Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)

7/29/2019 Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)

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retire to the downstairs sitting room o Mailer’s house by the ocean. We sat on

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walks with two canes. He is an old prince o duality, so it comes as no surprise

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interview

Norman Mailer

Te Art of Fiction No. 193



Norman Mailer in 2006.




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the side and there I met Philip Roth. Sometimes I have to go into a telephone

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were twisting in time to Mailer’s thoughts. He uses his hands like a lmmaker

or a boxing coach, orever raming the idea o movement. But with the stormcg d h t k Cpt Ahb, tug ut th pt

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t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 47

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bgh h dkss.

—Andrew O’Hagan

interviewer

Dgh McDd c cd Pc “Eghh S by h S.”

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norman mailer

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love with the place. Tere was a great ear o the Nazis landing suddenly on the

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interviewer

Ad yu sd Te Naked and the Dead hbus?

mailer

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interviewer

Yu hd s?

mailer

I ys k hug ub s b I s. I d d

c s d hk bu d bd. N ks h y



A manuscript page fom T Cs h Fs by Norman Mailer.




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Dead , bcus I s yug d s u d u h . I dd’ y

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pgs h I s h h su.

interviewer

Ad yu k s gd?

mailer

I d I hugh s c, d h h I’d hk, Oh,

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Teodore Dreiser. We agreed more or less, didn’t we, that style was not his orte

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tendency would be Zola, whose style is reasonably decent, nothing remarkable,

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interviewer

It may be argued, in your case, that a great subject has a tendency to unlock

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mailer

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you. Tere’s absolutely nothing to simplicity, and I’m going to prove it with

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s h .

One o my basic notions or a long , long time is that there is this mysterious

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We are mountaineers, and the question is, Which ace do you attack? Dierent

aces call or dierent approaches, and some demand a knotty and convoluted

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interviewer

L’s g Hgy scd. Is pssb h shd g-

h g sc hu g ?

mailer

Yes, and he did it more than anyone ever had beore or aer. But he’s a trap. I

you’re not careul you end up writing like him. It’s very dangerous to write like

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s—h ds’ Hgy hs yuh.




interviewer

Do you remember where you were when you heard Hemingway had killed

hs?

mailer I b y . I s h J Cpb Mxc d s

beore we got married. I was truly aghast. A certain part o me has never really

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interviewer

Dd cps yu ss hs cug?

mailer

I htd t thk tht h dth ght d tht. I c up th th:

Hemingway had learned early in lie that the closer he came to daring death the

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h s h Hgy cd sucd.

interviewer

Mgh b sd, y , h g s s s-h?

mailer

It u yu pudy. T’ py yu yu h bk,

hch s hy s c b s bsuy gd cu ccss h hy

eel are unair. We eel we have killed ourselves once writing the book, and now

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you’re writing a good novel then you’re being an explorer—you’re getting into

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worth writing a novel unless you’re tackling something where your chances o

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h y cu-d-sc.

interviewer

L’s k bu g, gg d, d ’s b pcs. H ds h

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dgg ’s y h h d h h bs ys bhd .

mailer

Well, I think i you get old and you’re not ull o objectivity you’re in trouble.

Te thing that makes old age powerul is objectivity. I you say to yoursel, My

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s h s , d s h yu d’ h y g. As yu g

older, there’s no reason why you can’t be wiser as a novelist than you ever werebeore. You should know more about human nature every year o your lie. Do

you write about it quite as well or as brilliantly as you once did? No, not quite.

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interviewer

Why?

mailer I thk t’ p tt b dg d thg . T b

deteriorates. Why can’t an old car do certain things a new car can do? You have

to take that or granted. You wouldn’t beat on an old car and say, You betrayed

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interviewer

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mailer

H sd h d’ y?

interviewer

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g h.

mailer

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interviewer

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mailer

Wh I s yug s us . I’s h s h s

many good writers in America—most o our literature had not yet been writ-

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every seven to ten minutes, which will shatter any concentration. Kids watch

television and lose all interest in sustained narrative. As a novelist, I really eel

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interviewer

Ws h h h cuy kd ss h uh?

mailer

T p s y dy, bck h y s, uch important to me than movie stars. Movie stars were oddities, curiosities. Actors

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they enter the priesthood, but that was the way I elt as a novelist—vocational.

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interviewer

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mailer

Ms cy. I hk ub us usd d y d sxy ys

ago o doing just that—writing the great American novel. I will say, that dream

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interviewer

Tere’s a story Shelley Winters told about you. Te way I heard it, she came

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American ragedy. Sh bdy d b cs s h cy g Gg

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Mgy C. A s sy, h.

mailer Ad bsuy u.

interviewer

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mailer

W, ’d k ch th. Shy cd up dy. Sh hy-

c. Sh sd, I h g s Gg Ss . I hs dys sh

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serious about acting but she played silly blonds in silly movies, and she wanted

shg b.

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hundred pages, I can’t read it by tomorrow, and so orth. So I said, All right, I’ll

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good things will come o it. So I get there and she’s got a bad case o hives, and

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the middle, and I showed her about two hundred and y pages in the middle.

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can play this role, and what you want to remember is, she’s a working-class girl

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sx h s gg b h dy. Ad I spk y , h ghustones o a husband who’s been out trying to gallivant and has ailed. And then,

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you know, you’re not the dummy I thought you were. So she got the role. Once

sh’d b kg ks, sh cd g d sd, N,

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bu c s d h’s gg d .

interviewer

Much th tv’ t ccd th th qut tv.

What made you write this? What caused you to marry her? How did you come

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h yu , Te Castle in the Forest , s ks shudd h qus-

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into a personication o evil? Te amily incest? Te example o the bees? Te

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mailer

N h. N h b.

interviewer

Hd . Yu ds’ ? Bu h x s h qus yu g h bk?

mailer

Oh, y tv pt htv tv I gv Ht. I ht t

when writers give psychological explanations that pretend to answer questions

d d’.

interviewer

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mailer

W, thy ctbutg ct. But y t th bk th

beginning was to have a devil narrating it. Tere’s a long ri in the novel about

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in God, let alone the devil. And my eeling is that there’s no better explanation H h h h s spd by h d, s Jsus Chs s spd

by Gd. I pp b h Jsus Chs s h s Gd h I d’

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xp. T’s h.

interviewer

Do you stand with Milton and with Paradise Lost in the understanding that

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mailer

Oh yh, h h bs s. I y d b h h’s cs-

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hate the thought today, because we live in a technological time where human

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h d.

interviewer

D yu b Gd?

mailer

Oh, cus I d. Bu I d’ I b Gd s g, s h

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implicit in the notion that i you can get people araid o a powerul orce who

will punish them i they don’t do the right thing, then the agents o that orce

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interviewer S s hs xs Gd?

mailer

Absolutely. Doesn’t know how it’s going to turn out, doesn’t know whether

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d th pt thy d’t hv t y but t. But we’re going to go with rank speculations, absolutely errant speculations, illegal

spcus, I’d sy h h d s pbby s h s cuc

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hs ups Gd h hd s huy.

interviewer

A large number o Americans today hold the notion that God and the devil

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mailer

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uck h yu dd’ h?

interviewer

A gc, yb.

mailer

N. A . Ad I hk h’s h s.

interviewer

I Te Castle in the Forest , I d yu ’ ysyg h pcss by

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at the moment o his conception. Tat would be my argument with the book:

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cs h ds, h sucu h s.

mailer

Yu c gu h. H s, h, kd: h’s xp-t h. St t cphb t. W c d

S’s bgphy, c sudy h Bshk , c sudy h

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G u.

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I’m going to write. Who knows i I’ll be around long enough to write it, but i

I can, Hitler will emerge as the devil’s choice. By the end o Te Castle, he’s one

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hs s h h c hugh. Why? Bcus h xdy cd-

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tht’ ht th xt bk gt t. H th cppy kd d up bg hs phus.

interviewer

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h py s h c .

mailer

Yh.

interviewer

W v th th t. T Ax Ev. T Gt St. T Ev

Ep.

mailer

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more evil than the other? Who knows. We’re both immensely evil, we’re both

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be more interesting than himsel. And ditto or the mother. And in that sense

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Md h s hd b ks ss .

interviewer

Yu b c. S h yu cg bck s, N?




mailer

W, I ’ g, gh? I’ h g . Ad y y s

called. I go in and there’s a monitoring angel who says, Mr. Mailer, we’re very

glad to meet you. We’ve been looking orward to your arrival. Let me tell you

the good news, absolutely good news, is you’ve been passed or reincarnation.I sy, Oh hk yu, ys, I y dd’ g pc. Ad

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cckch h bck.

interviewer N bd.

mailer

Reincarnation is the best evidence o God’s sense o wit and judgment. God,

I p, s g. H s c, d cs h judg.

interviewer

W t Gy G’ b ct tht ty ttctd yu h?

mailer

Oh yh. Bu h hugh hs b h ys. I 1954, h I s

a very proud atheist, very proud, very sure o mysel, very sure that God had to

be dispensed with, I went out to visit James Jones in Illinois. He started talking

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ever met, real Midwestern. He was absolutely solid in his sense o the real and

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precisely with the difculties o reality. He was a great believer in the real, and

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S I hd h h k h x ys b y d

y hd.

interviewer

D yu h ds?

mailer

N, I d’. I pu hs ds h k.

interviewer

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quy yu pu.

mailer

T pu s s. T gd s uch h I .

interviewer L’s pus h pu. T c s h bg

up. One is Infamous, Douglas McGrath’s movie about ruman Capote. Tere’s

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One o them asks him i it isn’t rightening to go into the cell with the Clutter

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mailer I you’ve been in ve—say, ve—ghts in your lie, the public sees it as y

ghs hudd d y.

interviewer

And in the other movie, Factory Girl , about Edie Sedgwick, there’s a scene in

which Andy Warhol is sitting in a conessional box and he’s saying to the priest,

“I hv th d d N M kd up d puchd h th

sch, d I cud hk s, W N M puch ?”




mailer

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interviewer

A yu sck ?

mailer

Oh, I’ byd bg sck , yu k. Yu h shug.

interviewer

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mailer

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s us s ss. T g ss h h cuy

dt th v, thy dt th dpptt d v, thy dt th

honesty, they dealt to some degree with corruption, they dealt with the orces

o society as general abstract orces that could bend a person’s will. Ten came

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ssd.

interviewer

Was part o it your knowledge that man was living under the threat o mass

c?

mailer But that was the irony. Tat individual violence was taboo and yet we lived

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dys d ghs dg bu h hy cud bsuy dsy h h

cuy. I , hy skd hss h uch dg ud h

su dsy h S U y. Ts h kd ccus

h bg d h .




interviewer

Lt’ kp t th h. W c t th pd h yu g-

t Ac vt y bg t hv ucd udtdg

h c xss bh u gs d u scs. Ps

k h up.

mailer

I s ys h sy h h y d h hg

t d th vc. T dug pd h t ’t t ct

’d k h d h cuy. W d h h— s h

uch uctty. At th t, dvdu vc cdd vy

unpleasant and not to be talked about, and or me violent moments are always

xs s. Ty cuc. O ks h d sys, Myb I

c d shg c h hs.

interviewer

So you look at a gure such as Lee Harvey Oswald, a man whose name will

ys cg sg dsg c c—d h d yu s?

mailer W, s , I h dcd hh h dd . Wh I sd

Oswald’s ale I h I g Russ I s gg d u

u t. I bvd th cpcy. Ad th btt I gt t k

Osd h I c b h h s b cspcy

he was only there as some great extension, he wasn’t the sort o person who’d

b usu b h cspcy, bcus h s . H s uch

t pud. H td t d t h. I cud b g but th.

When I say I think Oswald killed John F. Kennedy, I come to that conclusion th y tgc fc, hch I’ vty-v pct

c h kd Kdy. Cy s c up h c-

ible evidence that he was part o a conspiracy, I’d have to say I was wrong. But

I b h dd , y sp s, hch s h d b us.

H td t b t. It td ut but h. Bcu h xp-

c h S U d Ac, h cssd ss c

individual violence, and he may indeed have elt that he was aorded a special

xsc.




interviewer

D yu s sd by yu ssy “T Wh Ng”?

mailer

I sd by h I’ su h y ub pp—pcuy yug —h d h s ccdg h quy h gs. I

h ds hy d chck h gs h g gs h h

chck d h’s h hy , h’s h d . Ad h’s sy

they’re wrong? Te orgasm is a very deep expression o ourselves. A lot o black

pp s h I scbd h sch h gs bck pp

h h. My g s h sc y h us ch

cu h, d pc ss.

interviewer

I t t tk t yu but h vt tgu ctu t.

Lc Sch bugh yu s h Gy G sy d

h bk bu L Hy Osd. S c yu bg sy h hpps

u cs ?

mailer k sc? A gh. Wh G, Ly c h hd

o the interviews, or hal o the interviews—something massive like that. And

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bcus sh s y gd h. Ad s dd up h bu h hu-

dd s, d yb h h I pcpd . F h, s

k ducg p sp syup—yu b h su dy g u

you get down to an essence. Ten came the next step, which was to transmute

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cs hs bk syd h g ss h c ud b.

Wh yu h cc b cs, h ub s h s h cs

—h’s h d I’ kg —d. Ty pd. Ty’

scabby. Tey’re distorted. Very oen they’re alse acts. And there’s a tendency

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s h sy y ds, dsp gd d sus s, h by

h y.




interviewer

Ts s xc. Bk d.

mailer

OK. I would go so ar as to say that any history that gets built entirely uponct gg t b u d b dg. It’ th hu d

h s b syhsz h h y gh h b. N, h y

d’t hv t b th tht tk pc, t h t b ty tht pp

can live with in their narrow minds, as the likelihood o how something could

k pc. Ad h’s h ky dc. I yu d bk d sy, Ys, hs

s h cud h k pc, yu d hs b chd. T g I

hd h Te Executioner’s Song s h hs cs, y csy xd

and reexamined and reduced and rened, would begin to create a maniest o

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th d, th yu’ tg ct. Fct t t gd,

syg su h’s u s ppsd su h s u. Shg c b

u d s b c.

interviewer Yu’ b y hppy h hs. Wh yu Te Armies o

the Night dd yu s ?

mailer

Yh, , I dd’ d uch jb h h “hsy s , h

s hsy” b. hs dy I’ su h I s dg h I dd h.

I hk h Te Armies o the Night s c. T bk s s s

I cud k t. It utbgphc tv, d tht’ t th hg s c.

interviewer

Ds bh yu h yu Puz Pzs ks bsd

cu sus?

mailer

S y th bd cttud, O cu M gd ct

—h’s uch s. T s , ys. Bcus h ps




saying that is just not amiliar with my work. No one could read Harlot’s Ghost

d y t’ ct, yu k. N cud d Ancient Evenings,

Gd’s sks, d sy h’s c. Ty’ h hs ks,

h’s . Ty’ d up h ds h bss h su hy h d,

hch ds b h c k.I ccp h I h b g h h pbs c h

ys, d h I h b hppy g c bcus ’s s

h g s. Yu d’ h y bu h sy.

interviewer

T ’ d, N. N y.

mailer

N, g . Wh yu’ g c yu c s yu

gv g. Yu c hv yu ptgt tk up u ct tht

appeals to you at the moment, and then you have to ollow up on that act, and

yu h d h h csqucs h c. Ad hs , sx

hs , h hs, ys , yu k up d sy, I k

the wrong turn that day. Tat happens in the writing o novels, and it’s enough

gh yu dh.

interviewer

OK. Bu yu’ gg suggs h yu c bcus

s s?

mailer

No—not quite. I wrote nonction because the jobs were oered to me. For

sc, h Marilyn, Sc Mdh, h s y g h , cd sy h’s g s py c y y- husd ds

My M. Ad h d h gu.

interviewer

Wh s ?

mailer

F h sk h cd, s y husd ds. I hs dys h

was enormous. And Scott said to me, Look, Norman. It’s very good. But don’t




t t uch. I pcdd t gt tk th My tht I dd up

writing ninety-ve thousand words. Fiy thousand ended up being a modest

py h bk sd cup. T p s, s such g-

b bk . I dd’ h d y hkg. I dd’ h c

hs cdb bd s h hd such cdb —h s h. Ad p h, g h bk ugh g d bu

ct d ct. S, I dg th gup . Evybdy

Hollywood exaggerates and distorts and trims and manipulates stories, and so

s s k bg gc g. Yu hd dcd h gh

b u d h gh .

interviewer

T’s p yu h jys h bg gc g?

mailer

Ds jus! I c dd sy W By Vanity Fair . I y

liked him, and I think he liked me. I also wanted him to run or president. Tis

s 1991, d h dud. Ad h A Hufg h

h shud u psd. S I cd W up d I sd, W yu s

c psd? Ad h sd, A gh, gh, h d yu ?Hd gc, I d h. Yu’ g , h sd. H ughd. Ah,

y W By hd b psd.

interviewer

Fub h cud d h d E By y cs

h uh. H uch yu s h h gd pss h yu’ k

yu ubjct, d ud t v b pb yu t y, Ad Ht,

c’est moi?

mailer

Wh I s dg h sy W, I s Bugsy, hch hd’

been released yet. And the violence in Bugsy was truly apparent. Now Warren

Beatty is obviously physically able, he’s a bit o an athlete, but you don’t think

o him as violent. And so it was a shock to see how marvelous and convincing

ptt vc h gd t gv. Ad I d t h, A’t yu

little bit concerned that your riends won’t be comortable around you now?

Ad h sd, Oh, , s y ds cs d hy udsd .




Yu d’ y d h h pc chc yu-

s b b py h. T h gd d sd, O cus yu’ g

sy- pc ’s s. I’d sy h Adph H, pc

s I dd.

interviewer

Yu’ g qu h pc.

mailer

You bring whatever powers you have to high ocus. It’s why very ew people

v bc uccu vt d b t uccu vt.

Tey have the talent, but it’s also about bringing the powers to ocus. It involves

su h s’ gb. F sc, bg s s yu h b

dy sc . Wh yu’ y kg h c

b dys h yu’ jus u h kg d g hg

yu d hg y s. Yu d’ b bhd, yu

d’ s h ph, yu d’ k g d

yu kds—yu b h yu’ kg. Ad h s hd.

Ad cus y g yu h g h d c h bk pg

d tt up g. S th bu bgg yu p t cu tu. Yu h b yu’ gg gg spu dsc

d g h pc h yu c hk. N jus hk s yus,

bu d s s h ps h’s shg h .

interviewer

H th b tc vty-v pct th yu, h yu

h yu y k xdy u bu h subjc? I

y k bu h subjc, s ppsd kg h ds dh s h s. I ’ hkg Pcss.

mailer

Tt . But , v vty-v pct. Ay th h.

I , hs xdy pp. Yu d L Hy Osd,

Gary Gilmore, Marilyn Monroe, Hitler. What’s the common denominator in

all o them? Tey’re all essentially people without roots—people who’ve gone

hugh dy css.




interviewer

Muhd A?

mailer

Oh, I hk h’s hd g hs dy y ys.

interviewer

Why?

mailer

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ss bsu ss. S h y hs sus shd, d

shd dcy s s, h s sh d ps. S h

hd dy css. O dus, dy shs.

interviewer

Jsus Chs?

mailer

I yu hk yu’ h s Gd, yu g dy css.

interviewer

Yu h b d cs d h s h cbd g, bu

not so much to the minutiae o amily lie or the American suburbs. Saul Bellow

put everything that ever happened to him into his novels. You’ve been married

sx s bu h usd yu p h y.

mailer N, d s—hch s, I b h h ud xp-

ences o your lie orm crystals in your imagination, and that you can take your

imagination and beam it through rom dierent angles. It hits the crystal, you

beam it through this way, you beam it through on another angle, and you end

up h d ss, d pçus, d s. I’s xcy h

cs d. I’ dcy bu h I s d

h. I d’ hk h I’ bu . I hk I bu

pct v, pct chd, bcu I d’t bv ug ’

xpc dcy. I hk yu d, yu cu h pssbs.




interviewer

N, ud b pssb k yu bu h c hu

kg bu pcs. Yu c cd yus cs.

mailer I s d. I cs.

interviewer

Bu us k bu css. I hs bc such hg A-

c. I’ sd yu shp h pp k N Pdhz,

pp h juy h k h y h pc h

hy sd.

mailer

Well, I can understand it. And in act, I eel partly responsible or Podhoretz.

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udtd hy h uppu. But thy thd h bk k yu

ud’ b. I s uy ugy. Ad I hd’ d y— I’d d h

s h , hch s py gd. Ad I ssd hs shg d sd h, I’ gg . S I d h bk. Ad h bk

bys s. T scd h s gd-u. I h s h, hs hss s h

th dty tt ct g th , g tt d tctu, tht

hy y k , d hy k bg. Ad hy cc

h hss d hs. Bu hs s y h g c

tht v tkd but. Yu c tk but x but yu c’t tk but

b d ds succss. S h ds h. Ad h h ss g

ptt th pp th h hv d t—pu, t tt ps, h pp h k gdd h . Ad I

s hd h y h cud by hs bk. T s u

nerve there—in other words, i you want to be strong theoretically, you better

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ds. Ad h s’.

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bck , I s pbby cu. H dpss d syd

h bu y . . . jus dd’ d uch. Wkd hs gz d

sd usc d hdy s y. Ad by h d h , h’d



t h e p a r i s r e v i e w 7 1

d h gh. Pdhz s hg c d psg.

S th t h vd v t th ght, t ’t ugh t b th

ght, h hd t b t th ght. Ad I tht I’ pb, t

htv dg, hpg t hv hvd h v th. Whch t

bd, bcus h s pyg hs ss h gh by hg suppdh Iq d h hs h —hs h h dcs

h css.

interviewer

Politics was a consuming passion or you—on the level o action, or a time, as

uch s h g. Dd yu h h pc c yu dsd?

mailer

Yu pd yu , yu’ ptcy dd t, ttckg ht

yu h pcy. Ad pbby hs h y s c. Bu

h c s h d . A p I cuy pcs d

d c u y N Yk d hugh I’d k dc.

What I discovered is I might just as well have tried out or a soccer team, when

I d’ k yhg bu scc.

interviewer

T 1969 cpg y kd h d yu pc c.

mailer

I zd ub thg d. O th I dd’t hv

ugh s. I , I gd h h u hs h cpg,

d I s d h . W g y pss. Ad y ,

h , s jus bg u ss gs h . Wh I sd t v tht h c’t b ctd pdt th tty.

Ad gh I d h k, g c Jy C. H bk h

u, bu h s’ y succssu psd.

interviewer

So it must interest you to imagine how Václav Havel managed to be a writer

d b psd ?




mailer

I d’t k uch but h c. W t c d hd uhppy

g bcus I’d b H d I kd bu g Cs, h

sg h s, hch s udby u, bu H jus cd

up. Obusy I s s h h h shd h yhg d, s y g s, Hy, yu g s? I yu g s! H

bugh u h d Bky .

interviewer

Bu s yu us h udsd?

mailer

I understood, but I also thought it was narrow-minded. Yes, he’d spent his

ghg h cuss, d h hd h, bu yu’ g b b

t k dtct. T uch thg tvy gd cut,

d h’s h, s Fd Cs. I , h’s hug d-

c—th vg cut tht ppd Hv buuct h

hd kp hs s c d h ugh d s ppss bcus h

s dcy. Ad h s Cs, h s hd by y Ac

pdt vy p , hch tht h hd bc hd by dg . Ad h hd hy bc psd? By shkg

hds h pp hy dspsd dcds. Ad H shud h b

b s h dc.

interviewer

Fy O’C c kd th qut, “Wh pk Ac

dy?” T s sh g s h dsg gcs. C yu g

g h h s h qus b h Ac s?

mailer

N, . I’ gy. I sh I cud b ps bu . Bu h

ks h k h cuy. T’s b pud sh h

Ac hc. W usd b cuy h pdd s h pd-

uct d. Nt cy th gtt t butu t y

chd pduct, but d vy gd v pduct tht d

cc ss. N h cuy’s pd s kg.




interviewer

F. Sctt Ftzgd k tht Ac ddctd t u. But t

u sy h Ac uy bs s s?

mailer Wh cs g s, ’ b g s sc Wd

W II. N, yb h s ys Wd W II, Russ

dgc tht bcu t dd hv gt pp t ct p

cus, qus. Ad h h hy h h bd ys. Ty’

never been a huge threat to us. Yet or orty-plus years while the cold war was

, kp Acs bg ggd sugg dgy

h hd b . S h s u bush sy g d,

k , h Ac d.

Most o the country believes in Jesus Christ. And they believe that compas-

sion is the greatest virtue. But we only believe this on Sundays. And the other

sx dys h k, ’ sy cp . W scb

like hell to make more money than our neighbor. Culture’s a word that most

Acs d’ c qucky. A Eup ks xcy h yu

by cuu. Ty’ g h h chcu. Ty’ g h

th cuv tt, d hv thugh tht g tght bcu tht’ th tt y t gt t kt. S th’ gt gut

American lie, and this guilt is that we’re not good Christians. Te Karl Rove

concoction—stupidity plus patriotism—comes into play here. Te basic pro-

pgd ch h ps, pcuy h Rpubcs, s c

h h b, gd cuy h s y gd h

t th d, d tht ’ Gd’ bg d tht Gd t u t

succd, h ’ Gd’s pjc. Ad ud hs xss, ys, gg

ss sh, gg ss gu, h g h ’ s gds pd b.

interviewer

Yug Ac ss h cd cc h gc hgh

cuu d h s Oph’s Bk Cub. Bu ss ss

dg , cuy; ’s h cc cuu h’s ub. Yu g up s

cds , sh sy, uu cg h g

y ccs—pp h hd pc g d spcu hgh

cutu. I’ thkg Ivg H d Ad Kz, L g,




cu, d Edud W. A t thg: Dd th xtc

h cc udc c yu ss h cuu yu g ?

Ad , hs h dsppc h cc cuu k y h

gd h ?

mailer

T s bh quss s ys, bsuy. Ts ccs y judg-

t p. It xctg t t t pp k g d

H h s ss. Edud Ws s h s hg

t Jhvh. Yu td th pct, d yu d th dppv. At

h s , s yu g d dpd, yu dd’ y

h. T c h —h hppy, bssd —h yu cud sy,

Well, I might know more about this subject than Irving Howe. Tat was a nice

moment. We don’t have it anymore. Tose critics have all passed away. Tere’s

pc h h I c s.

interviewer

You were riends with the rillings. Did you eel such people helped you to

d yu sy s ?

mailer

L s y , d h y ggd h bk s

such. Bu s c b hs psc. H s y g . Ad

h s h bk h , Te Liberal Imagination—yu cud gu h

. Yu cud h . Yu cud hk bu . Ad h s

spend an evening with because his intelligence was so good. Diana was enthusi-

astic, emotional, open, passionate, urious, absolutely took sides on everything,

intolerant, ull o un—the exact opposite o Lionel. I suppose I was really closer D. W s k cuss. W ugh h d d ch

h. Ad cus h s L H: hy pssb ds,

h gs d h Hs, bcus L s s syphc h

Py, d hy y uch cus. Ad y hy bugh

h up b h u h d, h hy pd cpy.

interviewer

“Mg kb ttut,” y th t th bk,

“spcy ddu pp.” T d ugh.




mailer

W, h d s spkg. T’s .

interviewer

As yu p. Bu I s d yu gs h d yu bs.

mailer

L’s sps h qus. Dd Pcss’s gs—’d b sy -

tionships—make him a better painter or a worse one? It’s an interesting point

gu.

interviewer

Ty cy dd h y.

mailer

Ey s cuu, d yu dp h cuu, h’s

t yu , d yu u t t. Ad gv th ct tht

g t y ctb ttut, yu ch tht cutu.

F xp, upp yu pd t y yu Fc. Ad yuy dcd . Yu ud’ h s yu sy, I h Fc.

Yu’d sy, Fc hs u . I h y dcs h , bu

I’ hppy I sp ys Fc. W d’ k gus k h

bcu thy cd th dgtg. Oh, h’ th h tk y

yuh d jyd h h d h k . T’s h y s.

M gd qut uch by g . T’ qut

y d tht th ch g Pc dt typ pt.

Ad I hk yu cud pbby sy—I d’ cp ys Pcss, hhd uch gh c h d h I’ h—h y g

shd h ch . Ech shp hd pud c h k.

O hs d ys, d ss, d udsdgs. O

hs d ss gd d .

interviewer

Gd d ?




mailer

Ou udtdg gd d v bg th u pt. D th

d s d by ’s shps h ’s chd.

interviewer I one is so minded—or so inclined—is it a good idea or a novelist to have

chd?

mailer

I don’t prescribe or novelists. I mean, i Henry James ollowed my prescrip-

, h ud h h b?

interviewer

Js hs s u pscps.

mailer

He made a etish o point o view. Tat was as close as he came to an all-out

g.

interviewer Hs s us ssy hs h s s hs ss, “T A

Fct.” I t h y d th u gd tg. “B gu d

dc d pusu h pz.” “D’ hk uch bu ps d

pessimism; try and catch the color o lie itsel.” He had quite specic notions

h h jb ddd.

mailer

I would never have wanted to live his lie. oo much went to too little. Notcy th k, but th dy-t-dy vg. T tt ht t

g g. T cc hh h cs

hs d b hgh ugh . A h s su. N, us b

h.

interviewer

Y h s h qus dshp. Ac ss h b

s py dcd by h dshps—Fzgd d Hgy,

Shd Ads d Td Ds.




mailer

Fzgd d Hgy’s dshp s hdy uubd.

interviewer

N, but th dhp vth dd thg t ch h.

mailer

A gh, , I c g yu Js Js d ys .

interviewer

Ad W Sy?

mailer

I s ugh W Sy p. H s y d .

Yu hv t udtd thg. T J d Sty d y,

d y cpttv. Wht’ t udtd ufcty

but vt h cpttv . W’ cpttv t

athletes. Particularly the ones who break through into public renown. And we

d’ sy, Oh, h d yu h b s us ch h ? Is’ ugh h ’ d? Why c’ jus jy ch h? I ds’

k h y. W’ cp. Yu c’ sy hs, Wh yu

competitive or? Isn’t it marvelous that you can catch a ootball with great ease

d u qucky? Why d yu h b cp h h h ?

Ay h ks k h s h ss s b.

At the same time we had a lot o respect or each other. I remember I received

cpy From Here to Eternity, hch I thk I’d kd , d J hd

cbd t: “ N—y t d d; y dt v.” Tt’the nature o riendship among writers. Gore Vidal—who has never been at a

ss s h g sd hu u—pd u h, “Wh

d uccd, tt thg d.” Tt’ xggt

hs cp. Bu y y g h p h,

thugh thg yu d d, th pt yu cugd.

Yu sy, W, h’s dg , I c d .

interviewer

Bu Sy?




mailer

I s hs sy. H s du sys. Pbby h bs us. H s

cu, bu h hd by c d. Ad I hk s

y p h b g . S p h h h bg

to run into trouble as a novelist, I think that’s what brought on his depression h yhg s.

interviewer

Wh xps yu g u?

mailer

I d’ g . A c p, I h y ugy

h sp shg y . T s hu sufc

kdg h jusd h sg dg.

interviewer

Ad yu dshp dd h Js Js?

mailer

Wh hppd h J s, ’d b y dy d h h g -d G. Ad I s d h Ad, d I hk G,

who was socially very ambitious, saw Adele as a sea anchor on her social ambi-

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, d Ad vy upt. Sh d, I dd’t ut h. I d’t k

h’s gg . Ad s I ys ssud, Oh, h jus d ugh, hd-

boiled decision. Gloria was a tough lady. So Jim and I stopped talking to each

th y, d v bc d g, hch gt ,

bu h s. Ad h G d I, ddy ugh, J s g,bc sgh ds g. I s y y gh, jyg dcg

together at some party in New York. I wouldn’t have believed it was possible

ys .

interviewer

Much hs pds updg us ssy yu . I s

cd “Evut: Quck d Expv Ct th t th

R.” I ups pp h , bu hch h gup s

yu bu ud u b h s supsg h d?




mailer

Wh h s?

interviewer

Ys.

mailer

Updike and Roth. Because I dismissed them, you remember. And I was dead

g. G h psy ss, I’ k cd. I hk I

g h gd ugh sy, H’s gg u hs ds!

interviewer

Ad ds sups yu, hs pshuus u Cp?

mailer

H s xdy ps. Exdy. N xdy h

dph hs gc, bu xdy hs dg. I c d c-

t tht h th bvt N Yk. Ad yu’v d

what it meant to walk around the way he did when he was young. I remember

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Hghs. u d h bs h, s ’d u ch h

h s c h. O , h dd, sd kg, d I

said, Let’s have a drink, and we went into the nearest bar. It happened to be an

old Irishmen’s bar. It was one hundred yards long, or so it seemed, and they all

had one oot up on the rail, these tough working-class Irishmen, and probably

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interviewer

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It can take you down. Look at poor ruman. His attitude became, I I’m notrecognized in my own time then something absolutely awul is taking place in

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Documents

Entrevista a Norman Mailer (INGLES)