Interview with Jan Rose Kasmir - Avalon Project · Jan Rose Kasmir has been a Peace activist for over 40 years. She became known throughout the world by the ... On 2nd May, 2010,

Interview with Jan Rose Kasmir

by James Kilgarriff

Iniciativa para una Cultura de Paz

Proyecto Ávalon – Iniciativa para una Cultura de Paz

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Introduction

Jan Rose Kasmir has been a Peace activist for over 40 years. She became known throughout the world by the powerful photos taken of her by the photographer Marc Riboud, who photographed her standing in front of soldiers pointing rifles directly at her in front of the Pentagon in 1967 while she bravely held up a flower as a sign of Peace. It was a Peace march of over 100,000 people opposing the war against Vietnam.

On 2nd May, 2010, Jan kindly offered to take part in an interview with the Avalon Project Peace NGO based in Spain and to share her experiences from that eventful day at the Pentagon in1967 as well as other Peace ventures that she has been involved with for over 40 years.

Jan shares her wisdom on how we can take the lessons of the conflicts in the days of the war against Vietnam and how we can be put this to good use in today’s challenges we all face.

Some of the text has been adjusted slightly from the audio to make the interview more readable in text format.

If you have any questions with respect to this interview or want to find out more about the initiatives of the Avalon Project, please visit our web site at www.avalonproject.org, or email us at [email protected]

INTERVIEW WITH JAN ROSE KASMIR

James: Today we are delighted to be interviewing Jan Rose Kasmir. Jan has been an Icon for Peace and non violence for over 40 years. Her story began when she stood in front on a line of soldiers in front of the Pentagon in October of 1967 holding simply a flower. There were photos taken of Jan which were sent around the world and this influenced millions of people at a deep level. Welcome, Jan, to today’s call. I am so glad you are on.

Jan: Thank you, it is a real pleasure and a privilege.

James: Before we go on, let me introduce myself. My name is James Kilgarriff and I represent the Avalon Peace Project NGO based in Spain and our web site is http://www.avalonproject.org/

Currently the web site is in Spanish and we are planning to have an English version. We are involved with a number of Peace Initiatives such as the United Nations Earth Charter which is based on principles for a sustainable future and we are involved with various other initiatives.

The intention of the call is to find out more about you, Jan, and your fascinating story since that event in 1967 and how the listener can draw from the wisdom that you can offer us today and perhaps make a more Intentional commitment to Peace in each of our lives and that will affect each person’s immediate environment.

Before we start, Jan, I would like to share with you and the people listening to this recording, a quote from Jimi Hendrix who was a famous Rock star in the 1960´s: “When the power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, the world will know Peace”

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This leads us nicely into what you have been doing all these years. Jan, perhaps you can take us back to that time in October of 1967. We are at the Pentagon in Washington and there are 100,000 people marching towards the Pentagon. What was that all about?

Jan: Well, I think that something that would be very helpful to understand is that back in those days we did not have the Internet and so for someone like me there was a sense of isolation.

I really didn’t know that my thoughts and feelings were shared by a world community. I felt that I would always be like a kind of a fringe person. I was a hippy. I was counter culture and I had no idea that people who were what I thought to be ―establishment‖ which meant looking like regular 9 to 5 people who did not let their freak flag fly or have long hair. Our symbols were long hair, sunglasses and love beads If you did not look like that, I did not think that those people shared any part of the Peace ideology.

When I arrived on that day, I had taken a bus downtown and I was totally shocked and overwhelmed by the normality that I saw among the people. It was not just hippies and freaks, it was the overwhelming majority were priests and nuns and mothers with strollers and babies. It was just amazing. It was middle America showing up because like me they all felt this same terrible sense of frustration over the pursuit of the war in Vietnam.

It was a civil war in which we had no business becoming involved and we knew that, at least, I can speak for myself and a lot of people realised there was a lot of dirty politics going on then and that things needed to be halted. Status Quo was not acceptable.

James: 100,000 people showed up on that day. Was this something that was common in the 1960´s or was it one of the first types of en mass protests on what was happening in Vietnam?

Jan: Well, this was, if I am not mistaken, this was the first large Peace demonstration. Washington has been a place for demonstrations ever since there was a Washington. This is where people have come to vent their frustration at the Government since there was a Government. I was looking over the history of demonstrations. There have been civil rights demonstrations, when the Veterans did not get their pay after World War 2, they showed up en mass. There have been a number of demonstrations but as far as the war against Vietnam this was absolutely, to my knowledge, the largest demonstration.

After that there were other demonstrations, of course, there was the demonstration of Kent State where students lost their lives. There was May Day which was part of a protest against as what we saw as Fascism in the Government. There was a student strike on our Campus that later lead to other protests and such. I would say that the war against Vietnam, that was the largest demonstration.

James: I have, in front of me, one of the famous photos of you where you are standing there with a flower holding up in a compassionate way looking into the soldier’s face and the question is you are standing in front of the soldiers and they are pointing their bayonets at you and other people. What was going on in your mind and what do you think was going on in the mind of the soldiers or soldier who you were looking at in that moment?



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Jan: Well, I have had the advantage over time of getting some insight from Marc Riboud, who was the photographer, and he said that as he watched those young boys that they were actually shaking because they were afraid of what might happen.

This was before Kent State, this was before any students had ever died in the course of a demonstration and so people were frightened on both sides.

James: Yes, I read a quote from him (Marc) ―the soldier was more afraid of you than you were afraid of him‖. I am loosely quoting Marc´s comments from a Blog post.

Jan: That is just the insanity of youth. We think we are encased in some kind of magic bubble that will keep us completely safe as long as I felt what I was doing was right, I felt that no harm could come to me. It wasn’t so much as fearlessness as mindlessness. I just did not really think about it other than I was there to try to stand up for what I believed in, so passionately. I really thought in those days I could save the world and this was my statement. There are other pictures of me - there is me as Jesus Christ if you have seen some of the other photos that Marc did.



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James: Your arms are stretched out like the crucifix sign and standing. That is a very powerful photo.

Jan: Right, I felt like I was being crucified. At the moment Marc captured that photo - Marc is a Peace Pilgrim as well, he was in the French resistance, he has quite a remarkable history for peace. He knew how to capture because at that very moment all of the separation between me and those guys, those boys in military uniform, completely melted away. At that moment they became completely humanised to me.

Prior to that moment they were part of the rhetoric, they were war machine, they were part of the great divide, they were on the other side, they were the enemy, they were the killers, killing babies in Vietnam and all of a sudden the truth of the situation was that we really were all One and later I have been able to better think about this and better understand that at some level I realised that they were just as much victims of this whole thing as anybody else.

They were the puppets of the power, the puppets of war and I think a month later they were supposed to be shipped off. I have never really taken the time to look into it but I heard that a month later they were deployed to Vietnam. It’s heartbreaking.



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James: And why do you think your photos captured the hearts of so many people around the world? That photo of you holding the flower and you standing with your arms wide open - they were very powerful

symbols. Perhaps you can share with us why people really got so connected to those photos?

Jan: I think that people resonate with them for a few reasons. America really is rightfully portrayed as the world bully and it is sadly true that unfortunately a lot of what runs the decisions to wage war are corporations. One of the things I want to try to express in this interview today is there are two major pieces to the question of Peace.

One is the grass roots on your own level – being able to touch people positively in your life. The other is the recognition of what is driving the bus. Why is it that America is such a bully? Why is it that we have these corporations that are pushing these decisions to wage war?

I think that why do people resonate - I think one the one hand, many people around the world see us as the war monger and see us as the world bully and totally understandable why we would be labelled such and I think it is like a David and Goliath. This one young girl standing up to the military might of the world’s biggest superpower and I think there are a lot of people that feel crushed by America and imperialism and call it a lot of different names. So I think there is that level with resonance.

I think that for other people, if I am not mistaken, I have heard that ―Guns and Roses‖ rock group took their name from this picture. That this yin yang of Guns and Roses, the idea that the meek shall inherit the earth. That you can stand up to big bullies. I think it is a powerful message of hope for people who feel oppressed and feel like they are under the thumb.

In talking with people I think that I gave a voice and a body and an image to the idea of standing up for Peace and up against seemingly horrible odds. There I am standing up against a tidal wave and I have nothing to defend myself but my ideology and a flower to symbolise the ideology and yet I was able to walk away from that living and still firm in my convictions.



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James: We are living in the 21st century now and there are a lot of people working on themselves. Spiritual

growth is much more popular these days than it was 40 or 50 years ago. We have Buddhism, Zen and

various other traditions that people are working with. For me I see it as a big step for someone to do what

you did. I know there was a guy who planted one of his flowers in one of the soldier’s rifles

Jan: Right, he went by the name of Chameleon and he later became very big in the fashion industry and revolutionised the New York fashion industry. He was a glitter drag queen, in which no way denigrates his Peace efforts. Unfortunately he died over 12 years ago from aids. I contacted his brother because I was so moved by what he had done and what he was doing and he made his mark in the fashion industry.

James: Let’s go back to the time of the 1960´s. What do you think people learned from the war with Vietnam? I want to quote, very quickly, Robert MacNamara, who was the Defense Secretary at the time. He died last year as you know. He said this – this is the guy who was spearheading the war against Vietnam…

―We were wrong. I think we owe it to future generations to try and draw the lessons so we don’t make the same mistakes again‖. So the question to you, is what can we learn from the experiences of those days?

Jan: If that was only true. When I heard that, the war in Iraq was impending. The reason I went to London to protest was because there it was, Vietnam all over again.



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Unfortunately I don’t think we have learned enough. We are still letting big business run the show. The fact is that we have these corporations that would just utterly go bankrupt if there weren’t wars. They are all geared up. They are not geared up to do ―Green‖, they are geared up to make war.

If they did not have those wars to make planes and bombs etc, etc they would not exist, they would go bankrupt so they keep those fires burning. Afghanistan and there is going to be another front and another front.

In fact Obama who has become a huge disappointment to me, when he was saying that they were thinking about whether or not to escalate the war in Afghanistan, In south Carolina there was a $10 million manufacturing company who make pre fabricated foods for the military. They were gearing up for Afghanistan.

The talk to the public was ―we are thinking about this, we don’t know if we are going to escalate Afghanistan or not‖. Of course they were escalating in Afghanistan. It’s in the interest of big business and that is one level where people are going to get very proactive about these companies that are steering the ship and it is a shame but they run our politics. Absolutely.

James: So really it is not the Governments who are the motivating the force it is more as you say the big companies because where there is war there is money?

Jan: Absolutely, absolutely. Our founding Fathers of America – I was listening to this on the Bill Moyers Show – the founding fathers were terrified of the idea of big business taking over. They wanted the country to be run by a Government for the people by the people and not for the corporations and by the corporations.

Madison and Jefferson (two of the founding fathers) saw the problem of big business. They saw the pitfalls of big business taking over and so even our founding fathers were wary and worried. The lobbyists have finely tuned what goes on legislatively to de regulate and just let big business run wild even to the point where now big business can contribute to political coffers, the way any citizen can and so they have given over the power of every citizen, the same power to big business. It is horrible

James: What can we do about this situation? I know I cannot control how the stock markets move as that is beyond my control. What can I do as one person and to the people listening do individually even though the big businesses are wanting more money?

Jan: I think that the first and important thing is to be a good person and positively affect the people around you. If people are going around angry, they will not be able to respond to various situations thoughtfully.

Any way we can do to create a positive environment around us whether it is driving courteously, whether it is being courteous to sales people or any person we come into contact with. It is extremely important for us to be positive and caring. Eldridge Cleaver said that ―If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem‖.

James: I agree with you on that and it is also having a belief that things can change. I remember when you said in the past something about the change of the slave business in the United States.



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Jan: There was a time when the idea of abolishing slavery was unthinkable. It took abolitionists so much bravery such as John Brown and Abraham Lincoln. This was only an idea that was thought to be impossible and the woman’s right to vote.

There are all kinds of revolutionary ideas that at one time were completely unthinkable but people became invested in them. They believed in them and they supported them. Right now we are up against so many threats not only through Peace but the poisoning of our environment. There are a lot of things that take consciousness and the more that we can be awake and aware and respond to things that are within our power. It is one thing to feel that you are small and insignificant. Trust me; you can make a difference in any parson’s life just by paying attention to them, just by being a caring person.

You don’t have to make a huge investment of time and energy. If you feel so motivated then invest yourself, then commit yourself to causes that you feel are important . I believe that seeds are planted in our heart that will grow if we just give them time and that the right person – there is a saying ―when the student is ready the teacher appears‖.

At the time when you are needed for something and your heart is open and full and your eyes are open you can join forces and be part of something important whether it is for Peace, whether it is environmental, whether it is fighting corporate greed – whatever it is. It is a matter of consciousness and a commitment to that consciousness. A commitment to being part of the solution.

James: Some people get confused about Peace. You just mentioned, it is not so much about Peace but more about raising your consciousness about the planet, about the oceans, about the forests, about what big businesses are doing. I think that people have to come from a place of love and be strong and be able to take the action like what you did.

You took action and raised that flower up in front of those soldiers and perhaps one day people will be called on to raise their own flower in the name of raising the consciousness of the planet. Maybe raising that flower is about living life in a more simple, peaceful and positive way.

Jan: James, there is something else really important that I want to speak about. People have got to start being conscientious about the messages they hear and where these messages come from.

Right now we have the Tea Party Movement which is basically corporate bought and paid for. They are masquerading as some kind of populist movement, a ground roots movement that says ―we are so sick of big business‖. They are bought and paid for by corporations and they are sponsored by corporations and they are really trying to prey on anger, hate and confusion. People have to be responsible about where they are getting their messages from. What is behind the message? I don’t have any corporate sponsor; I am not getting paid to do what I do in my life other than my work in the normal course of business.

When I go on various Peace ventures, I do it because I care. There are a lot of wolves in sheep’s clothing and people have got to be conscientious, like the news media, Fox News etc. A lot of stuff is unfortunately misrepresented, slanted and people want to throw around words like ―Liberalism‖ —it is just horrible the way that good ideas get distorted through the media.

If people just try to be conscientious about when they get a message, check out where that message is coming from. It is just like advertising that tries to sells you something that you don’t need. There are a lot of messages out there that are really trying to throw people off balance and stir people off. It is a shame. People have to be conscientious about where they get their information from.



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James: Some of the large corporations have green policies. Some of the oil companies, in fact you have that big oil spill with the BP company on the coast of Alabama. They have a green policy about caring for the environment. How far do you think companies like BP are committed to this?

Jan: It’s foolishness. It’s like there you are, bleeding to death, and they offer you a band aid. A lot of people are paid a lot of money for public relations and for looking good.

We are on the verge of one of the biggest oil spills in the history of the planet and we have other groups right now who are calling for more drilling offshore. It is insane. On this planet we are going to be around to worry about Peace if we all poison ourselves.

We have got to get our priorities straight and caring for Mother Earth is absolutely important. We can do this in little ways, we have to try an maintain consciousness.

James: Do you believe the American Administration is going to help resolve the world conflicts act as a catalyst for peace and cooperation or if not, who?

Jan: It’s a really tough question. I am totally disillusioned with Obama. I think that unfortunately that things do not look very good right now. There is a guy, Hightower, who is a populist and I think he prints something called ―The Low Down‖. He sounds like a source of information that can be trusted that can help guide people in trying to decipher and wade through all of this whole myriad of information that comes at you because I think right now that Obama – he is obviously a very intelligent man – the attacks against him by the Right are ridiculous. They try to attack him as non American, they try to attack him as Muslim.

It is just ridiculous but the sad fact is I think our entire Congress is corrupt. What I have come to think is that here we have people voting on issues that don’t even affect them. They have got their insurance, they have their economic base that is solid. They have got their life pretty well sealed up and yet these are the people we rely and devote on issues that really don’t affect their lives. It is very treacherous and I think that the only way to face this is to try to band together with like minded people and set on courses of action that you feel are within your realm of doability.

Some of the things I do in my daily life, I volunteer, I am a medically trained massage therapist, I do a lot of volunteer work through my skills. I try to make myself available to a lot of people when they are in pain, when they fell lost, they may feel abandoned. I try to write articles in the newspaper to help form groups. This is what I feel I can handle. I am a single parent and I run a business and so my hands are tied as far as how much time I can devote to things. I am going to be one of those little old ladies in a wheel chair chaining myself to a Nuclear Power Plant when I am in my eighties but for now, I do as much as I can.

James: Well, you are doing phenomenal work which has been consistent or may years so thank you for that, Jan. In your opinion, and I think you have already mentioned many of the concerns, what problems does the world face and what solutions and actions can we take to help to contribute towards a better world?




London 2003: Jan Rose Kasmir in the great demonstration against the War of Iraq.

Jan: Well, I think on the level of Peace, try to be a good person, come together with like minded people, and try to politically get more involved or spread the truth then go for it.

I think environmentally, don’t poison your lawns with chemicals, and don’t poison your water supply with chemicals. Try to live as clean a life as possible and do what you can to affect your community. Clean policies because Mother Earth is only going to stand so much and she is either going to throw up of drop dead. I worry about our toxicity and I think that as much as possible know that you count. Even though you are one person, you count. You can make a difference in other people’s lives.

When I was 17 years old I thought I was invisible. I honestly thought that I did not count at all and over the years I have learned that I do count and make myself count in more positive ways.

James: Thank you for that. Very good. Most people think ―Who am I to help make a better world?‖ It is an ingrained belief that we are powerless. In fact we are more powerful than we think we are.

Jan: Absolutely. If you can believe it, you can achieve it. You have to believe in the power of thought and prayer and believe in the idea that there is a Universal power for good. You just have to hook yourself up to that star and follow your heart and follow your dreams.




James: In your opinion, how much time do you think we have as a global people to make the changes? How much time do you think the earth is going to give us?

Jan: The only time we have is Now. Right now is the only time we have and it is the only time we have to act so the idea of trying to project into the future and so on, what we need to is just know that right now is eternity. In fact, Janice Joplin said that ―the only eternity we have is now‖. If we recognise that right now is what counts and right now is all that exists then we can do our best for right now.

James: Absolutely. Your power is in the present moment and so if you keep asking yourself ―what can I do right now‖ is where the power is. It is not ―What can I do next week or next year when I have finished college or left my job. It is ―what can I do right now‖ is where the powerful question and the powerful answers are

Jan: Right, next year does not exist.

James: You have shared some great insights. Is there any technique or method that people can work with in terms of helping themselves?

Jan: Absolutely. I think that the one most powerful thing that you can do is pay attention to yourself.

Most people spend a lot of time trying to distract themselves either through entertainment, with music, videos playing, etc. People spend a lot of time distracting themselves from themselves and I think that self awareness and self consciousness is extremely important. I think it is where it all begins and I think that practising calmness, paying attention to your health. Doing simple things each day to keep you healthy. Hydrating, doing good breathing. I think very simple things are the key to optimal living and I think do the best you can each day. Bless and let go of it and tomorrow is another day. All you can do is the best you can do.

Never waste any energy on beating yourself up. It weakens you and it is a complete waste of time. Just try to empower and try to believe in yourself. We are just human beings together on this space ship Earth and a consciousness also of the people around you do count and that a little bit of kindness goes a long way.

James: That is really good. Jan, thank you so much for that. Is there anything you want to add before I close of this interesting interview with you?

Jan: Mostly, I want to thank you, James, for caring so much. It is you and the other people who carry the torch now. It so important for people to be organised and to be dedicated to this issue otherwise we are going to be caught asleep at the wheel.

One of the things about my teen years is that there was a lot of personal unhappiness for me and I really had to survive a lot of self destructiveness and I have been fortunate that I have learned so much from it and any way I can serve with it I am happy to, but it takes people like you who have a higher consciousness for organisation and for using the internet that really help take what has gone on before you and to do something positive with it.




That image of me could have easily got lost in time. While people still care about it then that is what keeps it alive and resonating.

James: Thank you Jan, I appreciate that. By the way, what is your web site? You run a business in South Carolina.

Jan: The web site address is www.hiltonmassage.com and it shows my massage work and I am starting to post more of my articles. I have one or two articles on chronic pain. I am involved in trying to help educate people and raise their awareness. I have fortunately taken on someone who is a much better web person than I am and he is going to help me getting things more organised and getting more of my articles on the web site.

James: It is just in case that someone in the South Carolina area wants a massage and you are there to help them. It is nice to share that.

Whoever is listening to the call, we will translate this interview into Spanish and it will be available as a booklet or PDF.

We are also going to offer other free bonus information for people who come to www.avalonproject.org web site. We have written a booklet 7 Habits of Peace which is methods and techniques similar to what you have shared here, Jan, on how people can improve their lives and have a positive domino effect on the lives of others.

Also in September 2010, there will be a Day of Peace. It is a United Nations Initiative and we plan to have a big showing of people in Seville in Southern Spain in September and we plan to bring you over, Jan, and to recognise and acknowledge you for all the great work you have been doing for over 40 years. That is something for the listener to think about and if they want to take this forward and be more involved with what we are doing at the Avalon Project Peace Initiatives.

Thank you very much, Jan, and I am sure we will have more discussions around this theme. It has been good to hear and share your wisdom. Thank you.

Jan: Well, thank you and I am cosmically hugging you, James… Peace out!

Final note:

The Avalon Project will celebrate the International Day of Peace on Saturday 25th of September 2010 in Seville (Spain). Please visit our web site for information:

If you are interested in the work of Marc Riboud, the photographer behind Jan´s photographs then please visit his web site at: www.marcriboud.com

If you have any questions or want to get involved with Avalon Project peace initiatives then visit our web site www.avalonproject.org or email us at: [email protected]

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Interview with Jan Rose Kasmir - Avalon Project · Jan Rose Kasmir has been a Peace activist for over 40 years. She became known throughout the world by the ... On 2nd May, 2010,