Interview Transcript 1 (Florian)

8/17/2019 Interview Transcript 1 (Florian)

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Berlin Wall Interview

Interviewers: Lena and Liesel Kemmelmeier Interviewee: Florian Kemmelmeier

Florian Kemmelmeier was raised in Germany during the Cold War and is a Berlin

resident, tour guide for the Berlin Wall, and German historian and anthropologist.

Interviewer: How did the Berlin Wall cause those living in Berlin (specifically in

the East) to encounter problems both in their everyday life and with their

families?

Florian: To start with: Many East-Berliners had been working in the western part of the city, so

when the wall was erected on 11 August 1961, many could simply not get to work. ThoseEasterners who had stayed overnight at a friend's or a family member's place had the difficult

choice if they should stay there (sometimes leaving parents, children, partners etc. behind) or

go back to the East to continue their life. The economic and general situation in the DDR/GDR

had been and continued to be worse than in the West, so up to 1961 many Easterners had

moved to the western parts of Germany (which was the key reason for the GDR government to

build the wall, in order to prevent its own citizens from leaving the country), which was no longer

possible afterwards. Only retired persons were allowed to visit relatives in the West. All others, if

they wanted to join relatives in the West, had to make a choice for life. If they applied for leaving

the GDR, it was not clear if they would be granted permission, and since they were suspect of a

sort of 'treason' to the GDR, they often experienced discrimination. Not everyone of course had

family in the West. For the vast majority of GDR citizens, the only possibility to get abroad was

to do some tourism in Czechoslovakia or Hungary.

Interviewer: How was the Berlin Wall an exchange point for people with different

ideas or people from different places?

Florian: Basically, I would say the wall was not an exchange point and rather the prohibited

exchange among people.

I mean, one could say that the Soviet Union and American tanks facing each other at

"Checkpoint Charlie" (one of the few crossing points in the Berlin Wall) in October 1961 meantone of the peaks of the Cold War, showing both sides how close they were to 'real war' (which

would most certainly have been a nuclear war of mutual annihilation).

On the other hand, one maybe could say, that on the Western side the wall became a

symbol for the inhumanity of the communist regimes and therefore brought together all kinds of

anti-communist initiatives on the Western side, as well as artists painting on the wall, for

example). To take a look at the Berlin Wall was also a standard program for international guests


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of West Berlin. But I am not sure whether this should be called "exchange", maybe the wall

became a rather a symbol of self-affirmation in all this.

Interviewer: How did the Berlin Wall impact the world and people in countries

other than Germany?

Florian: This is difficult to say for me. I would say in general that the Berlin Wall was important

not that much because of the practical consequences of these 150 km of wall around

West-Berlin, but rather as a symbol. Berlin played an important role in the context of the Cold

War. Definitely in most parts of the world the 'hot conflicts' during the Cold War, in which the

confrontation of the two super powers US and the Soviet Union played a crucial role, were far

more important (and closer) than Berlin, just take a look at Korea or Vietnam in Asia, or Kongo

in Africa. However, one of the questions of the Cold War was, how countries would develop and

if they would join the Western or the Eastern Camp. The Berlin Wall in this regard might have

cemented a kind of stalemate in the middle of Europe. In countries like Poland or

Czechoslovakia it may have become additionally clear with the construction of the Berlin Wall,

that hopes to find freedom, democracy or a sort of peaceful ‘reunification’ of Europe were in

vain. One could add that most of Germany’s neighbors did not have any interest at all to have a

strong and undivided Germany as a neighbor, the experience of WWII (only some 20 years

ago), when Germany had attacked them was certainly all too fresh to many.

As a side remark: Between 1955 and 1969 the official West German policy was that if

another country would recognize the GDR as a state, diplomatic relations with Western

Germany were cut off. In consequence almost only countries that were in the Soviet led bloc

recognized the GDR as a state.

Interviewer: Why was the U.S so involved with the Berlin Crisis?

Florian: Kennedy supposedly said upon learning about the construction of the Berlin Wall: “A

wall is better than a war”. The US fear had been above all, that the special status of West Berlin,

which was controlled as a result of WWII by all four Allied powers (US/British/French(/Soviet)

would be jeopardized, and even worse, that the tiny island of West Berlin, surrounded by

communist Eastern Germany, could be easily taken by an attack of the Soviet Army. And this

would have certainly have had – again: rather symbolically than practically – far-reachingconsequences for the Cold War led all over the globe. The US therefore threatened with

massive (nuclear) retaliation in case of any attack. By the end of the 1950s the US was no

longer the dominating super power, the Soviet Union had caught up, being for example first in

sending a satellite into space (which created the so-called ‘sputnik shock’ in the West). So to

keep Berlin ‘free’ was very important as a symbol, all the more since the US and Western

military was comparatively week in comparison with the Soviet Union. For Berliners the memory


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of Kennedy’s speech in 1963 with the famous sentence: “Ich bin ein Berliner” is very important,

because Kennedy said that Berlin was a symbol of the ‘Free World’ which should be defended.

Interviewer: What happened afterwards because of the Berlin Wall?

Florian: Definitely the Berlin Wall contributed in the longer run to rising feelings of dissatisfaction

among the citizens of the GDR. Many felt trapped and compared their situation to the one of

Westerners which they could learn about for example on (Western) television which could be

received in most parts of Eastern Germany. In the 1980s the slogan “Die Mauer muß weg” ( sth.

like „The wall needs to fall“) was part of the peaceful protests which led – on the backdrop of a

reform policy carried out under Gorbachev in the Soviet Union – to the collapse of the GDR

regime in 1989. The Wall – which in Eastern terms was always labelled “Antifaschistischer

Schutzwall” (sth. like “anti-fascist protection wall”) pretending it was directed against intruders

from the west (and not against the own citizens trying to leave the country, as it was in reality) –

had become also a symbol of the hypocrisy of the governing party elites in the GDR, that people

were protesting against.

Interviewer: What was the Berlin Wall's historical signifigance?

Florian: I would say it sort of symbolized and cemented the stalemate of the Cold War. And it

symbolized as well the power of the GDR regime. The fall of the Wall on 9 November 1989 (i.e.

that people all of a sudden were generally allowed to leave the GDR) was THE central event

during the collapse of the GDR in 1989. The dissolution of the other remaining communistregimes in Europe can be seen at least partially as a consequence of this. In this regard, the

Wall symbolized the Cold War international order in Europe, and its fall made clear there would

be a new one.

Interviewer: What defined East Berlin/East Germany and West Berlin/West

Germany as two separate worlds?

Florian: First of all, of course the political system (one could say a lot more about this point).

Generally also the better living conditions in the West (not just financially), but on the other hand

for example there was no unemployment in the East. In fact the two worlds were separate

because traveling to the other side was sort of difficult (for Westerners) or all but impossible (for

most Easterners), but the worlds remained also sort of intermingled. The respective ‘other side’

played an important role in politics. Until the 1960s for both German States said that the

legitimate German state was them and that they would strive for reunification. In the beginning

of the 1970s there was mutual recognition as separate entities (the BRD/West Germany and the


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GDR signed a treaty). For kids of my generation in the West growing up as children in the

1980s, it was simply normal that there were two German States, we saw Easterners rather as

Foreigners than as Compatriots. I remember my personal first experience with someone from

the East, when in our school (I think I was 11, it must have been in 1989) a boy from the GDR

whose family had moved to the West (I am not quite sure if it was before or after November,

during the summer many people had fled via Hungary, where the border was no longer strictlycontrolled) appeared in our “Sport” class. I did not have much contact with him we met only

during sports. He had a sports dress which seemed to us very old-fashioned, talked a funny

dialect (probably Sächsisch/Saxonian), his haircut was to us completely out-of-date, so I would

assume his start among us others was not as easy as that (poor him!). To us in the Southwest

of Germany he clearly came from a “separate world” which we had never known much about

before, nor were really interested in, something which was rather typical (unfortunately).

However, in contrast to some of my friends, I felt real joy with the peaceful revolution in the GDR

and the German reunification…

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Interview Transcript 1 (Florian)