emocija – to of Emotion je ono o čemu sanjam I Dream of · (Peter Zumthor, Hortus Conclusus, 2011.) ¶ In the same manner he contemplates life Peter Zumthor ... like to contribute

Peter Zumthor, Interview6 7oris, number 73, year 2012

Spaces Full of Emotion – That is What I Dream of

Vera Grimmer Tadej Glažar Ana Dana Beroš

fotografije photographs by

portreti portraits

Interviewed in Haldenstein, 23 September 2011

We come from nature and we return to nature... I see a great cycle and I am part of it. I did not exist before my time and I will no longer exist after my time. But in my time, I belong to the process of life on this planet; for a little while I am part of the organism of human beings, animals and plants that exist on this planet and that passes life on. (Peter Zumthor, Hortus Conclusus, 2011.)

¶ In the same manner he contemplates life Peter Zumthor contemplates his work because for him, it is one and the same. Empathy in relation to places, people, environment, history is contained in the essence of his ‘customized’ masterpieces, as their author says himself. Even as a boy, he was introduced to the culture of creating worthy and durable things.

Atelier Peter Zumthor & Partner (APZ)Hélène Binet (HB) ljubaznošću / Courtesy of Verlag Scheidegger & Spiess, ZürichDamir Fabijanić (DF), Thomas Flechtner (TF)Jiri Havran (JH), Walter Herfst (WH)Urszula Kijek & Ziemowit Maj (UKZM)Walter Mair (WM), Margherita Spiluttini (ms)Klemens Grund

Peter Zumthor

Peter Zumthor

Peter Zumthor, Intervju

Prostori puni emocija – to je ono o čemu sanjam

razgovaraliinterviewed by

Razgovarali u Haldensteinu 23. rujna 2011.

Mi dolazimo iz prirode i u nju se vraćamo...Vidim veliki ciklus čiji sam dio. Nisam postojao prije svog vremena i neću više postojati poslije svog vremena. Ali u svoje vrijeme pripadam životnom procesu na ovome planetu; kratko sam vrijeme dio organizma ljudskih bića, životinja i biljaka koje egzistira na ovome planetu i daje mu život. (Peter Zumthor, Hortus Consclusus, 2011.)

¶ Isto tako kao što razmišlja o svojem životu, Peter Zumthor razmišlja o svom radu jer za njega je to jedno te isto. Empatija u odnosu na mjesto, ljude, okoliš, povijest, u osnovi je njegovih majstorskih djela ‘rađenih po mjeri’, kako to kaže njihov autor, koji je već kao dječak upoznao kulturu izrade valjanih i postojanih stvari.


Serpentine Gallery Pavilion, London,

England, 2011

(WH)

Oris — I would like to remind you of terms mentioned in your text in the book Häuser from 1997. You listed terms like place, material, presence, remembering, memory, image, atmosphere, density, concentration, duration as important for your work. Today, after fourteen years, these terms have the same sparkle and meaning they possessed in the past. ¶ Peter Zumthor — I agree. Nevertheless, I think over and again from the position of a new time. Life changes and thinking as well. I do not think that the terms mentioned are wrong, but I can always provide merely concrete answers, not abstract ones, always in a concrete context.Oris — In other words – the idea is in things. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, I think you could say that, mostly.Oris — The term place is mentioned first. Do you think that some architecture can be successful and appropriate if it can be placed anywhere. For example, I would like to compare two stadiums. The Allianz Arena in Munich can be placed anywhere and nowhere, while the stadium by Sotto de Moura in Braga can be placed there and only there. You expressed the specific relation of your work to a place with following words: ‘I would like to contribute to the richness of atmosphere in a place with my work.’ Can architecture without such a close relation to a specific place be sound? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Two paths are always possible; it is possible to react to a place, but there is also typological architecture. The same type can reappear in another place, but the building type then again reacts to a specific place. In the history of architecture there have always been both architecture that develops a relation to a place and typological architecture. Personally, I mostly prefer topological architecture, this seems to be the right path to me, but actually I can imagine different architecture as well.Oris — Wherever people have the possibility to survive and can make a home? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, for example, nomadic architecture of tents also exists. I do not say that only topological architecture is good; it all depends on culture and function. I personally would not feel good in a tent; nevertheless, I can imagine a culture in which people would not feel good if they were always in the same place.Oris — And another question – the question of form. Hans Hollein once said that form is important and significant, and everything else results from a creative form developed by an architect. ¶ Peter Zumthor — To tell the truth, I do not start from the form, but from other things; however, I create the form eventually – I have to create the form and then control it.Oris — Do you not have aspirations for an arbitrary gesture? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I also need intuition; I don’t think one

Peter Zumthor, Intervjuoris, broj 73, godina 2012

Paviljon Serpentine Gallery, London,

Engleska, 2011.

Oris — Podsjetila bih na pojmove koje spominjete u svom tekstu u knjizi Häuser iz 1997. godine. Pojmove kao mjesto, materijal, prisutnost, pamćenje, sjećanje, slika, ugođaj, zgusnutost, koncentracija, trajanje naveli ste kao bitne za vaš rad. Danas, nakon 14 godina ti pojmovi imaju isti sjaj i značenje koje su i tada posjedovali. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Slažem se, no uvijek opet razmišljam s pozicija novog vremena. Život se mijenja, također i razmišljanje. Ne mislim da je spomenuto pogrešno, ali uvijek mogu dati samo konkretne odgovore, ne apstraktne, uvijek u konkretnom sklopu.

(UKZM)


should contemplate forever. Nevertheless, Hollein talks about the same thing that I do. I talk about the form in the end, but I can understand that, for him, the form is in the first place. I think it is not very important how an architect talks, but it is important what he or she builds.Oris — You do not give interviews very often. Is this because of your opinion that architecture should be experienced, and not so much talked about? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I give enough interviews, but I try to find a normal measure. I primarily work, but I also gladly talk about my work. Nonetheless, I cannot always talk about my work therefore I cannot accept every interview. This is not about ideology, it’s about my concentration on work.Oris — Let us go back to the theme of topological architecture, specifically to the Serpentine Gallery Pavilion in London. You said in one interview: ‘I am a passionate architect, I love projects into which I can put my heart.’ Can you explain how

your heart was involved in this very concrete case in London? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, many things are related to gardens there, to landscape. Gardens and landscape have been more and more of an interest of mine for quite a long time now. It was nice to see what was going on when people were not in the centre, but a garden, with people gathered around it. Therefore the centre here is not for people, but for the garden. The situation is different than when you can pass through a garden. It is not

possible to walk through the garden here. This here works in such a way that people gather around plants that are in the centre. In the entirety of the park, the garden functions as a magnifier; here, we find large lilies for example. The garden is accessed through a dark zone, individual plants can be seen, and details are visible. Nature has a different measure here.Oris — Hortus conclusus appears here thematically, which is in a way also the case with the Kolumba museum. There, the garden is a kind of filter that protects the building from banal surroundings. ¶ Peter Zumthor — It was important there that the building got a backyard which offered a certain intimacy, like a small monastery garden. This is excellent for that museum to have this intimate zone opened. It is less a matter of protection from banality, but more of the possibility to go out into this open intimate space.Oris — Positioning is also a theme. For example, William Curtis writes that there is intuitive positioning in your work,

Bruder Klaus Field Chapel, Wachendorf, Germany, 2007

(WM)


Oris — Znači – ideja je u stvarima. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, mislim da se to može tako kazati, uglavnom.Oris — Kao prvi je naveden pojam mjesto, mislite li da neka arhitektura može biti uspješna i prikladna ako se može nalaziti bilo gdje. Kao primjer bih usporedila dva stadiona. Allianz Arena u Münchenu može stajati svagdje i nigdje, dok se stadion arhitekta Sotto de Moure u Bragi može nalaziti ta mo i samo tamo. Osebujan odnos svojeg rada prema mjestu izrazili ste riječima: ‘Želio bih svojim djelom doprinijeti bo gatstvu atmosfere nekog mjesta.’ Može li arhitektura koja nema takav čvrsti odnos prema nekom specifičnom mjestu biti pos tojana? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Uvijek postoje dva moguća puta, moguće je reagirati na mjesto, ali postoji i tipološka arhitektura. Isti tip može se opet pojaviti na nekom drugom mjestu, ali građevni tip onda opet reagira na specifično mjesto. U povijesti arhitekture su uvijek postojale i arhitektura koja razvija odnos prema mjestu i tipološka arhitektura. Osobno

uglavnom preferiram topološku arhitekturu, to mi se čini pravim putom, ali zapravo mogu zamisliti i drugačiju arhitekturu.Oris — Svuda gdje ljudi imaju mogućnost egzistencije, mogu se udomiti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, na primjer postoji i nomadska arhitektura šatora. Ne kažem da je samo topološka arhitektura dobra, sve to ovisi i o kulturi i o funkciji. Osobno se ne bih dobro osjećao u šatoru, no mogu zamisliti kulturu gdje se ljudi ne bi osjećali dobro da su uvijek na istom mjestu.Oris — Jedno drugo pitanje – pitanje forme. Hans Hollein je jednom prilikom rekao da je upravo forma važna i bitna, a sve drugo proizlazi iz kreativne forme koju je razvio arhitekt. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Dakle ja ne polazim od forme, već od drugih stvari, ali na kraju moram napraviti formu pa je zatim kontrolirati itd.Oris — Ne težite za svojevoljnom gestom? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Potrebna mi je također i intuicija, ne mislim da tre ba pro mišljati u nedogled. Ipak Hollein govori o istome kao i ja. Ja govorim o formi na kraju, ali mogu razumjeti da je za njega forma na prvom mjestu. Mislim da ne igra važnu ulogu kako arhitekt govori, bitno je to što gradi.Oris — Ne dajete često intervjue, je li to zbog vašeg stava da arhitekturu treba doživjeti, a manje o njoj govoriti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Dajem dovoljno intervjua, ali nastojim naći neku normalnu mjeru. U prvom redu radim, ali rado i govorim o svom radu. No, ne mogu uvijek govoriti o svom radu, pa zato i ne mogu prihvatiti svaki intervju. Nije riječ o ideologiji, već o mojoj koncentraciji na rad.Oris — Vratimo se na temu topološke arhitekture, konkretno na paviljon Serpentine Gallery u Londonu. U jednom ste intervjuu rekli: ‘Ja sam strastveni arhitekt, volim projekte u koje mogu unijeti svoje srce.’ Možete li objasniti kako je bilo upleteno Vaše srce u tom vrlo konkretnom slučaju u Lon donu? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, tamo je mnogo toga vezano uz vrt, uz krajolik. Vrt i krajolik me već dugo i sve više zaokupljaju. Bilo je lijepo vidjeti što se događa kada u središtu nije čovjek, nego je u centru vrt oko kojeg se ljudi okupljaju. Dakle sredina nije tu za ljude nego za vrt. Situacija je drugačija nego kada kroz vrt možete prolaziti jer tamo to nije moguće. Tamo se ljudi okupljaju oko biljaka koje su u središtu. U cjelini parka vrt funkcionira kao povećalo, tu nalazimo, primjerice, velike ljiljane. Kroz jednu tamnu zonu dolazi se u vrt, gdje se mogu promatrati pojedinačne biljke, vidi se detalj. Tu priroda ima drugačije mjerilo.Oris — Tu se tematski pojavljuje hortus conclusus, što je na neki način slučaj i kod Muzeja Kolumba. Tamo je vrt svoje vrsni filtar koji zgradu štiti od banalne okoline. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Tamo je bilo važno da zgrada dobije stražnje

Poljska kapela Bruder Klaus, Wachendorf,

Njemačka, 2007.

Bruder Klaus Field Chapel, Wachendorf,

Germany, 2007

(WM)

Poljska kapela Bruder Klaus, Wachendorf, Njemačka, 2007.


Zumthor house and atelier, Haldenstein, Switzerland, 2005

(DF)

is elevated in an architectural sense. Such buildings have a tendency to be large, but there is also the opposite situation. When we see big hotel palaces in the mountains, they actually look as if they are small. We sense the dimension of the Alps if there is a big object there.Oris — What does monumentality mean to you today? Is classic monumentality still interesting or can we talk about a differentiated monumentality? ¶ Peter Zumthor — There is more than one definition of monumentality. In the sense ‘too big’ – it is not good. When nonexperts talk about monumentality, they think of ‘too big’. A monument is good in a city,

placing a building into a landscape as an object. In this sense, a conversation with Adam Caruso crosses my mind: he expressed his fascination with the Bruder Klaus chapel, namely with the fact that the chapel looks significantly bigger from a distance than from close by. It is not entirely rational that such wondrous effects can be achieved with one building. How does one achieve this? What would be the relation to an object and what to a place? Do you establish what is characteristic for a place and then observe in what manner to approach it with your object? Or, do you perhaps look for the

contrast? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Actually this is one classic example. There is this open landscape there and merely one building, the chapel, is alone with nothing around. When an old castle in the mountains is concerned, one has a feeling that it is in exactly the right place. In relation to a built position, there is something on the left or on the right, behind or in front, to the east or to the west. Like with Heidegger, when he writes about the bridge: suddenly there is something above the bridge, under the bridge, etc. Focusing on an object is so strong that it becomes huge; it is given enormous meaning because it is the only building with architectural form. It


Kuća i atelijer Zumthor, Haldenstein, Švicarska, 2005.

kad piše o mostu: odjednom je nešto iznad mosta, ispod mosta itd. Fokusiranje na objekt je tako snažno da postaje golem, dobiva ogromno značenje, jer je jedini objekt koji ima arhitektonsku formu. Izdiže se u arhitektonskom smislu. Takvi objekti imaju tendenciju da budu veliki, no postoji i obratna situacija. Kad vidimo velike hotelske palače u planinama, izgledaju zapravo kao da su male. Osjećamo di menziju Alpa ako se tamo nalazi veliki objekt.Oris — Što danas za vas znači monumentalnost? Je li klasična monumentalnost još zanimljiva ili se može govoriti o diferenciranoj monumentalnosti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Ima

dvorište, koje poput maloga samostanskog vrta pruža određenu intimnost. To je sjajno za taj muzej, da se otvara ta intimna zona. Manje je riječ o zaštiti od banalnosti, a više o mo gućnosti izlaska u taj otvoreni intimni prostor.Oris — Pozicioniranje je također tema. Primjerice, William Curtis napisao je da vi na intuitivni način pozicionirate svoje građevine, odnosno da postavljate zgrade kao objekte u krajo lik. U tom smislu prisjetila sam se razgovora s Adamom Ca rusom, koji je izrazio svoju fasciniranost kapelom Bruder Klaus, odnosno time da kapela izdaleka djeluje znatno veća

nego izbliza. Nije posve racionalno da se jednom zgradom mogu postići tako začudni efekti. Kako se to postiže? Kakav je odnos prema objektu, a kakav prema mjestu? Utvrđujete li što je za mjesto karakteristično, pa onda gledate kako ćete mu se približiti svojim objektom? Ili možda tražite upravo kontrast? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Zapravo je to jedan klasičan primjer. Tamo je otvoreni krajolik u kojem nadaleko stoji samo jedna građevina – kapela. Kod starih dvoraca u planinama imamo osjećaj da se nalaze baš na pravom mjestu. U odnosu na jednu izgrađenu poziciju tamo je nešto lijevo ili desno, straga ili sprijeda, istočno ili zapadno. Kao kod Heideggera

Zumthor house and atelier, Haldenstein,

Switzerland, 2005

(DF)

Kuća i atelijer Zumthor, Haldenstein, Švicarska,

2005.


Zumthor — These are not personalities; these are people I do not know at all. These are numerous things that have left an impression on me: buildings, streets, people I don’t know, perhaps famous, perhaps unknown, I don’t know. I know the sources, the scientific sources of few of my experiences. This is not related only to famous architects. During the studies, there are models, one is searching. Nevertheless, at the moment I started my own practice, models became less important, it was meaningful to be in the world.Oris — The world is harmonious or not harmonious. What is your relation to disharmony? In art, we can for example follow it in works by Bosch and later on Goya; or in poetry, in works by Lautréamont, the splendour of the evil in The Songs of Maldoror was later on taken over by surrealists. Modern music abandoned harmony at the beginning of the 20th century and reached its own negation in the work and ideas of John Cage: total silence. ¶ Peter Zumthor — I do not need disharmony in architecture. I want to create calm spaces, calm houses. If at one point I created a disco club, this would not be so calm, but I do not need disharmony as a principle of composition. I do not express myself in architecture in that manner. I do need intense energy and tension, but this is again lost later on. Nonetheless, it is not that melody has disappeared in contemporary music or that there are no more

a good monument is not too big, a church is not too big and a city hall is not too big either. In other words, if a monument has its meaning and sense, then it is good because it reflects a community, city or landscape. However, monumentality in the sense of inappropriate grandeur is not good.Oris — If we speak about the search for architectural atmosphere: what truly constitutes a certain architectural atmosphere? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Everything: the shape of a space, things around that reflect light... An atmosphere is established by materials, energy.Oris — Perhaps a sensual character of materials also contributes a certain atmosphere? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Of course, we can combine materials in such a manner that together they leave an impression which can be better or worse.Oris — For example, the velvet glitter of the concrete walls in your house or in Kunsthaus Bregenz, or charred traces of wood in combination with shiny crystals in the Bruder Klaus chapel... Does the origin of such choices of materials lie in different earlier perceptions, experiences, perhaps in literature as well? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I think that everything people do when they create has its origin in their biography and this means ‘I saw something, I experienced something.’ All I can imagine is closely related to my biographic experiences. My cognitions are almost one hundred percent related to works of people who acted before me, and most of them are already dead. The constructed world was created by people from the kingdom of the dead, from history. This formed me, and I act out of that urge. I like to work like that and I do not think that working in this way means that I am not modern.Oris — So, you feel as if you are part of a long chain, but who are other links of this chain who are important to you? Personalities? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Personalities are not important.Oris — But their works, works by these dead people? ¶ Peter


ljudi koje ne poznajem, možda poznati, možda ne poz nati, ne znam. Od tek malobrojnih svojih doživljaja poznajem izvor, znanstveni izvor. To nije povezano samo s čuvenim arhitektima. Za vrijeme studija postoje uzori, traži se. Međutim u trenutku kada sam počeo s vlastitom praksom, uzori su postali manje važni, bilo je važno biti u svijetu.Oris — Svijet je harmoničan ili nije harmoničan. Kakav je vaš odnos prema disharmoniji? U umjetnosti to možemo pratiti, primjerice, kod Boscha, poslije kod Goye ili u poeziji kod Lautréamonta – sjaj zla u Maldororovim pjevanjima poslije su preuzeli nadrealisti. Moderna je glazba napustila harmoniju već početkom 20. stoljeća i dospjela je do vlastite negacije u djelu i idejama Johna Cagea, do potpune tišine. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Disharmonija mi u arhitekturi ne treba. Želim raditi mirne prostore, mirne kuće. Kad bih možda jednom radio neki disko, to ne bi bilo tako mirno, ali disharmoniju kao princip kompozicije ne trebam. U arhitekturi se na taj način ne izražavam. Potrebna mi je pojačana energija i napetost, ali to se poslije opet izgubi. Ipak, u suvremenoj glazbi nije tako da je melodija nestala ili da više nema baroknih principa harmonije. Postoje i apstraktne slike koje su vrlo harmonične. Nije neophodno potrebna melodija i ne trebamo nužno vidjeti zalaz Sunca da bismo postigli i stvorili apstraktnu harmoniju. Harmonija i napetost su u

više definicija monumentalnosti. Ako se odnosi na nešto pre veliko, to nije dobro. Kad nestručnjaci govore o monumentalnosti, misle na – preveliko. U gradu je monument, tj. spomenik u redu, dobar spomenik nije prevelik, crkva nije prevelika, a u pravilu ni vijećnica nije prevelika. Drugim riječima, ako neki spomenik ima svoje značenje i smisao, to je dobro jer zrcali društvenu zajednicu, grad, odnosno krajolik. Međutim monumentalnost u smislu deplasirane veličine nije dobra.Oris — Ako govorimo o traženju arhitektonske atmosfere, što stvarno uspostavlja određenu arhitektonsku atmosferu? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Sve. Oblik prostora, stvari uokolo ko je reflektiraju svjetlo. Atmosferu uspostavljaju materijali, energija.Oris — Možda i čulni karakter materijala doprinosi određenoj atmosferi? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Dakako, materijale možemo tako kombinirati da zajedno djeluju lošije ili bolje.Oris — Na primjer baršunasti sjaj betonskih zidova u vašoj kući ili u Kunsthaus Bregenz, ili pougljenjeni tragovi drveta u kombinaciji s blistavim kristalima u kapeli Bruder Klaus; potiče li takav izbor materijala iz različitih prijašnjih doživljaja, iskustava, možda i iz literature? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Mislim da sve što ljudi rade kada nešto stvaraju, potječe iz njihove biografije, a to znači iz nečega što sam vidio i iskusio. Sve što mo gu zamisliti je tijesno povezano s mojim biografskim iskustvima. Moja saznanja su gotovo stopostotno povezana s radovima ljudi koji su prije mene djelovali, većina od njih je već mrtva. Izgrađeni svijet stvorili su ljudi iz carstva mrtvih, iz povijesti. To me je formiralo i iz tog poriva radim. Volim tako raditi, pa i ne mislim da ako radim na taj način, nisam mo deran.Oris — Dakle osjećate se dijelom dugačkog lanca, ali tko su druge karike tog lanca, koje su vama važne osobnosti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Osobnosti nisu važne.Oris — Ali njihova djela, djela tih mrtvih ljudi? ¶ Peter Zumthor — To nisu osobe, to su ljudi koje uopće ne poznajem. To su brojne stvari koje su me se dojmile, zgrade, ulice,

Redevelopment of De Meelfabriek, Leiden, Holland, 2002,rendering and model

(APZ)

Obnova De Meelfabriek, Leiden, Nizozemska, 2002.–, rendering i maketa


baroque principles of harmony. There are also abstract paintings that are very harmonious. Melody is not necessarily needed and we do not necessarily have to see the sunset to create an abstract harmony. Harmony and tension, but not provocation and aggressiveness: there is no place for such things in my houses.Oris — Álvaro Siza once said that in a time of acceleration, architecture has to be very slow. Can you tell us something about your work procedure? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Two things. First, I participate in the development of a programme, I do not execute the already defined. When an investor approaches me, we think together – what we want to build. Then the process continues: I am interested in contents. I will not create a beautiful form for stupid contents. I am not a service provider. Second, I create unique works, customized unique works and I do the work from the beginning to the end. This means that I do not make customized ideas or customized projects, I create customized houses and I do everything on them. In order to be able to work like that, I have to work very quickly, extremely quickly. But, I also possess selfcriticism: I have to like what was designed and for that, I always need a certain process – yonder and back, left and right – until finally everything is truly harmonized. Perhaps third as well, I only create original works, I do not repeat myself. I try to create an original work for a particular task and concrete place. I hand over the original work

Kuće za Annalisu i Petera Zumthora, Vals,

Leis, Švicarska, 2009.

Kuće za Annalisu i Petera Zumthora, Vals, Leis, Švicarska, 2009.

Log houses for Annalisa and Peter Zumthor,

Vals, Leis,Switzerland, 2009

(HB)

Log houses for Annalisa and Peter Zumthor, Vals, Leis,Switzerland, 2009

(HB)


redu, ali ne provokacija i agresivnost – njima u mojim kućama nema mjesta.Oris — Álvaro Siza je jednom prilikom rekao da u ovo ubrza no doba arhitektura mora biti vrlo polagana. Možete li nam nešto kazati o svom radnom procesu? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Spomenut ću dvije stvari. Prvo, ja sudjelujem u razvija nju programa, ne provodim već zadano. Kada dođe investitor, zajednički promišljamo što želimo graditi. Zatim se proces nastavlja, a mene u tome najviše zanima sadržaj. Ne bih radio lijepu formu za glupi sadržaj. Ne bavim se uslužnom djelatnošću. Drugo, radim unikate po mjeri, koje radim od početka do kraja. To znači da ne radim ideje po mje ri, ni projekte po mjeri, radim kuće po mjeri za koje radim sve. Kako bih tako mogao raditi, moram raditi vrlo brzo, izvanredno brzo. Ali ja sam i samokritičan, projektirano mi se mo ra sviđati, a za to mi je uvijek potreban određeni proces

– naprijed i nazad, lijevo i desno – dok sve napokon nije zaista usklađeno. Možda još nešto treće, radim samo originale, ne ponavljam se. Nastojim napraviti original za određenu zadaću i konkretno mjesto. Original predajem tek kad smatram da je dobar, prije toga ne gradim. Sve to radim relativno brzo, ali u usporedbi s radom drugih arhitekata to djeluje polako. No ja ne radim polako, radim brzo.Oris — To što ste rekli podsjetilo me na jednu emisiju na austrijskom radiju u kojoj ste govorili o svom obrazovanju, o


Muzej Kolumba nadbiskupije u Kölnu,

Köln, Njemačka, 2007.

Kolumba Art Museum of the Archbishopric

of Cologne, Cologne, Germany, 2007

(DF)


Oris — Kada je riječ o radu ljudskih ruku, kako stoje stvari s jednim relativno velikim projektom kao u Leidenu? Kako se odvija prijelaz od jednoga relativno malog mjerila na mjerilo jednoga grada? Riječ je o čitavoj gradskoj četvrti koja će biti obnovljena. Vjerojatno je to prilično komplicirano zbog uključenosti različitih faktora. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Ne vidim velike razlike. Postoji osjećaj: ako znamo kako se radi soba, znamo i kako se gradi kuća. Ako se gradi kuća svjesno u odnosu na njezin utjecaj na okolinu, onda se ima pojam o tome

only when I think it is good; I do not build before that. All this I do pretty quickly, but in comparison with other architects it seems slow. Nevertheless, I do not work slowly, I work quickly.Oris — This reminds me of a radio show on an Austrian radio station in which you talked about your education, about the path of your development as an architect, and about the importance of the fact that you had already met ca bi netmaker’s tools in childhood in your father’s workshop. You

što bi mogao biti grad i tako dalje. To znači dakako mnogo više rada, u igri je mnogo više faktora, sve je složenije, ali zapravo volim taj rad. Ne slijedim neku teoriju, moj postupak je više fenomenološki. Gledam gdje leže problemi, kakva su moguća rješenja pa nastojim naći jednostavne, direktne odgovore. To je često višeslojno, treba dati odgovore u odnosu na velike i na male stvari.Oris — Kako znamo su evociranje emocija i materijalnost od znatne važnosti za vaš rad, kao i intuitivna strana vaše

spoke of the pride of a craftsman in making each and every object well and correctly, without anything redundant. You said that it was even more important than your studies in New York and also that vocational school was important to you. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, this was very important. I think that it is necessary for an architect, who wants to build houses, to know something about the culture of making, to have a feeling for that. After all, houses have still been for the most part created by the work of human hands.

svom razvojnom putu kao arhitekta te da je bilo važno da ste se već u djetinjstvu, u radionici vašeg oca upoznali sa stolarskim alatom. Bilo je riječi o ponosu obrtnika da svaki predmet uradi dobro i ispravno, bez ičeg suvišnog. Kazali ste da je to bilo čak važnije od studija u New Yorku te također da je obrtna škola bila za vas važna. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, to je bilo od velike važnosti. Mislim da je za arhitekta, koji želi graditi kuće, potrebno da zna ponešto o kulturi izrađivanja, da za to ima osjećaj. Napokon, kuće još uvijek najvećim dijelom nastaju radom ljudskih ruku.


learn at school. They have to learn that the intuitive, emotional reaction comes first and when this happens, the question ‘why’ follows: ‘Why is this feeling like this?’ Since the intellect reveals why something is good, why something is bad, why something is wrong, one should use it, but not vice versa.Oris — Can you maybe explain this interplay between intuition and intellectual by the example of the Vals project? ¶ Peter Zumthor — To describe a process that lasted for seven years? It was a continuous process. The process is always the same: a feeling comes into being. Nevertheless, it is also possi ble that an abstract idea occurs to me. It sounds good, there is some thing there and the feeling will tell whether it is possible or not. Sometimes, it does not feel right, that means there is something there, but I have to find out what. It is the sa me in each and every project – it is designing. Some people say designing is making decisions, but naturally, you also have to pro vide the form. This is what my working procedure looks like.Oris — But, it is better for the process if the feeling is more powerful than thought, than rationality, isn’t it? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I want to say that the feeling knows a lot, and the head can control it or the head knows a lot and the feeling will then tell whether it is right. It is good that people have both options, but in the end my head has to agree as well, otherwise I cannot work.Oris — Can you tell us something about the relationship between architect and investor? Are there cases in which investors are sometimes overburdened because of your tendency for perfectionism, your desire to do everything well and correctly? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Investors are always somewhat overburdened; that is, somewhere around

Steilneset Memorial for the Victims of

the Witch Trials in the Finnmark, Vardø,

Norway, 2011

Oris — When we talk about the work of human hands, what is the situation like in a relatively big project like the one in Leiden? How does the transfer from a relatively small scale to the scale of a town develop? This is an entire town block here, which will be renovated. It is probably quite complicated due to involvement of different factors. ¶ Peter Zumthor — I do not see a big difference. There is the feeling: if we know how to build a room, we also know how to build a house. If a house is built consciously in relation to what it means for its surroundings, then there is an idea about what a town could be and so on. This does mean far more work, there are many more factors in the game, everything is more complex, but I actually like this work. I do not follow a theory, my procedure is more phenomenological. I observe where the problems are, what the possible solutions are, and I try to find simple, direct answers. Frequently, this has a multilayered quality, one ought to provide answers in relation to large and small things.Oris — As we all know, evoking emotions and materiality are quite important in your work, as well as the intuitive side of your personality. What role does the intelligence, the intellectual act, play in the design process? ¶ Peter Zumthor — It is very important in our lives that we do have intuition and that we also have a brain. The brain is slower than intuition: we know that intuition operates immediately, and the brain needs some time. Intuition is extensive, wide, like a sharp knife to some extent. Therefore, it is very important to feel in what way my intuition tells me to do something and after this reaction, I try to find out why with my mind. But, intuition comes first. Of course, young architects who come from university have this habit of thinking that only what you can talk about is good. If you can explain something well, it might be good. This is what they

(JH)Peter Zumthor, Intervjuoris, broj 73, godina 2012

Dobro je da ljudi imaju obadvije mogućnosti, ali na kraju mora i glava biti suglasna, inače ne mogu raditi.Oris — Možete li nam reći nešto o odnosu između arhitekta i investitora? Ima li slučajeva da su investitori ponekad preopterećeni zbog vaše sklonosti perfekciji, zbog želje da se sve napravi dobro i točno? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Investitori su uvijek ponešto preopterećeni, naime oko sredine građevnog procesa gube strpljenje, ali kada je zgrada dovršena, situacija je opet dobra, onda su zadovoljni. Mi radimo ekstremno točno i s golemom pažnjom. Na početku, još prije izvedbe, dok je sve još samo na riječima, investitori to vole: ‘Super je da radite tako precizno…’, ali nastaju teškoće kad to postaje stvarnost. Doživio sam to gotovo u svakom slučaju.Oris — Vi ste istovremeno također investitor dviju kuća u Leisu, u planinama, za vašu ženu i za vas, koje su vrlo razli či te od kuće u Haldensteinu. Što vas je navelo na tako radikalnu uporabu masivnog drveta? Duže vremena ste se bavili tradicionalnim građenjem u Graubündenu, čak ste o tome izdali i knjigu, jesu li te nove kuće refleks toga? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Iz dva sam razloga gradio drvetom. Jedan je da su tamo gore u planinama mnoga mjesta građena takvim gredama, pa se tako postaje novim susjedom iz iste obitelji. Za tako maleno mjesto to nije loše. Tamo nećemo reći – dolazim iz Amerike… To je moguće ako se hoće, no za mene je bila važna nova interpretacija sta rog načina građenja. Znam što je kod toga pozitivno, što su ne dos taci, što slabosti i što se mora napraviti. Imao sam ideju kako napraviti velike otvore, a da se takav način građenja ne povrije di. Drugi je razlog bio da je moja žena oduvijek željela drvenu kuću, a ja dijelim njeno mišljenje da se čovjek u takvoj kući osjeća posve drugačije nego u kući od betona. Fantastično je stanovati u kući od masivnog drva i to predstavlja gotovo luksuz, privilegiju.

Steilneset, spomenik žrtvama progona vještica

u Finnmarku, Vardø, Norveška, 2011.

osobnosti, kakva je, s druge strane, prema vašem sudu uloga inteligencije, intelektualnog čina u procesu projektiranja? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Za naš život je vrlo značajno da posje dujemo intuiciju, ali imamo i mozak. Mozak je sporiji od intuicije jer intuicija je neposredna, a mozak treba neko vrijeme da procesuira informacije. Intuicija je opsežna, široka, na neki način je nalik oštrom nožu. Stoga je vrlo važno da imam osjećaj kako mi intuicija govori da nešto učinim, a nakon te reakcije svojom pameću nastojim saznati zašto. No intuicija je prva. Dakako, mladi arhitekti, koji dolaze sa sveučilišta, navikli su da misle kako je dobro samo ono o čemu se može govoriti. Ako nešto možete dobro objasniti, moglo bi biti dobro. To je ono što uče u školi. Moraju naučiti da prvo dolazi intuitivna, emocionalna reakcija, a tek kada se to dogodilo, slijedi pitanje zašto je osjećaj takav kakav je. Budući da intelekt otkriva zašto je nešto dobro, zašto loše, iz kojeg razloga je nešto pogrešno, treba ga koristiti, ali ne obratno.Oris — Možete li objasniti na primjeru projekta Vals tu interakciju između intuicije i intelektualnosti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da opišem proces koji je trajao sedam godina? Bio je to kontinuirani proces. Proces je uvijek isti: prvo nastaje osjećaj. No moguće je također da imam apstraktnu ideju koja zvuči dobro, ali osjećaj će reći je li moguća ili nije. Kad osjećaj nije dobar, znači da moram saznati što nije u redu. To je kod svakog projekta isto – to je projektiranje. Neki ljudi kažu da je projektiranje odlučivanje, no dakako treba dati i formu. Takav je moj radni proces.Oris — Ali za proces je bolje ako je osjećaj snažniji od misli, od racionalnosti? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Želim reći kako osjećaj zna puno, a glavom ga se može kontrolirati ili glava zna mnogo toga, a osjećaj će onda kazati je li to ispravno.



the middle of the building process they lose patience, but when a building is completed the situation is good again, then they are satisfied. It is extreme how precisely we work and how much care is involved. In the beginning, even before execution, while everything is just words, investors are happy: ‘It is great, when you do things precisely...’ but difficulties arise when this becomes reality. I have experienced that in almost every case.Oris — You are also the investor in two houses in Leis as well, in the mountains, for you and for your wife. These are very different houses from the one in Haldenstein. What motivated you to use massive wood so radically? For quite some time, you dealt with traditional building in Graubünden; you even published a book about it. Are these houses a reflection of what you were dealing with? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I was building with wood for two reasons. One is that up there, in the mountains, many places were being built with such beams and if you build in such a manner then you become a new neighbour in the same family. It is not bad for such a small settlement. We will not say there ‘I am coming from


Oris — U kojoj vam je mjeri važna empatija pri projektiranju i građenju? Neki se arhitekti postavljaju u poziciju demijurga koji ljudima donosi dobro i lijepo. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Uvijek pokušavam zamisliti kakvu bih ja kuću volio, kako bih je nap ravio da pripada meni. Jedan od Kan tovih kategoričkih imperativa glasi uvijek u društvenoj zajednici djeluj tako kako bi sam htio da rade i drugi. Tako i nastojim djelovati pa nisam imao loših iskustava. Do sada je uvijek bilo tako da ako se meni dopadalo, onda se sviđalo i mnogim drugim ljudima.Oris — Kada govorite o građenju masivnim drvetom, predstav lja li to u vašem radu svjesno etičko opredjeljenje u od nosu na održivost? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Mislim da je održivost preduvjet, drvo je dio diskursa, no to je samo jedan od brojnih aspekata, nije prevladavajući aspekt. No, mislim da moramo o održivosti voditi računa koliko je moguće. Za ovu drvenu kuću mogli smo eventualno dobiti nagradu za energetsko građenje, tako je dobro izolirana i slično. Nakon što je sve provjereno, rečeno nam je da ne možemo

Steilneset Memorial for the Victims of the Witch Trials in the Finnmark, Vardø, Norway, 2011

(JH)

Steilneset, spomenik žrtvama progona vještica u Finnmarku, Vardø, Norveška, 2011.

(JH)


America...’ It is possible if one wants it, but for me, a new interpretation of the old way of building was important. I know what the positive sides are, what the disadvantages are, what the weaknesses are, and what has to be done. I had an idea how to create large openings without disturbing this style of building. Another reason was the fact that my wife always wanted a wooden house, and I agree with her opinion that a person feels completely different in such a house in comparison with a house made of concrete. In other words, massive wood is a fantastic surrounding, and residing in such a house is almost a luxury, a privilege.Oris — To what extent is empathy important to you while designing and while building? Some architects take the position of a demiurge, bringing people something good and beautiful. ¶ Peter Zumthor — I always try to imagine what kind of house I would like to have, how I would build it if it belonged to me. The German philosopher Kant said something like this: ‘In a community, always act in the same manner you would want others to act.’ In other words, the categorical imperative. This is how I try to act and I have not had bad experiences. It has always been like that so far, if I like something then many other people also like it.Oris — When you talk about building with massive wood, is there a conscious ethical commitment with regard to sustainability in your work? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I think

Almannajuvet ZincMine Museum, Sauda, Norway,

2003–, model

sustainability is a precondition, wood is part of the discourse, nevertheless this is merely one among a number of aspects, it is not a predominant aspect. But I think we should take sustainability into consideration as much as possible. This wooden house could have possibly won us an award for energy efficient building: it is well insulated and so on. After everything was checked, we were told we could not be given the award due to one big window facing northeast. This window has a view of a beautiful mountain.Oris — Another large theme would be building in a context. You used to work for a number of years in canton Graubünden in the Department for the Preservation of Monuments. Therefore, you must have acquired a good relation to buildings of the past. An excellent example of that is certainly the Kolumba project. We think that in this case the sentence ‘The new enables us to see the old better’ is very true here. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, sometimes it is true that one can better see the old in such a case. The new has to develop a positive relation to the old. The new must not say that it is much better than the old. A certain respect has to exist here. It is very important to me that the old should command respect, although naturally that is not the case with everything which is old.Oris — In Kolumba, this is of particular importance in the archaeological hall. In order to show the old, an entirely new material was invented, ‘Kolumba bricks’, and this enables bringing light and atmosphere to excavations. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Actually, I have never seen a good something around excavations... something that would create an atmosphere. I attempted to create a frame that can help in seeing the old, that can make it appear in the beautiful light in space.Oris — An entire historical continuum of the place is displayed there – from Roman times, to the Middle Ages, to the fifties, to the chapel by Gottfried Böhm. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, it is like a time machine.Oris — It is impossible not to see spirituality in your work. I do not refer here to epithets assigned to you in publications, like ‘the mystic’, ‘the shaman’ and similar. But, for example, the new project in Norway for the witches from Vardø is related to the history of a place and human history. There is also that wonderful object by Louise Bourgeois there. It is all marvellous. What was the process of finding this long line in which a special cell was anticipated for each victim? ¶ Peter Zumthor — A window; there is a special window for each individual victim and a text with her biography. Since there were 91 victims there, the building became long; we can


Švicarski Sound Box, švicarski paviljon za Expo 2000., Hannover, Njemačka, 2000.

Swiss Sound Box, Swiss Pavilion Expo 2000, Hannover, Germany, 2000

(TF)

dobiti nagradu, jer je jedan veliki prozor orijentiran prema sjeveroistoku. Taj prozor ima pogled na lijepu planinu.Oris — Još jedna velika tema bila bi građenje u kontekstu. Radili ste ovdje u Kantonu Graubünden više godina u Službi za zaštitu spomenika. Zacijelo ste tako stekli dobar odnos prema povijesnoj gradnji. Izvrstan primjer za to je dakako projekt Muzeja Kolumba. Mislim da je tu vrlo istinita re če ni ca Novo nam omogućuje da staro vidimo bolje. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, katkada je to tako da je onda staro moguće vidjeti bolje. Novo mora razviti pozitivan odnos prema sta rome, ali ne smije reći da je mnogo bolje od starog. Mora pos tojati određeno poštovanje. To mi je vrlo važno, ali samo ako staro zaslužuje poštovanje, što naravno nije slučaj sa svime što je staro.Oris — U Muzeju Kolumbe to posebno dolazi do izražaja u ar heo loš koj dvorani. Da bi se pokazalo staro, iznađen je pos ve novi materijal, ‘Kolumbaopeka’, što je omogućilo do vo đenje svjetlosti i atmosfere do iskopina. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Zapravo nikada nisam vidio nešto dobro kod iskopina… ništa što bi izazvalo ugođaj. Nastojao sam napraviti okvir koji može pomoći da se vidi staro, da se u prostoru pojavljuje u lijepom svjetlu.Oris — Tamo se pokazuje cijeli povijesni kontinuitet mjesta – od rimskog razdoblja, preko srednjeg vijeka do pe de se tih godina, do kapele Gottfrieda Böhma. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, to je poput vremeplova.

Muzej rudnika cinka Almannajuvet, Sauda,

Norveška, 2003.–, maketa

(APZ)

Oris — Nemoguće je u vašem radu previdjeti spiritualnost, ali ne mislim pritom na za vas u publicistici upotrebljavane epitete poput mističara, šamana i slično. No, na primjer novi projekt u Norveškoj za vještice iz Vardøa povezan je s povijesti mjesta i ljudskom povijesti. Tu je još i krasni objekt Louise Bourgeois. Kakav je bio proces pronalaženja toga dugačkog niza u kojem je za svaku žrtvu predviđena posebna ćelija? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Prozor, za svaku pojedinu žrtvu je tamo poseban prozor i tekst s njenim životopisom. Kako je tamo bila 91 žrtva, zgrada je postala dugačka, kroz nju možemo prolaziti i čitati 91 biografiju. Predložio sam Louise Bourgeois za kreiranje umjetničke instalacije. Ta dugačka građevina s prozorima bila je moja ideja na koju su me potakle dvije stvari koje sam tamo vidio. Naime u Skandinaviji me se dojmilo da kada su tamo ljudi kod kuće, jedan je prozor osvijetljen, to je njihova tradicija. Druga su stvar bili dugački stalci za sušenje ribe koje nalazimo kod starije arhitekture. Nakon što sam to vidio, forma je prirodno proizašla iz toga. To sam i objasnio prigodom inauguracije, a poslije sam saznao da su mještani prvi put rekli: ‘O, pa to ima veze s nama.’ Opet ću ići tamo i održati predavanje za školu i za mještane.


pass through the building and read 91 biographies. I suggested that Louise Bourgeois create the artistic installation. My idea was this long building with windows. I was impressed in Scandinavia by the fact that when people are at home there, one window is lighted. This is Nordic tradition. The other thing was the fact that we can find long racks for drying fish there in older architecture. If this was visible, the form is understandable. On the occasion of the inauguration, I said that I had this idea when I saw the racks for drying fish and lighted windows in the houses. Later on, I found out that the locals for first time said: ‘Oh, but this has something to do with us.’ I will go there again and hold a lecture for the school and local inhabitants.Oris — Therefore, they can identify with it and see that their history is revalorized. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Exactly.Oris — But, there is yet another project for Norway... ¶ Peter Zumthor — Yes, the Almannajuvet Zinc Mine Museum in Sauda. These are abandoned mines. The project has not been completed yet. It will not be finished until next year.Oris — What is the project like in programmatic sense? ¶ Peter Zumthor — It partly contains local history: there are zinc mines, and one should also take into consideration the fact that this small settlement, Sauda, a small industrial and fishing town at the end of the world, has certain social needs and therefore there is a cafe there and several other possibilities which are at the disposal of the local population. And then, there is also the museum, there is not much to show. One writer published a book, an anthology of mining, about existence underground; it described objects, the originals of which can be seen in this museum. There are tours through the museum with a guide. It is a typical project and I participated in development of the programme for this project.Oris — You said it is almost an ideal situation working with just one investor. What makes a commission ideal? ¶ Peter Zumthor — I need somebody who trusts me, who likes the way I work, who likes what I do. There has to be trust. If a commission is of solely commercial character, I am not interested.Oris — Some of your works have been held by their owners for some twenty years already. Are your clients equally happy in these buildings after ten, twenty years? ¶ Peter Zumthor — They all say they are very happy. I do not like some of them, but they are happy with their houses. They are the best advocates of my work; not words, plans or models, but a completed building is the proof. Nevertheless, to get there is sometimes not easy at all.


Oris — Dakle mogu se identificirati i vide da je njihova povijest revalorizirana. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Upravo tako.Oris — Ali postoji još jedan projekt za Norvešku. ¶ Peter Zumthor — Da, Muzej rudnika cinka Almannjuvet u Saudi. To su napušteni rudnici. Projekt još nije dovršen, bit će gotov tek sljedeće godine.Oris — Kakav je projekt u programskom smislu? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Djelomično sadrži lokalnu povijest, odnosno rudnike cinka, a treba voditi računa i o činjenici da to malo mjesto Sauda, mali industrijski i ribarski gradić na kraju svijeta, ima izvjesne socijalne potrebe, zato se tamo nalazi i kavana i nekoliko drugih mogućnosti koje stoje na raspolaganju mješ ta nima. Zatim je tu muzej u kojem nema mnogo toga za pokazati. Jedan književnik je izdao knjigu, antologiju rudarstva, o egzistenciji ispod zemlje; opisuje objekte koji se mogu vidjeti u originalu u tom muzeju. Ima vođenih raz gledavanja rudnika. To je tipičan projekt u kojem sam sudje lovao u razvijanju programa.Oris — Rekli ste da je gotovo idealna situacija ako radite s jednim jedinim investitorom. Što čini neku narudžbu idealnom? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Potreban mi je netko tko ima u mene povjerenja, tko voli moj način rada, kome se sviđa to što radim. Mora postojati povjerenje. Ako narudžba ima samo komercijalni karakter, nisam zainteresiran.Oris — Neki vaši radovi su već dvadesetak godina u posjedu svojih vlasnika. Jesu li investitori i nakon deset, dvadeset godina sretni u tim zgradama? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Kažu da su svi vrlo sretni. Neke od njih ne volim, ali oni su sretni s kućama. One su najbolji advokati mog rada, a ne riječi, planovi ili modeli – dovršena zgrada je dokaz. No ponekad taj put nije nimalo lagan.Oris — Spomenula bih jednu vašu zgradu, vjerojatno ih je više, koja nije bila građena da traje – zgrada za Expo Hannover. Što se dogodilo s njom? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Bila je prodana za potrebe građenja kuća.Oris — Dakle bila je uspješno reciklirana. Znate li što će se u budućnosti dogoditi s paviljonom Serpentine u Londonu? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Bit će uništen. Biljke će poslati u Yorkshire jer ih je tamo kupila jedna dama. Mi ćemo napraviti novu verziju za Nîmes u Francuskoj, bit će to ista geometrija s novim materijalom i novim biljkama prikladnim za Francusku.Oris — Možda još jedno pitanje o utjecajima koji ne potječu samo iz domene građenog, iz arhitekture, već su mnogostruki, a odnose se na glazbu, na literaturu. Jesu li to tek poticaji ili postoji dublja povezanost, na primjer, s literaturom? Sada ne bih govorila o Adalbertu Stifteru, koji je vjerojatno prije bio

Peter Zumthor, Terme Vals, Graubünden, Švicarska, 1996.

Peter Zumthor, Therme Vals, Graubünden, Switzerland, 1996

(MS)


Oris — I know that one of the buildings, but probably there are more than one, was not built to last – the Expo Hannover building. So, what happened to that building? ¶ Peter Zumthor — It was sold in order to build houses.Oris — In other words, it was successfully recycled. Do you know what will happen with the Serpentine Pavilion in London in the future? ¶ Peter Zumthor — It will be demo lished. The plants will be removed to Yorkshire, a lady there bought them. We will make a new version for Nîmes in France. It will have the same geometry, but with new material: new plants suitable for France.Oris — Perhaps one more question about influences that do not originate merely from the domain of the constructed, from architecture, but are manifold, relate to music, to literature. Are these solely motivation or is there a more profound connection, for example, with literature? I would not like to talk about Adalbert Stifter at the moment, who was probably important before. Nonetheless, perhaps something else is significant now, even another kind of music, earlier it was probably jazz. Has this then been intertwined and interwoven in your work because you said somewhere: ‘Everything refers to everything else.’ ¶ Peter Zumthor — Exactly. But, this is nothing special; it is like with all other people. When we read or listen to something, sometimes this and sometimes that can inspire us in our own work. Still, I have to say that what my wife and I did in Vals in terms of architecture as well as contents concerning the hotel concept – there was so much involvement in literature, contemporary music and art – people there did not understand it. I think that I know quite a lot, I am interested in culture, I have had a lot of experience, I am curious, I have some knowledge about art, about contemporary music, about old music, and certainly about literature. It is a wide range of interests that is typical for numerous other artists and intellectuals.Oris — You live in a village. Do you need peace, isolation from worldly events in order to really work in peace and undisturbed? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Actually it’s a coincidence that I don’t live in Basel at the moment, it doesn’t have anything to do with architecture, but coincidences can be good as well. I am content; I think it’s just fine here. I don’t go that often to the cinema here; in Zurich, I would perhaps have to go to the cinema much more frequently. I would have to give fewer interviews and go to the cinema more frequently.


važan, ali možda je sada nešto drugo, pa i neka druga glazba, prije je to vjerojatno bio jazz. Jesu li u vaše djelo upleteni i utkani svi ti utjecaji jer negdje ste rekli: ‘Sve upućuje na sve?’ ¶ Peter Zumthor — Upravo tako. No to nije ništa naročito, to je kao u svih ljudi. Kada čitamo i slušamo, može nas u vlas titom radu inspirirati ponekad ovo, a ponekad ono. Ipak moram reći da to što smo moja žena i ja napravili u Valsu u arhi tektonskom, ali i u sadržajnom smislu u pogledu hotelskog koncepta, ljudi tamo nisu razumjeli koliko je tu bilo bavljenja literaturom, suvremenom glazbom i umjetnošću. Zanima me kultura, mnogo sam doživio, radoznao sam, ponešto se razumijem u umjetnost, u suvremenu glazbu, u staru glazbu i sva kako u literaturu. To je široka lepeza interesa koja je svojstvena i brojnim drugim umjetnicima i intelektualcima.Oris — Živite na selu, je li vam potreban mir, odvojenost od vanjskih zbivanja kako biste mogli zaista mirno i nesmetano raditi? ¶ Peter Zumthor — Zapravo je to slučajnost, nema veze s arhitekturom da sada ne živim u Baselu, ali i slučajevi mogu biti dobri. Zadovoljan sam, mislim da mi je ovdje posve dobro. Ovdje ne idem tako često u kino, a u Zürichu bih možda išao znatno češće. Morao bih davati manje intervjua i ići češće u kino.

Documents

emocija – to of Emotion je ono o čemu sanjam I Dream of · (Peter Zumthor, Hortus Conclusus, 2011.) ¶ In the same manner he contemplates life Peter Zumthor ... like to contribute