I- ~-

INTERNATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION

,

.I HEARINGS AND ARGUMENTS I

IN THE Mi\.TTER OF!

~THE APPLICATION OF THE GREATER,

!

\INNIPEG WATER DISTRICTFOR

APPROVAL OF THE DIVERSION OF THEWATERS OF 'ERE LAKE OF THE WOODSAND SHOAL LAKE FOR SANITARY AND

DOMESTIC PURPOSES

--1

FILED SEPTEMBER 8, 1913--

DECl~ED JA.NUARY14, 1914

~. .*

~:\vI"'- - -, I

'i :~,! .;

_/:.

WASHINGTON,IGOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

1914 .:.

" ,f1

I.....

INTERNATIONAL JOINT COMJ\USSIO

CANADA.

'1;'H. CIIA.SE CASGRAIN, K. C., C;'~irm~ll.llENEY A. POWELL, K. C.(:IL~"RLES A. !JAGUA TH.

LAWREKCS J. BURPSE, Secretar!l'

2

UNITED STATES.

JAMES A. 'l'AWNKY, CI.Qlrmall.GEOnGE TURNER.OBADIAH GARDNER..

W!IlU:UC.1.tl KLUTTZ, SCCTd4TII

CONTENTS.

Letter oi tmnsmittaJ _. _ _ . __. _ .Application '" .Lett r of State Departmont .Statcmentoi Isaac a.mpbeH, Esq '" .Testimony of- 'f'

~\i~:r\~~!:::.' ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Jo11n Thomas Johnston .J. B. Uhalies .........................................................William J. Stewart _ _ .Jnmes IL Fucrles .C-ol.C. I,. Potter .

Appendi.x: Reports of Prof. C. S. BUchter ~\1lll publk utility commission on,mi('T supply of the city of Winnip()g .

S

Page.579

12

2394256626859

96

LETTER [OF TRANSMITTAL.

DEPARTMENT OF PtJBLIO WORKS,DOMINION OF OANADA,

I hereby approve"of the annexed application by the Greater Win-nipeg Water District and of the mnp referred to therein (the scaleof said map being in my opinion sufficient).

Duplicates of said application and of said map are hereby trans-mitted to the InternatiounlJolnt Commission under the treaty betweenthe United States and Great Britain, signed January 11, 1909, and Ihereby request the commission to take appropriate action thereon.

Dated at Winnipeg this 25th day of August, A. D. 1913.R. ROGERS,

Minister oj Public Works.5

APPJJTOATION OF GREATER WIN TIPEG WATER DISTRICT FORAPPROVAL OF DIVERSION OF WATER OF LAKE OF THEWOOD AND SHOAL LAKE.

To the Hou. EOBERT ROGERS) .Mi7?;ister of Public Works for the"Dominion of Oanada:

rhe petition of the Greater Winnipeg Water District humblysboweth as follows:

1. Your petitioners ate a corporation duly created by an act of Lhelegis1ative assombly of the Province of Mariitoba, being chapter 22 ofthe statutes of said Province passed in 3 George Y (1913), and broughtinto force, by proclamation of the lieutenant gov rnor in council onthe 10th day of June 1013, issu d upon and aiteI' tho vote mcntionedin sections 86 to 9 of said act hn.d been duly taken and was answ('red.affirmatively by sL,,-se'Vcnths of the electors votino- thereon;

2. Your petitioners are desirous of obtaining t:hc a.pproval of theGo'Vcrlllllellt or Ca.oitdaior the us of the \H"lters of'Sholl.lLakc (situatein the Pronnces of Ontario and Manitoba) nnd Lake of the Woodsfor dome. tic and sanitary purposes by the inhahit~mts of the GTes.terWinnipeg Wo.teTDistrict and for such rHrrposes the right. privilege,and pOWOl' of constructing :1 s)'Stem of wat;erworks with the pipe lineor intak~ pipe pIae_d ~n smd Sh.oa1Lake at, or nbout lati~ude 49 3 IN.,longltudo 9;:>(' :;0'1 Vv., ill the ProvIne of Ontano; and fromthere carried and conneoted by a pipe line throt gh parts of thePr?~ees of OntRr~o n:ndManitohn. ~o a point or points ~n the Greatcl'WlUmpe~Water Dlstnct; and for sruel purpos to ex.crClse the powersCOll rrecl by an act ot trw Parliament of Cannda to cnu,blc the cityof Winnipeg to get water outside the Province of Manitoba, whichsaid act wa.')passed in the s~sion of 1912-13;

3. The use of said water for the purposes [dorosaiel is I'endcredimperative in the opinion of your petitioners after careful exn.minl.\tionby competent expert. t\ud t111thorl.ti~, owing to th~ rapidly incre~iJ.lgpopuli1tlon of the stud Greater WlllIDpeg vVl1ter Di tnct llnd the Ulse-emity of the present artesian SOurce of supply, rmd the diftlcult.ies anddang r attending the lise of the water or cit,ber of the rivers flowingthro1.J17hthe district (Red and Assiniboine Rivers) .

4. ~our pet.itioners submit that the use and diversion of said waterfrom hoaJ Lake and Ll),ke of the Woods for said purposes "\\-illnotappreciably affect the level of the Lake of the Woods, or in any way}).fi'ect the right or ability to navigate said lake and will not inj lIr1Duslyaffect the interests or rights of any parties i

5. Your peti~io~Cl"s~ to poi.nt ?ut ~hat the present. population orthe Greater Wmm])C'g \'11ater DLStrICt 1$ estImated at 225,000 ouIsand that t.he populatlOn for the same territorv at the census of 1901wa..., only 50,000;

7

8 GREaTER WIXNIPEG WATER DISTJUC1'.

6. Herewith are filed the following: Two traciuO's or maps showingthe })o ition of , hoal Lake and indicating gener-any the rout.e of theprol'ose.d pipe line from t.he said }nke to the i y of Winnipeg;

APl'LICA.'l'ION TO INTERNATIONAL JOINT CO.M:JllISSICN.

7. In_view of clause 10 of the said act of the Pil-rliament of Oanadafl.nd the connection of said Shoal Lake with til Lake of the W oods

1which latter lake is a boundary water under the elms of the \vaterwaystreaty betweon Grent Brit.ain and tho Unjt,cd States of America ofJanuary 11, 1909, rospecting boundaTY water::;, your petitioners aredesi.rous that the International Joi.nt COlllIllission under said treatyshould confirm your p~titionel's' right to take the water of Shon] LakejUld Lake of the Woods for the purpose. ~tfor("ai.d and do herebyrequest that you ,\-"1lltransmit this application to the, aid COmmisslonlmder rules 6, 7, and 8 of said commis ion accompanied 'rith o,l'equestt,ha,t the commission take appropriate action thereon. Fo!' such pUJ;-pose your petitioners forward nCl'cwjth the follo1'iing documents (inaddit.ion to those hereinbefore mentioned and in addition to the twooriginals of tIlls ,paper i~l~l)ded fOl~ the appl'o:,nI of your department):

(a) One duphcate orlo-mal of till nppltcatJOll for each (If the secre-taries of said ('oll1mi'5.'3ion.

(b) One orjginal tracing map (for each of said ecret-aries), show.ingthe territory in question unci indicating the general direction of theproposed pipe liric (thi.s is duplicate or the map herewith filed withyour depal'tmen~),

(c) 'l\venty-five printed {'opics of this oppli('u.t,ion for each secretary(50 III all). .r.

(d) TW'enty-five whit-e prin~; of aid map for. each secretary (50in oIl).

8, Your petitioners request that in tnnuuiLting t.hiti applicationand t.he' ac.companying papol'S to the Canadian and Amerkan secre-t.aries of the commission ut Ottawa and Washington J respectivelYJthat yom depll,rtmentiorwlll'd therewith your appl1>val thereof underthe terms of rule ..TO, of, aid commision.

Your petitionel'~ therefore pray:(1) That you w.ill approve of sfl,idmap under th provisions of ec-

tion 3 of 'aid act of the Parliamont of Cunada, and(2) That you will transmit this o.pplicatioll 1;0 the Canadin.n. a.nd

.'llnericun s8netaries of the InternatiOnal .Joint COlIllUision in COlll-pliMCC with its rule toget.her with yOUI' exprc:;;:;cd approval thereofIlJld "'ith your request that the comlUission take appropriate netiollthereon.

And your petitioners will ever pray.TRos . .jl. DEACON,

_~{aYOl"ofTJinnipeg and President of the AdministrationBoard of the Grea.ter Winnipeg Water Di.strict.

[SEAL.] M.. PETER ON,8eC}'cta1'Y of saw' Boat'd.

GREaTER WINNIPEG WaTER DISTRICT, 9

DEP.ARTMEN'r OF STATE,TVasn/in.gt91t} November 7,1,913.

The I TERNATIO~AL' JOINT OoMM:ISStONOF THE UNITED STATES AND OANAD ,

. Washington, D.Sms: lleferrinO'to the letter of the American eCl'etary of the Inter-

national Joint CoD1Illil:sion'between the United States and Canada,dated September 11, 1913, transu:rittillg cOj)ies of the application ofthe Greater Winnipeg Water District to the International Jojnt Com-mission for approval of a diversion of water from Shoal Lake, Ontario,for domestic and sanitary purposes, you arc advis d that the applica-tion was duly tran mitted to the WIll' Department for its considerationand that t.his department is in receipt of a commllllciation from theWar Dert1l'tme,n:t stating that it ees no objection to the diversionproposec in the application. In view of thi~ statement of the WarDepartment, this depart;ment does not desire to fi1e with the commis-sion, under its rule of procedure No. 10, any statement in reoponse tothe said application of the Gren,ter Winnipeg Water Di tl'ict.

For the Secretary of State.r am, sirs your obedient el'vflJlt,'

J. B. MOORE, Counselor.

SHOAL LAKE DIVER ION-HEARINGS AND ARGUMEN11

. WASIDXGTON, D. C., January 18, 1914.The Intornational Joint Commissio11 met at 10 o'clock ll. Pl., in

its offices in tho outheru Building, Washington, D. O.Present: James A. Ta>mey (prosiding)i Th. Chase Casgn1i.n, K. C.j

George Turner; Henry Powell] K. C.; Obadiah Gardner; and CharlesA.lIIa.grath. L. White Busboy and La\yrence J. Burpee, secrettuies.

There were prosen t:Isaa.c Campbell, Esq., representing tbe Greater Winnipeg Water

D" trict.Mr. James H. Fuertes) consulting engineer for the Greater Wirulipeg

Water' District. ..A.. :McLennall repro enting the town of Kenora, Ontario, and the

Kenora Board of Trade.C. F. MacInne ] representing the Dominion Government.:Mr. George W. Koonce, reprc.,;cnting the legal department of the

War Dcpnrtmcnt of the United Statc-.Mr. A(lolph F. Meyer, consulting engineer.Mr. Arthur V. vVhite, consulting engineer.

The CHAIlt:llA?'. Before we proceed, Judge ,Campbell} it might bewell to mn.ke B. brief statement in regard to procedure before thiscommission.

There seems 10 be some misunderstanding in the minds of somepeople regul'lling the fUllctions of the cornrnis;'ion, as well as it juris-diction. It has oeen the theory of the commis lon that, having beel)given official jurb(liction, i.t exercises judicial functions, and in pi'e-paring the rule- of procedure we have cnde!1xol'ed to follow the pro-cedure of the courts, as near1y as possibJe, on both sides of the line,with such latitude as was necessary to meet the com-enience of partieshaving business b'fo1'e the commission. In tbe case which is nowbofore us I would ~uggest to those who repre'ent iutel'est.s on bothsides that we shoulrl proceed as nornly ill' possi.ble in accordance withthe cstnblished rules of practice in judicial tribunals, both in the UnitedStates and in Ctmada; that i~, the applicant ;;hall proceed to make outhis case, and then those who are opposed will be given an opportunityt.obe heard while the opponents will, of comse, be given the Tight tocross-examine, just the same as under the procedure of the courts inboth countries. I make this statement in the interest of orderlyproceduro in the hen.ring of the case and to avoid :1ny confusion 01'conflict that might arise in the absence of Sll~ orderly procedure.

Judge Campbell, as you represent the !1ppitcant, vou may proceednow to present whatever evidence you ha.ve m favor of the order whichyou ask of this commission. I would suggest that if you have wit-nesses they take a position at the end of the table] so thnt they canface the conunis ion, as well as counsel, during the examination.

Afr. CAlPBELL. You have the printed copies of t.he application ~The. CHAllBIAN. Yes.

11

12 GlQ:)ATER WlNNI.PEG WATER DISTRICT.

STATEMENT OF ISAAC OAlllPBELL ESQ" REPRESENTINGTHE GREATER WINNIPEG WATER DISTRICT,

111'.GAllfl'13ELL. I lllay !'ay, Mr. Chau'lllfUl illld members of the COlU-mission, lha at the time this application WitS filed we otlr~el es hlld alight doubt about whether the minister of public. works on our side of

the boundruy line could forwurd an application of this kind to you.In the opinion tlrulvn in October I believe, by ....CllHltor T'urner, theclause. of our ns:vigable w'u,ters act is quoted. That is the one thatcllused me to doubt. But, on account. of om minLtel' of pll blie worksbeing ill the West all ummel', we ould not get Ill} order in council~n'Veniently at Ottawa, nnd we had our application filed for it, andOlle hus becn recently is ued, which I ,,,ill file. I believe the ecre-tUl'ies have it,

.M:r.}\f.WIxNES. I have it.1111'. C.BfPBEI,L, I think I would like to have Mr. Ma 1U11e explain

one clause of it, that coveJlnlt:the. que,st.ioll of your jUl'i;:;di tion. Mr.'MacInnes hl1_ aded for t:.he lJollui)jon Governmont on t.he point ofShonl Luke being f!; boundary wllter, and perhap be can make thee.:'(planation mit-Lally without my referring more to it

Mr. MAcIN2'Es. I do not want to depn.rt f1'0111 the proccdUTc out-~ined by' you, :Mr. C'hair~rul. But the nPl)lkntion, as you nrc aware,15 submttted by 1he applt 'aut to the partICular g()vernn.16ut. It wassent forward imply as nn applicat.ion. ince that time thi . orderin council has been passed dealing with the subjec.t. und dealing withthe map which is attached to the n.pplicatioll. .

(The pllper referred t.o W3 read by Mr. Madlmes, as follow's:)0'. AT TUE GOVll:J1N:\fEK1' HOUSE .AT OTTAWA, .

Saturday, Jantwry 8, 1911.Present: ilia Royal Highnes 1he Governor General in council.Wherca :m applicaiion was recently illude by 111eGreate1' \\'irlllipcg Waiar District

(a eorporat.ion created bv u. speci!ll act of the LegislaLure of Manitoba and on'll'bichcertain powers were C'oni'erredby a special act of the Parlimnent of Canada passed iu1913, ch. 206 of 3-4 George V) to the minist.er of public works asking for the approval,under section 3 of the &'!jdact of Parliament, of a certain ll1:tp 0)' plan in relation to theuse of the waters of ,lllOnl Lake situated in 010 Provinces of Outario and Manitobafor domestic :llld Fanit.ary purposes by t.he inhabitall~ of the Greater Winnipe" \\ nlerDistTic-t, and l'eq uesting that the said application be transmitted to the InternationalJoiut COlllmission WitJl the approval. of the minister of puhlic works and with therequest that the said commission take appropriate action tberco~i;

.And whereal:' the said application was tnmsmi(.ted by the miniliter of public workst.o the International Joint Commis..oion with his approval and W~tll t1 e reqll(?st thatapproprintc ::lction be 1aken thereou;

And whereas it nppcars .tllat under a ruling 'ubscquently lll.ade by the Inte111alionalJoint Conuni::$ion tJJe existing rulC.8of pt(lced11l'Cof tbe said commission require tllatnpproval of such a maJ> 01' pla~ a$ is att.ll.('h~d to ~he sald npplication .should ~rs~ begwen by the goyernor m COUDCll before conSldel'ati{m Uler~Or by the smd COmnll8&lOn;

And whereas after full considemtion the conclusion has been reached that ShoalLake is not a bounda.ry water within the definition thereof in the treaty betweenGrent .Bl'itaiUlllld the United lntcs relatiYe to boundary wa,te;'s, dated l1ili January,1909, or otheno;jsc, h\lt it 1135funner appeared however, tbat the said application isin such t.enos that tbe diversion of water contemplated thereby may be such as toaffect tbe naturalleve1 or flow of boundary waters and the inlerests of navigation ofboth Cannda and the mlited StatClS;

And whereas it bas also appeared that t.he said Shoal Lake is witl1ill the scope of artoutstanding reference to tlle Illternatiollal Joint Commissiou lln~ler Ar!.ido IX of Ule!llrid treaty l'e]a!.illg!Al "tbe 'Waters ~f the Lake of t1le Woods and the II' tel'S flOWingmto n,n,l irom tbe smd lake:

The secretary of ~tnte for external affairs, wi~h the opprO\'91 of the mini. tel' of public-works, te'pOl'l~ thnt Shoal Lake is not tQ be. considered ,a botmdary water, but that tbe

GREA.TER WlNh'1PEG Wil.TEB. DISTRICT. 13

interests of nU'vigation and ilie level of bOli.ndary wMera 011both sides (If the boundarymay possibly be affected, and tbat tbe ~aid application tovers malters connected withthe IDYestigntion directed by tbe Enid (eiarence to t.he said commission under ArticleIX of the said treaty. It thus nppears desirable that the snid application of theGreater -Winnipeg Water District relatiw to the use of tile Witters of hoal Lab~ shouldbe considered and dealt with by the Interll

14 GREATEn WINNIl'EG WATElt DISl'J1!DX.

Exhibit B into fore.e. It was delir\~eduutil. a ToL.e f the electorsunder a referendum coul i be tnk" D, .find the governor gave hisconsent.

('Ihn document referred to is copied in the l'eMrd in full, ASfollows:)

{'fhc :'.!a1'.ilt.obaGa.'llte. 1'ub115l;~dby authority.)

Pno\"'n;;c.e OF lliNIWD.4,Winnipeg, Satu:rday, J1me 21 1918.

D. . (4Ineron, lioutenant governor, Caplida, Province oi Man.itoba; J. II. IIowdcn,attorney gell('Tali George the Fiftht by the gra

GREA.TERWINNIPEG WATER DISTRICT, 15hereinafter caJled "the eorpo~til)ll," and of ~he iuhnbit.al\ts of the said ci y .. the eoc-porntion way Jay, buiJd, construct. equip, and maiutain a line (Jf conduit oqJipe {romthe city of Winnipeg, ext.eniling ant of t.he Proviu('e of Manitoba :md iuto tiny otherProvluce; and lor the effectual use !lnd operation of lile said conduit or pipe may, (a)at any place or places in conne

16 GREAI'ER WL~NIl'EG' WATER DISTRICT.

15. Such :plao. IJrofile, und book of reference Eha.ll be submitted to the mini6~ ofpublic 'worKs vbo,:if satisfied therewi Lh,nmy sanctiClu tile same, and th.ereupon such],Jan ptofile, and book of )'efcren c shall be deposited Witil the lleJ)(Il'j,ment of pnbliworks.

(2) Defor> sanctioning s1:ch plnn, profile, l\lld book of reference Lbe m.inisler ofpublie worb shall be satisfied tl)ai public notice of tho intention to apply to bim Jorsuch sanction h..s been published for at least one m(lnili in the Ca}lada Gazelt,c1 in theManitolJl> Gazette, and in two newspaJ?ers 1ublished in tbe I'royinee of Manitobaone of wbkh newspa.pers is publi.

GREATER WI.YNIPEG WATER DISTRICT. 17

2d day of October, 1913. Let me say here, gentlemen, to thosemembers of the commission fmm southof tlle internationnl1ine-you will appreciate it at once from the imilarity of our two consti-tutions-when the oriainal Oanada WaS formed, with lour Pro\-rinces.the natural1"csot1rcc~, Yands forcsts, minerals, ond fisheJ'ies, belongedto the Provinces-tbe four old historical Provinces. I do not saythat at that time that was admitted, because there waS an immenseamount of litigation, extending 'Qnr many years, before it. wns set-tled; bnt it is no\\' settled thnt the Pl'oTInce of Ontario, a 'vell liSQuebec find the eastern Pro,ince-, owned the lands that bclollgedpreviously to the co~c~eration, tll.a.t they retftineu tl:cm, that theydid no~ go to the DommlOn. That Included forests, nJmerals, waters,!\nu the fish, cyon, although in certoin respects the Dominion juris-dict.ion onabled the Dominion GoY('rnment to make TogulMiollS,be nUEC the rio-hLs of nuyigation were eomnutt d to the Domiruonand they coulJ make fishery regulations. That made it necessaryiOl' liS to go to Toronto, to the Province of Ontn.rio, becmlse the uo-~!lnted watershed around our body of waleI' belongs to the Provinceof Ontario. The bed of Shoal Ln,ke belonged to that Province. Ifulincra'!s werc found there, they would luI., the au(.hority togivelicensl's to take' them] find they also issue the license nnd coIlcet thereVOnlHlfor fis}ling pmposes) although the Dominion GovemmenLm.fly make reguhtions, bv 01' ler in council for the preselYi-bOla h:l'vmg a P01!lIlatlon ot {i,000, Fort G::trry h:wlng a population or 3,000, St. :V1W.having a populatIOn or 1.

18 Gl1EATEB Wl1\.l."IPEG 'WATER ms:rnWT.

1.. TJUll-full eompenllatioll be made to t.he Province of 01lUrio and also to aU pliyat~llaru('l; whose lautiS or properties may bl) t:l.k n, ,injuriQusly Ifected, or in !lny waymt{lrfercd willi, but wakr taken wi lin the lRnllS 11croof ?oud considered m rel\' aswnt-t!r is not l}!'OfH.'rty l:U be paid for. . .

2. That lhe dlStl'ict shall nbi.de b\- find conform t(, :llW and an rules, N1?;ulations orcQlldi~{>ns l1'~ardit;g the ascert:tinm?Dt oi the quantity' of wni,"!".being takelt, :\rId asttl tJl~1U!lpcci1on or work~t\lldd)rell:~se5, and the ~!)ner (,f ~!l.lTyJ1lg ouL tlie JlroJlosedworKs that IJ1(:\gOY('rllmellt of ntano lUay at eu I' tUlle Ni ill. to make Or euact l\1 llieI)reroises. '.

3. That tbe water ahall be us d only fw the purpose jor which municipalities andr case of iaililto on the plitt of the sniddi

GREATER 'VI ..'l\-rPEG WATER DISTRIOT. 19

Mt-. OtUrPBBLL. I will try to gin~ you some referellce on th~t.We WQre chiefly l"olyillg upon t.he Dominion st,l1,tutcs for that, to getrid of tha.t difficult '.

?vIr. POW-:ELfj.Thell, if you rely Oll tbe Dominion statutes, whv doyou import the Ontm'io governor end council into it ~ v

Ul'. OA~nmm.L. That was l'eaJly dono because they ha'l"c so muchof the wntel'shNl of the; little lake. It i all a barren and rockycountry and the only thing tllnt has l)('en gl'uutcd is some l)l'OP rtyfor &old mining rjghts, 10 or 15 years ngo.

M;:. POWELL .. And the; oil has never been g!':1uteu?Mr. OA.~.IrELL. There is DO soiL11', POWELL. Does thst apply to Kcnm'n. as well ~..Mr. O.A)[PBELL No. 1Vhen it gets to tlwm there is some natUl'ul

soil.:1\1:1'.POWELL. It may not affect this; it may not have :lny particu-

lar businc:>s ho)'e.Mr. OAM P13ELL. Thnt js chieOy \\'hy we went to Ontario, l)ecause

we want to protect the watershed and to acquiro, for some disto,llceback, at allY rate, frorn the shore of the lake.r quote from section 92, of t.he British rTorth .Americn. act; section

92 suhsection la, is divided into three clauses:In each Province the legL;}llture may exclusivdy make 1:\1)':;iu I'ebtiou to matters

coming Wlthill the elMS oi subject" next hel'ein::titcl' CJlllmcl':ltcd, that is to $ay-1(). I,ocal workJ; aud undertakings, other thmt ;;\lch as :o'e of the following classes:

Line olsterun or oiher fhi].;;; railways; calla};; te!cgn'l)b.>, and other IVork:! ::uld under-takings connectin~ the Proyince with ::my other, or othel':< of the Provinces, or extend-ing beyond the limits of the FlO\'ince. ','

lfr. CASGTIAD;. You do 110t meau to say t.hat a watel'works systemcomes within that definilion ~ .

'I'.ho OUAlRUAN. It is excluded, as I understand.Mr. OA. fP13ELL. It is m;:cluded..Mr. OASGRAIX. Then you go back to the act of the Dominion.'MI. CAMPBELL. Then ,..e go back to thut.Mr. CASGRAIX. There:is nothing in the act of tbe Dominion which

is authorized by that section of the British North America. act.Read t.hat ection again.

Mr. C.

20 GREATER WIN .~rpEG 'WATER DISTRICT.

Mr. POWELli. A case more ~tj'oJ1g1y in support of you arose betwetthe Province of Tova "'cotia and the Pl'QVlllCeof New J3rul1wick ;to peet to a sy'tcm of recln.Ii)ation of marsh lands. It became Jloeasa1'Y to use the 'waters of the Tivor dividing the two Provinces for tbwork, a.nd the court of Nova Scotia uplwJd the action wIDch \\1';taken by virtue of the DOll1iniou act. That ig about as ncar as yccan get t.o your case,

fro C.UfPBELL. I think that would be very cl ,c.Mr. POWELL. But tlJat is not the judgment of a fmal court.

appeals.l\-fr. TUIn\EH. Hnve you t.bought. of this vi w? 'lIDS commi " on

acting under a treat.y betweel1 "Creat Britain and the Unitied t.atlllcli proyides t.hat whene er lh Federal Govemment on either ~i(

of the line uuthorizes the div(\J::iol1or obstruction of boundary \ aterthe matt.er shrtll be referred to this comn: 'sio)!, :).l1d it shnlll1Jlow (di'Sallow. Do you think the imrestigation committed to this canmis. ion lllYolve ihe delieat determination of constitutional que tiOlas between StaLes and Lho Federal Government 01' between t1Dominion and the Provinces in CaJlada'l

Mr, AlIfPBELL. Between the ProTI))ces n.nd t.he munjcipaJilie;such as KCllOl'jb, I llm going to submi~that tlHtL is not realiy t1 corCe1'llof the c()mlllis~ion under the high powers intruste.d to it, unthat if you find that tl1 local jurisdictions, lhe local forums, be:admiIlis'trative fonHllM, like the Province of Ontu.rio, with this broaorder in co't,lJ1cil, or bo it our ll.naruall courts, that any questiobetween two muni ipalities ill Canada i9 for the 10 a1forum t,o dote)mi.ne and that your flUlction arc t.o decid tho question so fur iiS Jhas an int#r:natiollol aspect or purview, and that then you (:f111relcgntall of us back homo Lo :ctHe our own local eli putes. I think youcommi sion wouJd be saddled y..-ith overwork jf you att mpted tsettle qUestiOJ1S of that kind. .

11'. 'fmmrm. That is the way r regard the questions bQtweel1 tbGovcmmcnt of the United States and States on this side of the liD(that this treaty to k it out of tho provi:ocH of a.nybody to que tio;before the cominission the authority of the General Goycnnue.n1Butl of COUl'se if after 01is c:oulUussioll has acted, us a matter of fae!the tmthoritv of the Gl'neral GOY0I11ment on Y01.U side of the lino werinru[fieicnt Co authoriz~ th> ruversiol1, I sui)pose your court, woul.still 11avo a l'.ight t stol? it.

Mr. CAMPBELL. Possiqly SO. 'Mr. TURNER. But it st.ljkcs me fit fil'St b]u. h that Uus corumis!>iOJ

woulcbJOt have a right to disallow it becfi.u~eiti'3 said LheDominion 0Cannda hn.clno right to give its CQIJse!1t.

1fi:. POWELL. In view of thai., I suggest it might be noue (If oubu. jues!>.

1\11'.CAMPl3ELL. I nm llot quite SUl'e, lVII'. Powell, that I catcl1 you.I)oiut. ,\Ve wunt the order from this olllmjS8ioll allowing us to iuk.the,wator, $0 that no one in tho fuhu!:), It:ftel' we hay spent severamillions of lllO)lCY, '1111question OU1'right. I insi ted that we oughto come hero to avoid tbat risk. I at .first wa impressed \\;tb theview t.hat was urged on me, 'Our 0,,,11. Provine can g:i'v(' us ull WIwant." But uftel' we had 0'0110 03 and made Jarge expenditul'esJ isome one could induce t.he p~iticlll pOlvel' at Ottawa or in WashingtOlto su bnut n reference. to yo u and stop us we did not want to be U1 th!l;,

GREATER. WINNIPEG WATER DISTRICT . 21.position, and so we want nll, I think, you could giye us; all we wantis a general power to take water.

Mr. POWELL. What I meant to suggest wus that this commissionwould have Loproceed "ithin Lboline of thi- treaty. They could notconsider the delicaLe ndjustments of power between tho Dominionund the several Pmv1nces.

:Mr. OA~fPBELL. Then I apprebend it c..Xu,ctJ'Yas you do.NIr. POWELL. But if \Ve were to make an order here in 11case where

the Dominion did not ]1l1ye ::tny Tight to give its cowent, bllt whore itre~ted whoUy and exclu;:;iHUY "ith one of the PTonnce.s, I do not sup-pose that would fOl'eclose tbe province of your own courts.

1I1'. OA~LPBELL. No; I do not think it would do that.1\1'. POWELL. There nre a number 01 dements to be con iclercd.

In the .1'8t placo, there is the u.uthority deflncd in the treaty as thoiLuthorily of Canada whatever that may mean. The oth~r is the'apIH'Ovulof thi CODlnU3sioll. Senator Turner says t.hat that elementW~ deal with we do not det\l with the othol'. Let the courts settletbM m.lttCl'.

Mr. CA::'lPBELL. Now, we have put in so far, Mr. Chnirman, thekansmission to your commission of the minister of public worl- thatWe b

22 CrREATER lVl~:XIPEG WATER DJSTIlICT.

PI'ov.ince has under trf?,a,t,y now Il cOllsidel'it])lc portion o{ the I~pwater (list.net Jfom Shoal Lake, 11;1the PfQ\'111Ces of Ont..'\no and lIfamtob,\, J,ncludlllgthe necess:ny concrete lllld steel pipe lines, machinery, n.nd mains, aud tho schemeof water supp1y as report-cd u})on by th.e board of CQu~111tin.g cn~jnCler1! which hM hi!(;nand is bereby :!.dopted (I'ld ~lppr()'\'()d by tho tldmjn.istraUon hoard;

And whereas it will be necee~ary to bomnv 11rirteen lULliou fivo hundred thoUFa:lJddollars ($18,500,000) for 010 ~!lidpurposes;

Now, thercioro, the ailillinistl'!lti ,n bo:),l'd of the Grcat{1l' \Vlmijpeg Waier Diftnhereby enacts:'lS follows:

1. This by-!a.w $hall take effect on the 30th dav oi Odobe!', A. D. 1913.2. '1'110roslJ;l.llbe created a deM of thirteen and Ollc-halfmi1lion dollar;; ($13,500,OOO)

lor said purposes by the isme. !l.nd sale of debent-\I1'CSfor a 5tll)) not oxceeding said.~Oilllt payahlc in rn1.y (40) y\J:>l'S irom ilICit date of ial'uo-M!ll'ch 1, 1914-bC!l.ringmwf('sj; at lmu :md one-b~.H (4t) leI' centum vcr aTUlUlil p:\Yable half-yearly on tlle-fir~!.days of M:>.rchand SepteJ11.hel' in each y al' of and dUl111g the currency of EDiddebentul':es, said dcl.ll'ntUl't's 10 lie in such individua.l alllOunt$ not lc~s than onollillldrcd dollar~ ($100) each, :1ml to be p:\\'Hhle at the chief agencies in 1]10 ci ies ofLondon, England; New York, l1, S. A:; }IO!lt\'cal, 1'01'(11 to, :l.ud Wiunipe!t, Canad3,of ElIch bank a~ the a.drninisll'll1-lo11 bNml may by by-law d

on.eATER WINlIIll'EG W.A:r:En DISl'RICT. 23

ie is sUaclled. TIl debenture" slull cuniall }I promifc t(l pay the principal oi f~iddebeutures and {l,e interest of four and one-baH (,1J,) pCl"centum per anllum half-

7eaTly, '.rue coupo~ shall rc"pective~y be ior the- ~~uiyalent on olle-lmlf ye~'-mt.cre!it on. UVl1>tmclpal SUlllof the d~OeJlttu'e5 to ;vlllcl1 ihey are aila!;bed.

4. There sha.1l be miNd :lll11Un.l1y by a levy upon t.he lands (lxcl\L:oiv~ of buildingsUl the Gtei\wr Winnipeg Water Di~trict and' in the D1:mner and in the pr(lportions pre-scribed by the (\ct.respectin_g ~id .district, for:\ pet"iorl oi thirry-!'ix (36)years, begi.nningwith. tho )'!!ar 1918 and Ondlllg ".th the yeM 1953, the sum 01 one hundred and iUr-aixthou,;:\ud bt hundred and semnty-seven dollars aud ninety-five cents ($156,677.95)to forlD n l'inkin", ftmd !;uili.eient wi til. the cst.imated internsL at four and one-balf (4~)per

~

l\yablC, an also the rum or six hundred and 'o\--en thou:and five hundred dollara$G07,500) in (,llcb oi f:lid tllirty-silC (:l6) yc,w.s to ray the imerest 011~llid Slims at(lur l\nd onehali (,1~)pcr centum per annllm, pa.y:wle hali-yearly on the first. daviS Ot

1rrnrh and September in each oi ,ai.d ye~),t"s. .5. The total of E:lid tW\) l\!lI1ual :;nms, namely, the 5um Qi seyen hlUldred :md sL"ty

i

lSEAL.j .i\1. PETERSON, Cler!:.Mr. CA:lfPBELL. Th{'1'e is it t(lh'f,'1'am, which I hu:vo not with:me) 11

Q'enerull1ppr~eiation of our application, from Go,....Bbw'Of th condition of thesouthern shor~ r.f the Lnk.!? of the Woods ft.l' tho past 18 01' 20 years)the people of llmlheTu )-finncsotr, wDuM w lcomo ROy di'V('rsion thai;would dv.~ tlH'm bad- ill(' hll\1 thtlt hus boen ;;:l1.1bm(>l"l!cd in cons&-quellce ~Clf the lh1J11at Kenora, would they not ~ --

MI'. CAMPBELL I suppose if we asked to haw. 11gl'cnt deal morewat.er they would be qUIt.e willing.

24 GREATER WINJ:\'J:PEG WAT:ER DISTRIOT.

Now, I :lID ill Lhehands of the conumssiOI1. I h~vo 11e gt:'ntlem::mwho could take p~rt of :your tirol', but in view of the discussion sofar about.pow~r It seems to me tht\t the issue would be probllblybettcr deimed If .M!'. .M Lennan acting f01"Kenol'l1 tho only corpc)]'ll.-tio?- ()~.person who is disputitlg our upplicntion, should state hisohJeclIOns.

'.qlo CHAIR),tA.X. Do you consider that the commis 'ien is fficil1.11JTfl~YIS{'.d as to the physical conditions 'with 1'egnrd to thi proposeddlver Ion; that i J ~lSto where Shoal Lake is and what its connectionare,if it is connccL!>cl at an, with tho Lake of the Woods~ Do :routhink t,he comllis~ion would be fully advised w:ith the ey:ic1elee youhave presented ~

l\k CJUlPTIELL. TO; not by the evidence to-day. I thiJlk thecommission know more about it tha.n I enn tell th m.

The ClI.AlRlIIAN. We mny know, but we do not know ollicially intIns cnse. Of CQUl"SO, fl C()Ul't may lw:ve plinl t.einf rllfl,ti n regardingthe facts in a ense, hut he cun not elll his own infcll'm:ltiol1 render adecision.

:Mr. CAlIlI'llELL. I t.hought I would beg letrn>. to cl111 omo of theDominion ofllc('rs.

'Ihs CHA1R~fA.. I thought possibly you woru relying ufon thein{ormnt.ion whi h the COlUIlli sion has outside of the 1'0001'( in thiscase.

]..11'. CA:l.fJ>.HELL. To some extent I will, Mj. Chnil'Illnl1 notwith-standing your nnllonnccm nt at t,hc begillJlill?:, because I do notbelicvo in carryil1g 'coals to Newcastle fOJ"a whol 'winter's supply.But I win try to mal C ('Hough for the r~conl.

l' fr. CASGn.AJK. Mr. Cllmpbel1, will you then state the gTounds uponwhich you corl1C before the commi. ~ion ~ 'That 31 the gl'ounds uponwlnch )-oU rdy to ome bef re the commission ~ iVhy do you comeherc at all? If you l1[lY(>' all these powe.rs from the D0minioJl Gov-el"nmcnt and from th goYcmm('11 of the Province of Ont,ul'io, whrdo :rOU COIllO to U5?

~fr. CAMPBELL. Just for t.his l't'fl on, Mr. Cbairmun, thnt if this beit boundar.)" wnt

GREA:rl

GREA1'E:R WINNIPEG WAl'~ DI TRJCT.26

The CWI-IRMA-N. With reference to this diversion it is the "arneas jt would be if it were proposed t,o div('l't '(.he wuters of RaineyLake, whidl js l), tributnry of tbe Lake of j,bc Woods. It would b'ea diversion of the waters tributary to tho La.ke of 1110WootL, thatgo to form the Lake of t.he Woods. .

.Mr. CASGRAI1,\. With thj ditrol'f'llce, that Rnu1I'Y Luke is a bound-iU'y water.

1\11'. POWELL For pUlvoses of must,ration?TheCllAffiMAN. Yes; fo1' purpose of illustration.Mr. TtmNEp.. Our jmisdictlon is to d{'fm.c ]Joul!dn.ry waLeI' I ltnd

in this prclimin~lI'Y articl to the trea.ty they nrC' defined fit "thewaters from mam shore to main shore of the lakes aJJd rivers :1Ildeonnection watCl\\'nrl OJ' the portions thereof. along which ilie inter-national boundm'Y between t11e United St.ute" nnd Ol'~ Dominion 01Canada passes, iJidudil1g; nil ba.ys, nrms itnd jnl('f,.-; thcJ'('of, bu Hotincluding trihutary water which in thclr Hatu]': 1 rbamlcJ" would 110wjnto such lakes, ri,ers, nnJ ,vatcrwllYS, 01' w1\tC'I'S flowing from ~11chlakes, rivers and ,\';atcrway , or the wat,ors of rivers flowing a.(,l'(I~Sthe boundnrv."

The ut11l0;t. you can sa.y, if thi j not n. pnxt of the LfLke of theWootL, is that it is a. tributary of the Lak of the Wood'. But thissays that t,rjbutnl'io3 shallllot be considered boumhlry wat.N~ f( r thispurpose.

1\11'. CAMPBELL Yes, II it be not a parL of the L:ticc of the Woodsthen it 1Snot ~1houudnl'y wuter. .

}'lr. TtTHNER. You nrc simply lru\ving from a irihuLfll'Y and notdJ'ilwillg from t.he boundary W lters, although it may (kplete t,heboundary wilter:::.

Mr. CAIlIPBELT,. The dinlcultv we felt) hOi\,OVCl' was the OlIO Mr,Powell hns put so pungently, that Our putting a pipe in, when theLake of the 'Woods Was ii, little higher thou our luke, W:1S the sumGas jf we extended tbe pipe into the Luk' of t.he Woods nnd took tb"boundary water which would flow there by necessity through AshRo..pid.

:Mr, 'runxEll. You might ~xt('nd your pipe into the Lake of theWoods find the}'} it would bo a diversion of that lake, How areyou getting rid of this exclm,:ioll here} t1not. including tributury wn.terswhiCh in t.heil: natural channels woultl flow int,o S1.1 'h lakes, river~,and wutel'waysJ or IVa,tel'S flowing ll'{)m such lake'S, rivers, .,no water-ways" ?

111', G~-I,MpnEI.L. r do not t,hink thnt (l, ,"CloY large :Ullount of therainfall that COll1('!) into our lake .,gets into the Lalm of t,he 'Wood .The Luke of i,he 'Yoods fee tis us fLpart of t.he ~cal'. lYe do .scndthem Illorc wai.er than thoy 00 us, hecause tlwte is J_)O ot.her outlet ..But tho 1c-vclis so dose thut we could not. uf1'onJ to {,ako tho r:isk tosay that it, was not an arm or an inlot., find only :l trihu t.ar,)'. r "illnot complain if you decido it is,not a bOllncln.rywnLer and you haveno jurisdiction: but w \vunt cit.l1(')' that d('cision Or an order for us)if the morits cnWlc us. I fUn not desirous of mgiJlg tho quc'si ion of itsbeing f1 boundary wu.tCl'.

Tlie GUAIUMA.'>\. It is an outlet.l( the Idlkc of l.be Woods.Mr. TURNEH. E'i'cl'Y little stream and river thl1t ell t(,l'~ ill to tIle

Lake of tile IV oJs lil i.hat ell e is lill inlet. rrhis hnguage is un-dOl1btcdly inscl'Led 11ere for some purpOSe. It e..xcluc!es"'(1(.C4'8 whidl;

GREATER WIN.c1"IPEG WATER DISTRIOT. 27

altuough they may he fod by the outfLow from a boundary water, a,raTet, not a part of it.

Mr. CAl\fPBELL. If you t!lke waler from an arDl 01' ::Lll inlet, it \yillaffect 'Vcry slowly, Rnd perhaps vcry imperceptibly; it boundtH'Ywater ever so far (tway.

:Ml'. TurrSER. This includes arms and inlet. If you can sustl'.inthe proposition that this is an arDl or an inlet of the LakB of theWooGs) thenltis!1 boundary' water.. Mr. OAi\ll'BELJ.. At times it will1)c a receiving basin frOlll the Lakeof the 'Yoods. It mu t have been to the draft.sman . om ething likei,his, a stream whose source is higher all the time than the lake 01'boundary ~

28

Mr. Tu:nhToER. It says boundary waters not uffecting thQ leycLMr, CAMPBELL. Or 11se.Mr. rrmu\'ER. Ob i:ruction in bOllndary waters.1Ih-.CAMPBELL. y.,re will haVG no obstr'uct,iol)s, I take it, but we will

huye the use {.hat may affect the boundary' water .}lfr. ToRREll. It docs :not luake al1Y (lifl'~rollce wbether it nff cts

tbe boundary water. or no', unless it is boundary ,vuters, becflusethnt cftSe is axpl'c sly excepted by ilia preliminary article of thistrcnty.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it 110 t t1 matter of fact that this djscu. ~i n is allbnscd upon the bYJ?otbcsi that. \\~ do Hot knO\\: a lyLhing fib. utwhah aTe Lhe facts m rega.rd to tUe flow ~ I w. ' 111the I.lnke of theWoods last June when the lu.ke was n.,shigh IlS it has hee11 for mnnyears) and the waters of 'honl Lake were flo-wing into the TAllceof thc Woods.

Mr. MAGRATH. I think tllCY 'rere flo,vilig int.o Shoal Lake. 1'herewerc two CllgU1C(,}'S there who tested it.

The CIIAUt?L'L '. I know when we went up tJ10 e Tapids w weutagainst a preUy heavy current.

Mr. 11'1EY1m. My recollection i,:; that. the w;Iter "'US flowing i,ntoShoal Luke.

:Mr. CAMPB'ELL. I do not know that I can usofull' address thec mmission au)' furt.her on that point, 11l1clI ,yill call Mr. , tew~trt.

The HAlRMAX. Now, :Mr. ampbell, I do not kIlOW wh ilior thisappeals to you or uot, but in our proceedings we have had t,b wit-nesses sworn, ~Uld I think that is the rule we adoptcd; t.hon wcproceeded to the examination, to bring out uch facts as you thinkare IJeCessa .y and essentin.l to Lhc proving of 1.11

GREATER WINNll'J!)G WA.TER DISTRICT. 29

Q, 'YOU inchlde -in that the entire watershed for thllt lake n.ndShoalLake U:Iso~A. I do.

Q. Wbnt i the soparate watershed for Shoul Lake ~A. I haveDot mad 1111,y personal determination of that, but 1 have seen theg1.u'eof 300 square miles stn,tcd in the I'cport of the engjneers fOl' t,heGreater Winnipeg Wl'Iter District.

Q. RaV'o J'ou reason to believe, from your knowledge of the mnpsand, rcp01ts, that tJu\,t is fairly accurate ~A. I bu,ve.

Q. Docs that 360 include the 110 lake surface ~A. I believe so.Q. Will yon describe to the commission, in your own way, Ash

RlfPid and the alternatinl?-if I may Sl.lg~CSttha,t mueh-heights ofth.e water levels in hOlll Lake und La L\.C of the Woods respec-tivQ1:y~-A. It; W'as my impression, from a visit to Ash llapids_, thatsome improYements of the }'!Lpids had been made at some time in thepast, I anl illrJinccl to bclieve thu.t in previous years t.here ,"llS aledge of Tock in the rnpids hi&her than that which existed at the timeof our vHt. 1 am o.]so inclined to believe that Shoal Lake, in astate of :lftturc, was at a higher level than Lake of the Wood:;; tll\tat the present Lime-at the time 0. our visit, at Ie.ast-the wllter ofthe Lake of the Woods was flowlnO' into Shoal Luke hut t.hn.t therewas llot perceptible diIrerenee in c1cvati0l1, and thnt even a chang:ein wind mighthayc rcsulted ill the change in tl)C current between tiletwo lakes.

By ~h. CASGilAIN:Q. Whm was that~-A. In Juno, about the middle of June. The

lake 1nlS quite high.Br :Mr. CA)lPllELL:

Q. How loner wore you there ~-A. We were there just part of anbou~'. I. oun9ccl ~hc channel from a cunoe, and ~lu'ew in a chip. ~osee 111 wruch dIrectIOn the waters seemed to be flowmg. .The veloc'ltywas very slow.

Q. CO'uld you suy whether the movement of the chip wns due tocurrent of wnter or wind 7-A. The mon-ment of the chip, I wouldsay, 'was strictly dno to the movement of the water, inasmuch us wealso not.iced mall pn.Tticles in the water which seemed to be moYin~in the snme direction, and that th chip wus very flat and wouldoffer ycry little resistance. I doubt whether there could be a surfaceC!Ul1'ent in ono direction llnd an undm'current in :mother. I do notsay that is impossible, but I doub whother that condition obtained11t the time.

Q. Thut is an you can say as to whether Shoal Lake i a tributaryoitha Lake of the Wooel ,or whether it Usan arm or an inlet ~-A. }IvpersoDal opinion is that at tht) pl'cscnt.. tinle it is an arm or Itn inlet;that} in a state of nature, it w~ a tributary water.

By the CIL\IlUIAN:Q. What do you mean by "tributary water" ?-A. That it was

fl:owing into Lake of the Wo~ds, that there may have IJ~cn excc'R-tlOuul seasons when tho water ill Lake of the Woods rose higb enoughto flow into hoal Lake, but thnt that condition would be veryoxceptional as compa.r.ed with the conditions prevailing at th.e pre'anttime, due to the cpange in levels of the Luke of the Woods and in thecondition of the Tapids. .

.,-

30 GREATER WINNIPEG WATER DISTlUOT.

Q. What d~stinction do you make between tributary water and auinlet ~-A .. An inlet I 'would consider lli'5 a body of waLer at the snmeelevation 11..'3 the main body of water, and a. tribui ry water a bodyof water wIDell :110""5illt-o t.he main hody, alw1tvs j) ono direction. .

Q. I SUl)POSC in case of floods in rivl;rs liko the Ohio there is abucJ- up in what. are othcnn e tributaries for a11 hut tlln'e or foUl'da}"Sin th ' yeaT ~-A. That coudition, I believe should not influence~hedefulj{'ion of a tl'ibutnr~ ,Yater. PC)'hftPs I ShOl~l~haTe qu.nlifiedl~ by ft, statement to the cHect that exccptIol)al COn(h!lOl~Sof wlUd ortlde, 01' an 'ul'thguake, 01' ally other exW:cmely exceptIOnal. nfltu_rlllphenomenol! would not change til tatu of 11water as to Its bemga tributary 01' an inlet.

By Mr. CASGBAIX: . IQ. Could you l.11 us hom y:Om' ob_I3l'Yittion for how long a tlme

the W'fi t.el' of Lake of the Woods flowed into Shonl L. ke? Could yougivo us, from what you S!\,\y the c, from. your perf'onal observahon,whether dmin? i,bat ,.unnner for a ly period 01 Lime, the wat.ers ofthe Lake of tne \'1oods tlowcd into Shoal Luke ~-A. I could noteyen mttke an intelligent gu(.)ss, although I think a c mputntion could'bo made. In fact, t qnile fu'mly bC'lic'V8computations enn be madeto iudkatu in l), gcmeral way for ,,,hat portion of 1,.heyear the water\\~ould flow into Shoal Lukel and for what portion of the yeaI' itwould flow fl'om'Shoal Lake into Lake of the Woods' tllat the 1ll1-swer would apply only for certai.n specific levels of the Lake of theWoods.

By Mr. GARDNER:Q. What j, the length of the channel bet,,,cen th two bodies of

water, :tpproxin:tn,tely ?-i~..My impr . sion is that there are two nat-row channels some distnncc ap::nt tJUtt the real narrow portion ~ol:1y perhaps n,bout 1~O feetl 01' perhaps 150 feot, long, and tb~t. JtWidens somewhat n eIther SIde.

By t-he CUAlIDJAN:Q. How wide is it at tlle narrowest POillU-A. ~Iy recollection is

in the neigh.borhood of, say, 75 feet. That is merely !1 recollection,not a nlCflSuremcnt.

By Mr. CA:-IPBELL:Q. Did you mcnsure ho'\v deep the wa tel' ,was at the Time, 01' t.he

upper part of the lake below tho Ash Rupid ?-A. I am not surethat I geL your question. We oUllded It right opposite the oldcribwork, und it ,vus about 6 feet,.

Q. Was that the crest of the bed-the highest. point? What Iwn.nt to get a.t is, how deep \va the wate);' at the shallowest part ofthe A h Ral{id ~-A. We made no' extensive soundings. The timewas short. l'wo of the commissioners were with us, and we had per-ha,ps hulf an hour, and we merely ,vent out in a canoe to ta,Ito somesoundings at what seemed to be the controlling section. I would notbe able to say tbat was the controlling section.

By 1\11'. T)OWELL:Q. What is the l)recipitation tiler ~ Is it great or smull in that

l'cgion ~-A. Comparatively speakwg, small; in the neighborhood ofabout 21 inches.

GnEAXER WIN1{IP.EG WArrEll DISTRIOT. 31

q. If 10010001000 SUI>eriiciul feet we}'!) tfl1mn Oli,t of the 'waters inthe xQftion of hoal Lake or Lake of t.he Woods: It would be about160 se~ona-fcet '?-A. Ono hundred supel':fic.iul feet ~ Did you mean100,000,0.00 gullons ~ ,

Q. One hundred milli 1 golIolls.-A. One hundred million gal-lOllS per duy \~'o1l1~ropresont about 150 cubic feet per second.

Q. I made It a little Over 100.1\il'. CAMPBELL. You llr~ Vety close; it is ]57 and u. fraction.}fr. P01\r:flLI . You nrc speaking approximntely, of course ~The WlTXESS. That is 7~ gallon to the cubic loot.

By lIIx. PO'l\""1:LL.Q. That depends OIl which gallon you 1L'le~-A.Yos.

By k1r. OA'llP.DELL:, You .o.l'e taking. the T\ iJ1chc;;tcr 01' _.hnerican gallo111-A. Yes;71 gallons to tho CUbiC foot ..

By 1\[1'. PO'iYELL:Q. :Paking the outflow fro111 Lake of the Vloods at Ken ora, give

11S approximately what that is-how m:tny second-feot ?-.A. Do roumeun'the average oyer fL number of yenrs, 'the averago over one yeur,01' a minimum of one of th(,ITl~

> Q. To.ke the mnXillltLm and minimum flow there during the yeur.-A. Your question is not clear, Judge Powell. .

Q. The ma:dmuDl outtlow at Krnora and the minimum outflo,\v,just 1l1)pro~ately ?-:-A. The maximum, r be]i~:'e, is in the neigh-borhood of 2,000WblC feet per econd. '

Q. That; is, second-feet ?-A .. A.nc1 the minimum ill the neighbor-hood of 2,500 to 3,000 ..

Q. Is t.hnt the :minimum? ,}'h(,1'e mnst be some rnistukp thero.-A. Tho minimum flo'lV tht1t has prevailed during the past yenr is,of couIse, !J, controlled flow and not it natural flow. As lo what thenat;Ul'al minimum flow would be r am not prepared to say.

Q. 1 ulldel'~tllnd you. What would be the (luantity of water t?~twould be avaIlable from a watershed of 360 roI[cs, WIth the prcclpl-tation thore is thero at Shoal Lake ~-A.The amount of water avail-able irom uny watershed is dependent upon so lllany hctors Hlut itls hardly fair to base it ent.irely upon the precipitation. It dcpendsupon the I'dative land and water area in that watershed, aud thechaructc.l' of the watershed, and a good many factors as to geologyand yegetable cover. But, in a general way, I ha\"e made t1 roughestimate in the liu t few clays of what the probable upply would bejll It low-water year, (md I am inclined to believe that it would notexceed in the neighborhood of thirty-five or fOlty millioll gallons perday; that in tbe pu't years for which 1'Oco1'dshave been seemed overthe Rainey Lake watershed there bas not been a low-water year.Basing the ('stima e on the revised records for Rainey Lake watcr-sh.e~, wo ge~ in the neighborhood. of 65,00Q,OOOgallons. But thel111nlnlUm l'aU1fall, I believe, was ll.l tho nClghborhood of 16 or 18iJlch~s Oycr the Rainey lake wn,tershed, as against a mean of onlya.bout 25, iJ1djc~tin15 that there ht s not been a period of.l'~al ~o'\~'\Vll.ter.For example, ltl tne years 1910 and 11)11 on tho ~fiSSlSSlPPl RIverwatp,.l'Sbed I believe there was an average of about 11 inehes of raiu-fal1~or a run-off of about two and a small fraction inches from tbat

32 GRE.ATER WINNIPEG WATE1~DIST:rnCT.

watershed. That) I believe, would give in the ncjo-hborhood of P T-haps twellty~five or thil'Ly million gallo))s from that Shoal Lakewatershed.

Q. Per dny ?-A. Per duy.Q. No\v, to bring t,bewhole t.l:ringto aclimaA, if we take 100,000,000

gallons of wut('J', there would be, gClH:l'UUy speaking, a continuous.nuti]ow from Lake of the Woods into Shoal Lnke, would there JJot,~-A. 'l'hflt would depend on the loyel of the Lake of the Woods a thattime, and wl1Cther or not water had heen stored ill Shoal Lake for thedry season. It might be for mos' of the so ~on, hut I would Dot nyoffhand that that conditioJl would prevail Ovel' tb entire season.

Q, That condition would Fevail, Ml'. Meyer would it not, longas the reef of l'oek was 310t Dare 1U:llong 119 thero w~S a possibiijt)T ofa flow that would he true, would it llot ~-A. I would d~pend uponat whnt time of the year Shoal I..II1ke would l'ccdve most of its SUP])]yand ut wbat time of th' yen!' tho Lake of the Woods received itsmain sUP1~ly:, dt'l)ondil'Jg upon control aboyc.

Q. But III the tate of nature; Or us things nro to-day--A. Wedifferentiate, because t11erc is J10t a natural condition a.t this time.

Q. 'roke thipgs ft.;;; they are to-day, with the present conditioll.'l.Would it not be true thilt, as n g(,lJ~l'al thing, ther-e 'would be 8J.1outflow of water from Lnke of tho \, oods to ~ShOlll Lake jf it wastapped to the extent of 100,000,000 gallons pe.l' day~-A. I 11minclined to believe that ill the, pring tIle water w uld run off fromthe Shoal Lake, wat.ershed, and pour out into t.110 Lake of the Woods,be 'i1use it w'ould ~un off mOro rapleUy lhan fl'om ~h.eTcst oi~LheLakeof the ,-Vcods wa t.CI'Shccl , and tll 'n, fo1' the l't'm:l1nll1gporbon of theseason, pcrhnps eight or ten lllonihs, it would How bade into hoalLaJm.

Q. Then, according to your \~ew, the re"u]t of this undertnlcing,if it is ca.rried out, would be that for ten m(lllths In the ycn.]' therewould be an actual drain on the Lnk of tho Wood of its Wa.ters?-A~' In a dry yen,r-in 1111 exceptionnlly dry yen1'.

Q. And in ol'diuury yeurs who,t would it be about 1-A. In anormal year I nm inclined to think thnt the Shoal Lake wat~rshedwouJd probnbly supply in the ncigllbOJ'hood of 75,000;000 gaJJon.c; perday. Perhaps we flUght to make t.hat mnrgin lnrge, 75,000,000 toIOO,ODO/OOO gallon p r day, in fi Jlol'maJ year.

By Mr. MAGRATH:Q. :JfJ. ~feyel', )70U ,;poko of the upper rapids. Those arc rn.picls, I

imagine, that urQ located llbovc where wc wel'C t.ho time wo were intheta Just June ?-A.. Y (:'S, t.hat is what I tool;: to he the upper rapids.

Q. Where we were~A. And whore we ounded.Q. Where are the othel' rapids if any ~-A. Below.Q. When those rapids ore t,o be ;Bell, wIrich way would the vn.tel'

be fiol~ing ?-A. )~l1ellLhe rapisls are visible ~Q. Yes.-A. Rlllle ~Q. 'Yes.-A. That is laJ.'gcJy n. maJ.,ter of c()JIjecture. It seems to

me it would depend largely 0)1 the stage of the Lake of the Wood. a,ndthe condition of th rapids. At the prcsent time Lhe wat,CJ' :is sodeetJ, 01', mther, ut t.he time of om' -visit it ',,!'IS so d ep, tbat I aminclmed to believe theTo could be 110l'fi.pids, that that is a term thatsurvives the condition of 0. reef somewhere thero tbnt bll.~ beenblasted out,.

O1tEATER WINN'tP&G WATER DISTRICT. 33

Q. Ycm did not hmt!' any f tllOS0 gentlemen who WN'C with liSmaim any ~tntcmcJ1t as to the llnture ~)fII CTn.pill' at thnt point ~-.A.No I did not. I rociI.ll n stntcmQnt lH the g.Hlge l'Ccords, when tholnk:~ was 'lie y high, :hov.rint( that steamboat mell report VCl'y satis-fa.ctor}" condition at Ash Rapids.

Q. Did I nnd('J'sttUld ~on to say thr.t you regard Shonl Ll1.ko itso1fat the present time as an inlet ~-A. At the present time.

Q. Whll.tdoes it lot tho Will))!' inlo ?-A. The Lo.J.;e of tho WoodB, ifI get TOur qnc;'1tiol1.

'Q. }ly interpretation of un in~et \vQ_nldbe som.cthing ilmt ~1l~Swater iu, where the water J1ns'os m. I' e fil'C spanhng of the defil1l-tiol} of boundary ,,':1101'S being a bay or nn urm or an inlet. 1Vl1a.t isin'IDj' luind is this, if yon httve A.boundlll'y water, and if you have fI,body of wnter pas.

GREATER WIN ITIPEG ,VA'IER DISTRIOT.

1:i~ut. Col. POTTEH. 'l'h~t is based 0 the .Am"l'ic, n gaHon. Tho11'1u5h gallon would put. It aLout 20 per ceut more. I made thosefi~rM. .

Mr. \\SGILHi\'. What WQuidLe t.he difference in the totul?L~eut.. Col. POTTER. It would be 20 per cent more. It would be 92

instcn.d of 77.Mr. ASGRAIN. lIow many gallons ~Lieut. Col. POTTER. It would bo 50,000, 00 British gallons.Mr. CASGRAIN. It would not be 100,000,000 ~~ieut. Col. P.o'1'TER. 1rO, not. 100,000,000. I haTe later figures on

thmr report ,,}nch I got alter I made thnt report. I O'otthe l'epol't ofthe water supply engiIiec.>J'ing djvision.

Mr. CA..'\f.P:BELL. Those figures arc correct, 1 2 ccond-feet fon100,000,000 British gallons.

Mr. CASGRAlN, Then for the present) .:.{I'. Crunpb il, the populationof the greate.r 1Yinnip.gdi')tJjct., fi.~ it is, YOll ay woUld take25,000,000 gallons a day'?

1\11'. CAMPBELL. That is all '(c propose to construct for uow. AsmaHer of fact wo nre get.lil1g only about eight and one half million,and we are short of water .

. Lieut .. Col. POTTER. You Ihean you I' finn1 construction a.t WumipegMr. CAlIrPBEr"L. Yes.Lieut. 01. POTTER. From the lake down you arc going t,o make fo

t;he 85,000,000 ~ ,~:fr. C.UrP13ELL. Yes; but only mul,e it it little ahead of om' popu.

lati n. .The OIIAIR!-fAN. If ::\1:1'. McLennan has any que lions to ask .!vir.

.M yer, he will have an opportunity when counsel for the Dominionconcludes.

By Mr. POWEU:Q. Just a moment. :Mr. 1\1eyer, under ruty conditions, if this

additional drainnge ,,'ere allowed thcre would be some times of t,h.eyear, and for it considerable portion of Ule year, a withdrawal of thewaters from the Lal~e of the 1\' oods, would there not ~-A. ThatdiYCl'sion to be 85,000,000 gallons per. day 1

Q. Yes, or even less, becau-e sometimes, you see the water flowsont llow.-A. Under the present eOllditions of the Inke I would sayyes.

~ 11'. POWELL. There would be. Thnt is a11.By Mr. TtJR~En:

Q. 'Would not the question whethet' ,t body of wn.ter H LLilched toa lnrger body of water waS an inlet of tho brgc~ body depend vc1'1largely npon whether the sm[1Jler b dy had any llldcpendcnt sourceof water supply) or whether its water supply came entirely from thelarger body of water ~-A. My own interpretation has been that theeleva-tion would govern rather more thn.u the supply.

Q. Suppose you hn.d n.l)ociy of' wntel' which hiLd no source of supplyexcept the large parent body, with a narrow channel. Would noethe fact that it had no other SOUl'

GR]1!TER WIN NlPEG IVaTER DISTRICT. 35

not~A. .. In my own m!nd I have not liJ?ited. the definition ofIf inlet" to just such bodIes, bu~ have had III mmd more the rel-~'ti.yi:) elevations. That is) take fol' example, Seine River, flowinO'tuto Rl.l.i~teyLake. lIost of the time the water is flowing toward tb~main body of the In.ko, ftnd yet thore nrc fl. number of instances whenfuo;;e WItter" uro practically at the s:tme level as the main body oft1;le lo.kQ. I consider thoso as being .inlet.s, and have considered allbodies of wnt.er connected .to a mam body of water at the sameelevation tlS i1. rortion of that in determining lake area.Sj havo ~oneup i1118h so Me so; into which treams flow to 11, point where tuerewas an. appreci:'!,b1efaU, :md have censideroti that as the area of theb08y of water.

Q. 1 the smaller body had its sole supply from the larger body--A. It. would clearly be an inlet.

By the CllAlR:ll1\N :Q. You {lTe ffilllilinr with hoal Lake, Luke of the vVoods, anti the

topography up there. You are also ftimiliar 11'1th the deunition ofwuat constitutes i1. boundary water in this treaty. In your opinionis Shoal LaIn} a part of the boundary waters between Canau(l. nnd tbeUnited State 1 .

Mr. 04SGRAIN. 1[1'. j\fever's opinion upon that may be yery. vnlml.ble, but I think that [l. question thn,t must be- dctermincti bythe conunis~ion.

The CJLURlLI.N. Certl1inJy.~fr. TuRNER. Ho has a.nswored thi1.t. He sn.ys it is Ibninlet to the

Lalce OT the Wood.s. ,Yo know that is a bouncln,ry water.The WrrNEsn. I have also answered that it was my belief that in

a state of nature it was not an inlet, but was a tributary water.Ey ?I[r. CAllPBELI,:

Q. Excepting at exceptional seasons 1-A.. At exceptiollal seas ODS,for a mall portion of the yen1', which I llitVC excluded llS having 11c1et.ermilling bearing on the definition of ((inlet. "

By the CU..iJJ':.lAN:Q. I want to a,sk you one other question. You are familiar with

tho gucs~ions in rchttion to the Lake of Lhe Wood-, UJld the level ofthe Luke of the \Yoods, submitted to this commis'ion by the Do-minion of Canada und the Government or tho United Stntes on June27, 191'2. Will the proposed diversion in (I,ny way affect the con-clusions of the consulting enoineers) of whih you lue one, i..'l respe tto the answers thn,t should be made by the commission to thesequestions ~-A.I woultl like to make a general stiltement in answerto that question, if I may.

Q. Go n.helld.-A. Till application, I believe, is merely for thet;(tkinlY of wat.er from hOill Lake. Elevations are ~iven thereacco~'~ing to the city of Wi.nnjpe~ dtl,ta, Th.e bottom of tho intakois given as 324 nnd high water IS given u.s 335. Tho constant ob-tained from the Winm.peg o.ffieefor redu,c:ing from city of Winnipe~daLum to sea-level datum 1S 72".06. That makes tbo water level1,063. This is about one foot higher than the records of the pastyeal'S how nctual high W,1.ter to h:we been for morc than 3. few dn,ysat n. time. Extremo l'cconls of hi~h Wt1.Wr go up to about 1,062.5.It is proposed to builti a grn.vity mtake, 'rvlth l1n eleYil.Lion at th~

36 GREATER WIls-mP,EG WATER, DISnnOT.

bottom of 324. In the report, of the consulting engineers it. is seforth that at. the ontrauce there is rocky ground. A c rt,uin llUlOunof rock (''\:('f\,VflLion is included. It is set forth thn,t nbout 37 pccent of the cxcnvation is in the SUlluult Cut,; that thi compriseabout 9 miles of the aqueduct.; thClt the only expensive cODstruttiOJis due to tho long) d"cp cxclwntion at the SUll11Ult Cut; that in ordeto eut down the expense of exc!lvution. the lope. hus bee11 mada"'

GREATERWINl\IPEG WATER DISTRICT. 37

onh lVerO.USO(l1 DCYCl:Lhc1css,it would be obstructing a cortain areafrom this reservoir, flnd in th(1t way affecting tho boundarywaters.Lot me illj ct 11s u.tcment hero lest my position be misinterpreted.I do not foe1 that Wi\.ter could ho put to any better usc thun f01' do-mestic and snnital'Y p1ll'pOSCS for the Greater Winnipeg Wtlter distl'iQtOJ:lmy otl1tW community th:lt would desire to dnrw water from theLuke of Lha Woods w:tt'erslwd.' I do not wunt to be misunderstoodin th position I UIll tllking, because it seems to me that is one of thevery best llSCSt which any wiLter could be pot.

Tho CHAIR)1.i\,l""{. Now, 111'. McI_,cnnan and My. 1bclnncs) you mayinquire.

13y Mr.1LwIN1:\Es:. Q.;Mr, Meycl', would this be a correct sta~emellt~ ~h RapidsIS t.b.c l1allie glYCn to two smnll chutes half a. JUlIe apr-xt, WIth it littloInk~ bctw(}Qn. Is thnt the way it is ~-A. In it geMral way that ismy impression,Q, And the little lake bet;\vecn is known as Lock Lnke, is it not~-A. 1: do llot lmow.

Q. Thon what is the hay with which tlin.t communicatcs ~ That1S known us Ptal'IDigau Bay, is it not ~-A. I om not vcry familiarwith tho l()cal names of those bodil's of wat(>!",i'rrr. Mnclnnes.

Q. (Reiro:ring to map.) A- 1 understand it, coming from ShoalLak:. Loward the Lake 01 the Woods you como to a DfilTOW part, andthen to part of Ash R1pids, then to Loek Ln.ke, then to the remamderof Ash Rapids, [tnd thcm into Ptarmigan B;lY ~A,. Yes, SIT.

Q. nd then Ptal'mig

GREATER WINNIPEG W A.TER DISTRIOT.

called {he ,Yo. tern Peninsula. As to IDensuremenls, it says 50 feeL,vide, v.-rith u depth of water of 4 i'eet G; inches, and a c}1fuUlcl 8 feetwide. Do you Tcmcmber how that is ~ That was in 1897.-A. In ag~DerN way that corresponds very approximately to Lhe comliti .usthat seemed to obtai1l1nst June, not Mowing, hOiYCY0l') offhand, whatthe clevation of the lake wa at that time; and it would be ncc.assaryto have ~hat in order Lo interpret those soundings. .

Q. ThlS bodv of water marked fiS Shoal Luke has n cCl'tam wa.tel'~shed. What ( the nrea of that wutershed ~-A. Thnt, I believe, hasbeen covered by .n previous statement,. I have not measured imyself, but hn.ve seen a fi.gure of 360 squ, ),'c miles giyen in t.he r 'portof the ellgineer~.

Q. Apm-t from any question of water flowing into l' ou of Lake ofthe Woods, t.hut water hed you spe:\k of is a SOUrG8 of ~upp1y forShoal Lake 1-A. OlH~source of supply.

Q. What i~ ilJe other source of supply?-A. Lal{e of ihe \ ood .Q. Does water flow in and out ~"":"'A.. Yes.}\fro MAcImms. :Mr, hu.i1'luun, instead of that purt of tho map

reiening io this, I will put in tho whole map hore, which j describe(l,us :1 mnp of the northern PUTt. of the Lake of the Wood und ~hoa.lLake, by tho Province of Ontario, ~cale 1 milo to an iuch, 1911. Iwill alsoJmt in a very excellent map prcprued by the geological SUfyeyof Calla a, described fl.: "Geological and topogl'uphienl mnp of t.he,nort-hem pftl't of Lake of tho Woods, 1897.' This scale is 2 mil S tothe inch. Shoal Lak is thoro described as hoal Lake. The com-mission will also not' c tbe lovels that are given there of thoselakes.

By Mr. l.icLES 'AN:Q. Did you note, :hk J\Ieyer, the water level marks eslablished on

the shoro rocks abOYll and below the entrnnce to hoal Luke 'f.--A.Will you kindly explain 1 Do YOti mean those t.hat v.Tere, visible at t.hetime of OUl' vi. it?

Q. Yes.-A. Yes; I did notice them.Q. How do they corro pond ?-A. We t.ook only one measurement:

of a high-wntcr mark, and tJlut was just about 50 feet below the upperrapids, whore the excavation had been mn.dc1 and that" nt the time 0oUt' visit, ~s I l'ecnll it wns nbout 11 01.' 1_ lll(~hes nbove the level 0the water. 8

Q.. Aboye t.he leY(~lof the nller 'f.--A. At t.hat time. YQ. Did you note how it corresponded with the water line as hown

011{he rock below the cntnUlce ?-A. We did not have time to makeany cxtensive ex fdnin fit iOll, so that I would not be in n }>o~il'.ioJlto 1Fan~wel' it. In a gellC'l'lu. way, my impl'c, sion '.'1IlS that it was nboubumform through the l', lnds. .

Q. That is, the llhoye watel' hnc--A. Immediately IIhove.Q. Thut is, tho,t ahoyc the eninmee t.o Shon.1Lako appears i.o you

to hnvc been about the .R1l1C itS it was shown below the cntl'nnce?-A. We did )lot go into Shoal La.ke proper. ,:Vomerely examined the s"marks Tight nt t.he rapids, and I would not make any tnt.c1l1eJlt, l'eln..~I IiLive to the marks in 'honl Lake as compared with mark: in the Lakeof the Woods proper) l;ecau e we lllwe not yet made all cxanuml.,tionof that mattcr. ' '\

GREATER WINNIPEG WAXER DISTRIOT. 39

Q. Did vou not whet.her the bed of this entrance had ft tually 1I0enli.st~rbed or whether what YOll referred to as the excavation would\Jtye been the.reu:oyn1 of bowlders _from.the ~ot.tom of tho st.re3.111 topermit of navlgatlOl1 ?-A. As I s:.1.l~!before, It appeared to me thata'l:cavatioll had been made} or blastmg had been done. That wn: ana,\~pressionto indicate a change in the rapids. I am not ready to snyhat that wa an exc(Jvll.tion of solid rock) or the )'emOYH]of bowlders.

Mr. }COLE...'iNAN. That'i nll:By.Mr.OAMPBELL:

Q. YOll gave Mr. lfacInnes the heights of water as indicated here,tl said tIle datum hnd not heon Mccrtruncd ?-A. Yes, sir.Q. 1:\:1'et.he conditions of the ralnf all and the run-oif to the l'(lser-

rom the !lume in the 1fjsili sippi country thni you refer to fl. in theart ern lake country ncar t1H;1]~nke of the 'Yooc]s ?-A. Xot cntinl '.Q. I. tbere not, owing to its southern latitude, alm'gol' ovaporll tion

proportion t,ol'uinf!lll in the South thnn in the North 'I-A. I wouldat lilca to state:it in proportion to rainfall. The evaporation differsore wi.th tempcTuture than with any other factor. A station in t.ho

:rorthha act,Ultlly giV{,ll 11ighel' temperatures thun in the :M:ississippialley which I q1lOted. .Q. 'l'hat YOH used as an iliustnttion ?-A. As all illuslration that

,.".ehave not yet hnd a period of ex tr 'owly low Wit tel' from thatrvatorshcdj thnt the rdntion might be similar; not that it was 11.(, -mily 2 inches from the honl Lalw watershed.

Q. \'\T_haL is about the relative proportion of the waLersheds ofLak of the Woods and Shoo.! Lake ?-A. As 300 is to 26,000.

11'. PO'rVELL. The ratio i 1 to 72.By 11r. CAMPBELL:

Q. If the wn.ter in both lakes fell l>Clowthe lwigh t of the rock nt.rAsh Rapids) thon the smalllttkc would be ,imply fl reselToid-A.F01: its own run-oIT. -

Q. Could rou rendily tell how much :J, foot in depth in Shoul Lake.'ouI 1 givo ill the wily of nm-oO' for ~l65uny:; ~A. Tho 'tntCml'l1t.,1bclie'Vc, is made by the engineers that 1 loot on ShoRl Lake wouldsUQ.'Ply 850,000 -poopl' nhout cii?,ht and one-haH months.

(~. At 100 gll110ns per ctlpitn.?-A. Yes.Q. One hundred million gllJlons n rloy' and if thut would be {Ol'

~~ mont.lIs, taking it for J 2 a little untlcr 17 in.clws ''>'Ollld do for theyea:r~A. Ye .

Mr. 0",-. IPIlEl_f.. I think hot. is all.~fr.!]_'tJRXER. That m8, sir.

40 GR,EATER WI1'1~IPEO WA:rER DlS'l'RlO:J'.

Q.. A('('ntold that purt of tl)(~channel had h('on blnstedout, und while there wc saw rocks, . om' c:ribw()l'k, rock with shurpcomers, :md it was sunply assumed tha tll-s0 -WCl' par s of thoevidence thnt the chnnne1 lllHl becn allured; and us Mr. Meyer!'tutcd, in the gauge recor l books which '\'\('1' filed with the commissionat Kenora thcl'(~ ;11'('. some l'c{(ll'ellces givi11g tho test.imony of stMtn-boat men with T0gard LoLhe condilion of uuvigntion in the Ash Rap-id::; fit cerktin times, sugg0sLing that, it had been impro\(~(L So thatit \\-iJ1 be inferred from this latLer statement that my knowledgeuhol,lt tho nlterafjoll in the ChaJUld is all of u purdy bearsay hamcter.

By 111'1:.:MAGllA'I'II:Q. Do you remember se,l'ing n sl ructUl'(1 ill t.he channel ahoyc tho

rapids ?-A. A eribv.'ork structure?Q. Yes.-A. Yrs; I hnyo som(' l'ccoill'etion of tbat. 1 might say,

in thnt connection, that I hnd heard thai at certain times it Wl\~Il('e0SSfiTY to assist tbe boats up tl1{l l'npids wi.th n ('ahle,. By the CIL\'IRMA1':

Q. With a ,vinch~A, With a winch; [mel this is anot-her nssump-tion. I assume Bmt perhaps tIl crib'work was purt of the w111ch-OpCHtting mechmusill.

Q. Is J(' not a mutter of inet; that thore arc Lwo J'flpids going fromLake of tbo Woods to Shoal Lake, ~ll\:upper rapids and the lowerrapids ~-A. Do you ask if it is so 1

Q. Y>s.-A. I only know from hearsay. I haye ;\lwa S understoodLhat, . iDee the matter hits been hl'o'\Jght to my atteil ion. But Imight add that I was under the impression that W" W 1'e at t.he lowerl'Ilpids when we were there.

The lL-\lR1\IAN. That wn my implession. .'fhe W1T:NESS. But from 1fr.. :Me:')C'r' t.cstim ClllY, and from. peak-

ing to th~ $tmtlema.n WJlO I understood wus 1,,[1'.Fuertc , I concludethat }.fr. lucyer was concct.. But of tbis I have no definite knowl-edge; that is, by personal examination.

By :Mr. CASGRAIK:Q. Cl1n you Len us 'what is the distance betweC'l1 the body of water

wl1ich is cnl1t'd La]te of the Woods nnd the body of water which is

GB.EI\,'Elt WINJSlWEG WATER DIST1ll0T. 41

clilld. Sboal Lu,1-c, l)~ssiug through these different channels ~:-A. Iw01.1lli like;t9 refer to the mIll? for that. n co.uld be scnIed off:

Q. I wish you wonld scale 1t off. I would like to know, taking anordinary course that you -would t.ake in a canoe or n skiH;, or auykind of conveyance that would take you up there.-A. TIns here IScaUd hoal Li11~eNarrows [indicating on map}. The other is houlLake. I WllS going to take from Ash Rapids to the end of - hoalL~B. .lYti.. lUo!NN.E2. 'rake it from Ptarmigan Bay.

1'11(\WlT_NES$. Take ono measurement thoro, and then see whattlJJ)n:neasuremcnt is. [After measuring.] I would say fTom 5 to 7tnil from Ash Rapids to what might be called the sw lling oul of8hoo,l Lake, as hown un this map.

By 1vf:r. TllRNER:Q. Would the ,yutershcd p.round Shoal Lake he sufficient to main-

tain such a body of water as is thero v.ithout reenforcement, fromLi\l~ of the Woods ~-A. Do you mean at the present time ~

Q. If there was no cOIUH!.ction wilh Lake of tho Woods, would the, n.tershed maintain thut body of water there, the wutershed tributRl'YtoShoalLake alone 7-A, I will answer tha.tin this Wfly: When we wereMming to tho meeting there were certu.in thing to be gotten ready,rold :Mr. "Mey(~rundCl'took to make some 01' the mathematica1 calcu-laJions ",jtll rC17ardto Shonl Lake, in case we weTe asked. Ho has afn.nillin:rity witll some of the areas which I have not/ not havingwOl.ked them over. 0 that I should consider that my present ex-pl'c$sion of opinion would noL be of vnluc. i would like to add tbis,however) that while tho f\,~'oaof the Shoal Ltl.ke watershed, as quotedby 1'>Ir.l.feyer from the Teporl of the engineer,.; for the greater water-ways sy;:.tCl11

1is some 360 miles, tho character of the country, ,'yith

s01pe Qr this underlying Tock formation, would warrant inyesti~ationbemg made to see whether or not, through these underground. sup-'plies) the tu'('.l\ that reuBy contributed to Shoal Lake was not a largerarea, than appctu'ed hy ft dcliuc;d.ion of Wllllt s emed t be Lho water-shed from the present ma.ps.9,. Contour nli\ps'?--A. Yes; the maps here are very meager.'

Q. Y011 Lhollght there might be an underground supply ~-A. Itnou~ht thoro might be an underground supply, h"Uo-rring the charnc-tOl' ()1 that country.

!vir. TUlf);,EIt. What would you say to thllt, .Mr. MeyedMl:. }'IEYEIL I wO\lld sny th!l.t is possible .. I am not Teady to ex-

-press an opinion. as to the probabilit,y of it.~'.(r.TUllr'ER. Eliminating the question of ll. possible unc1ergl'01.llld

supply, would the wll,lCl';:;hcd tTibutru:y to I10al Luke alone be suf:li-cicn~ to l1l!l.lnUWl thn.l lake in its present conditio~~.

1.fr. },(Y,YER. In ~Lpproxjmll.lely Its present condition, I would sayyes.

The C1U.IIOU.N. Gentlemen( \vc will have to take a rcc!) s unLilhalf l)ll-st 10 to-morrow lllornmg. The members of the commissionfrom Canada have [In appointment \'tith the British l~lllbi1.sndor athalf past 4, and it is very nearly that time now, .

(Theroupon, n.t 4.100 clock p. m'l an a.djournIDent was ta.ken untilto-morrow, 'Wednesday, January 14, H)14, at 10.30 o'clock a. Ill.)

42 GREATER WINNIPEG WATEE DISTRICT.

WED ;ESDA1!", Jarl1"W1'Y 14,1914.The c-ommission met, pursuant to adjourmncllt., at 10.30 o'clock

a.m.Pl'csent, nll the members of the counnisslon.Present also, the plIJti(l in lnt.erest heret.ofore noted.

TESTIIrWNY OF MR. JOHN THOMAS JOHNSTON.

Mr. J~H~ TnO?lfAS Jom,sTo~, pl'Oc1ucd as a wi.tness on behalf oftho applicfln t, ha villg been d'uIy sworn by the chairman, \Y~ examined Iand t.pstmed as follows: . .

By ~Ir. OA1\U'llELL:Q. Mr. John ton you nre hydruulic engineer for the water-pow r

brunch of the int('riol' depnl'tn1.0ut. of the Dominion of allada ~-A..Yes.

Q. You have charge of the reports of tIl \ obscl'v(\rs aL the various'water-power stfntions where ol)sel'yutjons nrc mad ~-A. Y s; I havto 11 em"tain extent. They como in to u cvcntunlly.

Q. They nre tnmsmitled to you froJ1'1."\\idcly senttercd points in thDominion' of Canada ~-A. Yos.

Q. Havn you been at tbe foot or the outlet of the Lake of bl1C'Woods yourselH-A. I was there in August, 1911.

Q. vYero you there in pu)'su~mce of your official duties1-A. I,va.sthere in cOnDect,ion ,\,ith a recon.noissuucc trip down tbe "iViunipcgRiver with rE'spcet to the wat.er-power sit;l.1ation in Manitoba OSlc-c.i ally ,

Q. ,Vill you oC'scribe the openings or ~('.apewa,y8or mOll ths of theLake of the Woods, by whicb It discharges Into the WinnipegRjV0d-A. Thero is what. is known as the custern ouU t at whichthe Kenora pow('r plnnt is sitllf1.tcd. Them tbe westt'l'l) outlet islocated a short Ji t.ance to the wt'st of tll castern l)rancb, and it isclosed by the Norman Dnm. The Norman Dam is a regulated dam.It is rock filled, although it is not water-tight. It. is regulated bystop logs, and eflD bo used to rcgubte the lake. Then, farther tothe west, there are two artific.ial outlets Wlljch ha.ve been constructed,blasted through a rock ridge at. Keewatin to opernt.c two mills th('1'O.A.t the lowcr c.nd of that, reach thel'l'\:is !1SlllUll tricl,:1eof 'water cscap .It varje nt diff0ront Limes of the year. It is PtU't.Jy blocked. Til 1'0was an old mill t.h('re at, SOlDO tjll1C in tIle past. His burnt now.

Q. The last-named Olle whel'e t.he old mill was, is not is use 1~A.No; not at present.

Q. Nor is the Norman Dam ill nsc for any industrial purposo'i-A.Not for hydroelect.ric purposes. It i l)r.ing used for TrguiR.tion.

Q. At the Kenora outlet thero :is a nice town theTc, t.b town ofKenora. Do you know fl.l out its populntion ~-A. No; I cun notgive that offhand. '

!Ifr. CAMPBELL. It:is llbout 6,000, i it not, Mr. McLennan ~Mr. McI.JEKNA~. Yes.

By MI. CAMI'BELL:Q. 'rhen who operates the indl.lstrinl works, llnd who tare theYJ

where the. two artificial chnuu('ls fife ~-A. The Tluke of the Woods1filling Co.) 1: think, is the ofllcifil nf1.lUC.

GREA~ER WINl\'TPEG WATER DISTIUOT. 43

Q. What industrial work is the,to '?-A. They ha,e two largo millsthere.Q. Speoking ~enernllYI do you .know ..~ll!lt tho installation powersnro thetG '?-A. rhey l1ave two mills. Mill A ha~ a,bout 1,900 horso-power installed) und mill C hn 2,300 horsepower installed, making 0..'total of 4,200 that is actuallyinslnlled, Those are the only two mills.}f:JlI'B, I think, is in "-omc other part of the country.

Q. Then \vhnt is Ule ",uter consumption nt the Kenora municipalplant'?-A. Kenora bas a powe_!'house there in which there a.re threeunits instnll d nt present, whlch would develop 2,500 horsepower,1:tnd tillC-re-isroom fOT three additional units in the plant as a.t present.constructed, nod that 'will douhle t.he capacity. At pre ent theyw-oulcl r quire about 1,700 second-feet to operate their phnt.

Q. '1'0 lts full capncity'?-A. Its full capacity. That is the largestnlllount they have evcr dra,Vl1 into their 1)Jant-l,700 se ond-fe!3t,When the plant is fully completed they will require double. that.; say3,500 in round numbers.

Q. Your depnrtment takes observations of the collSumption ofwater at the variou jndustriul \vOl'ks, d cs it not 7-A. Yes. Theyare getting complete rccords of all the discparges at the Lake of th'eWoods.Q. What is the general dischnrge at Kenora '?-A. Tho largestrusohru'ge t.hey ha,e ever had has been 1,700 sec.ond-feet, and thatwas only lor, I think, n. pcak load 0110 clay, Usually it runs fromtwelve to thirteen hundred second-foct.

Q. No,,", tako what is l;.:nOWll as the Norman or regulating dam,where t,herc are no industrial plants served by the 'water, but which:you nse for regulating tho outflow. I want you to give me the mini-mum amount that has gone through thcre.-A. The minimum thatwe 'have record of is 2,=380scconcl-feet. That was June 2, 1912.But that is, to a certai.n extent, provisional. That is our presentrecord. n may be altered when we han\ our (01111)leterecords in.But thatJs the 'best wo can give you now.

By the CHAIR::'>fAN:Q. Is Olftt the total number of second-feet of all the outlets ?-A.

:No; going through the i'Ol'man Dam. ,vasting through the dnm. Itwas going through the rock fill, a leak through the rocks.

By ,Mr. CAMPBELl,:Q, 'That dum consists of f\. rock fill wit.h ~O or 24 OPC'J1ings ~-A. I

have not the exact llUlubel' of openings, .Q. It ho. quite a large numbed-A. Yes, there is fl, rock fin in

the centI:'J': circular in shape: un arc of a circle,Q. .And when the stop logs have beon lowered lnto the sluices,and nre doing their duty ns well a they ean. there is still an innnenseleakage through the rod;:: fill of the. main dam 7-A. Yes, there is.It. has never been made waler-tight. '1'11e leakage, of course, ,ariesWlth the elevntion of the water in tile lake. DlU'ing the high waterof tho luke thrrt.lcal;age is as high ns 4,400 second-feet ju t throughthe rock fill, whh a. little going tlll'ough the logs. '

Q. At high water the leakage woulcf'b" 4,400 second-feet ~-A. ycs~8.'3 he dnm is at present.Q. Sometimes it goes above t.hat~. It varies accordi.ng to theheight of the water; the grenter the heIght the more pre:nnc throuO'htlle rock fill 1-A, Yes.

GREATEH WINNIPEG ,\VATER D1S:rRIC1\44

. Q. VVha.tdo the reports ~how a:~to what was lutppenin 0 1 cun TIOt tell

. you exactly what the lake w'as doing at that point. .Q. Can you teU generally what tJte surfa.ce of the Inke was domg,

whet,her filling or Lowering, during JU1).o 1912?- \.. Yes, I can teilyou th~t exuctly. During June, J912} the lake was :filling and iLwas filling all Lhrougb. 1912 at Idaidy rapid Tate.

Q. The water, for the years 1911 'and 1912 up to the autumn of)912, was >,ery low~A. I lhink that is the lowest.. tflgC we had inrec.eDt years. I happened to be out there in 1911 when it was downat its lowest stage.

Q. Speaking generally, that would be the lowest stage since theregulatmg dam was e.stahlished, nbout J 89 ~-A. I can say it wasthe lowe t stage. ince 1907.

Q. Vt'hen your l'ccOl'ds began, yeal' by ye:u'~~A. Yes. . .Q. And during the whole of tho year 19J 2 Lhe wa tCl' was rlSmg

in tJle lake~-A. I ,yould not say during the whole year, but La.kingthe year flS n whole, it was O'radunlly being :fined up.

Q. I do n t mean each day or en.rJlmon h.-A. It nl.l'icd. Some--t.imes for a week it would go down slowly; but, as n rule, thl'OUCfhoutt.he year it rose.

Q. It was at its lowest} I understand} about 'what time7 It lSnot essential It happens to be December, 1911, and January,1912.-A. 1 think it reached its low'est point somewhere aroundk:eptember. 1911.

~ .L'\.s early as that ?-A. Ycs.Q. And then commenced to rise ?-A. Slowly at mst.Q. At that time all the stop _logs, or JICurly all, \V'O'uld be in sO as

to check the wastage ~-A, I w111110t say that from personallrnowl-edge, but naturally they "would be.

Q. SO that to get the normal How from the lake you would haveto compute the arqount of second-feet UUlt the iJlcrcascd hel

GIU~ATETtWINNIPEG WATER DISTRICT. 45

Q I willilot botbor you to look it up. Tho observations there arekak~n 'in ",hat way, ~[r. Johnston ~-A. By the approved practice ofCUrX(}ll.t meter.Q. You measure Lhe--..l. Take a cross section of bhe river and

. h a. stalion.ou havo the width of the ri,er on the surface of the water,

0,11 cross section the bed 1-A. Yes.Q. Altd you got the squnrdcet of the Cl'OS section ~-A. And then

get th.o.rn to of flow through it by means of current meters.Q. 'l'bat is tho upproyt;.d and uniform. p:!lcLicc among hydraulic

engj.l).cel's~-A. Yes;. I t~1l1k we are follo\YlIlg the roost up-to-datepI'notice that 1 posslhle lU L11atregard.

Q. ~o JOl'! ~now whether that i t!_ln same practice on both sidesof th,!?mternatlOnnl hOl1ndnry ~-A. Jl,;xactly the same.

By Mr. POWEJ,L:Q. 1fr, Johnston, I wn,nt to get the total of the discharge through

aJlll-V.P1l1.1es) tho total discharges of all the outlets at the upper end ofthe 1ake,-A. At WhilL claLe ~

Q, 'Iake tho mininl11m in the year, so far as your observations go ~1. I hilve not aU the informnt1on here that would give that, but Icould give ~lPl)l'oA-il1lutcl'ywhat it should c;omc to.

Q. Gh'e it to us I1.pproximu.lcly.-A. El11'ly in Juno, that i~, thetime of the low flow tln'ough the N01'I1lll~ Dam, ,it would approxi-mat.el . comc to 4,500 second-reet. That IS at a tIme when the lakowas risiug all the time, and the 'waters were heing stored.

Q. W1ion I speak n.bol1t outlets T rnenn the Dues of the mill, everyway of escape.-A. Thilt is what I wtts referring to. But that is yeryapproximate. I mn jllst remembering and really approxima.tingwhat was going thrcHl!?h the Keewatin Mills at that time, and alsowhat was goino' througll the Kenorn. plant.

Q. Did yeu cross section 01' makc an estimate of Winnipeg RiverDel0 he e1 ntion of tho Inko, though. ~he channel to the plant \VIiSnot deoE enough to carry the amount of water at that level to theplant. But there was plenty of wutel' coming down thro"Jgh theNorman. Dam at tlia t time.

Q. Then you ,','ou1d say foJ' the present industrial establishmentsanu 1.l..'.ers of:wilteT ,1t the foot. of the l~ko there is an abundance on thosUl'fncfJ~-A. Yes, nny mnonnt.

'By the CH.\m::'lL\~:Q. If devolope 1 to their full cnpnciLy'?-A. E,en if developed to

their full capacity, there. is sufficient.

46 GREATER WI~NTP:EG W tiTER DlSTRIOT.

By 111'. POWELL:Q. Another que tion. Would the withdrawal of 160 econd-feet;;

from the waters of the loke huve nny n~pl'eciahle effect upon t11aundel'takin?,s at the root of the lnke itS Lhey at present e;;,.;st~-A.No, it wOLlfd not: in tills wny: The undl.wt(lking~ at the foot of thelake do not nsc, und have noL used, the fllli flo y of the river, and eVel3_;when their full installation is placed-thf~t is, the Kenora plant;) ilI

GllEA.TER WINNIPEG W A.TEEl DISTRICT. 47

By the ChtrnUIAN:Q. Wl:tflt is tl1G l'elative nmoullt of wat,o1' that passes ou t of the

{}ul;Iet to Lho KellOl'l1.plaut ~A. To the whole ~Q. 'Po the whole, )os.-A. It varies from week to week and .from

month tp month. rQ. .A:r>J)toximnte1y~ -A. ;rho aIDolm~ takon i~rough tho KellOi'1l

ptllUJ, is f1..'(cc1by !.he mnclunol'J; that lS, they slmply toke thl'oughWhat they \\ nnt to d?yolop. . . .

Q. A ~llming that It was doyclo_ped to lts full capacIty, whae wouldbe the T-elu:ti,Q Ulllouut that. would go by Ko~ol'a ~-A. 'fhey would:r quiro ahout 3~500 econd-reet to

48 r,nEATy.R WINl\'TPEG WA:rEn PISTRJOT.

::10 doubt about it tJlat six mOll(,hs woule! covel' the 1 )w-water period11) fillY a,erage yeur.

Q. I am a suming that thoro is some regulation beu)fr carried OIl at!the outlet. So that practically three-quarters of nn illCh, to be rna ho. -maLica1 about it, "without regard .;().pres 1t practica.l pnrpose~, '\vobe aU that would have to be stored, if "e hnd to ask som peewl Wi\,~o be kept for our use~-A. Yes; on th.lt basis tl rce-quartors' ofIt:ch ,y uld be ul! that. woulcl bo required' that lS, assuming thut the111.gh"uteI' for .SIX m(_)nt~ would be f;uch that it would supply yowIth :yOUi' r0.qmrcd qua.ntlt.y.

Q. In the lake thero 1S always roomior th!itmuoh \'t t.ed-A. Y ;:t;three-quarters of tul 1nch on (:ho lllkc does not mole any appro inblodifference to any interest. .

Q. The taking of this water hy the Winnipeg J)i"t.rici will not attccllTIrrvigatioll, I assume, adversely?-A. I am not in fi, position 1..0SI cakfor nll'Vigatjoll interest', but thl'ee-qlHuters of fi-ll inch in depth wou]mllke very littlo difference ono way or the ot.her. So 1 do ,not thinnavigation inh'l'csts would be afrected by t.he w:ithdrawal of the water.

Q. A

GDEATER WINNIP,EG 1YATER DISTBI.CT. 49

have 110 reaords yen as to what the a,bsoluLe mi;rimnm has _been, Itl'equires ~n1cul(l.,tion, ang a wry car~ful st;udy Ol th,e opern.tlOn of thestop IoQ'.Sin the- dam, In conJunctlOll WIth the cil charge mCllsnrc-mouih

GREA.TER "IVIN}"lPEG WA.T'EB.DISTRICT.

Lake of the Woo.ds, without Shoul Lake, is, Toughly, 1,400 square~miles; with hoal Lake it. is 1,500 square miles. The stoTngejfacilities of the lake are small in prOp0l'Lion to its area. If tha,hundred square miles was a,t the same le"'Tcl as the lake all the yearound, th n we could. have the Shoal Lake regulation and the Lllk(lof the Woods regulatIOn all operated from t.he Norman Dam. Youwould have the full advanta~e of Shoal Lake. .

Q. By using Lake of the" oods for storuO'e1-A. Yes. If it was aquestion of using Lake of the Woods and :Shoal Lake as storage, itthey ",eTCboth at the SiLme elevation, you wouJd have ju t as muc)i"dvantage; in fnet, it would be bettel: for power pl.lrpOSes to haythem at the same regulation, because we would have that extm 100squa.re !!liles. I rIo not Imow whether I am getting at the point o'q!~re gettmg at or not.

Q. I wiU put it thi way: The fact that by reason of the nano,yCOIDlectiug channel the water is retained ill Shoul Lnke long niter ibas gone down to low water in Ln.kc of the Vvood~) und there is astrong ouiflow from Shoul Lake, does not that materially assjst inthe keepiug up of the lnw le,eIs in Lake of the Woods lmd Lhesupply:ing of water for t.he pO'we1'8 at t.ho lower end ~-A. It doe fiud it does-not. The point. is tills, jf boal Luke werc at the same level, Lake 01the Woods would not go down so fast.. You see. there is a certainamount of water, ll-ccording i.o your theory, being retained back illShoal Lake which otherw1 e would haye been i1\TuilabIe to draw onland the result would be that the lrtke would not have galle dO'W11fast .. Q. But we do not need it so badly until Lake of the Woods gecomparatively low ~-A. No; exactly.

Q. Then we still have water in hoal Lake coming out ~-A.Yes,you do.

Q. SO that. would it not be more advalltllgeous to be getting that. water when ...,.-e need it worst ~A. Yes; it would be au n.dval1t~~iu some ways. It would nocessitate, though, some sort of contl'olJ.ing;works at he outlet of Shoal Lake.

Q. But, naturally, do you not understand t,hat it llOW'operates 1~that way ?-A. It operates jn that way, but I do not think the effect i'Very marked. I tillnk the effect is very small at present.

Q. In speaking of there being abundance of water to upply aU 0the indu tries amI power at tho lower end of the luke) you are sponImg of the present conilitions, are you not ~-A.Yes.

'Q. In fact, I do not know thut you huyc persona.l knowledge since1911. M'o you aware that there nu been a furtber uuit installed l:rRenora ~-A. A fomt.h unit ~

Q. Yesj since 1911.-A. That would make somo difference'tho e figures.

Q. It is in operation to its full eapacity.-A. The plaut itself wi(lnq sta.nd two additional SL"\: in alL

(~. With a minimum capacityoI 5,400, I think1-A_ Yes.Q. Are you llware that during the low-water time to which yo

11o.yo referred, and ,,

GREATER. :y;nrN1l?BG WATER DISTRICT. 51

th'e "'orlllan DaUl. It was not due t.olad:: .of ,\~ater t.hat that,c)..l)enSe,,1aB fltl.:iet:!: it was due to lack of elevatlon 1Il the lake. rho lowwnw in th~ ll.lke:prevented tho ",atel' getting to ~he Kenora plant.Shnply l)y Ifloking !),t the dam :>;hen r was thore I ]\ldged there wereat leas 2000 secp))..

52 GREATEll WI~"l\TIP]j]G WATER DISTnIOl'.

erected for the purpo e of regulating as well ns for the purpose of apower dam. The Ol'igiuallnyout pro,\7jdecl fo:r two power houses, OUIInt each side. I think it provided for eight sluices 1 acting to pOWell inhouses, four au each side. The remaining sluices 'were simply stop- W:-log-controlled luices, which could be used to regulate the Inke f\S W(ls'necessm-y. It was absolutely nccessaTY that a provision lor regula- !tion like that be put in to tnke caTe of the floods'. .t\J

Q. I will 'all your attention to this, a fact of which you may on J1aware. Th Ontario (YO\';'CnllllBnt, after the erection of this darn,made an arrangement with the Keewatin Power Co., the own 'r, bSwhich they allowed them a certain amount for the use of the dam fOl:regulating purposes meantimo until power could be deye1opcd~-.A,Y s; I am aWllre that there i an agreement of that sort.

Q. And I believe it is ~oml11on. knowledge that that power harecentlv changed hands \\'1th the Idea of J(welopmcnt.-A. I hu;vano personal knowledge of that at !In. I have hetll'd something of it;but that is all I know; ju t it rumor.

Q. And you perhaps have heard f the project of developing t.llQp,owel'there at 011CO; at lenst, in the immediate future Y-A. NOi Ihave not heud anythin~ of that.

Q. When lhat I o'\\er 1 developed, it 'will be developed with a yiewto taking the natural flow of that c