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John Edward Hoban W i tness S t a t e m e n t 09.07.19
Your background and exper ience
1 . Please can you exp ia in w h a t qua i i f i ca t ions and t r a i n i ng y o u had received p r io r t o t h e
Gren fe l l T o w e r p ro jec t in m a t t e r s re l evan t t o bu i l d i ng con t ro l ?
M y qual i f icat ions are as l isted on my C.V. under the heading professional membersh ip and
key qual i f icat ions.
2. Please can y o u p rov ide a copy of y o u r CV and exh ib i t t h a t t o y o u r f u r t h e r s t a t e m e n t ?
Please see a t tached exhib i t JEH/6.
3. W h a t c o n t i n u i n g t ra in inR or pro fess iona l d e v e l o p m e n t ac t iv i t ies d id y o u u n d e r t a k e
in t h e 10 years p r io r t o y o u r w o r k on t h e Gren fe l l p ro jec t r e l evan t t o y o u r ro le as
bu i l d i ng c o n t r o l surveyor? Please p rov ide as m u c h in fomna t ion as y o u can inc lud ing
dates and any par t i cu la r cou rses /even ts .
I a t tach a copy o f my personnel record cover ing the per iod o f my e m p l o y m e n t at RBKC,
JEH/7. This ou t l ines the con t inu ing t ra in ing and professional deve lopmen t I under took .
Add i t iona l ly , I also a t tended seminars, paid fo r by mysel f and in my o w n t i m e , re lat ing to
Bui ld ing Cont ro l mat te rs . For example , I a t t ended a t ra in ing seminar opera ted by ABE (now
called t h e Char tered Associat ion of Bui ld ing Engineers) on 08.11.12.1 also v iewed webinars
on roo f l ights and Park K o f t h e Bui lding Regulat ions on 07.01.17, sustainable steel bui ldings
on 11.04.117 and de te rm in ing means o f escape re BS9999 (by RICS) on 11.06.17.
4 . H o w w o u l d y o u ensure t h a t y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f bu i l d ing c o n t r o l m a t t e r s r e m a i n e d
cu r ren t and up t o da te?
By:
(i) A t t end ing In house seminars on Bui ld ing Regulat ion mat te rs wh ich w o u l d be
organised f r o m t i m e t o t ime w h e n new Regulat ions came in to force a n d / o r
Regulat ions w e r e a m e n d e d .
(ii) A t t end ing in house seminars w h e n new Approved Documents w e r e issued or
exist ing ones we re a m e n d e d .
1 John Edward Hoban
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(iii) A t tend ing f r o m t i m e t o t ime seminars prov ided by manufac tu re rs and o the r
organisat ions re lat ing t o Bui lding Regulat ion mat te rs .
(iv) Reading technica l l i te ra ture and o the r i n fo rma t i on re lat ing t o products /sys tems.
(v) Reading technica l gu idance notes re lat ing t o Bui ld ing Regulat ion mat ters .
(vi) Reading my professional associat ion's magazine.
(vii) Contact ing technica l depa r tmen ts o f manufac tu re rs and p roduc t providers w h e n I
needed advice on such mat te rs .
(vi i i) Read and l is ten t o art ic les re lat ing t o Bui lding ma t te rs and Bui ld ing Regulat ions in
the media and press.
(ix) Speaking t o ex col leagues regular ly and w e w o u l d o f t en talk abou t wo rk re la ted
mat te rs .
Your Role
5. W h e n w e r e y o u a p p o i n t e d as bu i l d ing con t ro l su rveyor f o r t h e Gren fe l l Towe r
p ro jec t?
I cannot recall t he exact date bu t the records I have seen indicate it was in December 2013.
6 W h e n d id y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t in t h e Grenfe l l T o w e r p ro jec t end?
A r o u n d the t i m e t h a t t h e Bui ld ing Regulat ions Cert i f icate was issued. I w o u l d need to v iew
RBKC Acola id system t o p rov ide an exact da te , I w o u l d suggest RBKC could prov ide a f i r m
answer .
7 W e r e t h e r e any t i m e s a f t e r y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t on t h e p ro jec t w h e n y o u w e r e unab le
t o car ry o u t y o u r du t i es - i f so , please exp la in w h y and p r o v i d e any dates o f
absence?
There we re ind iv idual days w h e r e I was no t at w o r k due t o a t tend ing personal
appo in tmen ts . Some o f these days coincided w i t h meet ings t h a t t ook place on site in my
absence.
There was a longer per iod o f absence w h e n I had an ope ra t i on t o my nose be tween 24.08.15
t o 15.09.15.
8 In para 36 o f y o u r w i t ness s t a t e m e n t y o u s ta te " I m a d e decis ions in re la t ion t o B2, B3
and B4 ." Please exp la in w h y you refer t o B4 in th is paragraph w h e n dea l ing w i t h t h e
i n t e r i o r of t h e bu i ld ing?
W h e n I am look ing at a par t icu lar e l emen t o f a bui ld ing I take in to cons iderat ion o the r parts
of t he Bui lding Regulat ions.
2 John Edward Hoban
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9 Simi lar ly in para 4 1 dea l ing w i t h t h e cha in of dec is ion mak ing f o r t h e i n te r i o r , you
s ta te t h a t y o u m a d e decis ions In re la t i on t o B2. B3 and B5.
a. Do y o u m e a n B5 here o r shou ld th is read B4?
Yes tha t was an e r r o r and should read B4. And it shou ld also include w h e r e necessary
a f te r consu l ta t ion w i t h Paul Hanson and John Al len.
b. You also say Paul Hanson m a d e decis ions in re la t i on t o B l and B5. Does th is m e a n you
b o t h made dec is ion unde r B l and B5? If so. please descr ibe t h e d iv is ion of
respons ib i l i t y b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u .
In re la t ion t o ma t t e r s under 8 1 and 85,1 w o u l d defer t o Paul Hanson's exper ience and ,
in e f fec t , t he decisions were being made by h im in respect o f these areas.
In respect o f t he d iv is ion o f responsib i l i ty be tween us I w o u l d consul t w i t h Paul Hanson
on ma t te rs per ta in ing t o 8 1 and 85. Paul Hanson's role w i t h i n RBKC, as I unders tood it,
was t o p rov ide advice and assistance on such mat te rs t o the Surveyors as and w h e n
reques ted (in respect o f Fire Regulat ions mat ters) on projects o f th is scale.
c. W e r e y o u ob l i ged by m a n a g e m e n t d i r e c t ! v e / p r o t o c o l t o f o l l o w t h e advice o f t h e
means o f escape g roup? Under w h a t c i rcumstances w o u l d t h e advice no t be
f o l l o w e d / a d o p t e d ?
I was no t ob l iged t o the fo l l ow advice p rov ided by the Fire Regulat ions g roup (aka means
o f escape g roup ) .
I am not aware n o t aware o f any m a n a g e m e n t d i rec t i ve / p ro toco l .
Advice w o u l d no t be f o l l owed if t he Surveyor o r manager disagreed w i t h said advice.
However , as far as I recall I a lways f o l l owed the Fire Regulat ions group 's advice in
respect o f t h e Grenfe l l Tower re fu rb i shmen t .
10 . Fur ther t o paragraphs 38 & 39 o f y o u r f i r s t s t a t e m e n t , can y o u n o w say w h e n such
dec is ions w e r e m a d e ?
I was re fe r r ing t o hand w r i t t e n notes and physical diar ies. M y unders tand ing n o w is t ha t
these canno t be located. As such 1 am not able t o answer th is ques t ion .
The Full Plans A p p l i c a t i o n
3 John Edward Hoban
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11. Was t h e r e a f o r m a l process used by RBKC bui id i r iE c o n t r o l f o r fu l l plans app l ica t ions?
Was th is s u p p o r t e d by any pol icy d o c u m e n t s , and if so w h a t w e r e they?
Yes there was a f o rma l process. The d o c u m e n t is RBKC d o c u m e n t P6, p roduced by John
A l len .
12. Fol lowinR rece ip t o f t h e app l i ca t i on f o r m fo r t h e r e f u r b i s h m e n t w o r k s t o Gren fe l l
T o w e r f r o m S tud io E d a t e d 5 August 2014, w a s a dec is ion no t i ce ever issued? If n o t ,
w h y no t?
I do no t know i f a decision not ice was ever issued.
If i t was no t t h e n I do no t know w h y no t . I comp le ted t h e s tandard f o rm (Form 60) and a
schedule o f cond i t ions and in fo rmat i ves in o rde r f o r t h e decision not ice t o be processed
by the Bui ld ing Cont ro l Business Suppor t Team.
13. If a dec is ion no t i ce w a s issued - t o w h o m was i t d i rec ted?
It w o u l d have been t h e Agent , Studio E.
14. If t h e r e w a s no dec is ion no t i ce , h o w w e r e t h e Fire Service c o m m e n t s made u n d e r
t h e Regu la to ry R e f o r m (Fire Safety) O rde r 2005 resu l t ing f r o m t h e s ta tu to r y
consu l t a t i on , passed t o t h e app l i can t?
At the t i m e Bui ld ing Cont ro l w o u l d no t have necessari ly k n o w n had the decision not ice,
f o r some reason or o ther , no t been issued.
Bui ld ing con t ro l w o u l d be responsible fo r passing c o m m e n t s by the Fire Service t o the
Appl icant . The App l icant 's detai ls w o u l d be on the Full Plans App l ica t ion , t he Decision
not ice and on Aco la id .
15. W h a t w a s t h e process a d o p t e d by RBKC fo r app rova l o f t h e des ign fo r t h e
r e f u r b i s h m e n t o f Gren fe l l Tower?
It w o u l d have been t h e process as ou t l i ned in John Al len 's d o c u m e n t P5. Add i t iona l ly
t h e r e w o u l d be meet ings and discussions be tween myself , t he Arch i tec t , possibly the
pr inc ipal con t rac to r and such.
a. W h e r e can w e see t h e design w h i c h was a p p r o v e d by bu i l d i ng c o n t r o l ; and
In t h e Full Plans App l i ca t ion .
4 John Edward Hoban
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b. H o w w a s any app rova l by bu i l d ing con t ro l c o m m u n i c a t e d ?
This w o u l d be specif ied in the decis ion not ice.
16. W h a t was t h e m e t h o d o f re lay ing c o m m e n t s / d e c i s i o n s o n s u b m i t t e d deta i ls and
w h e r e w e r e these c o m m e n t s / d e c i s i o n s recorded?
This w o u l d take place via emai ls , t e l ephone conversat ions, meet ings on site and in the
o f f i ce , p rov id ing w r i t t e n and verba l c o m m e n t s and notes made on plans. The key
comments /dec is ions w o u l d be recorded on the f i le (on the physical f i le o r Acolaid).
17 . In para 115 o f y o u r f i rs t s t a t e m e n t y o u re fe r t o t h e bu i l d ing con t ro l m a n a g e m e n t
po l icy .
a. Was th is a f o r m a l w r i t t e n policy?
No.
b. Are you able t o prov ide a copy?
No, as per above.
c. Please descr ibe w h a t the pol icy was and w h a t was actual ly done in pract ice?
The pol icy was in t roduced by John Jackson (Head o f Bui lding Contro l ) some years
pr io r t o the Grenfe l l Tower re fu rb i shmen t .
The pol icy was t h a t at t he conclus ion of a j o b t h e area surveyor f o r t h a t j ob w o u l d
w e e d t h e f i le .
Documents t h a t w o u l d be w e e d e d o u t w o u l d typical ly be Design calculat ions and
eng ineer ing records, exist ing plans, speci f icat ions (in some cases), deta i led drawings
on parts o f t h e works (such as doo r schedules), schedules o f sani tary wa re , detai ls o f
cupboards and such, co lour speci f icat ions
18 . In para 110 y o u s ta te t h a t a m e n d m e n t s t o t h e fu l l p lans app l i ca t ion w e r e s u b m i t t e d in
e lec t ron ic , paper and hard copy?
a. W h a t w a s t h e p ro toco l in RBKC BC f o r reco rd ing t h e rece ip t o f , and t h e ma te r i a l
i n f o r m a t i o n w i t h i n , a m e n d m e n t s t o a f u l l p lans app l i ca t ion?
I am not aware o f a f o rma l p ro toco l fo r th is .
5 John Edward Hoban
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b. For Gren fe l l T o w e r , h o w d id you and o t h e r personne l record and keep t rack o f
a m e n d m e n t s ?
I kept a plan check record sheet and notes. This w o u l d have been placed on f i le and
l ikely t o have u l t imate ly w e e d e d ou t .
c. Did you record these a m e n d m e n t s ?
Yes, see above.
d . D id y o u run a bu i l d ing c o n t r o l t racker f o r Gren fe l l T o w e r ?
No. I used a plan check record sheet instead.
19. Gren fe l l T o w e r is o w n e d by RBKC/TMO: d i d t h i s in f luence t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h t h e
a p p l i c a t i o n / p r o j e c t w a s dea l t w i t h ?
From m y invo lvement , no.
Aco la id
20. Can y o u exp la i n , in genera l t e r m s , h o w y o u used Acola id w h e n car ry ing o u t you r
bu i l d i ng c o n t r o l f unc t i ons?
I w o u l d use Acola id t o :
Draf t le t ters .
Dra f t ing s tandard le t ters.
Placing i m p o r t a n t emai ls on t h e sys tem.
Recording mean ing fu l responses.
Record site vis i t notes.
Stor ing notes on te lephone conversat ions w h e n I considered it necessary t o do so.
Recording decisions on Bui lding Cont ro l .
Logging dangerous cond i t ions and w o r k pract ices on si te.
21. D id y o u f o l l o w any p ro toco ls o r pol ic ies f o r using Aco la id ( inc lud ing any user gu ide)
No, as far as I a m aware there w e r e no pro toco ls o r policies fo r such.
22. W h a t was the m e t h o d by w h i c h i n f o r m a t i o n was reco rded / l ogged in Aco la id - d i d
you t y p e in i n f o r m a t i o n d i rec t l y o n t o t h a t sys tem or w e r e o thers invo lved and h o w
d i d t h a t process w o r k ?
6 John Edward Hoban
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A person w o u l d log in and select any user on the sys tem. Once a user had been selected
the person could make ent r ies as they w ished . I, and o thers , t yped i n fo rma t i on in
Acola id d i rect ly .
23. D id y o u t rans fe r all y o u r s i te inspec t ion notes d i rec t t o Aco la id?
As far as I recal l , yes. Having seen the si te notes it w o u l d appear t h a t some o f the notes
are no longer recorded proper ly .
24. W e r e t h e no tes on Aco la id t h a t can be seen fo r each inspec t ion of t h e Gren fe l l Towe r
p ro jec t w r i t t e n by you? Please i den t i f y any w h i c h w e r e n o t w r i t t e n by you?
Yes w i t h the except ion o f t w o notes deta i led be low.
Site no te da ted 15 th o f May , 2015 ( I am no t cer ta in if th is par t icu lar no te was w r i t t e n by
m y s e l f ) .
Site no te by John Al len da ted 24 th o f M a r c h , 2016. This si te no te w o u l d appear to be cut
and paste f r o m an emai l f r o m John Al len t o David Hughes on t h e 24 th o f M a r c h , 2016 at
09.53hrs w i t h me being cc 'd .
25. D id y o u have access t o t h e p lann ing sec t ion of Acola id? I f so, can y o u exp la in h o w
y o u used t h a t and w h e t h e r y o u ever l ooked up i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h e p lann ing
aspects o f t h e Gren fe l l T o w e r p ro jec t?
Yes 1 d id a l though I canno t recal l n o w if th is was fu l l o r rest r ic ted access.
Ex ter io r design and comp l iance w i t h t h e Bu i ld ing Ac t 1984 and Bu i ld ing Regulat ions
2010
26. W h a t was t h e des ign f o r t h e ex te r i o r re -c ladd ing w h i c h was a p p r o v e d by RBKC
b u i l d i n g con t ro l ?
Accord ing t h e designs I saw con ta ined in the emai l f r o m Neil Crawford on 24.09.14 at
1630 (SEA00000223_0003) con ta in ing e levat ion drawings 1279 SEA (05) 1 0 0 - 1 0 3
( revOl ) , the c ladding mater ia l t o be used was speci f ied as Zinc panels and A l u m i n i u m
panels t o be used as ind icated in t h e drawings .
27. D id y o u r e v i e w t h e p roposed des ign f o r t h e ex te r i o r c ladd ing on t h e t o w e r ? If so.
w h e n d i d you d o t h a t and w h e r e is t h a t recorded?
John Edward Hoban
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Yes I d id . I w o u l d have recorded th is e i ther on my p lan check record sheet o r my physical
d iary o r o the r no tes kep t on f i le . I do no t have access t o these any longer and these may
no longer be avai lable fo r inspect ions.
28. W h a t s u p p o r t i n g d o c u m e n t a t i o n ( i f any) was s u b m i t t e d t o ind ica te t h a t t h e
mater ia ls ins ta l led on t h e ex te r io r of Gren fe l l T o w e r ( inc lud ing t h e ra inscreen
panels , t h e i nsu la t i on , t h e cav i ty bar r ie rs ) c o m p l i e d w i t h t h e re levan t Bu i ld ing
Regulat ions?
Not as far as I can recal l .
29 . You re fer t o d r a w i n g 1279 SEA (05) 101 00 Proposed N o r t h E levat ion RevOl a t para
53 o f y o u r f i rs t w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t - w e r e t h e r e any o t h e r d raw ings or techn ica l
spec i f ica t ions re levan t t o t h e design o f t h e re fu rb ished ex te rna l wa l l w h i c h y o u w e r e
p rov ided w i t h ?
Apar t f r o m some emai ls t ha t were s u b m i t t e d , no t t h a t I recal l .
30 . In para 74. regard ing decis ions made a b o u t t h e c ladd ing etc . you state t h a t " o t h e r
pa r t i es " m a d e decis ions in re la t i on t o t h e c ladd ing , i nsu la t i on , w i n d o w s and f ix ings.
W h o w e r e t h e o t h e r par t ies and w h a t decis ions are you re fe r r ing t o here?
By o the r par t ies invo lved in t h e pro jec t and I w o u l d expect the cont rac t t o specify w i t h
w h o m those dut ies and responsibi l i t ies l ie. Typical ly I w o u l d be consul ted once a
decision had been made in o rder f o r my approva l or commen ts to be cons idered.
3 1 . Was t h e ove r -c ladd ing addressed f r o m a s t ruc tu ra l perspect ive? Was i t cons idered
by t h e RBKC s t ruc tu ra l eng ineer?
I cannot c o m m e n t on th is and bel ieve t h a t t he RBKC st ructura l engineer w o u l d be best
placed to answer .
3 2 . In paragraph 17 o f y o u r f i rs t w i t ness s t a t e m e n t , y o u say t h e mod i f i ca t i ons t o t h e
t o w e r w e r e c o m p l i a n t w i t h t h e re levan t Regu la to ry reg ime " m e d i a plans t h a t I
saw, and inspec t ions I and o t h e r m e m b e r s of bu i l d i ng con t ro l car r ied o u t " .
a. W h i c h p lans d i d y o u see w h i c h i nd i ca ted t h a t th is w a s t h e case?
The plans t h a t w e r e received and kept on f i le .
John Edward Hoban
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b. O n w h a t basis do y o u say t h a t " subsequen t t o t h e f i re i t became appa ren t
t h a t f i re s t o p p i n g / f i r e breaks w a s n o t s u f f i c i e n t " - w h a t precisely are you
re fe r r i ng t o here?
From repor ts shown on te lev is ion and given in the press, ev idence given t o the
PI by exper t wi tnesses on t h e subject . From my recol lect ion o f these news
repor ts and the ev idence p rov ided , i t was stated tha t cavity barr iers were not
p rov ided in cer ta in locat ions and t h e w i n d o w s did no t have cavi ty barr iers as
shown in paragraph 9.13, B3 o f App roved Document B.
33. In paragraph 2 1 o f y o u r w i t ness s t a t e m e n t y o u say " As fa r as I can te l l n o w , t h e
w i n d o w s w e r e n o t f i t t e d in accordance w i t h t h e Bu i ld ing Regula t ions. They w e r e no t
c o m p l i a n t as i t appeared t h e f i re bar r ie rs w e r e n o t ins ta l led cor rec t l y and t h e f i re
s t o p p i n g hadn ' t been sealed cor rec t l y " .
a. Please exp la in in w h a t respects y o u say the w i n d o w s w e r e n o t c o m p l i a n t
w i t h t h e Bu i ld ing Regulat ions?
This c o m m e n t was made as a resul t o f t he news repor ts I saw subsequent t o the f i re
and evidence heard by t h e PI. M y bel ief n o w is t h a t t he f r a m e w o r k suppor t ing the
w i n d o w s and infi l l panels w e r e no t const ruc ted o f steel w i t h a m i n i m u m thickness o f
0 . 5 m m (as shown in paragraph 9.3, B3 o f Approved Documen t B.
b. Was t h a t ev i den t f r o m t h e p l a n s / d r a w i n g s / i n f o r m a t i o n y o u w e r e p r o v i d e d
w i t h d u r i n g t h e pro jec t?
I cannot answer th is w i t h o u t hav ing sight o f t he re levant p lans/drawings.
c. W h a t do y o u m e a n by " f i r e ba r r i e r s " in th is con tex t?
1 was re fer r ing to cavity barr iers.
d . W h a t do y o u mean by " f i r e s t o p p i n g " in th is con tex t?
I was re fer r ing to f i re s topp ing as ou t l i ned in paragraph 10.2 B3 o f Approved
Documen t B wh ich states "if a fire separating element is to be effective, every joint
or imperfection of fit, or opening to allow services to pass through the element,
should be adequately protected by sealing or fire-stopping so that the fire resistance
of the element is not impaired".
e. Did y o u ever raise concerns a b o u t t h e comp l iance o f t h e w i n d o w s at any
stage d u r i n g t h e p ro jec t?
9 John Edward Hoban
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Possibly. Dur ing site visits I w o u l d make physical no ted in my A3 no tebook and raise
any concerns w i t h the site manager o r the person escor t ing me . I have been
i n fo rmed RBKC cannot locate my no tebook .
Addi t iona l ly , ema i l f r o m David Hughes on 12.01.16 at 1620 (RYD00063791_0001)
states t h a t raised the issue o f f i re s topp ing du r ing a site visit . This cou ld relate t o the
w i n d o w s bu t w i t h o u t sight o f my notes I cannot be sure.
f. Did y o u inspect t h e f i t t i n g o f t h e w i n d o w s d u r i n g t h e p ro jec t - if so, w h a t d id
you observe?
No, I may have seen parts o f t he f i t t i ng process bu t I d id no t inspect the actual f i t t i ng
o f t he w i n d o w s in its en t i re ty .
34. In para 57 o f y o u r w i tness s t a t e m e n t , you s ta te , " on t h e i n f o r m a t i o n I had at t h e t i m e
i t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i t [ the ex te r io r o f t h e bu i l d ing as r e f u r b i s h e d ! was
c o m p l i a n t . "
a. W h a t submiss ions , d raw ings , d o c u m e n t s led y o u t o be l ieve t h a t t h e
p roposed des ign w a s c o m p l i a n t ?
All o f t h e mater ia l subm i t t ed t o me at t he re levant t i m e and discussions on the top ic
led me to f o r m th is v iew. And no concerns we re raised by any o f t he f i re
exper ts /consu l tan ts , and no App l ica t ion was made t o indicate tha t they were no t
using ma te r ia l o f Class O standard as per Para 12.6 of Sect ion B4 o f Approved
Documen t B (and inc lud ing d iagram 40 ) .
b. W h a t w a s t h e m e t h o d o f comp l iance w h i c h was be ing a d o p t e d in respect o f
t h e B4 r e q u i r e m e n t ?
From t h e meet ings I a t t ended it was my unders tand ing t h a t t h e m e t h o d of
compl iance t h a t was be ing adop ted in respect o f B4 was tha t shown in Approved
d o c u m e n t B.
c. Did y o u ever e n q u i r e as t o t h e m e t h o d o f comp l i ance f o r t h e 84
r e q u i r e m e n t ?
Yes I d i d .
d . D id you eve r reques t deta i ls o f t h e mater ia ls w h i c h w e r e p roposed t o be
used as p a r t of t h e ex te r i o r re-c ladding? If so w h e n and t o w h o m d id y o u
make t h a t reques t?
10 John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0010 RBK00050416/10
The detai ls w e r e subm i t t ed in t h e in i t ia l submiss ion. I also discussed the mater ia l
w i t h t h e Harley's engineer w h o had i n f o rmed me tha t the c ladding system had been
f i t t e d t o many bui ldings t h r o u g h o u t England and Wales to bui ldings o f a s imi lar
height and cons t ruc t ion .
e. Did y o u reques t s ight of any f i re tes ts repo r t s in re la t ion t o t h e c ladding?
No.
f. W h a t c o n t e m p o r a n e o u s records (if any) d id y o u make w h i c h re f lec ted y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e ex te r i o r o f t h e bu i l d ing w o u l d be comp l i an t w i t h the
Bu i ld ing Regula t ions?
I cannot say f o r cer ta in w h e t h e r such notes w e r e made bu t had I made such notes
they w o u l d have been on f i le and most probably weeded ou t .
g. D id you check on t h e t es ted and spec i f ied ins ta l l a t i on m e t h o d f o r t h e cav i ty
bar r iers w i t h i n t h e c ladding?
No. 1 was no t t ra ined t o do th is .
In para 57 y o u s ta te " t h e c ladd ing has n o w been s h o w n n o t t o be c o m p l i a n t as a resu l t
o f t h e c ladd ing t h a t was spec i f ied w o u l d be used was n o t in fact u s e d " and in para 59
y o u s ta te " The c ladd ing sys tem was n o t c o m p l a i n t P l e a s e s ta te :
a. W h a t y o u m e a n by " c l a d d i n g " in th is con tex t?
I am re fe r r ing t o the var ious c o m p o n e n t i.e t h e rain screen c ladding panels
(mater ia l ) , t h e suppor t ing f r a m e w o r k , screws bol ts etc, t h e cavity barr iers and f i l ler
mate r ia l .
b. W h a t " c l a d d i n g " was spec i f ied and app roved by RBKC bu i l d i ng con t ro l?
I w o u l d have t o see t h e f i le t o answer proper ly . M y unders tand ing is t h a t t he
c ladding w o u l d mee t the requ i remen ts o f B3 and 84.
c. On w h a t basis do y o u say "The c ladd ing has n o w been s h o w n no t t o be
c o m p l i a n t " in w h a t respects do y o u say t h e c ladd ing was non -comp l i an t?
1 say th is on the basis w h a t I have seen in the news and heard in respect o f the
exper t ev idence prov ided t o the PI. In respect o f h o w the c ladding was non
comp la in t , I re fer you t o m y previous s ta temen t o f 30.11.18 para 6 1 . Addi t ional ly , it
also appears the re was a lack of cavity barr iers (as per news repor ts regarding the
ev idence p rov ided t o PI).
John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416/11
36. In para 53 you s ta te "The in i t ia l des ign was a l u m i n i u m faced insu la ted panels, ceramic
coa ted insu la ted glass pane ls , f i xed and p i v o t hung glazed un i ts , zinc panel c ladd ing
( res ident ia l ) and a l u m i n i u m ra in screen c ladd ing t o w a l k w a y s plus one , w a l k w a y and
mezzan ine " .
a. Please can y o u s ta te w h a t mate r ia ls w e r e s h o w n as be ing used f o r t h e
c ladd ing a t levels 4-23 o f t h e bu i l d i ng in th is in i t i a l design (giv ing re ferences
t o d r a w i n g s / p l a n s o r o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n as approp r ia te )?
The mater ia ls s h o w n are zinc ( c rown e lements ) , A l u m i n i u m faced insulated panels,
glazed uni ts and zinc spandrel panel c ladding.
This is re f lec ted in drawings 1279 (05) 100 00 to 103 00, rev 1 .
37. In para 63. in answer t o a ques t i on w h o w a s respons ib le f o r any fa i lures in
comp l iance w i t h t h e regu la to ry reg ime , y o u s ta te " t h e pe rson /pe rsons w h o chose t o
change t h e spec i f i ca t ion w i t h o u t n o t i f y i n g bu i l d ing con t ro l us ing mater ia ls t h a t d i d
n o t c o m p l y w i t h t h e prescr ibed s t anda rds " please e x p l a i n :
a. W h i c h pe rson /pe rsons are y o u re fe r r ing t o here?
I do no t k n o w . I was n o t a par ty t o the organ isat ion (or organisat ions) w h o made
those decisions. And I d id not know t h a t such decisions w e r e made unt i l a f te r t he
f i re .
b. W h a t no t i f i ca t i on w a s g iven t o bu i l d i ng c o n t r o l a b o u t the mater ia ls t h a t
w o u l d be used f o r t h e ex te r io r c ladd ing?
As ou t l i ned in t h e drawings re fer red t o in para 26 above. And in emai ls
RYD00037742_0001 - RYD00037742_0006, RYD00037836_0001 -
RYD00037836_0007 (and the drawings m e n t i o n e d in those emai ls). This also incudes
drawings 1279 (06) 110 0 0 , 1 2 0 0 0 , 1 2 1 00 and C1059_325 Rev C.
38. In para 6 1 y o u s ta te t h a t " The c ladd ing ins ta l led d id n o t f o l l o w t h e gu idance in sect ion
12 o f A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B. For examp le i t was no t class O mate r ia l and t h e r e is a
q u e s t i o n mark a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e insu la t ion ma te r i a l was cons t ruc ted of mater ia ls of
l i m i t e d c o m b u s t i b i l i t y ." Please s ta te :
a. W h i c h par ts o f sec t ion 12 of A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B do y o u say w e r e n o t
f o l l o w e d ?
John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416/12
Again, f r o m repor ts shown on te lev is ion and given in the press, evidence given to
the PI by exper t wi tnesses on t h e sub jec t my bel ief is t h a t t he Celotex insulat ion
board ing and f i l ler mater ia l used on t h e pro ject was no t o f l imi ted combust ib i l i ty as
per Append ix A paragraph 9 o f App roved d o c u m e n t B.
The externa l surfaces o f t he ACM Cladding used/ f ixed did no t mee t w i t h the
provis ions set o u t in 12.5 - 1 2 . 6 B4 Approved Documen t B.
Add i t iona l ly , t h e cavity barr iers we re no t p rov ided in accordance w i t h paragraph
12.8 B4 and sect ion 9 B4 o f App roved Document B.
b. W h a t was " n o t class 0 m a t e r i a l " ?
Again, f r o m repor ts shown on te lev is ion and given in the press, evidence given to
t h e PI by exper t wi tnesses o n the subject my bel ief is t h a t t h e ACM cladding panels
w e r e no t o f Class 0 mate r ia l .
c. W h a t do y o u m e a n by "Class 0" in th is con tex t?
As per Append ix A o f Approved Documen t B and Diagram 40 o f Approved Document
B.
d . W h a t do y o u u n d e r s t a n d by t h e t e r m " l i m i t e d c o m b u s t i b i l i t y " in th is
con tex t?
It is a f i re tes t in respect o f a par t icu lar mater ia l to achieve a certa in s tandard under
tes t cond i t ions .
e. W h a t i n f o r m a t i o n w e r e y o u g iven a b o u t t h e mate r ia l s f o r t h e ex te r i o r
c ladd ing , i nc lud ing t h e i nsu la t i on ma te r i a l on Gren fe l l T o w e r ? (If you w e r e
g iven d i f f e r e n t i n f o r m a t i o n over t i m e , please exp la in ) .
O ther than t h a t ou t l i ned in para 37 B and 34 D above, I cannot recall.
39. In para 63 :
a. W h a t " p e r s o n / p e r s o n s " are you re fe r r i ng t o w h o y o u say changed t h e
spec i f i ca t ion and d i d n o t i n f o r m bu i l d i ng con t ro l?
I re fer you t o para 37 A above .
b. W h a t " p e r s o n / p e r s o n s " d o y o u say superv ised t h e i r w o r k and fa i led t o
13 John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0013 RBK00050416/13
not ice t h e change?
I did no t state the persons w h o supervised the work and fai led to not ice the change. I s ta ted t h e person/persons superv is ing t h e works . I expect th is w o u l d have been the Clerk o f W o r k s t o w h o carr ied o u t t h e c l ient 's responsibly t o ensure the qua l i ty of the w o r k and w h e t h e r they f o l l owed t h e detai ls he was prov ided w i t h .
40. W i t h re fe rence t o para 65. please s ta te :
a. W h i c h " in i t ia l d raw ings and deta i ls " y o u w e r e p rov ided w i t h ?
As per t h e emai l f r o m Neil C rawfo rd on 24.09.14 at 1630 (SEA00000223_0003)
con ta in ing numerous drawings.
Add i t iona l l y I bel ieve t h a t detai ls w e r e p rov ided f r o m JS Wr igh t and Company Ltd
w i t h regards t o t h e smoke ven t i ng system bu t I do no t cur rent ly have access t o this
mater ia l t o c o n f i r m .
And any drawings /de ta i l s t ha t we re con ta ined in the Full Plans App l ica t ion (if any).
b. W i t h re fe rence t o t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u " discussed t h e w o r k s w i t h t h e
a rch i tec t and his special ist consu l t an t dea l ing w i t h f i re m a t t e r s " .
( i) W h i c h a rch i tec t d id y o u have these discussions w i t h ?
Neil Crawford and col leagues o f his t h a t a t tended w i t h h im .
( i i ) W h o was t h e specia l is t consu l t an t dea l ing w i t h f i re m a t t e r s t h a t
you had these discussions w i t h ?
The company 's invo lved w e r e Max Fordham, Exova and Siderise. I
cannot recall t he specif ic indiv iduals. Please note t h a t JS W r i g h t
and Company Lts also dea l t w i t h smoke ven t ing sys tem.
( i i i ) W h e n d id you have these discussions?
The ma in mee t i ng took place on 24.11.14 ( ref lected on Acola id) . I
don ' t have the dates o f o the r meet ings tha t t ook place, th is w o u l d
have been recorded on t h e physical f i le.
( iv) W h a t w a s discussed o n each occasion?
14 John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0014 RBK00050416/14
I w o u l d need access t o the m inu tes o f the meet ings wh ich w o u l d
have been, if p rov ided , placed on the physical f i le . I w o u l d also
need access t o my handwr i t t en notes tha t I w o u l d have taken in
m y no te book (which is no longer avai lable).
(v) W h a t records , i f any , w e r e made o f w h a t w a s discussed?
See m y answer a t para 4 0 B ( iv).
41. You also re fer in para 65 t o a b r ie f d iscussion w i t h " t h e eng ineer f r o m t h e con t rac to rs
ins ta l l ing t h e c ladd ing sys tem t o the ex te r i o r o f t he bu i ld ing at t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f
t h e w o r k s t o t h e e x t e r i o r . "
a. W h o was t h e eng ineer f r o m t h e con t rac to rs ins ta l l ing t h e c ladd ing sys tem?
I canno t answer th is w i t h o u t access t o my notes.
b. W h e n d id y o u have these discussions?
The pr inc ipal con t rac to r ar ranged an a p p o i n t m e n t fo r me t o mee t w i t h th is
par t icu lar engineer dur ing the ear ly stages of t he works f o r t h e insta l lat ion of the
rain screen c ladding sys tem.
The exact date o f t he a p p o i n t m e n t w o u l d be recorded in my handwr i t t en notes. I
canno t recall t he date w i t h o u t access to those notes.
c. W h a t was discussed?
Detai ls w o u l d have been recorded in my handwr i t t en notes taken at t he t i m e . From
reco l lec t ion , I cannot add any more to my answer p rov ided at para 66 o f my
s t a t e m e n t date 30.11.18.
d . W h a t records , i f any , w e r e m a d e o f th is d iscussion?
See my answer at para 4 1 C .
4 2 . In para 66 y o u say t h a t you w e r e " adv ised t h a t t h e sys tem had been f i t t e d t o many
bu i ld ings t h r o u g h o u t England and Wales t o bu i ld ings o f a s imi la r he igh t and
c o n s t r u c t i o n " .
a. W h o gave y o u t h a t advice?
15 John Edward Hoban
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The Engineer f r o m Harley's.
W h e n was t h a t adv ice given?
See my answer a t para 4 1 B.
W h e n d id y o u have these discussions?
See my answer a t para 4 1 B.
W h a t w a s discussed?
See m y answer a t 4 1 C .
Did y o u seek any deta i ls ( inc lud ing addresses) o f these s imi lar pro jects?
No, a l though f r o m recol lect ion 1 d id check Harley's webs i te wh ich ind icated they had
comp le ted w o r k on simi lar sized pro jec ts .
f. W h a t records , i f any, w e r e made o f t hese discussions?
See m y answer at para 4 1 C .
g . W h a t w a s t h e re levance o f t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e role y o u w e r e pe r f o rm ing?
It had no relevance t o the role I was pe r f o rm ing . However , t h a t i n f o rma t i on , coupled
w i t h the fac t t h a t I was no t aware o f any concerns raised by the f i re
exper ts /consu l tan ts and no App l ica t ion had been made t o no t use class 0 mater ia l
re in forced my v iew t h a t t he c ladding p roposed at t ha t t ime was comp l ian t
43. W i t h re fe rence t o para 67 , please s ta te :
a. W h a t i n f o r m a t i o n y o u l ooked up o n t h e insu la t ion?
I looked at t h e Celotex webs i te t o see the i n fo rma t i on they had in respect of t he
mater ia l . I may have looked at o the r i n f o rma t i on shown on o ther sites bu t I cannot
be cer ta in .
b. In respect o f w h i c h produc ts?
The insu la t ion .
John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0016 RBK00050416/16
c. W h a t d id t h a t te l l you?
That i t was f i t f o r purpose.
d . W h e n d id y o u do t h a t ?
I canno t give a specific da te . I may have no ted on my pro jec t notes.
e. Are t h e r e any records o f t h a t ?
Possibly in my handwr i t t en notes w h i c h are no longer avai lable.
f. W h a t d o y o u m e a n by " c ladd ing pane l s " in the second sentence?
The ACM rain screen panels.
g. W h e n you s ta te t h e r e w e r e no mark ings o n the panels , please exp la in :
( i ) W h a t the s igni f icance o f t h a t was?
That i t was not apparen t f r o m a visual examina t ion w h a t mater ia l i t
consisted of .
( i i ) W h a t s teps y o u t o o k t o ve r i f y t h a t t h e panels w e r e comp l i an t w i t h
t h e Bu i ld ing Regula t ions?
Other t han approva l o f t he in i t ia l design and t h e assurance by the specialist
consu l tant at the ini t ia l mee t ing tha t the c ladding w o u l d comply w i t h the
standards set o u t in Approved Document B, none .
44. In para 67 y o u s ta te t h a t y o u w e r e adv ised by " t h e specia l is t consu l t an t t h a t t he
c ladd ing w o u l d c o m p l y w i t h A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B . "
a. W h o w a s t h e special ist consu l t an t?
It w o u l d have been emp loyees o f f r o m Max Fordham, Exova and Siderise.
b . For w h o m d id he w o r k ?
See para 44 A.
John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0017 RBK00050416/17
c. W h e n d id th i s discussion take place?
The main mee t i ng t o o k place on 24.11.14 ( ref lected on Acolaid) . I don ' t have the dates o f o t h e r meet ings t h a t t o o k place, th is w o u l d have been recorded on the physical f i le . And the re w e r e subsequent emai ls re levant t o th is top ic .
d . W h a t records , i f any , w e r e m a d e of th is discussion?
See my answer at para 40 B (iv).
e. W h a t y o u m e a n by " c l a d d i n g " in t h i s c o n t e x t " ?
The w h o l e c ladding system.
f. W h i c h pa r t o f A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B w a s be ing re fe r red t o ?
B2, B3 and B4.
g. W h a t s teps d id y o u take t o sat is fy you rse l f t h e c ladd ing comp l i ed w i t h t h e
gu idance in A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B?
By asking quest ions, checking i n f o r m a t i o n , tak ing notes on si te, cons ider ing
drawings and emails sent to me, read ing t h e Approved Document and speaking t o
Paul Hanson and John Al len on t h e subject .
h. H o w d id you ascer ta in t h a t t h e panels be ing insta l led w e r e t h e same as t h e
"spec ia l is t consu l t an t had said w o u l d c o m p l y w i t h A p p r o v e d D o c u m e n t B ?
By asking the special ist cont rac tors t h a t t h e mater ia l was o f class 0 o r above.
45. W i t h re fe rence t o para 69:
a. On w h a t basis d id y o u reach t h a t unders tand ing?
From t h e plans I saw, t h e emai ls I was party to and the discussions I had.
b. Please re fe r t o all r e l evan t c o n v e r s a t i o n s / i n f o r m a t i o n w h i c h led y o u t o t h a t
conc lus ion .
It w o u l d no t be possible t o do th is . I have already ou t l ined t h e ma in factors in
th is s t a temen t and my previous s ta temen t o f 30.11.18.
18 John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416 0018 RBK00050416/18
46. W i t h re ference t o para 70:
a. W h o are y o u re fe r r ing t o as t h e "des iRner" in t h e con tex t of t h e w o r k a t Grenfe l l T o w e r ?
The pr inc ip le designer was Studio E and t h e special ist designers giv ing advice o n
such mat te rs .
b . W h o are y o u re fe r r ing t o as " t h e pe rson /pe rsons p rov id ing t h e m w i t h
techn ica l adv ice in t h e con tex t of Gren fe l l T o w e r ? "
I am not able t o answer th is as I do no t know.
c. W h a t gave you cause t o be l ieve t h a t t h e p roposed w o r k s (e .g . c ladd ing ,
i n s u l a t i o n , w i n d o w s and m e t h o d s o f f i x i ng etc.) w o u l d in c o m b i n a t i o n sat isfy the
re levan t Bu i l d ing Regulat ions?
From carry ing o u t my dut ies at t he t i m e 1 had no cause t o bel ieve t h a t t he wo rk
w o u l d no t comply w i t h t h e Bui ld ing Regulat ions.
47. W i t h re ference t o para 74. please exp la in :
a. W h a t " o t h e r pa r t i es " and w h a t decis ions y o u are re fe r r ing t o here?
RBKC ( t h e c l ient ) , t he c o m p a n y / d e p a r t m e n t appo in ted t o manage the bui ld ing
(TMO) and t h e pr inc ip le con t rac to r (Rydons).
Inspec t ions
48. H o w d id y o u dec ide o n t h e n u m b e r of s i te v is i ts t o unde r take?
I am not aware o f any f o rma l w r i t t e n pol icy by RBKC on t h e subject , however , 1 am
aware t h a t t he Bui ld ing Cont ro l Per formance Standards July 2014 produced by the
Depa r tmen t fo r Commun i t i es and Local Gove rnmen t states t h a t "the scope and
frequency of inspections should be determined, and incorporated in a formal written
plan". I dec ided tha t 1 w o u l d endeavour t o conduct site visi ts once a m o n t h . I made th is
decision based on t h e scope o f t h e pro jec t .
49. W h a t w a s t h e process f o r on s i te inspect ions w h i c h you used t o sat is fy yourse l f t h a t
t h e w o r k w a s sa t i s fac to ry?
1 w o u l d rev iew plans in the site o f f i ce . Or on occasion 1 w o u l d br ing RBKC's marked up
f i re st rategy drawings . 1 w o u l d also take Approved Documents w i t h me f r o m t ime to
t i m e t o refer t o . I w o u l d t hen physical ly wa lk around t h e site w i t h a representat ive f r o m
19 John Edward Hoban
RBK00050416_0019 RBK00050416/19
t he pro ject managemen t t e a m at Rydons, or somet imes if I was inspect ing t h e c ladding
the re w o u l d be a representa t ive f r o m Harley's. I w o u l d make notes in my note book and
ask any re levant quest ions. I w o u l d prov ide feedback at t he end of t h e visi t . If there
we re any concerns f r o m a f i re safety perspect ive I w o u l d consul t Paul Hanson. I w o u l d
also discuss mat te rs w i t h my l ine manager, John Al len.
50. Was t h e r e a po l icy o r p r o t o c o l f o r inspect ions o f w o r k genera l ly and f o r Grenfe l l
T o w e r speci f ical ly?
No. But I w o u l d t r y and work in accordance w i t h t h e Bui lding Cont ro l Per formance
Standards July 2014.
51. Was t h e r e a po l icy or p ro toco l as t o w h a t shou ld be recorded on s i te visi ts?
Not as fa r as I am aware .
a. I f so, please descr ibe i t .
Please see my answer at para 5 1 .
b . If n o t p lease descr ibe h o w any i n f o r m a t i o n w a s recorded and d i ssemina ted
in pract ice?
M y unders tand ing is t h a t we w e r e expected t o place all site notes on Acola id. In
pract ice th is d id no t occur. In respect o f h o w I w o r k e d , I w o u l d make notes in my
no tebook , m y ou t l ook calendar, and somet imes on Acola id.
52. W h a t was t h e process f o r dea l ing w i t h any change t o a p p r o v e d designs?
That t hey are cons idered at t h e t i m e Bui ld ing Cont ro l are no t i f ied o r become aware o f
such changes.
53. In para 84 in y o u r w i t ness s t a t e m e n t you re fe r t o inspect ions o f t h e w o r k in Grenfe l l
Tower . Please exp la i n :
a. The da te and deta i ls o f each inspec t ion y o u u n d e r t o o k .
I can only prov ide detai ls o f th is as per the i n fo rmat ion tha t I have been
prov ided by RBKC in respect o f w h a t is ref lected on Acola id.
I d id visit t h e site on mo re occasions then is ref lected on Acola id bu t am
unable t o prov ide be t te r part iculars as I do no t have access t o my
h a n d w r i t t e n notes. I also do not have proper access to my Out look calendar
RBKC have prov ided me w i t h some diary ent r ies but I am unable t o
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de te rm ine dates of site visits f r o m these ent r ies and addi t ional ly 1 have no t
been able t o access notes a t tached t o diary appo in tmen ts wh ich w o u l d have
s h o w n detai ls o f t he inspect ions.
From Acolaid t h e dates o f visits are 29.08.14, 24.11.14, 27 .11.14,15.05.15,
17.06.15, 02 .11 .15 ,11 .11 .15 , 08.02.16, 24.03.16, 01.06.16, 07.07.16.
The detai ls o f these inspect ions can be f o u n d on the Acolaid system and 1
am aware t h a t t h e PI has th is already. As s ta ted , 1 w o u l d have recorded
more detai ls e lsewhere bu t do no t have access to these records.
Add i t iona l ly , t he re is an Acolaid en t ry f o r a si te vis i t by mysel f on 18.11.15
and f r o m t h e descr ip t ion conta ined on t h e no te t h a t relates t o a site vis i t in
January 2 0 1 6 . 1 bel ieve 1 en te red the incor rec t date upon enter ing these
en t ry .
b . Each and every occasion t h a t y o u inspec ted t h e ex te r i o r w o r k s t o the
T o w e r and w h a t y o u f o u n d d u r i n g those inspect ions?
O the r t han the notes on Acolaid I am unable t o answer th is w i t h o u t access
t o my h a n d w r i t t e n notes.
54. You re fer t o " h a n d h e l d n o t e b o o k s " a t para 88:
a. W e r e these no tes h a n d w r i t t e n o r e lec t ron ic?
H a n d w r i t t e n . Some notes may have been placed on m y Blackberry as we l l .
b. A re these no tes st i l l ava i lab le and can t hey be d isc losed?
As far as I a m aware RBKC canno t locate t h e m .
c. I f n o t , w h e r e w e r e t h e y s to red and w h e r e can t h e y be f o u n d ?
Whi ls t I was at RBKC they w e r e kept in the racking system w i t h my Approved
Documents . Each surveyor had the i r o w n ind iv idual area on the racking system
w h e r e t hey kept documen ts and mater ia ls in o rde r to carry o u t t he i r dut ies.
W h e n I le f t I le f t , as far as 1 can recal l , I le f t t h e m in t h e racking system for RBKC t o
do as t h e y w ished .
d . W h a t f o r m a t are these in? e.g. are t h e y t o be f o u n d in a single n o t e b o o k or series
of separa te notes?
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A series o f no tebooks .
e. Did y o u use any e lec t ron ic devices f o r t a k i n g notes on site? If so w h a t and w h e r e
can these no tes be f o u n d ?
Yes, somet imes I w o u l d use my w o r k Blackberry t o w r i t e notes as we l l . I do no t
bel ieve t h e Blackberry is avai lable f o r inspect ion .
55. You also re fer a t para 89 t o Aco la id no tes :
a. A re t h e y t h e same as t h e screenshots w e can see f r o m the Aco la id sys tem?
Yes.
b. W e r e t hese t h e same as you r s i te notes?
They w o u l d have been similar.
c. I f no t , p lease exp la in w h a t i n f o r m a t i o n y o u w o u l d record in Aco la id and w h a t in
y o u r s i te notes?
See my answer at para 55 B.
56. In para 102 y o u dea l w i t h cor rec t ive measures f o l l o w i n g an inspec t ion . Fo l l ow ing any
inspec t ion y o u c o n d u c t e d , d i d y o u have cause t o escalate any issue o f concern
by ra is ing i t t o y o u r l ine manager o r any o t h e r m e t h o d o f escalat ion?
There w o u l d have been discussions w i t h John Al len abou t m ino r mat te rs . But I d id no t
have concerns to the ex ten t t ha t w o u l d requ i re w h a t 1 w o u l d t e r m escalat ion.
57. H o w was i t ascer ta ined t h a t t h e on -s i t e , as-bu i l t cons t ruc t i on re f lec ted t h e design
w h i c h had been accepted by bu i ld ing con t ro l?
From my perspect ive, by w h a t cou ld be ascerta ined via site visits on the dates I v is i ted.
58. W i t h re fe rence t o para 88 and 101-102 o f y o u r f i rs t s t a t e m e n t :
a. Did y o u eve r raise any concerns in t h e con tex t of t h e Gren fe l l T o w e r w o r k s ?
1 p rov ided observat ions on site and 1 was advised t h a t rect i f icat ion w o u l d take place.
b. W h o d i d y o u raise those concerns w i t h ?
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RBK00050416 0022 RBK00050416/22
I w o u l d raise ma t te rs w i t h t h e site manager , or t he person w h o was accompanying
me on any give site vis i t and the clerk o f works w h e n w e did j o i n t visi ts.
c. On w h a t da te d i d y o u raise those concerns?
I d id no t have any concerns as such. I had observat ions o f a typ ica l nature t ha t did
not necessari ly cause me undue concerns. M y observat ions are recorded on Acolaid
and I w r o t e a le t te r on 02.07.16 re la t ing t o ou ts tand ing mat te rs . This was signed o f f
by John Al len bu t in fact I d ra f ted th is le t ter .
59. W i t h re fe rence t o para 90 :
a. W h a t w a s t h e da te o f th is r e p o r t ?
This is t h e le t te r I re fer to in para 58 C above.
b . W h a t was t h e sub jec t -ma t t e r?
Observat ions on general ou ts tand ing mat te rs t ha t requ i red a t t en t i on . It was a
s tandard le t te r k n o w n as 8.02 inspect ion le t ter , wo rks t o be carr ied ou t . It is o n
Aco la id .
60 . W i t h re ference t o para 94 d o y o u n o w have access t o y o u r si te no tes and Ou t l ook
notes? If n o t please can y o u exp la in w h a t is miss ing and w h e r e those records are
l ike ly t o be s t o r e d / l o c a t e d ?
I have access t o t h e Acolaid notes bu t no t my ou t l ook no tes or my handwr i t t en notes.
See my answer at para 54 C.
M a r c h 2015
6 1 . W i t h re ference t o t h e ema i l s exchanged b e t w e e n y o u and var ious professionals o n
t h e p ro jec t b e t w e e n 30 M a r c h 2015 and 1 Apr i l 2015 o n t h e subiect of f i re s topp ing
and cav i ty bar r ie rs - w h a t w a s t h e reason f o r y o u acced ing t o t h e v i ew t h a t t h e
cav i ty bar r ie rs w e r e su f f i c ien t t o m a i n t a i n c o m p a r t m e n t a t i o n w i t h i n the c ladd ing
sys tem?
From recol lec t ion I cannot n o w recall w h y I was no t in i t ia l ly satisf ied tha t t he f i re
s topp ing and cavi ty barr iers we re no t compl ian t .
However f r o m discussions I had, and in par t icu lar d rawings t h a t had been sent to me, it
became clearer t o me tha t t h a t t he cavity barr iers re f lec ted w h a t was shown in d iagram
33 in sect ion 9 o f approved Document B3 and tha t th is issue had been proper ly
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cons idered by t h e designers. There fore I had no adverse commen ts to make at t ha t
stage.
I con f i rm t h e con ten ts o f th is s ta temen t are t r ue t o t h e best o f my knowledge,
i n f o r m a t i o n and bel ief.
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