Hack Teaching—A Discussion about Education and Getting ...a way to fix this.” The next thing you know, our conversation and brainstorming turned into ten problems and ten quick

Show NoteS: http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/session224

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SPI 224

Hack Teaching—A Discussion about Education and Getting Results with Mark Barnes

July 27, 2016

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/

http://smartpassiveincome.com/session224


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Pat: ThisistheSmartPassiveIncomePodcastwithPatFlynn,session

numbertwohundredtwenty-four.Herewego.

Announcer: WelcometotheSmartPassiveIncomePodcast,whereit’sallabout

workinghardnow,soyoucansitbackandreapthebenefitslater.

Nowyourhost.HeplaysMinecraftwithhissixyear-oldson,Pat

Flynn.

Pat: What’sup,everybody?Thankyousomuchforjoiningmetoday.

Thisissessiontwohundredtwenty-fouroftheSmartPassive

IncomePodcast.It’sdefinitelygoingtobeworthyourtime,because

wearespeakingwithlongtimeeducatorandbestsellingauthor

MarkBarnes,whoisfromtheHackLearningseries.Youcanfind

himathacklearning.org.Hehasapodcastalsohasabookwitha

tonofpeoplefollowinghiseverystepbecausehe,beingapopular

keynotespeakerandeducationpresenter,he’shelpingpeople

figureouthowtoteachbetter.Athacklearning.orgyoucanlearn

abouthimandhisteamandallthatthey’redoing.

We’regoingtobetalkingaboutsomeinterestingparallelsbetween

howhe’sbeenabletohelpfixeducation,andwhathe’sdoingto

helpfixeducationandhelpingteacherswiththeirstudents,and

helpingthemmakeabiggerimpact,andhowthatcanactually

translateintowhatallofusaredoingonline,throughourblogs,

throughourpodcasts,throughourcourses.There’salotof

similaritiesthere,obviously,becausewe’retryingtoteachpeople.

Wealsoneedtoknowhowwecanbestreachthoseontheother

endwhoaretakingaction,beitourstudentsorpeoplewhoare

takingourcoursesorwhathaveyou.

We’regoingtogetrightintothisinterviewwithMarkBarnesfrom

hacklearning.org.Herewego.Hey,what’sup,everybody?Pathere.

I’mherewithMarkBarnesfromhacklearning.organdHackLearning

books,andHackLearningPodcast.Mark,whatisthisHackLearning

thing?We’regoingtogetintoallthat,butfirstofall,Mark,justthank

youforbeinghere.Ireallyappreciateyourtime.

Mark: Hey,Pat.I’mreallythrilledtobeon.Iappreciateyouhavingme.




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Yeah,HackLearning,sometimesitgetsabadrap.Peopleareused

tothewordhackorhackershavinganegativeconnotation.Iliketo

thinkthatwe’retryingtoputthepositiveinhacking.We’rehacking

learningbytakingprofessionals,andlookingatproblemsthrough

adifferentlevels.We’vegoteducators,teachers,schoolleaders,

thoughtleaderswholookatproblemsinwaysthatmostpeople

don’t,andtakealookatallkindsofassetsandsay,“howcanwe

hackthese?Howcanweputthemtogetherinwaysthatother

peoplearen’tdoing?”That’swhatwe’reupto.

Pat: Ilovethat.Ithinkthere’sdefinitelythistrendasoflatetothinkof

hackinginagoodway.Alotofpeople,IthinkevenFBIagentshave

hiredhackerssothattheycanbetterunderstandwhat’sgoingon

tofightthebadhackers,Iguessyoucouldsay.Maybewe’renot

talkingaboutthatkindofhackinghere,butIthinkhackingisgreat,

becauseit’ssortofashortcuttodoingcertainthings.Forallofus

whoarebuildingbusinessesonline,andlearning,andeducating

others,ifweknowhowtodoitthebetterway,thenthat’sgoingto

beawinforeverybody.Ithinkwe’regoingtodefinitelytalkabout

thattoday.

IalsowanttojustgiveashoutouttoMonicawhoistheonewho

actuallyconnectedusonTwitter.Shehadrandomlytweetedme

oratrepliedme.Shesaid,“@markbarnes19,”whichisyourTwitter

handle,“HaveyoubeenonPatFlynn’spodcast?”That’skindofhow

westartedthisconversation.Ijustwanttothankyou,Monica,and

thankeverybodyelseouttherewhohasjustreferencedorreferred

peopletome.Thisishowwefindthebestguestshereontheshow.

Thankyou,Monica.Mark,thanksagainfortakingthetimetobe

heretoday.

Beforewegetintolearningandhackingandthatkindofthing,just

talkaboutkindofwhatyouweredoingbefore,orwhatisitthatyou

know,andwhydidyougetintowhatyou’redoing?

Mark: Yeah,wellI’maneducator.Ihavebeenmostofmylife.Iwasa

classroomteacherinbothmiddleschoolandhighschoolfor,oh

abouttwenty-threeyears.Ihadthissortofinterestingevolutionas




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ateacher.Inthebeginningofmycareer,foralongtime,probably

adecadeormore,Iwasverysortofoldschool,andmywayorthe

highwayguy,sortofmilitant,andlivedbythetextbookandthe

workbookandallofthat.Itjuststruckme.Isortofhadanepiphany

attheendofaschoolyearwhenmykidswerehatingmeand

failing.Isaid,“Man,there’sgottobeabetterway.”

Anyways,Ijustspentasummersortofreflectingandresearching,

grabbingeverythingIcouldthatwouldhelpmeseeeducation

thoughadifferentlens.Ithinkthat’ssortofwhatultimatelygot

metowhereIamnow,withHackLearning.Ilearnedthatthere’s

differentwaystoeducatekidsandpeopleingeneral.Isortof

rebuiltmyselfasateacher.Thatultimatelychangedeverythingfor

meandformystudents,andledmetowriteafewbooksandgot

metocreatemyownpublishingcompany,wherenowwesortof

takethatidea.We’vecreatedHackLearning.It’sabetterway.

Pat: Iloveit.Hacklearning.orgisthewebsite.Youhaveanumberof

booksthere.Likeyousaid,apodcastaswell.Whataresomeof

thesebooksabout,specifically?

Mark: Theprimaryaudience,Iwouldsayiseducatorsorpeoplewho

are,wecallthemeducationstakeholders.Ithinkalotofparents

readthebookstootodiscussbetterwayswiththeirteachersor

principalswheretheirkidsgotoschool.Wehave,thefirstbook

intheseriesiscalledHackingEducation:10QuickFixesforEvery

School.I’mthecoauthorofthatbook.That’stheonlyoneinthe

seriesthatI’veactuallywritten.Iwrotethatwithsomeonenamed

JenniferGonzalez,whoisnowaneducationentrepreneur.She’sa

bigfanofyours,Pat.

Pat: That’sawesome.

Mark: ShewritesablogcalledCultofPedagogy.She’sverymuchinthis

samelane,sortof,“WhatcanIdotomaketeachingandlearning

better?”SheandIhadafascinatingtalk.Wegotconnectedthough

theblogworldandTwitterandultimatelyVoxer,areallycool

communicationtool.Wejuststartedtalkingabout,“Howcanwe




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fixsomeofthebigproblems?”First,whataretheproblemsthat

wewerehearinginournetworks?Wesaid,“Man,there’sgottobe

awaytofixthis.”Thenextthingyouknow,ourconversationand

brainstormingturnedintotenproblemsandtenquickfixes,and

hackingeducationwasborn.Fromthere,thewholeHackLearning

series.Beyondthatnow,we’vehackedassessment.We’rehacking

leadership,writing,justallkindsofthings.We’vegotgreatstuff

coming.

Pat: That’sgreat.Whataresomeofthosebigproblemsthatyou’re

seeingineducationthatthenyoutalkaboutinthatbook?

Mark: Onethingiswedon’ttackletheglobalconcerns,the

standardization.Imean,wedohaveabookontheCommonCore

andstandardization,butinthatbookwe’renotcoveringthat.We’re

notcoveringpoverty.We’renotsolvingthosekindsofproblems.

Whatwe’relookingataretheeverydayproblemsthateducators

andschoolleadersface.Oneofthem,forexample,istime.Timeis

averypreciouscommodityforeducators.They’llalltellyou,“We

don’thaveenoughofit.Withallofthethingsthathappeninagiven

day.”

Westartedtalkingaboutthat,eveninthebusinessworld.Youthink

aboutwhatpeopledointheprivatesector.Timeisveryprecious.

We’reconsumedwithmeetings,bothaseducatorsandinthe

businessworld.There’salwaysameeting.Wesaid,“Youknow,in

today’sworld,weshouldn’thavetomeetface-to-faceallthetime.

Wecouldveryeasilylookattheassetsthatwehave,theincredible

technology,Cloud-basedplatforms,andwecouldplaceinformation

inthoseplaces,andthenwecouldusebackchannelslikeTwitter

andVoxertocarryontheconversationaboutwhatevertheagenda

is,andwedon’talwayshavetomeetface-to-face.”

That’sone.Infact,that’shackoneinthebook.WecallitMeetMe

intheCloud.Wetalkabouthowwecanreallyeliminatealmostall

face-to-facemeetingswiththeamazingtoolsthatwehaveinthe

digitalworldtoday.




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Pat: Ilovethat.Foreverybodyouttherelistening,Iwantyoutothink

abouthowoftenyoumeetwithotherpeopleinperson,whether

youhaveaninetofive,oryou’reanentrepreneur,andyouhavea

team.EvenmeetinginpersononSkype,thatstilldoestaketime

awayfromotherthingsthatyoucouldbedoing.Iknowpersonally

that,IrememberwhenIwasintheninetofivejobworkingasan

architect,itjustseemedlikethereweremeetingseveryday,and

theywerejustacompletewasteoftime.Iknowthatifwehada

littlebitmoretechnologylikewedotoday,wemighthavebeen

abletosolvealotofthoseproblems.Ithinkalotofusjusthaveto

beconsciousaboutthatfirst.That’sthefirststep.

YouhadmentionedatoolcalledVoxer,whichIactuallygotfamiliar

withwhenIcameonboardasanadvisorforLeadpages.Clay

Collins,theCEOthere,hetoldmetogetonVoxer,becausethat’s

howwewouldcommunicate.Ididn’tunderstandbecauseIhad

neverhadheardofthatbefore.Now,afterusingitforoveracouple

yearsnoworoverayearactually,it’sbeenamazing,becausewe

canleavethesegreatvoicemails,andit’sonourowntime.It’ssort

ofliketexting,butwithyourvoice,butit’sveryorganized.

WealsouseSlack.Idon’tknowifyou’veheardofSlack,Mark,but

Slackhasjustbeenanamazingtooltocutoutthoseone-to-onein

personmeetings,groupmeetings,butalsoemail.Emailisalsoabig

timesuckforpeopletoo.Ilovethatyou’rementioningtoolsalready.

Peoplewhoarelisteningtothisshowlovethosetools.Ithinkifyou

haveateam,andyouwanttotalkvoice-to-voice,Voxer,V-O-X-E-R

isagreatonetouse.Whataresomeoftheotherproblems,besides

thosesortofmeetingtimes,whichisdefinitelyabigone.Ithinkthat

doessavepeoplealotoftime.Whataresomeotherthingsthatyou

foundtobeaproblem?Howdowesolvethem?

Mark: Yeah,wellinHackingEducation,wewantedtoreallytakeproblems

thatfaceteachers,classroomteachers,wheretheywalkinevery

daygoing,“Oh,man,howamIgoingtohandlethistoday?”They

keepcroppingup.Somethingsthatwelookatissimple,like

classroommanagement.That’sonethatcomesupallthetime.

There’ssomanyissueswithclassroommanagement.Wesaid,




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“Well,there’sgottobeareallyeasywaytobuildrapportwithkids.”

Welookedatvariousways,andnotalltechnology.We’retalking

abouttechnology,andIthinkit’sgreattodo.Ithinkwehaveto

lookatthedigitaltoolsthatmakeusbetter.Theonethingabout

HackLearningisitisn’talwaysaboutthedigitaltools.Wewantto

alsosay,“Well,ifsomeonedoesn’thaveimmediateaccesstothe

internetorsocialmediaorsomethinglike,likeTwitterorVoxer,let’s

givethemanotherway.”

Oneofthethingswedoiswetalkaboutcollectingdatathatisn’t

thetraditionaldata.It’snotthetestingdata.Wesaid,“Whatifwe

collectdataonthewholechild?”Oneofthehackswecallthe360

Spreadsheet.Youcanwriteitonasheetofpaper,oryoucould

actuallycreateitonaspreadsheetonacomputerifyouwantedto.

Basically,whatwedoisputcategoriesintherethataremoreabout

peoplethantheyareaboutlearning.Youknow,thisisn’t...Oneof

thethingsaboutHackLearningisitisn’tallbrandnew.Someofit

iswe’retakingthingsthathavealreadyexisted,andwe’resortof

wipingoffsomeofthedust,andmakingthemalittlebetter.

Whatteachersusedtodo,andIthinkmaybesomestilldoisthey

wouldstarttheirschoolyear,anddistributenotecards,indexcards,

andhandthosetothekids,andaskthemtowritealittlebitabout

themselves.Ididitmanyyearsago,decadesago.Theninvariably

whathappensisyoutakethosecards,andyoustuffthemaside,

andyoureallyneverseethemanymore.You’retoobusywith

everythingelsetousethem.

Whatthe360Spreadsheetdoesisit’saquickreference.Youdo

collectthatinformationfromthekids,andyoucoulddoitonan

indexcardoranotebookoronaCloud-basedsystem.Allyoudo

isyousetituplikeachart,andyouputthekids’namesdown.You

haveyourcategorieslikerecreation.Whatdoyoudoforrecreation?

Whatareyourhobbies?Howmanysiblingsdoyouhave?What’s

uniquethatmostpeopledon’tknowaboutyou?

Whathappensisyouhavethissheetinfrontofyouwithagroupof




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kids,andyou’velearnedatonaboutthem.Thatreallyhelpswith

rapport.Wetendineducationtogoaboutclassroommanagement

thewrongway.Theoldcarrotandstick.Wesetuptherulesandsay,

“Ifyoudothiswrong,you’regoingtogetthispunishment.”Well,

whatwe’velearnedbytalkingtogreateducatorsallovertheworld

isthatthebestwaytomanageyourclassroomistogettoknow

kids.Onceyoubuildrapportwiththem,theytendtobeawholelot

lessofaproblembecausetheylikeyou.Theylikethewayyourun

yourclassroom.Theylikethefactthattheyseeyouasmoreasa

someonewhojustdispensesinformation,maybeasamentoranda

friend.

Again,Ithinkthisisoneofthosethingsthatyoucancarryintothe

privatesector.ThisiswhatIpersonallyloveaboutHackLearningis

eventhoughourprimaryaudienceiseducators,Ithinksomanyof

thehacksarereallygoodfortheprivatesectortoo,becausewhen

youthinkofsmallbusiness,wouldn’titbegreatifyougottoknow

everyonewhoworkedforyouinthatpersonalway?Youthinkof

therapportyoucanbuildandthecloserelationshipsyoucanbuild.

Whenyoucandothat,you’vegotpeoplewhowillrunintothewall

foryou.

Pat: Yeah,noIcompletelyagree.Iandmyteam,wedoagoodjobof

keepingeachotherinformedonthingsoutsidethebusiness,on

whatwe’reupto,who’sgettingmarried,wherewe’regoingon

vacation,whatwe’vebeenupto.Wejustkindofhavethatkindof

culture.Thatdefinitelymakestheentirecompanygrow,andjust

beinabettermoodmostofthetime.Idefinitelyagree.That’swhy

Iwantedyouhere,Mark,becausealotofthesethingsthatrelate

specificallytoeducationinthewaythatyou’reteachingandfor

yourprimaryaudience,candefinitelyrelatetowhatwe’redoingtoo.

Intermsofpeopleouttherewhoarelisteningwhohavecourses,

forexample,whohavetheirownstudents,whomaynotbeina

classroomsetting,manyofthemarevirtual.Ithinkoneofthebig

problemsthatwefaceaseducatorsonlineisjustpeopledon’t

alwaystaketheactionthattheyneedtotake.Theyhavethe

contentthereinfrontofthem.Theysignupforthesecourses,




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manyspendinghundredsifnotthousandsofdollars,yetnotbeing

completelymotivatedtogothroughthecourseworkforwhatever

reason.Whataresomethingsthatyou’velearnedthroughyour

yearsofteaching,throughHackLearningthatwecanusetomake

ourhelpourstudents,thepeopletakingourcourses,actuallydo

theworkthattheyneedtodo?

Mark: Yeah,that’sagreatquestion.Ithinkthat...Idosometeaching

onlineaswell.I’veencounteredexactlywhatyoujustsaid,Pat,that

ideathatpeoplemaybeaccessinformation.Thentheydon’tcome

backtoit.Iteachsomecoursesonlinethatrunfornineweeks.

Someonewillsignupthreeweeksbeforethecoursestarts.Then

you’reintheninthweek,andI’veneverheardfromthem.Alotof

timesit’sscrambling.It’slike,“Okay,whatdoIdonow?”Theninthe

classroom,it’sthesamething.Yougivekidsaprojectorsomething

andtheysay,“Okay,I’mgoingtodothatlater.”Theypushitoff.

Theyforgetaboutit.

WhatIhavefoundthatreallyworksbestistofindmultiplewaysto

engage.Intheonlineworld,we’vebeentalkingaboutitalready,

theideaofthebackchannel.Alotofpeopledon’ttrulygraspthe

conceptofthebackchannel.Therearesomanyofthemnow.

We’resittinghere,andwe’rerattlingoffTwitter,Voxer,orSlack.

There’ssomanywaystocommunicate.WhatIhavereallytriedto

doisfirstofall,maybeIdon’tfocusoneverysingleone,butIdotry

tobeactiveonmostofthepopularsocialnetworks.Iwanttogive

studentsanoptiontoconnectwithmeinavarietyofways.

Somepeopledislikeemail.Right?It’soldschool.Eventhoughit’sin

thedigitalworld,it’sstillkindofoldschool.Isay,“Youknow,that’s

fine.Youcanreachouttomethroughemail.”I’malwaysonTwitter.

Itellallofmystudents.EvenwhenIwasstillintheclassroomwith

youngerkids,evenmiddleschoolers,youknow,theylovesocial

media.Whenyouwouldgivethemanopportunitytoconnectwith

youinaspacethatthey’reverycomfortablewith,thenyoucan

constantlystayconnected.Youcanremindthem,“Well,we’vegot

thiscomingup,”or,“We’reworkingonthis.”




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Ifthey’restruggling.“Hey,I’monthisproject,andIdon’tgetthis

orthat,”theycan’tseeyouface-to-face,buttheycanreachoutto

you,andknowthattheycancontactyouthroughoneofthoseback

channels.Iranawebsiteformyclasses.Nowintheonlineworldfor

olderpeople,teachersarereallymystudentsnow,Idothesame

thing.There’salwaysaspacewhereyoucancommunicate,whether

it’sachatroom,orjustacommentsectiononanassignment.

There’salwayssomething.ThenIgetpingedwithanalertthat

someonehascommunicatedwithme.Itcreatessortofthattwenty-

four-sevenfeel.Ithinkthatconnectionisreallywhatkeepslearners

engaged.

Pat: That’scool.Ilikethat.Whatif...Doyouhaveanythinginplace

togetnotifiedorkeeptrackofthosewhoaren’ttakingaction?

Sometimestheyslipthroughourfingers,orwejustdon’teven

notice.Thosearethepeoplewhoneedthehelpthemost.

Mark: Yeah,that’sagreatpointtoo.Ithinkit’ssortofatwo-pronged

approach.IhaveasysteminplacewhereonacoursesitethatI

use,IuseaplatformcalledKajabiforexample,forone.There’sso

manyoutthere.I’mnotpromotinganyoneoveranother.I’mjust

sayingthisisonethatIuse.What’sgreataboutitisithasasystem

setuponthebackendwhereyoucangoin,anditwillshowyou

automaticallyinacolumnnexttoallofyourregisteredpeoplewhen

theyhavelastinteractedwithcontent.

Whatyou’resayingistrue.Wetendtoreallyfocusonthosewho

areengagedandwhoareconnected.Ithinkthetwosystemswork

together.IfI’mconstantlygettingpingedonabackchannelby

someonewho’stakingacourseofmine,Iknowwho’sengaged

rightaway.I’mthinking,“Iknowthisperson,becausethey’realways

hittingmeonTwitterorVoxorsomewhere.”Thenyousortofthink,

“Well,whatabouttheseotherpeoplethatI’mnothearingfrom?”

That’swhenIthinkyouneedatoolwhereyoucangoinonthe

backsideandsee,“Okay,whendidtheylastengage?”Thenwith

myonlinesystem,Icanthen,rightfromthatsystem,whenIsee

thattheyhaven’tbeeninthecontentinmaybeaweekorfivedays




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orwhatever,Icanrightfromthereshootthemamessagethatthey

willgetalertedintheiremail.Itwillsay,“Hey,MarkBarneshas

communicatedwithyou.”

That’sreallyimportanttodo.Alotoftimesyoufindthatpeople

havereallylegitimatereasons.They’renotjustblowingoffthework.

Evenkids,Iusedtosaythatalot.You’dhearfromcolleagueswho’d

say,“Well,thiskidneverdoesanything.”Isaid,“Well,youknow,

haveyouconnectedwiththatkidtofindoutwhyhe’snotdoing

it?”Ithinkit’strueforadultstoo.Ihearsomepeople,likeIsaid

earlier,theygetintoacourseearly,andtheykindofforgetaboutit,

becausewe’vegotbusylives.Theygo,“Oh,yeahthat’sright.Boy,

I’mreallygladyoureachedouttome.”Thatgoesbacktothatwhole

relationshipbuildingtoo,whichissoimportant.

Pat: Right,it’sabsolutelyhuge.Whenpeopleseethatyou’reactually

takingthetimetoconsiderwherethey’reat,tomaybehelpthem

out,Imeanitjustspeakssohighlyofwhyyou’redoingwhatyou’re

doing.They’regoingtobemoreofafan.They’remaybegoingto

hopefullytakeaction.Ifnot,they’regoingtoshareyouwithothers

becausetheytrustyou.Theyknowthatyou’reinitfortheright

reasons.

Mark: Yeah,that’sabigone.Ithink,again,relationships.Youjust

almostcan’tsaythewordenough.It’sgreat.I’vehadpeoplewho

maybesignedupforacourseanddidn’ttakeit.Thenmonths

later,someonecamebacktomeandtheysaid,“Hey,soandso

recommendedyou.”Ithought,“Well,theydidn’ttakemycourse.”

Weconnectedlikeyouwerejusttalkingabout.Wecommunicated.

Theysaid,“Yeah,he’sreallygoodatcommunicating.”That’sthe

wholedigitalworldandthebackchannelthing.It’ssohugeisIget

peopleallthetimewhosay,“Boy,hegetsbacktomesoquickly.”I

thinkthetechnologyallowsthat,evenifyou’rereallybusy.

Pat: Right,oryoucanhavecertainteammembersinplacetobeable

tohavethatquickerresponsetime,whichisalwaysgoingtobe

positive.OnethingIrememberwhenIwasgrowingupandgoing

toschool,someofmyfavoriteteachersorclasseswereones




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wheretherewasalotofinteractionbetweenmyselfandtheother

students.Ithinkintheonlinespaceit’squitesimilar.Weseemto

enjoynotjustthecontentthatweget,butthecommunitieswe’re

involvedwithtoo.Howdoyoubalancethatcommunityaspectof

learningwiththeideaofjustmanagingsuchathing?Ithinkthat’s

thebigthing.Everybodywantsacommunityintheircourse,butit’s

averydifficultthingtomanage.I’vetriedtodoonebefore,andit

just,itfellflat.

Ifyouhaveoneoftheseformsavailable,it’sgoingto...Ifit’sactive,

that’sgreat.It’sgoingtoelevateeverythingthatyoudo,andpeople

aregoingtoenjoyitmoreifyouhavearecurringpayment,for

example,tostayinthere,peoplearegoingtopaybecausethey

wanttobeapartofthatcommunity,butit’salsoverydifficultto

manage.Doyouhaveanyadviceortipsorsolutionsfor,oratleast

somethingtothinkaboutforthecommunitybuildingaspectof

learning?

Mark: Yeah,Ithinkonething,andImayhavementionedthisearlier,I

thinkyouhavetogivepeoplealotofchannels,whichcangetbusy

foryou.Thenyouhavetobeinvolvedinallthosechannels.Ithink

oneofthethingsyouwanttodointhatcaseistofindatoolthat

helpsyoumanageyourdifferentchannels.There’stonsofthose.

Thosearebecomingmoreandmorepopularnow.IuseBuffer.

Bufferissuchahugetoolforme,becauseitallowsmetotakeall

ofmysocialnetworks,andputthemononescreen.ThenIcan

communicatewithpeopleinasingleclick.Icantypeonemessage,

anditwillgotoFacebook,Twitter,LinkedIn,andavarietyofother

places,Pinterest.

Yousendthatonemessage,andifsomeoneisinvolvedinyour

communityonPinterest,butmaybenotTwitter,they’restillgetting

thatmessage.Ithinktoolslikethatreallyhelp,becauseyoucan’t

tellsomeone,andI’vedonethisinthepast.Thisisspeakingfrom

experience.IusedtobeveryrigidabouthowIwasgoingtowork.

Isaid,“Thisisourplatform.Thisiswherewe’regoingtobe,and

thisiswhereyouhavetobe.”Istartedlosingpeople.Itjuststruck

methatinthisevolvingworldofchannels,socialchannels,back




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channels,thatpeoplelikedifferentthings.Thatwasanepiphany

forme.Ithelpedmerealizethatyouhavetogivepeoplewhatyou

wantinthedigital...Whattheywantinthedigitalworld.That’s

madeabigdifference.

Pat: You’reabsolutelyright.Peoplehavetheirownpreferredwayof

absorbingcontent.That’swhyIthinkSmartPassiveIncomehas

becomesogreatovertheyearsbecauseit’snotjustblogcontent

anymore.ItexpandedoutontoYouTube.Itexpandedouton

podcastepisodes.Theycrosspromoteeachother.Yes,thereare

peoplewhowilltakecontentfromeachofthosechannels,but

there’salsoonesthatonlyhavetheirownpreferredwaytoeither

listenorwatchorread.Iwouldn’thavebeenabletoreachthem

otherwise.Ithinkyou’reabsolutelyrightthere,intermsofcontent

producercommunicatingtothecontentconsumer.

Whenit’scontentconsumerscommunicatingwitheachother,Ithink

thatthosechannels,ifthey’reavailable,havetobeveryspecific

ononeplatform.Forexample,ifyou’regoingtohaveacommunity

whereyourpeoplearegoingtotalktoeachother,itwouldbe,for

exampleaFacebookgroup.That’stheonethatsortofpeopletoday

areusingtoaddvaluetotheirowncourses.It’s,“Hey,we’regoing

tohavethisFacebookcommunity.”Ithinkit’sFacebookcurrently,

justbecausethat’swhereeverybodyis.Communicationiseasy.

Then,mybuddyChrisDuckerwhorunsYoupreneur.com,hehas

agreatforumandagreatcommunitythere.He’schosentohave

primarily,atleastinthispointandtime,alotofhiscommunication

there.Ialsoknowit’sverydifficult.IguesswhatI’mtryingtosay

hereisit’skindofgoingtotakealittlebitofexperimentation,

dependingonwhoyouraudienceis.AmIright?

Mark: Yeah.Theotherthing,Pat,isIthinkthatyouhaveto,onceyour

audienceisestablished,youknowifyou’reinasmallergroup,

ifyou’retalkingaboutdealingwithpeoplethatyou’removinga

productoutto,you’resendingcontentoutto,andit’sonespecific

group.We’renottalkingabouthundredsofthousands,Ithinkit’s

importantto,whenyou’redecidingonthatone,singleplacewhere




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thegroupisgoingtomeet,tocometoanagreementasmuchas

possible.Forsmallergroups,ifyou’redoingaMastermindgroup,if

youhave,Idon’tknow,fiftyorahundredpeopleinthere,Ithinkit’s

aloteasiertocommunicatewiththem,andinthebeginningtosay,

“Okay,we’regoingtomeetinthisoneplace,orI’mgoingtoputout

aGoogleform,orsomething,andwe’regoingtodecidewhat’sthe

bestwayforustocommunicateandtocollaborate.”

Again,andIthinkyou’rerightaboutFacebook.Mostpeopleare

there.Youcansay,“We’regoingtostartthisFacebookgroup.”I’ve

hadgroupslikethat.IhaveaverylargeFacebookgroup,it’scalled

TeachersThrowingOutGrades.Wetalkallaboutassessment.That

wasoneofmyfirstbigventuresinthesocialmediaworldasan

educator.There’soversixthousandmembersinthisgroupglobal.

They’rejustpeoplewhowanttotalkaboutassessment.Atfirst,that

groupwasreallysmall.Isaid,“Isthistheplaceyouwanttobe?”

Thatseemedtobewhateveryonewanted.Theysaid,“Yeah,thisis

whereIwanttobe.IlikeFacebook.”Now,I’vestartedothergroups,

andthey’vesaid,“Youknow,let’smovethisovertoVoxer.”Youcan

dothatuptoaboutahundredpeople,Ithink,onVoxerwithsome

success.

Pat: Oh,Ididn’trealizethat.

Mark: Onceitgetsbiggerthanthat,I’minagroupthathasabouta

hundredsixtypeople.Itcangetreallynoisy.Especiallyforsmaller

groups,it’sgreatbecausewetalkedaboutVoxerearlier.You’vegot

thatvoiceaspectwhereyoucanhearpeople’spassion,andyou

canthinkaboutwhatyouwanttosway.Youcansayit,andthen

theycanlistenlater.Thentheycanthinkabouttheirresponse.I

thinkthat’sareallycoolplatformtoo.Thekeyiswhatdopeople

wanttodo?Wheredotheywanttogo?

Pat: Thenalso,thelastthingIwanttomentionaboutcommunities,

forums,issettingtheexpectationforwhatyourinvolvementis.I’ve

madethismistakebefore,whereIsetupaforumoracommunity.

Ithinkpeopleexpectedmetobethereandanswereverysingle

questionwhenIhaddifferentexpectations.Thoseexpectations




14

theyhadweren’tmet.Thereweredisagreements.Peoplefeltlet

down.Youdefinitelydon’twantthattohappen.Ithinkifyou’revery

honestwithpeople,andyousay,“Hey,I’mgoingtobeinhere,so

andsoduringtheweek,maybeanhour,aday,ormaybejusta

couplehoursaweek,”thenpeoplearegoingtobeokaywiththat

ifyou’renottheretherestofthetime.It’swhenthoseexpectations

arenotmetwherethingscankindofgobadforyourcommunity.

Youdefinitelydon’twantthattohappen.Ijustwantedtoshare

thatthroughmyownexperiencetomakesureyousetthose

expectations.

Here’sakindofaloadedquestionforyou,Mark.Somebodywho’s

puttingacoursetogetherorsomesortofteachingonmaybeablog

postseriesoraseriesofYouTubevideos,what’stheperfectwayto

teach?Whatdopeoplerespondbestto?

Mark: Boy,yousaidloadedquestion,youweren’tkidding,right?

Pat: Yeah,wellatleastsetyouupforit.Ididn’tjustcomeoutof

nowhere.

Mark: Well,alittlebit.Yeah,I’lltellyou,that’sareallytoughone.Thebest

waytoteach.Isthat...

Pat: Yep.

Mark: DidIputitinanutshellthere?Thebestwaytoteach.

Pat: Howdoyougetstudentstolearnthecontentthatyouhaveinyour

brainbest?

Mark: I’lltellyouthewaythatIfoundoveralotofyearsthatworkedbest

forme,andIknowsomeeducators,andthey,ifeducatorslistento

this,theymightimmediatelypushbackandgo,“No,that’snotright.”

Forme,andittookmealongtimetorealizethis,whatworkedbest

wasreallygettingoutofkids’way.Ithinkthatthat’sreallyhardina

traditionalschool.Ifyou’retalkingabouttheK12world,that’sreally,

reallyhardtodo.Ifyou’retalkingevenaboutcollege,it’sreallyhard




15

todo,becausewhatdoprofessorsdo?Theytypicallystandinfront

ofagroupandlecture.

UnfortunatelyalotofteachersintheK12worldcontinuethat

methodaswell.Ittookmealongtimetofigureitout,andthere’s

somuchcontrolthatyou’regivingaway.Whatworkedforme,you

usedthephrase,“Howdoyougetthe...What’sinyourheadto

them,orgetthemtolearnwhat’sinyourhead?”WhichIlovethe

wayyousaythat.

WhatIlearnedisifItookaconceptthatIwantedmykidstolearn,

andIputituponaboard,whetheritwasablackboardoran

interactivewhiteboard,andIsaid,“Ineedyoutolearnthistoday,

andI’mgoingtoletyoulearnitanywayyouwantto.”Thatultimately

grewintothissortofmessy,chaoticenvironmentthatintheend,

broughtfarmoreresultsthanifIstoodinfrontofthegroupand

disseminatedtheinformation,andhopedthatitwouldsomehow

getintotheirbrains.

That’stheoldschoolmethod.Whathappensiskidsandadults,they

starttocollaborate.Evenadultsare,ifyouwalkintoaconference,

andIknowyou’vebeenanddonetonsofthesethings.Ifyougoin

frontofalargegroupinaconference,andyouasktheaudienceto

dosomething,theirfirstreactionissortofthatpause,justlikekids.

They’lllookateachother,andgo,“Oh,okay.Whatdowedo?But

Idon’tknowallthesepeople.”Onceyougetpeoplecomfortable,

andsay,“It’sokaytomakemistakes,they’llstartinteracting,and

they’llpullfromeachother.That’sreallyanamazingthing.

Whathappensisyou’vegottomoveoutoftheway.Youhavetobe

moreofaguide,moreofacoachthanateacheroraninstructor.To

me,that’sthebestwaytoteach,istojustdangleaconceptoraskill

infrontofyouraudience,andsay,“Herearesomewaysyoucan

findit,nowgofinditandhelpeachotherandaskquestions.”That

reallyturnsintosomethingbeautiful.

Pat: Iknowfrommyownexperience...Greatanswer,Mark.Thankyou

forthat.Sorrytoputyouonthespotthere.Inmyexperience,in




16

termsofhowI’vebeeneducatedbest,it’salwaysbeena,“You

guideme.Youpointmeintherightdirection,butthenletmego.”I

thinkI’mtryingtoadoptthatasaparentaswell.MysonisinSTEM

school.That’showtheyteach.I’veseenmassiveresultswithhim,

andhowhe’sbeenabletoteachhimselfthings,whichisamazing.

I’mveryblessedforthat.

Ithinkyou’reright.Askingquestions,payingattention,andlistening

isgoingtohelpyoubest.Ithinkalotofuswhocreateonline

courses,wegothroughthemotionsofwantingtohelp,andweput

outthecontentthatisgoingtohelp,andalotoftimeswejustthink

thatwhenwegothroughthelaunchprocess,thatwesellthose

coursesorwesellaccesstothosecourses,wethinkthat’sit.It’s

kindofallinthatperson’sresponsibilitytofollowthrough.Ithinkwe

stillhavetocontinuetoworkwithpeople,oratleastsurveyorkeep

track.Likeyousaid,youuseKajabi.Iknowthere’salotofother

toolsouttherethatcanhelpuskeeptrackofwherepeopleareat.

Ithinkit’sourresponsibilityascontentcreatorstodothatifwe

trulywanttohelppeopleinthebestwaypossible.That’sbeenthe

bigdebatethatI’vebeentalkingaboutinalotofmyMastermind

groups,andjustinternallyinmyownheadishowfardoyougo

tohelpsomebodyafteryou’vegiventhemthatcontentthatthey

need?Shouldn’tthatbeenough?Idon’tthinkthat’senough.I

thinkthereshouldbealittlebitmore.Idon’tknowifyouhaveany

responsetothat,butI’mjustkindofthinkingoutloud,Mark.

Mark: Well,no,Ido.Ithinkthatyou’retalkingaboutiterationtoo.This

goesbacktoalittlebittomyK12world.Oneofourmostpopular

booksintheHackLearningseriesiscalledHackingAssessment.

It’sallaboutthrowingouttraditionalgrades.Peoplesay,“Howdoes

thatwork?”Oneofthemostimportantwordsinthereisiteration.

Yousay,“Well,peoplearegoingtomakemistakes.Wehavetogive

themachancetomakemistakes,andthenwehavetohelpthem.”

Thatwholepathtothemistakeandsortofjumpingthathurdle,and

makinganothermistake,andjumpingthathurdle,that’swhatleads

tomastery.




17

Ithinkwhenyou’retalkingabouttheonlinecourse,andlikeyoujust

saidit,theoldthinkingis,“I’llputtheinformationthere.Theycan

comegetit,andthatshouldbeenough.”Itreallyisn’t,becauseno

matterwhatlevelthelearneris,whetherit’sakidorahighschool

kidoracollegekidoranadultthatwe’resendingourcoursesout

to,they’regoingtomakemistakesandthey’regoingtostruggle.

Theinteractionhastobethere.Thatsortofcomesbacktoyour

wholethingabouthowdoyoumanageyourtimeandallthat.That’s

allsortofthefascinatingpartaboutitiswehavetolookatallofthe

facetsofit,andthelayersofthisonion,andsay,“What’sinvolved

tomakeitthebestthatitcanbe?”Ithinkiterationandcollaboration

arekey.

Pat: Iloveit.Thisisgoingtobeagreattopicofdiscussioninthe

commentsectionhereofthisblogpost,inpodcastepisodeIthink.

Iwanttoencourageeverybodytocomeoverandtalkaboutwhat

youthinkabouteducation,aboutMarksaid,aboutwhatIsaid,and

seeifwecanaddtothisdiscussion.Ithinkit’sourjobascontent

creatorstofigureouthowwecanbestteachourstudents.I’dlove

tohaveyoujoininonthatconversation.Mark,thanksagainfor

comingonandsharingyourinformationhere.Superfascinating.

Again,ifyouwanttogiveashoutoutoralinktowherepeoplecan

gofindoutmoreaboutyou,thatwouldbefantastic.

Mark: Yeah,it’sallaboutHackLearning.Hacklearning.org,everything

isthere.That’ssortofthehostforHackLearning.There’slinksto

books,theblog,thepodcast,theteam.There’sreallyincredible

educatorsthere.They’renotjustfortheK12world.They’ve

gotamazingstuffforalllearners.I’monTwitterallthetime,

markbarnes19.That’sthebestplace,really,toconnect.I’dloveto

hearfrompeople.

Pat: Awesome.Again,that’smarkbarnes19onTwitter.Givehimashout

andlethimknowwhatyouthink.Mark,thanksagainforyourtime.

Weappreciateyou.IfeellikeIcouldtalktoyouforeverabout

education,becausethat’ssomethingI’mverybigonrightnowwith

mysonbeingsixandinSTEMschool.Iwanttomakesomechanges

inthisworld,andeducationtoo,that’ssortofmyfivetenyeargoal.




18

Hopefullywe’llbetalkingagainsoon.

Mark: Soundsgreat.I’dloveto.I’vereallyenjoyedit.Thanksforhaving

me.

Pat: Allright.Thanks,Mark.Allright,Ihopeyouenjoyedthatinterview

withMarkBarnes.Again,youcanfindhimathacklearning.org.

HisTwitterhandleismarkbarnes19.Justfantasticconversation.

Mark,thankyouforcomingonandsharingeverythingwith

ustoday.Asalways,youcangettheshownotesonthe

blogatsmartpassiveincome.com/session224.Again,that’s

smartpassiveincome.com/session224.Yeah,thankyousomuchfor

joiningmetoday.Iappreciateit.

Justsoyouknow,nextweek’sepisodeisgoingtobereallyspecial.

I’mbringingonafewdifferentguests.Twoofthemyou’veheard

frombeforeinwaybackepisodes,andonepersonwhoyou’ve

neverheardhereonthepodcast.Thatismyfamily,soyou’regoing

tohearfrommykidswhohavebeenontheshow,Imeannotasa

guest,butreallyasjustlittleinsertshereandthere.Youheartheir

youngbabyvoices.They’vegrownupsincethen.You’realsogoing

tohearfrommywifeApril.Thatwillbereallyinteresting.Look

forwardforthatone.Thatone’sepisodetwotwenty-fivecoming

outnextweek.Yeah,it’sgoingtobeafunone.Thankyousomuch.

Iappreciateyou.Keepdoingwhatyou’redoing,becauseyou’re

helpingtomakechangeinthisworld.Keepitup.Cheers.

Announcer: ThanksforlisteningtotheSmartPassiveIncomePodcast,atwww.

smartpassiveincome.com.




19

ReSouRceS: HackLearning.org

@markbarnes19

HackingEducation:10QuickFixesforEverySchool

Voxer

Slack

Kajabi

CultofPedagogy




http://hacklearning.org

http://twitter.com/markbarnes19

http://willitflybook.com

http://hacklearning.org/hacking-education-10-quick-fixes-for-every-school/

http://voxer.com

http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/slack

https://newkajabi.com/

http://www.cultofpedagogy.com


Documents

Hack Teaching—A Discussion about Education and Getting ...a way to fix this.” The next thing you know, our conversation and brainstorming turned into ten problems and ten quick