Islam Vs Christianity - Violence Or Peace Debate

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WhiteJewel Is AbuJaiyana (http://www.facebook.com/AbuJaiyana)

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10-27-09, 08:17#1

AteoForum Deacon

Filipino Freethinkers

Join Date: Apr 2008Location: New YorkPosts: 7,471


This debate will argue the following related propositions

Part 1: Islam Promotes Violence: affirmative by KnightjpPart 2: Christianity Promotes Violence: affirmative by WhiteJewel

Moderator: Ateo

Start date: 28 October 2009

This is the exclusive thread to the parties of this debate. The format andthe debate rules are shown below. Where the rules are explicit, I willapply the rules to specific situations. Where the rules are silent orimplicit, I will extrapolate the applicable rules based on myinterpretationof fairness and standard practice.

Except when the outcome is decided by the moderator due to seriousviolation of the rules, this debate is decided in the heart and mind ofindividual members of the audience. I invite the audience to look at thisdebate in three important criteria:1. Logical integrity - the ability to present a sound framework of the

argument and build it with logical consitency2. Factual support -- the ability to harness well documented facts3. Emotional appeal -- the appealing combination of persuasiveness andgentlemanly observance of the rules

Debate Format

Part 1: Islam Promotes Violence1. Affirmative Constructive: Knightjp2. Cross-Examination of Affirmative by Negative: 10 questions max.3. Affirmative replies to Cross-Examination of Negative4. Negative Constructive: WhiteJewel

5. Cross-Examination of Negative by Affirmative: 10 questions max.6. Negative replies to Cross-Examination of Affirmative

Part 2: Christianity Promotes Violence7. Affirmative Constructive: WhiteJewel8. Cross-Examination of Affirmative by Negative: 10 questions max.9. Affirmative replies to Cross-Examination of Negative10. Negative Constructive: Knightjp
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11. Cross-Examination of Negative by Affirmative: 10 questions max.12. Negative replies to Cross-Examination of Affirmative

Part 313. Affirmative Rebuttal: Knightjp14. Negative Rebuttal: WhiteJewel

15. Affirmative Rebuttal: Whitejewel16. Negative Rebuttal: Knightjp17. Rejoinder/Conclusion: Knightjp18. Rejoinder/Conclusion: WhiteJewel

Behavioral Rules (numbered for easy reference.)

1. Constructive speeches/posts must be used by each side to present newarguments.

2. Cross-examination posts must be limited only to the constructivespeeches or posts of the other side.

3. The debater being cross-examined is expected to answer the questionsdirectly.

4. During the rebuttal speeches/posts, no new arguments may bepresented.

5. Maximum Word Count limit for each post is 1,500 words. Questionsare part of the word count. Clarifications are part of the word count.Clarifications may be requested but no expectation is to be made that itwill be addressed. These will also be part of the word count.

6. Time limit is 3 days (72 hours) from the last post by the opponent.(Note: No further editing is allowed after posting. If editing is needed, PMthe mod for permission and a correction post may be inserted ifpermitted, but no change to the original post is still allowed.)

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and fair, but for the duration of the debate the debaters should accept theassumption that the moderator is trying his best to be fair despite theheated situation. If a debater has questions or would like the moderatorto rule on something that the moderator may have missed, the debatershould PM the moderator instead of cluttering the gallery with complaints.

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Last edited by Ateo; 10-27-09 at10:47.

10-28-09, 22:15#2

kn1ghtjp

Thinker

Christian brethren

Join Date: Oct 2005Posts: 4,830

Part 1 - 1. Affirmative Constructive

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The question before us in this debate is Does Islam promote violence?In this, i would say unequivocally, YES.

Something that we need to understand about Islam is that it is not achiefly spiritual movement like Christianity. It is a system that is political,cultural, and religious all at the same time. It addresses not just issues ofsin and forgiveness but of foreign policy, of the punishment of crimes, of

what a person is supposed to wear.

Islam splits the world into two realms: Dar Al Islam: the domain of thefaithful and peace-loving and Dar Al Harb: those with whom Muslimsare at war. Either you are of the house of Islam - House of IslamicPeace or you are in the house of War. And Islam dictates how Muslimstreat each group. Islam does offer peace. What if i offer Islamic peace toeach of you now? Submit to Islam and accept peace or be an unbeliever.And people know how muslims treat unbelievers... You dont accept? Whyare you a war loving bigot? You dont want peace? Tsk... Based on myresearch, what i found out about islam, if ever i convert to Islam, i will killyou peace hating infidels. I will start with Ateo, and then Pooch and theneverybody else. Not because i want to i like Pooch, but this is what

Islam teaches. Islam they say is a religion of Peace.

How do we know that Islam is NOT a religion of peace? When we examinethe Islamic texts, we find the Islamic solution to practically everythingis... VIOLENCE.

If people reject Islam The solution is to fight and kill them. (VIOLENCE)If people criticise Islam The solution is to murder them. (VIOLENCE)
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If people leave Islam The solution is to kill them. (VIOLENCE)If Muslim women disobey their husbands The solution is to beat them.(VIOLENCE)When criminals are caught the solution is to cut off parts of theirbodies. (VIOLENCE)

But if you submit to Islam, you will have PEACE, Islam style.

We will examine this Islamic Peace that this political, cultural, andreligious system brings the countries it has submitted under its rule. Wewill examine the founder of this system who exemplifies the Quran inaction. He happens to be a murderous warlord who killed numerouspeople and started a killing spree that spread across the ArabianPeninsula, half of Byzantine Asia all Persia and Egypt, and most of NorthAfrica. We will examine the teachings, the theology, the traditional usesof the Islamic text by Muslims that show a history of interpretation thatmandates a theology of violence to "unbelievers"

Evidence of its Founder

Evidence of HistoryEvidence of its Teachings

1) Evidence of its Founder

The teaching and example of Muhammad prescribes, describes andsanctions violence against non-Muslims (but if you submit[Islam] you willhave peace). It cannot be denied that it is written in the SiratRasulallah, a biography of Muhammad that there were several instancesthat Muhammad commanded the death of several people. They may giveexcuses for this, argue that the Jews did worse, or that this is no different

from any other violent country. This does not change the fact that thesewere acts of violence. Muhammad also allowed people to murder otherswho insulted him. Muhammad at least is so nice as to give advancewarning at times: I swear by Him who has my soul in his hands, I wassent to you with nothing but slaughter.- hadith

Here are a few examples that are exemplified in the Islamic textsIbn Sunayna - murdered because he was simply a JewAbu Afak - murdered while he sleptAsma Marwan - murdered while she sleptA slave woman, - murdered while she sleptOne-eyed shepherd - murdered while he sleptAn old woman - ripped in half by Muslims who captured her on a raid.A slave girl - murdered because she ridiculed Muhammad.

This is the Islam Muhammad practiced. Telling his followers to attackJews and Christians (but peace if they submit) because they were peace-hating bigots who do not submit to Islam. Here is another samplecommand Muhammed gave his followers:

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you findthem. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere forthem. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allowthem to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

Yes, peace to them if they submit. If they dont well, its their fault. Thatis Islamic peace. Normal people call it VIOLENCE.

2) Evidence of History

When Islamic terrorists follow the teachings of Islam and blow up abuilding, or crash a plane full of people, they are said to be extremists,


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only a small group, and not representative of muslims who follow thehouse of peace. Let us then look at those of the Da r Al Islam or theHouse of Peace where Sharia Law is practiced. If we look at countrieswith the most percentage of who are muslim, those that would berepresentative of this system of government and culture and religion,what do we see?

Let me list a few countries with a muslim percentage of total populationAfghanistan - 99.7%Tunisia -99.5%Iran -99.4%Western Sahara - 99.4%Azerbaijan - 99.2%Mauritania - 99.1%Yemen - 99.1%Iraq - 99%Morocco - 99%Niger - 98.6%Somalia - 98.5%

Maldives - 98.4%Comoros - 98.3%Jordan - 98.2%Algeria - 98%Turkey - 98%Saudi Arabia - 97%Djibouti - 96.9%Libya - 96.6%Pakistan - 96.3%Uzbekistan - 96.3%Now, if there is one word that comes to mind when we look at this list ofnations with each of their colourful histories, what is it? VIOLENCEEither they are those who intermittently war on neighbouring countries orthey had violence because an Islamic country conquered them.

3) Evidence of its Teachings

It cannot be denied that there is violence in the Islamic system ifobserved by non-muslims. How is it if Islam itself means Peace orsubmission to Allah? What we need to understand is what Islam considersas violence. Islam can claim to be opposed to violence, that is, when theydefine violence as rough or immoderate vehemence. They are alsoopposed to violence if violence means unjust force against theperceived rights of others. They do not call violence those acts which can

be rough or injurious as long as it is in accordance with the sharia. Aslong as it is allowed by Islamic teaching, it is not violence but acts ofpeace, Islamic peace.

Consider the following: Quran Sura 9:29-31: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the lastday, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and HisApostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of thepeople of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, andfeel themselves subdued.

Muslims would often say that these verses are quoted out of context so itis important for us to know the context. This says that under certainconditions, you can fight people and commit violence. Without theseconditions, they should pursue peace. IF this, and that, even if they arethe people of the book (Jews who believe in one God), until this and that,muslims should fight them. Actually, the passages say that without theselimitations, muslims SHOULD do VIOLENCE.


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As we can see, Islam does indeed promote PEACE in a sense but intheir religions teachings and methods used in propagating their

PEACE,ISLAM PROMOTES VIOLENCE.

__________________

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD

10-28-09, 23:18#3

WhiteJewelAsk Those Who Know

For The Things WhichYou Dont Know

Join Date: Jun 2009Location: PhilippinesPosts: 5,929

Cross Exam #1

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Assalamu Alaikum Peace Be Unto you This is the universal greetingsin Islam taught by the Quran and our beloved Prophet pbuh So howcould Islam be a violence-promoting religion???

Islam is not based on what people say or do, but what is taught in theQuran and the Teachings of Noble Prophet pbuh as an actual applicationof what has been revealed in the Quran. The Quran was revealed instages for 23 years in segments with the corresponding event (asbabunnuzul) or reason for the revelation and whether it brings a general rulingor an instruction specific for certain situation.

The Quran did not leave its interpretation open for everyone but it givesemphasis as to who should interpret it and this is none other than theman who understood it best, the Noble Prophet pbuh.

1. An-Nahl: With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed untothee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which

hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. (44)

2. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever heforbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah isstern in reprisal. (59:7)

I will only select some scattered points from kn1ghtjps 1st stand becausesome of his points are redundant.

Questions for my opponent:

If people reject Islam The solution is to fight and kill them

1. Give me the shariah source that says this and what is its basisfrom the Quran and the authentic ahadith

Ibn Sunayna - murdered because he was simply a Jew

2. Give the authentic source for this event and was he executedby the order of the Prophet simply because he was a Jew.
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"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you findthem. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere forthem. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allowthem to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Sura 9:5

3. When, where and why was this verse revealed? *as babunnuzul*

You cited many countries which you considered Muslim countriesimplementing the shariah. My questions regarding them arethese:

4. How did you know that those countries are practicing a mereshariah or a shariah islamiya? I would be delighted to knowbecause no group of Muslim Scholars considers those countriesimplementing shariah islamiya. Even Saudi Arabia did not

implement shariah islamiya in its totality.

5. Would you judge the religion based on what people do or basedon what it actually teaches?

Quran Sura 9:29-31: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the lastday, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and HisApostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of thepeople of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, andfeel themselves subdued.

6. When, where and why was this verse revealed? *as babunnuzul*

The rest of the names listed, I would not entertain because there is noauthentic reference given and the identity of their persons areincomplete, where and when it happened.

It is evident that kn1ghjp doesnt have an authentic source or book; hemerely gets his information from anti-Islamic websites. It is also clearthat he doesnt know the authentic sources of Islamic jurisprudence.

I repeat, Islam is based on the Quran and the authentic ahadith. Evenahadith which are categorized as weak cant be used as evidence inIslamic Jurisprudence, how much more a mere isolated history?

In kn1ghtjps response, you will see how poor his attack onIslam.

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever

rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, thatnever breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256


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10-29-09, 10:25#4

AteoForum Deacon



Excellent starting posts for the two debaters. We are off to a good start.

Knightjp's affirmative reply is the next expected action.

I have not observed any violation of the rules and format and none hasbeen pointed out to me yet. I have, however, some observations for theconsideration of the debaters in order to make the debate even easier tofollow by our audience.

1. Knightjp's list of countries does not have a cited source. It needs one

so that the audience can verify if the numbers are true. The same wouldhave been needed in the list of murdered persons, but I won't dwell onthat because it is subject to a cross question anyway.

2. WhiteJewel's opening paragraphs (12 lines) already look like a briefaffirmative statement. There is a better place for that than in a cross-exam post.

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10-29-09, 12:15

#5

AteoForum Deacon



Let me also add that WhiteJewel's second question can be seen as twodistinct requests for responses separated by "and".

Give the authentic source for this eventandwas he executed by theorder of the Prophet simply because he was a Jew.

But it is okay because he did not exceed the maximum number ofquestions anyway.

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10-30-09, 07:39#6

AteoForum Deacon



Rulings:

1. I cite WhiteJewel for violation of Rule #10 (disallowed type of post inthe gallery) because of his post #197. [1 point]

2. I issue a gentle warning for subsequent posts that WhiteJewel made inthe gallery. The spirit of the rule is that there should not be anysignificant posts there that will support a debater's cause. [ 0 point]

3. I did not find Knightjp's post#190 at the gallery as a violation of Rule#10.

__________________



11-01-09, 03:02 #7

AteoForum Deacon



Rulings:

4. I cite Knightjp for violation of Rule #6 (non-posting within the allotedtime). This is a serious violation. [2 points]

5. With due respect to the great interest that this debate has generatedin its audience and the presumed audience desire for this debate tocontinue, I give Knightjp an extension of 2 days (48 hours from from thetime ofthis post) to post or send me an explanation by PM.

Summary of infraction points:Knightjp: 2WhiteJewel: 1
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__________________




11-01-09, 21:26

#8

kn1ghtjp

Thinker

Christian brethren


3. Affirmative replies to Cross-Examination of Negative


I am very sorry for the late post.

Here are my Affirmative replies to Cross-Examination of Negative

On WJs opening comments regarding Islam, I would say thatIslam is what Islam does as it is a product of its teachings. Im sure that

WJ would not agree that Muslims are a bunch of hypocrites who teachone thing but do another. IF it can be demonstrated that Muslims areindeed hypocrites, then that would prove my proposition to be false but itis up to WJ to construct that argument to prove it.

On WJs comments that only the noble prophet should interpret theQuran inferring that i should not do so, then i would argue that this alsoshould apply to him if he tries to apply it to me. He himself should notinterpret the Quran since he is not the noble prophet nor is he as cute asthe noble prophet. He could not then tell us what it says. It would also betroublesome as the noble prophet did not leave interpretations in Englishand any translation would already contain an interpretation.

Answers to Questions

A1) WJ asks for a source - It is written in the Quran itself and is wellknown by many muslims and terrorist bombers. In fact, this is the versethat i quoted in point 3Quran Sura 9:29-31: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the lastday, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and HisApostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of thepeople of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, andfeel themselves subdued.And since WJ doesnt like me giving commentary on his Quran, let megive you an explanation from a well known and respected muslim, Ibn

Katheer who is known by muslims as a qadi, a master scholar of historyand a mufassir (Qur'an commentator).

(see:http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20998)

Now, even if the verse itself clearly says that they should fight the pagansand only the Christians or the Jews if and only if the do not pay thejizziyah (to humiliate them), in Ibn Katheers explanation, the master
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muslim scholar writes that it is justified to include even the Jews and theChristians with the pagans since those who claim belief in the one Godare no different from the pagans anyway.

(see also:http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20986note -

May Allah fight them who are the instruments of Allah? A) The

muslims)

Now, while i appreciate WJs help in pointing me to the shariah, hisloaded question that infers it should be in the shariah to be Islamicteaching would have to presuppose that if it were not articulated in theshariah, it would NOT be muslim teaching and therefore it would not bepart of Islam. I do not think my muslim opponent would try to argue thatproposition.

A2) Here is where WJ asks:Give the authentic source for this event and was he executed by theorder of the Prophet simply because he was a Jew.

The event is told in Sirah Rasul Allah (the collection of biographies ofMuhammmad) specifically the text attributed to Ibn Ishaq gathered fromthe writings of Ibn Hisham (As-Sirah an-Nabawiyyah) and Muhammad ibnJarir al-Tabari (al sirah).The text in English says:The apostle said, 'Kill any Jew that falls into your power.' ThereuponMuhayyisa b. Mas`ud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant withwhom they had social and business relations, and killed him.Here is an excerpt by Sunan Abu Dawud

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c....html#019.2996

To be fair to WJ, the texts condition is not simply because if the man is aJew. The muslim also must have him in his power or must have gained avictory over him. Otherwise, it would obviously be very difficult to killhim if he is not in a position to do so. I will have to concede that issue.

A3) WJ asks for a commentary giving a contextual background on Sura9:5. Although i am flattered that WJ would ask me for such a grandundertaking (completely designed to waste my time IMHO) let me givethe opinion and commentary of a few of the most well known MuslimScholars.

Material from the Maariful Tafsir

It means that they had, though, forfeited all their rights by breaking the treaty obligation, but

observing the sanctity of the sacred months was after all necessary, therefore, they shouldeither leave the Arabian Peninsula soon after the sacred months expire, or embrace Islam, or be

prepared to face war.

The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir

... Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat (verse or passage) as proof for

fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless,

and until, they embrace Islam and implement its ruling and obligations.

The Tafsir of Jalalayn

... until they have no choice except [being put to] death or [acceptance of] Islam ...

A4) In this question, WJ asks if the countries listed were practicing amere shariah or a shariah islamiya . In this, my answer is that i do

not make any distinction. Whether it is one of 7 flavours of shariah or amickey mouse shariah is not my argument rather that these countrieswere populated by muslims and would be countries representative ofcountries that observe muslim teaching. If WJ wishes to argue that if acountry does not practice shariah islamiya then they are not a muslimcountry because they are muslims practicing mere shariah, he will befree to do so in his constructive.
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A5) Asks how Islam is to be judged (based on what people do or basedon what it teaches). As i stated in my constructive, Islam is a political,cultural, and religious movement. How do you judge a religioussystem? A) by its beliefs. How do you judge a political system? A) Byboth its policies AND its actions. How do you judge a culture? A) by whatits people do.

In this, Islam, being a religious, political, and cultural system, it shouldbe judged by all three. In WJ's question, the answer then is both. Islam isboth what Islam does and what Islam teaches.

A6) Here again WJ asks me for an exposition on a famous passage thatwas used by the terrorist bombers of 9/11 to justify their actions.Again i would like to point to the words of Ibn Katheer, a most respectedMuslim Scholar and commentator his explanation for the passage. Pleaserefer to the links in A1) that deal with this exact same passage. Thisquestion has been fully dealt with in A1)

While WJ says he will pretend that the rest of the names listed do notexist i would like to remind him that i do not ask for his birth certificate to

prove that he exists. When i mention Gloria Arroyo or the Showbizdaughter of Cory Aquino, both names or identities though incompleteshould be familiar to him without citing sources or documentation, theburden of proof is on him to prove that such people dont exist because historical sources have not been cited for Gloria Arroyo or Cory Aquino.He chose not to cross examine the facts presented or clarify if they areunclear to him, thus they stand. I do think WJ would be the very firstperson to jump up and down if i presented a fact he knows does notexist.

WJ even tries to argue that the proposition "Islam promotes violence" isfalse because in his words "how poor his (kn1ghtjp's) attack on Islam(is)". I would advise him to save all his arguments for his constructive.

__________________


11-02-09, 00:18#9

AteoForum Deacon



Thank you for your post, Knightjp.

The debate will now proceed to Item 4 of the Format -- the NegativeContructive.

I believe that this debate is shaping up very well and may exceed the

already high expectations of its audience. Good luck to the debaters.
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__________________




11-02-09, 04:05#10


For The Things Which

You Dont Know

Join Date: Jun 2009

Location: PhilippinesPosts: 5,929

4. Negative Constructive

In the name of God Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Let me greet you with the universal Islamic Greetings, Assalamu Alaikum,which means May Peace Be with you.

Islam comes from the root word silm or salam which literallymeans peace. In Islamic concept, it means peace through submissioncomplete submission to the will of God Almighty. Complete submission tothe will of God produces peace between man and God, between man andhis fellow men, and between man and the rest of Gods creation.

Islam doesnt only teach to respect the rights of every human being, butalso to respect the rights of plants and animals. If a person submits toIslam completely, surely he could attain peace within himself, and withhis fellow men.

Does Islam promote violence? Obviously NO! In fact it is a promoter ofpeace as explained above. The Quran says that , killing any personwithout a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity andsaving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the wholehumanity. 5: 32

What could be more fearful on the Day of Judgment when aperson will be held responsible for killing the whole humanity thatis as if you killed Adam, all the Prophets, until the last infant bornbefore the world ends?

Islam is not based on what the people do, but it is what the people issupposed to do as instructed in the Quran and the authentic ahadith, northat Islam is based on hearsay, isolated stories ect. Had it not because ofthe so-called SAHIH ISNAD, people could interpret anything as they wishabout matters in Islam.

My opponent was correct in his understanding that Islam is not just amere religion which is concerned only about spiritual matters. It is acomplete way of life; political, economic, social, ect. This is why when themission of the Noble Prophet was about to end and all instructions havebeen cleard, God revealed this verse This day I have perfected you deen*way of life translated as religion* for you, and completed My favor uponyou and choosen Islam ay your deen. 5:3
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Islam is based on the so-called five pillars: 1 to testify that there is nogod but God and Muhammad s.a.w. is Gods last prophet *after JesusChrist a.s.* 2 Establishing the 5 obligatory prayers in a day, 3 Givingcharity to the poor when ones wealth reach to the specified limit , 4

Observing fast on the month of Ramadan if one is able, and 5 pilgrimage to the ancient house of worship built by Abraham and his sonEshmail if one is able financially and physically. sahih bukhari, book 2hadith #7

Islam teaches that after believing in God, the next thing to do is torespect the parents, kinsfolk, orphans, the poor, the neigbor who is nearof kin, the neighbor who is a stranger, the companion by your side, thewayfarer, and those slaves *as part of the norms before*. Verily Goddoes not like such as proud and boastful. 4:36.

This is not an option for a Muslim, but an obligation to done as much as

one can. If every person does them, therell be no violence but peace onearth.

God has informed us in the Quran that all of mankind is in the state oflose as time goes by with the exception of those 1- who believe in God, 2-do righteous good deeds by enjoining what is right and forbidding whatis wrong, 3 - advice one another about the truth and 4 - those whorecommend one another to patience. 103:1-3

The Noble Prophet said None of you will have faith till he wishes for hisbrother *fellow men* what he wishes for himselfsahih bukhari, book 2hadith #12

This teaching is considered to be much better than Confucius so-calledgolden rule because it doesnt just discourages people to harm otherpeople, but it further encourages people to wish for his fellowmen whathe wishes for himselfLove.

He further said when he was asked what sort of deeds in Islam are good,To feed the poor and greet those whom you know and those you dontknow sahih bukhari, book 2 hadith #27.

I can list hundreds of good deeds that every Muslim is required to do asmuch as he can for the sake of God, but a million words is not enoughhere so to speak esp. with the word limit allowed.

Islam forbids killing without just cause 5:32, and even with thepermission to take the life of a certain individual, its not for anyone tojudge, but by the legitimate government with its judicial system. Exampleare those who commit murder, 17: 33 those who incite sedition ortreason and the like called apostates, and those who abandon his deen,that is, not following or willful disobedience to the government that wouldlead to civil disobedience. In these instances, Islam allows thegovernment only to take the life of an individual in order to maintainpeace and order in the community. 6: 151

A latin maxim says salus populi est suprema lex the welfare of thepeople is the supreme law. It is as if injecting a painful medication toones body. Though its painful at the injection site, the benefit of makingthe body cured from a disease outweighs the suffering of that pain. In


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times of war, soldiers are allowed to kill but with exceptions; children,women, priests or religious leaders, old men, animals, cut trees with nopurpose. Soldiers are only to fight the combatants from the enemies.

Islam also prohibits backbiting it is as if you eat the dead flesh of your

dead brother, who would want that?? 49:12. It is not even allowed to spyone another or to have too much suspicion.

Islam also forbids anything that intoxicates because this could be acause, as a matter of fact, a great cause of violence among the people.Satan uses it to excite enmity and hatred among the people 5:90-92.

All what that I have explained above are only few things about Islambeing a peaceful religion, but it is already enough to conclude that Islamdoes hate violence, but rather it promotes peace.

Let me now come about the so-called violent verses in the Quran.Ignorant people interpret the Quran like they do to the bible or otherliteratures; pick and choose, copy & paste. There are methods ininterpreting the Quran:

Quran interprets itself intertextual interpretation

The reason of the revelation of an ayah asbabun nuzul (Ulum Al Quranpp. 155-156)

How the Noble Prophet interpret it Tafseer bis sunnah surah 16:44 &59:7 (Ulum Al Quran p. 214)

How the Sahabah has understood it - (Ulum Al Quran p. 215)

Let me address the verses quoted by my opponent and see how poor andfaulty those allegations are:

Surah 9:5 This verse was revealed in connection to the treachery ofthe pagan Beduin Arabs who ambushed the Muslim army without anyjustification but only hatred to Islam despite the existing peace treaty.

This was revealed on Dhul Qadah 9 AH.(Intro. To the Quran p.23). TheMuslims on that time in Madina has an established government. It is aninherent right of any state to exercise its governmental powers i.esovereignty against any rebels. However, this command applies only tothose who were responsible for the treacherous among them and doesntwant to repent. Those who repent and ask for protection shall be givenprotection and be escorted to a place of safety9:6 . My opponentdoesnt even bother to read the next verse which explains the context ofthe verse 5.

Sura 9:29-31- This was revealed in connection to the killing of theambassador of the Muslims Al Harith bin Umair Al Azdi by the Byzantines,Rajab, year 9 AH. This considered as an open declaration of war againstone state. (Ar-raheeq Al makhtum p.422). So if they wont surrender theculprits then the Muslims were allowed to retaliate for Justice.

As we see, those verses are NOT commandments for every Muslimliving today. They are general guidelines that could be applied insituations when an ambassador of an Islamic state is killed without just


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cause; its armies are killed without just cause. This is practiced by almostall, if not all, government today because it is logical and practical.

Islam doesnt kill people just because they dont accept Islam becausethere is no compulsion in religion 2:256

Islam is not what the Arabs or naughty Muslims do. It is what itactually teaches. It promotes peace and resists evil.

In my humble study with this religion, and on the authenticsources which I have provided, I would say that only thoseignorant in Islamic jurisprudence would say that Islam promotesviolence.

Thank you.

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoeverrejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, thatnever breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256

11-02-09, 13:11#11

AteoForum Deacon



Thank you for your prompt post, WhiteJewel.

We now proceed to Item #5 of the debate format - Cross examinationquestions by the Affirmative.

__________________




11-02-09, 13:19#12
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AteoForum Deacon


Join Date: Apr 2008Location: New York

Posts: 7,471

Rulings:

6. There was a question on the appropriateness of quotations (blue text)

made by Knightjp in his post #8 in light of Rule #7 (rule limiting quotesfrom the internet). After a thorough study, I rule that Knightjp is not inviolation of the rule. My detailed explanation is shown in the Gallery, post#232. [ 0 point]

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sho...=46454&page=16

7. While I studied the above issue, I noticed that Knightjp has improvedin attributing sources. However, he is still not thorough enough becausehe failed to cite the sources of his three quotes. I issue this last warningthat all quotes must cite their sources. [ 0 point]

__________________




11-04-09, 21:29#13

kn1ghtjp

Thinker

Christian brethren

Join Date: Oct 2005

Posts: 4,830

We would like to thank WJ for thetaqiyyahe has given to us infidels. It

is my sincere hope that he is not mistaken in thinking that his efforts are

unappreciated and that we do not see his posts for what they truly are.

I am sure that we, that is, the audience and i would appreciate somepoints of clarification though. The questions for WJ are listed below:

1. Is it your argument that since Islam preaches peace, therefore itcannot promote violence?

2. There are three Arabic words that can be variously translated aspeace. They are as transliterated,salaam, hudna,and suhl. Salaam is the peace of submission as you havementioned in your constructive submit to Allah and you will havepeace (or else).Hudna is the word used for a cease-fire or atemporary truce. And then there is SUHL which means

reconciliation. It is the word used when conflict and hostility is tobe ended and amity and friendships between groups is desired. Isthis last meaning the peace that you say Islam preaches in yourconstructive?

3. Is it your argument that since Islam forbids intoxication, therefore,Islam cannot promote violence?

4. In your constructive, you mentioned Let me address the versesquoted by my opponent and see how poor and faulty those
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allegations areBy this, do you mean to say that the explanations given by therespected muslim scholars Ibn Katheer, Jalal al-Din al-Mahalli and his student, and the professor and grand Mufti ofDarul-Uloom Deoband, the well-known university of the IslamicSciences, Maulana Mufti Muhammad Shafi who wrote the

Ma'ariful-Qur'an, are poor and faulty? Do you mean to say thattheir allegations are wrong and that yours is right or that bothyours and theirs are right even if your explanation and theirsdiffer?

I sincerely hope that WJ could clarify these questions for us. I wouldhave liked to ask more questions regarding his constructive, but thenumber and quality of his arguments seem sorely lacking and severelyhampers my doing so, I hope that WJ has not forgotten that he cannotconstruct new arguments in the rebuttals and is now stuck with thearguments he has constructed thus far. It just seems such a waste.

__________________


11-05-09, 18:47#14




6. Negative replies to Cross-Examination of Affirmative

In the Name of God, Most Gracious Most Merciful

Before Ill answer the CE questions for me by kn1ghtjp, I would like topoint out his hypocrisy in alleging me of making taqqiyyah in giving myanswers and negative construct. I call it HYPOCRISY because taqqiyyah

mean to lie or to pretend in order to save ones life. His definition oftaqqiyyah is so faulty in Islamic concept, and that he showed clearignorance in Islamic terms. I dont know how kn1ghtjp had the guts inengaging with this kind of debate when he has very poor knowledgeabout Islam and as we saw, his sources are from websites. This is thevery reason why it would take a very long time for kn1ghtjp to post hisarguments, even only asking CE questions about my argument.

I find it as an ad hom for accusing me of making taqqiyyah in a negativesense. This accusation has no basis at all because taqqiyyah is an act ofthe mind which means only the person who does it and God alone couldknow about it so how could somebody accuse one person of makingtaqqiyyah when he doesnt know what is in the mind of that person. Its aclear HYPOCISY. This is the reason why I challenge him for this type/kindof debate because he blasphemed our God while he is moderating ourdebate with benmarcing. His attitude didnt change. I hope the moderatorwill make an appropriate action for this ad hom.

Answers to my opponents questions:
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1. I did not only explain that Islam preaches peace but also I clearlyemphasized that it promotes peace. Therefore, to think or assume that italso teaches violence is a big mistake because it would be a clearcontradiction of terms. There is no such thing as 100% white and 100%

black both at the same time.

I also explained that though Islam allows an Islamic government to fightor take the life of a certain individual in order to maintain peace andorder in the society, and this is being practiced by all governmentsIslamic and non-Islamic alike.

Issuing a gun to a police officer who is ready to shoot a criminal whodoesnt want to surrender doesnt mean that the government is violent. Itis in fact a way of maintaining peace and order in the society.

So Islam doesnt only preach peace but also promotes peace andtherefore doesnt and cant promote violence.

2. I clearly explained the Islamic definition of Islam; that it literarilymeans peace. In Islamic concept, it means peace through submissioncomplete submission to the will of God Almighty. Complete submission tothe will of God produces peace between man and God, between man andhis fellow men, and between man and the rest of Gods creation.I just dont know where and how did kn1ghtjp thought about HUDNA andSUHL. Kn1ghtjp must had a weird imagination in finding mistakes in mypost for almost 3 days ago.

Let me teach him basic concept in Arabic language:

Arabic is a very rich language; one root word could form many words outof it, but those words sound the same or bear the root word which theywere formed. Example: Islam, salam, salama, silm, ect.

I would like to ask my opponent to explain how Islam, hudna, and suhl,relate to each other in terms of their meanings and root word in hisrebuttal/s. This must be new information for us.

So Islam is what I already have defined in my negative construct, and notthese HUDNA and/or SUHL stuff. I have never heard of any scholar or

authentic Islamic books using Islam, hudna and suhl interchangeable.It is so clear that my opponent did not understand the examples andclear explanation in my negative construct.

3. I clearly said that God told us in the Quran that anything thatintoxicates is forbidden. Intoxicants like any wine or beer which theChristian doesnt forbid are forbidden in Islam. Satan uses them to inciteenmity among people. When a person is drunk, he loses his dignity, hereveals secretes that should not be revealed, and usually fight our peoplejust for some little things, ect.

So by forbidding wine, beers, ect. Is not only a means of promotingpeace, but also one of the ways of preventing violence.

I would suggest to my opponent to understand the context of everythingthat I have mentioned. I believe that my English is so easy for us tounderstand.


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4. You quoted what you called tafseer of different scholars, but you didnot put the entirety of their tafaseer which is so doubtful and cant beused as evidence. You did not mentioned the book title, page number of

those tafaseer. In court, it is inadmissible as evidence because it isconsidered as fruit of a poisonous tree because you just copied it fromanti-Islamic websites which are fond of fabricating documents. Even someahadith are now being distorted and fabricated. This is why we need tocross check them with our authenticated codices here.

Next time, when you quote Islamic scholars, dont just do cherry-picking,put the entirety of their tafaseer, provide the title of their book and thepage number and volume number as well. I have here the 10 volumes oftafseer Ibn Katheer it says exactly what you have quoted. Cherry-pickingnever works on me kn1ghtjp especially in matters about my religion.

The asbabun nuzol which I have provided for those verses are more thanenough to refute your arguments, and a solid proof that you andwhichever websites you copied from DISTORTED the context of thosescholars tafaseer.

Now, ladies and gents;

It is clear for me that my opponent merely relies on websites. He didntreally have the sure knowledge about Islam except of what we callTSISMIS, and a person who does it is known as STISMOSO.

I would be very ashamed if Ill assert that something or someone is suchand such based on hearsay.

As you have seen, I provided the clear references of my arguments, pagenumber, etc. I dont rely on websites because it is a very ridiculous thingto do. On the other hand, my opponent kn1ghtjp has given us LINKS ofwebsites which are not recognized by the mainstream of Islamic

Scholarship. This is also a clear evidence that kn1ghtjp merely relies onwebsites.

It is also clear that kn1ghtjp doesnt know the hierarchy of laws in Islamicjurisprudence. This is his big, big problem. If you are presented withsahih ahadith, you dont opposed it with anybodys opinion or interpretation because surely that is a clear sign of ignorance. It is as ifyou are trying to invalidate a statute (Republic Act) with an ordinance.This will never work at all.

My opponent wrote:

I hope that WJ has not forgotten that he cannot construct new argumentsin the rebuttals and is now stuck with the arguments he has constructedthus far. It just seems such a waste.

I say, kn1ghtjp is hoping that the will outshine the sun at daytime during


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summer. I was hoping that he could find a single mistake of what I haveposted, but he have shown nothing. He did not attack my presentationabout Islam being a religion of peace but merely questioned about thecredibility of his sources. Hindi man lang naka-tama kahit isang suntoklangso to speak.

Thank you.

Ill post my affirmative construct soon after mod ateo will give me the gosignal.

Peace!

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoeverrejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, thatnever breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256

11-06-09, 09:07#15

AteoForum Deacon



I thank WhiteJewel for yet another prompt posting. It is an impasssionedresponse to the cross examination.

To our audience, we thank you for your intense attention to this debate.We have reached the end of Part 1 -- Islam Promotes Violence. We willnow proceed to Part 2 -- Christianity Promotes Violence. This time,WhiteJewel will start with his Affirmative Constructive. He may proceed.

__________________



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11-06-09, 09:42#16

AteoForum Deacon



Housekeeping tasks are in order...

Rulings

8. WhiteJewel found Knightjp's use of Taqqiyyah as an ad hom. I did notfind it as such. While I emphatize with WhiteJewel's feeling of beingoffended when somebody uses his religious concepts erroneously, but Icannot find a clear blasphemy or ad-hom in it. For the benefit of ouraudience and as WhiteJewel pointed out, Taqqiyyah refers to the conceptof lying to conceal one's faith when under serious risk. Knightjp's use of

the term is simply an artful or innovative way of saying that WhiteJewel isconcealing the violent nature of his religion. And that is a valid argumentin a debate. [0 point]

9. On the other hand, WhiteJewel used the term "TSISMOSO" in thecontext of "a person who does it is known as STISMOSO. I findthis almostad-hom except of that he did not direct it to Knightjp but to "aperson" in general, although the direction is clear. Gentle warning. Ifound it slightly more serious though his use of the term "ignorant in hispost #10 in the context of "only those ignorant in Islamic jurisprudencewould say that Islam promotes violence." This is uncalled for because thedebate topic is precisely that -- Islam promotes violence -- so WhiteJewelis saying that anybody, just anybody, who debates on the affirmative is

automatically ignorant. Serious warning. Again, this does not constitutead-hom but it is right at the edge and I will be less tolerant next time. [0point]

10. A poster complained against WhiteJewel's use of the phrase "Hindiman lang naka-tama kahit isang suntok lang." I did not find the phraseobjectionable. [0 point]

In conclusion, I am in a dilemma here. On one hand, I like acerbiccomments in a debate (I like my lemon juice really sour :)). On the otherhand, I am tending a pressure-cooker debate here so I have to keep astrong hand on the lid, guys. So, please keep the acerbic comments but

be subtle and creative, although, frankly, I will be the one to decide if youhave been subtle enough or already too brutal. :)
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__________________




11-06-09, 23:24#17




Part 2: Christianity Promotes Violence 7. Affirmative Constructive

In the Name of Allah ,*God Almighty* Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Greetings to all; I welcome everyone with the Islamic greetings,Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wa barakatuh. * May Peace andBlessings of Almighty God be on all of you.

Let me remind our observers on the issue on this part 2 debate. It is theissue on whether or not Christianity promotes violence. I want to givemore emphasis on Christianity rather than Christians because there arepeace-loving Christians despite violent teachings of Christianity, as thereare also violent muslims despite peaceful teachings of Islam.

In this part of my speech, we would be able to know whether or not myopponent is truly an advocate of the violent teaching of Christianity or heis among the peace-loving people.

Being violent or peace-loving is an act of the heart and mind. A personmay not be doing anything wrong yet, but he is considered as violent ifhe doesnt condemn violence because it is an express adherence to it.

Christian faith is based on the teachings of the bible. Doctrines likeoriginal sin, lamb sacrifice, ect are rooted in the OT, hence, the OT is an

integral part of the Christian faith. Christianity claims to bemonotheist, therefore the God in the OT is the same God in theNT, please take note.

When we read the OT, we find passages about wars, killings, ect, whichseem to be violent in nature.

However, war is in itself cant be considered promoting violence especiallyif it is done in order to suppress oppression and or crimes. It is in fact aninherent right of every community or state to protect the people from anyform of oppression and or crime; this is in fact promoting peace ratherthan violence.

My objection is not those wars mentioned in the OT but the direct ordersfrom God which are clearly inhumane from both theists and atheistspoint of view.Examples:


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1. Killing of infants during the war -Isaiah 13:15-18

2. Killing of women *non-combatant women*

3. Killing of animals which had nothing to do with the war -1 Samuel

15:2-3

4. Mass genocide which is a horrible crime in any society -Ezekiel 9:5-7,Joshua 6:20-21,Judges 20:48

5. Killing of the followers of other religions -Deuteronomy 13:7-

12,Exodus 22:19,2 Chronicles 15:12-13

6. Killing of Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night -Deuteronomy 22:20-21

Those are just few of numerous passages in the OT which is taught inChristianity as genuine order/direct order from God of both the OT and

NT.Now, my points are the following:

1. What is/are the rationale, logical, humane explanation in Christianitywhy their God give those horrible mass murder crimes? I cant see anyreason why infants, women, children, believers of other religion be put todeath, and even the cattles and livestocks too. What crime did theycommit so that death is justified for them??

2. Does my opponent condemn or condone the mass murder ordered bythe biblical God in the OT??? If he doesnt condemn it, it means hecondone it because no rational person could remain silent about evilthings especially about mass murders and/or genocide.

Let me proceed to the NT:

According to Christianity Jesus is God who came down to earth. Beingstuck in a human body, his power became limited as he is to act as aLamb of God yet still God in and of itself Jesus is God in human flesh asthey call him.Now, if there is one God, and Jesus is God, then he is the very same God

who ordered the genocide and mass murder in the OT.

The way he spoke is really so provocative and murderous;

Examples:

1. A wicked and adulterous generation.Matthew 12:39

2. You snakes! You blood of vipers!Matthew 23:33

3. You foolish people!Luke 11:40

4. He saidBut those enemies of mine who did not want me to be a kingover them bring them here and kill them in front of me.Luke 19:27

5. The woman came and knelt before him Lord help me she said. Jesusreplied it is not right to take the childrens bread and toss it to thedogs.Matthew 15:25-26
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isaiah%2013.15-18http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isaiah%2013.15-18http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isaiah%2013.15-18http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Joshua%206.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Joshua%206.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Joshua%206.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Judges%2020.48http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Judges%2020.48http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Judges%2020.48http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Exodus%2022.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Exodus%2022.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chronicles%2015.12-13http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chronicles%2015.12-13http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chronicles%2015.12-13http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2022.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2022.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2022.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2012.39http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2012.39http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2012.39http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2023.33http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2023.33http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2023.33http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2011.40http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2011.40http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2011.40http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2015.25-26http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2015.25-26http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2015.25-26http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2015.25-26http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2011.40http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2023.33http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2012.39http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2022.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Chronicles%2015.12-13http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Exodus%2022.19http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%2013.7-12http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Judges%2020.48http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Joshua%206.20-21http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezekiel%209.5-7http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Samuel%2015.2-3http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Isaiah%2013.15-18


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Now, if you take Jesus as an example or model for yourself and you goand preach and call people with these very insulting, disrespectful,impolite, and tyrannical words, what peace could we expect from it??

Remember, a person who follows Jesus example in the bible is called a

Christian, a word derived from Christ (Jesus) Thus, Christianitypromotes violence.

Now, some may say that Jesus and his disciples did not wage war againstthe people so they must be peace-loving people because they onlyencouraged love.

The answer is obvious; during Jesus time and up to the time of hissupposed disciples, they were under a tyrant government the Romans.In fact, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus based on NT account.

One time Jesus ordered his disciples to sell their garments in order to buysword. When Jesus was arrested, Peter stroke his sword to one of thearmies and cut off his ear. But Jesus, seeing that the enemiesoutnumbered them, ordered his disciples to put down their sword andsaid those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

The disciples of Jesus were extremely afraid of the Romans and the Jews;after the alleged cruci-fiction of Jesus they went to the upper room hidingfor they were not allowed to work on Sabbath to the extent that theymade the room well closed so no one could see or notice them. How couldyou expect this small group to wage war?

What those so-called disciples did is obey the tyrannical and pagangovernment, BUT the hope for Jesus to come back anytime soon is thereand when we read the bible, it says that when Jesus comes back, hewill kill all his enemies ATHIESTS, AGNOSTICS, MUSLIMS, etc.,watch out all of you will be killed if you dont follow him.

Paul, who wrote the 50% of the NT who was not a disciple of Jesus, didnot focus on waging war because he had an obsession that Jesus willcome back anytime very soon. He thought that Jesus will descend from

heaven while he is still alive a take him, but unfortunately, Jesus neverdid until now.

Now we clearly see the clear pattern When Christianity is on the upperhand, they dont hesitate killing anybody who doesnt join them just likewhat their God did in the OT. HOWEVER, when they are weak, theyll sayoh cease fire, we are peace-loving guys BUT when Jesus comes backtheyll going to kill the non-Christians per Jesus order; But thoseenemies of mine who did not want me to be a king over them bringthem here and kill them in front of me.Luke 19:27.

Do you remember the pagan emperor who became a Christian? He wasConstantine, the one who standardized or shall we say made the trinity tobe the official Christian doctrine. The Christians were on power then, andwhat did they do??? Kill the followers of other religions; hunt the witches,murders and genocide here and there. Do you know about the crusadeand the inquisition period? Those were the times when the Christianswere on power.
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Luke%2019.27


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It was not until the resistant of the disciples of Prophet Muhammad pbuhlead by Khalid ibn Al Waleed which put an end to the tyrannical Christiansby throwing them out of the scene, Palestine, Syria, Constantinople(Turkey) Egypt and other places. Thanks to God that He restored Peacethrough sending His last Prophet pbuh.

SUMMARY:

1. My opponent has to give a logical/rational, and humane explanation ofthe genocide and mass murder orders of his God in the OT

2. Will my opponent condemn or condone those horrible genocide andmass murders?

3. The murderous, disrespectful, insulting, and impolite words of Jesus inthe bible, how would they promote peace? Would you dare to utter those

words in front of the atheists and Muslims?

4. The murderous intent of Jesus when he comes back which is accordingto Christian belief would surely happen; what about the atheists,agnostics, Muslims, and other non-Christians?

5. When given the power, Christians, as they did, killed all those whodont follow them which is legitimate based on OT law and Jesusmurderous intent and the prophecy about his second coming making thedead bodies of the non-Christians his footstool.

I believe that based on the biblical and historical references which I cited,Christianity is indeed a violent religion, and it promotes violence thoughthey seem to be peace-loving because they are not yet on power. Wewould also know whether or not kn1ghtjp is a peaceful Christian despiteviolent Christian teachings.

Thank you.

__________________

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoeverrejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that

never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.Surah 2:256

11-07-09, 14:03#18

AteoForum Deacon



Thank you very much, WhiteJewel, for your post on the Affirmativeposition of the proposition that "Christianity promotes violence."

Knightjp may proceed to post his cross examination questions.
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__________________



11-09-09, 20:25#19

kn1ghtjp

Thinker

Christian brethren


8. Cross-Examination of Affirmative by Negative


I thank you for your patience in being able to read thus far into thedebate. In the previous debate post, WJ was supposed to haveconstructed his arguments for why he believes that Christianity promotesviolence. Let us examine his logic (or lack thereof).

1. He gives us in bold letters: Christianity claims to bemonotheist, therefore the God in the OT is the same God inthe NT, please take note.

Islam claims to be monotheistic, therefore....Could WJ please complete the above sentence using the samelogic?

2. With reference to the main argument that WJ brings us, kill killkill, maim, kill, kill, yada, yada, yada. Along the same vein as ifyour eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, cut off your arm, etc. WJproposes that this is the teaching of Christianity thereforeChristianity must be a violent religion with a whole history ofkillings and beheadings and terrorist bombers and a whole lot of

one-eyed, one arm Christians walking around because of Christianteachings. My question to WJ is, why do i find what hes describedso familiar and yet so foreign to Christianity? Why cant i take himseriously? (WJ can consider these as 2 separate questions)

I think it is because it all sounds very Islamic. Is WJprojecting? (This is a rhetorical question and does not require ananswer.)

Ladies and gentlemen, due to the strength of my opponents arguments, ihave no further questions your honours. The defense rests. I might as wellsleep until closing arguments.

__________________


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11-09-09, 22:25

#20




9. Affirmative replies to Cross-Examination of Negative

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

At last kn1ghtjp has posted his long-awaited cross exam questions forme. I was expecting 10 questions from him because I presumed that hemust have thought so deeply about my last post. However, sadly

speaking, it turns out that he didnt understand my arguments as to whyChristianity promotes violence.

Before I proceed, I would like to thank the BARM admin for having thisking of interfaith dialogue in the internet; we are afforded theopportunities to explain and argue our respective religions an

Documents

Islam Vs Christianity - Violence Or Peace Debate