Gmail - One Hell of a Debate

7/29/2019 Gmail - One Hell of a Debate

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3/17/13 Gmail - one hell of a debate

https://mail.g oog le.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=a2cdff32e5&view=lg &msg =13d78d6af5722772

anoop kumar

one hell of a debate

anoop kumar Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 8:22 PM

To: anoop kumar

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: anoop kumar

Date: Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 8:33 PM

Subject: one hell of a debate

Charlotte Bence Spring, manchester

One female speaker? Is that it?Like Comment Wednesday at 1:52pm via mobile

John Game and 47 others like this.

Sarah Greyhttp://en.wiktionary.org/

wiki/mansplain

about an hour ago Like 2

Naomi Bee Sometimes it's almost as ifsexism is

still a huge problem in the left!

Wednesday at 2:53pm via mobile Like 21

Charlie Winstanley The gender ratio is an issue,

all I can say is that it was unintentional and we are

still modifying the timetable


Charlotte Bence You've got one woman, and the

multiculturalism panel is two white men.

That's a problem.


Charlie Winstanley I sent you a PM detailing

exactly the woman we were attempting to put on the

panel for that discussion CharlotteWednesday at 3:10pm via mobile Like

Robert Jack Nice to see as ever the left can offer

supportive and non confrontational criticism. Would it

have hurt to have simply asked if there was a reason?

To essentially level accusations of sexism here at a

comrade who is quite widely known in the area not to

be strikes me as being quite crass and arrogant too.

Sexism is a problem in the left but I don't think

anyone whose organised the Spring conference has

contributed to it. Its been organised by two full time
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2/27


https://mail.g oog le.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=a2cdff32e5&view=lg &msg =13d78d6af5722772 2

workers based upon personal contacts. As you know

and actually point out, as in wider society, sexism is

a problem in the left, and there is a hugely

disproportionate amount of men compared to women

in the left. We need to address that as a movement

but in the meantime, is it sexist that I sometimes go

on meetings and actions that have alot more men

than women? Should I just sit at home, remaining

inactive, until the left is sorted out and we have a

gender balance in our ranks?

I think the idea that its a problem that the speakers

on multiculturalism are white is ridiculous too. 90% of

the country is white, for one thing, so if you get two

speakers, presumably well informed people on the

topic, theres a high chance they will both be white.

Again, did it not occur to you that the organisers

simply didn't know any suitable non-white people to

talk on this subject? And do you actually think

someones skin colour impacts upon their ability to

discuss an academic topic?

Wednesday at 4:39pm Like 4

Rachel Eborall So it looks as though there is only

one woman speaking during the whole day! I have to

say its disappointing.


Charlie Winstanley Not that I want to associate it

specifically with this discussion (as we had been

angling for it for a while) but literally in the last few

minutes we confirmed Esther Leslie on the

multiculturalism panel! There will hopefully be one or

two other additions also in the next week.


Charlotte Bence It's really good that there's an

additional female speaker.

But still nobody who is not white on a

multiculturalism panel, out of three speakers?


Charlotte Bence I'm not trying to be a hyper-

critical arsehole here, but this stuff does matter.


Michael Black Fair play charlie for puttin in thework to organise this, if only the same could be said

of the rest of these whingers


Charlotte Bence Michael, if you think it's

whinging to consider it important that a panel on

multiculturalism has someone who is not white on it

then I think you need to have a word with yourself.

Charlie and the other organisers have done a great

ob pulling together what exists for the event so far,
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3/27



nobody's denying that. But I do think constructive

criticism from people who want to see this event

succeed, and be relevant to whole swathes of people

is valid here.


Charlie Winstanley Every one on that panel

deserves to be there - every one of our speakers

deserves to be there. We said from the off that we

were going for quality discussions and we wouldn't

pick people we didn't know that well or weren't suited

to discussions just to play demographic football with

the rota. We are putting this conference on in our

spare time and we will most likely lose money on it,

neither of us are professionals or part of a wider

organisation helping us out. If the discussions look

interesting then please come down. If not then don't.

Sorry Charlotte but if that's not good enough for you

then so be it.

Wednesday at 5:14pm via mobile Like

Ian Black I think billy mckinstry from the later

discussion wouldve been a good option for this, beingwhite and male aside, he did grow up in south africa

and maintains a keen interest in affairs with the

african community


Robert Jack If theres people who don't think a talk

on multiculturalism is relevant unless it comes from

someone with the same skin colour as them, I think

thats a problem that they need to look at themselves


Charlotte Bence Robert, please do not accuse

me of levelling accusations of sexism against Charliewhen I have not done so.

I am not saying that the organisers of this event are

sexist. I am saying that maybe a couple more women

on the panel might be a good idea. And Charlie

appears to have agreed with me on that one.

I am not saying that the three panelists on the

multiculturalism panel will not be well informed on the

subject and offer interesting perspectives. Quite the

opposite, I think all three of the speakers will deliver

interesting, relevant talks and I'd imagine there'd be a

good debate from the floor in this session. I for one

am looking forward to it.

I am not saying that this is not "good enough". You've

organised this in your spare time around a full time

ob and I think, for what it's worth, that this

conference could be brilliant, and will be relevant,

timely and interesting. My opinion is that this is a

great idea, and I know how much work goes in to this

kind of thing because I've done similar stuff myself. In

no way am I trying to belittle what you've done, as
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4/27



seems to be implied above, because I am not THAT

much of a dick head.

THE ONLY POINTS I am making is that more women

speakers would be good, and that a panel discussion

on multiculturalism could, in my opinion, be better if it

was, well, multicultural. I don't think that's such a

terrible thing to say.


Robert Jack See thats alot nicer and meaningful

than just saying 'One female speaker? Thats it?', so

maybe in future when you want to offer such

constructive critical opinion it would be helpful if you

did it politely in the first instance, otherwise it leads

to arguments like this which contain alot of bad

feeling


Charlotte Bence I asked a question. Well, two.

That is not aggressive, or confrontational. It's asking

questions. There is a difference.


Ian Black Its easy to see why it was

misconstrued as an accusation of sexism charlotte,

given that you posted the question just after naomis

assertation that sexism is still a big issue in the left.

Unless naomis comment was just arbitrary, one we

would all agree with. It does read as tho 1 female

speaker=organiser sexist because the left is sexist

because all men are sexist=the end.

Not that im saying that was your intention but thats

how alot of people seem to have read it. curious.

Wednesday at 6:15pm Like

Robert Jack I think you know full well how it came

across and I'm not in the business of having to teach

people manners over the internet but I think you seem

quite disrespectful and I don't want to waste anymore

time having a pointless discussion with you about it

as your clearly not willing to acknowledge it


Michael Black I think the comments of naomi and

rachel were particularly disgraceful


Naomi Bee I was going to say that my comment

was perhaps a little flippant, but seeing that women

are now being accused of being 'disgraceful' for

suggesting that having only one woman speaker is

unacceptable I think it pretty much still stands.


Robert Jack Well thats one person Naomi. I

haven't said that. I don't think they were disgraceful.

So I think in my case it doesn't stand - thanks for

acknowledging that your comment was flippant

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5/27



Naomi Bee Considering that this thread now

consists of men taking a woman to task for pointing

out that yes, having only one woman speaking at a

one day conference is sexist I think my comment

was actually quite reasonable.


Robert Jack I was taking her to point on the way

in which you both mentioned it, as is clear, and I

think you too now are trying to find a post-hocustification for what was a rude way to address the

fact that there weren't many women on the speakers

list


Charlotte Bence Agreed Naomi. But then

apparently I've been accusing the organisers of being

sexist, I am disrespectful and I have no manners.

Feel a bit like I'm being accused of being a 'hysterical

female' to be honest. Cheers, comrade.


Naomi Bee Why the hell should women berequired to be polite about sexism!/


Robert Jack Ok thats fine then, use the social

oppression of women to justify being rude and

arrogant, I personally find this an offensive misuse of

the feminist movement that has set us back but if it

helps you get through life


Ian Black I agree, i get the feeling naomi and

charlotte are now trying to derail what was a partially

heated but ultimatly constructive and resolveddiscussion.


Michael Black Well with wats went on over the

SWP im glad you feel you can be 'flippant' with

accusations of sexism about something someone

has put a lot of work into organisin


Charlotte Bence But the thing is, I wasn't rude

and arrogant. So I'm actually not using the

oppression of women to justify my behaviour. At all.


Naomi Bee No, I'm objecting to the fact that

woman are being called 'disgraceful' for raising the

matter at all! Rachel's comment was that it was

disappointing that there was only one woman

speaking, and this is 'disgraceful'?


Robert Jack If you can't recognise flaws in how

you behave then as I said, I'm not going to try and

teach you how to behave, your an adult, and I'd feel

my time would be wasted, I just think your setting our
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6/27



movement back because you alienate people who are

on your side, who consider themselves feminists, like

the organisers. I think you'll find very quickly no one

wants to listen to you no matter how right you are if

you are rude about it


Ian Black Rachels comment came after a rebuttal

from the organiser, one she clearly didnt read. You

allways get headline readers i suppose.


Charlotte Bence I think you, Robert, need to

consider how you talk to women. You've been both

patronising and offensive by turn and haven't actually

provided any evidence for my alleged rudeness. You

ust keep saying I am rude, and that nobody will

listen to me, and that I am accusing the organisers of

sexism for questioning why there is one female

speaker so far. That is not rude, neither is it arrogant.


Robert Jack Stop trying to transfer your ownattitude onto me - you'll find if your rude to people

people will probably be rude back to you


Laurel Dean Fucking hell this thread... it's almost

as if sexism is still a huge problem in the left!


Robert Jack Its almost as if the left is full of

arrogant people who hide their own characters flaws

behind their politics!


Jack Pilgrim Where are you Charlie Winstanley?


Charlotte Bence OK, so to summarise- asking

where the female speakers are is rude, tantamount to

accusing the organisers of sexism, arrogant,

representative of a flaw in my character and

disrespectful? OK. I'm glad we've cleared that up.


Robert Jack We haven't cleared it up because

your above post was just your opinion. Asking 'One

female speaker? Is that it?' is in my opinion a rudeand unconstructive way to address the issue,

especially given the effort put in by the organisers of

this conference.

Could you not have just asked 'I'm a bit concerned

why there is only one female speaker, is there a

reason for this?'


Alexander CarverSorry to potentially patronise

or confront anyone, but "multiculturalism" is not

"multiracialism" - it's the policy of treating ethnic
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7/27



cultures as equally valid, to be promoted and

protected by law. Anyone can address this subject if

they are familiar with it. If it did in fact mean "race

relations" it would indeed make sense that someone

from a uk ethnic minority have a place on the panel,

but even then it wouldn't be mandatory.

There seems to be an idea that racism and misogyny

can only be addressed by racial minorities and

women; whilst it would be laughable to disregard theirinput on these fronts, it is still deeply mistaken to see

them as impossible to understand by anyone but

their subjects. This att itude - imported from America -

seems to be increasingly in vogue on the fractured

and alienated uk left.

I completely agree with a policy of weighted panels

(or officer positions etc) precisely because it is the

simplest way of fighting sexism on the left and in

general - more women on positions of authority to

counteract prevailing attitudes in men and of course,

other women. On this basis, it would be good to havemore women speakers at this conference.


Alexander Carver@Laurel Dean: "Fucking hell

this thread... it's almost as if sexism is still a huge

problem in the left!"

What has been sexist in your opinion? I'm not going

to evaluate what you say, at all, I'm just interested.


Alexander CarverRobert Jack - I don't think it

will be very useful to try and prove one way or theother the tone your comments or the opening

comments were made in.

Getme.


Robert Jack Well thats where this whole

discussion has come from so...


Alex BakerIt seems unfair, to say the least, for

you to have a go at the people above calling this line-

up sexist for being 'unconstructive'. At a time when

people are being kicked out of the SWP using

EXACTLY the language youve just used for asking

similar questions about sexism! The line up is white-

male heavy- unrepresentative and therefore sexist and

racially problematic, regardless of how wonderful the

gents on it might be. Calm down, take the criticism.

Work to address it, and you might stop getting rude

comments.

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8/27



Michael Black Charlie you wud be as well pullin this

thread cuz these eejits arnt gonna stop. Continue your good

work and burn on all the armchair haterz


Ian Black Alex, mabye if you had taken the time

to read the comments before making one yourself

you will have discovered that, from the organisers own

mouth(or keyboard) the line up/event was a work in

progress, that in the time of the discussion a female

speaker had confirmed and attempts had been made

to organise other female speakers. Infact everytime

this convo reflares up it seems nobody has read

much beyond the original post and the comments

they feel they should "like"/ I feel im deffo wi robert

ack on this one, this isnt a political argument this is

a smug, elitist arsehole argument and by entering

into it we all just lost that little but more of our souls.


Alexander Carver"Racially problematic" - again,I will not comment on what you say, can you explain

what was or is racially problematic about the

composition of the panels, and more importantly, why

that is.


Huw Williams Oh dear............


Alex BakerIan, I read the thread before I posted. I

still think the criticisms are perfectly valid, and

yknow, theyre criticisms, not apocalyptic

pronunciations of final judgement upon your heads.Like I said, take it, learn from it etc. Dont fling rubbish

back.

Wednesday at 9:04pm Edited Like 6

Michael Black Nah alex, when sumone

unjustifiably calls my mate a sexist and pisses on his

hard work whilst doin fuck all themselves then i will

back him up. Its called solidarity, ya mite wanna try it

sumtime


Lauren Velvick I'm actually really heartened by

this thread - valid criticisms raised in a

straightforward, if not cheerfully kind way, addressed

by the organisers with sincerity and effort.


Ian Black Hey Charlie Winstanley do we all get

pms?


Charlotte Bence Michael, I didn't call your mate a

sexist. That's simply not true. And you've no idea

what I've done myself in the past so please don't
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9/27



make assumptions.


Charlie Bramley A bit late on this thread.

However, I'd just like to say some of the comments

here (especially Michael's above) reveal quite a

sinister tone to this debate that I find very concerning.

Making a completely reasonable criticism about the

lack of women on a panel shouldn't be met with a

tirade of verbal abuse about 'manners' and 'behaviour'

camouflaged under the really shady playground

politics of 'solidarity' and 'backing your mate up'.


Michael Black Granted charlotte and i appreciate

youv at least tried to explain your position and

criticism in a somewhat comradely manner. But by

backin up the snide and crankish behavior of naomi

you are doin us an urself no favours


Michael Black Charlie, You find my 'tone'

concerning but you dont find 'flippant' accusations ofsexism concerning?


Charlie Winstanley right this really has

descended into personal shit now - please let's call it

a day. i know i said my peace a lot earlier and don't

need anything else said


Naomi Bee Charlie: what's the name of the group

organising this event?


Charlie Winstanley no name, it's a personal

project between me and my longstanding friend

Marcus


Naomi Bee OK, just wanted to add it to the list of

organisations to avoid in future.


Charlie Winstanley no great loss


Charlie Bramley Michael, I think your positioning

of the word 'flippant' in single quotation marks is self-revelatory, since there were no 'flippant' accusations

of sexism. The conference situated itself as

representing 'a variety of backgrounds' yet published

a list of speakers in which there was only one female

speaker. Someone pointed this out as a valid

criticism. There are absolutely valid grounds that a

sexist bias was involved with this programming. The

comments in response to this valid concern were

typical and consistent with ignorance of sexism as an

issue. There were also some noticeable abusive

comments which were completely out of order, but
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10/27


https://mail.goog le.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=a2cdff32e5&view=lg&msg=13d78d6af5722772 10

again, depressingly predictable.


Naomi Bee Also a failure to recognise that none

of this occurs in a vacuum. To you, it's just that

YOUR conference doesn't have many women

speaking, however, to a lot of people, including, I

would think, the three of us who made comments, it's

ANOTHER event that lacks women speakers.


Naomi Bee The fact that women may fail to be

polite to you about this is because we get sick of the

fact it keeps happening, to say nothing of the way we

are treated when we point it out.


Michael Black Charlie bramley hate to embarrass

you but if you bothered to read the thread youll see

'flippant' was how the accuser described her own

comments.

Im not gonna try not to comment any more out of

respect to my friend charlie winstanley who has beenvery polite during all of this. I wish him all the best

and call on everyone serious about the left to get

involved and help improve this project


Al Mc Salford I would imagine these are themes

that may be discussed on the day. Politics full stop

is overwhelmingly white and male, and nobody thinks

tokentistic choices of speaker is anything but

patronising surely, so whats the answer?


Charlie Bramley Yeah I saw that, but I thoughtshe was being too polite. It wasn't flippant at all, it

was absolutely valid. She said as much herself in the

same comment...


Robert Jack As Al Mc above suggests, do you

then think the organisers should have picked

speakers purely on the basis of their gender,

regardless of whether or not they were the best

people to speak about the chosen subject?


Naomi Bee Thank you. The answer would perhapsinvolve taking criticism on board, and not bullying

women who raise issues such as this.


Robert Jack Well this just takes us back to the

original issue! If you had said 'This looks interesting,

but why are there so few female speakers?' you

would have probably have got a better response from

people! I'm not even an organiser but I know Charlie,

knows he's a good socialist and a good feminist, so I

thought it was repugnant that someone sole
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11/27



comment on all the hard work he put in should be

'Only one woman speaker, is that it?'!!!!


Charlie Bramley Precisely Naomi. No, Robert,

that would be tokenism. No-one is asking for

tokenism. However, assuming that it's either men, or

tokenism is the same fundamental sexist assumption

born out of ignorance that helps explain why this

situation emerged in the first place.


Sam FisherThat comment is not nearly as

repugnant as this diatribe against women who dare to

bring up this issue, or your description of someone as

a 'good feminist' and the continual reference to

'manners' in order to further undermine valid points

and sideline people's concerns. Worse st ill. To try

and paint them as irrationally harping from the

sidelines.


Robert Jack Then what do you expect two menwho work full time to do, when they've organised a

conference based on personal contacts, to remedy

the fatc most of the speakers are male!


Robert Jack If they cant win by deliberately finding

female speakers but cant win by just picking

speakers based on merit than they cant win at all!


Charlie Bramley 'what do you expect two men

who work full time to do'

This really says it all.


Robert Jack what does it say?


Charlie Bramley The point is Robert, they can

easily find female speakers based on merit, if they

cared enough to look, and it's only the extremely

ignorant perspective of sexism and sexists that

pretend otherwise.


Naomi Bee Think about why your 'personal

contacts' are mostly men?


Charlotte Bence Robert, to save any further

confusion and for the avoidance of doubt: my question

about the sole female speaker was not an allegation

of sexism against the organisers. But! In your

comments to me and other women this afternoon,

you have been sexist. That right there is an allegation

of sexism. You have patronised and belittled the

women on this thread in wholly unacceptable ways,
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12/27



and that is sexist. Are we clear? Me telling you your

comments are sexist is an allegation of sexism. Me

asking why there's only one female speaker is not an

allegation of sexism.


Robert Jack But as before mentioned, left wing

politics is generally at the moment male dominated. I

don't agree with this, I know charlie doesn't agree with

it, but thats the reality, so when he's organising a

conference in his spare time, how can he and one

friend alone remedy it?


Naomi Bee Absolutely agree with Charlotte. There

has been some really blatant sexist bullying on this

thread.


Robert Jack If I've shown you a lack of respect its

because I think your attitude at the start of this thread

indicated a lack of respect on your part. As I said, if

you had addressed *the same concern* in a morepolite way, you would have got a more polite

response!


Sam FisherClime down Robert. The comments

are hardly something you wouldn't say in-front of your

parents and it's bloody facebook for crying out loud,

not the royal court.


Robert Jack to avoid getting swamped here,

seeing as i'm talking to three different people i'm gona

summarise where i think this has goneWednesday at 11:28pm Like

BigTim Roberts love me some solidarity.


Robert Jack Well Sam I'm not saying they are

shocking, I'm saying they are rude and disrespectful

towards people who have worked hard to put on a

conference


Robert Jack And because they were rude, they've

been responded rudely to by me. Its not got anythingto do with the fact the person being rude was female,

its the fact they were being rude


Sam FisherOn 'left wing politics'. Are the issues

raised by feminists etc, etc, no longer within the remit

of 'left wing politics' anymore...? Thats sad.....


Naomi Bee Charlotte has not been anything

approaching rude once. And as I have said before, it's

not unreasonable for women to be sick of this kind of
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13/27



situation.


Charlotte Bence I think this has started because

you took issues with my phrasing, as is your right,

but instead of being reasonable you have attempted

to bully me. You didn't like it when I stood up for

myself, and you resorted to sexist language in an

attempt to silence me. Didn't work very well though,

did it. Oh, and FYI, this comment boarders on rude.

What I've said before- not rude.


Robert Jack Can you point out the sexist

language charlotte


Sam FisherTBH, I don't even think anyone should

be trying to justify their so-called 'rudeness' or

manners. Blatant derail.


Lina Conlin This is none of my business but

seems pretty relevant -http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument - There is a reason most

people are taking an issue with what you're saying

Robert


Robert Jack Nah, this a case of someone hiding

behind their gender and the politics surrounding it to

ustify their behaviour. If you want to know about tone,

look at the tone of the original comment that sparked

this thread


Andy Lawson this thread looks like what it is - 2

women raising valid concerns, and a load of

brocialists jumping on them. seriously guys, sort

yourselves out.


Sam Fisher^ ^


Kieran Crowe The tone of the original comment is

fine - that is, it is a bemused question. And a highly

relevant one. Is that it?


Robert Jack In fact in terms of mentioning sexist

language, I haven't even used anything gender

specific besides the obvious ones of peoples names

and the word 'he' or 'she'


Robert Jack So thats clearly a lie


Ollie Sutherland This thread is part of the

problem of sexism (on the left). Really embarrassing

and pathetic that Robert and co. can't see this
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14/27




Robert Jack I think its a problem of stuck up and

arrogant middle class students thinking they can put

the world to rights from their computer screens

personally but i spose its down to your intepretation


Robert Jack Apologies to anyone whose not a

student I've just noticed alot of the people on here

dishing out this crap are studentsWednesday at 11:41pm Edited Like

Ollie Sutherland ^ Leftist man uses

'feminism=middle-class' to beat down critic isms of his

privilege


Alex Baker^and there it is folks, the dismissal of

feminism as a bourgeois' concern.


Naomi Bee Yep, this is left sexism bingo right

here.Wednesday at 11:42pm Like 14

Robert Jack nah mate, i'm a working class

feminist so i know that ones not true. I just hate

middle class preachers such as yourselves


BigTim Robertshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?

v=owrVQebWCtc


Robert Jack I think your a blight on our movement

and do it absolutely no favours with your bizzare lust

for criticising people on your side to make yourselves

feel superior


Ollie Sutherland To make ourselves feel

superior? WTF are you talking about!?


Ollie Sutherland I guess feminism is just about

women being superior to men! (fail)


Robert Jack The fact that you have this obsession

with privilige and finding sexism where it doesnt existto make urself feel smug and superior to other

socialists and feminists


Ollie Sutherlandhttp://ideologicallyimpure.files.

wordpress.com/2011/02/feminist.jpg


Charlotte Bence You have accused me of being

rude. You have said I am disrespectful. You have said

I have a character flaw. You have accused me of

hiding behind my gender. In all of these statements
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15/27



you have attempted to silence me on my original,

perfectly innocent question to the organisers, which

has since been resolved but you cannot let it go. You

have patronised and commented aggressively to the

women who have participated on this thread. This is

sexism.


Andy Lawson robert - y u no stop digging?


Naomi Bee Sorry, I'm a feminst because it makes

me feel superior to other feminists?! Interesting.


Robert Jack Nah its not charlotte its called being

criticised


Robert Jack Nah, you pick up on imaginary

instances of sexist behaviour to make yourself feel

superior to other feminists, such as myself or charlie


Alexander Carveri think it's time to kill this and

open it up elsewhere if necessary. I do not think the

organisers are at fault at all here, an argument that

has been waiting to happen has broken out - but it's

not connected to this conference.


Naomi Bee Again: shut up women. Not surprising.


Robert Jack Its a trend thats emerged recently.

Lots of reasons for it but alot of people would put it

down to people like you lacking the bottle to have itout with the real enemies of womens liberation and

instead picking softer targets, such as people

actually on your side


Alexander CarverNot at all Naomi.


Alexander CarverThat's really shit you'd say

that, what...


BigTim Roberts alex, i think she was referring toanother comment.


BigTim Roberts at least... i hope so.


BigTim Roberts SPRING! Saturday, 11 May

2013... a one-day conference to be held in the

Friends Meeting House. Discussions on the day to

be overshadowed by the evil looks flying around the

place.

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16/27



Alexander CarverSeriously, this is not a debate

that was started by the fact the conference (which i

am completely unattached to btw) only had one

woman speaker this morning - that was addressed

pretty quickly. This is now a debate on what sexism

is, how to draw comrades attention to it, and what

can be done to change sexism. That's a huge topic.


Andy Lawson stop accusing women of being

'rude' or 'disgraceful' for raising concerns about

representation at a conference. it's one step away

from reminding them to 'know their place'


Robert Jack I'd imagine if you keyboard warriors

dedicated as much time to actual anti-sexist pro

womens liberation activism as you did to trying to find

sexism that doesnt exist in we'd have made alot more

progress as a movement by now...


Robert Jack So women can't be rude anymore? (Ididn't use the word disgraceful)


Charlie Bramley As someone said earlier, the

conference does not exist in a vacuum. The people

organising it can be drawn in to all of those things

Alexander. I might add that some of the other

participants chosen by the conference programmers

are not exactly known for their awareness or respect

for feminism.


Charlotte Bence I don't feel superior to Charlie,actually. Never once said that, or implied it. As I've

said, repeatedly, I think what Charlie's done here is

great and I hope the conference is a great success.

I do feel superior to you though. Not because I think I

am a better feminist by virtue of my gender, because

I'm not so ridiculous as to think that men cannot be

feminists- there are, for example, a number of make

feminists on this thread. But you're not one of them.

In your conduct today you have proved yourself to be

nothing but a sexist bully. That's why I feel superior to

you- because I'm not sexist, and I'm not a bully. I'malso capable of engaging in a political discussion by

addressing the points the person I am debating has

actually made. Lamentably, it does not appear that

the same could be said for you. You have read

exactly what you have chosen to read into all the

comments I have made, ignorantly ignoring the

substance of what I have actually said in an attempt

to paint me as a hysterical woman, man hating

feminist. Which, once again, is sexist.

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17/27



Robert Jack Well there you go, you've got what you've

wanted out of this discussion at last, as I said, you feel

superior to someone


Robert Jack You've satisfied your need to feel like

your part of the intellectual vanguard fighting swathes

of ingnorance, without even needing to leave the

house, fantastic


Charlotte Bence I've left the house, actually. I've

been to work, where I've represented a union member

in a disciplinary hearing. I've also helped organise a

meeting for a campaign I'm helping to set up, and I've

found out I got delegated to my union's conference.

But there you go again, making assumptions. You

said earlier you didn't think people who do fuck all

should criticise Charlie, which I wasn't doing. But

then I also don't do fuck all. So you were woefully

incorrect on both counts.Wednesday at 11:59pm via mobile Like 17

Alexander Carver" I might add that some of the

other participants chosen by the conference

programmers are not exactly known for their

awareness or respect for feminism."

ah. Well it looks like agendas have been set prior to

this. I did wonder how things escalated so quickly.

Robert Jack FWIW Naomi Bee is (i think) a really

comitted trade unionist and yes, takes on maleoppression outside of the left via campaigns for the

living wage and so forth. I'm sure there's much more

to you than that Naomi, that's the bits i know

Yesterday at 12:00am Edited Like 1

Naomi Bee So, women should point out sexism,

quietly, and politely. And they should only point out

the 'real' sexism, which they will know, as men will

tell them.

Yesterday at 12:00am Like 10

Charlie Bramley Not really actually, this thread

sparked my interest, and only THEN, did I see whoelse was selected as part of the programme. It's

relevant, because it gives an insight into the thought

behind selection.

Yesterday at 12:02am Like 1

Charlotte Bence Yeah- Naomi, we can stop all

this feminism nonsense. The men will tell us when to

fight women's oppression. Haven't you got, I dunno,

socks to darn for your man, or something else to be

getting on with?

Yesterday at 12:02am via mobile Like 8
https://www.facebook.com/browse/likes?id=152596141566570https://www.facebook.com/#https://www.facebook.com/mobile/https://www.facebook.com/events/152104244949093/permalink/152413648251486/?comment_id=152596141566570&offset=50&total_comments=192https://www.facebook.com/charlotte.bencehttps://www.facebook.com/bro

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