JOE DISPENZA - Ben PakulskiWelcome to the Muscle Expert podcast with Ben Pakulski, one of the world’s top professional bodybuilders – an expert on human performance and mindset

JOE DISPENZA

MUSCLE EXPERT PODCAST

Gabrielle Lyon

Welcome to the Muscle Expert podcast with Ben Pakulski, one of the world’s top professional bodybuilders – an expert on human performance and mindset mastery. Ben dives deep to deliver the strategy of top experts to upgrade your body, mind, muscle, strength, performance, biochemistry, and how to become the upgraded, modern man.

Join us on www.benpakulski.com to learn the cutting edge techniques to take control of your body, your brain, and create your greatest life!

EP-63 : Gabrielle Lyon

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www.benpakulski.com


Hey what’s up ladies and gents? Muscle Expert Podcast, Ben Pakulski, and today, we’re going to interview Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

She’s a fellowship-trained nutrition and cognition physician, she’s got her own center called The Ash Centre for Comprehensive

Medicine, in Manhattan. And this lady isn’t degrading everything when it comes to optimizing muscle, and you guys are going

to want to listen to this one because if you like muscle and you like longevity, you’re going to love this.

We dive on everything, as far as hormones, training environment, mindset, and you know I’m a geek around mindset. Dr.

Gabrielle isawesome, she’s got incredible message, ladies you’re going to love it, guys you’re going to love it. Don’t forget to

leave us a review and share, and I look forward to all of your feedback, have an awesome day and enjoy Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

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I couldn’t be more excited about talking to you because you’re doing all stuff that I love. Like you’re talking about obviously

muscles and muscle protein synthesis, but also the cognitive aspect which is, where my brain is shifting now. I love it! It’s so

awesome. What do you get excited about? I want to hear about like getting you pumped up in the morning.

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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

So it’s really interesting, I’m a functional medicine practitioner, I have a practice on 61st and 5thAvenue in New York City, and it’s

really about optimizing muscle tissue for people. It changes the trajectory of their life, right? And if you think about it, I mean to

you who come from a sporting background, there is this kind of trajectory where people are really kind of like young and they

have a lot of bravado and they maintain all this muscle. And then something happens, the whole dad body or whatever.

Then the trajectory of agingreally decreases, and part of that is because they don’t do the right things to maintain the muscle

integrity. And with their loss of muscle integrity comes the loss of cognitive. It causes cognitive decline as well. I did my fellowship

at Wash UN in Saint Luis, and I did obesity medicine and geriatrics and cognition. So really kind of getting people on track to age

well, and have a lot of longevity is amazing.

BEN


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Gabrielle Lyon

BEN

What is the cause? So from your obviously research and experience, what’s causing that degradation of the muscular integrity,

to use your term? Is it just lack of activity? Is it hormonal degradation?

BEN

You think it’s a fear thing because they are afraid of hurting themselves? Or is it because they no longer have an incentive to

look great?

BEN

I’ve been doing a lot of digging lately, just kind of personally geeking out about androgens effect on neuron transmitters. My

theory obviously is, everyone ages when mitochondria starts to downregulate and lose function and then thereby hormones

aren’t produced as well. And then it goes into neuron transmitters, it’s a massive cascade. I think it’s just has to be hormones

and if we just augment hormones, it seems as though our motivation would be increased because dopamine won’t drop. And

then maybe we’ll be more inspired to train and just be vigorous and rigorous in life.

DR. GABRIELLE

So there is a multi-factorial kind of complex issue that fibers that we typically lose as we age, are the bulk fibers, the strength

fibers, which is why you see people age, they kind of shrink. There’s that natural inclination to happen, but it doesn’t have to.

People tend to work less hard as they age, and then of course, you know the hormonal shift and then also the mind frame.

I know that you’re really interested in the mental capacity of training. The individual’s mind frame and ability to tolerate hard

physical labor and really having a person’s health, also changes.

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, I think that there is that loss of intrinsic motivation that happens, and I think that the society that we live in is so easy

to become complacent, internally complacent, unless you’re constantly sharpening yourself, you know, iron sharpens iron

and really to maintain the physical problem as in to really maintain that metabolic organ, which is muscle, requires a whole

different attention as you age.


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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. We know that testosterone and estrogens are actually neuron protective. So having hormonal

balance is absolutely neuron protective. It’s really this complex symphony that is extraordinary. Aging does not have to happen

the way that we experience it. It’s crazy!

DR. GABRIELLE

People come to me for various specific reasons. I see really two groups of people. I see some of the elite military; seals, special

operations, very specific kind of group. Obviously they have muscle mass and really were looking for medals and inflammation

and keeping their nervous system together. The other part of my practice is people with metabolic impairment. We’ve got

women that have yo-yo dive in their whole life, I have men with low testosterone that are now kind of transitioning to a higher

estrogen state. And really when people come to me, it’s all about muscle-centric medicine. So I’m a specialist.

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, absolutely. So muscle is, you know, we always thought about muscle in terms of locomotion and strength, and kind of

the architecture of the body, but it’s actually the infrastructure.

BEN

So what’s getting you excited about, how are you helping peoplemost? Because I know you’re doing a ton with functional

medicine, just helping people in your day-to-day practice. What are you seeing that’s moving the needle the most for people

and what are you excited about, as far as your direction?

BEN

I love that term. I want you to tell me all about that term, because that to me, I think you’re on this path to literally revolutionize

the paradigm of fitness industry. I’m trying to do the same thing, but we can talk about that later. But you have such an awesome

focus, and I want you to tell me all about it because everyone deserves to hear about this.

BEN

So much more.


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I’mloving the message more and more. I love it. You’re preaching to the choir!

Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Right, it is responsible for metabolic regulation, it’s responsible for glucose metabolism, it’s responsible for lipid oxidation,

it’s anti-inflammatory, it’s responsible for growth, you were talking about hormones and all of these things. So we focus as a

society on being over fat, but we’re actually under muscled. Muscle is actually an organ, it’s an endocrine organ. It secretes

all kinds of things. You have a cardiologist, he’s a specialist for the heart, a pulmonologist for the lungs, but we have nobody

talking about this muscle, the organ of longevity.

And as you age, you have to eat and train in a very specific way, to keep that tissue healthy. You no longer can train the way

you did in your twenties and thirties. It doesn’t work.

DR. GABRIELLE

It’s crazy. I do come from a community of functional medicine, and then within that community there’s also a lot of vegetarianism

and a lot of veganism. And I’m fellowship trained, so I trained at Wash UN Saint Luis, I did a clinical research and I did a patient

care. So what we found was, the people that really struggled later on in life, were vegans and really strict vegetarians because,

we know that bones and all of these things are made of proteins.

So that is a long winded way of saying what gets me excited, and it’s really about bringing the truth. Kind of eliminating the

bro-science and the opinion and the emotion, and really bringing true facts to the fore front to help these people. You know,

what you don’t know can hurt you, and especially as you age.

BEN

BEN

I feel as though you’re the only doctor that I’ve come across, or the only person that’s having this conversation from a holistic

perspective. You’re looking at it from all these angles. And that’s the way we should be looking at it, right? That’s the way I look

at it, and I’m like, “Why isn’t anybody else having this conversation?” and I literally think you’re going to be the one that’s shifting

the paradigm of the fitness industry because, or least being the catalyst for change. And making people aware of like, “Hey man,

you have to take care of this.” This is your probably – you can argue which is your most important organ – but it’s such an impor-

tant aspect to everything, and people are talking about like you said, diabetes and inflammation and those things, it’s so easy

to mitigate those things just by exposing yourself to a little bit of exercise. So what are the first intervention strategies you’re

applying? Let’s say you have a navy seal, because that’s a really interesting demographic that people are really diving into right

now. So someone who is high end, any type of army, navy, marine, whatever it is, what is the first kind of intervention strategy

to help optimize their performance? Because they’re not just normal people, they’re looking to be like cognitively sharp as a

knife.


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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

So it’s really interesting, there’s kind of two extremes from my experience of treating these people. There are the ones that are

really into functional medicine, and are doing ozone therapy, and are very dialed into their macros, and are really aware. Those

guys are much easier. So their first line intervention is really about keeping their nervous system on track. And those guys are

meditating. So it’s really about adopt to genic herbs, and then measuring their vitamin status. Are their omegas where they need

to be? Where is their gludefion? [Timestamp: 00:10:56] What kind of nutrients are very specific to them?And then there’s more

of the, I don’t want to say reckless, but the more rough and tumble, that are not so open.

DR. GABRIELLE

Totally. And so the first line for the guys getting ready for buds, I just had a patient who had just completed bud, and then I have

an active navy seal right now, that we’re really working on doing some of the basic stuff. And that’s actually just cleaning up the

diet, making sure that the proteins and the calories are where they need to be, and reducing inflammatory-type things.

DR. GABRIELLE

It’s interesting because there’s a lot of questions as to whether this is bro-science or real science, but I can only tell you from a

clinical perspective, that there are a lot of people with gluten sensitivities, and a lot of people with dairy sensitivities. It doesn’t

mean that they are allergic, but it really creates a lot of brain fog because there’s kind of this inflammatory cascade and in my

clinic, we measure lymphocyte reactivity. So we have one of the original researchers, I shouldn’t say original researchers, but a

very prominent researcher in the NIH developed this study called the LRA.

It’s the same thing like in my sport, right? You get the guys who are actually using their brain, you get the guys who are just

working really hard. And both of them make it really far but when you speak about longevity, it’s certainly something to be

said for someone taking care of themselves.

BEN

So you say cleaning up the diet, talk about that. What does that mean? What types of things are you removing? Because I think

people need to hearthat stuff, as much as you and I think it’s common knowledge, not everyone knows. When you say clean up

the diet, what are you removing to optimize the nervous function?

BEN


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And so we utilize that when it comes to sensitivities for all kinds of foods. Eliminating gluten and dairy always seems to come up

for these people. And so really kind of just pulling that back, and putting in high quality protein and less of the packaged type

stuff, and high quality carbohydrates like sweet potato, brown rice, kinwa. [Timestamp: 00:12:57] Really kind of streamlining

their nutrition.

Gabrielle Lyon

Great. As far as the gluten thing, it’s my argument with people, is this a bro-science or not, I don’t know. But 90% of the people

that I encounter have an issue with it. And it’s not helping you in any way, so just removing it can only be better, can only be

beneficial, right? There’s nothing good about it, it’s not like you’re weighing good and bad, it’s like either it’s going to be neutral

or it’s going to be bad. So just take it out for most people. Not everybody, some people can do okay with it, but it seems as

though, like many lectins, anything is obviously a dose depending on the type thing and if you’re taking too much, it’s going to

affect you.

BEN

So what type of ratios are you looking at for optimizing, let’s say we say a navy seal? How individualized is this or do you have

like a starting baseline where you say, “Okay, start here and then we’ll adapt according to how your body responds.”?

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, absolutely. So really streamlining the nutrition is really important. And then of course basic fundamentals in terms of

getting your macros right, it matters. So whether a food is not inherently a bad food, whether it’s a ground bicenor sweet

potato, the imbalance of either or, you know, food is medicine, it’s a nutritional science. What you put in your body and the

amounts and the macro nutrient ratios, completely affect your insulin and your metabolism, and really sets you up for being

sharp cognitively, or it can also create kind of cognitive decline in all these inflammatory processes.

DR. GABRIELLE

It depends on activity level and weight, in lean muscle tissue. So if it’s a big guy, I am definitely, I was trained on a Dr. Donald

Leighman, so I always error on the side of high protein, and that’s a gram, at least a gram for a pound of lean tissue. And then

we also know that you need 30 to 50 grams, especially if it’s a guy, to actually maximize the muscle protein synthesis. Because

we don’t want to just baseline stimulation of mTor, you really want to max up the system.


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Gabrielle Lyon

How much are you considering, sorry to interrupt you, how much are you considering sources of proteins?

That’s key.

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, I know for you it’s huge, how much are you a proponent of avoiding pesticides and things like that? And how is that

playing into their overall performance in health?

BEN

I know you’re going down that road. Since my exit from bodybuilding, I’ve retired from bodybuilding for 12 months, and I’ve

been eating a predominantly plant-based diet, but I’ve been eating meat with every meal, but it’s like I eat plants and then just

a little bit meat, a little bit relative to what I was eating in my bodybuilding career. In the last three months, I’ve had ten people

come out and ask me if I would coach them for vegan bodybuilding, vegetarian bodybuilding. And I’m literally thinking in my

brain like, “If we were perfect with everything, could someone be successful as a bodybuilder?” Meaning we augment BCAs,

we augment essential aminos. Very curious in your opinion on that, because obviously you’re anmTor and MPK specialist.

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Whatever they can get in is really important, so it doesn’t really matter, I mean, obviously if it can be organic, fantastic, but if

not, that’s okay. And I also treat a lot of other athletes: I have a race car driver, PGA golfer, so really king of the core fundamen-

tals are the same for everybody. High quality protein, we know plant is totally different than animal protein. We know that

these protein digestibility scores, none of that matters. It really matters about the branch chain if you’re talking about you

know, muscle protein synthesis and optimization, you require lysine. There’s no question about it. No one is eating six cups

of kinwa, you know, to get your equivalent of a chicken breast.

DR. GABRIELLE

I’m actually really glad you asked that question, because I think that there are individuals that have a particular phenotype

that can do amazing vegan and vegetarian. I think the percentage of people that can do that well is very small, but I have seen

patients be keto-vegan and vegetarian and vegan and do phenomenal.


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Gabrielle Lyon

Did you say keto-vegan? I didn’t know that was a thing.

BEN

So is Orbit 23 is giving you the entire read of your genetic code? Or is it just specific to your nutrition?

BEN

I don’t think anybody is yet. To be honest, I’ve been discussing it, actually had Dr. Jerry Readon, who’s the guy who created

fitness genes. Obviously there’s the people who are actually in the lab doing the research and they’re obviously experts.

But as far as people in the fitness industry, I think it’s so diverse, and there’s so many interactions, like one gene is signal, is

coding for one thing, and then you get something else that’s completely knocking it out. So many interactions that I think

it’s just too new.

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, the forefront and I’m actually just starting to do this, I have a good friend, Ralph Espazido, you should definitely have him

on. He worked under Peter Diodomo, and what we’re starting to look at is genes. So you run the 23 mean, or ancestry, and you

put it through the system called Orbit 23 and you look at the genetic capacity to handle really particular feeding, particular diet.

I am telling you, you can be vegan and vegetarian, and you’ll know within your genetic makeup if you can do that.

DR. GABRIELLE

So I’m very new to it, and I use it very specifically for body composition optimization. And I am by no means an expert in gene

translation in these things yet.

DR. GABRIELLE

And I had other people say that as well. They think that it’s very new. It’s definitely, if we can figure out who, and then of course

through clinical experience of trial and error, and you’ve gone more plant-based and feel amazing. I think that there’re…


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Gabrielle Lyon

Just because I’m trying to loose muscle, to be honest. If I was not trying, sorry about that, it just sounds blasphemous I know, I

worked around at 310 pounds for 15 years. So now I’m down to 270, and I feel like I can run a marathon, right? Walking around

at 310 pounds for anyone is not healthy, so I’m trying to downsize a little bit. Not trying to get small, just downsize a little bit.

BEN

So I’m given you my experience, not that you want to hear, but as a bodybuilder, I was so focused like most bodybuilders on

consumption and my energy sucked. My training started to fade sometimes, now, like I haven’t eaten yet today, once a week

I’ll fast, most of the day I might have one meal and my energy the next day you would presume would be depleted or down,

or my strength would be down. It’s actually not in any way, just my body’s adapted and learnt how to use the nutrients that

I’m eating, way more effectively.Now that I study more about mitochondria, I understand why. So many people, especially in

the fitness industry are anti-fasting, but now that I do it, it’s massive and I suggest everybody do it.

BEN

So talking about MTor and MPK, because I know you’re big at optimizing this muscle organ, most people don’t understand

the intricate mechanisms. Can you give a little bit of insight to starting with those?

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Something that I utilize in my clinic is I do think intermittent fasting and fasting mimicking diet for say a week, five days, five to

seven days is phenomenal. I do think, I take breaks on eating protein. I would say, probably once every eight weeks, I go a week

where I’m pretty vegan, and very low calorie. And I think it’s important to not be so dogmatic in thinking I’m really being flexible,

medically flexible in your mind, but there is some really good research out there for accumulation of all kinds of things to help

longevity and the body reset hormones, everything.

DR. GABRIELLE

I think that’s amazing. It’s the nutritional strategy of the future. It’s the intervention of the future.


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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah, I could give them the most important pieces that I talk to my patients about all the time. MTor signaling is required for

muscle protein synthesis.MTor signaling, they also say causes cancer in all of these things, right? What the biggest trigger of

MTor stimulus is insulin. The small feedings of carbohydrates through the day create this chronic stimulation of MTor. And that

is where you think about cancer, and that’s where you think about all of these things as opposed to having a balanced protein

meal, which requires a minimum of 30 grams, you know, two and a half grams of lucid, to stimulate this cascade, which this

cascade is essentially a growth mechanism.

Anything below that doesn’t trigger it in terms of muscle protein synthesis. And then you’ve got of course the high carbohydrate

feeding, which is negative in terms of chronic stimulation of MTorsynthesis, which they think is related to cancer. Although I

haven’t seen any complete evidence of that.

DR. GABRIELLE

I totally appreciate that and I thought a lot about it, and I don’t think that that is the issue in terms of negativity, I think that

when you are then over 40, the chronic stimulation of MTor then becomes an issue. But I think when you’re younger, it’s okay.

But back to what you were saying in terms of feeding and allowing the MTor signaling to reset, I think it’s key. But there has

been no evidence to link with cancer, in terms of protein in cancer is not true.

To be honest, that’s one of the reasons why I was so adamant about less protein in my diet now and even less regular feedings.

Because for 20 years, I was trying to be the biggest human on the planet, I know that I was constantly anabolic, MTor, insulin

like constantly. So there’s got to be some negative, I mean, my brain says there’s got to be some negative effects to try and

accumulate that much tissue, for 20 years. Any thoughts?

BEN

What is it about that, you know, over 40 demographic, in your opinion that says, we should start maybe not constantly stimulat-

ing MTor?

BEN


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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Because between 40 and 60, you’re really at that window for things to go wrong, oncogenically, [Timestamp: 00:23:12] cancer

wise. So you really want to limit any kind of external triggers that can cause that to happen. So the multiple protein boluses, you

know, I don’t know if that’s true. When I think of MTor and I think of Cancer, I think multiple carbohydrates and excess calories

being the problem. Because actually if you really think about it, is the bigger driver of MTor signaling.

DR. GABRIELLE

When you think about cancer, it’s really, so that is true, exercises are absolutely anti-inflammatory, it’s the excess caloric load,

and it’s the excess carbohydrate that’s the problem. And I think that everyone demonizes protein and they shouldn’t. It’s very

agenda driven. It’s kind of like the obvious, we’re all missing the obvious. It’s the excess calories and the excess sugars. When

you think about insulin and cancer, it’s not actually protein.

DR. GABRIELLE

Absolutely. So we know with chronic dieting and over training you get an elevation of reversed T3. So you know TSH stimulates

the thyroid to generate T4, then T4 is converted in the tissue to either T3 or reversed T3. So when I measure these women

that have had a metabolic derangement, usually the reversed T3 is through the roof. Which means that their metabolically

activeaspect of their thyroid hormone is not working. And although I do come from a very functional medicine approach, I

want to get these women out of distress quickly. I often put them on straight T3, to help liberate those binding receptors.

I feel as though it’s all massively to do with mitochondria function. As long as you’re exercising, I tell this to people all the time,

your margin for error with nutrition, it goes so much greater because if your mitochondria are constantly turning over ATP and

constantly functioning properly and have proper cellular synthesis, does it seem as though it is as likely that these cancer things

are going to happen?

BEN

We shouldn’t even go down the cancer road because that’s just going to be controversial all round. So you said the other

demographic that you’re dealing with is people with metabolic impairment, so I’m guessing that’s a slightly older population,

when I think about metabolic impairment, the first person that comes to mind is like female competitors.

And I want to go down, not to pick on anybody, but I want to go down that road because I’ve worked with so many female

competitors, they come to me because you know, ex-coach just screwed them up or somebody else has messed up their

diet or they can’t eat anything now because you know, they’d get fat or they have to do two hours of cardio. That’s massive

metabolic impairment and I get tons of women that approach me on that topic. So I’d love for you to talk about that.

BEN


Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

You definitely have to pull back their training and start to overfeed them a little bit.

DR. GABRIELLE

So understanding the why. Why are you doing this? You know, ultimately finding something that means more to them than a

physical external experience, is really key.So what is the underlying driver of really kind of understanding how they got where

they are, leveraging that perspective and really changing their mind, help them facilitate kind of a mind shift or an aha moment.

Those are the people that get the biggest success. Because we all have to have short term sacrifice for long term gain. It’s just

the way that it is.

Do you think that’s the, so long term, what’s going to be the best strategy to start influencing the decrease in reversed T3?

BEN

And that’s so hard, it’s exactly what I think, right? And try and do the idea of reversed dieting for people, it’s such a mind game

for people to start saying, “We’re going to train less, and we’re going to eat more, and it’s progressive.” Most people have a

hard time. And I want to get into the cognitive aspect, because obviously that’s also right in your will house. So talking about

the cognitive effects or so, I guess the cognitive intervention strategies with that.

BEN

Any interventions as far as analyzing female hormones? Like you said, you’re my second female guest and I want to give the

female demographic a really valuable tit bit nugget of information regarding hormone optimization, physique optimization,

specific to women.Because I really get so many women that are angry with me that say I always talk to men on my podcast.

Because I’m like, you know what? I’m a man, I don’t want to claim to be the authority for women. You’re certainly an authority

for men and women.So giving the female demographics some insights as to how they can optimize thyroid, as to how they can

optimize, there’re so many levels, progesterone and estrogen. What should they be looking at?

BEN

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Gabrielle Lyon

BEN

28-day cortisol test, is that once a day or you do that multiple times?

BEN

Explain that to me. I thought you said it was a saliva test. Is that what you said?

BEN

How accurate is saliva test? I’m not familiar.

DR. GABRIELLE

So it’s really about if you can’t fix what you don’t test, so it’s kind of like, “How much do I weigh? I don’t really know.” How much

are you eating when you don’t really know? Because we’re not tracking it. So the first and most important thing that all your

women listeners can do is get a good functional testing. So for my women with any kind of endocrine issue, we do 28 days

saliva test, so you don’t just measure snapshot and time, if you’re going to do a blood test, it should be the week before their

period, but a lot of these women aren’t menstruating.

So you really want to take a look at what their hormones are doing throughout a 28-day cycle. I have one competitive cross fit

of a young athlete and we’ve really worked hard on getting her cycle back. And we did it through testing, and then of course you

want to measure your iodine, urine iodine. Another great test is an organic acid test, and that is absolutely good. So you kind

of look at the whole picture. You look at all their thyroid function, you look at all their hormones, and then you kind of assess

where they are at and where they are comfortable.

DR. GABRIELLE

It’s a saliva test, and it tests estrogen, progesterone, all the estrogens, all the progesterones, and what they do, through a

woman’s 28 days.

DR. GABRIELLE

So a lot of the traditional MDs really like blood tests, but the percent accuracy I can’t tell you. We do know that it is pretty

accurate, and institutions like A for M really focus on saliva testing.

DR. GABRIELLE

Hormone test.

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15

Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

So you can, and especially I do a lot of hormone replacement, and if you do hormone replacement that is topical, it’s much

better to do a saliva test. Unless they’re injecting themselves with something, then you would do a blood test.

DR. GABRIELLE

The most common thing I see is estrogen dominance. So their estrogen is just through the roof and they’re not making proges-

terone. That’s the big thing.

DR. GABRIELLE

That’s a tricky topic because you know, I’m not sure it’s necessary…

BEN

Fascinating. I had no idea that it could be, I knew cortisol was very relevant in saliva, but I didn’t realize they could test for

progesterone and estrogen.

BEN

Interesting, good to know. So you’re saying you’re doing hormone intervention, where does it start for most people? What is

the most common one you see? Is it going to begiving people estrogen or giving progesterone?

BEN

Most competitors go to male coaches, we’ve talked about competitors, but most of them will go to male coaches and the coach

would say, “Go take Novid X, go take an Astrazol.” Can you talk about that?

BEN

I agree, that’s why I want you to talk about it.


But if they’re estrogen dominant we know we need to do something about it. Give people some really valuable takeaways,

you know, different strategies rather than having to go through the pharmaceutical…

Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

From the very obviousness of why you are a woman, why would you want to do that?

DR. GABRIELLE

For example Dim or Calcium Deglucorate, there’s other ways to kind of rid the body of estrogens. The best athletes in the

world, the people with the most longevity, have a balance. Even if that balance is extreme, they can still have a balance of

lower estrogensand lower progesterone right throughout their time of competing. It doesn’t mean you have to be so drastic

in completing shutting down a female hormonal system, you’re going to be in for a world of hurt.

If you’re eating things like Christopher’s vegetables, if you’re even augmenting your progesterone to balance that estrogen domi-

nance, you should be able to get lean and as long as you’re training and eating well, there’s ways that you can do it to protect

yourself. The first thing that I would do is, I would not use obviously a Rumid X. I would use something like Calcium Deglucorate

or Dim, have them have Christopher’s vegetables, have them doing infra-red, having them have night time progesterone, even

low dose Naltruxon is an anti-inflammatory, helps regulate the hormonal system. So there’re other things. Without sounding

crazy, they have to process the whole visualization and really kind of programming what kind of athlete they want to be. How

are they seeing success of what they are doing?

BEN

BEN

That’s not sounding crazy at all. That’s the direction that I think the fitness industry needs to go. It needs to start realizing the

necessity of that. I don’t know how much you’ve paid attention to the conversations I’ve been having in the podcast, but grow-

ing up, we’re all attached to the external outcome, right? We’re all attached to the external stimulus. Run faster, jump higher,

whatever it is. When it comes to physique enhancement and longevity, it’s all about the internal response to the external

stimulus. So I really believe that the visualizations, the meditations, all those things are absolutely necessary interventions if

you’re trying to create this internal environment that mitigates stress, that allows your body to actually do what you wanted

to do. It’s massive, and people are just blind to it.

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Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Absolutely, and it’s key. And I think that you’re right on that cutting edge, I think you’re right and I think that you’re having

insights and if through you talking about in your community, really raising awareness of that, that’s really going to push the

whole bodybuilding, the whole community to the next level.

DR. GABRIELLE

That’s a great question. All of my patients use heat therapy. I stick them in a hot sauna…

DR. GABRIELLE

It depends, it’s either if they’re doing conventional sauna, it’s at least 176 or so, and then if they’re doing infra-red, I’m not sure,

I think that’s like 155, but it’s really about kind of the waves and that internal kind of ambient heat. What I utilize with that is, I

give them high dose Nyosin, for like flossing and flushing.

DR. GABRIELLE

It’s at least 500 over 1000, I push them up. Of course they can’t have hypertension or blood sugar issues, and it really just

opens up everything.

It’s literally spreading the word and collaborating with people like yourself, who are also thinking on that level and just tying

all the missing pieces together, right? Like you seem, like I said, you’re looking at every aspect in creating this awesome

internal cascade to optimize longevity, to optimize muscle function and hormone function. And you’re doing exactly what

everyone needs to be doing, and people need to be listening to you. Walking into the conversation that you brought up

about infra-red sonus, [Timestamp: 00:34:00] I want to talk about that. I don’t know how uncomfortable you feel, but talking

about environmental strategies that people can start implementing to make the most of their muscles, their hormones,

their longevity, so not just dietary, not just training but other, to use the catch phrase, bio-hacks.

BEN

Do you know the temperature?

BEN

What’s high dose?

BEN

17


Gabrielle Lyon

It sucks. I do it all the time. I’m used to it now, but when I started, it’s terrible, it’s just so uncomfortable. You’re sitting there

itchy and burning in the sauna, it’s a terrible thing but it’s so effective.

BEN

I was up to three grams, but I titrated. I started at 500 and I went to three grams.

BEN

Beautiful. Are you doing anything pre-sauna to help their bodies start to flush toxins? Or is it just like hey get in there and

sweat it out with a Nyosin?

BEN

Do you have all these therapies in your clinic?

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

What dose did you use?

DR. GABRIELLE

That’s amazing, I always use heat therapy, and then afterwards I give them some chlorella or clay, I give them some kind of

binder.

DR. GABRIELLE

Sometimes I give them Alpha Q Deglucorate and Nyosin, but Nyosin is really the big one.

DR. GABRIELLE

I do. We don’t have a sauna.

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Gabrielle Lyon

Cool. Any thoughts on, this is just coming to mind, my brain and yours is this way too, the idea of getting away from the treat-

ment of illness and disease, and bringing people back to health optimization. Any focus or opinion on IV vitamin therapy?

Do you use any of that with you?

BEN

I love that. So I’m the guy doing 75 grams of vitamin C, I do it about once a month. I’ve been doing it for years, I really feel as

though it works. I haven’t been sick in five years, but I feel awesome, and I don’t recommend most people this 75 grams, I’ve

obviously worked up to that.

BEN

Yeah, talk about the mold protocol, because most people aren’t even aware that mold exists, and I live in Florida and mold is

everywhere, what concerns should people be having around mold?

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

Ten to seventy five grams. We really go for it, we have mold detoxification bags, we have everything.

DR. GABRIELLE

So mold is a huge problem. I’m seeing it in my clinic, I actually was exposed to it, I got really sick. It’s the new epidemic. Mold is

definitely, you know they’ve talked about lime, they’ve talked about all this stuff, mold is the new epidemic. I’m seeing people that

for example, can’t lose weight, totally fatigued, they’re eating perfectly, they’re training well, they feel horrible. They’re getting joint

pains, they don’t know why, they just are completely tanked. And after a while, I’m seeing these people thinking like, this is just

not right.

I have them, there’s a company called Real Time Labs, that does mold testing in the blood, and then I’m thinking of one girl

in particular, she is what you would absolutely think about as healthy. Trim, lean, eating everything perfectly, still not getting

better. Been to four functional medicine doctors, I had her home inspected, they said it was one of the most worst homes

of mold they’ve ever seen.People get really sick and actually it creates a stomach inflammatory response. So if they go to the

doctor, everything is fine, but the GI system is a complete mess. Mold is definitely an issue.

DR. GABRIELLE

That’s a lot.

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Gabrielle Lyon

So is that what is happening? Is it attacking the GI? Is it attacking mitochondria? From your opinion, what is it attacking and

what’s the first line of intervention?

BEN

And you’ve had some pretty successful interventions with people with removing mold?

BEN

Good, because I know it’s a huge thing, I mean, we had mold in my house once I’m here in Florida and literally I was like, “Alright,

tear the whole thing out, we’re moving or are you taking this whole room out?” it’s literally legitimate like a scary thing, especially

if you’ve got little kids. So it’s a massive concern.

BEN

So now I’m going to pry into your life. How do you train? My question is always, how do you work hard?

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

It’s attacking every system. I’ve seen tons of pashy motor patients that are actually underlying mold. The interventions, you

have to remediate, you have to get an air filter, you have to move. I usually put them through detoxification, saunas and then IV

therapy. So it has vitamin C, sodium bicarb, torine, B vitamins, trace minerals, you have to up regulate the body’s detoxification

process. And then of course you’ve got cholestiramine and then these binding agents.

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah.

DR. GABRIELLE

Yeah.

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21

Gabrielle Lyon

Sure, I do know Mark very well.

BEN

And it’s still bad?

BEN

So tell me about your met con training.

BEN

DR. GABRIELLE

I work hard, I try to work as hard as I can every day. And it’s been really interesting. So I was a fitness figure competitor, for

a very long time, and then I started doing cross fit, and then I moved from cross fit to seal fit, I don’t know if you’ve heard of

Mark Divine?

DR. GABRIELLE

Mark’s amazing, he’s a mentor of mine, and I was training for kakoro, [Timestamp: 00:40:03] and I avulsed my hamstring and

my hip. So it has been 80% avulsed right hamstring, so it’s been about a two year rehab process. You asked me how I work

hard, I’ve had to really cut it back and I’ve had to do, I’ve done PRP, multiple rounds of stem cells and I’m at the last stem cell,

this would be number four.

DR. GABRIELLE

I’ve one more to go and I should be totally healed. So in terms of working hard, for me, it’sabout working smart. So I do three

met cons a week, very short, high intensity and then in terms of lifting, it’s all about movement for me right now.

DR. GABRIELLE

Rowing, right? So it’s 500 meter rows under two minutes, follow in between…


22

Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

Oar is geared, I’ll do multiple rounds of that, you know.

DR. GABRIELLE

So it’s so much fun but I have to be so much smarter now, in terms of healing.

DR. GABRIELLE

In terms of sleep, having some great magnesium, right? So you have magnesium before you go to bed, really high doses of

Magnesium Malade, Magnesium Glycinate or Magnesium Threenate which crosses the blood/brain barrier. Those are the

external things that you can take. There’s also the internal work, which is kind of recapitulation, reviewing your day, writing

it down, identifying the things that really went well, and the things that didn’t go so well, and reformulating your day for the

next day.

Here’s my question, what’s your time for 500 meters? I need to get competitive with you now!

BEN

I’m doing the same.

BEN

Awesome. And nutritionally, you talked about doing some fasting from time to time, night time routines that people obviously

know that sleep is a massive component, and I’m sure you’re a big proponent of optimized sleep. What should people be doing

to optimize sleep, to improve muscle function and longevity?

BEN

I love that you bring this stuff up. And to be honest, you’re the most well rounded practitioner that I have talked to in the

last five years, so congratulations! Honestly, you’re doing awesome and I love what you’re doing, I’m listening to everybody

your way. Anything you want to tell people about, one last final thought on what they should be thinking about to live their

greatest life? Obviously we’ve talked about everything from hormone optimization to muscle optimization to training and

sleep and meditation. What is the one thing that you do that you believe creates your greatness?

BEN


23

Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

I always review every day and my why. Why I’m doing what I’m doing. And every action I take, that has to be able to fit into that

why. Why am I calling this person? Why am I giving this recommendation? Why am I reading this? Why am I spending time doing

this? It has to relate back to my greater purpose.

DR. GABRIELLE

To educate humanity and help them live well. Like to be a safe deposit. There’s so much false information. How can I help

people really take what they need, so they can be the best versions of themselves? Because ultimately we’re just a vessel.

How do they care for their vessels so they can have their highest purpose be expressed?

DR. GABRIELLE

They can find me on Instagram, at Dr. Gabrielle Lyon or my website, and that’s www.dr.gabriellelyon.com. I’m on Facebook, I’m

just working on that, I’ve been kind of out of social media for a long time, there’s no other way.

DR. GABRIELLE

A lot of teaching, so right now I’m going to be doing a lot of lecturing and teaching, and I really need to get my book finished.

Which is?

BEN

I love it. We’re talking the same language every day. This is fantastic, I’m so grateful to have connected with you Gabrielle,

where can people reach you?

BEN

What does 2018 have in store for you?

BEN


Gabrielle Lyon

DR. GABRIELLE

February I am teaching for Charles Polyquin, muscle-centered medicine, so you guys should all come to that.

DR. GABRIELLE

That is in Phoenix, and that’s February 4th. Then I’m teaching for the National, I’m going to be on the panel of the National

Spine Conference,and that’s the end of February. So those are the two things that I’ve got planned right now, and then a few

other things in the works.

DR. GABRIELLE

Very well outlined, and the introduction is done.

DR. GABRIELLE

How far along is your book?

Me too. Are you travelling around teaching for yourself, or you’re teaching for like other organizations?

BEN

Where is that?

BEN

How far along is your book?

BEN

I’m going to hold you free to the fire to get that out in the first half of 2018, because I’m doing the same.

BEN

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Gabrielle Lyon

BEN

About the same as you. I’ve got two full outlines, chapter outlines, table of contents kind of thing, and one is really extensive

and it’s long, so that one took me a long time. But the other one, I’m going to get done first. But that’s the problem, you did

the same as me. You have one idea, you’re like, “I really want to do this,” and the next week you’re like, “I need to do this too,

because they need to go hand in hand.” So that’s a big two, but they are my objectives to do too in 2018.

BEN

Yeah, I know, you better. And I’m going to be the first one to be promoting your book. So get it out there so we can help it be

promoted.

BEN

It’s been so great to connect, and I’m so grateful for what you’re doing. So please keep it up and let’s definitely keep in touch.

BEN

Let’s get real!

DR. GABRIELLE

Thanks so much.

DR. GABRIELLE

Awesome, thanks so much.

DR. GABRIELLE

Amazing. I will hold you to that!

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JOE DISPENZA - Ben PakulskiWelcome to the Muscle Expert podcast with Ben Pakulski, one of the world’s top professional bodybuilders – an expert on human performance and mindset