Hearing Transcript - 2 September 2003 Afternoon

8/8/2019 Hearing Transcript - 2 September 2003 Afternoon

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7 A. Towards the bottom of the ears.8 Q. Did you check for a pulse?9 A. Yes, checked the carotid pulse, also pupil reaction.10 Q. The pupils of the eyes that is?11 A. Yes, and then my colleague placed the two paddles across12 the chest and in between times the police were taking

13 photographs.14 Q. Can I just check, did the police take photographs before15 or after --16 A. Before. Every time we did something they took another17 photograph.18 Q. Your colleague was Ms Hunt who we have just heard?19 A. Yes.20 Q. Did you feel the skin of the body at all?21 A. Yes, it was pale and clammy.22 Q. You mentioned the injury to the wrist. You saw some23 blood, did you?24 A. There was dried blood across the top, yes.25 Q. Was that congealed or not?

821 A. I did not touch it. It was dried, it started to crack2 like when it goes dry.3 Q. Did you see any items next to the body?4 A. Yes, to the left side above just where the arm was,5 there was a wristwatch, a silver knife with a curved6 blade and a bottle of water.7 Q. And the bottle of water, was that empty or full or --8 A. I think it was empty.9 Q. Was it upright or can you remember?10 A. Yes, it was upright.11 Q. What type of a knife was it?

12 A. I think it was one of those silver quite flat ones with13 like a curved blade, more like a pruning knife.14 Q. What clothes was the man wearing?15 A. It was a dark coloured jacket, sort of a wax type16 jacket, striped shirt, blue and white striped shirt, and17 I think it was jeans.18 Q. And was the top button done up on the shirt or undone?19 A. No, I think the top one was undone.20 Q. Did you notice any other items of clothing nearby?21 A. There was a cap ...(Pause). Yes, there was a flat cap22 on the left of the body, near the head end.23 Q. And were there any stains on the clothes?24 A. Not that I could see apart from on the deceased's right25 knee, there was a bloodstain about 25 mm across.

831 Q. When you say on the right knee, you mean on the2 trousers?3 A. Yes, on the right knee of the trousers.4 Q. Did you yourself do anything to the body?5 A. I unbuttoned the shirt as my colleague was putting the6 electrodes on, and moved the right arm up so we could7 get the electrode down the bottom.8 Q. And once the electrodes had been put on was any activity9 noticed?10 A. No, no. It was just -- no output or anything.11 Q. And what about -- was there any heart activity or12 anything like that?


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13 A. No, nothing.14 Q. Did you have the ability to print out the results on the15 spot?16 A. Yes, I believe my colleague printed three strips out and17 gave those to the police.18 Q. And were any alterations made to the printouts?

19 A. Yes, the time that is printed on the machine because20 they are the never the right time. We always write the21 time across the top of them.22 Q. What was the time that the printout showed before you23 made the alteration?24 A. I cannot remember because the colleague made the time.25 It is usually an hour out.

841 Q. So you put it back or forward an hour to get the right2 time?3 A. Yes, one or the other.4 Q. You checked that against what? How did you know you

5 were putting the right time on?6 A. Against our watches.7 Q. Can you remember at what time death was pronounced?8 A. (Pause). No, I did not actually make a note of the9 time. It would have been what was wrote on the strips.10 Q. It was noted on the strips?11 A. Yes.12 Q. How long were you at the scene altogether?13 A. 5 to 10 minutes.14 Q. Once the printouts had been done, what did you do with15 them?16 A. The police officer took some more pictures and then they17 told us to go back down through the marker posts to the

18 main track.19 Q. Sorry, through the same track you had come up?20 A. Yes.21 Q. Then you go back there to the ambulance; is that right?22 A. Yes.23 Q. When you left were the electrodes still on the body or24 had they been taken off?25 A. No, we left the electrodes on, just removed the wires.

851 Q. Was there any reason for that?2 A. We just -- we always just leave them on.3 Q. And then what did you do after that? You went to the4 ambulance, did you?5 A. We went back up to the ambulance and the police just6 asked us to check the young lady who had actually found7 the body but she was fine. They said she was a bit8 shaken but we had a chat with her and she was fine.9 Q. Is there anything else you would like to say about the10 circumstances leading to Dr Kelly's death?11 A. Just the same as my colleague actually, we was surprised12 there was not more blood on the body if it was an13 arterial bleed.14 MR KNOX: Thank you very much.15 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed Mr Bartlett.16 MR DINGEMANS: Mr Leith, please.17 MR JOHN BARNABUS LEITH (called)18 Examined by MR DINGEMANS


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19 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?20 A. I am John Barnabus Leith.21 Q. What is your occupation?22 A. I am the Secretary of the National Spiritual Assembly of23 the Baha'is of the United Kingdom.24 Q. The Baha'i faith is a religion, is that right?

25 A. That is correct, yes.

861 Q. When did it start?2 A. The Baha'i faith started in the middle of the 19th3 Century in the country now known as Iran and was founded4 by a figure we consider to be a prophet of God who had5 the title of Baha'u'llah or Glory of God.6 Q. What is the Baha'i attitude to other religions?7 A. The Baha'i faith is that all the great religions come8 from the same source, namely from God, so we are very9 happy to work with and welcoming towards people of other10 faiths.

11 Q. Does that include every other religion, Christian,12 Jewish, Muslim?13 A. Yes, all the great religions, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist. We14 believe they all come from the same source. We believe15 there is a historical chain of religions and that16 Baha'u'llah is the latest of the messengers of God.17 Q. We have heard that Dr Kelly, after he converted to the18 Baha'i religion, started reading the Koran. Would that19 be something consistent with the Baha'i religion?20 A. It would. I did not know that until I read Mrs Kelly's21 evidence, but yes, it would be perfectly consistent.22 I know Baha'is are in fact encouraged to read the Koran.23 Q. And also other religious books, the Bible, the Koran?

24 A. Yes indeed, I know that Baha'is read the scriptures of25 all the great religions in addition to our own Baha'i

871 scriptures.2 Q. How many Baha'is are there in the world?3 A. Somewhere between 5 and 6 million. It is difficult to4 have an exact count because many of the Baha'is of the5 world live in very poor countries and statistics are not6 easily kept.7 Q. Is there a formal structure if you are a Baha'i?8 A. Yes, we have. The affairs of our faith are governed by9 elected councils at local level, at national and10 international level. We have no priests or ministers so11 we are not, as has been referred to in some of the12 press, a church. We do not consider ourselves to be13 a church. We do not have an ecclesiastical structure.14 Q. How do you get elected as a member of a local body?15 A. Well, each year on 21st April the Baha'is in each16 locality elect nine of their members to serve on what is17 called the local Spiritual Assembly, which is the local18 governing council for that locality, and their term of19 office is for one year. Those who serve on these bodies20 can be re-elected any number of times. But nobody21 stands for election and there is no canvassing, there is22 no nomination. It is a secret ballot.23 Q. So you just vote for someone else who is in the same24 community as you?


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25 A. Yes, each person in the locality has nine votes, and so

881 they exercise those nine votes; and out of all -- the2 nine people who receive the most votes out of all the3 votes cast serve on the local assembly for that year.

4 Q. And why 21st April? Is that a significant day?5 A. It is a significant day, yes, it marks a particular6 historic occasion in the history of the Baha'i faith.7 Q. Which is?8 A. Which is the Baha'u'llah who had been exiled to Baghdad9 in 1853 from his native Persia announced his mission in10 1863, in other words 10 years after he had arrived in11 Baghdad, he announced his mission to a number of his12 very close followers and associates on that day in 1863.13 Q. What mission did he announce?14 A. That he had come to bring a message from God, that the15 message that God wished the world to have at this16 particular time is that all human beings of whatever

17 ethnic group, whatever creed, whatever language,18 wherever they live in the world are all part of a single19 human family and that the work of this time is to make20 that a reality.21 Q. And if you had been elected on the local level, how22 would one then progress to a national and international23 level?24 A. You use the word "progress", it is not really25 a progression.

891 Q. Sorry.2 A. Because there is no career structure, as it were.

3 Again, the national body is elected by delegates who4 are, in turn, elected by Baha'is at local level. So it5 is a two stage election for the national governing6 council, so that the local Baha'is elect delegates, the7 delegates go to our national convention and there the8 delegates, of whom there are 95, each year vote for the9 national assembly on the same principle as the voting10 for the local Spiritual Assembly.11 Q. And what do you know of Dr Kelly's conversion to the12 Baha'i faith?13 A. Our records show that he became a Baha'i in14 September 1999 in the United States. At first we15 thought that he had become a Baha'i in New York but16 subsequently it became clear that he actually became17 a Baha'i in California; and I understand from what18 I read in The Times that there was a Baha'i in Monterey,19 California.20 Q. If you do not know from your own knowledge ...21 A. I do not know that.22 Q. He became a Baha'i in the United States?23 A. He certainly became a Baha'i in the United States, yes.24 Q. Did he then follow the religion back in Oxfordshire?25 A. Yes did, yes.

901 Q. How did he do that?2 A. He attended meetings organised by the local Spiritual3 Assembly of the Baha'is of the Vale of White Horse.


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4 That local assembly, at that time, covered the whole5 administrative district of the Vale of White Horse.6 Q. Is that one of the 95 districts?7 A. No, this is the local government district of the Vale of8 White Horse. The local assembly covered that whole area9 and they organised the usual range of Baha'i meetings

10 including regular prayer meetings and discussion11 meetings and other such meetings which he attended.12 Q. And did he have any -- was he elected on to the --13 A. He was, yes. He was a member of the local Spiritual14 Assembly of the Vale of White Horse for a time, less15 than a year I think, I am not sure of the exact time.16 Q. That is one of the nine?17 A. He was one of the nine within that locality.18 Q. Did he have any role in --19 A. He served for a time as the treasurer of that local20 Spiritual Assembly.21 Q. How long did he do that for?22 A. I could not tell you the exact length of time but I know

23 it was fairly brief.24 Q. On the Baha'i faith website there is a little heading25 relating to suicide. Has that always been there or was

911 that put up, as it were, after Dr Kelly's death?2 A. May I ask which website?3 Q. It is the baha'i.org.uk. It says this:4 "Baha'i leave questions of forgiveness and judgment5 to God."6 A. That was put up subsequent to Dr Kelly's death.7 Q. To explain the thing?8 A. Correct, yes.

9 Q. If I can just read the extract and ask you to comment on10 it:11 "Suicide is always tragic because it cuts life12 short, but people who suffer hardship and distress13 deserve compassion."14 Can you just help his Lordship with the Baha'i15 attitude to suicide?16 A. Indeed. The act of suicide is condemned in the Baha'i17 writings because it is an undue curtailment of the life18 that should be lived to the full. However, Baha'is and19 the Baha'i institutions do not and never would take20 a condemnatory attitude to people who unfortunately21 commit suicide. Quite the opposite. There would be22 a great deal of sympathy, as indeed there has been in23 the case of Dr Kelly, and Baha'is would pray for the24 progress of the soul of that person as they have for the25 soul of Dr Kelly.

921 Q. And do the Baha'is believe in an afterlife?2 A. Indeed, yes. We see it as a continuation of a single3 process that begins in this life of coming ever closer4 to God, through our normal religious practices of prayer5 and study of the Baha'i scriptures and meditation and6 reflection, and really attempting to live according to7 the Baha'i teachings to the best of our ability.8 Q. I think you wanted to comment on an article in9 a newspaper which claimed that Dr Kelly had spoken about


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10 his work. Did Dr Kelly speak about his work, as far as11 you knew?12 A. He did not, or at least he did not ever in my hearing13 and I understand from the Baha'is in Abingdon that he14 did not at Baha'i meetings talk about his work. He was15 extremely discreet. The particular press comment

16 claimed that he had spoken at a Baha'i meeting17 critically about the September dossier. This was not in18 fact the case. I was at that meeting. It was not19 a meeting organised by the Baha'i local assembly, it was20 privately organised and he was invited to speak to an21 audience of Baha'is and non-Baha'is about his work as22 a weapons inspector in Iraq from 1991 until 1998; and he23 did so with the aid of slides. He did not mention the24 dossier. Nobody asked him about the dossier.25 Q. Did you, yourself, know Dr Kelly?

931 A. I had met him perhaps three maybe four times. I do not

2 claim to have known him well. However, I certainly did3 know him and he came to -- I have a house in Abingdon4 and he came to that house and came to Baha'i meetings5 there, and so to that extent I knew Dr Kelly and engaged6 in conversation with him on those occasions.7 Q. And is there anything else surrounding Dr Kelly's death8 that you can assist his Lordship with?9 A. I would like to say that the Baha'i community extends10 the greatest sympathy to Mrs Kelly and to the Kelly11 family. We do not in any way believe that there is12 anything in the Baha'i teachings or in the life of the13 Baha'i community that would have induced Dr Kelly to14 commit suicide. There were allegations made that the

15 Baha'i faith condones or accepts suicide; this is not16 the case, as I have explained, and so there is -- the17 Baha'i community itself and the Baha'i teachings are18 extremely positive in their ethos, very much to do with19 the affirmation of life and the development of20 qualities, and we do not believe that there is anything21 in the experience that Dr Kelly would have had of the22 community or his study of the Baha'i teachings that23 would have led him to suppose that committing suicide24 was a good act.25 However, of course, as I said, we do extend the

941 greatest sympathy to his family and we are -- you know,2 we are praying for the progress of his soul.3 Q. And is there anything else you would like to say?4 A. No. That is all. Thank you.5 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much indeed.6 A. Thank you, my Lord.7 MR DINGEMANS: Professor Hawton, please.8 PROFESSOR KEITH EDWARD HAWTON (sworn)9 Examined by MR DINGEMANS10 Q. Can you tell his Lordship your full name?11 A. Keith Edward Hawton.12 Q. What is your occupation?13 A. I am a consultant psychiatrist in Oxfordshire Mental14 Health Care Trust in Oxford.15 Q. Do you hold any other posts?


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16 A. I have the title of Professor of Psychiatry which is17 a personal chair from Oxford University.18 Q. And are you a director of any other post?19 A. Yes, I am Director of the Centre for Suicide Research in20 the University Department of Psychiatry in Oxford.21 Q. And your professional qualifications?

22 A. My professional qualifications are Fellow of the Royal23 College of Psychiatrists and Diploma of Psychological24 Medicine. My degrees are Doctor of Science, Doctor of25 Medicine, MA, Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of

951 Surgery.2 Q. How long have you been Director of the Centre for3 Suicide Research at Oxford University?4 A. The centre itself has only been in place for about four5 years but I have been conducting research in this field6 for far longer.7 Q. How long have you been conducting research into suicide?

8 A. I first began in 1973.9 Q. So that is?10 A. 30 years.11 Q. 30 years. Have you received any recognition?12 A. I have had three international awards.13 Q. What were they?14 A. One in 1995 which is the research award of the15 International Association for Suicide Prevention; one in16 2001 from the American Association of Suicidology, which17 is an American term, and one in 2002 from the American18 Foundation for Suicide Prevention, again for research19 activities.20 Q. And I think you were appointed by the solicitors to the

21 Hutton Inquiry to assist in relation to this?22 A. Yes.23 Q. Can you, first of all, give us any general information24 about the reasons for suicide?25 A. Well, I think one important thing to bear in mind is the

961 fact that suicide does not usually result from just one2 factor as it is often portrayed. Research into suicide3 has shown it is often the end point of a series of4 factors some people refer to as the suicidal process,5 and these factors may include life stresses and problems6 obviously, psychiatric disorder, substance misuse, that7 is misuse of alcohol or drugs, certain personality8 characteristics, psychological processes that may9 precede the act, a physical illness can be a factor,10 exposure to suicidal behaviour in other people can be11 important, availability of methods for suicide and also,12 of course, knowledge of these methods can be relevant13 and also certain family background factors, factors to14 do with upbringing and so on.15 Q. Are there any aspects which offer protection against16 suicide?17 A. Yes, we know less about these, but there is certainly18 evidence that having children, particularly young19 children, can offer relative protection. Strong20 religious beliefs can be another factor; and having21 a close confiding relationship, in other words one in


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22 which a person can share their problems with other23 individuals.24 Q. And in terms of gender differences, are there any gender25 differences in the number of people who commit suicide?

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1 A. Suicide in this country and most countries in the world2 is far more common in males than females at roughly the3 ratio of 3 to 1.4 Q. Does the risk increase as you get older?5 A. To a small degree. It used to be that suicide was much6 more common in older people than younger people but7 because of changes in suicide rates in both older people8 which have decreased, and younger people which have9 increased -- I am referring here to males -- there is10 little difference these days in risk in different ages.11 Obviously I am talking in adulthood after puberty.12 Q. You mentioned a relevant factor may be psychiatric13 disorders. Can you explain a bit more about that?

14 A. Well, a number of studies have been conducted of15 suicides in general; and the findings of these are very16 similar in this respect in that something like 9 out of17 10 people obviously with retrospective examination18 appear to have had evidence of psychiatric disorder.19 Q. And what is the most common psychiatric disorder you20 might expect to come across?21 A. That is depression.22 Q. You have also mentioned personality types. What sort of23 personality types are likely to be most at risk?24 A. Well, in younger people it is people who tend to be25 aggressive and to act impulsively, that is without much

981 forethought. In older people we are now getting2 evidence that individuals who are rather perfectionistic3 and somewhat rigid may be more at risk.4 Q. You have mentioned psychological processes. What do you5 mean by a psychological process? What does that mean?6 A. Well, it means styles of thinking or thinking7 processes -- you know people think about things in8 different ways and it refers to particular styles of9 thinking in an individual.10 Q. Right. And what styles of thinking are most associated11 with suicide?12 A. Well, the one for which there is most evidence is the13 tendency to feel hopeless when faced with a difficult14 circumstance.15 Q. Are there any other relevant feelings?16 A. Yes, certainly a sense of feeling trapped, being unable17 to escape from an unbearable situation. Isolation may18 be another factor, either actual isolation in the sense19 of not having people around or relative isolation where20 a person is unable to communicate with those around them21 because of their particular personality style.22 Q. Are there any other additional factors that one might23 consider here?24 A. Well, another important factor is where a person has25 suffered a severe blow to their self esteem, that is

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1 their sense of self worth. Shame can be another factor.2 Sometimes people appear to engage in a suicidal act, and3 I am here including attempting suicide to show other4 people how bad they are feeling, and occasionally there5 seems to be a desire for revenge, that revenge is a part6 of the motivation.

7 Q. You have also mentioned physical illness. How does that8 affect it?9 A. Well the association here is particularly with10 incapacitating disorders, in other words where11 somebody's freedom of movement and so on is severely12 limited; where there is life threatening illness or13 illness which produces chronic pain.14 Q. And are there any other factors which are relevant at15 this stage?16 A. Well, we know that exposure to suicidal behaviour in17 other people may have an influence. This might be18 through the family, through other people around the19 individual or possibly through the media.

20 Q. Does knowing about how you can commit suicide have any21 effect?22 A. It seems to be particularly important knowing how to do23 it, and of course having the availability of methods;24 and as I mentioned in my report, certain occupational25 groups that seem to be at higher risks of suicide all

1001 seem to have ready access to methods for suicide and to2 know about them.3 Q. What are those groups?4 A. Those include farmers, doctors, medical doctors that is,5 dentists, pharmacists and veterinary surgeons.

6 Q. I think you have mentioned some of the protective7 factors. Is suicide always planned in advance?8 A. No, it can be impulsive, that is carried out without9 much thinking beforehand; but this tends to be10 particularly in younger people.11 Q. It is more impulsive in younger people?12 A. Yes.13 Q. And for older people, what is the sort of evidence of14 planning that you can see?15 A. Well, evidence of planning would be, for example, saving16 up medication to carry out an act, deliberately going17 and obtaining a specific method for the act, obviously18 seeking out a place to carry out the act, where one is19 least likely to be disturbed, and things such as20 a person putting their affairs in order, changing their21 will and so on.22 Q. And do you always have to communicate your intention to23 commit suicide? Is there always a note left?24 A. Not at all, no. In recent studies from the25 United Kingdom, somewhere between 40 and 50 per cent of

1011 people who die leave a suicide note or a suicide2 message, it is not always a note.3 Q. So the majority do not leave a note?4 A. That is correct.5 Q. People who commit suicide, do they always intend to6 carry out the act?


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7 A. No, certainly some deaths by suicide appear to be8 unintended, that is the person -- as far as one can9 gather the intention was not to commit suicide. We have10 evidence of this, for example, from people who die from11 overdoses where they do not die immediately and one can12 actually talk to them about their intentions. Certainly

13 in some cases they clearly indicate that was not their14 intention, to die.15 Q. What, just a cry for help, or ...?16 A. Yes, to show desperation, to show other people how bad17 they were feeling and so on, yes.18 Q. Is there always a history of previous attempts of self19 harm or previous attempts at suicide?20 A. No, this is found in about half of all cases of suicide.21 Q. I understand that there are a number of different22 methods of suicide but for fairly obvious reasons you23 probably do not want to go into those.24 A. That is correct.25 Q. Did you form any assessment of whether Dr Kelly's death

1021 was consistent with suicide?2 A. I think all the information we have about his death and3 the circumstances of his death strongly point to his4 death having been by suicide.5 Q. And what would you say drives you to that conclusion?6 A. Well, the first thing is the site in which the death7 occurred. We have heard that it occurred in an isolated8 spot on Harrowdown Hill. In fact it was, as I think you9 have been told, in woodland about 40 or 50 yards off the10 track taken by ramblers. The site is well protected11 from the view of other people.

12 Q. Have you been to the site?13 A. I have visited the site, yes.14 Q. And what did you notice there then?15 A. Well, I noticed, first of all -- what struck me was it16 is a very peaceful spot, a rather beautiful spot and we17 know that it was a favourite -- it was in the area of18 a favourite walk of Dr Kelly with his family.19 Q. What other factors have you considered relevant?20 A. The nature of his injuries is very consistent with an21 act of self cutting. The doctor -- I have read22 Dr Hunt's report, who is the Home Office forensic23 pathologist. I have also seen the photographs of the24 injuries to Dr Kelly's body; and the nature of the25 injuries to his wrist are very consistent with suicide.

1031 Q. Why do you say that? We have heard from some of the2 ambulance personnel who did not themselves see very much3 blood. We have heard from others who did see more4 blood. What is relevant here?5 A. Well I am referring here particularly to the nature of6 the cutting which perhaps I would prefer not to describe7 in detail.8 Q. Right.9 A. But it --10 Q. Perhaps you can just explain why you do not want to11 describe these matters in detail.12 A. Well, one of the concerns I have is that there is now


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13 good evidence that reporting and portrayal of detailed14 methods of suicide in the media can actually sometimes15 facilitate suicide in other people.16 Q. So it is perfectly obvious there are lots of members of17 the press here. If you had to say anything to them18 about the reporting of your evidence today, what would

19 it be?20 A. I think with regard to the specific method of suicide,21 I would prefer that that was kept as general as22 possible.23 Q. For those reasons?24 A. Yes.25 Q. You have talked about the cutting. What else do you

1041 consider to have been consistent with suicide?2 A. Well, the situation or the circumstances in which3 Dr Kelly's body was found are consistent, in that he had4 apparently removed -- his glasses were found by his body

5 in a way -- in a manner suggesting that they had been6 taken off by him, as was his cap; his watch had been7 taken off, was removed from the body.8 Q. What does that indicate?9 A. It suggests that he removed the watch to give him better10 access to be able to carry out the cutting.11 Q. And was there anything else that you saw from the12 pathologist's report that assisted you in your13 conclusion?14 A. Well, the instrument that was used, which I have seen15 a photograph of, and the family, as you know, I think,16 have been shown a copy of a similar instrument, a large17 penknife -- I will call it a penknife, but it is

18 a rather primitive style of penknife -- is very similar19 to one that he had in his drawer in his study, and it20 was one I think you heard yesterday he had had since his21 childhood.22 Q. Yes.23 A. When considering something like this, one obviously has24 to think about whether there could have been some other25 person or persons involved in the act, and the

1051 circumstances suggest that was not the case.2 Q. What, whether some third parties were involved in3 Dr Kelly's death?4 A. Yes.5 Q. And what circumstances do you consider show that there6 were not?7 A. Well, there were no signs of violence on his body other8 than the obvious injury to his wrist that would be in9 keeping with his having been involved in some sort of10 struggle or a violent act. There was no sign11 I understand of trampling down of vegetation and12 undergrowth in the area around his body. So that makes13 it highly unlikely that others could have been or were14 involved.15 Q. We are going to hear from a toxicologist. Have you had16 a chance to read that report?17 A. I have.18 Q. Does that assist you in your determinations?


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19 A. Well, we know that evidence was found in Dr Kelly's body20 and also on his person of him having consumed some21 particular medication.22 Q. Right. And what medication was that?23 A. That is Coproxamol.24 Q. And why does that assist in your determination?

25 A. Well, it in itself is quite a dangerous medication taken

1061 in overdose because it can have particular effects on2 both breathing and also on the heart rhythm.3 LORD HUTTON: Just going back to the knife,4 Professor Hawton, you said it was very similar to one in5 his drawer. Now, we have been told, for very6 understandable reasons, that Mrs Kelly was not shown the7 knife. But when you say "very similar", are you drawing8 the inference that in fact it was probably a knife that9 had been in his drawer, is that what why you say "very10 similar"?

11 A. Yes, I am my Lord.12 LORD HUTTON: Yes, quite. Thank you very much. Yes.13 MR DINGEMANS: We were dealing with the toxicologist's14 report. What do you understand the position to be in15 relation to that Coproxamol?16 A. Well, I understand that the evidence found from blood17 levels and from the contents of Dr Kelly's -- in18 Dr Kelly's stomach suggests that he had absorbed -- he19 had taken approximately 30 tablets -- I am sorry, the20 number of tablets is based on the number that were21 missing from the sheets he had with him.22 Q. Right.23 A. But that he had consumed well in access of a therapeutic

24 dose of Coproxamol and given the blood levels and the25 relatively small amounts in his stomach, although he had

1071 vomited, I believe you have heard evidence he has2 vomited, but this would suggest he had consumed3 Coproxamol some time before death.4 Q. Does that assist you in determining whether or not any5 third party was involved?6 A. Well, for a third party to have been involved in the7 taking of the Coproxamol would, I imagine, have involved8 a struggle. I mean if somebody was forced to take9 a substantial number of tablets, it is difficult to10 believe there would not have been signs of a struggle.11 Q. That is a factor you have borne in mind?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Did you come, then, to any overall conclusion about14 whether or not Dr Kelly had committed suicide?15 A. I think that taking all the evidence together, it is16 well nigh certain that he committed suicide.17 Q. Before I turn to Dr Kelly's psychological state, can18 I just check what information you had available to you19 in producing this report?20 A. Yes. I have had a lot of information available. Shall21 I read --22 Q. Can I just run through that?23 A. Yes.24 Q. First of all you have spoken to the coroner, is that


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25 right?

1081 A. Yes.2 Q. Who was the coroner?3 A. Mr Nicholas Gardiner, the Oxfordshire coroner.

4 Q. I think you have seen a number of statements the family5 made to the police, is that correct?6 A. That is correct.7 Q. I think you have also seen various witness statements8 from Ms Absalom and some of the ambulance personnel?9 A. Yes.10 Q. The report by the forensic toxicologist, we are going to11 hear from him tomorrow?12 A. Yes.13 Q. Have you seen any other reports?14 A. As I said, I have seen the report of the Home Office15 forensic pathologist.16 Q. That is Dr Hunt?

17 A. Yes.18 Q. And have you seen anything from Dr Kelly's GP?19 A. Yes, I have read his statement and also seen a copy of20 his GP records.21 Q. We have heard about e-mails that have been sent by22 Dr Kelly. Did you see those?23 A. E-mails sent -- I saw e-mails sent in some days before24 his death and I have seen e-mails that were sent by him25 on the day of his death or presumed day of his death.

1091 Q. Then I think you have also seen some other police2 statements from other personnel?

3 A. Yes, I have.4 Q. Did you see the notes of his interview? We have seen5 them, on 4th July and 7th July and --6 A. I have seen those, yes.7 Q. -- and 14th July?8 A. That is correct.9 Q. And we have also heard about him giving evidence before10 the Foreign Affairs Committee. Have you seen anything11 relating to that?12 A. I have viewed the video, the full videotape of that.13 Q. I understand you have also conducted some family14 interviews, is that right?15 A. I have interviewed Mrs Kelly and two of the daughters,16 Rachel and Ellen, and also his sister or half sister17 Sarah Pape, yes.18 Q. Have you spoken to anyone from the Baha'i?19 A. I spoke to Wendy Moman(?) who I believe is treasurer of20 the Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the UK.21 Q. Have you discussed this with the police at all?22 A. I have had discussions with Thames Valley Police, yes,23 that is correct.24 Q. And have you seen any materials that they have shown25 you?

1101 A. I have.2 Q. And I think you have also seen Dr Kelly's personnel3 record?


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4 A. I have.5 Q. Sorry, going back to Dr Kelly's psychological state.6 Can you put this in context, as it were, in relation to7 his work?8 A. Well, my understanding is that he had become9 increasingly busy over the two years or so -- this is an

10 approximation -- preceding his death in that work11 appeared to occupy more and more of his time. When he12 was not -- when he was working and in the evenings he13 was frequently telephoned by people from this country14 and from abroad, presumably discussing his work, seeking15 information and so on. So I gained the impression that16 he had become more and more involved in his work and had17 taken virtually no time off from his working activities.18 Q. And was anything reported to you to be an effect on19 Dr Kelly as a result of that?20 A. Well, I think the first indication that was given to me21 was by Dr Kelly's wife, who, in the beginning of 2003 --22 the beginning of this year, began to notice signs of

23 tiredness and strain and she commented that she noticed24 he had begun to look a little older and to have less25 time for his outside interests.

1111 Q. Were there any other factors to set against that?2 A. Yes, I mean there was a particular factor of his3 daughter Ellen's wedding, in February, when I understand4 from all the family members I spoke to that he was in5 tremendous form and full of good humour and gave an6 excellent speech and was witty and so on. So he was7 obviously in reasonable condition then.8 Q. Coming to the end of May, we have obviously heard from

9 Mrs Kelly yesterday.10 A. Hmm.11 Q. What was your understanding of his position?12 A. Well, that he was showing increasing signs of tiredness.13 In fact tiredness is a sort of theme running through the14 account from the family, increasing tiredness. I do not15 know if Mrs Kelly spoke about this yesterday but she16 told me she had become concerned about how he was going17 to cope with his retirement, because work had become18 such a major focus of his life. He was also frustrated19 about not getting back to Iraq, because obviously he had20 spent a tremendous amount of time there. And, you know,21 he was concerned about the people in Iraq and the22 suffering they were experiencing.23 Q. And did you understand the tiredness to improve?24 A. No, I think it -- I was informed that in fact it got25 worse and certainly by mid June all of the family were

1121 aware of this fact.2 Q. And how does that manifest itself?3 A. Well, I think it was particularly in his appearance, in4 that he looked exhausted. On the other hand, he would5 still drive himself to do things like, when he had the6 opportunity, I think you heard yesterday, to cut the7 large lawn at his home, and so on. But I think he got8 particularly tired after that. However, I was also told9 he was still able to walk very vigorously on his walks


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10 with his daughters.11 Q. We heard from Rachel yesterday about a conversation she12 had had with her father about his health.13 A. Yes.14 Q. Do you consider that significant at all?15 A. I do consider it significant. Dr Kelly was a person who

16 did not encourage people to -- including his family --17 probe into how he was feeling and thinking; and I think18 the fact that his daughter, Rachel, felt the need to say19 to him that she was concerned about him is evidence that20 things were not well with him.21 Q. We have also heard some of Dr Kelly's reaction reported22 by Mrs Kelly yesterday. Was there anything in that that23 is relevant?24 A. This is his reaction to --25 Q. The fact that his name is coming out.

1131 A. It seemed to be extremely painful for him. Being a very

2 private person, I think the idea that he would not only3 be questioned but this would be in public and4 televised -- this would be on television, was extremely5 difficult for him.6 Q. And the circumstances of his appearance itself before7 the Foreign Affairs Committee, you have seen the video.8 Is there anything that you can, from an expert9 perspective, help us with?10 A. Well, I watched part of it before I got involved at all11 in the Inquiry; and I remember thinking at the time that12 I was surprised that -- not about the questions he was13 asked but about the style of some of the questions, the14 questioning of someone who was obviously such a senior

15 and important person in his field; and having watched16 the full video, I would confirm my -- you know, I would17 agree, if you like, with the impression that I had18 beforehand.19 There were clearly times during the interview when20 he became uncomfortable and almost seemed a little bit21 confused, I do not mean in a pathological sense, but he22 seemed quite uncertain.23 Q. What were the indications that you, from an expert point24 of view, would look at for that?25 A. Well, in terms of his -- the way he looked, when he

1141 looked down and moved in a slightly uncomfortable way2 and he looked, at times, rather sort of hot and3 flustered, but there were also, I understand,4 environmental circumstances which did not help.5 Q. Yes, we have heard it was a hot day; and we have heard6 that the fans were turned off.7 A. Hmm.8 Q. We have also heard Rachel's description of her father as9 he returned from that. Was there anything in that10 description which has assisted you?11 A. Yes. I think, again, I am relying, obviously, on the12 information -- the information you heard was very13 similar to the information I was given. There were no14 major discrepancies. He seemed to have been very15 disturbed -- distressed, rather, by that hearing. He


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16 gave the impression of having felt belittled by some of17 the questioning; and I gather he expressed, unusually18 for him, a certain degree of anger about a particular19 style of particular questioning that he received.20 She told me that when he came home to her house in21 Oxford where he was staying, he, using her words,

22 appeared to be "shocked, broken and humiliated". This23 was obviously a very, very, very stressful experience24 for him.25 Q. We have also heard about his experience in front of the

1151 ISC on 16th July and Rachel's description of the supper2 they all had that night after Mrs Kelly had come up from3 Oxford, going home to his house on the evening of4 16th July.5 Is there anything in any of those descriptions that6 particularly add to the picture you were developing?7 A. Well, as I understand it, he reported being less

8 disconcerted by the ISC hearing. I think the striking9 point for me was the moment he left Rachel's house when10 she talked about a particularly haunted look in his eye,11 which was somewhat in contrast to how he had been during12 the meal. So it was the point at which he was leaving13 her. Also important, I think, is the fact that he14 arranged to meet her the following evening, the 17th.15 Q. What significance does that have?16 A. Well it suggests to me that it was probably unlikely he17 was thinking of suicide at that point in time.18 Q. Because?19 A. I think having become more aware about the nature of the20 relationship with his daughter, I doubt very much

21 whether he would have arranged to meet her to go for22 a walk knowing that he was likely not to have been alive23 when it came to the point.24 Q. We have heard from Mrs Kelly about what happened on the25 Thursday morning. Is there anything that you take from

1161 those descriptions?2 A. Well, I gained the impression that during that morning3 there was an escalation in his distress, which became4 particularly marked, as I understand it, around late5 morning when he emerged from his study, which apparently6 was unusual for him. He would usually work through,7 after a coffee break, to lunch. I think Mrs Kelly8 described, yesterday, how he went into the sitting room9 and slumped in a chair. That was a particularly unusual10 thing for him to do. So one gains the impression of11 escalating distress during that morning.12 Q. And you have had a chance to look at his e-mails on that13 day?14 A. I have.15 Q. And you have been given phone records from the police or16 told of the phone calls that have been traced?17 A. Yes.18 Q. Was there anything, to you, that assists you in19 determining what escalated the stress?20 A. Well, I understand that around 11.18 he sent a series of21 e-mails to friends and colleagues who had sent him


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22 messages during the days beforehand. He obviously had23 not seen these because he had not been at home and he24 had only gone to his computer that morning. I got the25 impression he had written a series of e-mails offline

117

1 and then sent them off all at the same time.2 Q. At 11.18.3 A. Yes. And these were to colleagues, ex colleagues and4 professional acquaintances; and the striking thing in5 those messages is that he talked, briefly -- he6 mentioned, briefly, the difficulties that he was facing,7 but he also talked about how he hoped to get back to8 Iraq and continue his work there. So there was also9 a sense of optimism at the same time.10 Q. Can I take you to an illustration of that, at COM/1/10?11 If you look towards the bottom of the screen you can12 see:13 "Dear David,

14 "Sorry about your latest run in with the media.15 I hope you are not getting too much flack. As we both16 know only too well dealing with the media is always17 a balancing act and its always impossible to predict18 which way it will go. When you get it right everybody19 is in favour but when you get it wrong you don't see20 their feet for dust."21 We can see the response:22 "Many thanks for your thoughts. It has been23 difficult. Hopefully it will all blow over by the end24 of the week and I can travel to Baghdad and get on with25 the real work."

1181 Is that the type of e-mail you are referring to?2 A. Absolutely.3 Q. What does that illustrate for you?4 A. Well, it would suggest -- one cannot be definite about5 this -- that at that stage he still had optimism for the6 future and that it was probably unlikely that he had7 ideas or certainly definite ideas of suicide at that8 point in time. Obviously it is conceivable that he was9 presenting a different light in those e-mails but10 I think a logical conclusion would be that he was not11 thinking of suicide at that time.12 LORD HUTTON: I think this may be a convenient time to give13 the stenographers a short break.14 (3.15 pm)15 (Short Break)16 (3.20 pm)17 MR DINGEMANS: We were looking at the e-mails that Dr Kelly18 had received that morning. We know he received some19 Parliamentary Questions following up those that20 Mr Mackinlay had asked him about in the proceedings. Do21 you know whether any other Parliamentary Questions were22 received that morning?23 A. My understanding is that he received four further24 Parliamentary Questions.25 Q. Can I take you to a document COM/1/1? It appears this

119


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1 was received at 9.28. It says:2 "David, more PQs! but plenty of time for reply.3 I expect that Bryan will deal tomorrow.4 "James."5 We know there is a James who shares the office which6 is James Harrison. This has been taken from his

7 computer.8 Can I take you to COM/1/2? It appears to be9 a Parliamentary Question needing to be answered by10 8th September 2003, which I understand is when11 Parliament will sit again, and:12 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether13 his department has complied with Dr David Kelly's terms14 and conditions of employment in handling the matter of15 his discussions with Andrew Gilligan."16 Then there is another one at COM/1/4:17 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, on how18 many occasions Dr David Kelly spoke to BBC Radio 419 defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan; and whether his

20 line managers were aware of this."21 Again it is from Mr Jenkin.22 Then COM/1/6:23 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what (a)24 Civil Service and (b) MoD rules and regulations may have25 been infringed by Dr David Kelly in talking to BBC radio

1201 defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan."2 Then the fourth one is at COM/1/8:3 "To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what4 disciplinary measures his department will take against5 Dr David Kelly."

6 Those were questions which have now been extracted7 from his computer; and Mr Page, the Assistant Chief8 Constable, will give formal evidence about that9 tomorrow.10 LORD HUTTON: From Dr Kelly's computer?11 MR DINGEMANS: My Lord, yes. They appeared to have been12 annexed to the e-mail he received at 9.28. We have also13 heard about the other Parliamentary Questions he was14 answering, about his lists of contacts with journalists.15 Do you think any of those might have been relevant?16 A. Well, I think it is likely that he would have begun to17 perceive that the problem was escalating, the18 difficulties for him were escalating and that the19 prospects for an early resolution of his difficulties20 were diminishing.21 Q. We have heard from Mrs Kelly about how he seemed, going22 to sit down, and then at lunchtime being almost unable23 to speak. What do you derive from that?24 A. Well, that he was extremely preoccupied. I think,25 obviously I am deducing here, but that his inability or

1211 difficulty with communicating with her was that he was2 probably focused on the issues in his mind at that time3 rather than the interaction with his wife.4 Q. And we have also heard how she was unwell, went up to5 bed, thought he had left and he had not left at that6 stage, and then the phone rings again and he had left


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7 for his walk at that time.8 LORD HUTTON: I beg your pardon, can I just ask you9 Professor Hawton, I mean I think you have referred to10 this already, but could you just explain perhaps in11 a little more detail as to whether or not Dr Kelly was12 a communicative sort of man or whether he seemed to keep

13 things to himself and bottled up his worries?14 A. I have used the term in my report of an "intensely15 private man". I think that does describe him. He16 clearly did not like talking about feelings that he had17 and difficulties that he was experiencing; and he was18 a very private man who kept things to himself in that19 respect.20 LORD HUTTON: And even to his family of whom he was21 obviously very fond.22 A. This was a consistent theme reported by all the family23 members that I spoke to.24 LORD HUTTON: Yes.25 MR DINGEMANS: We have also heard from Ruth Absalom, this

1221 morning, who said that he seemed perfectly normal to her2 when she met him about a mile away from their house.3 How is that consistent with the picture that you are4 portraying?5 A. Well, I think it is consistent with the notion that he6 had made a decision before that to end his life or try7 to end his life and certainly it is not an unusual8 experience in people who have died by suicide, for9 people who knew them or came into contact with them10 shortly beforehand to say that they seemed actually11 better than they had been shortly before suicide. And

12 I think it is this -- it is having, in a sense, decided13 on how to deal with the problem that leads to a sort of14 sense of peace and calm.15 Q. So when do you believe that Dr Kelly is likely to have16 formed the intention?17 A. Well, it is my opinion that it is likely that he formed18 the opinion either during the morning, probably later in19 the morning or during the early part of the afternoon,20 before he went on that walk.21 Q. We have heard evidence from a Mr Broucher, who relayed22 a comment about Dr Kelly being found "dead in the woods"23 and he had at the time thought it a throwaway remark.24 He had attributed it, if he attributed it at all, to25 Iraqi agents. Then after hearing of Dr Kelly's suicide

1231 he thought perhaps it was something else. Can you2 assist with that at all?3 A. Well, I gained the impression talking to family members4 about that particular alleged statement that it was not5 a typical -- not that he would say that particularly --6 communicate that, but it was the sort of throwaway7 comment he might make. I have also gathered that it is8 quite possible that it was not made at the time that was9 initially alleged but possibly a year beforehand.10 Q. We have seen now diaries. Mr Broucher thought it was11 February 2003. He did say it was a deep memory pocket.12 We have seen diaries which suggest that he has met


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13 Mr Broucher in February 2002 and Mr Broucher has said14 they only met once. So that may mean it is15 February 2002. Does that assist?16 A. I think it is pure coincidence. I do not think it is17 relevant to understanding Dr Kelly's death.18 LORD HUTTON: May I just go back a little, Professor?

19 Rachel said that when she saw her father on the Tuesday20 that she thought he was having a nervous breakdown. Now21 lay people use the word nervous breakdown of course in22 a very general sense. But would you like to comment on23 that observation by Rachel?24 A. Yes. I asked her to try to, you know, be a bit clearer25 about that; and I gained the impression that what she

1241 was referring to was his clear state of anguish that she2 perceived. I think that was the signs of anguish that3 she perceived. I think that was the principal reason4 for that.

5 LORD HUTTON: Yes, I see. Thank you.6 MR DINGEMANS: Do you consider Dr Kelly had developed any7 sort of psychiatric disorder before his death?8 A. I have thought very carefully about this; and my9 conclusion is that he was not suffering from a severe10 psychiatric disorder.11 Q. We have heard of his weight loss; and we have also heard12 about some of the sparkle going out of his eyes. Are13 those features relevant?14 A. Those are certainly relevant; but other features which15 suggest that he did not have a psychiatric disorder, and16 I am particularly thinking here of depression, is that17 his mood was predominantly reported as being quite

18 upbeat in spite of all his difficulties, except at19 certain times. There was not a sense of a persistent20 depressive mood. His sleep, as far as we can gather21 from the family accounts, was not disturbed and his22 appetite was good.23 Q. And those are contra-indicators, are they?24 A. They are.25 Q. Can we turn to Dr Kelly's personality now? What was

1251 your view of his personality?2 A. Well, the first comment is that he was clearly a highly3 intelligent man, extremely meticulous, a person that4 dealt in facts rather than speculation, who clearly5 believed intensely in what he was doing. I think6 a comment was made by a family member that he really7 thought he was making a difference and a significant8 difference in what he was doing.9 I gained the impression that his identity, his self10 identity, how he perceived himself was increasingly tied11 up to his work. Everyone I have spoken to has said that12 he had a particular sense of loyalty and that trust and13 loyalty were particularly important to him.14 He was also a very courteous man and one not to seek15 the limelight. As I have said earlier, he was intensely16 private with regard to expressions and feelings and this17 was conveyed to other people, so that they did not18 intrude into how he was thinking or feeling. He


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19 virtually never seemed to be angry or to express anger.20 Q. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?21 A. Of course it can be a good thing in certain22 circumstances; but also if one bottles things up this23 can also have a very negative effect on a person.24 Q. We have heard a lot about him dealing in facts. Is that

25 a relevant feature?

1261 A. I think it is relevant in the sense that some reports2 that have been made about what might or might not have3 been said need to be considered against that. I am4 thinking here particularly to people in the media they5 have to be considered against that characteristic. He6 seemed to be an extremely careful sort of person. But7 I think also it did mean that his reliance on facts8 meant that feelings tended to be kept very deep inside9 him.10 Q. We have heard that he was a weapons inspector, it must

11 have put him in all sorts of difficult situations. Was12 that similar to the situation that he found himself in13 towards the end of his life?14 A. No, I think there was an important difference. One has15 heard about the situations he faced, for example, in16 Iraq, while cross-examining people, which sounded to me17 quite terrifying situations. I gather he could cope18 with those extremely well. I think the importance about19 the problems he was facing shortly before his death was20 that these really challenged his identity of himself,21 his self esteem, his self worth, his image of himself as22 a valued and loyal employee and as a significant23 scientist.

24 Q. And in that respect some of the comments reported of him25 being middle level, et cetera, how are they likely to

1271 have affected him?2 A. Well, I can only really go on particularly his wife's3 account that these were really very upsetting for him.4 Q. Was there any other character trait that you considered5 relevant?6 A. He appears to have been somewhat of a perfectionist.7 Q. And what does that actually mean?8 A. I think he liked things to be just so and wanted to be9 sure that, you know, things were correct; but it also10 extended to being a little uncomfortable with change;11 and I am thinking particularly of change within the12 household and so on. His wife talked about how, you13 know, he did not like the house -- she found it quite14 difficult to arrange for changes in the nature of the15 household, the layout of the household; that he liked16 things to remain as they had been.17 Q. And were there any other traits that you consider18 relevant?19 A. Well, he was also -- having said that, you know, he was20 really -- showed flexibility. He had to cope with21 changes to his work schedule, often at the last moment,22 and frustrations with changes in scheduling and so on.23 So while I said he did not like change in his personal24 life, in his work life he seemed to be very adaptable


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25 and able to cope in that way.

1281 Other aspects are -- we have talked a lot about his2 work life. He did have outside interests.3 Q. What do you understand those to have been?

4 A. He was -- well, obviously his family. He had a very5 considerable interest in his family. He was devoted to6 them. But in terms of hobbies and interests, he was7 keen on sports, particularly rugby and athletics. He8 was interested in local history, gardening, horticulture9 events and cribbage, particularly at the local pub,10 although I think a lot of these interests had diminished11 in the sense of him actively pursuing them during the12 last few years because of the demands of work.13 Q. Is that a good or bad thing?14 A. Well, I think combined with the fact that he hardly ever15 took holidays it must have meant that he really did not16 have much relief from the stresses of his work

17 situation.18 Q. Can I turn to Dr Kelly's background? What do you19 understand to have been his relevant background?20 A. Well, he was brought up in Wales in Pontypridd.21 I understand that his father went away to war about six22 months after the marriage to Dr Kelly's mother and that23 when he returned, and I believe this was a couple of24 years or so later, the marital relationship did not25 continue. They did not continue together again after

1291 that. So that Dr Kelly was brought up in a household2 with his grandparents and because his mother was working

3 much of the time, the rearing of Dr Kelly fell to -- the4 responsibility fell to his grandparents, particularly5 his grandmother.6 Q. Did you have any view of those relationships?7 A. Well, I got an impression that he was very close to his8 grandmother and that he spoke fondly of her. I did not9 gain -- was unable to form an impression of his10 relationship with his grandfather.11 Q. And do you know whether Dr Kelly talked very much about12 his mother at all?13 A. I think he spoke about her very little to the family.14 Q. And did you know anything about her background?15 A. I did not know much about her -- I knew little at all16 about her background.17 Q. And was there anything that you have been sent or been18 told about the mother that is relevant?19 A. Well I understand that she died relatively young, that20 she had had a stroke in her 40s and died a year or two21 after that, so I think it was at the age of 47, shortly22 before Dr Kelly's 20th birthday.23 Q. And did that have any effect on Dr Kelly?24 A. I think from what I can gather, and of course he did not25 speak about this too much to people, but one gets the

1301 impression that it caused him quite a lot of difficulty.2 He was about to go to university and I think there were3 comments that he had some difficulties, you know, coping


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4 with his academic work in the first year; and5 I understand -- I cannot say this for sure -- that he6 had to deal with his mother's estate.7 Q. Right. What about Dr Kelly's medical history?8 A. It was unremarkable in the sense that he appeared to be9 a fit and healthy person. He had had very little

10 contact with his general practitioner and in particular11 there was no history of psychiatric problems.12 Q. And we have heard reports that he was becoming tired13 towards the end of his life; is there anything14 physically that might help in that respect?15 A. Yes. The forensic pathologist's report indicates that16 he had quite marked, for his age, narrowing of the17 arteries to his heart, suggestive of him developing18 coronary heart disease, and it is possible that that19 could have contributed to his tiredness.20 Q. What might be another contributory factor?21 A. Clearly the stresses and strains that he was facing.22 Q. Were there any other potential problem areas?

23 A. He worried a little about money. I think it was24 a general trait, you know, that he was concerned that,25 you know, if there are extra expenditures -- I think you

1311 have been told that he was concerned about his pension,2 the size of his pension, because he started pension3 payments somewhat later than usual because of his4 academic -- his working academia. But there is no5 indication that he had major financial problems at the6 time of his death.7 There are obviously concerns that he would have had8 about his wife's physical problems which I think you

9 talked about yesterday. Other than that, I do not think10 there were particular problems or issues.11 Q. And alcohol consumption; was that a problem in his12 history?13 A. Certainly not. He had stopped drinking as I understand14 it at the time of his conversion to the Baha'i faith.15 Q. Previous consumption?16 A. I would describe it from what I have been told as17 a normal social level of consumption.18 Q. What factors would protect Dr Kelly against suicide?19 A. One would obviously be or might have been his family and20 the importance of his family to him. And another might21 have been his faith, his conversion to the Baha'i faith.22 Q. And anything else that would have assisted in protecting23 him against --24 A. Well, if he could have shared his problems with other25 people, I think maybe that could have been a factor that

1321 might have mitigated a suicide.2 Q. Have you considered, now, with the benefit of hindsight3 that we all have, what factors did contribute to4 Dr Kelly's death?5 A. I think that as far as one can deduce, the major factor6 was the severe loss of self esteem, resulting from his7 feeling that people had lost trust in him and from his8 dismay at being exposed to the media.9 Q. And why have you singled that out as a major factor?


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10 A. Well, he talked a lot about it; and I think being such11 a private man, I think this was anathema to him to be12 exposed, you know, publicly in this way. In a sense,13 I think he would have seen it as being publicly14 disgraced.15 Q. What other factors do you think were relevant?

16 A. Well, I think that carrying on that theme, I think that17 he must have begun -- he is likely to have begun to18 think that, first of all, the prospects for continuing19 in his previous work role were diminishing very markedly20 and, indeed, my conjecture that he had begun to fear he21 would lose his job altogether.22 Q. What effect is that likely to have had on him?23 A. Well, I think that would have filled him with a profound24 sense of hopelessness; and that, in a sense, his life's25 work had been not wasted but that had been totally

1331 undermined.

2 LORD HUTTON: Could you just elaborate a little on that,3 Professor, again? As sometimes is the case in this4 Inquiry, witnesses give answers and further explanation5 is obvious, but nonetheless I think it is helpful just6 to have matters fully spelt out. What do you think7 would have caused Dr Kelly to think that the prospects8 of continuing in his work were becoming uncertain?9 A. Well, I think, my Lord, that first of all, there had10 been the letter from Mr Hatfield which had laid out the11 difficulties that Dr Kelly, you know, is alleged to have12 got into.13 LORD HUTTON: Yes.14 A. And in that letter there was also talk that should

15 further matters come to light then disciplinary16 proceedings would need to be instigated.17 LORD HUTTON: Yes.18 A. And then of course there were the Parliamentary19 Questions which we have heard about, which suggested20 that questions were going to be asked about discipline21 in Parliament.22 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Thank you.23 MR DINGEMANS: Were there any other relevant factors?24 A. I think the fact that he could not share his problems25 and feelings with other people, and the fact that he,

1341 according to the accounts I have been given, actually2 increasingly withdrew into himself. So in a sense he3 was getting further and further from being able to share4 the problems with other people, that is extremely5 important.6 Q. Were there any other factors which you considered7 relevant?8 A. Those are the main factors that I consider relevant.9 Q. And is there anything else relating to Dr Kelly's death10 that is relevant that you want to say to his Lordship?11 A. No. No, my Lord.12 LORD HUTTON: Yes.13 MR DINGEMANS: And is there anything further that you would14 like to say?15 A. Yes. I would just like to thank all the people who have


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16 helped me do my investigation into this case, this sad17 case. I would particularly like to thank Dr Kelly's18 family who have all been willing to speak to me and have19 spoken to me extremely openly; and I would like to say20 that I only hope that the healing process following this21 dreadful event can soon begin for them and that they can

22 be allowed to get on with that.23 Q. One question, sorry, that I forgot to ask was this: you24 have had the benefit of judging everything with25 hindsight. You have had the benefit of exploring

1351 Dr Kelly's psychology and his make up in a way that2 no-one could have done at the time.3 A. Hmm.4 Q. If I was a lay person before Dr Kelly's death, would5 I have had any chance of knowing the possible outcomes?6 A. I think for a lay person then certainly not. I think it7 would not have been an outcome one would have predicted.

8 LORD HUTTON: Yes. Thank you very much indeed9 Professor Hawton.10 Does that bring us to the end of the evidence for11 today?12 MR DINGEMANS: Yes, my Lord.13 LORD HUTTON: Thank you very much. We will sit again at14 10.30 tomorrow.15 (3.50 pm)16 (Hearing adjourned until 10.30 am the following day)17181920

2122232425

1361 INDEX2 PAGE3 MS RUTH ABSALOM (called) ......................... 245 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 267 DR MALCOLM WARNER (called) ....................... 689 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 61011 MS LOUISE HOLMES (called) ........................ 81213 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 81415 MR PAUL CHAPMAN (called) ......................... 191617 Examined by MR DINGEMANS. .................... 191819 POLICE CONSTABLE DEAN ANDREW ..................... 3120 FRANKLIN (called)21


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22 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 312324 POLICE CONSTABLE MARTYN SAWYER ................... 4525 (called)

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12 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 4534 DETECTIVE SERGEANT GEOFFREY HUGH ................. 595 WEBB (called)67 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 5989 POLICE CONSTABLE JONATHAN MARTYN ................. 7010 SAWYER (recalled)1112 Examined by MR KNOX (continued) .............. 7013

14 MS VANESSA ELIZABETH HUNT (called) ............... 721516 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 721718 MR DAVID IAN BARTLETT (called) ................... 791920 Examined by MR KNOX .......................... 792122 MR JOHN BARNABUS LEITH (called) .................. 872324 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 8725

1381 PROFESSOR KEITH EDWARD HAWTON .................... 962 (sworn)34 Examined by MR DINGEMANS ..................... 965678910111213141516171819202122232425

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Documents

Hearing Transcript - 2 September 2003 Afternoon