Interview Transcript 2015...as a crisis from Brent Southin and Glen Brown and Tim McCaskell. GK: Okay. We’ll get back into that. SK: But, in terms of when I actually heard about

InterviewTranscript2015.009

Interviewee: SusanKasurak

Interviewers: GaryKinsman&JannaKlostermann

Place: Toronto,Ontario

Date: August6,2015

AAHPAIDSActivistHistoryProject

SusanKasurakInterview–28pagesAIDSActivistHistoryProject

1

16November2015Personspresent: SusanKasurak–SK GaryKinsman–GK JannaKlostermann–JK[STARTOFTRANSCRIPT]GK:WestartallofourinterviewswiththesamequestionjusttoestablishabitofabaselineintermsofwhenpeoplestartedtobeawareofAIDSandwhattheyknew.So,doyouhaveanymemoryofwhenyouwouldhavefirstheardaboutAIDS?SK:No.Notreally.GK:Itdoesn’thavetobetheexactdate,butthecontext…SK: It would have been sometime in the eighties, and I’m not sure, you know, I wouldimagineitwasthelatereighties.IwasastudentattheUniversityofWesternOntarioforacoupleofyearsbeforetransferringtoYork,andthat’swhenIarrivedinToronto,andgotinvolvedwithescortingattheMorgentalerClinic,andthat’swhenIdefinitelyheardaboutitasacrisisfromBrentSouthinandGlenBrownandTimMcCaskell.GK:Okay.We’llgetbackintothat.SK:But,intermsofwhenIactuallyheardaboutHIVorAIDS,I’mnotsure.GK:Yes,andthat’sfine.Doyourememberanythingthatyoumighthaveheard?Likefirstthingsyoumighthaveheardaboutit,beforeyoumetBrent?SK:Iwouldhaveseenmainstreammediareports.Imighthave,ifIwasgoingintoadoctor,I might have come across something, but I didn’t have any contact with certainly theactivism around it or anything in the classes that Iwas taking atWestern. I was takingwomen’sstudiesclassesatWesternatthattime.GK:BeforeyouwouldhavemetBrentandGlenandall thosepeople,didyouhaveanysenseoftherebeingasocialmovementaroundAIDS?Like,AIDSactivism?Thatpeoplewereactuallydealingwithitasapoliticalissue,andnotjustamedicalone?SK:Imighthave,becauseIwasbecomingactiveinLondon,soIwasinvolvedinwhatwascalled the London Women’s Anti-Apartheid Coalition, and then I went to a number ofprotestsof theLondonUnemployedWorkersCoalition, Iguess,anda fewPostalWorkerStrikes. So, I was active in the activist community, but London was a pretty smallcommunity,soImighthaveheardaboutasocialmovement,butIdon’thaveanymemoryofit.


2

GK:Right.So,youwereinvolvedinactivismtheninLondon,largelyaroundfeministorganizingor?SK:Solidarity…GK:Solidarity.SK:…workaroundElSalvador,Nicaragua,andSouthAfricaatthattime.IhadgrownupinWindsor…MyMotherwasacollegeteacherandshewasonstrikeacoupleoftimesandthenImovedasaeighteenyearoldtoLondonandimmediately,asaresultofmyupstairsneighbours,gotinvolvedinanti-apartheidworkandsolidarityworkaroundNicaraguaandEL Salvador. And then got interested in women’s studies, and through that feministactivism.GK:Okay.Andthenatsomepointyoumovedto…SK:MovedtoToronto,andthenwastakingwomen’sstudiesatYorkfromMegLuxtonandmovedasastudenttoYorkactually,becauseofMegLuxton.Itransferredschools,becauseIwasactuallytryingtochoosebetweenConcordiaandYork…IhadreadMegLuxton’sbook,IthinkitwascalledMorethanaLabourofLove,andafewothersthatIcan’trememberoffthe top ofmy head, and so wanted to study at York because of them. And then almostimmediately found out about Toronto Socialist Feminist Action, and OCAC (the OntarioCoalitionforAbortionClinics).GK: So, do you want to tell us a bit more about those groups, and how you gotinvolvedinthem?SK:ThatpartIcan’tremember.Ican’trememberhowIfoundoutaboutToronto–TSFA–Toronto Socialist Feminist Action or OCAC. I just know that I started escorting at theMorgentalerclinic,sotheyhadthatsetupandthat’swhereIranintotheotherfolks,andIstartedgoingtothemeetingswithTorontoSocialistFeministAction.GK:So,thatwouldhavebeen…SK:I’dimagineIwouldhaveheardaboutitatYorkthroughwomen’sstudiespossibly.GK: Oh, there was lots of connections there. So, you get involved in the OntarioCoalition for Abortion Clinics and Toronto Socialist Feminist Action. Myunderstanding of Toronto Socialist Feminist Actionwas it grows out of the initialgroupthatsetuptheInternationalWomen’sDayCommittee.SK:Ithinkso.GK:InToronto,whichIthinkstartsin‘78,soitevolvesintotheeighties.


3

SK:Yes.GK:So,Iguess…SK:IattendedthosemeetingsinlateeightiesIguess.Iwasreallyyoung,andreally,reallyimpressed,andinaweofeveryoneImet,andjustsortofquietlysatbackandtriedtolearnand absorb as much as I could. You know, basically attended meetings and got reallyinterestedinbeingactive…BecausethatwassomethingthatwetalkedalotaboutinthosecoursesupatYorkwasitwasn’tenoughjusttodotheoreticalwork;wehadtoengageinsomesortofaction,andsobecameinterestedinthat.GK: So, you got involved throughOCACwith some of the clinic escort stuff for theMorgentalerclinicwouldhavebeenonHarbordthen.SK:OnHarbordandthentheScottcliniconGerard,andthatwasintense.Anditwasreally,really,reallyexciting,andintense.JK:Whatdoyoumeantobeanescort?SK:Wewouldmeet women at, I think theywere called safe houses, and bring them inthroughtheback,sotheydidn’tgetharassedbyanti-choiceprotestors.Andthiswasatatimewhenthe lawwasbeingchallengedaroundabortion,andso therewereallkindsofprotestsaroundthataswellthatwerequiteintense.Therewasabigpushbackfromthepoliceaswell.GK: Right. I was involved a bit justwith theMorgentaler clinic on Harbord. Oftenanti-choicepeoplewouldtrytoblockadethefrontentrance,soitwasimportanttotrytogetwomenintheresafely.Iwasalsotherethatdaythat…ItwasactuallyJudyRebick, who stopped the guy with the garden sheers, who was trying to attackMorgentaler.SK:Oh,yeah?GK:Ican’trememberwhatyearthatwas,butthosewerequiteintensesituations.JK:Wow.SK:Yes,wewouldtrytobringaroundthebackway,sotheydidn’thavetosufferthroughtheabuse.Theyhadlittleplasticfetusesandpictures.Theywouldevengototheextentoftakingpicturesofclinicsupportersandwritingaboutthemandpostingtheirpicturesandsayingterriblethingsabouttheminanewsletter.GK:Itwasprettyawful.So,whenyouweredoingthisclinicdefenseworkfor–andthatwasorganizedthroughOCAC,right?


4

SK:Yes.GK:WereyouinvolvedinOCACinamoregeneralway?SK: I think I attendedmeetings, but I was not… In any of these groups Iwas not a keyorganizer, so I just was absolutely excited, and engaged with what was happening andwanted to be part of it in some way. I wanted to contribute in any way possible, andcertainly,youknow,wenttoeventsthatOCACwasputtingon,andprobablyanumberofmeetingsattheChurchatBloornearSpadinaofbothTSFAandOCAC.GK: Right. So, you’re doing the clinic defense and youmeet these guys from AIDSACTIONNOW!SK: I did! [laughter] Imet BobGardner and LindaGardner andTimMcCaskell andGlenBrownandBrentSouthin.AndfromthemomentImetthosefolks,wasincompleteaweofthem. Like, such outstanding organizing abilities. It justmade everything else seem lessinteresting,andwanted to follow themnomatterwhat theyweredoing,andstillwould,you know? So, I can’t remember themechanism; probably one of them toldme about ameetingoranevent,andfromthatpointonIwasinvolved.GK:But it’sbecauseyouactuallymet themdoing the clinicdefensework that thatconnectionwasmade.SK:That’sright.GK:It’simportanttonotethatpeoplefromAIDSACTIONNOW!werealsoconnectedwiththatclinicdefensework.SK:Exactly.GK: I know Brent Southin was. I know that Linda and Bob were very involved inOCAC.SK: Very involved. I’mpretty sure I sawGlen andTim there aswell. Itmight have beensomethingliketheywerehandingoutaflyerforsomethingthatwascomingupormaybetheyspokeatoneoftheprotests,butIbecameawareofAIDSACTIONNOW!asaresult.GK:So,onceyouhearaboutitandyouwanttofollowthesepeople,whathappens?SK:Iwouldhavegonetothemeetings,andoneofyourquestionswasaboutthesteeringcommittee and I don’t remember themechanism around this again, sowhether Iwouldhave ever attended any of the steering committeemeetings… I know I went to a lot ofmeetings at the 519, and I don’t remember what sort of meetings. I know I went to amonthlymeetinganditwasonaTuesday,butIdon’trememberiftheywereeversteering


5

committeemeetings. I think the steering committeemetaheadof timeand thenwent tothismonthlymeeting.GK:Yes,Ithinkthatwasthegeneralmembersmeeting.Probably.SK:That’sright.Andthengotinvolvedprettyquickly.Theyhadasub-committeethatwasorganizingthevariousactivists,thevariousprotests,andallofthethinkingbehindhowwewouldexecutetheactivism,thepropagandaandtheotherpiecesthatwouldgoalongwiththat.GK:ThatwascalledatthatpointintimetheActivistBrigade?SK:Ithinkwegaveitthatnamelater.GK:Okay.SK:Youwouldprobablyrecallthismore.GK:Well itwasoriginallythePublicActionCommittee,but I thinkthatsortofdiesdownatsomepoint.IwasaninitialfacilitatorofthePublicActionCommittee.SK:Okay.GK: But I could, you know, Brent Southinwas involved in that. Greg Pavelichwasinvolvedinthat,awholebunchofthosetypesofpeoplewouldhavebeeninvolvedinthat group,but I think lateron it doesn’t continue to exist and I think theActivistBrigademusthavebeenanotherattempttotryandorganizetheactivistwork.SK:Yes,andwemighthavegivenitthatnamelater,becauseIthinkweweremeetinginanadhocwayasneedbeasthingscameup.AndIfeltreallycomfortableinthat,becauseIfeltlikeIcoulddosomething.Ifeltlikethisissomething,somewaythatIcancontribute,anditwas sort of a group of people my age as well at that time. A lot of the thinking workwould’ve been done by the Steering Committee, and the decisionsmade at that generalmeeting, I believe, and then we would carry out the action. So, it was organized verydifferently than what I was seeing at the March 8th Coalition or in some of the otherwomen’s organizations, where a lot of the decision making was happening in this veryconsensusstylefashion.GK:So,yoursensewashowdecisionsweremadeinAIDSACTIONNOW!atthatpointintimewouldhavebeen,theycamedownfromthesteeringcommittee?SK:[hesitant]Yes.[laughter]GK:I’mjusttryingtogetasenseofthat.


6

SK:Yes.And,youknowwhat?Atthetime,becauseIwasinwomen’sstudies,Iwassortofthinking through this. Like, what does this decision making model say about theorganization?Whatdoesitmean?AndIrememberthinking,“Well, therearesomeissuesaroundperhapsthedecisionmaking,butareweevergettingalotdone!We’regettinganimmenseamountdonethatI’mnotseeinghappeninginotherplaces.”So,itwasthatdebatethat I think happens in a lot of organizations, but itwas very different thanwhat Iwasseeing.You’veprobablytalkedtootherpeoplewho’veindicatedatthattimetheMarch8thCoalition,therewerealotofchallengesintheotherorganizationsinthecityatthattime.IthinkAIDSACTIONNOW!reallystuckoutforhavingreallysuccessfulactionsandwinningalotinashortperiodoftime,andIthinkdoingactionsreallysuccessfully.Andtherewasthisphilosophythat,youknow,wewant—wedon’twanttoholdpeoplehere(atactions)foralongtime.Wewanttohave,youknow,areallyvisuallyexciting,quick,pointedaction,andIthinkitwasreallysuccessfulindoingthat.JK:Whatyoudoyoumeanbyvisuallyexciting?SK:Thevisualswerealwaysreallyimportant,andthepicturesthatIdugup.Idon’thave…Again,Ihavethisboxofthings,butyoucanseefromthedie-insthatwedid.Lateron,thepostersandtheplacardswerealwaysreallyimportant.Therewasafocusonnothavingalotof text, andhavinga really strongmessageorvisual togowith it.Nothavinga lotofspeeches.Thisisone–butBrentwasBobRaebehindthemask.IthinkitwasBrentSouthinthere, andwe had this ‘Wheel of Misfortune.’ So, we spent a lot of time trying to thinkthroughthemechanicsofhowtogetthemessageacrossinareallyimmediateway.


7

GK:And thatwouldhavebeenpartof thecampaign for theTrilliumDrugFundingPlan?SK:That’sright.GK:Whichwasquitesuccessfulintheend–although,peoplehadtothreatentoburnBobRaeineffigytoactuallygetit.SK:That’sright.Andthena lotof theother– like, thestickersandthetemporarytattoosandt-shirtsandbuttons.Again,alotofattentionpaidtohowitwouldlookasawayofkindofcatchingattention.GK: Yes.Was John Greyson still around in terms of doing some of the visual stuffthen?SK:Yes.GK:Okay,yeah.Becausehecertainly…SK:ButnotasIremember…IcameinafteryoufolkshaddonetheMontrealevent,andsothatwasbeforeme.Youturnedyourbackson...GK: We did more than that, but yes. That was fun. If the central way you wereinvolvedwas in activistwork, is there anyway you coulddescribehow it evolvedover theyearsasyouwere involved inAIDSACTIONNOW!? It sounds likeyougetinvolvedeitherlate’89orinto1990.SK:Right.GK:Andyoumuststayinvolvedforawhile,so…SK:IjotteddownsomeoftheactivistpiecesthatIremember.So,intheearlydays,Iwouldimagineitwaseither‘89or‘90,therewasMedicalOfficerofHealth,RichardSchabas,whowasthreateningtoquarantinepeople.Andsowedidanactionaroundthat,andthenwedidanumberofMarch8th–InternationalWomen’sDay–contingents,wherewehandedout stickers, and had a presencewith placards, and actuallymarched as a contingent.…And I do have a box of them somewhere. I don’t know if you’ve come across themsomewhere else, but we had these fantastic stickers that said, “Women get AIDS; getactive.” Trying to encouragemore activism and involvement. And thenwe occupied theMinisterofHealth’soffices.GK:WasthatFrancesLankin,then?SK:Ithinkso.Idon’tremember.


8

GK:Andwereyouthere?SK:No.Iactuallywasn’ttherethatday,becauseIwasworkingingovernment.GK:Right.SK:IhadajobattheOntarioWomen’sDirectorate.OurMinistrywascutback.Wewereonstrike for six weeks under Mike Harris, and then my Ministry was pretty well cut tonothing,soIcouldn’tdoanyofthosetypeofevents,butIwaspartoftheplanningforthat.AndthenIthinkthemostexcitingthingthatIwasinvolvedinwasplanningthosemassivedie-ins,andwedidtwoofthem…Itwasincredibly labour-intensive. I’mnotsureifotherpeople have described it to you, but we had all these little plastic baggies – sandwichbaggies–thatwestuffedwithabuttonandasticker,chalksothatwecouldoutline…Atthesoundofahorn,peopleinthemarchweresupposedtoliedownandchalktheoutlineofeach other. I think after probably amoment of lying down, sowe gave them everythingtheyneededinthislittlesandwichbagkit.Itwasanimmenseundertaking.Lotsandlotsofhoursofstuffingtheselittlebaggykits,anditcameoffreallywell.JK:Howmanypeoplewouldyousaywerethere?SK:Ithink—JK:Ahundredor?GK:ThiswasdoneduringthePrideparade.SK:Huge.JK:Okay.Oh,wow.GK:TheywereprobablycalledPridemarchesthen.SK:Itwasamarchatthatpoint.Imean,I’mnotsureifthat’s…That’snotfromPridedaybecausewe’vegotcoatson.


9

GK:Idon’tknowwherethatis.SK:Butwedidasimilarthing.That’sChurchandWellesley.YoucanseeBrentthere,butwewere doing a die-in at that point.We’re talking… Imean, I don’t knowat that timehowmany–tensofthousandsinthePridemarch.JK:Wow.GK:Therewouldhavebeenthousandsofpeopleatleast.Attheveryleast.SK:Yes.So,logisticallyitwastough,right?Becausewe’retryingtofigureouthowdoyougetthatwordoutacrosstheentiremarch,becauseit’ssospreadout,butIthoughtthatwasprettysuccessful.Andwedid that for, I think, twice that I remember.And this ‘WheelofMisfortune’ floatthatwedid,andthatwas,againstBobRae,butI thinkitwasaroundhehadpromisedfundingandacatastrophicdrugplan,andwasbackingdownoverthat.Wedid a lot of oversized things, like, oversized report cards on the status of something oroversized petitions. We did postcard campaigns. We created these large pills, and weorganized protests during elections, and the one that I was arrested at, whichwas KimCampbellactuallygoingintothe519.GK:ItwasKimCampbell,soitwasn’t…


10

SK:ItwasKimCampbellgoingintothe519.AnothereventthatwedidthatIlovewasweputsashes–andIthinkthiswasBobGardner’sidea–weputsashesaroundthestatuesatQueen’sPark–“MissRepresentation,”“MissFunding”–toprotestthelackofacatastrophicdrugtreatmentplan,andsowehadtogettherereallyearlyinthemorningandputthesesasheson,andthatwasneat.AndthenwewentintoQueen’sParkwithabannertoprotestduringthequestionperiod.So,IwasinvolvedinthosepiecesthatIremember.GK:Thoseallsoundquiteexciting.SK:Itwas.GK:Canyoutellushowyoufeltdoingthesethings,becauseitcertainlysoundstomejustrememberingthesethingsnowthattheyseemsoexcitingandempowering.SK:ItwasreallyexcitingandIhavenotexperiencedactivismlikeitreallysince.…Ihaven’tbeen involved in organizing anything like that since. I’ve attended the OCAP [OntarioCoalition Against Poverty] demonstrations, you know, against Queen’s Park and Quebecandallofthosethings.I’veattendedandtheywereprettyexcitinganditfeltlikesomethingwasgoingtochange,butmyinvolvementinAIDSACTIONNOW!atthattimewasexcitingbecause I was involved in the organizing and it felt like we were actually going to winthings.Ihaven’tfeltthatsince.GK:AndAIDSACTIONNOW!didwinthings.SK:IreallyfeltthataboutAIDSACTIONNOW!atthattime,soitwasreally,reallyexciting.AndIfeltlikeIwaslearningalot,asIsaidearlier,doingwhateverIcoulddo.GK: Well you’re right even in terms of doing the events you’ve described. AIDSACTION NOW! was eventually successful in getting the Trillium Drug FundingProgramputinplace.EventhoughSchabaswasn’tgottenridof, theplantochangethe definition of AIDS and HIV into a virulent disease, which would have led toquarantine possibilities, that never went through. … And, obviously, in terms ofaccess to treatments,AIDSACTIONNOW!did remarkable things. So, I thinkyou’requiterightthatthetypeofpoliticswaseffective.Now,wouldyouhaveanysensethatAIDSACTIONNOW!hadadirectaction focusonpolitics?That itwasn’twaiting fortheofficialstorespondtoaletter,butthatpeoplewereactuallywillingtoputtheirbodiesontheline?SK:Ihadthatsense,andthat’swhyIwaskeentobeinvolved.Itwasnotlobbying.Itwasnotjustadvocacy.Itwasdirectaction,andsoitwasreally,reallytakenwiththatfocusofAIDSACTIONNOW!Itwasreallyappealing.GK:Great. So, I’mgoing to comeback to someof the things you’ve talkedabout, ifthat’sokay,butweretheremorethingsyouwantedtobringin…?


11

SK:No,thosearekindoftheonesthatIcouldremember.AndIthinkintermsofwomenand AIDS what I remember was the IWD [International Women’s Day] events and thematerialsforthat.GK:Doyouremembertherebeingawomen’scaucusofAIDSACTIONNOW!?SK:Notspecifically.GK: Do you remember anything else that AIDS ACTION NOW! might have donearoundthespecificneedsofwomeninrelationshiptoAIDSandHIV?SK:IrememberDarienTaylordoingquiteabit,butIdon’trememberaspecificcommittee.Idon’trememberanythingoutsideofthat.GK: Right. For theWorld AIDS Day in 1990, there would have been this die-in atChurch and Wellesley that was organized around women’s concerns, which mayactuallybe…SK:Whenyouaskedmethat,Iwasthinkingthiswasit.


12

GK:Anditmaybe.SK:AndIthinkactually,IhadmymotherherefromWindsorandIthinkIbroughthertothis,butIdon’tremember.GK:Didsheparticipateinthedie-in?SK:Shedid! [laughter]So, shewent toadie-inwithme, and I tend to think it’s thisone,becausewedidn’tdomanyoutsideofPridedaythatIremember,andjustthat’swhenIgotthispicture.Itsortofmademethinkthatitwasperhapsthatone.GK:Anddoyouhaveanymemoriesofwhatthediscussionmighthavebeenleadinguptothat?WhydidAIDSACTIONNOW!decideWorldAIDSDay1990we’regoingtofocusonwomenandAIDS?SK:No,butthat’snottheyear.Sorry…Iwasjuststretchingtowonderifthatwastheyearthat there was a… No. I was thinking maybe, was that the year that there was aninternational focus from IWD (InternationalWomen’sDay) itself onHIV andAIDS, but Idon’tthinkso.GK:That’sactuallysomethinginteresting,becausenooneelsehastalkedaboutthat.Canyoutellusalittlebitaboutthat?Therewasoneyearwheretherewasafocus.SK:Therewas,butIdon’tremember.AndIthinkthattherewasanotheryearthatIWD…Therewaslike,ayearofwomenandAIDSoutsideofanythingfromIWD,butagain,Idon’tremember.But,thatmighthaveledtoushavingthatasthefocusoritmighthavejustbeenshared. Like, a number of people were involved in both IWD and AIDS ACTION NOW!maybe, and obviously interested in Bob Gardner doing work with OCAC, and sharedpoliticalinterest.GK: Right. So, when you were involved in AIDS ACTION NOW! was… You’vementionedDarienTaylor,whowouldhavealsobeenco-chairwithGlenforaperiodoftime,andthenIthinkco-chairwithJamesThatcher.SK:JamesThatcherandBrianFarlinger.GK:Yes,afterthat.But,MaryLouiseAdamswasaroundatleastforawhile.SK:Shewas.GK:So,shewasaroundwhenyouwerefirstinvolved?SK:Yes.


13

GK:Okay.Becauseshe’squotedinthenewspaperarticlehere.SK:Shewas.Yes,whenIwasfirstinvolved.GK:Okay.SK: And then later, I’m trying to remember her name… Just before I stopped going tomeetingsanotherwoman,notLouise…Sorry,Iforgethername.GK:Well,lateronthere’sMaggieAtkinson.SK:MaggieAtkinson!GK:WhoactuallybecomesthepersonwhosustainsAIDSActionNow!forawhile.Ididwanttocomebacktothetimeyouwerearrested.SK:Okay.[laughter]GK:ThatwaswithKimCampbell?SK:Yes,anditwas…GK:So,weactuallyneedtocorrectthatbecausethat’sactuallyonthesiteintermsofhowBrentdescribesit.SK:Oh, it is!Oh, okay. So, itwasKimCampbell.Wewereout front and shewas going, Ibelieve, itmaynot havebeen the519; itmight havebeen aministrybuildingor federalbuilding.ItwasonChurchStreet.Ithinkitwasthe519though,orsomewherenearthere,and she was going in and we were protesting outside. And there was a large policepresence,andtheywerekindofpushingandshovingus.Iwasonbreakfrommyjobintheprovincialgovernment; rushedoveronmy lunchhour toparticipate,andapoliceofficergotbehindmeandwastryingtomusclehiswaytothe front,andpinchedmyelbowlikethis, and I threwmy elbowback in a reflexmotion, and turned around and said to him,“Thatreallyhurt. Iwantyourbadgenumber.”Andthatwasprobablymyfatalmistakeatthatmoment,andabout fiveminutes laterabunchof themmarchedoverandplacedmeunderarrestfor“assaultpolice.”AIDSACTIONNOW!wasreallygoodandputmeintouchwithBobKellerman,whobasically gavemeprobono legal servicesor actually I think itcostAIDSACTIONNOW!about two thousanddollars, so I thinkheprobablygave averyreducedrateforthat.Andthenitwenttocourt.IfIremembercorrectly,thejudge…IhadarestrictedorderthatIcouldn’tgonearQueen’sParkforsometime,andthenwhenitfinallygot to court the judge basically – there were two officers testifying – questioned theirrecordof it.Their recordat that timesaidsomethingalong the lines that Iwas trying toclimboverthem,andatwhichpointIassaultedtheoneofthem.AndIthinkbothoftheirnotes matched, and the judge may have said he didn’t find it believable, and basicallytosseditout,sothatwasit.


14

GK: So, when you moved your elbow back did you know it was a cop who waspushing?SK:Maybe.Maybe,buthereallypinchedithardanditwasareflexwhenIthrewmyelbowback.Mysenseof itat the timewas that if Ihadn’tasked forhisbadgenumber,nothingwouldhavehappened.ThathappenedIthinkashorttimeafterIwasatanOCACprotestinfront of the police station that’s onDundas just beforeUniversity, 52Division.Wewerestanding in front of a line of police officers, and one had taken his billy club anddrivenstraightintomybackhere,andsoIwaskindofverysensitivetotheirabuseatthatpoint.So,whenIrealizedthat–whetherI’dknownatthetimeorafterwhenIrealizedwhathehaddone–that’swhenIturnedaroundandaskedhimforhisbadgenumber.GK:Right.So, justtobeclear,thiswasAIDSACTIONNOW!havingaprotestagainstKimCampbell,whowasthenPrimeMinister…SK:That’sright.GK:…aboutAIDS.Wasthisduringtheelectioncampaign?SK:Shewasonlyprimeministerforashorttime,soitmighthavebeenduringtheelectioncampaign.Idon’tremember.GK:Okay.SK:Idon’trememberthatpart.Ididfindmyarrestticket,Iguess,ashorttimeago,andIcanlocatethatagain,becauseInowcanuseitintheclassroom.GK:Well,thatis“assaultpolice,”whatyoudid.SK:Right.GK:Accordingtothem,right?SK:Right.GK:So, that’squite interesting.Yes, Ididn’tknowanythingabout that,because theonlyothertimethatIwasawarethattherewerearrestswithAIDSACTIONNOW!;iswhenwe did the blockade at theBristolMyers office around ddI,which is I thinkbeforeyou’reinvolved.SK:Itwasbeforeme,yes.GK:And then thereweresevenofusarrestedalthough theydidn’t file thechargesagainstmeandRussellArmstrongproperly,sowegotoff.


15

SK:Okay.GK: And then at the end, AIDS ACTION NOW! decided that because ddI had beenreleased, it was not worthwhile to proceed with a legal case around this, so BobKellermanwasalsothelawyerforusinthatcase.SK:Iwasactuallyjuststandingtherewithasign;Ihadthefluthatday,soIwasstandingthereholdingmysign,andtherewasalotofjostling.Ithinkprobablytherewereacoupledifferent levels of security there; there was probably her PMO security, and probablyTorontopolice, anda lot of jostling, but Iwasn’t doing anything really interesting. Iwasstandingtherewithasign.JK:So,youweren’thoppingoverbothofthem?SK:No!Iwasn’tclimbingovertwosixfoottallpoliceofficers![laughter]GK:Justtobeclear.JK:Justontherecord.SK:Ihadtheflu…GK:I’msureyouwerereallylookingtobearrestedatthatparticularoccasion.SK:No,asacivilservant,Iwasnotinterestedinbeingarrestedatall.GK:So,didtheyjustticketyouordidtheytakeyoutothestation?SK:IgotaticketandIhadtogodowntothestation.GK:Andtheytookyou?SK:TheyeithertookmeorImetthemthere…GK:Well,“assaultpolice”isaheavy-dutycharge.SK:Itis.GK:You’reamajorcriminal!SK:Amajorcriminal![laughter]Iactuallywenttothedoctorafterwards,andphotographedthe bruise and everything. So, that I had that, but it was a little bit worrisome for me,becauseIwasworkingingovernmentatthattime,butitwasnothingheroicunfortunatelythatIwasdoing.Iwasjuststandingtherewithasign.


16

GK:Butyounevergotinanytrouble,becauseofitafter?SK:No,Ididn’t.GK: Oh, that’s good. I was going to ask you if you remember any other actions ororganizing you were involved in. Maybe one way of trying to get into that is justhavingyoudescribethephotosandimages,andanymemoriesthatcomeuparoundthem.SK: Yeah, when I look at these I think a lot about the visuals, and I think about ClareMeridew,whowasmygirlfriendatthetime.ClareMeridewwasthisexceedinglytalentedgraphicdesigner…So,thisimage,Garyyouwouldremember,wasalreadythere–theAIDSACTIONNOW!one,butClarepulledtogetheralotofthelaterimageryinjustanabsolutelybrilliantway.Wewouldsortofpitchtheideatoher,andshewouldgenerateplacardsandstickers and tattoos and come upwith the design for things. And sowhen I look at thepictures–andthesearethebestones–IthinkaboutClareexecutingalotofthevisualsforitthatweresoimportantand,youknow,helpingusgeneratethevariouscomponents.Evenof thatsandwichbagthatweused for thedie-inorhowthe ‘WheelofMisfortune’wouldlook,soIthinkalotaboutClare,whomightbesomeonethatwouldbegoodtointerview.Icangetyouhercontactinformationifyouhaven’treceivedityet.GK: No, we haven’t. I think I’ve seen her name once in the AIDS ACTION NEWSsomewhere.SK:Okay.Thisone…I’msureClarehelpeduscomeupwiththisplacardhereforthedie-in.


17

JK:Whatdoestheplacardsay?SK:AnonymousHIVtest.It’spinkandyellowwiththeAIDSACTIONNOW!Wewouldhavebeenholdingitup,soreallysimpleideatohaveadie-ininfronttheMinistry,andearlierIsaidChurchandWellesley,butthisisactuallyinfrontoftheMinistryofHealthatBayandWellesley.So,quickactionwithstrongvisualsagain.GK:And that onemayactuallybe aroundanonymous testing thenandnot aroundwomenandAIDSissuesatall,sowhoknows.SK:Yes.Unfortunately,Idon’tremember.So,thiswouldhavebeenparticipatinginanothermarchofsomekind;itwouldn’thavebeenoneofours.It’sobviouslytakingplaceatnight,butIdon’tremember.I’msorry.Rightthere?That’sBrentPaterson.

GK:You’reright.SK:KnowwhyIremember?Igotthesamehaircutashim,andhealwaysworehishatoverhishairtokeepdownthebangsandIrememberthinking,“Oh,Ineedtodothatbecausemybangsareflippingupallthetime!”JK:Anddoyouknowwhohe’swithinthepicture?SK:That’sme.


18

JK:Oh,okay![laughter]SK: Much younger version ofme.Andisthat…?GK:That’sJames.SK: James Thatcher. That’swhat I thought.Clarecameupwiththisdesignthat’sonhist-shirt; we had stickers for it.“We’re sick of lousy healthcare,” “Treatmentaccessnow”or “Treatments now.” And sothatwasa lotofwork.At thattime what we wanted to say,andhowdoes…GK: That’s a lot thinnerJamesthanearlieron.SK: Yes. And this looks likesimilar placards, right? So, itlooks like we publicly… We

used these lot.Theseones.Theycouldhavebeenat thatwomen’sprotest– “Stopkillingtime.”There’sJuliaBarnett,whoyou’veprobablyspokento.


19

GK:Yes,wehave.Herinterviewisonoursite.SK:And“DrugFundingnow.”So,asIsay,Idohaveawholeboxofoldstickers.GK:We’dlovetoseethatatsomepoint.SK:Yeah?Okay,whenIfinditIwillshipityourway.GK:Right.JK:Anddoyoumindifwewouldtaketheseandscanandthemandbringthemback?SK:No,gorightahead.JK:Oh,okay.They’rebeautiful.SK: These are just unrelated ones. This is something on an old floppy … It says AIDSACTIONNOW! Of course, I didn’t find the relevant box, but I found these little bits andpieces,soIhavetofigureouthowtoaccessthatatsomepoint.There’sthatone…Andthatlookslikeitwas—

GK:Thatwasapostcard.SK:Postcardfor…GK: I remember there being a postcard campaign. Oh no, this is actually… I knowwhatitis.


20

SK:itisaclipfromNancyNicols’film.GK: Yeah, I know it was “Gay Pride and Prejudice.” I remember that, but this isactually…Ihavenoideawhatitis.Anyway,wecanlookatthissomeothertime.Sobeyond that, do you remember anything else youwould have been involved in inorganizingaroundwithAIDSACTIONNOW!?SK:Notoffthetopofmyhead.Iremembergoingtoareallyfantastic…Well,itwaslikeanAGMoutofthecityataresort,andallkindsofmeetings,butIdon’trememberthespecificsofit.GK:Yes, that’s fine.At somepointyoudecide,or forwhatever reason, youarenotinvolved in AIDS ACTION NOW! anymore. Do you have any sense about how thatoccurredorwhenthatoccurred?SK: I think it’swhenIactuallystartedteaching,so I lostmy job in thegovernmentwhenMikeHarriscamein.WewereonstrikeandthenIlostmyjobandIdecidedtogobacktoschool, and tookayearoff to travel inbetween.And I think that’swhen I stoppedbeinginvolvedandIcamebackandwascompletely immersedandbasically lostallofmytimeandenergytoanythingbutteachingforseveralyears. Iknowthatthathappenedaround’97forme,butI’mnotsurehowinvolvedIwasin’96even.GK: Right. Okay. And it sounds from talking to other people that in AIDS ACTIONNOW!,there’sa fundamentalshift in ’95, ’96…Like, thenewdevelopmentsaroundthedrugcocktailarebecomingvisible topeople.And it’salso thecase thatpeoplewhowereHIV-positive,whothoughtforsuretheyweregoingtodie,begintorealizethatmaybethey’renot,andthereseemstobesortofawaningofenergy…SK:Therewas.GK:…of theactivismat thatpoint.And itsounds likeMaggie isactually thepersonwhoholdsAIDSACTIONNOW!togetherthroughanumberofthoseyears.SK: That sounds right. I remember that I andmaybewe started doing fewer and fewerprotests. Therewas somediscussion aboutwhat someof theAIDS serviceorganizationswere looking like. The same sort of things you saw in the women’s movement whensheltersandotherorganizations–rapecrisiscentres–getsetup.Howdoyoudealwithwhetherornottheygetabsorbedinto,youknow,sortoflosetouchwithwhat’shappeninginthegrassroots.So,Ithinktherewasdefinitelyalesseningofactivityfromprobably’95-96onfromwhatIremember.EveninlookingatwhatIcouldrememberwhenIwasgoingbackthroughmymemory,itseemedfromthatpointontherewasless.JK: Youmentioned the escortingwork beforewith your other activistwork,whenyouwereinvolvedwithAIDSACTIONNOW!didyoudoanyhospitalvisitsorsupportinthatwayorwasitmorewiththedirectaction?


21

SK: No. I became friends with a number of people. Not necessarily people who wereinvolvedimmediatelyinAIDSACTIONNOW!,butwithinthecommunityandbecamepartof some support teams at that time. Not necessarily. No. Not with people who wereinvolvedinAIDSACTIONNOW!JK:Oh,okay.SK:Justfromactuallystartingtoworkinthecommunity.BecauseIcameout...So,whenIwasatWestern…Ididn’tcomeoutuntilImovedtoYorkUniversity.AndthenwhenIcameto York I came out, got involved in the women’s community. Queer Nation was sort ofgettingstartedinTorontoatthattimeandgotinvolvedalittlebitwiththatbyjustgoingtotheirevents.So,alotwashappeningatthesametime.GK:DoyouhaveanymemoriesaboutQueerNation?SK:Justgoingtoakiss-inattheEatonCentre.Andaterribleevent,where–Idon’tknowifyouremember this– I think itwasaHalloweenmarchwherewemarched fromthe519downtoCarletonandthenbackupYonge,andwegotpeltedwiththingsfromahotelonCarleton. And then actually the police escorted everyone back to the 519 for safety, butotherthanthatIdon’tremembermuch.Iwouldhavegonetowhatevertheywereputtingon.GK:Doyouremembertherewasanevent thatAIDSACTIONNOW! supportedthatwas–thiswouldhavebeenattheinitiationofthefirstgulfwar–therewasajointAIDSACTIONNOW!,QueerNationmarchthat…Itwasafeedermarch.SK:Yes.Iwenttothat.Ihelped…Wemadeahugebannerthattookushoursandhoursandhours.Andactually,Iwastherewith…DidBrentSouthintalkaboutthis?Wewerethere.Ithinkwestayedmostof thenight in frontof theEmbassywithourbanners.Thatwouldhavebeen’91,right?GK:Yes.SK;Yes.Iwasthere.GK:Okay.Anotherquestionweoftenaskpeopleis,justdoyourememberwhatyouwerereadingintermsofwhatwouldhaveprovidedyouwithinformationaround?SK:Irememberbeinggivenyourbook.GK:Ohgod!Thatwasn’twhat Iwas looking for! [laughter]That’s therightanswer![laughter]


22

SK:No,Irememberdefinitelybeinggivenyourbook.AndIthinkitmighthavebeenonthereading listofoneof theclassesIwastakingat that time. Iwrotedowna few,soIcameacross these. There were two books that I found on my bookshelf –Women, AIDS andActivism and AIDS Cultural Activism. I remember those and reading Xtra!… There wasalways thischallengewithwhetherornotXtra!wasgoing tocoverwhatweweredoing.Outsideofthat,Idon’trememberanythingelse.AndIthinkSarahSchulmanwroteabookthatIrememberreading,butI’mnotsurewhen,aboutheractivisthistory.GK:Okay. So, youwouldhavegotmostof your informationaroundAIDSandAIDSactivismfromthingslikeXtra!?SK:No.AtthattimeIwouldhavegottenit fromAIDSACTIONNOW! fromstuffthatwasbeingwritten.GK:Inthenewsletter.SK:Yes.GK:InAIDSACTIONNEWS,yes.SK:Andatthemeetings.GK:Okay.SK:So,anythingthatwascomingout.JK:Wereyouinvolvedwithhelpingtowriteitaswell?SK:No.FromwhatIrememberthatTimandGlenandBobandothers.GK:Okay. So,oneother thingwere trying to is tonotonlyhave thememoriesandnarrativesofpeoplewhoarestillaroundwhowereinvolvedinAIDSACTIONNOW!,butalsotohavethememoriesofpeople,whohavepassedaway.Nowthisobviouslyismoredifficulttotalkabout,soifIraisemattersthatyoudon’twanttothinkaboutat all that’s fine, but are thereanyparticularpeople youwouldhave rememberedworkingwithduringthoseyears,whodied?SK:Yes.GregPavelich,BrianFarlinger, and JamesThatcher, I remember reallywell.Andsuch fantastic memories of Greg. He was such a great presence; so positive and suchamazing contributions toAIDSACTIONNOW!And James andBrian.Brian’s contributionwas…Idon’tknowifyouremember,didyougotohismemorial?GK:No,butIknowthat…Wasn’tMikeHarristhere?


23

SK:MikeHarriswasathismemorial. Imeanhewassuchan interestingguy,becausehewas,youknow,IguessfromtheestablishmentandthenbecameanactivistthroughAIDSACTIONNOW!,So,Irememberthosefolksreally,reallywell.GK: Yes, I mean there’s actually a layer of people in relationship to AIDS ACTIONNOW!whowerepartoftheelite,becomeHIV-positive,andactuallybecomeactivistsaroundit,whotosomeextenttrytousesomeofthoseofficialconnectionsaswell.SK:Briandidthat,andJamesaswell.GK:Bothofthem.Yes.SK:Andthenofthatgroup,Ithink,BobGardner,whodiedrecently,juststandsoutforme,becauseofhisabsolutelycriticalworkforOCACandforAIDSACTIONNOW!Hewasalwaysreally encouraging. So, even if some of us felt completely out of our league in terms ofactivismor,youknow,thinkingwork,hewouldstillsaythroughhisapproachandattitudetous,“You’rereallyimportant.Weneedyourinvolvement,”andbereally–it’ssomethingthatwedon’toftenthinkabout–hewouldcomeoveratthebeginningofaneventandsayhi to you and welcome you. Bob was completely intimidating for me, and absolutelyessentialtomycontinuedinvolvement,becausehewassoencouragingandinclusive.GK:WasthatinpartalsobecausehebridgedOCACandAIDSACTIONNOW!?SK:Maybe.Ithinkitwaspartofhispersonalityaswell,thathereallywantedtocontinuetobuildandtohaveothersinvolved.But,formeatthattime,AIDSACTIONNOW!wasreallylikealittleminicommunity.Itwasreally,reallywelcoming.Andatatimewhentherewasalothappeninginotherorganizationsinthecitythatperhapswouldmeanthattheyweren’taswelcoming,AIDSACTIONNOW!wasreally,reallyagreathome.AndIthink,forme,assomeoneatthetimewhowasastudentdoingwomen’sstudiesatYorkandwantingtobeanactivistalotoftheactionthatIsawhappeninginthecitywascomingfromAIDSActionNow!,soformeitallcamedowntothat.GK:That’sgreat.Iwasjustgoingtomentionsomeotherpeople’snames.And,Idon’tknow if youevenwouldhavemet someof thesepeople.DoyouhavememoriesofDougWilson,whowouldhavebeenaroundwhenyoufirstgotinvolved?SK:Iknowthename,butIdon’trememberhim.SamewithMichaelLynch.GK:Yeah,MichaelLynchwouldhavenotbeeninvolvedatallbythetimeyouwere.SK:No,that’sright.GK:DidyoueverrunintoGeorgeSmith?SK:Irememberthename,butIdon’trememberrunningintohim.


24

GK:SomeonenamedMichaelSmith?SK:MichaelSmith?Yes.GK:Okay!TellusaboutMichael.SK:I justrememberhearingthename,andseeingpicturesandhearingstories–fantasticactiviststories,butIdon’trememberanythinganypersonalmeetingswithhim.GK:WouldyouhaverunacrossKalpeshOza?Hewason thesteeringcommitteeatleastforawhile.SK:No.GK:Okay. And, again, I don’t really know in terms of the periodization, so anyoneelsethatyoucanremember?SK:Again,myimmediatecircletherewouldhavebeenDavidChu,BrentPatterson,BrentSouthin,ClareMeridew,JuliaBarnettandGlenBrown,whowasthisbiglinkbetweenwhatwashappeningatthesteeringcommitteeandwhattheactivistgroupwasdoing,andlaterDarienTaylor.JK:Doyouhaveanyfunnymemoriesormemoriesthatstandoutofyourworkwiththosepeople?SK:Manyfunnystories…Organizingthedie-inwasreallyintense.Itwasalotalotof,youknow,what I call gruntwork. Justhours andhours andhoursof stuffing, and therewasverylittleglamourindoingsomeofthosethingsormakingupthebanners.JK:Wouldyouworkasagroupor?SK: We did. We worked as group in someone’s space. A number of times we actuallyworkedinJohnGreyson’s.Hehadanapartmentinanartist’sco-op…GK:BeaverHall.SK:WasitBeaverHall?GK:Yeah,whichisnearOCAD.SK:Okay, soweused that space several times I think tomanufacture things, and all therunningaroundtotrytofindsomeonewhocanmake10,000stickers[laughter]–aunionshop–someonewhocanmake10,000buttonsorfind10,000piecesofchalkor,youknow,getasourcefor10,000tattoos.Therewasalotofrunningaroundatthattime.


25

GK:Right.We’removingtowardstheendofthis.Iwantedtomaybecomebacktoonething,becauseyouhavereflectedonthesignificanceandimportanceofAIDSACTIONNOW! in your life in terms of activism. Is there anythingmore youwanted to sayaboutthatintermsof…Itsoundslikeitreallytiedalotofthingstogetherforyou,foraperiodoftimeanyway.SK:Yes.So,whenImettheAIDSACTIONNOW!folks Iwasprettyyoung.Andas Isaid, Iwas studying andgot involvedwith the clinic support.AIDSActionNow!was absolutelyessentialtogaininganinterestinactivism,figuringoutwhatworkedandwhatdidn’t.AndtothisdaywhenIgotoaprotestandthere’sspeechesthatgoonforanhour,IthinkbacktothosemeetingsinAIDSACTIONNOW!abouthow,youknow,that’sthequickestwaytolosepeople.AndIthinkbacktoallthediscussionsthatwerehappeningatthattimeabouthow to organize something that will be effective. To this day I think about how thoselessonscouldbereallyhelpfulnow.But,forme,itwasreallytheonlytimewhenI’vebeenabletobeinvolvedinthatkindofreallymeaningfulorganizing;whatfeltlikeorganizingtowin.I’vebeeninvolvedinallkindsofthingssincethen,verylittlewithadirectactionfocusandverylittlewiththatkindofsenseofurgencyofacrisis,andIthinkthatreallyshapedit,right?It’sacrisis.Andsamewiththeabortionfightatthattime;bothwerekindofsingle-issuecrisiscampaignswithdirectactionassociatedwithit.Andsosincethen,asIsaid,I’vegone toevents,buthaven’tbeen involved.And I feel likeanarmchair critic [laughter]ofthose events givenmyearlier involvementwithAIDSACTIONNOW!andbeing someonewhowasabletohelpexecutesomeofthethings,butsincethattimehaven’thadthegreatchance todo it again.But, it really shapedhow I thinkabout certainly actions I go toororganizing.GK: So, we’re coming to the last two questions. As we’ve been talking is thereanythingelseyouhaverememberedthatyouwanttotalkaboutoranythingthatyouhaven’thadanopportunitytomention?SK:No.Iguess,andI’vesaidthisearlier,I justrememberbeinginaweofthepeoplewhowereorganizing.Verymuchfeelingmyinexperience,myage,mylackofskillsatthattime–certainlyprobably to thisday,but– feeling that senseof aweover thepeoplewhowereinvolvedinAIDSACTIONNOW!andfeelingreallyinspiredbythem.So,thekeypeoplewhowereinvolved.JK:Howoldwereyouwhenyoufirstgotinvolved?SK:So Iwouldhavebeen24?Maybe24?23,24,25… It felt really intimidating. Iknow Italked toDavid about that –David Chu,whowas involved. And, to some extent, I knowClarelateron.Wejustfeltintimidatedbythelevelofwhatwasbeingdiscussedandsomeofthestrategizing.AndsoasI’veindicatedearlier,Iwasreallyjust,youknow,keentodowhatever activist work I could with them and learn from it. I pictured at that point alifetimeofpossiblechange.Wewereonthecuspofsomething,andwehadalotofpower,andtheworldreallywasgoingtolookdifferentlater.And,ofcourse,thathasn’thappened


26

acrosstheboard.We’veseenrollbackafterrollbackafterrollbackinmanyareas.But,thatsenseIhadatthattime…BecauseIthinkofAIDSACTIONNOW!andwhatitwasdoing,hadthisgreatsenseofpossibility,ofallkindsofchangeinmanyareas.JK:Andabuiltinsenseofpurpose!SK:Yes.GK: That’s great. The last question really is, other people we should talk to. So,obviously,fromwhatyou’vesaidDavidChuisoneofthem.SK:AndIwasthinkingDavidChu,Brent–ofonesthatyou’veprobablyheardabout…DavidChu,BrentPatersonandClareMeridew,andIcangiveyouClare’scontactinformation.GK:Right.DoyouhaveanycontactwithDavidanymore?SK:No.Isawhimacoupleofyearsago,butIdidn’tseehim.IthoughtImightseehimatBob’smemorial,butIdidn’tseehimthere.GK: Anyone else you can think of? We’ve got a big list of people to interview inToronto.SK:Youdo.Okay.GK:ButIthinkthatwe’lltryto…ImeanwereallyareprobablynotgoingtogettogotoEurope,soIdon’tthinkBrentPatterson.SK:AndBrentPattersondoesn’tcomebackever.Doeshe?GK:Idon’tknow.Certainly,whenIraiseditwithGlenandwithsomebodyelseitjustdidn’tseemlikeapossibility.SK:Okay.GK:SoIdon’tknow.But,yes,we’dlovetotalktoBrentPaterson.SK:Well,noIcan’tthinkofanyoneelse.GK:Thisisallreallybeenextremelyhelpful,sogreat.SK:Well,asyoucansee,Iwasaperipheralmember,butithadabigimpactonmythinking.GK:Yes, andwealsowanted to talk to adiversityofpeoplewhowere involved inAIDS activism. Not just peoplewhowere the central core or “leaders,” but peoplewhowereinvolvedinallsortsofdifferentways.


27

SK:Right.GK:Thishasbeenreallygood.JK:Yes,itwasbeautiful.GK:AndveryhelpfulintermsofunderstandingalotmoreaboutAIDSACTIONNOW!So,thelastthingwedoisjustthankyouforyourparticipation.SK:Oh,well thankyou for theproject. It’s fantastic.…And Iworkedvery closelyat thattime with both Brent Southin and Brent Patterson. Spent a lot of time with those twostuffing.GK:YouwereknownastheActivistBrigade,whichreallyequalledthestuffersofthepackages.SK:[laughter]Oh,well,Iwasdoingalotofthat!…IthinkaboutthatwhenIgotoPridedaytoday.HowremarkableitwasthatweweretryingtocreatethisreallysignificantmomentinthemiddleofPridedaytofocusattention,andnowyoujustcan’tpictureanythinglikethateverhappening.GK: You couldn’t do it now, and you would never get the agreement of the Pridecommitteetodoit.SK:No. Itwas thisgreatmoment. It’snotamarch; it’saparadenow.So, thatwasprettyremarkable.GK:Yes.Thoseprettysignificantmassthingsthatthousandsofpeopleparticipatedin,andthat’sreallyquiteincredible.SK: I remember the one year we had the float. Just the mechanics of pulling that floattogetherwerehuge.GK:Yes.Forsure.SK:Yes.Again,whenIlookatPridedaytodayit’sjust,youknow,alittledemoralizing.Morethanalittledemoralizing.GK:Yes…IalsohelpedorganizePrideinSudbury,soinsmallercentersthere’sstilladifferentdynamicthatcanexistaroundPride.Butyes,Icompletelyagreewithyouaboutthat.Itjustcouldn’thappenanymore.Itwouldhavetohappeninsomeotherwayoratsomeotherevent.So,unlessthey’resomethingelseyouwanttosay?SK:No.I’msorryifIhaven’tbeenmorehelpful.


28

GK:No,thishasbeenveryhelpful—SK: Imean itwas reallyperipheral activist typework, and that’swhat I tookaway fromAIDSACTIONNOW!GK: Ioften think thatpeoplewho think theyweremoreperipheralwereprobablymorecentral than they think,becausewithout thework thatyoudid theseactionswouldn’t have happened. I mean when we talked to Renee she was actually thesecretary–awomanofcolourmadeintothesecretaryofAIDSACTIONNOW!prettyearlyon.But, that’salso importantwork,right? It’sreally important toreflect thatdiversityofinvolvementinpeople.JK:Andtothinkabouttheamountofgruntworkthatwouldgointobringingaboutchange!SK:Yes.Oftenthatkindofgetslost,right?Thatthiswasactuallyquiteabitofgruntwork.AndI’venoticedintheorganizationsI’vebeeninvolvedsincethatoftenonceweleavethetable,we’vedonethethinkingwork;there’snoonelefttodothegruntwork.Peopledon’twanttodothatgruntworkanymore,includingme(!)anditjustneverhappens.Andsowecomebacktothenextmeeting–we’rethinkingaboutitallagainandnothing’shappenedinthemeanwhile.[ENDOFTRANSCRIPT]

Documents

Interview Transcript 2015...as a crisis from Brent Southin and Glen Brown and Tim McCaskell. GK: Okay. We’ll get back into that. SK: But, in terms of when I actually heard about