleduetothepublic shopping late as to shopkeepers desiring to keep open late. NotUng but compulsion will work. Of course the butchering business is a diflicult one to manage, but it can be done. There is no use anyone saying that meat will not be whole­some, because it is the very same meat, whether people get it at 6 o'clock or at 12 o'clock on Saturday night. A butcher does not keep a bullock in the shop and kill it just as people want the meat. He gets a reasonable amount for the Sunday trade, and it is the same meat that is sold at 6 o'clock as the meat that is sold at 12 o'clock-there is only one killing on the Saturday. I intend to support the second read­ing of the Bill.

Mr. Me MASTER: I have no d0sire to talk this Bill out. I am going to support the second reading, but do not promise to support all the clauses in committee. I do not think there is any necessity for long speeches, as the principle of early closing has been so thoroughly thrashed out in this House for years p""st. We have heard the quotations read by my colleague in this House before, and I have heard nothing new this afternoon. I am sure the hon. member is not going to get his Bill through in its present form. I agree with the hon. member for Woolloongabba that there is a necessity to educate the people as well as the shopkeepers, who are not the greatest sinners. People will insist on shopping late ; shopkeepers have to keep their places open; and the diffi­culty is not to be got over so easily. I also agree with the hon. member for W ooiloongabba with regard to the butchers. They are the hardest worked class of men I know. I can bear testimony to the hon. member's r0marks about the Sunday meat. No meat has come into my house on a Sunday for the last thirty years, yetJ we always have meat on Sunday, and I do not think that it happens more than two or three times during the summer that a joint is put on the table which is not fit for consumption. I think that can be easily got over, but I am afraid there are greater difficulties in the way than the butchers, and they are caused by the very men who make the most noise in favour of early closing. I will give the hon. member one case in point. I had a young man in my employ for eight or nine years, and for some two years he was chairman of the Early Closing Associa­tion.

Local Autlw'rities Bill. 249

Mr. McDONNELL: Not within the last ten years.

Mr. McMASTER: Yes, within five years. He left when that association afliliated with the labour unions. I gave him all the encourage­ment I could to get the early closing carried out, because I like to get home early, and I like my men to get home early also. 'fbat young man worked very hard in the cause of early closing, but not bring an agitator he withdrew as I have stated. Some six months ago he left my employ, and with another, who was also an energetic early closing man, they have set up in busineos for themselves, and they keep their shop open till 10 or half-past 10 o'clock every night, not only on Saturdays. That has not induced me to alter my hour of closing ; but w!u,t I would like to impress upon my colleague is thi~: He pictured to this House the pale faces of the young men and young women who are kept behind counters, and thought they should be taken care of by the State; but what can he say to this?

Mr. McDoNNELL: I want to prevent that in this Bill.

Mr. McMASTER : If he can get that into the Bill it will be a good thing for him and for the community, but there is another clause I would like to see introduced into the Bill, and he has never yet made an attempt to do so. \'lhy not introduce into this Bill a similar clause to that contained in the Licensing Act? That Act provides that if a man is found in the public­house during prohibited hours, not only is the publican punished, but the man who is supplied with drink is also punished. Why should we not impose a penalty upon a man found dealing in a shop as well as upon the man whose shop is kept open? I do not say that such a provision should be put in, and if the hon. member attempted to inseriJ it he would not find so many supporters outside. If he intends to make this a useful Bill he will have to make many alterations when it gets into committee. At all events I am a believer in early closing, aud I think that until we have legislation on the subject we shall never have unanimity amongst the tradespeople, for the simple reason that as soon as a man improves his position and opens a store of his own he will keep open and carry on trade, and the very men who agitate most strongly in favour of early closing are the first men who will break the law when they go on their own account.

Question put and passed ; and the committal of the Bill'made an Order of the Day for Thurs­day, 19th August.

At 7 o'clock, the House, in accordance ~vith Sessional Order, proceeded u·ith Gove1·nment busi­ness.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL. SECOND READING.

The ACTING PREMIER: I think the dis­cussion in the House on this Bill need not neces­sarily be long, but the discussion in committee will of course be so. On a Bill dealing with a matter of so much importance as local government, it will no donbt be wise for all members to assist in every way, because it is not a party Bill; local government is not a party matter. I shall look forward, therefore, with the greatest plea­sure to the help I shall get from all parts of the House in the endeavour to frame this measure. The introduction of this Bill is brought about because so many years have elapsed since the passage of the Local Government Act and the Divisional Boards Act, and so many Acts have been passed dealing with the subject, that it was at last forced npon the Government and the com­munity to take action to produce some consoli­dated work, and at the same time to amend the

250 Local Authorities Bill, [ASSEMBLY.] Local Authorities Bill.

law. When I tell you that this Bill deals, mostly by way of repeal, with forty-seven exist­ing statutes, you will see how much the work of consolidation hae become necessary. It is very difficult for the community to understand the work of local government when they have to turn up forty-seven statutes to find out what laws affect them. The duty devolving upon the Government in the matter they carried out to some extent by referring the matter to a Roval Commission a little over twelve months ag<;, and I must say their work will be found most valuable to the House. Whether hon. members will agree with all the conclusions arrived at by the commission or not is altogether immaterial. There is no doubt that the mem· bers were di-.interested men, and they put into their work an amount of ability and energy which I, as the Minister in charge of the depart­ment, thank them for. I take this opportunity­the first I have had of dealing with this report­to say that it reflects great credit upon every individual concerned in the composition of it. Not only did the commission bring up a report, but they consolidated their work in the form of a Bill; and I may say that in compliment to them wherever there was a question of language and not of principle involved, though I might at times have preferred som~ other language, I have endeltvoured tokeeptotheir words, and this Bill is very nearly the Bill brought up by the com· mission. I was very glad to give them the benefit of a long administr .. tion of the depart­ment. A man who has been in the office of Home Secretary for seven years must in that time have gauged the wishes of thE' local authori­ties as expressed by their repeat.ed communica­tions. So hr as I was able to give effect to those wishes I did so in thfl first instance by com­municating everything I knew to the commission. I was not desirous in any way of letting the commission do their work and reserving my criticisms until after they had finished. I pre­ferred that they should have the full benefit of any experience I had, and probably some of the suggestions I made to them and some of the information I supplied may have influenced them to some extent in bringing up their report in the form in which they did bring it up.

Mr. LEAHY: It did, '~nd very largely, too. The ACTING PRE:'IHER: So far as their

work goes it is the joint work of capable men, and based on the experience of local authorities. \V e are here now to try and perfect that work and make it suitable to the needs of· this great colony. I may say I am very proud indeed of the work of local government in this colony, and I have stated that in every place. Take the sis~er colony of New South W aleo and look at their Estimates and you wlll find how much moupy is spent, and a great deal of it wasted, on roa ls and bridges. Tlw usual logrolling goes on, and money is wasted. In this colony, under the system established some yPars ago, the people have wisely spent the money-in some instances not so wisely as might perhaps have be~n wished ; but as a general rule the people of Queensland can be complimented upon the operation of local government. The object of hon. gentlemen, I hope, will be what my object is in this Bill-to increase their powP.r. I may say at the outset that I came to the con­clusion that it was wise not to combine the machinery clauses with tbe financial clauses, which may alter as the circumstances of each year alter. It will be the enrleavour of the Treasurer to so arrange that the finances of the local authorities may be iixed as reliable; but it has been deemed wise not to include the financial clauses with the machinery clauses, and they have been omitted from this Bill. There will, I hope, be a sister Bill introduced

before the end of the session dealing with the subject of subsidies, the way they are dealt with at the present time being by votes on the Esti­mates.

Mr. DAWSON: Will the sister be as long as this?

The ACTING PREMIER: No, it will only be a small sheet. This B1ll, as I say, deals with the Divisional Boards Act, which consists of 300 clauses, the Municipalities Act, and many others, and it was therefore difficult to make it a smaller measure. It could have been made smaller if we had omitted four or five Acts, but when you come to see the immense number of subjects which had to be dealt with you will see that it was absolutely necessary for the draftsman to introduce a large number of clauses. I do not intend that this Bill shall take precedence of all other Bills, but that it will run side by side with the Land Bill and any other Bill which may come before the Chamber. I do not think it would be a wise thing to go on from day to day with the Bill, because there are many subjects upon which hon. members will require a little time to deliberate, and I hope our deliberations will result in the enunciation of the very best ideas. If we hurry with the measure it might be dis­astrous to local government, but by bringing it on at an early period of the session it is hoped that we may fin~<lly send such· a Bill to the other Chamber as we shall not be ashamed of, and which will embody the united wisdom and ex· perience of this House. We cannot hope to pass a Bill which will please everybody. No doubt a great many of the amendments which will be inserted will not please me, bnt the majority will, I am sure, bring forth a Bill which will be ''atis­factory, and, I hope, in the interests of the colony as a whole.

Mr. DAWSON: The local authorities are now deliberating upon this Bill.

The ACTING PREMIER: They have been deliberating upon Local Government Bills for the last three or four years. In 1894 a Bill very largely framed on these lines was sent to them for deliberation. Before this Bill gets through I shall have ample opportunity of getting the full result of their deliberations ; and if at the end we find that anything has been omitted, we can recommit the measure and give it further consideration.

Mr. KEOGH: All the local authorities should have a copy of the Bill.

The ACTING PREMIER : Every single local authority was furnished with a copy of a Bill nearly similar to this. Not only that, but they have had copies of the evidence taken by the commission, and I can assure bon. members that any alterations which have been made in the Bill since the commission sat have been materially assisted by the deliberations of the local authorities and their wise suggestions. I have gone very carefully into the criticisms of the work of the commission, and when the time comes I shall give to hon. members the grounds upon which any alterations the Government propose to make in· the recommendations of the commission have been made. For the convenience of hon. members, I have given on page 1, opposite the divisions of the Bill, the numbers of the sections to which the particular divisions refer. The Bill is divided into twenty-five parts. At present we are working under two distinct constitutions. At one time the Municipalities Act was Adminis­tered by the Home Secretary and the Divi­sional Boards Act by the Secretary for Public W arks ; but in time it was found that it was possible to amalgamate the work under the two Acts, and to put them unde~ one Minister. I happened to occupy both those offices at that time,

Local Authorities Bill. [8 JuLY.] Local Authorities Bill. 251

and when I ceased to be Secretary for Public Works the work of theDi visional Boards was transferred to the Home Secretary. Whatever knowledge therefore I have acquired of the working of the two Acts will be gladly placed at the dioposal of hon. members, not only with regard to verbal infor­mation, but with regard to any written informa­tion which I have been able from time to time to acquire. In that way you will have the collective experience of a number of years ; not only my experience, but the experience of the local authorities who have held repeated conferences. Hon. members will find most of the recommenda­tions of the local authorities embraced in this Bill, and if there have been any conferences held since the commis•ion sat, or if there are any which are held hereafter, I should be glad to supply them with printed copies of the suggeil· tions. Many of the suggestions which have come from local authorities may be extremely valuable in their way, but, having nothing to do with the Bill, they have not been em­bodied in it. In the schedule at the end of the Bill you will find all th<> Acts named which it is intended to repeal. The first part of the Bill preserves all existing right•, and in no way repudiates any obligation, bond, compact or anything done under the existing law. In connection with clause 7 it will be necessary to look very closely at the definitions, and, for the purposes of illustration, I will draw attention to the definition of "ratepayer"-" any person who is named in the rate-book of an arBa as an occupier or owner of rateable land." The definition of that word has in the past caused more litigation and complication than any· thing I know of. Therefore I draw atten­tion to it to ~how the wisdom and necessit;Y of carefully examining the various defim­tions, some of which are old and some new. It is endeavoured to cast on the local government the duty of dealing with pests; and we shall have to see whether the definition is too wide or whether it is a duty which should be cast on the owners of land, because local government simply means that you put on the owners the obbgation-the pecuniary obligation in many instances-of carrying out these dutier'. Of course it always rests with Parliament to deal with the question of subsidy. I come now to Part II., dealing with the constitution of are"'s and the Central Board of Health. Difficulties have arisen in regard to those powers. There must be some central governing authority for all those local authorities, though I have never found the slightest friction between tlw central Government and any local authority during my administration. Of course when a case of sever· ance arises the Minister acts as arbiter, but there has been no rebellion in consequence of the Minister's act. And I do not think it can be shown that there has been any undue interference by the Executive authority with the true principle of local government. I can hardly think that any Minister would attempt to inter· fere with the true principle of aliowing local bodies to look after their own affairs ; he would only advise, suggest, or control when it became necessary in the public interest. There have been instanceB in which members of boards have been extravagant with the funds of others. I have here given the Minister more extensive powers of dealing with fraud or extravagance when bronght under his notice than has been given in the past. I also abolish some of the names by which certain areas have been known, because it is deemed advisable in future that there shall be two classes, and the commission recom­mended the use of the names "town" and" shire." Of course we are not bound to those words, but I think they correctly describe the true condition of affairs. Sometimes it happens that complications

will arise. For instance, you make up your mind to transfer portion of one area to another local authority, and hitherto there has been no provision for also transferring the liability. The present law was passed ten years ago, and it will probably be found ten years hence that more amendments are required than we propose to make now. ·when we get to the 15th clause we have to consider the wisdom of incorporating in this as part of our local government system the duty of taking care of the public health. That is now under the Cennral Board of Health, and the local authorities do not think it is any part of their duty.

Mr. DAWSON: They do it. The ACTING PitEMIER: They do in some

places. In this amalgamation or eonsolidation the duty is charged on the local authorities.

Mr. McCoRn : Do you include the debts as well in the shire when a town becomes a shire?

The ACTING PREMIER: There are ample provisions dealing with abolition. There will be nothing abolished, except a town wants to become a shire, and there is equitable provision for such cases. If it happens that the municipality of Gayndah, which owes money and does not pay its debts, wants to become a shire, there is am pie power here to protect the public interest. In Part III. we come to the constitution of local authori­ties. The initial difficulty that ha~ been often cast on the Home Secretary has been that of appointing the mayor; but that will not be the case in future, because I am making the number of members uneven, so that they will have to do it themselves. We have worked it in divisional boards with nine members ; and with an unevpn number there will be as little reference as possible to the central Government. The next clause to which I will direct attention deals with the important question of the qualification of a member of a local authority. There are no limits to the qualification of a member. What­ever limitations there are in respect to the quali­fications of voters, I think they should be free in their choice; therefore I have removed some disabilities even since the lloyal Commission sent in their report. The Food and Drugs Act is incorporated in this ; and for the purpose of enabling these provisious to be carried out, the services of the Government Ana.Jyst will be at the call of the local authorities. One of the most important clauses in the Bill is that dealing with the qualification of voters-clause 32. Hon. members must take that clause quietly and consider it carefully, because it forms the basis of the provisions relating to voting power. After the discussion which took place yesterday, I may say that it does not quite carry out the idea of one man one vote, but it carries out the idea which is the foundation of municipal voting power in all Amtralia-namely, that there should be a little more voting power in the case of a man who pays a large sum. This re­duces the limit from what it has been, but does nnt provide for more votes. I'rovision is also made for preventing the anomaly of a man voting more tb an three times in a variety of capacities. I know cases in which men acting as trustees, partners in a firm, and so on, have exercised as many as twelve votes at an election. This clause will prevent that in future, as it provides that no person, notwithstanding that he is qualified in respect of more than one of the qualifications mentioned, shall be allowed to give more than three votes at any election. Clauses 34 and 35 deal with r"'tepayers' lists and voters' rolls. Great complications have occurred in some munici­palities through the present method of preparing the voters' roll. The divisional board practice is a very much better one than that which exists in municipalities. In divisions they have the roll made up shortly before a general election, or very shortly

252 Local Authorities Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Local Authorities Bill.

before a by-election, which is a convenience to the ratepayers_ The provisions to which I refer put both municipalitiea ttnd diviswns on the same footing in that respect, and provide a summary way of giving votes to everybody who is qualified to vote. At present there is one system of preparing the voters' roll in Booroo­dabin, for instance, and another in Brisbane, which is an anomaly, and it is wise to have only the one system. vVith regard to the mode of electing members there is very little alteration in the provisions dealing with that subject. Those provisions might probably have been put in a schedule, so as to make the Bill shorter, but I thought it advisable to in­clude them in the body of the Bill ; they extend from clause 3G to clause 108. vVhat alterations have been made in those provisions I shall point out in committee, but there is nothing very material-nothing I think that is contentious. They have stood the test of time, and provide for voting both by post and by ballot. I now come to Part VII., which deals with the election and privileges of the chairman. Some alterations have beeil made in that section by the com­mission, and some by myself. Part VIII. deals with the proceedings of local authorities. Those proceedings are now htrgely regulated by by-laws, but since the commission sat it has been brought under my notice that it is desirable to make some statutory provision in regard to the matter. Clause 113 enacts that at the first meet­ing, or some adjournment thereof, the local authority shall fix the allowance io be granted to the chairman, appoint the clerk and other officers, and appoint committees for gener.tl purposes. n simply defines for them what are the ordinary duties performed by well­regulated local authorities. Clause 119 is an important one. I do not bind myself to the language of it, but I think that when we are extending the powers of local authorities it is advisable that some check should be provided in regard to their expenditure. The first part of the clause has always been in the divisional board law but not in the municipal law. The latter part gives ]JO" er to the Governor in Council to intervene in cases where it is shown that the site of the office of a local authority is inconvenient for the general transaction of busine;n, and to order it to be removed to some other place, but this is only to be done on a petition signed by at least one­fourth of the total number of ratepftyers of the area. Instances have been pointed out where the office' of the local authority has been situated at a towmhip at the far end of a division extend­ing perhaps 400 mile~, and a few ratepayers have determined that they would not allow the office to be removed. This clause provides that in such a case the Governor in Council shall co'lle in, and on the receipt of a, petition from the rat0-payers showing a fair and just case, order the removal of the office to some more convenient locality, so that persons may not be oppressed by havin,s to ride hundreds of miles when their business might be equally well transacted by having the office much nearer. This clause also provides against wa,ste, fraud, or extrava­gance in expenditure. I know of one instance where a medical man voted hi1melf £50 or £100, which really should not have been allowed. This Bill provides that the Auditor-General shall audit the accounts. At present he may bring under the notice of the Minister cases of extra va­gance, but the Minister is powerless to interfere. If the ]Jrovision to which I refer is pas,ecl it will be the duty of the Minister to protect the interests of the ratepayers, and if he finds that any payment has been made to any member of a local authority which the Governor in Council considers unnecessary, extravagant,

or illegal, he must order such member to repay that money. I believe there will be no nece"<>ity to put that provision into operation when it is known that such a check is provided. The necessity for such a clause, I may ~'1y, was brought prominently before me, but did not come so prominently before the commission. In clause 120 I have provided for cases where members of a local authority ride long distances to attend a special meeting, and are unable to transact any business because there is no quorum. The clause states that when not less than two-thirds of the total number of the members are present at a special meeting, and unanimously resolve to do so, they may transact any business other than that specified in the notice conven­ing the meeting, and I think that where there iG unanimity among the members they should be allowed to go on with urgent business. There is nothing new in Part IX., except the provision that, with the approval of the Minister, the Government i\ nalyst may be appointed by a local authority to be public analyot. Part X. deals with the powers and duties of local authorities. At present there is no provision dealing with ferries, even between two portions of the same municip>tlity, but in this section the necess«ry provision is made for that object. In clause 153 a general power is g1wm to local authorities to acqnire land and buildings for public purposes. The public purposes are stated, and are more numer­ous than those enumerated in the present law, but nothing is included which is not properly a public purpose for local government. Possibly some hon. members may consider that others should be included, but I have felt it my duty to take the list suggested by the commission, with a few exceptions. One of those cast out by me was that in which the commission proposed to establish a new system of loeJJ hospitals. I thought it better to keep to the present system, as I believe they would not be worked as well under that proposal as they are now, when support comes from the hearts of the people and not simply from their pockets. Clause 154 provides for works outside the area. At ]Jresent thev cannot spend a farthing of money-at least they say they cannot-if the work is outside the area. I have been always of opinion that they could, because work outside the area, if connected with the area, is really work within the area. This removes all doubt on that point, and if it should happen that a road a portion of which is a little outside the area requires repairing, this gives power to the local body to spend the money as if it were in the area. Then we come to a numerous variety of things, such as reserves, tree-planting, the sup­plying of gas and water, and the testing of water and gas meters. I hope yDu will give that power to the local authorities even inside the city of Brisbane.

Mr. GLASSEY: And to take over gasworks as well?

The ACTING PRE:YIIER: It gives them power to provide not only the gas and electric light necessary for themselves, but also for the community over which they govern. Then we come to clause 165. There may be places, such as Southport and Sandgate, where it is abso­lutely necessary for the local authority t.> carry out public reclamation works, and pr0vision is made for that purpose. I need only draw your attention to the numerous clauses relating to impounding. Pounds at present are indefinite ; they are under nobody. They are suppo.<ed to be administered by the Department of Agricul­ture, but the poundkeeper is appointed by the justices. There seems to be very little control over them. This throws the whole work of dealing with the matter of impounding upon the people

Local Authorities Bill. [8 JULY.] Local Authoritie8 Bill. 253

themselves, in other words, upon the local authorities. And here I may say th>tt while thie Bill is going throng h committee I hope to have throughout at our command the skill of the Parliamentary draftsman, and if hon. members desire the services of that draJtsman for the purpose of drafting any amendment or any notice which wilL better give effect to the objects of the Bill, I shall be very glad to place his services at their disposal. Clause 205 deals with the burial of destitute persons. I do not ask local authorities to bury persons who may die at a public hospital or a Government in;;titu­tion, but as it is their duty to deal with the dead bodies of animals on their roads, I hope they will take upon themselves the duty of burying all destitute persons who may happen to die within the area. At present the duty is cast on the police, and the police may do it or may not.

Mr. KEOGH: Is there to he any subsidy given for that and similar purposes.

The ACTINJ- PREMIER: First there is machinery provided to collect money by r<1tes, and there is a sub,;idy already given. There are large duties cast upon local authorities by this Bill, much larger than before, and there is power given to get money from themselves in a variety of ways ; and that power exists not only by the ordinary rate, but by the special rates which may be called for for the variety of purposes men­tioned. The burden being thro)vn on the land this House can say, ifthe burden IS unequal they will t",ke it off or lessen it after considemtion, the House dealing from year to yPar with the necessities of the situation. Then we come to the opening and closing of roads, r,nd you will find provbion for giving local authorities greater power,; in reg,,rd to tho2e matters, all of which have been most carefully thought out. Next comes an important matter, and hon. members me.y doubt as to whether this should be a duty C<t''t on the loeal authorities. Power is given to collect from the lands benl'fited, and I may say the benefited area is very marked in this Bill; and I think I shall get a good deal of support from a large number of members when I throw upon the land the duty of paying for any benefits the land derives from ito operations. l refer to the power to deal With pests. In many dir:tricts there are huge areas of land unused on which pests are ever accumulating. This give>; power to levy a special rate on this land. It gives the l'l1inister power to declare what pests are, and it gives power to make, by by-laws, provisionfordAal­ing with them, the land finding the necessary funds.

Mr. KEOGH: In nine cases out of ten it is Government land.

The ACTING PREMIER: Government land must be dealt wit.h by this House, either by a special appropriation for the purpose or by a subsidy. You are the masters of the situation with regard to Govemment land, and if you do not find a remedy you are at fault.

Mr. GLASSEY: But the Minister must take the initiative.

The ACTING PRE:IIIER : I know that, but the responsibility rests on P<>~rliament, not on the Mini~ter. We Me only dealing now with land which is the subject matter of local government, or. which pests exist; and here I may remark that the prickly pear is likely to become one of the greatest curses th<tt ever came into the colony in regard to the damage it is doing to the public land. No Government will, I am sure, now evade in any way the responsibility thrown upon them of dealing with pests, although that has been done heretofore. Bnt we make ample pro­vision for dealing with pests existing on land snbject to local government.

Mr. KEOGH : Can you make the mortgagees fence in?

The ACTING PREMIER : The mortgagee will soon fence nnder the provisions of this BiH if we declare there is a pest on his land and a rate is put on it. Then come pruvisions with regad to aclions for negligence. Local authori­ties at present, when these actions are bronght, never know where they are. A man drives along a street and his horse falls down ; he brings an action, and the local authority is always mulcted in heavy costs by a sympathetic jury. 'This is an attempt to put on a proper and fair footing what the legislature thinks ought to be !he strict liability of the local authority with regard to its operations. You cannot expect them to be altogether perfect. You cannot expect them to make roads as flat as that table when they have not got the money. Now we come to Part XI., which deals with the large subject of health. Some alterations are made in the present health laws, but not many, and I need not do more the.n mention the fact now, beyond stating chat under the heading of "Trades, businesses, and manufactures" it provide~ a tribunal w hi eh may be applied to in casps of difficulty, and that under the heading of "Food and drugo" not one of the clau,es has ever been administered with that amount of energy with which it should have been. Therefore the duty is now cast upon the local authorities to see that food ant! drugs are not adulterated. The Bill, as originally drawn, also included dairies and slaughter-houses, but I have come to the conclusion that this work is of that peculiarly necessitous character that it calls for the putting forth of more energy than we are likely to get from the local authorities, and a Bill will be presented to you casting that imvortant duty upon the Stock Departmeut. I have come to that conclusion be<':<use in some cases where I have tried to get local authorities to under­take the duty thev have appointed officers without giving them any salary. I am sorry to >,ty that heretofore local authorities have re­garded it as their duty to look after the public interest.; in the one direction of getting money and spending it for the benefit of pro­perty. Tt1is Bill, however, casts upon them much higher duties than that, and power is given 1 o make them undertake them. I hope, now that they see it is the wish of the legislature that they should rise to the position which is intended to be given to them Ly thiR Bill, they will rise to the occasion, and make local authvn­ties a V:rt':'t factor in the government of the colony. It is a matter for consideration whether it may not be necessary-and I think it may, when we are imposing all the,e duties upon local authorities-to give bOrne assistance in the way of railw<w pa,ses and coach f.treq in the case of members having to travel long distances. That is a matter that is not d~alt with in this Bill, but I mention it so that there may be an intelligent discus~ion of the question >1s to whether, in view of the grw~ly increased duties which will devolve upon them, they can reasonably be e"pected to make a heavy personal sacrifice of both time and money in order to perform thoq,e duties. I have clauses drafted dealing with this. I ex­press no opinion on the point except to say that it seems equitable that some such consideration should be given to the members of local authori­ties. Infectious dispasPs and the prevention of et:Jidemic diseases are also to be placed unrler the control of the local authorities. Part XII. is one of the most important parts of the Bill, and I hope no hon. member will pass it by without careful consideration. It refers to the del<'gated power which Parliament gives to local authorities by enabling them to make by-laws. 'roo often in this colony we are inclined to shirk re<ponsibility by giving power to frame by-laws, These by-laws mean,

254 Local Authorities Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Local Autko~·ities Bill.

in effect, that Parliament says that it is im­possible to legislate at the moment for every condition of affairs, and therefore we give the lncal authorities certain powers, subject to the check of the Governor in Council. This ques­tion of by-laws was carefully considered by the commission and also by the Government. We shall discuss later on wha.t these Vuriuus powers are, but at present I shall merely specify the different heads. Section 1 deals with by.laws relating to animals ; section 2 with buildings and structures ; 3 with burial ; 4 with business; 5 with fires; 6 with health, safety, and cvnveni­ence; 7with licenses; 8 with noxious weeds; 9 with pests; 10 with roads, footways, etc. ; 11 with tools, ratt'B and dues; 12 with trades and callings; 13 with traffic ; 14 with water; 15 with weights and measures; and 16 with works and under­takings. There is no doubt that all these matters are fitting subjects for by-laws; and, as to the particular powers that are to be given, I might refer by way of illustration to one matter. In order to give further funds to local authorities on goldfields, power is given to levy a toll not exceeding 1d. per ton of stone, quartz, or ore carried in any vehicle over a road. That has been inserted at the suggestion of mining mem­bers. I do not refer to it for the purpose of ra1smg any discus"ion, but only by way of illustration of the powers intended to be given to local authorities in regard to by-laws. It is therefore necessary for hon. members to go through these powers VPry carefully to see whether they contain more or less thnn is desired. 'When we come to them in committee, we shall go through them one by one. In many instances they are extremely good. The matter has been fully considered both by the eo mm ission and by the Government, and we consider them suitable for the circumstance' of the colony. I draw the attention of hon. members to the power to make model by-laws. That has been a great difficulty hitherto, and it is proposed, as soon as the Bill becomes law, to have model by-laws drafted for e::tch local authority, so that they will not nPed to devote their time to that duty to the exclusion of more important dutie>. That is a duty that >hould be castnpon the Govern­ment, and competent draftsmen will be entrusted with the task. I come now to the crux of the Bill-that is, the clauses which relate to the getting in of money. Up to the present we have been discussing the spending of money. Of course, to get in money there must be a valua­tion. There is some little di!Jerence between the proposals of the Bill and those of the commis­sion. It i" provided that that there shall be ordinary and special classes of revenue, but there is no need to refer specially to that matter. We have given careful consideration to the method of valuation. At one time the basis of valuation was the annual value, inclusive of improvements. That system was altered some years ago, and a system of valuing on the unimproved value of land was adopted. As the groundwork of the method of valuation in the Bill, apart from goldfields, we have adhered to that system. In many districts there are a variety of tenures. You may hold land under pastoral lease, next to it you may have a grazing farm, alongside that there may be a freehold, and adjoining that again you may have an unconditional purchase. Of course the greilt difficulty of any system of valuation is to equalise all these different tenures, so that they may all contribute as fairly as po?sible to the rates. 'rhe improvement of the properties comes of course from the rates which each contributes, aod no doubt thnre will be a difference of opinion on this subject. For the purpose of fixing the rating value we have found this difficulty-in some districts they value high and rate low, and in other places they value low

and rate high. The object of that sometimes is to give a fictitious value to property, and I have attempted to prevent that by making whnt may be called a definition, which is adopted in other portions of the world, of a rate of value. In order to prevent people being misled I have provided that for valuing purposes the rating value shall be two- thirds of the unimproved value. It will not matter a bit where they are all on one tenure, bnt it will matter a great deal where there are different tenures, because there will be an equalising power coming in. For the purpose of rating pastoral holdings we used to consider that twenty times the annual rent was a fair basis, but now that money is cheaper we have come to the conclusion that thirty times the annual value is a fairer standard, and that principle has been adopted in connection with all leases.

Mr. HARDAORE: ·what about grazing farms? The ACTING PREMIER: They are the

same. The hon. member will see that we will be on the horns of a dilemma if we make any distinctions. Parliament has constitnted a tribunal to determine the value of pastoral hold­ings, and we cannot go behind that tribunal. All that hon. members will have to do now is to decide whether the basis shall be twPnty times or thirty times the annual value. We have come to the conclusion that the most equitable method is to deal with all leases cm the same basis, and we have to remember that there are certain areas of land which are inchoate freeholds. A man takes up a piece of land, pays rent for it, and it becomes a freehold in time, but the tenure of land forms a very small factor in consirlering the question of rating, and con­sequ~ntly we are taking all those tenures in which there is a right to make a freeholcl, as freeholds. That is the proposition we submit for your consideration. It has been well thought out, and I think it is equitable. Now we come to a class of tenures most difficult to deal with -namely, those peculiar to goldfields. For the purpose of making a b<>sis we have determined to take as a standard the unimproved value accord­ing to the tenure, whether it is a goldfields home­stead,. a freehold, a residence area, a garden area, or anything else. We have fixed them all, but the present inequality is that a freehold without any buildings upon it is rated 8,t its unimproved value, while if the next man has a house five or six stories high upon his land he is rated on the buildings also. There has always been that inequality, but as a mining member I intend to remove it, and we propose to treat all mining property according to its value, remembering that the value of land on a goldfield is very small in comparison with the value of land outside, and that money is required on goldfields to carry on wurks and buildings. We therefore propose to take half the cost of the buildings uniformly. That is as far as we can go, because if taxation is removed altogether from the build­ings there will not be sufficient money to carry on. I have consulted with variou8 goldfields members, and they think that this is the most equitable mode to adopt. There are very many clauses relating to this matter, and they all require to be considered. In regard to minimum rating, the Government consider that it should be reduced from £30 to .£20, and that there shall be no land valued at less than £20. Now I come to another matter in regard to which the members representing pastoral districts may he able to give me some assistance. It sometimes happens that a piece of land runs through two areas, and there is often friction between the two local authorities. Therefore I have endeavoured to make an equitable arrange­ment by which, if an estate is in two areas, it shall, for the purpose of rating the estate, be

Local Autlw'rities Bill. [8 JULY.] Loaal .Authorities Bill. 255

considered to be in the area in which the greatest proportion exists, so that it will pay its rates to one authority only. That system is in force in New Zealand, and we might try it here. Next comes a question which the commis­sion hardly dealt with, and it is one of the greatest difficulty. The greatest dissatisfaction has always been expressed regarding the manner in which appeals are decided, and the commh­sion were unable to devise any mode of consti­tuting a tribunal. I have endeavoured to find one, and hope it will be satisfactory. The great object is to get uniform and experienced asses­sors, and it struck me that the system which we have in regard to the Licensing Court nlight very well be imitated. I cannot see the object of having valuations made for one year only. The system involves a great waste of time, and as the value of property does not alter very much, it might eafely be left to stand for, say, three years. Let the assessors be selected in the same manner as the licensing tribunal-by the responsible Minister of the Crown-and consist of experts, not necessarily because they are justices, but because they know something about the pro­perty they are to value. Say they were !{Oing to value the Wide Bay district, then there would be two assessors appointed from Bundaberg, two from Gympie, and two from Maryborongh ; and they should sit with the Police Magistrate, who would be able to assi<t them in regard to legal points and the taking of evidence. I am sure that people who appeal will have confidence in a court of that kind, composed of disinterested persons who would give them a fair and uniform valuation based upon the whole disLrict. I have a higher opinion of the patriotism of the community than to think that every man elected to a post of duty will require to be paid for his services. I am satisfied that men can be found who will do this work of assessing gra­tuitously, the local authority supplying them with the necessary material.

Mr. KERR: It might debar competent m~n from being appointed as assessors.

The ACTING PREMIER : I recognise the wisdom of divisional boardsmen being allowed expenses, and that might be applied to the assessors; but I do not think that question is at all likely to arise, as their work will be very limited. However, it is a tentative proposal, and it is at all events better than the present system, which is the cause of a great deal of fric­tion and grumbling.

Mr. KEOGH: \V ill there be an appeal to the local justices from them ?

The ACTING PREMIER: No. The hon. member surely would nut make the local ju•tiee,, a higher court than this special tribunal of men of expert knowledge? There will be no appeal from th ern on questions of fact, but of course there would be an appeal on questions of legality. We will say, for instance, to six of these assessors, "Tell us the value of this piece of property." They, after consideration, may say that its value is .£1,000. It may m•t be that exactly, but it is the best way of getting at the value, and there is no use in going on and on, as that would be only incurring expense. The appeal will be on valua­tions to the locnl assf'-Sors sitting in the di~tricts in which the property is situated, in all probability at the board's oflice, where the nppeal courts 8re usually held now. After the board's valuations are out, a date will be fixed when theee men will be at the board's office to hear appeals from those valuations. The fact will be advertised in the usual way, and every man in the distriot will know all about it. Any person who feels aggrieved wi!l attend and appeal against the valuation of his property, and the assessors will put a uniform valuation upon all property in any portion of the same district contributing to the

same fund. In consequence of the arrangement with respect to two-thirds of the value, which I have previously explained, it is necessary in the matter of rates to provide for a higher maximum and under this head it is provided that no general rate payable in t'espect of a pro­perty shall be le's than half-a-crown. It used to be 5s., but that is considered too high, and the maximum rate upon the capital value is fixed at 3d. in the .£1 instead of 2d. as before. Then come in vat·ious provisions dealing with special and separate works and benefited areas; and in these benefited areas power is given for the levy of specj,,] and separate rates, adopting the principles applying to rates levied over the whole area. These pro visions are of a somewhat socialititic character, and a• far as possible we are casting upon the people under local government very mnch higher duties than were given them before. It may be that the Bill, before it gets out uf committee, will provide for the extension of those operations beyond what is now proposed. I am not prepared to say, for instance, that a provision for muni­cipal insurance would not be wise, and other matters of that kind might be suggested. Now comes the question of getting in the money. \V e !mow that loc~l e,nthorities very often make rates and cannot get in any money. J\1uch more summary powers are provided under this Bill in this connection than exist at present. It will not be a profitable proceeding in the future for any oerson nGt to pay his rates because under this Bill his first penalty will be a matter of interest. The amount will not be high ; but a person who has not paid his rates within a certain time will incur an obligation of 5 per cent. by way of interest, and very properly so too. After a certain time the local authority is given the power to lease. That will be sufficient in some cases, but not in all, and if after a certain number of years a man continues to hang on and benefit by his neighbours expenditure, the local authority is given the power to sell the land.

An HoNOURABLE ME;IIBER : After what number of years?

The ACTING PREMIER: After five years, but the number of vears h a matter for the Com­mittee to determiiw. 'l'here should be some power by which the local authority can get at those people, and we give them the power to sell the land and wipe off all encumbrances and mortgages so that the purchMer shall get a free title. \Ve take power in this Bill also to assist the hon. member for Moreton to get at standing timber ; we allow persons to purchase it and cut it, and with the proceeds tha :ocal authority can get its rates. Then we have altered the private system of audit t0 a Government audit. The Auditor-General "'ill be charged with the duty of examining these semi-Govern­ment accounts in the same manner as the ordinary public accounts. I have not been able to make any definite promise in this Bill with regard to the interest charged upon present liabilities, but we take power to deal with the matter. If we can get money at a lower price than is being paid by the local authorities, the power exists in this Bill to reduce the annual interest pa) able on future loans, and to reduce the interest on existing loans. I hope the circumstances of the colony will enable the Government to give the money at a lower rate. It will certainly not be the policy of the Govern­ment to make a profit out of the local authorities by charging them more for the use of money than it co,,ts the Government to get it.

Mr. KEOGH: Are the Government prepared to take over existing dPhts?

The ACTING PREiYIIER: Provision is made for that purpose, but the matter will rest with the administration, It may be wise in some

256 Local .Authorities Bill. [COUNCIL.] .Auditor-General's Reports.

instances to do so, but it may be very foolish in others wh~re the local authorities have got them­selves into trouble. However, there is the power existing which did not exist before. Then comes the question of financial separation, which some boards keep to when it suits them and do not keep to when it does not suit, and they then gather the money together and treat it as a common fund. I have endeavoured to provide, not only for keeping money dealings separate, but also for a federation of divisions. I have endeavoured also to provide for what some divisions have already done-namely, keep sepa· rateaccountsin the separate subdivisions. That has been done in some cases by voluntary compact, but this clause gives legal effect to it; and I think with the controlling power given at the end of the section, an appeal to an impartial tribunal. the result ought to be satisfactory. I have on several occasions endeavoured to settle disputes among local authorities, and in every instance I have found that they have been willing to adopt the decisions given by me. Of course there are powers taken from the Health Act providing for the necessary ex pens" of maintaining the public health, and to make rates for that purpose. Then there is power given to the Governor in Council to sell land to local authorities to meet the necessary expansion of their business. I now come to Part XIX., which is important. It gives power to the local authorities to construct tramways in substitution of ordinary roadwavs. There are some districts where the construction of tramways has been of great benefit. For instance, there is the tramway from Cairns to the Russell River which is paying its way, and has been a great convenience to the public. These clauses will provide for the construction of tramways in agricultural districts if it is found cheaper to construct them than the ordi· nary metalled road. Provision has also been made for the advancement of money for this purpose and the repayment thereof. The clauses have been carefully considered, and it is the duty of hon. members to study them and see whether they are likely to prove of ad vantage. If hon. m ern bers do not think so, then I ask for their criticism.

Mr. DA WSON : You CP,n depend upon that. The ACTING PREMIER : I am not sure.

'What I fear is not the energy but the apathy of hon. members. I ask them to direct their attention not to particular clauses, but to the Bill as a whole. The question of agricultural drainage is aho prrwided for. That portion of the Bill is the law at present, but it is perfectly inoperative. But as time goes on there may be necessity for these provisions, and for that reason they have been reinserted in the hope that they will serve the meful purpose for which they were originally designed. Then cnmes the constitution of joint local authorities. That is essentially necessary where you have divisions so close to· gether. I think it was a mistake in the early days to make so many divisions, and for the last five years I have refused to cut up areas unless it could be shown that the proposed new division had an income of £1,000 a year. The result is that the divioions are working in a more united and consolidated form than they were some years ago. Of course, joint local a•1thorities re~uire the guiding hand nf some power above them, and therefore the Minister enters largely into these clauses.

Mr. DAWSON: It sometimes happens there are not enough divisions.

The ACTING PHEMIER: That may be the case in some localities, but they have not asked for more, and I have not given them.

Mr. DAWSON: No. 1 subdivision of the Dalrymple Divisional Board.

The ACTING PREMIER : They have never asked me for any subdivision. All they have asked for is an alteration in the direction of taking in land at Kangaroo Hills. There are a large number of minor provisions to which I need not now refer. I am simply making a running commentary on the Bill with the object of drawing attention to it. No doubt it contains a lot of valuable improve­ments, and I do not think there should be much doubt about passing its second reading. It is in committee that a more minute examination will no doubt be made, and I particularly desire that hon. members who may have amend­ments to propose will have them printed and circulated, so that we may see beforehand the effect they are likely to have upon other clauses. In dealing with so many sections an hon. member may spring upon me at a moment's notice an amAndrnent which I might think very desirable, but it will be necessary for me to see how many of the other clauses the acceptance of an amendment will necessitate the alteration of. Therefore, I shall appreciate the amendments all the more if they are well thought out and put in writing, so that I may be able to consult with the draftsman and ascertain how many clauses will be affected by them. I have aBsumed that hon. members have all read the recc>mmendations of the Local Government Commission, and, knowing that it might be thought wearying if I went into too much detail, I have simply con­fined myself to making a running commentary upon the Bill. The remarks I have made will be printed in Hansard, and I would ask hon. members to merely take them as supplementary to the commission's report. I now beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.

Mr. GLASSEY: I move the adjournment of the debate.

Question put and passed; and resump_tion of the debate made an Order of the Day for Tuesday next.

OPENING OF SUPPLY. On the Order of the Day for the consideration

of the Opening Speech of His Excellency being read,

The SPEAKER read that portion of the Speech addressed to the Legislative Assembly.

The AC'riNG PREMIER moved-r:t'hat the House will, at its next sitting, resolve itself

into a Committee of the Whole to consider the Supply to be granted to Her :liajesty.

Question put and passed.

The House adjourned at twenty-five minutes to 9 o'clock.