Episode 245: Ari Whitten on Fighting Fatigue and …...Ari Whitten is a best-selling author, a nutrition and lifestyle expert and the founder of The Energy Blueprint. And he's also

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Episode245:AriWhittenonFightingFatigueand

AnxietyWithSauna,Hormesis,NRF2,&SunExposure


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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Katie:Helloandwelcometo"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com,andI'mheretodaywithamuchrequestedreturnguest.AriWhittenisabest-sellingauthor,anutritionandlifestyleexpertandthefounderofTheEnergyBlueprint.Andhe'salsoagoodfriendofmine.Hehasbeenstudyingandteachinghealthscienceforover20years,hehasaBachelorofScienceinkinesiology,andherecentlyalsocompletedthecourseworkforhisPhDinclinicalpsychology.Forthelastfiveyears,hehasteamedupwithworld-renownedscientistsandphysicianstodevelopTheEnergyBlueprintsystemwhichisapowerfulevidence-basedsystemforovercomingfatigueandincreasingenergylevels.Itisamazingandyouguysshouldcheckitout.Wearegonnadelveintothattodayalongwithsomeothertopics.But,Ari,welcomeandthanksforbeinghere.

Ari:Yeah,thankssomuchforhavingme,Katie.It'salwaysapleasuretohangoutandtalktoyou.

Katie:Likewise.Andyouareoneofthemostpopularguestofalltime,soIfigureditwaspastduetimetohaveyoubackonandtohaveanotherconversation.AndIlovethattherearesomanytopicsthatyoucanspeakto.Tostartoff,I'dlovetotouchononethatyouandItalkedabout,lasttimewesaweachotherinperson,whichwassaunause.Thisissomething,obviously,growinginpopularityrightnow.Lotsofresearchandthingsbeingwrittenaboutit,I'veseenalotofarticlesonsomanysitesrightnowaboutsaunas.Andit'stopofmindformebecauseIjustgotbackfromFinlandwheretherearealmosthalfasmanysaunasaspeopleandit'sverymuchapartoftheirculture.Sotostartoff,I'dlovetohearyourtakeonwhatyouseeasthebiggestbenefitsofsaunas.

Ari:Soyeah,it'sagreatquestion.Andbytheway,IsawyourpicturesfromyourtriptoFinland,anditlookedamazing.TheplacethatyoustayedinwiththeglassdomesandlookingattheNorthernLights,I'vealwayswantedtogothere.

Katie:Itwasincredible,yeah.It'sonmylisttogoback,forsure.


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Ari:Nice.Yeah,sosaunasareafascinatingtopic.I'moftheopinionthatsaunasareliterallyoneofthemostpowerfulmedicinesavailabletous.ThewayIliketosortofexplainthatistherearesomestudiesthathavelookedattheassociationbetweensaunauseandseveraldifferentthings.There'slotsofthingswecantalkabout.There'sresearchondepression,there'sresearchonneurodegenerativedisease,cardiovasculardisease,recoveryfromexercise,andfatloss,and,youknow,allkindsofdifferenttopics,subtopicswithinthere.ButI'lljustspeaktoafewstudies.

Sothere'ssomestudieswherethey'velookedattherelationshipbetweenfrequencyanddurationofsaunauseandthingslikeneurodegenerativedisease,sotheriskofdementiaandAlzheimer'sdisease.Andthey'veshowedthat,inpeopleusingthesauna4to7timesaweek,asopposedto1timeaweek,thereisalmosta70%reductionintheriskoftheseneurodegenerativediseases,dementiaandAlzheimer'sdisease.There'salsosimilarresearch...andactuallyonemorepointI'llemphasizeisthat'scomparingfourtoseventimesaweekofsaunausedtoonetimeaweek,thedifferencewouldbeevengreateriftheycomparedittopeoplenotusingasaunaatall.There'salsoresearchshowingsaunausedfourtoseventimesaweek,ascomparedtoonetimeaweek,dramaticallyreducescardiovascular-diseasemortality.Dramaticallyreducesit.Soagain,we'retalkingabout60pluspercentreductionsinmortalityriskfromthingslikestrokeandcoronary-arterydiseaseandotherformsofheartdisease.

They'veevenlookedatstudies...there'sevenresearchshowingthereductioninriskofall-causemortality,thatisthepotentialtodiefromanycauseisdramaticallyreducedbyahugeamount.So,youknow,ifwehadavisualforthis,I'dliketoshowtheactualscreenshotfromthestudy,butwhatitshowsisaverydirectcorrelationbetween,"Hey,ifsomebody'susingthesaunatwotothreetimesaweek,theirreductiongoesupthismuch.Iftheystartusingthesaunafourtoseventimesaweek,itgoesupthismuch.Iftheaveragedurationofsaunauseis10minutes,theygetthismuchbenefit.Iftheiraveragedurationis20minutes,thebenefitgoesuptremendously.Ifit's30minutes,itgoesuptremendously."Sothere'savery,verydirectandstrongcorrelationbetweenthefrequencyanddurationofyoursaunauseandyourriskof,notonlyneurodegenerativedisease,notonlyheartdisease,butyourriskofdyingfrombasicallyanythinggoesdowndramatically.

Nowtosortofframethat,I'llsaythis.Iftherewereapharmaceuticaldrugcreatedbyapharmaceuticalcompany,justadrug,apillthatyoucouldtakeeverymorning,thatshowedevenhalfofthoseeffects,likeevenhalfofthoseeffectsintermsof,"Hey,thispillnotonlyreducesyourriskofneurodegenerativediseasemassively,notonlyreducesyourriskofcardiovasculardiseasemassively,notonlyreducesyourriskofdyingofanycausemassivelybut,hey,italsofightsdepression,ithelpsspeedupyourrecovery,itboostsyourmood,ithasalloftheseotheramazingbenefits.Oh,italsoincreasesdetoxificationandwillliterallycauseyourbodytopurgeoutaccumulatedheavymetals,andphthalates,andBPA,andallkindsofothernastychemicals,"iftherewereapillthatcoulddoallofthosethingsbasicallywithoutsideeffects,yourdoctorwouldliterallylookatyoulikeyou'reinsaneifyou'renottakingthatpill.Imean,itwouldbethemostsuccessfuldruginthehistoryofthepharmaceuticalindustryanditwouldbeprescribedtobasicallyeverypersonontheplanetandyouwouldbeconsideredtotallymentallyunhealthybyyourphysicianifyourefusedtotakethatdrug.Sohopefully,thatgivespeopleanideaofhowstronglyIfeelaboutthebenefitsofsaunause.


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Katie:Yeah,definitely.I'mcuriousbecauseI'veseensomeofthosestudiesaswell,anddefinitelythefrequencyanddurationseemstomatter.Haveyoufoundanykindofgoldstandardforoptimalcasescenario?Iknowwe'regonnagetthatquestion,likehowmuchshouldapersonuseasauna,howlong?Whatwouldbethegoldstandardtoaimfor?

Ari:Yeah.That'sagreatquestion.Andtheansweristhatit'stotallyindividualatfirst.So,atfirst,itneedstobeinproportiontotheindividual'stoleranceforit.Sothisactually...letmesortofdigressintoanothertopictoframewhatsaunauseisactuallydoing.Soalotofpeoplelookatsaunauseandjustseethesweatingaspectofit,andthen,theysay,"Hey,saunasaregoodbecauseofdetoxification."Andthatistrueandthere'sresearchshowingthattheactsweatingdoesindeedpurgetoxinsfromourbody,ourbodyliterallypumpsoutthingslikelead,andmercury,andaluminum,andBPA.Imeanthere'restudieswherethey'veanalyzedthesweatfrompeopleandthey'vefoundthosesubstances,sojust,youknow,kindofwrapyourheadaroundtheideathatyourbodycanpumpoutthoseheavymetalsthroughyoursweat,whichisaprettyamazingthing.

Now,Iwouldsay,thepopularsortofthinkingbyalotofpeopleinthenaturalhealthspacearoundsaunasrightnowisthatthebenefitsofsaunauserevolvearoundthatdetoxificationaspect.MypersonalopinionisIthinkthatthedetoxificationaspect,whileimportant,isprobablylessthanmaybe30%oftheoverallbenefitsofsaunause.Sothen,thequestioniswhat'stheother70%,thatIthinkisreallyimportantthatIthinknotmanyotherpeopleareawareofortalkingabout?Andthatishormesis.Sohormesisistheconceptoftransientmetabolicstressorsthatactuallystimulateyourbodytomakeadaptationsthat,ultimately,conferhealthbenefits,thatultimatelymakethesystem,yourbody,yourcells,strongerandmoreresilientandmoreresistanttoabroadrangeofotherstressorsand,ultimately,disease,morebroadly.Now,wecantalkaboutthecellularmechanismsofwhat'sgoingontoactuallydothatbutifthatconceptsoundslikeaweirdideatopeoplelistening,especiallybecausewehavethisnegativeassociationwithstress,sopeopleareprobablylisteningandthey'reconfusedastohowI'mtalkingaboutthisbeneficialmetabolicstress.Well,exerciseisactuallyatypeofhormesis.Exerciseisnotintrinsicallyhelpful,itissomethingthatisactuallytoxicinlargedoses,anditisthereasonthatitactuallyisbeneficialisbybeingveryslightlytoxic.Soyoucreateaveryslightmetabolicstressbysubjectingyourbodytophysicalexerciseand,inresponsetothat,youactuallygetaverystrongspikeoffreeradicalsorreactiveoxygenspeciesatthecellularlevel.

Nowmostpeoplethinkoffreeradicalsasbad,freeradicals,oroxidants,orreactiveoxygenspecies,that'sallthesamething.Thetypicalthinkingonthisis,"Oh,freeradicalsarebad,antioxidantsaregood.Freeradicalscausedamage,weneedtotakeantioxidantstoneutralizethosethings."Well,itturnsoutthatalotofaspectsofthatwholelineofthinkingareactuallynotcorrect.Wecangetintomoredetailsofthatbutthekeypointhereisthatreactiveoxygenspecies,orfreeradicals,haveactuallybeenfoundtoberesponsibleforcreatingasignalingcascade,atthecellularlevel,thatactuallymakesourcellsgrowstronger.ItstimulatesadaptationsmainlyinasystemcalledtheARE,that'stheantioxidantresponseelement.Andthatisbasicallyourinternalcellularantioxidantandanti-inflammatorydefensesystemwhichis,ultimately,hundredsorthousandsoftimesmorepowerfulthananyantioxidantsyoucouldtakethroughsupplements.Sobybuildingupthatsystem,atthecellular,atthemitochondriallevelinsideofourbody,weultimatelymakeitsothatsystemismorecapable,isstronger,ismorerobust,andismoreabletoneutralizeanyburstoffreeradicalsthatitencountersinthefuture.


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Sothat'sthefundamentalreasonwhywehavethishugebodyofevidenceonexercise,notjust,youknow,forexample,creatingmorestrengthorenduranceinourmusclesor,let'ssay,makingourcardiovascularsystemworkbetterbecause,youknow,hey,ourheartpumpshardwhileweexercise,butalsodoingalloftheseotherthingslike,forexample,fightingdepression,fightinganxiety,fightingdementiaandneurodegenerativediseases.Soallthesedifferentbrainbenefits.Andthen,youknow,there'sabodyofthousandsofstudiesshowingthatdoingexercisecanfightagainstallkindsofdifferentdiseases.Sothereasonforthatisfundamentallybecauseexerciseisahormeticstressorthatisbuildingupourinternal...it'sbuildingupourmitochondriaandit'sbuildingupourinternalantioxidantsystem.

Now,tyingthisbackintosaunause,saunauseisanothertypeofhormeticstressor.It'scalledheathormesis.Andthere'sverywell-definedmechanismsofhowthisactuallyplaysoutinourbodythrough,forexample,heat-shockproteinsandstimulating,what'scalled,theNrf2pathway,andthatrelatestothatARE,thatantioxidantresponseelementthatImentionedbefore.Soweknowallthedifferentsortofmechanismsorweknowmostofthem.Andsaunauseworksprimarilytogiveusbenefits,allthosebenefitsthatImentionedbefore,throughhormesis,throughbasicallybeingatransientmetabolicstressandstimulatingourcellsandourmitochondriatogrowbiggerandstrongerandbuildinguptheantioxidant-responseelementtobemoreresistanttoallexposuresofanyfuturestressorsthatitmayencounter.Notjustheat,ornotjustexercise,butalsothingsliketoxins,emotionalstress,sleepdeprivation,poordiet,allofthethingsthatweknowarekeydriversofaging,fatigue,anddisease.Sohormesisisreallyacriticalaspectofwhysaunasaresobeneficialthatveryfewpeopleareawareofortalkingabout.

Katie:Thatmakesperfectsense.Whenitcomestohormesis,likeyoumentionedexerciseaswell,itwouldseemlikethereiskindofadose-dependentcriteriathere.Sohowcanapersonknowwhereareyouinhormesis,andthen,whereisittoomuch?Becauseevenexercisethatyoudotoomuch,it'sactuallyharmfultothebody.Soisthereawaytogaugethatorisitveryindividualized?

Ari:Yes,thankyouforreelingmebackintotheoriginalquestion.SonowthatI'veprovidedallofthatcontext,here'stheimportantparttounderstand.Justaseveryindividualhasaverydifferenttoleranceforexercise,like,forsomeperson,theycangooutandrunamarathonthisafternoonandbetotallyfineandthat'sjustlikeanormalthingforthem,that'sbecausethey'veconditionedtheirbodiesandthatnetworkIjusttalkedabout,theantioxidantresponseelement,amongothersystemsofthebody,they'veconditionedthemselvestobeabletohandleastressorlikethatreallywithoutmuchofaproblemandtheycangodothat.Now,someoneelsemightliterallyhaveaheartattackanddieifthey'dgotrytorunamarathonthisafternoon.Sothepointisthatthere'savery,verydifferentleveloftolerancefordifferentkindsofstressloads,especiallyatthebeginning.

Sowhenitcomestosaunas,it'sexactlythesamething.Someonewhoisextremelyfitandhealthyandregularlyexposesthemselvestoawidevarietyofhormeticstressors,exerciseandsaunabeingjusttwoofseveralthatwecouldtalkabout,they'regoingtohavereallyrobustmitochondriaandareallyrobustantioxidantresponseelementandtheywillbeabletohandleamuch,muchhigherlevelofsaunaexposure,highertemperature,longerdurations,thansomebodywhois,let'ssay,sedentary,hasbeenjunk-foodeatingforalongtime,andhasnotbeenexposedtomuchinthewayofhormeticstressandtheirmitochondriaareshrunkandshriveleddownandweak,andtheirantioxidantresponseelementisnotrobustatallandnotcapableofhandlingmuchstress.Sowhatthatpersonmightstartwithissomethinglikemaybe105or110


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degreesfor3minutesor5minutes.Whereas,youknow,IjustgotoutofthesaunahalfanhouragoandIwasinthereat210degreesforalmost40minutes.So,youknow,there'saverybigdifferencethereandbasicallyyouhavetostartslowandstartsmall,andthen,sortofworkyourwayupaccordingtoyourbody'stolerance.

Katie:Thatmakesperfectsense.AndIknowanotherquestionthat'softenaskedwhenitcomestosaunauseisinfraredversustraditionalsaunasandifthere'sadditionalbenefit.Andmostofthestudies,I'veseenatleast,areactuallydoneontraditionalsaunasandthey'relookingattheheatcomponent.Butthen,wenowhavealltheseinfraredsaunasandclaimsthatthey,forinstance,penetratemoredeeplyintothebodyandincreasedetoxification.SoI'mcuriousifyou'veseenanydatathatwouldindicateonewayortheotheronthat.

Ari:Yeah,thisisareallygoodquestion,andIrememberthatwetalkedaboutthisinpersonwhenwewereinCabo.Andyoureallyimpressedmewithyourlevelofknowledgeonthisbecausethisissomethingthatveryfewpeopleareawareofortalkingabout.Andit'sexactlyright,whatyousaidisthatthemajorityofstudiesonsaunause,reallyonanykindofhealthbenefit,areactuallyusingtraditionalsaunas,notusinginfraredsaunas.Therearedefinitelysomestudiesoninfrared-saunausebutIwouldsay,atleastprobably80%ofthestudies,areontraditionalsaunas.Sothat'sonething.Andnow,giventhat,itisactuallykindofabizarrethingthatmostoftheconversationthat'sbecomepopularinthenaturalhealthworld,rightnow,hasreallyfixatedoninfraredsaunasandthere'ssortofanarrativethatinfraredsaunasaresuperiorandthatthey'rejustsortofbetterineverywayandthatnobodyshoulduseatraditionalsaunabecauseinfraredsaunasaresomuchbetter.Here'swhyIthinkthat'sabitmistaken.SowhatIsaidbeforeisthatalotofpeoplehavecenteredondetoxificationandtheactofsweatingasbeingthecentralreasonwhysaunauseisbeneficial.Idon'tthinkthat'scorrect,asIsaidbefore.WhatIthinkisthattheactofthehormeticstressaspectofit,whichisactuallylikeheatingyourbodyuptoaveryhighdegree,tothepointwhereyouareuncomfortablyhot,isactuallyprobably,inmyview,responsibleforatleast70%ofthebenefitsassociatedwithsaunause.

Sohere'sthecriticaldistinction,traditionalversusinfrared.Infraredsaunasoperateatamuchlowerairtemperatureinthatroomandtheyworkthroughthemechanismofbasicallyemittingfarinfraredrays,orfarinfraredenergy,fromtheseusuallycarbonfibersorceramicemitters.Thoseraysenterintoyourbodyandtheysortofheatyouupfromtheinside.Theyheatupthewaterthatthey'recontactinginsideofyourcells,andthen,theysortofheatyouupfromtheinside.Sotheycreateasweatingeffectatamuchlowerairtemperatureintheroom,incontrasttotraditionalsaunaswhichdon'temitfarinfraredenergy,theyrelyonconvectionandbasicallyheatinguptheairintheroom,andthen,byvirtueofyousittinginaveryhotroom,justbeinginthathotairheatsyourbodyup.Butthedifferenceisthis.Sotheinfraredsaunasmayoperateatatemperaturesomewherearound130to160degreesFahrenheit,somewhereinthereisprettytypical,andthetraditionalsaunasusuallyyou'retalkingaboutarangeof170uptolike210or220degrees.Sothere'saverysizeabledifferenceintermsofthetemperatureinthatroom.

Now,inaninfraredsauna...andthisisactuallybilledaspartofthebenefitsofwhyinfraredsaunasaresuperior.Andthethinkingbehinditissortof,"Hey,youcangetthesweatingbenefitsandallthatdetoxification,"whichthey'resayingiswhereallthebenefitsarecomingfrom,"youcangetthatwhilebeingmuchmorecomfortable,whilenotbeingasuncomfortableasyouwouldbeinatraditionalsaunabecauseit'smuchlowerairtemperature."Sothepartofthatthat'strueisthat,yes,youcansweatveryeffectivelyininfraredsaunaatamuchlowertemperature.ThepartofitthatIthinkismisguidedisthatbecauseIbelieve


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thatmostofthebenefits,oralargeportionofthebenefitsofsaunause,arecomingfromheathormesis.Iactuallydon'tthinkit'snecessarilythatsmarttotryandavoidgettinguncomfortablyhotbecauseIthinkitisthatveryactofgettinguncomfortablyhotthatisresponsibleforcreatingalotofbenefitshere.

Sonow,theotherlayerofnuancetothisisthatthewayItypicallybreakthingsdown...Sohopefully,youcanseethatI'mnotnecessarilyanadvocateofinfraredsaunasovertraditionalsaunas,Iactuallythinktraditionalsaunasaregreat.Nowhavingsaidthat,Iwillsaythatforthemajorityofpeople,especiallythemajorityofpeoplethatIworkwith,likepeoplewithchronicfatigueandwho,oftentimes,haveserioushealthproblemsandarejustinaweakenedstate,thosepeopletendtodobetterininfraredsaunasbecause,oftentimes,thehighesttemperaturethattheycaneventolerateis120,130,150degreesmaybe.Andtheymightgointoatraditionalsaunaat190or200degreesandactuallybewipedoutfromit,andit'sjusttoointensefortheirbodiestohandle.It'ssortoflikethatpreviousexampleIgaveofthesedentarypersongoingandtryingtorunamarathon.Notagoodfitatthatpoint.SothewayIsortofbreakitdownis,"Hey,areyouayoung,veryhealthy,high-energy,veryresilientpersonwho'salsoveryfitandusedtodoinglotsofexercise?Well,thenyoumayactuallyfindthataninfraredsaunaistoolowofatemperatureforyouanddoesn'treallyevermakeyouuncomfortablehotandthatyoumaywannagomoreinthedirectionofatraditionalsauna."Ontheotherhand,ifyou'resomebodywho'sgotsomeseriouschronicfatigueorhealthproblemsandyou'rejustinaweakenedstateandyoufindthatyourbodyhasahardtimetoleratinganybitofstressoranybitofexercise,thenyou'reprobablyalmostcertainlygonnadobetterinaninfraredsauna.Sothat'skindahowIconceptualizethatwholespaceofinfraredversustraditional.

Katie:Yeah,Ithinkthat'ssoimportant.AndIagreewithyouthatresearchreallyseemstoindicatethebenefitofthatuncomfortablehot,whichisn'tveryfunbutitbringsmetoanotherquestion.SowhenIwasinFinland,wespentsometimeinatraditionalsaunathatgotuptoabout210degrees.Andthisoneactuallywasthesizeofasmallcabin,itwashugeandithadawood-burningstovewithrocksontopthatitwasliterallyasbigasacar.Andthen,ithadthisupperlevelwhereyouwouldallgositlikesandwichbetweensomeoldFinnishguysandyouwouldsitthereandjustlikecompletelydripsweat.Ithinkthat'swhytheyhadthesecondlayersoyoucouldlikedripsweatunderneath.ButtheyalsothenhaveacoldplungeoutsideinbasicallyanArcticlake.AndIknowthatthisisalsobecomingmorepopulartodo,thatcontrasttherapybetweenhotandcold.AndI'velookedattheresearchhereaswell,andIloveyourtakeonitbecauseitseemstomelikethere'sbenefitsofheatonitsown,there'sbenefitsofcoldonitsown,andthebenefitsareactuallysomewhatdifferentwhenyoucombinethem.SoI'dlovetohearifyouhaveanopiniononthis.Andthen,ifyouimplementthatatall,howdoyoudoit?

Ari:Yeah,that'sagreatquestion.Ithinkthere'saveryminimalamountofactualdata,asitstandsrightnowonthecontrastaspectofthings,asfarasgoingfromheattocold.Iknowthere'sbeensome...youknow,I'veseenvaryingkindsofspeculation,oneislike,"Hey,bothheatandcoldaretypesofhormesis,somaybeifyoualternatebackandforthwiththem,theywillamplifyeachother,"or,youknow,justtheactofsortofmakingyourbodycold,"nowyoucangetbackinthesauna,youcanhavemoretimeinthesauna.Andso,maybethatleadstohealthbenefits."I'vealsoseenspeculationintheotherdirectionthatsays,"Hey,maybeyou'restimulatingopposingpathwaysinthebody.Eventhoughthey'rebothtypesofhormesis,theydon'tstimulateexactlythesamemechanismsoit'spossiblemaybethere'ssomesortofoppositioneffect."I'llgiveyouoneexampleofthat.Exerciseactuallydoesnotseemtocombinethatwellwithcoldexposure.There'ssomeresearchshowingthatifyoudolikeicebathsrightafteryoudoaweighttrainingworkout,thatitcanactuallybluntsomeoftheadaptationsthatyou'regettingfromtheexercise.Inotherwords,itcanactuallymakeitso


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youdon'tgainquiteasmuchstrengthorasmuchmusclesizeinresponsetothatweighttrainingsession.Now,asfarastheheatandcoldcontrast,Ireallyhaven'tseenalotofdata,asfaraslikeactuallylookingathealthoutcomes.SomostlywhatI'veseenisspeculation.MypersonalopiniononitisthatIthinkitalmostcertainlyisagoodideaandisbeneficialtotheextentthatyoucandoitandyouhavethatoptionavailable.AndIknowyoudothat,Katie,soIabsolutelythinkitprobablyisagoodideaandwilleventuallybeshowntohavesomeuniquebenefits.Butasitstandsrightnow,I'mnotawareofanyresearchthathasreallylookedatthatin-depth.Haveyouseenmuchinthewayofthat,Katie?

Katie:Unfortunately,no.ThatwaskindofmytakeonitaswellasIthinkitseemslikethebenefit...and,inFinland,howtheyusethecoldiscertainlytobeabletostayintheheatlonger.Andtheycanlastacoupleofhourseven,theirheattolerantisveryhigh,especiallywhentheypunctuateitwithcold.Butitseemslikeitwouldbelogicalthattheywouldpotentiallyactivateopposingpathways,likeyoumentioned.SowhatIpersonallydo,onedayaweek,wedothecontrastjustbecauseit'sfunanditfeelsgreatbut,therestoftheweek,Iwilltypicallypickhotorcold.Somostdaysatsauna.Butthen,non-weighttrainingdays,Imightjustdocold.Figuringthatifthere'sanalternatingeffecttherethatI'dprefertoseparatethem.

Ari:Yeah,yeah.That'sinteresting.Yeah,likeIsaid,Ithinkitalmostcertainlywillleadtohealthbenefits,especiallyjustbyvirtueofthefactthatit'sprolongingtheamountoftimethatyou'regonnastayinthesauna.Soyeah,Ithinkit'sagoodidea.I'vedonealittlebitofit,Ihavekindofaveryghettosetuphere.Ihavetwodifferentsaunas,soIhavelikeasoloinfraredsaunathatgetsactuallyquitehot,it'suniqueintherealmofinfraredsaunasinthatitreallyheatsyouupveryeffectively,andthen,Ihaveatraditionaloutdoorbarrelsaunaaswell.SowhenIusemyoutdoorbarrelsauna,whichiswhatIusedthismorning,oftentimes,I'llgetoutmid-sessionandgoovertomybackyardgardenhose.Andrightnow,we'reinthemiddleofthewinter,soIjusttakeoutthegardenhoseandIjustgivemyselfashower.It'snotquitelikeanicebathbut,youknow,youdefinitelygettheeffect,andthen,Ihopbackinthesauna.SojustthefactthatIdoitmyself,atleastsometimes,tellsyouthatIthinkitprobablyhassomeuniquebenefits.

Katie:Definitely.Andwehave,ironically,theexactsamesetup.Wehaveatraditionalsaunaoutside,andthen,Ihaveapersonallikesolosaunainsidethat'sinfraredbutyourheadisout,whichIthinkdoesletyoustayinpotentiallyalotlonger.Andthat'stheoneI'llgoifIfeellikeI'mgonnagetsickorsomething,IwillgointhereforoveranhourandIwillactuallyseeanoticeableriseincorebodytemperature,sobasicallyinducingafever.Andthen,typically,Iwon'tgetsickafterthat.Butyeah,it'sinteresting.AndIknow,inourlastconversationinperson,Imentionedthistoyou.ButI'mdoingkindofalong-termcoupleyearstudyonthisbecauseyoualwayshearpeoplesaythatinfraredsaunashelpyoudetoxmoreandgetmoreBPAoutandheavymetals.Butthere'snotasinglestudyI'mawareofthatactuallyhaslookedatthis.SoI'vebeendoingblocksoftime,bothinthetraditionalone,andthen,intheinfraredone,andthen,takingsweatsamplesandtestingthem,soit'snotcertainlyanexactsciencebutI'mreallycuriousin,atleastmyownsituation,ifthat'sactuallytrue.SoIlovethatyouusebothaswell.

Ari:Yeah.SoIrememberyoutellingmethat,"I'mcurioustohearwhatyourresultshavebeen."Thereisactuallyonestudy,tomyknowledge,thathastestedtheconcentrationofvarioustoxinsinsweatfrompeopleininfraredsaunasversustraditionalsaunas.AndIactuallythink,ifIremembercorrectly,theyalsotestedjustsweatfrompeopledoingexerciseatnormalroomtemperature.Andwhattheyconcludedbasicallyisthatsweatissweat.Thereisno...sothattheclaimsthatyouoftenhearbyinfrared-saunaadvocatesthat,you


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know,sometimesyouhearthesewildclaimslike,"Oh,infraredsaunasleadtothebodyproducingsweatthat's20timesmoreconcentratedwithtoxins,"andthatstuffisabsolutelynotsupportedbytheexistingevidence,whichhasbasicallyshownthatsweatissweat.Andevensweatingfromexercise,ifyoudoexerciseintenselyandlongenoughtosweatalot,you'reprobablypurgingoutthesameamountoftoxinspersortofgramofsweat.Ithinkthebigdifferenceisthatmostpeoplewillsweatway,waymoreinsideofasaunathantheywillviaexercise.ButasfarasI'veseenintheactualscience,sweatissweat.

Katie:That'sagreatpoint.Andit'sanimportantpoint,somethingweshouldallbedoingoften,regardlessofwhetherit'sinthesaunaorexerciseorwhatevermethodworksbest.It'ssomethingimportanttodo,it'saverynaturalprocess.AndIwannaloopbackalittlebit.YoumentionedtheNrf2pathwayand,forpeoplewhoarenotfamiliar,canyoukindofjustgiveusaprimerofwhatthatisandwhataresomeotherthingswecandotokindofactivatethat?

Ari:Yeah.SoIactuallydon'tknowifIsaidtheNrf2pathwayspecifically,butyou'rerightthatIwasreferringtoit.Sobasicallywehavecertainsignalingpathwaysatthecellularlevel.There'salotofdifferentmechanismsthatarethoughttobeinvolved.Iactuallyhaveatextbook,abrand-newtextbookthatIjustgotonspecificallythetopicofhormesisandlongevity.Andit'sanamazingtextbook.Itbetterbe,for$200.Sothere'sawholebunchofdifferentsignalingcascadesandheat-shockproteinsandreactive-oxygenspecies.Andthere'smany,manyothersignalingpathwaysthatareinvolved.Butprobablythekeycentralmechanismthatreallymosthormesiscomesbacktoiswhat'scalledtheNrf2pathwayoralsocalledtheNrf2pathway.Andfundamentally,whatthat'sdoingisbasicallyit'sasensorofoxidativestress,it'sasensoroftheamountoffreeradicalsorreactive-oxygenspeciesthatarepresent.Andit'spickinguponthose,andthen,stimulatingasetofadaptations.

Somaybeletmestepbackforasecondandframethisinthecontextofmitochondria.Somitochondriaareourcellularenergygenerators.Weoftenlearnedinbiologyclasses,inhighschoolandcollege,thatthemitochondriaisthepowerhouseofthecell.Andso,welearnedthattherearethese...mostpeopleconceptualizethemasthesesortofmindlessenergygenerators.Well,itturnsoutthatthey'reactuallymuch,muchmorethanthat.Andalotofrecentresearch,injustthelastfiveyears,isreallypositioningmitochondriaaskeyenvironmentalsensorsthatareactuallyregulatinghowourbodyisrespondingtowhat'sgoingonintheenvironment.So,forexample,ifyouhavechronicstress,psychologicalstress,orifyouhavetoxinexposure,orifyouhaveleakygut,orifyouhavesleepdeprivation,allofthosethingsarenowbeingpickedupandsensedbyyourmitochondria.

And,inresponsetothat,yourmitochondrianowdecidewhetherthebodyshouldgomoreinto,youknow,sortofenergyproductionmode,whichisifthemitochondriaaredetermining,"Hey,thisenvironment'ssafe.We'renotunderthreatofattack.Let'skeeppumpingoutlotsofenergy,"ortoshiftmoreintodefensemodewheretheyaredeciding,"Hey,there'sthreatspresent,there'stoxins,there'sstress,there'sinfections,there's..."youknow,whateverkindofstressor,"we'repickingthatup.There'sinflammation,there'sapoordiet,there'saleakygut,there'slipopolysaccharideleakingintotheblood,"mitochondriaareactuallydetectingthepresenceofthosethings,andthendeciding,"Oh,we'reinanunsafeenvironment.We'reunderattack.Sonowlet'sshiftoutoftheenergy-productionmodeintodefensemode."Andthen,theyactuallyinitiateasetofcascadesthat,forexample,effectimmuneactivationandinflammationandmany,manyotherthings.


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Now,ifyoucanconceptualizethis,IwishthatIcouldillustratethisvisuallyforeveryonebut...basically,wheneverthereisanytypeofstressstressorpresent,whetherit'spsychologicalstressortoxinsoranyoftheotherthingsIjustmentioned,thatultimatelygetstranslatedinto,atthemitochondriallevel,increasedproductionofreactive-oxygenspecies.Okay?Eveninthecaseofexercise,partofwhatyou'redoingwithexerciseisyou'retaxing,you'reputtingabigloadonyourmitochondriatoproducelotsofenergytopowerthisintensephysicalmovement.So,inthatprocess,themitochondriaactuallyproducelotsmorefreeradicals.Now,inresponsetothat,whenthere'sapresenceofthatkindofthing,ofastressorthat'stranslatedintoincreasedproductionoffreeradicalsorreactiveoxygenspeciesatthemitochondriallevel,thatactuallystimulatestheNrf2pathway.WhichthentranslatesintotheARE,theantioxidantresponseelement,andbasicallyactsasasignalforthemitochondriatobuilduptheirinternalantioxidant-defensesystemandwhichultimatelymakesthemmoreresistanttoanyfutureexposureofreactiveoxygenspecies.

Atthesametime,it'salsosendingsignalsforthemitochondriatoactuallygrowbiggerandstrongerandeven,insomecases,tostimulate,what'scalled,mitochondrialbiogenesis,whichisthecreationofnewmitochondriafromscratch.Now,letme...hopefully,youcanpicturethisbutbasicallythebiggerandstrongeryourmitochondriaareandthemoreofthemthatyouhaveandthemorebuiltupyourAREis,thatantioxidantresponseelement,andallthreeofthosethingsreallygotogether,themorerobustthatwholesystemis,themoreresilientyouwillbetoanykindofexposuretoanystress.Andwhatthatmeansis,ultimately,youcanhandleexposurestoexercise,orsauna,orthingsliketoxins,orthingslike,youknow,occasionallyeatingsomebadfoods,or,youknow,alittlebitofsleepdeprivation,oralittlebitofpsychologicalstress,relationshipstress,workstress,anythinglikethat,thatyoucanhandlethosethingsandthatyourmitochondriaareabletotoleratethatstressload,andthen,returntohomeostasis,adapttoitsuccessfully,andmaintainhealth.

Ontheotherhand,ifyouhaveweakmitochondria,ifyoudon'thavemanyofthem,iftheonesthataretherearedysfunctionalandfragileandtheAREisnotwellbuiltup,isnotveryrobust,nowyoumayhaveexposurestothingsliketoxins,orstress,orsleepdeprivation,orsomethinglikethat,andnowitactuallyoverwhelmsthesystem.Themitochondriacan'thandlethatstressload,andso,theyactuallybasicallyshutdown,theygooutofenergymodeintodefensemodeandtheyswitchon.Basicallyfatigueiswhatyou'regoingtofeelinresponsetothat.Andbytheway,thiswholeprocessthatIjustoutlinedisreallythecenterofwhypeoplehavechronicfatigue.Soitswitchesonthatdefensemode,andthen,themitochondriaarebasicallyjustthrowingofflotsoffreeradicalsandthey'renotabletomaintainenergymode.

Soatthecoreofthiswholesequenceofevents,andbasicallyonthebigpicture,howenergeticyouareandhowresilientyouareand,ultimately,actuallythisextendsintolongevityandresistancetodisease,morebroadly,but,ultimately,thatdependsonhowbig,strong,androbustyourmitochondriaareandhowmanyofthemthereareandhowrobustthatantioxidantresponseelementis.Andalotofthatactuallycomesdowntohowwellyouactuallybuiltthatsystemupthroughregularexposuretohormeticstressors.

Katie:Thatmakessense.That'soneofthebestexplanationsI'veheard.Andit'saperfectspringboardtomynextquestionbecauseIhaveafeelingthere'salink.Ihearfromalotofreadersandlistenerswhostrugglewithanxietyordepression,andIhavealotofpersonalfriendswhoalsostrugglewiththose,andit'snotsomethingI'vegonethroughpersonallysoIdon'thaveanyfirst-handexperiencetoshare,butI'mcuriousifyouareseeinganythinginthedataandtheresearchrightnow,onalinkheretoanxietyanddepressionorif


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thereareotherfactorsthatyou'reseeingintheresearch,thatcouldbeimportantforpeoplewhoaregoingthroughthat?

Ari:Yeah.Greatquestion.Sothere'ssomereallyamazingresearchthathasjustcomeoutreallyinthelasttwoyears.Ididadeepdiveintothisrecently,Isawafewstudiescomeout,overthelastfewyears,andthen,Ijustwent,prettyrecently,justonadeepdivetokindalookandseewhat'scomeoutonthattopic,specificallyinrelationshiptomitochondrialhealth.Andthere'sbeenanamazingamountofresearch,justinthelastcoupleyears,showingthatmitochondrialdysfunctionisreallyakeyplayerinalotofbrain-relatedsymptoms.Andthere'safieldthat'semergednowcalledmitochondrialpsycho-biology,andit'sbasicallyindicatingthatmitochondriaareatthisinterfaceofsortofmindandbody.They'reattheinterfaceofstress,andImentionedabunchofkindsofstressorsaminuteago,butevenpsychologicalstressandwhatthebodyisdoinginresponsetostress.

AccordingtoDougWallace,he'sbeenoneoftheworld'stopresearchersinmitochondriafor,Ithink,decadesatthispoint,hesaid...thisisalmostadirectquote,ifIcanrememberit...buthesaidbasically,"MitochondrialDNAisessentiallythemostsensitivethinginyourbody."Andhere'swhythat'simportant.SotherewasarecentstudydonebyMartinPicardandDouglasWallace,andafewotherpeople,wheretheybasicallyaskedpeopleto...itwassomethingtotheeffectoflike,"Giveafive-minutespeechdefendingyourselfbecause,youknow,thescenarioisthatyou'vejustbeenpersonallyattacked,andyourcharacterhasbeenpersonallyattacked,andyou'vebeenaccusedofdoingallthesehorriblethings,andnowyouhavetogiveafive-minutespeechtodefendyourcharacterandtodefendyourselfagainstallofthese,youknow,falseclaimsthathavebeenmadeagainstyou."

Andso,theydidthestudyIthinkwithlike50people,andthen,theymeasuredmitochondrialDNAinthebloodstreamliterallywithinminutesofdoingthisspeech.SothepsychologicalstressofthatcausedmitochondriatoreactinsuchawaythattheyactuallytheypumpedouttheDNAthat'scontainedinsideofthemitochondria,themitochondriagotsostressedthatitactuallyreleasedtheDNAoutofthecellandintothebloodstream.Now,thatisoneofthekeysignalingmoleculesthatactuallysignalstoothercellsinthebody,"Hey,we'reunsafe.Weneedtoshiftintostressmode."Okay?So,youknow,peopleoftenthinkoftheadrenalsorcortisolasbeingthestressresponsesystem,ortheHPAaxis.Well,what'supstreamofthat?Evenupstreamofthatyouhavethingslike,forexample,theamygdalaandthelimbicsystem.Butupstreamofeventhat,youhavemoleculesthatarebeingcirculatedinsuchawaythatthatthey'retriggeringthewholesystemtoenterintoasortofdefensemodeordangermodeorstressmodeyoucanconceptualizeitas.

Now,sojustinthelastcoupleofyears,therewasawholebunchofresearchnowcomingoutthat,first,there'sacouplethings.Sooneisthatalotofthesebrain-relatedconditions,thatweareoftenusedtoconceptualizingasseparate,areprobablynotreallyseparate.So,forexample,brainfog,depression,anxiety,psychiatricdisorderslikeschizophrenia,bipolardisorder,many,manyotherconditions,evenneurodegenerativediseases,there'slinks,we'rediscoveringthatthere'slinksbetweenallofthesethingsandthattheyallreallycomedowntothesamecentralmechanisms.Andso,whatdoImeanbythere'slinks?Well,forexample,ifyouhavedepressionduringyourlifetime,yourriskofneurodegenerativediseasegoesupdramatically.Ifyouhaveautism,yourriskofneurodegenerativediseasegoesupdramatically.Ifyouhave,youknow,anxiety,yourriskof,youknow,otherbrain-relatedsymptomsgoesupdramatically.Ifyouhavechronic-fatiguesyndrome,yourriskofpsychiatricdisordersordepressiongoesupdramatically.Sothere'sallthese


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weirdlinks,right,wherehavingoneofthesethingsleadstoamuchhigherprobabilityofhavingothersofthesebrain-relatedsymptoms.

So,and,youknow,inmyfield,it'softenthecasethatsomebodywithseriouschronicfatiguedoesn'tjusthavechronicfatigue,theyalsohavebrainfog,theyalsohavebrain-relatedfatigue,whichisafterdoingmentally-demandingtaskstheyfeelexhaustedandcan'tfocusorconcentrateandjustsortofwannasleep,it'sliketheirbrainshutsdown,ortheyhavedepressionandanxiety.Sothesebrain-relatedsymptomsarebasicallyclusteringtogether,they'rerelated.Andthereasonwhyisthattheyallcomebacktosomeofthesamecentralmechanismsatthelevelofthebrain.Oneismitochondrialdysfunction,Ithinkthat'sthebiggestone.There'salsoneuroinflammation,andthen,there'salsoacoupleofotherthings,microglialactivationthat'ssortofliketheimmunesystemofyourbrainand,inresponsetocertaintoxins,theycanswitchon,andthen...orstressors,theycanswitchon,andthen,startproducinglotsofinflammatorycompound.

Soallthesethingsreallytietogether,mitochondrialdysfunction,neuroinflammation,microglialactivation.Andifyoulookthisup,youknow,forexample,lookupmitochondrial-dysfunctiondepression,mitochondrial-dysfunctionpsychiatricdisorders,mitochondrial-dysfunctionneurodegenerativediseases,you'llfindresearchnowemergingonallofthosethingsbecausethey'reallcomingbacktothat.SoIbelievethat,bytakingcareofyourmitochondria,youwillhaveahugeimpacton,notjust,forexample,likeyourenergylevels,butyou'llhaveahugeimpactonpreventingdepression,anxiety,brainfog,brainfatigue,chronicfatiguesyndrome,neurodegenerativedisease,depression,anxiety,psychiatricdisorders.Imean,allofthosethingsarerelatedtothemitochondrialfunctionandlevelsofinflammationinthebrain.

OneotherthingI'llmention,sinceIdidn'treallyexplainthisindepth,asIwastalkingaboutthatNrf2pathwayandARE,partofthatantioxidant-responseelementandpartofstimulatingthatpathwayoftheNrf2pathwayviahormesisisnotjustanantioxidantdefensesystembutit'sactuallyananti-inflammatorydefensesystemaswell.There'sanotherpathwaythatsortofopposestheNrf2pathwayandit'scalledtheNF-kappaBpathway,andit'saverystrongpro-inflammatorypathway.Well,themorethatyoucanactivateNrf2,themorethatyoutendtoshutdowntheNF-kappaB,thatpro-inflammatorypathway.So,inotherwords,tosortoftieeverythingtogetherthatIjustsaid,hormesisstimulatesthisNrf2pathwayandtheARE,itopposesoxidativestressfromfreeradicalsandopposeschronicinflammationandmakesyourmitochondriabigger,stronger,andmoreofthemandmakesthatwholesystemmorerobustsothatit'sconstantlyabletofightagainstoxidativestressandneuroinflammationandmitochondrialdysfunction,whicharethethingsthatareunderlying,notonlychronicfatigue,butalsothingslikedepressionandanxietyandevensomeofthemoreseriousneurodegenerativediseases.

Katie:Ilovethatthatcamefullcircleandtiedbackintohormesisandsaunauseandexercise.Anditmakesperfectsenseinlightofyourexplanationwhywedoseethestudiesaboutexercisereducingdepressionandanxiety,itmakescompletesense.

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thatisfreeofscars!Ilovethemaskanduseitacoupletimesaweek,andoftenusethegoldserumatnighttonourishmyskinwhileIsleep.Alloftheirproductshavesupercleaningredientsandtheyreallywork!Andyisabsolutelydedicatedtocreatingthehighestqualityproductspossibleanditshows.Checkthemoutatalituranaturals.com/wellnessmamaandusetheDiscountcode"wellness"toget20%off.

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Katie:Forpeoplewhoareinthatrightnowandtryingtoworkthroughdepressionoranxiety,arethereotherformsofhormesisthattheycanlookatthatarealsohelpful,orevenothersupplementalthingstheycandothatseemtobebackedbytheresearchrightnow?

Ari:Yeah,greatquestion.So,firstofall,Imentionedthatthere'sastudy,afairlyrecentstudy,byaresearchernamedCharlesRaisonwhohasbeenlookingintospecificallythelinkbetweeninflammationanddepression.Andalso,hehasauniqueinterestinsaunauseasatreatmentfordepression.They'vedoneastudywhichhasshownthat...Iforgetexactlyhowmanysaunasessionstheydid,butIthinkjustsaunauseforafewweekshadvery,verylong-lastingantidepressantactivitythatwasactuallyevenmoreeffectivethanantidepressantpharmaceuticalslikeProzac.Soahandfulofsaunasessionscanbeanamazingantidepressant.There'ssomeresearch,it'sverylimitedresearch,oncoldexposureforfightingdepression.Exercisecertainlyisabigone.Fasting,Idon'tknowifthere'smuchresearchthere,fastingisanothertypebeforehormesis,Idon'tknowifthere'smuchresearchonthatspecificallyasitrelatestodepressionandanxiety.

Butcertainlymany,manyphytonutrients,which,bytheway,Ishouldalsomention,arewhat'scategorizedaszenohormeticphytochemicals.They'realsoatypeofpro-oxidant,thesethingsareoftenconceptualizedasantioxidants.Inmostcases,they'renotantioxidants,they'reactuallypro-oxidantsthatstimulatetheNrf2pathwayandactuallyturninto,ultimately,anantioxidanteffectbybuildingupthatinternalcellularantioxidantresponsesystem.SothingslikeAstaxanthinandlion'smanemushroomshavedefinitelyanti-depressiveandanti-anxietyeffects.Andtherearecertainlyanumberofothersubstancesthatarepotentiallyveryusefulforthat.Schisandraandcoffee-fruitextractboostsbrain-derivedneurotrophicfactorandBacopa.Youknow,there'sanumberofotherphytonutrientsthatmayhavebenefitsbutcertainly,Iwouldsay,exerciseandsaunauseareamazinghormeticantidepressants.

Katie:Gotit.I'dalsolovetohearyourtake,becauseIknowsomethingthatisoftenrecommendedforpeoplestrugglingwithanxietyespeciallyistouseCBD.SoI'mcuriousifyourtakeonalltherecentresearch,andmainlyarticlesI'mseeingacrossallsitesontheendocannabinoidsystemandCBDinallofitsvariousforms,andwhatyouthinkistherightapproachthere.


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Ari:Yeah.That'sagreatquestion.SoCBDissortofamixedbagofresearch,asitstandsrightnow.Ithinkthat,overall,itisdefinitelyabeneficialcompoundandthere'ssomeresearchthathasshownreallyprofoundbenefits.Andthere'sotherresearchthathasn'tshownamazingbenefits,like,forexample,anxiety.I'veseensomeresearchshowingthatlong-termuseofCBDdidn'treallyhavemuchofaneffectatallonanxietybutI'vealsoseenananimalstudyrecentlythatsuggestedthatCBDwasaverypotentantidepressant.There'sdefinitelysomeresearchthattheendocannabinoidsystemisakey,keyplayerinourbody'sabilitytoregulatestressandturnonandoffstress.Andspecifically,thekeypartwouldbetoturnoffstress,tolikehelpshutthatsystemdownoncethebody'sbeeninstressmode,tohelpreregulateitbackintoanon-stressedstate.

SoIdothinkthatthehealthofyourendocannabinoidsystemisextremelyimportant.Ithinkit'samistake,overall,to...youknow,that'skindofgoingonrightnowwherepeopleare,Iwouldsay,almostconceptualizingtheendocannabinoidsystemassynonymouswithCBDandsortoflike,"Hey,yourendocannabinoidsystemisreallyimportantsotakeCBD."AndIthinkit'salotmorecomplexthanthat,IthinkCBDisonepotentiallyusefulcompoundbutthereareothercompoundsthatalsohaveareallyuniquebenefitonbalancingandbuildingourendocannabinoidsystem.AndI'llmentionafewthingshere.Sooneisthatchronicstressofreallyanykindwillabsolutelywipeoutyourendocannabinoidsystem.Sohavingthelifestylehabitsof,whatIcall,rechargerituals,whicharebasicallyjustritualsthatarebuiltintoyourdaythatarepowerfulwaysofde-stressingyoursystem.Oneexampleofthatwouldbesomethinglikemeditation,anotherexampleofthatwouldbefoamrollingormassageorself-myofascialrelease.Andthosethingscanbelayered,incertainways,tomakethebenefitsevenmoreprofound.Alsothingsofstimulatingthevagusnerve,sohummingorsingingorgargling,thingslikethat,justswitchonyourvagusnerve,Ithinkthatisextremelyimportanttogetyourbodyoutofchronicstress.Andthat'scriticaltopreservingthehealthofyourendofyourendocannabinoidsystem.

There'salsosomeotherthingsthatI'llmention.Sogreens,thisisnotacommonlytalkedaboutthing,butjustgreenleafysubstancesarerichinacompoundcalledbeta-caryophyllene.Andbeta-caryophylleneisaphytocannabinoidthathaspowerfulbalancingeffectsontheendocannabinoidsystemofourbodies.Pterostilbeneisanothercompoundthat'sfoundinthingslikeblueberriesandmulberriesand,toasmallerextent,inthingslikealmondsandgrapes.Also,anotherfoodsubstancethathasapowerfuleffectonbalancingourendocannabinoidsystem,avoidingalcoholisextremelyimportant.Exerciseisanothergreatwaytobuildtheendocannabinoidsystem.Andthen,there'sanumberofothercompoundsthatcanalsostimulatetheendocannabinoidsystem.Sosaffronisone,nutmeg,clove,magnoliaextracts,cacaoisanothergreatonethatinhibitstheenzymesthatbreakdownsomeoftheendocannabinoids,andacompoundcalledPEA,orpalmitoylethanolamide,alsoisanothergreatsubstance.Andthen,turmeric,youknow,commonoldturmericandcurcumin,which,I'msure,everybodyhasheardaboutbefore,actuallyhelpsbalancetheendocannabinoidssystem.

Oh,andonemorethatI'llmentionissunbathing.There'ssomeresearchindicatingthatsunbathingisprobablyareallygoodthingfortheendocannabinoidssystemaswell.Soanyway,Ijustgaveyouawholelistofstuff,butIthinkCBDisoneusefulcomponentofhelpingtorebuildandbalancetheendocannabinoidsystembutIthinkalltheotherthingsIjustmentionedarealsoreallyimportant.

Katie:IagreeandIlovethat.AndIhopewehavetimeforonemorequestionbecauseyoumentionedsunexposure.Andwhenthisairs,we'llbegettingclosetosunnierdaysandmorepotentialforsunexposure,andI


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knowthisisanotherareathatyouhavedonealotofresearchandyoutakeaveryevidence-basedapproach.Soifyoucould,justgiveusabriefoverviewaboutsunexposure.BecauseIknowsungetssovilifiedrightnow,peoplearesoafraidofthesun.AndIpersonallyamnot,andIknowthatyou'renoteither,butIwouldlovetohearyouexplainwhy.

Ari:Yeah.Well,it'sabigtopic,thisissomethingthatwecouldtalkaboutforhours.Andit'salsoacontroversialonebecause,youknow,youcangoseeadermatologistandthey'llstillsay,youknow,"Hey,stayoutofthesun.Thesunisbadbecause,youknow,ifyougetsunburned,itcanincreaseyourriskofskincancer."Thatpartistrue.Ifyougetsunburnedregularly,it'sdefinitelyabigriskfactorforskincancer.SoIhighlyrecommendnotgettingsunburnedfrequently.However,thepartthatthey'releavingoutisthattherearemassivelinksbetweenregularsunexposureandahugearrayofotherhealthbenefits,includingprotectiveeffectsonmany,many,manyothertypesofcancers,muchmoreserioustypesofcancers.

Sotheneteffecthere...letmeactuallytellyouaboutonestudyrecentlywheretheyfollowedagroup,thiswasahugestudywheretheyfollowedsomethinglike,Ithinkitwaslike15,000or20,000women,overthecourseof15years,andIthinkitwasinSwedenandIthinkthiscameoutin2016.Andbasicallywhattheyshowedisthat,overthelongrun,avoidingsunexposureisasbigofariskfactortoyourhealthassmokingapackofcigarettesaday.Sothat'sawaytoconceptualizehowimportantsunexposurereallyisandwhetherornotsunexposureagoodorbadthing.Soyes,gettingsunburnedregularly,sunburned,notsunexposure,willincreaseyourriskofskincancer.That'ssomethingtoavoidforsure.Butavoidingsunexposurewilldramaticallyincreaseyourriskformany,manyothertypesofcancer,neurodegenerativediseases,autoimmunediseases,manyothertypesofdiseasesandbasicallyleadtoyoursystemfunctioninginawaythatisnothealthy.

SooneoftheotherbigsortofmythsaroundsunexposureisthatpeoplethinkthesunandvitaminDpillsareequivalent.VitaminDpillsarenotequivalenttosunexposure.WegetmanymorebenefitsfromthesunthanjustvitaminD.AndthetypeofvitaminDthatwecanmakeinourbodyisn'teventhesameaswhatwecangetfromoralvitaminD.SobeyondjustvitaminDexposure,there'smanyothercompounds,forexample,we'restimulatingwhat'scalledthemelanocortinsystem,andthatplaysaroleinregulatingourmetabolismandappetite.Wearestimulatingtheproductionofsomethingcalledcholesterolsulfate,whichgetsintoourbloodstreamandhelpsourblooddeliveroxygentoourtissuesmoreeffectively.Wealsohavefarinfraredenergy,whichwealreadytalkedabout,whichhelpsstimulatesweatinganddetoxification,thathasitsownbenefits.Italsostimulatesthedilationofbloodvesselsandhelpsdeliveroxygentoyourperiphery.

So,youknow,oftentimespeoplewilltalkabouthavingcoldhandsandfeetchronically,well,ifyoujustshiftedfromworkingindoorstoworkingoutdoorsandyouhadsomesunshiningonyourskin,youwouldfindthatyourbloodcirculationtoyourperipherychangesdramaticallywithinabout15or20minutesandyouprobablywon'tfeelthatyouhavepoorcirculationtoyourhandsandfeetanymore.Theinterestingthingaboutthatisthathumansaremeanttobe...youknow,we'vespentprettymuch99.999%ofourevolutionlivingmostlyoutdoorliveswhereweweregettingplentyofmovementandsunexposureonourbodies.Andthataffectshowwellourbodyisabletocirculateanddeliverbloodtotheperiphery.

Inaddition,wearealsoaffectingthecircadianrhythm.Sowehavelightenteringthroughoureyesandimpactingonthesuprachiasmaticnucleusofourbrain,whichisthebasicallyourbody's24-hourbiological


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clockthatregulatesallkindsofdifferentneurotransmittersandhormones.Andthataffectourenergylevels,oursleepcycle,ourmood,andsoon.There'sresearchshowingthatsunlighthasahugeeffectonmanyneurotransmitters.Butjustlookatserotoninanddopaminewhichplayabigroleinthingslikemotivation,thingslikedepressionandanxiety.Yeah,sunlighthasanenormouseffectonyourmoodbymodulatingyourneurotransmitters.

Andthen,thesubjectwhichIwroteabookon,lastyear,called"TheUltimateGuidetoRedLightTherapy,"sunlightalsocontainsredandnear-infraredlightwhichactuallypenetrateintoourbodiesandstimulateourmitochondriatoproducemoreenergy.Andtheystimulateallkindsofothersignalingcascadesthathelpthehealingoftissues,thathelpalterfatmetabolism,that...basicallyitjuststimulatessortofenergyproductionandhealingprocesses,itdependsonthespecifictissuethatwe'retalkingabout.Butthere'sresearchonredandnear-infraredlighttherapyinthecontextoftreatingdepression,anxiety,neurodegenerativediseases,speedingupfatloss,increasingmusclerecovery,improvingstrength,stimulatingthehealingofscratchesandtendinitisandcertainskinwounds,andbonehealing.Allkindsofdifferentbenefitstherebecauseit'sstimulatingthemitochondriatoproducemoreenergyeffectivelyandit'sstimulatingvarioussignalingcascadesthatbasicallyhelpinthehealingofthosetissues.

AndIshouldalsomention,tyingthisbackintowhatwetalkedaboutearlier,redandnear-infraredlightactuallyalsoworkasatypeofhormeticstressor.Theyactonyourmitochondriaandcreateatransientburstofreactiveoxygenspecies,whichalsodoesalotofthosesamethingsthatwetalkedaboutearlier.Ithelpsbuildyourmitochondriabiggerandstrongerandmakesthatantioxidant-responseelementmorerobust.Soanyway,that'sthequickfive-minutesummary.ButsunlightisnotsomethingthatyoucanreplacewithavitaminDpill.Sunlighthasanenormousarrayofbenefitstohormonesandneurotransmittersandmitochondriathatyoucan'treallyreplicatebyjustavitaminDsupplement.

Katie:Greatexplanation.Andlikealways,Icouldgoonforacouplemorehoursgoingdeeponthesetopicswithyou.AndI'vesaidbefore,you'reoneofthepeopleItrulyrespectthemostinourindustryandyourresearchisalwaysextremelythorough.AndIalwaysreallyappreciateyourinputandopinion,andIcannotoverstatehowgratefulIamforyourtimetoday.We'regonnahaveto,hopefully,doanotherroundeventuallybecauseIhavesomanymorequestionsIwouldlovetoaskyou.

Ari:Iwouldlovethat.Andthankyousomuchforthekindwords,thefeelingisabsolutelymutual.IlovehangingoutwithyouandIlovetheworkyouaredoing.

Katie:Thankyousomuch.Andthanks,ofcourse,toallofyouforlisteningandsharingyourmostvaluableasset,yourtime,withustoday.We'resogratefulforyouandIhopethatyouwilljoinmeagainonthenextepisodeof"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

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Episode 245: Ari Whitten on Fighting Fatigue and …...Ari Whitten is a best-selling author, a nutrition and lifestyle expert and the founder of The Energy Blueprint. And he's also