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TRANSCRIPT OF CONVERSATION BETWEEN MARIA SHAND (RIGBY COOKE) WITI-1

OORN FOGARlY ON TUESDAY 17 AUGUST 1999 AT TI-lE OFFICES OF MARSHALL

MARKS KENNEDY 179 ELIZABETI-1 STREET, SYDNEY AT (TIME)

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"But we've got Dom. How do you spell your name?"

"D-o-r-n"

"I just wanted to check the spelling on that. Dom Fogarty?"

"Fogarty"

"OK, Dom can you just clarify for me what your current roles are? I know you are a

Life Member of Tennis New South Wales?"

"I retired from most of them but I'm still the state selector general state selecror"

"And that's with Amanda and Carol?"

"Carol Langford"

"And how long have you been in that role?"

<<A long time"

"A long time?"

"A long, long time"

"OK"

"Actually I was director and I retired because I thought the youngies should come on

but I've kept a couple of committees on"

"OK when did you cease as s director?"

"Urn, it would be about 5 years"

"OhOK"

"Approximately"

"So you were the state selector of the under 18 girls in 1997?"

"No, everything"

"All women's?"

"All women's and junior girls from about 1966"

"OK, so you were involved in the selection in this case in 97 and 98? Cause that's the

relevant time we're talking about"

"That's the time"

"How do you know BXJ ? Or do you just know her through ... "

"Because she was one of our good players. Uh, I don't get involved with parents or

juniors I found it's better not to. I speak to them all and she was one of our good

juniors, she is quite a good player"

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"How would you describe her in terms of her persona and urn, not so much as a tennis

player, but just as a person?"

"Well just normal like any of the juniors around the circuit"

"Is she quiet, is she introverted or extroverted?"

"She's quietish. But as I said I really don't get involved a lot, I talk to them but I don't

believe in getting involved a lot. If you're talking to a parent or a child or a junior

another parent thinks you're giving them preferential treatment"

"Sure"

"So I know them all and talk to them all but I really don't get involved, I've made that a

rule since I first went on, I found it works very well"

"So have you observed her behaviour in the squad situation?"

"No not really"

"So when you are selecting, urn you don't observe the players, it's mainly on their

results?"

"Results, potential and we watch them all in their tournaments in all the junior

tournaments they play we watch them all"

"So you'd be watching them on court not so much on court?"

"On court and while they're around the court in between matches and everything"

"And Noel, how long have you known Noel?"

"Uh, I don't know him personally but I've seen him around since he was a young

junior, a very young junior, he played tennis"

"How would you describe Noel as a person?"

"As a person? I don't have a great deal to do with Noel except on selection urn ... "

"Tell me about his role in selection what role does he have?"

"In selection? The women's selectors select all teams, they do all seedings, the girls that

go to ***,which is the Institute, Noel actually selects those but consults with their

selectors"

"So*** Noel has the final say?"

"He has the final say"

"Bu t he consults with you?"

"We have input into it, he consults with us"

"But for state squads ... "

"The selectors select, but I also go and talk to him and let him know what we're doing"

"So it's almost the reverse, you consult with him in that case?"

"Yes"

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"So urn, BXJ was in the 1997 squad? But she didn't make it to the 1998 squad do

you remember just from your memory why that was?"

"It would have been on performances and ''**''" "There's been a suggestion that the reason that she didn't get into the 98 squad was

because of the incidents that occurred and her rejection of Noel. What do you say

about that?"

"No thewomen's selectors bad no reason to do anything about that"

"Did you know in January when that's when you make the selection, wasn't that for the

first term?"

"Yes"

"In January 98 did you know about the alleged incidents that you now know about

then?"

"Uh Amanda told me I'm hopeless on dates I'm sorry"

"That's alright"

"Urn, Amanda had incidentally apart from begin a very good coach, Amanda is very

strict with the girls, she's very fair, I respect her and she's got that rare thing, she's close

to them without coming down to their level so with regards to the squads and things

we are advised a lot by Amanda, how they're performing in squads. But to select them

we go on their performances and what we've watched them play. Is that what you

wanted?"

"Yeah it was, if that's you know your point of view on that ... "

"yeah, that's the way it's done, no"

"Urn, when did you first become aware of the allegations if I can call them that?"

"Well Amanda rang me ... "

"Do you remember roughly when that was? Was it at the beginning of this year?"

"No I think it was before that ,it was before that"

"At the end of last year?"

"I honestly don't know"

"OK"

"·But she rang me and as I said Amanda is very honest and says exactly what she thinks

and she told about the incident"

"What did she tell you?"

"She didn't give me the name of the junior at that stage, she told me that a junior had

been in the camp at Sydney University and that Noel had uh, knocked on the door and

had been drinking, came in touched her on the breasts and got on the bed and she

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pushed him out and he went out and the next night the junior didn't stay there but

came back to squad and he had made detrimental nasty remarks to her in front of the

other girls urn, I was concerned enough about it to ring John Whittaker our President

and asked him if I could have, I spoke to Carol Langford to have a talk to him"

"So you spoke to Carol then?"

"I spoke to Carol"

"And what did you say to Carol?"

"I had to speak to Carol before I spoke to John because she is another selector. I told

her what Amanda told me uh, now another thing happened I was trying to think this

morning, I can find out this date but I really don't' know the date I'm chair of what

they call a Women's Advisory Committee, and Women's State League I'm sort of

pushing **** and junior girls I guess you guessed that and we had to have a meeting to

decide, make a decision on a match it was a full committee meeting but there were five

there and one of the girls, this is after Amanda told me, one of the girls made a remark,

incidentally I didn't say anything to anyone else except John Whittaker that she said

that, oh Noel likes the young ones and then one of the other girls said what does­

think and she just said ob- just pretends it doesn't happen. I also relayed that to

John Whittaker, when I met with him at White City and I had explained what had

happened and at that stage Amanda badn 't told me the name of the girl"

"What did you tell John?"

"exactly what I've told you now"

"So you relayed the story ... "

"I relayed both of those stories to him .. "

"That is the story of what Amanda told you about Sydney Uni and also the discussion

at the meeting?"

"In the meeting, there were 5 girls, I'm sure of that because there was about 2 of them

when I gave the casting vote. Amanda did explain bow it bad all started with exo

because she had coached the juniors"

"So is this in your discussion with Amanda earlier on, what did she tell you?"

"Yes, she told me that, how she had found out or been approached. She was friendly

with BXD I think it is now and I think exo

junior event (or during then???) and then ... "

"So you rang John and you told him ... "

was coaching a

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Dorn: "No I didn't tell him on the phone because I didn't think I should talk about that on

the phone. I asked him what day he was going to White City and I went and saw him

in his office and I told him what Amanda had told me and what had happened at that

meeting but at that stage I didn't know the name of the junior because Amanda

thought it was the correct thing to do so that her name wouldn't be mentioned

anywhere at that stage"

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"So what did you and John decide to do?"

"Well we both decided there wasn't anything we could do I was concerned about the

junior and our other juniors and I was also concerned about the association because

they would be liable for it if anything sort of happened and John I think told Craig the

Chief Executive .... "

"And then what happened?"

"Nothing happened after that, John and

I had talked about it and he said you know they were, had to be made aware of it,

which was why I spoke to him, two reasons, for the young kids and the New South

Wales association and then there was nothing happened in the intervening time until BXJ

decided she would come forward and say something"

"Do you know how *** the meeting on the 3n1 of August, you were present?"

"The one at North Sydney, yes, oh and in the meantime ... "

"did you take them in though?"

" ... I spoke, I thought it was alright then to go and see Craig WatSOn who was our Chief

Executive, and I told ... "

"what did you tell him?"

" ... exactly what I just told you, what I told John"

"Did he know at that stage?"

"Well John had said somethingto him I think"'

"OK, and what did Craig say he would do?"

"Urn, Bob Giltinan had rung Amanda and said he was going to go out for, make an

appointment with Craig for , BXJ to talk to him. At that stage I then knew it was

BXJ. and urn ... "

"So who told you that Bob was doing that?"

"Amanda"

"So Amanda told you that Bob Gilitan had made ... "

"Giltinan"

" ... had seen ... "

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"No hadn't, was going to make an appointment"

"Oh OK, with Craig?"

"Yeah so then I rang John Whittaker because Bob had asked for the 3 selectors to be

present and discussed it with him and his decision, which I dunk it's right was that I

went as chairman of the state selectors and that Carol went as a director, he said he

didn't need Amanda she'd go, because she was employed by the association"

"So you went to the meeting on the 3nl?"

"I went to the meeting. There was another thing, I'm backtracking I'm sony ... "

"That's OK"

"Ub, we send teams away in January interstate all age groups and we have an 18 year

old team who went to Adelaide I think and I thought about this the whole time I didn't

know what to do cause I didn't' want to mention BXJ 's name but the girl called

- took the 18's to Adelaide and this isn't affecting BXJ

junior .in it that we were a bit concerned about"

but there was a

"Who was that?"

" REDACTED

"And what did you say to..,"

"I just said to her would she please be very careful and just watch her"

"to watch who?"

"'8''S0!1!'and Noel"

"And what was your concern about

"Urn, because it's very difficult to put this into words I'm not an Australian selector

I've retired but Carol and Amanda are so I don't go interstate at all so I never saw

anything and Carol had noticed in Melbourne with Noel and urn, and

also at another tournament maybe **Noel was suspicious about that ** but having her

*** there I became concerned and I mentioned that .. was very responsible. She

used to be **'''~** and I just asked her to keep and eye on what she did. And she came

back and she said there was nothing, the only thing when they went to ***, do you want

me to keep all these bits and pieces?"

"That's alright cany on"

"When they went to meals instead of sitting with the girls always try and

sit next to Noel but I was quite confident in saying something to lilathat she would

not say anything to anybody"

"Did you mention BXJ 's name?"

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"I can't remember. I don't know whether they •f*** same as I said to you I honestly

don't' know''

"That's OK"

"I probably said a junior because I had been very careful I hadn't mentioned her name

to anybody in *** to her"

"So um, you had the meeting on the 3'd of August at that meeting?"

"I took rough notes which I was going to write up on the afternoon I didn't *** and I

can't even hold a pen"

"Have you still got your rough notes?"

"Yes"

"OK we might ask you to urn, just your rough notes perhaps send those in to Craig and

give them to Craig Watson"

"Are they urgent, or can you wait till I can write them out?"

"Oh yeah, no that's fine"

"Because I don't do shorthand and Maria they're awful"

"They're terrible are they? We have got some notes"

"I did take notes, Carol took then and she's *** she would ,.,,~**"

"Yeah I've got Carol's notes"

"She would be very .. as soon as I can write, I can write them out for you"

"OK um, so urn, has anything happened have you communicated with either BX.J or

anyone involved since the 3rd? Have you noticed um, anything about .BX.J

[tape 12- side 1]

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"Just carrying on with Dom. Have you noticed anything, any changes in BX.J

"I haven't seen a great deal of her really"

"

"OK. It's been urn, suggested or implied that BX.J is sort of one who likes to flirt or

has a bit of a reputation. Have you got any comment on that?"

"I haven't seen her doing anything like that around the tennis"

"Have you heard comments like that?"

"Not really, no. I just thought ***** sorry it's gone"

"Urn ... "

"You asked me about squads ub, can I backtrack?"

"Sure"

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"Amanda did tell me one thing about uh, we have what we call a post-junior and they

come down and practice with Noel and she asked Noel about BXJ going in it and

apparently he wasn't very pleasant to her and he, this is repeating what Amanda told

me, made some derogatory remarks about BXJ

"Did she tell you what they were?"

"Yeah"

"What was it?"

"I can't remember. I can't remember the exact words but he inferred that she was a girl

of, what's the word I want, a slut or something like that. I can't remember the exact

words but it was something like that"

"And she had that conversation with who?"

"Amanda and Noel"

"OK, and urn I've also spoken with Bob"

"Bob Gilcinan?"

"Yes and he said to me that he and Noel urn, ah, affectivity had fallen out l11l1; because

urn, there's some suggestion that urn, that bob's daughter, is it~"

" ... wasn't selected in a team l11l1; because Noel had some influence over that. Are you

aware of that?"

"No, as I said the three women selectors select the girls teams completely"

"S. 's non-selection is a measure for the selectors?"

"for the women's selectors"

" ... not Noel?"

"that's in a team"

"So Noel wouldn't have any influence on that?"

"No, no. When you are saying a team, I assume that he's talking about the teams that

go interstate. Any girls teams or women's teams *** state selectors select"

"OK. Do you think bob might have some motive in coming forward in helping BXJ

with this measure if there is something he has with Noel?"

"I don't think they get on very well"

"Has that been longstanding or is that just recent?"

"I don't know urn, Bob, did he tell you he was (wasn't) state coach ****"

"Yes, OK"

"I really don't know but I don't, it's a personal thing they don't get on very well that's

all I can say I don't know how deep it is or why"

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"right, wn I don't think there is anything else I really wanted from you I just really

wanted to know what you had been told and wn .... "

"That's the best I can remember"

"Do you remember what Noel's role at the 1997 was, he was appointed in May 98 as

the state coach and he >=·*''was coach. Do you remember what his role with New South

Wales was in 97?"

"Urn, Craig Miller I think was our state coach ... "

"That's right"

" ... and I think he appointed Noel with him"

"As an assistant"

"As an assistant, but I don't know the date I warned you I'm hopeless on the dates, I

have to look them up"

"That's OK. Was there anything else you wanted to ask me?"

"I don't think so, I told you how I was involved with it and I still think I did the right

thing by her, seeing *''* bringing it up. I think BXJ was very courageous to come and

say it because it's going to be a very difficult time for her and I feel she must, it must,

she must've *''**with this, I can't see any reason why she would come forward and put

herself in that position if something happened that night, but that's a personal opinion"

"Were you at the Darwin ITF at the end of 1997?"

"In Darwin, no. I hadn't gone interstate at all since I resigned as an Australian

selector"

"Well OK well I think that's probably, probably a good thing I need to ask of you um,

as I said what you've told me will be confidential to New South Wales and when I

report to them I will um, where what you've said is of any relevance I will you know,

refer to you"

"I can't think of anything, how I came into it, was through Amanda who thought she

was doing the right thing, and seeing John and Craig and I've told you all that I can't

think of anything else"

"OK well I'll turn the tape off then"

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