Donohue Harney Transcript

7/31/2019 Donohue Harney Transcript

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Nick Donohue Interview for The New England Journal of Higher Education

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NICK DONOHUE INTERVIEW FOR THE NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION

Q: Hello. Im John Harney. Im the Executive Editor ofThe New England Journal of Higher

Education. Im here today with Nick Donohue, whos been President and CEO of the

Nellie Mae Education Foundation since late 2006. This past year, Nick and his colleagues

have been reframing the Foundations strategic focus for the next four years and beyond.

Nick, in a nutshell, what is the Foundations new focus?

A: John, a couple of years ago, the board began to look at our past and current performance,

and they asked themselves some really good questions. What difference were we

making? How much of a difference were we making? And for whom were we making

that kind of difference? And they asked us to look into that question and really reflect onwhere we had been in the past six or seven years as a foundation. We took a look, and we

discovered some interesting things. We looked at the context in the world around us,

and we realized that issues of global competition had really changed things for schooling.

Where in the past it was OK to have a subset of learners really achieve and excel and

move on to, really, the gold standard, which is postsecondary success, that if in our

society, were serious about remaining competitive, we needed a lot more learners

achieving those levels of skills and knowledge: that those were the new currency for

success.

We looked around at issues of not just more learners learning, but more learners learning

more; that the way we had in our education systems established the outcomes, the

standards, if you will, for performance, they really were focused on the basics, somewhat

due to federal policies, somewhat due to the natural evolution of schooling. But that it

was the combination of those two challenges more learners needing to succeed and

more learners needing to succeed at higher and more complex levels that really led us to

rethink our approach.


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So when we started to think, well, what would you do to accommodate achievement in

that kind of context? What would it look like? Is it really enough to continue to support

the improvement in school as we know it? We came to a different conclusion. Through a

rigorous process, we looked at the data, the information, and we came to the conclusion

that it really wasnt about [simply] making the classroom structure that we know today

better and working better.

The notion we came up with was student-centered learning opportunities opportunities

that put learners really at the center of the design, where we explore different ways of

engaging students, different places where students learn, different agents of learning,

different people they connect with to help them achieve skills and knowledge where

we really make the learning the constant, and make time and agency and location the

variable. Because right now in school; time, location, and agency are the constants and

learnings the variable. And wed like to turn that around.

We think this is a solution, in part, to issues around equity. There are lots of reasons why

we have differential levels of achievement. But the outcome levels are so low, especially

for those who are low-income, low-income of color, underserved populations in our

communities across the region, that we think one of the root causes is the actual design

of the learning environment. And the way that people of all different kinds need to adapt

to a system that is really based on one principle, which is one size fits all.

And that doesnt make any sense in todays world, especially if you incorporate the

notion that technology has just turned on its head the notion of information flow.

Classroom structures of the past were designed so that a teacher in front of the class

could convey and parcel out information through textbooks and lecture, and some

experience. And now, of course, the information is a fire hydrant, gushing out all over us.The question is, how do you organize schooling and learning opportunities to take

advantage of that flow of information, take advantage of the differences learners bring,

to build on their needs and their interests, and to really get more creative and bring our

schooling system up into the 21st

century?

So student-centered learning is what we call it. Its about calling into question the

variables, as I said, of when learning happens, where learning happens, who are the

agents, if you will. We think theres room to expand those notions. Everyone has a

variety of adults who are important, who help them learn. Well, lets make that part of

how we organize for school. Lets integrate technology in real ways, and lets be carefulabout how we assess learning and how we hold ourselves accountable, make sure we

keep our eyes on the right things.


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Q: Can you offer an example of how a student-centered learning model would bring in other

agents?

A: A lot of communities have internship [and] community-service learning activities, and

these are rich, powerful experiences. In fact, when you ask people to describe thepowerful learning experiences they have had in their lives, and you allow them to

consider school opportunities and other opportunities, they will frequently talk about the

out-of-school, if you will, or unofficial relationships they had that led to learning. So

internships, community-service opportunities, life experience -were very interested in

understanding better how to assess the learning people get in a wide variety of arenas.

So these processes internships and service-learning opportunities are rich. Not

enough of them are actually for credit. People are learning skills and knowledge in these

arenas that they should get credit for.

Q: And youve referred to how the internships can be tied back to the academics. Is there a

specific role for that in the student-centered model?

A: I think its essential to varying degrees. We have some actual experience organizing

events, where there are learners who were on the brink of dropping out, and they

needed one more civics course or credit to get their high school graduation. And they

participated in really complex and interesting analyses of community-based issues related

to public water supply, voting rights, a myriad of things that are real-world opportunities.

And they produced documents, they gave presentations, they studied, they researched,

they analyzed, they did all the things that our schools purport to be about. And those

experiences and skills and knowledge were vetted by professional teachers. And those

learners get credit for those opportunities. That kind of situation, more and more, oughtto be available to people.

Lots of issues [are] related to itquality control, making sure theyre rigorous; making

sure its not just the easy secondary route, where people kind of recover some credit in a

less rigorous way. But we think it really jibes with where we are in the world, because we

want our young people to function in a high-functioning way in real-world settings, and

our employers and our community leaders tell us we definitely need more of that.

Q: Does the teaching establishment seem receptive to these kinds of ideas that in a sense

are turning the old ideas of schooling on their head?

A: Absolutely. I think that its a breath of fresh air for, I think, most teachers. Teachers

enter teaching because they want to engage young people, help them learn, and have a

fulfilling experience for themselves while they do it. There are many who tell us theyre

really eager to exercise this option, because it liberates, if you will, the expertise and the

aspirations they brought. They want to do some interesting things. And there will


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always be a place for classroom lecture and engagement, and some very traditional

methods. Were not saying abandon those completely.

Q: What about time and location?

A: When it comes to time and location, weve really learned a lot in the past couple of years.Our work around after-school and out-of-school time, our work in adult learning, our

work in a whole range of areas has been about trying to organize high-quality academic

experiences for learners when theyre not in school. Its a very simple notion: that school

is a place where people learn, and should learn; and they learn and engage and grow

outside of school and outside of the school hours as well. So anyone whos been on a

sports team, or had a job or studies on their own, knows what its like to accrue

information and knowledge. Everybody has a story of the young person whos doing

pretty well in school, but who excels in this curricular activity around art or technology, or

something theyre self-motivated about.

And so while staying inside of the box of making sure that we focus on the skills and

knowledge people need to succeed because we do support a standards-based approach

to this that there are things people really need to learn that the places and times that

they can learn these things just vary. It does not all happen between 8:00 and 2:00 or

9:00 and 3:00, or some schools, 7:30 and 1:00. I mean, learning does not stop when the

bell rings and the kids walk out on the street. There are lots of opportunities. We want

to help people make those part of what counts for learning in a high-quality, rigorous

way.

Q: Is there an issue in terms of the out-of-school opportunities being as inequitable as school

has been for some groups of kids? If youre relying on visits to museums and things likethat in out-of-school time, doesnt that vary with family income and preparation, that sort

of thing?

A: Absolutely. And thats part of why normalizing these kinds of opportunities as part of our

normal educational opportunities, our public educational opportunities, is so important.

More well-to-do people have better opportunities to learn. We dont capture that

learning. But they have the opportunities. You can never do this just based on peoples

natural, available opportunities that they have as families. That would not address the

issues of equity, which are at the core of our purpose. Were about providing greater

equity of opportunity. So those opportunities were suggesting ought to be lined up withthings that work for the higher achievers.

So for example, we know that low-income children lose more learning in the summer,

and that higher-income children actually sustain and gain learning in the summer. Well,

we know why that is: the richer activities, more time with adults, all the things that you

might think would lead to higher achievement. How do you make those part of a school

experience?


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So one of the implications for student-centered learning is not just using time differently,

but thinking about the school year differently. We dont think that, to have an equitable

system of any kind, you can continue to have a gap thats two or three months long

where youre risking the learning that happened in the last part of the last school year,

and youre taking up the beginning of the next school year. Basing our school calendar onan agrarian calendar, which is at its roots we wonder if the time has come to reconsider

that.

Q: In terms of assessments, how do you measure whether it would be more equitable with

these programs if thats part of the student-centered model?

A: Well, we support really rigorous assessment and accountability. We think, especially for

reasons of equity and just basic quality, that you need to stay on top of whether youre

delivering the goods for learners. So we want to be clear about that. Assessment and

accountability are important features of the system we envision, and the one we talk

about and want to support. No Child Left Behind [had]lots of issues with it, one thing it

did is it shined a light on the differential outcomes. There will always be differences in

learning. Not everybody has to have the exact same outcome. But the notion that you

can equalize that is very critical to us. We think holding education, ourselves, and all the

players in education accountable is critical.

So to do that, you have to assess student results. Have to gather information about

whether learners are learning what you want them to learn. Now, testing has gotten a

bad name lately, because what we mean by testing now is a very rigid, very narrow

experience that tests in very narrow ways some basic skills. Its not robust enough,its

not varied enough, and it doesnt gather enough different kinds of evidence aboutstudent learning.

You want to know if somebody can add, you can give them a set of math problems. You

want to know if they can write, you can give them something to write. You want to know

if they can think or problem-solve, youve got to give them a problem to solve. So we

believe that assessments need to involve more evidence, more performance, if you will,

more demonstrationopportunities for students to show in varied ways what they can

do. You want someone to be good at teamwork, put them in a setting where they got to

work with other people and see how well they do. You want to assess whether people

can present themselves publicly, then give them a chance to present themselves publicly.

And there are a myriad of ways that have been worked on for years of being able to

measure these kinds of things in thoughtful, rigorous ways that are both reliable and

valid, which are two assessment terms. Reliable means you have to get the same

estimation of performance no matter who is doing the judgment, and valid means that

the assessment opportunity actually measures what you want to know about. And there

are ways to do those more creative assessment processes as part of a varied system. So


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Q: And at lower levels, theres the example of the Boston Arts Academy that has the artists

come in, basically, and watch performances and productions.

A: Yeah. Boston Day and Evening has a competency-based piece in Boston. (So does) Parker

Academy in Worcester. There are schools in every state in the region that are

experimenting with this approach, and doing well with it.

Q: Stepping back a little bit, youve spoken about standards a few times. What are some of

the things that we think students do have to know to succeed, whether in work or higher

education?

A: It starts with some very basic, familiar things. Literacy: you need to be able to read and

write. Numeracy: youve got to be able to work numbers in todays society. Knowing

something about history, we do learn from the past, and weve taken it for granted lately.

Some social science is critical. Understanding the scientific process is a critical dimension

of what we need to do. Understanding some of what people would call higher-end

cognitive skills around analysis, creative thinking, problem-solving these kinds of things

that employers have been clamoring for, for the past decade, [as they] have seen the

coming of a global economy. And they know, to be competitive, we need people who can

think, work on teams, solve the problem that they dont know about today, communicate

well with their colleagues and others, who have a sense of purpose, who have a

connection to the civic life,another area we think is critical. But rooted, again, in a

really incredibly strong and important deep grasp of some of what people would call basic

skills, because those are still critically important.

Q: And you made the point in the piece that you recently wrote for The New England Journal

of Higher Education about the fact that higher education does encourage this student-centered learning in a lot of instances. So why is there that chasm between K-12 and

higher education in terms of personalizing the experience?

A: One of the ways we look at it is that higher education has had a primary spot in our

culture in terms of currency and quality. So were proud in this country of having a high-

end higher education system. And, admittedly, it was really an opportunity that only a

few got to take full advantage of, because of access in terms of money, resources,

selectivity. Theres still a premium put on being elite and selective. Were coming around

in higher ed. to understand that we need more opportunity. Community colleges day

has come in terms of being seen as really a viable opportunity, where quality and rigorand practicality can be addressed.

On the K-12 side, we have had a right emphasis on equity and universal access and

engagement. And weits kind of like the train tracks between France and Spain you

used to have the place where youd have to get off, and thered be one gauge on one side

and one gauge on the other. And we worked ourselves into that situation. Had some

different priorities at the lower end, different priorities at the upper end, and now were


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trying to reconcile things. Our focus is, what do we do about it? And we think the

opportunity is really working both ends of that divide. Our focus for the future is going to

be much more on the sort of middle school/high school end of things. We hope, over

timeand wed like to support a sort of a secondary agenda to help our higher ed

friends think about, how do you take what youve learned about personalizing or student-

centered approaches in higher ed, and how do you help inform whats going on at the K-12 end of things?

So that will have implications for admission processes, itll mean rethinking the

ACCUPLACER in terms of the only way to measure whether a students ready, because

that reinforces the basic skills piece. And itll be, I think, a really interesting and rich

conversation, because higher ed really is leading the conversation recently, around

innovative designs, partly because its a more market-based industry, and theyve got to

respond, because people are coming around saying, We need this, I want this. And

theyre responding, and K-12 ought to be able to do the same.

Q: And if higher ed could help K-12 with that, theyd be helping themselves in terms of their

enrollment being stronger or their pools being stronger, I would think.

A: We think so.

Q: How does the new vision balance school needs with district needs with state needs with

federal needs, such as No Child Left Behind, and do they reinforce each other?

A: Absolutely. They do reinforce each other. And we think that its critical to work on a

number of those levels in concert at the same time. Thats why we have an integrated

approach to our work.

And thats why were involved in national discussions to help sort of shape and support

an evolution of assessment and policies at the federal level, because they really do define

what the states do, and in a trickle-down way, what the districts do and what the local

folks do. Theres nobody in our country now who doesnt know the enormous test

pressure and the narrow test pressure that our classroom teachers are under. Its evident

to almost everybody, including our learners. And we have an opportunity to rebalance

that in a way that affects local practice, district practice, state, and federal practice. So

they are connected in that way, and thats one example of how were trying to work on a

number of different fronts to address that connected issue.

Q: The Foundations organizational approaches of practice, policy, and public understanding

seem to have evolved and been emphasized with this new focus. Can you speak to that?

A: Weve long been invested in trying to develop programs, or models, if you will, of

practice, about how you work with young people in different settings, as I said, adult

learning, after school, higher ed. Model development and knowing how to do the thing


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youre talking about is critical. Its easy to talk about. Youve got to demonstrate it, show

it, and make it better. So were into model development, or supporting good practices.

If you want to change the system more significantly, and not make these programs just

add-ons or alternatives for those who the systems failed, then youve got to start talking

about policy, got to start talking about the rules that define schooling. So some of thethings we talked about before the Carnegie units for graduation, time requirements for

school, these things that really build the box that school is today you need to

reconsider those, or youll end up only having these innovations occur in spaces where

they can get away with it. And thats not what were about. Were about helping the

system really think about a different way forward as a core facet of what is done, not as

an alternative.

The problem is that good ideas done well dont always push a system forward. So for

other reasons around systems, dynamics, change, and sociology, whatever the

explanation is, big historical systems are hard to change. Higher ed. has gone through

this, K-12, healthcare, transportationthese big systems are hard to change. Theyre

well-entrenched.

So in order to move and make the best out of the models or practices, and to really push

the policies forward, we think that its necessary to promote public demand. So part of

our work will be to rebalance the conversation and support young people, parents,

teachers, community members, and people inside the educational establishment and

institutions to promote change, but with a real emphasis on trying to grow an expectation

that there might be a better way to do things that we dont have to just improve the

situation were in, maybe we can change the situation.

Q: You say you want to grow student-centered experiences into a core facet of education,

rather than simply an alternative or an add-on. You also say you want to improve

outcomes for underserved students, which would be in keeping with the Foundations

history. Can both be accommodated together?

A: We think that one is really a means to the other. We think that, if you really are serious

about meeting the needs of underserved learners, then its time to start thinking about

student-centered approaches to learning as at least a significant core feature. We say it

that way because these kinds of approaches are marginalized. Theyre used after failure.

Theyre used successfully after failure. There are dozens of programs that have startlingresults with dropouts and kids who the system has failed. Why not use the intelligence,

experience, and knowledge that these programs have gained in terms of how to beat the

odds, and make it a preemptive opportunity before failure? It can be done cost-

effectively, it can be done rigorously, and we treat it like an alternative, rather than what

it ought to be, which is a core facet of schooling and how its defined.


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Q: What youre promoting sounds so logical and natural in some ways. So why have these

solutions not taken hold at this point? And why do you think the Foundation can be the

one organization to serve as the catalyst for this type of change?

A: Habits are hard to change. Traditional approaches are hard to change. We do a lot of

things in ways that we could do better. In this case, education is so important at this timein our societys history that weve got to do something better. And we know what to do.

So we think theres a new opportunity to push through the status quo and really

antiquated approaches to organizing a really critical experience, which is education.

We dont think we can do this alone. Our analysis of the context, our analysis of the field,

our look back at ed reform have all told us that partnership and joint purpose are critical.

Weve found people around the country and around the region who are enlisted in this

kind of effort, who are already working on the same thing. Were discovering that

emerging field of student-centered education, because it is an emerging field. Even with

that, we know that the limits of that partnership are dependent on a lot of things that

happen outside of our control. So were counting on the currents, socially, of increased

attention to equity persisting, the pressure of a changing economy demanding higher

skills, the continued explosion of technology promoting more personal engagements with

information, because thats on such a steep curve, its just unimaginable. Its about direct

and clear and focused partnerships. Its about being part of a bigger community of

people working on the same thing. And its about a hope that some other things fall in

place along the way and continue.

And were going to do the best we can, because our mission is about supporting the

futures of the learners in our region, and making sure that everyone has an opportunity

to succeed, and a really fair opportunity to succeed.

Q: Thank you for your time, Nick, and good luck with the initiative.

M: Copyright 2010, Nellie Mae Education Foundation.

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