Drink Tea Eat Cake Sample

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Drink Tea,

Eat Cake

Talks and Dialogues on

Non-duality and Liberation

Richard Sylvester

with a foreword by Tony Parsons

Non-Duality Press


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DRINK TEA, EAT CAKE

First English language edition published October 2011by Non-Duality Press

Originally published in 2011 by Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbHunder the title: Wer braucht eigentlich Nirwana?

Richard Sylvester 2011 Non-Duality Press 2011

Richard Sylvester has asserted his right under the Copyright, Designs

and Patents Act, 1988, to be identified as author of this work.All rights reservedNo part of this book may be reproduced or utilized in any form orby any means, electronic or mechanical, without prior permission

in writing from the Publisher.

Non-Duality Press | PO Box 2228 | Salisbury | SP2 2GZUnited Kingdom

www.non-dualitypress.com

Isbn: 978-1-908664-01-3


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To Tony, Claire, Jen and Eckhard. You have all inspired this

book in different ways.

I do nothing. I never think that I am the one who must see to

it that cherries grow on stalks.

C. G. Jung

Memories, Dreams, Reflections


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vii

Contents

Foreword by Tony Parsons ...................................................ix

Introduction .........................................................................xi

1. Love In A Fur Coat ..........................................................1

2. The Lost Sutra Of Lord Buddha .................................... 91

3. Spiritual Anarchy ........................................................ 171

4. What About Love? ...................................................206

5. There Are A Thousand Different People

Inside Your Head. .......................................................232

6. The Hotel Kitsch ........................................................257


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ix

Foreword

During the last decade the terms non-dual and Advaita have

been used for a multitude of publications, teachings and com-

munications of all kinds which, in my view, do not have anydirect relevance to the real meaning and dynamic that those

words point to. The titles non-dual and Advaita attempt to

describe the principle of wholeness, unicity or that which is

already at one.

A unified reality in which there are not two or there is

no other surely confirms the illusory nature of separation. If

separation is illusory, then any attempt to not be separate is

rooted in a dualistic perspective. So the basic principle of any

teaching which attempts to transform an illusory state of being

separate into a state of at-oneness is based on the belief in a

divided reality and cannot therefore claim to be non-dual.

It is rare to find a communication on this subject that isnt

anything other than a dualistic and therefore prescriptive teach-

ing of becoming. It is rare to find a spiritual message that isnt

anything other than a blueprint for personal effort and change.

It is rare to find a work that is devoid of any agenda to satisfy

the seekers need to be given a path or a purpose to follow.

However, Richards latest book is just such a rarity, together

with his previous works.

In Drink Tea, Eat Cake everything that is expressed aboutthe nature of non-duality has a fundamental principle run-

ning through it. Every response to a rich variety of questions

points unwaveringly towards the non-dual perspective. He

shares his experiences of his previous trip to Germany together


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with interesting and usually relevant stories. The reader is car-

ried along and inspired by an expression that comes out of a

deep and rich experience of life with all of its complexity andhumour. As the reader progresses through the book a recogni-

tion can arise of a constancy and an uncompromising integrity

that speaks directly of something other There is a sense of

a resonance that is beyond the words and the meaning that they

seem to carry.

He responds to questions about death, the natural state of

being, the guru game, the nature of love, the difference betweennatural and neurotic feelings, the attraction that the seeking

mind has for struggle and complexity and much more.

Here is a book to savour, to chuckle with and to keep and

refer to as a rare work of undiluted non-dualism.

Tony Parsons


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xi

Introduction

One day my German publisher, Carl, who was in London to

attend a book fair, phoned me and suggested we meet up. So

on a Sunday afternoon I travelled up to London and we spenta couple of hours talking and drinking coffee in the bar of the

Radisson Hotel in Covent Garden.

My second book about non-duality, The Book Of No One

was due to be published in Germany the following spring and

Carl proposed that I come to Germany at that time and give a

series of talks to publicise the book. He would accompany me

around the country and act as my interpreter. Usually I dont

travel very far from my home in Kent, except for regular trips

to the mountains and coasts of Wales, but this sounded like it

might be fun so I agreed. When he was back in Germany, Carl

phoned me again and suggested that we record all the meetings

during my tour and that I edit the transcripts into a third book.

What you have in your hands, or on your lap, or on your coffee

table or duvet, or on the bus or train, or lying next to you on the

grass on a sunny day in the park, is the result.

I visited seven cities in nine days, travelling between each by

train and as you will read becoming ill between the fourth and

fifth cities, Berlin and Hamburg. This added a little unexpected

excitement to the tour. So this book is what it is. Each chapter

is a record of a different meeting, except there was no record-ing equipment at my last venue so that one is missing, apart

from a couple of stories that I remember telling there and have

included here. As each meeting was in a way an introduction

to non-duality there is necessarily some repetition. During the


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

tour I was treated most generously, put up in hotels, taken to

restaurants and bars and driven from railway stations to hotels

and from hotels to talk venues in cream-coloured Mercedestaxis.

There is a lively and sophisticated interest in non-duality

in Germany, just as there is in England. This is not true of

every country. When my first book, I Hope You Die Soon, was

published in France, I was warned to expect low sales and no

royalties because, according to my informant, They are still

into urine-drinking yogis there. I have no idea if the commentabout yogis is true but I can confirm that the prediction about

royalties proved accurate.

A friend who kindly read this book as it was being com-

pleted commented that its likely readers would include seekers

who are ready to stop. Certainly if you are still heartily enjoy-

ing your spiritual search, it is probably best that you put down

this book right now and also make a mental note never to go to

a talk on non-duality, not even once. If what is written here or is

spoken at a talk is really heard, that will be the end of spiritual

seeking and your head will be in the tigers mouth. Then there

will be no escape.

Spiritual seeking can, of course, be great fun and very

entertaining. It can provide us with hope, meaning and pur-

pose, a comforting circle of like-minded friends, the company

of charismatic teachers and gurus and a means of disposing of

our surplus income. It can also give us an excellent way of struc-

turing much of the time that we have between birth and death

and provide us with almost endless opportunities to travel to

exotic destinations equipped with arms full of vaccinations and

rucksacks full of diarrhoea pills.But seeking also guarantees that we do not find, because it

takes us away from presence. As long as we are looking for the

secret of enlightenment over there in some far away place and

some future time, we cannot notice that this is already it right


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xiii

INTRODUCTION

here, right now. This is already that which we seek, the prom-

ised land, the hoped-for paradise. But the person can never see

this. This can only be seen when the person falls away. Whenthe self is there, muddying the view with its neuroses and its

incessant shouting for attention, then it cannot be seen that this

is it and this is sufficient.

These seven words, This is it and this is sufficient, are the

most simple way I have ever found to sum up liberation. When

oneness is seen, which can only happen when the person is not

there to see it, then it is realised not only that this is all thereis, but that this is enough. When the grimy veil of the person

is not there diminishing and taking for granted the everyday,

and clamouring for something more exciting to happen, then

the ordinary becomes transformed into this wonderful play of

consciousness.

Seeing oneness is the end of searching, because when the

everyday is seen as a miracle there is no need to search for any-

thing else to spice up life with. The leaves rustling in the wind,

the texture of a dogs coat as it is stroked in the park, the taste of

fresh coffee on the verandah of the caf are seen to be enough.

This is why, although liberation has no necessary implications,

there tends to be relaxation and a profound enjoyment of simple

things when the person has dropped away.

Many of us today are breaking away from the old adversarial

habits of religion and seeking for the common inner core that

we feel must lie at the heart of all religions and spiritual paths.

We are no longer focussing only on the astonishingly colourful

surface differences. We are trying instead to find the shared

hidden truth beneath. Something, we feel, must connect images

as disparate as the crucifixion, Ganesh the elephant-headedGod, Father Sun and Mother Moon, the communion supper,

Kali with her necklace of human skulls, mandalas, whirling Sufi

mystics, Golden Buddha statues, medicine wheels and Isis the

River Goddess.


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

Non-duality, oneness, lies at the still centre of all religions

and spiritual paths, although it is rarely acknowledged and

has been little spoken about throughout history. Although weare each born into wholeness, at an early age we acquire self-

consciousness, and in that process a sense of separation and

loss arises. Somehow we feel that we have been thrown out of

paradise, and whether this is recognised consciously or not, we

spend our life trying to make ourself whole again so that we

can re-enter paradise. We have wonderful imaginations and an

enormous capacity for telling stories, and the great evolutionarytree of religions, of spiritual paths, of the sagas of prophets and

gods and holy men and holy madmen, is the result of our forlorn

and hopeless search.

Our search is hopeless because we never lost paradise. The

paradise which we seek to re-enter is always with us, but hidden

by the presence of the separated self. We do not need to find

paradise, we need to lose our sense of separation to see that this is

already it. But the separated self is unable to lose itself, precisely

because it is a false self. The false self is unable to see reality.

The eye cannot see itself

Except as a pale reflection in a mirror.

The self cannot find itself

Except as a pale reflection in a dream.

Nevertheless, uncaused and unprompted, the false self can drop

away and in that death of the person wholeness, unity, non-

duality can be seen again. The false self may drop away while

the individual is still alive but it need be of no concern if it does

not, because at the death of the body there is only liberationin any case. I am writing these words five days after the death

of Ramesh Balsekar, who wrote, What does death ultimately

mean? It means the end of the struggle of daily living. It means

the end of duality.


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INTRODUCTION

In the seeing of non-duality (in liberation which is the same

thing) it is seen that there is no person with autonomy and

responsibility who makes choices about something called theirlife. It is also seen that everything arises out of nothing, that at

the heart of this wonderful manifestation there is emptiness.

This emptiness has been realised and spoken about in many

traditions, in Buddhism, in Taoism and in Hinduism, for exam-

ple, and even in Christianity. Sometimes it has been spoken

about openly. Sometimes it has only been whispered about, for

there have been many times when it has been very dangerousto speak about this, because of the terrible power wielded by

priesthoods. Recently, however, there has been a new phenom-

enon. The views that there is no person who makes any choice,

and that everything arises out of emptiness, are now supported

by science.

Developments in neuroscience suggest strongly that there

is no possibility of there being a unified autonomous person at

the centre of our experience. Many psychologists now agree

that free will is an illusion. And quantum physicists give us a

picture of the universe in which even the smallest elements of

matter disintegrate into mere vibrating energy, in which every-

thing manifests, as it were, from sound. It is said in the Yogic

tradition that the root mantra Aum is the first and original

vibration of the universe. In the beginning was the word, and

the word was Aum.

Nevertheless, in spite of this coming together of science and

mysticism, the views of materialist science and of non-duality

about the nature of consciousness are diametrically opposed.

Science sees matter as primary, and conciousness as an acciden-

tal by-product of matter. It claims that we are essentially physi-cal structures which have developed consciousness by chance

because of the increasing complexity of the organisation of

cells, neurons, chemicals and electrical impulses in our brains.

In other words, without matter there is no consciousness. But


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

in liberation it is seen that there is only consciousness, which

is the same as saying that there is only emptiness out of which

all phenomena, including physical phenomena, arise. In otherwords, without consciousness there is no matter.

The physical does not give rise to consciousness. Conscious-

ness gives rise to the physical. Science can never discover this. It

can only be discovered by direct seeing when the person drops

away.

Nor, for all its instruments, can science discover that the

ultimate nature of emptiness is unconditional love.Finally, why is the title of this bookDrink Tea, Eat Cake?

When liberation is seen life tends to become less complicated.

All the stories that may have fuelled our life drop away and we

are left with the simplicity of this. In that simplicity, the small

and ordinary things in life may really be enjoyed. I am often

asked for advice and I usually refuse to give it. But if I were

to give advice, it would be to relax and enjoy whatever simple

things you like doing. It doesnt have to be drinking tea and

eating cake. It might be drinking coffee and walking round the

park. But until the everyday can be enjoyed, the miracle of this

is being missed.

In Zen they say Before liberation, hew wood and draw

water. After liberation, hew wood and draw water. I prefer

Before liberation, drink tea and eat cake. After liberation,

drink tea and eat cake. But they add up to the same. There

is no difference. Before liberation and after liberation, being

asleep and being awake, are the same thing.

An alternative title that was suggested for this book was

The Tigers Mouth, a phrase from Ramana Maharshi, who said

Your head is already in the tigers mouth, and there is noescape. Many people who come across nonduality find that

it gives rise to no interest in them and they go away, either

never to return or perhaps to return much later. But if you

come across nonduality and it seizes you, as it seized me, as an


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xvii

INTRODUCTION

inescapable obsession, then as Ramana said, Your head is in

the tigers mouth and there is nothing left to be done other

than wait until the tiger bites your head off.

A Note On Communication and Translation

Trying to communicate any idea, no matter how simple, to

another person is fraught with difficulty. The words that leave

my mouth or pen may not properly convey my thoughts andfeelings. The words that you then hear or read may mean

something a little different, or entirely different, to what they

mean to me. Somehow we try to move towards some kind of

shared meaning, but we will never really know to what degree

we achieve this. Essentially, in this as in all other ways, we each

live in our own reality. The universe that we inhabit is ours and

ours alone.

In trying to communicate about nonduality, the problems

become compounded. Nonduality is not an experience, it is not

a phenomenon of any kind. Rather, nonduality is that which

gives rise to all experience, while also encompassing all experi-

ence itself. Words describe phenomena. Words cannot describe

nonduality. Even the simple choice as to whether to use the

word nonduality or oneness or nothing or no-one or being

or consciousness or awareness proliferates confusion and gives

rise to a great deal of conflict and debate, even sometimes lead-

ing to web-rage, which is the internet equivalent of road-rage,

on internet forums.

Now, to add a little extra fun to the proceedings, let us

compound the difficulty even more by tossing in the furtherproblems of translating from one language to another, as hap-

pened on this tour. There has now opened up an even richer

field of possible misunderstanding. Consider poor Carl. There

are concepts in one culture that are lacking in another, as well


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

as allusions that are invariably lost in translation, summed up

by Eugene Ionesco who wrote The French for London is Paris.

And Carl didnt just have to translate my words into Germanfor the audience, and the audiences words into English for me.

There were also people in the audience who spoke English to

a greater or lesser degree. They would call out questions and

comments in English which I would answer, leaving Carl having

to intervene and stop us so that he could translate both of us

for the non-English speakers in the room. And sometimes Carl

would translate a question for me which he had not understoodin German and I did not understand in English, even though he

had translated literally what had been said. No wonder his head

hurt before the end of the tour.

You get the point, I hope. No need to labour it further.


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1. Love In A Fur Coat

Wherever possible, trains are the only way to travel. Unlike cars,

we dont need to drive them. Unlike aeroplanes, they dont suf-

fer from turbulence. So one sunny Friday afternoon at Colognerailway station my publisher, Carl, met me and whisked me by

taxi to my hotel. He then produced a tiny recording device and

began to study the instructions intently and, it seemed to me as

I watched him, with great puzzlement. As the main rationale

for this tour was to be the production of a new book from the

talks which I was to give, a lot seemed to depend on the effec-

tiveness of this very small device and Carls ability to work out

how to use it.

A few hours later Carl, who was also to act as my interpreter,

and I sat in the back room of a charming shop and therapy centre

which sold books, angel cards, little buddha ornaments, crystals

and incense. On the table between us was the dodgy-looking

recording machine. It was clear that the shop and centre was

being run as an act of love rather than from any real expectation

of making a profit. The small back room was already filling up

and the large Buddha statue in the corner had to be carried

reverently into the massage room next door to make room for

more living, breathing beings. The talk was given to a group of

knowledgeable, curious people, including the kindly lady who

owned the shop and a couple of young men who seemed toknow a lot about spiritual philosophy. Another lady, it quickly

became clear, was suffering from a deep emotional upset. She

continually wrung her hands, sighed deeply and talked animat-

edly to her neighbours. She seemed both unhappy and angry.


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

**********

Cologne Friday Evening

As I sit here I am thinking that I am the only person in this

room who doesnt know whats going on. That seems quite

appropriate to me.

I remember a time when I thought that I knew a lot, but

now I know very little, and I know less and less as time goes by.I hope that at some time in the future I will get to a point where

I know nothing at all.

By the way, Carl and I have not worked like this together

before. So this is a great experiment tonight.

Isnt this a lovely room? Isnt it beautiful? It has such a nice

energy.

(Someone comments rather impishly) Perhaps the Buddha should

be brought back in?

Yes, we could bring the Buddha back in but you might all want

your money back if we did that.

Perhaps you have come along to hear me speak about some-

thing, but as far as I am concerned I have come here to talk

about nothing. I mean that in a very literal way. I will talk about

nothing or the No-thing from which everything arises. I want

to suggest to you that when the person is not there, when the

self is not there, it becomes obvious that everything arises out

of nothing.

In a way, it is a puzzle why this isnt obvious when the personis there, but the reason for that is very simple. It is because the

person is blocking out the view of nothing. The person seems

so solid and it blocks out the view so successfully that nothing

doesnt get a look-in. Nothing doesnt get a chance to be seen.


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(To Carl) This is really an interesting experiment for me.

(Laughing quietly) I have a very bad memory so I am finding that

I cant remember the beginning of a sentence when we finallyget to the end of it together. The stopping and starting required

by this translation is extremely unusual for me.

What I will do is talk for a while and then we will have

questions and answers and some discussion. Having said that,

please interrupt me at any time if you want to ask a question or

make a comment or even an objection.

Lets get back to talking about nothing and everything,the nothing from which everything arises, and the everything

which arises from nothing. Traditionally, the metaphor of the

ocean and the waves is often used to explain what we are talk-

ing about here. Im sure that most of you know this metaphor.

The waves represent everything that is going on for the person

in everyday life, the stuff of our everyday experience. We all

know that at times this can be very intense, the waves can be

very choppy indeed. The ocean represents oneness, silence, the

stillness from which everything arises. While we are entranced

by the waves, while they seem to be the only thing that is going

on for us, it is impossible for us to recognise the ocean as well.

But of course we know that the waves are simply the ocean, that

there isnt any difference between the waves and the ocean. We

could say that the waves are the ocean waving. They are the

ocean saying Hi.

(Carl, laughing) In German, I am waving is different to the

oceans waves.

(To Carl, laughing) Oh, so we have a problem of translationalready?

(Carl, laughing) Yes, we already have a problem. OK, our experi-

ment has failed.


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Then let me try another image. Imagine you are in a little boat

on the surface of the ocean. You have no chance of experiencing

the stillness of the ocean deep below you, because your boat isrocking up and down, just like life rocks you up and down. The

only thing that the person is usually aware of is the waves. This

is what life is like for most of us, most of the time. This is the

state of separation in which 99.9% of us live.

This state of separation doesnt arise straight away when we

are born. We are born into a state of unity with no awareness

of separation whatsoever. But after a while self-consciousnessand a sense of separation arise. They arise together, when we

are still very young.

In a way self-consciousness and a sense of separation are the

same thing. Think about what being self-conscious means. It

means that I become conscious of myself. I become conscious of

myself as separate from mummy, daddy, brother, sister, every-

one and everything in the space around me.

Once separation has occurred, I have started on this great

adventure called Being A Person. All the adults, all the big

people around me, conspire to help me in this great adventure

of separation because they all believe in it too. They all believe

that they are separate and they even see it as their duty to help

me to become successfully separate. So they are very helpful

indeed, giving me what they think are great gifts, such as a

sense of responsibility, a sense of duty and of morality, perhaps

a religion, some rules so that I can become really good at this

business of living. They are like the faeries at Sleeping Beautys

christening, bringing her gifts. Some of these gifts turn out to

be very toxic.

Being A Person is ambivalent. It is fun, it is exciting and itis also a real pain.

Once I believe that I am an individual, I feel separate from

the world and of course that brings a feeling of vulnerability. I

will probably have been given a long list of instructions about


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5

LOVE IN A FUR COAT

how to become a successful individual, perhaps even a happy

individual, in spite of the evidence that nobody has ever man-

aged to do that before me.We all know what these instructions consist of. Here you

are, Richard, youre an individual. Get yourself an education, a

job, a relationship. Have children and get yourself a big car. Ill

have a Mercedes as we are in Germany.

(Someone shouts out) We like Bentleys better.

A Bentley! Get yourself a Bentley and you are really successful!

Once I am an individual, theres dissatisfaction to be over-

come, so the message that I can become successful is honey to

my ears.

(Carl looks puzzled. Richard turns to him. It turns out later that

he has unconsciously invented this rather sticky metaphor, thereby

setting Carl a considerable problem of translation.)

Honey to my ears doesnt work?

(Carl, struggling but doing his best to make sense of this) Honey

to my ears sounds paradoxical. We have music to my ears, but

honeys nice

O.k. Well stick with honey, though I am wondering if I have

just made that metaphor up.

Being a person, being an individual, automatically involves

dissatisfaction. As soon as there is a sense of separation, the

simplicity of this ( Richard gestures round the room to indicate theordinary and the everyday) is not enough anymore. But when we

are one month old this is enough, and if the person drops away

then suddenly this will be enough again.

Really that is it. That is all I have got to say. We could all


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

go home now. That really is the core of what this meeting is

about. When the person drops away, it is the return to paradise

because this (Richard gestures round the room again) is seen to beenough. It is seen that there is nothing missing in this, so how

could this not be paradise?

Another way of describing the sense of separation which

happens at such a young age, is that we are thrown out of para-

dise. This is what the biblical creation myth and many other

creation myths are about. Self-consciousness separates us from

oneness and then suddenly this is not enough anymore. We havegot to have this plus a Bentley or this plus a better relationship

or a better job or more money or a bigger house. We have got to

have this with a cherry on top.

When I use the word liberation, all I mean is the return

to paradise which happens when the sense of being a separate

person drops away. In this return to paradise, it is noticed that

this is already enough. This doesnt need anything added, it

is already the promised land. This is already what we are all

searching for.

It really is that simple.

So what are we doing here? What are we searching for in

this place? This (Richard waves his hands round the room), this

(Richard points to the wall), this (Richard embraces the space

around himself) is already the promised land. This is already the

fascinating stuff, the fascinating perfection, which we think we

are searching for. If we cannot see that, it is only because we are

searching for it and because we are in the way.

It should be obvious that as long as we are searching, we

cannot notice that this is already what we are searching for,

precisely because we are searching for it. Searching means weare looking for it somewhere else, so we cannot be noticing that

this is already it.

Look at this. (Richard takes a flower from a nearby vase and

strokes it.) Isnt it lovely? What could we possibly add to this


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LOVE IN A FUR COAT

flower through any kind of searching? It is perfect in itself.

What stops us from seeing its perfection is simply the sense

that I am a person with a responsibility for this terrible burdencalled my life.

I received an e-mail the other day from a woman in Amster-

dam who was celebrating the realization of hopelessness. It

might sound paradoxical to celebrate hopelessness but I would

like to suggest to you that hope is a terrible burden. Hope and

dissatisfaction are the opposite sides of the same coin. They

usually walk hand in hand through our lives. Dissatisfactionleads to hope. Hope almost invariably leads to dissatisfaction.

This woman expressed the wonderful relief that came from

realising her hopelessness. When we realise our hopelessness,

then so much of the burden that we carry through life can fall

away. (Richard gives a deep sigh to demonstrate this relief.)

But nevertheless she cant do it herself? She cant bring about this

relief herself?

No she cant. This is one of the most the frustrating things

about this communication.

People often ask me for recommendations, but I have no

recommendations to make. What is more, I dont need to make

any because, as you know, there are hundreds of teachers and

gurus who are happy to give you recommendations. You defi-

nitely do not need another person sitting here giving you yet

more recommendations.

But if I did have a recommendation it would be to relax.

Unfortunately, as you have just said, of course the person can-

not do that.

(Someone in the audience speaks in German for quite a long time.

Carl asks her) Shall I try to sum this up?


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RICHARD SYLVESTER

This is a strange experience for me. (Laughing) In my talks in

England I often feel that I dont know what is going on, but here

I feel it especially strongly.

(Carl to Richard) Ill try again. Nearly all people have problems

with fear. When you say that relaxation is to be recommended, then

of course it should be helpful on the way to salvation. Meditation

should be helpful as well in diminishing our fear and helping us to

continue on the way until were there. (Laughter from some mem-

bers of the audience who have begun to tune in to what Richard issaying.)

Where? What salvation? There is no salvation. Im not sure

what you mean by salvation but for some people salvation is the

Bentley of the spiritual arts.

(The speaker tries to clarify what she means.) When I meditate,

sometimes I get into a state of consciousness where I feel liberated

and thats when I feel I have had a taste of it.

But liberation is not a state. It isnt something that I can ever

feel. We could say that liberation is simply what is left when I

am not there anymore. We could equally say that everything is

liberation in any case, whether I am there or not.

However, I do have a past history of meditation, a very long

past history. Meditation can bring many wonderful experiences.

I would even say that it can be incredibly helpful to some people

in resolving psychological and emotional problems. In fact it

was incredibly helpful to me as a person.

I have also met people who hated meditation, who felt thatit never did anything for them. But whether we meditate or

whether we dont meditate, although those experiences can be

very profound, they nevertheless have nothing to do with what

we are talking about tonight. They have nothing to do with the


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disappearance of the person. We may meditate and the person

may drop away or not drop away. We may not meditate and the

person may drop away or not drop away.What we are talking about tonight has nothing to do with

any of the stories that the mind tells about cause and effect and

it has nothing to do with anything that we think that we are

doing. It has to do only with the dropping away of any sense

that there is a me. As the sense of me is a false sense, it cannot

make itself disappear. It cannot disappear itself. The false self

cannot realise reality.(Richard suddenly laughs heartily.) I have just realised that I

have no idea whether Carl is saying anything like what I am say-

ing. (Laughter) (To Carl) Perhaps you are talking about Marxist

philosophy.

So what you are describing as liberation is in effect totally independ-

ent of all circumstances.(It is one of the philosophically inclined

young men who has spoken.)

Yes, that is a good way of putting it. Cause and effect dont

apply here but the mind resists that idea intensely. The mind

both resists it and resents it because the mind is always trying

to work everything out, trying to lead us to some goal, and that

requires the operation of cause and effect. Of course in much

of life, cause and effect seem to work.

(The same young man) When the person drops away, does that feel

as if any identification with the body ceases? Because separation

comes from feeling imprisoned in the body.

There can be a complete dropping away of the sense of the per-

son, and of any sense of identification with the body as well.

Then what often happens is that the sense of being a separate

individual comes back, leaving a very disappointed and puzzled


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person who knows that something profound has happened.

They want to get back to it, yet they arent able to do anything

about that.This temporary dropping away of the person is sometimes

referred to as awakening.

Later, there can be another dropping away, a total disap-

pearance of the person. After some time what often happens is

that the sense of a physical location comes back, but the sense of

constriction or imprisonment that a person experiences disap-

pears. After that, the sense of physical location may hang aboutor not. Usually it does to some extent, but it is not important.

It doesnt matter.

This second disappearance, when the person does not

return, is sometimes referred to as liberation.

By the way, it doesnt have to happen like this. There dont

have to be two specific events like this. There can just be a

gradual gliding into seeing liberation.

You dont use the word God. You use the metaphor of the waves

and the ocean and the rowing boat. Can you say more about this

metaphor?

When liberation is seen, when the person has dropped away,

then the stillness and silence of the depths of the ocean become

obvious. The rowing boat of everyday life is still there and it

might still be rocking around, but there is also an awareness of

the stillness and the silence of the ocean.

When I say that the rowing boat is still there, I mean that

life goes on. Activity goes on. Stuff goes on happening. This is

the case unless liberation coincides with physical death.

Why did we drop out of unity and become enmeshed in duality?

Why do we have to suffer? Why do we have to go through all this to

get to where we want to go? (The questioner is genuinely puzzled.)


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There is more than one question there. Firstly, we are not going

anywhere or through anything.

All questions come from the mind, but Why questionshave a particular hold on the mind. The clearest answer I can

give is that there is no Why. What happens simply happens.

But lets say a bit more, while acknowledging the dangers of

asking Why questions.

We could say that oneness, non-duality, nothing, no-thing

simply delights in this stuff that is happening. In the traditional

descriptions in Advaita Vedanta, the word which is sometimesused to describe this is lila. We could translate lila as play,

game or sport. Just as we like reading novels and watching

plays and films, we could say that oneness likes this entertain-

ment.

Oneness is playful. This is the cosmic entertainment. This

is the play of oneness.

I realise that I have avoided your question about suffering. It

is up to you whether you want to come back to it. Have another

go at it if you like.

(With a smile) We dont need to do that.

O.k. (Richard smiles, perhaps with relief at not having to talk about

suffering).We will leave suffering for now.

(But someone else in the audience refuses to let suffering go. After

all, it is a very juicy topic. So they jump in quickly.) No, lets go

back to it. No matter what kind of God is dreaming this up, lila

must be a very perverse game ...

Of course, yes.

a game played by a God who cant be normal himself.


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Well, I didnt bring God into this.

I mean God, consciousness or whatever power is playing thisgame.

Saying that it is a power playing this game is a very dualistic

phrase, isnt it? What power? It is you playing this game. You are

the one to blame. But if you want to address suffering directly,

we can do that.

(There is a murmuring consultation in the audience and they

decide to consent to addressing suffering directly.)

We wont get anywhere with it. No one ever has. But doomed

to failure though we are, we can have a try. (Richard speaks

somewhat ironically.) For thousands of years people have tried to

address whether there is any reason for suffering. Do you really

think we are going to be able to add anything to all of that great

philosophising tonight?

Of course, just as with many other questions, it is natural

for the mind to ask questions about suffering. As I say in this

very good book here, which I strongly recommend (Richard

holds up his own book to laughter and applause from the audi-

ence), ultimately all the many questions about suffering come

down to only three. Perhaps I should say that I havent been

able to think of another one. But tonight may be the night when

somebody finally thinks of a fourth question about suffering.

(Someone in the audience starts to get impatient at what they sus-

pect may be prevarication and asks rather insistently) So what arethese three questions?

(Richard faces this impatience with a mischievous grin) Perhaps I

will say what they are, perhaps I wont. Actually they are pretty


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obvious. You all know them yourselves and they also all have

very obvious answers for the mind.

The first question is What can I do about my own suffer-ing? We have already talked about some of the things we can do

to reduce our own suffering. We have talked about meditation,

for example. It is obvious that there are many different things

that we can do to alleviate our own suffering, if that is what we

are interested in doing. Of course we will never eliminate the

ultimate cause of our suffering, because the ultimate cause of

our suffering is me, the sense of I.We can meditate, we can have some psychotherapy, we can

take exercise, we can clean up our diet.

(In a flurry of misunderstanding, Carl asks Richard in English)

Did you mean clean up at home? What are you getting at with

diet?

I said Clean up our diet. Eat healthy food. I said nothing about

vacuuming the house. (Roars of laughter from the audience)

Seeing what we can do if we want to have a more comfort-

able life and reduce our personal suffering isnt rocket science.

It is amazing that in the bookshops so many hundreds of book-

shelves are groaning with tons of self-help books. I am sure that

each of us in this room could write our own self-help book. Go

to see my publisher (Richard indicates Carl). I am sure he will

throw them onto the market for you. (Hilarity in the audience.)

If this was a different kind of meeting, everybody could have

a pen and some paper and I bet that within a few minutes we

could sketch out a self-help book which would rival all the oth-

ers, like The Secretfor example.There is a lot that could go into this kind of book. (Rich-

ard starts to list some of the things that could be included with a

mischievous air.) For example, do something altruistic, be nice

to people. (There is laughter from the audience at this.) Give


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meaning to your life by getting yourself some kind of project.

Spend time in green places by which I dont mean repaint your

bathroom (much laughter). We know all of this intuitively, andas neuroscience makes more and more advances it is proved

scientifically as well. It is not abstract or wishy-washy or pink-

and-fluffy to say If you want to feel better, go and take a walk

in the park. We know that if we take a walk in the park it will

produce different enzymes, it will produce endorphins and our

brain-wave function will change to a healthier pattern.

That is just one of the three questions dealt with: Whatcan I do to alleviate my own suffering? We have got two more

questions still to go.

(Someone in the audience is not clear about whether to take this

seriously or not.) Youre kind of serious about what youre saying,

although youre kind of joking as well, right?

Serious about what?

What you just said about what we could do, like going to the park.

Yes, of course I am serious. Try it. Or get yourself a pet. That

will have similar effects. It has proven effects on brain-wave

function. Why do you think that people who keep cats or dogs

live longer? It is good for you to care for another living being. In

addition cats calm you and dogs make you take exercise.

The second question about suffering is How can I alleviate

the suffering of other people?

I am not even going to give you a list of what you can do

about this one, because it is so obvious. If we are interested inalleviating the suffering of others, there are lots of things that

we can do. Some of them are quite simple and you could start

them this very evening.

The third question about suffering, and by far the most


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intractable, is What is the meaning of suffering? That is the

one that most of the philosophical and religious books get writ-

ten about. If the mind thinks that this is a sensible questionto pose and wants an answer that will satisfy it, then the most

intelligent thing to do is to choose a religion or one of the spir-

itual stories. There is a vast array to pick from, but I suggest

that underneath all their apparent complexity, they are really

very simple.

Basically, all the religions and spiritual stories are able to

give you only two different explanations of suffering. One isthat God moves in mysterious ways and we cannot understand

his motives. Perhaps we shouldnt even ask questions about his

motives. This explanation often involves the idea that suffering

is good for us in some way or other.

The other explanation of suffering involves the story of

karma. In the case of karma, the central idea is that we have

brought suffering on ourself, either as a punishment or as a

necessary learning experience.

Depending on the kind of personality that we have, we

might be attracted to one or other of these explanations for

suffering, to one or other of these ancient stories. But what I

am saying today is that perhaps it may be possible to notice that

they are just stories.

Here we are. This is it. This is known (Richard pats the

table). This is known (he touches the wall). This too is known

(he picks up the flower again). The rest is baseless speculation.

(Interjection from the audience) Dont touch the flower too much!

Its fragile! (Laughter)

And that is also known. (Richard puts the flower back in its vase.)

Stories about karma are exactly that. They are stories, sto-

ries that we tell in this, in presence. They are real. They are

real stories and sometimes they satisfy the mind. But what I


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am talking about here has nothing to do with satisfying the

mind. The mind will never be satisfied with this. The mind will

never be satisfied with nothing. You may have already noticedon many occasions that if you set up an argument between the

mind and nothing, the mind will always win.

I said earlier in this talk that I used to know a lot but now

I know very little and I hope that one day I will know nothing

at all. (Pausing, as if in deep thought) I said that as a kind of joke

but I also meant it.

(Richard stresses the next paragraph quite heavily.) Thesestories, such as I am suffering because of my karma, or even

better My enemy will suffer because of his karma (Richard

stays very serious, in spite of laughter from the audience) or God

is sending me suffering to test me are examples of what we

think we know. But when the person falls away, it takes all

these stories with it and it doesnt replace them with anything.

Instead of these stories, there is emptiness.

(Mischievously) Liberation is hell. Really. It doesnt give you

anything back. It simply takes these stories away. You could say

that this leaves freedom or you could say that it leaves hell. It

leaves complete anarchy, anyway, when all the stories disap-

pear.(Impishly) Liberation is the ultimate anarchy.

(Someone in the audience holds up a magazine.) I have an article

here. Its written by yourself.

I recognize the photo. What do I say? Remind me.

As a description of non-duality, you say that its nothing but the

divine.

I am happy that I said that, because of course there is nothing except

the divine. Everything is equally divine. If all the stories drop away

then how can anything be more divine than anything else?


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How can anything be less divine or more divine than this

glass of water? How can anything be more spiritual or less

spiritual than anything else? More divine, less divine. Morespiritual, less spiritual. That is duality. That is separation. It is

separation into divine and non-divine, into spiritual and non-

spiritual. These concepts can only mean something in the world

of duality.

(Richard speaks as if he wants to provoke the audience.) In

liberation we have complete anarchy. This makes nonsense of

all beliefs, and I do mean all beliefs, no matter whether theyare spiritual or non-spiritual. Now Im meditating so Im being

spiritual. Now Im in a bar so Im not being spiritual. (Richard

is surprisingly engaged with this point and emphatic.) Its complete

nonsense. (Now hes demonstrably amused by the next point.) Its

oneness meditating. Its oneness drinking in a bar.

(Richard becomes very serious again.) This excludes nothing.

As soon as you exclude something, you have duality. You have

oneness over here and something else which you have excluded

from it over there. (Now he speaks resignedly, yet in a relaxed

way.) But the mind cannot make sense of this. There will

always be something that the mind dislikes or finds distasteful.

As far as the mind is concerned, whatever it dislikes should be

excluded from oneness.

So according to what youre saying, all the stories in which we find

ourselves are also part of unity?

Yes, of course.

What I often try to do is to get out of the story or to find a betterstory. Or I try to manifest a better story, as recommended in books

like The SecretorTheCosmic Ordering Service.

(The audience roars with laughter but Richard stays quite serious.)


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This is what the person always tends to do because, as I said

earlier, the person is always dissatisfied with this. But what I

am talking about has nothing to do with trying to change this,because when the person is not there, this is already seen to be

perfect. So why would there be any impulse to phone up the

cosmic ordering service?

What Im puzzled by is this. When those authors say that you have

to order what you want, that you have to manifest what you want,

then what they are saying is also part of unity.

Yes, of course. It is unity expressing itself as a certain amount of

delusion. Delusion is just as divine as everything else.

Were all enlightened, but we dont know it?

I would not say that we are all enlightened. I would say that no

one is enlightened. There is no such thing as an enlightened per-

son, because liberation is only seen when the person is not there.

The seeing of liberation is completely impersonal. Libera-

tion may be seen here (Richard points in his own direction), but

it has nothing to do with me.

We tend to make a connection between the seeing of libera-

tion and the person who is reporting on it. Then we look for

something special in that person and eventually of course we

will be disappointed. If we think liberation has anything to do

with the person reporting on it, we will always feel let down

when we discover that they are quite ordinary, in fact just like

everybody else.

(Someone in the audience says in a strongly insistent way) But

you meditated for thirty years and then there were two events and

everything changed

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