Exhibit B-3 Text Designations (Thompson-West)moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Perez11885.pdf · Exhibit B-3 Text Designations (Thompson-West) ... Rogene Coleman,

Exhibit B-3

Text Designations

(Thompson-West)

Case 5:11-cv-00360-OLG-JES-XR Document 1092-4 Filed 06/13/14 Page 1 of 168

INDEX TO TEXT DESIGNATIONS

Volume I

Witness Page No.

Anchia, Rafael

Archer, Jeffrey

Aycock, Jimmie Don

Bruce, Bonnie

Callanen, Jacquelyn

Calvert, Rogene

Coleman, Garnet

Davis, Denise

Davis, Yvonne

De Leon, Sergio

Delco, Wilhelmina

Downton, Ryan

Dukes, Dawnna

Dyer, Clare

Farrar, Jessica

Garza, John

Geren, Charlie

Gonzales, Larry

Hanna, David

5

53

65

83

155

171

202

217

224

262

281

304

343

383

402

435

444

474

489


Volume II

Witness Page No.

Herrero, Abel

Hunter, Todd

Johnson, Gordon

Kaufman, Lisa

Lozano, J.M.

Margo, Donald

Marquez, Marisa

Martinez-Fischer, Trey

Menendez, Jose

Moody, Joe

Oliveira, Rene

Pickett, Joe

Raymond, Richard

Rodriguez, Armando

Rodriguez, Eddie

Rodriguez, Jose

Seliger, Kel

Solomons, Burt

5

41

59

63

83

123

145

192

241

249

301

319

363

371

382

428

462

469


Volume III

Witness Page No.

Thompson, Senfronia

Trabulsi, Richard

Turner, Chris

Vo, Hubert

West, Royce

5

71

73

127

156


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations SENFRONIA THOMPSON

1

State Defendants’

Deposition Designations for

Senfronia Thompson



2

8:14-16

14 Would you please state your full name for

15 the record?

16 A. Senfronia Thompson.

13:21-25

21 Q. I'll ask you a little bit about yourself. You

22 live in Houston, Texas, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You live in District 141?

25 A. Yes.

15:10-16:3

10 Q. I want to ask you about the Texas Legislative

11 Council. You've served in the legislature almost

12 40 years; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Has it been from the same district,

15 District 141?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During your service, have you had occasion to

18 work with the Texas Legislative Council?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you regard them as a neutral legal advisor ?

21 A. I get them to draft bills for me and I ask

22 them questions about it, if I have any, and that 's it.

23 Q. Do you consider those communications to be

24 attorney-client privileged when you communicate with the



3

25 Texas Legislative Council?

Page 16

1 A. When bills are drafted and you communicate

2 with them, they are privileged between them and t he

3 member.

23:25-24:7

25 Q. Okay. I'm not going to get this one out, but

Page 24

1 do you know that you were also disclosed by the

2 Congressperson Plaintiffs in this case as a poten tial

3 witness?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Okay. So you've been disclosed at least by

6 three organizations; are you aware of that?

7 A. No. Thank you for informing me.

29:7-10

7 Q. You've been in Legislature a long time. Would

8 you agree that redistricting is one of the most d ivisive

9 issues that a legislative body can confront?

10 A. It is one of them.

32:10-17

10 Q. Okay. Your district is in north Houston,

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. It contains much of Humble; is that correct?

14 A. No, not much of Humble. It contains some



4

15 parts of Humble, a small part of that.

16 Q. And the other part of Humble, who has it?

17 A. Representative Huberty.

34:8-12

8 Q. All right. So I want to ask you about your

9 personal knowledge of the 2011 legislative proces s.

10 First of all, were you on the Redistricting Comm ittee in

11 2011?

12 A. No.

34:22-25

22 Q. Okay. And that's really what I'm asking you.

23 Was your focus during the 2011 Session on Harris County

24 and District 141 specifically?

25 A. It was.

35:10-36:2

10 Q. Okay. So Harris County was your singular

11 focus with the House map?

12 A. Well, my singular focus was District 141; and

13 my second focus was Harris County.

14 Q. And I want to ask you about other areas. Did

15 you focus on Nueces County?

16 A. No, I don't live there.

17 Q. Dallas County?

18 A. No.

19 Q. San Antonio?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The issues that you worked on in 2011 related



5

22 to Harris County and District 141, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What about the Congressional map? Were there

25 specific areas of concern that you concentrated on, on

Page 36

1 the Congressional map?

37:14-19

14 Q. Okay. Your focus was primarily on the House;

15 that's where you'd been for 40 years, correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you've already told us your House focus

18 was on District 141 and Harris County?

19 A. Yes.

41:25-42:25

25 Q. So you're saying that the -- let's go back

Page 42

1 because I want to make sure I'm clear on what you 're

2 saying. There was an initial plan that you sought . Can

3 you tell us which plan that was?

4 A. Well, the Black Caucus had two plans. We had

5 a plan for the House and a plan, I think, for Har ris

6 County; and we all fit in this plan. And I went t o --

7 each person was working with this guy, "Javier In ferno,"

8 and Denise Davis, on the Speaker's staff. And whe n I

9 went back to look at my district, I didn't know i f I was

10 still in Texas or not.

11 Q. Okay. So you're saying when you originally



6

12 saw the map. Are you talking about Burt Solomons ' map,

13 Chairman Solomons' map?

14 A. When they were trying to finalize that map,

15 yes, and bring it to the Floor.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. And I went back and looked at my map, my

18 section, just to be sure because I had given up part of

19 my district to Dutton and part of my overage to Huberty;

20 and when I went back, I said, "Damn." I looked a t it;

21 and it was 66 percent new people. And I'm giving up

22 18,000 because I have an overage.

23 Q. Now, let's be clear: That was not the plan

24 that was passed?

25 A. No, it certainly wasn't.

45:12-46:7

12 Q. Okay. So let me ask you a little bit about

13 that. Chairman Solomons was appointed to be in c harge

14 of the Redistricting Committee during the sessio n of

15 2011, right?

16 A. Everybody was appointed to be a chairman of

17 the committee.

18 Q. And he was appointed in early 2011, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. By Speaker Straus, correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Speaker Straus, in appointing Chairman

23 Solomons -- do you know if Chairman Solomons had any



7

24 background in redistricting at all?

25 A. I don't have a clue.

Page 46

1 Q. And appointments, I assume they come out in

2 early February of the session; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 But if I might go back to that question,

5 I don't know anybody that ever had any background in

6 redistricting that's been appointed to chair thos e

7 committees.

47:4-50:14

4 So with respect to your interactions with

5 the staff working on redistricting, did you have any

6 communications with Chairman Solomons?

7 A. Oh, yes.

8 Q. Okay. How many times did you talk to him

9 about redistricting?

10 A. I don't recall because -- I don't recall

11 because there was a map from -- there was just o odles of

12 maps floating around. Everybody had a map. When I say

13 "everybody," this is what I'm speaking of: There were a

14 lot of different interest groups, both for Democ ratic

15 and Republican interest groups, that had maps fl oating

16 around. And then members had individual maps tha t

17 impacted their districts, and then the caucuses that

18 they may have been a part of -- or I should say the

19 delegations that they may have been a part of, h ad maps.



8

20 So there were a lot of maps floating around.

21 And I talked to him about my district,

22 and we talked about the Harris County District. I did

23 work -- I tell you who I did work close with tha t I just

24 recalled. I worked real close with the guy that kind of

25 came up with a map that was going to work; and t hat was

Page 48

1 the guy from Baytown, Smith. I can't think of his name

2 now. He's chairman of licensing.

3 Q. Wayne Smith?

4 A. Wayne Smith, yes. We had worked together, and

5 we kept talking about how we can preserve the 25. And

6 what he would do, I would talk to -- I would try to talk

7 to my colleagues from Harris County to look at th e maps.

8 And I did talk to them and I did have them come u p to my

9 office, the Democrats from Harris County, and loo k at

10 the map and see how their district was going to be

11 impacted and whether or not we could come togeth er, you

12 know, the two groups from Harris County, the Rep ublicans

13 and Democrats, and if we can, in fact, be able t o agree

14 on a map for Harris County. And he worked extens ively

15 on that.

16 Q. Wayne Smith did?

17 A. He did.

18 Q. And the two of you worked well together?

19 A. We worked together, but he did most of the

20 work. He really did. He did most of the work. An d we



9

21 just kind of asked different people, "What is it about

22 this map that you would like to see changed in y our

23 district?" Or "Could you agree to this, or could you

24 agree to that?"

25 Q. Okay. You've told me about sort of working a

Page 49

1 little with the Harris County Delegation. So I'm going

2 to talk about that in a minute, but I right now I want

3 to stick with Solomons.

4 A. Go ahead.

5 Q. How many times did you speak with Solomons

6 during --

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Can you give us an estimate?

9 A. I had a good relationship with him, so I don't

10 know.

11 Q. Okay. The two of you had a good relationship?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. Is that a "yes"?

14 A. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes, we did.

15 Q. All right. And he listened to your concerns?

16 A. He heard what I said.

17 Q. Okay. You also worked with Mr. Interiano?

18 A. Yes, I worked with him.

19 Q. And he listened to your concerns?

20 A. And "Mr. Inferno," he would listen to you; an d

21 he would just go on the little computer and not say very



10

22 much. He was nice. He wasn't difficult to work w ith.

23 He was a very nice, cordial person to work with, uh-huh.

24 Q. Okay. You said you worked with Lisa Kaufman?

25 A. Yes.

Page 50

1 Q. And how many interactions did you have with

2 her?

3 A. Maybe a couple of them.

4 Q. Did she listen to your concerns?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What about Denise Davis?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did Ms. Davis listen to your concerns?

9 A. She listened.

10 Q. And how many communications did you have with

11 her?

12 A. Let me tell you something: I raised the

13 goddamn roof off the Capitol one night. They hea rd what

14 I had to say.

51:8-55-6

8 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) You talked about numerous

9 groups talking to the redistricting folks about w hat

10 they wanted, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. One of those was the Black Legislative Caucus ?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The Mexican American Legislative Caucus?



11

15 A. Well, we never see their maps. I don't recall

16 seeing their maps.

17 Q. Do you recall seeing MALC maps?

18 A. No. When I knew anything about their maps, it

19 may have been on the Floor when the bill was pre sented

20 or something like that.

21 Q. Okay. What other interest groups are you

22 aware of having conversations with the map drawe rs?

23 A. I told you about Wayne Smith. We were trying

24 to make that Harris County Delegation map. And t hen

25 Russ Tidwell had his group, had a map. He had

Page 52

1 everybody -- he had everybody in a situation wher e he

2 had the whole state map, the counties and all thi s kind

3 of stuff. So some of the Hispanics from Harris Co unty

4 appeared to have been leaning towards his map; an d it

5 looked pretty good, you know. It wasn't too far f rom

6 what Wayne Smith and I had been working on.

7 Q. And who was this, what was the name?

8 A. Russ Tidwell, TTLA, Texas Trial Lawyers

9 Association.

10 Q. So you recall from the 2011 Session that the

11 Texas Trial Lawyers Association had a redistrict ing map

12 that you liked?

13 A. Russ Tidwell had one. And it was -- the

14 Harris County portion that I saw was similar to what

15 Wayne Smith and I had been working on and trying to kind



12

16 of get an agreement from the group. My job was t o work

17 with the Democrats and his was to work with the

18 Republicans and see how we can harmonize our map s and

19 maintain the 25, if we could.

20 Q. You talked about working with Wayne Smith of

21 Harris County?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It's true, isn't it, that Chairman Solomons

24 initially said, "I want this to be a member-driv en

25 process"?

Page 53

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And that's something he said throughout

3 the 2011 redistricting process; is that right?

4 A. Well, I heard him say it a couple of times.

5 Q. And so when did the Harris County Delegation

6 first meet to discuss the drawing of House Distri cts in

7 Harris County?

8 A. We never really met initially to draw the

9 districts. I think that we kind of talked among

10 ourselves and maybe people began to give little maps of

11 what they would like their district to look like and we

12 tried to see how we can fit those things in ther e. We

13 didn't just have a meeting where the whole deleg ation

14 said, "Here's a map."

15 Q. Did the Harris County Delegation ever come up

16 with a map of Harris County House Districts?



13

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember who --

19 A. No. Only the map that Wayne Smith came up

20 with and that's the one that I had in my office and I

21 asked the Democrats to come up and look at the m ap and

22 see whether or not they liked it and what change s, if

23 any, would they make to the map.

24 Q. Did you like the Wayne Smith map?

25 A. I did.

Page 54

1 Q. Was the Wayne Smith map incorporated in

2 Chairman Solomons' plan?

3 A. I don't recall whether it was or not.

4 Q. Who else did you meet with from the Harris

5 County Delegation, regarding the drawings of Harr is

6 County?

7 A. Just the members.

8 Q. Can you name any of the other members that

9 were involved other than Wayne Smith?

10 A. I met with Jessica. I met with Sylvester. I

11 met with Harold Dutton. I met with Dan Huberty. I

12 talked to Armando Walle and maybe Carol Alvarado because

13 all of them are right around my district, you kn ow. And

14 since I had to give up 18,000 votes, I had to kn ow which

15 way -- you know, I mean, I had to see which way my

16 district had to move in order to eliminate those 18,000

17 individuals.



14

18 Q. You've said 18,000 several times. Are you

19 saying that, based on the new Census numbers, th at your

20 district -- as you began the 2011 process, that your

21 district had an overage of 18,000 people?

22 A. When the Census came out, sometime March of

23 that year, it showed that I had almost 18,000 pe rsons

24 overage.

25 Q. But when you saw the overage of 18,000, you

Page 55

1 knew that wasn't going to be the way your distric t was

2 going to -- it wasn't going to be finalized that way,

3 right?

4 A. I was thinking that I was going to be able to

5 maintain the core part of my district and not be sent

6 out to Hitler Land, the way my district was first drawn.

58:23

23 (Exhibit 6 marked.)

59:5-61:8

5 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) So I'm handing you

6 Exhibit 6. Can you tell me which of those individ uals

7 on that list that you worked with on the Harris C ounty

8 plan?

9 A. Okay. I worked with Huberty in 127, Wayne

10 Smith in 128. I think I worked with Sarah Davis in 129;

11 there was something that she was trying to get.

12 Hochberg, 137; Turner, 139; Walle in 140; Dutton in 142;

13 Anna Hernandez, 143; Alvarado in 145; Miles, 146 ;



15

14 Farrar, 148; Vo, 149; Riddle in 150; Harless, in 126.

15 Q. Okay. And do you recall if you were working

16 with the Harris County Delegation before the Sol omons

17 map was introduced in mid April, or after?

18 A. I believe that we had -- I believe that Wayne

19 Smith had started working on the Harris County m ap prior

20 to Wayne's -- prior to Solomon having introduced his

21 bill.

22 Q. Okay. Now, do you know if Wayne Smith

23 introduced a plan in the 2011 Session?

24 A. I do not recall whether or not he did or not.

25 I do know that there was -- there was no consens us from

Page 60

1 the Harris County Delegation on his plan.

2 Q. But you worked with Representative Smith and

3 you had no problem with your district as drawn in

4 Representative Smith's plan; is that right?

5 A. I don't believe I did.

6 Q. Okay. So you were in agreement with

7 Representative Smith's plan, but the majority of the

8 Harris County Delegation was not in agreement?

9 A. It appears as though from the Democratic side

10 that they were not. I don't know what the Republ icans

11 were, but I can tell you from the Democratic sid e

12 because that was my side to work.

13 Q. Okay. So the Democrats didn't agree with

14 Representative Smith's plan?



16

15 A. No.

16 Q. And so do you know if his plan went forward a s

17 the Harris County Delegation plan?

18 A. I do not.

19 Q. I think you've already told me your

20 concentration was on Harris County. Do you know if

21 other county delegations were able to work out a n

22 agreement, San Antonio, for example, or Dallas?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Okay. Now, you would agree that Exhibit 6 is

25 a list of all the representatives, all the sitti ng

Page 61

1 representatives in the 2011 Legislature; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And you'd also agree with me that 13

4 out of 25 of the individuals in the Harris County

5 Delegation were Republican?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The other 12 were Democrats, correct?

8 A. Yes.

64:2-7

2 Q. Now, one thing that's true is that in 2011,

3 coming into the session, there were 101 Republica ns

4 within the Texas House; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And 49 Democrats?

7 A. Yes.



17

Page 66:2-5

2 Q. You're happy with your district as it was

3 passed in the H283 Plan from 2011?

4 A. Well, I wasn't totally happy; but I was more

5 happy than what I had been.

66:16-67:8

16 Q. But my question is: Did you have any specific

17 discussions with Mr. Interiano that you believe the

18 discussions themselves reflected any sort of rac ial

19 animus?

20 A. I didn't talk to "Mr. Inferno" that much.

21 When I talked to "Mr. Inferno," it was specifica lly

22 about lines and things in my district; and my

23 conversation was very short and to the point. An d we

24 didn't have long conversations that I could be a ble to

25 ascertain what his -- based on what he told me, what his

Page 67

1 thought process may be.

2 Q. And so the answer to the question is "no,"

3 then, right?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Well, can you recall any specific discussions

6 that you had with Interiano that you believe refl ected

7 an intent to discriminate?

8 A. I don't recall any.



18

67:13-17

13 Q. Were there any discussions with any members o f

14 the Houston delegation that you believe reflecte d an

15 intent to discriminate?

16 A. I can't remember. I don't recall any at this

17 time.

68:6-69:20

6 Did you talk with Speaker Straus during

7 the redistricting process?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Did you talk to him about redistricting?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Did you discuss the House plan?

12 A. I discussed District 141.

13 Q. Okay. Did you raise concerns about your

14 district?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Was this the night you raised the roof?

17 A. Well, yes.

18 Q. Were your concerns listened to?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. District 141 was drawn to something more

21 towards your liking, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It was changed substantially from what it was

24 in the original plan, correct?

25 A. Yes.



19

Page 69

1 Q. And you like your district as it's drawn now,

2 the constituents that are drawn into your distric t?

3 A. I like it much better than what it was.

4 Q. Do you have any criticisms of your district as

5 it's drawn currently?

6 A. It could be better drawn, but I like it much

7 better than what they had drawn it.

8 Q. Better how?

9 A. Well, there are some precincts that I think I

10 should have been able to keep in my district.

11 Q. You and Mr. Huberty had some discussions abou t

12 Humble?

13 A. I gave Mr. Huberty some of Humble. The

14 discussions we had, I agreed to give him a part of

15 Humble and swap some things with him.

16 Q. Okay. But there were parts of Humble that you

17 gave him that you would have liked to have kept?

18 A. No, not necessarily. I had a good

19 relationship with the people that I gave him and he

20 asked me as a favor to him and I granted him tha t favor.

70:13-21

13 Q. It sounds to me like the majority of your

14 concerns were addressed whenever you called this to the

15 attention of the map drawers and how they had dr awn your

16 district.

17 A. They were drafts until we got to San Antonio.



20

18 Q. Okay. And we'll talk about that; but I want

19 to ask you: In the 2011 Session, your concerns a bout

20 your district were addressed?

21 A. The majority of them were addressed, yes.

72:23-75:18

23 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) If we go to the third page

24 of Exhibit 5, this is the House District Plan H1 00. So,

25 in other words, the Districts run under the new Census

Page 73

1 figures. You can see the Census figures are right

2 there, Plan H100 data, 2010 Census. So I want you to

3 go -- and we agree that the House Districts in Ha rris

4 County were 126 through 150, right?

5 A. Yes, that's what you told me.

6 Q. You don't disagree with that, do you?

7 A. I don't know any different.

8 Q. Okay. So District 126 was Harless, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so let's look at that under Deviation; an d

11 you'll see on that line that Harless is over by

12 2.77 percent, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Representative Huberty was over by

15 11.61 percent, correct?

16 A. That's what it says.

17 Q. In 127.

18 In District 128, Representative Wayne



21

19 Smith was under by 11.23, right?

20 A. How do you determine "under"?

21 Q. It's the negative on the Deviation.

22 A. Oh, I see. I was looking at the one above it.

23 Uh-huh.

24 Q. So Wayne Smith was under 18,000, which was

25 11.23 percent in District 128, right? That's wha t that

Page 74

1 says, right?

2 A. Sure, yes.

3 Q. District 129, Sarah Davis was underpopulated

4 by 16,839 or 10 percent, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. District 130 was Representative Fletcher; and

7 he was over by 84,749 or 50.56 percent, right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. I'm not going to go through every one

10 of these; but I want to ask you: Clearly, coming into

11 the session, those districts had to be changed? To get

12 within a 5 percent population deviation, the dis tricts

13 in Harris County, the majority of them, had to b e

14 changed?

15 A. I was interested in 141.

16 Q. Okay. And let's look at 141. District 141

17 comes in under the H100 numbers at 17,000 people over,

18 right? Is that right?

19 A. Yes.



22

20 Q. Okay. So there had to be shifts in your

21 district as well, based on the Census numbers, c orrect?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So we know, based on these numbers, that ther e

24 had been diffuse growth in Harris County. Differ ent

25 districts were over; different districts were un der,

Page 75

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so there had to be change. Because of the

4 one-person-one-vote requirement, there had to be changes

5 in those House Districts throughout Harris County ,

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, one of the concerns that

9 you've raised is that at some point along the way , you

10 were informed that Harris County was going to ha ve 24

11 districts, rather than 25, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know who made that decision?

14 A. I do not know, but I think there was a --

15 there may have been a map filed by Woolley that

16 reflected 24.

17 Q. Okay. Do you know why that decision was made?

18 A. I don't recall why the decision was made.

76:7

7 MR. SWEETEN: Exhibit 9.



23

76:9-81:9

9 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right. So what I'm

10 going to show you on Exhibit 7 is -- these are t he 2000

11 Census numbers, and you can see on the top it sa ys that

12 the ideal district population is 139,000. Do you see

13 that? It's right at the top right there (indicat ing.)

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you know how that figure was derived?

16 A. From the population.

17 Q. That's right. You divide the overall Census

18 population by 150 House Districts, that's right, so you

19 get an ideal population of 139. Now, looking dow n, it

20 says Harris County had -- was entitled to, based on

21 that, 24.4625 districts. Do you see that, on the top

22 line?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And then let's look at the next

25 exhibit, which is Exhibit Number 8; and it's the same

Page 77

1 thing. Once again, it's the ideal district popula tion,

2 derived from dividing 150 into the overall Census

3 numbers; and they came up with 167,637. Did I get that

4 right? That's what that says, right?

5 A. That's about what I have now.

6 Q. Right. So that became the ideal district

7 population for all the House Districts in Texas, right?

8 A. Uh-huh.



24

9 Q. Now, if you divide that number into the

10 overall population of Harris County, which you'l l see is

11 done on the first line, it says 4,092,459. Do yo u see

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And then the district numbers there are

15 24.4126, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, the other exhibit I gave you, which is

18 Exhibit 9, is the Whole County Rule. You're fami liar

19 with this Texas Constitutional Provision, right?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. In the 40 years that you've done

22 redistricting, the County Line Rule has been som ething

23 that has been applied in redistricting situation s every

24 time; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 78

1 Q. Okay. And so in looking at the Whole County

2 Rule, it indicates that, "The Members of the Hous e of

3 Representatives shall be apportioned among the se veral

4 counties according to the number of population in each

5 as nearly as may be on a ratio of 10 by dividing the

6 population of the state as ascertained by the mos t

7 recent United States Census by the number of memb ers by

8 which the House is composed." I'll stop there.

9 Now, the clear wording of the County Law



25

10 Rule requires that the apportionment is to occur as

11 nearly as may be. Do you agree that's what that says?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And you would agree with me, too, that

14 with respect to the 24.4126 that Harris County c ame in

15 on in 2010, that 24 is clearly closer to 24.4126 than 25

16 is, right?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. From an arithmetic standpoint and from a

19 County Line Rule standpoint, you would agree wit h me

20 that the correct interpretation is to apply 24 H ouse

21 Districts and apportion those to Harris County?

22 MS. SITTON: Objection. Calls for a

23 legal conclusion.

24 Q You can answer. She makes

25 an objection for the record; and unless your cou nsel at

Page 79

1 some point -- and I don't think we'll get there - -

2 instructs you not to answer, then you can answer the

3 question.

4 MR. WASHINGTON: Yes.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. We'll fight about the

7 objection later. That's how we'll do that.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. Was this explained to you during the 2011

10 redistricting process, that based on the Whole C ounty



26

11 Rule and the "as nearly as may be" language, tha t we are

12 going to utilize 24, rather than 25 in Harris Co unty?

13 A. I knew we didn't have the numbers for the 25.

14 I became aware of the fact that we did not have the

15 numbers to maintain the 25.

16 Q. Are you critical of that decision?

17 A. Am I critical of that decision?

18 Q. To apportion 24 districts in Harris County,

19 instead of 25?

20 A. Yeah, I thought we should have had 25.

21 Q. Why?

22 A. Because I thought there was enough

23 undercounting in the area that would have given us the

24 25.

25 Q. You felt like the Census undercounted?

Page 80

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Okay. So let's assume you're applying the

3 Census numbers. And I mean -- let me just ask you :

4 They applied the Census numbers, correct? They ha ve

5 every time that you've been in the house when the y've

6 done redistricting, correct?

7 A. That's what they told us.

8 Q. They utilized the Census numbers that were

9 generated by the Federal government?

10 A. That's what we were told.

11 Q. But when you apply the Census numbers



27

12 themselves, you would agree that this would nece ssitate

13 a conclusion that 24 House seats should be appor tioned

14 to Harris County, rather than 25?

15 MS. SITTON: Same objection.

16 A. It would appear as though that's what it is.

17 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Other than the undercount

18 that you feel like the Census applied, do you ha ve any

19 other reason that you believe that 25 should be

20 apportioned to Harris County, rather than 24?

21 A. I can't think of another reason at this time.

22 Q. Are you aware of what was done in 2001?

23 A. In regards to what?

24 Q. That's fair. With respect to how many House

25 Districts were apportioned by the Legislature in 2001.

Page 81

1 A. I know we got 25.

2 Q. Okay. The result was 25; but do you know what

3 the Legislature passed, what bill was passed as f ar as

4 how many were apportioned to Harris County by the

5 Legislature?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. Do you recall if there were 24 passed by the

8 Legislature?

9 A. I don't recall.

82:23-84:25

23 Q. Do you recall cosponsoring Plan H202 in the

24 2011 Redistricting Session?



28

25 A. No. You said -- what was that, H202?

Page 83

1 Q. H202, yes, ma'am.

2 A. That was the caucus plan, wasn't it?

3 Q. That's right, the Legislative Black Caucus'

4 plan.

5 A. I probably did.

6 Q. Do you recall anything specific about that

7 plan?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you have any reason, as you're sitting here

10 today, to believe that that plan -- do you know

11 specifically what the plan did?

12 A. Well, I know it took care of what I was

13 interested in in District 141.

14 Q. Okay. But the Legislature in 2011 took care

15 of your district, too, though, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. And that was your primary concern; and

18 you were satisfied -- even though you had to arg ue for

19 your district, you were happy with 141 in the en d?

20 A. Well, I was more likely -- I was more happy

21 than I was disappointed in it.

22 Q. Okay. This isn't the first time that you've

23 had to provide your input --

24 A. No, it's not.

25 Q. -- and to raise your concerns about your



29

Page 84

1 district in a redistricting session, right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. There have been other times when you've also

4 had to -- you have to defend your district, corre ct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you did that in 2011?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And for the most part, your concerns about 141

9 were listened to?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Would you agree that when House Bill 150 was

12 being debated in the 2011 Legislature, which had the

13 initial House plan, would you agree that it did not --

14 that there had not at that point been agreement by the

15 Harris County Delegation?

16 A. I would agree with that, yes.

17 Q. In fact, isn't it true that on the Floor of

18 the House, on April 27th of 2011 -- I've got a d ocument

19 if you want to look at it --

20 A. Good.

21 Q. -- that the debate stopped while the Harris

22 County Delegation went back to meet to discuss i ssues

23 with the district?

24 A. I remember us huddling up about something

25 regarding that bill.

86:20-89:5



30

20 Q So I'll hand you Exhibit 10.

21 It's the House Journal. It's lengthy, but I will direct

22 you to the pages I want you to look at. And wher e I

23 want you to look is on page S793. It's numbered at the

24 top. It's really far in the back. And this has

25 excerpts of the House Journal debate from the 27 th of

Page 87

1 April.

2 All right. So I want you to look at the

3 middle of the page where it says, "SPEAKER: Membe rs,

4 we're going back to Harris County. Representative

5 Turner, Representative Woolley, Representative Co leman,

6 Representative Bohac. Members, the house will sta nd at

7 ease until 8:50 p.m."

8 Did I read that correctly?

9 A. You did.

10 Q. Is that the point whenever the House debate

11 stopped so the Harris County Delegation could me et?

12 A. It appears from this document that's when we

13 met.

14 Q. Okay. And this reflects that the House took a

15 break so additional details of the Harris County map

16 could be worked out, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, in fact, when they come back on the

19 record, it looks like Representative Woolley say s,

20 "Mr. Chairman, members, this is an amendment tha t



31

21 affects some of the districts in Harris County. It's

22 been discussed and agreed to and there is an ame ndment

23 to the amendment."

24 That's what Ms. Woolley said, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 88

1 Q. And then Amendment Number 24 by Coleman to

2 Amendment 23 was laid before the house. And, here ,

3 you've got a dialogue between Representative Cole man and

4 Representative Woolley, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And, here, Ms. Woolley said to Mr. Coleman,

7 "We all worked together in the back room, and you know

8 it changed your district some to a number that is about

9 what you have now. I'm not sure what we ended up with."

10 Coleman says, "It's 38.2 percent. And

11 from 39.2 percent in the map. But what I have no w is

12 38.2 percent."

13 Woolley says, "It was below what we were

14 told that might be acceptable as a black opportu nity

15 district. And we know that it's worked for you, but we

16 wanted to make sure that it is a black opportuni ty

17 district."

18 Coleman says, "That is correct."

19 Woolley says, "Can you give me that

20 assurance?"

21 Coleman says, "I can give that you



32

22 assurance. And I also believe that these changes do

23 not -- are not retrogression of District 147. An d also,

24 that it is still an effective opportunity distri ct where

25 African Americans can elect the candidate of the ir

Page 89

1 choice and have that opportunity to do so based o n this

2 map."

3 That's what Coleman said on the Floor,

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

Page 89:19-91:16

19 Q. Because it's not your recollection that you

20 had -- after the Garnet Coleman amendment had be en

21 passed or when that discussion occurred, that yo u were

22 raising concerns then; it was before?

23 A. No, because I recall when I went back on my

24 district that it also impacted the changes in Hu berty's

25 district because Huberty comes on my east side. And it

Page 90

1 also impacts Harold Dutton's district because Har old

2 Dutton comes on the east side; and I gave up a po rtion

3 of my district to Harold Dutton, about 10,000 or so

4 people on the east part of my district. And I did some

5 swaps with Huberty in the Humble area where he wa nted to

6 have his district more contiguous with what he wa s

7 representing.

8 Q. At the time you were very upset with how



33

9 District 141 was drawn, who was in the room meeti ng with

10 you about that issue?

11 A. Let's see. It was about 2:00-something in the

12 morning. My staffer, myself. I went and got Dutt on and

13 brought him back there. So I know Dutton was bac k

14 there. And, of course, Borris Miles came in. (Wi tness

15 laughing.) He came into the room while we were m eeting

16 and -- because what I did with my district, if I moved

17 it around, it's going to impact several other

18 individuals.

19 Q. And Huberty was in the room, too?

20 A. Yes. He and I had an agreement, and I was

21 taking -- and I had an agreement with Dutton.

22 Q. And so you worked out an agreement. Now,

23 somebody had to put it in the map. Was that Inte riano?

24 A. Yes. And what happened was: After we had our

25 discussions, we ended up about maybe 3:00, almos t 4:00

Page 91

1 o'clock in the morning. We came back a few hours later,

2 the following morning, about 9:00 or 9:30 that mo rning,

3 prior to session, 10:00 o'clock; and we come in t o make

4 sure that everything was finalized. And so we

5 basically, three of us Legislators, Dan Huberty, Harold

6 Dutton, and myself and my staffer, Denise Davis, "Javier

7 Inferno," Lisa Kaufman were basically in the room . And

8 that other guy might have been there; I just didn 't

9 notice him. And we basically finalized. And the



34

10 Speaker walks in when we're kind of at this end, just

11 checking, you know; and we are finalizing the ag reements

12 on the eastern part of my district and their res pective

13 districts.

14 Q. This occurred prior to the interruption on th e

15 House Floor, though, you're sure?

16 A. I believe it did.

91:20-95:20

20 Q. Okay. Interiano made the changes that you all

21 agreed to?

22 A. Yeah, "Inferno" made the changes. He sat

23 there, and he made the changes.

24 Q. And in those discussions, there had been some

25 give and take between you and Huberty?

Page 92

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. There had been some give and take between you

3 and Dutton?

4 A. Yeah. I didn't have to really do any give and

5 take between Huberty and myself. It was just he w anted

6 to make his district more contiguous, and I agree d to

7 it.

8 Q. You thought that was reasonable?

9 A. I thought it was reasonable, yeah. We work

10 together real well. We've known each other a lon g time,

11 and so we kind of swapped out some areas. And th en I

12 took care of Dutton because he had a deficiency, and I



35

13 gave him some 10,000 more people in that area ov er

14 there. And everything seemed like it was worked out.

15 Q. Okay. So the House passes the redistricting

16 bill, which has the changes that you negotiated with

17 Dutton and Huberty in it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. It originally didn't look like what you

20 wanted, but you were reasonably happy when this was

21 finalized?

22 A. Everybody wants a perfect something; but, you

23 know, it was reasonable.

24 Q. Do you have any criticisms at this point abou t

25 the way that your district was drawn as it ended up in

Page 93

1 the final map?

2 A. Well now, I could have kept the Hispanics that

3 I had rather than swapping out new ones, you know ,

4 especially because I was keeping the same percent age.

5 Q. I wasn't clear on who got them.

6 A. Walle and I swapped them out. I had to help

7 with him some because he would be short.

8 Q. So Walle had also come to you to negotiate

9 that, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So the swapping that you're saying occurred

12 was initiated by Armando Walle?

13 A. Yes, I had to give him some because he was



36

14 short; and then right under my district there si ts

15 Alvarado and Hernandez. They were short.

16 Q. And you had to --

17 A. So, I mean, I had almost run out of overage b y

18 this point, you know.

19 Q. Did you swap out --

20 A. I don't know if I was able to help them or no t

21 or how they were able to be helped because they was

22 tremendously below.

23 Q. So the swap-outs that you did of the Latino

24 districts were, to be clear, with Walle and Alva rado?

25 A. May have been a little bit Jessica. I'm not

Page 94

1 sure.

2 Q. So maybe Jessica Farrar?

3 A. And then I had to swap out something with

4 Sylvester Turner in an area because I got a porti on of

5 Harless' area because she had an overage, and I t hink I

6 got some from Riddle.

7 Q. From conservative areas?

8 A. But, you know, I get along with them.

9 Q. With Patricia Harless?

10 A. And people from Riddle. I get along with

11 those folks. Riddle wanted to go farther out fro m

12 Tomball.

13 Q. So it wasn't exactly what you wanted as far a s

14 those swaps, but you understood why you were doi ng it?



37

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you were satisfied because you were tryin g

17 to work with other members, right?

18 A. Well, I was basically, maybe about 85 percent

19 satisfied.

20 Q. Okay. Which, for a redistricting session,

21 based on your experience, is pretty good?

22 A. Well, I've done better than that in the past.

23 Q. Have you done worse?

24 A. No -- oh, yes. Yes, it gets worse. This one

25 gets worse (indicating.)

Page 95

1 Q. 2011 gets worse?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You're talking about the way the Court changed

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask that: You're happier

7 with the H283's draw of your district than what t he

8 Court changed in your district?

9 A. I had to get the Attorney General to come in

10 and help me with my district before that Court. It got

11 so terrible. I mean, now, we thought -- I though t that

12 we had gone through a process of holy hell getti ng these

13 Districts in the House. But when it went to that

14 San Antonio court, I don't know what they were t hinking

15 over there. It was like night and day when it ca me



38

16 back; and they had just ripped up my district, H elen

17 Giddings' district, Sylvester Turner's district, Harold

18 Dutton's district, and Borris Miles' district. I mean,

19 a lot of African-Americans were impacted, except I think

20 maybe one or two.

96:2-14

2 Q. So in terms of what you did not like that had

3 been done to your district, that was in the origi nal

4 Court-drawn plans or what was finally the final C ourt

5 plans?

6 A. I remember when the original Court plan came

7 out, it was just -- in my opinion, to my district , it

8 was atrocious. And at that time I called the Atto rney

9 General. I was, I guess, appealing it. And I call ed

10 and had some interaction with the Attorney Gener al's

11 Office, and I actually got back in my district b asically

12 almost what they had taken out.

13 Q. In the second interim plan?

14 A. Yes.

97:1-6

1 Q. All right. What was wrong with it? Just tell

2 me, generally.

3 A. I'm not sure if they even left my house in

4 there. They may have, but it was like a spider we b.

5 They changed my district just totally. It was

6 topsy-turvy, upside down.

97:18-24



39

18 Q. Okay. Well, did others express concerns to

19 the Attorney General regarding their districts, along

20 with you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who were some of those?

23 A. Harold Dutton did. I believe Borris Miles

24 did, and I believe Helen Giddings did.

98:23-99:4

23 Q. Okay. So I want to ask some followup

24 questions about 2011. Is there anything that you felt

25 was racially discriminatory about the final maps that

Page 99

1 were drawn as H283?

2 A. I don't remember what 283 was, but I think the

3 maps that came from San Antonio was totally

4 discriminatory, particularly against African-Amer icans.

100:18-101:23

18 Q. So let me see if I can get this in a nutshell .

19 If you have a criticism of H283, it's that there were

20 not enough dedicated Democratic districts?

21 A. No.

22 MS. SITTON: Objection. That

23 mischaracterizes prior testimony.

24 A. No. I'm saying that there were at least five

25 districts that could have been opportunity distr icts for

Page 101

1 Democrats to have been elected, and those opportu nities



40

2 were not taken into consideration in the drawing of

3 those maps.

4 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) Your criticism of H283 is

5 that there should have been more Democratic oppor tunity

6 districts?

7 A. There were five that could have been.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. One was in Bell County. I know one was in

10 Harris County, and there was five within the sta te, I

11 believe. There may have been one in Dallas, whic h would

12 have been a third one. I know there were about f ive of

13 them, and that was not taken into consideration.

14 Q. Other than those criticisms, do you have any

15 additional -- and that's five Democratic opportu nity

16 districts that you think should have been drawn?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you have any other criticisms of H283 othe r

19 than that?

20 A. I can't recall any at this time.

21 Q. Okay. Any other criticisms of the Harris

22 County map?

23 A. I can't recall any at this time.

105:17-109:1

17 Do you think that there were members of

18 the House -- let me ask it another way. Can you name

19 any members of the House of Representatives that voted

20 for Plan H283 with an intent to discriminate aga inst



41

21 Latinos or African-Americans?

22 A. Are you asking me to reach into somebody's

23 mind for their intent?

24 Q. I'm just wondering what your opinion is on

25 that.

Page 106

1 A. You're asking me to make a judgment on what

2 somebody's thinking. How do I do that?

3 Q. Is it your contention that Members of the

4 House who voted for Plan H283 did so with an inte nt to

5 discriminate against Latinos or African-Americans ?

6 MS. SITTON: Objection, calls for a legal

7 conclusion.

8 A. I think that when they sent "Inferno" down to

9 be a part of the map drawing, from Lamar Smith's office,

10 there was on intent to make sure that the Republ icans

11 stayed in power and that their districts stayed solidly

12 in place.

13 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) And the intent that you've

14 talking about there is an intent to keep Republi cans as

15 a majority in the House, is that --

16 A. Absolutely.

17 Q. Is that what you believed the intent of H283

18 was?

19 A. And to further make sure that they take

20 control of as many of the new Congressional seat s as

21 possible, that they made sure that those House s eats and



42

22 Senate seats that were, in fact, Republicans, we re very

23 Republicans with no opportunity for them to be a ble to

24 go in any way than a Republican seat.

25 Q. So if you believe that there was intent, it

Page 107

1 was an intent to put Republicans in power over

2 Democrats?

3 A. Well, they were already in power.

4 Q. To continue them in power over the Democrats?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that's what you believe the intent was?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you believe that the Members of the House

9 of Representatives that voted for H283 had that i ntent

10 in mind?

11 MS. SITTON: Objection, asked and

12 answered.

13 A. I don't know how I can reach into their minds

14 to see what their beliefs were, but I can tell y ou what

15 the outcome shows.

16 Q. (BY MR. SWEETEN) And the outcome shows...?

17 A. The outcome shows that there is an opportunit y

18 for them to remain in control and in solid seats and not

19 have to worry about them being other than Republ ican

20 seats.

21 MS. SITTON: Objection, asked and

22 answered.



43

23 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) And you think they did it

24 because they were Republicans?

25 A. They were in control.

Page 108

1 Q. And they wanted to keep control?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. Okay. And is that true of the Congressional

4 map, too? Is that what your belief was?

5 A. Yes, and the Senate map.

6 Q. Okay. All right. Let's turn to 2013. We're

7 halfway through.

8 You had supported -- you were happier

9 with the second San Antonio interim map than the first

10 one?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The original bill that comes out in the 2013

13 Session was a move to adopt the second Court-dra wn

14 interim plans from February of 2012; is that rig ht?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Speaker Straus appointed Chairman Drew Darby

17 to head the Redistricting Committee, correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He appointed you to be on the Redistricting

20 Committee?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you started the process by being happy

23 with what the Court -- the second Court map in w hat they



44

24 had drawn?

25 A. I started the process by being 85 percent

Page 109

1 happy.

109:5-7

5 Q. Did Speaker Straus call you and ask you to be

6 on it?

7 A. Yes.

116:10-24

10 Q. Okay. So did you express that you wanted more

11 hearings to be held?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Were more hearings held after you expressed

14 that?

15 A. There were more hearings. I think there were

16 like two or three more hearings held.

17 Q. There were field hearings held in different

18 places in the state?

19 A. There was one in San Antonio, one in Dallas,

20 and one in Houston.

21 Q. Do you know if the Senate held one in

22 Corpus Christi?

23 A. I do know the Senate held some hearings, but I

24 don't know how many they held.

118:3-119:14


4 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) I'm going to hand you what's



45

5 been marked as Exhibit Number 12. This is a list of the

6 members of the House Redistricting Committee, cor rect?

7 A. What do you want me to do with it?

8 Q. I want you to look at it and tell me if those

9 are the members of the House Redistricting Commit tee.

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Okay. And there's representation on this

12 committee from the Dallas area; is that correct?

13 A. Let me see. Okay. I see one person so far

14 from Dallas, Davis, Representative Davis. I don' t

15 know -- I know Jason is not from Dallas.

16 Q. How about Linda Harper-Brown?

17 A. Is she from Fort Worth or somewhere like that ?

18 Q. So let me ask this: There's membership on

19 this committee from the Dallas/Fort Worth area, right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. There's membership on this committee from

22 Houston?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Membership from San Antonio?

25 A. Yes.

Page 119

1 Q. Membership on this committee from Corpus?

2 A. Who's the Corpus person?

3 Q. Todd Hunter.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Membership on this committee from El Paso?



46

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. From border areas?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. African-Americans on this committee?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Hispanics?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Anglos?

14 A. Yes

119:20-120:24

20 Q. Do you know if a hearing was held in

21 San Antonio by the House Redistricting Committee ?

22 A. There was.

23 Q. There was one in Dallas, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I've got three in Austin, three committee

Page 120

1 hearings in Austin. Does that sound right?

2 A. Yes. They had two in the beginning back to

3 back, no citizens' notice except a poster. It was

4 difficult getting your constituents there, especi ally on

5 work days and at 10:00 a.m. in the mornings.

6 Q. There was a hearing held in Houston --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- a field hearing here; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Citizens were able to come in and provide



47

11 input?

12 A. After we had bitched about the fact about the

13 way they were holding the two meetings back to b ack with

14 no citizen input, they began to hold these field

15 hearings in San Antonio and in Dallas and in Hou ston.

16 Q. Do you think it was a good thing to hold

17 hearings in different places in the state?

18 A. Absolutely because people have the right to

19 know and a right to give their input.

20 Q. Now, the Senate held hearings in Corpus,

21 Houston, Austin?

22 A. You told me they had them. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know if they did?

24 A. I don't know what they had.

127:21-130:1

21 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) So, Ms. Thompson, we were

22 talking when we left about the 2013 Texas redist ricting

23 process. And the chairman of the committee was C hairman

24 Darby; and he spoke on May 31st, 2013. I want to show

25 you a portion of the House Journal that reflects some of

Page 128

1 his remarks and just ask you a few questions abou t that.

2 A. Well, first of all, I want to tell you he was

3 a good chairman.

4 Q. You thought he was a good chairman?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. You thought he was fair?



48

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. You worked well with him?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 What do you want me to see about this?

11 Q. I want to point out these are his original

12 remarks on May 31st. I think this is the origina l House

13 Redistricting Session, and I really just want to turn

14 your attention to a paragraph. He said --

15 A. What page?

16 Q. It's on page 4, which is the first page.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. So he says, "I intend for this committee to

19 actively debate and consider alternatives to leg islation

20 brought before this committee. Starting with rev iew of

21 the existing court ordered interim maps today an d

22 tomorrow, I anticipate additional pieces of legi slation

23 will be referred to this committee on Monday, Ju ne 3rd,

24 when the House reconvenes. It is my intention to hear

25 these Bills prior to the Committee making a fina l

Page 129

1 determination on any Bills referred to it. This w ould

2 include any amendments to the four Bills before u s today

3 or the handful of others that have been filed in the

4 House."


6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Then it says, "I believe that the court



49

8 ordered interim maps are legally sufficient."

9 A. Page 5?

10 Q. Yes, ma'am, middle of the page.

11 "They are the maps we were all elected

12 under and the maps that our constituents are fam iliar

13 with, but I am not willing to rubber stamp any p roposal

14 that has not been evaluated by this committee an d

15 appropriate alternatives considered. I believe i t is

16 incumbent on this committee to make necessary

17 corrections to the court ordered maps if legally

18 required changes are necessary to comply with th e Voting

19 Rights Act or the United States Constitution."


21 A. You did.

22 Q. From the start, Representative Darby indicate d

23 that he would consider other amendments if they were

24 necessary to correct or if they were legally req uired

25 changes, correct? That's what he said?

Page 130

1 A. That's what I read here.

130:6-131:3

6 Q. Yes, ma'am. It was clear that alternative

7 plans were allowed to be filed in this redistrict ing

8 session, correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In fact, alternative plans were filed during

11 this session, correct?



50

12 A. I assume that from his statement that he was

13 going to consider any plans that would fall with in the

14 gambit of the Voters Right Act, but those were g oing to

15 be in the forms of amendments to what we already had if

16 there were some corrections to be made.

17 Q. But, certainly, alternative plans were filed

18 during the '13 Session, correct?

19 A. Absolutely.

20 Q. And alternative plans were debated in the

21 Redistricting Committee sessions, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it's also true that he asked in his

24 introductory remarks for there -- that in the ev ent

25 somebody wanted to make a change, that they be s pecific

Page 131

1 as to what those alternatives should be, right?

2 A. Yes, and that there would also be changes

3 within the guidelines of what the Court had indic ated.

131:21-133:14


22 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) I've marked this as

23 Exhibit 14. Have you seen the opinion of the Cou rt

24 related to the House maps?

25 A. No.

Page 132

1 Q. Is this something that you reviewed at any



51

2 time prior to the '13 session?

3 A. No.

4 Q. If you'd turn to page 2, I want to show you in

5 the middle of the page, the Court's order says, " The

6 Supreme Court has directed this Court to implemen t an

7 interim map plan by taking guidance from the enac ted

8 plan except in geographical areas in which the pl an is

9 legally defective."


11 A. You did.

12 Q. On the next page, on the very top, it says,

13 "Accordingly, we analyze the various claims and defenses

14 to the enacted plan under Sections 2 and 5 of th e VRA

15 and the Constitution."


17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You understand, certainly, in reading this

19 that the Court had analyzed the claims of defens es to

20 the enacted plans under Sections 2 and 5 and the

21 Constitution at this point, correct?

22 A. Yes, according to this.

23 Q. All right. And it's also true, the next

24 sentence says, "Following the Supreme Court's di rection

25 to leave undisturbed any district that is free f rom

Page 133

1 legal defect, this Court's interim map to the Tex as

2 House configures 122 of the 150 districts in the



52

3 identical manner as per the Legislature."


5 A. I don't see where you're reading from. Oh,

6 following -- okay.

7 Q. Did I read that correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. So starting the consideration of the

10 House plan in the 2013 Session, the Court had al ready,

11 as they state, had the opportunity -- or had had the

12 opportunity to analyze litigants' claims against

13 Plan H283, right?

14 A. Yes, yes.

133:22-134:15

22 Q. Okay. So you start the redistricting process

23 with an interim order that has analyzed the 2011 claims

24 for Section 2, Section 5, and Constitutional pro blems,

25 right?

Page 134

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And Representative Darby starts the

3 redistricting hearing on May 31st of 2013 by sayi ng, "I

4 will look at alternatives," and, in particular, t hat he

5 was looking for legally required changes, right?

6 A. Legal defects, correct.

7 Q. And that starts the Committee's process in

8 2013, this statement by Chairman Darby as to what the



53

9 House will be looking to do, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And we've already talked about the multiple

12 hearings that were held. Some citizens certainly came

13 in and provided their criticisms or suggestions,

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

135:22-136:7

22 Q. So Chairman Darby indicated that he wasn't

23 just going to rubber stamp the plans; that's wha t he

24 said, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 136

1 Q. And in the Committee, the Committee members

2 had the opportunity to question citizens about th eir

3 concerns?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. And the Committee members had the opportunity

6 to debate issues amongst themselves?

7 A. Yes

136:24-137:3


25 Q. Here is a transcript from

Page 137

1 the House Redistricting Committee hearing in Dall as on

2 June 6th, 2013. Now, you were there?

3 A. Yes.



54

137:15-21

15 Q. Now, there was a discussion in the June 6th,

16 2013 hearing; and I want to turn your attention to it.

17 It's between Representative Davis and Chairman D arby, on

18 page 9. You can see it on page 9, which is the s econd

19 page of this exhibit, which is Number 15. You se e where

20 I am, at the bottom of page 9, Representative Da vis?

21 A. On the left side?

137:23-138:5

23 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) So what happened was that

24 these two attorneys appear and show up at the Da llas

25 redistricting hearing on June 6th, 2013, right?

Page 138

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at that point Representative Davis begins

3 to question them being present and representing t he

4 Committee Chair, correct?

5 A. Yes.

138:23-140:5

23 Q. But Representative Davis and you are not happ y

24 with the fact that he's hired Guinn and Morrison to

25 provide legal advice to the Committee Chair, rig ht?

Page 139

1 A. Right.

2 Q. And ultimately, when you expressed your

3 displeasure with this, on the top of page 13, wha t did



55

4 Chairman Darby say, at line 6?

5 A. Line 6?

6 Q. Yes, ma'am. If you would, just read that

7 portion from Chairman Darby.

8 A. "It would be my position we'll either amend

9 the contracts or make it clear to the attorneys t hat the

10 attorneys represent the committee in the process . This

11 is about process."

12 Q. Okay. And so three pages later in the

13 transcript, after the objection was made, you've hired

14 Guinn and Morrison. Chairman Darby expresses tha t he's

15 happy to allow Guinn and Morrison to advise indi vidual

16 members of the committee.

17 He says that, right?

18 A. Yes, according to what this says.

19 Q. And this was not done, though, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know if -- in fact, what happened was

22 that the two attorneys at the meeting leave the field

23 hearing and don't continue on serving as counsel for the

24 Committee Chair, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 140

1 Q. It was then expressed that

2 Representative Davis and Representative Darby wou ld

3 attempt to have some discussions on counsel at a later

4 time, right?



56

5 A. Yes.

140:21-141:24

21 Q. At any rate, his invitation to amend the

22 contract and to extend the use of these Baylor l aw

23 professors to other members of the Committee was

24 rejected by Representative Davis and other Democ ratic

25 members?

Page 141

1 A. Yes, by the members of the Committee. I don't

2 know if all of them were Democrats or not.

3 Q. Okay. The Texas Legislative Council appeared

4 as resource witnesses during the Committee hearin gs?

5 A. Yes. I asked the Chairman when I talked to

6 him, just one on one, that I believed it would be good

7 to have them there because they had been lawyers and had

8 participated in many, many redistricting meetings over

9 the last 40 years that I had been there; and I th ought

10 that their knowledge would add to the process.

11 Q. So TLC appeared based in part on your

12 suggestion that they come?

13 A. Well, the Chairman was kind enough to invite

14 them.

15 Q. But you had suggested it?

16 A. I asked the chairman to consider it.

17 Q. And Jeff Archer from TLC and David Hannah for m

18 TLC, both at different times, came in and testif ied

19 before the Committee?



57

20 A. They did.

21 Q. And they provided analysis about what the

22 Voting Rights Act covers and what's a protected district

23 and coalition districts and that sort of thing, correct?

24 A. Yes.

144:11-145:4

11 Q. Now, with respect to the House, you also --

12 ultimately, you did not support the passage of H 358, the

13 House map?

14 A. No, sir.

15 Q. And what were your criticisms of H358?

16 A. You want to know my criticism, or do you want

17 to know why I didn't support it?

18 Q. Why didn't you support it?

19 A. Okay. I did not support it because of the

20 fact that it did not reflect the best -- it did not

21 reflect the best situation for the Democrats; an d even

22 though I might have had 85 percent satisfied wit h the

23 map, I couldn't support a map that didn't reflec t the

24 best possible solution for all the Democrats.

25 Q. And you felt like H358 did not provide the

Page 145

1 best solution for the Democrats?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. And that's why you voted against it?




58

147:21-148:2

21 Q. Do you believe Chairman Darby's door was open

22 to you if you wanted to talk to him?

23 A. Yes. He was a good chairman. I mentioned he

24 was. I could talk to him. He was receptive. I co uld

25 disagree with him. He understood as well as I di d we

Page 148

1 were disagreeing over the issues, and I didn't ha ve any

2 problems communicating with him.

148:10-20

10 Q. What, in your view, is an economic engine?

11 What does that mean to you?

12 A. Well, it means businesses in an area that

13 helps the entire -- if I was to describe a distr ict,

14 stores, corporations.

15 Q. Universities?

16 A. Universities, absolutely. Public schools.

17 And when those engines are taken out or shut dow n or

18 marginalized to the extent that they leave, it

19 devastates the upward mobility of the community as a

20 whole.

151:7-25

7 Q. Okay. Are you aware that in the 2011

8 Redistricting Session some of the parties have al leged

9 that economic engines were removed from Congressi onal

10 Districts of African-American districts and not out of

11 white districts?



59

12 A. Well, I was not aware of it; but it wouldn't

13 surprise me if that happened.

14 Q. Okay. But that's not something you have an

15 opinion about one way or the other right now?

16 A. I'm not aware of it.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you're from Houston. So I'm going

18 to ask you a couple of questions about some econ omic

19 engines in Houston. First of all, Rice Universit y, is

20 that an economic engine, under your definition?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You're familiar that it's a world-class

23 institution, correct?

24 A. It is one of the few -- it's an Ivy League

25 School.

152:11-154:8

11 Q. At any rate, you would agree with me that Ric e

12 University is located here in Houston?

13 A. In the Museum District.

14 Q. Correct.

15 Now, I want to show you, if I can find

16 it, a map of Rice University. We'll just call th is 16.


18 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) So I'm going to put four

19 documents together. First is just a picture of R ice,

20 where it sits on the map; and then I'll show you some

21 Congressional districts in C100, C185, and C235. So

22 I've handed you Group Exhibit Number 16, right?



60

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, the first map just shows Rice University ,

25 right?

Page 153

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. The second map shows C100. This is the plan

3 that was in effect coming into the 2011 Session, right?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. You wouldn't dispute that C100 was the

6 benchmark plan that was in existence as the 2011 Session

7 convened, would you?

8 A. If you say it was a benchmark, that's the

9 benchmark.

10 Q. Okay. You understand that

11 Congressman Culberson has District CD7, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And as far as CD18 and CD2, that's Jackson Le e

14 and Poe, right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, in C100, Rice University and Rice Stadiu m

17 are located in Congressman Culberson's district, right;

18 that's what it reflects?

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. Is that what that shows?

21 A. If that's his district, it's what it shows.

22 Q. Okay. And then I want to show you the next --

23 then there's Plan C185. District 18 is whose dis trict?



61

24 A. Jackson Lee.

25 Q. So in Plan C185, Rice University was in Sheil a

Page 154

1 Jackson Lee's district, correct?

2 A. Well, it looks like part of it is in there.

3 Is the whole part of it in there?

4 Q. Well, you can see underneath where it says

5 Rice University that there is --

6 A. Well, I see some of it is on the Green side;

7 and then some of it looks like it's in 18. That's why I

8 asked was it divided.

154:14-17

14 Q. So does this reflect that Rice University is

15 in District 18, Sheila Jackson Lee?

16 A. It looks like to me it's in both District 7

17 and District 18.

155:9-157:11

9 Q. At any rate, it's true that under C185, that

10 at least you'll make room for the possibility th at most

11 of Rice University was moved to Sheila Jackson L ee's

12 district from Anglo Congressman Culberson's dist rict; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you about two other

16 areas. Would you agree that the Houston Medical

17 Center -- let's talk about industries in Houston . You

18 know this city; you've lived here all your life. You've



62

19 represented it for 40 years. Oil and gas is a bi g

20 economic driver, correct?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. Healthcare is a huge economic engine for this

23 city, correct?

24 A. It is, yes.

25 Q. Now, Baylor University Medical Center, they

Page 156

1 have a college of medicine here in Houston, right ?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And I'm going to go ahead and mark

4 these four maps as Exhibit 17.


6 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) First, I'll show you that

7 one. So Baylor College of Medicine in Plan C100, the

8 benchmark, was located in which district? What do es the

9 map reflect as the district?

10 A. It's located in two districts 7 and 9 -- and

11 18.

12 Q. All right. So you don't agree that the dot

13 that represents Baylor College of Medicine is wh ere it's

14 at?

15 A. Oh, is that where it is?

16 Q. Yes, ma'am, the dot.

17 A. Okay. Then, it's in 7.

18 Q. Okay. And we've already established that

19 Congressman Culberson represented CD7 as of 2011 , right?



63

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The third page shows were Baylor College of

22 Medicine was located in C185. Now, in C185, Bayl or

23 College of Medicine is located in CD18, under th is map,

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 157

1 Q. And, again, Congressman Sheila Jackson Lee

2 represented CD18 as of 2011, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I want you to look at the last page. It

5 shows where Baylor College of Medicine is located in

6 C235. In this map Baylor College of Medicine is

7 contained in CD9; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And CD9 is represented by Congressman Al

10 Green, right?

11 A. Yes.

158:7-159:12

7 Q. So I'll show you what I'll mark as Exhibit

8 Number 18.


10 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) And I'll ask you to take a

11 look at that. So the first page shows Memorial H ermann,

12 Texas Medical Center. The second page shows wher e it

13 was in Plan C100, and what district does it appe ar to be

14 in on C100?



64

15 A. 7.

16 Q. And 7 is whose district?

17 A. Culberson, John Culberson.

18 Q. All right. And the third page shows Memorial

19 Hermann's location under C185 to be CD18, under C185,

20 right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. CD18 was represented by Sheila Jackson Lee in

23 2011, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The last page shows that Memorial Hermann's

Page 159

1 location under C235, that Memorial Hermann is con tained

2 in CD9; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And, again, CD9 is currently represented by

5 Congressman Al Green, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And he represented CD9 in 2012 and '13, also,

8 right?

9 A. Yes, correct.

10 Q. All right. One more: Hobby Airport. You

11 would agree that an airport is an economic engin e?

12 A. Absolutely.

159:24-160:14

24 Q (BY MR. SWEETEN) All right. Now, the second

25 page of this document reflects that Hobby's loca tion



65

1 under C100, the benchmark, is located in CD22 und er this

2 map, which is represented by Congressman Pete Ols on,

3 right?

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Okay. Do you know if Congressman Olson is an

6 Anglo Republican?

7 A. He's white.

8 Q. And would you agree that the third page shows

9 that Hobby's location under C185 has moved to CD2 9 in

10 this map?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. And in 2011, CD29 was represented

13 by Congressman Gene Green, right?

14 A. Yes.

160:18-161:1

18 Q. Okay. He represents a Hispanic Opportunity

19 District, correct?

20 A. He does.

21 Q. Okay. Would you agree that Hobby Airport

22 remains in CD29 in this last map, C235?

23 A. It does.

24 Q. And so Gene Green continues to represent CD29

25 today; is that right?

Page 161

1 A. Yes, he does.

165:9-16

9 Q. You talked at some length today that you were



66

10 upset that Democratic districts were not -- not enough

11 Democratic districts were created, correct?

12 A. I talked about being disappointed that the

13 opportunity districts were not created, not the fact

14 that enough districts was not created. There was an

15 opportunity for Democratic districts to have bee n

16 created, and they were not.

165:23-166:9

23 Q. I understand. And you're a life-long

24 Democrat?

25 A. Yes.

Page 166

1 Q. You've always been a member of the Democratic

2 party?

3 A. I've always voted Democratic.

4 Q. You support your party?

5 A. I was born with Democratic blood flowing

6 through my body.

7 Q. And you continue to advocate Democratic

8 interests, correct?

9 A. I do.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations RICHARD J. TRABULSI, JR.

1

State Defendants’


Richard J. Trabulsi


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations RICHARD J. TRABULSI, JR.

2

4:19-21 19 Q. Please state your name for the record, 20 sir. 21 A. Richard J. Trabulsi, Jr. 9:2-5 2 Q. And what is your current occupation? 3 A. I am president of Texans for Lawsuit 4 Reform, and I am chairman of Texans for Lawsuit 5 Reform Political Action Committee. 15:22-16:6 22 But was Texans for Lawsuit Reform 23 involved in redistricting in 2011? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you tell me how you were involved? Page 16 1 A. We were interested in seeing a 2 redistricting map emerge that would withstand legal 3 scrutiny, and would reflect what we considered to be 4 the prevailing conservative pro-tort reform 5 philosophy of the majority of Texans, the vast 6 majority of Texans. 32:10-20 10 Q. Did Speaker Straus reach out to you at any 11 time about redistricting? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you reach out to him? 14 A. After the - what was known as the 15 Solomons map, named after Burt Solomons, the 16 Chairman of redistricting, came out, the attacks 17 began on that map as we anticipated. And I believe 18 that I had conversation with at least House 19 leadership or speaker staff, saying that we were 20 ready to publicly defend the Solomons map.


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations CHRIS TURNER

State Defendants’


Rep. Chris Turner

1



7:5-13

5 Q. Would you please state your full name for the

6 record.

7 A. Christopher Gregory Turner.

8 Q. And, Mr. Turner, you are -- you're a member of

9 the House of Representatives, correct, from

10 District 101?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Okay. What is your current residence address?

13 A. [REDACTED], Texas, [REDACTED].

12:19-13:15

19 Q. Okay. You're designated to testify as a -- as

20 a witness in this trial, but you're not designated as an

21 expert. So I want to ask you today do you have any

22 specific expertise in voter -- in voting rights

23 litigation?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And so -- and I tripped on your answer. So

Page 13

1 you do not have experience in voting rights litigation;

2 correct?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Okay. It's not something that other -- did

5 you begin to sort of look at issues related to the

2



6 Voting Rights Act or redistricting in September of 2011,

7 or was there a time preceding that where you sort of

8 studied voting rights -- the Voting Rights Act or

9 litigation about it?

10 A. I don't consider myself to have ever studied

11 the Voting Rights Act or -- or have any expertise in it.

12 As a State Representative, I think voting

13 rights is an issue that I need to concern myself with.

14 So as a -- as a Representative, I've always been

15 interested in voting rights in general.

23:10-14

10 Q. Okay. So is that right, that in November of

11 2008, you first won as a State Representative?


13 Q. And that was in District 96. Correct?


24:2-15

2 Q. Okay. So you won in 2008. You served in '09

3 and '10 and ran for election again in District 96.

4 Correct?


6 Q. Again against Bill Zedler?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Again a close race?

3



9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And this time you did not win?

11 A. That's right. I lost in 2010.

12 Q. Okay. So you were not in -- you were not

13 serving as a legislator in 2011 during the 82nd session.

14 Correct?


25:6-21

6 Q. Did you have occasion to in 2011 watch the

7 redistricting committee proceedings?

8 A. No, I didn't.

9 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that you were not

10 engaged in the 2011 legislative process?

11 A. Absolutely. I was --

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. -- not engaged.

14 Q. You weren't -- you weren't here in Austin?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. You weren't a participant in the redistricting

17 committee or as a legislator. Correct?


19 Q. Did you participate do you know in any of the

20 field hearings that were held in 2011?

21 A. No, I did not.

4



26:7-11

7 Q. (Mr. Sweeten continuing) And is that --

8 Mr. Hebert is your counsel and he just made a

9 representation that you do not intend to testify about

10 2011. Is that your understanding as well?

11 A. Yes.

28:16-19

16 Q. Okay. So you have no personal knowledge of

17 the redistricting process in 2011 as to how the -- how

18 the specific lines on those maps were drawn?

19 A. No -- no firsthand knowledge, no.

29:17-20

17 Q. You're not here to testify and you can't

18 testify about the 2011 process that was instituted.

19 Correct?

20 A. Correct.

33:3-34:1

3 Q. And the -- and your wife is a political

4 consultant. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. She works for Turner Group. Is that right?

7 A. That's her company, yes.

8 Q. Okay. And just so we're clear, Turner Group,

9 as I understand it, works with Democratic campaigns?

5



10 A. It has, yes.

11 Q. And it -- does Turner Group currently work

12 with the Wendy Davis campaign?

13 A. You know, to my knowledge, Turner Group is not

14 employed or retained by the Wendy Davis campaign. You

15 know, certainly I think my wife supports Senator Davis

16 and --

17 Q. As do you?

18 A. Of course.

19 Q. Okay. And, in fact, the two of you have

20 campaigned together in the past?

21 A. Who? My wife and I?

22 Q. I'm sorry. You and representative -- you and

23 Senator Davis.

24 A. Yes. Our districts -- certainly our -- my

25 previous district largely overlapped with Senator Davis'

Page 34

1 and -- and we're both from the same county so...

34:19-23

19 Q. And the two of you -- I mean she's a big

20 supporter of yours and you're a big supporter of hers.

21 Correct? I'm sorry. You're a big supporter of hers and

22 she's a big supporter of yours. Correct?

23 A. I think that's fair.

6



38:12-22

12 Q. Mr. Veasey is a plaintiff -- he's one of the

13 Quesada plaintiffs in this case. Are you aware of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the two of you are -- are friends. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. And you support -- you've supported his

19 runs and he's supported yours. Correct.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. No secret about that?

22 A. Yes.

40:11-41:5

11 Q. I'll hand you Deposition Exhibit No. 2,

12 Representative Turner.

13 A. Thank you.

14 Q. You're welcome. Can you tell me what that

15 document is?

16 A. This would appear to be a page from my

17 campaign Web site.

18 Q. Okay. You indicate that "Due to dramatic

19 population growth, Tarrant County has gained another

20 seat in the Texas House." Did I read that first

21 sentence correctly?

7



22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And with respect to that, this -- this new

24 district was -- you've called it a -- you say,

25 "District 101 is also a solidly Democratic district."

Page 41

1 Do you see that on the next page?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So this district created in the 2011 session

4 was a -- was a solidly Democratic district in your view.

5 Correct?

46:2-10

2 Q. Now, let me ask you another question a little

3 bit farther and a little more in depth. Are you aware

4 of what Section 2 requires with respect to the formation

5 of a Latino opportunity district or an African-American

6 opportunity district?

7 MR. HEBERT: And I'll object to the

8 extent it calls for a legal conclusion.

9 A. I -- I don't know Section 2 of the Voting

10 Rights Act well enough to really answer that. No.

51:15-52:7

15 Q. Did you feel like Texas Legislative Council

16 was a good resource that was at your disposal during the

17 2013 session?

8



18 A. My -- Are you speaking specifically on

19 redistricting or just in general?

20 Q. Redistricting, yes, sir.

21 A. Okay. To the extent that I needed information

22 from Legislative Council that was data, reports, copies

23 of maps printed out, they were responsive. I never --

24 as I was not a member of the committee on redistricting

25 and I was not a -- obviously in the House leadership to

Page 52

1 where I was in any way part of the process that was

2 underway to draw the maps or to essentially ratify the

3 interim maps, I did not have occasion to deal with

4 people at leg. council in terms of, you know, legal

5 advice on -- on different maps. It was simply a matter

6 of requesting data, requesting copies of maps that --

7 fairly mundane tasks.

53:4-54:6

4 Q. Fair enough. And so let me just -- I'm asking

5 more as a resource matter. Was Texas Legislative

6 Council a resource in case you needed a legal question

7 regarding redistricting answered?

8 A. Yes. I've used Texas Legislative Council as a

9 resource. I -- I would not view Legislative Council as

10 infallible or the final say on redistricting or a lot of

9



11 other things for that matter. There have been a number

12 of times where I needed legislation drafted, amendments

13 drafted on legislation totally unrelated to

14 redistricting where, you know, I had disagreements with

15 them on how they drafted it. So with that said, I, you

16 know, appreciate the hard work that they do and think

17 they -- you know, they're obviously a valuable asset to

18 the Legislature in general.

19 Q. You also had access to -- Did you talk with

20 Mr. Hebert during the 2013 session? I think you've

21 indicated that you had.

22 A. Yeah. I believe we did, yes.

23 Q. Did you ask -- without asking about any

24 specifics of what you communicated about, did you have

25 the benefit of his counsel during the redistricting

Page 54

1 session?

2 A. Yeah. I think if I -- if I needed something

3 specific, I knew that I could call Mr. Hebert.

4 Q. Did you utilize any other legal resources

5 during the course of your -- of the redistricting

6 session?

86:13-21

13 Q. Okay. So the bills -- the redistricting bills

10



14 were originally filed in March of 2013 during the

15 regular session. Right?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. The -- and it was -- it was plain, wasn't it,

18 with the filing that the -- that the bill that was filed

19 sought to adopt the San Antonio interim maps? It was

20 clear from the -- from the bill; right?

21 A. Yes.

88:2-24

2 Q. So as expressed in this letter, is it a true

3 statement that the House Democratic Caucus was not

4 opposed to taking up the issue of redistricting as a

5 general matter?

6 A. That's -- that's correct. Our -- our point of

7 contention, as conveyed in this letter, was the idea

8 that the Legislature would simply rubber stamp the

9 interim maps that were always intended to be temporary.

10 Q. Okay. And so with that statement, it was the

11 position of the House Democratic Caucus that by itself

12 it was an appropriate issue for the House to take up the

13 issue of redistricting. Correct?

14 A. Yeah. I think that members of the Legislature

15 know redistricting is a legislative duty, and there were

16 obviously problems with what the Legislature had passed

11



17 in 2011, and therefore redistricting was yet to be

18 resolved. I think there was also an awareness that

19 there was still litigation pending before courts and,

20 you know, so there were certainly different -- different

21 paths that could be taken. The legislature could choose

22 to do a number of different things. Our position was no

23 matter what, the Legislature should not simply rubber

24 stamp the -- the Congressional and House maps –

90:16-91:7

16 Q. All right. And I need to be -- I want to be

17 clear, though, with my question. So -- so it's not --

18 whereas you may have observed that efforts other than --

19 actually, strike that.

20 So what I hear you saying is you don't

21 have an issue with the Legislature taking it up and you

22 didn't in 2013 except for to the extent that you believe

23 that they were intent upon adopting the interim maps.

24 Correct?


Page 91

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. In principle, yes, the Legislature is entitled

3 to take up redistricting, particularly when we don't

4 have permanent maps in place for the rest of the decade.

12



5 Q. Okay. And -- and going into that 2013

6 session, there were not permanent maps in place?


98:18-100:2

18 Q. Now, you would agree with me that

19 redistricting is a divisive process for the Legislature.

20 Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. You would agree that -- that few people

23 walk away from the redistricting table happy about the

24 results?

25 A. That's probably correct. I've not been

Page 99

1 personally involved in a lot of redistrictings, but that

2 seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw.

3 Q. And you -- you also agree that in -- that the

4 San Antonio Court had heard approximately two weeks of

5 testimony regarding challenges to the -- to the Senate,

6 Congressional and the House plans based by the Texas

7 Legislature in 2011. Right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in addition to that, there had been --

10 Section 5 existed at the point, which required either

11 Justice Department or Federal Court review of those

13



12 redistricting maps. Right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So it had -- there had been a Section 2

15 challenge that had been litigated over two weeks in

16 San Antonio with evidence provided by multiple

17 attorneys, including your own, and then there had been

18 an additional two-week proceeding, approximately, in

19 Washington, D.C. under Section 5 where again testimony

20 was provided by -- by witnesses and experts related to

21 the Texas redistricting case. Correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. The parties had not been -- had -- had been

24 allowed to put on testimony from -- from lay witnesses

25 and from expert witnesses in the Section 2 and Section 5

Page 100

1 proceedings. Correct?

2 A. That's my understanding.

100:10-101:12

10 Q. Okay. You also understood that in this case,

11 the -- the Section 2 case in San Antonio had actually

12 been appealed to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court

13 had actually weighed in on those maps?

14 MR. HEBERT: I object to the form of the

15 question.

14



16 Q. I'll ask it another way. You -- you agree

17 that the Section 2 proceeding had been appealed to the

18 Supreme Court. Correct?

19 A. My understanding of that is that the -- the

20 initial interim maps ordered by the San Antonio Court

21 that the Attorney General appealed to the Supreme Court

22 and the Court ordered -- the Supreme Court ordered the

23 San Antonio Court to draw a different set of interim

24 maps. That is my understanding.

25 Q. And the Supreme Court had actually provided

Page 101

1 some guidance with respect to how the interim map should

2 be drawn in this case. Right?

3 A. My recollection of that is that the -- the

4 Supreme Court said that for interim maps, which I gather

5 means, you know, maps that are drawn sort of in the

6 absence of final legal determinations, need to conform

7 as closely as possible to legislative intent. That is

8 my understanding.

9 Q. And do you understand that to be guidance from

10 the Supreme Court to the San Antonio Court regarding how

11 to draw the interim map?

12 A. Yes.

15



103:1-9

1 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute that the

2 San Antonio Court reviewed allegations in the Section 5

3 case whenever they -- they adopted the interim maps?

4 A. I don't know that for a fact, but I -- if

5 you're stipulating that they did, I don't have reason to

6 doubt that.

7 Q. Okay. You don't have one reason -- you don't

8 have a reason to doubt that?

9 A. Right.

104:9-105:23

9 Q. Do you know the type of analysis that the

10 San Antonio Court conducted on the House and

11 Congressional plans?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know if they looked -- if they -- if

14 they reviewed the maps for any Section 2 constitutional

15 claims or Section 5 claims that were not insubstantial?

16 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?

17 Q. Yes. Do you know -- and I think you said you

18 don't know specifically what the San Antonio Court

19 was -- what standards they were applying to the

20 redistricting maps. Correct?

21 A. I don't know the details of the proceedings in

16



22 San Antonio. I wasn't there and --

23 Q. Okay. Well, let me mark this.

24 (Exhibit No. 11 marked)

25 Q. One of the things I want you to look at –

Page 105

1 first let me just explain. This is the opinion of the

2 Court, dated 03/19/12 --

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. -- on the top. And -- and so I want you to

5 look at, if you would, the last sentence on Page 2, and

6 it says, "Specifically, the Supreme Court has directed

7 this Court to use the State's enacted map and voter

8 tabulation district cuts except in areas in which the

9 plaintiffs have either shown that there is a likelihood

10 of success on the merits on their Section 2 and

11 constitutional claims or that their Section 5 claims are

12 not insubstantial. Accordingly, we analyze the various

13 claims and defenses to the enacted plan under Section 2

14 and 5 of the VRA and the Constitution."


16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So you understood -- and -- and you quote in

18 the letter some provisions of the Court's order. You

19 understood that this is what the Court had done prior to

17



20 the bill being filed to adopt those interim maps.

21 Correct? You knew this is the process the San Antonio

22 Court had undertaken?

23 A. Yes.

109:13-21

13 Q. Okay. Did you seek out, during either the

14 regular session or the special session, any sort of

15 information from the Attorney General regarding the

16 redistricting process or the litigation position, you

17 yourself?

18 A. I don't recall seeking any information from

19 the Attorney General on redistricting apart from, you

20 know, communications contained in these letters. But,

21 no, I don't remember.

110:5-112:5


6 Q. Okay. So what I've got here and what I've

7 handed you is Exhibit No. 12. It's the transcription of

8 the audio recording of the public hearing, Select

9 Committee on Redistricting. Did I read that correctly?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the date on this is May 31st, 2013.

12 Right?

13 A. Yes.

18



14 Q. Now, here you get a mention from

15 representative -- I'm sorry, Chairman Darby, who

16 indicates that, "Of course, Chris Turner. Even though

17 he's got Jim Keffer's name tag turned around in front of

18 him. Welcome, Chris, to the dice."

19 So you were not on redistricting

20 committee at the time. Correct?

21 A. That's correct. And even though the

22 transcript says "Welcome to the dice," I think he said

23 "dais."

24 Q. Fair enough. So you were not excluded from

25 the process and instead you were allowed to participate

Page 111

1 from the dais. Correct?

2 A. Yes. I think that in the Texas House there is

3 a tradition that any member typically is welcome to sit

4 in on any committee hearing. You know, for instance,

5 on -- I sit on the insurance committee, and we might

6 have members who represent the Texas Gulf Coast want to

7 come in and sit in on an insurance committee hearing

8 having to do with windstorm insurance even though

9 they're not members of the committee, and that's

10 typically a courtesy that the chairman will extend to

11 any member on an issue they're interested in.

19



12 Q. And you were interested in redistricting?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And asked Chairman Darby if you could that?

15 A. I did. In fact, I sent Chairman Darby a

16 letter prior to this hearing with, I believe, several

17 questions, and that was one of them, and he had written

18 back and indicated that would be fine.

19 Q. Chairman Darby was responsive to your request?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Chairman Darby allowed you to sit at the dais

22 and he actually allowed you to question witnesses?

23 A. I believe he did, yes.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. I don't -- I don't recall what questions or –

Page 112

1 I specifically asked of witnesses. I believe I maybe

2 had a constituent or two who testified that I might have

3 spoken to. But yeah, as I recall, Chairman Darby

4 allowed nonmembers of the committee but members of the

5 House to -- to ask some questions.

112:13-113:2

13 Q. Okay. Now, one of the things that -- one of

14 the questions going in to the -- and by the way, let's

15 set a background.

20



16 So it's a true statement that the 2013

17 Legislature did not, in regular session, take up the

18 issue of redistricting other than to have a committee

19 hearing. Correct?

20 A. During the regular session?

21 Q. During the regular session.

22 A. I'm not even aware of a committee hearing.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. Perhaps there was one. I'm not disputing.

25 Q. I think the State Senate Affairs may have had

Page 113

1 a -- an initial meeting.

2 A. That -- that sounds familiar –

113:8-21

8 Q. Okay. So one of the issues -- and so the

9 Governor calls the special session at some point in late

10 May. Is that right?

11 A. It was the day of sine die. We had been

12 adjourned for less than an hour or two and he called the

13 special session, yes.

14 Q. Okay. In the special session, the only issue

15 in the special session from that time until the

16 redistricting bills were passed was redistricting?

17 A. Initially, redistricting was the only item on

21



18 the call. I -- It's my recollection that the Governor

19 added additional items prior to --

20 Q. The conclusion of redistricting?

21 A. Yes.

114:3-117:9


4 Q. All right. So I'm going to hand you what

5 we'll mark as Deposition Exhibit No. 13. Now, it's a

6 true statement, isn't it, that the call of this special

7 session caused you some concern?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I think you objected and you felt like the

10 call was too restricted. Right?

11 A. I -- I had criticisms of -- well, I had

12 concerns that the Legislature would take up

13 redistricting with the stated purpose of adopting

14 interim plans, yes, which was essentially what was in

15 the Governor's call.

16 Q. Okay. And you had a discussion with

17 Speaker Straus regarding that issue?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And I've handed you what's been marked

20 as Deposition Exhibit No. 13, and this is a media report

21 from the "Dallas Morning News."

22



22 In the first sentence it says "Speaker

23 Joe Straus, in an exchange with Representative Chris

24 Turner, D-Arlington, said that members were welcome to

25 offer changes to the existing interim maps under

Page 115

1 consideration in redistricting."


3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So initially, with respect to the House

5 Speaker, he advised you as of May 28th, 2013, that

6 members would be welcome to offer changes and that you

7 were not restricted to just the passage of the interim

8 plans. Is that correct?

9 A. He did say that, yes.

10 Q. Okay. And then I want you to turn back, if

11 you would, to the May 31st transcript, which I believe

12 to be deposition exhibit number -- is that "12"?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So I want you to look back to that, and

15 if you look on the second page where Chairman Darby

16 continues his discussion, he says, "I believe that the

17 court-ordered interim maps are legally sufficient. They

18 are the maps we were all elected under and the maps that

19 our constituents are familiar with, but am not willing

23



20 to rubber stamp any proposal that has not been evaluated

21 by this committee and appropriate alternatives

22 considered. I believe it is incumbent on this committee

23 to make necessary corrections to the court-ordered maps

24 if legally required changes are necessary to comply with

25 the Voting Rights Act or the United States

Page 116

1 Constitution."


3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you were at the -- you were at that

5 hearing on May 31st, 2013, when Speaker Darby said that.

6 Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And so you have the Speaker -- as

9 of May 31st, you had already had the Speaker tell you

10 that you were not restricted to the call. On May 31st,

11 Chairman Darby says you're not restricted to the call.

12 And it's a true statement too isn't it -- I mean first

13 that's correct, isn't it?

14 A. What is?

15 Q. What I just said, that those -- that you

16 had -- I'm just summarizing, which is as of -- or on

17 May 28th, Speaker Straus had indicated that you were not

24



18 restricted to the passage of the interim maps, that

19 Chairman Darby, the Chair of the redistricting

20 committee, had said on May 31st that you were not

21 restricted to the maps?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And -- and so thereafter there were multiple

24 hearings held by the House redistricting committee.

25 Correct?

Page 117

1 A. Yes, there were.

2 Q. Okay. And at least with respect to House

3 leadership, you understood that the position of House

4 leadership was that changes -- if changes were legally

5 required under the Constitution and the Voting Rights

6 Act that those changes could be made? That's what they

7 said; right?

8 A. Yes. That's what -- that's what Chairman

9 Darby says in this -- in this hearing –

118:3-24

3 Q. Fast-forwarding, let's go through what --

4 what -- let's go to June 26th, when the bills were

5 signed by the Governor. At that time, there had been

6 amendments offered by multiple Democratic

7 Representatives; correct?

25



8 A. Yes.

9 Q. There had been amendments -- and there had

10 also been amendments accepted to the House plan?

11 A. There were a few minor amendments accepted to

12 the House plan, yes.

13 Q. There were six amendments accepted. Are you

14 aware of that?

15 A. I'll take your word it.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I know there were more than one.

18 Q. And you believe all six of them to be minor?

19 A. I would characterize them as fairly minor,

20 yes.

21 Q. Okay. Nevertheless, the House -- in Plan

22 H358, which it -- which it adopted, it reflected changes

23 from the court-ordered interim map?

24 A. Yes, it did.

121:12-122:7

12 Q. Okay. So moving on to another portion of the

13 May 31st hearing, do you recall that there was a

14 Ms. Perales of the -- of the Texas Latino task force

15 that testified at that hearing? Do you recall that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now I want to ask you if you'd turn to the

26



18 bottom of the Page 106.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. There she says, "I came to tell you about the

21 interim maps and to express our view that they are an

22 extraordinary improvement upon what the Texas

23 Legislature enacted in 2011, which we do" -- "we do

24 believe was deeply discriminatory against Latino

25 voters."

Page 122


2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you agree that it was an extraordinary

4 improvement?

5 A. No, I don't believe it's an extraordinary

6 improvement. I believe it is an improvement, but

7 extraordinary is not an adjective I would have used.

122:11-128:7

11 Q. At any rate, there was a fair amount of give

12 and take during the May 31st hearing. There were

13 witnesses that were called. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Redistricting issues were -- were discussed at

16 some length?

17 A. Yes.

27



18 Q. You participated in the proceedings?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Democratic members and Republican members

21 participated in the questioning of witnesses?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And there were fairly robust points

24 made by both witnesses and by representatives in that

25 hearing. Correct?

Page 123

1 A. Yes, I believe that's right.


3 Q. So I want to hand you what we've marked as

4 Deposition Exhibit No. 14. Now, this is a -- this is a

5 true and accurate depiction of the members of the Texas

6 House of Representatives redistricting select committee.

7 Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, do you have any reason to dispute that of

10 the 19 individuals on this list that 11 of them are

11 attorneys?

12 A. No, I have no reason to dispute that.

13 Q. Okay. I mean do you know personally that

14 Mr. Martinez Fischer official is, Drew Darby is,

15 Mr. Deshotel and Mr. Hunter? Right? You know all of

28



16 those four; correct?

17 A. Yes, I do. Mr. Oliveira, I believe -- I

18 think.

19 Q. Okay. And do you know if field hearings were

20 requested by anyone during the session?

21 A. During the regular session?

22 Q. During the special session.

23 A. Yes. I believe I requested them. I raised

24 the issue on the House floor on the first day of the

25 special session. I -- I asked Chairman Darby if there

Page 124

1 would be field hearings. I don't know that I requested

2 them at that time, but I did ask if there would be any,

3 and my recollection is he said that there were no plans

4 to hold any. And then in a follow-up letter that day or

5 the next day that I sent to him, I asked about if

6 members who were not on the committee could sit in on

7 the committee hearing, as we talked about previously,

8 and I also reiterated my opinion that field hearings

9 would be valuable to the process to allow maximum -- or

10 at least allow greater public input.

11 Q. Okay. So --

12 A. I don't recall if it was formed in -- I don't

13 know if I said that I request that you do this, but I

29



14 certainly made the argument --

15 Q. Fair enough.

16 A. -- in favor of it.

17 Q. So you wrote Chairman Darby with your

18 concerns, and there were a couple of concerns that you

19 specifically addressed; one, there should be field

20 hearings --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- that are afforded?

23 The other was can you sit at the -- can

24 you participate in the proceedings. Right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 125

1 Q. He -- he -- as to both of those, following

2 your request, both of those things happened; you were

3 able to participate in the proceedings and field

4 hearings were held?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you feel like with respect to the concerns

7 that you expressed that Chairman Darby was responsive to

8 those requests, sir?

9 A. He was certainly responsive to my request to

10 sit in on the -- on the hearing and other members who

11 were not members of the committee. As I've indicated,

30



12 it's a tradition in the House, and Mr. Darby is a

13 gentleman and I'm not surprised that he maintained that

14 tradition.

15 With respect to the field hearings, I

16 don't know for certain that it was my request that had

17 anything to do with those field hearings being

18 ultimately scheduled.

19 Q. Okay. So --

20 A. I don't know if there's any correlation there

21 at all.

22 Q. But your request for field hearings -- his --

23 his -- the use of field hearings was adopted after you

24 wrote him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 126


2 Q. And so I want to show you what's been marked

3 as Exhibit No. 15.

4 A. Okay.

5 Q. And this is these are notices of public

6 hearings --

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. -- and let's look through them.

9 The first one is for the redistricting

31



10 select committee on Friday, May 31st, 2013. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that was held in Austin and you attended

13 that. Right?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Then the next one was Saturday, June 1st, and

16 again it looks like in Austin, and you attended that one

17 too?

18 A. Yes. My recollection is that that's the one I

19 probably sat in the audience for part of the time. I

20 don't believe I was on the dais that day.

21 Q. Okay. Then there was a select committee

22 hearing on the next page on June 6th, 2013, at the DART

23 headquarters in Dallas, and you attended that one too.

24 Correct?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 127

1 Q. Then there was -- if you go two pages over,

2 it's -- there was a redistricting select committee

3 hearing in San Antonio on June 10th, 2013. Is that what

4 that says?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you -- did you attend that one?

7 A. No, I did not.

32



8 Q. And then if you'll look at the next document,

9 it indicates that there was a redistricting select

10 committee hearing in Houston on Wednesday, June 12th,

11 2013. That's what it says; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you attend that hearing?


15 Q. Okay. Then there's a redistricting select

16 committee back in Austin on June 17th, 2013. Did you

17 attend that hearing?

18 A. Not that I recall.

19 Q. Okay. Then the next looks like Senate notices

20 of hearings, and I'm not going to go through each one,

21 but let me just ask you did you attend any of the Senate

22 hearings?


24 Q. Do you have any reason to believe -- and --

25 and these indicate that there were field hearings also

Page 128

1 held by the Senate. Is that your understanding?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. There was one held in Corpus Christi,

4 for example, one in Houston?

5 A. Yes.

33



6 Q. And you didn't attend any of those?

7 A. No, I did not.

140:6-141:22

6 Q. Were you present -- do you know if Chairman

7 Darby obtained legal counsel?

8 A. I believe he did.

9 Q. Okay. And do you know who his legal counsel

10 was?

11 A. I -- I knew at one time. I've forgotten the

12 name.

13 Q. Do you know if he offered to make his -- the

14 legal counsel available to the remainder of the

15 committee?

16 A. He may have. I'm not -- I'm not positive.

17 Q. Do you know if other members of the committee,

18 Mr. Martinez Fischer being one of them, objected to

19 using committee -- to using the attorneys that mister --

20 that Chairman Darby had retained?

21 A. I do remember in the Dallas field hearing in

22 which I was present there was a discussion and I believe

23 an objection over the redistricting committee's counsel

24 and that the counsel, I believe, was asked to leave the

25 proceedings.

34



Page 141

1 Q. And you were there when they left -- were

2 asked to leave. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And who raised the objection to them being

5 there?

6 A. I believe it was Mr. Martinez Fischer.

7 Q. Okay. And they left after he raised the

8 objection. Correct?

9 A. That is my recollection.

10 Q. And do you recall specifically if Chairman

11 Darby at that committee hearing offered to allow

12 Mr. Martinez Fischer and the remainder of the committee

13 to utilize that resource?

14 A. Being that attorney?

15 Q. The attorneys, Mr. Quinn and Mr. Morrison.

16 A. Mr. Morrison was his name. He may well have,

17 but I don't -- I don't specifically recall. And I think

18 as a member -- as a legislator who was not a member of

19 the committee, I also knew that the discussion didn't

20 really apply directly to me because I'm not a member of

21 the committee. So I don't recall the specifics of that

22 conversation.

35



144:10-21

10 Q. Okay. Now, first of all, I think you've

11 indicated that Chairman Darby is a gentleman. Correct?

12 A. A what?

13 Q. A gentleman.

14 A. Yes, he is.

15 Q. You have a good working relationship with

16 Chairman Darby. Correct?

17 A. We have a good professional relationship as

18 colleagues, yes.

19 Q. Okay. You don't have any reason to doubt his

20 truthfulness, Chairman Darby?

21 A. No.

154:7-23

7 Q. Okay. There were six amendments that were

8 adopted. Are you aware of that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Are you familiar -- Are you aware that

11 one that was offered and accepted was by Representative

12 Rafael Anchia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it related to population deviations in

15 Dallas. Are you aware of that?

16 A. Yes.

36



17 Q. Are you aware that one of the amendments that

18 was adopted was by Representative -- was -- was put

19 forward by -- was offered by Representative Vo?

20 A. Yes, I recall that.

21 Q. And do you recall that one of the amendments

22 was offered by Representative Richard Raymond? Correct?

23 A. I do recall that, yes, sir.

158:2-159:2

2 Q. -- do you believe partisanship played a role

3 in the 2013 redistricting committee's actions?

4 A. I would assume it did because I think

5 partisanship always plays a role in anything related to

6 redistricting. So I'm sure it did, yes.

7 Q. Okay. Now, one of the things in redistricting

8 is that -- is members typically are protective of their

9 own districts when they come to the redistricting

10 process. Is that sort of your experience and

11 understanding?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Would you agree with me that the -- that the

14 interim plans adopted by the Court that were adopted in

15 a -- in a changed form under H358 by the Texas

16 Legislature that those paired no one?

17 A. The -- the interim?

37



18 Q. The adopted H358 did not pair any House

19 members?

20 A. The plan we adopted in 2013?

21 Q. Yes, sir.

22 A. That's correct. They did not pair any

23 members.

24 Q. Okay. And it had been -- an election had

25 already been run in November of 2012 on that plan.

Page 159

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes.

160:15-23

15 Q. The -- I'm going to go ahead and direct your

16 attention to another portion of the debate.

17 A. Okay.

18 Q. All right. So here let's go to the bottom of

19 Page S66.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. Okay. So here you're laying out an amendment

22 on behalf of Representative Anchia. Correct?

23 A. Correct.

164:10-165:6

10 (Exhibit Nos. 17 and 18 marked)

11 Q. So I've handed you what's been marked as

38



12 Exhibit No. 18, and can you tell me what that is?

13 A. Yes. You're asking me to tell you what --

14 Q. Yes, sir.

15 A. Okay. Yes. This is the proposed substitute

16 map that Representative Anchia had filed I believe first

17 as a bill and then we offered as an amendment to the

18 Congressional map bill, and Representative Anchia was

19 unable to be in the House that day and he had asked me

20 to lay out this map for him --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- which I did.

23 Q. So one thing I want you to look at is the top

24 right corner, which is the Dallas blowup of CD -- of the

25 Congressional district alignment up there. Do you see

Page 165

1 that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, it's true, isn't it, that CD 3, as

4 proposed by Representative Anchia, extends from Dallas

5 County to Tarrant County. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

166:5-167:4

5 Q. Can you show me on the -- on the map where is

6 Lake Como community? If you can circle it, maybe that

39



7 would help.

8 A. Sure.

9 Q. Just for the record, we're having

10 Representative Turner circle the Como community on C238.

11 Can I take a look? Okay.

12 So as I understand it, the -- so the

13 extension that looks -- I don't know how to describe it.

14 It looks like a tongue coming out of a mouth. Do you

15 see what I'm talking about?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That's -- that's the Como community. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Como is a largely African-American

20 community. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, the draw of CD 3 was -- the reason that

23 it has that extension is in order to keep this largely

24 African-American community within CD 3. Right?

25 MR. HEBERT: Object to the form of the

Page 167

1 question.

2 A. I don't know what the specific reason for

3 including Como in CD 3 was. I mean I haven't had a

4 discussion with anyone about that.

40



167:25-173:23

25 Q. Let me ask you this, though: Now, you

Page 168

1 understand that one of the amendments that was adopted

2 was Representative Burnam's amendment, and this is to

3 the House plan. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And you understand that -- that the

6 amendment that was adopted put Como back into

7 Representative Burnam's district. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you -- Were you in support of that

10 amendment?

11 A. I was.

12 Q. Why?

13 A. Well, one, as a principle of legislative

14 courtesy and nothing more, it is an amendment that

15 Representative Burnam had worked out I believe with

16 Representative Geren and perhaps Representative Goldman.

17 I'm not sure if Mr. Goldman's district was affected.

18 And -- and generally when members agree to something,

19 you know, you try to, as a courtesy, support that.

20 Having some knowledge of the Como

21 community and Tarrant County, having spent, you know, a

41



22 little bit of time in Como over the years when I worked

23 for Senator Moncrief years ago, I know that it's a

24 community with a lot of needs, and I know that certainly

25 Representative Burnam had a commitment to serving --

Page 169

1 serving that community. I thought it made sense that

2 they be united in a district with similar socioeconomic

3 neighborhoods that are in district -- House District 90.

4 So for that sense, it made sense to me that that

5 community be restored to House District 90.

6 Q. And so you were in support of that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And with respect to that, do you believe

9 that -- that Representative Burnam had some sort of

10 racially discriminatory intent in trying to get Como --

11 represent Como again?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. Back to CD -- the proposed Plan C238.

14 Would you agree with me that -- that CD 3 is not a

15 compact district?

16 MR. HEBERT: Object to the form of the

17 question.

18 A. Yeah. "Compact" is a term that gets used a

19 lot in redistricting, and I've never -- if there is an

42



20 agreed-upon definition of what "compact" means in -- in

21 the redistricting process, it's never been explained to

22 me.

23 So to me it's a district that spans two

24 counties, which in the case of Dallas and Tarrant County

25 is -- is not unusual, and we have a lot of districts in

Page 170

1 the current -- in the existing plan that -- that span

2 both counties and a number of districts in this plan.

3 (Exhibits Nos. 19 and 20 marked)

4 Q. Okay. So I want to show you what I'll mark as

5 Deposition Exhibit No. 20. I'll give you "19" and "20"

6 while I'm on it. These are documents from the Texas

7 Legislative Council.

8 A. Okay.

9 Q. The first one, "19," is the Congressional

10 districts in Plan C238, and the second one is the

11 compactness analysis for Plan C238, which is Exhibit

12 No. 20. Do you see those?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. Okay. Now, the -- if you'll look -- let's

15 start at "20" on compactness since we were just

16 discussing it.

17 A. Okay.

43



18 Q. Now, it will -- it will be helpful to you to

19 look at the bottom. It says, "Compactness measures:

20 Each measure is reported on a scale of 0 to 1, with

21 numbers closer to 1 being more compact.

22 Okay. Did I read that correctly, that

23 little asterisk?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In looking at the 36 Congressional districts

Page 171

1 that are aligned under C238, is it a true statement that

2 District 3 has the lowest compactness score of any

3 Congressional district listed?

4 A. Yes, it would appear so.


6 Q. And would you also agree with me -- and I'll

7 hand you Exhibit No. 21, which is C235. So these are

8 the Congressional districts' compactness scores from the

9 C235 plan. Would you agree with me that the proposed

10 District 3 has the lowest compactness score -- has a

11 lower compactness score than anything in the C235 plan?

12 A. It would appear so, yes.

13 Q. Were you aware of that --

14 A. And I'm looking -- I'm sorry. I'm looking at

15 the "Area Rubber Band" column. Do I need to look at

44



16 both columns to --

17 Q. That's what I wanted you to look at is the

18 "Area Rubber Band" score.

19 A. Okay. Under the "Area Rubber Band" column,

20 yes, it would appear to be lower than --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. -- than these.

23 Q. Do you know how many -- in the Anchia plan, do

24 you know how many districts were affected?

25 A. Not off the top of my head, no --

Page 172

1 Q. Okay.

2 A. -- I don't, but a number of them, because if

3 you change one, it automatically changes everything

4 around it so...

5 Q. Sure. And -- and with respect to the

6 compactness of the other Dallas/Fort Worth area

7 Congressional districts, do you have any idea one way or

8 the other on the effect of the compactness of those

9 districts?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. Okay. So I handed you "19," and "19" -- this

12 is the -- these are the numbers for Congressional

13 Plan C238, and so I want you to just look at District 3

45



14 from the Congressional -- Congressional District 3. Do

15 you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And on it, it says Hispanic CVAP is

18 44.1 percent. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Okay. And as far as percentage black alone,

21 it's 14.7. Right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And with respect to the white alone,

24 37.6 percent. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 173

1 Q. Did you -- is it your contention that CD 3

2 under C238 was a Latino opportunity district based on

3 your review of those numbers?

4 A. Well, I never analyzed it in saying that I

5 think this is a Latino -- well, I think based on these

6 numbers that would have been my conclusion, again a

7 nonlegal-opinion conclusion. With the 44 percent

8 Hispanic CVAP, then my -- my sense is -- is that, yes,

9 that would be a district in which Latino voters would

10 have the ability to elect the candidate of their choice.

11 Q. Okay. Did you -- have you reviewed, at this

46



12 time or prior to introducing this amendment, any sort of

13 racially polarized voting analysis, ecological inference

14 analysis, or any other analysis of the district --

15 proposed district?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Had you -- you did not know, I would assume,

18 when you laid this plan out for Representative Anchia

19 that the compactness score would have been the lowest in

20 the state?

21 A. No, I don't think I knew that for a fact. I

22 probably would not have been surprised to see this

23 analysis because -- you know.

174:15-22

15 Q. But I do want to ask you this: Did you offer

16 any support on the floor of the House that suggested

17 that this was a legally required change?

18 A. I don't believe I ever represented that it was

19 legally required. I don't -- that doesn't sound like

20 something I would say. As you say, being a non-lawyer,

21 I try to refrain from giving legal advice or making

22 legal representations.

175:13-22

13 Q. But as far as whether it was a legally

14 required change, you didn't offer information regarding

47



15 that?

16 A. No, I don't recall that I did.

17 Q. Okay. Also, while we're at it, I want you to

18 look at CD 30 on the Plan C238.

19 A. Okay.

20 Q. The -- if you look at percentage black alone,

21 it's 48 percent. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

176:15-22

15 Q. You felt like -- it -- it didn't concern you

16 that the black population of CD 30 had gone below

17 50 percent?

18 A. No. I think that -- to be clear, I think that

19 an African-American population of 48 percent is still

20 more than adequate to see that African Americans have

21 the ability to elect the candidate of their choice in

22 Congressional 30.

177:14-178:14

14 Q. Okay. Well, were you aware that a claim under

15 the Voting Rights Act has been made against HD 90?

16 A. I had heard that, yes.

17 Q. Did that surprise you?

18 A. Did it surprise me. I think it -- I don't

19 know that I've thought a whole lot about it one way or

48



20 the other. I think that --

21 Q. But it was a change you supported. Right?

22 A. The -- do you mean the Burnam amendment?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. I did. I think it was a -- as I recall, I

25 don't know that it even went to a vote. I think it was

Page 178

1 agreed to by the author and maybe a voice vote on it. I

2 don't know that we had a record vote on it. But yeah, I

3 was supportive of it so --

4 Q. I want to ask you and change subjects --

5 A. I think -- I will say this with regard to

6 HD 90: I think that, you know, regardless of the claim,

7 and -- and, again, I don't know the details of that, I

8 think that HD 90 was before that amendment and is today

9 after that amendment a district where Latino candidates

10 have the opportunity to elect the candidate of their

11 choice.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. I don't believe that's changed one way or the

14 other.

180:4-16

4 Q. Understood. Now, one of the things you say is

5 "In the Corpus Christi area, the interim congressional

49



6 map strands more than 200,000 Latinos in a gerrymandered

7 district rigged to elect an Anglo Republican."

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So I assume you're referring to CD 27?

10 A. I am, yes.

11 Q. Now, is -- are you aware that in the -- that

12 in field hearings held in June of 2010, prior to the

13 2011 Legislature, and -- and in other field hearings

14 that individuals from Nueces County had expressed an

15 interest in Nueces County anchoring a Congressional

16 district?

180:20-181:9

22 Q. And would that be your answer? You don't know

23 one way or the other; correct?

24 A. I don't.

25 Q. So when you're making this -- and obviously

Page 181

1 this is your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion.

2 But when you're making this, you weren't aware if

3 citizens had asked to have Nueces anchor a Congressional

4 district; right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, when you say stranded -- 200,000 stranded

7 Latinos, are you saying that they don't currently have a

50



8 right to vote?

9 A. No.

182:4-183:17

4 Q. Do you know if Senator Chuy Hinojosa supported

5 having Brownsville anchor its own district in Nueces

6 County?

7 A. I don't know what Senator Hinojosa's position

8 is.

9 Q. Do you know if other representatives from

10 South Texas were supportive of a split between Nueces

11 County and Cameron County?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Are you aware that the Corpus Christi -- that

14 there is a -- that Corpus Christi has a port and that

15 Brownsville also has an international port?

16 A. I'm aware of that, yes.

17 Q. Are you aware that there -- that -- that some

18 individuals wished to have those ports represented by

19 different Congressmen?

20 A. No, I'm not aware of that, but I'll take your

21 word for it.

22 Q. Do you think that if those -- well, let's

23 assume you wanted -- and do you know, by the way, if

24 Cameron County currently has a Congressional district

51



25 that is a Latino opportunity district?

Page 183

1 A. I believe it does.

2 Q. You say here, "I hope this committee will hear

3 loud and clear from North Texas that we deserve fair,

4 non-discriminatory districts for the Legislature and

5 Congress." Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so you're asking -- and you're asking your

8 constituency to come out to the hearings there in the

9 Dallas area. Correct?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 Q. Did you send emails to your constituents

12 requesting that they appear at the redistricting

13 committees?

14 A. I believe I did. We send -- I send a lot of

15 emails out of my office letting people know what's going

16 on, and I'm sure we did send at least one email about

17 redistricting.

189:12-190:1

12 Q. You -- and do you also make room for the

13 possibility that someone could look at the proposal that

14 you set forth on the -- on the floor of the House, C238,

15 and suggest that that is a racially gerrymandered

52



16 Congressional district?

17 A. Someone could say that.

18 Q. But -- and do you make room for the

19 possibility that -- that of the 150 Legislators

20 considering it, people may have different reasons to

21 vote for or against a redistricting plan?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Among those, partisan reasons. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Among those, protection of incumbency?

Page 190

1 A. Yes.

206:9-12

9 Q. Well, my -- my question is has any voter ever

10 told you specifically that they don't vote as a result

11 of historical discrimination?

12 A. No.

207:20-208:12

20 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether

21 individuals in your district do not vote as a result of

22 historical discrimination?

23 A. I think that the -- I think elements of the

24 discriminatory impact of these -- of the Congressional

25 map, for instance, contributes to -- at least

53



Page 208

1 contributes to voters not having a choice in some parts

2 of my district in -- in a Congressional election.

3 I -- I haven't done or seen a study on

4 how that impacts voter turnout per se, and so I wouldn't

5 try to offer a guess as to what that impact is or isn't.

6 Q. And that's what it would be is a guess if you

7 were to testify about that?

8 A. Yes. I mean I haven't seen -- I haven't seen

9 a study about that. But I do know that there are voters

10 in my district who don't have the ability to participate

11 meaningfully in the election of their member of

12 Congress.

54


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations HUBERT VO

State Defendants’


Hubert Vo

1



7:1-2

REPRESENTATIVE HUBERT VO,

2 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

13:15-16

15 Q. First of all, what is your current address?

16 A. [REDACTED] Houston, [REDACTED].

15:10-12

10 Q. So you were first elected as a House District

11 Representative in November of 2004?

12 A. Yes.

17:8-9

8 Q. Okay. You're a Democrat. Correct?

9 A. Yes, I am.

25:9-26:24

9 Q. Okay. Well, let me first ask you where did

10 you -- this was discussed, that they wanted the 2001

11 redistricting map to be a member-driven map. Is that

12 right?

13 A. 2001?

14 Q. 2011. Sorry.

15 A. Within the Houston delegation, that's what I

16 heard.

17 Q. Okay. Did you hear that -- was -- the House

18 leadership in 2011, were they -- did they express that

19 that was one of their goals?

20 A. I believe the Speaker of the House was

2



21 Representative Straus, Joe Straus. He said that members

22 will work together on your redistricting map according

23 to the -- your county. That's what he said from the

24 beginning.

25 Q. Okay. And you heard the term "member driven"?

Page 26

1 A. Yes, I heard the term, but I don't recall

2 where did I hear that term at.

3 Q. Okay. Now, one thing you alluded to is that

4 there were counties called drop-in counties that

5 were where delegations from a specific area were asked

6 to meet regarding redistricting issues. Is that a fair

7 statement?

8 A. I believe that the Speaker encouraged us to --

9 that the delegation of the county should work together.

10 Q. Okay. And that's what I'm getting at. Was it

11 your understanding that there were some counties, Harris

12 County being one of them, where the members were --

13 where the House leadership asked the members to work out

14 the districts in their specific counties?

15 A. I don't know about the leadership; but I

16 remember Joe Straus, Representative Straus, talked about

17 it, yes.

18 Q. Okay. And is it a true statement that in

19 2011, during the redistricting process, that not only

20 Harris County but other counties were sort of delegated

3



21 to the House to -- to those members to work out some of

22 the boundaries within the county?

23 A. I was focusing on my county, Harris County,

24 and so I didn't know.

27:11-18

11 Q. Okay. And it's a true statement that the

12 census numbers in -- that the redistricting lines were

13 dependent upon receiving the census numbers. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, it's my understanding that the -- that

16 the regular session of the Legislature lasted

17 approximately 140 days. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct, yes.

28:9-14

9 Q. And so when was it -- you had indicated that

10 Speaker Straus, on the floor, had mentioned that he

11 wanted the counties such as Harris County to -- to work

12 together to try to work out some sort of agreement on

13 the boundaries within the county. Right?

14 A. Yes.

31:19-23

19 Q. Are you saying that in those discussions that

20 you wanted to bring the Alief community itself -- you

21 wanted to bring it into one district?

22 A. Not -- not the majority. It could never be in

23 one district.

4



35:18-36:1

18 Q. Okay. So in the benchmark plan as you began

19 the 2011 redistricting session, there were four House

20 districts that encompassed the Alief area. Is that

21 right?

22 A. Just part of it, yes. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Any others? Just those four?

24 A. I believe this is all of Alief --

25 Q. Okay.

Page 36

1 A. -- yes.

36:22-38:14

22 Q. 22 years. Okay. And so there are Asian

23 communities, as I understand it, in District 149?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. There were -- there were Asian communities in

Page 37

1 District 133?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. There were Asian communities in District 137?


5 Q. There were Asian communities in District 138?

6 A. 138?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes. It's above west -- no. It is on the

9 north side of Highwood. I haven't looked closely at

5



10 138; but I know Asians are almost everywhere in Houston,

11 yes.

12 Q. Okay. And the -- the Asian community there in

13 southwest Houston had been divided over multiple House

14 districts as you come into the 2011 redistricting

15 session. Correct?

16 A. Yes. But the majority was in 149, yes.

17 Q. Okay. And let's look back at Exhibit No. 1.

18 There's some population information about those

19 districts, and maybe the easiest to look at would be

20 Plan H100, which would be the Red-106. You can see that

21 the districts are lined up on the left column, and do

22 you see the column that says District 149?

23 A. Yes, I see it.

24 Q. In Plan H100, the -- it appears that the

25 Hispanic CVAP in your district was 19 percent, the black

Page 38

1 percentage alone was 26.1 percent, the white alone was

2 37.6 percent, and the Asian alone was 16.2 percent. Did

3 I read that correctly?

4 A. Yes, you did.

5 Q. And so that was the breakdown of District 149

6 as you came into the 2011 redistricting session?

7 A. Okay. This is based on this VAP, citizen

8 voting age population, but it's not all of the whole

9 total population. That's -- that's correct, right?

6



10 That's what I see right here. The VAP --

11 Q. It's the --

12 A. -- right?

13 Q. No. It's the citizen voting age population --

14 A. Yes, yes.

38:24-39:3

24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And so with respect to --

25 as far as the majority population in District 149, it

Page 39

1 was 37 -- it was -- it was the Anglo population.

2 Correct?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

39:11-40:2

11 Q. Okay. And -- and we've already talked about

12 that 16.2 percent was the Asian voting age population.

13 Now let's look at District 133, which is

14 the previous page, and in particular I want to look at

15 the citizen voting age population for Asians in 133.

16 That was 9.9 percent; correct?

17 A. Yes. That's what I see here --

18 Q. Okay.

19 A. -- yes.

20 Q. All right. And then with respect to

21 District 137, the percentage of Asian alone was 11.6.

22 Correct?

23 A. Yes.

7



24 Q. Okay. So the Asian population was -- as the

25 2011 session began, it was approximately 10 percent in

Page 40

1 137 and 133 and approximately 16 percent in 149?

2 A. Yes, yes.

41:12-42:1

12 Q. Coming into the 2011 redistricting session,

13 that had -- that was not the existing map? Alief was

14 not in one but instead it was in four different House

15 districts?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. Okay. And you didn't propose a plan that put

18 Alief into one district?

19 A. I know that's impossible. So I wouldn't

20 bother to do it, sir.

21 Q. Okay. And why would you say that that would

22 be impossible?

23 A. There's politics involved.

24 Q. Because it would be a Democratic district and

25 you knew the Republicans dominate the Legislature?

Page 42

1 A. Yes.

45:14-23

14 Q. Do you -- did you feel that -- that -- was

15 there a reason to have redistricting hearings? To get

16 citizen input, is that a -- let me ask it a different

8



17 way. Did you feel like it was a good thing to have

18 citizen input at redistricting hearings?

19 A. Yes. It's always a good thing to do, yes.

20 Q. Okay. And so you felt like that -- that that

21 redistricting hearing was helpful to the process, to

22 hear citizens' input?

23 A. I'd say yes.

46:3-10

3 Q. Okay. Now, I won't go through them all, but

4 there were also a number of Senate hearings that were

5 held related to the Senate redistricting committee. Is

6 that what that document -- those documents reflect?

7 A. Yes. I can see that it is on here, yes.

8 Q. It looks like they were Amarillo, Midland,

9 Edinburg and san Antonio?

10 A. Yeah. I can see that it is on there.

46:19-22

19 Q. Were there any major regions in the State of

20 Texas that were missed by those field hearings held in

21 2010 by the redistricting committee?

22 A. I can see everything is on here.

47:7-18


8 Q. I'll hand you what's been marked as Exhibit

9 No. 4, and can you tell me what this document is?

10 A. Yeah. This is from Representative Solomons,

9



11 which he was the chairman of the redistricting committee

12 I believe.

13 Q. And it looks like it's directed to all of the

14 members of the 82nd Texas House of Representatives.

15 Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you received this during the session?

18 A. Yes, I believe I have. Yes.

49:15-50:2

15 Q. Do you agree with Mr. Solomons' statement that

16 members had several resources available through the

17 system in redistricting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Do you feel like those resources were

20 adequate, Red Apple and --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- the rest that he outlines?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were Texas Legislative Council attorneys

25 available to help with specific legal questions

Page 50

1 regarding redistricting?

2 A. Yes.

51:3-7

3 Q. Did you have access to legal counsel during

4 the 2011 session?

10



5 A. Access to legal counsel?

6 Q. Yes, in addition to Texas Legislative Council.

7 A. Yes. From the Democratic Caucus, yes.

55:14-16

14 Q. So the Harris County delegation was allotted

15 25 districts, correct -- I mean 24 districts. Right?

16 A. When -- Yes. Redistricting in 2011, yes.

55:24-57:1

24 Now, you understand that based on

25 population that the -- that the number -- that the

Page 56

1 districts allocated to Harris County was 24.4126.

2 Correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And this is -- this is a number that's

5 obtained by dividing the population of the -- the

6 population of the state, as ascertained by the census,

7 by the number of members of which the House is composed.

8 Is that your understanding of how that -- that's

9 derived?

10 A. Yes, the 24.4126.

11 Q. So you basically divide 150 into 25,000,000?

12 A. Right, yes.

13 Q. And then you come up with an ideal district

14 population of 167,637 --

15 A. Yes, yes.

11



16 Q. -- correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that when you do that that Harris County

19 comes up 24.4126 districts. Right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, obviously, 24.41 is closer to 24

22 than 25. Correct?

23 A. I don't necessarily agree to that because if

24 you look at the 2001 redistricting, it was almost like

25 at this percentage right here, too, and they round it

Page 57

1 out to 25, and in 2011, they round it out to 24 so...

57:15-23

15 Q. I'll show you Deposition Exhibit No. 6. Now,

16 the language in the -- in the Texas Constitution says

17 that the House -- the members of the House of

18 Representatives shall be apportioned among the several

19 counties, according to the number of population in each,

20 as nearly as may be. Correct? Did I --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- read that correctly?

23 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

58:3-9

3 Q. Okay. Were -- were you ever told by House

4 leadership that the reason for the rounding to 24

5 instead of 25 was that the constitutional requirement

12



6 that we're just -- that we're looking at requires

7 rounding to the number as nearly as may be?

8 A. I don't recall. I might have missed that, but

9 I don't recall that so...

59:13-60:4

13 Q. You were critical of the -- of utilizing 25 --

14 24 districts instead of 25, and I think one of the

15 things you said is that in 2001 that the map that was

16 drawn had -- they had rounded up to 25 districts.

17 Correct?

18 A. Yes. Yeah. That was not consistent with what

19 they have done in 2011.

20 Q. And do you know if the -- in 2001 if the Texas

21 Legislature -- Texas Legislature voted on a plan that --

22 well, let me just ask this: Do you know if the

23 legislative redistricting board allocated 25, or was

24 that the Legislature that allocated 25 in 2001?

25 A. I don't know. I wasn't here. I wasn't there

Page 60

1 by that time yet so...

2 Q. Okay. Do you know if the Legislature actually

3 voted on a plan for 24 in 2001?

4 A. No, I don't know that.

13



75:3-7

3 with Representative Scott Hochberg. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You and Mr. Hochberg are both Democrats.

6 Correct?

7 A. Yes.

75:11-24

11 Q. We can look back at the -- at the figures but

12 would you -- if you want, but would you agree that

13 Williamson County had experienced significant growth in

14 between the censuses?

15 A. I didn't pay attention to Williamson County.

16 Q. All right. But that's where 149 ended up,

17 isn't it?

18 A. Was moved, yes. Yes.

19 Q. All right. But as far as what the population

20 growth of Williamson County was, you don't know --

21 A. No.

22 Q. -- whether they -- whether the allocation was

23 appropriate or not?

24 A. No. I didn't look into that, no.

76:9-22

9 Q. Okay. Do you know if Mr. Hochberg had been

10 paired in past districting sessions?

11 A. I heard, yes.

12 Q. Okay. Were you aware that in 2001 that

14



13 Mr. Hochberg was actually paired with two other members,

14 Representatives Danburg and Janek?

15 A. That's what I heard, yes.

16 Q. Okay. So this wasn't the first time that

17 the -- that the Legislature or the -- or the districting

18 decision-makers had paired Mr. Hochberg. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. This -- this wasn't, and so the answer

21 is no. Right?

22 A. It wasn't, right. It's no. Yes. I'm sorry.

77:2-80:9


3 Q. (Mr. Sweeten continuing) All right. So I'm

4 going to go ahead and show you the map that was adopted

5 by the Texas Legislature in 2011, Plan H283. This is

6 Exhibit No. 9, and like the others it has a statewide

7 map on the front and it has a district map as the second

8 page, and it has a Red-100 report from the Texas

9 Legislative Council and a Red-106 and a Red-109 and one

10 more, a Red-350.

11 So this is the ultimate map that was

12 passed by the -- by the House of Representatives,

13 correct, this Exhibit No. 9?

14 A. I just blanked my mind. I don't remember the

15 plan number really.

16 Q. Okay.

15



17 A. No. 283, that's what it shows on here. Yeah,

18 I -- that's the one that we passed, yeah.

19 Q. That's what you passed.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. All right. Now, let's -- let's look back --

22 let's start on -- the last document is Red-350, and this

23 is a document from the Texas Legislative Council that

24 relates to incumbents by districts. It lists those.

25 Correct?

Page 78

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. And as you can see from the incumbent listing,

3 Plan H283 does pair some of the sitting members.

4 Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, if you'll look at the back page,

7 it shows what you're paired with Representative

8 Hochberg, but I want to start from the first and ask you

9 about that.

10 It's a true statement that -- that

11 this -- that the plan ultimately passed by the

12 Legislature paired Representative Cain and

13 Representative Flynn. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And Representative Cain and Representative

16 Flynn are both Republicans. Correct?

16



17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Are they both -- are they Anglos?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. The next pairing appears to be

21 District 34. There's an incumbent pairing in that

22 district of Representative Connie Scott and

23 Representative Raul Torres. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And Representative Scott is an Anglo.

Page 79

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And Representative Torres is Hispanic.

4 Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And both of those individuals were Republicans

7 that were paired. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The -- if you go down the list further,

10 there's District No. 88. Representative Chisum and

11 Representative Landtroop are two Republicans that were

12 also paired in District 88; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Representative Warren Chisum is -- is an

15 Anglo. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17



17 Q. And Representative Landtroop, is that person

18 an Anglo as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. If we can go down to District 105,

21 there's a pairing of Representative Rodney Anderson, who

22 is -- and Linda Harper-Brown.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Both of those individuals are Anglos. Is that

25 correct?

Page 80

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And they're both Republicans. Right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. And then the next pairing in Plan H283

5 is -- is you and Representative Hochberg. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. So there were -- there were a total of

8 six pairings that were in H283?

9 A. I remember some -- something like that, yes.

80:17-81:22

17 Q. Okay. You're -- you're saying you don't have

18 an opinion one way or the other as to whether the other

19 incumbents who were paired were targeted?

20 A. I didn't have a chance to look into those

21 districts at all, and so I didn't pay much attention to

22 those districts. So I don't know what's the reason

18



23 they've been paired.

24 Q. Okay. Your -- your concern -- and this may

25 be helpful as to my question in 2011. Your concern --

Page 81

1 your primary concern obviously was Harris County.

2 That's what you focussed on and that's what --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- that's what you know about. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As far as districting decisions that were made

7 in Dallas or districting decisions made in Corpus or

8 districting decisions made elsewhere in the map, you're

9 not offering an opinion one way or the other regarding

10 those decisions. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And is it also a true statement that

13 you don't have personal information about why the

14 decisions were made in those -- in various areas outside

15 of Harris County? Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it's also a true statement that with

18 respect to why decisions were made in Harris County, you

19 don't know the reason for certain decisions that were

20 made; this is simply your perception. Correct?

21 A. Yes. And based on the facts and the numbers,

22 that's my perception, yes.

19



82:3-83:9

3 Q. Okay. Are there other Asian-American

4 Legislators in the -- in the Texas Legislature?

5 A. By that time? You were referring to 2011 or

6 now?

7 Q. I guess now would be --

8 A. Yeah. We have two more.

9 Q. So you've got Gene Wu --

10 A. And Angie Chen Button, yes.

11 Q. So they've got you, Angie Chen Button and --

12 A. Gene Wu.

13 Q. -- Gene Wu?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In 2011, it was you and Angie Chen Button?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Angie Chen Button was not paired.

20 Correct?

21 A. No, she was not. Yes.

22 Q. So if you'll look at the Red-106 plan that's

23 attached to Exhibit 9, and specifically I'd ask if you'd

24 look at House District 137, the -- the percentage of

25 Hispanic CVAP in District 137 was 26.3 based on

20



Page 83

1 Plan H283. Correct?

2 A. You said Hispanic. Yes, yes.

3 Q. The percentage of black alone was 28.9?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. White alone had gone down to 26.8. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then Asian alone was at 17.1. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

85:12-86:2

12 Q. When you're referring to the community of

13 interest that exists in 149, you're referring to the

14 Alief community and you're referring to the Asian

15 community in District 149. Right?


17 Q. Okay. Now, it's a true statement that under

18 the benchmark plan, which you were referring to, that

19 the -- that the Alief community had already been -- was

20 in four different districts under the benchmark plan.

21 Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And it's also a true statement that the Asian

24 community was not simply in one district, 149, but was

25 actually in multiple districts throughout southwest

21



Page 86

1 Houston. Correct?

2 A. Yes --

86:5-19

5 Q. Okay. It's true that -- that under the

6 benchmark plan that had been in existence from 2001

7 until that redistricting session in 2011 that the --

8 that there had been a substantial Asian community in

9 District 133?

10 A. I believe we have a larger community -- Asian

11 community in 149. 133 has somewhat, yes.

12 Q. Okay. We looked at the numbers. It's

13 something like 16 percent in 149, correct, of CVAP?

14 A. Yes. I recall, yes.

15 Q. And under the benchmark, in 133 it was

16 somewhere -- approximately 10 percent. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The Asian?

19 A. Yes.

94:7-15

7 Q. I want to ask the question again. You would

8 agree with me that the Asian community, as reflected in

9 the benchmark Plan H100, was scattered over multiple

10 House districts in southwest Houston. Correct?

11 MR. GOLANDO: Objection, argumentative

12 and asked and answered.

22



13 A. Yes. But I would say -- still would say the

14 larger concentration of the Asian community was in the

15 benchmark 149.

98:5-8

5 Q. Okay. As you're sitting here today, do you

6 have an opinion as to which two Representatives should

7 have been paired in Harris County?

8 A. No, I don't have an opinion on that.

107:17-108:10

17 Q. Okay. Now, one of the things I think we've

18 established but I want to make sure I'm clear on is that

19 you don't have an opinion one way or the other about the

20 rest of the districts that were drawn in the House.

21 Your opinion is -- is to that of Harris County.

22 Correct?

23 MR. FREEMAN: Objection, asked and

24 answered.

25 Q. Is that also the same with respect to the

Page 108

1 Congressional plan? Is that not something that

2 you're -- that you know -- that you're familiar with?

3 A. Right. That's correct.

4 Q. Okay. You're not -- it's not your testimony

5 that you have objections to the current Congressional

6 map one way or the other. Correct?


23



8 Q. And I shouldn't say "current." I should say

9 the Congressional map passed by the Texas House in 2011.


113:17-114:3

17 Q. Did you believe that the San Antonio's interim

18 court plan had improved on the problems that you

19 perceived from the 2011 Legislature's adoption of H283?

20 A. Yes. They improved based on the benchmark of

21 149 before and stayed on it, and so yes.

22 Q. So you felt -- and would you agree that it

23 was -- that the San Antonio Court's adoption of the

24 interim plan, in your view, was a substantial

25 improvement over what H283 had adopted?

Page 114

1 A. Again I'm referring to District 149. Simply

2 they just -- based on the benchmark of 149 in 2000 --

3 yeah, in 2001, I believe, yes.

124:2-10

2 Q. So the special session was called by the

3 Governor in late May of 2013. Correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you agree that the Texas House should take

6 up again the issue of redistricting?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And that's something you felt was

9 appropriate for the House to -- to address?

24



10 A. Yes.

126:10-25

10 Q. And have you worked with Chairman Darby in the

11 past?

12 A. Yes, I have.

13 Q. Do you believe Representative Darby to be a

14 fair man?

15 A. He was, yes.

16 Q. Okay. Did you meet with Darby or anyone on

17 the select committee to discuss the issue of

18 redistricting?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Okay. And did -- I guess I should ask did you

21 meet with Representative Darby himself?

22 A. Yes, I have.

23 Q. Okay. What about other members of the

24 committee?

25 A. Yes, I have.

130:12-14

12 Q. Did you feel like you had adequate resources

13 during the Texas redistricting session?

14 A. Yes, I did.

130:19-21

19 Q. Okay. Were you -- Did you feel like you were

20 allowed to participate in the process?

21 A. Yes, yes.

25



140:4-25

4 Q. So the amendments were allowed by Chairman

5 Darby to the redistricting bill, and he announced that

6 in the public committee hearing. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. The -- and you filed this amendment the

9 night before the floor debate --

10 A. Just --

11 Q. -- on the redistricting committee?

12 A. That morning.

13 Q. Okay. And I should say floor debate on -- on

14 the House floor.

15 A. On the House floor that morning, yes.

16 Q. You filed it on -- on the morning of the House

17 debate?

18 A. Yes, just by right in time to -- to have that.

19 Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Now, your amendment was not the only

21 amendment offered to the court-drawn plans?

22 A. That's correct. Other amendments were

23 offered, yes.

24 Q. Representative Anchia offered an amendment

25 that was adopted. Correct?

141:4-17

4 Q. Would it -- Do you have any reason to dispute

5 one way or the other whether six amendments were adopted

26



6 or added to the overall redistricting map?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Needless to say, your bill was -- your

9 amendment was added?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The changes that you wished to have occur, and

12 they're reflected in 318, those changes were made a part

13 of the overall Texas House redistricting plan?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That plan was adopted as H358. Correct?

16 A. I think that's the number. I don't know.

17 When it comes to the number, I'm really bad about it.

144:17-145:5

17 Q. Okay. Now, you understand that certainly the

18 Republicans were the majority in the -- in the House of

19 Representatives during 2013. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you understand that the reality is as a

22 Democrat that you're not always going to get the changes

23 that you want?


25 Q. And that's part of politics, compromise.

Page 145

1 Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. And you did compromise in your -- in

27



4 your plan that you offered?

5 A. Yes.

168:21-169:2

21 Q. With respect to Alief, it's true, isn't it,

22 that if Alief -- and first is it your testimony that

23 Alief itself -- the entire Alief community could be put

24 in one House district and remain under a population of

25 167,000?

Page 169

1 A. Not the entire Alief, but the majority of

2 Alief.

169:6-20

6 Q. Okay. Now, if you had a majority -- if you

7 had a district based on the -- on the majority Alief

8 population that you're talking about, it's true, isn't

9 it, that that would be a Democratic district? Right?

10 A. Not a safe Democratic district, no, because we

11 have some -- if you look at the map and you analyze,

12 there's some Anglo population -- Republican Anglo

13 population in the Alief community also. There's some

14 older Anglo communities in the Alief area too.

15 Q. It would be a Democratic district nonetheless?

16 A. It would be a Democratic district.

17 Q. Okay. And it's -- it's your testimony that

18 you believe that your district is a competitive

19 Democratic district?

28



20 A. Yes, it is.

173:3-12

3 Q. Okay. Well, in any event, it's a true

4 statement, isn't it, that under State House Plan H100

5 there -- there are multiple Vietnamese communities in

6 multiple House districts shown on that map? Correct?

7 A. Yes, but the concentration is 149.

8 Q. And -- and that was the case, that -- the fact

9 that those were split up into different districts as you

10 come into the 2011 redistricting session. Those were

11 the existing lines. Right?

12 A. Yes.

29


Perez v. Perry – State Defendants’ Deposition Designations ROYCE WEST

1

State Defendants’


Royce West



2

5:7-11

7 Q. My name is Jenny Jackson, and I'm here from th e

8 State of Texas representing the state and the sta te

9 officials who are defendants. Can you please stat e your

10 name for the reporter?

11 A. Royce West.

19:21-20:3

21 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) Okay. In -- let's start with

22 2011. In the 2011 cycle relating to the House ma p, did

23 you provide any input on the maps?

24 A. Not at all.

25 Q. And given the arrangement where the Senate de als

Page 20

1 with the Senate and the House deals with the Hous e, was

2 there input that you wanted to give but chose not to?

3 A. No.

27:8-28:8

8 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) Can you please describe for m e

9 the coalitions?

10 A. In terms of 2011, 2013, or what?

11 Q. Let's start with the broader political

12 environment in Dallas/Fort Worth.

13 A. It kind of depends in terms of what the race is.

14 It depends upon the race.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. In terms of what the coalition is.

17 Q. All right. Do voters in the Dallas/Fort Worth



3

18 area tend to vote similarly or differently? Let' s say, do

19 Anglos in the Dallas/Fort Worth area tend to vot e

20 similarly with Hispanics, have similar interests ?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Okay. And what about Anglos and

23 African-Americans?

24 A. It kind of depends upon the race.

25 Q. Okay. And what are the factors that would mak e

Page 28

1 it go one way or the other?

2 A. The race. I mean, what a person is running for .

3 And I answered the question a few minutes ago, yo u asked

4 did Anglos and -- I think the first one, Anglos a nd

5 Hispanics? It kind of -- I said they don't vote t ogether.

6 It kind of depends upon the race. I mean, the coa lition

7 is predicated pretty much on what the race is, wh at office

8 is being considered.

57:1-58:21

1 Q. Okay. And did you feel like you had adequate

2 advice of counsel as it related to the 2013 redis tricting

3 process?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And why not?

6 A. Because I didn't have -- I never had meetings --

7 I don't recall having meetings with legislative c ounsel or

8 the counsel that was appointed to the committee.

9 Q. And did you request those meetings from leg



4

10 counsel?

11 A. I don't think so.

12 Q. Did you approach anyone from leg counsel abou t

13 the redistricting bills in 2013?

14 A. I don't recall off the top of my head whether I

15 did or not.

16 Q. Have you used legislative counsel in connecti on

17 with other bills in the past?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And so if you wanted the advice of counsel, w hy

20 didn't you approach legislative counsel about th e

21 redistricting process?

22 MR. BLEDSOE: Objection, argumentative.

23 A. Committee counsel would have been the

24 appropriate counsel to approach, not legislative counsel.

25 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) And did you approach Heath

Page 58

1 Bickerstaff, the counsel, in connection with

2 redistricting?

3 A. I don't recall that I did.

4 Q. Looking at this March -- I'm sorry, May 30

5 transcript -- actually, it's not in here. I'm goi ng to

6 hand you what I'm going to mark as Exhibit 6.

7 (EXHIBIT NO. 6 WAS MARKED)

8 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) If we look at the page that's

9 got No. 7 in the top center --

10 A. Okay.



5

11 Q. -- about halfway down, the chairman says,

12 "There's a memo on your desk notifying members t hat

13 committee counseling is from Bob Heath with Heat h

14 Bickerstaff." And so on June 6, the chairman not ified

15 everybody that Heath Bickerstaff was the counsel -- the

16 committee counsel; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And so at that time or at any time between th en

19 and the end of the special session on redistrict ing, did

20 you contact Heath Bickerstaff for their advice?

21 A. I don't recall whether I did or not.

61:11-20

11 Q. Okay. Let's go back. On June 6, I believe

12 that's the transcript we're looking at as Exhibi t 6, you

13 requested a hearing -- that the Senate hold a he aring in

14 Dallas; is that correct?


16 Q. And did the Senate, in fact, hold a hearing i n

17 Dallas?

18 A. No.

19 Q. The Senate did hold other field hearings, rig ht?

20 A. Yes.

63:2-66:21


3 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) And if we'd turn to the third

4 page. I'm sorry, there aren't page numbers on her e. This

5 is the notice for the House Redistricting Committ ee



6

6 hearing, and if you look at place, it was held at the DART

7 headquarters in Dallas; is that correct?


9 Q. On June 6. And the notice lays out multiple

10 bills that were up for consideration including H ouse

11 Bill 1, which addresses the Texas House and Unit ed States

12 Congress; House Bill 3, which is just the Texas House of

13 Representatives; and House Bill 4, which is the United

14 States House of Representatives; is that correct ?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And then the subsequent bills, there's one, t wo,

17 three, four -- two from Yvonne Davis, one from C oleman,

18 and one from Anchia that are amendments to the

19 redistricting bills; is that correct?

20 A. They are amendments? I don't know whether the y

21 are amendments or not.

22 Q. But this notice states that they are all rela ted

23 to the composition of districts?

24 A. Yes, all of them are House bills.

25 Q. Okay. And I'm going to hand you what's being

Page 64

1 marked as Exhibit 8.


3 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) And these are minutes from th e

4 House Redistricting Committee's meeting on June 6 in

5 Dallas; is that correct?

6 A. They appear to be.



7

7 Q. And it says in the middle paragraph that the

8 meeting was called to order at 2:07 p.m.?


10 Q. And on the last page it concluded at 8:41 p.m .;

11 is that correct? The very last line before the s ignature.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So that's over six and a half hours of hearin g

14 time; is that correct?

15 A. For the House?

16 Q. Uh-huh.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you tell your constituents about the Dall as

19 House hearing?

20 A. I don't recall whether I did or not.

21 Q. Okay. Was the fact that the House had a heari ng

22 in Dallas sufficient to meet your concerns about Dallas

23 area constituents being able to give input on th e maps?

24 A. No.

25 Q. No? And why not?

Page 65

1 A. Because historically it's never been done that

2 way. The House -- in terms of the normal process as I

3 recall is that either the House -- the House has a set of

4 hearings, and maybe at the same locations or area s the

5 Senate separately has hearings, or that you have combined

6 hearings where both committees are meeting at the same

7 time.



8

8 Q. Okay. So had this instead been a joint hearing

9 of the two chambers, would that have satisfied yo ur desire

10 for a Dallas hearing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ask either leg counsel or Heath

13 Bickerstaff whether the Senate could consider te stimony

14 from the House hearing?

15 A. I asked the chairman.

16 Q. And what response did the chairman give?

17 A. He said that he thought that it could but

18 that -- actually, he said that he thought that i t could,

19 but frankly had not read nor been briefed on the

20 transcript of the House hearing in Dallas to mak e a

21 determination as to whether or not he would supp ort my

22 amendment for a new Congressional seat in the Da llas area

23 for Hispanics.

24 Q. Okay. Did you contact anyone from leg counsel

25 about whether or not the Senate could consider t estimony

Page 66

1 from the House hearing?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And did you contact anyone from Heath

4 Bickerstaff about that question?

5 A. Just contacted the chairman.

6 Q. Do you feel that more field hearings should ha ve

7 been held?

8 A. Yes.



9

9 Q. And how many more field hearings do you believ e

10 should have been held?

11 A. I think that there should have been an agreem ent

12 amongst the senators in terms of where we want t o have

13 field hearings. Let me give you an example. I th ink this

14 may have been back in 2003. We had hearings acro ss the

15 state of Texas on redistricting. I think that pr ocess

16 should have been -- it should have been the same process.

17 Q. Okay. So are you saying that 11 hearings in t wo

18 and a half weeks was not enough in 2013?

19 A. Eleven hearings in two and a half weeks?

20 Q. Uh-huh.

21 A. I would say yes, is not enough.

84:4-13

4 Q. Okay. So you don't have any personal knowledge

5 of anybody in the legislature making a conscious decision

6 to say I want to discriminate against minorities, so I'm

7 going to vote for this map?

8 A. You're talking about in 2011?

9 Q. Let's start with 2013.

10 A. I have no personal knowledge.

11 Q. What about 2011?

12 A. Well, I have no personal knowledge of someone

13 saying I want to discriminate, no.

96:18-98:3

18 Q. Okay. We talked earlier about your district,

19 Senate District 23. Did you have any requests th at



10

20 certain areas be included or excluded from your district

21 during the redistricting process?

22 A. I'm pretty certain I did, but I just can't

23 recall what they were. I know that I wanted to m ake

24 certain that I kept the Uptown and Turtle Creek area of

25 the district.

Page 97

1 Q. Were those requests accommodated?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you recall if any of your requests for

4 certain areas in the district were accommodated?

5 A. Probably in the southern part of the district.

6 Q. In the southern part of the district? And what

7 requests might those have been?

8 A. Making Cedar Hill whole and -- Cedar Hill and

9 the southwest sector of the district, and I think also

10 bringing in the lake down there.

11 Q. Okay. Do you -- I'm going to hand you what's

12 being marked as Exhibit 16.


14 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) And this is testimony of Dou g

15 Davis from the Section 5 trial. And between line s 14 and

16 20, he recalls requests that you had made for yo ur

17 district specifically relating to downtown Dalla s. Do you

18 believe the areas of downtown Dallas that you ta lked about

19 were included in your district?

20 A. Where?



11

21 Q. Line 14 to 15.

22 A. I don't recall this conversation.

23 Q. Okay. Does your current district incorporate

24 the areas of downtown Dallas?

25 A. Yes.

Page 98

1 Q. And your district now does incorporate the

2 portion of Cedar Hill that you wanted?

3 A. It does.

117:5-15


6 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) And again, what we've got her e

7 is a map followed by some pages from the Red Appl e report.

8 Does this look like the Plan C248 that you introd uced on

9 the floor of the –

10 A. Can we go off the record for a second?

11 Q. Okay.

12 (Discussion off the record.)

13 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) Who came up with the idea fo r

14 this Plan C248?

15 A. Who came up with the idea? I did.

118:16-18

16 Q. Okay. What is Plan C248 intended to accomplis h?

17 A. To create another minority district in the st ate

18 of Texas and North Central Texas.

122:25-123:4

25 Q. Okay. I want to look a little bit at



12

Page 123

1 Exhibit 17, the Red 116 report, which is the hori zontal

2 one again, the last two or three pages. Is there -- are

3 there any districts in this list that contain His panic

4 CVAP over 50 percent?

123:9-22

9 Q. Are there any districts with a black only

10 percent CVAP over 50 percent?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And looking back at the C235 map, Exhibit 16, I

13 think is there -- maybe it's -- it's Exhibit 10, I'm

14 sorry. If we flip back to this chart, I think it 's the

15 last two pages there.

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. District 30 on this chart has a black only CV AP

18 of 53.5 percent; is that correct?


20 Q. So on your plan, that drops down to 48.0; is

21 that correct?


128:9-15

9 Q. (By Ms. Jackson) Okay. So you -- as you were

10 drawing this, you weren't drawing it with an eye towards a

11 required district under the Voting Rights Act?

12 MR. BLEDSOE: Object, argumentative,

13 mischaracterizes testimony.

14 A. I was drawing this district to maximize Hispa nic



13

15 participation.


Documents

Exhibit B-3 Text Designations (Thompson-West)moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Perez11885.pdf · Exhibit B-3 Text Designations (Thompson-West) ... Rogene Coleman,