Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

FRIDAY, 25 NOVEMBER 1927

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1318 Que.stions. [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Questions.

FRIDAY, 25 NOVEMBER, 1927.

The l'n.umiAN OF COM:UITTEES I:Yir. G. Pollock. Grrr;ory) took the chair as Deputy Speaker at 10.30 a.m.

QUESTIOKS.

CoxsoLIDATED REvE;o-;c:E, Tm.:sr, A;o-;D LoA:<r Ft:NDS BALAXCES.

:::1-Ir. CORSER (Burnett), for :::1-lr. G. P. BAR:-JES (H'ancick), asked the Treasurer-

" 1. ·what was the balance of the Loan Fund on 30th June last?

"2. \Vhat were the total receipts ant! <'xpenditure of the fund from that date to 31st Oetober, and what was the balance at latter date?

"3. ~·hat were the balances of the­(a) '!:'rust Fund and (b) Consolidated Revenue Fund on 31st October?

"'4. ~·hat was the net balance of all accounts on 31st Octobe·r? "

The TREASURER (Hon. W. :YlcConnack, Cairn:·) replied-

•· 1. Credit, £5,235,513 3s. 3d.

'' 2. Receipts, £4.784,236 1s. 8d.; ex­penditure, £1,375.350 Os. 2d.; transfer from Trust Fund of advances on account of workers' d·welljngs, worker . .,' homes. and Agricultural Bank, outstand­ing at 30th June, 1927, £2,525,261 2s. Sd. : rcpayn1en.t, temporary advance Bank of Bnp:1anc1. etc., £1,370,191 9e. lld.­£5.270.802 12s. 7cl.: credit balance, 31. t 0 rober. 1927, £4.748.946 1'2s. 9d.

"3. (u) Debit, £587,239 15s. 7cl.; (IJ) <1 ·hit. £1.204,549 12s.

"4. Credit, £3,278,123 9s. 8d."

ScPPLY OF SHELL GRIT.

l\Ir. WARRE:'-J (M'urrum bc1) asked the Trea,nrcr-

" 1. Is he awM'e that the "·hole of tho <hell grit supplies of Southern Queensland ha ,-e, through the action of his depart· m"nt, been placed under the control of one trading concern?

" 2. \\'ill he take steps to overcome this monopolistic ownership of shell gl'i~ :-:upplies, which is proving detrin1ental to r he inkrests of poultry farnwrs?

" 3. In any case, can he make pro­vision for poultry farmers to obtain sup­plies from the be1.ches for their own use?"

The TRBAS'CRER (Hon. \Y. :YicCormaek, Cairns) replied-

" 1. No. "2. There is no monopolistic owner­

~hip of shell grit supplies. In the ~fore­ton Bav and Th-Iaroochv districts leases of area~ fron1 which sh~ll grit is obtain­able have been issued to fi~-e persons.

" 3. Any person may apply for a iease of a varant a,rea of fore!'3horc carrying shell grit."

C'ASE OF HERBERT ARTHDR Ct:RLEY.

:Ylr. KERR (Enogycra), for Mr. MAX­\YELL (TooU'ong), asked the Home Secre­tary-

•' 1. Is it a fact that in ::'-Jovember, 1926. h\·o men named Jacob Russell and Herbert Arthur Cm·ley were arrested at Gympie on a charge of breaking and entering a store at Gympie and destroy­ing the :::afe by rneans of explosives?

.. 2. Is it a fact that, while Russell WitS

0onvictcd and sentenced, Curley was kept in the Brisbane Gaol for a period but \Yas neYer tried

" 3. When was Curley released, and why did he not stand his trial? "

The SECRETARY FOR MINES (Hon. A. J. Joncs, l'addinyton), for the HOME SEC'RBTARY (Hon. J. Stopfm-d, Jtiount ][ &ryriJ!l, replied-

.. 1. Yes.

"2. Ye-. " 3. 5ch October, 1927. It was decidecl

uot to file an indictruent."

bSDE OF TRAVELLERS' RATIOXS BY POLICE.

:\Ir. \V_-\LKER (Cooroora) asked the Home Secretary-

•' 1. Have fresh instructions been given during the present year relative to the is>'U<' of travellers' rations by police officer.', and, if so, on what date?

"2. Has the issue of travellers' •rations. been discontinued at certain police ~t,ations, and, if so, at how many <:tation~ ·:

"3. Hmv manv traYellers received rations, and the cost in July, August, and' SPptcmber of 1926. and July, August,. and September of 1927, respectively?

" 4. Has the issue of fresh instructions above referred to caused complaints to· be made, and of what nature?

" 5. Have these instructions resulted in anv diminution in the number of appli­cants for travellers' rations? "

The SECRETARY FOR ::'111:::\ES (Hon_ A. J. Jones. Paddington), for the HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stopford, Jiounc Jlargun}, replied-

,. 1. Yes: on 17th June, 1927.

"2. Ye·; 11.

''3.-

July August SPpt• mber

,July August Septcrnber

'' 4. l\'o. "5. Yes.''

1926.

6.579 6.381 6,119

19.079

1927.

4.157 2,656 2,569

9,382

£ s. cl. 1,087 19 & 1.049 311 1,005 0 5

------£3,142 3 9:

£ s. a. 680 18 4 426 18 2 412 14 2

£1,520 10 8

Extension of Hours of Sitting. [25 XoVE}lBER.] Extension of Hours of Sitting. 1319

EXTE:-\SIO:\" OF HUCRS OF SITTI?\G.

The PHE:\IIER (Hon. \Y. McCormack, Cairn:'): I beg to move-

" That for the remainder of this se'"io11, unless otherwise ordered, the House n1av continue to sit, except on days allott-;,d to, Supply, without limita­iton as to t1n1e.

It is 110t intc'!Hled. of course, to use this po,\·cr ulllPs.;;; ~otnething happens, as hap­pc11Cd one cYcning last 'ycek.

l\L-. CoR~ER: It is a gun.

Tlu PREiHIER : Personally, I have no intention to alter the Sessional Order fixing the hours of sitting, but under that Sessional Order as it now exists, it is quite possible­and no doubt the Opposition have a perfect right to do so-l would probably do it myself if I \rcre sitting in Opposition-by means d a " stonc-.vall " until the guillotine falls to pre·.·ent the Government from doing any lmsi1w" at ;dl. I could never understand why th~ late Premier, :\1r. Gillies, introduced thi; amendment to the Sessional Orders, becan•.! with any sort of an active Opposi­tion--it has been n1ore active this session than in lH'CYions sf'~~ions-no business at all could be aC'C'omplished, because it is very ea_"-- tn carry on a discussion until half-past fiYc, wht•n the guillotine comfq down and the sitting· tern1inatcs. One argument in favour of night sittings is that we can get so much n10t'C' bnsinr~s done. .:\ debate can be carried on until half-pa>'t ten or a quarter to eleven o'clock at night. but the last tram or train nsuallv acts as an accelerator. The last train or train C'xercisrs a tren1endous influence o \"er hon. members. I do not Wi\~t tJ cit ; Her half-pa!?t fiyc o'clock 0.11 ~-hf~ chys not, :-rt aside for Supply. If a reasonable amount of bnsinr's is don<'. I will not be unreasonable. I do not wish bminces to be pas3ed through this Chamber without discussion; but. if there is any attempt at an organised " stmwwall. '' then I wiil r,arn· on. Jf there it3 no evidence of an organi·;ed at t0mpt at a .. stonc,Yall." >Ye will endeavot!r to complete the day's work-rr,ore csreciu!!y on Fnday-at half-past fi..-e. As far as possible, I think I can give an assurance that we will not sit on Friday evenings, bcc~1usc hon. 1nen1?ers want to get away to then homes .. It will _only be applied if there 1;-; anothct· !llustratwn of mere factious opvosition, such a,; we had on the Petroleum Act Amendment Bill. 'Cnder this resolution that will not happen. ::\'othing will be gained by a ~-,'petition of such opposition except a 1-:tc :3lttu~g. It 1s a YC'ry necessary resolu­tion. It >va,; adopted bv the House about this tirue last year. ~

I repeat that I ·do not desire to ";t after 5.30; I do not want it mvsd f. for I desire to g•'t a\YilY Oll hYO days of the week at half-past fiYc. bnt it will only be there really as a11 adtlitional Speaker or Chair~ man of Committees to keep the Opposition 111 order.

Mr. KI~G. (Logan): Personally, I have no great objectwn to an alteration of the Sessional Order fixing the hours of sitting, but I do say unhesitatingly that this motion should not be necessary. It is absolutely unnecessary to amend the Sessional Order in this way.

The PRE:UIER: There never was a limita­tion of sittings prior to the present Standing Orders.

Mr. KING: The Standing Orders have been framed on custo:r1s and practices that. have been in force for years.

The PREMIER: No; this has only been in force a couple of years.

Mr. KI::\'G: If the Government had recog­nised their duty, Parliament would have been called together earlier, so that ample time would ha..-e been given to discuss all business. That is where the trouble has arisen. '\Vhat has been the position this session? The1·e has been a tremendous waste of time-not through any fault of the Opposition, but simply because the Government were not prepared to go on with the business of the· country.

The PRD!IER: The delav >ms due prin­cipally to the railway strike:

Mr. KI::\'G: The busine's of the country \tas held up for over a \Yeek on account of the railway trouble.

The PRE)f!ER: Longer than that.

Mr. KIXG: In addition, business was withheld on accotmt of the Premier's attend­ance at a conference in the south-a very ncccssarv conference I admit. and one that could not hfL\'e proceeded in his absence-but why were the Govcrnn1ent not in a po~itiou to carry on with their proposed legislation in the absence of the Premier? Such matters as the Petroleum Act Amendment Bill. the Rnral Fires Bill. and the Queensland Law Society Bill might have been attended to in his absence; yet the legislation \Yas dday, d. and thP consequence now is that the Prc,nier is finding he cannot get throug-h the business in time for the Christmas vacation and is asking 1nen1bers to sit to a later hour. Whi1st I do not mind sitting to anv hour in order to transact the business of th~ country. I do oL,icet to Parliament being assembled at a late elate and the business of the sr·ssion thl'n being rushed throug·h. The Premier appears t0 think that by this motion he will curtail discussion.

The PRnl!ER: Not at all.

Mr. KIXG: At any rate, he is doing it for the purpose of applying the "gag." ='io Government likes using the '· gag.'' but the present Gove1·nment think they are going to stop discussion by passing this motion. It is all ..-en· well for the Premier to sav that the Opposition have been indulging in " stone,valling " tactics; but no Governn1ent have had the assish.nce of an Opposition to the same extent as this Goyernment.

An 0PPOSITIO~ MDfBER : Thev would ha Ye been lost without it.

:Mr. KIKG: Simply bemtns£ in the dis­cussion of an important Bill the business did not finish according· to the Premier's estimate of time, the hon. gentleman wants to hold this threat over us.

1'h e PRE)JIER : No.

:VIr. KING: We have to face this situation. Are we to continue the day sittings or revert to night sittings '?

The PRE3UER: It looks like night sittings. (Laughter).

::Wr. KING: The Onposition were IJeYCr

considered when the day sittings were pc:t into effect, the Go..-ernment being sufficiently strong to carry that proposal, despite dissen­sion in their own ranks. I haYe no personar

Mr. K'ing.]

1320 Extension of Hours of Sitting, [ASSEMBLY.] Extension of Hours of Sitting.

objection to the Premier's motion being carried, but it is certainly not going to stifle discussion. The Opposition are quite pre­pared to debate m·cry matter coming before the Hollse, whether we are detained till 5.30 p.m. or 5.30 n.m.

l\Ir. CORSER (Burn' tt) ·. The Premier gaYe no sou!ld rt·~son for introducing this motion. He claimed that on a certain evening "~Stone­walling" had taken place; but, if the hon. gentleman rcalis•··s the position at all, he must. admit thrrt. if there were such tactics for half an hour or so-which is hardly worth men­tioning-a Minister of the Crown started them. Had it not been for that action, the dansc undet discus .ion would ha ye gone through probably within fiye minute·,. The Premier '""' in quite a good humour -when introducing this 1notion, and he told us that probably it was not likely to he used. It is just there as a threat to come down on us if we do not do \dl:l t hP wants us to do. \Ye arc not going to be dictated to bv thE• Premier or bY a reso­lution sue b as this' as to what we shO:ll do, or as to ho-w \Ye shall carrv on our busines.'3 as an Oppo.,ition. From time to time. if it does l'Ot please the levity of the Premier and we get rtt cross pllrposes, he will have to use this me-,sure. vVe do not wish to make anv threatc, but merely s>.y that we are going to

'f'al'ry out our duty in the manner in "vhich we are expected to do it. \Ve know that important legislation is still to come before us-the Land Bill and other such matters­and very possibly the Premier would advance the interests of the Government and of the country if, in connection with the discussion

·Of such legislation, he approached t.his side of the House in a conciliatorv manner rather than by ha.nging an axe oyer our heads with a Yie,,~ to bringing it .do\vn at any moment.

The P RE:I!IER : There is no axe. I do Hot think it will be neccssarv to put this rnot.ion into efiect. '

. Mr. CORSER : 'The Premier might feel so JUSt at the pre<cnt moment, but at times he might no~ fop] quite as pleased with himself, and rhat Is when we haYe to suffer for it and worse than that, the House has to cuffer:, ancl the unfm·tnnate Opposition is blamed for it when tlw Premier himself is responsible for .the whole t~ing. _I do not see any necessity fOl' mtroducmg thh motwn. The Opposition have been most reasonable. They have made history in thei,· attention to dutv and their assistance to Ministers, particular!\- the Pre­mier, in the passi_ng of legislation during the whole of tlus ses-non. I eee no reason for the amendment, and I sincerely hope that the Premier will not _use this motion every time we oppo:'e a n1otion, as a threat ao-ainst us which will mean that we shall onlvo have to sit till morning. '

l\h. S\VAYNE (Miran£): 'I'.he Premier goes ours~de and talks !'bout democracy and so on, yet tt \\'Ould be Impossible to find a better inetance than this motion of the utter con­tempt that the hon. gentleman has for Par­liament. \Ye have sat for thirty-seYcn days thb year, and now the hon. gentlema.n wants to force the business through in a few days. That is not what the people of Queensland expect. There are 365 da vs in the vear and the people elect soventy-t\vo men t'o P~rlia· ment to do their work after full discussion and full consideration. We had an importa.nt Bill before us the other daY in which the DppoBition considered the public interests

[Mr. !ling.

WCi'e threatened, and because we continued the discuP3ion till half-past 5 the hon. gcntle­Inan comes along and says, " If in future you do not allow all my measures to go through in the time I think thev should ''-not the time Parliament thinks-'" I am going to keep you here all night."

The PRE:l!IER : :::-\' o.

Mr. S\VAY~E: There is alv;·ays the threat hanging oYer us. Can in1portan( la1vs be d1s­CU5scd under tmch conditions as that? On the thirt:,¥-:::cven days that ParliamPnt hus ~ut we ha,.-c discussed eighteen Bills. Some of them han' been Supply Bills, but tho majority have been amending- Bills, and the fact that such a large proportion are amend­ing Bills is duo to tlw very system the hon. gentlerna.n 1Yishes to perpetuate by thi~ motion. rrhcsc an1ending Bills arP necessary because business ha.s been rushed through under such threats as the hon. gentleman has just uttered, and before the laws are a year old it is found nece•;sarv to ask Parliament to amend them. V\ e have on the business­paper at the present time something like eight or nine more Bills. most of which are amending Bills ·due to the very system that he is trying to perpetuate, whic·h will make the position still worse.

During the thirty-seven days wo have sat we haYe voted 0\'er £13.000.000 of public money. \Ye have discussed the general and financial position of the State whE'n debat­ing the Address in H.cply and the Financial StatE'ment. The business has been transacted as quickly as any Leader of the House could desire; in fact, the business has, perhaps, been discussed too quickly for the public interests, seeing that we arc the sole legis­latiYe Uhambcr and tlwre is no reYising bodv. Anv fault there is lies with the Leader of £he House in calling us together so late, and tlwn, without sufficient cause, hanging up the business for two intervals of a week 0ach. The time for the discussion of Supply has been curtailed bv th,• institution of the double days. The ordinary parliamentary day is six and a-half hours.

The DEPUTY SPI~AKER: Order!

Mr. S\YAYKE: l simply want to make my protest. Under cO\·cr of the double days for Supply three-quarters of an hour is taken off each dav. \Ve haw still to discuss the cxpenditme ·of £13,000,000 or £14,000.000 as provided by the Estimates; but the Premier is trying to bull-doze the business through, and has practically said to u:o, "You have taken what I think is an unfairly long time, and I may keep you here all night." lf we considncd the interests of the State, there should be no limitation of discussion. If it is necC'ssary to come back and sit at the commcneemcnt of !he year. we should do so.

Mr. WARREN (Jlurrumba): I make my protest, not so much against the motion, as against the attempt of the Premier to make out that the Opposition are to blame in this matter.

The PRE}f!ER: I did not say they were to blan1c.

1\Ir. \VARRE::\: Tlw hon. gentleman said we were to blame. and stated that we had stonewalled a Bill.

The PRE,UER: I am giving mort> time fot• discussion.

Mr. WARREX: There is no one more to blame than the Premier. Sllrcly with the

Extension of Hours of Sitting. [25 NoVEMBER.] Extension of Hours of Sitting. 1321

number:-; the Gnverrnnent hase got they can go on with business without the presence of the Premier ! The hon. gentleman has had a lot to contend with during the last few months; but that is no reason why he should blame the Opposition foi· wastp of time. There ha~y boon a very strong endea:vour on the part of the Opposition to help the Go­v;,rnmcnt. There he·· not been so much -opposition to the Govorntncnt this session as in past scs~ions, and \YO haYe attempted to :Hsist the GoYernment. partirnlarly in their transactions out~ide thi:-l {_'luunlJcr. Not one Bill has been m a de a party measure this sc:;:s.ion. \Ye have soug-hi to i:nprovc every fliil th•.t has been brought ·,dare the Cham­),er, and I defy the hon. member to deny that statement. J\iost of our amPnclnwnts haYe imnrovecl th2 Bills that han• bc•en brought in. I han• no objection to s:t.ting all night. if necessary, but nPither the Premier nor anybody else is going to ho1d a stick over 1nc and say, ,; Y on rnust be a ,;;·ood boy." This is nothing n1ore than a threat on the part of the Premier. "If yon don't do what I want ~·ou to do, I am g-oing to keep you here all night."

The PRE:\IIEil: It is all in your own hands.

Mr. \Y ARRE::'ol: W c resent it. and will fight against any domination on thr· part of one n1an in the Government.

Mr. KERR (Er>Of!(!Ua): I do not think any hon. mmnber on this side of the House 11as any objection to the motion as it stands; it is to the matter introduced bv the Premier in moving it that we object. He made rderence to the very vicious principle of the " gag" or the " guillotine.'' Evidently the possibility of bringing it down is in the Premier's n1ind.

The PRE:IIIER: That i' another matter altogether.

l\Ir. KERR: The Opposition have no Dhjection that I know of to sitting here day and night to consider legislation; but· they do object to have debate limited by the use of the " guillotine " under thco Standing Orders.

The PHE}!IER: That is not proposed.

l\1r. KERR: I think that the Opposition and the people of Queensland generally arc fairly \Yell acquainted with the tactics of the GovPrnrnent in regard to the "guillo­tinE'." I cannot quote last session as an c•xample. but during the last Parliament it came clown-not once or twice, but hundreds of times-to get through the legislation when it came to a C}Uestion of sitting without limi­tation of time. Ano1her remark which cannot be pa•.scd without cocnment is the Premier's <·JH:I.ea vour to place the responsibility on the ,houldPrs of the Orposition. He has no i'ight to do that. 'rhe Opposition have a duty to perform. \Vhy say that the ro-:pon­sibility is on ihe shoulders of the Opposition and refer to a stonewall'! 'rhere is no C}ues­:tion of stonewalling. It is no pleasure to auybody to sit in this House and discuss matters; but one has a duty to perform. I do not think that stonewalling exists, but one must discharge the responsibilitv of placing his views before the ChambPr: and that is a matter for the discretion of the Opposition. \Ye do not intend to ask the Premier or his partv what \Ye shall sav or when we shall sa:y 'it; and I am strong·l~­Df the opinion that this motion contaim 'a threat ~nd suggests a vicious prirH:iple,

should it go through. Tbe Premier knows as \Hell as I do that we did not meet until 24th August, so that some eight months of the year had passc•d and then we sat barely two days before we again adjourned. To date we hnvc sat only some thirty-four or thirty-six day.<, and the year has nearly exnirocl. That is rather scandalous, parti­cularly when not only is there important legislation on the business-sheet but a \1 ory important and. perhaps, contentious Bill has yet to be placed before us. Probably that i3 the reason whv it is necessarv to indicate hy a threat that· there is a possibility of the application of the '·guillotine."

The PnE}!IETI: The motion is an extension of tlw right to speak.

Mr. KERH: 'l'he hon gentleman can lmv<' it that wav if he likes. The motion itself mys that ~·c can sit past the ordinary time of adjournment. bnt a different com­plt'xion is givPn to it when the hon. gentle­Inan in introducing his motion expresses the hoJ>c that. it will not be necessarv to use the "guillotine." That remark has onlv one Irll'Uning to us; but I think the country !mows wlwre tlw responsibility rests for rush­ing nH,asurcs through this I-Iouse without due considcratioll. It is absurd that, with 365 da:cs in trw year or 313 without Sundays, this Parliament should he called upon to sit for a 1niserable thirty.four or thirty-six days up to datP. The bmincss of the country has net bPcn carried our under this Govern1nent as ir should be. There is any amount of time. Members am clech•d to give their yery be~t services to the people at any tin1e, not for a few cl<t3'S, and if important legis­lation has to be thrashed out in this Chamber fuli time should be allowed to discuss it. r.rhe very business-sheet ~haws how legislation has been rushed through in the past. We haYe nothing but Bills to amend legislation already passed. I support !he Deputy Leader of the Opposition, and I hope that everv opportunity will bP giYen for discussing legislation and that under no circumstanc0s will the " guillotine" be used.

l\lr. DEACO~ (Ounningham): The Opposi­tion has not been guilty on any occasion of wasting timP. We haw discussed all the Bills in a reasonable• way, and a.re prepared to

continue on those lines. We have [11 a.m.] always been prepared to meet the

GoYernment. It cannot be said that we haYe been guilty of puttir.g forward nnrea.son•1ble argun1ents or 1noving nnrea~on­abie amendments. Anything we haYe done has bePn in strict conformity with our duty, and the Prcn1ier catnwt achieve any gJod purposE' by forcing through a motion like this. lie is sirn ply sandbagging us.

The PRB!IER : No.

Mr. DE~\CON: 'rhis is not ::t fair wav of dealing with the business of the House. 'The Ministers of the Crown have been responsible in some degree for wasting time, but the Pre­mier himself has been responsible for the greatest waste of time. Now at the tail end of the session we are nsked to hurry up and carry Bills without ::t reasonable opportunity of di··cussing them. That is not the way to carry on the business of the country, and I for one protest against these methods.

The PRE}IJER: The motion will not prevent a rPasonablP opportunity fDr discussion.

Mr. DEACON: It will.

Mr . ..Qeacon.]

13~:2 Rural P:r.s Bill. [ASSEl\IBLY.] Rural Pirc.s Bill.

1\Ir. ED\VARDS (_Yanungo): I wiBh to pro­test a-gainst the methods adopted by the Premier. Most of the difficulties that arise from time to time could be overcome by the 1V1inisters in charge of the various measures. It is well known that amendments moved by the Opposition and refused by the Govern­ment are embodied in the legisla,tion in a later session. In that dirc"tion a considerable amount o[ time could be saved. The Premier would be well advised to withdraw the motion and suggest to his Ministers that they be guided by the advice of practical men from this side who understand rural con­ditions and move amendments embodying the wishes of t.he people. When the \Vater Act, which was discussed for clays in this House, \Vas being considered, and when other legis­lation was being ·dealt with, hon. members on this side, from their practical knowledge, poiutc'd to the inevitable result of the legis­lation. :!'\ow the Uovcrnment find it neces­sary to introduce amending legislation or wipe certain legislation right off the statute­book. Quite a lot of time could be saved if the Ministers in cha,rgc of the Bill<> would forget party prejudice and accept the ad,-icc of practical men.

Tl:e PHEoiiER: There must be differences of opinion.

Mr. ED\\'ARDS: I quite rea.lisc that, but lt is well known tlw,t, when legislation afl'ect­ing 1·ural district-. i:-3. introduced, Yery often l\1inisters sit tight. and refuse to accept any a1ncndmeut.s whatever. That has oecurred on verv m::tnv occa(Ions. ::\1inister6 would do we'll to \·iew rrmtters, not entirdy from the point of view of party, but from the point of view of \vhat is best in the interests of the countrv as a whole.

0

Question (Jlr. JicCorm,,ck"s mutio11) put and passed.

RURAL FIRES BILL.

Cmrli!ITTEE.

(Jir. lFcir, Jfaryborough, one uf the pand of Temporary Chairmen, in the chair.)

Clause 1-" Short title and cammcncc­nunt "-

Ivlr. CORSER (JJurnttt): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On lines 5 to 9, both inclusive, page 1, omit tho \VOrds-

' 'The Rural Fires Act of 1927, anrl shall come into operation on a date to be fixed by the Governor in Council h:c proclamation published m the " Gazette." Such date is hereinafter referred to as the com­n:cnccnlent. of this Act,'

and insert in lieu thereof the \vords-' The Crown Timber Preservation (at the expense of adjoining land­holders) Act of 1927.' "

It will be apparent that the amendnwnt merely endeavours to make tlw titlP of the Bill lit its intention. The Bill is really one to pronde for the preservation and protec­tion of State forests from fire, at the expense of the adjoining landholders. Clause 15 shows very clearly that these landholders are call~cl upon and are compelled to destroy all mflammable matter on their land. The board to be appointed under the Bill can make the order to do so at any time. The

[iffr. Eclwards.

Bill abo provides that certain districts c,m be proclaimed as rural lire districts Tlw unfortunat0 landholder adjoining a State forest has no such opportunity of evading the conditions.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! I have considered this amendment and have decided not to accept it. It is frivolous, ancl is not in keeping with the conditions govern-· ing the busmess of this Chamber.

UovERKoiENT ME,JBERB: Hear, hear!

Mr. CORSER (Bur Ill tt) : ::\Ir. \Y cir, I mov-e that your ruling be disagreed with. I disagree entirely with your statement that. the amendment is frivolous. It quite explains the intention of the Bill, and I cannot sPe that it is not in >tccordance with the Standing Orders. There arc othe1· wishes whi<'h rather force your opinion in this n:attcr. The Opposition should enjoy the rights that the Standing Orders provide .. If the amendment was not so hard on the CJm·ernmcnt, probably it might have recciYed a different reception. Unfortunately, the atnend1nent. so clearly states the intention of the Bill that cverv aYcnue has been sought to prevent its dis~cu~sion b_y thiR Com­lnittcc. I think in ruaking your rulill!:T. you have cxcc·cdcJ. your authority, for :'\-ou ha...-e thn,; deni0e! to the Opposition a right that tht'y po, .. c,;>;. I mnst also complain. too. that you have given your ruling in such a way as to add insult to injury by saying that the­anlPndmcut is frivolous. An~y rea:::onable hon. lllC'rnbrr will agree that u it has been n1ovcd iu a1l st·riousncs~, and is a fair con­otruction of the wording of the Bill.

Mr. KIXG (Logau): I beg to second tlw motion. With all due re;pect, I '·ish to srty that the proposed title is not by any means friYolons. The more fact that it is so abso­lutely true takes away anv suggestion of friYolitv. The amendment ;eeks ·to describe the Bill as " the Crown Timber Pr0servation (at the expense of adjuining landholders) Act. of 1927." That is exactlv what the Bill is. Existing lcgldn.tion in the Careless l~se of Fire Prevention Act provides for practically ey-erything that this Bill seeks to impose, with the exception of tlw prevention of fire' on timber re' cn·es, State forests, or national parks, which arc all the property of the Crown. If this Bill had any proYision in it by which the Crown, too, would be bound, then there would be no objection to the title. The title is a very pretty one-it conjures up in the mind a. i1icture of the country, trees, and all that so,·t of thing; but it in no wav giYes any indication as to the real purport

0

of tlw Bill. The amendment of the hon. membc1· for Burnett has Eothing friYoloU3 >tbout it, becau~c its rncaning is so absolutely true as to remove any idea of frivolity.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC Lc\NDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Uyi'•'pic): Mr. \Veir, yom· ruling on the n1otion is so obviouslY correct that there is no necessity to adv~nee any argument in support of il. The motion is really charactc,·istic of the Opposition-m at least of the hon. member who moved it­bccauet', after a.ll the talk about its reason­ableness. it is put forward merely as a gibe at the Governraent.

Mr. ConsEn: What a.bout the gibe at th•c landholders adjacent to Crown reserYes?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : As I say, Mr. \Veir, it requires no argum~nt of mine to support your sensible ruling.

Rural Fires Bill. [25 NovEMBER.] Rural Fires Bill. 1323

Mr. KERR (Enoggera): H is indeed hard to have the definite statement that the amend­ment of the hon. member for Burnett is frivolous. There can be no doubt that the Bill now before the Committee is one dealing solely with the preservation of Crown timber. As the Deputy Le·:der of the Opposition points out, the Careless Use of Fire Preven­tion Act is ample legislation on the matters proposed in this Bill, with the exception of the question implied in the amendment moved by the hon. member for Bm·nett. We know that the Rural Fires Bill is the work of the Forestry Department, and v;e know that its main object is to protect the Crown timber. Under these circumstances is it not fair and proper !hat the title "the Crown Timber Preservation (at the expense of adjoining landholders) Act of 1927" should be given to it. It is not frivolous to cite that title, which has been given in all good faith. That title will be much better understood than that of " Rural Fires Act," because the latter is open to mis­co_nccption f.t.nd rnisinterpretation. Dealing W! th the matter of forest fires, one need only call to mind tho serious forest fires that have taken place in Victoria. I venture the opinion that such a catastrophe as that eannot apply to this Bill. It was became of such happenings that t.he Director of Forests thought it necessary to take some action to prevent similar happenings in Queegs]and. I believe that to be the ease. because I have given a little thought in another direction to this matter, and I phced this scheme b. fore Mr. Poole, the Commonwealth Director of Forcsls, nnd I understtmd that he was instru­mental in holding a conference in rcr:a re! to abating the seriousnes~ of buBh fires sO' far as State forests are concerned by the method of the screen: a very good method that was .. too. I believe it was to be subsidised by each State of Australia, together wilh the Commonwea.Jth of Australia. I believP this Bill is the result of the arguments and the debate that took place at the Premiers' Conference \vherc this matter was discussed.

Mr. PoLLOCK: What has t,his to do with the Bill?

. Mr. KERR : You are out of your place ,1mt now. It gives rise to this question: Whether this Rural Fires Bill a.s we know it is to ·control burning debri5 i{l back yards o{· is for the preservation of State forests.

J\:'Ir. POLLOCK (Gregory): l\fr. Weir, I cla1m t~at your ruling is unquestionable. In no Parliament in the \Vorld is an Opposition ewr permitted to alter the title of ,, Bill.

::Wr. BRA::-m: It is often done.

:vir. POLLOCK: It is not often done-not even by ihe Government. which introduces thP Bill. . .

Mr .. BRA:-;D : It is often suggested by an Oppos1hon and accepted by the Gnvermuent

Mr. POLLOCK: I have not seen anv ex­ample. \Vhat good purpose could be s~n·cd by allowing an alteration of the title of the Bill?

l\lr. BR.\xD: You used to do it when you 'vrrc in opposition.

Mr. POLLOCK : I never '"'" in onposi­tion. (Laughter.) No good purpose co;;ld be served by altedng- the title of the Bill. That is obvious. and -the amendment is a mere waste of timP, and was moved obviouoly as a httle qmp a.gamst the Government, and is

largely in the nature of obstruction. I main· tain that the amendment is out of order because it is frivolous and can serve no good purpose. A discussion on the amendment would be mere waste of time, and it is not an amendment that any deliberative Assembly should wa.ste it-; time in discussing.

Mr. DEACON (Gunningharn): I am sur­prised to hear the hon. member for Gregory talk like that. The amendment prO\-i des for· a proper title to the Bill. Its whole business is to protect State forests, and why should we not give it its true name? \'\Thy camou-· f!age • \V e thought we were doing the Go" vernment a good tnrn in sug·gesting this title. The hon. member for Burnett desires to help !he l\1inister to get a better title for his Bill rrnd one t.hat the public will recog­nise. :!'\obody looking for an Act dealing with the protection of State forests aga.inst fires would look for a Rural Fires Act.

l\Ir. PoLLOCK: "'"ill an alteration of the title serH· any public purpose?

::\ilr. DEACON: Of course it \vill. This is a Bill designed for that purpose, so why not give it its pwpcr name·? All the other parts of the Bill, so far as rural fires are con­cerned, are subsidiary. The Bill is for the special prNection of State forests. It is because of fires in State forests that. it is being introduced. The Government never \vorried about grass fires before. \Vhy 1:ot accept tl1c amendment and let us get on With the bu::-ine.ss?

Mr. S\YAY:'-:E (Jlirani): I cannot help thinking. ~\1r. \Veir, that your decision is an arbitrarv rc>striction of the rights of mem­bers to \nave amendments. If the :Minister had been a little clearer on the second read­ing of tlw Bill, there would have been no need for this amendment; but he left the 1'1atrcr in doubt: in fact. he created the imprc"ion that the purpose of the Bill was as indicated in the amcndment-simply for the protection of lhc State forests at the expense of the neighbouring landowners. If >uch is the case, then the title suggested by the hon. member for Burnett is the right one. and it should be competent for the Committee to alter the title. The position should be made clear before we go any further. If the Bill is going to apply to all lands in rural districts, many amendments of which notice has been given "·ill be necds­sary: on the other hand, if it is only going to apply to State forests, there \vill be no need for many of the suggested amendments. The Minister left it quite in doubt as to whether the Bill is to apply to all lands in rural districts, and, if it is not, the title £-nggested in the an1endment is t.he only proper description for the Bill.

Mr. WARRE:\ (Jlmrumlw): The Minister com·eved the idea that the clause could not be alicred, which is most ridiculous. What is the Bill brought. dowu for if it cannot be altered bv the Committee? If it can be altered, how can the ruling of the Temporary Chairman be corrPct? I do not see a farm­ing expert prompting the Minister in charge of the Bill. It is a forestry expert who is prompting him-the whole thing is branded with forPslry. Why bring the producer i_n at all" The Minister does not denv that this is a Forestrv Bill-·he is too honest to do so. Then why ~hould the title not b2 properly drafted., I cannot understand the hon. mem­ber for Gregory. It would be just as sPnsible to call his little girl '' Charlie" as to call

Jlfr. Warren.]

1324 Rw·al Fires Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rural Fires Bill.

this a Rural Fires Bill. (Laughter.) That title is an absolute misnomer, and I say that the Bill should show on the face of it what it is for, and that the expense is to be placed on the producer. Otherwise it is only beating about the bush or sailing under false colours. The amendment is quite a proper one, and the Minister should have accepted it and got over the difficulty, because the whole measure from beginning to end is desc1·ibed by the title which is pro­posed by the amendment, and not that in the printed Bill.

l\Ir. BRAND (Bttrrum): It is abcurd for the hon. member for Gregory to suggest that we cannot change the name of a GoYernrnent Bill. \'\' e on this side c-ertainly cannot, because the Government have the majority; but we can move an amendment for the purpose. jylembers of the Opposition have just as nnwh right to moYe an1·endments, prO\·ided they are dignified and not frivolous, as the l\Iinister has to bring in the Bill.

::\Ir. Sw.;YxE: And on eyery clause of the Bill.

Mr. BRAKD: They ha Ye just as much right to move amendments as the :Minister. You, l\Ir. \Veir, hav-e not ruled the amend­ment out of order for the reaeon given by the hon. member for Gregory, but because you sa~· it is undignified; but I think any reasonable man will admit that it is couched in dignified language and that it is not friYolous .. because it giv·cs a true indication <lf what the Bill really means. If we are to name BilJ.s at all, surely it is our duty, as business tnen, to giYe them their true titles and not misnomers, so that the people in the countrv whom this Bill \vi!! .affect will be un-der~ no rnisapprehension.

::\Ir. POLLOCK: Gi,-e us an illustration of su-ch an an1endnH:>ut.

Mr. BRAND : I could find them in " Han­sard" of this Parliament and of other Parlia­ments. I haYe been in this Chamber for some considerable time, and have heard amendments mm·ed altering- the titles of Bills, and they have not been objected to bv the Chairman of Committees. 1 haye read of such cases in the Federal Houses. and I sa'· that Labour Oppositions always t-1tke the opportunity to attempt to alter the titles of Bills if they can g-ain any political a<hantage.

l\lr. POLLOCK: GiYe us one illustration.

::\fr. BRc\ND: I have not Federal "Han­sard " hero, but \vhat I am saying is perfectly true, and I know the hon. member for Grcgory i.s net serious in his contention upholding your point of order. You arc ne.* correct in ·disalloiYjng the an1endn1ent.

Mr. l'ETERSO::'\ (Tormanb.11): I think it is just as well for us to read the title of the Bill which it is proposed to amend-

" This Act may be cited. as ' The Rural Fires Act of 1927.' "

That i_s all_ rie;ht, but the Minister, in reply to an mtel']ecbon on the second reading, said that this Bili was designed to protect the State forests.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Do not misinterpret what I said. I never said any­thing of the sort.

Mr. PETER SON: I do not want to mis­represent the hon. gentleman, but I reallv took it that that was what he meant, cor:se-

[Jlr. Warren.

quentlv the Opposition came to the conclusion that, although certain powers were contained in the Careless Use of Fire Pr-evention Act, the Minister was desirous of obtaining addi­tional powers to protect State forests and timber reserves.

Mr. PoLLOCK: The hon. member for Bm·nett asked everv member of the Opposi­tion to support his disagreement with the ruling of the chair.

l\Ir. CORSER: That is not true. You have 1nade a vvrong guess.

M1·. Krxo: You will have to guess again. Mr. POLLOCK: I caught the hon. member

for Burnett doing- it.

l\Ir. PETERSON: Clause 7 empowers the l\Iinistcr to exact from landholclers adjoin­ing Sb1te forests the cost of preventing fires extending to the State forest reserves. There

is no other reason whv the Bill [ll.W a.m.] is introduced than for the preser-

vation of State forests. If one reads the second reading speech of the Minister. one will find that he dealt directly with the preservation of State forests.

::\Ir. C'ORSER: It will have the effect of ruining the landholder.

;-,h. PETER SON: There is nothing- in the Bill to say that the Forestry Department shall be held respomible for damag-e caused by any fire that breaks out in lantana on a State forest reserve and spreads to a banana farm and ruins that farm. No protection is given for the landholder; consequently the Bill imposes a liability on the )andholder only. In those circumstances, why be afraid to give the Bill its correct title? The Bill is introduced for the purpose of preserving State forests at the expense of adjoining landholders. It is not a Rural Fires Bill at all, because it specifically deals with State forests. l sincerely trust. l\Ir. \V eir, that you will sc>e your way clear to allow the amendment to stand.

}Jr. LOGA:'\ (Loci. yer): I wish to disagree with your ruling, Mr. Weir. It must be obvious to everybody that the tactics adopted by the hon. member for Gregory merely amount to bluff. The hon. member for Bm·nett has only moved an amendment seek­ing- to give the Bill its correct title. I bplieve that everv hon. member would be r'repared to support a genuine Rural Fires Bill. but. the contention of the hon. member for Burnett is that the present title is not a fitting- title. and that it should be called '·the~ Crown Timber Preservation (at the expense of adjoining- landholders) Act of 1927.'' \Ye are told by you, Sir, that the amendme"t is frivolous and cannot be accepted.

JI.Ir. BeLCOCK: It wa, meant to be frivolous. Mr. CoRSER: I value your opinion less than

I do the Chairman's.

The 'l'K\IPORARY CHAIRMA::'\: Order! I aek the hon. member for Burnett to with­draw his ren1ark.

l\Ir. C'ORSER: What remark?

The TEMPOHARY CHAIRMAX: I ask the hon. member for Bm·nett to withdraw his remark.

Mr. CoRSER: I made no remark that I will withdraw.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: I ask the },on. member for Burnett to withdraw

Suspension of JJember. [25 NovmmER.] Suspension of Jlember. 1325

the remark he made to the hon. member for Barcoo that he valued his opinion loss than h~ did the Chairman's. I consider hi> J'emark to be a r•2fiection on the Chair, and I ask him to withdraw it.

I1Ir. CORSER : I am sorry if I have made any remark that I should withdraw, but I do not intend to ,:.ithdraw any remark that I made.

l\lr. BcLC'OCK: You n1ade that rcn1ark. ::\lr. CoRSER: I did. I macle that remrcrk. "".Ir. KJ.:RR : There was no reflection on the

Chair. Mr. LOGA::-;-: The amendment is referred

to as ". frivolous an1cndment.

The TEJViPORARY CFL\IRi\1A::-;-: Order! I giYe the hon. member for Burnett another oppm·tunity of obeying the ruling- of the Chair, othencise I must report him to the House. '

:\Ir. CoRC-ER : I h _, ve rny right,; and privi· leges here, and I am not going to be dictated to by you in that WC!}'. It would be an insult to a member of the Opposition.

:\lr. BRAXD: There was nothing said to which anyone could take exception.

Tlw TE\fPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order ! I shall nm•· report the hon. member for Bur· nett to the House for refusing to obey an order of the Chair.

J\Ir. IGKG (Lorun): I would like to say that, so far as I can gather. and I was here during the "·hole time, the hon. member for Burnctt--·

The PnniiEP : Y on can state tlnt on the floor of the House, but not now.

:Hr. KIXG: I will do so. The Hoase rcciumed.

SrSPEXSJOX 0F MEMBER. Th, TE:\IPORAR Y CHAilUiA~ : Mr.

Speaker, I have to report that in Committee the hon. member for Burnett, :\lr. Corser, refused to obey the Chair.

The DEPUTY SPEAI(EH : The 'Tem· porary Chairman reports that in Committee the hon. member for Burnett, :\1r. Bernard Henry Corser, refused to obey the Chair.

::\Ir. KE\G (Logan): ::\Ir. Deputy Speaker--

The PRE::\HER (Hon. W. ::HcCorrnack, Cairns): I have no other option than to see that the authoritv of the Chair is sustained. I move- '

" That the hen. member for Bnrnett be suspended from the service of the House for the remainder of the sitting.''

I have no other option.

::\lr. KIXG (Lor;an): I ver-y much regret that the Premier has moved that motion.

The I'RDIIER : I have no other option.

::\Ir. KING: The Premier does not· know ,,-hat took place in Committee. I do not think that the motion is deserved. All the hon. memb0r for Burnett said in reply to an interjection by the hon. member for Barcoo was. " I Yalue your opinion less than I do the Chairman's."

OPPOSITION ME~IBERS : Hear, hear ! Mr. WARRE?>i: That is all that was said.

The DEPliTY SPEAKER: Order !

The PRE}liER: As a matter of fact, did the hon. mc,nbcr not cast a r·e!lcction on the Chair?

0PFOSIT!O?>i J'viE}JBERS: :'\a! Ab,.·olutely no! GovER:\:UE)[: :;JE:HBEHS: Yes.

The DEPliTY SPK\KER: Order ! rrhc PRE~IIER: Did ho not say, " Your

opinion is of lees value than the Chair­lll.::tn's"?

Mr. E:.Il\G: .::\o-" I value your opinion less th'm I do the Chairman's."

Ga\'E!C}lfc:\~ }\lniBERS: He did not. (;r'PO-~lTIOX =1lE:<.lBERS: l-Ie did.

The DElTTY SPEAKER: Orcld! 'I he .PRE}l!ER: The hon. member for Bur­

rett can withdraw. }Jr. KE\G : I may not be absolutely

correct. Tbe PRDIIEH: I must uphold the authority

of the Chair. 1'\Ir. CoRSER: Of course, we must be trodden

und,,r the ground.

Mr. KI:'\JG: There .,·as no intention to cast any reflection on the Chair. If there was a reflection ca~t., it was. cast on the hon. n1en1-bcr for Barcoo, who interjected.

}it-. Cosn,LLO: That is what it "·as.

JHL KI?\U : rflte hen. n1cn1bcr for Burnett was not casting a refleciion on anyone. I do not kiHnv vdwt. is \n'one: \Yith the Tcrnporal'y Chai.man to-day. He seems to be neryy or looking for trouble, for at the very outset--

The PRE:\llER (Hon. '\V. Jl,lcCormack, Cairns): I ric, c to a point o£ order. .:Yly point of onlt>r is that on a n1otion for sus­pension there can be no discuesion. \Ye have to uphold the authority of the Chair, and the Chairman is the judge of that authority, and as to \Yhethcr his order was obeyed or not.

.Mr. KERH: If thC' Temporary Chairmal) has made a mistake, don't you think he shou~d rise to tho occasion?

Mr. 13RAND: This is the most disgraceful expulsion in any British Parlian1ent.

Mr. COHSER: I am standing for the right,, I have, and I am not going to apologise.

Mr. BRAXD: It is a most stupid expulsion.

Question-That the hon. member for Bur­!l·'"tt be suspended from the service of the House for the remainder of the sitting (Mr. Jl cCorm.ack's m ot:on)-put; and the House divi-ded.

In division-

Mr. KERR (Enoggcra): It is up to the Chairman to put this right.

::\lr. BRA~D (Burrwn): l'ure Moscow tactics.

Mr. Barber Bedford Druce Bu!cock Cn rter Collins

., Conroy Cooper, F. A. Cooper, W. Dash Dunstan Ferricks Foley Gledson Hanlon Hanson

A.n:s, ~1.

Mr. Hynes .Tones

, Larcombe ,. LleweJyn , Lloyd , McCorrnack , McLachlan

Mullan ., O'J{ptfe

r~ase Hiordan

, Ryan, H. J. ·weir \ViJson

, Winstanley

Tellers: 1-:t:r. Irn e ar.d l::Ir. Bnkock.

111r. Brand.]

1326 Rural Fires Bill. [ASSEJ\IBL Y.] Rural Fires Bill.

Mr. BarnC>s, G. P. jj Ea rues, W. H.

Bell , Brand ,. Clayton

Corser , Coste!lo

Deacon , Ethva.rds , E1phin:.tone

Fry , Kerr

Xo1·S, :tJ.

lUr. T{ing , Logan

}1axwe!l li oore Peter~on

, Hu· >ell, H. l\I. Sizer

,, ~wayne

Taylor Walker \Varren

'J'ell.,·s: .\fr. l:rnntl hllll .Jir. Ke r,

~Ir. Ihrt '2Y ,, Sn:i'll ·

PAIHS.

J.Ir. K l-n Rn·i:iell. rr. A.

Resoln·Ll in th' affirmatiYc.

::\lr. CORC\ER thereu110n left the Chamber amid Oppcsition . cheers I' ~1nd cries frorn GoYernn1ent men1bors Ot "Going, going) gone."

R CRAL FIRES ~ILL.

REsUoiPTro:-~ oF Co~DIITTEE.

{Jfr. n·,ir, )faryborOU(Jh, Ollf of the lJ'LnC[ of 'l'emporar.11 Chuirmtn. in the chair.)

Question-That the Chairman's ruling bo disagreed with-stated.

Mr. LOGAN (Lockyer): It is rather an extraordinary thing that the hon. member for Gngory should adopt similar tactics to those so often adopted by the Leader of the Governn1·ent in his endcaycur to preYent dis­cussion by the Opposition. It is generally rec)gnise·d in the British Parliament that the Opposition are quite within their right> in n1oYing an atnendrrwnt on any n1otion, and it is a matter for the Go,.-ernrnent whether they accept it or not.

The PRD!JER : It is for the Chairman to deci·de whether an amendment is in order or otherwise.

Mr. LOGAX: I am supporting the motion "That the Chairman's ruling be disagreed with." The amendment is quite rdevant. and was moved in good faith. As the Bill relates purely to State forests, the name " The Crown Timber Preservation Act " is certainly a more suitable one than " Rural Fires Act."

The PREMIER (Hon. iY. McCormack. Cairn.s) : If this amendn1ent is what nll the trouble is about, I am astounded at the Opposition taking up the attitude they have done. The amendment could be ruled out of order on the ground that it is merely an attempt to cast ridicule on the Bill before the Committee. I am astounded at the Oppo· sition taking up euch an attitude on an amendment like this. It provides for the omission of the words-

" The Rural Fires Act of 1927. and shall come into or>eration en a date to be fixed bee the Governor in Council by proclama· tion published in the ' Gazette.' Such date is hereinafter referred to as the commencement of this Act"-

and the insertion of the words-" The Crown Timber Preservation (at

the expense of adjoining landholders) Act of 1927."

Whoever heard of the title of a Bill being amended, at least at this stage, because it

[1¥11·. Logan.

comr•3 before the House later on for a ·definite deci~ion? Surely, \vhen n1cn1bers of the Oppo,ition put forward such an amendment as that, it mmt be regarded as purely frivolous!

::\Ir. BRA:\D: That is what the Bill means.

T;1e PRE::\1IER: The hon. member may thinlc so. At the time the hon. member for Burnt•tt \YHS reported, I had sorne diffidence. ~t-~ I c11d not know v;,-hut the row \Yas about; h1 'f this is the basis of the row, then the Orl'o-.:-ition are in an extraordi1~ 1ry position. TheY nrc not on]v out of order, but the'/ nre p llr) bl~, 1nisusin~g· the rules of the I-fcuse. 1 \Yond r, :l1Ir. \Ycir, that you CYCH al]o,-,·ed 1 di· cu;3~ion on the n1atb?r. Tho llLlendJnent i;3 .inlply an attc1npt to ·cla<2c th:_: Bill. There is no objection to deriJing the Bill in [I rgurncnt, b:tt to put up a defence th:1_ t their ri: .. d:t:;;. lwYe b::0n t ,ken a-..vav b•c·~tL~e thev ar\5 nOt allo1Ycd to niOYC an anlCndtnent like~ that f~1lly i:lnqratrs the mentality of the Oppcsi­t,oll.

C)w>·tion-That the Temporary Chairn1an's rulin£'.' be disagreed with (.,lir. Corstr's 1:1 ,,tiur.)-put; and the Committee diYided :-

Mr. Barnrs, G. P. ,. Barnes, \'f a.

BeU Brand Clavtnn Costello Deacon

, Edwards , Elphinstone , Fry

Kerr

AYES, ~2.

Mr. King , Logan

l\Iaxwell Moore Peterson

, Russell, H. ~I. :;::izer

n Swuyne , Ta.ylor

Walker "\Varren

Tellers: Mr. Logan and Mr. 'Y~dker.

~Ir. Barh··r Bedford Bruce Bulcock c~~rter Collins

,. Conroy , Cooper, F. A. ,, Cooper, W.

Dash Dunstau Ferrick~

., Foley Gledson H2.!::.lv:u. Ha.uson

SOKS, 31.

Mr. Hynes .Tones Larcombe

,, Llcwelyn Lloyd

.. McCormack McLachlan Mullan O'Kcefe Pease Pollock Riordan

, Ryan. H .• T. 'Vilson

., Winstanley

Tellers: :.\Ir. Hanson and llr. Ric;rJan.

An:~.

::'Jr. Kelso

PAIRS.

, Rm·sell, \Y. A.

X m·"· ~!r. ~I:-t:.tler.

,. ~mJ.h,

Resolved in the negative.

Clause 1 agreed to. Clause 2-" lnt, rpretation "·-

'\Ir. S"\YAYNE (Jlimni): I beg to move the following anH:ndment: ~-

" On lino 16, page 2, after the word­' ::,lash'

insert the word-• trash.'

i\Iy object is this: Since you have ruled a preYious amendment. cut of order, JY1r. \Veir, and your ruling has been upheld. we must tu.ke it that the whole question of applying this Bill to rural lands is loft open. and, that being so. it is our duty to make it as complete a3 po5sible. I have in mind the prevention of incendiarism. "\Ye all know that in the

Rural Fires Bill [25 NOYEl\IBER.] Rural Fires Bill. 13:27

-sugar industry at certain times very heavy lo:''J is caused through ,,;ilful ftring, a11d tLtsh is sornotimcs th3 rnc:dium u:::ccl. I do not think 1 am called upon to explain how-perhaps it \YOtd(1 be as well not to c•xpluin how at th1s stage-but tra:::h is used as the 1ncdlun1 by '' hich the £re apv3,relltiy starts hotds. nfter it~ originator has set it alight.

Mr. BRUCE (Jic muly): I am surpi'iced at .the hon. nleinbcr in n1oring th1s atneudiJlent. lt wou~cl Lring .. trash )'-th~; waste fro1n :->: 1 gar-ea!:c~under the heading of ·· inflanl­lltable 111:-.torud," thus bringing it witl1in the i.:p,_'ratioa of clau~e 6, '' hicll says-

'• -='";o vcrson shall, bcLrecn C"; ilrs' tLt)'

vf JulY in a11v vear a11d the tl1irt ·-1irst t.' -, v oi J anua~r ~ in the foJlo1:irHL: ~Year, lig1H, or caLl'3e to be li.ghted, er n;ai;1tair1 ot· ca:u.-;c to b;.; ruaint.uuu.l, a E1·c iol' the purpo:c oi cleaiiug luuJ bLnLl·lc, ::'{'l'Ub,, \ir11bcr'., trees, or any itJLHnln,llJlt: I11.:1tc•ruu ....

lf l~if) a1T;endn1cnt \YCl'C r 1rried .. it \Yould pl_·e~ vult the burning of car18 tra .h between 1st J uiy and 3L·t J arn:ary, except '1s proYid~._,d in ,the Bill.

[12 noon.]

_in carrying on C'anc-growi ng operations it ji) ubsolutelv n~ccssnrv that the trash s.hould be bth'ned to permit ;f the cuitivation of tho larJd; and in lntrodu.ci:ug this amcnchllC'Ht it i eYident!y the obj£>c.t of the Opposition t.o preYent cane farmer5 from burniug ofr their trash when necessary, k11owing full well that there >vould be a storm of protest from the fal'inet·s if such a. position were brought about; and they would be justified in pro­testing. Why " member of the Oppositiou ,vho clain1s to represent a sugar fanning elec­torate ~honld endcaYour to introduce thi,.; .ar:uendn1_ent, which ''·oulcl ha1nper the \vhole uf the sugar industry throughout Queensland. jr:'<. bC'yond my cornprehonsion, unl0ss it is ~ldinitely the object of the Opposition as a wl1ole to hamper the snga,r farmers in their .operations, causing thcrn to protest and thereby damag,ing the Government.

Mr. \VALKER: It is verv unfair of vou to sav that. The amendmeut was moved ·bv the ho'n. member for Mirani. •

:\Ir. BRUCE: Then I apply my remarks to ±hP hon. member for lVIirani, and not to the Opposition as a whole. The hon. gentleman has at all times since I hnse been in this Chamber claimed to be one of tho leading represenktives on behalf of the eugar indus­try; but his am0ndment would absolutely 1n·event the farnwrs frofl?. burning their trash in order to clear their fields for cultivation at a time when it should be bumt. There i' nothing in Queeneland that would be more hampering to the sugar farmer thau the amendment, if it were carried.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LANDS: That is <me reason why it was left out.

::\Jr. BRGCE: In movin;;- the amendment, the hon. member for l\lirani shows verv definitelv how far he has the interests of th';, Bi1gar £U'rn1ers a.t heart \vhen he is prcparL'-tl to use thc1n for po]iti{'al purposC's.

:\Ir, l\IOORE: Rubbish.

l\Ir. SWAYNE (Jlirani): The hon. member for Kenncd.y is over-anxious to nutk0 political capital ant of a perfectly bona fide amencl­nwnt, and, when I say that, I consid0r that I am l<>tting him off very lightly. I hase takP!l . a vpry lenient view o[ his rernark3, and might

have said that he encouraged others in burn­ing on canclields that which was not trash.

l\lr, BRUC'E (Itcnnuly): I rise toR point of onler. The hon. member for ll;lirani ha~ stated that I would help tho;;e people "·ho de ,jrcd wilfully to rnake fires in canclields.

Mr. l\Ioom: He did not say anything, of the sort,

l\Ir. BRCCE: He did. Let him sp< nk for hirnself. \Yh:lt 1 said wa:; that the HH1Clld­

!1lPnt., if carried, \Vould hamper tLu farllll'l':3

in (\11'1",! iHg 011 their indu::try 1.:. pn"'paring thL' l:.u1d fo1· tht' gro'lvir:g of cuu~"'.

}ll'. l(:·:Ru: \Yhat i~ the P~'int of ord:r?

:I'.Ii·. S\Y .... \.Y:\E: 'flle hon. lllClnlL'l' for Kcu­Ledy, ju ::'.lllli>Ort of hi:3 couteuticn, qLntccl cLn 3:...' 6.

Tl c• 'L::\IPllRARY CHAIR\JA::\: 01'dcr! Ld ntl' clt'Hl' llj) this point raised Ly the hon. HH--nllJcr for I\..c·llneJY, I did not heal· th,~ n•r:1ark, lnd, if the lion. n1Pn1ber for :\liraui ~nicl nnything oii'en6i\ e, he should withdraw it.

~.Ir. J\Ioo:-::.E: l{c c1.id 11ot use the words rC'CilllplaiJ:cd of Ly the hon. rncn1Lcr for I(cnncdy.

The TK\ll'Cll~ARY CHAIR.'IIA;'\": If the lwn. n10rnbcr f>Jr l\Iirani d£'nies having said anything oliensin'. then I ask tho hon. n1en1ber ior I{cinH:dy to acc'-•pt the ho11. nu'In­Lcr's denial.

I<.Ir. SWAY:::\E: \Yhat I did sa-: was tint I took a. rather lenient view 'in not saying :3-0.

l\1r. Hyt;Es: \Yhat is the inference?

l\Ir. S\VA Y:::\E: If I _,-ere endeavouring to make political capit~l I mig·ht have said so. 11y an1endineut will not in any 1vay lunnpcr those who desire to burn trash or cane in carrying out their vvork.

Clan'"P 6, on which the hen. n1en1ber relies, sets out t!Jat any penon lighting a fire must takt~ rea~onabie precaut:ons. 'Ve are al·ways f-HVlJosed to take reasonable precautions ,,..Then WL' bum trash or firebreaks, so the mere inclusion of the word "trash" will not affect clause 6 in the slip,htest. A person will still he a blP to burn trash, provided he utilises 1 he safpguards provided in other clauses of the Bill. \Ye know, unfortunately, that one lll(>thod adopted by incendiaries is to put a lightc•d candle amongst a heap of trash. It is so placed as to bnrn for hours before lighting the trash.

l\Ir. llYXES: 'Who does that?

l\Ir. S\YA Y:::\E: The hon. member may know more about it than I do.

Hon. J. G. APPEL : Hear, hear ! JVfl'. rlYXES: I know that many farmers do

that sort of thing and then blame the workers for it.

~Ir. SWX'll\E: If I liked to bo o!Iemive, I 1uight ask you how 1nany.

l\Ir. HYXES: What about the time ,·ou burnt your SU\Ymill down for the insurane~? O~POSITIOX ::\IE:uBERS: \Vithdraw! With-

draw and apologise: ·

l\Ir. Kil\G (Logan): I rise to a point of ordn. \Vhen the hon. member for Mirani y, as speaking, the hon. member for Towns­Yille interjected, "\Vhat about the time when vou burnt vour sawmill down for the insur­i:n:c0':" I 'ask, Mr. 'Weir, that you compel the hon. n1Pmber for TownsYi!lo to withdraw tho't' WClrd> .

JJlr. Iiing.J

132S Rtwal Fires Bill. [ASSE~IBLY.] Rural Fires Bill.

The TBJ\IPORc\RY Cl-L\IIDJAX: Order! I did not hc'ar the interjection. as at the time I \Yac, in consultation with the clerk a~,--ist.ant. ] f the hotl. n1en1ber n1acle such ft rcn1ark, thun it. is t>licn::::jvc. and I utust ask hin1 to \rithdra.\Y. ·

:\I1·. CosL=LLO: ..::\nd apologise !

J\Ir. BYKES (Tou•Jisl·illr): JI.Ir. Weir, the hm1. mew bcr for :r-.Iirani in the course of his retnar

~Ir. DE_\\ )~: Ycu rnadc that rcn1ark.

:\Ir. Cos·~LLO: \Yithdraw and apologise.

J\lr. HYXES: The hon. member for ~.lirani nuuJe the , iah'nrer.t that I knew rnorc about Cttnc fites--n-jlful car1c fires--than ho did. The inference \Ya·,, that, as people knc\v, I had been nn Ol'J;anis--..>r in the sugar areas­and a good organiser, too--·(intr,rjections}.

:\!r. IlEA CO)!: I ris2 to a point of order.

The 'IEMPOR \H Y CHAIK\1AN : Order !

Mr. HYC'\ES: Tlw inference of the hon. n1crnber for ~\lirani ·was that tlw \Vorkcrs at nr7 dictation, set. fire to the cane of tho c'anc farnwr~.

0PPOcn·co;,; =\lDIBERS: \Yithdraw! \Vith-dra w !

J\Ir. KEHH: Do the genllema.nly act.

The TK\IPOIL'l.HY CHAIRHAN: Order! I ~tatcd the case d0arh·. Tlw hon. n:en1bcr for Logan rai~cd the "point that an inter· jection by the hen. HL'lnber for Townsvilio wa:5 o.t'fcc1~in: t(J thl~ hon. rncn1ber for 1lirani. I a"'k the hou. member for Tmvnsvi!le if he 1uacl.e an oih:.1;-:;i·. o interjection and, if he adn1it~ aHtki_ng the intcijection; to be good enougn to wnhdnnv.

::llr. EYXES: I \Yiil admit that I am not sure th,rt. tho hon. member for .Mirani burnt the sa\v1nil1 dowu for the insurance.

GProsrTIOX Mnmms: Oh ! Oh ! With­draw! Apologie~!

The TI£2\[POR,\.H Y CHAIR::Y1AN : I ask the hon. member for Townsville to with­d,aw that remark.

OPPOSITION .!\llDIBERS: And apologise!

::I.Ir. HY::\ES: Jn deference to the Chair I withdraw. '

OPPOSITION ~1E~IBERS: And apologise !

The TEMPORARY CHAIRJ\.IA)J: The hon. member for 'l'ownsYi!le, in the course of his remarks, objected to an offensive state­ment by the hon. member for 11irani. I ask the hon. member for 11irani and hon. mem­bers generally to cease making offensive rerna.rks.

HONOcHABLE J\;1EMBEES: Hear, hear !

Mr. S\YAYNE (Jfimni}: In the course of my duty as a member of t.his Comnuttee, 1 am trymg to get an amendment into this Bill. 1\ hen the interruption aroBe I w!'s saying that 1t :vas poss1ble t~at there nught be a prosecutron for 1nccndransm and the omis­soon of this word "' trash " {night make the case for the prosecution more difficult. The present wording of the clause does not meet ex1shng needs. Legislation should Lf' tightened up in every pmsible way to check mch practices as I ha Ye mentioned and to assist in pro('uring 'conYictions ' again~t offenders. 'l'hat is all I had in mind in movmg my amendment. The hon. member for I<;ennedy, refe:-ring to clause 6, a-rgued that Jt would be Illegal to have legitimate

[Jlr. Hyncs.

rano fires between 1st .July and 31st January, but, if the hnn. member will look at sub­clause (u ), he 11·ill find this proviso-

" L-.-nlc>Ss-(·r) IIc takes rousonablc precautions

ngaiu:,t the po •,iblc f'11reacl of iirc l ='~·TOlHl the' botLldaric:-) of his land L:T lH'OYiding !ircbrcaks \Yhcrc IH'ecs~ :o;ary, or <s n1ay be 111'C3cribcd."

That bcinfl so, I clo not ·· ·,e any objection to· ihc insert1on of the \Yord "trash."

2\lr. BRUCE (Tecnncrlp): While admitting that there h::tYe been malicious ca.nc 11res, I ihiLk tlk numbct· is snudl. The insertion of the word "tr.osh.'' as proposed by the lwn. 1ncmbcr for :\lirani. will not saYo the fanner 1nnch in this clir:Ction, because it js 1vcll knO'.Yll that n1ost malicious iirc-s arc lit Su rotk. The hon. member did not rertd pro­YJSO (6.} to cbusc 6, ·.':hicb reads-

(1,) Ho has deliy. red . . . to each O'>\TllPr ... of all adjoi!lin; land or b·tiJd~Ilg;:; ... notice jn ·writing of }::i3 jntention to burn cff \Yithin tl!c :-:necocdir~g sc\~enry-L·.·o hours follo-;y­irg expiry of his notic '."

If the word "trn~d1" \verc introcluC',..:-d in 1ho tll1 fillitioD 0£ '• inflmntna,blc n1atcrial." the c.' ne farmer, could not possibly carry on und0r clause 6. As the representative of a sngnr con~' itttf'nc:_-, I prDtest against the alll('Ilthncnt, \Yhich "\Yould bring the cane fanncr-3 under chuse 6, and in tho~e circurn­"L ·ncc3 ihcY could not carrv out their work. It mnst be 1-r.membrrod thn.t' cane farmers are not only

1 close \o big ccntn:s, but th~ro a~~o

-~ -~nv llWCC'::i (tt.. \"(Jt,, d to ca,ncgro\\ .. mg 1n \\hieh onlc th" mill is situated, and ihe a pp lie rtion of the regulations as sought to be­amended by the hon. member would hamJ1Cl' thc.·sc people considerably. I ask the hon. rw,ubcr to rcrrcl the definition in conjunc1 ion with clause 6, and. whilst I ha.ve no desire to cast any rellccti01i upon him, I think he "·ill admit that the amclldmcnt would ha Ye th8 distinct etfecl of making cane-farming almost impracticable.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA::\D& (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): I quite agree with t]1e reasons advanced by the hon. mem­ber for Kennedy, and I cannot see any necessitY for the amendment. The hon. mem­b·'r for ·Mirani bases his argument in supyJOrt of the amendment on cases of incendiarism. He says that damage may take place throush some person wilfullv setting lire to trash, Such cnsos as that' are dealt with by the· Criminal Code, section 463 of which reads-

" Any person who wilfully and unhw­fully sets fire to any of the thing& follo·.ying, that is to say-

(a) A crop of cultivated vegetable producB, whether standing or cut;

(b) A crop of hay or grass, whether the natural or indigenous product of the· ~oil or not, and whether under cultiva­tion or not, ard whether standing or cut;

(c) Any shnding trees, saplings, or shrubs, whether indigenous or culti­vated;

(d) Any heath, gorse, furze, or fern; is guilty of a crime, and is liable to imprisonment with hard labour for four­teen years, with or without solitary confinement."

Rural Fi1·es Bill. [25 NovE:I1BER.] Rural Fi,·es Bill. 132!}

I would also like to point out that the Act will oni:· IJ~ applied to any rural district that rnay be lJl'oc:htirncd, and it is not intended to proclaim it in districts where it is likely to interfere with industries.

Mr. \YARRE::-.1 (.llurrurnba): While not supporting the amendment, I think the hon. member for Kennedv found a "n1are's nest." I do not think 'the amendment would ha..-e a disastrous effect on the canegro'."yer, and I do not think the hon. member for :v1irani moved it for any political purpose; but I do think that the fewer the indus­tries brought undc,· this Bill the better it will be for the State. The amendment is really a mistake, as the cane farmers have been getting on very well. The damage done by cane fires, whether wilfully or accidentally lighted, will not be mitigated by the Bill.

::Ylr. BRA::-.ID (Burrum): The .hon. member for :.\firani knows my views on this amend­ment. and I am in accord with the views expressed by the Minister. If j)ossible, I want to see the sugar industry rept clean outside the operations of this Act. \Vere it to apply, it would be impossible to carry on farming operations in the sugar districts. It would be impossible to burn cane because the farmer could not comply with the require­ments of the Act in regard to a firebreak.

A GOHRX:.UEXT J\1E}IBER : \Vhy?

J\fr. BRA2';"D: Because vou could not make a 15-foot f<rcbreak when 'burning off sugar­cane. It would be economically impossible. The hon. member for Kennedy maintained that, if the word "tr"sh" were inserted, it 1\ot!lcl he 11ossible in a rural fire district to burn off trash or sugar-cane at any time between July and December. I hope the hon. g·entleman is right, and I hope the l\!Iini~ter in chargr· of the Bill will make that statement in Parliament so that we shall know what the intentions of the Bill are. It may haYe far-reaching effects in the future.

1\h. BRCCE: The Minister made that state­ment while I was speaking.

The SK'RETARY FOR Penuc LAXDS: I made the statement that sugar areas need not bo proclaimed rural fire districts.

:Y1r. BRAl\"D: The :i1inister mu't realise, from the way the Bill is framed. tlnt some sugn e areas will cmr1e \vi thin a rural fire district.

The SECRETARY FOR PrBLIC LA:-;Ds: Not unless they are proclaimed.

Mr. BRAC\D: Still, there will be some sugar areas \Yhich will coine lvithin a rural fire district. I hope the ::\1inister will do his beet not to proclaim sugar districts. The hon. member for Kennedy claims that trash eau be fired \vit.hin anv rur,:d fire district between July and Deccmbc,r. Clause 6 specifi­cally states-

" 2\'o person shall between the first day of Julv in any vear and the thirh·-first clay of January' in the follo•xing- year light, or caus·e to be lighted, or maintain or cause to be n1aintained, a fire for rho purpose of clearing land of stubble, ~erub. tin1ber. trees, or any Inflammable materi.al, or for any like purpose in any rural fire district."

Jl.fr. BRFCE: That is what the amer .. dment is for-to make trash inflammab:c material.

1£27-4"

::\,Ir. BRAND: I am of opinion that the hon. member is wrong. As the Bill proceeds we rr.ty be able to get certain amendments \vhich \vill oYerconlc the difficulty vvith regard to the su"ar industrv. If a rural fires dis­trict is g,';'ing to apply to any section of the sugar industry, the ::\1inister will haYe a torrent of abuse heaped upon hnn by the workers in the industrv. 'They are the people who do the burning off so that the cane can be harvested. Unless we are careful, we are going to do away with the burning of sugar­cane.

::Ylr-. BRUCE (K cmwly): I cannot under­stand why hon. members or,osite do not see what I haYe pointed out. They propose to­amend the definition of "inflammable material."

Mr. BRAND: No. Mr. BRUCE : The words " inflammable·

material" are defined to include-

" Stubble, slash, scrub, timber, or matt·er liable to be consumed by fire."

Opposition members want to include trash under that hea·ding. Clause 6 deals with restrictions covc1~ing inflan1n1able n1aterials. If hon. members opposite were keen in the interests of the sugar farmers, they would not have moved this amendment to bring trash in as inflammable material. The amendment will have the effect of handicap­ping the sugar £arn1er.

Mr. DEACON (Cunninglwm): The desire is only that the sugar farmer shall take rea­sonable precautions. I£ the sugar farmer were allowed to burn trash \Yithout taking the precautions pro;·icled for in the Bill, he wo;Jld be priviteg-c•rl in con1pari~oh with the ordinary farmer. Why should he have any special privilege? Why a.llow a sugar farmer· to light a lire withcut gi.-ing notice to his neighbours? If ti1e l\Jinistc'· wants all farmers to give notice to their neighbours. when thPy are going to burn off, why not. include the sugar farmer? It might happen that one sugar farn1cr n1ight \Vant to burn and anothe1· ;uga.r farme1· next door might not.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOt:R A:-;D IXDt:STRY: They burn aln,ost every <lay.

:Hr. DEACOI\: If I understand the hon. member for Kennedy aright, he thinks that any sugar farmer should be allowed to burn whenever he likes without considering his neighbourc; or without taking precautions. \Vhy should he ? So far as I can see, there is no reason why the sugar f1.r1ner should have this priYi lege. Can the JI.Iinistcr tell me why he should be placed in a position of privilege? That is what is going to happen,. because under this Bill the ~.ugar furrner could light a fire wher>eY,'r he liked.

The SECrtEr.\RY FOR L-IBO'LR Ac.;D IxDl:STRY: If he is not in a rural fire district.

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC LAXDS (Ho!L T. Duno3tan. (/ !J ·ulz;i ( ) : So far a::) I ca.n understand the ai'gm~1ents of t.he Opposition on this Bill, thE':' cle.in1 to be speah:ing in the intcrc3ls of the farmer \Yho wants to burn. o!f. I would like to point out that the. pro­Yisions of the Bill will apply only to. such rural fire districts RS mav be proclaimed, which means that it will' be applied only lYhere th,, careless use of fire in rural districts -uncontrolled fires and burning off-may cause danger, and where, therefore, there is·

Hon. T. Dunstan.]

~330 Rural Fires Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rural Fires Bill.

a public ncccC'ity and a public demand for its opcratiou. In that case a fa.rmer burnmg oft will have to take the preeautwns laid down in the Bill for the, protection of his neighbours. I exphincd all that on the "econd reading of the measure, and I ernpha:s­ised that it would only apply where there was public nece;;sity for it. Let me draw_ the attention of hon. members to the provisiOn ,Ill clause 3-

•· Such district shall be called a ' rural fire district,' ai'd may comprise the whole or anv division or part of the area of a local • a.uthority, or may comprise the ,,-hole or anv divisions or parts of the areas of several local authorities. The Goyernor in Council may in like rnanner alter the boundaries of any su~h district or may abolish any such district."

Mr. KING (Logan) : I ·would just like to -express the opinion tha.t ~t appears to me .that so far as the farmer IS concerned, It IS

imm'aterial whether this word is there or not. The definition of "inflammable material" is BO drafted that the term is made to mcludc .anv " matter liable to be consumed by fire." So" far as I understand the object of those who are interested in the sugar industry, it js to keep sugar holdings outside the opera­tions of the Act.

At 12.3D p.m., The CHAIRMAN (::\Ir. Pollock, Gregory) took

.the chair.

Mr. KI~G: That will not be achieved by inserting the word '' trash " in the. defini­,tion clause. The only way to deal with the matter, as the Minister explains, is to h'!'ve wise administration of clause 3, enabling rural fire districts to be proclaimed. 1 .expect that the hon. gentleman will give effect to his E!Xpressed statement this morn· ing, and that, so far as possible, sugar areas will be excluded from the oper .. twns of the Act-. That being so, it is absolutely immaterial whether the word " trash " IS

placed in the interpretation clause or not.

Mr. WARREN (JiuJ'I"llmba): I quite agree with the Deput~ Leader of the Opposition .that the meaning of the clause is not altered bv the insertion of the word '' trash." If a n!an burnt benzine, he would be considered as having burnt inflammable material, and the Bill would apply in his case as much as in the case of a person guilty of burning any -of the material specifically mentioned in the .definition clause.

The SECRETARY FOR Pc:BLIO LA:t\DS: vVhy not 1vithdraw the amendment I

Mr. \YARRE::\': The Leader of the -Opposition has raised the vital question of whether cane farmers are to be subject to the -operatior>s of the Act. I represent sugar-cane area,, but I alw represent other farming areas, and. if the sugar farmers are to be exempt from the Act. then I will expect the Go.-ernment to exempt other farmers, too.

Mr. HYNES (Town,, l'illc): If the amend­ment is accepted, it amouuts to an intima­tion to the Minister by the representatiYes of the sugar districts that the-: or the farmers in the sugar districts, a;~ desirous -of being bwught within the scope of the Act.

J\.Ir. Sw_\YXE: ~o.

Mr. HY:--;-ES: The niinister has informed us that it is not his intention to issue procLunations bringing sugar districts within -tlw operatiom of this Bill. That is a very

[Hon. T. Dunstan.

r, cr.siblc propo:;al. Anyone con V('l'sant with t.lw conditions apped1ining to the sug-ar indu~try knows that. it is absolutely impos­bihh• to make this meawrc' applicable in that industry. Take the 1lossnlHll ~ugar district as an example. :'\early the whole of the cane that is harvested in the :\Imsman area is burnt cane-no cane being cut out groerl. rThat neccs3itatcs burning every second night, ar1d, if flr('breaks have to be provided, and the operations of this Bill were to apply, the farnwrs would be harassed, the canE-cutters 'vonld be hara~sed. and the pro­ducen in the sugar inclmtr:; would be sub­jected to an nnnccessary 01nbarrrrssn1ent. i£Yery fanner \Vhen burniu.-r his trash usuallv takes the necessary precaution of seeing that the fire does not sprt'acl. He im·ariably has sufficient labour tll sec that it is carried out in a proper '\Ya.y, and that. there is no chance of a runa,vay fire, bPcause in n1any easPs he would suffer ruination if a fin' got away . There is every incentive for hh seeing that every precaution is taken.

As this amendment comes from the repre­sentative of a sugar-growing district. we can only accept it as an intimation that the sugar farmers are reallv anxious to come within the scope of the ·Act. 'rhat is not so. I speak with some authoritY, as I was born and reare-d in a sugar district and know thP people very well. The Minister informed the Committee that it was not his intention to issue a proclamation bringing sugar districts under the scope of the Act, for the reason that it would be objectionable so to apply it. Yet here we have the spec-tacle of the hon. member for l\1irani, who poses as the repre­sentative of the far1ners and sugar growers, intimating that he is desirous of bringing them within the scope of the Act.

Mr. KI~G (Logan) : Tlw hon. member who has just resumed his seat has absolutely mis­stated the position. The action of the hon. member for Mirani has been justified, and time has not been wasted. for we now have an assurance from the :Minister. The hon. member for Townsville cvidentlv did not know an~·thing about it. •

Mr. HYXES: I did.

1\Ir. KE\G: Then he must have got the assurance in caucus. The assurance of the Minister that the Act will not be enforced in a sugar district. if it can be avoided, is quite satisfactorv to the hon. mPmber for :\Iirani. '

The SECRETARY FOR PenLK LAXDS : Or in any other district unle~s there is ~OI!lC neces­sity or demand for it.

l\lr. KI~G: \Ye have that assurance now: ~o. as I said, the tln1P taken OYf'r thP nrnt•ncf­ment has not been wasted.

Amendment (Jir. Swaync) negatived.

1\Ir. BELL (FaRsijcrn): I beg to move the following amendment:-

"On line 3, page 3. after the word­• includes,"'

insert the word-' inflammable.' ''

In: this rltnlse tho _definition of ': scrub" is n~ry wid13 and include~ aln1ost eyerything·. It l:;1cludes plant:;; anJ undergrowth of any kind. vchetlwr alive or dead; and the :\Iini:;;ter 1nust rccogni~e the rc:l.sona.blf'n('3S of inserting the word ·· inflarnn1abic.n lion.

Rural Fires Bill. [25 NovEMBER.] R•<.ral Fires Bill. 1331

·members will see the reason for the amend­ment by turning to clause 22, which reads·-

" Any person who wilfully or negli­gently~

(d) Throws down, lets fall, or places, anv light.·d match, cigar, wbacco, or cigarette, or lights or maintains any fire within one hundred yards of stacks or standing crops, or within ten yards of any growing crop, stubble, scl'ub, or felled, brushed, or ringbarked timber land awaiting a running fire, or between the first day of July in any Year and the thirty-first da.y of January in the following year, does such act within o:1e hundred yards of the boml­dary of any State forest, national park, or tirnber reserve ; ·'

·will be subject to certain penalties, namely, a fine of £50, or six months' imprisonment. Aftel' the passing of this Bill all State forests will bef'ome rural fire areas under the ~-\et. It is l'ather drastic to provide that a person shall be subject to this penalty if he drops a cigarette on a cabbage patch, for in this \nde definition of the term '· scrub " a -cabbage patch could be included. This would not be inflammable matter. The insertion of ,the word " inflammable " in the definition will improve the Bill. I urge the Minister to accept the amendment, as it will not detract from the Bill in any way, and will protect people in rural fire districts from uny undue risk. It is rather unfair that a man, simply for dropping a cigarette into ·wme non-inflammable material, should be ,ubject to such severe penalties.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS .(Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): If the hon. m<>mber will look at the Bill, he will see .that the definition of "inflammable material" includes " scrub " ; so that the insertion of the word "inflammable " in the definition of " scrub " is merely a redundancy, and has no application to the case mentioned by the hon. member for · Fassifern, therefore the nn1endment is unnecessary.

Mr. BELL: But scrub may be green.

Mr. MOORE (A.ubigny): The Minister has made a ri·diculous suggestion. First of all, .ihe definition of " inflammable material " includes " scrub " ; but the definition of "scrub " does not include " inflamrnable 111 a terial.''

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:s-DS: But " sc~ub" comes under the definition of "inflammable material."

?\Ir. MOO RE: The definition "scrub" includes "trees, etc., whether al!Ye or dead.'' It appears to mo that the Minister is merely obstinate. Instead of making the clause clear and definite, he is prepared to allow a posi­tion to arise that, if the question is raised in a court of law, the decision will be given not in accord w1th what is in the hon. gentle­man's mind to-day but strictly in accordance with the letter of the definition. Any judicial bodv considering the matter would find that the" Bill defines '· scrub" as "trees, etc., wlwthcr alive or dead."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: And the dd\nition of "inflammable material" in{'ludes "scrub."

:\Ir. MOO RE: But it does not say " inflam­mable scrub." Seeing that the amendment will preyent ambiguity, I seo no reason ,vhy

the :\Iinioter-who did not draft the Bill­,hould not accept it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS : If the hon. member \vould be reasonable, he would ha Ye some an1encln1cnts accepted.

:\Ir. ;\IOORE : Is it not reasonable to ask that a clause shall state what is desired definitely aud distinctly?

The SECRETARY FOR l'l.:BLIO LANDS : I have nv objection to the amendment except that l thiuk it is unnecessary aucl redundant.

.'\Ir. ?1100RE: It is not unnecessary, uecame Acts of Parliament are not inter­p;·etcd by what is in the mind of the }linister ut the time of passing, but solely on their language. To ~ay that ·• scrub" include:3 •· trees. etc .. ,,-hether alive or dead," may mean anything. So that the definition may be unambiguous, the amendment moved by the hon. member for Fassifern should be accepted.

}lr. KII'\G (Louan): In supporting the amendment-which is a most reasonable one -I think the Minister cannot consistently refuee to accept it. ·whilst the hon. gentle­man mav intend that "scrub" shall be con­sidered as " inflammable material" through­out the Bill, he certainly <loes not provide tbat in the measure itself.

The SECRETARY FOR PcDLIC LAKDS : I have no objection to the amendment.

Mr. Kii'\G: That is all we ask. On an interpretation of the statute the point would anse, and it might give rise to a very lengthy legal argument.

Mr. PETERSON p-,,rmanby): Do I under­stand that the Minister is prepared to aceepL this amendment?

The SECRETARY FOR PlBLIC LAKDS: Yes. OPPOSITION ME}IBERS.: Hear, hear ! Amondment (Jfr. B(l/) agreed to.

Consequential amendment in the definition of •' ~tu!Jble_." on line 17, page 3, agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to. Clause 3-"0peration of Act; Constitution

of districts "-agreed to. Clause 4-" Appointment of Rural Fires

Board"-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:\'DS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): The hon. member for Mira.ni has circulated an amend­ment providing for the appointment of dis­trict lire boards by the Governor in Council, one-hnlf of tho members of such boards to be primary prodilcer;;, and, further, that in sug-ar districts a.t least one member of the board shall be chosen by the mill suppliers' committee or committees. I haHJ no obj"> tion to the constitution of a district hres comn1ittee.

The proposed new clause which has been circulated b-.· the hon. member for :\lirani is indefinite 'awl vague and does not set out the duties of the propos,ed boar-d. As an altemative I would ouggest the following an1enchncnt :-

" After line 32, page 4, insert the fol­loo;,ying subclause :-

{3) The Governor in Council may appoint in any rural fire district a standing committee consisting of thret_• pers .. nb. The fire warden for such di~­trict shall be appointed chairman of such 3tanding committee.

Hon. T. Dunstan.]

1332 Rural Fires Bill. [ASSEM:BL Y.] Ruml Fires Bill.

Anv shnding committee so appointed shall- co-operate 'vith the board in the administration of this Act and shall exercise such powers and perform such duties as may be delegated by the J'dinister or as may be prc:ocribed.

The provisiom of subsection 5 of this section shall, mutatis mutandis, apply to such standing corr1n1itte(h."

That alternative claus·e will go a long way to meet the desires of hon. members opposite.

Mr. SlY AYNE (Jiirani): As the new clause suggested by the 11inister seems to cover very much the same ground as the amend­ment circulated in my name, I will waive my amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gyrnpie): Then I formally move the amendment I have just read.

Amendment UVIr. Dunstan) agreed to. Clause 4, as amended, agreed to. Clause 5-" rlppointrnent of officas"­

agreed to. Clause 6-" Restriction on the lighting of

fircs"-

Mr. SWAYNE (llirani): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On line 11, page 5, after the word­' notice'

insert the following paragraph :-' Provide·d that the notice herein

required may, by Order in Council pub­lished in the " Gazette," be varied with respect to all or any districts and in all or any particulars, or otherwise as mav be deemed advisable.' "

In view of the varying conditions existing in r·egard to the holdings in different dis­tricts, there should be some elasticity in the period of notice. The ::\Iinister admitted on the second reading debate that difficulties nlight arise, and he u-..,._ld the '\Vords, " You cannot have it both wa,-s.'' \Yhat I have in mind is thAt in cio~ch·-scttled districts where long not":cc is not required the local committee should have power to say what the notice shall he. Similarly, in other districts where a longer term is dcsirabk. it should be equally within the power of the local committee to fix the period. I think the Minister re cog-nises that it is desirable to ieave the control of these m~t· ters as much as possibk to those who possess knowledge of what is required in each district.

'fhe SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gym pie): I quite agree with the amendment, and I accept it.

Amendment (Mr. Sw.<ync) agreed to. Cl a use 6, as amended, agreed to. Clause 7--'' J?irPs :'n timber Tf<:erves, etc.,

held nndcr lease, etc."-

The SECRETARY FOR FCDLIC LA.:-ms (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gyn' pir): I understood that an an1cndment was to be moved to omit all the' words fron1 and i'1duding "itnd" on line 20 to and including " thereof" on line 26. I <tm agreeable to omit those words. but I propose also an addition. I therefore beg to moYe the following amend­ment:-

" On lines 20 to 26, page 5, omit the '''ord~--

' and any fire "hich may break ant on any timber res0rve, State foreot,

[Hon. T. Dunstan.

or national park so held, occupiect,. or used, shall be promptly and properly e>:tinguishcd by or at the ,_:o~t of tbe person or persons so holding, occupying. or using such tin1 her rl sPrve, State forest, or national park or any part thereof'

and insert in lieu thereof the words-' EYery holder of such agreement,

lease, license, or permit shall be responsible for the protection from fire of the a rea in such timber reserve, State forPst, or national park in respect of ,,-hich such agreement, lease license, or permit has been issued, and shall protect it accord­ingly.'"

That means, of course, that the person hold­inrr the agreement, lease, license, or permit shall be responsible for putting out the fire on his own land only.

At 2 p.m.,

Mr. "WEIR (Maryborottgh), one of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the Chair­man in the chair.

Mr. DEACON (Cunningharn) : I suggest to the l\.Iinister that after the word " it ,. in his amendment he should insert the words-

''bv making all reasonable efforts and taking all reasonable precautions for that purpose."

It is possible in many cases for grazing a re as to include forest areas, and it would be an impo,sihility to carry out the obliga­tions sought to be imposed by the Bill. All that can reasonahly be expected of a man is that he shall take all reasonable precau­tions. and the Minister has sufficient powet· in the Bill to define what are reasonable precautions. I hope the Minister will adopt n1y suggestion.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I am prepared to accept the suggestion of the bon. member. but let us first create the blank in the Bill.

Amendment-To omit words on lines 20 to 26. page 5 ("llr. Dnnstan's amendrncnt) -agreed to.

Mr. DEACON (Cnnningham) : I beg to move the following amendment:-

' After the word-' it'

insert the words-. b,· making all reasonable efforts and taking all reasonable precautions for­tlu\.t purpo?.e.' "

Amendment (111r. !Jcacon's amc'ldment on Jllr. Jhwstan's amcndm nt) agreed to.

Anwnclment (Jir. Dunston), as amended, agreed to.

Clame 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8-" Pircs approaching timber· Trsr_ru~~, rtc."-agreed to.

Clause 9·~" Parr, r of fire u.:arden in ccr­t1rin casrR "-agree J tO. ·

Clause 10-·'Dutirs of 01cners and occu­pic,·s "-

::\Ir. ~IOURE (.-1u/Jin1"'!/): I beg to move th0 following a "nen'-hnent;-

" On line ~6, page 6, after the word­' land'

Rural Fires Bill. [25 NOVEMBER.] Rural Fires Bill. 1333

insert the words-' (3) Provide·d that any person desir­

ing to take advantage of the pro­visions contained in this sectwn shall in the prescribed manner notify every such other owner or occupier, and shall apply to the nearest 11re warden for an order calling upon such other owner . or occupier to effect a similar clearmg Dn his land. The lire warden, after inspection of the land in question, may issue such order as he thinks iit, if he is satisfied that the clearing Tequired can be done at a reasonable cost, taking into consideration the unimproved value of the land, that it is reasonably necessary that such cl~aring shDuld be effected, and that it will prove etfective as a means <>f fire prevention. Any mvner or occupier dissatisfied with any such <>rder of a fire warden may, in the prescribed mauner and within the prescribed time, appeal tD the court Df petty sessions having jurisdiction in the district, and such court may uphold, cancel, or vary the order Df the fire warden, and the decisiDn d such court shall be final and not subject to further appeal. Unless and until an Drder as herein pro­vided has been obtained and pro­ceedings on appeal have terminated, the provisions of this section shall be inoperative.' "

This clause is rather a drastic one. Its provisions might be all right, but there are -certain classes of country in which the clear­ing of a space of 15 feet on either side of the dividing fence might. not be of much advantage, and at the same time it might be a source of considerable expense to the individual concerned. unfortunately, in farming life, as in other walks of life, dis­putes often occur between neighbours, and it is possible for a neighbour to take advan­tage of such a clause as this to place on an adjoining landowner harassing conditions which might not be of much . value, and would be very difficult to undertake. We see that happening in many cases at the 1n-esent time. A disagreement or dispute arises over such questions as watering stock, and one neighbour feels it incumbent on him to harass his neighbour. He can harass him by serving a notice to clear a firebreak. The :man serving the notice might be a man well ·circumstanced, but his neighbour might not be so well circumstanced. and probably owns an area of 160 acres onlv of scrub land. It would be expensiYe for him to carry out the order, and, when he did carry it out, the break would not be of much help in 5topping a bush fire. 'l'here should be some amendment of the clause such as I have Dut.lined enabling the man served with the W>tice to clear to appeal to the fire warden or some other individual to decide whether the clearing is necessarv, and whether the notice has not been given out of spite. I ·Ui!l understand how such a firebreak would be effective in open, \Yell-grassed country; L•nt there is a lot of countrv in this State where such a f1rebreak wotJld not be of much adYantage. '\Vhen a bush fire gets a good start, it is nothing fo1· the flames to leap from 15 feet on one side of a boundarv Fl 15 feet on the other side. In such cases ti:c expenditure on a 15-foot firebreak

Y onld be of no benefit at all. As the dame

is framed there is no way for a landowner to a void such an expense after he has bee~1 ser;-ccl with a notice to clear. H1s responsi­bilitY commences with the receipt of the notice. The Minister should take into con­sideration the different classes of country, and permit a f1re war?e!' to h>;ve SOil,le say i11 the matter by perm1ttmg an mspectwn by him to see whether it is advisable to clear or whether the class of country can stand the expense. It is not only a question of value of the country, but we want to stop the fire from getting out of control and spreading to other d1stricts. In such cases the owner of a relatively small area of land should not haYo the whole responsibility of making effective breaks to check the progress of a fire unless it will be of some benefit to himself.' If the making of the break is going to be of benefit t<;> someon_e else, _and if the expenditure of domg so Will run mto a considerable mm of money-as it will in scrub countrv-som0 pro;-ision should be made onabli;;g a fire warden to decide whether he is in a position tD do it, and whether it will be effective after it is done. 'l'his clause only supposes that all the countrv is n1ore or less si1nilar and reason­ably ~asy to clear, and that, after it is cleared, it is going to be a reasonable fire­break. It is within the knowledge of the Minister that in some heavy scrub country a 30-foot firebreak would not be a certain protection, while it would also mean a con­siderable expense to the person who has the rotiee served on him. If he has not some means of protecting himself from the vagaries of a neighbour who may be better off than he is, he is liable w be placed in an unfortunate position.

The am<:>ndment proposed will in no way interfere with the successful operation of the pro;-isions of the Act, but will merely give a measure of protection to an adjacent owner of land the occupier of which has complied with the conditions set out in the clause. The clause is rather ambiguous, and requires read­ing two or thre<J times to get the exact mean­ing. I think it is placing a considerable onus and possibly expense upon an adjoining owner who, although receiving very little benefit himself, will be benefiting people some distance away. It may protect people whose property is further on from the land adjoining that in r·cspect of which notice is given, and if the provision is mere!} intended in that way, and a buffer area is being created, then the owner of the a·djoin­il'g land should have the opportunity of seeking outside opinion as to the application of the fire notice. If the Minister considers that the amendment goes too far, he might be prepared to accept that portion of it which permits the matter to be referred to the f1re warden before expense is incurred by the owner of land adjoining that referred to in the notice.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Oywpit): I think the Leader of the Oppmition knows that the pro­visions ·of clause 10 are alreadv the law !ll

the Careless Use of Fire Prevention Act, which has been in operation for years. How­e;-er, the amendment is a reasonable one, and I propose to accept it.

Amendment (Jlr. Jioorr) agreed to. Clause 10. as amende·cl. agreed to. Clause 11-" l'roreedinr;s w1der this A.ct

not to interjcrc 1C'ith right to ,,uc for com-1)' n~ution ior da maue b?J firc"-agrccd to.

Hon. 1'. Dunstan.]

1334 Rural Fires Bill. [ASSE~fBLY.] Rural Fires Bill.

Clause 12--" l'rohibition of further fircs"-

2\Tr. P8;TERSOX (Xormanby): I beg to :~·rn'(' tl1e fo1lo-..-,·ilJ arnendn1; nt :-

·'On lines 2 h 4, both indu•iYe, pago 7. omit the '"ords-

' adjacent to a liYe or dead stanrling tree or anv fallen tr0r~ or lo~r or an'· pFa·t _th~r,~of or other in~faunnablo nw ten al.

Th _ clan>e at prcocnt rccacls-.. ~\o pPr~on or pcrsOJH .. hall (bct\YPPll

the fint dn.Y of JulY in any vear and the :hirt~.'-fir~t (Ja:v cf .j anuary- ii1 the follo\Y­ing year) lig-ht or cause to be lightcJ. or 'l"'e. a cnrnp or other srnall fire in thQ ,-,p.'n air adjacent to a liYe or dead stand-1n·>: tree O"!_" any fallen tree f'r log or u;;:· purt 1hcrcof or other inflanunable 1!1UtC'rjal in any rural Tire d1strict, unless -.·ndl 11- l';_'Jll or prrsc ~1s attcn,ling an:, such fir::> shz.ll ; 1ear all i:lila1nn1tlbl--- nwtcria] fri)Ill aron:nd ~nch fi::t·e for a distanc0 of .;.ix fl•ct, or ~1s n1ay be prcscribc·d, or ~ha]] ( :\-f'r oYer and con1pletcly ex:tingui3h ~uch Arc bcfcE'C' t0n1porarily or per­lna:Jnutly 1-J.Ying it."

Tlv SECRETARY FOR I'C:BLIC Lie; DS : I will occC'pL the amencl1ncnt.

An1en{_llncnt agreed to.

='Jr .. PE'I'F.RSOX (Tormanby): I beg to n_ ~Ye the £ol1o-,ying an1cndn1ent: ~

.. On lino 7, pag.c 7, o:nit the \Yard­

' or'

where it oC'cur~ for the second ti1ue, and insert the \Vord~

'and.'"

I think the :Minister will agree that that ,,-ill m!'ke the clause read better and do away w1th a certam amount of ambiguity.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS : I accept the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amen<led, agreed to.

Clause 13-" Charcoal or lime burning"­agrecd to.

Clause 14--" Fire (langcr locality"-

., :Hr. \YA.LKER (Cooroora): I beg to moYo t,oc followmg amendment :-

" On line 42, pe.ge 7, after the word­• Act'

:scrt the folLwing paragraph:-' Th<' proYisions of thi ~ ~ection shall

b,, applicable tD the Crown and the ,-.,cryants .of the Cro\Yll with respect to uny .t1n1ber reser--re, State forest, Oi" natwnal park situated within •..:Ycr~~ such fire danger locality.' ~'

I thi1lk t:hat" js n reasonable a1nendn1ent, more 11arncularly now that the Stah• is realiv go1ng 111 for the grol'",-ino- of tin1 ber on a conl­mercial ba·is. }Jy ohje,;'t is to put th2 Crown on thr', .~_anlC footing as private people \Yho r11~y go 111 ff r the: sa1ne in~ustl",Y or adjaC'ent fanners ''+:o go_ !11 for 11runary production. The .-'-et \V!ll oul_v operate in such rural fire <hstncts as. mav be proclaimed, but this ~Ire us~~ pr,)Yldes for SJV cial danger lncaliti(·3, and the last paragra;Jh rea<ls-

" Any fire danger localitv shall be also dee:e2ed to be a rural fire district for the purposes of this Act."

[J'h. Pete1·son.

Tn make it quite plain clause 16 states-" For the purpos8s of this Act, nationaf

parks, State forests, and timber resen-es, and an~ rescne under any law set apart for the protcctioE of native fauna and anY s>inctuarY establisheci under the A,;irrtals and ·Birds Act, 1921 to 1924. shall b~, deemed to be fire danger locahhc;.

IrrespcctiYc of what districts may be pro­daime<l under the Act, these Crown rc,en-es will lw· rur:tl fire districts. Clauses 14. 15, end 16 di ck··e the esscntial purposes of th,_, Bill-the p;-otection of Crown timber reserves. It is neces,ary to do whateYer is possiuk iu this direction, but it is only just and fair that the Crown should bear its fair sharo of the r:x:pensc of anything nec£'3.,;ary for fire protce:tion. (;lause 15 makes the adjoining lando\'vners re~pon~iblc £or clearing whate· c e ,·-idth the boarcl mo.y ore! er; and, if the owner or occupier fails or neglects to comply with such order, the boa.rd may do the clearing and recover the expen-,e of such dcariug fron1 the O\Yne:.· of the land. State forests -belong· to the public, and, therdHe, there i.;; every justification fat~ the Cro1:vn spending a rcaso:1able amount of money for th{;'ir protccti211.

There is no jn:::tif1cation \vhateYer for n_.tk1n,; the unfortunate inJ.iyidua] 'vhosc lll'O­

pcrty happens to adj.ccn a State reserYc bear the \Yholc cost. of fire prot,t_,:;tion. He should ha;·(' no rnore l'C3IJOn~ibility than any other JLC1nfwr of the con1n1unity. In 1ny opinion, the CrmYn should take mea .urcs for tho t'rotection of it~; tirnber, and bhould therefore l>e induJed under the Act.

All round a State forest there are farmcro' boldings abutting, and beyond them pro­bably more farmcro' holdings: but the whole respollsibility is put on the farn1ers adjoin­ing the State forest reserve with regard to­t-ire prev0ntion. the expense of ·,,-hich unfor­tunately they way not be able to bear. It i~ not a question of nice, clean land and bnrning off a little grass or ploughing a fir· break; it is a question of cnorn1ous trees 4 Oi" 5 feet thick. We are going to ask the farmer whose holding adjoins the reserve to clear a firebreak at cnorn1ous expE'nse. 'vhile the Crown pays nothing at all. When the Crown enters into an industrY it should be 01' the same footing as the other fellow. I know that the GoYemmcnt have not been able to employ sufficient rangers during the past year to make firebreaks in co·operation with settlees adjacent to State forests owing to financial stringency; but, if they had done so, there woul<l not haYe b<>en the fires which occurred last year. So long as \VB

allo'' the forut rangers to go round these· particular areas not caring hvopencc for fires in their own area but onl;· looking nfter the rnen adjoining·, wo are not going to keep down iii·c,. This amendment will 1n1t the State on a responsible basis with regard to the controlling of fires.

Lr.st year the Government tried to put L!pon landowners t.he cost of what was called a w"tcr survey They also put the cost of the upkeep of hospihls on the man on the land.

:Hr. PEASE: The man on the land does not. pay all the cost of the upkeep of hospitals.

:\Tr. WALKER: All the particular costs I have referred to go on to the man on the land, and we an~ now going to put on him an additional cost in regard to burning,

Rural Fires Bill. [25 NovEe~mEn 1 Rural Firn Bill. l ~33.5:·

ekaring. or ploughing an enorrnous fire­ln'cak nndf'r the SUllC'l'Yision of an oflicer of the Forcotry Department. I:1 my district we have an enormous area of State forests and tirnbcr rcsrrves, and they are all of an t'xpensiYe cha1·actcr to clear. Apart from th< t, the farmer has a pretty rough spin in regard to State forests to-day. He has to cope '~Tith all the Yl•l'nlin, and, 'vhen he has <tppliecl to the department for wire netting ~o kL'CP bu:k the Ycrn11n, his request has llecu refused. There arc enormous growths oc lant.ana all around the edges of these fore:-<{ rcscrYcs dropving seed on the farn1ers' la11d, and c'Terything is of an inflammable character. I trn~t that, with this explana­t~on. the ~lini~t<:r will accept the an1end~ ment. because I think it is fair that the Cro"·n should b( ar its share of the responsi­bility ancl C'Xpcn~c of nutking firebreaks.

Th" SECHETARY FOR l'UBLIC LAJ.\:DS !Hon. T. Dunstc~n. (;ympic): I cannot accept th(' an1cnd11Jcnt b0c<tu~e it \YOuld be contrary to public: polic:/ to in1pose this obligation on the Crown tmckr tL' terms of an Act of Parl-ianlCllL --\5 the hen. rncrnber has nolntcd. Put. clau~.c· 14 nJU:'t bt"' read in conj~1nction Y;ith elan~c 15. \\hich £tiYPS the Rural Fires Hoard .anthori~ Y to r(•quiro the O'>'i'Ilf:'r or oecupicr of 1an.::l to do certain things to prP­;,·pnt tire. That lK·ing f-;O, 1 would Jjko to d~::'lll.'C the 1wn UlC'lllhC'r for Couroora as '' eil a::; 111. Jnbr _ cf the Cm11111ittce -;enerally thtt 11ot onlY \Yill the Crown do its ·~,hare in anythinf!; rcqujred to pl'<'Yeilt the q)1·c·ad of tire, a,; " ·u.-idccl for !Jy this Bill. but t.lrc·<:H1-. il1 our ~tatc fo~·c;;;ts and tirEb._r rl'SC'l'YC-:: the For·c~try Don_nl. is ·doing all it c:'ln in thi~ tlil·crtion. Last vcar, as hon. 1t10rnbcr~ \Yill Sl"'C b:'-' the ann1ull report~ over £2.00] wa~ :-.pc11t in 1naking firebr:._J.ks, fire­f!f.:·htiug. n11cl raking other fire precautionary llll'Hsure.;;. These rlau~es apply only t'J fire dangPr localities which may be proclain,cd by the l\Iini::;tel·, ancl the powc1 vl clv~l;1r1Hg- <1

clo~e scasoa v;ould only bo .::~xerciscd unclPr ('Xtreinclv ha.·:.lrdous conditions in ccriain period•. ·The whole point is that the Crown, haYing int1·oducecl this 11lCDSlHt\ and ha\·ino· ~hqwn a1rcady by 1ncans of the operatioL~ of the For- sn·~· Do:~rcl that it dcsin~s to take precautions, ,;·ill sec to it that it does its t'harc in protoeting State forc·,ts o,nd as far a::; po~t'iblc co-operating with the a·djoining owners in carl'yin;;:.. out the proYisions of the Bill.

::\Ir. KI~G u:au'rn): I r('grd that the ::\Iini:::tcr cannct ::.cc hi~ way to accept tho amendmcrt. I know the rule of public policy agains~ binding the Crown, bu~ there arc 111<ll1Y ::;,jn.lilal' cases \YhC'l'.! the Crown "lllT0nch~l~~ it~ lH'tro':{,LtiYc a.nd a:.;-ree··. to be bound bv _.\et> of Parliament. The Crown has . a YC'l}-~ i!nportant rr pon~lbility in con­nection w11h Its large areas of forest, timher reserves, and national parks, and the obligations in1po3cd lr,"' this Bill on other holders of la,;d "re fai;lv onerous. I do not sec why thC' Crown shoUld not agree to b! t'per·itically includctl. \Y c have the a-.~urance oc the MinistCi' that the Crmvn will volun­tarily bear its ~hare; but th0 vcrr fact of tlwt as~Pranc:: being giYen indicateS th:-t, in thC' cycnt of non-ob:-'CrYancc, tll8 Crow;:1 i.-; n·1t liable for penalties or daiuagcs. I think it is a pede :·tl~· foir amendment to move, and, il'S a n1attcr of courtes~: and grace, the Crown should agree to bear its share of the respc•:si­bility equal!~, with those on whom they dc•mc to enforce the provisions of the Bill.

:Hr. PETERSO?-;" (:Yonnanll!f): I can quit"" understand the attitude of the hon. member for C Joroora. Anybody tmvelling up th,, C\iorth Coast \cill readily appreciate the argu­ment that it is cnly fair that the Government, should tAke its share of the liability in regard to State forests. As it is, th8 position is sornewhat sirnilar to that of ~l :man 1.'\-ho­rC'fusc"J to insure his O\Vn house, but who, when it is burnt do\Yll. expPcts bls neighbou1 ~ to help him to b<'ar the loss. The Ministn­has to recog·nise that St1.tc fol'c.ts ar\~ a valuable asset of this State.

[2.30 p.m.] n"<,~ this Bill we an:~ h·vino· to presol'YC·

thc-'e assets; but is it a fa-ir ~hing that the prlvate h~ndowlH"lr adjoining these forost r"senes should have to obey the law by kccnincr his dPhris a11d other infia1111Uable rna{cri~l a\YUY fron1 his fence--and in other ',YD:YS t() confo.rnl to the law-wh0n the Cro\Yn is !wt compelled to carry out its part? It is onlv fair that if obligations are Imposed upon ·ono p,a-ty', they . s~ould be. imposed upo11 the orhc1· The ~Innster has 1ntn;nated that the department mtends v~luntarrl~ to canv out irs rut. That lS qmt0 all rrght so l~ng- a;;.; tho hon. gcntlcn1an is Secretary for Publjc Lands; but, unfortunately, ~linis­tcrs conw and go, and conrts mu~t decide on_l.v upon fact and poinLs of the la>Y. The Brll ,nccificallv statces th ;,t the Crown shall be f;·ec fnmi. a11y claim for damages arising fL"orr: -"et~ c'f negligence that 1night result in clisaster to adjacent landholders. The amendt.!cnt aitns at placing the liabilit.v upon tlw Crown aucl upon the l~rHlholders adjacent to the rcscrn.s. One mrght as \vel! clarm that. ,,-hpn a 1nan 1narries, he should acce_l!t r,o liabilitv. He has t0 take o;-er the ha­bilitv when be c11ters the ma.rriage 5tatc .. He 'is responsible for his wife and family, if he bas anJ~. Iu this case benefits are created on the one side. The people of the State, as a \vholc, rse to receive the benefit of tlw preservation of the forccts; but the landholder adjoining is called upon to corn­plv with the law, and practically to keep the State areas free from fire, if the State dDes not attempt to carry out the work. I do not think the amendment will inYolYe anv extra charge on the Cro\Yn, and, if the department ;ntends to do its part volun­tarily, then I cannot sec that the Government are going to lose anything. In. the _interests of the scttl,,rs concerned, I thrnk rt would be a fair thing for the Minister to embody in the Bill .. .,Jme protection to those people outside who have to bear the whole liability. I hopP the 1Linistor will see his way clear· to accept the an1endrnent.

Mr. DE.\CO~ (Crmninulwm): I regret that the l\Iinister lJas intimated that he can­not :tcccpt tbe amendment. lf the Bill is to be a :;;ucce~~- there mvst be a spirit of co-o 'oration between landholclers and the Cro,\·n. The n1rrc pa~ sing of legislation is not sufficieut. \Ye all know that very often legislation is not ob-.. crn'cl. \Yhen the Crown ne&;locts to ca.rry out the obligations that are imposed upon settlers the settler asks \Yhy he should be bothered conforming to the obligation,. in respect of his property. \Ye have seen that state of affairs in connec­t'on with the destruction of prickly-pear_ \Yhen the Cro\Yll allows Cro\Yn land to' become pear-infbtcd, whilst kt the same time imposing upou the settlers the obliga­tion of clearing- the penr, naturally the· settler asks, '' \Yhy should I clear my pear? ...

Mr. Deacon.]

!336 Rural Fires Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rural Fires Bill.

I ,,-ill do as I like." The Crown should meet the '"ttler. Let there be some indica­tion of a common interest. All that we ask is a fair deal between the two parties.

The SEcRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS : The Crown cannot be subordinate to the direction <:lf a board.

.\mendment (Mr. Walker) negatived.

Clause 14 agreed to. Clause 15-" Pou:er of Board"-

l\fr. \YALI{ER (Cooroora): I beg to move ;the following amendment:-

" On lines 1 to 5, page 8, omit the wcrds-

' and may recover the expenses of so doing from the owner· or occupier i':' any court of competent jurisdic­tion.

' J\.loreover, such owner or occupier failing or neglecting- to complv with such crder shall be guilty ·of an offence Lgainst this Act.'

and imert in lieu thereof the words-

' but subject to compensation for any damage done.' "

Ti1is amendment is similar in character to ·the one I proposed a few moments ago. ~There is, therefore, no occasion for me to repeat what I then stated. This is only a question of compensation. If the Crown secures protection from fire for its timber ir.tcrests, it should not do so at the expense .of the landowner. I do not oppose the right of the Crown to enter properties adjoining State forests for the purpose of making firebreaks ; but, if any damage is done in that proceoo, the owner or occupier should be in a position to claim compensation. The Government are trying to place the respon­sibility of making firebreaks to protect their timber areas upon the shoulders of the -owner or occupier of the adjoining land. The main objection that the Minister may -raise to the amendment mav be based on his right to e1_1\;er the adjoin1ng propert;,;. I honestly thmk the Government should have the right to go upon any man's property and help to put out any fire that menaces a State forest. Up to the present time they do not possess that right. I do not intend to oppose that right; but is it a fair thing to ask the landowner or occupier to pay for the expense of any firebreak which is going to benefit the Crown? If so, then that owner or

·Occnpier, who mav have onlv a small area a few hundred yards long and a similar di-s­tarwo in dc11Lh adjoinina- a forest area mav be ruined. The GoYern~nent could rui:b. him by a heayy claim for compensation or a -claim for clearing the land.

The TEMPORARY CHAIRl\IIA"': I do not propose to accept the amendment for tlw reason that it.providcs for an expencli+,nre not authorr,ul rn the message from the

·Governor.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, G!fmpie): I am quite prepared to agree to the omission of the following pal agraph, which forms part of the amendment the hon. member wished to :.n1oYe--

:' _::,Joreover, st~ch O'\vner or occupier fa1lmg or 11eglectmg to comply with such order shall be guilty of an offence against thia Act."

[Jh. Deacon.

MY. WALKER (Cooroora): I am only too plca"cd to meet the Minister, though I bow to your ruling. Mr. \Yeir. I beg to move the following amendment:-

"On line' 3 to 5, page 8, omit the following paragraph:-

Moreover, such owner or occupier failinr: or neglecting to comply. with .,uch order shall be guilty of an offence against this Act."

Amendment (J.fJ·. 1r alker) agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 16-" Jl,·ational parks, etc., deemed fire danger lonlitics "-

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS Hon. T. Dunstan, (/ympic): l beg to move the following amendment:-

" On line 8, page 8, after the word­' apart '

ins8rt the words-' for scenic purposes or ' "

Amendment (.11r. Dunstan) agreed to.

Mr. WALKER (Cooroora): I have an amend1uent to move-

" On line 11, page 8, omit the words­' Section fourteen '

and insert the words-' Sections fourteen and fifteen.' "

The amendment is only a consequential one.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl7BLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dnnstan, Gym pie): That amend­ment is not necessary, as a previous amend­ment has already disposed of it.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 17 to 21, both inclusiYe, agreed to. Clause 22-" Of!encts"-

Mr. BELL (Fassifern): I beg to move the following amendment:-

" On line 20, page 9, after the word­' or,' where it first occurs.

insert the word-' inflammable.' "

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympie): I accept the amendment, and the consequential amend­ment on line 21, where the word " inflam­mable" will be inserted after the word "any."

Amendment (~vir. Bell) agree·d to, together with a consequential amendment on line 21.

Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 23-Furthcr offences"-agreed to.

Clause 24-' Una11thorised rural fire"-

Mr. KING (Lor;rm): I had giyen notice of intention to n1oYe an an1endrnent on this clause, but, as the proposed amendment of the Minister is much better, I shall not proceed with mine.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl'BLIC LANDS (Hon. T. Dunstan, Gympif): I beg to mow the following amendment:-

"On linG 13, page 10, .after the words­' rural fire'

insert tho wor·ds-' with intent to cause damage to the

property of another person.' " Amendment (Mr. Dunstan) agreed to.

Rural Fires Bill. [25 NovEMBER.] Electrical Workers Bill. 1337

"}lr. ::'.IOORE (A.1lbign;ij): I have no further amendment to move on this clause, but the point has just struck me that there is a dis­crepancy in nenalties between clause 22 and clause 24. · Clause 22 provides a penalty not exceeding £50 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months for a person who \Vilfully lights a fire under the conditions set out in the clause, but in clause 24 the penalty is imprisonment with hard labour for five vears or a discretionarv fine of £100 in the case of a per::-on wl;o wilfully und knowingly places inflammr.ble material " for the purpose of causing an unauthorisc·d rural fire." Perhaps the i\1inister can explain the reason for the {liscrepancy.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS ~Hon. T. Dunstan, G)Jmpie): The differeneP 1s that clause 22 provides penalties for eo•.,• of neglig><nee whilst the penalh under cl<tu·c 24 is for an act of incendiaris!ll. The latter clause reads-

. '' Any ]Wrson who wilfully and know­mgly places inflammable material in any place for the purpose of causing an unauthorised rural fire," etc.

which is q_uite a different thing from what is pronded m clause 22. Offences under that .clause can be deah with summarily; but an offence under clause 24 is a crime.

Mr. MoORE: In the other case is it not ;a cri1ne?

'l'he SECRETARY FOR P1JBLIC LANDS: ft is ce.rtainly a very serious offence. After all. 1he pcnalcies provided are the maximum !Penal tiPs.

Clause 24, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 25 to 27, both inclusive, agreed to. Clause 28--" Evidence; b1<rden of proof"­

Mr. BELL (Fas,•ifern): Paragraph (a) reads-

" The burden of proving the observ­ance of the conditions which would excuse the matter alleged in the informa­tion shall be upon the defendant."

I would like to ask the Minister whether that paragraph has reference onlv to the conditions laid down in clause 6, which relates to the restrictions on 1he li~htino- of fi_res, and provides that reas0nabl~ pre~au­hons shall be taken and also for the deliverv b" the owner or occupier of certain notices to the warden a.nd to his neighbours of the intention to light a fire.

The SECRETARY FOil Pum.IO LANDS : It has g~neral application t'? the provisions of the B1ll. For mstancc, 1t applies to clause 22 dealing with offences under the Act.

Mr. BELL: I think it is rather a tall order lo. put on the owner or occupier the onu~ of proving his innocence in those cases. If he is. accuse~ of wilfully or negligently s~ttmg hre to hls paddock, he has to prove In., mnocence, and that mav be rather diffi­cul~ to ·do in many instancei'. As to giving not~ce, we know that m country districts mails may be held up and not delivered, nnd it may be difficult in some cases to prove that the notice·' wen; sent in time. Under thp-;e conditions clause 28 is rather drastic. I therefore move the following amendment:-

''On lines 44 to 47, both inclusive. paiTc 10, omit the words- · "'

' (a) The hLud~n of proving the obsen·ance of the unditions which

would cxcus., tlw matter alleged in the information shall be upon the defend,mt.' •·

If those words arc omiHcd, it will mean going back to (}:., usual practice of common law.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Hon. 'I .Dunstan, (}ynzpie): I must confess that I am not too greatly enamoured with the clause myself. (Hear, hear!) At the ~arnc tin1e it is quite a con1n1on provision in several of our statutes, and it is in force in similar legislation in other States of Australia. \Ye have to use common sense in administration. and sometimes it is really neces,"al'V to secure convictio:1s. Hov.rever, I am quite prepari'cl to accept the amend­ment of the hon. member for Fassifern.

Amendment (Jl r. Hell) agreed to. Clat>oe 28, as amended, agreed to. Clauses 29 and 30 agreed to . The House resumed. The TE~!FOHARY CnAIHMAN reported the Bill

with amendments. Third reading of the Bill made an

Order of the Day for F>·iday, 2nd December.

ELECTRICAL WORKERS BILL.

SECOND READIXG-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE.

Mr. MOORE (A1<bigny): When the debate "as adjourned the other day I was r.eferri~g to the difference between the pos1bon m Queensland and what obtains in ;,1me other eountrie, in these matters, and to the enclea­\"Our in Queensland to restrict an individuai from getting into a higher grade of the indus­try. I would like to quote from the report of the Industrial Delegation which was sent to America by the Commonwealth Government for the purpose of investigating the method employed in, and the workin~ ,eo~ditions. asso­ciated with, the manufacturmg mdustnes of the United States of Ameriea. On page 18 of the report there is a chapter devoted to "Efficiencv of Personnel," in which it is said- ~

"A verv noticeable feature in Americ~r. industrv -is the opportunity given the laboure-r or unskilled person to atlvanoe. If a workman is able to do cortata work efficiently, he is employed at such work irrespective of wh.ether he has se,:ved an apprenticeship. It is only in the hidtlv skilled crafts or in those requiring ability to follow drawings, "Le., ar:Ll in which handwork is essential, such as tool­making, etc., that long courses of study and training are reqmred. A. lot of work that previously calleJ for crafts­manship is to-day being perfor>lF'cl faster and more efficiently by machines. It is considered unnecessary to comrwl you chs to learn to do by hand what is usually done by machinery-better that they devote their time to mor·o technical s"b­jects, or the making of machines r.nd tools.

" Little skill is required for operating many machines, a numb<>r of which are automatic or semi-automatic, consequently a man may enter a plant as J. labourer, ris·c to helper, and later to a m tchine OjWrator, such position carrymg· a t.igher rate of pay. The man who, as a boy, ha·d not the opportunity to learn a orade,

1Vl1·. ]}J oo1·e.]

1338 Electrical Workers Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] E:ectTical Workers Bil!.

Js therefore not compelled to n"''"'in a la bourcr for all ti111e. Ilis atilil v ,,·ill .rrivc hirn inr-reascd :status a11d pay, 'whicll in turn creates a dr-~in~ for adYanc DL'Lt ihat i completely absent un·dC'r .;;ystcn1s where advancement is denied him.

" In an aeroplane ·works Yisitcd, where the work js very exacti:H;, \Vcrc fvur:d men who joine-d as helpers, learner\ elec­tric welding, and 1xcre paid 28s p·'l' da v after scrYing at a v, age of 18.::. 6d. pei· day. As indicative of his ,kill. it should he mentioned that an ele'tric weld0r in anroplane factoric:-5 n1ust flr~t pass a Govc1·nn1ent test.

"Promotion is purely on ability to fill the higher positions.

"Eycr·" nu1.n is tested l1v l'_·ult...:~ \Yhcth-:r ·he bo a n1an hig1; 11p or a forcn1an or a wage-earner, auU his results <.lrt~ supplied hi1n frorn tinH~ to tirDo :-.o that he 1nay not be \Yorking in the dark.''

The rPport u1ent-ions s;_ Yeral places ',·hich 'Yore Yi,ited, and points out that CYPry oppor­tunih~ is g·iyen to the indiYidual to b<'th e hinl:3~;lf, either by aticndinr~· cla,ss.:'S Oi' b:v ho1nc study or f'OlT0Spondenc2 stud,'/, in order to enable ~1im to go in for C'' <nniHa­ticms. and so that. jf lh~ pron's hirn --~if com­peh'llt, he ca11 1ncvc frOin 0110 grade fO

another \Yithout any hindntnCC'. On page 19, the rernrt ays-

" The \York in evening s-chools i:-; de·:'igncd to proYidc additional tra·inir~~r for a·ch·c-HlC'Pn1cnt in an·v trndc or cv_,C'll­

pation. The Htininnun ~lgc for ihc CYPll­ing conr"e3 is 16 year;;. and the in·~trnc­tion rec0iY0d i:; '-'Upp1cnH'nhd to tl10 vvork in which the indiYidual is rmployod. that. if', for the purpose of incl'f'af'ing · skill or knowledge in the occupation in \Yhich the worker is engag-ed as his dRily cn1ploy-1ncnt.'"

It further state"'-'· One ,chcnw which intl'l"coh'd thl' dclc­

ga tion proYidl~d for young n1cn taking a cour·c of three ycau with alternate ncriods in the fartorv and in the claes­i·ooul. The rapid ·d.P~-clopn1cnt of nutnn­farturing indufltrics in .... \merica con1pcllcd ('lnplo:vcrs anrl their PxccutiYc to train men for semi-skilled work in factories, c1nd we found, t.hcrcforf', large llUinbpr::; of men following trades "·ho had not scn-cd an apprenticeship.

"On the other hand, tho•c who dnsired to improye their position aYaikd tl1Pn,. sclYos of the opportunities nrcn·id(•d by a ttcnding the classes attached to th.c Yarious large plants who emplov teachers to fl·i-..~e in"truction in prirnarv, Sceoudarv. and hje-hcr vocational subjcCts as~ociat~d 'Yith the indu~try conccrnc I.

" Classc"l are ale:o conduct,·d for fore­llH?n and a:;si--tant forerncn and anv ncrson \Yith a.:;;piration for the higher i1o"2ition may attend these classes .. ,

On pap:c 68 of the report there is an account of a confr-,·cncP co-:-1Yoncd bv tho Federal Counr·il of the Churches of Ch,:ist of America. at which all the employers' federations and trad.c unjons were rcprCscntcd.

[3 )J.In.]

I think tw<mty-cight took part in the cml­ference at which the members of the dele­gation were present. There were present

[Mr. Moore.

at the eonfl'rPllCe l\lr. I-Ingh Frayne~ gcnerab C:t:~ani.~cr, .:.\.1nr ,,ican Federation of Labonr, ~'\e\v 1.~ork City, and :.\Ir. ::\ocl Sargcnt 7

IHanngcr, Industrial Relation.s Departrncnt of the ::\ational Association of Manufacturers of the United States of America, ::i"cw York City. }ir. Fraync said-

,, Their policy was to produce to the lintit, consurnc to the lin1it, and share both with the community and the nation a) a, whole."

~'Ir. Sargcnt said-" He ag-reed tltat many of the union

leaders displayed a wi!lingncso; to co­operate on such matters as efficiency~ but hi3 rncrnbcrs t l1ought that it "\Yas more· col!dnciYc to efficiency to pay \Vorkers. 011 the bnsi8 of their ]ndiYidual n1crit, including piece-rate systeln:-3."

The- ·whole ba <::.is of their ~uccess sccn1s to bo that the-e arc pNparccl to allow any man who likes to stmly and present himself for (·(tunination or fit hiu1~clf for .a hig·hce branch in the indv·ctry in .,-hich he is <'ll[.;ngcd to an1il hilllsclf of the opportunitic§ in that dircctio;J. It is not nccess2.r3' tl~at lw ~-hon1cl ~pC'ncl uul.ny yca1·s a:o; an apprcntrce in that mnticular trade. If in after-life he -cif'Birc S to 0ntc-r a trade to which he has not Lcen apprenticed, he i8 given C'\:cry cpportnnit~ to fit. himself for that ca!lmg-.: H., is 1JC:cmittccl to take' the opportmntv of Dtt,,r,1il,~: claE:'C's for the purpo•c of study, which. wi1h the pract1cal cxp"riencc of the· \' ork in \Yhich he is c11gagcd, 1Yill c•nab!·~ l~irn to gain the high( ,t position in that~· indnstr~. l.~nfod-unatcly, the basis of this Bill ~l'CHl.3 to iJe to prevent n1en \;·ho corn­UH'ncc in 011e ln·auch of an illdnstr--- fronl llD.:''-illg to unnthpr Lranch. That is, a Yf'l'.Y

f!Tr:tt 1.11ist.akc. The objcctiYo of appoint­ing to the boanl so n1any rC'lJl'(".2Ut.atives fl·o111 trade union organisntions scc-n1s to­be ihc pla,·ing of rr ··trictions upon the (lpportunit.ic's fur nll'Jl securing enlployinent in different grades of the industry v.-ithin IYhich they arc employed. The cliffi.cultiC' pla-ced iu the "·ay of trade~nH•n con1iug even fro:11 another State arc Ycrv seve1·c•. The schedule to the Dill states- "

"Ccl·ti!-icat.Ps of ~-erYicc rn;r\~ be granted by the~ board to all pcrsCm'" entering this State from out-oide this State 1Yho 11rc at the date of commencement of this Act 0ngagcd in the clerical iuclu~try .. .''

A man may be a perfectly competent tradcs­L., 1:n. v.;orking for number of years in ~cw South \'\-ales 01· ·victoria, or perhaps oYer­""""· He ma:. be a perfectly competent operator in another branch of the industry; lmt. unless he happens to ),e employed hero before the commencement of this Act. he cannot :31·-cure a certifiC'atc of f-'CrYicc '~'ithout ~itt.ing for cxa111ination agaiP. All these restl·ici.ions are- tendi11g to make it more and more difficult for men to secure advancement or cmiJloynwnt in the electrical trade. I ;. 1uite recogni~c that the occupations of clC:'c­t.rical rnQchanic and electrical engineer aro becoming the h\n most popular occupations, l>ccau'3e the~~ offt~r th~ biggest scope for advancernent. It seems to be a mi~takc to~ introduce a Bill like this if it 1Yill in any w:_:~_y restrict the opportunities for advance­UH'nt on the part of young men and on the part of older men who enter this skilled" trade. They should be permitted to advancQ to the highE't no· ition in the indush·Y. I think it is recognised in other countri"es of

Electrical TV orker8 Bill. [:!5 NovEMBER.] Electrical Workers Bill. 1339

the '\or! d. particularlv in America and in Europe, that it is possible for any man >vho cnt<Ts an in.du~~try to rise to the top of the t~·cf>--ju;;;t as it v-as sajd of anv ordinat",­;.;oldicr in the armies of the Frcllch reYoh{­t ionary period that he had a field-marshal's baton in his knapsack.

At 3.5 p.m.,

}fr. F. _\.. COOPER (Brcm er). one of the J~atwl of Ternporar:y Chairmen, ·relieved the :-spP::~ker 111 the chau.

:\Ir. :\WOHE: It will be a mistake to place a11y restrictions in the wa '<' of a 1nan who,_is desirous of tltting himself by study, Fq:cpn~ation, and . tra_ining fo1· any ayenne that ts open io lnm 111 !he occnpr1tion of an ('lectrical wDrker.

I cannot understanrl !Le reason for making 1 ~1c board consist so pr~ponderatingly of Govern_n1ent and ernployeeR' representatives as a,gan~st tl~e. representatives of etnployers, local authonues, and electric authorities as is done in this Bill. There should be a~ (•qual rnnnbcr of representatives of C!HJ?lolees and eml?loyers presided over by

"w:penJent chairman. If the real objec-I~-as \\ c knew it is in many cases­

for the union .±<? rc~trict its nH~mbership and the opportunities for men \vho want to t·~lgJ.go in thi~ i~clustry, then it 1nay be all nght from thou point of view; but I cannot ,;c e the force of it from a public or Co-..~c•t'llmont viowr}Qint. Tbc Governn1ent arc .a::"•c-nting to this restrictive svstem bv pro. tdmg for the composition of the boar~! Hl tho way it is here. Tho n1e1nbers of the board under the nrcscnt Act were com­pulsori_ly retired c\·er]r three years. Under tins_ Brll the repr•:sentati,-es are elected for nn 1ndcfinite period.

The SECRETARY FOR L.\BOUR AXD INDUSTRY • ::'\o. The parties appointing them can chang~ them an~- tnnc they th111k tlt. They can l·han~....-c. then1 eYcl~.Y bYelv-c r:nonths or two y2ar:.-~ 1£ they like.

_:\Ir. :\100RE: How can they do that-bv grvmr;_ notwe to the board that they objec"t tv then rqn·escntatives?

~ The SECI1ETARY FOR LABOVn AXD IxDuSTRY: .the authontws haYe power to appoint fresh n prescr::.tat1ve".

:Vlr. )l()ORE: The other method of elec­tion wns the Le~L

_ Tho SECRETARY FOR LABOFR AXD IXDl'STRY: 1.hc authontles who. appoint the rep re 'lent a­tin's say that th1s rs the best m_thod.

:\Ir. :'clOOHE: If tho representatives are elc;ctul. for three years, a continuity of po~H'Y JS cns~rcd. ~t rnay so happ;('ll that a r.errc-~c:l~atP.;~ of the board, through sorne ncho:n 01. h1s, nught arou~e rE.::sentrnent among d--: members of the body appointing him tho1-~£;~l 1u;;; a~hon rnay have been concluciv~ to tl1o best mtere,l; of tho industrv. The wcmbers eiecting him under this 'method ;nay not t::~~(e into consideration the ultin1ate <?ffcct 011 the industry of what he is suppOrt.­r:lg _or tho good work he may haYe done JH'C'\'lO!lsly, and they_ may proceed to appoint rr fre -h. representative in his place. That ''- pr~cttcal[y exercising the right of recall. 11 e Know that s_ome people advocate the power of recall .111. regard to their parlia­:rnentary representatives.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOL'R AND IXDl'STRY • A member of Parliament is elected for ;

certain pel'iocl. These representariYes are elected for an indelini te period.

:Mr. IllOORE: It is preferable to elect the members of this board for a certain rl0finite per;·Jd and for them to retire then, but to be eligible for re-election. That is far bett..,r thL-n a system under which they r,rc ekcted indefinitely with the right of a sccticn to change their representative as thev think fit becau''" of some action which he ~nuty ha Ye taken.

The mosi important part of the Bill is really contained in the schedule, for it places restrictions on the individual. The :Minister has handed me some amendments which he intends Ino\·ing in Cornmittee, and I notice thai· tlP hon. gentleman intends by those amendments to remedy the position in this, respect to a constdcrable extent.

The hon. mewber for Toombul sought tu make 1t JlO"ible for a jointer to become tt

1ncchanic or for a 1nechanic to beco1ne a litter; and that is likely to be done under the amendme-nts to be proposed bv the Minister. The hon, gentleman would be W!Se . to acc:ept the principle that a man rutenng a parhcular industrv shall haye (~\Tl'.Y opportunity to adYance" frmn grade to ~radc, 11ot only through apprenticeship ~~rYtec, hut aJ·>? op attainiug con1petcncy by ctudy at l"chmcal clac,es. I do not know "hy the prm-ision for technical classes is clirninatccl fro:n this Bill; but probably the :\ltntslcr has some reason for not adopting ~h:'. dansc in that l'egard \vhich apvears m the [ll·c•sent Act. It seems to me that the HH':1:-;ur0 no\v under consideration has not been illtroducccl for the benefit of the publio ~Jr at the rcque~t of those engaged in the mdtbhy. but at the instance of the unions who wish to tighten up restrictions in 01·de; that they may have a better grip on :his mdustry, "·htch theY desire to conYert into a cl<?sc corpor!lt~on .. That, in n1y opinion, is a mistake. \\ hdst lt may be the case that there. arc _too ~Jany. Inen engaged in the e1ectncal 1ndu~tr~ to-day,. no one kno\vs :vhat cxp1l:n~ion is likc•ly to take place in the mdnstry 111 th0 next ten years. Probably ten times t_he. number of employees will b'e engaged >ntlnn the next few vears. J\.1en showing any aptitude for the calling should have no oL~~tacles or restrictions placed in the way of their getting in to unions and being enabled to engage in electrical '\vork. The occupations covered by this Bill are both popular and lucrative fqrms of employ­ment, and there should be no restriction placed upon those who are most competent to engage in the work. Everv effort fol" adYanre:-n.t~nt in the ('ailing shtnlld be given, so that those 1YhCJ haYe a nahn·al aptitude for the work may be safeguarded.

. J3:-;~ his .11ropo~ed (\Hlt:ndmc,nt.s, the ~linister ~~ rl'n1oYLlg a certain 1nnnher of the restric­tJons a~ain~t men earning fron1 other States, who wtll prob~bly ha:·e an opportunity of . .::.<. :~lHlL ~~· cert.lf1catc Ill a les:::: restricted n~mm~r tha_n w, s prcviou-:;ly int~nded; but thP_ R1ll as It no'..· ~t.ands irupost.:>s l'l'''trictions ~vhtch ~re 1nost drastic, and 1nakes it ahnost Jnlpos:.:;;.lble !or. any n1an to emplo:;-·-n:cHt In this Industry in four or e years unless he has had ~o n1uch serYicc 'Jrior to the pa~sing of tlw legislation. Th~ certitl­C"Rte ?f serYice. for n1en who arc already here: Y' not. gon~g to be easy to get. The certificate for mspecior is pro,·ided for, J!lasmuch as a certificate of comp"tcncv can he secured from the point of view of service

Mr. Jloore.]

1340 Electrical TV orkers Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Electrical Worke"B Bill.

·on application to the board. I am not cer­tain as to the application of clause 13 of the ochedule in the case of the employee, and as to whether he will be placed in the same position as the inspector. I cannot see that the individual who is working in the trade at the present time without a certificate will be able to secure a certificate without exmnination.

The SECRE:N.RY FOR LABOcR AXD INDcSTRY : 'They are all qualified.

Mr. MOORE: From what I can gather, an inspector does not have to pass an examina­tion. He can get a certificate for service.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD INDUSTRY : That is because he has been many years at the work.

Mr. ;yJOORE: Should not the employee be plac~ in the same position?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD INDl•STRY : They are all qualified now.

Mr. MOOR]): It seems rather an extra­ordinarv thing that the employee who has to pass an examination of competency before be can secure a certificate is going to have his work inspected by an inspector who has only a certificate of service.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR A:-iD INDUSTRY : 'We gave these certificates of service under the 1923 Act.

Mr. MOORE: Are they to be cancelled now?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : No; they will continue. There is no need for them now as all the employees are qualified.

Mr. MOORE: The certificates of service issued in 1923 are to remain?

The SECRETARY FOR LABOl'R AXD INDUSTRY: Y0".

Mr. MOORE : That is what I could not quite make out. It appeared to me that these men would still hnve to go up for examina­tion, irrp,peetive of the number of years they ha-d followed this class of work. The Bill sePnl> restrictive, but. judging bv the amendments the Minister has circulated, apparently he is going to rectify the mistakes in the Bill by making it possible for mechanice to get into another section of the industry. That takes away a great deal of the objection I had to the Bill in the first place.

The other main objection is to the con­stitution of the Board. ' I think the basis is a wrong one, and I should like to see H10. J\1illi~ter accept an ·an1e11dn1ent in con­nection with the constitution of the board giving equal reprt"'"lentation to en1ployer and employees, and also giving representation to all the electric authorities in the State.

Mr. FERRICKS (South B:is?ane) : No doubt tlw industrial commrs,wn which recently ;-isited America mad.e inquiries as to the methods of apprenticeship and how they are operated in electrical works as well as in other industrial works in that countrv. The trouble with the industrial commissioi1. according to its report, was that it accepted all the aesurances and statistics that were palm~ off on it by the Bureau of Com­merce and 'Trade. During the last eighteen months or so there have been four such dele­gations to America, and there is a regular ~ystem of preparing information, Officers

[illr. MoM"e.

are detailed to collect data, and all these figu"es and statistics and statements are ladled out to each succeeding delegation.

In a previous debate I quoted from a book entitled "An Australian looks at America." The author of that book was associate editor or the Melbourne " Herald," and, following the customary practice of journalists, he did not accept the figures and statemenh that were given to him in the orthodox way. He got well beneath the mrface of things, and his presentation of the case is quite different from that mentioned. by the L<>acler of the Opposition as contained in the report of the industrial commission.

The Leader of the Opposition said. that in being apprentice·d to tra-des in the linited Stares-particularly electrical trades-it was pcssible for an unskilled labourer to go along in progression fron1 one series of vvork to another, increasing his skill as he went along, until in the en<! he became an efficient elec­trician. But what the Lc,ader of the Oppo­sition did not say was that in (he electrical and other works of the United States fullv 90 per cent. of the employees are unskilled, and the other 10 per cont. are composed of men who are tool makers, repairers, and so forth, and replacers of machinery in. part.

Mr. MooRE: Still it gives the opportunity for the unskilled man to get on if he likes.

Mr. FERRICKS : That has not been the experience in the United States. On the con­trary, the United States has been in the habit of importing artisans from Britain, Germany. Fr•ance, and Italy to fill the skille-d jobs. The supply ha,-ing run out, the L' nited States now is facing the difficulty of replacing artisans and skilled workers in the electri(,al trades, with the result that it is only now that the training of apprentices in thP v~ rinno:: inciu~triP,. 1~ t1 kinD" nlnt<P Mr .. rlugh G~~nt--Ad~~: th~ ~t;th~~ of'-th~ book to which I have referred, points out that in the works of Crane and Company, of Chicago, there were 8,400 employees, of whom onlv 500 were skilled workers. or less than 6 Jler cent. That firm wa> engaged. in the production of rather technical imtruments, such as steam valves, gauges. and fittings ; yet less than 6 per cent. of the employees in their factory were skilled worker5.

The hon. member also mentroned piece­work. and, whilst I realise that a discussion on that subject would not be in or.der, I assume that I am at liberty to mention in reply to the L~ader of the Opposition that there is quite a different construction put upon piece-work in the United States from what we are led to believe from information su_pplied in response to inquiries which ha;-e been made through orthodox channels. A man there is onlv one in a chain of workers, and he is paid accor-ding to the turn-out of the whole team of workers. It is also stresced that in the works of the 'Western Electric Company in Chicago they haYe made provision for men engaged in the industrv bv means of welfare associations. hospiials f';,r 'injured workers. a system of insurance, and all that sort of thing. which are ;-erv attractive. But the trouble is that the cost of such institutions in the worb of the \Ye,tern Electric Company is infinitesi­mal compared with the huge profits which have been accumulated in that business in the past. Industry is very drastically con­trolled in that country, and that is what

Electrical Workers Bill. [25 NovE:I!IBER.] Electrical Workers Bill. 1341

we want to guard against here; and Bills of this natur<J are designed to protect our industries. The VVcstern Electric Company in Chicago controls a subsidiary undertaking in the form of a telephone companv, and makes profits in that way. "

This Bill is cl, ,igned to safeguard the workers in indu,try. As stated bv the ::'.Iinis­ter on the second reading, we have read iu the papers about fatalities occurring in our midst within the last couple of years. There are restrictive provisions in the Bill, but we have no ·dc,ire to make a close presenc for any industry, trade, or profession; but the fact remains that, when work is so tech­nical and dangerous, a safeguarding Bill of this nature is n"ces::oary. -

The Leader of the Opposition criticised the proposed representation of the unions concerned in the welfare of these workers; but surely there is every justification for it. and no good argument can be advanced against it. \Vho are more entitled to repre­oe.ntation in the carrying out of the industry than the people engaged in it, especially when we remember that the interests of the employers are safeguarded by representa­tions on the authority established under the Bill?

I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that the electrical trade is a very popular trade-it is sometimes described as being over­popular-and there is a greater desire on the part of apprentices to enter it than other trades. There is also a greater number of apprentices offering than there. are openings for.

The Leader of the Opposition complained ~-bout the union books being closed; but, It there IS a surplus of men wanting employ­ment, It appears to me that whenever this question is raised-and it has been raised in other cases as in this discussion-it is always the man who is without the union ticket who is offered the job. Hon. members oppo­site have quoted case after case of men who could obtain jobs if they could only get umon tickets. If the electrical trades unions a re. carrying on along those lines to protect :heir members, they are also working in the m ter2sts of those who are out to learn all abm~t the trade and bring it to the highest effipe?cy possible. If there are any dis­abilities under the Bill-and per~onally I ha 1·e not co~e across them-we must give ':'areful attention to any move in the electrical mdmtry. that may be started in Australia on the lines of the concerns in the United States of America, with a possibly equal! v dangerous aftermath; and it is the dutv of the Srate and the Commonwealth Gm:ern­mcnts to see that these restrictions are im­posed .against the growth of such corpora­tions. m the Interests of those employed in the mdustr:v and those who use the power turned out by it.

:Hr. KERR (Enoggcra): I think it will be generally adn;itted that the Opposition are. not advoca bng anv looseness in the l~gislation dealing with" this indnstrv · but on the o~her hand, it is quite e.-ident that opport.umhcs for l<;arning the trade are not gomg to be provided under this measure. In season and out of seaeon we haYe atho­cated that any per<on ,;-ho ~esires to qualify as a tradesman or eqmp hnnse!f for hi a he,.' form-; of. craftsmanship should haYe e~-er-~ opportumty of doing so, irrespccti,·e of his a!!.e or wheth<'r he has sened an apprentice· shrp or not. There is no reason whs 'l mav

ovt r twents-one years of age, who possibly got into the wrong grooYe when a youth, dwuld be handicapped for the rest of his life b,- unwise legislation. In my opinion, this Bill is entirely wrong in principle. If n. man twenty-one years of age desires to take up another occupation. and if technical colleges offer him the opportunitv of learn­ing it-particularly the electrical trade­then nothing should prevent him from obtaining a certificate for that purpose.

[3.30 p.m.] Everyone will realise that eledric light

and power is more and more playing an important pa.rt in the development ·of our mdustry, 'l'he report of the Australian Industrial Delegation to America indicates that in industrial undertakings electricity is one of the most important factors in raising mdustry to the peak of production. The report also informs us that in connection ;vith these huge industrial undertakings there Is always a 50 per cent. surplus of electric po;ver: Ever~-one will acknowledge . that, omte urcspectrve of any other factor mven­tions, particularly electrical have do~e more ~or civilisation, for happin'ess, and for the Improvement of the standard of living than all the legislation in the world, The world owes a great deal to the inventive mind and nothing lends itself more admirablv t~ invention than electricity. We have" to realise that even in Australia we mav require a greater number of craftsmen to carry on this great industry. In making these. s,tater~ents I . am . not forgetting the rest!·I.ctwns m the B1ll with regard to oppor­tum ties, . nor am I forgetting the publio danger m regard to these matters. The provisions of the Bill would not be so obje~tionable if everybody \Yas permitted to qualify by examination; but it seems cruel that men who have passed the age of twenty-one. shc;uld be debarred from sitting for exammatwn,. \Vhy should they be debarred from domg so? It is proposed to create a board of nine individuals who can pr<>scribe the exan:ina tion, both practical and ether~nse, an.d, I~ workers are competent to pa 'S this .exammatl'?n, and perhaps possess sc;me practical expenence, they should be gn'en an opportunity to qualify.

The ~ECRET.~RY FOR LABOFR AND INDUSTRY: There B nDthmg to prevent rhat. . Mr. KERR: There is even-thing to stop It. Clause 6 reads- V

"Xo per~on other. than a probatiDner, OI." . apprentice workmg under the pro­VIsions of the Apprenticeship Act of 1924i shall carry . on or enl;(age, or be emJ?·oycd, or act m the callmg or o.:cu­patwn of an electrical worker unless he IS the holder of the certificate of the a!Jl)l"Opriate description."

I kn?w of ~ man in partnership in an elec~I:Ical bmmess who is unable to get his ~·erhlicate .. For yea'':' he has been perform­mg el?c~rical ';·ork m all its phas<>s, Will the }lm.Istr•r tell me if that man can secur,­lns cerbfica~e, and whether he will be per. nutted to sn for the examination?

The. SECRETARY FOR L.<sorn AND INnrsrny: He \nll If he can show the necessary experi­cncf'.

.}lr. KERH: If that io w. the~ this Bill will not be so de3perately bad; but. if he has. to show. that l;c 1'as apprenticed to a br:smess-wh:ch lw Is unable to do-then he Will be handicafJped for the rest of his life.

Mr. Kerr.]

1342 Electrical Workers Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Electrical Workers Bill.

The SECREHRY FOR LABOUR AXD INDUSTRY : That will not be necessary.

Mr. KERR: I have in mind a case from mv electorate which I took up with the Electrical \Y orkers Board, and i.n which I interested nn-self for months. This indi­vidual could 'not produce his apprenticeship papers. I have sent to the old country in an endeavour to get them. ~otwithstand­ing that he had letters showing that he posse~·,.ed e'<perience up to six vears and that he had performed all sorts of electrical work, he could not get his certificate, and has not been able to get 't up to the present day.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOt:R AND INDt:STRY : This Bill makes provision for someone to ~tep in and assist in such a case.

Mr. KERR: The Electrical \Vorke"' Board declined to entertain the application. Under the 1923 Act application could be made to the Minister. A man from Long­xeach did apprlal to the Minister, but I do not know the result of his application_. It would be interesting to know whether these men are going to receive their certificates of competency.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AXD INDUSTRY : Not unless they have the necessary experi­ence.

Mr. KERR: That is fair enough. This Bill cloes not give a man over twenty-one ;,-ears of age an opportunity of securing a certificate unless he has served an appren­ticeship. That is what I am getting at.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : The Bill makes provision for that.

1\lr. KERR: That clears that point. Let us clear up another point. There are men who have been v;orking in the trade for some time who are particularly desirous of qualify­ing under this Bill, but have been prevented. I have a case in particular from Longreach_ I will tell hon. members his qualifications in order that the principle involved may be looked into before the Bill reaches Committee. This man writes regarding his qualifications in these words-

" The position of Longreach from an electrical worker's point of view is one that could reasonably be viewed with as much elasticity as the Act will allow; the population is only about 3,000 and wrth the bulk of the houses wirecl the amount of work offering is such that it is an uneconomical proposition for a full­time electrician.

" I have had a lot of experience on electrical work, being fully employed for two and a-half years as assistant to certified electricians during the time the bulk '?f tho house connecting was being done m Longreach and have since then closely allied myself with all classes of work elrctrical. I have also studied the subject theoreticallv and consider I haYe intelligently maste'red it, both prac­tiCally and lheoretrcallv. to that clegree that would fit me in every way to be classed as a competent electrical mechanic.

'· A!! 1 want is permission to sit for the necessary certificate, which I am con­fiden~ I . would l;ave no difficulty in securmg rf only grven the opportunity. "~Iy pr0sent emplo:cment is _engineer

to Eclwards, Martm, Ltd., havmg com­menced wrth them as a junior in 1920. (I enclose a certificate from that firm b

r .lfr_ l' ('rr.

this eff• et.) This is another trade loc'llly. owing to the limited scope, and one which does not permit of full time being put in_ It is only by filling in my time in work such as lorry driving, labouring, etc., that I can be fully c'"'l'loyecl by the firm. This latter class cf work Ciln easilv be clone bv the un~killed 1nan." '"' '"'

The SECRET.IRY FOR LABOUR AND IxDCSTRY : That i~ only his statenH~nt.

::\lr_ KERR : I saw the evidence in the dct)arhuent.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOCR AND IXDCSTRY: "\Ye ha• c- no evidence.

Mr. KERR: I have evidence from his own firn1.

The SECRET.IRY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : Only a statement.

Mr. KERR: I have here a statement signed by the manager of the firm with whom he is employed. This is what the firm has to say a bout it-

,, Eclwards, Martin, Ltd., Longreach. •• To "\Yhom it may concern. "This is to certify that J ames Foster

has been in our employ for a period of seven years, commencing August, 1920, and is still in our employ.

" He commenced as a junior in the engineering department and is still employed in that department as a journeyn1an.

"From June, 1921, for a period of two and a-half years he was employed a,;; an assistant to our electrician, and during that period, clue to his readiness to learn and his ability to acquire know­ledge. he became efficient in that call­ing. During that period he was uncler the control of a certificated electrician A. G. Harriss, and later, J. Everest.

"\Ye are of the opinion, if given an opportunity to acquire a certificate of competency under the Electrical vVorkers Act, he would have no difficulty what­ever in passing an examination to enable him to secure this certificate."

Here is a man who has been engaged with a.n Plectrical firm for seYen vears. and dur­ing periods of that time has actually been working at the electrical trade.

The SECHETARY FOR L.\BOCR AND INDt:STRY : 'With an engineer.

;\Ir. KERR : He has been under a certifi­c-ated engineer. These men go out to Long­reach. get tired after remaining there for a month or two and come back to Brisbane. During the absence of the engineer this rnan has had to carrv on electrical 'York without a certificate. ' There has been no man in Longreach other than himself to do the· \Yiring and so on. There has been no P'-"'ible opportunity for the work to be done otherwi2e; and, if he had not clone the work. the town would have been in dark­ne-::;;:~. not once but dozens of tirnes. Th i~ man has lived in the district all his life. He is prepared to sit for both the theoretical and practical exar11inations, yet he has bcrn JH'C'Yentccl b!· the board from doing so. It will b0 interesting to know whether the Bill will gi.-e this man the opportunity which Le nnqnE>srionabl,\ should LaYP. The House might well consider this matter, because, when the Bill is in Committee. an am<'nd­mcnt will come from this side enabling such a man to sit for examination. I am not

Elrxtrical Workers Bill. [25 NoVE}TBEn.] Elertrical Tror1.·ers Bill. 134:3

foJ'f','tJ-ing that the pubiic mmt be protected frmn the danger a~,, ociat.ecl with this work.

At 3.40 p.m., The SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. KEl:U{: The t·eport of the illdu,tJ'ial dt·lt'b !lion to .A_rnorica ha~ illi3 to say on ti· ' Yer:_v question I arn Sl>C'aking about'-

.. A verv noticeable feature in ..._L\..nwri~ r; n industry is tl~e OlJJlOl'tunity g·iven tl1e labotn'L'l' or urL-dGlled nerson to advance If a "·orkruan is aLle 1:o do certain \Yorl~ Pfficiently, lw i:-:: e1nplovrd at such \York irrespef'tive of whether~ he has :::crvcd all a ll]H'enticeshi p. ,.

. l\l;:. HERRICKS: .Aceordillg to ihe dclega­·~ IOll. they ca,u lcaru in an ltoUJ\

l\Ir. KERR: Some justification su1·elv ·Pxisted to call forth the statement that ii1 .. Arnerica the unRkilled worker rnav enter the rank~ of the skilled \Vorkers with~out hayjnn· to RC'·rYe an apprenticeship. e

.Mr. FERHICKS: 'I'ho member·, of the delc­.gut.Ion '.vere told that by publicity men.

:\Ir. KERR: I think the members of that <lelegabon were men of sufficient common , Pn~e to investigate conditions in that -c·ountry personally. It has been contende-d !hat lllUC'~l inforn1at.ion concerning conditions m An1er1ca could haye been gleaned from 'tan~ncs. but I think it will be admitted tlwt the delegation im·estio·ated thorou~hlv -tlw industrial conditions of that countrv.~ "

Mr. FERRICKS: Thev did not get und~r the :-nrfare. ~

Mr. KERR: The hon. gemleman is not cor·rcct when he says that. The report of 1hat delegation is a" most Yaluable one and d'"closes that the inquiries made wer~ not Jnctely &uperficial. Mr. V alPntine. a. nH~Ill~ ber of that delegation, has consistcr1tlv adyo. C'all'd sinf'f'. his_ return an opinion "~hieh is hdd. m: tlns stde of the Chamber-that no J'PstncnmB should be placed upon any man who desn·es to become a tmd<'Sman. Rder. <'llCC was made to that matter when disetBs­lng the ~\.pprenticeship Act Amendment Bill.

Mr. 'A-EIR: Do you fa your the same thin" in the professions? e

lii·r. KERR: Absolutelv. It is onh· sincu ilw hon. gentleman wl!o has inte"rjectecl lJccame a member of this Chamber that he> has qualified as an accountant. \Vould the hon. gentlt'man have studied if restrictions ouch as are foreshadowed here had been imposed?

. Mr. "WEIR: I got throug"h on ability.

.i'.Ir. KERR: I \Yant the same treatment <Pxtcnded to the un.;killcd man or to the clerk \Yho at ~we1_1ty-one years of age may find h unself d1sm1ssed from a clerical position. so that they may by ability make g·ood in another sphere. 'rhat is a. fair •requesr. There should be no restrictions in this Bill \vhieh ~hould giYc every opportunity to tlws~ who w1sh to succeed. I am pleased th;ct tlH' hon. memb~'r fo':" Maryb~rough interjected. The posstbll1ty 1s that. 1f <'VL'r he is clis­p1ac('d fron1 ParlianH~nt. he "\Ylll practiRC> the lHofe~sion of H('C'Olllltancv and will bP l't'ccived with open anns bv tLb Accountanb' Rociety. "

=.\1:·. \YEIR: They cannot h0lp receiving 1110.

:\Ir. KRRR: It is a gT<'~t. pity the unions nf Qu<'ensland are not in the same position~ lt appea_rs to 1ne that tllo~C' at pre>.:-Pnt {\Jlgaged 111 the indu~try ure endeaYouring to

rnakP it a clo::;0 corporation-the closest cor~ poration thar I know of-because there will la' no adrantage in a tnan's studying the tr:tde if a ccrtifieate of competency will not be gra"tcd and he will not be admitted to r he' tmde. The most impo·rtant part of tlw ~l'lwdule rulates to that certificate, .as I shall proc(•t..•d to sho\'\' .

It is proposed by this Bill to increase the munlwr of mcmbc·rs of the Electric;cl \\'ol'ker:-' Board. and I an1 rather inclined 10 agrpe with the rernarks of the hon. rnern~ !JN for Toombul that tllC number should be' n'dm·0cl. lt i~ pmposed to appoint nme nwmlwr~ on tlw board. and I think the hon . membe1·, for Toombul suggested that fin; would bp ufticient. I cannot see that such a large nurnber a~ nine is required, and the numLN could be cut down without anv tmuhlP to one rPpresentative of the Trades Hall iJ"tc•ad of two, one representative of thi' emplo~·ees instead of two, and one repre­sentative of the Government instead of two . lloPs not that seon reasonable? "C"nques­tiollaLly it. does. ~f.lhe c1nployces and their uuion:-; dorninate tlw present board. ..._<\s a ;nntt.N of cold fact. I know that thev were in such a position under the 1923 Act that tbl'y canied out whatever they wanted to catTv out. 'rhc other me1nbers of the board coulZl H'ry wl'll ha vc resigned. for all the c'ousiderution their recon1mendations roceiYed. That is a very sad Rtate of affairs, because. after all is said and done, in the public interests there should be an unbiassed bodv c]paling with this question. Since this GoYPl'lHlH:'ut came into power there has alwav; been a t.endenev to constitute their boarZl~ on the basis of inequality. \Ye havP unlv to look at the Board of Trade and Arbitration for an example of that inequality and inequity.

:\h. 0' KHI'E: Then' is prrwision in clause 7 for rPpt·psentation of the employers.

:".lr. 1\:EHR : >Yhen tlwy are in a minority ,,-hat ··ay wiil these representatives have·: \Ye know perfectly well that they will ha,ve uo eay whahccver. In America, both in iPdnstry and in the worbhop, employees are pNmitted to rise higher up the scale; and in Au:;tralia and in every other country men \\"ho are desirous of bettering their po,ition in life should have the same oppor­tunity. We have reached a sad state of affairs when the Gon'rnment step in and by legislation say that a man shall not. have an opportunity of improving his position in life. .\t a lah'r stage I shall take the opportunity of connnenting furtl1cr in that rega.rd .

l\h. 1\IAX\YELL (TooiCong): The informa· tiou that ha~ been gi,-en to the House by the L<'ader of the Opposition, the hon. mem­lwr for Toombul, and the hon. member for Euoggcra in conncrtion with this Bill should make the .\Iini;ter in charge of the Bill lH'''itate before lH'OCC'eding very much further '· i1b it ur~lPs!3 it is his intention to accept (·t)rtain arnendnu•nt,; that will have a tE'ndencv to iutpron~ thP lHcnsurc cvnsiderably .. Th"e Bili in its prC'=-ent fonn. instead of giving a• .. ,j,talJCf' to thf' \\Orkl't". will jeopardise thl' ilHPre~t~ of tllO-,.e Inost concei·ned. If the Bill i> ,•·oing to be for the protection. not only d the work0rs in industry, but of tho public a; \";ell. it j, quite all right; but \"\-hPn one anaiv·..,(· o it~and it has reeC'ived fni1· aludYtical, trenhnent at the hands of pr,'"\·iou.;: ~prnk0r~-it would seen1 that th1t ;, 1. >t tlw \\"hole de,ire of the hon. g-entk· uuu:. \Yhilc th"• pi'ir:eiph'~ of the Bi11 nuly

Mr. MaxE'''l!,J

1344 Electrical Workers Bill [ASSEMBLY.] Electrical Workers Bill.

be ve,·y easily put into operation in the city, it will be quite a different thing in the country centres.

The hon. mcrnber for Enoggera ya.vc an iilustration of ,,-hat has taken place at Long­reach, wher~ a firm found it very dif!icult to get even one vvorker '\vho was a thor?ughly competent mechanic, and had asked that a man named Fost~r shouid be given permi:;­sion to pass his examination. Every facility should be placed in the way of giving thc.;e men the opportunity to pass their examin"­tions. The hon. member for South Bris­bane said that he could quite undcrstfmd the closing of the union books, and that, when there wore certain individuals in the union looking for employment, it was not fair to allow others to come in to share in the benefits accruing from unionism. That, at any rate, was the inference to be drawn from his speech. I believe in unionism, and hold that every person who wishes to join a ur,ion has a perfect right to be admitted to the union, irrespective of the number on the books. It should be a case of the sur­vival of the fittest; those best qqalified would necessarily come to the top. A man who is best fitted for the job generally gets it. vYhile in the cities we may reap the bene6t of having highly skilled men to do our work, when you get to Longrcach the caw is different ; and the people in Long reach and other outside centres are just as much entitled to protection as we who are in the cities.

The SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND INDUSTRY : They get it. You do not expect the board to giYe an incompetent man a certificate;

Mr. MAXWELL: ?\o; but I do not expect the boar-d to debar a man who they say is incompetent when they do not know whether he is incompetent or not, as he has not been under examination. If the man can­not pass an examination, I can quite undcl~­stand the action taken by the board. I want to quote the information which has be-en received in connection with this man Foster from the firm in Longreach-

" \V e find our difficulty here is getting a c::>mpetcnt man to come from Brisbane and remain hero. There appears to be a dearth of good electrical mechanics, and when they do leave the city, it is only for a few n1onths, and we are again put to the expense and inconvenience of 8Ccuring a fre;;:h n1an. Since the \Vritcr'/3 ccm·er ntio'l with vou. our certificated man has gone on a lllonth's holiday. From a wire; that came to him yestm·day. after hi& departure, it ap)Jcars that he has no int0ntion cf returning. Ho has only been with t~s about eight or nine inonth~, and he has been the longe;.;t of any that we ha Ye ha cl in cm· em ploy. :\Lost of the nll n that \VC get, although th, y can·~"­( l1 1't :firaL_,.., of coinpete::.1cy under the Eh cn·ica] \VorkPr- ~Act. tre, in our opinion, not qualifird }n v..:ry many rh poets to hold oertificatcc .. ,

'I'hat ehows thnt the firm referred to is quite rrcparcd to admit the little delinquencies of their mnplo:vces. It continnes~

''VIe find that our indentured appren­tice here and the a bm·enamed J ames FoFtcr aro quite supe6or in all depart­rncnts. ronn( ::tcd ,,·ith electricity.

·' Last year. feom July to September. we were without the services of a.

[J'lr. Jlancell.

certificated electrician and even tried as far as Sydney to get our requiren1cnts fc1lfillcd."

I say that nery opportunity should be given to tho~e \Yho arc desirous o£ qualifying as electricians, and, if that were so, there would bc- ~CO cause for complaint; but, if men in vYestern towns find their businesses held up in that way, we have every reawn to protest.

In his second reading speech the Minister expressed his desire-and it is the desire of cvcrv hon. member as well-to have thoroughly qualified workmen in this trade. bearing in mind the dangerous nature of the calling and the necessity for protecting the public as well as the workers themselves. That beino- the ease, I certainly hope the Mini~ter '~ill accept amendments in Com­mittee. I understand that he has already indicated his intention to accept certain alterations, and I am glad of it.

I quite agree with the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Toombnl that the board proposed under this Bill is­altogether too cumbersome. It is not neces­sary to have a ~'?ard _with _nine membe_n. I view the P''Ovtstons m th1s respect wtth suspicion, as I often do prcvi_sions in Bills­which come from tho other stde. I would like to know where it is going to lead. It is hardlv necessarv for me to quote Jl,lr. G. D. H. Cole "the lvrit.,i· of "Guild Sociulisn1" :-

' "The complete change which we desire could 11ot be carried through wholly by c-mstitutional means, industrial or political even if the goYerning classe< wer•c to' allow the deve:opments which undermined their powe1· to proceed to th~ end without resisting them by force; bnt, at the best, the unconstitutional reYolution might be reduced to a mere clearing. awav of what had already become useless debt~is of a decayed system by rnethods of encroachment."

That quotation is to be found on pages 187 and 188. On pages 196 and 197 he says-

" Bv encroaching control is meant a poEcy. directed to wresting ~it by bit from the hands of the P-~%essmg classes the economic power which they no·.;· cxerci · ,,, by a steady transference of functions and rights frorn their non1inee.:; to representatives of the working classes. Encroarhing control aims at taking cer­tain pe>wers right out of the employers' hands and transferring them completely t.o th~ organised ·workers.''

I sav unhesitatingly that here the Minister nrovides us with an instance of encroachment bv transferring powers from the employer3 tc; l he organised workers. \V e have proof positive o·f that, and I submit that there is no necessitY at all for such a large board. The Bi:I p1:ovides for two Government repre­sentatiYes, one qualified engineer (a unionist\, one reprcsentatjye of the Fire Lnderwriters' As•ocialion of Queensland. one qualified en::rincer er holder of a certificate under the Act elected by the employers in the State, hvo represent ttives of the e:11ployecs in tho electrical industry, and bvo representative.:; of the Quc·~nsland Branch of the Electri,cal Trades 'Cnion of Austraiia. These facts nrov•' conclucivelv that the hon. gentlem. n has adopJ"d Jl.h:. Cole's ideas of " Guild f:!rv·ia1ism." Here is an in~tance of Dll attempt to wrest control frc1m the emp:oyc·n and placn, it in the hands of the working classes-or, rather, the e:11ployed classc·s,

Electrical TV orkers Bill. [25 NovE~IBER.] Electrical Workers Bill. 134-5

because the employing classes are working cla~ses, too.

In Queensland at present there aro t\venty-four municipal electric authorities, three Government electric authorities (Home Hill, Theodore, and Tully), thirteen private authorities, and forty-three firms who are members of the Electrical Federation.

[4 p.m.] There is also a laq;o number of working

employers, wbo naturally would be members of the union, and there are 1,100 certified electrical workers. I say in all honesty and seriousness that we are perfectly justified in giving every protection to the workers in this industry. We should take every pre­caution to see that no serious accidents eventuate that might either injure a person for life or result in his death. To the ordinary individual the manipulation of an electric iron is a minor matter, but two fatttlities have occurred through faulty con­nections. I instance that to show the abso­lute necessity for protecting not only the workers engaged in the industry but also those using the electric energy.

During the second reading of the Electrical \Vorkcrs Bill in 1923, the then Secretary for l'ublic Works said-

" The standard of exatuination not only safeguards the public interest, but aho prevents those engaged in the industry frorn creating a close corpora­tion with a view to eliminating com­petition as far as possible."

They wore Yery nice sentiments, but this Bill removes many facilities that \\'ere pro­vided in the Act of 1923 such as enabling employees engaged in the tra,de to improve their position and enabling others to enter the industry.

I do not intend to traverse the ground tranrsed by the Leader of the Upposition, the hon. member for Toombul, and the hon. member for Enoggera. Every opportunity should be given to the bov who is anxious to C>nter a certain calling, uand evcrv oppor­tunity should be given to the worl<er who desires to ach·ance from one branch of the industry to a higher branch of that industry. I shall content myself with waiting until the Committee stage to sec cxactlv what is to be done. I cert:1inly hope that, ,~,ith a Bill such as this, the i\Iinister will not be inoculated with the idea that there is onlv one section of the . community \vhich has ·the right to ln-e. It the Government carrv out their dutv honestly and capably, they a'l·e there for the express purpose of conducting the business of the country in the bF-t interests of the country as a whole. I sa v unhesitating-Jv that l3ills such as these ha,;e a tf nclency ~ t~ e11croaeh upon the rights and powers of employers, to their detriment and to the dorimcnt of the whole community. by plac­Ing H1 the hands of another s::c:tion of the community something that is unbearable and intolerable.

::\Ir. G. P. l3AR:'~ES (Wancicl.): I am ,-ery g-lad that the State is turning its attention in ,;-o1nc direction-although it may not l1e a::, t-:.dly a.s C\.Cl~tually n1ight be 11CL'l & ar, -to the making of bcttc.r prO\-ision for electrical workrrs. I suppose there is scarc~lv a branch of life that \Ye could put the finger upon to-day that betokens greater develop­rnrnt and 1s gc1ng to open out 1n a \vidcr way in connection with land matters than electricity. Power may be required to help

1927-4 0

in developmental work. Anyone \yho­aylproaches the qu€'stioa of electrical power c-ul \-i:-ualise •,hat is in store for us in that dircctio:a. Every country is giv-ing atten­tion in somo way or other to hj-dro-electric power. \1 onclcrfnl hydro-dcctric \Yorks are bcjng cciablished in the Gl'afton district just over our bDrder. Tasn1ania has also given "\vondcrhJ attention in that direction. The Stat y,·hich can proYide cheap power-and that is aLout. the cheape,t power obtainable -will . be ublo to oifer very great and wonderful induccmeH!c. I am glad this Bill has been introduced, because it will train ,, orkcrs to enable them to fill the bill in 1nany directions. Ono fact about this n1easure that appeals to me is that it repeals tht: old ~"-et. I often ''ish that, instead of the 1nany amending Bills which \Ve pass ever:v ~c~~lon .. \Ve woulJ do just as is being done on this occasion-repeal the old Act and draft a Dill on new liues.

The provision constitutir;g the board with nine nu~rnber.s is certainly cue that doe•, not commend itself to members on this side of tlie House. Doncls or committees of that size are invariably unworkable. It is far better to have a le~ser number of quite depenchtbie men, as they would be able to carry out the \York far more dl'ective!y, al1'l, perhaps, the workers would be much n1on~ in accord than \Vhen the nun1ber is greater. That also applies to Government and semi-Government activities which might br~ ad1ninistered bv a conunission. Five 1nen1Uer·s are c,:rtairi'ly an1plE to compose the boa;·d to carry out the l.msinus dealt with by this Bill.

:J.ly prir.ciral n1otiYe in ri~ing was in con­nection "'IYith a n1.tttcr which is .:hno~t becom­ing a fetish \vrth hon. nL'lnbePs oppo3ite. I can put rny fms:er on inciiYidnals \Yho rn.ight be debarred. H drtu:::e 6 1s too stnctly adhered to. fl'Onl r r~tf'rillg this YCl'Y inYiting Yocatluu. 'rihi.s culling rs a gro\Ying one, and 1ts necc ,si tic's v;ili ;,;raclually develop. L~nless \YB are li 1_cral to SOlllC degree -.,ye shall prevent nutny an eligible 1nan, who n1av find .it too late to enter into an appren­tic:€ship, to obtain an appointrnent under thi,, Bill. I ho]JC the :\iinister \\'ill sec his way clear to giYe eYel'Y encouragcn1ent ~o en a hie ~uch men as I epcak of to enter th1s calling. I bclicYe t:_at clause 7 gives some eneouragcn1ent in that direction. and possibly a \Yard or two addcc: there might make that r cpect of it J1erfectly clear. \Ye \V ant in every po"ible way to noeet th,, ambitions of rnen iu tais direction. lt is exceedingly wise to guard againf:.t 111i_~tits who rnay suffer much through inabiJit:-' and inefficiency. \\'ith the sc.tegnards proYidecl by thio; Bill, ! r:arcel:v think 1ve l1aYe a great deal to, fe_.r in that direction.

I wish now to refer puticularly to the inquisitorial clause~ of the Bill. It puzzles me \vhy tt1e Labour Govf nm1ent appear to h~, YC such a suspicion a_, to \varrant such a c1au~c as tl-at relating to the inspection of premise, and the' right of an industrial in.;;pector to exar11in~j books, interrogate l'l1Ipioyers, etc. Til-<t- ~lJirit of suspicion has camccl uch of the lr -s \\'hich this country i3 ~uffcring- frorn to-day. It is not a good ~pirit to f.!ngcndeJ·~ and the sooner it is reali~~:d tL u 111C'n wi-:o carry on busine.s~<:5 are llctuated bv l10nouubie motives in the majority of ca:c.s, the better it will be for ihe 8tatc.

I hope the Minister \vill see his way clear to extend the 20pc of the Bi:J so that mt%

Jlir. 0. P. Bm·ne.:.]

Electrical Workus Bill. [ASSEJYIBLY.] Questions.

with a certain a1nount of experience n1ay have an opportunity of qualifying and beco1ning ,,,rtiticated.

Mr. FH.Y (li:urilpll): This Bill covers a spccialiscJ ti'adc, and one >vhich to my mind deJ:nand.s _gre~t efficiency. The extent to which electricity is availed of at present . and its gre:,t scope in th<> future demand that ~hos,_; engaged in the industry should be so efficient that tho use of this commodity n1av be aYailed of with every degree of safotv. I particularlv stress that those at presc:nt engaged in the calling should bo given every opportunity to advance to the highe,t positions offering. We know that almost ever> Act of Parliament restricts the privileges of someone; but, considering the great scope for development in electricity and the gr01t progress that is being made in every country nf the world to-day, 'no restriction should be placed on young men .becoming experienced in this calling. It is very difficult in most cases for a young man at twenty years of age to becli!me .apprenticed and to complete his apprentice­ship without hardship. It may be that he belongs to a family the parents of which are not well-to-do, and to apprentice him would be a hardship not only upon himself ,but also upon his family. That is a case in which enry sympathy should be shown. I am by no means advocating inefficiency. Eflicienev must be the keynote of the mea­sure, otli:erwise it will be worthleso.

I should abo like to see inserted in the Bill a cbuse providing for reciprocity between the States of Australia. So far as I can see, those who como from over"eas will be able to practise here, but those who come from the other States of the Commonwealth will be unable to do so. On tho other hand, assuming that the otlwr States also paso an Electrical 'V\' orkers Act. thev in turn will prevent our Queensland lads from practising in their States. It may be that a boy from this State mav go to liYe in one of the ,other States of Australia, but. if he is an electrician and the Act of that State is framed on the lines of the Queensland Act, it will be useless for him to go to that State. Therefore a <:;:ueensland electrician will haye to remain i1i Queensland for all time, as he will ha vc no opportunity of prac­tising in an,· other State of Australia. I would sug-gest that a clause bo inserted in I he Bill providing for reciprocity, at the board',, discretion, b·etween the States. I arn Eot :3nggosting that it should be opc~n to cyery person practising as an electrician in tlw other .States to co1ne to Queensland anLl flood the n1r1rkct here; but proyision for reciproeit:; sh,mld be put in the Bill. If that is not done. then the other States will follow our cxcmplc. It is with that iden, in mind that I an1 suggesting that f-uch a provision should be placed in thi' Bill.

8rr ~kinc:; candidl,v, I tl1ink the number of members proposed for the electrical "·orkt•r; board is too Jargc. I asnHYlC that the rt:'al object cf creating a board is for the pur­po~e of carryiug out the intcr.tions of Pnr· limnent. If that is what is ain1cd at, then you could get the sarne l'l sult with a board of five. I an1 not concerned 2 bout th · CP1plo~·Ns· representation at all. \Vhat I am trying to get at is the effcct1Yc achninis­traticn of an AC't of Parlian1ent. This board shoul·d be constituted of two omployoc5' repre· ;;;entatives. one elecb·jc P-uthorities' rcprc~ ,,0ntativc .. on~ private en111loyers' reprcsenta-

[11Ir. G. P, Barnes.

tive, and one Governnu~nt representative, who should be the chairman of the board. That seems quite sufficient. To have a board of nine suggests to me only one thing, and that i5 that there is a fear that they will nor be able to get a quorum. If anybody take,; a seat on this board, he should be prepared to act up to the fullest extent of his power . I certainly do not support the inclusion of an insurance and fire underwriter5' representa­ti.-e. The question of insurance and safe. guards against fire could be attended to by a board of five just as well as by a board of nine. Taking it by and large, I support the principle of the Bill, but I would like to see some alterations in order that the B,1, may work efficiently when it is put into operation.

I am sure the Minister will realise that there are good grounds for the suggestions which I have made. I want the Bill to be so framed that it will operate for the benefit of our Queensland boys, and I want to give our boys the opportunity of working in other States under conditions of reciprocity. There may not be similar legislation in force at present in the other States, but it will undoubtedly follow in due course; and, if the principle of reciprocity obtains under this Bill, it will naturally be adopted in the sub:·,equont legislation of other States. It does not follow that it should be possible for workers from the other States to come here indiscriminately. \Ve have too many of our own people unemployed for whom wo have to provide at the present time; but we should have reciprocity. Of course, the board will be cm powered to consider the personal character of applicants for appoint­ment to do the work required.

Question-That the Bill be now read a second time-put and passed.

Consideration of th<> Bill in Committee made an Order of the Day for Tuc;day next.

The Home adjourned at 4.24 p.m.

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