In the oourt ot fb. i'1irah tor the ohm o ha1d t ruGook. J · J , In the oourt ot fb. o ha1d t ruGook. i'1irah tor the fb. St 1:e Va. 1) Gi4.on 51111111. eo 2) Cubevu llanqo1 a 3)

, . ,

J

,

In the oourt ot fb.

o ha1d t ruGook. i'1irah tor the

fb. St 1:e

Va.

1) Gi4.on 51111111. eo

2) Cubevu llanqo1 a

3) trioh Sli'or1lbooi

4) onge.1 Justioe ~goanaa.

, \

,

In .x DC 37/6

bhargl •• t

Annuur. to CharB' Cheat

Ju .ot 342 - 65

ontenol 365 - 367

itnUBeI

1) Jo Jaooba 1 -33

l) J08.~h .,a1l1 33 - 78

3) John Jaoob. 78 - 62

4) .l.mut ~ek1 82 - 120

') llaward anso 126 - 159

15) 14D~h'C nahan1 159 - 168

7) lD~aaiD 1la71l. leo - 192

6) Allred • lIhkUaa 19. - 195

,. 0 d

1) 1 Ion BIoO,1 195 - 234

2) ijah Cubevu Xansqa1aea 234 - 281

3) atriCk bool 281 - 314

4) Justiol I,oonga 314 - 342

I oribe ~art1fioat.

e.aona

ot10" of Appeal 1 - 4

reViOU8 Conviotion. 1 - 4

ohm

, .

•

•

•

•

OIARGE SHu;r, REGIONAL DIVISIO';

J. 17-'.

No._---.;~~1---I·_651

Hl\c flnter-prinlJ ~n akcn'1 YtnlT

rolict'Sta,ion flew Law- Ct art I

R.C.A N0=49&a:F.P.J6""

IN TilE COURT OF THE MAGISTRATB.

For the Division orr __ ~..41l,",,"'n- "4J.io 8 _, held "'--.... r ~----

eeforc ___ _ llczu:1dlvn!r'ltrt--Magistrute for the 5aid Division , on the l~.;hh--

TilE STATE 1'CrJ't'S

Esquire,

day or Jl1n •• ----19~.

u.l (2)

,1),1 !.L;" ~C.I"\IHI' B/, • 13.::y- t

H) (4.)

charged "'jlh the offence of -1,.--"", ........... '"

- -- :,I~2 Y"II. BAllI

.,=r •

1IIal.-i:9 l' e. S , J\I..u. .. 20. -rh. :3

(hereinafter called the accused),

inthlll.upon(or4bout)the' _______ ~d3Yorr------------ 19-

and in the said Division ,

the said accused did wrongfully and unlawfuli:,

The accused. being arrnigocd, pleaded ur---tcnn--.cCU u- ,lead In; ny'

Judgmenl-itll fetlr aeCU:8titU

Sentence en Bccused On Cotlllt 11 ".r!U"ui yr • "lii,&"rlaonmcnt.: . :tacb accused olr" "'C0tllft-"'2l- 7iiO y r s-:-a}J-risonment:""""

-,

,

FOR THE STATE

fOR DEFENCE: • • •

• -r-~""'e"B-TI .... "w·-r'r""". ;'b,yMr flU'IIa,ym_"'DPr (f AIll'OnaOn. INTERPRETER, -'~~~"~~~9V~------------------------. J . van '~ A:KltK:

~

1~ . ~ . 65. u · to 1 . 6. 65 . ced . in cuetoq.

t! . • Ill", • • I ! ~.

15 . ~ . 65: • to 17. 6. 65 . cd . 11'11 CIJ. .. Id¥ .

. J . .I;o"J1 . I ute • I ...

Cn If'. 6. 65. R • to 17. 6. 65 . eel • 1n cuetody.

"" . ., . ,vI :

"". <". On 17. 6. 65. .... to 18.6. 65 . Aced. 1n clle t od,y •

• J . .BJ;ZlJl U • WI: • • OIC RU.c.

011 18. 6. 65. R_. to 21 . 6. 65 . Aced . 1neu. tody •

~ . J . W U"" • • 01 •

II 21 . E. 65 . Bert. to 22. 6. 65 . Aced . 1n clleto!lJr .

C. • 01 o • All • • 01 ... lUr~.

" (; . s .. "0. 37/65 .

In the ma~~ur between l

GID 1'1 NG~ANGA ' First AHullant

CUIlAVU 1[A,1GQALUA: Seoond Appell "n ,

PURICK AJU lI : It.ird A~pellunt

JUS .. U3 11 <-IINGA. Fourth Appellant

and

Xlij; SU:rS Reapondent

II TI~Ji OJ' APP AL .

£0 ~~ ROrI~~ th t the above- mentioned

Aplellants hereby note an Appeal ugainet the sen'ence

impoeed on them by R. ~ZUIDbNHOUr , Regional agietrate ,

on tbe 23rd day of JUN~ , 1965 , on the following grounder

1 . lb. sentence was axe. eiva in the oircumetkDc8a;

2. 1hs Court misdireoted itself in failing to have

reg rd to the youth of the Appellante in determining

the ~wrt~nee ~o be i.posed .

D £ D II OR ELIZA!:ra TBlS 23RD DAY OF JUL , 1965 .

r :

ALL, S L

25 Bin Street, P •• Box 457, p"..u .a.I~IIB"ffl .

rhe Cl.r~ of the Regional .... '.urt . qgistr ~e t 8 l;Ourt,

Iwi{A1Jl;~ .

1.

2 •

• ~ .

.. . _----.... -----

~. . •

- --- - ---------

- 1 -

w •

•

;Jl.1c bls to thU vl~llO!O .

~I l1cG. - Wi-

t lou _ t

_ tile, all _beNd O!II to r • - I _ .1Id I

• • 1f - I ~.-. OCllMd • 1 .

, - C1dsiDD • o • IUs C;::tml~ -

a' - I ImOv IW:l ']I) 0· .... •• n:mlll~ . I Im< ...

na:;1II or G •

I !Ill ~E~ 1011 III to to per10d 1962, tbs tiftt

It t 1962. 1'0 t t

fillka .:;.~~~, 1,1rtmI • r1D41 -

t1.s tile 1.sU1ct t rt BUablth. - ra •• , tile r -u. bel ,- I'. to too •

It . 11.

1nt out. t bo~T - lIIt

or l:nll'1Ill ace • 1 10 1962 7 -

1 th1I!Ik I kntlv • 1 ,. 8 betoN 196;:.

. 17 1 tto

u;ut,p;lea, it po 1b . r 1)8 1011 Wilt to 1

toa- 1'. JOa to a_ l.n1tl.atlon

p ice tIIIr , 70\1 vld 4 t.b8

- I al a laite t .. t .107

I pla1H wit •

. ~ - - •

t? - P).aJe4 vl t cllce •

• 2, v t 18 1118 ? - ubavu.

lIr!IaDII 7 - I n't Il1a 8Ul'11a11111.

• lib a4llrvu? - Ja wu treat, lie" _,~tCll1 1c:I tlon,

rt ¥11sabttll dlstrlct .

r? -- 1 't ItDcIW tba IllICIbar of the \Ill •

Can 10u po1llt alit t IIsd - I can po1llt wt t tIoWle .

bov co t t 1011 ItI1CII Hcusell • 2? _ As tar aa

X caD ... r 'tile fu.t t1* I • 2 w s 111 rtll

bare 111 ~rt Uzaba ,the rtIl

1l1&a bt til 111 196 • JeU 111 rt

80 ere 10 4ata1oe4 togetlltr? - Va w... ta1aa4

to tlln 111 _ cell, 'S Wl'9 .... 'ut1nl tr1al .

414 you a or III04lt 111m aubaa lit to :four utalltton

111 1\)601 - Yea, I IWI 111 U. street, £lU1bl;1lla. I

l.Dd vith him 111 tilt at ta af'tor 1960.

And than accllA4 • 3, 40 ;rou koOv 111m? _ 1 •

lib II:IIIII? - n1ng1 rtboo1.

en r "",.a? - Patr1clr. Any other __ ? _ other

4ftasf - hrgUsoa.

~rt B11zabet

file Illllllbor' - I 4OQ't ,.,.

0411 JI01IIt alit the •

For bov 10na baYa you kIwvn accll88

•

• 3' - or a a • that vaa Il1a drlnktn~ placa

at DCC • 3" be •

1011 4ranlr. tocat r tor quite IlOlIIII t1llll? _ Co ct. do 1011 kcov 111m well or !lOU - I know II1a wU.

D DOCute • It . - I IaIov • • U. I' - 81 III t.Lao • Jlllt1ce? - I I11iI ytlla ot a, ,

- 3 - • II D1,ck!Ia:ma .

ot. l' s . tba 111 lUlltica h1a real J\I1JIIII aDd

h1a n1okM.... . -- I be11evo tlwy caU b1II 1ce

at n . Il1s IHlJresa? - stu,.. lit. 'l1mka t1'8 t . 1&bton

Location, I'. DOt too II • 1 th1nk • 11 . 111 t/ll

alder brother Of IlCC1l8e _ . 1.

llod COlll8 t )'OU knov BCOlaed . "7 _ _ I know

h1lII t'l'om I1Il!Ita tree t • I sa to &0 tllat'll, we IIlIIlb1t4

to 8 t.IIar, playad dice AM no II dll, t.ol\!l • •

ow, you know, or t:Olll'lIe, that D . 1 .. at'll brat r .

n4 t. y staTed to ather 111 tlw sa.. bouse . _ te .

tall lilt, bat'll did ,"ou Iba at. t.1le liel ot l3627 - Co 1clciJr treet, 158,

ow bent tu 111 l' t'118t first ot aU fro

f1.aka at at? - Four .treata bet1 • ftIIka tNa .

And Connicksr StN hom Jabaw Ii~reet 'I - CIoJ.,y ons

.treat, areulen ,0:. •

An t JfI other .treat, I tb1Jlk accused • 3 11n 14

8l'g1lSOn treat. so treat frOID COIIa1ck I' t1'8 t'l

.. - tre.ta 111 bIItwln, ~u.t tIIa 1lIUt • t .

IIpparentl1 it 11 IIU in liP rox11!!1!ta 17 tbll _ IU'IOtC ,

t sa bouse. an ddreaSlIl. -- or t 11 C rrect .

I\:Iqo

1011 Jaww lI!l7th1ng about an orp.n1 •• t..ton • tbll

t

Ur1can1..st.,:on 1St _ I Inv~.

YOIl knov about t 111 or nia tiOD'I 1'1rat ot aU, ware you a a.bar' - I 8 8 abar of , C.

OY 111 P ~ .tr1ciUl1l1t Co II' - !bat 18 corNe •

I. t t &ll II rniatJ.oo ot tm JIQn Atr1can1st eon:,rellst

10 otbar va a •• C • • PJe. 'I -- Corract .

;}lao 414 you 30in'th!a 01' is tloo' _ I'. DOt

too lure vlletller it s at he 110 of 1961 Dr t/ll tla,in ina ot 19 •

II 14 1t. COQl bout

- '11'st of all v t I bD lit t 11 Orpntsat , I

- It -111 t rs about 1t .

I I 'BO . r ~'a 1)r1or to this 4ate , 1s 1t? - lozo

t.I the bte I 'oilled.

I !tUII •• t1Dl I)r 1111' to t! t t 70U

~ 1 in the pera . - It is.

t !low d1l1 .it about t t )'cu otuall7 ,0iDa tbb

orpn!sat10n7 -- HbIIl1 Aa4 TIIoIllll S.

Jlbel! - aI:e • ta, I at t SII

people in ercuson Ro at U's hi> • s th1a. -- I ' m not tlX> 811ft it it " • tha end

ot 1 6.1 or the ba£1n:1nl ot 1 ') .

tban tooy appro ohad 7Ou' _

•

• A •• " - .a-.1.rst or

1

1

abollt 1t.

about th1a or&an1s t1 . I told t II JUII,

......... about; to • ttl' ill re 111 tl» zo

11111 10 supply tho with .1oul.ar., __

I told tlllll onl;r that I,. aba'olt tt1s orpn1 tlon 1n tl»

•

n ,"ou J01:l44, d14 )'ou7 _ I ,01ae •

ci!lY --

•

Ik>w fOil Joint t d ;rOil to 1:.800 II rt

1410U vo to a1cD R/lTth1.ai, V8re 7011 1&s 1tb

tlf;J Or IIerllh1p c: Or s thing' -- Hbal1 t 14

IIIIt t t • • C. 18 8.ll orgallhet1on to t1chts tba 14 ... , b t t t 18 lIDt the p01l1t tor tbe U_ b111IIC. a!tao ......

1 don' t ~t. t t it 11 !warn.Y ev14el1C.. I llll1t" t to

trJ' and tout .trom 10u hilt I' 10 111 tact ~o , blw

fO Jo • t r)'o your 1lIl1Vbare t

he .,.084. - I Vl'Ote doItll 111 name 111 a b •

• 414 70U ce t tbs oJ!: ? -- It VB. IIOtabook,

Nlau. too th1s tetOCJt 0 ot h1I poctut.

JOU wrote 70 III Q~lrea. 1A t

- , - • - ~'. cor~ t .

other particulars -- :bal:1 tile told 11'

• t .

t Ilbout JOW' ccc:up t10n JOU haw to enter

that 10 t b;)ok or not? -- o.

ADd UllIn trom then _arda, JOu Jourself :reClINe JCIl

as a Elcho,,, . -- Correct.

And JOU oUoade Q t1n&o or th1a orlr'-'-'-" • - Ye •

tere II'a &0 any turt r, to II Il:l nov II' t the a

tile 0 J at. or t t or&an1sat1Dn, that is ~. .v. reo

OU told u. tast or all that JOII bIId to P8¥ 2, oeQts sUb-

sor1pt1On tee

COrNe .

rs 1p tB . Ie h t =m et? -

AltbD 'to il1il.n' t p&J it.

..ow, hat vera t 1mII

hit. people, tbe 1"',.&1: .

Ilcw Yare lOU to It1l t

ot PII¥ .it . -- I iI

obJeots? - k1U t ..

ns' -- J'II 10

to .. 111 t!lese "bite pecplt \11th weapell3 va are ,o~ to

lteal 10 town and 8t tile c: ge ott1co .

t.'1

teal napens. 111 k1.ad ot voapona' - ODS " -to •

to .teal t.bem? -

poUce sta~1O s all4 at 8 .ops who sell vaapo •

At nit1Dn s ps or &r 't1 n. II . -

at 80Il0018 Ii re tba e eta • • AlIT otber place a7 -- C 4:C 0 t1ces, tllo -aar ~:lGa .

hat 0 J~U lIGan bY, tbe aLlre rous w n JOu t

.. romas? -- :.:hat's CIa place" ftI the 01 iGra Ito)"

t t look atter tbe sarace t other ve the1'l1.

1st t10 rt lUaboth? - In rt ll£Ilbet •

I o not want to • ev enc • • I'll tao 10 " vitb !'oJ't • I don't y t pUc lit aU, I vna Wora 10 ano tiler t 101 'Wilen t ~ ev co 1:1

- 6 - ~~"

bat t 111 t t:» ae~ 1tself t 1t 11 tba U '1!7

e next 001' to tba aal'odrO ,1' III toU:. .1111: b1a wte bar

t 111 ~ r1'8ct . -- ft t 11 t!» II1lltul ca at 11't

till! 101:1111'5 stay.

l'1l't ~ s . • once )'Ou have the we nJ.

l'S )'Ou to 11 'tba uropealls? -- lCI.ll them d III

1& t .

p8al14? -- 0, everl It boa

got • Ii 1ta slUn, ho sq •

baa would IOU illl the urope&IlS? -- In ~3 whe

bUkve c s out ot Jall .

be' -1& the t11'st 181 va

told II1II tIIa t

rounder ot J.s or&aniSat1o •

ar a .. t ... OC1lla:= .

t )'OU re a II1II l' ro • 01 till' S IOU val'S

concel'rul 14)'Our own II1nd, t. t 1A1trul!:'o'e Vall Ie r ot

t!l1a orpniaat1on? - •

I; 15 1s chr.lstinn _ or '[)on' t)'O IaIOVt

It:la Jt 1mportant. - 0, ba SS18 he 40el ;t.

Jail at tbe

And

)'Ou to14 U8 t t

• -- n vu 1A 3 U.

Ii ul4 be raleucd 1:1 ~963 and. tlll!n

the treedcm 1Ou. - t 15 C 1'1'80 •

arter 70U Jo1nad t. 11 01'£11011 t • w

Ii"

the tirst tlnlt Iwre all1 ot t 8e d W1'8

P sent. - be r11'.t l:IIet coua. 1, 2 It WI'

presant .

n ve llhall reter to tlIese lIIIIat1. • s t

or 3rd 1188tllli: or \; tevu he case ~.. 1 t.

or "til IIOct1nj;. 0 tlla t11'st t1ll& )'ou tte

<0 vare jll'8 .. nt. -. correct.

o vu till. 1»8t1Jlg - It

ret -

ol'd? -_

or.!t1 J

loa 701' •

or

• re1 - In t. ~unt~ • ~-._ or t INa;) or be tln. II tevar,

• to calli . 1,11 010107-

1 111;.011 Loc 1010:: .

t 1'1; ll:n bet d1striet t.IlIl

tar~ po . ~ t. 1a va. 1t v

Slo 1 lv1s

tblI etlr/i

or the v8als. 1r ~ou 1'0 • -. • t

mbar tho OXDct da1 b L it vas tower s t ot. ek. h:JV 1)'011 t to t All ting _

6U, ............ '"'-", ° tbit la.iit .• tlOll, tllere tore, lIa.,

)'011 to t • atillo: . - Ge t.allpe c roWlil

tor lie tor t ~t _at •

fill)' to ¥Our uae 7 - r t ' G correct .

n tbe), accOltpllll1lld )'OU to tile meeting' _

U88 va ent to aecuse 1. 2 aQ4 4. • collactG t III

• othan an tbeo • lot to tbe •• t.!oJ .

t 11 wilt re 41d yeu EO tOt - t lite

lila or t 1 •

14 10 go 1rectlJ to !(we ON ta41

P' , tor 1DataIlC8? - - I Got to t .... ~p at U. shopa . 8 to pas. t • • to

to a rei lum.

d1d )'0Il .top Itt tho .boll? - ~b:1t'. tile place

v re we 1> 4 tor t bt r .

nd 14 1011 tbeJl alae cellact otber. at tI» a s1-

110 ot u ~o us at t1le sbOps, 50 'WI W 011 to

a er tad1 •

bit 10U r1vet1.t a ° ... t;ad1 Vlrt t ra ""'",,,.

pl. t. "' "41t1ll... t 10? - l'O vera 1lOI:II pooplD

vel t %'II tel' ua

..... oml11 t. r .

t~N Vllre a0J'le • ._ lss. ,P<Iop1e alll TOil .. t . "" t 1'8 all

- 8 -to t 1', t

~ . 11; .tncllid 1fO lUI 1fO\U' u, -- or

It s dark, I taka it. - It v.. •

, tlrst or aU, losapb 3aU preH.llt? _ r •• , tbe re. X b1lI we calII8 •

And v. 1lIIIlt tlaJeki bere' - in, lise I w. t rc tor •

Ma,O/lJIlP t -- Be vas alse there, becallSG I

tor •

And 1fO 'VI alraad7 told ua that .CCII 4 s . 1, 2

wre alao there . - res .

are there ~ otbnr people apart tbeae that 701I'va

lIOII IIBnttollld' I t ~II to aant,to 2 or 3 nuu. __

0l0d';1.tn 11, •

t.' a suttlciant tor the U.. be . , vhat traru:-

p1re at t!l1a ... t1nz-jllaca' - 11 ItOQC1 up, raiaed Ilia

r1 t lth UlC palJl toft'8rd. a.DI! 8814 na_ Let.bu .

As :va trat • -- res .

1& that a salute" - t. 1& a .. lilts.

We U now. 8JtPla1n to us w t. 0 J'OU an by thla salate .

- It say. it 11 0 count.ry t.l:I1a. a.DI! th1. _t 1£ I

.. c. _tiD •

rll, 8JtPll1n to us the .." • lllta . o 'ft DOW

strate that till aile person wlll4 raise Ilia a.DI!

V01Ild JUlY ne_ Le . tbe ot.ber 7 _ '1'

uSienca "plias, tbey JUlY UIalWlloa. t t ana our 1D1l.

II t voul4 tbIIy wlth tbelr dght band.? -

they alae ra1aa t 11' I'll "wit the palm torvard

• abllll&8l'l Uta that laluta \' - •

bo oould \lSI t t. wilts' - ,,_,. ot tbe P. C.

organS.. •

t 14 1fO actusl11 110 or IS 14 the II e actualll

n tbey N7 Drbla? t did tbIIr tl7 to c P

- 9 -- I11a 10 COllllU7, 0 sro •

a, bat. II 4111 tbi7 bava to I'll ll" - I don't •

U cava the cal.Dte aDd andlonc add •

- Correct.

vbat 111 be 8tl7 - ~.o;t=? - .ball tbe 01.4 we

t knCv tba Ii'lI U'V IDIl1Dbe or t •• c-. orpnSltit •

D14 be tell rou 0 1iI bo .tntom tbll aud1anca II t sort

ot a ot t 111 lIo.st - told the t t tll.1a 111 II I'. i . •

•

bat 111 till ltt'e:reace be u • • • • and

There 111 n:I 41ttarenee be en the tile .

0' -o be told 700 that th18 vas. ••• _atin • batd_

- t to kill tbe to peoplR and taka back our

co tr,. \/hat .,... did U 1a7? - verythina be sa at tll.1a

t not toU people "lID

are t 1'8 or thU or£l'nuatlOl:.

!Cas, Br.)'tll1n: else -- lie t COIllO to the .. Ill! t10iB

QrElllld, UD I:A1 VIlS, t.bDaa or Il8

PUC"', IIIIIIt br tl:Je

f - U IIll1 tr I!iII peopla

t4Ilt t •

ve wnpons Uke

there, ItWIt

~ people 10 partleul t - .L1l;e pol1co .

o it the poUca come t

k1ll tbe •

, t then" - lie t

, -- police =t IIDt krKnr aboot then . A" .

.. at1Oia .

tn, wbat alae ~ 1lba11 Slq? - n be c10

._t1l1l: - U .

1Icw 1iI clOse til! lIlOet1Di:' - III atoocl up, lIB pve

tbII.alU b7 l'Il1a1n& r1£ht w1th llII t • III

add na lA. aM npUa and add, w1th tile rilht

Dlltlll ra1ae , IW'Jaba.

Betore !IV I!O &Dr Ntlkar. 1t1 /;{.lJt _noet.? - 1'.. to14 t ColIrt t t ever:rW111lll t t " ..

- 10 -

8 tile a ecrat, • c ot go and 41£ lIS

it v1 bod.T alee.

l!' f01I d1vul all1 or t e ReNts? -- t

1'80 Y01t'~

o 11 a tile onl1 speaker at tll1s irat ot

t t ytr.1 at ed? - fe 0

.1Ien 7011 allo _nUoM so thinJ abollt CtIa eo !'ell

_t 111( about that 'pleas 0 - .. po:pla Ii

post91. !stance away hi .. t to a.Q(\ ...

t t 0 atr ~'l. 0 to thil III oting.

111' -- fte PI 'pla vbo aN aot _mbars or this or 01-

satl.O r pol1oe IllUSt n:lt co to t ••

t vere thl DUes or tbe .. &11Ill'ds

l1lceman 14 Gil" - It Ilfl3tIl1ng ap

one ot tbUI b aant to

etle •

o VII tho f -. 1:0 n t o

• n:U'a

tlllln

II at

t po .. 1II.in attendallee, v >at tile,. tho" of _

n ,.. 8t 0 t our voapGllS 0

, - flIe v. u t Il1t an4 lliten to vhat tl;.1a

, ... ,-... 0 the laa or IIII7B bet we t do.

dU f01I ttelll1 a .. coM tin, vllent

WN p:e.nt or lloel or the accused vue preaa t? - I

att ll4ed lie ing OD a '" t:rin tile • ccuae4 1, 2

ere pN.ant at that at 0

tore ,Ie CO eJl1 fort 1' , who a c!reue t--1s 1M t1n4.

because I t !1tIk that 18 the onl1 way Il1 vMo va CaD lLWnti-

t ..,et1ngl. he a sptakarf - tbat , a ,t Iter tram Johanna,bur 0

wOOn vas th111 meeting? -- It • 0 a ... w .....

rin t!le rq.

hat t1lll IIIOre 01' le .. ? -

tile 1I01'Ilin •

n ¥ S 1U _

t 1 . 3 or U o'clock

•

- 11 - ...,' ::.=.,;., • 414 10\1 !? to t IIIIl Un' -

~. to _ at IIIJ •

Yu, re 414 )'Oil two tt ,- J'rOII tile t

tr t to 'leU 4 • 2'. h:l1~. ~ltI t J'II

Su. t to 1'. b:lt1llC'.

ot thi. pc, ... ,,,,,? '1. k l' X.

lIB ot the vUnea .? I .... JU, lie • IIot • w1 s

t JOU - t10aad h1a !lUll •• diar, H 1 • k • vent

to !ti'. boa", vheft vas tet • AII4 theJ1, litter

,- ro tIlere 1018 at to 'l'1mka tl'tl t to 8 IUI8

1'. llImoo ao4 to o U .... s tbore,

C rr:r con t that 1& co ae 0 . ...

fir to ny of the .ccu_d, pl. 8 usa

Qll!~bell bee. I t th1a 'l1li8 DOt! a d1ft81'Gat

pcrao , ,oil .. • So you flr.t t all te ebB CIUU • 2, I t :ink you sald. sad ttell 8cellSed • It. - P'cur nd

1 .

In t t nqueace, 2. 8

Mcused 1 and 4 81'0 b1'Ot 1"', t

1. 18 that what J'O &a7? -

If U VII 111 OIlG bDu=. o • I .... 111 tlle.1I nee, 2 8 It and 1 at the SIOIIIII

tSJIlI . 14 IOU 8180 teteh ot l' PI la? Doa't Uon

tllalr • because 1 dan' t th1nk it it 1IIIportaat, ,part

fro tlwse paop18' -- t •••

v re 1d you tllen eo to? - • at to t b h

at • Fort 1 .

1rcot17' -- We VIInt put tlla .!Iops.

14 )'OIl atop at t lbops' -- lltopped t tlla. pa.

B!! t w~ re t I'!I any Ughts t tlw 1\ pd -- 80,

t VII. dtu'1II tile dq.

b, VlI. 1t 4111'111 the dalf, or course, tbe

Ut/ltII at 111 tv - 0 11, ts et t t p .t n1&ht. you want to..... ort StD4 and \then 1011 ardft4

tbue WI,. t ft III:Q' people va1t1n!l tor ,ou? - Yes,

also • _ra pon.d. 1'8 11 to ,. _

J'II • a

'. 12 - lAC ,

e 5001'6 .

There v. uita m:mbe1'. FJrat or aU, 414 Jo pll

lIJati atto 111 meat ? - W II tile",.

Mlt1lllllt IIiOkl" - Yes, s one or the per II

whall I tate 4.

An/!

IIl1011 I ... nt own tor.

lOU' VII told III that IIc_4 I . 1, 2

alao tile"" - Yac .

0It e1va WI two or t • _& of an:T other people wIlD

also otte 4 this meet • - Al.tred ·ea118, Porten

Wall, that 13 I1lI1't1c1ll t tor the t1ll8 lle1nt . 011, II

<11'88 4 th11 "8t1ll1' - It vall a lit. pe aka l' f'l'oIII

Johannel • Yes, tr.lt waan' t in rod rJ.rlt of aU' -- 111

lAtZ'Oduced b1a to tile •• t •

It II 0 11 1 o. 414 he lAtrod tM. an' -.a told us that t 13 an 111 coS,ng to d;rea. t _ t1Dg,

• pa rro. lo~abur,. D14 he open tile U.ag lit I1U' -- !lO also adde4

t t 11 eb1et ot the task FOrco.

D14 aaybod,T opGn t KbDlllllo open thl

•• IIDv 414 III ope et1lls' - St004 JI, ra1Rd b1a

1'1&ht band vlth palll rOl'V rd, aald llilMl IRtbu aDd ve

repUe4 lIblaba .

E!li!I I /bat type r t vas t1l1l' -- It vas. • • •

Metin •

• bo ad cO, -- • kneY tlmt at tile ._t1ll&

llere t .. lute 11 civezl, it 1s a •• C. _Uat.

It vas DOt 1Ia14 by tIl; r tile apeaialra? -- 110.

o 10 lAtroduetd this .an all tile 7asll: FOrce leader'

- Yes.

........... ------------------- 13 - •

I /lava tor ot ,

414 Ebo,04lo N.f anyt 111& else' -

baa COllI 1IUIp&ct ~

1 Port res, allYt 111& 8lso t t 10 81114' -

s t Cown 8Il4 t 18 J:1lIIst speaker stoOd u ,

YII, \l JlOW be1'o cot to tl11a Illest spaab t wbat

~ p 414 bI lpe itt -!be t l' BpCI 111

inCUs 8Il4 ID>oll41o 1IIturpreta4 to liS 1.1 ,

did t'da st s'::::lIk81' start l11s c~l!eb' t 414

do betore dresa1ll& a1lI:l~:lCtI' - &ave tba 1181 te

IlaD18 IDt V8 re,,~wQ tbbl.ba .

Yea, tIn4 what 4 be tllln ..,., 1t

than .. 14 III cot 8 a • to ,.

111 rt 1111 bath 1 • t n a14 VB a

OUt' t1aIl,

s, II t "Ire

dOA' t or nue.

Ao,yt 111& alae t t S I18n 881d' - sa14 be aDDIs

tr01ll Cape Best toDl!o , there 18 quite 8 lOt

01' Ilk res ,

ban? And? -

aod .. at lmIdon.

what .bout t.hus phon? - JIe 11814 tbere .\11

l11te • crowd or th1B 511: oree, there are III1ll:T ot thS •

Y •• , w t else? - e mttlIt tr7 to orlenise to pt

_ IIOre aI: Forca . "Mn be COIIOe tor thl .. ooDl!

t1a, be Bt17S this place must be tull 01' fask FOree .

Yes, vhllt about be attaell:, 414 III SIl1 8Q1th1Dl sbO

thl at cU -

Vbate t 14 us tbe

tile 111\0 la or

t bQ s id oth1n~ II at tbo otta •

414 be 6111 t 10U n re31!1ber? -

t1al vben be 0 to lllUab8th,

rt &l~ .. to ~ ... ~ .

~1Iet -

- lit -

11 10 t Inm • vere )'Ou to 0 10 tbe busse" 1 VDUld 11D

to 1aIoV. - n )'OlI s1t 111 bus, the IIaI1 aut to IF'J'''

DlUt tell b1a cbout tlUa 0 gant .. tl.o •

Una al.Ge tlIat JOU C 1'8_ ~ t t th1a .t

.PII&laIr said? - - that', all I can re r .

'II t 4111 be 40 at' r tile ,- .. ve tile IIIIlnto

be sat ow .

ens t .. lute and be sa14? - at 4 • 0, 1 VlIZ1t to 1aIaW ,

what d1ll be say? ...

It 18,Q uea 10: • gaT1l the nlII*t

gave t Alut_. IlaZl/a let •

Yos, aod what 4111 a\l418ocB 40' - , a 111 H;PUe nabla •

It 70U dld net agree ",hat tll18

aa1d pmble 7 -- o .

v~ 40 tbaaa people t

vbat tba uPllaller 0 111. t t'. W we aa14 •

b, 1 ua. 1t 18 01117 vbaa ,OU acrea thnt IOU replT

.... hl. • - 1'IIat ' a CQrract .

r,f tbUB two .at1llt:S d11:!craa v1t.b

o tba IIJlII sre' - ot 0 4S •• gre--'. .. tile any 0 tbal' speakei'll apart tl'OIII th1a t

aJlllwr hOlll Jo nne.lIve? - , 11 tlllSlI clot: tba

at • 4111 bit cID tba JllR8t1Ds'l __

h1a debt • 88111 IlA_ letbu, va

Willi t t thaD tba 8nd of it?

of tllll lIISatinl .

70U to14 us t t t re val'8 ,

",.re postad .

• polted . - fbi,

Jlow 111 ,ou leave s pleca t - e lAItt 10 _11

upa' - that tba people 't .a c c _th t'ti: lIIppa La be •

1 an . that 'Vall a CllDlOllrla • •

- 15 -apart m~ t t. .

of the ace re pre_enU - rea, I 11 •

t n w will Gay tbat was tba t at1l1& 10n at ad • Olll" vorahip, I we r U it 111 -1I1 at 11

to r t!l8118 met! ror reo rd purpose I beCll1=

I bun an in betwen lilt t1l1&, tbat 111 !:etwen Ute first

"coad that th1a w1wu 111 IIOV t st1ty1 • ut, r bave •

o l18at1.na 1D regal'll to v loh the ot r wi sse. "ill

t .. tstr. 1 vcadsr U va 0 tIld 1'8-n r tbllp _tin

so lUI to co1no1da with t other wit 868 . 0, to zoe-

nu::nbilr 1t t lir8t O!ll1 tllat lie atte,!l/IlIG wtlld lie the f1rst

t1D, and tile

10 t tl11rd

coad .t th1a wltnees attended, in fact,

at1.na 10 connect ton with tile • ra., but it in tact tbe .acond 1I00t atteaded b7

tbe v1tnes •

I And then tile ="'" 0lIII that th1a w1 as in

taot attew!aCl, wolll.1 hen he the tolll"th r.eet1Dll al tar aa

t avid.nco GOGS. \iotil.d t t be poulbla , aut

: tes.

I Go )'ou attend. thls OthOr .et1nl\' - I 14 .

0, to ld8nt1t)' t .at1oI:, who nd~ .se th1s 1118 tSllgt

• e tnt a, be ad sse t~ at1n&.

.. t1nl\? - At r.w. Fo Stad llllR in tile

re W I th1a

nt - About tbe mld la ot tbe rear 1D 1952.

t t1.l:ll of the cla" _ Dur'in." t • !ling at a t

8 o'clOck tbe .at1o, starts •

rbIt cl or the weak? - I den't k • It v II

tlla all ot tbe k.

d14 yon go to t lIItetlq? -- MltutG aad

'l7 I/84IM) lind VUCBIB to houa •

1IIt • 2' at live us the

r . - cusaCl • 2 .

- 16 - I CC!J •

peat • t plilsa. - lilt til.

etDt. - • ••

F I' V t pon 414 t Y a tatc 7OU' _ 'I

14 t. tell •• but at the et.lng I VIIS to14 tllat tbllse

.an c to to stell III, t t J: 414 not .ttil II

b _Ung. !h:lt.'. wbJ they came to lID •

the, tc a 7C aD4 wbere 14 ,OD co? -- 01'4

1zocctly to t rub?- vent trora to bea pI .

1117 - I bem btutu tall t sa otber II who I'll

w1th b1II 1 t ,,-aU at the. P tor IiPI:8 .

? -- pp Upe.

41.d 7CD collect ople 011 rou tbI shop? _ •

&0 4114 llgap Iallpa t II u? - turna4 up .

And vIlGre 414)'0 t.hen Co at l' t tf -- We went to t .. t ~ 1n the hush at t

1'8 tbera 0111 other people t.bere when 10u arrived

t Nt - o. 1, 80C d o. It :118 tllllft .

tis tile oa.1y two ot t M4 woo ve t 1'8 aDd

•

40 you II saY t. t at th1a .at 01117 ace 8C

• 1 and It were tbere'

I ,blat • 2 vas In 1& Ompatll. _ • ...

• 2 w.a a1rea47 in h1a •

.m~~tml nccuaed o. I, 2 an" I, atteD4e t is satVI 11

- Yoa.

I 1a th1s penoll,you asl, Ifa 1lf:8? -- .1Ia!a,

lIabaae.

r IIIaZIY peo • veN tllare Illt.o t 1" -

3 01' 35'.

An W

-.tl • 1 bad a tev C1! • at t .Un .

all

- 17 - i. t •

self, \I t? T - •

caiYo cuts? - Cut at 11111 ,t1n .

, 11 nov t: alp • usee,

• - t our riyal at .11! •

II , • 1ae4 4 r1 ~ a

atl! by ,a1

tlla aud1 "-caT -- 1''» 8U 1. Npl1a4

.., t fI C<r.Il • os? - n

<}aba .

14

captains .t rill 1IIG wllO or hlil" bort did n t

atton4 at t ."tln .

lIleet • I!a)' I • tAl' t va tblra phase' t18

• c "tRin? - 'It V81 )II lea r or the • "' t re an)' capt lUI 1n t 18 ero t t 100 10 d

• -- n., t • also a capta • a,)'o .. e QOV 1 ... 48vlllt1o.( I ' m arraid . I'll bave

t do tbat to tollOlO t 1a u • be vare 10U ol.et~ &I

ea r what c~t2IDShncall? - I vas = Q as

captain t Oil!! Dr tba lIlIIat!.:. :..J.~ I at en4ed.

"ere not pre ao U -- )' renot

• present at tllat ... t

• it •• lIt ot the. c t1 8, ofticlI bo;~H' --

lu .

~o vue &l.cted • c:apta~ . ihat wore tlla .taa

or a oopt&101 -- bCtI IIOst tall tba sk oree" t 1

t liD tlle1 3t ooU'!c:t tile %ask roe vhan t ra 18

• o t~t 18 ,JOU vaN colleet1Ds people 0 'I to t s.

v Willi mea t1n&B. - t 18 co reot .

at thi8 & 1118 Duke ut e qu1raiS ~ tlla pta1llS

VDO U. ",,,.,,,,ra or tbeil" roaps vne who 41 ot ular~

att t tin<;. - That 1& correo •

t of a me tlllc w • this, first of all? -

'fh1lI " s & P. A.C . .. tin •

-¥ /10 .. 0 .81 t t ••

caw t • nl •

_ 18 - I COBS.

a d14 ttle CIIPta in" than eupp17 Duke kllte vlth tha"

_at - Miuto st004 and III 0 11a out till a ot

till paOpl 1 vIlO cUd cot attend tba .ot1ll& •

• t tu 414' - tee. a l1li s vare &lVln? - Jobn Jacobs.

Who 18 John Jacob ? -- t is IQ' 11.

voo alae t - oMph atl, lJmt Myakl.

tea, 8II1body elM' - P1D41le ZIlndanl .

P Un .:and.nl? Tbat t a correct, tOUl' ot 11S.

Yaa? 0 tlllaa varw the name. ttler .nt1one~ . t

l1li l1li4 attar that? - w verw oalle to stan4 111

t at tba au/Ii. nOB .

IIIalI7 ot )'Ou? - ot 11S.

'fo *taod 111 front of the audience . Yea, a.tId tlllln' -

'fbalI.Dake told us tba II bI

111&., that peopla voo

vW be pun1slllld .

already told us tbat .t ._t.DOt 1'IIgular~ .ttend lIIIat1np,

flIen' .. Tban bII 'sa14 .... 8J'II punished each w1th 10

leahG • lIIIISi pull 4CNn oar iranaer •

You t ull down )'OUl' penta' - Our pants, 8, a.tId

we II1I8t 187 cIOIfII flBt 011 'o1J1' a o . And two persons

14 us, 0118 ba14 till III a.tId 0 111].4 t teet .

llakuta caw 11ll tba cuu.

~ outa' - 10 cute.

Noe1'184 10 euta with a 11&ht c

- J t an ord1:lary O:I!Ie .

ADd vllD Val tile tint 0118 to be P 1ahad' - n,

a vlth • •

DBcall£ll rou' ... a CIIPta1n. .. Bee nse I' •• capta1n.

tile aeCOllll ? Do)'O I'll libel" - 1 CA!l'to

ret:ember. I \1 .. tban eress.

1t w • a180 1ntUl. I tab it. - Pa1ntUl.

tba otblr 0 n vaN also pun 1 ""' . - YlIs .

attar- tll.U ordCllll 1 - n vs. clDae , N tald we t to. ut tba 1ocatf.Dn ana

- 19 - • cru1 J*lplA .

what? areo punlsbmllllt or what? -- 0 loin

~ orconis.t1DD.

bo told 7011 tbat? - Dw Makuta told us .

AlI4 4 JOt! tben duperaa? -- meatinll va t'Jall

clo .. .

? --t.ball we repUe4 ltItllaIXl .

Tell _, 41d )'OIl abO say Ibblaba? -- I acS4 Ibblaba .

DS4 fOu acrea with bis pl1llU_nU - I a a4 wltb

tllU iebmllnt .

t 111 vere JOt! croaa tben? -- cause 1t vas vary

pa1Dta1 at tbat time.

au varen't otta~ beCIl

otta 4 at the pun1a nt . -- causa it vaa BOre, nn4

adda. ba Ia.r- tbat vall the richt tbinC too.

, Ye, tba vltll8lS acree. . D14 .roupb at1

at tllU ... tine? -- Yea, vas t re, II1a VIlI

callad.

kit -- res, ba thoN, IlU VIII

cal.lacl .

iovard l' -- Ye •

D14 70U atta al\7 oUler _et1l1g8, apart fro thiB 0l1li,

where 8lI)' r be aO_!IIe p1'8aant? -- •

11, apin deal1nj: with tll1l :lout meat1n4 at,tanh4,

vare tbeN 8D1 a:wlrd. pGlIta tbere? -- iel .

For tID • purpoaa? -- For the II purpose .

at BII7 ot these at1llta tbat you attend d, vare

8lI)' 80 BWlC? -- Un t)d meetin; that II bald on t

va. tile speaker' -- be cus.t Bpe' ..... lr

•

t Dl4 t!Jan lie t tbird ... tllll. rei, VIlat IUd

fOU 81Dc' - chanp 11811 I1eEVQ Lotlm 1t , •

.. 20 - ~ .• _ I we 81'8 t1&/1 1111 tor ur eountl7.

AD4 wIlDt about alla _~011 , -

n ,ono 8a utuna ""011.

Se utuna _~oU - ts 801418". I ' 10

• - Iva uka4

t .

ADd vbllre v II hi at tbe tim.1 -

tllet tilDa .

w 1D. ~a11 t

WIlD ta4 1D. b1s plAce' bo va. tile act1n& la ar,

III act1lll p1'8l1denU - I aol7 lmw tbe kal ( • . )

lit 1117' be 18 .wt1lIg up tile . 8 only tho

or~.

vlIere Val Peta , - 1 on't Iaaov it lie vo 10

!Ioc at th:lt tim..

I'll Val tII8 ba Off1ce ot tba P. A. t' . It the t1cB?

- tie vue aot tolA .lOra tba lie otttc. VIII •

.seaHa, with this puahb:Dgat . ra ~ or ~be ..

tbreatallll4 to .t

- tor we vera pllll1llba4, then tile au41e vas toM lDOk,

it you dOtl't .ttend lobe otlDn', you vm alao be be •

Ye', t batOl'8 you were pUlllabe . As you collleta«

u. .. poo»le to It tend "8t'"P. d14 JOu threaten t ?-

• Were I1lI.1 ot tbe accusad tbreateDe4 10 JOW prase

8IJ3 per on wbataoeTOr'l - 110 .

At I1lI.1 ot tile 11881;111&8 vh1cb you attende4 p 10:0

1D18ttn • had punl, at ea _ted out there to anyone VbD

attendadt - Onl.11t va. 8&1<1, it you don' t .tten4 tbe

_tinll" you will be punllIho •

Yea, but tile q 1It10 111 ft. pf\y.1c 1 pUll1ahlleJlt in-

tUcted, that', V t I Vallt to 1m • - •

a tbot tba aol7 cecU1oo, on tbe cee doo v you

and ~atl lind .. -- Yes, vbIIn tbe f, or 'lIS ¥l1'9 P1I!lfahed.

that' tile onl,y occaal0 •

aU. - Yes .

- I2.l - • •

ifElac !hi 0 ~eQta ot t h1a orCIl!11aa-

t n "" r utll Africa. - Co ct.

klll the hrOpoallS' - ~ s .

fu t advanta of t GG ad people - Co ct. Iou ,,-ere responsibla ott1ca bearer of th1a orgaaSat1oll

to tile ut. t tllat you vue made CUlPta1n -ct t 1'a l'orce .

- CorNe .

011'108 1]1 tile _lIIll1 rl or t 1'ask 101'08 wore the

solel1l1l's ot the rgaa1aatio . _ Ye .

ere 10u quite preP!!%'lld to t part 1n ow tlIl'ow

till <Iowl' t ot th1s COWlt17' - I vas reparod .

You re quito red to kill as 111 a. wu

DIICQ' Dry tor th1. JIVPO • - Corree .

You W1'1I II deaperate 1Iall . - I v 8.

Are you aWl spel'ete tod." - 0, I've e 4 IV

• aU, what ~penGd t you .1101114 ebalJ<l/l JOur m1D/l?

- I that th1a ol'gell1aat1nc v • de mr .

-- ca ot ot p18 vore ans8 d. aDd

allOt r • thaT 4Sd th1s, 11' JOt! ao ' t want to ~01n th1a

organSsut1oll or apoea v1 tlon. t.'-7 b •

t vas r'J 1r pelle)' . - Yea .

!bat vas cont1nucnsl;r tbrolln at JOur ad8 at tt.

et1D&li. - 0. IlQt that .... a.re to be pun1ll •

U at uy lllre that t rence doos not apellk proper17

1nto the II1CrOp • I put 4wa vIlat I ar - v!l1ch II1II7

IIOt be quite the s_ as h1a que.t1on).

be dSd you get this bolD, 701ll' into t1nc t you

va 14 be pl1!l1ahsd' - to1 U3 et1nl: t'-1: we

vould be pl1!l1a •

• 1t a _at1nl: atte d., tbe .;. .. 'I _ tv 8

a prnlous ._t . ?hi. cUAd dSd t. lid tlIat .,tina.

vue't t t he14 CVGl' your bead at awry lIIIIat1ft.::?

- •

, , - 22 - •

But v d It ¥om JOU 110 ~-," t t)'O

told tbat you would be plm1a d? - It

WileD 1 vas pun1a • Aail a1'terwUNS, aftor I sat down

tMn I NaUsed that tMl had OQD t rIght thlng to pun1ah

.. bocallSO I 4id. Dot perlo lIlY dutllls .

D wIlY Vltre )'DU tbell dlas t:l.atlad vith tba F •••

Orpnhation? - I vas DOt d1aaaUat1od wlth tile . l.C.

oreanla.tto • oalT thing 18 it vas "17 pal.llf'Ul I

palll at'ter I 'as punlalled.

y .. , but)'O said. oorUsr that )'011 Vllre d1s1lllllltoOld

wIth P.A.C. bae u .. 7011'<1 • - Ii t I 1IIIid.

v a that I lost lIIterest beeallse l'd .... n that lots or

arreats boall made .

o all that was vron wlt t!l1a orllliliatto YIIS th:lt

Jot vas 1IlIIrrecUve. - rou.

, it onot r oromla.t1o 'las e that VIIS re

pJ'Otle1entlJ' 1'l1li, wolJl4 be PNPlI1'8 to ~olll It? - I

w111 JlQ1I'8r ~01ll an orcanisatton l.J.b t t aplll .

Ka7 I aalI: yIlT' -- or course 1 aee DOW, 1 baw t., rreedClll 111 t way 1'. Uving lIOV.

t 111 tile Va)" 7OI!'re Uving durn.Dt tl'OII tbe

way 111 yb1cb JOU"'1'8 l1v1llC botoN 1011 became 1IIvolve<l wIth

. A •• ? - !tIere 18 tlO 4itt.rence . I t Jl8QP~

told lID bout th1a P. A.C. OZ'l:I1owt1o.D II.IId so I tlID1I& t

IIIYseU, vell, tb1s 18 a1lo a good thlng to t tree •

1I't. JOU 1nternta4 111 tile tr .401:1 or 70ur peopla'

- :rea, I yaa lIItareste •

Are 70u no longer lIIteresl;Qd 111 t tree or ywr

peop~? - •

Ilav 414 10 )'OlII'8IIlt ecb1llve t'roodom' - As I VIUI

18 1014, I too It t t Va)", that VII lila opU are £0111&

to "1 tbe count.17 an4 .. aN co1llll to be OWl' tile to

paop~ all tbase tI\1Q::u ,,111 bel to •

ADd d tile t • balons to 1011 to4q and aN 1011 over

t te people? - •

- 23 - • So '- do JOu see rr.edom for lOU1'aelt? -- • ~

II I aN open • I can I tbat that VIl7 tbey wanta4

ach1a'n It, VIII VII')' de US .

t JOu ve cot Jour rr.e , hawn't 7OU' -- •

V8 70U an COll1'lcto :v.tt -- In thlD c sa'

h . -

Did JO

JOU.' be, t

• t 1t JOW' evidence 1s not

tbe inA III11tJ wl11 be Vltlld1'SVD .

atllt atel')'.

-- 1 bIaw dter I Jmw eivan ev once . I C/ltl alsO be coav1cta •

ow 118 captain 1t Y3S JOW' task to .... tlIat 118 ra

QUill' , -- •

wbet w • your tunctloQ to report U. n-atto/l4/1tlCG or

.. ra at 8t1ll&3' -- Correct .

AII4 70U 1181'11 to~ t t it JDe 1'8 d1l! not attond _t-

• tbe7 wUl be pU:11 • - I kIIev t •

4Jl4 I It that bars or the orC8!llaat1o Imev

t t . --!bill kn8v t. •

rua VIlli a Urror1.t orew atio , v an' t It 7 --

I van't. 881 IIC .

sot, - c.

A vlolent orI:8D Ssat1011 in all event . -- Correct .

I tam It t t you hat at'raid that

111& t cat into trouble 11' lOU d1dD ' t tell a Uo . -

It wna MV8r put to us thiit wa)'. lt we dOll ' t 40 OW' work

proporl,y that w. would be pun18 •

t it VIl. WI arat006 at all events that when tbe cap-

tain c .. to call peoplo to the lIIlIotlDl. tbey ha to e •

-- C01'1'Qot .

ow, I must. q.y t. t. thars 1. 110II1II d1aputa b woan WI

5 to wbetber 700 real17 IIr\4V lobe a cu.. . I wilt to tall

JO tllet it wUl be the renee cue that tbel did ct

atta IIll1 or tbeae .et1Dl:8 that you apo about or

•

oUlar .at!ncs. - I vlll 8117 tbey attended tiles. maat1Di;ll .

ccord1n& to a cutad p, 1 lPU VOl

three IlOtltba last year at lobe Sout &h1can Spr1ng ru.

•

~Iu.a t . - 1 1 Ba1 tor 7 or 8 fit t

s.. P1'1Il& orks.

You vor!te4 on a n1 abUt baa1s. didn't Jou. at that

ts.. ce 1IOl'ked on a 4a1 bitt baliE. - fore

I va. on tile da7 slUtt and attcr • tev mont I worked tbare.

I v.a on tllII n4bt abUt.

AlII! aceD :s o. 1 vUl II., that be didn't IOU

batoN ,von atarted to worlt topthcr l .. t J8Rr . Accll.lOc1 wUl

tbat c11dn 't la10w • - I ko8w eccuaec1 • 1

betore I vallt to work at •• pr~ •

cased • 2 wUl lay that be saw lOu tor the tuat

t1llll on the da1 or h1s arNat 8t lIi'-r Poll Cells . -

t U DOt ao .

Accuse 0 . 3 w111 Ba1 that bad beND ;ron 0IIl.r a1Ace

1963. -

berora 1963.

• that 1& not IIC . I' w known !l1a Q 1on;: t1lle

l81a t t ba .. t 7I1U 8t a t4/1t whioh JOI.I with

his trlAlnd. aps 1m . - 1 rought with pa 1& .

a tbet DOt 1n 1963? -- I think that "as 1n 1962.

You can' t 4a~ that U E1 lis.,. be 1n 1963? - I

't n:r .110 .

eensed v1U aa:r t t attar 70ur t1ibt wUh &8&

Bala. J'OU 1ll'T1.,.d at b1s bo11S8 t t n1pt with a IlIImber ot

o r people and 70U t t with b1ll - lobe a !ISO -

two otbar pe plD. - t is 10 ac .

rou a~ that 70U a tig t that a1&ht with tr s

ot JO • l1li4 ace l1li4 .and two ot bll trill r -1& t 80.

• that

a

eeuse4 • 4 V111 &111 t t be • kIIO'ii!l 10 tor onll

- t ccrreot.

VIIN 10U brouv t up from Port baboth 'tor tb1s

7 - re • N :ron brought up to t with J. Jacoba' _ Yea.

ki. • 10111 h atU_ • .,. 1011 ,people disouSsed tb.1:l case r _

.118 't

- 25' - nco . taD: wUh Il8 anothU' a t tbl8 casa .

this Nlact - 0 don't tl'Ullt )'Our Illata.

tb.a •

lI't)'D r1Dd ona DOtb.\lr trustvortb7? - • at

~Ill" t1lDl .

JlI1l not rr1luld17 wlt eAch othOl'? - I'. flo

wlth tb.u. t I 4011 ' t tl'Wlt too • va ,you .taya totother with t

arrlval? -- Xes.

t )'Oil lID retlrec any of JOU. ""'JUt t!I.J.a case

111 'IIh1ch )'Dll'reI aU appe 10& toda)'? - I 414 t apeak to

01' the abo t t.h1a caH.

- fbll e

l8la ot th18 sort VB,you ,ivan .... 1d8nca.,

Ollfl t.o4al. Abo t bow 014 )'Dll' - 20 1 UI.

Iou to14 WI. tb.1a 10 .1ap17 ••• _ttar of 1I1taNst.

that altllC 10U wre told that the raMp fee va. 25'

cta, e.nd ,you bad to.p , re. to bee a IIfIml>er. :VOI1

1d!1' t P87 it . wa. th1a' - On hat 4.,. I bad DO

motI81·· I Just to14 t I h34 no -, to pay 0 tbat 4111.

1)14 ,you pay at a lattr BtaCO? _

lou IIfIVllr JNl14 '1 - Ravlr pa14.

•

1dn' t tbe1 1Ik)'O to pay? - IIobody spcb to

about this ,.

I'. 4ea11n& abollt tb.a rhst .et1og. You &111 J.t vas.

perhaps )'Ou cou14 teU us _tll1ll& about tb1s Jill ord

S 1. D14 tbe 8et1Dp take jllaee in tbll Stad1um? _

• 111 tbe d1rtcUon of &ra Ford t 41 there are busheD

no tbe Stad1a and tha .8t1D,. were b1114 in tbe.a hUS"' .

far the Manat pollee atation wOU14 )'Ou aq

t t ns' - I wou1 .. , be .I.e tOIl Pollia Statio ,

111 tbe Marast.

SG.iZ:IIl ne. vaU bow rar would 70u a.,. that :is 1'8Il10 d

ho= tb.a tadJWI" - It in less t • 111111.

- 2$ -

.K4. ..... J.l::liI' tar V • lbe atine beld fro the s.are

1M ~ use4 tootpath? - No. t 1'0 is a dis:WlCa aV1l7.

eU, what 41st n , -- It 1&. 1& ca. tb8 tlog8

".:re hald rIght 10 t ~ntre or tha has .

eU, glve UlI the d1st CG . CUI 1lIll poin lt Ollt?

- About troo bare to t bospit •

S; WTI Abo t halt • alla.

J<:;:llil~' I taka lt t t JOu ware quite prepaNd to

at taod fust 11188tlo , WheN you. ted 1lIll the tbrn

accused, 1lIll 1'8 quite "UHng. - I was .

You wren' t threate d or forced to • - 110. I \lent

en ., ow.

JOU coUsate the accuaod 1, 2 Ii. - Correct.

mall)" or JOII vent to tl:a _ t1nl;. lett topt.hGr to

the r4 Stadla troa accWI84 • It '. IleuM' - J: bt

altopth8r.

~~I 11& t of YOIl went to tbe bo ott - 11

,tina:. us lett tile bow:e or ccused o. It. to the

s t a, JOu 14 us. JOu stopped .t t B. ps

oa tile 11)', vhere you valted tor ot r . - Correct .

Bu 110 0101101'8 O3lllB . -- 0 otllllr8 C!1lDG to ua .

n't it c281l£8 0 tor as -a.r as 8 peo.,l.0 to be 8"

v !kina: dovn the .tre.t to tiler on t \;8~ to t.h1a t1II&7

- d1dn' t valk in 0 cr0v4, we valked 2 tj' " •

8epcrated J wbat d1Jtance? - llbov II t 3 - .. p:H:O • •

pantont _ utu VIIS II¥

AII4 1lIll able to w 1nd1catl what pol1t1On

10 the earavan aooused • 2 took lip? _ I took DO ot •

I can't IIQ.

• 1( it a

oAllt JI.1&ht? -- 1

I taka lt t

a~' t ra 1'.

na8OD., tile 11' S a1vays tlla r1at ct 1. b7

J - 27 - &1.:.><=' 11cto Ol' :IJ1tervvnttml b;r non_ bere. - nat 15 conaot.

\'<Il~n' t 1t II II riaI!;J t in!: tor !IY POI' n lit

toot 10U ben • n. U IIl)t to ". t salutl

t,," tbI ral . It the IIHt1n&

•• opeaad, tbeo ealutl 8 '87 n.bJ& •

bll' ot thR. !lneo a I 1t t t .... o u not :IJ1 8 nt vith t vas aald, 1t vo Id bave boen

rllQ tb1nc to taU to g1ft tbl ulut , ba'l - I

can't 887 oa 'lObed;, taUa to gift tbe .. lute.

aay nobod;r t.Ued . - give tbe adatl .

~ _an 70U sav. You c 't •• ,. wbat a:tJ:I )' ta118d

to &1'" tba .alu . - .ot v t r II •

I' .n 70 Itl10w ptople present et t S ot ,.t t 811 var1ou.s at t roll spoks II ut, could

r.118 to 81'" tba salutQ . - It CIlIl be .

414 roll lano tll1a t1l"llt .. t1ng wbere JOll Sir"

aco • 1, 2 and It, - a don't 18aft t 1:1118t1l1l: aU

.t one . We ~ out in 8 1~ pIS.

no 4ld 10u 1e '" w1th' -- lie,,,..,,..,

1a11pn, .collOld 1, 2. ~ .

ovo, Ilea

Dld Y01I adopt t BIIlII8 proeocl in inC 0lIID. VIIlk

10 two., - • Dot :IJ1 £OUlI: '-, we did not o:lJ1 twos,

va WI t in 11 gro Ja because it s 15 tI d 1 t vas del' •

1.

an't 1t dar: wb1lst ;rou wre mak1D rour y tova1'll8

a 0 , - 110, it vas not .s d8J'k a. the t1a wben we

• t it vas darlrt - It VIlli dan.

ow 1t .... U III! tbat tbe third IIUt:lJ1g, which vID

be t.be GlOOM at1ll8 that 10 saT:ron e aceused • 1, 2

~, it vas • l'.t I' elan roua11 l!l'N!l&Qd lmaUn , " Sl! ' t

Itt 1l1li tMa t1n& d14 t ke place, :ron told u •

:IJ1 tbo C:lyt • - rn. Xc tell t t as Il¥ o. 5 or 60 peop ottoacle4

tAle •• tiDS l:9twe.n 10. 30 and 11 0 ' elOC 1 tbo 1"l11Dl:.

- a.

- 2S - lAC .•

irioN .putleW!" precaut10na talaln 111 law 01' till

t ct t this ... t1oC V s to talal plilce in till a,? _

TIle B vere poatad tboy to an4 maIat reporta

to t!ll apea r.

Ire t re IIDre rds po.tlll then U.Il4l? - I 004't

• 1 cl1d ot count till luaNa, becausa here 15 !'lOt one

eD.tr411 to vbere tha II:e t1nl~ re 11814 111 tbo busba •

t!»re are Clulta a t.w road. lelld1l1r: to t t place .

Icu aerea w1tll t t 1t v ... a rat!»r rlllky tb10 to

bave thi. I114l1t1ng 111 tba open tbere . _ It vas risky.

I 11; tll.3t on t~ daY YOIl collecta4 till t e

accuae 7 - 14 •

av, I cton't q Ita rBl.,aber v thlr 111 relatton to

t .cood. lDIlet1ng at wti1ch yoa uv tbo accuse , IIl11tb£r ;vou

sta"ped at tbe ahcps on the v to tba tad1am or ,,!lather

fO nt 8tra1&llt on. _ vent to t sbops val f KAl1pa b8 •

110 CIllI8? - to cua . iCY 111 ".peat ot tbe thir4 .. tine at vhicb yoa B!IW

"till a CCWIII • which liD be t tOll1't .. t . ,YOIl to14

as, dU you rlter any sort ot rea1atancc to tbla pun1a nt

t t you" re ta undcl'l:ot - rea1atenca .

\i;n,y not\' -- Bee Ilse vba I Jo1aa this orcan1aatio ,

I letwd IJJ1 hc.DO UlldGr tba tbrae t B .

r thl three 'a? - Ye •

" t IU'8 till three 'a7 - atter, llacr1f1ca and

• "10 •

'mI!!~.r Which particular ClItaCOI"1 41d tb1a 0 t10n

tall? II VilJ'8 yoa 4lI1I1 t t are you autter1nr.,

l13Cr1flcin& or ... "14&7 - 1 111 I a eacr1t •

o TO 117 W a aacr1tloe'l ••

w. 8 be.A ~1Utl7 " 111 eD.1 sa • IIIaka

- 29 -IIIIcr1t1ee' - !as, tbat a a c U'1ea .

C It I qpo G cr1tlco 11 lIB ' . co=ror •

...... .:JoI.llI.Ol l JOU • 2-d that 1'u ore cro:l . --

II1II 1'Os, 1 414 Il'.)t to b1nlt t :0 te pllft18l1a 111 t t

a •

-In" t

1 cl:o

tou W1'&

70U vue loint; to be Wliabl'

1'4 onl7 NC iva about li cut •

~ibwlln about the it 1 rive' -

Cor ct.

t made )'Ou t,'rltlk of t r~ tiVQ & the amnIbI!r

or c ts )'OU :91'8 1~11 to 1"1 ivo? -- I thoug

'Ii :1Cb 1 de tlla aa.u';e dtll, I thout; t I vould raeel,..

1'01' aac t1npr, II cut .

014 10 II8VC UI1 1e la1' n 10 tor thlak1ng t t

,ou' 4 rttcaiva o!lly li cutst - ° t1eUl r l'Gllaoa. 1

OW t t th:tt li cuts 14 be 8a",~ ...

ow you haw 8X to \lS that a captain Vall 8

lAI 81' or tho! teak For • - Correct .

I 1t tile capta1A' " nty to t u tbll \'ask ore vbat

t»,. II!I1&t 40? - COrrect.

ihat ul4 bappcn 8 !lG1~r taU d to oteT 1nStNe-

t1Qns nn by the captn18? -- You :ust 11:0

nport to tbll c!l1llt ~p ail! .

..,,,,,, a

A~ thin? - ur J'01J .. de a ,report, to tile cl11at

capta18 that this person doe . ' t nt to attend a

t tlla c r c p1818 DlSa so. people to co 8

•

t1l1C.

t toh

And t 7 _! the chler capta18 w111 a • w~

In't !III vant to att a4 the tin.. . It he ivaD oOJ'

re sons, tha~ tile c!lef capta1A would toll hia once )'Ou

are 0 IE r ot t a 01'l?n1lIation, you aN 81Wll3'S a I:l/!lI!bor

ot tUie organl s3tlO-.

tile 7 -- • pgrsou 18 onl1 warna.!

It tt:1s bal'll8llS a seCOnd t1M' - I don I •

- 30 -1 it happen a .. ce to •

111 you a He \l1t 118 t t it 18 tair to all pose t t

t. .. v la qatos voulC. U people 0

not p i -- till it 13 correct, U" yo Join 111

"r..1aatlO!l tban tllal tba threa 'a to 10U and 70U

bava to p t yOIU' ball 011

I II are to14 Lila t 11' 1011 d14Il' t obe}' tile.,

t , bell tbare ~ul4 be clUtlOult7' - Correct.

'" on he wll1 to tbll third ... t1o, at which }'ou lIaw

t IIccased, which va call the tourt .aUDI, tile 0 at

v oich 1 U re =15 d, hat 18, 14},0 adopt tte pr0ce4ura

or wal.k1.a& two Il7 tvo "beD ,010 ort to the ICita Ford Stad1

h1 - 0, I, sav ... and tutu vaN walk It eel

t:lll otberll were tol1ov1nj; \:s •

• be others to ethar? - I dOD' t • I d14 not 10

•

An.. atter laav1ng th1a aot101. d )'Ou walk? -

,yCGlf, tutu and &8£11 /tallpa lett the _atin,.

a. that all? -- - Jlp" 1III11pa. Ktutu, lII1.slt.

l.lIlut "k1.

t ant to,put it tl) IOU r1&1'17 t t lilare 1& no truth

10 t ctol'1 .ac I u've to14 WI. - I aa)' 1 told t1l8

Ccurt the trIlt •

14 ace. o. 2 at r tile l18et1n&S 111

ro pre IlC8 - :reI, aQ'CUl!Gd attend d aU tbl Bt1nj;1I

tlla t I h.TR 1II8roUOII8 •

• 27 - •

J)o I uIld"l'8ta11d poa1tioll corract17. tMt one or

till aceaaa cUd not alta all}' or the _t 2 • 3'

COlalld • o. 3 as I wxleratQod h1a .,,140 • ,,;&' .1 Do . 3 .tteDd 0

• 3 14 t a.tend Il!I7 or

~~~~~~~~~,

.'1t,:lU~loOUlCO to t ali t11'. r

t •

10 Be h

. . - !l - •

salutll1' - • 60 do 't )'OU know t t. 1 represent U. S a and

ob3 eta? - I Vila told fl'Olll Capc to Cairot Gballll b .. I' •

111 SIlla be can't re... tbelll aU .

0t )'Ou are II1.Itaklln, 111 lIllY a nt, IN ' 11 :tor t ut

hat tun . It 18 Cape to Cairo, rocco to apaCU'.

80 you're aU Vl'OlI4, JOU .. e. t 111 lIllY evant, apin

aUni wUh tlla 88lute, JOU to14 II\}' laa:rne4 tr1eDS that it was pcssible that paopla 9N nt at tbeea .at1ll,a c ul4

haft 1'a118d to liYII tlla • luta artar tlla speac a Dn4 to

.., Mblaba . -- I 414n't _ ~118 Wbo !'a1184 to C1ve

t!le I14luta.

fila peopla )'Ou could "., aU can tlla aalute and tlla),

aU a814 Qallllaba . - Y ...

Did JOu eTar !lear bodl d1&a a1nll or vo1clng

oblectiGn. or whataoanr t aay of tllaae .et tbat ,ou

attaDded? - •

!eU tbe witness tbat tlla qWl8tlon of h1a 1ndallll11t,

vUl be caae 1ato vllat! too State cue 18 over, or pez-bapa

I abO 14 aay at aDd 01' tbe trW. •

I \I app11cat.1on to reoall

tile wltDasl, "ncob •

t I lie tbe publ1 t1cn of

IlI1ies, adm ... s and a lDJmOnt Of acco!l!Oll1cu called

U. Stat\! u VUllO •• •

&:<l~' It is • 1'alr application b,y U. l'I'Osaoutor and it

lias bGen raco 84 tbat S 01' too .. w1tDasSlII who haw

ta.Uf1ed 1'01' tlla tata h!Iva beaa IUblecta to prasaure

otmr sro • It 1& 0:111 ot t sons IIh1c Jll'OIIIPt _ to

.., t t U 18 in tlla 1n at of Juat1ca tbat • and

aMra .... and lIllY 1nf01'lll8tion eoneerlliq tlla ida titr of

a vltDasl, Bhcu14 DOt be d1ac.loaed 1n IIllY"PO •

- 32 -I

~.

• • at1n& at

111&

, )'011 so14 1 .. terda:v -that the rirst

1I.leb 7013 saw three accwsed, ana that was tile

ad4resn b)' !:aU, tack place toward. tile e of the ...... '".

-- CorNct.

Co11ld 7013 he a bit IIIOra specU'1o a. to mora or a

v 10 the walk t!l1s ... tlo, took place? -- If it W&8

not on a Sat 0)' o1£,bt , it t ~ en on II t .

You can ' t scy for aura "hethel" J.t was on a aturda,y?

- I can't aa:v eqctlJ' ov.:1cb dll1, atur41l1 or' , t

it 111 ODe of theM two a)' .

Coul4n ' t it bave bllGo a FrJ4a:v oJ. t? -

a lIIIat1a vas Danr held Qtl a t1at it.

,

01' 0: ao earlier n1£ht or t vaak tlla:l FrJ4I17? _

Yea, _tS-a _et1a~ vera bald 10 the .1ddla of the we •

t th1ll part1culal" 1IIIIat1n& that a ' N t&lk1ol1 aboat,

)'ou say co11ld not ft baOll held 10 tile III14dla of tile ok?

- oOt 10 the m1 410 or tile v.ek .

And not on • fhura4q? - Ro .

the third .. ot1!l& at whlch 70 IIIIV the .,CCI"d,

that 111 tile maet1ll& at v eb)'o vare pWl1abe • 10 7011

aaid that t t llleat1o, t It place towards tile eIId of the

vee.. - Col"ract .

ld)'O be IDCIN Ij;leCit1e about. t DlEbt OD vh1clI

that took P 08'1 - I ' . t tao a • I t'l1nk 1t wea on

• at,1Ir4J11 .

COuldo't :I.t haft be on aa aarUer n1&bt of tho _Itt - - ,

lob)' 0 ¥CIa £8)' tbaU - e uae "'.lIIn thO ae

08l11li there to retch .. lit house. on 0Ill" VOT tile .... ,

IIIIV tile people _Sag out Of tllll to.cope • •

opla

I

re bioacopea beld 001)' on at,1mIlaY lUl;bta t _

10 tile aJ.I!Gla of tile waall: too, b1occopaa 81't ,

d 10U -I}' 1 13 lie IOU I. fro loacopas, it co a't ba been Qtl an 8 l'l1ar a t

,

- 33 - It

alt t n SatlU'llay'l - 1 lulov it VIIS on a Sa 8Y.

beC81lM I paid t day before, on the hid." I t mJ !l&T.

~~, .Warns witne •• as a compllca . - I • , • bow old n. JOU. tirst l' all? -

21 ,Yaan.

:bare 414 1011 lltay ur1n& 1962. tile II1nn1n& CIt 196 ,

- 3~, Coll!lickllr tro t, v 1&ntCD LOcatlc::.

And Vhat u. your quaUt1cat1ou. Y >till t -- I

...,. _ .. d tel . S.

I want to taka )'OU back 0 tllo lIIIelonS nt: ~ 196 ...

o I want to 4eal with tbe dUrerent aoc:nsa . You 11011

tblly eft red 1 to It. jjC) W JOu reter to t acc d.

pI .... make use 01' the n I'll I wa t to deal with tlJ&lI

separately. you &8a? Did yo know BCCUNd o. 1 1.0 1\162,

- I knew accused 1.

eu - Gideon lleconp.

Any otbor _at D1d 70U

n1Ckna .... tor 1nntanca? -- I only j[!lj:J1oi

01' Gideo •

N d1d be ,tar dur1n& 19627 --

1&lIton LOcnt1c •

tar 18 t1.lIQ treat rl"C1!:l Coan1car mat? -

ut 3 at!' eta ~.

u-at.

fOIl. 01' c 0Ul'tIe. can pol.ot out till boua' - Ie .

nr how 10 • 1. that 1&

nov prJ.or to 1962. - &I'W \opther.

In the locatioll?- playa to t r. ,a&:bla •

• - orNe .

' :J •

- )It - lmln· AIId wbe did 101: work to&e I' _ x..t 18"1'

about uaust . tnt ,ear, tbat is 1961t? -- re .

i) priOr to 1962, J'01l did t worlt to thIIrt -- ra., oo~ tnev one anoth r, 8 ,"V up tollllt •

'l:llell accused • 2, ° fOil MOV ? -- 1

h1II bJ 1.111 lI8ID8 of Oubew, I 40n I t !lOW bis atlrlldlll .

o you ICnOW hill bJ IlO7 otlllr st -- I OQ't •

014 10U kIICnI "'bare III vas llvinC at the tiM? - I .

re' - 14011'10

IlB U d in .Tabawu treet,

po1l1t ott:. hoUA.

nu:nl;er of tOIl bouse. t

11hton Locllt.ion . 1 c

I' how 100 baCl JOU

A ~on t1ate .

n &CCWlB4 • 2 ill 1962 t - -

!DV lont would JOU eat tel, - I I1'8V op b tore

accu.. lo . Lt.

De apprax1mate17 11 J0Ul' 114:9? - 0, be 1a Older

than I 8 •

ov bolt coma tbat JOU IIccoaed . 27 wbeo

I 1181 t'lat I "L'l dl4 foe, fol' 1IlI~, II J I va expla1nltd

~ust nov, rkad topt r or did J0D. 1nlt to ther or Yia1

t &1rlrr1Aln-' I' IlO7tll1ns like that? -- ra

to .1ober 1I000001olllU tld'ore 1962.

I, 10 10 tile 0017 1l1c1liIInt? -- I kna h1II

d:rinkln, places and r:ro DO~t II .

The • 3, de! fOU ov , - Ilmow

• 3 &II vtI C:l'aw up teth r .

I/IiIIt 11 111 WilDa? - Zenio,! "1lIU"tboo1 "'U'1CII .

I.n:! otMr II? - I D:1l7 .. D&DI8G .

vlllre 111 be at81 10 19621 - Fal'llllson lie •

v llrJ.ch.o!l LocatiO •

° JO 10 ill! QIIJlI!:Gl~ f - I em't tIlI:'N the nomw.

but 1; t O1It 10l1li IlD • For tIDw lon tben bad f 0 knclWll aocused. • 37 t

81ga1n, )OU •• a? - to to •

- j~ - mAn· lad to t r, pla11ld dice topt.hllr, we no II ae

to tbu.

t t is wilt .ay IWI, because or

- f t 18 corNct, D' at •

theo ClCUSO o. It, - I IaIow cuaa4 o. • up toga ther aoIl vor~ to the .

IUs IIIl!lI!I rUst or aU' -- .Justice co • blow Il1a by the II4IIID or r.T too .

ot.her QUIllS' - • ru. - Yaa .

I

I<bere dill ba 8tll1 10 1962, - 1IIIkn stre t, • 11,

1tlltoo Locatioo.

Is • It related to ll:f Of U. othllr accWlllcl.

- 18 relat d to • cd . 1 .

Are tba7 tn-ot. l'S , .utan, ala.? -- I 't y

whet. I' t.~l bave one tather and OM til 1', t. thel

l1ve toptlllr and the,'" cot Don 8\U'11101111 aDd t1»7 ' " cot

cne bo e .

t JOU dOD't ICDow hOw the~ .re 1"IIlnte., -- I lc;:Ipw

.. crev up to t 1', ac sad 1 and It 11 d to thaI' 111 OM

:e.

ow, bow _ t t ~ . "'? -- I

already told t.: t 'l1cka ot 1- a I!t 3 litre to ay from Conn1cAr tN t . - It 1& a at •

All t a CWIC \/81'8 a t till t1llll l1Y

0: hip? - tes, up

atlll l1v 1Dl> tbera . or our arrest Y N

ow tell lila, is It tbereton corNet ::J lIay tmy W;~

all l1v1n,~ lIIOre or 10811 10 the 8_ are ., - l\ It thI7 call t t place La •

tAre .

orpn1- tlDzl kncml ••

l!IO! I then ;J

~IW abo t

II ttoll

,.." Atr1c !l1 t CozlO'~:;' or o.

1011 to l~, ., - I

00.

) - y - J::UU. t t • orca illltto ?

- Il1'II about !Ja pville Gad ar1 1'10 I .

II, I _, so ),ou ;lUt aUII co or t 1:1

or .watt . - Correct .

Who u relponsib!a tor bar" l11a all~ t 11'totat

-eb1lltwe? -- lIB w a the _10 1B ar or t

o orpn1.atio •

dlU renco be"..,.. l'Oqo a.ad the A.t'rlc n1st

_ ..... '" •• r - 0 dlUeranc •

~. 10 1962. d 14;you v r Joto tllta o~p'~",tlol1? _

I s reC!'U1tecl b:v IICCUted .0 . 3 a.ad 110 10n1 .

o wban dl 70U 30la tills oreanl .t1On" -- 1)' 10

1011. told t t 101l vera Horulta<l .. accusecl •

3 aMY - '1'1.'0581111.. 18111 .

Tvll ue more obou t.'l1o rcuUitin(.

l'tIorutted' - Thor CaD to _ and •• 14 lock. we t not

1 t tba hite people tall our OOllllt1'1 a posse a 0 0.) tl'7.

t vas 10 tile llei1o:<1n. ot 19627 __ ...

acldreased 70"1' ",COQ Gd Ro . 3 or sa 11. loInru:1f

- d • • 3 a4 ... 04 me .

bII aa14 .. _, not let tbR hite op18 take our

countr,? - Correct.

t else cUd he I." - '*' IIIIISt trr and r bt tor

Olll' colllltry .

i be tall 70tl Or i _ him:elt or 414

.1Atora rou' be nJI r'I!IPl'U.llt1nc wll n m a" ro ebe lout

- told II. that tIP Or 1I:.t1o 11 c:allI4 o.

r a •• , 1" ; 10" to be 0,..11 ara be~

--

erm t tileI'll ur1o, his co ta tlo •

teU UI preci.oly

18111, you

tc •

t trans 1ra tv

• , tlle1'

lISt 110 1 t the 0& •• I) 00 try. 0 st t1 t tor

•

) - 37 - • iea, ~4a - ~ 4 111m we 1'1 lit tor

0 c untrl. be tU 14 now be an

wtl r or 1 • :a ttat rather va. B

• etl IIi1 rat w 8 a dat.eUw, I can't Join

t • .tater on t 1 peraus4 .. and thEll

a 1lI to _ and t I Jo1Md thill ol'£llD1Iatlo- .

• v cUd tlla" perllwa 100 - 1 told _ that th1a

o tiD 111 qo, the" a" no lta peop18 10 tl11.

rp.>1s tlo!\, 0AlJ' BlacH peo])l •

'1," tal .. , bclc II 1t 111 va '/ loter .. t1ng, 1011 net

-- mlllt 1'1 t tor ~ c untry.

or'~.1aat1 n? are

10 11. with a lIIbo1'8hlp c I'd or wera )'011 rn lot

J) J01l take au oat.h or be 1I&1oJl5, or hoV 4id it co

abou~ that 1011 act ll¥ Jo1M4? -- )' to ok rq 1I8lIII .

tlc

VlOU it

k your __ ., -- • 3 took c:I 1lAlIIII,

• Your and v t about 10 1\U'IlIIlIIB? - IIamI

aurll4llll IllId It:J ddreu.

where cU4),0 "rita tlI1s? - ba)' ha a j)aper

V.lS a l.UI t or

that list.

ho bad til1ll paper - -ec a • 3.

1<1 tIR taD IlII7 otbclr part1cWrlI from )'CIu' Your

occllpatlon, your nat 10ur aYQlI1&Ilt? -- 0, be only took

IIi1 DUliI alll1 a rell . t other t 1n&s llks vbe I B

8~10)'e nd ~o ~ •

did )'Ou ba • to pa, 6Il¥t. '1n& to become a cber

Dr lh1£ unlavtul or ani.atl0 ,<oqo -- Accused w. 3

ned told IDI I st PII¥ 25 canta .

t va. to 7 -- dial. vas t entrl fet, Jo1nla/:

III •

IJ:IY ot. r !leY 1011 "l1Ipposa4 to pay attar JO

about this 2, centl. then you co aMared )'Ourl.lt a IbUber or 1a or _

- - mu· • - - "O~"ct •

r '1 u. . -- I then t ahDv WT

t re aN 'lY aU • and t y t 1 tba y1ll

l' and fetch .. vba tblra is ... et • I.!kr 70U Joina

t 1 axplolo to 7011 anyt a a ~alut,? TO\! '"", ... n

t J first.a proach!! 1011. on this '1 , 10 eu . - Yalt

t 1 to14 l1li and SOIDS otlier p80pl, p s ad Yb1lo tlllJ "1'8

talkl lth .. and then they laid tllas pilOp1e I1a~

lAItll:l. the)' raW'; tlllir r-l ht IIa with thO pall1 tolrtr:1M

tilly _aid Ilene !.ethll -ban t Be paople pas • , II SCl~ry. 1 1dD' t qllite toUow. - 8&711 y 11.

tbey d this cOllversation co .. paopl. pas-.d tblt I t

and _CCWI d o. 3 and Ilalen1 1'8104 tbeir 1'1, t ~ with

palm f'orvlU'd nnd said Uuva Lethu.

OeJIIO:nstr ta that to us pla8SO. - raiHs b1s

r bt uw;1U.bou er 1&ht vit p 1.11 torw rd aDd t ba

14 n._ IAt • "Dd t .. people who pasn4. repUed

alii! said tbhla •

'lho or l1eZWQ letlru, do JO keo'l? - 'lhe whol.

o a balon 6 to the Uvea.

lid bla ., -- 011 .

ADd did yoIl tban ecq'llln • to this '" t or lI&1ata

t t theae paopla 414" - ,t t II ot sOII8t!l1n,

& tr"1 to .. . tore U.I 0 JIIople a proac d II1II. I

H. 10 tlla str eta ,",opl. ClVlee t!le saluta lle~

lDt I Ir4pt Oll a1G:I ay1n&. 1 a It vae • nev t •

aC4 Qpt 0:1 $ 1ng nu". Lctht: .

t 41.1 you ow tlll maaainr; ot t:::1s. t at !rIC nco

or tbiD IlArE». i.t"t .. u salute? -- It eGell!! to.. !len t se

pao 10 P ... 4 in the It .t"ba o. 3 nl

Ira tlI1It1nc to w tlll~ t aaJ. e t it c

me what tlllt '1188 or hat v

.tt .VllI" lIZ W to

) - 39 - •

• • 1lII 0 tU1:l lu -- It " DOver upla1n8

to • t I' uy1!l t 11 t.1Ie C t Viii :2Tilo47 ;..Q i.e et1nl;a , be eiY S t salute Ut&liC lGtba,

• we at up ~ • •

e., a'll t that . 0 , tbey ala 1n1'ormd you O!l

t a dAi t t JOn \It. 1 bit r tebe 1oIbaOO r t A • a

.t tob<lbe • U tbat eOrrscU -- Co ct .

Ung. of ••• or Poqo or tbe

ACricRnht Cong"£ , - - I wen to ulte a r or ... t1nj; •

""""" maet1ncs or this or lI1aatio 414 JOU atta

'1II1l.~ acc\lS8 vue ~ropnt? -- A 11 the

I atullde tho r ur accuI.d were pns nt . ecus • 3 a

n1 alv~. e rOUllitl tor • res. t bow 81'0 t.beJ' I want tile D ller ot

tt~. f1rat or all. I'll dalll vith tot. "PGra ta17 ,

101.1 HO Y -- .[ t:.!nlt abOlit tbrae .

t1Jtp

t's .tart then with tile fuat ,UIII JOU atta d.

110 retobo )'ou? - AccllII8d • 3 and Two ulle ;alieni.

e8, tbeJ ell» to your house, 1s t t coucet, or vllers

14 tl:le.r at 1"u1 - • Y c to

tnvtl.d Y 407 -- '.L'ban they to .. I

t vith the , tbeN is .. Il10. t1nl:.

A .. at 0: Of v t.? -

14 JOIl tbAtu a O:cp:lllJ tha=? -- .[ v. t to t

° lU!1l to tile b bes .

oJ JOU Co uectly to &wa ON tad1 ? -- , tile

three of lIS, .ceuse lo. ~, len1 oDd 80l.1' , we wnt

au 1J;bt fro bouse to the or4 "tad1 •

n vas tl11. It1na' -- I can't 'OJ' tbe tl&aot dota

time nt 1t v s .. t tile 004 ot

• at 7 ' eloele.

war t • 0 tlla .alt,

- t t f 1962.

t year? -- 196 ...

J - - mIl· JOu it. II toIIlI II t.1Ie a or t. v .. 1E t

o tad!: . So vllen an1"" tllere,,,. tbilre peo 111

a1t tor JOu' - PiNt va lit pe pIlI outa14a and tl»1

14 QI t t t.hB l1li ON tile cuai'd •

IN" - Be OIN we cot to tll18 place whelN

e, U

10Il 81. - , IN 1& an openinJ 111 t bus !Ie

.et1ll& va. 14 there .

to tirst t. pJ8.rd~ . -

wnt 1ns1Ja v N tbe .. at

pa 4 tbua I: 1'11.

vas bDId .

"bat. vare tile utllle ot t &. plU'llltl? 014 you

at tile t1IIe, eN 111(0I'11III4 at aU 7 - we

lOt ar tI» H II, Uil1 po1lltG out. to t.hat tbD

.eUIII would be beld t ret tbe:r abow.4 at tlla baek ~

be 1lb0w4? be .tM1cate47 SWlrda or aecuaed

• 3 alll1 III01? - • s04 tile •• 1111 be POinted,

•• 1ci tba .tic wOld be bald tile .... , 0 ot tile lUANa.

tea, t t'. v t I ntad to k w, bet r 1t vn II

1QlD'CI or eccu 4 • 3. 60 t!le cuards pointed ollt .

V n to arrive4.t tbD .. ot1D& place, "are thoN an,y

people? - tal, tbere were BOllI paoplll VlI1t1llS t reo

11

DIlfur approxt.a~17 va 1OU .. t ta' -t 30 or

And

• t happe awe

enteN tll18 c~ ot peo lao va ra1aa4 our r1&ht bIln4a

,

laid IlIIr:wo lAtba aIII1 tbue people tllen replJ.e4 OIDbl. •

be n aat 4ovn.

o JO pva tile IIllute . -- t 18 correct .

Could an,y parBOIl Dot belo 111& to tb1s orpnilllt10D,

,1w that salute or rIOt? -- ,bocause be d14n't knOv

a ut tba salute .

" t tranapiNd ert.r J'OU sat 40wllf _

tllen II up •

.&lid be 884e • ell? 014 bo make a speecb' -

•

- 41 -

• • 8pftC •

ow rust or 8ll, accused. • 3 etta this _Ullj\'

- rei, lit accompan1ld lID to t t _ 10&.

Inl' or oUnr cc IS atten4 tll1s "Ilt~' -r tl10 .lt14 a over, vhe we va t •

wllO? -- ceuaa 1, 2 anc1 4 .

o 411 r lIZ' eeua d at te,w,o." tlUS 110 t1ll& . - Correct .

o wbin d you at? - In t street as we cot

o t, a atl.Ild1ac ~1n&, we aaw thea tllllrc .

I. ut:you ,I "ut to IalOV tllllr they, ¥ N tbiy

zoe 4ur tbe ... t • - 1 14 oot ... t tbire at

tllll lleot1n& bicause t"" ..... va8 llercwd or people but I sav

t va _ cut or l1li t 141 tbiy ar tbe

II et l1cll • "ben I II t • t 40 :vall tho people we cot 14 t at!'.t

wbilIl you S c tbilzoe' do :vall tbey at tbiI

... t1n8 t - m or Us atOOd up t one t1llle and we valked

07 troll the IDOGUac 1.q C croup .

:you Ball t ot I'll Ulldar the Btl' .t lamp 1.0 the atl'Ht?

- CorNet.

Rev, 10U know "bethel' Jolin Jobs atte thl8

... t 't - I $ tbire .

14 JO IIU blm' - eaw on our vay belDll .

11vea 14 1l:1!ll8 moticn 811 t w 11.,., be 11079 all

t till bo_a or the .. pe ple, y tame ot!'

t 1: .

:you 14 not ... 1 11111 .t tbe t14 ? - I clid IIOt

1180 actua1l7 at tbiI _t14" but he YllS tbere, because

all or UII vlllke avay fioCIII the .. t •

D14 Inl' other pac p18 ~ol.o JOU on your 1187 _ 1"rofa

t ... t1n&? 14 Bill uta I PI pla Join 10 III route

.. , -- 0 lltaWe

,*~1U;e. 1t vas am y lIta .

tv. Jt7 - It

ple ~ 1lIod lIS 111 tbe atr .. t

U.at

) - :2- t1X AI.

.et1D&7 - rei, be va. thare . I tn.. ....

ot le •

iOOlale lIIIut .11:1, 14 be at tllU at1ng7 - Yea.

&Dd , 414 III at 7 - P1adUe aII1

1ape L atJ1a •

, bat first ot aU, rd Y.3lla11ir;ll , 14 III at tatd

til' at1Al>' - Yel .

IJo JOu told us t t tbue lIIOat1Dl IIttetde tba .. t~

eA4 aoouse4 o. 3 atteme4 tbe .. eUn . - a, ae -

PDDla4 _ into tlla tlt1ng.

you _t tblt otbar aoeu 4 0 te1de in tbe. t,

tbare actWlu,. - ea, lIS tbe me tlllC

4, we all atoocl Ull aAd .... VIIlka4 out atd 1M

talked. atd hare I SD till ot .. r three ocuse .

JOU 8111 tba, attende4 tbe _tins or don't fOu 8111

t U 1, 2 aA4 " . - rbe, wre there at U. tin .

41d iln1 otbu people att nd th1a at1ll& apu.rt

fr01ll tbe Dam .. 'you'''' DOW IIIBnt10D0d . I vant JOu to mant10n

2 or 3 GUles. - 1Cba11 vall tile 8, a tho speake •

Xaa, aoot r name . - Btut .

Itt t 15 IS t1c1an . , till aalute "sa

&lftn at:Id JOU ilat down tbell f01l a14 KbeU cot 1Il' . -

COrreot.

bat 1d ~, - ~ sto up aDd III cava tile aa1ute,

f01l are nov 83XU1trat1n . - COrreot .

1.011 vbet 41d be tben 07 - 00 1lba11 ,814 1ocJI:.

tnow rellllB:llbcr we lllba a ot qo .

1114 bocI, open tb1s .. t1ll£' You "ft'~' , oN'lc1aU,

opan tbe at1ng. - • ,,0 be sa14 t t reM I' JO are na;: a I'S

of JVqo . bat k10d of a III t1n& v s th1a 8S tar as JO

ware rna 7 - A qo lila • anv do )'DC! as}' tbst? - lJ told as t t

•

}

t else 414 11 say? _ ....uu. t.beD sa1c! YS t t1gbt tor country. IIWIt not dil.p 110 hat the hitss

po nao Olll' CloUl1tl'l .

011 ex la1.!l to lIS v t IOU _a:I by t • F1& t

rl1uent or bow were you &\JiIpoaod to tight? _ 8 nre

co1Dc to Id11 tile te peopl_, .".n tile IOWl ell 1llre I va

IIIIISt "111 tile . £acll 8var)/ vIl1ta penon t be k111e •

h.1? -- Bacauso liS at t c our COIUItr)/.

"8 70U to 1t111 tlIII ta peo~ t - CUQa,

1tQ1 ... , 1lZU1.

ow lIbera re 70U to et tbll weapoDS? - U

ald tile vaapoll!l wou14 coma trom .1IS.ta.

,*s tl\1a u1c! in tho speech by ""AlU _ I •

t elsa did U 081' 1'111 IIOr1'7, bato IOu elva

t t . beD >lGre you IUPpoa to tm ovn tbt rule or thta

country? - 1963.

Il,y 1963" -- cauae 111 1963 voal4 be sat

.rz.. tl'lllll J U, 0 be h1IIIsalt, be wantad a Ilk, be didn't

WIlDt to vork anc1 bt te<1 .. bonk a hotel, tIP e al'O

tbt two th1Dp be v tad to po .. au.

!lIa v1 ut - Yea.

YOII me " 'thaD., have t 1lIOQe7 • botal llere JOII

t IiIO 7. - n I J list SDO:Ial l1l3 aega

o1taretta~ Without IlD7 tell •

o bere VaB bultw t tl1a t ? __ <II WUS 111 JaU . yo knov? __

W tbe "lID vas !tel' thD flbiar.IV111. r1dnlls, lIa vas at tlla

•

t _ 414 1 ?_

t not be apread eu a1da . It

s and talks a t lt, be

Artvt~~ elM t t 7011 C

14" t1l

to.1T 15 f'O out,

• r? _ U tol4

t c

tav. Ill' 4 ~ t sa lIIIIet IoAIA.

, IJa.t.~ "'14>., _. I .. t lJ.ka a VIII.""IlI •

J

, -- B to c1ist b lIB,

t kUl • AJl,Jt 111& alae t 10 can re l' U addt _

U tllen ave t"- Balute b1 alii ~ r 'It , s

ILt_ Letlm G!Id we l'8p11114 teblaba am be ut down.

ilia did:you into to convey wben JOa ca14 ba

attar }:bali eave tbe aalata? - AU th1a ClOUllt1'7 111 0

soU.

t wb1 id 70a u .. t vord ll!nb]oba .ttn lIaU 8&14

nuw Lethu? - t 111 t"- _ t ,Ilnb]aba n._ Letlm. explaJ.ns. t tlla 1'14 I atate !lOut

tile cro1llll! .

• D14 :rou 111"8 w1th .bat U aaid? - I • wbat IlbaU aaid .

U 70U Iu:d not IIlft141d w1th vbat Kbal1 ao14, wu14 70u

have ftpUad tlmblaba at b1a apeech? - U 70U do 't

agna or even 1t :you doo't l1IoI tll18, )'OIl are 00 cOlllplllllld

to pat up .r= band . "78 lIB put up h1a band and ""14

UoIt1laba becau. "- Ukec1 what l:baU aaJA, 8 ec1 with U .

Yea, tbat· a J'1Cllt .

apart n-oa U?-

011, vere t ra aJI1 otber 8 aka1'.

• tile at vaa close . CillJo' JebaU va. t"- a atar tbe •

Vllat bnppGMd l' IIlaU 1144:rosSGd tlla. 111 'I

- 11 tllao cl.oaad tbe ... t ,than va lott .

cl1d 70u lean' - I tooII: no DOt • 1 v 8 OM

or the t1rst people who 11ft tlla .. tinC, aad I walD4 art.

I VIII in tbe lirat trOU wtlo lett tile IDD til! •

~ people conalsta4 th1a £1'0111P? - !IOUi~ about l~ or I •

nov:yo .. ra a r ot qo. _" tall r.

011 batoN dBal1nt: w1th tile atbel' at~ Itt811de4,

w'U It111 pt to tbat . )'011 tell s boY 10 ,

tor wbat period JOU wora a III l' ot ,_ I w II 8

.. l' or Jb ° orpaJsatJDD 1lDt.U st. , I DOlI V t you to UJ)la1n t tIa Court .s till'

) - ~!1 -

a. 70U DI'G or 61" co c.Z' ,

of tbJ.s orpn 101011 ver. . - 1rIIt of aU :La to over

tlll~ t tOWl'llllltllt, and. ut. c IiOftrcmellt tile:. to

rule tile c tZ'7 .

Yu, G.IITt elsa? - !hat 15 tbe 0011 dill I ow

a ut .

Q that :La tQ k1ll tbe PUlIS aDd tile lack

Govel'OlDllnt to 'rule too countZ'7. - k1ll tbe tall,

overtbroli lObe OV8Z'lIIIIIIat en4 put e leek GoY&r ot to

rule the count.., .

, tlWl is nov 10 l'1ret et:tng t'lat 70 attoniocl .

ow ve al'G co1ac to 4oa1 w1t t ot l' 1II4let1nga

ow 1114 ;you afier th1a lIIIJot1.ng tbat u addre_ .d, atulO IUI3' otber lII!Iet1llg 0 We orpa1aatlOl1,

vbere DlIl' of t accus.d WlU pres.nt? - I atton a4

a .. et1ni Wba" all four tJIa a CUM w", P1'08811t . Xhat

.. ot1n& VIIS beld 4ur1n& be d&1. I'. cot sure vhetber 11;

va. a Swlda:1. but it \/0 bald 11~ the 481.

-

ra was th15 1M t1ll& bald' -- fbe beg1M1n& 01' 1962.

Low 1011& 81'Ur lObe first 0118 tbat '1DD atu ,-

IoDI:IUt a W olt or two atu;r ttll l'1rst .. t •

v IIIllll' people ap 1.IIIa 17, attall4e4 this ... t1nt:'

- I'll t sure, I 11M not COtlllt t I'll 88J' 1'0 about

3 or If •

it? --

addN8lW this _at1lls, co t t e Cal1 iclent1ty

lD vas t 1ntarpretar 011 t _t • Be

1IIterpreted reI' a UII 'WI» IUlIIB t'Z'OIII II •

benltOrll, tor record p\U1lOlIGa, t is is tbe

.... to t 1.$ witness atteD4ed, as tar as be cord

is co t' 11 r to tb18 • t1ll& aa tho tldrd

.. 111& ap1n, _. pl.1ed 111 ra~ct 01' tm rUst

ta wiwa • t to \: e tile witness, I tdU

"'hI' to uu. - tlD& oJ'. /JU ., b1s De t . 7011 this all 4ur1ng clay not aura v t r

/ - 46 - l!IW.

II Sil1l1lSllJ . - II t 15 t I liS fle14

in 1'nJ.ne II ut 11 0'01 k, • Iw is no .. llbat

or tbe uk 1t vas.

it v n dar

_ It 8 tile" ... 04.

;you t 10. IlS app talY people re tbe •

ot 1111. lata - •

3 to 40. ow, hOw II pt to WI _tine -3 on :roUDd to IlM r l' •

Ac 184 by? - l1e4 It.7 • nan! .

two people 0 to 701U' t. cutl

p • 3 \ .. toll! Cl8 tho 111 11 lIIuting.

1 to vitia tbola 50 to till st1nl;.

• 3 oalled Q 10U tor tbB et1ng,

ac:e:>:iP:U:11od b7 tvosa:01l: . -- 1: 8 •

t d • 3 ve to Say' --

III told me 1 1:Il8t. 0 lIit tt1e to tbe ... tin , I vent 1I1th

the •

~o the me ting of what? - :. Poqo IIIS.Un .

r.o JOI1 8 cOOllPsn1ed the . - Yas •

IIb81'1I d.ld you CO' - To a ord tad •

.. place han the prev1~ IIIIItI 1nl: vas be 10. ? -

Ye .

"ben fOIl ani ny people WH tblH?

_ hers va. quite 8 crowd tblre.

prox1Jlatel,y w1lIlt 1d )'Ou .. t1llate 7 - Aoout 30 or

It •

60 JIbe 10U uri., tblre, wbat plM '? l'm sorry,

lie OH 'We deal lIit. t t aspect . 'Iou told us, I th1mc,

8arl1£r on, tll3t all to ace 8 d atta!ldo4 this ae in .

- lea .

ow, d14 :

"laut

.racoll •• ttoad 111 IIIIItt1lll' - Ye .

kif -- re •• :.act '0 JtI , - ,

ADd &lIT otll!>r peoplll t 1011 have not. tlo01lU

.I - 41 -

s. - 1wls uto.

&& • rh!it 18 .. urt1c1e t. I t 1rllt. - 1s a180

CIIt 'J tDt DUe of 10 l~dat:l.

ADd w!)at ba. ll8d tl»a' b1Io lJye.::s4 t t'in erp ... f·n~ rer!! this 10 cpanad t~s meot1nl. lit vas t

Ion v came rrom Jobapassbu1'C . • did be open his lMat!!: 1 -- lla l' 11:04 S 1'1 bt

h lid, palll fo ard, lleElo'8 IAltbu, w raind OUl' ridrt bII

said :mIIla ••

Yu, a what did be t en bave to "'I' - bU at

spealalr tMn sald ...

0, I'. &01'1')', I' aot d .. linE vi b cueat speaker

I' .Ull clea11n& w1th C04l.o . You a • Oodlo coul.c1 ftOt

have 1'81,.4 b18 hand, ,1", tba 111 An4 t aat 401m .

ust va introduced S 11 or st va sa s thiDe

... ut t ... t1llO:, rcu s e. - He t n tollS as ~"l'9 18

OM of tho officers t oba "bUr. t .IeeT - He ,_ 40wn re to riM out bow

are we ,at 1011 on bore .

orr1cer of what

C' - Otr1 r or t

Do you 0\: t::u

Po orClIIl1t: t •

tit bow fCU waN pro saine. I

t!11nh:,you aid.

4jd

-- t 1s eorrect.

th 11 inttodw:e t 18 lDIlll to tbs ? -

e , co.uo 1ntorduced t s lIOII to us, Wt I 1'orllot I:i1a

• I cen't ramember his •

11 we shall refar to bill all tile pat ,paske . -

1s correct .

ow, t 41d tll1s 1'188 &jlCaltcr do? -- 'fb18 CUIIat

a l' aa14 YaII aback to Me boW _11

ba 1 . • t t t t!l1ll w~l. vel

or aollS1srs lilt 1'8 or 0 1sst •

did be at rt J11s I1pee@'I st rtf at [;~Iala!r . -- <is , wilen 0<110. ad ;I

to

- liS -

aalute, t:u.. _ !so p!ft tilt salute lie a;JOb to

10 III isb (;0410 lilt. preted. t t to in za.

o II in Q1cU" . - Correc •

tilla all apart troll h1a

oJ"Oe atta

appo1ntlllent

tll1a

IE UIlli t:l lUten to tau SUiJat 8 alter trOll JOlwl:lellbUr&'

- M at not d •• p, va at l1ka 111

t

ImlSt orca 1110 people 1n t.bo

I.l!!lnov I' :IOU pt people JOu JIIIllIt orcanl •

•

o orcanis til: •

~ II ::ut

I'e 1101'1'1, 1e8, proce ,eo t ........

- pnin to pt l1li be 8 tor t

tdid

- Dur an aJld st LOllllon.

arbaA an4 at London. t dld lie h:ive to II8Y abo t

theM 0 - Il8 told ua t t. ul¥ ."1'7 tu

t re is a I118llb1r ot the ~o 0 til lsatton. Thope peopl.,

tta,)' don't..care v tiler tlll1 Ill'll 111 bl18lla and it "hare,

tLII), ,thtr p \/1th people, they t3l11: Gbout. tob1e .

ra tha,)'l -- ro theft are ptlllr1np ot pla .

X on't tallow that. -- llere they _ t people 01'

110, t. 1 lipea]t ot. , they'" tot Doth1ne ela. to

t b

t .lsa did tile EUest speaker .. y' - .lid also told

us l1li t s .

1d III &a¥ a~t.l1n& about tho en or .tt ck. v n

III spOke a nt, 1 :m't want to c:ontusa ,)'ou, I t int tile

.is urban, tlla 0 t Il8r is at LOndo!! . - Yea.

told that tt. is , sbOrt. . '11 JlISt wait U!ltU

the a'1 t I.e o t of jall.

Jus vant be e:y? Wbat. 14 you e:y' - J st va1tiat\

r tile 4Iq whan :lG release out or J 11 . Just

Joe rot' bular.! aat1.l ba 1. raleuad on. 0 J U . 4id

n lRI &1'8 1ne t:l a tack.

- It9 -• 1s t t all 1® c r 1" - t n told

Il!I a all1<1 'l1li II1lSt not l.'1cht st ollnlelws. It w va

a t.eliA; to nab a pera • you st tats a •

n to 18 .

usJc' - D 811: .

Dess op d1e b 1'" -t!le W\.-n below.

, 88&18 t1allpetot

1& it e~s1e • .rDal? - !bat 18 a art o! t

llAboth, the Qctll!ll 1s ado al, but the,

~ t call it Dessie.

'tbll1 you lllat tp tCi 1.18 and do Iolbat, -- lIi4 ~

tab a """"'pean tha 1'11 . sa;:ra ve IlUSt It1U a PI! ,oot a.:lac pe !m.

o v n YOIl tell 11lat Ugh 1n:I,)'O CO to s818 and

IOU k1ll e pa . - rhat is correot .

DTth1a<l else that a can ralllll 1" - t 1$ all

I can rellllJll r the cue st peateI' RI 1.: .

did be eloae bJ.a speech or eJl4 Ida peeeh7 -

Ill" 't salute b,. raUin hi. 1'1 ht bnn:S, Ba1d Uuw

lAtt , va atoOl1 up and VII ra1ae4 our r1&ht 1uIJId. aa1d

DrlblIlbtJ •

"1d ~,. c:lc~a Ill" otr1c:1all1 close th1s 111 T

Do 10a b you tirB1i or all tol u& t t 00610 intra-

ucad t 1s &lIfBt apeaker, t II the C'JIIst speaker

epee • be JIll t1ng' - !!bali then stoocl

lIP and P" tba solute, Uezve Letha.

tho aU!l1Bnce 7 - l'tIpl1a.:1 •

leu, did ina _11:0? - III t. II sa1d to u&

~OOk. t man a. as the tJ'lOth. 1 allrnya ;.1Q(l-

1i1l: you about t 1& an/i U II aa1d aU Of ua t IItBJ:d

lIP and be ClI'IS the salllta, llaa1G 14t, 1'1Ip11ea be

t n the J: t was ~lOH •

ADd tlDV CI YOD 1e Q , - III U croups.

h:r in 11&1111 &roup.~ - Call t

- .% - U1!l.

r t re t t. ~a)" - s , IIYa:N

• • or reuon as tl t - s .

r 1'8 '&0 "turt r, IIC1Mt in ~UlIt atr

411 I tbin o.mi tod t • M/ d14 70 haw to CO t:!

t Btl meetings' ere 1011 Ul'llOS to be d or not.t -

IINst bo al'1IIC~ .

I) t s is DO\: t •• co _It in t~t 7QU at a4eII .

- Correct .

011 1.1 'au .ttend otber ... tin

ad I/Gre prulnt' -- 1 atten ad a

d o. 3 as pl$s.nt.

re nay t tt.

ttn, at v ell

OIl, this 1$ "'" tiS t'Ur4 lII£at1nj; that 10U atte 4 ,

l'poaoa acalo, t u vID at count, be till

t1ng? -- .his Dl8et1n&

VIII lei 4 rinG t n1 • in 1962.

Ile;~ J.n I tovaJ'dll tba mU 11 or .lId' -- 'Iluod about

luCbI ;ay ot 1962.

M rchi - - , reh or Jay. 1962.

it La app!l.rent~ the bel &JJlll1~ • - 11:1 .

VI.S 1. durin, tho v oltt - Cnrinj; the e . I

came tro vork t: t lIT.

"hat tilllC va. it? - I.t. a ut; 0'c1 k .

41 7Ct: to tb1. t1ng? - I met aocuse • 11 in Coail1c I' streot .

J wa1t a 1t. Xvu . 3' .D11l.e Et:aU .

- 4 t is correct .

reT - In Conde or Strut . I vas Y:llk!ol: 1n

\orO l"~' t •

au " re YlIlldng in Conolcnr tre.t an4 t re you

1118 t tllll • ce tIe n. - lid 8OG!B others .

C; 11, II 1 1. t "I re in a • • n. rou t • - .,

tlllln ;.old 1 e tr use, 1 to

)

•

- 51 - uw·· .~ 1M •

7 ro trom 101ll' bo to l' tc )'QU 1'01' '1/ t po .. ' -- t t u ,111 au t. 7

It .. 111 tllot lit t, ao t

to JIG h t.bCJ II t et.

or llat purpo ? - -0 0 to a 'l0 at •

no 8Jl7 ot t ot. ... r aooused 111 t'J8 &rOll or 0 __

;,;he oaly OIM I can II

in tonill grc; •

/I at 1s accuDIt • 3 w

t n Vbara we you taken? - I ratuse to 1:0

Dad. the c 1'1'104 1118 t 18 at •

• ow vI\)' 414 you no se t -- I vas a ad, t1rcd abo t

t III .. 8Uni:S .

,,0 t.he7 c.:u-d lOU. - la CIIe,IUl"" treet I II d

tbaae peopla to put IIIe down, I'll walk, because 1t WIl't

c1e .. it t 7 co. to the II t1nj: r!'11n.. t

I w .. punh •

walt a bl .. ore we Cltt to that when )'OU arrl d

there, If I'll VBB thu III! Une held! _ Fo tadl\1111

t tba a p ce where tbe 0 her

It" 1 117 t

t.1n;:J we •

till n1V1. -

~hat. tia .. ;u-oxima l71 - bo -t o'clock.

1&bt.

'II, Il 7011 8l'l'ive at tbo .... t plac... bow mDn1 peopla we t 1 -- ra v ra quit a nil 1', abo t

J pe pla "'ere the •

hot ba pe d v '1:rou rive tile wit ~use4

• 3 aa

"N414t 7 t • ;)V ,114 JOU see BIl7

ku t n

of' t at t-1a ro ... we I: t to 70ur punu at? - I can't say it

acc 1I0d 1, 2 It ret re t.

t JO 80W ec sa • • - a. e t up. - s.

l, he ...., " t Jl4i s .tt • pro I' ma tilt , 1 s a • lIP &a7 .ua I.e and ,OU

Ung

- 52 - Wll' 1111 • I';;;;';~,I, or t bapper:

bere - IIa I arrive vitll t • Othe1'8 t re, t

t. t 7

apea a ut. t Is . 'file onlS t' 1 be I'd a. that be

1 It. be jll10Ullad b41e.~ I don't atte tile t •

11&1:1 BO I' -- Duke

~ IOl ta the re tore 14 t t 701.1 11101.1 d be p\::ll.atllllQ

causa :rOil do not attend lD8at1 ~s 1'1,1.Ilar;Js. -- ~

rec:a1ve 2 Iltokes .

Y I, 'I'll cot to tll:it. I kIIDV 10U toel .oro a bout

this, t 70U must elva us tlla IS Wl • 0 artu :r

nOM vas tllaretore oall.l

D .. 84 vb;y 41:1n't I c

nakll :ron? --

lit, " IIspjllne 1 - I va.

to tbe prior

laltuta alike

etloa •

III.

1' •• , a 41:1 :rOll otCQr aa.T u lanllt1o? -- 1 tel

II1Il t V!lS at \IOrlt and h1d I 40 't 'Iallt to I' t.!ult,

an4 be .a 1:1 1 lIowa.

Iee, ,,'>at 4:14 70u t

t sandt

co I' -- I 1AI1 OVQ ODe 1>1114

by /IJ;f t at .

o :rcll \18l'11 OD your tDllacll? - 1; •

"14 you stlll haw 7!! P t. ont -- 110, t took

IIJ' ponta owa .;:::.:l r as on tbe 2r'l:wld.

Ancl v t .. ;>8ne4 t 117 -- !the:r ~Wlt

lubes vitll a oaM.

111182

as it • l1&ht Oaml 01' • ileaV)' 0 7 -- A baH)' C

Co las • , -- 2.

1:1 it tell~ -- ~t v •• v r:r painful. be 1

ht to IIJ'le 1t this

attor tJs b.1dlo or art l' 70U re pun1sllll., -

J:hen we "8l'11 told ve t CO ut 10 11 S INSt

I: to tM 1 tion aruI ev 1'1 psrsjI1 W me t 10 t l' t

" It ns • Jo ,0 1c &1. II.N 10 tbe to's

l' on tlw lac ., because 'Ira ant C01lIItr •

~s. IJZl,It t IIlss 7 - lett tn1s t cro ilS.

•

.J - S3 - •

• were ~ other pe':lpll p nuho« roUl' lICe

at t - .,.. can't t .11M t18 It err urs e r- "ponles IIIQ, he •

:.1111 ere •• y • ~ - s.

jill s, - Yes, OllC ised.

Did w t7 ~~ 1d • 0, I elon't WI1 t • t W II that! - 0 t

irc lse4 \len held aail lleylau:.boI at h •

1 , t t's h7 Il8 \Ilia era.? -- ea.

414 tl1a t1llg then dl.sper .. ? _ 8, \IG t

cut in SlIIIIll rou s to he lOCI tiD •

td you reorl11t 1111 aellibera tbnt !ght tar t s hid ?

- • Y N ewe by t poU/l • •

tell !:Ie r. th r

I'. not cure if euards " I'll

a poat d.t h1. III Un? _

beea se we vera 1n a

I /ala" ¢!lat vu v 1tin for SCI 1 took '10 1I0tleo

o what wal &0 •

ow, wera 8117 aon a 01' freGdo oaB'! at 1l:IJ of

t.ble,. tin s that lOll atto d?- ita a let . IlII c.".

EO C!IlIl)'. aa.c s t be ta n avtr/ •

•

..!l::1J~.J:;;!3.1 ow, .r think JOu t 14 us t. ~t llaay son;:s _re

.. ""'" at t \I me in • - hat 1; e •

so 1IIr .

lod •••

a • - .,11::1"" utll

tollow h1III G\' U be 8 •

t. ~. 1t .. all\' - Llala Il1UbY '11, .... "it a

d IIl1't 1t.'UlV bat 1t !lOans, 1 a180 on ' t ow

1t 1108:1 • •

t

t 1OU" Iler joU, tb.-t u Sebllklle "",.t. SO ial'S . ~- es.

ow. do 1011 W 'llbet r III1,T ot t

1', OIlY llat._ 1', VOl' ev

- SIt -_Il!era of t 1& orpnlllation to ette ~ of t.he ..

- threats ttl ,,",- of.

lIOv 414 ron aver hear at eIt1 otap at &111 of tM"

_Un .. t t 1I1I1b0d7 voice any obJoctioll8 or IS not alNtl

"itb Wbat \'ao add by aa:7 of thue spe 1'11'-b3eetiona; .

Jllr the V1lY. 14 rc ette 0111 other .. t1Dp apu.rt fro

tba where t accused V.N pNHnt, or any of the a c

va ... pre .. nU - I etta ed quite a lot of ... t1ll e .

hlse t.hreo lIIIat.1Dp 1a t ba relllmboro of v t "all aa14

aDd" t vall • bUt bit Just knowo alY.>ut t.he .. otber t-

1.np.

ow, 1 ttl1.nlt rcu told us t t GcIbUln1a wall the ltIadn of

this orcan lsation. - r8a.

AIld vID noted wbtn III va. 4 te , vb1lat he waa 111

detention' - Leballo .

rou vheN t lie ort1ca U of th1a or&lIOI88-

tion? - liaH1'1I r BllJsatoland.

:oearu or lIaautolalld.

traw11e4 40'1m

Jacoba aDd trw ot. r vi·bIo .. :se . - Ye . baN vitb Jo

Is that

to Cl-adoo •

rt t>l1l:aba , - n .. "" Fort IISr.a th

IIow 414 rcu una!? - ~ poUce • 414 rc spend to tlKlr 10 rt l11sabath before

1II1lv1oc' - Jaol!a.,. a crowd or US 11m to£etlwr.

00 VG.l'8 toe-tller ;'I811UAJ7 "ith till otlle vitae •

11110 "ere broUght out tram rt tM - leU.

ron 11 v that rou Ie co to CiVil ev1de1lCG 111

thla 118' - Ie •

II lOU !sCUllS th1a lie at aU? - I d14 • bee UlIe I w 1lt'ft14 or the at-bare and 414 n:>t. trIost t

vaN lOU arr 14 of ot l'S'

•

.... w. I took it up thia ~i par~ thia pa v111 CQIIe to III

/ - ~ -a ttlo .. t s 31l8t to t1D<! out v t 1

tlJ:I or", Diu •

:oDld that affllct)'Oll' - I 414 not wa::l. to IaIaIr

villi t tt.1a pe aon bad al.relldJ "14 a I 4 not t h1II to

""'.. w t I". •

14 JOa not ant 1m to knav " a14? -

l' ps tb1a persOD 5 an Ol'IDIIr. or oU". .

t JOU bad al.re d7 your stata nt to t pollee.

llatln't 70 , - I bave alre d7 mada '1111 statal:l8nt to tilt pollia .

%1Ien Ift\7 aIIo11l4 a pe son who m1&ht be a ataoUVII or

an into1'llllr. w~ ahoul4 t t vom IOU' - Perhap: th1s

pel' onta to t1M ttl know aaS w t l' 8814

be vanta to t;;pl1oata _. neeus& _ about v t I have sa14 .

Iou'". a1read7 118 a a state.nt to tilt polleo. hall ~011l4

it uttar that a furtbar atete_ t voDld be 1'8 rted to

tile pollee' - c_ I 414 not this p<ll'aen wile

spoke to I:l8 a1read)' bad -.1e a state t. eIl4 told tba truth

vt.ba aatt .

~ abODld JOu be Ul~14 to tnlk to any ot t ..

people beca tbe), a1read)' lDada atate nta to tile police?

- S-cause I 414 not Ialo'lI an I 414 not 108 tbell when thoT

made eM Iitat8lllll1ts to tile polleo.

Iou d1dJl't Itnov that tile),' 1lIli1e atatalDOllte . - I 1114

not •

Jon ware atra14 that tile), m1&ht teU the poUca lIa port

t t 11' state nta bat JOU had told t • -- Cor1'llct .

It VIIS tilt chaat1D& t Justice that JOu wanted to avoid'

- Correct .

ow, tore TOU /maw tb:lt tbeae people vallO to g1va

av14anea . - %baT alae told lIB what I V81 told b7 tba

llee at l' I' made 10' #tatallent. thII poltce add to

I Wit came to Court aa1 X IIIWIt g1va atete nt 1 <:cur .

D14 tlltT taU ,ou' - All I 1m t t the .. people

IUW "ttaa. s .

tM)' va 8lraad)' IIlde 8tatallllli . _ res.

Collection Number: AD1901

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Recorda 1958-1978

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In the oourt ot fb. i'1irah tor the ohm o ha1d t ruGook. J · J , In the oourt ot fb. o ha1d t ruGook. i'1irah tor the fb. St 1:e Va. 1) Gi4.on 51111111. eo 2) Cubevu llanqo1 a 3)